UK Politics Thread

[Skybird]

Teething problems versus structural problems.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/12/business/brexit-trade-100-days/index.html

Does not look encouraging so far. Seems the "deal" has ignored too many problems that they could not fix.

I have tried again to place an order for Ubichinol from the UK, just a few days after my last report on the issue. And since then I am waiting again. I contacted themn, and email contact is fast as ever, and they said the parcel ha dlived the house and the British customs procedure, trackings show it to be stuck somewhere in the EU part of the procedures, and the EU not confirm the British paper work, thats how I understood their explanation. Practically the same problem like the first time.

The shop I ordered from the time before, and whose order was cancelled, apparently is no longer available for delivery to the EU, apparently.

I again have the impression that it is the EU side'S faiult delaying it all here. They did not process the first delivery, and it seems they also do not process this one one. In both cases British mail and customs have done their part, tracking the parcel says.

One time might happen. Two times can be bad coincidence. But three times is hostile sabotage.

I ordered from the Netherlands today. For almost three times the price. :arrgh!:

[mapuc]

Could UK's Brexit lead to what I would call

The rise and fall of the Union Jack

This thought popped up, when I read Jims post ^^

Markus

[Jimbuna]

One time might happen. Two times can be bad coincidence. But three times is hostile sabotage.



Precisely!! :yep:

[Catfish]

No problems yet with delivery from the UK, a windshield that was said to have been sent to us, is still happily lying in a depot in England.

Business as usual lately, and welcome to brexit.

[Moonlight]

No problems yet with delivery from the UK, a windshield that was said to have been sent to us, is still happily lying in a depot in England.

Business as usual lately, and welcome to brexit.

You just can't bloody help yourself can you Catfish, it's always the little Englanders who are at fault and not the oh so perfect boneheads of the EU, put another record on matey because the one you're playing has bleeding worn out. :haha:

[Catfish]

You just can't bloody help yourself can you Catfish ... :haha:
Exactly right, i will never get tired of pointing out the bs that brexit is, in my humblest of opinions :)

[mapuc]

You just can't bloody help yourself can you Catfish, it's always the little Englanders who are at fault and not the oh so perfect boneheads of the EU, put another record on matey because the one you're playing has bleeding worn out. :haha:

Aha Royal Mail is also beginning with this new service-where you pay them to get the right to pick up your stuff at the store.

Markus

[Skybird]

On Ireland again:

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/13/uk/northern-ireland-disorder-youth-gbr-intl-cmd/index.html

He explained that while the Good Friday Agreement brought the armed conflict to an end, it didn't change how people there coexist.
"We never got to grips with the fundamental building blocks of how to create a new society where people -- Catholics and Protestants -- can live together, or how you create a society where we can talk about what happened from 1969 to 1998," Byrne told CNN.

The peace project is "so fragile, it's built on sand," he added, explaining that it is neither mature enough nor embedded into society enough to deal with the pressures that Brexit, the Northern Ireland protocol, or a global pandemic present.

My reasoning.

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EVGZBW3roU

[Skybird]

Things are a bit like it was expected, but not as bad as the EU has hoped.

It has been 100 days since the British left the EU on January 1st, and it has been more than four and a half years since the referendum that initiated the exit. Time to take stock. In which areas have the terrible fears come true, in which were they exaggerated in advance - and how will things go from here?

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://www.focus.de/finanzen/boerse/konjunktur/erste-zwischenbilanz-des-eu-austritts-100-tage-brexit-vier-befuerchtungen-haben-sich-bewahrheitet_id_13182103.html

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rmi3_Ju0gB8

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6KNGHwjn4Y

[Catfish]

What will irish or scottish people think about those videos? Do brexiters think they will win anyone to their side and against the EU with it, or is it just to generally increase hate and diversion in the UK :hmmm:


edit: just saw where Jim's last video is from: https://www.repglobal.net/

"Republicans global", and when you look for the channel info:
"UK NO. 1" "REP WAVE REPGLOBAL.NET"
https://www.youtube.com/c/REPGlobal/about
Real server location seems is in India (Luân Đôn), but initiated by Russia whatever they write who is responsible.
Or maybe Trump :har: https://www.zoominfo.com/c/repglobal-content/345010403, here it is listed as being in Connecticut, and
"Employees: 5
Revenue: $974,000"
Website: www.repglobal.net (http://www.repglobal.net)
Contact: adrepglobal@gmail.com
Location: UK [edit: No. Or maybe. So India? Russia? UK? US?]
"Fishy" doesn't quite cover it, although baiting is included :03:

If you click on "About" on the site, this pops up:

"A Big Beautiful News Site. I have to say, we did a great, great job. Everybody’s talking about it. Nobody thought it was possible to build a Site like this.
It’s never been done before, but we got the job done and we did a tremendous job. That I can tell you. Everyone is now saying, its the best news site ever built, in the whole world. That’s just what I had heard.
You are gonna love it, It’s going to be amazing."

"MADNESS!" indeed, sounds familiar :rotfl2::rotfl2:

[Catfish]

From the same "news" channel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czdp7IOBin0

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLJWItxOPG8

[Catfish]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIQ6UV2onyI

[mapuc]

^ Something tells me you would get more out of watching your 10 hours video than watching all the other video clip in this thread.

Please correct if I'm wrong

Markus

[Jimbuna]

SNP manifesto: A vote for SNP will give Nicola Sturgeon 'permission' for indyref2

Nicola Sturgeon has said that a “simple majority” of pro-independence MSPs in the Holyrood election would give her “permission” to hold a second independence referendum.

Launching her party manifesto, the First Minister said her intention was that a second vote would be held in 2023, if the Covid crisis is over, and if Scots vote yes the next Scottish Parliament elections “would be for the first independent government”.

Ms Sturgeon said there was “no moral or democratic justification” for Boris Johnson to block a referendum, with the manifesto stating that if the Prime Minister continues to refuse a section 30 order, the SNP would pass a Referendum Bill at Holyrood and fight the UK Government in the courts.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-manifesto-a-vote-for-snp-will-give-nicola-sturgeon-permission-for-indyref2-3202719

[Jimbuna]

Brexit has given the UK back its independence and boosted innovation, inventor Sir James Dyson has said.

"We've got our freedom, we can make trade agreements with other countries outside Europe [and] we can employ people from all around the world," Sir James told the BBC.

The latest statistics for February show UK exports to the EU remain below the same level last year.

He also defended moving Dyson's global headquarters to Singapore in 2019.

At the time, the pro-Brexit entrepreneur was accused of "hypocrisy", after claiming the UK would gain more from leaving the EU than it would lose.

"We're a British company - I've put a lot into this country," he said.

"I can't make things here and bring over all the components from the Far East here, assemble them here and then send them back to the Far East. That just doesn't work."

The interview came as Dyson announced plans to create 200 new jobs at its research facilities in Malmesbury and Hullavington, Wiltshire.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56741000

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZqzAuN-ukY

[Catfish]

^ lol now here's A Different Bias: Not the british yellow press.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUzMbn6XqUw

[Skybird]

The EU parliament ends its blockade and will let the EU-UK Brexit treaty pass although it accuses London of violating the clauses regarding NI.
Time is running out, end of April the preliminary use of the treaty would end, and without ratification the agreement would be nill and void and lead to a hard Brexit.

[Jimbuna]

Or as others have put it :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqNu_Kf2wsk

[Catfish]

Too bad. For everyone i might say.. if it is true anyway.
But "Welcome back to "Prosperous UK" the best daily news channel for everyone." :03:

And another "bias":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsPtd0a0DB0

[Catfish]

Scottish independence?

"In the year 1707 "It looked like a sensible financial decision" to do trade with England
"Some Scottish looked south to the border and thought that they would be good to have a relationship with this much more powerful richer nation with its bigger market"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBHZiXUDV6A

[Jimbuna]

Matters could turn nasty soon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hRbUqN-UY0

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m89_AcBWCCs

[Catfish]

THREATEN! EU SURRENDERS! :haha:

I guess not, but what do i know what they do or think in England.
https://apnews.com/article/brexit-europe-global-trade-david-frost-northern-ireland-0c1abad91e2b40ffcbd797eb296f9475


https://i.imgur.com/UfDQcZal.png


And then this:
https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/french-fishermen-block-british-lorries-carrying-uk-landed-fish-2021-04-22/

[Catfish]

Why should the EU have all the fun?

"‘The uncomfortable chair’: Australians shocked by insulting British trade tactics" (https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/the-uncomfortable-chair-australians-shocked-by-bizarre-british-insulting-trade-tactics-20210421-p57l7v.html?repost#comments)

The uncomfortable chair is a trade tactic from the empire days :shucks:
The comments .. :har:

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irofWF2vpaI

[Jimbuna]

The European Parliament is expected to ratify the post-Brexit EU-UK trade deal - a key move to ensure that tariff- and quota-free trade continues.

The Trade and Co-operation Agreement (TCA) has been operating provisionally since January. MEPs are expected to vote for it after 20:00 (18:00 GMT).

Brexit tensions remain, including a French threat of "reprisals" against the UK over new fishing restrictions.

Northern Ireland trade is also a thorny issue.

Under a separate protocol, Northern Ireland remains de facto part of the EU's single market, so goods arriving there from Britain have to undergo EU checks. Since Brexit there has been some disruption to that trade.

The TCA covers EU-UK trade in goods, but not services. The UK economy is dominated by services - sectors such as banking, insurance, advertising and legal advice.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56899831

[Skybird]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irofWF2vpaI
Whatever, for the time being, imports and exports from and to the UK have dropped by over one quarter and almost the half.



The NI issue is unsolved.


The Brexit deal becoming fully implemented means the EU can fire hard volleys agaun st the EU if it violates "level playing field" rules, namely that it has to not dumb its tax niveau.



I still think there should not have been any deal/treaty at all, form the UK's POV. If Johnson vilates the treaty now like he violates the NI protocol, the UK can be sued before international courts. It must not comply with there verdicts against it, but if it does, other contract partners across the globe will take note of it, and reconsider their relations with the UK, at least regarding future treaties to be signed.

Violating treaties from now on comes at a price.

[Catfish]

Lmao :har:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQuSKQd4RxM

[Jimbuna]

Me too actually....about ten years ago the wife and I considered buying a villa out there to retire too.

Lucky let off me thinks.

[Catfish]

Well it is only 500 out of hundred thousands of expatriots umm immigrants (lol) who are deported, but the irony is strong.. they would only have had to fill out the paperwork, but it seems they were a bit uninformed or maybe arrogant to believe the very brexit rules they voted for did not apply for them.

[Jimbuna]

I don't know the exact figures but some, a minority, are claiming they did fill in the correct paperwork but were still refused.

[Jimbuna]

https://i.postimg.cc/MKyJCR6R/Untitled11.jpg (https://postimg.cc/SJNP8nzN)

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHUX79U4AIk

[Jimbuna]

‘Disgrace': VDL's ‘hostile' Brexit punishment threat exposes EU chief's ‘insidious menace'

Leigh Evans, editor-in-chief of the pro-Brexit website Facts4EU.org, was commenting on the European Commission President's remarks on Tuesday after MEPs finally ratified the trade deal signed by Boris Johnson in December, finally enshrining the previously provisional deal in law. In it, she said: "The Agreement comes with real teeth - with a binding dispute settlement mechanism and the possibility for unilateral remedial measures where necessary.

"Let me be clear: We do not want to have to use these tools. But we will not hesitate to use them if necessary."

Writing on the website, Mr Evans said: "Failed German Defence Minister Ursula von der Leyen has made many speeches and statements since she was appointed at the last minute as EU Commission President, when the leaders of the EU27 countries could not agree on anyone else.

"She was then presented to the EU Parliament as the only candidate MEPs could vote for.

"Despite this massive and undemocratic advantage in having no opponent, she only scraped through by nine votes.

"Since then, her performance as EU Commission President - especially over the running of the disastrous EU vaccine programme - is now regarded by some as typical of her performance in her previous role as German Defence Minister, when she was described in the German press as their worst cabinet minister.

"Her speech in the EU Parliament stands up there as one of the most misguided in a long line of her miscalculations."

Mr Evans claimed her remarks gave the lie to the image Brussels tends to project, of an "inherently reasonable" organisation.

He said: "Please do not be fooled. The real subtext of this statement is that of insidious menace; a warning of hostile intent by a failing administration whose immediate and instinctive recourse is to blame others for their own failings."

He explained: "A classic example is the court case which the EU Commission started on Wednesday against what it now refers to as "UK-Swedish AstraZeneca".

Mr Evans suggested Mrs von der Leyen's remarks in the course of her speech ran counter to Article 1 of the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement, which highlights the importance of good neighbourliness.

He said: "The world's fifth-largest economy and one of its major soft and hard powers - the United Kingdom - is on the EU's doorstep.

"For the EU's Commission President to make a speech like this is a disgrace."

The Parliament rubber-stamped the deal several months after it was ratified by the UK Parliament.

Commenting, UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson hailed it as the final step in a long journey, providing stability to Britain's new relationship with the EU.

He added: "Now is the time to look forward to the future and to building a more global Britain."

Lord David Frost, who negotiated the agreement with EU counterpart Michel Barnier, tweeted: Hugely welcome the overwhelming vote by the European Parliament for our trade agreement with the EU.

"Hope we can now begin a new chapter together as Europeans, characterised by friendly cooperation between sovereign equals.

"Thank you EU Commission and Michel Barnier for helping get us here."

Express.co.uk has contacted the European Commission to offer her a chance to comment.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/disgrace-vdls-hostile-brexit-punishment-threat-exposes-eu-chiefs-insidious-menace/ar-BB1gfAau?ocid=mailsignout&li=AAnZ9Ug

[Moonlight]

If this is true there's going to be a lot of flak flying about, the Tories are doing what the Tories do best, **** the peasants, we're in charge and we'll do what we want.
This country has more than 1300 food banks and these politicos are considering building a £200 million Royal Yacht, get your priorities right you stupid bent currants.

New ‘Prince Philip’ Royal Yacht is set to cost £200 million – and people aren’t happy
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/new-prince-philip-royal-yacht-is-set-to-cost-200-million-and-people-aren-t-happy/ar-BB1ghfYn?ocid=msedgdhp

[Catfish]

^ Hey you of all and brexiters should love it, this is about power and glory and patriotism, not about petty pennycounting or the lower class, they can starve and die, that's the spirit! :O:

BJ does not score so high in the PMQ, a week ago but .. :03:
https://www.indy100.com/politics/pmqs-boris-johnson-keir-starmer-verdict-b1821763

[Moonlight]

^Bozo has never scored high on any human level. :o
If Boris Johnson or any other Tory MP told me it was raining outside I would have to go and take a look for myself, Boris was a greedy grasping currant as the London Mayor and he's exactly the same greedy grasping currant as Prime Minister, never ever trust a Tory when there's money involved. :O:

Off topic.
@Catfish.
Can you get me a date with that hottie Alice Sara Ott?. :yep:

[Catfish]

[...]
Off topic.
@Catfish.
Can you get me a date with that hottie Alice Sara Ott?. :yep:
Her sister Mona Asuka told me that her sister does not give interviews, so you would have to meet her.. accidentally. She is either in Munich (often plays in he "Gasteig") or in Salzburg, or on tour wherever she can play, so not easy. Not now anyway due to Cor. ..
Alice got MS in 2019 :nope:, poor girl.

[Moonlight]

Do you have to be as thick as a plank to become a politician, I could have told the thicktards this China virus was going to raise its ugly head months ago. :o

COVID SCARE G7 meeting rocked by Covid scare after ‘two positive cases detected amongst Indian delegation’
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14855716/g7-covid-scare-indian-delegation-london/

@Catfish, yep, I knew she had MS, she's not wanted just for her body you know. :O:

[Jimbuna]

Political party leaders make their final push for votes head of polling day on Thursday.

Campaigning in West Yorkshire, Labour leader Keir Starmer said the party is "fighting for every vote"

Boris Johnson has said Thursday's elections will "be very tough"

It will be the biggest election across England, Scotland and Wales outside of a general election.

Hartlepool will elect a new MP - the result will be seen as a test of Boris Johnson and Keir Starmer's leadership.

Voters in Scotland will elect 129 Members of the Scottish Parliament.

The result of Scotland's election could determine the future of the union.

Voters in Wales will elect the 60 members of the Welsh Senedd.

In England, 143 local councils are up for election.

And 39 Police and Crime Commissioners in England and Wales and 13 directly elected mayors in England will also be elected.

[Jimbuna]

https://i.postimg.cc/q7kXyL8k/Untitled11.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[Jimbuna]

So who is being the bully here?

A French government threat to cut off Jersey's electricity over a post-Brexit fishing dispute is "disproportionate", a senior Jersey politician has said.

External Relations Minister Ian Gorst said a "misunderstanding" over a new licensing system had led to the row.

French Maritime Minister Annick Girardin threatened "retaliatory measures" over the new licensing regime for fishing in Jersey's waters.

About 95% of Jersey's electricity comes from France via undersea cables.

The row emerged over a new licensing system for French fishing vessels introduced by the Government of Jersey under the UK-EU Trade and Cooperation Agreement (TCA).

Jersey issued 41 licences for access to its waters on Friday when an interim agreement came to an end.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-jersey-56991804

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tw0SE0jMQRI

[Moonlight]

French politician Bertrand Sorre said "The anger is roaring and the desire to do battle is palpable."

You frogs couldn't bleeding fight to save your country in the 1940s so a call to war over some scallops isn't much cause for concern is it you thick currant.
Sheesh, where are the bleeding Germans when you bloody need them, ah yes, they're too busy selling their souls to China and Russia and, probably anyone else who wants a piece of it.
I would advise Bertrand Sorre to save his war rhetoric for the coming battle that'll be rearing it's head up in France over the next few years, choose wisely you bleeding frog currant because you'll only get one chance to choose which side you're on. :o
Oooooh, rant over. :haha:

[mapuc]

I don't think it would come that far a War between UK and France/EU

On the other hand I think something will happen inside UK...

Saw some minutes from the Scottish election, where Sturgeon rejected any accusation on have a illegal referendum.

This made me remember the movie Braveheart and next thoughts popped up

Will we in the near future be witness to some military/terror attack on British interest in Scotland ?

Markus

[Moonlight]

I never said it would mapuc, the frog politicians should concentrate on political matters and not on the marine life, oh wait, there nemesis is on the horizon and they call her Marine Le Pen, so perhaps it is all interconnected. :haha:

Braveheart was a load of bollocks just like the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon is, I hope they get their independence because from what I can gather from the local citizenry around these here parts is we would be well rid of the ungrateful scrounging bastards. :O:

Terror attack on Scotland, by who?, bloody hell man 99% of the world doesn't know where the hell it is, so that's a big fat No. :O:

[mapuc]

Terror attack on Scotland, by who?, bloody hell man 99% of the world doesn't know where the hell it is, so that's a big fat No. :O:

No not some radical Islamic moron but some radical political Scottish groups who want Scottish independent.

I could very well imagine some of these attacked one or another British owned building in Scotland.

Markus

[Moonlight]

Well lets hope nothing like that does occur, if a British business did get attacked they would only be shooting themselves in the foot as Scotland needs every tax penny it can get hold of at the moment.

[Jimbuna]

Looks like Operation Frog Lion has been postponed...for now.

French fishermen leave Jersey after post-Brexit rights protest
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57011376

[Jimbuna]

https://i.postimg.cc/3NH833Vx/Untitled11.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/nrYHz6fY/Untitled12.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[Jimbuna]

https://i.postimg.cc/Pfmf28vp/Untitled13.jpg (https://postimg.cc/RqZz0hR4)

[mapuc]

I have the ability to paint a certain figure on the wall.

Hearing and reading what's going on in Northern Ireland, Ireland and the determination among the Scots to be independent

Gives me a bad taste-How will UK look like in 5-10-15 years from now.

If UK dissolved will it be peaceful or...?

Markus

[Jimbuna]

https://i.postimg.cc/y8qtP9NJ/Untitled11.jpg (https://postimg.cc/GHQX34Gr)

[Skybird]

Biggest growth since 1994 - that probably didn't go as they hoped in Brussels.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://www.n-tv.de/wirtschaft/Britische-Industrie-waechst-sprunghaft-article22531879.html

[Jimbuna]

I'd like to think we will see a steady growth in the number of trade deals with other countries then we can tell the EU what our terms are should they want us to stick to the Brexit treaty.

I know much of it is down to the popular press but there is a growing amount of public resentment aimed across the Channel and France is currently the main target.

[Catfish]

I'd like to think we will see a steady growth in the number of trade deals with other countries then we can tell the EU what our terms are should they want us to stick to the Brexit treaty. [...]
Effectively the UK government wants the EU to change rules the UK actually initiated while they were in the EU.
So you say England's intention to break signed treaties is still strong :hmmm:
I know much of it is down to the popular press but there is a growing amount of public resentment aimed across the Channel and France is currently the main target.
Thank god no one here cares what the UK yellow press publishes. Of course the same is not true for their english audience.

[Skybird]

I'd like to think we will see a steady growth in the number of trade deals with other countries then we can tell the EU what our terms are should they want us to stick to the Brexit treaty.

I know much of it is down to the popular press but there is a growing amount of public resentment aimed across the Channel and France is currently the main target.
And again I must set flag in favour of your side there. Can't wrong you for getting a bit angry with the French. I too would prefer that Germany falls back to a much more sober relation with France.


Wait until the elections in septembre. Then Germany will likely become even more francophile.

[Catfish]

3:10 what it's all about. The Eu is not there to solve England's problems.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D73q2f9niVg

[Skybird]

Anyone remembering Cod Wars?


Look it up at Wikipedia.

[Jimbuna]

Anyone remembering Cod Wars?


Look it up at Wikipedia.

I had a friend (Petty Officer Sonar) who has sadly passed recently. He was aboard a RN frigate during the above and he would occasionally share stories of how RN ships bows were reinforced with concrete for ramming purposes.

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DB6A5JNX2mM

[Skybird]

I had a friend (Petty Officer Sonar) who has sadly passed recently. He was aboard a RN frigate during the above and he would occasionally share stories of how RN ships bows were reinforced with concrete for ramming purposes.
But they did not had to row, no...? :hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYpkhrq0Tzg

[Jimbuna]

But they did not had to row, no...? :hmmm:

The hull of the Leander Class frigate was paper thin. They were designed to fire missiles etc. at enemies in the distance and were totally unsuitable for what was expected of them during the Cod War.

[Catfish]

^^ EU bankrupt and "Frexit"?
Cheap propaganda, but at least one of the comments is true: England will have a bit of a problem if LePen wins the next election.
And the makers of these vids will have a good laugh (read: Russia)

[mapuc]

^^ EU bankrupt and "Frexit"?
Cheap propaganda, but at least one of the comments is true: England will have a bit of a problem if LePen wins the next election.
And the makers of these vids will have a good laugh (read: Russia)

I doubt she will win, I know the inner child of a voter and it can be bribed.

Just promise them lower taxes higher wages and other good things and you have a majority of their votes.

This is what happened last time Marie Le Pen was in the lead-then Macron made those promises and he won.
(From my memory)

Markus

[Moonlight]

^That may be true old boy but Macron didn't bloody deliver on those promises did he?, what he did do though was look after the well heeled muppets as usual and the less well off will not fall for that tactic again.

Edit

This piece by Tony Parsons sums up the current Labour Politicians for me, it's OTT but the underlying message is plain as day, the days of the 1970s Labour voter voting blindly for their Labour councillors and MP's are consigned to history, and so will the Labour movement if they don't change their stance.

TONY PARSONS Labour ditched working class voters…and now they’ve ditched Labour for good
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14893422/tony-parsons-working-class-ditch-labour/

[Jimbuna]

^ True that :yep:

I was a party member for somewhere in the region of 25 years but resigned my membership the day after Steptoe and his loony left rabble took hold of the reigns of power.

I can't vote Tory either because of fundamental differences so I tend to vote Independent and am resigned to the fact my vote doesn't make any difference at all in the overall picture of things.

[Catfish]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30NvDC1zcL8


Some will say there's a grain of truth in that :03:

[Catfish]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GG0ckXxh6XI

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b_tAJ2btCY

[Catfish]

Election 2021: What do the results mean for Scottish independence?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-57038039


https://i.imgur.com/LZusHIMl.jpg

[Jimbuna]

We have our own Berlin Wall....it's called Hadrians Wall :)

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWtvOQyYjdw

[Moonlight]

Men detained by Home Office released after face off between police and protesters in Glasgow
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/men-detained-by-home-office-released-after-face-off-between-police-and-protesters-in-glasgow/ar-BB1gHixE?ocid=msedgntp

Here's an idea for you Bozo, 1- fire all the prats who had anything to do with this decision, 2- send all illegal immigrants in England up to Scotland as they clearly like having potential terrorists on their doorstep, 3- don't forget to mix a few thousand terrorists you've allowed back from the middle east into the mix as well.
You might not have the bollocks to do anything like that Bozo but there's quite a few million people in England who does, gizza job. :haha:

[MGR1]

Glasgow, Moonlight, Glasgow, not Scotland as a whole.:timeout:

One defining characteristic of Weegie Left-Wingers is their similarity to the French Left - they'll strike and protest about anything at the drop of a hat.

The English Right forever gurns about the Scottish (actually Glaswegian) love affair with the Left but they're merely complaining about the symptoms. They never stop to ask themselves what caused Socialism to be so widely accepted in the Clyde Valley in the first place.:hmmm:

As in Northern Ireland, the root of the problem goes back to at least the 19th Century, if not further, namely how Scotland has been governed by it's ruling and economic elites.

Mike.

[Moonlight]

^Yep I know that, but the brain dead down here don't, Nicola says that all refugees are welcome, :o I think when these migrants have got settled in then they'll demand their nearest and dearest plus a couple of dozen hangers on should join them in this generous benefit free for all. :haha:

That is very magnanimous of Nicola but I insist she pays for those migrants out of your taxes instead of taking it from the Barnett formula money. :O:

[Jimbuna]

UK and Irish PMs hold talks amid Northern Ireland tensions
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-57113382

[Moonlight]

Boris Johnson blasted for not shutting borders with India earlier

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/medical/boris-johnson-blasted-for-not-shutting-borders-with-india-earlier/ar-BB1gK4qq?ocid=msedgntp

That makes a change, I can't remember agreeing with Angela Rayner on anything before but on this I do.
Bozo, be a prime minister or **** off and let someone else make the tough decisions. :O:

[MGR1]

That is very magnanimous of Nicola but I insist she pays for those migrants out of your taxes instead of taking it from the Barnett formula money. :O:
Actually, my taxes go towards that anyway.:03: Aberdeen City generates more tax revenue than it gets back in local authority funding. We're the worst funded council area in Scotland.:Kaleun_Mad:
Mike.

[MGR1]

Boris Johnson blasted for not shutting borders with India earlier

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/medical/boris-johnson-blasted-for-not-shutting-borders-with-india-earlier/ar-BB1gK4qq?ocid=msedgntp

That makes a change, I can't remember agreeing with Angela Rayner on anything before but on this I do.
Bozo, be a prime minister or **** off and let someone else make the tough decisions. :O:
Saw that on the BBC news website yesterday - they put Pakistan and Bangladesh on the Red List and then seemingly dither about India for two weeks.:doh: In the meantime there's a stampede back to the UK by people visiting family in India, plus you add in the Eid holiday for Muslims, so there's no wonder that the new virus hotspots are in areas with large South Asian populations like Bolton and the South Side of Glasgow.:nope:

Mike.

[MGR1]

UK and Irish PMs hold talks amid Northern Ireland tensions
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-57113382
... and in the meantime the DUP elect a right fruitcake as their new leader:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-57115975

Somebody please drag the Unionist hardliners out of the 17th century!:doh:

Mike.

[Skybird]

Boris Johnson blasted for not shutting borders with India earlier.
Well, Germany has put the UK back on the list of high risk zones and issued a travel warning, due to the Indian variant. :D

[Moonlight]

Meh!. According to Catfish the EU countries should avoid the UK like the plague anyway so there's nothing new in that news Skybird.
Come to the UK and get this new India virus variant now or wait a few weeks for it to go rampaging around the EU states, your choice.
When we ban you lot for having this new India virus variant you'll just see how stupidly ineffective all these ban measures are, the European Western politicians are as thick as planks. :haha:

[Jimbuna]

The Indian Government are doing themselves no favours here.

India Covid: How law stops NGOs distributing essential aid https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57095591

[Moonlight]

Actually, my taxes go towards that anyway.:03: Aberdeen City generates more tax revenue than it gets back in local authority funding. We're the worst funded council area in Scotland.:Kaleun_Mad:
Mike.

Give it time old boy and Nicola will sort you all out for the better, :O: meanwhile, in the land of milk and honey "Tory England" we have someone down here "Bozo Johnson" just as inept as your Nicola is, at least Nicki is a female who would come in handy every now and then whereas our Bozo is only useful if you're a bloody shirt lifter.
What a bleeding choice to pick from, what the **** has happened since Churchill's mob kicked the bucket. :o

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc89u8XQVNM

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVzE0qLMQf8

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7vMOC-BkJ0

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zgTCCam6N4

[Catfish]

Not only the EU but the WHOLE WORLD will COLLAPSE and be DESPERATE when THE BRITONS unleash their POWER.

A bit off their trolley?

[Skybird]

The Germans have become one iof the ludest lobbyists for a simple mahjority "reform" ofbthge Eu althogz these stuzouds should know thatr it wil only lead to demanding debtors abusign that to amke the german pay evcen more by collectivising dfebts, like the net payer aleady have lost the veto majority inb the ECB boad no matter what theys rotating memberships look like - the net recioever have the deciding majority on that board now. And you can see it.



No Corona and currency inflation like crazy, and an enormous zombification of companies that are allowed under the umbrella of corona state aids to surivve alth9ugh being dead and incompetitve. In German, 18% now, the official numbers say, as I said in the ither thread I always add a minimum of 5% to thes eoffiocial numbers. Plus EU climategate costs (they call it green deal).



It does not need the Brits to blow the EU off the balance sheets. The EU will manage to achieve that all by itself. And nowhere with greater enthusiasm than in Germany. Servile submissve dogs the Germans are. Disgusting self-denying creeps. I cannot stand people wanting to be small and weak, and being afraid to show strength. Such people always are just little people, and always weasel around like little pet animals.

[Catfish]

What has all this to do with the UK, or England?

Does not matter: Patriotism. What the :

https://i.imgur.com/ASfu92dl.jpg

[Jimbuna]

The UK has offered trade deal terms to Australia under which both countries would phase out taxes on imports over 15 years.

The cabinet was reportedly split on what terms to propose, amid concerns UK beef and lamb farmers could be undercut by larger Australian producers.

But the dispute was apparently resolved after Boris Johnson pushed for unity.

International Trade Secretary Liz Truss formally made the UK offer to her Australian counterpart on Friday.

If accepted, it would also lead to quotas - limits - on tax-free trade between the two countries to be phased out.

The National Farmers' Union (NFU) has warned that freeing up the UK-Australian trade in meat will lead to hundreds of British cow and sheep breeders going out of business.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-57198607

[MGR1]

SNP Finance Minister Kate Forbes 'has to tiptoe around' her Christian faith:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-57203901

Wiki link for the Free Church of Scotland:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Church_of_Scotland_(since_1900)

Sooo, she's a Wee Free (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wee_Free) is she. Might be few conflicts of faith versus party policy then.:hmmm:

Here's the wikipedia graphic showing just how... fractious we Scots have been about religious matters:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bd/Churches_of_Scotland_timeline.png/1024px-Churches_of_Scotland_timeline.png

As can be seen, not just the main Kirk, but an additional SIX splinter denominations. Mainly due to the "we think your not doing things the right way so we're going to form our own" propensity.:nope:

Edit: It might be an idea to view the pro-Scottish Independence argument in the same light.

Mike.

[Skybird]

What has all this to do with the UK, or England?


Reply to post #13843. Its not just the usual Verhoefstadt suspect pushing for it. Those at whose expense the proposal is, want it themselves, and liuder than some others. The Germans beg for getting financially abused even more. Off-putting.

[Jimbuna]

The EU at its finest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jevbYl7xsFg

"Switzerland should have seen from Brexit, the dangers and pitfalls of signing a treaty with the rabid zealots in charge of the EU! They would do well to keep these monsters at arms length and go WTO."

"Just shows you what the EU are like , How can anyone like them when they do this to any who will not let them take full control & do what they want ."

[Catfish]

The EU at its finest. [lots of loaded biased propaganda "rabid zealots!" "these monsters" blah]
Better than England at its worst..
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/multi-millionaires-against-the-eu---a-bet-with-an-unknown-outcome/46518146

The underlaying logic of all this is that as an individual you may have problems to ask for and get your rights through and heard e.g. by big concerns, from workers rights to education, to loans. A democratic group of international states that signed their joint support to help and make better treaties with unions, companies and governments is the help that not so well-off people (the majority) need, especially today.
I am always finding it hard to understand why even low-paid workers fall for the promises and cheats of industry and rich people, being led around by the nose and voting against their own interests. It seems they never learn.
Regarding England with its "Lords", the higher classes and the despised inferior folks system, they are perfect at it. And it is England and its system that governs, rules, and makes the decisions, not Ireland, Scotland or Wales.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHHgpig9Bus


Of course the EU has to be smashed, with its humanistic ideas or (gasp) helping average people to be able to lead a better life, even help the industry being more competitive that way and creating a better future especially for young people.

"Oh my god, what will they think of next, where are they going to stop?"

[Skybird]

...sigh...

Impartial, differentiated and unbiased as always, Catfish.

[Catfish]

Only a direct answer to the video Jim posted (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2749569&postcount=13851), i take it this is also completely unbiased. From the comments: They are shooting themselves in the foot and complain how the EU could do it?
Maybe I should return the favour and call them rabid zealots and monsters next time, i guess this is less biased then :hmmm:. I am sure Rupert Murdoch does really not want to sound like Mr Goebbels in his media, but somehow mostly he does.

What about the first Link (Switzerland banks) and the video?

[Jimbuna]

The PM's former chief adviser Dominic Cummings is facing questions about his time working in No 10 and the decisions around the pandemic.

Mr Cummings says "senior ministers, senior officials, senior advisers like me fell disastrously short" of what the "public expects during a crisis like this"

He adds that the government "failed" when "the public needed us most", and apologises for his own mistakes.

Mr Cummings tells MPs there was not “any sense of urgency" about the pandemic until the last week of February.

He says in February 2020, the PM regarded Covid as a “scare story” and said he would get Prof Chris Whitty to inject him with it on TV

Mr Cummings says Health Secretary Matt Hancock was "completely wrong" in suggesting herd immunity was never part of the government's original plan.

He says achieving herd immunity without vaccination "was regarded as an unavoidable fact" in the official planning.

Mr Cummings says Mr Hancock "should have been fired" for "at least 15 to 20 things", including lying to people in meetings.

One of the biggest cases of sour grapes and hypocrisy I've come across for quite some time.

This is the man who was chief adviser to the PM when many of these decisions were taken so surely he is part of the wrongs he is claiming.

Best not mention the number of rules he broke driving from London to Durham when it suited him.

[Jimbuna]

China has overtaken Germany to become the UK's biggest single import market for the first time since records began.

Goods imported from China rose 66% from the start of 2018 to £16.9bn ($24bn) in the first quarter of this year, the Office for National Statistics said.

Imports from Germany fell by a quarter to £12.5bn in the same period.

The change came as trade with the European Union was disrupted by Brexit and the pandemic boosted demand for Chinese goods.

The Office for National Statistics (ONS) report aimed to assess the impacts of Brexit and the coronavirus on the UK's trade in goods.

It found evidence that trade had been disrupted at the start of the new relationship between the UK and the EU.

The ONS said German imports to the UK had fallen since April 2019, amid uncertainty over the details of Britain's exit from the EU.

Germany's motor industry also felt the impact of the pandemic as both vehicle production and global exports were hit.

In the UK, demand for new vehicles slumped as car showrooms were shut due to lockdown measures.

Exports of goods to Ireland saw the greatest proportionate fall of the UK's top five exporting partners after the EU transition period, the ONS said.

Since modern records began in 1997, Germany had been the UK's biggest source of imports, except for a six month period at the end of 2000 and the start of the following year when the US briefly took the top spot.

Despite a 23.1% fall in total trade with European Union countries as a whole in the period, the EU remains the UK's biggest trading partner, the report found.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-57236714

[Jimbuna]

The EU at its finest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jevbYl7xsFg

"Switzerland should have seen from Brexit, the dangers and pitfalls of signing a treaty with the rabid zealots in charge of the EU! They would do well to keep these monsters at arms length and go WTO."

"Just shows you what the EU are like , How can anyone like them when they do this to any who will not let them take full control & do what they want ."

And so it goes on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAk_LbUIjeo

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaqXqzDllDI

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CwjHMiv3YI

[mapuc]

Is anyone watching these video clips ?

Markus

[Catfish]

^ I guess you get hypnotised when you watch too much of this stuff :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh5kxentrY0

[Skybird]

Various shorter and longer TV docus showed me that one of the fallouts ois that exporting and importing now is being drowning in a flood of paperwork. The major contributor to this are demands form brussels, not London, and I am undet the impresison that the overblown burwucracy demanded by Brussel is beign used as a weapon to maximise frustration and damage amongst UK exporters and businesses. Some days ago a docu said that 40% of UK businesses of small and medium dimensions consider to stop doping business qwioth the continent at all, for it just does not pay off. Since I always have expected - and said so - that the eu wil retaliate and take revenge against the impertinent British subjects refusing to be obedient vasalls to superior idolgoists io brussels, and that they will play every foul trick to turn this into a decouraging precedence that warns every other nation considering a leave to indeed turn away formt he block, my best advise for such businesses is that they indeed focus on international trading relations excluding the EU completely.



We see the same threatening, malicious behaviour of the EU regardign Switzerland after the Swiss rejected to bow to EU demands that would have realised way too far-reaching powers for the EU in Switzerlands internal affairs that must not be the blocks or any foreign actors business. The reaction was and is: threats, threats, and more threats.



In the end the EU wants to become what China is.

[Jimbuna]

Is anyone watching these video clips ?

Markus

Just Kai :)

:O:

[Jimbuna]

Various shorter and longer TV docus showed me that one of the fallouts ois that exporting and importing now is being drowning in a flood of paperwork. The major contributor to this are demands form brussels, not London, and I am undet the impresison that the overblown burwucracy demanded by Brussel is beign used as a weapon to maximise frustration and damage amongst UK exporters and businesses. Some days ago a docu said that 40% of UK businesses of small and medium dimensions consider to stop doping business qwioth the continent at all, for it just does not pay off. Since I always have expected - and said so - that the eu wil retaliate and take revenge against the impertinent British subjects refusing to be obedient vasalls to superior idolgoists io brussels, and that they will play every foul trick to turn this into a decouraging precedence that warns every other nation considering a leave to indeed turn away formt he block, my best advise for such businesses is that they indeed focus on international trading relations excluding the EU completely.



We see the same threatening, malicious behaviour of the EU regardign Switzerland after the Swiss rejected to bow to EU demands that would have realised way too far-reaching powers for the EU in Switzerlands internal affairs that must not be the blocks or any foreign actors business. The reaction was and is: threats, threats, and more threats.



In the end the EU wants to become what China is.

Too many smaller states/leeches for that to ever happen. Once the gravy train stops, everyone will jump onto another train.

One thing I am quietly confident of is the fact the UK will never become a vassal state to them.

In reality the EU is ruled mainly by Macron and unfortunately it is Germany who is paying for it/funding it.

I'd love to see the UK rip up the treaty after giving sufficient formal notice and stop the divorce payments.

[Skybird]

Yeah, a clear cut. I never was supportive for this alibi treaty operetta show. Either it is, or it isn't. Simple as that. You cannot dance at two parties simultaneously.

[Catfish]

The usual quarreling when trading with other countries, it is not a special EU thing but rather WTO rules. The UK will (have to) get used to it.

[Catfish]

Just Kai :)
:O:
I'm sorry but I stopped watching those after the first three or so.. reading the headline tells you all you need about the 'content'.

And the loaded words in those vids appear more and more in Jim's vocabulary, from "the UK will never become a vassal state" to "the EU is ruled mainly by Macron" to "love to see the UK rip up the treaty" :D

[Jimbuna]

They certainly weren't so biased towards us entering their country in June 44

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NZeGXbI-Ik

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQKOgEr0CfU

[Jimbuna]

The UK has signed a post-Brexit trade deal with Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein, the government has announced.

The agreement will be a major boost for trade between the four non-EU nations, which is already worth £21.6bn, UK minister Liz Truss said.

She claimed it would boost sectors such as digital and cut tariffs on UK farm products such as cheese and meat.

Britain is Norway's top trading partner outside the European Union (EU).

The UK government said reduced import tariffs on shrimps, prawns and haddock would cut costs for UK fish processing, helping to support jobs in Scotland, East Yorkshire and northern Lincolnshire.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-57347874

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xGoW7hrXg0

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXknu17hJtw

[Jimbuna]

If this is true then tell them the they should keep their noses out of Ireland and the UK won't give in to bullying tactics. Tear up the treaty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIUDioPYI3k

[Skybird]

Stupid things come from stupid treaties.

A treaty signed is a treaty that must either be obeyed (pacta sund servanda) - or gets broken.

IMO its pretty nonsense stuff included in that treaty, especially on NI. I would have never signed it in this format.

I tend to think that Londown is on the legally slippery slope here. Yet I realise the realities on the ground that are being ignored by the treaty are such that you cannot weasel around them, the treaty ignored that it included practical inner contradictions and reality denials. These reality denials got signed in a misled hope that they would vanish all by themsleves and would go away by miracle and wonder - which of course they did not.

Its a stupid, foolish treaty. It is, it always has been from beginning on, and it always will be. A textbook example for how to not have a treaty. Better no treaty, than this incapable drivel.

I tend to think that Londown is the offender on the NI thing. They signed drivel, and now realise to what ammount that drivel indeed is drivel. They never should have signed it. Now they have no other choice than to become the offender by breaking the treaty. From a pragmatic, practical POV, I absolutely see the need to it, but I will not spare London from calling it the offender on the NI issue. They should never have signed this drivel, not in this format - the government shot a spectacular own goal there.

There are many things I call the EU out for in the Brexit comedy. But the NI issue is completely Londown's fault. They never should have signed it. They knew what is written in it, and they signed it nevertheless. Idiots. The laugh is always on the loser.

The whole Brexit treaty is a damn laugh. Rip and shredder it, let both sides have their separete, different lives running. They must not necessarily deal with each other, they are just geographic neighbours, not more. Geography alone means not automatically mutual obligations.

[Catfish]

I do not watch this russian/Murdoch/yellow press bull but with or without the EU, maybe it is time for England to come to terms with it's self-made Ireland problem :hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

That may be more difficult than first thought. I'm reading articles mentioning Biden putting pressure on Boris to sort things out.

[Skybird]

You just need to obey the EU's demands on Ireland as written down and signed in that treaty. :O:

Biden said that already during his campaign. No trade deal with the US if the Irish issue is settled such that new violence errupts. So, Johnson hardly can be surprised.

I seem to recall that Biden's family has Irish roots. For the UK he favours obedience to the EU over the risk of the Irish violence coming back, if that are the choices.

[Catfish]

The EU's demands? :haha: What about England's demands? The EU acted in (part of) Ireland's interest of course, how shocking. Ireland's interests have not been on any agenda for centuries.

[Skybird]

The EU demands, as demanded to be put down in writing in that treaty.



No sovereign nation can accept to fulfill those conditions and terms without mocking itself. What made Johnson think he could get around it later on, let grass grow over it, will forever be his perosnaol secret, but in brussel the champagne bottles got emptied when he signed this treaty with these demands on Ireland.



Absolutely stupid. And it was toi be kinown from bveginning on, and I said it since years. It takes no rocket scientist to see it.



If I were the UK, I would declare the whole treaty nill and void and cancel it within 6 months, take all the flak and blame and consequences, and call it a day regarding the continent. Relatiosn with the EU are toxic any poisoned anyway, and they will remain to be that for long time to come. There is no clean way out of this self-made less. The world will note that the Brits are quick in signing and then unsubscriubing form teatries, so the next idiot showing up in white hall thiking he can sign a stupid treaty and then just ignore it instead of just not signing it from beginning on, should get led to that certain prime place at the wall where the view is unobstructed and where there is plenty of free space for the feet and legs to stand comfortably, and shot.



They act as if the Irish fairy tale buster has just popped up a few weeks ago. Its the elephant in the room since several YEARS...! :arrgh!:

[Jimbuna]

A group of Conservative rebel MPs has been thwarted in its bid to overturn £4bn of government cuts to the overseas aid budget.

They had suggested returning spending from 0.5% to 0.7% of national income next year through a bill dealing with the UK's new research agency.

But the proposal was ruled inadmissible by Commons Speaker Sir Lindsay Hoyle, meaning it will not be put to a vote.

However, he called on ministers to give MPs an "effective" vote on the issue.

Sir Lindsay said the rebels' amendment was not within the remit of the law they wanted to change - meaning it could not be allowed.

Despite this, he said ministers should give the Commons "the respect it deserves" and find a way to allow MPs an "effective decision" on the target.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-57389289

[mapuc]

We discuss EU a lot in this UK-Politics thread

I will therefore post an translated article from a Danish newspaper.

"
EU countries have committed themselves to pursuing a common foreign policy that is intergovernmental. Denmark does not have a reservation regarding foreign policy and is therefore also involved in the area. Foreign policy decisions in the EU must be taken unanimously.

However, the Liberal Party wants to change the latter. The Liberal Party's EU rapporteur, Kim Valentin, says that the party wants to introduce a qualified majority to strengthen the EU's foreign policy. This means that all countries - incl. Denmark - will lose their veto.

If this is introduced, Denmark may be forced to support a foreign policy, which we have voted against in the EU, because a qualified majority consisting of Germany, France and other EU-enthusiastic countries have voted yes.

According to the Liberal Party's rapporteur, Denmark will not be weakened by losing its veto. On the contrary, we become stronger
"

Markus

[Catfish]

We discuss EU a lot in this UK-Politics thread
Not me bringing this up, usually all things turning out 'not so nice' are blamed on the EU, e.g. outcome and problems of brexit or such :D
Foreign policy decisions in the EU must be taken unanimously.Yes, if all agree this should become a standard. Like in the UK b.t.w.
If this is introduced, Denmark may be forced to support a foreign policy, which we have voted against in the EU, because a qualified majority consisting of Germany, France and other EU-enthusiastic countries have voted yes.OMG imagine if Scotland and Ireland voted against independence because England said it was the only way to all stay in the EU, and what happened to those countries when a small majority in England voted to leave.

Accepting unanimous votes can be tricky.. and we can also discuss danish matters here that are not entirely danish :D
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-01/denmark-allegedly-helped-us-spy-on-merkel/100180282

[Skybird]

The need to decide in unity often was the last remaining safety saving European states form getting plowed under by opportunistic profiteers wanting to benefit from unwanted decisions in their favour, from money and economy, to migration and ideology.



I fear the day when simple majority decisions are enough when the states wanting to suck more in from their milk cow states that are net payers, or who want more centralised and EU statehood, can push this through just by clumping together and forming a rat pack biting those who have to pay for it or have to give up themselves. These things always work only at one direciton, its always only a one-lane street, and we can see it with the Euro already, where the net payers more and more lost their options in last years to block demands by net recievers for increasing budgets, giving the ECB ever more power it is by treaties not legitimated to hold, and to collectivise debts.


Fans of big state and deep state of course love simple majority, it gives ever so more power to the populists on the pro-EU side of things. Effective resistence to the block is no more possible then. Applause for this execution of unwanted resistence! brussels prevails!



Its exactly this inherent issue that makes me supporting Brexit and hoping that it becomes a successful challenge to the EU, motivating others to confront the block, too. Britain. Switzerland. Norway and Iceland said to be increaisngly unhappy. Right wing rising in many countries of the block in reaction to the ever growing eagerness of the eU to turn into one continental superstate and national parliaments having nothign to say anymore, rendering voters meaningless. They already are just nodding machines for over 90% of daily business.



Because what meaning has an election for an operetta parliament where several hundred million people should/could vote for other people from other countries about whose political estblishmenets they know nothing and about whose politicians they know not much as well? Its a perverting of democracy which originally was meant to self-adminster smallest possible communities at the very local, regional basis, at the very smallest cell imaginablee for economic/political adminstration: the "deme", consisting of as small an entity as even just one single farm. The eU wants to become the exact, the utmost opposite of this real meaning of democracy. It wants to abuse it as an alibi. Like China does. Like Putin does. Like Turkey does. They all have elections. They all talk of freedom and democracy. They all say "for the people".



Now it is up to the Europeans to swallow the very same poison pills. And those who hope they will get more money from it than they give into it, will love the idea. And demagogues of the the sickest kind will climb the ladders on the power hierarchies, becasue the more unscrupulous you cheta and lie and the smellier you stink the more entzsiastic people beoeuive youk, becasue they want to beleive all the fairy tales of miracles and wonder, glory and wekath, freedom and "the heavens pay for it".



Stupid germans. Damn freaking stupid Germans. Always on the wrong side of history and things. They seem to have a gene for it. I could pull my hair out over Germans, if I still would have some hair.

[Catfish]

The need to decide in unity often was the last remaining safety saving European states form getting plowed under by opportunistic profiteers wanting to benefit from unwanted decisions in their favour, from money and economy, to migration and ideology.
Well, if it is about Germany, it profits heavily from the Eu, as did the UK. Logical that Germany does not want to change much as long as the small "profiteers" do not really spoil the wins. As soon as they do .. not yet though. Also funny how Greece instantly pulls out the Nazi club when they see their model of tax fraud challenged by the majority of the EU.

"Opportunistic profiteers", may i remind you it was just of all those who initiated and executed 'brexit', never the "man from the street". How utterly "democratic" if the media are owned by the very supporters and being used as a weapon, when the medium itself becomes the message and not any content, or unwanted "truth".

The EZB policy is what every nation or 'kingdom' does and has done, to master a crisis: master it. And print money if necessary. Nothing extaordinary, instead the spending saved the ahem 'behind' of a lot of companies, and thus jobs. What is a bit of inflation over years against a complete instant downfall? Ah yes, you would prefer the latter.
Fans of big state and deep state of course love simple majority, it gives ever so more power to the populists on the pro-EU side of things.I would reluctantly note that that it is the right wing, brexiters, anti vaxxers and generally rather dumb persons (sorry, but not really sorry) who are quite populist in the last years; the EU to a much lesser degree (if at all).

And oh yes the government is so bad and all the unhappy folks would have protested, but it was going to rain, and I cannot be bothered to go into politics myself to change things because i am too lazy and others do it better. But complain and protest i will, so much more fun!

Without the EU the UK would have to face a much stronger wind blowing, be sure. But then it seems this is what you want? Let England happily join the WTO and forget what Australia's minister had said about "things leave a lot to be desired", in comparison with something like the EU. "[...] if the UK is seeking to negotiate a future trade arrangement with the EU on "Australian terms" this would be similar to, though not exactly the same as, a "no deal" on "WTO terms".
Only England's yellow press sees this different, and frankly no one gives a "$h!ß what they write.

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGuYVm8so6A

[mapuc]

Thank you Catfish and Skybird.

Your answer was interesting. While reading it I came to a kind of a conclusion.
We NEED a EU-thread.

EU affect many of us here on this great forum in one way or the other.

Markus

[Catfish]

^ and i thought this one is the real (anti-)EU thread ;)

[Jimbuna]

I found your post (the one above Catfish) most insightful and in kilter with my understanding and I'll also respect your deletion and leave it alone :03:

[mapuc]

Yes, if all agree this should become a standard. Like in the UK b.t.w.
OMG imagine if Scotland and Ireland voted against independence because England said it was the only way to all stay in the EU, and what happened to those countries when a small majority in England voted to leave.


?? Wasn't there a majority among the voters in Scotland and Northern Ireland to remain in EU ??

Here I'm thinking Does EU see UK as one or do they see Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales as free countries, who are tied together by some law/rule with Britain.

When it return I will post it here or in a new thread-Forgot what I wanted to write :wah:

Markus

[Catfish]

?? Wasn't there a majority among the voters in Scotland and Northern Ireland to remain in EU ??
Exactly. And what happened?

As posted before :O:

https://i.imgur.com/sq4y9fu.jpg

[mapuc]

< Now I remember.

Continue from last post:

If simple majority decisions was a part of EU would they have accepted the outcome of the British referendum ?

Meaning-If EU sees Scotland, N.I and Wales as independent states, would they have accepted it ?

Markus

[Catfish]

I take it England and maybe Wales would have left, but not Scotland and Ireland.
Some kind of blackmailing to demand leaving the EU because England wants it. As the joke goes, "England, Scotland and Ireland went to a pub but they all had to leave because England wanted to", only a few years after promising the only way to remain in the EU was to remain in the UK, and no indepencence for its members.

It is not about sovereignty, England and the UK always had it, it is also not about immigrants, because immigrants are as free or prohibited to enter the UK as before brexit, but this Cummings slogan "Take back control" hit a nerve, adding Farage's nazi-like queues poster with the threat of immigrants waiting to invade England ummmm the UK, or the Boris brexit bus with the fund the NHS slogan.
Some lies at the right time and spots, and that's it. No one took the time or effort to try to understand how the EU really works or what it does, Farage's "unelected breaucrats" and all those other lies.
I have posted a list of invented lies about the EU numerous times, only to read the same BS a few days later again.

Maybe there is an economical advantage in the long run (ten-twenty years from now) but frankly? I doubt it. England importing and exporting goods e.g. from and to Australia instead from and to your neighbour makes so much sense? All treaties and "deals" (real TrumpSpeak eh?) England has managed to sign are not one yota better than what the EU treaties gave them, most are worse.

The only winners are people like Rees-Mogg and some (and only some) companies. One of the biggest brexit supporters like vacuum-Dyson who promptly moved their business to Singapore and Rees-Mogg to the republic of Ireland, when brexit threatened their profits.

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3VJt75qm5U

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF9BERgpHhY

[Jimbuna]

The EU says its patience is "wearing very thin" with the UK in talks aimed at avoiding a trade war over Northern Ireland border checks.

Exports of sausages and other chilled meats from Great Britain to Northern Ireland will effectively be banned at the end of the month.

The UK says it is ready to ignore the ban to prevent further disruption.

Top EU official Maros Sefcovic warned tariffs - taxes on imports - could be imposed if that happens.

Speaking after a meeting with the UK's Brexit minister Lord Frost, Mr Sefcovic said he was "positive we can find a solution, where there is a will there is a way".

But he added: "Our patience really is wearing very, very thin, and therefore we have to assess all options we have at our disposal."
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-57403258

[Catfish]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEth44Tuf3s

"Expect frank discussions when Biden meets with Johnson".

[Skybird]

Like in case of a German referendum not all 16 federla states would have independent votes and some states would leave the Eu and some wopuld stay, but all 16, under thre German flag would be united a sone in such a vote, Scotland, wale,s Northern Ireland and England were untied as one nation in the Brexit vote.

Its double standards to demand that eahc of these four regions should be treated as if they were 4 independent states. They are not, they are one. And in this one nation, a short majority voted Yes.

Live with it, Catfish. A majority of the UK population said Yes to Brexit. A majority of the UK population. The UK is not four nations, but one. Like Germany is not 16 nations, but one.

When any of the Gemrna federla states or the four UK regions becomes fully independent - then, and not one day earlier, the argument you raise makes kind of sense.

Personally , if the Irish or Scots would want to leave, I support them, as a loibertarian I respect the right for self-administration. But not if they cannot pay their bills on their own, but expect others to pay for them. Expect us, that is. A nation that cannot live by its own means, is not independent, even if it declares independence. It is indeed very dependent then. Independency is not a formality only. Its economic and military strength: you can afford to pull your own weight, and you can defend your ability to do so. Any other, more sentimental thinking on this - is drivel only.

Dependency is something that you need to be able to afford. And if cou cannot afford it, forget independence. You are not independent if you depend.

[Catfish]

^ True in the major scope, but regarding independence and the UK being "one nation" you should ask Ireland and Scotland (and even Wales) and especially England what they think of this ;)
Ireland, Scotland and Wales are still treated as lesser members by Whitehall, always good for votes at least until now but not for real improvement and development; held short intentionally or so it looks from here.

If you say they have to make their kowtos because they cannot pay their bills alone i take it this is not the criterium for all considerations. And Ireland of course could pay, Scotland would have to think and make plans itself for a change; they have oil, whisky, a lot of resources (from geological advantages, to fish, to tourism). Unless this planning happens they are probably better suited where they are now.
I do not think the UK construction is an entirely bad thing, but then it is basically what 51 percent of England criticises the EU for, like you can see HERE (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2751608&postcount=13890) :D

Brexit is through in all possible meanings of this word, and thus hardly worth posting in the news over here anymore. A bit different than in England and the UK for obvious reasons. And a lot of english goods, spare parts etc do not reach Ireland anymore (and vice versa), and (from own experience) Germany. Also a friend waiting for his paid Jag E windscreen since at least five months because of "trade problems". This alone does would not spoil the big picture, but i guess it is true for a lot of branches and trade.

I wished (and still do) the people in the nations of the UK all the best, but seeing this government of England making decisions for the others, and hearing its "arguments", excuses and accusations, it is enough to raise hell in the most calm chaps.
Cannot blame any man or woman over there to hate the EU if i see the yellow press and what is perpetrated on the people; it seems there are no media even trying to be neutral or true, from Express to The Sun to the Daily Mail, to whatever and the day videos.
Instead they try to arouse hate, using loaded and fighting words, lying unashamed and openly.. even russian lies and desinformation is welcomed if it helps to stir the pot and divert public opinion against the EU.

Also interesting to see Johnson boast over his personal [sic!] "victory" over the Corona virus, instead of bothering with "the war", for a change.

I had (being completely off my trolley of course) expected to see Johnson a bit more humble knowing the vaccine with which he "won" being invented in Germany, instead selling it as a personal or "national" win, while buying out the market using nationalist egoism and tricks. But then for him it's either a game or a war going on.

[Catfish]

"Biden, Johnson to stress close ties, manage differences"

Article gets interesting further south :)

https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-joe-biden-business-global-trade-brexit-ed26413ada5c6b78fe4bc43e37a2c862

[Jimbuna]

Like in case of a German referendum not all 16 federla states would have independent votes and some states would leave the Eu and some wopuld stay, but all 16, under thre German flag would be united a sone in such a vote, Scotland, wale,s Northern Ireland and England were untied as one nation in the Brexit vote.

Its double standards to demand that eahc of these four regions should be treated as if they were 4 independent states. They are not, they are one. And in this one nation, a short majority voted Yes.

Live with it, Catfish. A majority of the UK population said Yes to Brexit. A majority of the UK population. The UK is not four nations, but one. Like Germany is not 16 nations, but one.

When any of the Gemrna federla states or the four UK regions becomes fully independent - then, and not one day earlier, the argument you raise makes kind of sense.

Personally , if the Irish or Scots would want to leave, I support them, as a loibertarian I respect the right for self-administration. But not if they cannot pay their bills on their own, but expect others to pay for them. Expect us, that is. A nation that cannot live by its own means, is not independent, even if it declares independence. It is indeed very dependent then. Independency is not a formality only. Its economic and military strength: you can afford to pull your own weight, and you can defend your ability to do so. Any other, more sentimental thinking on this - is drivel only.

Dependency is something that you need to be able to afford. And if cou cannot afford it, forget independence. You are not independent if you depend.

Spoken like a true Brit :yeah:

[Jimbuna]

Looking at the picture of the G7 leaders in the article below gets me thinking why there are eight people.

Why Von Der Leyen when Italy, France and Germany are already present?

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-politics-57427205

[mapuc]

^ Maybe EU want to send a signal by this.

Could be that EU wants to tell US and rest of the world that despite member states in EU are somehow free-We are united as one European continent.= USE
United States of Europe

Back to UK-I.L issue.

Does anyone of you have a crystal ball ? If so can you tell me what kind of relation there will be 10-20 years from now between Britain/N.I and Ireland

Markus

[Catfish]

Spoken like a true Brit :yeah:
Only a brit could understand this as a "compliment" :O:
So the UK is one nation :hmmm: Well i already commented this.

[Jimbuna]

Only a brit could understand this as a "compliment" :O:
So the UK is one nation :hmmm: Well i already commented this.

"United Kingdom" was established/became official in 1801

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6B5WQ6yMQI

[Gorpet]

I must say,Boris did a good job of keeping his wife away from our Joe. I have know idea why our "Queen" aka First lady Jill showed up with her 1968 love jacket on.But these old politician family's we have here in the USA live in their own Bubbles that can never be broken. And they must survive on the backs of those they promised everything they cant deliver. Just as your Politicians over there do.
So for the rats that support them let's get up tomorrow and work another 15 hr day so they can live in their bubble's fly in their jets. Cruise on their yachts. Live with unlimited electrical power and tell you, bicycle,walk and buy blankets in the summer so you don't freeze in the winter. and learn to eat Kale, while they eat lobster.
Yes the G7 was so transparent it was held in private so no citizen that they represented could hear what the beautiful and so smart had to say. About what the hell their going to do about Us. Well all i have to say is... look back in history and you will see the future.
I say if your a Politician you have 10 years . Then you rejoin the people and live by the laws you your self have passed . And when you and your family are hungry there will be a biskit on the table of those you thought were nothing but the ants. That Karl Marx sat on a bench and looked down at the ant and thought if i can make a country just like those ants... it will be a perfect society.

[Skybird]

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/06/12/media/gb-news-launch-uk/index.html

Popcorn loaded, unlocked, ready: let the wars begin.

[Jimbuna]

Macron told Johnson he is ready to initiate a "reset" of Franco-British relations if the UK respects the Brexit deal, French sources say

I wonder.....will that be before or after they send the next bunch of illegal immigrant boats across the channel :hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

I really don't see Poland leaving because they have far too much to lose.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-_4JvrCJjM

[Moonlight]

Here in the UK the Tory government find it difficult to please all 4 countries that make up the UK, just imagine the nightmares the EURO bigwigs have of trying to please 27 of them. :haha:

I've been dusting my crystal balls off, yes Catfish, we Brexiteers have shinier balls than you EURO lot have. :haha:
I see some dark shadows looming over the horizon for the EU, starting with the elections in Germany and gathering force with the elections in France, prepare yourselves for some monumental storms. :O:

Hey this Nostradamus ‎Prophecy thingie is bleeding easy, I think I might be the next big thing you know, and just remember, you heard it here first. :haha:

[Skybird]

Somebody is paving the way for making breaking the NI protocol a permanent thing.
I know I said it often enough, but you shouldn't have signed that thing, dear PM - what else is there to say? Now the UK has no other choice than to break it and take the blame for it. Must have been a deep, deep coma that protocol was signed in. Or was it an early taste of long Covid?

From the BBC newsticker:

"But the Northern Ireland Protocol has strained that agreement and now risks causing a trade war between the UK and EU.But UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson told BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg there was a "lot of misunderstanding" around the EU over the issue.Quote Message: "I think that to be fair there's quite a lot of misunderstanding around the EU about the situation in Northern Ireland, the balance of the Good Friday Agreement, the peace process. I was just in a gentle way getting across what that means and I think that we'll have some pragmatic solutions. "I think that to be fair there's quite a lot of misunderstanding around the EU about the situation in Northern Ireland, the balance of the Good Friday Agreement, the peace process. I was just in a gentle way getting across what that means and I think that we'll have some pragmatic solutions.

Quote Message: And if we don't then I think that what our friends have also understood is that it's the prime duty of the UK government to uphold the territorial integrity of the United Kingdom and that is what we're going to do and we'll do whatever it takes to ensure that. And if we don't then I think that what our friends have also understood is that it's the prime duty of the UK government to uphold the territorial integrity of the United Kingdom and that is what we're going to do and we'll do whatever it takes to ensure that."

[Catfish]

The fact that there are some things going wrong in the EU has clouded the fact there is a lot worse going on in the UK.

[Moonlight]

^I know what's wrong with our government Catfish, Bozo Johnson is a lying corrupt bastard, Priti bloody useless Patel is a super currant and Matt Hancock is a bleeding pensioner killer.
I have no idea if the above is what you're referring to so please enlighten me if you know something else that I don't know, you never know I might even agree with you for once. :haha:

[Catfish]

Your leaders are not in charge. The 'leaders' who created the situation have jumped ship in 2016. They should have put those in charge who created it, Rees-Mogg, Cummings, Farage, those ugly faces of brexit, and they should get the fire they deserve.
I like Boris, he is entertaining, not openly aggressive (though i think he is a real right a$$hole when it comes to women, having a leading job, getting to power, and clear the table off competition), and sympathetically undiscerning. I still have no idea what he has to do with government (i guess Eton is the prerequistion but still i do not understand this here), but it sure was fun in a way.

[Jimbuna]

@Sky....you are quite correct in stating that the Northern Ireland Protocol should never have been agreed to. Someone certainly took their eye off the ball there.

The current position is simple in a sense and is adequately explained by the Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab in an interview he gave this morning.

A few of excerpts:

"EU figures talk about N Ireland as if it were somehow a different country from the UK."

"No one should be surprised by these reports and it's not just one figure.

We have serially seen senior EU figures talk about Northern Ireland as if it were somehow a different country from the UK."

"Could you imagine if we talked about Catalonia, the Flemish part of Belgium, one of the Lander in Germany, northern Italy, Corsica in France as different countries?"

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-dominic-raab-calls-for-respect-from-eu-figures-amid-northern-ireland-protocol-row-12331428

The simple fact of the matter is that Brits are becoming tired of the whole shenanigan from both sides and will eventually put pressure on the muppets who purport to govern us to bring matters to an end.

UK sovereignty is non negotiable and if that means ripping up the agreement then so be it.

I find it sadly amusing that a continent which required so much effort and expense to be saved less than a century ago now sees fit to band together in an effort to become a super state (I think it inappropriate to mention those of such minute stature in both size and economy but we can all name them).

I find it even sadder that it is your country in the main which is bankrolling it at the expense of future generations.

Whatever happened to the original concept of free trade amongst equals?

What we have now is mainly unelected officials in top positions interfering in the internal mechanisms of countries they have no business in.

The United Kingdom will not bow before those bullies and my vote as always will be one of opposition to such challenges.

[Jimbuna]

Food for thought.

G7 summit: China says small groups do not rule the world

China has warned the G7 leaders that the days when a "small" group of countries decided the fate of the world were long gone.

The comments, by a spokesman for the Chinese embassy in London, come as the leaders, who are meeting in England, seek a unified position over China.

They adopted a spending plan in response to a massive Chinese scheme.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57458822

[MGR1]

No doubt China's line would be different if they were part of the clique, but they're not a democracy so tough boobies.

Mike.

[Moonlight]

A spending plan is going to possibly cost trillions in the long run, what's wanted is a united front from the leaders and then they can cut off China's source of wealth, that's going to take some massive balls and I'm sorry to say that the western leaders don't have any. :O:

[Catfish]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-56678489

"Border poll

The British government accuses them of being deaf to the needs of Unionists and of putting the interests of those who care more about Northern Ireland's relationship with Ireland ahead of those who care about its relationship with Great Britain.

UK ministers say the EU gave Unionists another reason to be upset by almost accidentally suspending the Protocol in January when it was designing a mechanism to screen exports of Coronavirus vaccines.

The EU quickly corrected its mistake and apologised. Officials in Brussels say privately that the problems in Northern Ireland are because the UK was not honest about the changes that were coming and acted too late to minimise their impact.

The biggest question of all is the degree to which the implementation of the Brexit deal affects the number of Northern Irish citizens saying they would like to be part of Ireland.

British law compels the Northern Ireland Secretary to hold a referendum - a border poll - if there is evidence that a majority of the population wants reunification.

Opinion polls suggest a small but growing minority in favour but the law is silent about what evidence should be considered or how a vote would work.

This potential break-up of the UK is why the technical details of the Brexit deal matter to politicians in London, Belfast, Dublin and Brussels.

And to people on the streets in Newtownabbey, Carrickfergus, Ballymena and Londonderry."

[Skybird]

Whatever happened to the original concept of free trade amongst equals?
"Equals"...?
There are those who think it is their job to eölevate bthenmsloeves above all others, call them the noble men, and there are those who are intended to be their serfs. Like in the medievals. Euqlai8t yis not on the agenda. Never was, I have come to start thinking. Equality does not allow control, control is a must for power, power is what its about.





What we have now is mainly unelected officials in top positions interfering in the internal mechanisms of countries they have no business in.

Thats exactly the EU. They are servants, secretaires. They behave as if they were bosses and heads of a state.


I said it many timers: let there be a free t5rade zone in Europe and across the Atlantic. Not Africa or the ME. Europe and North America. Let that be the EU. Let there be the will and the ability tio miolitarily defend this free trade zone and the freedom in its zone, make the NATO powerful enough for that again. ECB, Euro, Maastricht and one currency - all the many other things the fat cats in Brussels have uttered in power claims and powers - throw it into the waste bin of history, its not wanted, its not needed, it never was any good idea. Its what will bring destruction over Europe. Over Europe, because Europe and the EU are two totally different things. I am pro-Europe - but therefore I necessarily must be anti-EU. I would contradict myself if I would say the two are the same. They are antagonists.



The EU has turned into the perfect anti-thesis to "Europe", destroying, denying, rejecting everything that makes Europe "Europe", no matter whether in good or bad.


Very Sovjet. Very Chinese KP. When I look at Brussels, I have deja vus.

[Catfish]

[...]
Quote:
What we have now is mainly unelected officials in top positions interfering in the internal mechanisms of countries they have no business in.
[...]
Please not again :dead::roll:

But then, "SPOKEN LIKE A TRUE BRIT!" :O:

[Skybird]

That quote is by Jim, not me, but he is right, and yes, he is a true Brit as well.



Brussels is "Kungel im Hinterzimmer hinter verschlossenen Türen". Personal networking and contacts is all, ability, intelligence, competence mean nothing. Lopok at the current lead perosnnel. Allm you can do is laughing tears, and then crying tears, and then hope that you wake up and it is over.

[Catfish]

That quote is by Jim, not me, but he is right, [...]
Isser, echt? How does the EU challenge England's or the UK's (!) "sovereignty"? He said again that the UK is one country. Is it also one nation? Or isn't it basically the same as any other conglomerate of nations joining to be stronger(?), here of course with a kingdom in the background :hmmm:

The UK is a conglomerate of "countries within a country", so all of them have to give away a part of their sovereignty to the "UK".
Other than North Ireland the Republic of Ireland does not belong to the UK.

If brexit leads to a border around the UK, being erected because its "sovereignty" demands it, this effectively means a border between North Ireland belonging to the UK and the Republic of Ireland being a sovereign independent state. Clear as mud as what happens to the good friday agreement, but it is a result of brexit.

[Skybird]

Sigh.

Double standards.

I agree only on the part of what a border between NI and RoI means. Was clear since years. Like Germany would not accept that Brussels demands for exmaple the Freistaat Bayern beign extracted form the federal state by raising its own custom regime at the border and independent form the Germanborders, the UZK cannot accepot the same demanded over NI.

As long as Bavarians or NIers do not have a referendum and leave their national unions.

This Good Friday agreement cannot have been much a solid thing if it is so easily to be kicked off balance. Solution: Some Irelanders have some brain growing. Historical nationalistic eye-poking "Our Dads once kicked your Dads' lower bottoms long, long time ago" and religious hatred lead nobody nowhere. Plant brains in heads.

[Catfish]

^ yes, all sides obviously.

Let me try to understand this.
So the EU wants border control because of goods and controls like with all their other trade partners that are not in the EU.

England/UK wants borders everywhere but just not here, because that threatens the good friday agreement and has already led to shortages and disruptions. Seems no one in the UK saw this coming, not prepared for brexit, but ok the EU is so lenient and blah.

On the other hand it should be just of all England/UK erecting borders between North Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, because England/UK wants sovereignty everywhere – just not here.
Surely they cannot deny others what they themselves .. but it is England .. ok lol.

So let's say England/UK eventually breaks the treaty, inhowfar will this change the situation? Free flow of trade goods between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland (member of the EU) then. What about UK sovereignty then?

[Skybird]

The UK does want border routines in the middle of its nation as much as Germany wants customs unions between Thuringia and Bavaria, or Berlin and Meck-Pomm.

Brussels sees the opportunity to put pressure on London here by insisting there have to be customs, either between RoI and NI, or internally inside the UK between the big isle and NI.

Obviously there must be some kind of customs between the EU and UK. The EU wanst the UK to compromise territorial integrity on behalf of the Good Friday agreement, for this woudl mean damage to the sovereignty claim of London, would be a dimplatic defeat. London wants not threatening the "peace" in Ireland, but also does not accept a compromising of its territorial integrity: no sovereign nation could do that.

The rational solution obviously is to have border checks between RoI, an EU state, and NI, because between these two it is where the border between the UK and the block is located. So there, at that border, the customs duties have to be done. No-brainer.

So, the solution is to have them there - without some crazy Irishmen freaking out over it.

The problem is two-fold. London signed something of which they - stupidly - hoped the EU would not mercilessly press for, and the other problem is the instable sentimental attitude of the Irish over past things long lost in history.

What can be done NOW? Obviously London has no other choice, it almost must a.) break this part of the treaty they signed , the NI protocol, and it must b.) accept being blamed for violating treaties and earning the reputation of maybe not being seen as a trustworthy signator of future treaties. As I said many times before: they should never have signed this crappy Brexit deal. There is a reason why in brussel the champagne was flowign when it became known the Brits would sign this NI protocol - they knew they had the Brits by their balls with that one. Why Johnson did not see this, will remain his secret forever, I think.

The Brits do surprisingly well,btw, different to the gloomy picture EU media try to paint fo them. While they have problems, they are not as big as one expected (even hoped) for, and their foreigng trade relations have improved dramatically and to a degree that Brussel can just watch with envy. It seems right what the EU wanted to prevent ar all cost - Brexit leading to an economical success story - in the aftermath of Covid could become a reality. Too early to call it already a big success, but thing slook better than in Europe, and than expected. Thats the worst outcome possible - from Brussel'S perspective. I remind of the Swiss vote recently, and the growing dissatisfaction with the EU in Norway and Iceland.

Merkel'S time is finally over, and Macron may think it now is the hour of France. A nightmare for German payers. The more blocked and stuck things become in Brussel, the cheaper for net payers, and the greater the chance that people wake up and see the EU for what it really is. It seesm without big crisis and spectacular drama the eu cannot get overcome. So be it, let the drama have its way - the worse, the better. Better an end with horrors than horror without end.

[Catfish]

So, is the Republic of Ireland a member of the UK or is it sovereign?
Because this is what it is about. I guess the whole Ireland question is a never ending weaseling-around since ..centuries.

[Skybird]

??


The RoI is a member of the EU and its sovereignty as a national state ends where the EU rules it has to, while NI is a member of the UK. The borders between the UK and the EU obviously are seated right on the borders between the RoI and NI. And there it is where any border regimes and routines should be located.

[Catfish]

??
The RoI is a member of the EU and its sovereignty as a national state ends where the EU rules it has to, while NI is a member of the UK. The borders between the UK and the EU obviously are seated right on the borders between the RoI and NI. And there it is where any border regimes and routines should be located.

Yes, only that the UK or in this case England cannot allow this without breaking the good friday agreement. So they let the trading goods pass with their prolonged "grace period" with less or no control thus keeping the good friday agreement, but violating the treaty they signed.

And if they really intend to breach the latter (and let them do it for whatever's sake) what does this mean then to "sovereignty" of the UK, or the ROI? Right, there is no "sovereignty" then. Not this nor that way.
This word is as sharp as a knife on which you can ride to Laramie.

[Skybird]

The RoI is limited in its sovereignty by EU laws and treaties, much like other member states as well. The RoI cannot even negotiate certain kinds of treaties by itsself anymore, not to mention breaking them. However the disoute is not between the UK and the RoI, but the UK and the EU. The UK may or may not break a treaty, it may or may not sign treaties and negotiate them before - but in any of these it demonstrates that it not only does not want but also must not ask Brussel for permission, but does what it wants anyway. Which in any conetsallaiton is sovereignity. They would compromise it if they allow Brussel to force them erecting international borders within their own state, that is a border regime between NI and the big isle.

Yes, one can scratch one's head over why they signed that NI protocol. Only one thing would be a sign of lacking sovereignty that you implied to exist in your post: if they would obey it.

Thats why I do not expec them to obey it. Obeing it would thwart a major argument for Brexit. Even Johnson cannot afford that, although they seem to let him get away with a lot.

[Catfish]

That is not the point. Once more:

IF the UK wants to have sovereignty, it has to introduce border controls, without this there is no sovereignty.
And if it thus erects border controls towards the EU, this border has to be between the ROI and Northern Ireland.

Now it seems it is rather the EU that wants controls of goods, if not a hard border. While the UK should want a border because of the urge to control possible immigrants or whatever (= sovereignty), but cannot afford it due to the good friday agreement.

So if the UK does not want any controlling border between the UK and the EU (read: the ROI which is not a member of the UK) and thus no controlling immigration (or for whatever they wanted brexit), how can this be UK "sovereignty" then? It makes no sense even if they break the treaty.

[Skybird]

Like Bavaria and Thiuringia want no hard border with customs and migraiton control, the UK wants no internal border between two if its regions. But there are borders between the United Kingdom and external nations lik ethere are b etween Germany and Austria. Or, sicne that comaorsions lacks, between lets say Poland and Belarus, the former being a EU member and the latter not.



What have custom declarations on imports and exports to do with Brussels dictate of free migration movement?


The brits called for "pragmatic solutions" on the Irish situation. Which means they can probably happily live without sausage customs and all that. They do not want giving contorl of their borders on travelling and non-Irish import.exprt exchnages, however. Brussel links the one to the other, like they link evertyhing in one big pck and say "No trading with us without acceptance of all the other stuff we insist on and that has nothing to do with trade, too". Migration. EU-wide call for bids. Planned mandatory participation in the Euro-zone. European courts being the king of the hill. Brussel demanding sovereignty over 90% of natiponbaol law-making. Or in germany's case: disempowerement of national consittional high courts. And so forth.


The brits are open for shortcut solutions on Ireland. Its the Niorther Ireland bnaitonapsits and the EUcrats rejecting it.



But the situsaiton ahs beehn allowed by ALL sides to distort so miuch that nothign cna be fixed herer withoizut breaking plenty of porcellaine.



Whioch was to be expected, and I expect much more glass broken thna just over the NI protocol. The french and Brussel are out for a fight, and the eU will nenver forgive the stubborn UK islanders their sacrileg of leaving the bog happy family. The illusion got a serious crack, and this will never be forgiven or forogtten. Thwe offense roots deep. Telling the EU that it is not wonderful and all-wanted? What a sacrileg...!
Finally, a deterring precedence must be created so that no EU victim, I mean member, will ever dare to think of leaving again.


Johnson acted naive on NI. But the EU - and Paris, which is not that much a difference - want blood and are out to maximise the damage, to deliver the UK and all others a hurting lesson. That this was apparently underestimated, this is what founds Johnson's naivety. I cannot see other motives why he underestimated this. The EU has him by his balls over the protocol, and they will not let go, but squeeze as hard as they can.



Press your lips together and try to smile, Boris. :03: You gotta go through this.

[mapuc]

If I understand it correctly The Ireland-N.I border issue is UK's gothic knots(I think you call it)

Markus

[MGR1]

Gordian knot.

NI is the UK's Tar Baby, the Unionists are rabidly pro-British but it's a form of Britishness that very few on the mainland want anything to do with.

Mike.

[Jimbuna]

@Sky (in particular)

Firstly, let me apologise for the time lapse since I last posted on this thread but can honestly say I was initially unaware of the volume of responses since said post.

Secondly, I must admit you have me in almost total awe at the quality and detail of your responses so I thank you for making it possible for me to respond in a few lines prior to watching the Spain v Sweden game.

Needless to say I agree with a great deal of what you posted and to be as succinct as I am able it is simply a case of the EU trying to teach the UK a lesson in the eyes of the world for fear of more nations leaving their cosy little club.

The NI protocol boils down to the simple truth that neither the ROI or UK want a hard border but because it goes against the grain of the interfering would be nanny state (EU)

Don't anyone forget what the UK Foreign Secretary said of the EU yesterday

"EU figures talk about N Ireland as if it were somehow a different country from the UK."

"No one should be surprised by these reports and it's not just one figure.

We have serially seen senior EU figures talk about Northern Ireland as if it were somehow a different country from the UK."

"Could you imagine if we talked about Catalonia, the Flemish part of Belgium, one of the Lander in Germany, northern Italy, Corsica in France as different countries?"
https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-dominic-raab-calls-for-respect-from-eu-figures-amid-northern-ireland-protocol-row-12331428

My message to the EU is simple....."You want a hard border? How about you come over and try to build one?"

[Catfish]

You are all evading the question :)
If you introduce nations that have borders you have to accept the political consequences.

re Skybird; while Thuringia and Saxony are counties belonging to one COUNTRY/NATION/STATE, the southern Republic of Ireland is sovereign, independent and an own nation. It does NOT belong to the UK.
Again, no one doubts that Northern Ireland belongs to the UK, but the ROI does NOT.
The Republic of Ireland is NOT a part of the UK, but Northern Ireland IS.
Again, no one denies that Northern Ireland is part of the UK.
So while the two Irelands are geographically and logically and by its people one entity, it is politically two countries/nations/states.
Even if a majority in Northern Ireland voted against brexit, it had to follow the UK's decision to LEAVE.

So all this talk about sovereignty, the UK has it, the ROI has it, ok?
Now if this sovereignty (read: passport checks, tax goods, controlling immigration and so on) is mandatory for the UK, where does it want to perform those checks for its "sovereignty"?

At the edge to Northern Ireland in the Irish sea? Makes no sense, but this is how it being done right now, evading the problem with a border between the two Irelands.

Again: If the UK needs its sovereignty where will the controls be?
Where does the UK control immigration, tax goods from the EU, control smugglers which will of course come up now after brexit?
If at all there can only be a border between Northern Ireland and the ROI, as Sky rightly said.

And as i now say for the third time, if the UK breaks the treaty, does not install a border, does not perform passport checks and so on, and lets goods freely flow between the UK and the EU across an open Ireland border without controls, where does it check EU imports, where does it control immigration, where does it execute its sovereignty? What kind of sovereignty are you talking about with such an open "border"?

It is a messed up situation alright, and the UK/England will have to solve it at some point.

[Skybird]

Northern Ireland is part of the UK. Whether the Republic of Ireland is an independent nation or a green tennis ball, doesn't matter as long as the Irelands do not unite, and NI leaves the kingdom.



What things a nation does at its borders, is said nation's business. They can implement controls, or not. They can wave through migrants or goods or sausages, or not. What a wannabe superstate in some other part of the world thinks iother nations should want to do at their border, does not matter.


The only issue here is that Johnson signed something that he could not hold. If he had not signed it, there would be no rule whatever - as you imply - that he must order custom controls at a border, or not. Brussle cna only demand the 'Republic of Ireland doing this or that ion iuts side of the border. But its no external's business what the UK does at its borders, on its side of the border. Execpot this stupid thign with the Iriosah border, where they agreed a special treaty, a protocol, that part of the Uk should be treated in a schizophrenic comedy of absurdity to please Breussels, to mock Londown , and to appease backwardly Irish natioinalists.



The only issue here is that he signed the NI protocol although he should and could have known that this could not stand by it. You make it appear as if evben without that thjer ewould be somethign ike an intwenratioanlylly accept habit that London must do this or that on its side of the borders it has. This is not so.



The simple truth is he picked the easy and tempting way, hoping to release it by that the EU would not take the invitation to project max pressure over it. Which of course it does, however. He could have known it. God knows what devil has ridden him. Naivety at its best.



I in his place would not have signed the NI protocol. Which would have made the EU not accepting the rest of the Brexit treaty. which would have meant that there would have been no treaty. What I would have been okay with. Which would have meant there are a solid border between both Irelands, and customs and controls, so the UK wishes, on the British side of that border. What the EU and the RoI would have done on its side of the border, would have been their business.


Fact is the EU does not give much for the Good Friday peace status, obviously, if it rates the chance to put London under pressure as so much more relevant than accepting a pragmatic compromise on this certain border, and by that helping to keep that Good Friday status. Brussels hopes that London must break under the pressure. London hopes that brussel breaks under the creation of facts. Which is all as great a miscalculation as was Johnson'S expectation that the EU would play kind.


The French expectation to be co-owneers of Breitish fishing waters, and the EU'S ever raising demands on paper war that bogs down British expoprts toi the contient, are other exmaples of that the EU is not playing fairly or constructively. As a British exporter said in a business docu on I think Euronews two or three weeks agto: today it takes a frtaction fot he time to exprt to the US, and it also costs only a frraciton of the money, that it takes to exporetr on the toher side of the channel. Anbd you cna beg that this is a situation that not London has toguht outk but Brussel - THEY demand all this paper war, not so much London.



That businessman laughed, however. He said he had to change ways, but now sells more, all in all, by shifting his focus to trade with the US. He has stopped trading with Europe completely, he said. Some food stuff it was.



How many trade deals has Britain signed in the past 6 months since Brexit? I stopped counting. What has Brussle acchieve dint he same time. Was not worth counting.


And another thing. More and more Britoish peopoel must get pissed by the European. And the UK is pratcially the only war-reay,. by quality war-capable military in Eurooe, beside Turkey, and I see the Turks as unrerlaible "allies". The brits have the best electrionic intel and psissivbly the best human intel service in europe-. Thjeir expertiose in terms for European security, cannoit be replayced. Their armed forces may have become too small now to be globally relevant anymore in any furtutre bigger war, like they played a role in Iraq 91, still: in place, in that corner of th eEuzropean co9ntinent, in thgat close-by ocean, they cnanot be replaced.


Its stupid to risk these ressources going amiss just for the cause of lecturing a people for having done a free choice. One day they may have the nose spo full of the continent that they turn their back on it completely, security-wise, police-wise, military-wise, intel-wise. I do not see Europe could afford that loss.

[Catfish]

I think your first five paragraphs are at least dealing with what i asked (if once more eavding the question), the rest is your opinion.
It is about the fact and question how he UK's "sovereignty" shall be actively handled and executed by themselves in Ireland. But there are only loaded words and opinions, and a cloudy idea of what sovereignty means. And it seems Johnson is not only unprepared, he has no idea.

[...]I in his place would not have signed the NI protocol. Which would have made the EU not accepting the rest of the Brexit treaty. which would have meant that there would have been no treaty. What I would have been okay with. Which would have meant there are a solid border between both Irelands, and customs and controls, so the UK wishes, on the British side of that border. What the EU and the RoI would have done on its side of the border, would have been their business.
You are aware what this means for the good friday agreement, and the nationalist movement.

It is ok with me if they break the treaty, i just ask what people think will happen then. If they have their border control even only (lol) on the british side (Northern Ireland) all hell will break loose.

The UK cannot execute their idea of border control without breaking the irish agreement. And if they do not implement their border control on their side (or on the moon i don't care) because they want to keep the peace, what is this control and sovereignty idea all about?
The whole idea is flawed.

[Skybird]

I already have repeatedly adressed the lose ends you imply. You just do not like my answers. Well, maybe I do not like them either. But that does not matter. What I like things to be, and what they are, and what they likely turn for, are three very different things. :03: Of these three, my likings are the one thing most unimportant in all this.

[Moonlight]

I don't believe the Republic of Ireland or the EU would want an hot potato like Northern Ireland landing in their lap, me thinks they will do anything for that not to happen, even agreeing to whatever the UK proposes to do on the matter.

If that sets off the troubles again you can put the blame entirely on the EU for being so bloody minded about it.

[mapuc]

I'm glad I don't sit at the negotiation table- They have a hard work in front of them.

Markus

[Jimbuna]

what is this control and sovereignty idea all about?


It is about ownership of sovereignty and having the choice to determine how it is implemented, not dictated to by a foreign entity.

[Jimbuna]

If that sets off the troubles again you can put the blame entirely on the EU for being so bloody minded about it.

That is precisely what would most likely happen.

[Catfish]

It is about ownership of sovereignty and having the choice to determine how it is implemented, not dictated to by a foreign entity.
"Dictated by a foreign entity?" This is from 2016:

"Unlike most other EU member states—and some countries outside the EU—the UK is not part of the Schengen passport-free area (http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/index_en.htm) because it hasn’t signed the Schengen agreement (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=URISERV%3Al33020). This means (http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/index_en.htm) it can retain border controls.
[...]
Controls at the UK border
The British government retains full control over its own border controls. Travellers who hold EU passports can’t cross the UK border without having their passport or identity checked, and the same applies for travellers from non-EU countries.

The exception is people travelling over the Northern Ireland-Ireland border where there are no border checks.

The UK can, and does, perform passport and identity checks at its borders and refuses entry to travellers who do not travel with valid identity documents even if (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/eea-nationals-eun01/eea-nationals-eun01) they are from another EU member state."

- https://fullfact.org/europe/border-security-eu/

"The fact is that we do already control our borders: we monitor our sea crossings, airports, the Channel Tunnel and that we impose passport controls on arrivals from every other country (except Ireland)"
- If you think we need to 'take back control' of our borders, you don't understand what that actually means (https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-customs-union-and-single-market-freedom-movement-immigration-border-control-what-does-it-mean-a7819186.html)

And this all was BEFORE brexit.
The UK has always controlled its borders, and it always kept its sovereignty.
If you want to make "deals" or treaties with other nations and people, all sides have to agree to some degree to be able to trade. If you call this "giving away sovereignty" you have to reread what that means, especially when the WTO rules over you.

So can you tell me where and when the UK did not have control before brexit and whether it now wants to extend its border controls/sovereignty to the irish borders, or doesn't it all remain as it is and was since decades?
Because this border in Ireland was and is the only free border, in the UK.

[Skybird]

Ach, Catfish... :timeout: Rhetorical prestidigations. Think of enforced mas smigration. Enforced free access to labour market. Enforced EU-wide call for bids. After that column has drivne through, not much of your borders and sovereignty is left.

Meanwhile, in another part of the tiny universe, Die Welt writes:

The transfer of wealth by the ECB and the EU contrary to the treaty will not save Europe -

Although the EU treaties prohibit its own indebtedness, the Commission is in the process of doing just that. Parliaments and courts provide protection in circumventing and defending European law. That will backfire. -

After the Second World War, the project of the unification of Europe was the wise answer to the revenge of the victors over the conquered after the First World War, crystallized in the Treaty of Versailles. The execution of vengeance led to the next war, the project of unification for a peaceful and prosperous Europe. -

French politicians were decisive for both development paths: Raymond Poincaré for the first and Charles de Gaulle for the second. But French European policy has always been dominated by the desire to take the lead on the continent. -

While peace and prosperity were created through the legally anchored free movement of goods, services, capital and people while respecting the sovereignty of the nation states, the French claim to leadership demanded political centralization. A single currency, wrested from the French President Mitterrand from the German Chancellor Kohl during the turbulent times of German reunification, was intended to serve as a means of achieving this. -

But the pressure exerted by the single currency to centralize elementary areas of national sovereignty is countered by the legal framework created for freedom and prosperity. The logical consequence would be to let the peoples of the European Union vote on the replacement of the existing legal framework by a European federal state. -

However, since this would not find a majority among the citizens of the nation states, the political elites are trying to achieve their goal of centralization by circumventing and bending European law. In doing so, docile courts of law provide them with support. We are experiencing how this works right here and now. -

Although the European Treaties prohibit the Union from borrowing itself, the European Commission is in the process of doing just that. From July onwards, money will mainly flow into the coffers of states whose citizens could otherwise question the benefits of the EU. This includes countries such as Italy and France, but also Spain, Poland and Hungary. -

And although the ECB is expressly forbidden to create new money for the states, it continues unmoved with its large-volume purchases of government bonds. Parliaments and courts accept explanations for these Orwellian “double-talk” -style purchases as instruments of monetary policy. For any economist with common sense, however, they are clearly recognizable as the financing of over-indebted states. -

Political centralization, enforced against the will of the citizens and the infraction of European law will ultimately lead to the disintegration of the Union. “Brexit” was the first step on this path. Instead of seeing the UK's exit as the answer to their disastrous policies, European leaders have belittled it. Possibly they believe in the Babylonian captivity of the other big net payer, Germany, in the EU. -

But disaster threatens from another side. In France, Marine Le Pen could move into the Elysée Palace next year, and in Italy, Giorgia Meloni is waiting for the right moment to conquer Palazzo Chigi. Would more money help convince the women of further EU membership? And whether Federal Chancellor Laschet would continue to provide backing for the ECB's money printing machine and a handle in the pocket of the German taxpayer?

[Catfish]

[...]Think of enforced mas smigration. Enforced free access to labour market. Enforced EU-wide call for bids. After that column has drivne through, not much of your borders and sovereignty is left.
I guess your main source of information must be The Sun or the UK Express, not the NZZ. Did you happen to read the links i posted in those 30 seconds?
"MASS MIGRATION", "ENFORCED", Britain is being RAPED, FOREIGNERS, you sound like Farage's Nazi placard :)

[MGR1]

I do think that there should perhaps be a separate EU thread. No offence to Catfish or Skybird but their arguments about what the EU is or isn't is derailing what is meant to be a thread about British politics.

There is quite a lot going on here but since it's mainly Jim, Moonlight and me (sporadically) that's posting I'd hazard a guess that most of the UK SubSim members aren't terribly bothered about what our political representatives are up to.

Maybe pop this thread on "furlough" for a bit?

Mike.:hmmm:

[Moonlight]

^I second that, :up: Perhaps we should banish those two to the German thread if they don't want to create a new EU thread.
Reading all the nonsense Catfish posts about the EU and Brexit anyone would think he hasn't got anything better to do, it's France vs Germany tonight Catfish, do us a favour and bloody watch it will you. :O:

You can tell us who were the biggest prats after the game. :D

[Jimbuna]

Both points taken but having looked back over this thread it appears obvious that Brexit has been an almost constant theme throughout the thread.

There is nothing to stop anyone from adding different topics in this thread provided there is a UK connection and currently the EU in general is certainly that.

[Skybird]

I think the bickering between Catfish and me, focussing on the eU and its relaiton to the UK, and may attitude toiwards the UK and the eU, both are hgard to realyl be seen comeoltely unrelated to UK topics. Like it or not, but the things I and Catfish bring up, touch upon UK realities for better or worse. Thats why I post it here. In fact some other EU stuff I post in the German thread, the economy thread, or elsewise.


I agree however that with Catfish and the EU I have become a runner in circles, like he has with the UK and Jim and me, too.



Very passionate disagreements from all participating debators here, we cannot help it.

[Catfish]

^ I agree, for once :03:

However i only mentioned the buzzword "sovereignty" and "brexit", and what i asked has not much to do with the EU. And I would prefer if Jim or someone from the UK directly answered or debated e.g. this post (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2752650&postcount=13944), instead of Skybird answering and diluting direct questions :D

But it's all good, and no harm intended :salute:

[Moonlight]

That link to that post of yours is what's gone wrong with this thread, you and Skybird are forever nit picking about things we leave to the politicians, that's why they get paid the big bucks and an even bigger expenses account. If you want to write a letter to Bozo and Priti I'm sure they'll give you the Winston Churchill salute while they tuck into their £300 halibut and chips. :haha:

Perhaps you can answer a question about migrants instead Catfish.
"Why does the EU allow migrants from Africa to travel through 3 to 5 different countries without stopping them travelling by small boats across the English Channel, it's a proven fact that France's coastguard actively help them do precisely that"

Is it no wonder that we believe we are well rid of the EU and everything it stands for. :haha:

[Catfish]

That link to that post of yours is what's gone wrong with this thread, [...]
Right, because none of you want to answer it, because you can't. But when you call your sovereignty "problems" nitpicking, well i agree.
"we leave it to the politicians" = bring your politicians into an unsolvable situation so you can complain about them. Or the EU. Or whatever, but never about yourself. Having an excuse to complain and blame others seems to be the only reason for all this tosh.
On the other hand this is perfect human behaviour and (if mildly) amusing :D

Re France helping MIGRANTS to INVADE BRITAIN i bet you got this either from The Sun, UK Express or maybe Breitbart. You will not find this anywhere else :shucks:

[Moonlight]

I knew you'd swerve that question Catfish just like our left wing EU loving media does, you're both as slippery as an eel. :haha:

RECORD NUMBERS Over 5,000 migrants have made the perilous journey across Channel this year
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15288541/record-5000-migrants-priti-patel/

Have you seen the headline above Catfish, our MP's might be as bent as a butchers hook but yours are bent and they're also bloody criminals as well, aiding the transportation of migrants into the UK is a crime in the UK, apparently that's not the case in the EU.

[Catfish]

If at all i'm slippery like a catfish, not an eel ..

For the rest: Afaik there are around 1000 immigrants a month getting over the channel to England/UK, which makes the number of 5000 in june this year in your link too low, but then june is not over yet so Priti P. can still hope for more.

But please look at the details, what i wrote and doubt (and what in my humblest of opinion The Sun and the other populist yellow press lie about) is that the french coast guard intentionally "help migrants to enter the UK".

[Moonlight]

That's the trouble with you Euro nut jobs, you look but you don't see.

Here is an article from one of our worst left wing Euro newspapers who thinks the same as you do, even they couldn't deny the fact that the French were actively aiding and abetting illegal smuggling activities.

Desperate migrants helped to Britain by the French Navy amid horrific camp conditions
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/desperate-migrants-helped-britain-french-22188151

[Catfish]

It is possible, this happened in june 13th 2020? Technically the UK had not left the EU at that time, but no idea what this means to migration laws. This french type of ship is usually used to save people from drowning. I do not find anything about such an event in other media, but ok.

[MGR1]

For my part I'm rather fed up with the never ending merry-go-round that is Brexit. Being where I am in the UK I also have to put up with the never ending merry-go-round that is the Scottish Independence question.

One's bad enough, but two at the the same time.....:doh:

Mike.

[Jimbuna]

I think the bickering between Catfish and me, focussing on the eU and its relaiton to the UK, and may attitude toiwards the UK and the eU, both are hgard to realyl be seen comeoltely unrelated to UK topics. Like it or not, but the things I and Catfish bring up, touch upon UK realities for better or worse. Thats why I post it here. In fact some other EU stuff I post in the German thread, the economy thread, or elsewise.


I agree however that with Catfish and the EU I have become a runner in circles, like he has with the UK and Jim and me, too.



Very passionate disagreements from all participating debators here, we cannot help it.

^ I agree, for once :03:

However i only mentioned the buzzword "sovereignty" and "brexit", and what i asked has not much to do with the EU. And I would prefer if Jim or someone from the UK directly answered or debated e.g. this post (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2752650&postcount=13944), instead of Skybird answering and diluting direct questions :D

But it's all good, and no harm intended :salute:

I blame it all on the EU :O:

You'll never have full control of your own sovereignty if by using just one example....the UK Supreme Court can be overruled by an EU court.

[Catfish]

I blame it all on the EU :O:
no doubt :D
You'll never have full control of your own sovereignty if by using just one example....the UK Supreme Court can be overruled by an EU court.
Not by the EU :hmmm: "... both the Convention and the European Court of Human Rights exist separately from the European Union. Therefore, the situation has not changed by the UK’s exit from the European Union."

"The relationship between the UK Supreme Court and the Court of Justice of the European Union (which sits in Luxembourg) has, however, changed.
The Supreme Court can depart from decisions of the Court of Justice of the European Union taken before 11pm on 31 December 2020. This means that the Supreme Court (and other relevant UK appellate courts) will depart from a previous decision of the Luxembourg Court where it appears right to do so.

Secondly, from 11pm on 31 December 2020, all UK courts, including the Supreme Court, are no longer able or required to refer certain questions of European Union law to the Court of Justice (through what is known as "preliminary reference procedure"). There are some limited exceptions to this. For example, the UK courts, including the Supreme Court, continue to be able to refer questions to the Court of Justice of the European Union about the interpretation of the citizens' rights provisions in Part 2 of the EU-UK Withdrawal Agreement."

Not that i completely understand what the last two paragraphs include :03:

https://www.supremecourt.uk/faqs.html

[Moonlight]

When it comes down to millions of lives the WHO should keep there bleeding mouth shut and hang their heads in shame. :o

UK aid cuts risk millions of lives, warns World Health Organisation
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/uk-aid-cuts-risk-millions-of-lives-warns-world-health-organisation/ar-AAL8j2u?ocid=msedgntp

[Moonlight]

Chesham and Amersham by-election.
3 big reasons the Conservatives lost that seat to the Lib Dems, the HS2 rail line runs through the constituency and proposed planning changes are a big concern too and it's also a remainer county, carry on running roughshod over the Home Counties voters Bozo and they will kick you in the cojones.
Brexit is done and almost dusted so you can't rely on that nonsense anymore, some of your MP's will have vomited into their breakfast this morning and if you don't heed this warning shot over your bow you will lose some others as well.
There's a new strain of the China virus running through Parliament and it's almost resistant to voter logic, find a cure for it Bozo or your MP's are going to be cast out into the wilderness as unclean.

Tory HQ was outgunned by Liberal Democrat ground war in Chesham and Amersham defeat.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/tory-hq-was-outgunned-by-liberal-democrat-ground-war-in-chesham-and-amersham-defeat/ar-AALbnoU?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531

A blip or a worrying sign? Tories begin inquest after surprising by-election loss.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/a-blip-or-a-worrying-sign-tories-begin-inquest-after-surprising-by-election-loss/ar-AALaEwq?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531

[MGR1]

There do seem to be a few in the Tories who are concerned about cracks in the "Blue Wall".

https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2021/06/is-the-blue-wall-around-london-in-danger-of-cracking.html

What's happened to Labour could easily happen to them.

Mike.:hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

There do seem to be a few in the Tories who are concerned about cracks in the "Blue Wall".

https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2021/06/is-the-blue-wall-around-london-in-danger-of-cracking.html

What's happened to Labour could easily happen to them.

Mike.:hmmm:

The burning question being....who is capable of replacing them?

[Moonlight]

It doesn't have to be a single party that terrifies the conservatives, a plethora of independents plus the Lib Dems and more unlikely, but the Labour party as well could steal the blue votes.
Voters can smell fear and I've been having a chat with some of my old pals from down there in the Cotswolds and Chilterns and the word is they're going to give Bozo a torrid time over the next couple of years.
We won't hear a lot of this in the media as the conservatives will keep it under wraps but Bozo will hear the discontent and the Tory party hierarchy will as well. :haha:

[Moonlight]

This is what I've been hearing from my pals as well, Bozo the clown is in denial about it, wake up Bozo or else.

Senior Tories warn Boris Johnson ‘blue wall’ is at risk after byelection defeat
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/senior-tories-warn-boris-johnson-blue-wall-is-at-risk-after-byelection-defeat/ar-AALc4GM?ocid=msedgntp

[Jimbuna]

The government has been sent a "warning shot" by voters over planning reforms for England and the HS2 rail link, the co-chairman of the Tories has said.

Writing in the Daily Telegraph, Amanda Milling said voters' concerns were "loud and clear" after the Lib Dems won the Chesham and Amersham by-election.

She said the Conservatives would look at how they could regain their trust.

Ms Milling said ministers needed to "shout louder" about Boris Johnson's promise to "level up" the UK.

The Liberal Democrats overturned a 16,000 majority in Thursday's by-election to take a seat that had always voted Conservative. Sarah Green won with 8,028 more votes than the Conservatives, with the Green Party in third place.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-57535928

[Moonlight]

Is D Day coming for Starmer, as a former Labour Party voter, (not recently though, well, not since that G Brown muppet took over as leader) I've been patiently waiting for the looney left to give Starmer a thick lip, it seems as if my wait is over, this is the first sign of big trouble ahead for Starmer, we will hear the death throes of the muppet soon enough, as for the looney left, they're all bloody idiots. :haha:

KEIR WE GO Humiliated Sir Keir Starmer faces being ousted already as backers of Angela Rayner plot fresh takeover bid
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/15319515/keir-starmer-labour-leader-angela-rayner-by-election/

[MGR1]

In the meantime it looks like a real "Game of Thrones" carry on for the DUP.

They get rid of Foster, now Poots has had to resign:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-57521972

What went wrong:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-57520778

Whilst the would-be puppet FM has been told he would need to go when the DUP find a new leader:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-57538844

Mike.:nope:

[Catfish]

[...] She said the Conservatives would look at how they could regain their trust. [...]
Joke thread material :O:

[Jimbuna]

Is D Day coming for Starmer, as a former Labour Party voter, (not recently though, well, not since that G Brown muppet took over as leader) I've been patiently waiting for the looney left to give Starmer a thick lip, it seems as if my wait is over, this is the first sign of big trouble ahead for Starmer, we will hear the death throes of the muppet soon enough, as for the looney left, they're all bloody idiots. :haha:

KEIR WE GO Humiliated Sir Keir Starmer faces being ousted already as backers of Angela Rayner plot fresh takeover bid
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/15319515/keir-starmer-labour-leader-angela-rayner-by-election/

"They only managed to muster a paltry 622 votes - fewer votes than they have party members in the area" :haha:

[Moonlight]

Discrimination only matters if it's a non white person, why aren't all the snowflakes and woke pillocks marching down the streets of London now. :o

'How is this legal?' BBC bans white people from applying for Springwatch & One Show job
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1452228/bbc-job-advert-bans-white-people-bame-ethnic-minorities-uk-media-jobs

[Jimbuna]

Greater Manchester mayor Andy Burnham has accused the Scottish government of "hypocrisy" after it announced a travel ban to parts of the region.

He said he would write to Ms Sturgeon and ask the Scottish government to compensate local people who had planned to travel to Scotland and businesses that could lose bookings.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-manchester-57544665

Being the last vote I cast in the party (leadership election) and one of the last MP's I spoke to prior to leaving said party, all I can say is good luck with that.

You've more chance of getting a drink off her and we all know how hard that is.

[Catfish]

[...] You've more chance of getting a drink off her and we all know how hard that is.
:haha:
Looks like a tit for tat, but what was the tat?

[Jimbuna]

The response as was probably expected.

The 'tat'

Scotland's first minister has defended the ban on non-essential travel with Manchester and Salford after an angry reaction from the area's mayor.

Greater Manchester mayor Andy Burnham accused the Scottish government of "hypocrisy" over the move.

But Nicola Sturgeon said the decision was a public health measure, based on Covid levels in the area.

Opposition politicians in Scotland said there had been a lack of consistency and a lack of consultation.

However, Ms Sturgeon - who received her second vaccination in Glasgow on Monday - said she had a "duty" to keep Scotland as safe as possible.

"I have always got on well with Andy Burnham. If he wants a grown-up conversation he only has to pick up the phone," she said.

"But if, as I suspect might be the case, this is more about getting a spat with me as part of a some positioning in a Labour leadership contest of the future, then I am not interested."

The first minister said she was "confused" by Mr Burnham's position.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-57551236

[MGR1]

As expected, she's very in thrall to Glasgow/Dundee her voter base. Burnham does have a point about Dundee, no doubt well chosen considering, like Glasgow, it voted Yes in 2014.

Mike.:hmmm:

[mapuc]

Got no words for this.

The EU is preparing to act against the “disproportionate” amount of British television and film content shown in Europe in the wake of Brexit, in a blow to the UK entertainment industry and the country’s “soft power” abroad.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/21/eu-prepares-cut-amount-british-tv-film-shown-brexit?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&__twitter_impression=true&fbclid=IwAR3Fnu-jKZsJYpn8qyCG1deetPLagLfNtpsJVOlGUWN2tmqTwrHPelNfT 5I

Markus

[Catfish]

^ What? :o
This is completely idiotic! You can think what you want about "The crown", "Downtown Abbey" or worse Netflix productions, but this is .. well, idiotic indeed.
Maybe the want to get back to "Derrick", the most boring 'criminal' series of the 20ieth century? :doh:

edit: or.. maybe this has something to do with it?

"EU referendum result "devastating" for UK film and TV" (meaning brexit)

“The decision to exit the European Union is a major blow to the UK film and TV industry. Producing films and television programmes is a very expensive and very risky business and certainty about the rules affecting the business is a must.

“This decision has just blown up our foundation – as of today, we no longer know how our relationships with co-producers, financiers and distributors will work, whether new taxes will be dropped on our activities in the rest of Europe or how production financing is going to be raised without any input from European funding agencies."

Between 2007-2013 the EU Media program has transferred a hundred million Euros to England, for tv and film productions, and supporting creative content.
https://www.screendaily.com/eu-referendum-result-devastating-for-uk-film-and-tv/5106192.article?blocktitle=Latest-UK-Ireland-news&contentID=392


And was not the UK (read: England) to leave the european cooperation first? 2020:

"The U.K. has just begun negotiating the terms of its future trading relationship with the European Union. Last week, the British government published its priorities for the negotiations. There was no mention of the E.U.’s Creative Europe Media program, which means that the country will almost definitely leave it at the end of this year."
https://www.cartoonbrew.com/business/the-u-k-is-set-to-leave-the-e-u-s-media-program-heres-what-this-means-for-animation-187203.html

https://www.creativeeuropeuk.eu/news/update-creative-europe-and-outcome-eu-referendum

Maybe the EU's re-action is only a logical step?

[Skybird]

Ooopsie... the UK wanting to play with Russia.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57583363

Before you set out to the dancefloor competition, make sure you learned the steps right and are fit for the pace of the tunes.

From German Wikipedia:
"Rear Admiral Chris Parry stated in January 2017 that the destroyers were "devilishly loud" underwater and that they sounded like a box full of wrenches. His crew would have put wooden wedges in hatches and doors to reduce the rattle. A corresponding investigation showed that Russian submarines would be able to locate the noise over hundreds of nautical miles."

Well, if the Russians so easily can know where these ships are, we can at least be certain that they will not accidentally shoot at them by mistaking them with somebody else. :D

[Moonlight]

Ooopsie... the UK wanting to play with Russia.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57583363

Maybe some more political and military posturing from the Russians, show some proof first you bleeding idiots before mouthing off about it.

From German Wikipedia:
"Rear Admiral Chris Parry stated in January 2017 that the destroyers were "devilishly loud" underwater and that they sounded like a box full of wrenches. His crew would have put wooden wedges in hatches and doors to reduce the rattle. A corresponding investigation showed that Russian submarines would be able to locate the noise over hundreds of nautical miles."
Maybe it's time to up-grade all the UK military ships with some sails, it's the perfect anti-submarine technology, no sound, sight only. :haha:

[Jimbuna]

Ooopsie... the UK wanting to play with Russia.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57583363

Before you set out to the dancefloor competition, make sure you learned the steps right and are fit for the pace of the tunes.

From German Wikipedia:
"Rear Admiral Chris Parry stated in January 2017 that the destroyers were "devilishly loud" underwater and that they sounded like a box full of wrenches. His crew would have put wooden wedges in hatches and doors to reduce the rattle. A corresponding investigation showed that Russian submarines would be able to locate the noise over hundreds of nautical miles."

Well, if the Russians so easily can know where these ships are, we can at least be certain that they will not accidentally shoot at them by mistaking them with somebody else. :D

Looking at the full report on UK tv proves to me it simply didn't happen. At least not the way the Russians reckon.

[Bilge_Rat]

According to the reporter on board, the ship did deliberately go inside Russian claimed territorial waters:

On board HMS Defender

Jonathan Beale, Defence Correspondent

I am on board the warship in the Black Sea.

The crew were already at action stations as they approached the southern tip of Russian-occupied Crimea. Weapons systems on board the Royal Navy destroyer had already been loaded.

This would be a deliberate move to make a point to Russia. HMS Defender was going to sail within the 12 mile (19km) limit of Crimea's territorial waters. The captain insisted he was only seeking safe passage thorough an internationally recognised shipping lane.

Two Russian coastguard ships that were shadowing the Royal Navy warship, tried to force it to alter its course. At one stage, one of the Russian vessels closed in to about 100m.

Increasingly hostile warnings were issued over the radio - including one that said "if you don't change course I'll fire". We did hear some firing in the distance but they were believed to be well out of range.

As HMS Defender sailed through the shipping lane it was buzzed by Russian jets. The Captain, Vincent Owen, said the ship detected more than 20 military aircraft nearby. Commander Owen said his mission was confident but non-confrontational.



https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57583363

Looks to me like a one-off, using the RN to show the flag and point out that the annexation of Crimea is not recognized. I presume this is less insulting than using USN ships.

There will be a major NATO-Ukraine naval exercise in the Black Sea next week. Maybe this was a test to see how the Russians will react?

I doubt this will be a common occurence. Eventually Russia would have to react and NATO does not want to get into a shooting war with Russia.

[Moonlight]

I doubt Russia would want to get into a shooting war with NATO either, it's only some feeble military posturing as usual, a shooting match would serve no purpose to either side.

[Skybird]

Reporter aboard the ship says he heard distant cannon fire, and its also said that aircraft were in the air. Finally its said the destroyer went into waters the West says are Ukrainian and the Russians say are Russian.



However, look at the map. Sevastopol is very nearby. If you seriously want to provoke an accidental engagement, then do it there, right on the doorstep of their biggest naval base in the Black sea, the main strategic reason why they took all the Crimean adventure on them. In no other part of the Crimean coastal waters you may have better chances to get what you asked for. Its like a submarine popping up at the entrance to Pearl Harbour.



Demonstrating claimed freedom of passage to illustrate one's own view of an issue, is one thing. Doing it right on the main nervous nexus of the opponent, that is something very different. To some things the other side simply cannot afford not to react to if it wants to be taken serious afterwards.



The Russians may not want a major war with NATO, but different to Europe, they are willing to wage war in that region - and different to Europe, their people would support it: its the Crimean.


And the RN has not many destroyers, and these are underarmed still (or have they finally gotten all the weapons they once were designed for?), I think, and tasked for escort service to the carriers. Even a just damaged destroyer in their fleet and months in harbour for repair would ruin their plans for their Asian all-in betting adventure voyage. Thats the bad thing if you have modern ships - but only in extremely small quantities: every minor hickup can already ruin your plans and timetables for the year and years after that. No reserves: no degrees of freedom.

[Jimbuna]

Will be interesting to see what route she takes on the return voyage.

[Moonlight]

Will public opinion over Hancock's rule breaking cost the Tories dear in the Batley and Spen by-election.

Tory MPs and activists are feeling buoyant on the campaign trail in the rolling West Yorkshire Pennines, “It’s looking good, I would be surprised if we didn’t win it,” said one of the many Tory MPs who have been on the campaign trail.
And then Matt Hancock is frontpage news as he's seen canoodling with his bit of fluff in the office.
18 months of following government rules, and for what, so this pillock along with the rest of his Tory cronies can break them when they see fit.
Now I know why Bozo Johnson and Matt Hancock caught Covid last year, apparently they haven't been wearing masks at 10 Downing Street or in the Department of Health and Social Care for over a year, if this is true that's going to cause more outrage.

I've just been chatting with the neighbour next door who knows everyone and he says the residents are foaming at the mouth over this latest breach by a government minister. I wonder if the same can be said in Batley and Spen, we'll know next week, if they lose this by-election there will be fingers pointing in Hancock's direction.

[Jimbuna]

Opposition to the hypocrite is growing apparently.

Matt Hancock is facing calls to quit as health secretary from fellow Tory MPs after he breached social distancing guidance by kissing a colleague.

The health secretary apologised after pictures emerged of him with Gina Coladangelo, reportedly taken on 6 May.

Conservative MPs Duncan Baker and Sir Christopher Chope have said he should go, while former secretary of state Esther McVey said she would have quit in Mr Hancock's position.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57622868

[Jimbuna]

Opposition to the hypocrite is growing apparently.

Matt Hancock is facing calls to quit as health secretary from fellow Tory MPs after he breached social distancing guidance by kissing a colleague.

The health secretary apologised after pictures emerged of him with Gina Coladangelo, reportedly taken on 6 May.

Conservative MPs Duncan Baker and Sir Christopher Chope have said he should go, while former secretary of state Esther McVey said she would have quit in Mr Hancock's position.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57622868

He's eventually done the right thing and has just resigned.

[Catfish]

Russians talk of Crimea war 2.0

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https://www.heise.de/tp/features/Russische-Medien-sprechen-von-Krimkrieg-2-0-6120154.html

[Moonlight]

^That's not news it's bleeding propaganda, is "Russian State Media" the holy grail of honest news reporting now?. :haha: :doh:

[Catfish]

Of course it is, but the videos were even posted on state-critical media in Russia
https://meduza.io/news/2021/06/24/isklyuchit-popadanie-fsb-pokazala-video-predupreditelnoy-strelby-po-britanskomu-esmintsu-v-chernom-more
I still wonder what England's destroyer had to do there apart from a well-planned provocation. Diversion from home problems? I would have liked to eavesdrop what has been said to Deborah Bronnert while being summoned to Russia's foreign ministry :03:

[Skybird]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57624942
I stick to it. Issuing provocations while not being readied to substantially maintain robust consequences that can derive from them, is stupid and bigmouthed.

Play or dont play. But if you play, play all in. Dont bluff. Hope is not a strategy.

[Jimbuna]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57624942
I stick to it. Issuing provocations while not being readied to substantially maintain robust consequences that can derive from them, is stupid and bigmouthed.

Play or dont play. But if you play, play all in. Dont bluff. Hope is not a strategy.

Don't pull the tail of the tiger because actions often bring about consequences.

[Skybird]

Exactly.

My grandfather (on mother's side) obviously was in WW2. He was kind of mentally broken after that experience, and pacifist. But he also had been soldier with plenty of combat experience under his belt (tank commander). He used to say something like: never have a war again. But if you must, then throw anything into it that you can. Don't play with fire if you are not willing and ready and capable to burn down the whole world. If you cannot do that, don't even think about start playing with fire.

100% my view.

[Catfish]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57624942 [...]
"Classified Ministry of Defence documents found at bus stop"
What? And it is all in there ... edit: might have been done intentionally.

Ok it is ukdefencejournal (at some point they may reach german word construction lengths ;) ), but this paints a bit of a different story:

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/are-you-threatening-us-asks-british-warship/

[Moonlight]

It's hotting up in the Batley and Spen bi-election.

Labour could face a humiliating third place in Thursday’s Batley and Spen by-election as even the Tories are struggling in this Muslim-dominated Red Wall target, and one of the reasons for that might be because rabble-rouser George Galloway threw his hat into the ring.

A brief overview of Batley and Spen.
This was the former seat of Labour’s Jo Cox who was assassinated in 2016, the seat is infamous for death threats against a local teacher who showed pupils an image of the prophet Mohammed. No one in this bi-election has dared to raise the issue of free speech, apart from the SDP candidate Ollie Purser, which is one reason why he doesn’t have a chance of winning it.

Batley by-election 'dirty tricks' as leaflets faked and Labour activists 'kicked in head'
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/batley-by-election-dirty-tricks-as-leaflets-faked-and-labour-activists-kicked-in-head/ar-AALxey2?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531

[Moonlight]

Bloody idiots, the thing that narks me about this altercation though is all those MP's shouting their bleeding mouths off at these two daft fools, they're not so bloody quick with their mouths when citizens are being mugged, robbed or murdered though are they?.
Of course Whitty is one of theirs isn't he, someone who's going to be awarded with a top honour from the queen one day, the double standards shown here just shows us normal members of the public that they couldn't give two bleeding hoots about any one of us.

HALFWHITS Chris Whitty video: Idiot yobs film themselves harassing professor in distressing scenes as top medic tries to get away
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15426169/stupid-yobs-film-grabbing-pushing-chris-whitty-distressing/

[Catfish]

Another pov regarding the "Defender" :03:

"Unfortunately, the Russian Federation, following its illegal annexation of Crimea several years ago, incorrectly regards these waters as their territorial waters, something not recognised by other nations. This therefore led to a strong response by Russia to try to persuade the RN to stand off. Ultimately, they failed"

https://thinpinstripedline.blogspot.com/2021/06/defending-truth-royal-navy-russia.html

[Jimbuna]

The Scottish government is to lift its ban on non-essential travel between Scotland and parts of north-west England, including Manchester.

The restriction sparked a row between First Minister Nicola Sturgeon and Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham.

Mr Burnham accused Ms Sturgeon of "hypocrisy" for imposing the ban without any consultation with him.

He also pointed out that parts of Scotland had higher Covid rates than Manchester.

The ban on travel between Scotland - which currently has the highest Covid rate of any UK nation - and Manchester came into force on 21 June.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-57652436

[Moonlight]

Bloody hell! how many more times are these Tories going to shoot themselves in the foot, the whole lot of them are just waffling on when proper leadership is required.

FATCAT FURY Minister roasted over ‘wholly unfair’ quarantine exemption for overseas bosses
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/15440138/minister-roasted-over-wholly-unfair-quarantine-exemption/