UK Politics Thread

[JU_88]

(To stay in this EU-discussion)

Sitting here and wonder if all what I have heard through the years when it comes to the Swedish and Danish national Parliament and what the reporters have said in these two countries.

Things like

"Our government can't just make a law or adjust a law without taking EU into consideration, EU have a huge influence on what type of law and how they are made in our country(Sweden/Denmark)"

So this is what I understand not true

What those reporters and journalist have told us viewers are fake

Markus
(End of To stay in this EU-discussion)


Much like any big institution or nation - The Eu only cracks down /enforces its rules & principles on member states internal laws and policy when it suits them / serves their own interests to do so.
When there is a conflict they will try to push/bully to get what they want. but if not - they just shrug and say 'its not our place to get involved with this nations internal affairs.'
So for the most part they wont care what internal laws Denmark and Sweden make. Spain pretty much flouts their EU obligation on reducing carbon emissions, and puts sky high tax tarrifs on renewable energy. What does Eu do to punish them? Absolutely Nothing.
But they'll come down like a ton of Bricks on Greece when they have referendum on returning to the Drachma and declaring bankruptcy.

if i had pound for every political institution that actually applied its principles consistently, I would have... well no pounds, lol.

[Catfish]

[...]
if i had pound for every political institution that actually applied its principles consistently, I would have... well no pounds, lol.

Soon.. :O:

[JU_88]

Soon.. :O:

one thats run by AI or aliens maybe, human cant seem to do it? :O:

[mapuc]

Have hope my English friend....it seems like you will have a second chance to make it right this time..(said with an irony)

Markus

[STEED]

Welcome to my club. There are so many more so very solid and reasonable, logical reasons not to vote


I started too be a part time voter in the 1990's and since then all I have witness is lies deflections and put it on the back burner. Today's lot at Westminster have to be the bloody worst sham to date. I want to vote but how can I when all that is on offer from the big to small party's offer nothing but BS.


Seriously? :hmmm:


I see old jim is green with envy. :O: :03: :)


"Welcome to my club", Steed.


Many thanks Sky. :yeah:






EARLY NEWS REPORTS


PM May is about to rule out no deal and extend talks for another month.

[JU_88]

I started too be a part time voter in the 1990's and since then all I have witness is lies deflections and put it on the back burner. Today's lot at Westminster have to be the bloody worst sham to date. I want to vote but how can I when all that is on offer from the big to small party's offer nothing but BS.

Ditto and I know the feeling.... I think my first and last GE vote was for Blair in 97 oops. (it seemed like a good idea at the time)
anyway its all hung parliaments from here on.

[Catfish]

one thats run by AI or aliens maybe, human cant seem to do it? :O:


Oh no, i was referring to the pounds :D

[Jimbuna]

If Theresa May's Brexit deal gets through Parliament, Labour wants it to be put to a referendum - with remaining in the EU as the other option.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47369898

I am genuinely surprised at the 180 degree hypocritical turn old Steptoe (well known for decades to be anti-EU) is proposing to take.

Somewhere in the region of 63% of his vote in the northern Labour heartlands voted to leave and now he runs the risk of alienating many of them.

Probably made easier by his realisation he'll never become PM but no chance of any public admittance.

[JU_88]

I am genuinely surprised at the 180 degree hypocritical turn old Steptoe (well known for decades to be anti-EU) is proposing to take.

Somewhere in the region of 63% of his vote in the northern Labour heartlands voted to leave and now he runs the risk of alienating many of them.

Probably made easier by his realisation he'll never become PM but no chance of any public admittance.

Peer pressure, problem for him is he's quite alone on his side of the fence, just has a few oddballs like George Galloway for company :O:.
Labour voters & MPs = predominately cosmopolitan progressives,
cosmopolitan progressives = predominately Remainers.

But I've never doubted Mr 'impartial on Brexit' Citizen smith was a closet brexiteer, just not quite for the same set of reasons a Farage & co. Probably mostly because the EU is bed fellows with all the dodgy Banker types. But if he ever becomes PM he will quickly realize that they can punch him alot harder than he can punch them.

[Jimbuna]

Peer pressure, problem for him is he's quite alone on his side of the fence, just has a few oddballs like George Galloway for company :O:.
Labour voters & MPs = predominately cosmopolitan progressives,
cosmopolitan progressives = predominately Remainers.

But I've never doubted Mr 'impartial on Brexit' Citizen smith was a closet brexiteer, just not quite for the same set of reasons a Farage & co. Probably mostly because the EU is bed fellows with all the dodgy Banker types. But if he ever becomes PM he will quickly realize that they can punch him alot harder than he can punch them.

https://i.imgur.com/wlEqU2m.jpg

[JU_88]

It took me a while but now i get it :P :haha:
Alot of Americans won't.

[Jimbuna]

It took me a while but now i get it :P :haha:
Alot of Americans won't.

Just an attempt at a little humour :):03:

[JU_88]

Just an attempt at a little humour :):03:

Now now, no need to be PATE-ronising! :O:

[Catfish]

[...] because the EU is bed fellows with all the dodgy Banker types. [...].

Yeah right, only that the EU banks are in bed with the London banks :doh:
This, on the other hand...
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/08/revealed-leaveeu-campaign-met-russian-officials-as-many-as-11-times

[JU_88]

Yeah right, only that the EU banks are in bed with the London banks :doh:
This, on the other hand...
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/08/revealed-leaveeu-campaign-met-russian-officials-as-many-as-11-times

Sorry I forgot the EU was run by Saints :03:
Your article is kind of non applicable, in that I didn't support the Leave campaign either, so i'm not going to try and defend them.
Also you do realize an anti leave Guardian article has only marginally more weight than an Anti Remain Daily Mail article. Right?.

I don't wish to argue about it anymore, I made my position clear enough earlier, if we disagree - well, it happens.

[Catfish]

I'd rather believe the Guardian, but we can agree to .. at least that the EU is not run by saints :haha:
We'll have to let the vatican run this show :oops:

[Jimbuna]

I'd rather believe the Guardian, but we can agree to .. at least that the EU is not run by saints :haha:
We'll have to let the vatican run this show :oops:

Safeguard all the children first :o

[Catfish]

ouch, just saw the news :dead:

[Jimbuna]

I fugured you hadn't seen it at the time of posting :03:

[Jimbuna]

For once I tend to agree with him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtOTEG8hd_U

[Jimbuna]

I found his bodyguard standing behind him far more entertaining.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY6ocXHfJhg

[JU_88]

I found his bodyguard standing behind him far more entertaining.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY6ocXHfJhg

He looks like you Jim :haha:
Mogg reminds me of grown up Walter the wimp from the Beano comics. :P

[STEED]

^I was thinking that as well, stick a baseball cap on and bingo you got Jim. :)

[Reece]

Yes, no wonder Jim was admiring him!! Tickets please!!:haha:

[Jimbuna]

He looks like you Jim :haha:


Its funny you shouldsay that Francis, the daughter said that yesterday as well :)

[STEED]

French president Emmanuel Macron says request for Brexit delay must be 'justified'https://news.sky.com/story/pmqs-live-theresa-may-faces-jeremy-corbyn-at-pmqs-ahead-of-brexit-votes-11649727

How about you shut up or we will give away one million Yellow vests.




Disgraced MP Fiona Onasanya has been released from prison less than four weeks after she was convicted of lying to police over a speeding ticket.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-47369669

I suggest you washout lot change the rules for the next Parliament or do you like criminals?

[Jimbuna]

Macron is so weak and disliked in France he tries to appear tough to the UK not that we've ever listened to any French leader in the past over the last couple of hundred years or so.

[Georg Lassen]

Macron is so weak and disliked in France he tries to appear tough to the UK not that we've ever listened to any French leader in the past over the last couple of hundred years or so.




I love everytime Macron, Schultz or some other idiot threatens Britain, I know how many Brits will react.

[Jimbuna]

PMQ's today were much of a muchness as usual but MP Peter Bone did raise a laugh when he raised cabinet leaks, suggesting - to laughter from MPs and Mrs May - that it would be easier to televise cabinet meetings.

[Georg Lassen]

PMQ's today were much of a muchness as usual but MP Peter Bone did raise a laugh when he raised cabinet leaks, suggesting - to laughter from MPs and Mrs May - that it would be easier to televise cabinet meetings.


Good one. :)

[STEED]

Labour MP Chris Williamson suspended over antisemitism rowhttps://news.sky.com/story/labour-mp-chris-williamson-suspended-over-antisemitism-row-11650005

I bet not for long. :03:

[Jimbuna]

https://news.sky.com/story/labour-mp-chris-williamson-suspended-over-antisemitism-row-11650005

I bet not for long. :03:

Oh Im not so sure and now that Steptoe is being forced into digging deeper holes for himself it wouldn't surprise me if Mays Brexit deal eventually gets through.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47392018

Jeremy Corbyn says Labour will back another EU referendum after his alternative Brexit plan was again defeated in the Commons.

But the Labour leader said he will also continue to push for "other available options" including a general election.

If I hadn't read on the BBC website what this Maoist/Marxist 'gentleman' said on live tv I would have called my informant delusional :doh:

The shadow chancellor also told ITV's Peston show he would vote for remain.

[Jimbuna]

https://i.imgur.com/uv3Oul0.jpg

[Jimbuna]

Next...

Conservative MP George Eustice has quit the government over Theresa May's promise to allow MPs a vote on delaying Brexit if her deal is rejected.

The farming minister said he would be voting for her deal when it comes back to Parliament next month.

But he feared the PM's offer of votes on delaying Brexit could lead to the "final humiliation of our country".

Mr Eustice is a longstanding Brexiteer, who stood as a UKIP MEP candidate before joining the Conservatives.

He is the 14th member of Theresa May's government to resign over Brexit.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47405261

[mapuc]

https://i.imgur.com/uv3Oul0.jpg

As our politicians in Denmark and Sweden, when it comes to EU. Arrogant against their voters

Markus

[STEED]

https://i.imgur.com/uv3Oul0.jpg


NOT FOR ME IT HAS NOT.


I woke up years ago long before Brexit became a fact.


STOP VOTING PEOPLE AND DO SOMETHING FAR MORE CONSTRUCTIVE.


The media tells us we the voter will punish all of them, how then most our sheep? Parliament knows it and they are laughing all the way to the next election.

[STEED]

Chuka Umunna has been named as the spokesman for The Independent Group of breakaway MPs.
The group does not have a formal leader, but the former Labour MP's role suggests he will play a major role as TIG tries to increase its profile.
https://news.sky.com/story/the-independent-group-chuka-umunna-named-spokesman-for-breakaway-group-of-mps-11651286


Another washout lot going no where fast.






AND NOW SOMETHING ELSE...

Fireworks inquiry to look at case for banning sales to public


The probe by a committee of MPs comes after almost 750,000 people signed a variety of petitions voicing concerns about fireworks.






https://news.sky.com/story/fireworks-inquiry-considers-case-for-banning-sales-to-public-11651321


Yes ban the sales to the general public, if you want to watch fireworks go to a proper display.

[Catfish]

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-eurotunnel/uk-pays-eurotunnel-33-million-pounds-over-secretive-no-deal-brexit-ferry-contracts-idUKKCN1QI4BR


:yeah: seems they have all lost their marbles. Enjoy your brexit world :-j

[Jimbuna]

https://news.sky.com/story/the-independent-group-chuka-umunna-named-spokesman-for-breakaway-group-of-mps-11651286


Another washout lot going no where fast.








He was on This Week last night just after Question Time and he held his own whilst being interviewed but didn't stand out as anything special.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-eurotunnel/uk-pays-eurotunnel-33-million-pounds-over-secretive-no-deal-brexit-ferry-contracts-idUKKCN1QI4BR


:yeah: seems they have all lost their marbles. Enjoy your brexit world :-j

Just been reading that over on the BBC website :)https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47414699

[Jimbuna]

Just came across this on a friends FB page so decided to do a little 'research'

https://i.imgur.com/ogQGVE8.jpg

Whilst I disagree fundementally with the part about saying we can never leave it does however leave some food for thought.

BREXIT could be delayed until 2021, with EU officials plotting to lock the UK in the European Union for a minimum of two more years. But is there a hidden reason behind the delay?https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1092389/brexit-news-eu-delay-brexit-deadline-theresa-may-no-deal-brexit-second-referendum

I'm not extolling the accuracy of the source but there are others out there that mirror the contents.

[Catfish]

Initial brexit will not be as bad as some want to make believe, but the future will be. Nobody wins with brexit.

"Talk of rotting food at Calais is hysterical: instead, no deal would see the EU calmly dismantle Britain’s industries over time"

"The problem with abandoning the rules of the international order is that you no longer enjoy their protection."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/07/no-deal-brexit-medieval-siege-eu-britain-industries


"Presumably in a state of collective shock after nearly 52 percent of voters in the referendum chose to leave the EU, the parliament approved the government’s decision to start the withdrawal process without a plan for doing so. Leaving aside that the referendum campaign was so poisonous that many refrained from publicly stating their preferences, the vote was conducted with dubious criteria from a democratic point of view – excluding EU citizens living in the United Kingdom, going against the recommendation of the House of Lords to extend the franchise to 16 year-olds (whose future was at stake), and not allowing Britons that had been living abroad for over 15 years to vote."

http://www.gmfus.org/blog/2019/01/17/what-brexit-shambles-says-about-state-british-democracy

[Jimbuna]

Can't say for sure how much bias the above contains but that could be said for any articles of course.

One point I'd pick up on is Those same Brexiters who have marched from failure to failure with no loss of enthusiasm still bizarrely believe that the UK could pocket the £39bn divorce bill while pursuing trade deals around the world. Yet the EU would, calmly and rationally, place tariffs on UK trade until it had collected what it is owed I'm sure any tariffs impost would bring about a reciprocal gesture and the UK importing more than it exports would surely bring about a positive balance YES?

[Catfish]

^ from the first link's article:

" [...] riposte is that the Europeans have as much to lose since the UK is an important export market and we run a large trade deficit with the single market. But one of the legacies of Thatcher’s deindustrialisation is that the UK lacks the industrial base to switch from foreign to domestic production. It simply no longer exists, thanks to the 1980s shock therapy of the very same disaster capitalists that now champion no-deal."

"... the damage to trade with the single market could not be replaced by new trade deals – in addition to the EU27, the UK has the benefits of trade deals with 40 other countries through the EU, all of which would evaporate overnight in no deal. That requires 67 deals to be signed just to stand still."

Europe will export less to the UK, and this less will be more expensive in the UK. Win?

[Jimbuna]

Win or lose I'm not able to say but does it matter?

I'm becoming firmer in my belief as each day passes that Brexit will not happen.

[Skybird]

You are probably right there, Jim. which only means the betrayal of the referendum goes according to original plan. The political caste on both sides of the channel never had any intention to seriously allow it happening. Frustrate everybody so intensely and so long until eveybody just says that it should be cancelled due to frustration.



Then blow it off, shrug the shoulders and say "We really tried to honour the referendum, we really trie dhard, but it oculd not be done - you cannot hold us responsible for it, we really tried hard."


Stealing the referendum and finding a way to get away with it - thats what it is about.


Gotta love the rotten ways of politics.



People do not want freedom. With freedom they do not know anything to do. People want to get led, and kept in collective custody, and bear no responsibility for themselves, and wallow in the glory of their glorious owner, thunking that makes themselves glorious as well.


Cattle in a rail waggon.


And if somebody tells them about freedom, the owners must not care, for the owned will turn against the renegate all by themselves.

[Catfish]

^ Still hysterical with the conspiracy idea? It's irrational and irresponsible of Brexiters to mislead voters into thinking that the EU controls the UK when it is written in the treaties that the EU must respect its members. And it does. Yes. indeed.
Things like border control have been managed differently already by the UK, but also the latter opted out from border checks (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/31/britain-take-back-control-immigration-eu-directive-brexit) . Why do you always forget that?

You could easily have taken back control of our borders already under
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:158:0077:0123:en:PDF
but you chose not to.
" ... which allows EU member states to repatriate EU nationals after three months if they have not found a job or do not have the means to support themselves. In this month’s debate on the House of Lords EU subcommittee report on EU migration, I challenged the government on why we were not availing ourselves of this directive – and I got no response."


Generally,
"A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.’"
The key words here are ‘decides’ and ‘intention’. Despite the decision in the non-binding referendum, it did not mean the UK would Brexit that day as many were led to believe.

Instead there have been two years, and the UK trade ministry has not made one post-brexit deal with all the EU nations it now trades with (27), and not one deal with the other 67 nations the UK up to now traded with automatically because of being a EU member. And of course, this is all the EU's fault. pffft.


@Jim
What i meant is that Europe and the UK loses. The only winners will be Russia and China, and maybe the US.

[Georg Lassen]

You are probably right there, Jim. which only means the betrayal of the referendum goes according to original plan. The political caste on both sides of the channel never had any intention to seriously allow it happening. Frustrate everybody so intensely and so long until eveybody just says that it should be cancelled due to frustration.



Then blow it off, shrug the shoulders and say "We really tried to honour the referendum, we really trie dhard, but it oculd not be done - you cannot hold us responsible for it, we really tried hard."


Stealing the referendum and finding a way to get away with it - thats what it is about.


Gotta love the rotten ways of politics.



People do not want freedom. With freedom they do not know anything to do. People want to get led, and kept in collective custody, and bear no responsibility for themselves, and wallow in the glory of their glorious owner, thunking that makes themselves glorious as well.


Cattle in a rail waggon.


And if somebody tells them about freedom, the owners must not care, for the owned will turn against the renegate all by themselves.




Enough people will see trough this so it will cause a political crisis in Britain.




This would be the place for the Queen to come out and order the referendum to be respected.

[Skybird]

Enough people will see trough this so it will cause a political crisis in Britain.
This would be the place for the Queen to come out and order the referendum to be respected.It will deepen the trenche sin britain if they hold another referendum, I agree. However, that rotten potlciians get away with their mafiosi games and cheats and tricks is the common rule all over the West, and the voting and tax-paying cattle even legitimises them to do so time and again.



As far as the Queen is concerned, the time sof this institution ruling the potlics of a country are over. She has hinted at the drama with the faintesdt of words and it was already seen as a sensation, the Prtince recently made a comment or two in a speech that could be seen as an indirect referal to the drama and again ti was seen as the maximum of what can be expected form the royals. And I think more there will not be. They are in the feel-well-business and guard a museum, its a great show that they stage, I somewhat like it - but the powers lies elsewhere these days.

[Georg Lassen]

As far as the Queen is concerned, the time sof this institution ruling the potlics of a country are over. She has hinted at the drama with the faintesdt of words and it was already seen as a sensation, the Prtince recently made a comment or two in a speech that could be seen as an indirect referal to the drama and again ti was seen as the maximum of what can be expected form the royals. And I think more there will not be. They are in the feel-well-business and guard a museum, its a great show that they stage, I somewhat like it - but the powers lies elsewhere these days.




She has real powers and she has the military behind her.



Political Powers

The Queen’s political powers nowadays are largely ceremonial, though some are actively used by The Queen such as at General Elections or are available in times of crisis and some are used by Ministers for expediency when needed.


Summoning/Proroguing Parliament – The Queen has the power to prorogue (suspend) and to summon (call back) Parliament – prorogation typically happens at the end of a parliamentary session, and the summoning occurs shortly after, when The Queen attends the State Opening of Parliament.
Royal Assent – It is The Queen’s right and responsibility to grant assent to bills from Parliament, signing them into law. Whilst, in theory, she could decide to refuse assent, the last Monarch to do this was Queen Anne in 1708.
Secondary Legislation – The Queen can create Orders-in-Council and Letters Patent, that regulate parts to do with the Crown, such as precedence, titles. Orders in Council are often used by Ministers nowadays to bring Acts of Parliament into law.
Appoint/Remove Ministers – Her Majesty also has the power to appoint and remove Ministers of the Crown.
Appointing the Prime Minister – The Queen is responsible for appointing the Prime Minister after a general election or a resignation, in a General Election The Queen will appoint the candidate who is likely to have the most support of the House of Commons. In the event of a resignation, The Queen listens to advice on who should be appointed as their successor.
Declaration of War – The Sovereign retains the power to declare war against other nations, though in practice this is done by the Prime Minister and Parliament of the day.
Freedom From Prosecution – Under British law, The Queen is above the law and cannot be prosecuted – she is also free from civil action.

Judicial Powers

The Queen’s judicial powers are now very minimal, and there is only really one which is used on a regular basis, with others having been delegated to judges and parliament through time.


Royal Pardon – The Royal Pardon was originally used to retract death sentences against those wrongly convicted. It is now used to correct errors in sentencing and was recently used to give a posthumous pardon to WW2 codebreaker, Alan Turing.

Armed Forces

The Queen’s powers in the Armed Forces are usually used on the advice of Generals and Parliament though some functions are retained by The Queen herself nowadays.


Commander-in-Chief – The Queen is commander-in-chief of the Armed Forces and all members swear an oath of allegiance to The Queen when they join; they are Her Majesty’s Armed Forces.
Commissioning of Officers – The Queen’s powers include the commissioning of officers into the Armed Forces and also removing commissions (when members of the Armed Forces salute and officers, they are saluting The Queen’s commission).
Disposition of the Forces – The organisation and disposition of the Armed Forces are part of the Royal Prerogative; the crown technically controls how the Armed Forces are used.

Honours

One of the main prerogative powers that are still used personally by The Queen these days is the power to grant honours. As all honours derive from the Crown, The Queen has the final say on knighthoods, peerages and the like.


Creation of Peerages – The Queen may create a peerage for any person – whether a life peerage or hereditary one, though hereditary peerages haven’t been issued for decades outside of the Royal Family.
Font of Honour – It is The Queen’s prerogative power to create orders of knighthood and to grant any citizen honours. From the Royal Victorian Order to the Order of the Garter.

Miscellaneous Powers

Other powers Her Majesty holds include:


Control of Passports – The issuing and withdrawal of passports are within the Royal Prerogative – this is often used by ministers on behalf of The Queen. All British passports are issued in The Queen’s name.
Requisitioning of Ships – This power allows a ship to be commandeered in Her Majesty’s name for service to the realm. This power was used on the QE2 to take troops to the Falklands after the Argentine invasion in 1982.




http://royalcentral.co.uk/blogs/insight/what-are-the-queens-powers-22069

[STEED]

The sad fact is a lot of people in the UK......


Oh I give up what is the point.



GAME OVER.

[Skybird]

@georg Lassen,


Sorry, but that is the difference between ceremonial affairs defined on paper, and reality. And reality is the decisons are made by the government, and the queen approves them afterwards. She rteads what is beign given to her, and usually she is expected to not give even a hint of a comment or political bias of her own.

Don't take a stage actor for the character he plays. Its all big theatre today. Enjoyable theatre, and nobody plays especially this stage play like the British Royal theatre company does. Superb performance, great show. But its theatre nonetheless.

[STEED]

Brexit: Tobias Ellwood says ministers will stop no-deal 'whenever'https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47415296

There will be no deal there will be no deal we are staying because you lot are swine. Democracy is what we say and make the voters look silly. OBEY OBEY OBEY...WE KNOW WHAT IS BEST FOR YOU.

STOP VOTING FOR MORONS!




Good riddance? EU's 'Brexit fatigue' limits UK extension options

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Britain has just four weeks left as a member of the European Union. Or maybe not. Staying weeks, months, even years longer is the talk of London; but such ideas are getting a frosty hearing on the continent.https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-delay/good-riddance-eus-brexit-fatigue-limits-uk-extension-options-idUKKCN1QH24G

Time for the Brexit song...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzSJBowPECY

[Reece]

STOP VOTING FOR MORONS! Trouble is STEED, there is no one else but morons to vote for!! :doh:

I do feel for you STEED, one has to wonder why they even had a vote for Brexit in the first place! - Morons!! :oops:

I'd be doing this: :/\\!!

[STEED]

Trouble is STEED, there is no one else but morons to vote for!! :doh:



Vote for the cat its smarter than all the politicians put together. :03:

https://sites.create-cdn.net/siteimages/10/3/9/103989/313486.jpg

[Catfish]

[...] Time for the Brexit song...


Oh no: this was the brexit song, it was not made as a parody, and no one will forget it :03:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBi-KXc0CRk

[STEED]

^That is the past. :O:

The song I put up is the goings on in the HoC now.

[Jimbuna]

@georg Lassen,


Sorry, but that is the difference between ceremonial affairs defined on paper, and reality. And reality is the decisons are made by the government, and the queen approves them afterwards. She rteads what is beign given to her, and usually she is expected to not give even a hint of a comment or political bias of her own.

Don't take a stage actor for the character he plays. Its all big theatre today. Enjoyable theatre, and nobody plays especially this stage play like the British Royal theatre company does. Superb performance, great show. But its theatre nonetheless.

The Queen performs 'ceremonial' duties only, having relinquished any real power many years ago.

The one question I sometimes ponder over is should there ever be a revolution in the UK (fat chance of that of course) which side would the military take, Crown or Political?

I suspect Crown.

[Jimbuna]

Two of Labour's most senior figures have clashed over how to handle anti-Semitism within the party.

General secretary Jennie Formby accused deputy leader Tom Watson of "completely unacceptable" behaviour for asking that complaints about anti-Semitism be forwarded to him for monitoring.

She said his approach would "undermine" and "pollute" existing party processes.

Mr Watson stood by his request, saying "opacity and delay" by the party had led to "a complete loss of trust".https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47425319

The cancer continues to spread within.

[STEED]

The Queen performs 'ceremonial' duties only, having relinquished any real power many years ago.

The one question I sometimes ponder over is should there ever be a revolution in the UK (fat chance of that of course) which side would the military take, Crown or Political?

I suspect Crown.

Errr in most part yes, she has over ruled the government round about five times on matters. This bit of info was from a radio show back end of last year and the guest was a expert on the Queen and Parliament.

The Queen can declare war, I suggest she goes ahead a declare war on Parliament as I'm sure our Army will back her after years of cut backs.

[Jimbuna]

Stuff Brexit......These buggas are about to get a rise of 2.7% and I've recently been given notification of only a 2.4% on my pension :shifty:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47418184

[STEED]

Stuff Brexit......These buggas are about to get a rise of 2.7% and I've recently been given notification of only a 2.4% on my pension :shifty:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47418184

They need it after all slobbering around drinking plonk and sniffing white powder take a lot of work. :03:

[Jimbuna]

https://i.imgur.com/bbR6KbN.jpg

[Catfish]

yeah you can (ab)use him for almost anything :03:

"Do not believe all you see on the internet" (Abraham Lincoln)


This quote is however true

https://i.imgur.com/hv6gSiWl.jpg

[Skybird]

And here is the full story on Churchill.

https://www.ft.com/content/3d6bbabc-7122-11e6-a0c9-1365ce54b926


As Churchill urged a Franco-German partnership to lead his vision of a new Europe, he declared that Great Britain and the British Commonwealth, along with the US and USSR, should be “friends and sponsors” of the project. He did not talk of the UK becoming a member itself. “We are with Europe, but not of it,” he wrote in an earlier essay. “We are linked but not comprised.” That ambiguity has haunted Britain’s relationship with its continental neighbours ever since, culminating in the UK referendum vote on June 23 for Brexit.


Also, the founding time of post-war Europe was a very different time than it is today, the economic and especially the fincial precondtions could not be compared. The money was a different one than there is today, and I do not just talk about a currency's simple name. Continental self-sustaining corruption and ursurping of powers, mass-migration and global drowning in hopeless amounts of debts were not even imaginable.

It is highly questionably that Churchill would repeat his Zurich speech again in that exact manner like he delivered it in 46.And many deformations and perversions there are today in the EU policy forming and demand for power that also should not be taken for granted to have found his approval. He was no fool denying reality.

[Catfish]

He said a lot of things contradicting each other.

What was alwas the guiding line, was called the english "destructive embracing" of Europe, and his successors tried to do their best :03:
However now they are out of the game.

[JU_88]

What ever churchill said or would have said is pretty academic when considering its based on 1940's/50's standards. Alots happened since then!

Anyway 'United states of Europe', In the context of just having come out of a 6 year bloody conflict. Rather than ' but I don't want to get a tourist visa to go skiing in the alps.'

[Jimbuna]

Theresa May has received a major Brexit boost ahead of key Commons votes with an endorsement of her deal from the Tories' backbench leader.

Sir Graham Brady, the powerful chairman of the 1922 Committee, has said he is ready to drop his opposition to the prime minister's contentious deal.https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/brexit-boost-for-pm-as-brady-signals-he-will-back-her-deal/ar-BBUiAIz?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignout

Arguably the most powerful Tory in Westminster but would he bring with him enough votes to see the Brexit deal through?

[Skybird]

I see nothing contradicting in his remarks as linked to.



Hayek: Consrvatism is only as good as what it conserves.


Skybird: A union is only as good as what and how it unites.


Free market: yes, okay. But nothing more. For military cooperation, a EU is not needed. For shared defence projects between severla countries, a EU isnot needed. For maintaining peaceful relations and havign visitors cossing borders, an unguarded border or a EU is not needed. For economic self-respnsibility of nations, a EU is not needed. For student visa, a EU is not needed. For language lessons, a EU is not needed. A collectivization of unemployment and social wellfare and debts bailing-out must at no cost be wanted. Spreading corruption and self-serving of ministers, commissars and EU admonsitrators, must not be wanted. Forcing foeign nations to swallow mass migration they do not want, must not be supported.


A Freihandelszone. But encorzaging competition betweenn nations for best qualified perosnnel, artists, workers, by offering best conditions regarding loans, low taxes, conditions.



Instead, the EU enforces a continental monopoly with itself at the top.



Over the past 20 years, the EU, the more it "united" and "grew together", the more it lost global market shares to Asia and the US. That is exactly the opposite effect of what is claimed a growing EU notification should achieve. Planned economy kills innovation, creativity, competitiveness. The digital rights agenda of the eU is very destructive and does nothing to become more competitve with the comouter and It industry of the US, the big players all are Americna and China - and this is an economic key branch. The Germans have overslept adapting their own key industry, car making, even want to kill it. German banks have become the running joke of global banksters, ar dwarves. And Germany invests its money into demands it has against other nations and economies running on debt, which means it wastes its wealth by wasting its wealth, if that makes sense, for these credits and demands will NEVER be paid back to us. Even if the other would want to pay them back - they cannot.


But ever more centrlased deciison making in Brussel and ever more planned economy and hoeplessly overreglated business-running and ever more bureaucratic mciro-managment even for the sallest of companies should heal this mess? Should be a dysfunctionaol system that evertheless "can be reformed"? It was deliberately designed to be the mess it is, to give politicans a reason to exist: by claiming they can dela with it and have solutions. They have none. They are parasites, and they spread a lethal, liberty-killing virus with their claims.


No, this hardly is what Churchill would have supported. He had different ideas about European collaboration, even different ones than deGaulle - and deGaulle'S idea also had strict limits regarding how far a European unification should lead. Last but not least, Churchill encouraged a Franco-German coperation to have the French in tight partnership with the germans - to overwatch and control them, not to start another stupid thing again.

[STEED]

The fact is this government has made no real effort what so ever because they don't want too. Even if May gets it though their is a massive ton more to be done and that is going to be the hard stuff that will take years.

I say write the whole bloody thing off and everyone stop voting. Westminster is a bloody disgrace and massive reform is needed to get that lot working for us.

[STEED]

Antisemitism 'intimately related' to Labour's politics, says MP who quit partyhttps://news.sky.com/story/antisemitism-intimately-related-to-labours-politics-says-mp-who-quit-party-11653947

If Labour was serious about this problem it would had been sorted out by now. Clearly they are not clearly this issue is staying put.

[Jimbuna]

Labour anti-Semitism: Tom Watson clashes with party boss.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47425319

I must confess to feeling a little sympathy for Tom Watson atm. I voted for him as Deputy in the leadership election and he currently appears to be one of the few in Labour that speaks any sense.

[STEED]

CAMPAIGN TO FREE JIM

Sign up here..

Free Jim now.

STEED The Bunker UK


Jeremy Corbyn hit by egg during Mosque visithttps://news.sky.com/story/jeremy-corbyn-hit-by-egg-during-visit-in-north-london-11654410

[JU_88]

Borris's latest gaff anyone?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKcPm-dDEow

[Catfish]

The fact is this government has made no real effort what so ever because they don't want too. Even if May gets it though their is a massive ton more to be done and that is going to be the hard stuff that will take years. [...]
Well first of all the guys that initiated it all for whatever reason gallantly chickened away the day their goal was accomplished. I mean those who were responsible and in charge, ran away. And now runner Nr. 1 Mr. Farage (the one who won the british hearts while posing in front of a Nazi poster) founds a brexit party? What for, to run awy once more? The nerve!

Second when May was elected it was not only that she had been against brexit, but their was no plan to do whatsoever. Why should she just of all have cared for beforehand? No one expected a brexit. Not even Johnson, or Rees-Mogg.
We have seen how helpful Cameron, Farage, Johnson and some other backstabbers of her own party have been, to "help" her.

So no plan. One should have thought that at least the leavers would have had some idea, but no. Bigmouthing, and then let others do the hard work (and let May take the blame for their lies).

Whatever, May was the only one who seems to even have cared and thought about what to do next when she was put in charge, while being attacked from all sides, all the time. Still she managed to be the only productive person who seems to actually have done something in those two years instead of accusing others all the time. Call it her stubbornness or power-greedy or whatever, but the rest of this clique sure has shown no responsibility.

Other than being a real united kingdom in blaming it all on the EU :)

[Catfish]

"Kick EU-bastards out", words by Boris Johnson:
https://www.politico.eu/article/how-do-you-kick-eu-bastards-out-asks-boris-johnson/
Thanks, we will remember them.

[Jimbuna]

CAMPAIGN TO FREE JIM

Sign up here..

Free Jim now.

STEED The Bunker UK


https://news.sky.com/story/jeremy-corbyn-hit-by-egg-during-visit-in-north-london-11654410

Jeremy Corbyn hit by egg during Mosque visit

"But then he came here, to the Muslim Welfare Centre, with [shadow home secretary] Diane Abbott.

"While he was here in an upstairs room, a protester - a pro-Brexit protester we understand, according to eyewitnesses - placed an egg on his head."

PA reported that the attacker was overheard to say "when you vote you get what you vote for".

According to the Metropolitan Police, a 41-year-old man was "quickly" arrested on suspicion of assault after the incident.

Wasn't me but I wish I had an identical opportunity.

Hard choice would be which one to splatter....much better if I had two eggs.

[Jimbuna]

A £1.6bn government fund has been launched to boost less well-off towns in England after Brexit.

The pot is split into £1bn, divided in England using a needs-based formula, and £600m communities can bid for.

More than half of the money, to be spread over seven years, will go to the north of England and the Midlands.

Labour called it a bribe to influence MPs to back the PM's Brexit deal and critics say it does not cover cuts to local authority funding.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47435565

It certainly looks like bribe money.

[STEED]

It certainly looks like bribe money.


Criminal behavior, another good reason not to vote.

[JU_88]

It certainly looks like bribe money.

I'm sure it will be put to good use.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6crbMHt01lY

[Jimbuna]

Ministers will resume efforts later to secure legally-binding changes to Theresa May's Brexit deal that might get MPs' backing in a week's time.

Brexit Secretary Stephen Barclay and Attorney General Geoffrey Cox will meet EU officials in Brussels in search of guarantees over the backstop plan to avoid border checks in Ireland.

Mr Cox has dismissed reports he has given up on securing a firm end date to ensure the UK is not stuck.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47449853

A further waste of time or not?

[Skybird]

Legally binding...? Guarantees...?

:har:

A lukewarm handshake, and more effort by the EU to lure the UK onto a path from where it cannot escape to never leave for real ever. The latest talking about a delay by 21 months, was right that: a - ironically legally binding - trap.

[Jimbuna]

The Independent Group is in talks with the Electoral Commission about becoming a fully-fledged political party, group spokesman Chuka Umunna has said.

He said the group had to become a party in order to present an alternative to the "broken political system".

Eight MPs quit Labour and joined forces with three former Tories to form the group, which is joint fourth-largest in Parliament, with the Lib Dems.

By registering as a party, the group can contest seats in future elections.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47453810

Inevitably it was only a matter of time.

[Jimbuna]

An MP jailed for lying about a speeding offence has lost an appeal against her conviction.

Peterborough MP Fiona Onasanya was sentenced to three months in January for perverting the course of justice.

Sir Brian Leveson said at the Royal Courts of Justice there was "absolutely no basis" for challenging the conviction.

Ms Onasanya, 35, had claimed someone else was driving her car when it was seen speeding on 24 July 2017.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-47455618

Some people just don't know when to give up!

[Jimbuna]

Not to be outdone by Steptoe and Co.

Fourteen Conservative party members have been suspended after posting Islamophobic or racist comments on social media, The Independent can reveal.

Comments found on a pro-Jacob Rees-Mogg Facebook group from Conservative party members included calling for Muslims to be "turfed out of public office", for the government to "get rid of all mosques" and calling Home Secretary Sajid Javid a "Trojan horse".

The Muslim Council of Britain (MCB), which has repeatedly called for an independent inquiry into Islamophobia within the party, said the latest revelation was "astonishing".https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tory-islamophobia-racism-suspended-member-conservatives-a8808571.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1551797853

[STEED]

The EU talks a wast of time that stupid idot May is a morron.

That stupid Woman can not see the facts on knife crime, listen you dumbass bitch the police are telling you hard cold facts and you dismiss them!

GET THAT STUPID WOMAN OUT OF NO.10 NOW!

[Reece]

They should have pulled out as soon as the Brexit voting was over. :doh:
It's horrible STEED, like watching the sinking ship "HMS United Kingdom" go down! :wah:

[STEED]

It now looks like a delay to Brexit is a fact.

https://news.sky.com/story/delay-to-brexit-now-inevitable-senior-minister-tells-sky-news-11656376

[Jimbuna]

Make TV election debates happen - establish an Independent Debates Commission

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/228572

[STEED]

Make TV election debates happen - establish an Independent Debates Commission

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/228572

No thank you, I rather watch feeding time at the zoo which will be honest.

After that last load of garbage my advice is toss that petion into the bin.

[STEED]

PMQ's
MayDunce waffles on about this and that which adds up to no action on knife crime. We need more better trained police back on the streets and more search and stop and to hell with the bleeding heart wishy washy liberal curtain twitchers.

[Jimbuna]

Prime Minister Theresa May has not listened to police concerns about knife crime, a former head of the Metropolitan Police has said.

Mrs May said the deaths of young people were "appalling" as she announced an upcoming summit on knife crime.

But Lord Stevens told the BBC: "I don't think she listens, quite frankly, to what she's being told."https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47472928

Apparently there are topics other than Brexit that she refuses to listen or take advice on.

[Jimbuna]

The UK has been urged to table fresh proposals within the next 48 hours to break the Brexit impasse.

EU officials said they would work non-stop over the weekend if "acceptable" ideas were received by Friday to break the deadlock over the Irish backstop.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47476942

Come on PM....put up or shutup...now is the time.

[Jimbuna]

Frustrated EU officials have urged UK Brexit negotiators to table a workable solution to the Irish backstop by Friday if they want a breakthrough in talks.https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/brexit-latest-eu-negotiators-give-uk-48-hour-deadline-to-come-up-with-new-plan-for-irish-backstop/ar-BBUtB2N?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignout

The UK's attorney general says Brexit negotiations will continue as EU officials call for "acceptable" ideas by Friday to break the impasse.

Geoffrey Cox said plans to solve the deadlock over the Irish backstop were "as clear as day", with just days until MPs vote on the Brexit deal.

Commons Leader Andrea Leadsom confirmed the vote will be held on 12 March.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47481872

Is the game of chicken coming to a conclusion?

If so, who will blink first?

[STEED]

Work and Pensions Secretary Amber Rudd has apologised for using the word "coloured" in a BBC interview.

Shadow home secretary Diane Abbott criticised the use of the term, saying it was "outdated", "offensive" and a "revealing choice of words".https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47488047

Well then what?

[JU_88]

Work and Pensions Secretary Amber Rudd has apologised for using the word "coloured" in a BBC interview.

Shadow home secretary Diane Abbott criticised the use of the term, saying it was "outdated", "offensive" and a "revealing choice of words".

What Irks me is that the correct PC term (Diane Abbott has used) is P.O.C (people of colour) how is that any different from 'colored'?
They both mean the exact same thing: Non-White.
Its total hypocrisy really.
So Abbot can go to hell along with Rudd as far as i'm concerned. They just practice different types of racism, that's all.
Sorry I voted for that idiot once (Abbot that is)

[STEED]

What Irks me is that the correct PC term (Diane Abbott has used) is P.O.C (people of colour) how is that any different from 'colored'?
They both mean the exact same thing: Non-White.
Its total hypocrisy really.
So Abbot can go to hell along with Rudd as far as i'm concerned. They just practice different types of racism, that's all.
Sorry I voted for that idiot once (Abbot that is)It has got too the stage you are left thinking what do I say. PC garbage has gone to far.

[STEED]

https://news.sky.com/story/theresa-may-tells-eu-it-has-to-make-a-choice-in-few-days-before-mps-brexit-vote-11658157

Look you old bag they have and they keep telling you over and over again and the message is not going into your thick head!

[JU_88]

I predict she will deliver the impossible, a delayed hard brexit where we will be basically still in the EU.
Everyone will be too confused and fed up to complain about it! :haha:

[Jimbuna]

What Irks me is that the correct PC term (Diane Abbott has used) is P.O.C (people of colour) how is that any different from 'colored'?
They both mean the exact same thing: Non-White.
Its total hypocrisy really.
So Abbot can go to hell along with Rudd as far as i'm concerned. They just practice different types of racism, that's all.
Sorry I voted for that idiot once (Abbot that is)

I know what I find more hypocritical and offensive...

https://i.imgur.com/0MYp5zQ.jpg

[Jimbuna]

I predict she will deliver the impossible, a delayed hard brexit where we will be basically still in the EU.
Everyone will be too confused and fed up to complain about it! :haha:

I think you may well be right :yep:

[Jimbuna]

Theresa May has asked the EU for "one more push" to get her Brexit deal through Parliament and warned that, if it fails, "we may never leave at all".https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47487320

It'll take one helluva push!!

[Skybird]

I think, Jim, the real highlight from your quoted article is this:

1. "Back it and the UK will leave the EU," she said.

2. "Reject it and no-one knows what will happen. We may not leave the EU for many months. We may leave without the protections a deal provides,

3. we may never leave at all."
Isn't that ther first time ever she has given words to option three...? ;) She is slowly creeping towards the finishing line.

[JU_88]

I think, Jim, the real highlight from your quoted article is this:
Isn't that ther first time ever she has given words to option three...? ;) She is slowly creeping towards the finishing line.

If that's indeed where she ends up taking this, here is a room full of people who will be surprised. (http://www.littleinteriors.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/empty-Room.jpg)

:)

[Obltn Strand]

Usually I don't get myself involved in politics especially foreign politics. Left or right politicians always proved to be disappointments. Anyway I just can't stop laughing at this:
https://i.imgur.com/zQiWxar.jpg

[Jimbuna]

I think, Jim, the real highlight from your quoted article is this:
Isn't that ther first time ever she has given words to option three...? ;) She is slowly creeping towards the finishing line.

Well as I stated earlier, I can't see us leaving. What is even more worrying is the resentment the public will have towards the EU for many years to come.

EDIT: Meant to include Westminster and those MP's within as well.

[STEED]

In most part the British public have been duped and here is why. Lets say we remain/leave there will be a lot of shouting at each other, remainders and leavers will slag each other and not unite against the very BASTARDS who have stitched the UK up like a kipper. Yes that lot at Westminster they won and will go on to enjoy it.



I urge you all to spread the word...STOP VOTING NOW!


Westminster needs a massive radical change and its us who can bring this about but if most people carry on voting for a foul useless out of date system you get the same old crap, no progress.


Those PIGS will always win until people wake up too what that lot are doing to us.

[JU_88]

I dont think they won exactly, they are just as divided and bickering as the rest of the country, Labour might break up in along neo liberal Blairite / anti semiotic neo marxist lines, Some of the brexiteer cons might Defect to UKIP or Farages UKIP Mk 2 party. (because one UKIP wasn't enough apparently) Lib dems wallowing about in the middle being 2 faced and usless as usual.
So nothing but more hung parliaments on the way probably, and they will all be forced to work with those they disagree with, which they wont like it one bit.
:Kaleun_Thumbs_Up:
Unless is all some grand Illuminati style deception, and behind closed doors they are all slapping each other on the back ,bathing each other in champagne and twirling their mustaches at us behind fake mirrors. But I suspect they might be a bit too incompetent for that.

[STEED]

Todate I see no evidance of the the Cons or Lab breaking down, just look at all the crap both partys have been through and still going through. And still they remain intacted, yes some MP's have left and even if they form a new party it will just go the way as the rest...useless.

It's a win win for these pigs as long as this useless out of date system remains.

[Reece]

Are you talking about Britain or Australia STEED? :hmmm:

[STEED]

Are you talking about Britain or Australia STEED? :hmmm:

Hey for $1000 I will slag off Australia's politicans for you. :03:

[Reece]

Poo!! I was hoping you'd do it for free! :oops:

[STEED]

Poo!! I was hoping you'd do it for free! :oops:

You want free ask Jim whom will be not as good as me. Only the mighty STEED will let rip with wit. :03:

[STEED]

Two leading Brexiteers have said any delay to Brexit would do "incalculable" harm to public trust in politics.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47511848

In my case that is....BULL.

I gave up all hope with you lot long before Brexit was a word.

[Jimbuna]

I dont think they won exactly, they are just as divided and bickering as the rest of the country, Labour might break up in along neo liberal Blairite / anti semiotic neo marxist lines, Some of the brexiteer cons might Defect to UKIP or Farages UKIP Mk 2 party. (because one UKIP wasn't enough apparently) Lib dems wallowing about in the middle being 2 faced and usless as usual.
So nothing but more hung parliaments on the way probably, and they will all be forced to work with those they disagree with, which they wont like it one bit.
:Kaleun_Thumbs_Up:
Unless is all some grand Illuminati style deception, and behind closed doors they are all slapping each other on the back ,bathing each other in champagne and twirling their mustaches at us behind fake mirrors. But I suspect they might be a bit too incompetent for that.

There could well be some elements of truth in that :yep:

[Jimbuna]

Conservative MPs should back Theresa May's deal this week or risk losing Brexit altogether, Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt has warned.

There was "wind in the sails" of those opposing Brexit and the consequences for the party will be "devastating", if it is not delivered, he said.

MPs will vote again on the deal on Tuesday, after rejecting it in January.

Labour's John McDonnell said it looked like the PM had failed to secure any changes and it would be rejected again.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47514248

I hate to admit it but I tend to agree with the Marxist.

[STEED]

https://media.makeameme.org/created/brexit-i-will.jpg

Well the do-do is going to hit the fan next week unless MayPower comes up with a new plan like delay the vote. :haha:

[JU_88]

I hate to admit it but I tend to agree with the Marxist.

A stopped clock is right twice a day :03:

[Jimbuna]

A stopped clock is right twice a day :03:

Very true but what bothers me is the fact imho the deal May supposedly 'negotiated' is worse than a hard brexit and with there being no majority in Westminster for anything whatsoever other than no to a no deal we look....(add the expletive of your choice).

[Reece]

A stopped clock is right twice a day :03:
Unless it's a 24hr clock!! :D

[Jimbuna]

Good grief!! When did Socrates join the forum? :o

[JU_88]

Unless it's a 24hr clock!! :D

A stopped 'digital clock' :hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

Theresa May is heading to Strasbourg for last-ditch talks with senior EU officials aimed at winning MPs' backing for her Brexit deal.

She will meet European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker on the eve of the second vote on her deal.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47530505

Only one chance of getting anything from the talks....take over a dozen or so bottles of what his favourite tipple is, get him paralytic drunk so he'll sign anything put in front of him!!

[JU_88]

Only one chance of getting anything from the talks....take over a dozen or so bottles of what his favourite tipple is, get him paralytic drunk so he'll sign anything put in front of him!!

I had an uncle who tried that one, the plan was to get a buyer sloshed so he could sell him his family textiles business (which he had inherited) at a very 'generous' price.
Backfired horribly when it transpired that the gentleman in question could in fact drink my uncle under the table - and got him to sell it for peanuts. :haha:

So careful what you wish for. not sure our PM has a liver of iron, or an anything of iron for that matter :)
Fun fact -
I've actually met Theresa May briefly when I did an I.T support contract for CCHQ in 2010, she seemed nice enough and all, I set a computer up for her, which she couldn't login to, because she kept entering her password against my username :P (I think its long ago enough that its safe to talk about that now.)

[Jimbuna]

Ya jammy bugga, the Official Secrets Act is something I have to adhere to for life but still not sure what sensitive information I'm supposed to have been made party to :doh:

[JU_88]

Ya jammy bugga, the Official Secrets Act is something I have to adhere to for life but still not sure what sensitive information I'm supposed to have been made party to :doh:

Ha, Nah, I never had to sign or agree to anything like that.

[Jimbuna]

Just received an update on the iPhone stating May has secured 'legally binding' changes to the Brexit deal :hmmm:

[STEED]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47533164

Well the bookies are saying the vote will be closer now. I'm at work of the time of the big vote, I'm going to miss all the action!

[Skybird]

And I spent 20 minutes now trying to find any source that explains en detail what it is and in how far the legal binding quality indeed is a given that doe snot reside just in the realm of abstract theory, but pragmatic reality - if it gets triggered.


To explain this just tomorrow and demanding MP to vote on it just a few minutes later, is hilarious, irresponsible and extremely underhanded. The intention obviously is that nobody shall study it too carefully, but should approve it.



I don't trust this.


P.S. I had found article, Steed. But if you really take it by its word, it explains no detailed content, only rumours the wanted hear-say. It explains nothing.

[STEED]

And I spent 20 minutes now trying to find any source that explains en detail what it is and in how far the legal binding quality indeed is a given that doe snot reside just in the realm of abstract theory, but pragmatic reality - if it gets triggered.


To explain this just tomorrow and demanding MP to vote on it just a few minutes later, is hilarious, irresponsible and extremely underhanded. The intention obviously is that nobody shall study it too carefully, but should approve it.



I don't trust this.Yee of little faith, oh wait I'm in Sky's fan club. :)

I agree Sky I smell a rat and I'm not talking about Jim's apple cider pie. :03:

[Reece]

I smell a rat and I'm not talking about Jim's apple cider pie. :03:
http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/sick/barfing.gif

[Skybird]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47533666

Conservative Dominic Grieve, a former attorney general, said he had looked carefully at the documents overnight and concluded that the changes negotiated did not make "any significant difference" to the backstop.
"It does not allow the UK the right to terminate the backstop at the timing of its own choice," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.
I am not full of doubt to see my earlier assumptions of how the EU plays this match could prevail. I stick to my scepticism because I assume the EU does make the strongest moves in its repertoire, not messing its stratgey of discouragement up afterwards, needlessly. It makes no sense to assume the EU opens a security valve and lets pressure out of the kettle. Its a 180° reverse turn by them if they do that. It makes no sense.

A German radio comment, usually the German media are supportive of the EU and against the UK on this, a German radio comment now said this monring the new deal is nothing really new, just reformulations to hide the truth that the UK cannot leave unilaterally from a Backstop deal.

Politics is a game of lies and betrayal. Never trust it. NEVER.

[Jimbuna]

And I spent 20 minutes now trying to find any source that explains en detail what it is and in how far the legal binding quality indeed is a given that doe snot reside just in the realm of abstract theory, but pragmatic reality - if it gets triggered.


To explain this just tomorrow and demanding MP to vote on it just a few minutes later, is hilarious, irresponsible and extremely underhanded. The intention obviously is that nobody shall study it too carefully, but should approve it.



I don't trust this.




That makes you and me both at this current point in time :yep:

[Jimbuna]

Attorney General Geoffrey Cox has published his updated legal advice before making a Commons statement.

LINK: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/legal-opinion-on-joint-instrument-and-unilateral-declaration-concerning-the-withdrawal-agreement?utm_source=c6aea1cd-4999-4435-aca9-8b6e01cbb853&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate

The nub of the conclusion: However, the legal risk remains unchanged that if through no such demonstrable failure of either
party, but simply because of intractable differences, that situation does arise, the United Kingdom
would have, at least while the fundamental circumstances remained the same, no internationally
lawful means of exiting the Protocol’s arrangements, save by agreement.

:down:

[STEED]

Lots of news on the airways about the Attorney General's view on it, mixed bad from good to bad. Lots of fake news about.

[STEED]

Labour will be voting against no surprise there as they are lusting for power like a druggie needing a big fix. Labour showing to hell with the voters we do as we please.

[Jimbuna]

Simply focus on the conclusion. That is all that matters.

[STEED]

If its another thumping "NO" tonight will MayBot fall? For my money I would say no as she has clearly shown she too lusts power and will not be forced out.

[Skybird]

If its another thumping "NO" tonight will MayBot fall? For my money I would say no as she has clearly shown she too lusts power and will not be forced out.
I would love to sell her a car. 200 thousand miles, rusty and shabby, seventh-hand buy that I catch for 300 bucks - I could easily sell it to her as a factory-new Rolly Royce with special features worth 400 thousand plus. :D I even could make her swear that its a steal!

[Jimbuna]

Hard to predict how big a margin the vote will end in a defeat by but it will be smaller than the last vote margin.

Despite the best efforts of the Attorney General the DUP and ERG have already stated they cannpt support the current deal on offer so this could mean an extention or even the first death knell for Brexit.

[Skybird]

No need to cry if it gets voted down, since even if it passes this "deal" would be ringing the death knell for Brexit in the meaning of the term as well.

They all should really realise this week that all three votes this week should be nayed and a no deal Brexit should be plot course for - like from all beginning on. A delay, whether it be a few weeks or even one or two years, leads nowhere, just to a continuation of the current misery and paralysis. Better an end with hardship, than hardship without ends. In the end, right now the UK can dom nothing. In case of a no deal brexit it at least gains back the freedom to do and to try as it wants, which is more than it has now or will get with a "deal".

This paralysis has to be brought to an end, and if Brexit should have any meanign left to it, then ther eis only one option: to leave without any deal. Due to the lousy preparation of May over the past two years where she was busy with wasting time for nothing, it will be much harder now, but I think it can become a sustainable endavour over medium and long time. The UK and itzs economy in parts have to reinvent itself, however, and I had that on mind from beginning on, namely for the so-called financial sector, which is no real economy anyway. Low tax regime to attract companies from overseas and beating the high-tax competition from the EU. Threatening to stop full criminal and intel and military competition with the rest of Europe if it endlessly blocks new treaties on business and trade. May has played it way too lame and non-aggressive from beginning on. See where it got her: nowhere.

It takes two to tango. Play it tough, UK. Get rid of your corrupted "elite", become a low tax haven to attract investors, and become nasty with the EU. Where the EU is extremely vulnerable, is finances, and being challenged for lowering taxes is the best option to press it for real compromises - not any more of these foul "deals".

And who knows, in the forseeable future, when the next tsunami of symptoms for the collapse of the apper money regime crashes down onto everybody'S heads, the UK may benefit from no longer being so dependent on its financial sector and London City money business - if indeed the time and opportunity gets used for getting homework done and the old ways get modenrised, replaced, chnaged, altered, whatever. The Chinese sign for "risk", I read, is two signs, actually, the one meaning "danger", the other "opportunity". Its not about preserving old ways, but about dramatically changing and replacing them. One thing that neither May'S tories, nor socialist Corbyn'S Tories so far seem to nhave understood. No wonder, since it threatens their members' very lifestyle models by which they make their living. Britons will understand this, send them to hell and face both dangers and chances, or they refuse to understand, and then will need to suffer what they must. The coming years are judgement time.

[Jimbuna]

Quite self-explanatary.

https://i.imgur.com/bEUGfWK.jpg

[Skybird]

My money is on the green little box in the bottom right corner. The agony will continue. Because nothing has changed: nobody baked a cake in the past two years, but everybody wants to keep it while eating it.



The EU operetta parliament may be against allowing it, but I am not in knowledge of whether they can overrrule Juncker & gang.

[Jimbuna]

I agree the outcome of the vote ie an extension but I think ultimately we will remain.

[Jimbuna]

May loses again but by a lower margin of 149 to last time (230), still a significant number though.

Tomorrows vote will be about a no deal Brexit and that result is already obvious, Parliament having already previously rejecting that option.

Should the above happen then Thursday will be a deal for an extension which puts us well and truly under the EU thumb and begs the question how did we get into this position?

The answer to that I'm afraid rests on the politicians shoulders solely.

I predict May will stand down sooner rather than later now.

[JU_88]

May loses again but by a lower margin of 149 to last time (230), still a significant number though.

Tomorrows vote will be about a no deal Brexit and that result is already obvious, Parliament having already previously rejecting that option.

Should the above happen then Thursday will be a deal for an extension which puts us well and truly under the EU thumb and begs the question how did we get into this position?

The answer to that I'm afraid rests on the politicians shoulders solely.

I predict May will stand down sooner rather than later now.

Yup, 2 years of nothing.

[Jimbuna]

Yup, 2 years of nothing.

I doubt the folk in Westminster will ever be allowed to forget their actions and reprehensible stupidity.

[Catfish]

I have no desire to comment any of this.. who do you think will follow after May?

[Jimbuna]

I don't think any of the current senior figures would want to pick up where she leaves off but I will add....anyone but Steptoe.

[skidman]

how did we get into this position?

haughtiness, dupability, dopiness

[mapuc]

In the Danish news some hours ago I saw this Corbyn speaking in the English Parliament.

Is he against this brexit deal for what it is or is he fishing for an extra election ? Which he said in his statement.

Markus

[JU_88]

In the Danish news some hours ago I saw this Corbyn speaking in the English Parliament.

Is he against this brexit deal for what it is or is he fishing for an extra election ? Which he said in his statement.

Markus

Well in way, he'd be crazy not to 'fish' at this point in time. He probably wont get another opportunity as good as this to take power. on the otherhand -
Would he and his kabal be any more competent at handling this? Not likely. So even if he got there, it could quickly become his undoing.
Same goes for who ever takes over from May - if she goes.

[Skybird]

The answer to that I'm afraid rests on the politicians shoulders solely.


Who voted for these political "elites", and legitimises them time and again, and with enthusiastic servility subordinates himself under their claim for command and power although history could and should teach everybody for the better...?

Politicians and politics are a symptom only for the state of mind and character the population lives in. Politicians are neither a God-given, nor do they have any natural fundament for their claim to be set above anyone else and living at his/their cost.

We are too many. No one can overwacth it anymore, it is all too big and too much of everything and too complex. Because we are way too many, in every aspect and meaning imaginable. And that is where any attempt to solve things and heal the world must start. Which means short-sighted short cuts and quick solutions will not work. We talk about a decades- and generations project. A jump in intellectual evolution. And as always wioth evoluution, this our species either adapts to the need, or goes extinct. No gain, no loss, just things in motion there.

Its like with interstellar travel. Such travels will need to be thought of not in terms of individual's lifespans, but generations'. Which gives a whole new meaning to the sentence: the cause weighs heavier than the individual life.

The dome of Cologne was build over centuries and generations as well. Compared to the minds of those ancient people nevertheless tarting with it, modern, super-accelerated man has the awareness span of an ant only.

Politicians are not the cause. They are a symptom (that additionally feeds back on itself, however).

[STEED]

I have no desire to comment any of this.. who do you think will follow after May?You. :DL

Good evening all well I got a text from a mate saying the bitch lost and refused to step down. Well am I that surprised no.

Up the revolution follow Skybird into a new and better age. Let's get the ball rolling here in the UK and onwards to Europe. :03:

Moving on as Jim pointed out the next vote is for a no deal and they will reject that. And finally the last vote to drag this horror show out you bet your arse they will.

[mapuc]

A question

Would an election change the fact that the people in UK voted for a brexit ?

Would the next government do otherwise, like throw this brexit into the bin and let UK stay in EU ?

I....'m just wondering, what can Corbyn do what May couldn't archive during these Brexit-negotiation.



Markus

[JU_88]

A question

Would an election change the fact that the people in UK voted for a brexit ?

Would the next government do otherwise, like throw this brexit into the bin and let UK stay in EU ?

I....'m just wondering, what can Corbyn do what May couldn't archive during these Brexit-negotiation.



Markus

No - it wont make any difference. Corbyns ideas on negotiating with the EU are even worse than May's. Hes a nice guy with some silly ideas and like his Tory counter part, he is virtually spineless. Hes a bit of brexiteer who is forced to bend the knee to his overwhelmingly Pro Remain Party members and supporters.

We are heading for a delay and eventual deal that'll gives us the worst of both Leave and Remain outcomes at the same time.
Out best option now would be leave with No deal, our second best option would be scrap Brexit all together and just remain, but we are heading for the worst option of being caught in some kind of Limbo with most of the EUs rules will still in apply to us, we still pay for membership but we have no voice at the table, screwed our selves basically.
I think the first two options are near impossible now.

[STEED]

Jezzer lusts for power and wants to spend money and bankrupt the UK that is his only desire. As for Brexit he is clueless.

[JU_88]

Jezzer lusts for power and wants to spend money and bankrupt the UK that is his only desire. As for Brexit he is clueless.

Yes Jezza would in all probability, overspend/borrow and trigger a case of capital flight-itus. To what extent i don't know, but now is not really a good time for a gamble on a fringe guy.
Ideally we should never put fringey Marxist or Libertarian Utopian fantasists in control of anything - they don't know what they are doing. they will fix one thing but break 10 things to get there. And they don't care because they put ideology before reason far more than any moderate.

[Skybird]

EUpistas react with anger, dissappointment and end of patience to yesterday's vote. I think that could mean they are now even less willing for any further concessions, if there ever was that on the really important things.

This now could mean that if the vote today gets nayed down, too, and tomorrow they vote in favour of delays - it is not a given at all that the EU side will agree to that delay.

And if the UK tomorrow votes for delay and the eU says No - doesn't that mean a no deal exit as well then (in case the UK does not completely withdraw its Brexit operatipon and steals the referendum)? I don't know.

[Skybird]

German comment on the future of May. Pretty much my reasoning. I still think so far it all went according to plan. Her plan. Her true, real, secret plan. May was against Brexit before she grapped the office of MP immediately after the referendum.

https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.zeit.de%2Fpolitik%2Fausland%2F 2019-03%2Ftheresa-may-grossbritannien-brexit-unterhaus

And thats why I think she will not voluntarily leave until the battle has been fought with either ending having become true. She probabaly sees herself on a mission to prevent Brexit in the meaning of the word.

Its probably all a conspiracy against the referendum, and all acting so far has been a theatre play designed to fool the public.The question is whether or not she will be stopped on the last meters.

[Skybird]

I just learned that the decision whether a request for delay gets accepted by the EU, is made unanimously by the heads of governments of the 27. Just one No spoils the show for London. And the Netherlands just indicated that they are critical of it.


A delay may only be had at the cost of London giving even more concessions.


Hehehe.

[STEED]

Time to stock up on baked beans and soup civil war here we come? :hmmm:

This is going to be the only chance the voters to wake up and say we are no longer going to vote for a out of date system for a bunch of morons feathering their own nests.

[STEED]

Stand by around mid day the Chancellor will be giving his spring statement..

Will it be interesting or another big bore lets go down the pub? :hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

Well in way, he'd be crazy not to 'fish' at this point in time. He probably wont get another opportunity as good as this to take power. on the otherhand -
Would he and his kabal be any more competent at handling this? Not likely. So even if he got there, it could quickly become his undoing.
Same goes for who ever takes over from May - if she goes.

Precisely :yep:

[Jimbuna]

Who voted for these political "elites", and legitimises them time and again, and with enthusiastic servility subordinates himself under their claim for command and power although history could and should teach everybody for the better...?

Politicians and politics are a symptom only for the state of mind and character the population lives in. Politicians are neither a God-given, nor do they have any natural fundament for their claim to be set above anyone else and living at his/their cost.

We are too many. No one can overwacth it anymore, it is all too big and too much of everything and too complex. Because we are way too many, in every aspect and meaning imaginable. And that is where any attempt to solve things and heal the world must start. Which means short-sighted short cuts and quick solutions will not work. We talk about a decades- and generations project. A jump in intellectual evolution. And as always wioth evoluution, this our species either adapts to the need, or goes extinct. No gain, no loss, just things in motion there.

Its like with interstellar travel. Such travels will need to be thought of not in terms of individual's lifespans, but generations'. Which gives a whole new meaning to the sentence: the cause weighs heavier than the individual life.

The dome of Cologne was build over centuries and generations as well. Compared to the minds of those ancient people nevertheless tarting with it, modern, super-accelerated man has the awareness span of an ant only.

Politicians are not the cause. They are a symptom (that additionally feeds back on itself, however).

Parliment voted (over 80%) to accept Article 50 and take us out of the EU.

They are currently defying not only the will of the majority of the UK population but also what they voted for.

All voting is made public and I believe there will be a day of reckoning in many constituencies at the next general election.

That is how democracy so often pans out.

[Jimbuna]

I just learned that the decision whether a request for delay gets accepted by the EU, is made unanimously by the heads of governments of the 27. Just one No spoils the show for London. And the Netherlands just indicated that they are critical of it.


A delay may only be had at the cost of London giving even more concessions.


Hehehe.

And I have just been made privy to the fact that the four Royal Navy Vanguard Class submarines are now on station in the English Channel :doh:

[Catfish]

[...]
They are currently defying not only the will of the majority of the UK population but also what they voted for. [...]

Oh please. I really wonder what is being broadcasted in the News over there. The Uk held a 'referendum' that indulged ignorance and irresponsibility, while abandoning the considered judgment of representative democracy.

The Leave campaign and brexit was also orchestrated by Arron banks (financing Farage, but not only), by the Rupert Murdoch tabloid media and rich brexiters who expected financial advantages and the softening of workers rights by leaving the EU, for their personal advantage (Rees-Mogg anyone? Lmao!)
Not to forget Cambridge analytica, your electoral laws were obviously powerless against "social" media manipulation - which is of course no unique "feature" of the UK.

The referendum campaign was anything but explicit and should have at least had a 2/3d majority. The outcome was not legally binding. But the MPs looked at the result with horror, and those who were responsible ran away. End of story, and the beginning of the brexiters bashing the EU and George Soros (you know "this jew responsible for islamisation", as Farage says) as usual. Disgusting. I would never have thought that this was possible today, least in the UK.

I do not expect much anymore, but the EU would be dumb to let the UK in again after this stunt. I have no pity for the brexiters for what lies ahead when the UK leaves without a deal, but i feel sorry for the other half (or more) of the UK population.

[Skybird]

Parliment voted (over 80%) to accept Article 50 and take us out of the EU.

They are currently defying not only the will of the majority of the UK population but also what they voted for.

All voting is made public and I believe there will be a day of reckoning in many constituencies at the next general election.

That is how democracy so often pans out.


Problem is, its a strawman or a fake law-and-order scheme only. Because politicians never really get held accountable, they are not being held liable with their own personal property, wealth and personal freedom. That elections "hold them accountable" by not bringing them into an office anymore (but another one instead that their party finds for them...) is accountability in the meaning of a bank robber who breaks into his own home bank where he has a bank account, and he breaks into the safe but then gets caught, and the only legal action taken against him is that the bank cancels his bank account. The loot he stole from the safe, he can keep, and he not pay or compensate for it, nor is there any further penalty. And the guards that he may have injured, also must not be paid compensation for.



Politicians must be held accountable with their own private property and belongings. And people who have no own property in the fire, no own skin in the game, must be excluded from candidating. Same is true for the act of voting, it mst be a reward to ward for contributions one made to the common good. Net receivers only shall have no right to vote. Just rights, no duties - it does not work. It works shockingly lousy, to be precise.



Same is being demanded more and more urgently for company managers of big corporations, btw. Many trigger-happy decisions are being made only by the fact that they can make a personal profit by them and must not fear to ever be held accountable.



One of the biggest and in principle most obviosu design flaws with modern socalled democracy: that the helmsman can claim only rights, but must not accept any responsibility worth the name - the worst he has to fear is that he is not allowed to carry on every 4-5 years. If the leading personnel is allowed to exclude itself from the consequences of its decision-making processes, then never can come anything good from this. We could as well accept any leader who claims that God wants him to rule and that it thus is his birth right to do so.


Parasites whereever you look... The vopting schemes makes sure that the ost unsuiotable charcters, those with the biggest mouths and the smallest scruples, win the race - because such characters make the most convincing blenders. The modern understanding of "democracy" does not present an antidot to this problem, as often claimed - but it enables it and makes it even worse. Thats why the establishment of parasites turns right this system into a holy mass and declares it the centre of freedom and politics.



Its raining all afternoon over here. Grey is the day, and grumpy my mood. Perfect match.

[Catfish]

Why shall only politicians be held accountable for subversion, ignorance and manipulation? Why not businessmen bribing and letting themselves be bribed, why not the population being too lazy to inform themselves, or to think critical of obvious manipulation and propaganda of some treacherous tabloid owners, and the far right? No one has a glimpse of what the EU is about and what signed binding laws mean, but all had that special gut feeling? Brilliance!
Arron Banks. Where did the money come from? (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/02/the-guardian-view-on-arron-banks-where-did-the-money-come-from)
You were tricked and f'd by Putin and some rich trolls who were promised billions, riding on a wave of fear and antisemitism. Get over it and fight back!

[Skybird]

Why shall only politicians be held accountable for subversion, ignorance and manipulation? Why not businessmen bribing and letting themselves be bribed, why not the population being too lazy to inform themselves, or to think critical
Indeed, and I often hinted that out. For exmaple just one or two posts above I mentioned "company managers". I mock voters and said often I see them getting what they were dumb enough to legitmise in actions done in their names. I called politicians yesterday not the source of the mess but a symptom of voters damn retarded state og mind. Elections do not equal "best qualification", or "sense of reasponsibility". Most career politicans these days have enbitehr the first, nor the latter, and they come to popwers on the votes of stupid people still participating in elections and going to vote - instead of stormign the party headquarters and setting them ablaze - ALL parties, not just the one or the other - but every Peter and every Paul thinks that he has his glorious five minutesd every four years when he casts a vote and calls that pitiful act by which he usually risks nothing and that usually does not chnage the final result of an election one bithis precious right, his precious freedom: truth is he has a ring in his nose and politicians lead him around in circles by it.


Its a stupid system in which stupid people are allowed, even demanded, to vote other stupid people into powerful positions, and thery do these voting acts on the grounds of their own incompetence on matters and their own lacking insight and their own failing longsightedness. If you add together two stupids, you do not get one raise in cleverness, you only get m ore self-feeding stupidity. Majority does not mean "correct, right, true". It only means somebody managed to organise a bigger mob than yourself. Usually by appealing to mob's lower emotions and personal greeds. And that is usually beign acchieved by yellig louder than the other and telling lies more unscrupulously than the other - and throwing other peoples' money out of the window more irresponsibly in order to bribe the masses - and afterwards letting them pay for it.



Disgusting system it is, a high mass of clueless fools wanting to get betrayed and selfish gangsters eager to betray them. Masters and servants - its the same old game, just the foot- and hand-irons now got a golden coating and a polished leather cushion inside. Ain't freedom great? The point is: the irons are not locked. People could stand up and throw them off any day - if only they would want that. But they don't, and here is where it gets so absolutely hopeless and discouraging.



Once again I recommend Jason Brennan's works. His diagnosis is spot on. And it is devastating.

[Obltn Strand]

Place your bets now...

Sorry the odds will not be good. :03:

For the no deal %

Against no deal %

One thing I can agree of this whole pile of crap.

At least we don't lose Millwall guy because UK citizens are allowed to stay regardless the outcome of brexit...

[Catfish]

@Strand This guy has deserved the highest civil medal indeed, and i guess staying in the EU for any UK citizen will not be a problem whatever becomes off brexit. Umm maybe in Romania, or Hungary.. :03:

@Steed Can someone explain to me what they are up to? :hmmm:

[STEED]

Result of the three votes

MPs have voted to pass the Spelman Amendment by 312 votes to 308.

The amendment states the UK rejects leaving the EU without a deal, in any circumstance.

MPs have voted down the Malthouse Amendment by votes 374 to 164.

The amendment would have instructed the government to extend Article 50 until 22 May, and offer a transitional phase, with no backstop.

MPs APPROVE AMENDED GOVERNMENT MOTION

Votes for: 321
Votes against: 278

https://news.sky.com/story/live-government-to-publish-details-of-no-deal-brexit-plans-11663829

[STEED]

@Steed Can someone explain to me what they are up to? :hmmm:

Parliament has just broken the law by not leaving the EU on March 29th, as said by a Ben Bradley MP.

[Skybird]

"We can see too the crystallisation of a constitutional crisis - one that has been a long time coming. "One where the Commons repeatedly tries to instruct the govt and where the govt refuses because they say they act upon a higher authority - the 'will of the people'.
"Our ancient representative democracy simply cannot digest our recent crash diet of direct democracy.
"It has been percolating for months, for years.
"But the ultimate battle - between Commons, government and electorate is now here. "

From Steed's link.

With those votes' results of today, they have entangled themselves in contradictions. They want what is not possible to be had. Brexit the EU's way is no real Brexit and turns the UK into a vasall beign at the mercy oif the EU (which is set for punishment and executing a deterring example), Brexit the UK's way will not and will never be agreed on by the EU. They can negotiate this until hell freezes over - its two irreconcilable positions. And just becasue some UKlers want to talk does not mean that the EU wants to talk any longer, too.



From first week on two years ago I was irritatzed by the stamenets made by the British potlicians that to me just illustrated a splendid lack of sense of realism and dreamdancing.

[STEED]

The odds on a people's referendum and a general election have increased. Well we shall see in days to come, reports of government minsters ignored the three line whips coming in. Some Jr minister resign but no major ones yet or any sackings.

UPDATE

17 Ministers went against May.

Parliament is now running Brexit not the Government.

No PM in their right mind would remain in office, clearly May has gone mad.

[Catfish]

@Skybird and those other brexiters here:
How exactly does the UK become a vassal state when following May's brexit plan (there seems to be no other plan anyway?)? And, evidence please apart from buzzwords if you'd be so kind.

[Skybird]

But it may be according to her real secret plan. To prevent Brexit.

One cannot say this often enough: until the Brexit referendum, May was pro EU and against a Brexit and the very referendum. And this should have changed over night, from one day to the next, just because the referendum? C'mon man!

She probably sees herself as a martyr sacrificing herself for the better of the country: a country not doing a real Brexit, that is.

There are only two realistic explanations that really make sense: the above, or that she indeed is a living braindead zombie, a total retard, stubborn but dumb like a log of wood. But the cooperation between her and the EU, the effort from day one on to bring the crisis to this boiling point and to play down the clock to maximise pressure on the parliament, is too obviously contradicting the assumption that she is just stupid.

This is a martyr on a mission. And maybe she plays it smarter than many others, including Johnson and Corbyn. I say: reward her an Oscar for each of the past two years!

[Skybird]

@Skybird and those other brexiters here:
How exactly does the UK become a vassal state when following May's brexit plan (there seems to be no other plan anyway?)? And, evidence please apart from buzzwords if you'd be so kind.
You have asked this question two or three times in this thread now, and every time got answers from me and I think from others. Full, valid, realistic answers. Take it or leave it.

[Catfish]

No you always use the rhetorics and buzzwaords like "Eu slaves", the Uk becoming a "vassall state" and conspiracies of whatnot and May trying to evade a brexit. Bull.
How. does. the. backstop. make. the. UK. a. "vassal state".

The EU has made it perfectly clear from day one that it will not accept a hard border between Ireland and the EU when Ireland does not wish this.

You mean that the UK or whoever of the 50+percent demand to remain in the EU single market while not accepting the EU's trade regulations framework? So to be in the EU after brexit for decisions and trade while not being a member? Sorry, no deal. Either in, or out. You cannot have parallel lines that cross each other.
Whatever happens: deal, hard brexit or no brexit, there will be one future to decide, and it is not the decision of the EU.

What can anyone expect from a further time to discuss, The Netherlands have already made clear they will not accept a further diversion by the UK, and one veto of the 27 EU countries is enough. UK parliament has also decided against a further delay, so there's no point in discussing that anymore.
Thinking of the EU reformation and forthcoming elections i understand that the EU does not want the UK chaos swap over, so maybe a hard brexit is now even in the interest of the EU.

B.t.w. here's the withdrawal paper: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/draft_withdrawal_agreement_0.pdf, for anyone to read and criticize, no trap and no blurring anything.


"Vassal":

"Historically, the term comes from feudal times, when a “vassal” was someone who held land if they promised allegiance to a prince or king, with obligations often including military support in exchange for certain privileges.
Usage of the term developed over time to refer to those who were subordinate to others, and it featured as such in Sonnet 58 by William Shakespeare, when the bard called himself a “vassal” to his lover.

Politically, a number of empires set up vassal states over time, which were based on tribes, kingdoms, or city-states controlling subjects without having to conquer or govern them.

The country that became a vassal state lost an independent say in its foreign policy, while also providing troops or paying tribute when the ‘senior ally’ asked them to.

In the current sense, there’s nothing to suggest that any of this will happen under the terms of the draft withdrawal agreement.

Just don’t be surprised if the term continues to pop up between now and Britain’s departure from the EU."

[Reece]

Although the Queen doesn't hold much clout I think it is about time she made a statement to the fact that the politicians must do what the people/voters want, no matter how hard it is. :hmmm:

[mapuc]

EU and the Article 50.

From all what I have heard and read about this Article 50 in the EU-something.

It seems to me they have made this article so complicated and
bureaucratically that it's almost impossible for a member to leave EU.

Markus

[Reece]

What are they going to do if England leaves breaking Article 50? :roll:

[Skybird]

No you always use the rhetorics and buzzwaords like "Eu slaves", the Uk becoming a "vassall state" and conspiracies of whatnot and May trying to evade a brexit. Bull.
How. does. the. backstop. make. the. UK. a. "vassal state".

The EU has made it perfectly clear from day one that it will not accept a hard border between Ireland and the EU when Ireland does not wish this.

You mean that the UK or whoever of the 50+percent demand to remain in the EU single market while not accepting the EU's trade regulations framework? So to be in the EU after brexit for decisions and trade while not being a member? Sorry, no deal. Either in, or out. You cannot have parallel lines that cross each other.
Whatever happens: deal, hard brexit or no brexit, there will be one future to decide, and it is not the decision of the EU.

What can anyone expect from a further time to discuss, The Netherlands have already made clear they will not accept a further diversion by the UK, and one veto of the 27 EU countries is enough. UK parliament has also decided against a further delay, so there's no point in discussing that anymore.
Thinking of the EU reformation and forthcoming elections i understand that the EU does not want the UK chaos swap over, so maybe a hard brexit is now even in the interest of the EU.

B.t.w. here's the withdrawal paper: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/draft_withdrawal_agreement_0.pdf, for anyone to read and criticize, no trap and no blurring anything.


"Vassal":

"Historically, the term comes from feudal times, when a “vassal” was someone who held land if they promised allegiance to a prince or king, with obligations often including military support in exchange for certain privileges.
Usage of the term developed over time to refer to those who were subordinate to others, and it featured as such in Sonnet 58 by William Shakespeare, when the bard called himself a “vassal” to his lover.

Politically, a number of empires set up vassal states over time, which were based on tribes, kingdoms, or city-states controlling subjects without having to conquer or govern them.

The country that became a vassal state lost an independent say in its foreign policy, while also providing troops or paying tribute when the ‘senior ally’ asked them to.

In the current sense, there’s nothing to suggest that any of this will happen under the terms of the draft withdrawal agreement.

Just don’t be surprised if the term continues to pop up between now and Britain’s departure from the EU."


Catfish, stop it. This obsession of yours to ignore the obvious if it helps to defend your beloved EU and to claim that it is playing fair and honest, by now has become stale and boring. You got your answer. Repeatedly. And you do not like it since it collides with your positive view of the EU. End of story.

[Catfish]

[...] From all what I have heard and read about this Article 50 in the EU-something.
It seems to me they have made this article so complicated and
bureaucratically that it's almost impossible for a member to leave EU.
Markus
?
Article 50 (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:12012M050&from=EN)

Although the Queen doesn't hold much clout I think it is about time she made a statement to the fact that the politicians must do what the people/voters want, no matter how hard it is. :hmmm:
Just of all the Queen to support what the voters want.. maybe right now she's thinking of abolishing democracy :D

[Jimbuna]

Does anyone know the contact address for Guy Fawkes?

[Jimbuna]

Theresa May will make a third attempt to get her EU withdrawal deal through Parliament in the next week.

She told MPs that if her deal fails again to get their backing, a lengthy delay to Brexit may be needed.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47564793

And so the game goes on and on and on and on and on.......https://i.imgur.com/ZCHgi75.gif

[STEED]

^Under Parliament's own rules she can not so they are bending their own rules. Would not surprise me if the Speaker of the House dug up some long winded document of years gone by to allow it.

The EU is finished on the matter they have had enough and made it even more clear but this stupid women whom is unfit to be PM goes on her merry way. :doh:


I think it was you jim who posted they will get punished at the ballot box, well this subject was on the radio last night and not one caller believed that would happen. One women rang in saying you could put a tin of beans up as a candidate and as long as their was a red rosette on it people would vote for it. Same in Tory seats in their case a gold brick. Not enough people are wide wake smelling the coffee in this country and they being HoC know that.

[Jimbuna]

STAUNCH Brexiteer Steve Baker last night revealed the Eurosceptic European Research Group (ERG) has plans to ensure the UK leaves the EU on March 29.

Watch the short clip.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1099896/brexit-news-latest-steve-baker-ERG-ITV-Peston-leave-EU-March-29-theresa-may-vote

Or this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtxYn5zgyn8

[STEED]

I doubt it, there is more chance of a general election. Mind you I don't believe much these days from that lot at Westminster.

[Jimbuna]

The last thing the Tories want at present is a general election but obviously Steptoe would love one as he witnesses the Tories in disarray.

I've a sneaky suspicion pland may be afoot for a bonding of the party but the price will almost certainly be that May must walk immediately after whatever kind of Brexit we end up with.

[Skybird]

When voting results mean nothing anymore and votings get repeated endlessly to secure the outcome just anyone, someone demands, than the very system, so-to-speak its "structural integrity", has desintegrated already.



If this were a ship, it already would be somewhere between the surface and the bottom of the sea.



Its not caused by Brexit, however, but is a fundamental design flaw that a conflict-heavy event like Brexit just has managed to reveal for the first time ever.


BTW, why not voting the way May wants to have it - and afterwards by her own logic demand that more votings are being held - now with the goal to get the result that her opponents want to see? Of course, like she does now, the others must be allowed to do as well: repeating it as often as needed to get the result wanted. Which then gives May the right to start another series of votings. And on and on it goes, giving the political elite a completely new way to justify its mere existence: "without us, there would be no votings anymore - see, you need us, therefore!"


There should be a international, binding law - amongst other significant changes to current systems - that says that any voting in parliaments and in public referendums around the world can be repeated not before lets say 10 or even 15, 20 years have passed.



The more exceptions from rules get defined, the less meaning a "rule" has, and the greater the invitation is to bypass it. Its corruption, clear and simple.

[Jimbuna]

Parliament are soon to be given updated advice from the Attorney General regarding the Backstop but I doubt it will make any difference because he has already advised the only way out of that would be to claim a fundamental change in circumstances therefore bringing about the breaking of an international treaty.

Can you imagine what matters will be like if this mess isn't sorted out before the EU elections in June or July?......a boat load of British MEP's most of whom will be elected on EU sceptical tickets with the intent purpose of causing as much hassle as possible over in Brussels :nope:

[STEED]

Well there go folks the government's amendment goes through. We are not leaving on March 29th

Democracy is dead, Parliment is a dictatorship time for the revolution and take back what we have lost.

https://news.sky.com/story/live-mps-to-vote-on-delaying-brexit-after-ruling-out-no-deal-11664834

[Skybird]

London-Brussel co-produced sitcom second to none. Now with announced intention for a complete new season being produced. Many episodes with more of the same! Don't change the recipe! I cant stop watching it!

[JU_88]

I cant stop watching it!

I can, in fact I'm tempted to take a 'if i ignore all news on brexit, will I actually notice any of its effects in my day to day life?' test.
I guess I'll notice when I try to move to Spain in a few years with my blue passport :D - if that even happens in the end.

[mapuc]

I hope the English people will show same determination as they have shown so many times, if they have to vote again in a second referendum.

I hope the outcome of this eventually referendum will be 65-70 % for Brexit.

(Yes I'm against EU as it is now)

Markus

[STEED]

London-Brussel co-produced sitcom second to none. Now with announced intention for a complete new season being produced. Many episodes with more of the same! Don't change the recipe! I cant stop watching it!
Well good luck Sky, I don't watch it every day it would make me sick watching those pigs who have taken away democracy and gave us a dictatorship.

[JU_88]

I hope the English people will show same determination as they have shown so many times, if they have to vote again in a second referendum.

I hope the outcome of this eventually referendum will be 65-70 % for Brexit.

(Yes I'm against EU as it is now)

Markus

Polls suggest it probably would be about the same or a slightly higher % in favour of Brexit, but polls are not to be trusted, and anyway - it comes down to Turn out, some hard brexiteers might be too angry to vote in a second referendum since they already made their voices heard the first time, where as hard remainers would come out in force in the hope they could finally correct what they always saw as a mistake.

[STEED]

One of the amenment votes today had a second reforendrum in it and was rejected.

[JU_88]

One of the amenment votes today had a second reforendrum in it and was rejected.

Good, because it would be a complete waste of time.

[STEED]

A freind of mind will be on a Brexit march on March 29th I think he is wasting his time. Democracy has fallen today I find that far more important and very troubling.

[mapuc]

So if the parliament overrule the result of this referendum..by halting the Brexit and in the end throw it into the bin.

What happens then….if this happens ?(which I hope doesn't)

Markus

[Jimbuna]

Good, because it would be a complete waste of time.

You can just see it now.....remainers win and brexiters cry foul and insist on best of three :doh:

[Jimbuna]

So if the parliament overrule the result of this referendum..by halting the Brexit and in the end throw it into the bin.

What happens then….if this happens ?(which I hope doesn't)

Markus

If it isn't sorted by end of June Markus, sit back and watch the fun unfold at the EU elections.

[STEED]

Thanks David Cameron and where are you? Oh in your shed writing your book. Let this be a lesson for all and stop voting for these swine who care not about you.

And if there are EU elections in the UK you can get stuffed and will not vote.

[Jimbuna]

Perhaps you won't but plenty of UKIP and anti-EU will.

[STEED]

Perhaps you won't but plenty of UKIP and anti-EU will.
Wast of time all they will do is sit around shouting out Boo as if that will do anything. I voted once in a EU election then came to the conclusion most were only in it for the money. Well if people think it will do good carry on but it will not change a thing.

[Jimbuna]

Only time will tell.

[Jimbuna]

South Shields MP defies whip and resigns frontbench position to vote against a second referendum https://www.shieldsgazette.com/news/politics/south-shields-mp-defies-whip-and-resigns-frontbench-position-to-vote-against-a-second-referendum-1-9651631

Well done Emma, I never thought you had it in you.

It was only a few months ago you touched my hand in Whiteleas and asked me what it would take for me to rejoin the party and my answer remains unchanged "Not until Steptoe has gone".

[Skybird]

So if the parliament overrule the result of this referendum..by halting the Brexit and in the end throw it into the bin.

What happens then….if this happens ?(which I hope doesn't)

Markus
Adding to Jim's reply, a deepening of the rifts in society would happen, a polarization, like you witness in the US over Trump. Already now many families are deeply split in their poltical opinions, correspondents report. A growing anger at the polticla caste and at the EU. And then there is Ireland again.

[Catfish]

brexit is boring (https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-britain-small-boring-and-stupid-theresa-may-eu-withdrawal-deal/)

"Let go of any illusions that this drama is about trade protocols, residency rights or the status of the Irish border. The histrionics going on in the United Kingdom aren't even really about its impending departure from the European Union — or about Prime Minister Theresa May’s tenuous attempts to cling to power.
Brexit is the story of a proud former imperial power undergoing a mid-life crisis. The rest of the world is left listening to Britain’s therapy session as they drone on about their ex-spouse, the EU: When will they stop talking and just move on?"

I don't hold my breath. :03:

[Skybird]

The Times writes the EU will agree a delay only if the UK holds a second referendum. Would not be the first time that the EU enforces a repeating of voting procedures when the first vote did not had the result that was demanded.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/eu-will-agree-to-extra-time-if-there-is-a-second-brexit-referendum-z6td8nvd7?utm_source=POLITICO.EU&utm_campaign=154de0543d-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_03_15_06_44&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_10959edeb5-154de0543d-190417541

But the House has voted that there will be no second referendum. And the scum in Brussel certainly has taken note of that - this demand now tells what the EU scum really thinks of sovereignty of nations and parliamentary democracy. Their blabla is only a farce.

I will find the egg-dancing ahead most entertaining. I am certain there are some who indeed would support that - and would love to disregard the just held voting. The soap must continue! :yeah: I need a bigger reserve of popcorn.

[Catfish]

The Times writes the EU will agree a delay only if. [blahblah]

No, Italy will block it.
Last week Arron Banks and Andy Wigmore went to Veneto to pay Putin's european partner (https://www.neweurope.eu/article/putins-party-deals-italys-far-right-lega-nord/) (Italy's fascist Lega Nord (https://www.kyivpost.com/russia/financial-times-putins-party-signs-deal-italys-far-right-lega-nord.html)) a visit. They have agreed to "help" Britain exit without a deal. Salvini will block an extension of article 50. There's only one country needed afaik.

[Skybird]

Hehe, more popcorn...


https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fpolitik%2Fausland% 2Fexit-vom-brexit-briten-koennten-eu-austritt-widerrufen-a-1258111.html

[mapuc]

This is what I would do.

1. When a county wants to leave EU-they are free to do so.

2. The break from the EU, are either on 30th of June or 31th of december

3. When a country leave the EU, they leave with everything. (don't know how to explain this)

4. The negotiation about future agreement and other things, stats after they have left the EU and not before.

That's how I would do it.

Markus

[STEED]

If this is true the end result of this the UK will remain in the EU because Parliament lied all along to us. I am now far more concerned about them breaking the law which they put in stone. How the heck can anyone vote for criminals!

From Skys link
The European Union is poised to tell Theresa May that she must hold a second referendum or soften Brexit in return for them granting a lengthy delay to Britain’s departure date.

The Times understands that the prime minister has been told by senior EU officials and other European leaders that conditions for an extension to the Article 50 exit process would include the option of a second vote on EU membership.

Mrs May is expected to ask a summit of EU leaders next week for a delay to Brexit. Unless the House of Commons has ratified the withdrawal agreement.....

[Jimbuna]

The Times writes the EU will agree a delay only if the UK holds a second referendum. Would not be the first time that the EU enforces a repeating of voting procedures when the first vote did not had the result that was demanded.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/eu-will-agree-to-extra-time-if-there-is-a-second-brexit-referendum-z6td8nvd7?utm_source=POLITICO.EU&utm_campaign=154de0543d-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_03_15_06_44&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_10959edeb5-154de0543d-190417541

But the House has voted that there will be no second referendum. And the scum in Brussel certainly has taken note of that - this demand now tells what the EU scum really thinks of sovereignty of nations and parliamentary democracy. Their blabla is only a farce.

I will find the egg-dancing ahead most entertaining. I am certain there are some who indeed would support that - and would love to disregard the just held voting. The soap must continue! :yeah: I need a bigger reserve of popcorn.

Matters are getting beyond farcical now......double on that popcorn reserve, I may well be joining you.

[Skybird]

I think the scenario Der Spiegel depivts in my translator link is even more farcical. And it could mean that the UK brings the EU into very rough waters indeed. Maybe they should threatne more obviously to play that card. It should cause white faces in Brussels.


I also like the looming threat of estblishing an extreme low tax regime in the UK to compete for businesses and companies. It would put a challenge to the socialist endless plduneeing dream on the continent and the hilarious maximum taxation habits we have over here. It has become unacceptably excessive - and they want to rais eever more taxes. Protection money blackmailers they are. One half of an ordinary income, even more, must be handed over to their wickedplans and fraudulent schemes. I call it modern state slavery, and I am bitterly serious. Time to gag them. If not now, when then...? We need more tax havens again, more states willing to show the middle finger to the maximum taxation tyrannies, states that take the claimserious to compete for the best specialists and workers and companies by making themeselves attractive again. Nothing shows faster how limited and impotent socialist planned economy dreams are, nothign brings them to an end faster, than market competition.


I could even imagine the UK to dleiver an especially hurting sting to the EU by rivalling Italy in a bid to become China'S dominant European anchor state for the Wetsenr end of the Silk road project. Dangerous to be partners with the Chinese, however, one has to be constantly on guard and resist the temptation to overspend oneself with Chinese help into the Chinese credit trap. But wouldnt that make Eurocrats fume in Brussel if London turns out to become Chinas preferred Silk Road partner in Europe...? LOL Its not very likely, however, but one can dream, yes?

[STEED]

I think the scenario Der Spiegel depivts in my translator link is even more farcical. And it could mean that the UK brings the EU into very rough waters indeed. Maybe they should threatne more obviously to play that card. It should cause white faces in Brussels.

Problem is Sky we got a interfering busy body PM who voted "REMAIN" in the referendum who clearly is not hitting back any more. Up to the end of 2018 she was saying big things like we will leave and turn the UK into a tax haven long with a few other comment but this year she has been a wet soggy paper bag. Parliament in most part wants to remain in the EU and has shown us this fact this week by breaking their own law in stone saying we will leave the EU on the 29th March 2019 with or without a deal.

I see no hope what so ever, the political elite have stitched up the UK like a kipper.

[STEED]

Pro-EU MP Nick Boles resigns from local Conservative party over Brexit

In a letter to members of the Grantham and Stamford Conservative Association, Mr Boles said he was "not willing to do what would be necessary to restore a reasonable working relationship with a group of people whose values and views are so much at odds with my own".

He will continue to sit as the Conservative MP for the constituency, but his association will be free to choose another candidate for the next general election.

https://news.sky.com/story/pro-eu-mp-nick-boles-resigns-from-local-conservative-party-over-brexit-11667069

Hang on can he do that? What is he some sort of Ind-Con?

[Skybird]

Not just the UK. London is everywhere. In Germany it is as bad. I am not so unforgivingly hostile to politicians for no reason.

[Jimbuna]

Never fear, Nigel is here :doh:

Nigel Farage leads march over Brexit betrayal https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/03/16/nigel-farage-leads-march-brexit-betrayal/

[Mr Quatro]

I have always been for what the people of the UK want and have clearly voiced and voted their desire to leave the EU, but the final verdict is still on hold.

This has taken so long to complete that the minds in charge of the UK leaving the European Union (on both sides of the channel) now want a re-vote by the people in hopes they will change their mind and stay in the EU.

Which is completely wrong to me. :yep:

[Catfish]

I have always been for what the people of the UK want and have clearly voiced and voted their desire to leave the EU, but the final verdict is still on hold.

This has taken so long to complete that the minds in charge of the UK leaving the European Union (on both sides of the channel) now want a re-vote by the people in hopes they will change their mind and stay in the EU.

Which is completely wrong to me. :yep:

It was and is not clear at all.

1. The leading brexiters like Johnson, Farage, Banks have betrayed the people with lies that have been called out. After the "referendum". Part of them have meanwhile confessed they lied.
2. Brexit was staged by some rich who thought they would fare better without the EU. From EU-granted workers rights, to payment, to firing, to create a tax haven for themselves, and generally not have to care for certain values or restrictions. And now they are all leaving .. hmmm
3. The brexiters who after all got the UK into this situation ran away in the second they saw that brexit was even feasible. No one of this treacherous scum had any idea about what to do, and they all ran away when they had to deliver the brexit thay preached.
4. The referendum was not legally binding, England has a representative democracy not designed for referendums. But no one cared.
5. If at all there should have been a real public vote for or against staying with the EU, with a certain significant majority as a precondition for such an important, all-changing decision. The way it is now it only divides the people.
6. Last not least the brexit and leave campaign has been financed and influenced by Russia, by paying some rich a$$holes to make them even richer, and by "social media" companies trying to bend the referendum the russian way (Cambridge Analytica, but not only). Arron Banks may be accused in court, but again it seems no one cares or asks questions.
7. Cummings.. is another chapter. Seems he was not in for the money or political spin, but i wonder what he learned in those three years, in Russia.

In that light and with all this information a new real vote (not a "referendum") with a 2/3rd majority should be held indeed, but it seems Banks and some other brexiters of course fear a result, especially when the missing third of young voters appears on the scene.

Poor Boris Johnson, it seems he is the only one who did get no money out of it.

[Skybird]

It is quite revealing that the British political caste as well as the eU politicla caste follow their own rules only if they see fit to do so, and violate their own rules if they see fit. In other words: to them, rules mean nothing. Treaties mean nothing. Laws mean nothing.

The EU once said that if only one nation's people would say No, the Eu coinstitution could not pass and would bea a thing fo the past. Then the Diutch saiud No. The Irish said No. The french said No. The reaciton of the EU: they called for ans insisted ona time of relfeciton that it used to mount unfoirseen pressure on the giovenbrment of these nations to vilklate the previuozsly an dunaninmously agree rule, they intimdated and bribed them into holding another referendum, and they indicated that if the answer would be again a No, they would enforce even a third referendum. The dictgate of Lisbon then was passed,Valery Giscard d'Estaing as well as Helmut Schmnidt as well as late ron Roman Herzig said that it was indeed just the same text as in the first referendum, only the paragrpahs reshuffled, and conflict-heavy content beignb hidden in massively boosted appendices where it was more difficult to find.

Such is the understanding of democracy and the people as the first and only sovereign in a state from which all power and legitimation emits. Democracy (modern) and majority votes as decision building principle only as long as it delivers what the party fat cats demand to see in results - else dictatorship, treason, betrayal, bribery, blackmaling, intimidation, threats.

That is neither democracy (modern), nor freedom. Its syndicate crime. And the EU excels in that - but as we can see, the British caste of politicians are in hot pursuit. On both sides of the channel they all should end up on the gallow.


If ordinary Peter or Paul would behave like these people, they would disappear behind bars for many, many years to come. Not so politicians. They have a career from doing so. Privileges on and on. Special lgal status saving them from the law and order shcmees the orindary man gets subjected to. And they will neve r be held accoutnab le, they will not be held liable with their own wealth and rights and property.



Here we see an experienced politician on the left, and a newbie to politics on the right.
https://regionalheute.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Waldbesuch-Zecken-foto-Thorsten-Raedlein--950x633.jpg

[STEED]

Nuts to Brexit lets play who will be the next LibDem leader.

Sir Vince Cable has announced he will step down as leader of the Liberal Democrats in May, saying it has been a "privilege" to lead the party at a "crucial time".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47587677

This needs a bit of a study as I'm rusty on the world of LibDems.

Catfish could be at home with them and they did declare a while ago you don't have to be a MP. :hmmm:

[Catfish]

@Steed (from the article posted):

"Whoever leads the party next will be starting from a relatively low base and renewing the party's appeal will be at once an opportunity and a daunting task."

But this means real.. work!? Nope :hmph:

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

I have got enough of this nonsense. The UK already had favourable membership conditions (exceptions from rules, reduced membership costs, etc.) and that wasn't enough. Then your overnment comes into the negotiation table thinking that they could get better terms than the UK had as a member state. Why would the EU and its remaining member states accept that?


Here is this voter's wish list to the EU leadership:


1. Withdraw that "divorce deal". The House of Common does not want it. There is no point in wasting time in this political merry-go-around.


2. No extensions. There is almost zero chance that the House of Commons would agree to any credible alternative plan. Additional time for the same old bickering is unacceptable.


3. Make sure the UK knows where the exit door is and how to use it. There is atleast one positive thing it the Brexit: One whiner less in the negotiation table.

[mapuc]

Going away from this EU-Brexit discussion with a question about the English Parliament.

A question I keep on forgetting to ask you.

Most of the time when I see an English politicians making a speech I see row of books laying with the back up and the opening down on the table in front of them.

What kind of books is that ? The English law or The English Charter ?

Back to this EU-Brexit discussion

Markus

[Skybird]

Going away from this EU-Brexit discussion with a question about the English Parliament.

A question I keep on forgetting to ask you.

Most of the time when I see an English politicians making a speech I see row of books laying with the back up and the opening down on the table in front of them.

What kind of books is that ? The English law or The English Charter ?

Back to this EU-Brexit discussion

Markus
As far as I can regain it from some forgotten corners of my memory:


You have there a golden mace that symbolises the monarch'S authority and presence, if the mace is removed, any procededings must be brought to a stop until the mace is brought back. The books are editions of books of ceremonial relevance, for example during inaugurations, included is a bible, plus publications of older, earlier Commons publications and so-called Acts of Parliament. Then there is plenty of pragmatic stuff, like glasses for water, empty paper if somebody needs it, and so forth. The left and right side benches are kept apart by a certain distance that in older ages represented twice the length of longswords or hellbards, so that if emotions got hot and during a debate weapons were drawn, members of the house nevertheless would not accidentally strike and hurt or even kill each other becasue there was and sitll is kind of a ritualised bane that demands that you stay on ypur side of the room/benches that matches your party. That is also the reaosn why so many members must stand and even stay outside the room, becasue the place has not sufficient places to sit for all. Its all pretty ritualised, and s bit chaotic in my perception, but this love for ceremonial stuff and ritual is what we love in them Brits and their monarchy, don'T we.



Think of it as something like Gormenghast. :D

[mapuc]

Thank you Skybird

I never gave the shape of the table any thoughts, just those books.

Markus

[STEED]

Nuts to Brexit lets play who will be the next LibDem leader.

This needs a bit of a study as I'm rusty on the world of LibDems.
I am stumped on this one as I just can not see who would replace Vince.



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/03/16/theresa-may-patriotic-thing-mps-do-vote-deal/

If you fail and second fail push push again and bore everyone to death so in the end they may vote for it. Then declare its the greatest victory of all time and whoop it up.

[Catfish]

I have got enough of this nonsense. The UK already had favourable membership conditions (exceptions from rules, reduced membership costs, etc.) and that wasn't enough. Then your government comes into the negotiation table thinking that they could get better terms than the UK had as a member state. Why would the EU and its remaining member states accept that? ] [...]

Quite right, and a refreshing argument after all this "we can't say it so directly, they are so easily insulted .. meemeemee..." :haha:

The real problem is that feelings have become "facts", and people are too lazy to think for themselves. Not alone a UK problem of course, but explaining a lot.

[Jimbuna]

Going away from this EU-Brexit discussion with a question about the English Parliament.

A question I keep on forgetting to ask you.

Most of the time when I see an English politicians making a speech I see row of books laying with the back up and the opening down on the table in front of them.

What kind of books is that ? The English law or The English Charter ?

Back to this EU-Brexit discussion

Markus

Sky has given an accurate response in #9481

[Jimbuna]

I have got enough of this nonsense. The UK already had favourable membership conditions (exceptions from rules, reduced membership costs, etc.) and that wasn't enough. Then your overnment comes into the negotiation table thinking that they could get better terms than the UK had as a member state. Why would the EU and its remaining member states accept that?


Here is this voter's wish list to the EU leadership:


1. Withdraw that "divorce deal". The House of Common does not want it. There is no point in wasting time in this political merry-go-around.


2. No extensions. There is almost zero chance that the House of Commons would agree to any credible alternative plan. Additional time for the same old bickering is unacceptable.


3. Make sure the UK knows where the exit door is and how to use it. There is atleast one positive thing it the Brexit: One whiner less in the negotiation table.

That would certainly work for me and when you refer to my country as a 'whiner' don't your country amongst a few others I suspect start 'whining' when you are asked to pay in extra contributions to make up the shortfall of a former (still currently) major financial contributor/net payer.

Looking at the 2016 figures (happy to see anything more current if available) the UK is the third largest payer (13.45% of the EU budget) and Finland ranks thirteenth contributing a massive 1.56%

I appreciate it is easy to become a tad brash when posting online but in the cold light of day I think it wiser if a sense of proportionality and forbearance can be maintained whenever possible.

[Skybird]

Finland paid 1.5 bn to the EU in 2017, and got back 1.6 bn. No by a huge margin it nevertheless is a net receiver, and net receivers fear for their free income if net payers threaten to walk away. ;


https://fullfact.org/media/uploads/UKs_EU_membership_fee_in_2017.png


In case of Germany, the difference between payments and paybacks was 14.3 bn in 2016 at Germany's disadvantage. In 2017 it still was around 10 bn.


Its peanuts, more or less. The real bone breakers are the Euro liabilities, Here we talk about hundreds of billions, and in case of Germany: in excess of a trillion. If we count the German saver's property as well, trillions in plural, please. Of both desasters, Euro and EU, the Euro is the far worse desaster for Germany. The economic gain we get from it, in no way comepnsates for it and usually gets hopelessly glossed over in our state quality media. The Euro costs us far more than we gain from it, summa summarum. Far more. Even worse if we keep our exports alive by providing European net receivers the money the money need to buy our exported products. Dumm, dumm, dumm, dumm, dumm... We work for free.

[Jimbuna]

Thanks Sky, I thought there might be more recent figures out there.

To maintain a sense of clarity below is the link to my source.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/316691/european-union-eu-budget-share-of-contributions/

[Jimbuna]

Theresa May has urged MPs to vote as "democrats and patriots" as part of a desperate effort to get her twice-rejected Brexit deal approved by parliament.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/may-pleads-with-mps-to-act-like-patriots-over-brexit/ar-BBURDCd?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignout

I still don't like this deal she is persistently trying to peddle but it would appear there is a steady trickle of increasing support.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

That would certainly work for me and when you refer to my country as a 'whiner' don't your country amongst a few others I suspect start 'whining' when you are asked to pay in extra contributions to make up the shortfall of a former (still currently) major financial contributor/net payer.

Looking at the 2016 figures (happy to see anything more current if available) the UK is the third largest payer (13.45% of the EU budget) and Finland ranks thirteenth contributing a massive 1.56%Here are some calculations from 2016 figures which were latest available in accessible format.

Finland

Contributes
1,828.65 M€

Receives
1,530.76 M€

Percentaga returned
83,7%

Net contribution
-297.89 M€

Per capita
-297,890,000 / 5,513,000 = -54.03 €

United Kingdom

Contributes
12,759.60 M€

Receives
7,051.55 M€

Percentage returned
55,3 %

Net contribution
-5,708.05 M€

Per capita
-5,708,050,000 / 66,040,229 = -86,43 €

In both cases per capita is calculated using 2017 estimates as posted in Wikipedia. Other data is retrieved from here:

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/external/html/budgetataglance/default_en.html

In summary its true that net payment (for that year, they vary from year to year) is smaller regarless of how you calculate it. However direct comparison between percentages of the EU budget at large paint somewhat skewed picture.

Finland paid 1.5 bn to the EU in 2017, and got back 1.6 bn. No by a huge margin it nevertheless is a net receiver, and net receivers fear for their free income if net payers threaten to walk away.My visual impairement has progerred to the point where getting information from pictures is problematic. Do you have a text based source for same data?

[Catfish]

Again, this is not about facts but "gut feeling". Those feelings become facts in the mind of some, and everything that does not fit into their filter bubble perception is called fake news. By those some.

It has been perfectly clear that richer countries with thriving economies pay more. Easy to understand, or does anyone think that e.g. Andorra or Greece should pay more than the UK, or Germany?
This is one of the self-evident aspects of this special union. And it has helped a lot of smaller countries to get their economy going, to the benefit of all.

Must be hard for the UK to realize this 30 odd years later and then complain about it. Well to be true they complained all of the time, but they also contributed, while hints and politics were much more important than money. Sad to see what becomes of this.

Also: Interest Ireland pays to UK banks for the bailout
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-pays-more-than-400m-in-interest-on-uk-bailout-loan-1.3053791

[Skybird]

Thanks Sky, I thought there might be more recent figures out there.

To maintain a sense of clarity below is the link to my source.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/316691/european-union-eu-budget-share-of-contributions/
Actually, there are, but I found at a first glance numbers from 2017 for one country, from 2016 for the other, and then a third set from 2015 and 2010... I did not want to spend too much time with searching, the money paid by a country can change signficantly form one year to the next, so I tried to find numbers quickly and on the fly that are close together in time.



In general I find it absolutely hilarious that a country contributing one fifth of the total EU budget, has the same and not more power and vote sonly like a coun try that contriubutes less than 1% of the EU budget. If the rule should be that the heavy economy hitters should not dominate due to a 20 time shigher payment of theirs, then it has to be imple,ente ddifferently, it then nevertheless needs a relative link between inflouence/power/voting power and the net contriution the country pays in, but there must then be limits of payments being allowed. Which would also signficantly reduce the budget of the EU and keep it on a much shorter line. If then the UK or Germany shall have no more votes and not more say on matters than for exmaple Malta, then Germany and the Uk also should not be allowed to pay much mor emoney in than Malta does. That way, a fairer balance and more equality would be acchieved.

Did I just describe a heresy? I am so sorry.

Also, I do not get it, it sound slike a man-in-thge-middle attack: If a nation pays in lets say 10 bn, and gets back 8 bn, then why does it even make it this complicated? Why is not just 2 bn paid in, and the other 8 bn stay were they come from and return to anyway? The answer is clear: centralism, and parasite wanting to make a perosnal money for nothing form it.

Its all a hoepless intention with this EU project. A free trade zone it shoud be, and not more. Leave all that freaking socialist making-people-equal-ideology and centralist planned economy madness out of it, and we could be done. If you want to clear the water, don't stir it in order to bring your idea of what order is to the grains of sand in it - but leave it alone, leave the glass of water sit still for a while.

But then all the fat cat and the lobbyists and the social carers and the redistributor industry and the morals-for-a-mission ideologists would lose the alibi for their (parasitical) existence, so I fear this will never happen.


Hayek should be mandatory lecture at schools across all EU nations. The man was so very much more than just an "economist".

[Mr Quatro]

If you ask me (and no one did so I volunteer this thought) EU is afraid to let UK go and give them good deal at the same time for fear other countries like Greece or even Portugal might want to follow suit. :yep:

PS Isn't it really just numbers on paper if you never spend it? Example Boeing aircraft just lost 12 billion dollars in stock value from one plane crash yet they have plenty USD left to draw on ... Same with the debt you never pay by just paying the interest ... Lots of fear here in UK and hardly any the USA ... I would have to look it up, but we (the USA) is trillions of dollars in debt. Just numbers on paper ...

[Catfish]

If you ask me (and no one did so I volunteer this thought) EU is afraid to let UK go and give them good deal at the same time for fear other countries like Greece or even Portugal might want to follow suit. :yep: [...]

Well, K. Oktjabr already said it:
" [...] The UK already had favourable membership conditions (exceptions from rules, reduced membership costs, etc.) and that wasn't enough. Then [the UK government] comes into the negotiation table thinking that they could get better terms than the UK had as a member state. Why would the EU and its remaining member states accept that? "

And that is the point. Why?

Regarding the numbers on papers (called 'money') you (Quatro) mentioned - exactly: If you take out a loan, the bank just writes some numbers on a piece of paper. To really earn this stuff it is you that have to actually produce or generate it.
Robbing a train is nothing, against founding a bank :03:

Brexit is a project by the elites, for the elites (https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-elite-boris-johnson-eu-referendum-nigel-farage-hate-crime-a8531241.html)

[JU_88]

And it has helped a lot of smaller countries to get their economy going, to the benefit of all.
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You mean Greece, Italy Spain Portugal etc? the benefit was short lived Catfish.

It helped get their economies going for while, via having them piling up debt, in an artificial bubble that popped in 2009. And now many of them live under the misery of austerity with 20 something percent youth unemployment.
and on top of these issues they are expected to embrace a quota of the uncontrolled migration mostly from sub Saharan Africa.
But those nations have next to no jobs or government welfare, most of the migrants don't even want to settle there, they want to get to Germany or Sweden where they have better prospects.
Austerity, youth unemployment, mass migration and enforced Political correctness is the perfect storm for far right ideology to take hold.

Of course I'm not entirely blaming the EU for this, as its multi faceted, but they are partly responsible, as is the case when anyone gets in to debt troubles, you take in to account the actions of that indervidual (nation), those that lent to them (financial institutions/IMF etc) and those that egged them on because they had something to gain (the Eu).
Poland on other hand, economically grew more within it means (and refused migrants) and the Poles are undeniably doing better, both socially and economically than member states who took the other route.

Those are my two biggest concerns with the EU, creeping authoritarianism (still weakly enforced but its intended none the less)
An institution which seeks to expand without dealing with its financial rot, can only have one eventual outcome - collapse.

Now the UK is going to ask the EU for an extension to Brexit, The EU will choose weather or not grant this based on what they prefer.

a) leave to crash out - in the hope it will be chaotic and make an example to other Euro skeptic member states.

b) £20-13 Billion a year + perk of maintaining some control over UK law and policy.

If I'm right, they will go for option b) because they need money.
If I'm wrong and they are in fact financially sustainable, they will pick option a)

Their response to the extension will speak volumes on their current state. Lets see shall we.

[Skybird]

If you ask me (and no one did so I volunteer this thought) EU is afraid to let UK go and give them good deal at the same time for fear other countries like Greece or even Portugal might want to follow suit. :yep:

PS Isn't it really just numbers on paper if you never spend it? Example Boeing aircraft just lost 12 billion dollars in stock value from one plane crash yet they have plenty USD left to draw on ... Same with the debt you never pay by just paying the interest ... Lots of fear here in UK and hardly any the USA ... I would have to look it up, but we (the USA) is trillions of dollars in debt. Just numbers on paper ...
Why should net receivers (and Euro debtors) wish to leave a most comfortable arrangement that earns them money for free? They get more from the EU than they ned to give back, financially I man,. Wehther the population likes Brussel to stick its nose ever deeper into the private things of people and even startig to raise its own taxes, is somethign different. But mind you. They alk about estalbishing continental unemployemnt and healthcare insurrances. Greece, Portugal would look forward to benefit much from this - at the cost of those nations and their private savers who need to pay the bill. The eU allows regions and nations to live beyond their means. Nations doing so are the last wanting to leave. ;)



The net payers going off the flag - that is what the EU must fear. The loss of centralist control when the collective splinters.



Another threat is that net debtors in the Euro scheme leave the currency. There creditors will not see their credits ever again anyway, but if their debtors leave, the creditors cannot hide this fact from their voters at home anymore.

[Skybird]

The EU is a project by progressives, intellectuals and central-planning elites, for progressives, intellectuals and central planning elites.


Corrected that for you.

[Catfish]

So you want to compare Greece and Poland?
Poland did economically better because of keeping out migrants? :doh:
I'd say this is a basic attitude of the country's citizens and especially those rich who do not pay taxes in Greece.

Also: First, Polands PIS party is not so old that this achievement can be put on their positive list of achievements, can it?
Second Poland did so well because of being a EU member. But i'd give you that, being in the EU or out Poland would still fare better than Greece, guaranteed.

Did i say only poor countries benefit from being in the EU? How about the UK? England? Ireland? How was Manchester built up? Of course smaller countries, too, like Malta (also UK i know), or Slovenia or Estonia, or Latvia. Greece and Italy are special, because of the rich paying almost no taxes there, while their tax-evading mostly benefits the London banks :haha:

As i just read the average person in England has lost 900 pounds during the last year. So the pound is still strong compared to the Dollar? But the dollar has fallen as well. Growth in the EU and the Eurozone is higher in the previous 12 months than the UK, and it is projected to stay that way.
I see the UK government is so brilliant with its strategies and foresight, so as you said i will just lean back, get my popcorn and observe how the UK continues to become the world's Nr. 1 economy after brexit.
[...] Now the UK is going to ask the EU for an extension to Brexit, The EU will choose weather or not grant this based on what they prefer.[...]. Oh, the EU will grant the UK an extension until short before the EU elections this year, but this will be it. That is, if the EU is not infected by the UK brexit chaos, and still has a brain to think with.

[JU_88]

The net payers going off the flag - that is what the EU must fear. The loss of centralist control when the collective splinters.


Another threat is that net debtors in the Euro scheme leave the currency. There creditors will not see their credits ever again anyway, but if their debtors leave, the creditors cannot hide this fact from their voters at home anymore.

Yep, funny isn't it, when a person or company survives on maxed out credit cards and just pay's off the interest each month, is frowned upon and seen as irresponsible, (which it is)
But for most government & institutions in the world, its the standard practice - so long as things look good on the surface (right now), that's all that matters. Screw the future, someone else will have to deal with it.
Frightening really.

[JU_88]

So you want to compare Greece and Poland?
Poland did economically better because of keeping out migrants? .

No I thought i made that clear. Not so much economically (other than trying to get them fed and housed in the short term).
But more socially, are you going to pretend there has been no social problems in the nations bearing the brunt of the migrant crisis over the past 4 years? I hope not.
Economically Poles remained more cautious when it came to borrowing. I don't know about the PIS party, but i don't see who its relevant as I'm talking about How Poland acted over the past 2 decades.
The Eus open arms towards migrants and refugees, was more than likely an investment in man power & cheap labour force (based on declining western birth rates) dressed up in alot of heroic self inflated progressive fluff. Nothing more. Turned out to be more complicated and messy than they anticipated.
Migrants drowning in Med/ Dissapearing off the radar/ committing disproportional crime / not particularly wanting to work in car factories. (cant blame them on that last one)
And then far right crazies coming out of the cracks to exploit the situation, rile up support and threaten to toppling centrist establishments.


Many were not paying taxes in Greece, not just rich, evasion was easy and went largely unpunished. plus it goes way deep in to Greek Culture. The Eu knew this when Greece signed up, seems they didn't care.
Now Greek tax has risen with austerity, so people avoid paying them them more, and keep their money out of banks in case the government seizes their personal savings (the Eu was just fine with this Policy by the way, not an infringement of article 1, imagine that!) We are talking about regular working class people by the way, not millionaires.
One Greek guy I had a drink with last year to said the taxes were just half the problem, the other half being that 'it turns out to not be not very sustainable to import cars and computers, while exporting olive oil and feta cheese'.


Italian government has been a hot bed of corruption for a very long time now. so its no surprised they bit off more than they could chew and got greedy.

But then I already explained that the Eu is only proportionally to blame for Italy and Greeces mess, they heavily encouraged/ contributed towards them making it - but were not pressing the buttons. And also they showed ZERO sympathy for those who suffered when gravy train ended.

I will also point out the rich also pay virtually no taxes in Switzerland. And no real problems there.

Did i say only poor countries benefit from being in the EU? How about the UK? England? Ireland? How was Manchester built up? .

Do you think that's actually been paid for yet? governments and large institutions don't need to pay for things like that BEFORE or AS they are carried out, they can fiddle it to pay years or decades later, the way our wonderful system works. And of course governments don't make any actual money of there own, they collect from the population, (and they borrow). So our kids / Germany's Kids will likely still end up paying for that one in the end.
I somehow doubt the EU just said 'here England, you've been a good boy so have some no strings attached cash you can use to regenerate Manchester'.
No.
What countries get back from the Eu is often roughly proportional to what they put in. So in the end it makes no real difference. Nobody hands money over to the EU for free, and nobody receives money from the Eu for free. There is no 'free money'. - but there is cheap money. (ie, lower interest rates on debt)
And what the Eu mostly offered to poorer nations, was access to the single market and access to CHEAP BORROWING which they could not afford to ever repay.
The EU helped to sell them a 10 year binge with a 30+ year hangover.

As i just read the average person in England has lost 900 pounds during the last year. So the pound is still strong compared to the Dollar? But the dollar has fallen as well. Growth in the EU and the Eurozone is higher in the previous 12 months than the UK, and it is projected to stay that way.
I see the UK government is so brilliant with its strategies and foresight, so as you said i will just lean back, get my popcorn and observe how the UK continues to become the world's Nr. 1 economy after brexit.

no the UK wont be No1 after Brexit obviously - it will tank int he short term on a No deal - no doubt about it.

As it for the markets indicating/forecasting how strong or weak a nation or blocks economy is doing, remember the market only operates on short term perceptions, they don't address underlying problems (like rotting foundations) anymore than our politicians do. if they did - the U.S.A would have junk status today with its 20+ trillion debt (with everyone else not far behind).

[Jimbuna]

Now the UK is going to ask the EU for an extension to Brexit, The EU will choose weather or not grant this based on what they prefer.

a) leave to crash out - in the hope it will be chaotic and make an example to other Euro skeptic member states.

b) £20-13 Billion a year + perk of maintaining some control over UK law and policy.

If I'm right, they will go for option b) because they need money.
If I'm wrong and they are in fact financially sustainable, they will pick option a)

Their response to the extension will speak volumes on their current state. Lets see shall we.

I'm guessing they'll go for a) as well but b) might just be the push that Parliament needs.