UK Politics Thread [Archive] - Page 37 - SUBSIM Radio Room Forums

Jimbuna

01-23-19, 09:13 AM

So who does Mr Schinas represent then?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-46961982

He represents reason. He does not say that the EU will build a "hard border", he points out that if there is no deal, England will most probably end up with exactly that.
And b.t.w. all parties have signed the "backstop" agreement to guarantee Ireland's open borders.
Does not anyone think by now it would be better to settle the legal status of a neighbouring Ireland once and for all. Can it be at least economically independent as part of the UK, or not. If that is the problem :hmmm:

Looks like 'reason' is beginning to wear a little thin...

The EU believes a hard border on the island of Ireland is an "obvious" result of a "no-deal" Brexit - as signs of a split with Dublin emerged over the issue.

Brussels, Dublin and London have all stated they do no want a hard border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland after Brexit.

But the EU has given apparent confirmation they would enforce such a scenario should the UK leave the bloc without a withdrawal agreement, known as a no-deal outcome.https://news.sky.com/story/eu-says-hard-irish-border-obvious-under-no-deal-brexit-as-split-emerges-with-dublin-11614837

Only confirmation awaited now is who would do the enforcing....no doubt the Irish would be the reluctant choice.

Catfish

01-23-19, 10:06 AM

"Both the EU and UK could face sanctions under the World Trade Organisation rulebook if they fail to enforce the border. Under the agreement, countries cannot treat another country more favourably than any other country without a formalised trade agreement."

So all don't want it but it's international law, when there's no deal? :hmmm:

Jimbuna

01-23-19, 10:09 AM

^ Quite worrying though if you factor in the possibility of 'the troubles' coming back to the fore :hmmm:

Bleiente

01-23-19, 01:34 PM

Interesting what British people have to say about Brexit, who live and work in Germany or even in Europe. :03:

Translater:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fpolitik%2Fdeutschl and%2Fbrexit-bedeutet-fuer-briten-in-deutschland-groesstmoegliche-unsicherheit-a-1248386.html

Original:
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/brexit-bedeutet-fuer-briten-in-deutschland-groesstmoegliche-unsicherheit-a-1248386.html

:Kaleun_Salute:

CDR DPH

01-23-19, 02:11 PM

By in large, I am not too interested in the opinions of British expats as their comments tend to be about their personal situation on how Brexit will affect them. Very few Britons residing elsewhere in Europe or other European citizens residing in Britain seem able to transcend their personal situations and preferences and speak to what would be best for Britain as a country.

This particular British expat has lived abroad for longer than 5 years, has no intention of returning to Britain anytime soon and has applied for German citizenship. Clearly his personal motivations and interests lie outside the sphere of the pros/cons of the Brexit discussion; Thus all of his printed comments are irrelevant to the national discussion of what is best for the country as a whole.

Bleiente

01-23-19, 02:32 PM

... to the national discussion of what is best for the country as a whole.
Well then clear up, because so far I understand this opportunistic (similar to a whore) behavior by no means.
Fifty years ago, GB was literally begging for admission to the EEC, because its empire is literally broken apart ... it is no more. So continue in the text. :03:

:haha:

CDR DPH

01-23-19, 03:23 PM

The premise being similar to an apples vs oranges discussion.

The preservation of the sovereignty of Britain is for British people to decide.

Fact #1:

The British parliament seems to have already made up their minds and are attempting to do everything possible to change the outcome of the referendum and pursue a completely different objective.

Fact #2:

The potential for the sudden loss/change of the personal advantages enjoyed by British expats living in Europe under the current arrangements clouds that discussion. Expats can no more separate their personal biases than can the chocoholic that works in a candy store. Inevitably those in this situation do not wish their current circumstances to change regardless of the perceived benefits to Britain.

Fact 3:

This is not a historical discussion. It is very much a discussion dealing with how Britain will conduct its affairs going forward. The conditions and circumstances 50 years ago are irrelevant today. This is very much a backlash against the EU's run away politicization of everything it touches. Countries that do not mind giving up some sovereignty to achieve a communal benefit are free to hitch their wagons to the EU. Those countries who wish to retain some say as to their own immigration, trade, foreign relations policies have no choice but to leave the union or not join in the first place. No other mechanism seems to exist within the current framework.

The EU has come a long way from it's stated purpose all those years ago of being an economic union of countries that share similar interests and objectives. Overtime, the EU has changed its purpose and mandate to something other than what some countries initially agreed to when they applied for membership.

In recognition of these changes, if the EU now refuses to allow countries to effectively withdraw, it is no longer the European Union but now the European Gulag.

In the beginning, Britain wanted better and more efficient and cost effective access to other European countries and trading deals that could better be negotiated by a larger block of countries. It is my understanding that at no time did the common British citizen ever agree to accept immigration guidelines, wealth redistribution, natural resource management or a central currency controlled from outside the UK.

Trade does not equal the abandonment of sovereignty and self determination. The EU has not asked its member countries to solicit such a mandate from their respective populations, so the EU has no basis upon which to impose terms beyond those that existed at the time a country joined the Union or those which a country has subsequently agreed to take on.

One could make the same argument about any EU member country. Those populations to the best of my knowledge have not given their respective governments a mandate to negotiate or change the deal in any way that relinquishes local control over those aspects of the individual countries sovereignty or right to choose their own futures.

The EU was not founded on this sort of a premise, nothing has been put to the people that gives the EU such power or authority and since no one ever considered that a member country might wish to leave, the exit process is a bit of a mess as is usually the case in any first go situation.

This is an issue whereby the The British people and their overly irreverent politicians need to decide once and for all. Either all in to the EU as it exists today and may exist tomorrow or get out now and retain the very control that the EU wishes to exercise itself.

All in or all out. Who gets to decide? Well it should be the British people, lots of whom appear to have been asleep during the referendum if their claims are to be believed. This is certainly not an issue for the politicians to decide as their interests couldn't be further from those of the fisherman, farmer, shop keeper or stay-at-home mom. Even the interests of the multinational corporations are skewed away from any given population towards their own profit generating potential - corporations are not people, they have no social responsibility or accountability beyond generating more and more revenue for shareholders by any means available. Corporate interests almost never align with those of any given population.

Catfish

01-23-19, 04:16 PM

I wanted to write a long answer, but i plain decided to get out of here.
I have no idea what you or "England" really want and why, really.

STEED

01-23-19, 05:37 PM

I wanted to write a long answer, but i plain decided to get out of here.
I have no idea what you or "England" really want and why, really.

Free toilet paper and the right to hug a German. :03:

STEED

01-23-19, 05:51 PM

Tory MP David Davis will earn £60,000 for 20 hours of work as an adviser to manufacturing company JCB.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46981440

Money for old rope, clearly I'm in the wrong job.

Deepseadiver

01-23-19, 06:19 PM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46981440

Money for old rope, clearly I'm in the wrong job.

what a cnut

ikalugin

01-23-19, 10:38 PM

I may be overly cynical, but is UK capable of enforcing it's own full soverenity?

Catfish

01-24-19, 03:27 AM

Free toilet paper and the right to hug a German. :03:

^:haha:

The second wish may be ok - after you used that paper :O:

I do not know what I want, and I want it now !!

https://i.imgur.com/umEzEnH.jpg

Skybird

01-24-19, 05:25 AM

Well then clear up, because so far I understand this opportunistic (similar to a whore) behavior by no means.
Fifty years ago, GB was literally begging for admission to the EEC, because its empire is literally broken apart ... it is no more. So continue in the text. :03:
:haha:
Actually the UK founded EFTA as an opposing part to the EEC and a challenge to it, together with several other European countries that opposed the EEC of that time. Also, the majprity of the EEC countries of that time originally did not want the British in it, Frane and de Gaulle vetoed twice against Britain when EFTA was not the hoped-for success and the british ECONOMY (not the people) feared to lose in competition with the bloc.

And already three or four years after the Brits finally had joined (after deGaule withdrawel), the had their first referendum on whether or not staying in the EEC.

Since then, time and again the UK showed policies and hesitations that illustrate clearly that it never was really at comfort wit the EEC/EU. It demanded a Brit rabate. It demanded opt-out clauses for Shengen. It stayed out of the Euro. And in this all, they were not alone, few other countries also voted against the enforced EEC/EU unification repeatedly.

We are not all a happy one family, you know. For the brtis and their traditonal civil understanding of liberty and freedom (not necessarily manign their porked political establishment), the continetal union never was their natural habitat. The traditions and understandings on what freedom and liberty is, are very different. Historical reasons, and a different mentality I assume.

I had posted the bot-translation link of this in the germany thread already, her eis the German text again, for you.
https://www.achgut.com/artikel/margaret_thachers_vorahnung_fuer_deutschland

Nicht nur der Fall Relotius hat gezeigt, dass die Deutschen wieder dabei sind, Wahrheit, Prinzipien und Freiheit einem höheren Ziel unterzuordnen – und alle marschieren mit.

Jimbuna

01-24-19, 05:52 AM

Former Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond arrestedhttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-46984747

He got off recently over flawed internal procedural technicalities but it would appear that criminal law is not similarly hampered.

Innocent until proven guilty of course.

Jimbuna

01-24-19, 07:29 AM

Heaven help us :nope:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Syo86gsHk

Jimbuna

01-24-19, 10:46 AM

He got off recently over flawed internal procedural technicalities but it would appear that criminal law is not similarly hampered.

Innocent until proven guilty of course.

He finds himself accused of two charges of attempted rape, nine of sexual assault, two of indecent assault and one breach of the peace.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-46984747

MGR1

01-24-19, 11:19 AM

Whoopsy daisy! Quite ironic considering how critical he was of President Trumps alleged misconduct.

It will be very interesting to see how the SNP and, particularly, it's membership will react in the long term.:hmmm:

Mike.

Jimbuna

01-25-19, 07:12 AM

It was reported on lunchtime news that some EU countries have suggested a more lenient approach to the UK but the EU Commission have flatly rejected the idea.

STEED

01-26-19, 06:16 AM

It's looking like May's Plan will be voted down on Tuesday and it could be a closer vote.

Jimbuna

01-26-19, 06:37 AM

Justice Secretary David Gauke has become the second cabinet minister to suggest Parliament could be given free votes on some Brexit issues.

He told the BBC MPs should be able to vote according to their personal views when the Brexit motion is debated on Tuesday, "to resolve things".https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47012523

One small step in the right direction.

STEED

01-27-19, 06:32 AM

MPs may need to work longer and lose their February half-term break if Brexit is to be delivered on time.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47018418

Oh dear me that's borderline slavery almost, quick lets have a whip round to give them some hardship cash. :roll:

STEED

01-27-19, 07:16 AM

I just finished watching Question Time with Jim's pet laugh Diane Abbott who clearly was out to lunch and her complaints against Fiona Bruce and Question Time holds no water and the BBC rejected her claims.

BBC Question Time 17/01/2019 DERBY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3myU62DKowg

Jimbuna

01-27-19, 07:28 AM

Troops could return to the border in the event of a botched Brexit, the Irish prime minister has warned.

Taoiseach Leo Varadkar said a hard border could "involve people in uniform... possibly a police presence, or an army presence to back it up".

An Irish government spokesperson later said Mr Varadkar was not referring to putting Irish troops at the border, insisting there are no plans to do so.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46998533

So what precisely are you saying Taoiseach? :hmmm:

Jimbuna

01-27-19, 07:33 AM

Jim's pet laugh Diane Abbott

https://i.imgur.com/NwUdAS1.jpg

Jimbuna

01-28-19, 09:09 AM

And so to the next disaster warning by the doom and gloom brigade.

A no-deal Brexit threatens the UK's food security and will lead to higher prices and empty shelves in the short-term, retailers are warning.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47028748

Catfish

01-28-19, 10:07 AM

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-food/uk-grocers-fast-food-warn-of-major-disruption-from-no-deal-brexit-idUSKCN1PM19X
Who eats at KFC or McDonalds anyaway.. is that the D&G brigade that learned of Skybird? :D

Why i don't understand England.. brexiteers warn of brexit? Or of May's brexit?
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-security-risks-theresa-may-deal-terrorism-european-union-us-five-eyes-a8659276.html

Jimbuna

01-28-19, 12:23 PM

^ As the article quite rightly states "National security is a matter of the gravest importance and should not become a political football when it comes to Brexit"

STEED

01-28-19, 05:36 PM

I hear from the radio the army is going to stock pile live ammunition in case of a no deal brexit as mass rioting is expected when the price of goods rocket in price. Now I did hear the army bit on another radio station a few weeks ago but not the new bit.

STEED

01-28-19, 05:42 PM

Green MSP Ross Greer has repeated his controversial claim that Sir Winston Churchill was a "white supremacist" and a "mass murderer."https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-47028246

What a trumped up little fart this pillock is.

Catfish

01-29-19, 04:31 AM

Of course it is so politically incorrect to call a spade a spade. But as you should know Mr Greer is not entirely wrong. England was never in need to look critically at its own past.
It seems England does not only love its wars, but also tends to forget about its own history. From colonial rule, to drug wars, slavery and how they treat(ed) Ireland. Some of the worst is still being locked away, to not arouse public indignation. You know this could lead to raised eyebrows. :D

Jimbuna

01-29-19, 06:05 AM

https://i.imgur.com/CVFxWYy.jpg

STEED

01-29-19, 06:49 AM

Well here we go again Brexit amendments part two, big bad John will make his selections around 1:45pm today and the debates start. Or should I say the screaming and shouting before they go off to vote.

The backstop one will be interesting as the EU and the Irish government has rejected May's rewording and trimmings around the edges. Word has it now she may win this one but it will be very close.

Jimbuna

01-29-19, 06:57 AM

I'm predicting another defeat.

ikalugin

01-29-19, 07:13 AM

https://i.imgur.com/CVFxWYy.jpg
We had a simmilar vote, the concern was that if the Government had the power to remove citizenship then this power could be abused.

Jimbuna

01-29-19, 07:47 AM

We had a simmilar vote, the concern was that if the Government had the power to remove citizenship then this power could be abused.

I can't say I'm surprised.

Jimbuna

01-29-19, 08:16 AM

Theresa May has said she will talk to the EU later about reopening the withdrawal agreement.

The EU has ruled out making changes to the legal text agreed with the UK prime minister.

But Mrs May has told her cabinet she will seek to do that, as MPs debate her plan ahead of a series of votes.

Conservative rebels who voted down her deal earlier this month are demanding legally binding changes to the controversial Irish backstop clause.

Some Tory Brexiteers have signalled they will now back Mrs May, despite previously threatening to rebel.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47037365

About bloody time....perhaps we can make some progress now because if the EU refuse I can only see that strengthening a vote for a no deal Brexit.

https://i.imgur.com/ijRhtbH.jpg

Jimbuna

01-29-19, 11:19 AM

An MP has become the first sitting politician in nearly three decades to be jailed after she lied to police when she was issued with a speeding ticket.

Solicitor Fiona Onasanya had denied being behind the wheel when her car was spotted being driven at 41mph in a 30mph zone, in July 2017.

The Peterborough MP was thrown out of the Labour Party after being convicted of perverting the course of justice.

She has been jailed for three months after a re-trial at the Old Bailey.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-47040912

One down, only 649 more to go :salute:

STEED

01-29-19, 05:40 PM

One down, only 649 more to go :salute:That is so funny Jim....:har: Oh wait you are being serious. :o

So MayBot has won five of the votes and the one she lost holds no water and no soon she cracks out the booze the Irish PM and the EU have stated the backstop is not up for new talks and can not be changed. Booze on hold, oh look Mad Dog Jezzer will now talk with MayBot well I never and here comes the snow.

Jimbuna

01-30-19, 06:29 AM

A good night for the PM and common sense. Now we see some hope of an eventual deal because that is surely the best outcome.

I've started following Lord Digby Jones because IMHO he is one of the few who seem level headed and knowledgeable enough.

https://twitter.com/Digbylj?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ct wgr%5Eauthor

I also noticed Corbyn has eventually agreed to discuss the issue with the PM putting far too much emphasis on the one vote the government lost and is actually non enforceable :doh:

STEED

01-30-19, 08:03 AM

MayBot has only kicked the can down the road for two weeks.

Jimbuna

01-30-19, 08:21 AM

I'm with Lord Digby Jones on this, a gace saving compromise will probably be conjured up at the last minute.

The biggest stumbling block will be getting it through Parliament.

Jimbuna

01-30-19, 11:00 AM

Juncker tells MEPs: "Yesterday's vote has further increased the risk of a disorderly exit of the UK."

Juncker continues: "It's important the EU remains calm, united and determined, as it has done throughout this process."

https://news.sky.com/story/live-theresa-may-and-jeremy-corbyn-to-clash-at-pmqs-before-brexit-talks-11622177

STEED

01-30-19, 11:58 AM

Let's be honest here DC gave us the referendum and by a narrow margin the UK voted to leave, it was us who rocked the boat so why should the EU compromise with the UK. The government should had taken that into account but they did not, they believed we could get our cake and eat it.

The whole thing was a mess right from the start and the voter will not stand up to this shower at Westminster so we have to swallow the bitter pill. Even if there are riots after a no deal Brexit the end result it will not affect the elite behind there high walls.

I think we would have been better off planning the safe guarding of the UK when the mighty EU falls and be ready for that day.

Jimbuna

01-31-19, 07:34 AM

Jimbuna

01-31-19, 09:08 AM

An MP's jail term for lying to police over a speeding ticket is being reviewed after a complaint it was unduly lenient.

Peterborough MP Fiona Onasanya had denied being behind the wheel when her car was spotted being driven at 41mph in a 30mph zone, in July 2017.

She was convicted at the Old Bailey of perverting the course of justice and jailed for three months on Tuesday.

The Attorney General's Office confirmed it was reviewing the case.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-47071120

I'm wondering if she will stand down or continue drawing her salary :hmmm:

The latter I suspect.

Jimbuna

01-31-19, 09:28 AM

STEED

01-31-19, 02:06 PM

O ye, of little faith....there will probably be a last minute deal of some sorts but if that fails remember you were the one who highligted the fact the British Army was stocking up on live ammunition :hmmm:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2588863&postcount=9031

OK lets get down and dirty and say there is no deal Brexit it could be possible the extreme left and right wing could go off like fire crackers but I really can not see live ammo being used. I can not see the UK going up in smoke but the division between remain and leave will be like walking on thin ice. I would not put it pass the EU to take the hit and hold its ground.

I'm wondering if she will stand down or continue drawing her salary :hmmm:

The latter I suspect.

She has been booted out of Labour and remains as a independent MP, the rules are clear and she is in her rights. About time the rules were changed in my view.

STEED

01-31-19, 02:49 PM

MPs' half-term break cancelled over fears about Brexithttps://news.sky.com/story/mps-half-term-break-cancelled-amid-brexit-preparedness-fears-11623352

So now they think oh we need to get on with it. Talk about late in the day with this lot of wet paper bags they are.

STEED

02-01-19, 05:39 AM

Brexit vote: Is cash for constituencies wrong?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47080553
Jeremy Corbyn warns his MPs not to back Brexit deal in exchange for constituency cash https://news.sky.com/story/jeremy-corbyn-warns-his-mps-not-to-back-brexit-deal-in-exchange-for-constituency-cash-11623669

Roll up MayBot wants you're vote...Coruption at Westminster as MP's hit the toillet's for the funny white powder.

Brexit: Unilever stockpiles Ben & Jerry's and Magnum ice creamshttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47071874

That will make Jim happy but what about pot noodle?

SKYNEWS - German Minister states the EU has no solutions to the "Backstop" issue.

Jimbuna

02-01-19, 06:01 AM

Jimbuna

02-01-19, 06:03 AM

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn was forced to take a car to a talk about bus service cuts after the bus he was waiting for failed to show up.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-47076653 :o

:har:

Catfish

02-01-19, 06:14 AM

^ i guess it was not Corbyn being responsible for bus cuts, but the ruling government? A conspiracy to let him stand in the rain.. :hmmm::O:

He sure promises to better things, if he's only being elected..

Jimbuna

02-01-19, 06:30 AM

^ He sure does but his plans would lead to higher taxation and government borrowing.

STEED

02-01-19, 03:34 PM

I read a snippet online about Germany telling the EU to drop the "Backstop" issue from The Telegraph. Can Sky and Cat throw anymore light on this.

Mr Quatro

02-01-19, 06:03 PM

OK lets get down and dirty and say there is no deal Brexit it could be possible the extreme left and right wing could go off like fire crackers but I really can not see live ammo being used. I can not see the UK going up in smoke but the division between remain and leave will be like walking on thin ice. I would not put it pass the EU to take the hit and hold its ground.

I've been trying to understand this Brexit deal gone bad and my first thoughts are that the fear sounds a lot like the y2k problem back in the year 2000. I know it's not the same, but just seems like it. Lots of fear about what big business will do and now small business are starting to worry.

Is there any chance that the people's will in the vote to exit EU will be overturned?

Surely they won't take a chance to hold another vote :o

Jimbuna

02-02-19, 06:47 AM

I've been trying to understand this Brexit deal gone bad and my first thoughts are that the fear sounds a lot like the y2k problem back in the year 2000. I know it's not the same, but just seems like it. Lots of fear about what big business will do and now small business are starting to worry.

Is there any chance that the people's will in the vote to exit EU will be overturned?

Surely they won't take a chance to hold another vote :o

Yeah I was involved in that y2k silliness but as to your question....I think anything is possible really.

Jimbuna

02-02-19, 06:48 AM

An example of things to come perhaps?

The UK has objected to Gibraltar being described as a "colony" in European Union legislation allowing UK nationals to travel to the EU after Brexit.

The EU proposed allowing visa-free travel for Britons in November.

The Spanish government has since insisted a footnote be added describing Gibraltar as a "colony" and referring to "controversy" over its status.

The UK's ambassador to the EU, Sir Tim Barrow, objected to it at a meeting in Brussels earlier.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47087439

Skybird

02-02-19, 06:58 AM

I read a snippet online about Germany telling the EU to drop the "Backstop" issue from The Telegraph. Can Sky and Cat throw anymore light on this.
I heard nothing, but I am not the media mastermonitor of the continent. But my money is on "unfounded rumour", last time the German government said something on it that was confirmed they recommended to remain hard, German industry leaders also want the EU to stay hard (to mount pressure to force Britain to stay in the EU). Confirmed seems to be that Spain drums the drums again over Gibraltar, however.

What is confirmed is that the EU member states now said they want to allow British citizens travel access into the EU without Visa, even if there is no deal. However, the EU cannot save itself from putting in another provocation: it formally discriminates between British citizens from the UK, and from the "British colony" Gibraltar.

Skybird

02-02-19, 07:37 AM

Ha, now I found something. The German HuffPost wrote about a group of German economists and advisors that the EU should create a new customs union called European Customs Association wehre all would be members, inclduing the UK, and the UK remaining to vote in economic decisions affecting all Europe. The experts said that the Backstop positions of all sides are unnegotiable for the EU, for the UK and for the republic of Ireland, and thus it must be taken out of the equation by this bypasing attempt.

The logic of why to do so, is fine, the Backstop thing gives the eU a total and potentially unlimited negotiation superiority over the UK in the future, this is unacceptable for the UK. A hard border is unacceptable for Ireland. and the EU does not want to give up its super trump card for the future that May was so stupid to prematurely agree to.

From the bots:

The backstop in the Withdrawal Agreement provides: If, after leaving the EU on 29 March and the transitional period to 31 December 2020, the UK has not entered into a trade agreement with the EU that would make a fixed Irish border redundant, ...

► ... Britain in a customs union with the EU ...

► ... and Northern Ireland also part of the internal market.

For the British, this is unacceptable because in this case there would probably be a border in the Irish Sea between Northern Ireland and the rest of Britain. British MPs fear interference in the sovereignty of their country.

In addition, the authors write, the backstop of the EU has the advantage of negotiating future relations with the British. "In extreme cases, the EU could delay negotiations until the transitional period expires and the backstop comes into force," the authors of the paper point out the fears of the British government.

A limitation of the backstop is also for them no solution, because in this case, the advantage would go to Great Britain. "In extreme cases, a time limit could encourage the UK government to delay negotiations until the backstop has expired," the paper said. The British could then negotiate more concessions in a free trade agreement yet to be concluded.

It is therefore hard for the experts: The backstop is unstoppable.

Therefore, they make a controversial proposal.
How the experts want to dissolve the Brexit chaos:

The "politically feasible" proposal of the experts is: They want to create a new European Customs Union (called in the paper "European Customs Association (ECA)"). Then a fixed Irish border would be obsolete.

In this new customs union, Britain and the EU would have to agree on a common trade policy. Unlike in the backstop model, London should also get a vote on the proposal of the experts.

Then, for example, the British government would be involved in negotiations on trade agreements between the EU and third countries.

Especially Brexit hardliners had promised in the UK that the country can once again conclude trade agreements and lead its own trade policy after the EU's exit. After all, with the suggestion of the experts, Britain does not lose the say, as the backstop currently provides.

https://www.huffingtonpost.de/entry/deutsche-experten-machen-brisanten-losungsvorschlag-fur-brexit-chaos_de_5c54497fe4b01d3c1f12cb86?utm_hp_ref=de-homepage

Note this is not the position of the German government, but private talking. Also note the eU must hate this proposal, since the eU declares social issues and economic freedoms to be a monolithic unity that shall not be broken up. And finally it is a proposal closer to the psotiions of Labour than the Tories, so the May camp must hate it while Corbynistas maybe want to celebrate, I don't knwo.

My optimism doesnot start to grow, therefore.

Jimbuna

02-02-19, 09:02 AM

^ It's looking more and more that the UK will remain in the EU......unless Parliament can unite themselves.

STEED

02-02-19, 12:37 PM

Parliament can unite themselves.

Nice one Jim, another corker. :har: :har: :har: :har: :up:

Get a beer out the fringe you are a star. :DL

Catfish

02-02-19, 01:13 PM

Sorry, did not hear of anything either.
If anything they said that there is no further concession possible without creating unfair trade relations and ridiculing the idea of the EU.

STEED

02-03-19, 06:38 AM

Project fear reaches a all time new high, listening to the radio last night plans have been made to get the royal family out of the UK if the UK crashes out with no deal.

Sounds like some one called the....A-Team.

Jimbuna

02-03-19, 07:53 AM

Nissan has confirmed that the new X-Trail originally planned for its Sunderland plant will instead be made in Japan.

In a letter to workers, it says continued Brexit uncertainty is not helping firms to "plan for the future".https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47107561

Brexit uncertainty is only a minor factor, the bigger one is the pending demise of diesel autos.

STEED

02-04-19, 07:07 AM

Brexit uncertainty is only a minor factor, the bigger one is the pending demise of diesel autos.

It seems over the weekend this was more of a scare story now it comes to light this is about and I quote what I heard on Sky News "Future Jobs" not yet created. And with tough diesel emission laws in the UK and probably getting tougher no wonder its all going Japan.

Moving on...

I don't believe the media story about a possible general election in June.

Jimbuna

02-04-19, 07:59 AM

Correctamundo, a previously little known fact or one that wasn't previously made public....the new diesel emissions requirements were never going to be met.

Jimbuna

02-04-19, 12:15 PM

Three days of talks have commenced.

MPs are meeting with the government to discuss alternative arrangements to the proposed Irish border "backstop", as three days of talks begin.

The Alternative Arrangements Working Group, with Leave and Remain MPs, met for the first time after the Commons voted to find another way of avoiding the return of Irish border checks.

Home Secretary Sajid Javid has said "existing technology" could be used.

But EU leaders have continued to rule out making changes to the backstop.

The Irish PM Leo Varadkar told RTE radio the UK was reviewing ideas that had "already been rejected", and it was "very frustrating" that the UK government was "going back to the idea of technology".https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47110641

STEED

02-04-19, 05:40 PM

Mean while back in the Labour party....

Labour MPs urge more action against anti-semitism

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47123328

Skybird

02-04-19, 07:13 PM

Mean while back in the Labour party....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47123328
Thats almost as funny as the German government recently repeatingg once again they are with Israel and Auschwitz shall never happen again while heavily lobbying for Iran and trying desperately to do business with them and buy them the time needed to to get the means necessary to turn their threats true that they want to annihilate Israel once and forever. :yeah:Shall nobody say the Germans have no sense of humour.

A world of non-anti-semitic comedians!

Skybird

02-04-19, 07:28 PM

and it was nice to hear how the tone in Brussel turns rough and Ireland was openly threatened to to be exlcuded form the common market by enforcing a tax regime on it if they would not do heavy action on realising a solid border with Northern Ireland in an attempt to prevent new terror and civil war.

It is obvious by that that foer the EU leaving a state of its empire shift into war and terror is preferrable to the outlook of not punishing the stubborn Brits as heavily as possible and bitterly defending their grap on the Backstop deal they managed to get agreed to by stupid May.

The damn EU should be a free trade zone only, and all demands and calls beyond that and all imperial effort to enforce foreign policies and social experiments and cultural reeducation and enforced migration and centralisng control of a de facto planned economy onto all members should be send to hell better yesterday than today.

Free trade zone. This the EU should have been today - and not one bit more.

To leave the Irish question to the end, was stupid by all involved sides, and naive. To agree to the Backstop solution was stupid by May. What Corbyn has to babble, is always adding new depth to the meaning of the word "stupid".

Catfish

02-05-19, 03:36 AM

Catfish

02-05-19, 04:19 AM

Barnier says backstop is 'only operational solution' to Irish border issue (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/feb/04/brexit-latest-news-developments-pm-asks-mps-to-find-alternative-arrangements-to-backstop-as-eu-insists-those-ideas-wont-work-politics-live?page=with:block-5c583607e4b0c3e1fbdbdd38)
so what does that really mean?

Brexit: Does the Irish peace accord rule out a hard border? (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-46988529)
:hmmm:

Jimbuna

02-05-19, 09:16 AM

Theresa May will try to reassure people in Northern Ireland that she can secure a Brexit deal that avoids a hard border with Ireland during a visit later.

In a speech to business leaders, the prime minister will pledge to secure a deal with the EU that "commands broad support" and a majority in parliament.

The DUP leader, Arlene Foster, said the "toxic backstop" remained the problem.

Brussels was "unfortunately turning their face against that" and needed respect for unionism in NI, she added.

Mrs Foster spoke out as the European Commission confirmed the prime minister will visit Brussels on Thursday for talks with its president Jean-Claude Juncker.

This follows a visit by Taoiseach (Irish Prime Minister) Leo Varadkar on Wednesday.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47123078

Good luck with that.

Catfish

02-05-19, 10:16 AM

So brexiter Dyson moves to Singapore, claiming brexit will be a disaster for.. Europe, and the latter will be on its knees to beg England. :hmmm:

Well we will see, but:

" ... last October, Singapore signed a trade agreement with the EU, which eliminates virtually all tariffs in the mutual exchange of goods."

"Since 2003, however, [Dyson] production in the UK has stopped. Hair dryers, vacuum cleaners and fans have since been manufactured in Malaysia, the Philippines and Singapore."

From 'Die Welt' (Google translate)
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.welt.de%2Fwirtschaft%2Farticle 187560170%2FBrexit-Staubsauger-Pionier-James-Dyson-verlagert-Zentrale-nach-Singapur.html

All sides would be better off doing something productive, instead of bigmouthing.

Jimbuna

02-05-19, 10:28 AM

All sides would be better off doing something productive, instead of bigmouthing.

Agreed but can someone tell this to her :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXwwtaAd0f8

Jimbuna

02-05-19, 10:37 AM

Her leader and former lover is hardly any better...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8w9xqjGM-U

Skybird

02-05-19, 12:12 PM

OMFG do you have any evidence or at least a link to back up your defamatory statements?

Equal rights in Northern Ireland are threatend by brexit, not by the EU (https://www.politico.eu/article/equal-rights-in-northern-ireland-threatened-by-brexit/)
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00339-y
https://www.ft.com/content/1a7af4ec-23a8-11e9-b329-c7e6ceb5ffdf

A threat by whom? Isn't it so that some Tories threatened Ireland with a food shortage in case of a backstop, and if it stayed in the EU?
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/tory-mp-threatens-ireland-with-brexit-food-shortages-890762.html

The "backstop" was a british proposal, and the EU agreed to it as did Ireland. It is perfectly clear that there will be a hard border with no backstop, this was never in question. How else will England want to "protect its borders" in case of a no deal brexit? So it is so bad to say how it is aloud and call a spade a spade eh?
This has all be ignored during and since the brexit refeferendum, don't try to blame all this bull on the EU again.
What you always ignored and constantly gloss over is the simple fact that a case of Backstop actiove is a wepaon in thehands of the eU to keep the UK helpless and in a tax uniuon FOR ALL TIME TO COME, if so the eu wishes. Its a biblical trump card in the hand of the EU. And you innocently ask why any UKler could have anything against that, since the EU said it means it only oh so well.

You play possum. And you know it.

May shoud have never agreed to this. It wasd the last, the decisive mistake of her, in a chain of mistakes she made. Though even if she would have played the match best way possible, it is highly questionable that there would be a better situaiton today, sicne the EU from all beginning on was set to opunish the Brits and execute an example to scare any other people wanting leave the EU away from that idea. To make it as miserable as poissible for the UK, under all costs, was always the top priority in the way the EU played it. Not seeing that means to refuse to see the EU's top prioritiy: teaching a lesson.

Ireland indeed got threatened with a customs regime if it does not impose a hard border to the North, severla German media revealed in the past days. You can look it up yourself. Brok, Asselbloom and others later put it in words once again for sure. tHis was because the Republic indicated it may try to save the peace by not enforcing such a hard border. The threats from Brussel meanwhile has made the Republic sharpening its language again, though still trying to weasel.

I was against any negotiatiuons form beginning on. I did not forsee just every detail and comliuction, but in egnerla I am not suprised a bit by where they satand now. Its all a waste of time, and it never had a chance to be anything different. The UK either will be independent form the block by a dew factor hard Brexit, or any "compromise" will keep it subjugated in dependency despite any referendum. They still do not want to see that in London. They still want to eat the cake while keeping it - a cake that they even never have baked (baken? damn grammar...) it in the first.

Jimbuna

02-05-19, 12:34 PM

https://i.imgur.com/daOSSDu.jpg

Skybird

02-05-19, 04:01 PM

^ Yes.

Add Germany to that faction of "not wantin to let you go due to money" as well, and the other netto payers. Without the UK, the net receivers can be voted down by netto receivers every time. Which means due to the isnane structure and design of the EU the netto receovers can than dimninate and rle how netto payer havce to pay for the netto receiversd in the future - and the payers no longer can block that with a veto.

Go figure.

I am surprised how little this gets comunicated in our media over here, I think I saw it beign mentioned by not even ever ythird of our major newspapers here. Although it is pure dynamite.

Thus, the Brexit will cost Germany much, much, much more than just the imminent costs calculated and communicated in the TV shows so far. MUCH MUCH more. Its not possible to give a real number, but no doubt we talk about many factors - and even higher factors the more desperate the state of the FIAT money crisis becomes.

Another chance for the Germans to learn this lesson. Though I would not bet money on that this time they finally will. All chances before have been rejected by them. This German disease I call hysterical romanticissm, you know.

STEED

02-05-19, 04:34 PM

Here's a old gem how about France Germany and the UK form a new block and leave the EU to sink.

Skybird

02-05-19, 05:03 PM

What do you mean - France, and the UK...?

Ah. "British humour."

:D

STEED

02-05-19, 05:32 PM

It's something from a few years ago some expert said.

skidman

02-05-19, 07:19 PM

https://i.imgur.com/daOSSDu.jpg

And the UK owes 2 trillion (Euro of course). What's the point? This is pathetic.

Oh and by the way: There is nobody who keeps the UK from walking away. It is the UK that still wants to negotiate (though the deal is done and dusted and has been on the table for some time now).

A side note: All my British colleagues in the meantime have applied for European citizenship. Two will become Dutch, one will become German and one will become Belgian (dear me, good beer though). That's four high profile programmers / modelers lost and it's only the beginning.

Jimbuna

02-06-19, 06:37 AM

"It's not good enough to come back next week and say that the negotiations are ongoing," a senior Cabinet minister warned. But will the prime minister's travels this week do more than just keep the show on the road?

Today she's in Northern Ireland meeting the different political parties, including the DUP - whose votes she needs in Parliament - who are totally opposed to the current version of the controversial backstop, as well as Sinn Fein, who are just as adamant that it must remain.

Then on Thursday, Theresa May will be in Brussels, asking - again - for the EU to amend the policy, seeking either a time limit or a legal upgrade to the promise that both sides will only use it if they really, really, really have to, and they don't expect it to last forever.

In short, today's a chance for the PM to test out what she'll ask for, tomorrow, an opportunity to sell it as hard as she can in Brussels.

Remember, she has asked for these changes before and been turned down.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47142078

I reckon she's wasting her time....the game of 'chicken' still has 51 1/2 days to run.

Jimbuna

02-06-19, 07:22 AM

https://i.imgur.com/UCARZo7.jpg

STEED

02-06-19, 07:36 AM

We all are in debt with one another borrowing money and in some cases buying debt.

https://worlddebtclocks.com/#world

Moving on...
Donald Tusk makes a stinging comment.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47143135

Jimbuna

02-06-19, 07:57 AM

European Council President Donald Tusk has spoken of a "special place in hell" for "those who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan of how to carry it safely".

That'll be Poland then Donald? :hmmm:

Former UKIP leader, and now an independent MEP, Nigel Farage, tweeted back at Mr Tusk: "After Brexit we will be free of unelected, arrogant bullies like you and run our own country. Sounds more like heaven to me."

Nice one Nigel :up:

CDR DPH

02-06-19, 08:40 AM

I suspect Brussels is completely apoplectic at the possibility of the UK blazing a trail of self-determination, unilateral economic prosperity and fundamental sovereignty that they (the EU) are compelled to make leaving as contentious and difficult as possible to dissuade other countries from thinking along the same lines.

It is pretty clear (at least to me) where the EU wishes to be in 20 years time. There are no scheduled stops on that runaway train destined for absolutism. No time like the present to jump off before it becomes even more difficult to do so.

Stay the course Britain. If you cave in now for the sake of political expediency and appearances, you'll be sorry.

Good luck. Still lots of time between now and March 29th for the self serving politicos to muck it up.

Skybird

02-06-19, 05:13 PM

Is it true that the good Friday agreement allows a referendum in North Ireland whetehr or nnot to unitr with the republic of Ireland? If true, this might be a direction things might shift if there is a hard Brexit - to prevent a new wave of violence about Ireland. London might not be happy, but as I always say: the local population of a reigon has any right there can be, always and naturally, do say they do not want any longer be governed by somebody else.

I think if this is possible, the EU will not be shy to bend rules and motivate Ireland, both Irelands, to go right this way. Even more punishing of the stubborn Brits. And thus very welcomed in Brussel. Might also pave the way for such referendums in Scotland again, and Wales? The eu no doubt will lure them with all money needed, even if it violates its own rules.

The British reply, or retaliation if you wish, could be to run an economic policy of radical low tax regime that will confront the continent's socialist tax tyrannies head on. A radical tax oasis is one of the best argument for free business to change headquarters. The EU doe snto want naitons to compete with each other. So here is right one of the eU's weak points.

Somehow Britain will need to run an economy after a hard Brexit. Liberalization of the fiscal regimes might be the only realistic option to clal back the producing industries that have lefdt Britain in the past 30 years. Its also the way to defend the financial centre market of London.

Drop taxes, and most dramatically so, Britain. Wanting to weasel through with what right now there is, imo will not work. The competition is not kind and understanding. And especially China has no understanding for such nonsense. They are too powerful by now as if they would need to listen to European laments and concerns.

---

Brussel shot a terrible own goal today by forbidding Siemens and Alstrom to fusion, forming a - still inferior! - front to the globally advancing train and rail industry of China, namely CNNC. Quite retarded a decision, the Chinese now can take out both competitors one by one, so to speak. Childsplay, I predict. As good if not better high speed technology, for much lesser money, and selling this pack into third world countries by offering them attractive credit conditions - that later form the basis to push them deep into dependency form china when their victims learned that they were invioted to bite off more than thy could chew. Biggest looser: Europe. CNNC would still have been superior if the two biggest European train makers would have fused. Brussel needlessly helped the Chinese a lot here, and turned an already critical game into a lost one.

I recently read an old joke form the late 70s. A Chinese chicken tells a Western pig: let us do a joint venture, let us do a ham-and-egg joint venture. I give the eggs, and you bring the ham.

mapuc

02-06-19, 06:02 PM

STEED

02-06-19, 06:24 PM

The day is getting closer to where UK leave EU.

It will also be the day, if you read all these doomsdays prediction, where UK sinks into Hades.

So before I forget it.

It have been a real pleasure, to have known my English friends

Markus
Jim's handing out free beer as we go down HMS UK due to hit the EU Iceberg in 50 odd days time it's been a blast. :)

Reece

02-06-19, 08:39 PM

https://www.necoichi.com/files/topics/3858_ext_01_0.jpg
What do you think of this whole Brexit deal cat? . . . EU!!

Catfish

02-07-19, 03:54 AM

^ @Reece lol

Usually i hold myself back a bit, but after all this here i think it is time to call a spade a spade.

@ Jim i do not think those propaganda posters you posted have much to do with reality.

Regarding Farage about Tusk, always heartwarming to see when an arrogant bully like Farage is astonished others can hit back like him. How unfair! Racist!! (just of all Farage, laughing my a.. off) Blah!!! Unfortunately Tusk does not quite possess the poisonous rhethorics of a Farage, but it was refreshing to see for once.

After all this Tusk meant it in good humour, something that brexiters seem to have forgotten since 2016.
How often have Farage and and other UK politicians together with tabloids like the SUN, the Express etc. insulted the EU and its 27 other nations of being Nazis, Soviets, arrogant and bullies creating a europen superstate, without shame and (even worse) without ever getting the appropriate answer?

Allthose making those accusations (oviously without having a clue about the democratic processes within the EU) should decide whether the EU is falling down and collapsing, or becoming the Nazi superstate (yes Rees Mogg and Duncan Smith said that), or a new kingdom, with a Napoleon, or Hitler, or Juncker becoming the absolutist ruler eating babies for breakfast, or an Isis Caliphate, or the prison of the Soviet Union, or WHATEVER propaganda can think of to insult those bloody foreigners.

"quislings, collaborators, traitors – language that pitches the EU not as a club run by some of Britain’s closest allies, but a hostile force at war with England."
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2019/02/donald-tusk-affair-shows-britain-abusive-relationship-eu-and-we-re-abuser

Brexiteers liken European leaders to Nazis and Soviets, but the minute they answer back, they cross the line?
The Sun, The Express and those other Murdoch papers influenced by Russia have become the new low level of coverage and propaganda, and i am a bit concerned that some here and just of all Jim echoes that.

After two years of negotiations back and forth, with England trying to cherry-pick again (and the EU succumbing to a lot of it) the negotiated deal has been destroyed by those who proposed it, with two years wasted, all beginning from scratch and no one knowing how long all this will last.
No wonder it all gets on everybody's nerves.

(OT does Farage really think that George Soros the jew is after him? It seems Farage has come a long way, now he's building up the far right "Movement" in Europe, with help of Alex Jones and together with Steve Bannon.
"Hungarian-born investor and philanthropist, who after the fall of communism, funded democracy-building institutions and movements across eastern Europe. He became a hate figure to the Russian government, who launched a propaganda campaign portraying him as a meddling Jewish banker."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/25/why-wont-nigel-farage-answer-my-brexit-questions)

Jimbuna

02-07-19, 06:46 AM

Meanwhile...down on the ranch.

https://i.imgur.com/SbFbRSu.jpg

Jimbuna

02-07-19, 06:57 AM

Theresa May is in Brussels to press EU leaders for legally binding changes to the Brexit deal.

The PM will insist the UK will not be "trapped" in the backstop - the plan to avoid the return of Irish border checks whatever UK-EU trade deal is agreed.

She will say the plan must change if it is to win the support of MPs who urged her to seek "alternative arrangements" when rejecting the deal last month.

However, the EU has repeatedly ruled out changing the withdrawal agreement.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47152035

I continue to believe she is wasting her breath....far too early in this game of 'chicken' should there be any change at all.

The UK's lowest-paid workers will get a pay rise of more than £2,600 per year under a Labour government, Jeremy Corbyn will say.

During a visit to Worcester, the Labour leader will set out policies including a pledge to raise the National Living Wage to £10 an hour in 2020.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47149646

Steptoe sick of being out of the limelight just has to raise his head from under his rock :nope:

Skybird

02-07-19, 07:22 AM

^ ^ Its worth to remind of this read that August has linked to two days ago. It fits like "the fist on the eye" (German proverb).

https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/article/im-00001-my-confession?fbclid=IwAR2S4CYE0mNMjXGpZnltPUNJ94ihwt nkNMma22pyCz7E1px6f8Xibf-nlfA

Jimbuna

02-07-19, 08:25 AM

Theresa May and Jean-Claude Juncker have described their talks on changing the Brexit deal as "robust but constructive", in a joint statement.

The European Commission President stressed the withdrawal agreement could not be changed, as the UK PM wants.

But he said the EU was open to adding words to the non-binding future relations document that goes with it.

The two leaders agreed to meet for further talks before the end of February.

The EU and UK Brexit negotiating teams are, meanwhile, set to resume their talks to find out "whether a way through can be found that would gain the broadest possible support in the UK Parliament and respect the guidelines agreed by the European Council".

And Brexit Secretary Steve Barclay and EU negotiator Michel Barnier will hold talks in Strasbourg on Monday.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47152035

Most predictable and seeing as Parliament have refused to accept Mays Brexit deal and a majority have already voted against a no deal exit.

What now? :doh:

Skybird

02-07-19, 09:18 AM

adding words to the non-binding future relations document
Thats where I lost interest again.

STEED

02-07-19, 01:36 PM

It's the second coming of Corbyn...WE ARE ALL SAVED!

Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit plan promising, Donald Tusk tells Theresa Mayhttps://news.sky.com/story/not-helpful-theresa-may-confronts-donald-tusk-over-special-place-in-hell-attack-11630806

It's all over people we are saved we are saved. :yeah:

The church of Corbyn has saved the UK from Brexit hell.

mapuc

02-07-19, 06:35 PM

^ is it now you shall raise your hands and say

Praise the Parliament

Markus

Jimbuna

02-08-19, 06:29 AM

The Momentum deselection train has pulled into Luciana's constituency...

Add the fact she is Jewish and Steptoe is adamant there is no anti semitism in his party then come to your own conclusion.

A Labour MP who has been critical of party leader Jeremy Corbyn faces a no confidence vote in her consitituency.

Luciana Berger faces two no confidence motions tabled by the Liverpool Wavertree Constituency Labour Party.

They have called for these to be discussed in a meeting scheduled on February 17.

Ms Berger, who is Jewish, has been highly critical of Mr Corbyn over his handling of anti-Semitism within the Labour Party.

She has also criticised his stance on Brexit.https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/corbyn-critic-mp-luciana-berger-faces-no-confidence-vote-by-local-labour-party-a4060926.html

Jimbuna

02-08-19, 06:46 AM

Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit plan promising, Donald Tusk tells Theresa May

You can add Guy Verhofstadt to the above and tbh I'm not sure what Steptoe is playing at because this could well split his party.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47160625

STEED

02-08-19, 07:17 AM

The Momentum deselection train has pulled into Luciana's constituency...

Add the fact she is Jewish and Steptoe is adamant there is no anti semitism in his party then come to your own conclusion.

Corbyn can not be trusted he is Momentum's puppet.

You can add Guy Verhofstadt to the above and tbh I'm not sure what Steptoe is playing at because this could well split his party.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47160625

Joking aside of course the EU likes Labour's plan it keeps the UK tied to the EU.

Jimbuna

02-08-19, 07:53 AM

Skybird

02-08-19, 07:58 AM

I'm not sure what devious and cunning plot Steptoe is working on but it is common knowledge he is anti EU yet his offer to May is nothing other than total surrender to the EU.

I'm also wondering why he is not going for a peoples vote as agreed by his last party conference decision :hmmm:
He is a blatant opportunist, like every career politican. He is weaseling his way towards feeding his ultimate craving: that for power. And he egg-dances to avoid getting called out for being that power-hungry weasel.

No spine, no principles, no character.Which is no surprise, you only rarely see this on polticians nowadays. Just underhanded, brutal egoism.

Jimbuna

02-08-19, 11:06 AM

He is a blatant opportunist, like every career politican. He is weaseling his way towards feeding his ultimate craving: that for power. And he egg-dances to avoid getting called out for being that power-hungry weasel.

No spine, no principles, no character.Which is no surprise, you only rarely see this on polticians nowadays. Just underhanded, brutal egoism.

Agreed but sometimes one has been known to slip up...

https://i.imgur.com/o4bvbvr.jpg

STEED

02-08-19, 02:51 PM

Brexit gets naked!

Brexit: Cambridge professor invites Jacob Rees-Mogg to 'naked debate'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47171829/brexit-cambridge-professor-invites-jacob-rees-mogg-to-naked-debate

Let Jim handle this one after all he's a real man and Brexiteer.

STEED

02-08-19, 03:30 PM

Momentum you loose this round.

No-confidence motions against Labour MP Luciana Berger withdrawnhttps://news.sky.com/story/jewish-labour-mp-luciana-berger-faces-no-confidence-vote-after-antisemitism-row-11631209

Onkel Neal

02-08-19, 04:43 PM

Brexit gets naked!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47171829/brexit-cambridge-professor-invites-jacob-rees-mogg-to-naked-debate

Let Jim handle this one after all he's a real man and Brexiteer.

I came across this too :har::har::har:
https://vimeo.com/314265471

People, you've lost your minds.

STEED

02-08-19, 04:52 PM

I came across this too :har::har::har:
https://vimeo.com/314265471

People, you've lost your minds.

Brexit porn!...And here comes Dowly to check it out. :) :03: :o

Catfish

02-08-19, 05:14 PM

I came across this too :har::har::har:
https://vimeo.com/314265471
People, you've lost your minds.

Yep, but that already happened in 2016.
She has guts though. More than Mr Johnson, or "Nigel".

Jimbuna

02-09-19, 07:15 AM

Momentum you loose this round.

https://news.sky.com/story/jewish-labour-mp-luciana-berger-faces-no-confidence-vote-after-antisemitism-row-11631209

Too much negative press for even Steptoe to stomach.

Jimbuna

02-09-19, 07:18 AM

I came across this too :har::har::har:
https://vimeo.com/314265471

People, you've lost your minds.

Well she certainly has never learned how to use a shaver :)

Jimbuna

02-09-19, 07:20 AM

Arklow Shipping, a major Irish shipping firm, withdrew its support from Seaborne "without warning".https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47182361

An Irish shipping firm? odd that it should withdraw it's support the same day our PM was over there touting for a better deal :hmmm:

STEED

02-09-19, 12:22 PM

Nigel Farage hints at becoming leader of newly-recognised Brexit Party

The former UKIP leader said he would stand as a candidate for the party in the European Parliament elections if Brexit is delayed.https://news.sky.com/story/nigel-farage-hints-at-becoming-leader-of-newly-recognised-brexit-party-11632003

For some one who hates the EU it looks like he can't wait to be re-elected and get back on the EU gravy train. Sorry Nigel you have blown it in my book.

Jimbuna

02-10-19, 06:53 AM

Oh I'm not all that sure....it was mainly due to his efforts we have actually got this far.

Jimbuna

02-10-19, 06:57 AM

Prime Minister Theresa May will ask MPs to give her more time to secure changes to the controversial part of her Brexit deal - the Northern Irish backstop.

Mrs May is due to report back to MPs this week, after trying to persuade the EU to make last-minute changes.

According to the BBC's Iain Watson, the PM will promise Parliament another vote on other Brexit options if a deal is still not ready by the end of February.

Labour wants to hold Mrs May to her word and make sure the vote is held.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47187491

I'm beginning to think she is modelling herself on Thatcher.

Jimbuna

02-10-19, 10:51 AM

All is not as well in the EU as some would have us believe...:hmmm:

France and Italy's rising tensions are as ‘high as WWII’ – should we be worried?
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/columnists/france-and-italys-rising-tensions-are-as-high-as-wwii-%E2%80%93-should-we-be-worried/ar-BBTljqP?li=AAnZ9Ug&ocid=mailsignout

Catfish

02-10-19, 02:42 PM

No wonder, since Italy's right wingers are in line with brexit.
Salvini’s Northern League and Luigi Di Maio’s Five Star Movement in Italy is held up by the European right as an example of how they can get to power, with Steve Bannon trying to speed it all up together with Farage.
Maybe you could join forces and have finally your war, against France? With Farage as PM?
Frankly, there is not much making sense anymore. :haha:

Catfish

02-10-19, 04:02 PM

It's so simple: All countries except Great Britain are leaving the EU and form a new alliance:

https://www.der-postillon.com/2019/01/europaeische-allianz.html

Google translate:
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.der-postillon.com%2F2019%2F01%2Feuropaeische-allianz.html
:D

Jimbuna

02-11-19, 06:27 AM

Frankly, there is not much making sense anymore. :haha:

On that we can both most definitely agree :yep:

:03:

Catfish

02-11-19, 08:55 AM

There could be an adddendum to the Magna Charta, like ": "(...) if þe Pryme Ministre screweth uppe majorly, þe Kynge or Qween shall regaine thereupon His or Her powre and rule as in olde tymes (...)"
:hmmm:

Jimbuna

02-11-19, 11:51 AM

Theresa May will update MPs on Tuesday about recent Brexit talks as she continues to seek support for her deal.

She visited Dublin and Brussels last week seeking EU agreement on changes to the backstop - the "insurance" policy to avoid the return of visible Northern Ireland border checks.

Last month MPs - who will debate Brexit on Thursday - voted for the PM to find alternatives to the current backstop.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47192233

Unless she knows something nobody else does I suspect she'll have little or nothing to report.

The burning question for me is the fact both Ireland and the Uk have both stated they will not put up a border, so who will? The EU and their army?

Another fact I'd like clarafication on is what exactly are these so called 'alternative arrangements' she keeps making mention of?

Jimbuna

02-11-19, 11:57 AM

Disgraced MP Fiona Onasanya will be paid salary in prisonhttps://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mp-fiona-onasanya-is-jailed-for-three-months-but-keeps-her-job-kfjjrktgs?fbclid=IwAR0YrSw-hA14WwczBKlhejs25Z41GHY_54ynLMUqJg7qSBpER8o__b05CM w

Absolutely disgraceful :nope:

Catfish

02-12-19, 02:20 AM

Driving at 41mph in a 30mph zone :hmmm:

STEED

02-12-19, 05:59 AM

Absolutely disgraceful :nope:Told You.

Moving on to mad dog Jezzer I don't know if you picked up on what TalkRadio dug up on him to which he will say well that was 10 years ago and my view point has changed.

https://talkradio.co.uk/news/exclusive-jeremy-corbyn-called-european-union-be-defeated-explosive-rally-speech-19021129836

Skybird

02-12-19, 07:35 AM

Unless she knows something nobody else does I suspect she'll have little or nothing to report.

The burning question for me is the fact both Ireland and the Uk have both stated they will not put up a border, so who will? The EU and their army?

The Republic will do it all by itself. While its leader some days ago initially said they had no started to prepare for it and refuse to do so, he triggered a wave of almost condemnations from Eu leaders in the background, and just two days after these more or less unhidden threats were issued started a different vocabulary to use that tries to egg-dance between pleasing the Eu demand for such a border in case of a hard Brexit, and not slamming the news into the Irish people's face, and instead wrapping it in weasel-words.

When he has to choose between remaining integrated into the EU common market and custom union, and avoiding a border regime to the North - guess what they will do. If they do not run a hard border, they will pratcically get exlcuded from tax union and common market, with the EU's oute rborder then beign etsablished between the continent - and the Republic.

I think May now tries to kill time until the very last day so that on this last day then she can blackmail parliament with "either my deal or no deal". In content and argument, she has no options at all, so she has to play tactics and tricks.

Thats the issue with bureaucrats and polticians. They do not care for content and the spirit of intentions, they just care for formnalities being met and trying to get away with that. The tyranny of bureaucrats and lawyers. The regime of clerks. Clerkonomy.

Jimbuna

02-12-19, 07:44 AM

Well there are only 27 Commons normal working days left before Brexit unless she goes for an extension.

Brexit talks are at a "crucial stage", Theresa May will tell MPs as she updates them on the negotiations.

The PM will say "we now all need to hold our nerve" to get the changes needed to get her Brexit deal through Parliament by the 29 March deadline.

She has been trying to secure changes to the backstop arrangement - the "insurance" policy to avoid a return to border checks on the island of Ireland.

The EU has reiterated it will not renegotiate the withdrawal agreement.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47206286

Catfish

02-12-19, 08:04 AM

Does she know something.. I take it Mrs May seems to have a bit more knowledge about economy, or she listened to her advisors.

Also regarding the 'referendum' " ... rather than referring to the 'advisory intent' of the original authorisation, the Tories and UKIP managed to persuade everyone that it is a binding 'simple majority' decision and the will of the people...."

It was only after both sides (but most obviously 'leave') misrepresented the nature and intent of the referendum, and material facts about the current state and potential impacts in the future that "bad things" started to happen.

Jimbuna

02-12-19, 10:51 AM

Does she know something.. I take it Mrs May seems to have a bit more knowledge about economy, or she listened to her advisors.

She looked very confident on tv in the Commons today so she either does know something or she is a seriouly good poker player.

Jimbuna

02-12-19, 11:03 AM

The Prime Minister will quit her job in the summer – just weeks after Brexit – according to members of her inner circle.

The Conservative leader will call the leadership contest shortly after leaving the European Union, The Sun reports, but remains hopeful she can pick her replacement to prevent a successful Boris Johnson bid.

According to Cabinet ministers the Prime Minister has hinted to them personally she will trigger a Tory leadership race to end at the party's annual conference in October.https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/theresa-may-to-quit-this-summer-pm-hints-to-friends-she-will-go-at-a-time-of-her-own-choosing-after-brexit-in-bid-to-prevent-boris-taking-over/ar-BBTsYfn?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignout

I was half expecting this tbh :yep:

Skybird

02-13-19, 02:43 PM

That is why I said from beginning on an all-or-nothing-at-all-approach must be chosen that combines a rough Brexit with a revolution of the tax and FIAT money regime, as well as seeking greater productive and consummative autarky. In parts a copying of the Russian reaction to sanctions several years ago. I wrote a brief essay on that somewhere over two years ago. That just paste-and-copying exiosting trade treaties into new arranbegments would not be accepted by other "partners" that now are in a stronger position - wasn't this clear from all beginning on? Apparently not in Londown. Maybe due to the English mist.

German original source:

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/brexit-nur-vier-eu-abkommen-fuer-grossbritannien-kopiert-a-1253095.html

For Doubters, Liam Fox had no patience. "All the cowards who say we can not do that, say absolute crap," said Britain's Minister of International Trade. By March 29, the day of Brexit, the 40 free trade agreements between the EU and other countries will have been copied. "One second past midnight," they would come into force for Great Britain, Fox called cheering supporters of his Tory party.

That was in early October 2017. It has long since become clear that Fox will not be able to keep his promise. Just last week, he had to let industry officials meet in a confidential meeting, arguing that Brexit would also lose access to most international EU trade agreements.

How gloomy the situation looks but exactly, could keep London so far secret. However, an exchange of correspondence between the British government and the EU Commission, which is in the SPIEGEL, now shows the full extent of Fox's failure. A list in it indicates that by the end of January, London has not been able to continue any of the more than 40 EU trade agreements with third countries.

Since then, the British got only four successor contracts, but the volume should be manageable. The partners are

Switzerland,
Chile,
the East and South African trade association ESA
and the Faroe Islands.

The Government of Prime Minister Theresa May has also reproduced only a fraction of several hundred other international agreements of the EU - such as air transport, fisheries or legal cooperation.

The list is part of a letter from Tim Barrow, London Ambassador to Brussels, to Martin Selmayr. In mid-December, the powerful Secretary-General of the European Commission reminded Barrow in writing of the obligation of the British to keep the Commission informed about negotiations with third countries, provided that EU competences are touched. Selmayr demanded "timely" information on any such agreement that Britain is currently negotiating or intending to negotiate until Brexit.

On January 25, Barrow's response fluttered to the Berlaymont, the Commission's headquarters - and its content is expected to further increase the nervousness of the UK economy. She fears anyway an unregulated Brexit, through which she loses overnight access to the internal market and the customs union of the EU. Now there is also the hope that at least trade with the more than 60 third countries will be spared from the disaster that accounts for 11 to 15 percent of British exports.

In any case, the British will lose access to the EU's treaties with third countries through Brexit, regardless of whether or not they still succeed in withdrawing from Brussels. So there must be successor agreements. No problem, the Brexiteers in the Tory Party claimed: Countries like Canada or Japan just have to copy their treaties with the EU for the UK, an easy exercise.

But this plan has gone completely wrong. In addition to the four recently concluded treaties, Ambassador Barrow's list includes only one more trade agreement to be "sealed" shortly - with the Cariborum Caribbean group of states. Overall, therefore, nothing that could significantly cushion the economic consequences of an unregulated Brexit. The successor agreements are intended as an emergency measure for exactly this "no deal" Brexit, as Barrow emphasizes in his letter to Selmayr.

It does not look much better with the hundreds of other EU international treaties: only 21 could take over Britain by the end of January. These include aviation agreements with the United States, Canada and seven smaller states, agreement with Washington on insurance companies and contracts with a handful of countries on civil nuclear cooperation. After all, the British were able to come to terms with Australia via the wine trade, and with New Zealand through trade in animals.

Successors to the large caliber under the EU trade agreements but - for example, those with Canada, Japan, South Korea, Mexico or Turkey - you look on the list in vain. It is the end of Brexiter's popular fantasy that powerful economies were eager to transfer their treaties with the EU to Britain after Brexit.

Instead, it seems that many experts have long warned that countries like Canada or Japan see little reason to give the small UK the same terms as the much larger EU. In addition, London is under time pressure and desperately needs new agreements. For the most lengthy and complex talks on free trade agreements, that is a very bad thing.

The British had to first encounter this reality in January, when a Japanese delegation appeared in London. A simple copy-and-paste of the existing agreement, so much the representatives of Tokyo made clear, will not exist. Instead, one would calmly negotiate tariffs, rules and quotas. Tokyo, it was said, was confident that it would produce better conditions than with the EU.

What would happen if Britain were no longer profitable for foreign investors in the future, Japan's ambassador in London already made it clear a year ago: "No private company could then continue its business," said Koji Tsuruoka just outside the door of the headquarters of Prime Minister May. "It's that simple."
The punishement for two years of reality-denial, lack of detemrination and consequence, and half-hearted messing about with things that were notoriously glossed over.

They wanted instead to just stick with the old ways and illusions. Now the price for that indifference is being revealed.

I expected a very different policy drafting after the referendum. After all the British state adminstration model and bureaucracy once was world-famous for its efficiency and competence. Well - "once upon a time..."

Catfish

02-14-19, 02:26 AM

I wonder what Fararage and his circus say when they come to hell and find out there is not even a special place for them.

I guess May is heading for a "no deal" hard brexit now, they do not want another solution. After negotiating for two years and talking with the EU, advisors, opposition and party members, the latter decided to throw it all into a bin, deny the plan and let her fall.
So she will have to abandon the plan, her better conscience and responsibility towards the people, do what the parliament tells her and then flip the bird. Something she should have done much earlier, and pave the way for Johnson, Rees-Mogg, and Farage.
Then England has exactly what it voted for, and they can put the blame on who deserves it (though i already see Farage and his ilk gallantly chickening away again).

Playing the advocatus diaboli here of course, i still hope.. but i do not believe any more. Russia and China will be so thankful.

Skybird

02-14-19, 03:57 AM

I had no illusions, always considered it to be a chance with a considerable ammount of risk involved and the need to endure a couple of difficult years - but a realistic chance if played with determination and going completely new ways, making short process with petrified state-economic and financial theories and over-taxation and big state ideas. It makes me sick how dilletantically this chance was ruined and carelessly given away. Those responsible should be hung with their necks in the trees untl the birds are fisnihed with them.

Its a crime what they have made of this.

Its all ruined, and no way out. Even if they cancel the Brexit completely, the civil society's rifts will widen and the disgrace will be total - so will be Brussel's triumph. If May gets her deal in the end, it will be a total defeat for the UK and a situation of utmost depenbdecy and vasallship, being at the total mercy of Brussel. If it becomes a hard Brexit, they then wills uffer from the two years wasted with thinking they just need to paste and copy old treaties into new ones.

I curse a lot about the EU. But the UK establishement has played this much, much more stupid than the EU usually behaves. Not even when being drunk I could have expected this pityful display of a political system'S collapsing rationality. a total and complete system failure.

Any way, the EU has won this. With flying banners and yelling fanfares.

And the net receiver sin the EU can have a party. The net payers will loose their blocking ministerial veto. From now on, the net recievers can just vote for the amount of money being transferred to them.

Jimbuna

02-14-19, 07:00 AM

Perhaps we should invade Europe in an effort to build up our depleted industrial base and renew some self esteem :O:

Jimbuna

02-14-19, 07:06 AM

To avoid No Deal visa chaos this year why not consider a holiday or property investment in Asia's ultimate zero carbon eco village where recycling has been taken as far as humanly possible!? :hmmm:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-47137978/the-afghan-village-built-from-missiles

STEED

02-14-19, 08:28 AM

Shamima Begum: Ex-Bethnal Green schoolgirl who joined IS 'wants to come home'https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47229181

I say you can go rot you terrorist scum, PM May if you let her back in then you are a weak minded fool.

Catfish

02-14-19, 08:34 AM

Jacob Rees-Mogg Says It Could Take 50 Years To Reap The Benefits Of Brexit (https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jacob-rees-mogg-economy-brexit_uk_5b54e3b5e4b0de86f48e3566?guccounter=1&guce_referrer_us=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cudGhlZ3VhcmRpYW4uY 29tL3BvbGl0aWNzL3Nob3J0Y3V0cy8yMDE4L2p1bC8yNC90d28 tNTAtb3ItMTAwLXllYXJzLXdoZW4tZG8tbGVhdmVycy10aGlua y1icmV4aXQtd2lsbC1wYXktb2Zm&guce_referrer_cs=o_nXlXd15oT_iGwL6Jy6CQ)

:rotfl2:
A leading Brexiteer (..Mogg) has suggested it could take 50 years to judge whether Brexit has been an economic success amid fears quitting the European Union will lead to a downturn.

@Mogg: “You don’t seem to be prepared to put your own future on the line when you’re prepared to put everybody else’s futures on the line.”

So.. maybe it will not have been a sucess.

Catfish

02-14-19, 08:52 AM

Ivan Rogers:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/18/ivan-rogers-brexit-bombshell-digested-home-truths

Seems obvious? :hmmm:

1 ... points out that the government seems to be expecting the EU to bend its club rules to accommodate the UK. The EU is not going to do this, because its solidarity is with its partners.

2. ‘Other people have sovereignty too’
The EU will try to maximise its own sovereignty and power where it can, and this will not work to the advantage of the UK.

3. ‘Brexit is a process not an event’
The UK underestimated the EU’s ability to negotiate, and bought into the fantasy of a quick, easy break.

4. ‘It is not possible or democratic to argue that only one Brexit destination is true, legitimate and represents the revealed ‘will of the people’ and that all other potential destinations outside the EU are ‘Brexit in name only’.’

5. ‘If WTO terms or existing EU preferential deals are not good enough for the UK in major third country markets, they can’t be good enough for trade with our largest market.’ There is a contradiction at the heart of the argument made by many of those advocating no deal.

6. ‘The huge problem for the UK with either reversion to WTO terms or with a standard free trade deal with the EU is in services’. The UK services industry will suffer greatly under current plans for leaving the EU, because May has emphasised frictionless trade in goods, despite manufacturing representing a far smaller slice of the economy.

7. ‘Beware all supposed deals bearing ‘pluses’. The ‘pluses’ merely signify that all deficiencies in the named deal will miraculously disappear when we Brits come to negotiate our own version of it.’

8. ‘You cannot, and should not want to, conduct such a huge negotiation as untransparently as the UK has. And in the end, it does you no good to try.’ The EU has been much better than the UK at transparency during these negotiations.

9. ‘Real honesty with the public is the best – the only – policy if we are to get to the other side of Brexit with a healthy democracy, a reasonably unified country and a healthy economy.’

Next: Economic war with Trump. Alone.

"The looming economic slump is of no concern to Brexiteers fighting for the survival of their fantasy project"
Hand it all over to Farage.

STEED

02-14-19, 09:10 AM

The only thing to come out of Bexit is the fact politicians on all sides here and in the EU are the biggest load of Bastards who lust for power and the world stage and to hell with everyone else screw you plebs.

Time for the plebs to rise up and dish this out...:/\\chop

You can make of that any way you like.

Jimbuna

02-14-19, 09:36 AM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47229181

I say you can go rot you terrorist scum, PM May if you let her back in then you are a weak minded fool.

Do try to keep up.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2591596&postcount=3275

STEED

02-14-19, 09:46 AM

Do try to keep up.

I would have to sniff funny white powder to keep up with you jim! :haha:

I rather stick to the odd beer its better for me and cheaper. :)

Jimbuna

02-14-19, 09:53 AM

https://i.imgur.com/wtznJ5d.gif

STEED

02-14-19, 09:57 AM

https://i.imgur.com/wtznJ5d.gif

Now now...save that for the EU. :DL

Tune in and have a beer.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-parliaments-47201286

Catfish

02-14-19, 10:00 AM

The EU? Save it for Farage.

Very good article what happened/s and why. Read it. Please.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2014/04/nigel-farage-is-just-russell-brand-for-old-people/

"Instead of smearing themselves with tar and feathers, mainstream politicians should remind populists that they do the hard work of politics: representing constituents, reconciling competing claims and taking an interest in dry corners of legislation that affect people’s lives. Most politics is necessary drudgery. Seen from this angle, the “elite” are the people who get their hands dirty. And populists who damn the whole spectacle from cosy sidelines are the truly decadent ones."

Jimbuna

02-14-19, 10:02 AM

May probably won't win any of the amendments tonight tonight....Anna Soubry could be the one though.

STEED

02-14-19, 10:03 AM

^Out of date, Nigel left UKIP and as formed the Brexit party. :O:

Jimbuna

02-14-19, 10:05 AM

Catfish

02-14-19, 10:17 AM

nah it's a problem you feel to have with your government, and the article explains why.
Also, this charlatan just founded a new party.

"Take Back Control’ was one of the most persuasive soundbites ever used in a political campaign. It was seized on by the Bad Boys of Brexit who used it to persuade a majority of UK citizens to make a decision that in reality was so deeply damaging to their future."

Jimbuna

02-14-19, 10:57 AM

^ I believe there is more chance of a general election then the UK leaving the EU as matters currently stand.

Should that be the case then I'd expect the Toties to gain a clear majority by not a large margin but a majority nonetheless.

STEED

02-14-19, 12:02 PM

Here we go again, MP's are now voting on Mad dog Jezzer's amendment.

Labour has....LOST
For 306
Against 322

SNP....LOST
For 93
Against 315

Brexit will not be extended by three months.

Anna Soubry has withdrawn her amendment for now.

MPs are voting on whether to back the government's Brexit strategy.

The Government has....LOST
For 258
Against 303

This was the big one and another blow to MayDay.

https://news.sky.com/story/live-theresa-may-facing-another-defeat-as-mps-debate-brexit-11637081

Reece

02-14-19, 06:15 PM

Never trust the government never trust a politician.
Amen to that STEED, looks like the UK has lost its independence!! :doh:

Catfish

02-15-19, 05:49 AM

^ How so? :hmmm:

Jimbuna

02-15-19, 06:05 AM

Theresa May will press on with efforts to secure a revised Brexit deal, despite another Commons defeat, and will return to Brussels "within days".

MPs voted against a motion endorsing the government's strategy by 303 to 258, with 66 Tory MPs abstaining.

Steve Baker, of the Conservative backbench European Research Group, which led the rebellion, called the loss a "storm in a teacup".

Business Minister Richard Harrington accused the ERG of "treachery".https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47251134

She just doesn't know when to give up or come to the realisation that if she hadn't agreed such a seriously bad (for the UK) deal then matters would probably be quickly resolved.

Catfish

02-15-19, 06:33 AM

^ What can she give up? Being the PM? I can't see the queue of new aspirants wanting her job.

What exactly is the "bad deal" for the UK? For all i know no one knows what exactly has been negotiated. The backstop?

Reece

02-15-19, 06:50 AM

^ How so? :hmmm:
From what I can see it would take a miracle for Brexit to work, but I suppose miracles happen!:hmmm:

Jimbuna

02-15-19, 06:51 AM

^
^ The backstop is probably the most damaging part but added to that is the fact £39 billion would need to be paid and despite leaving on March 29th the UK would continue to pay further sums until at least the end of December 2020 and still be bound by EU rules which amongst other things would prevent the UK from negotiating trade deals with other countries.

Bound by the rules whilst continuing to pay and having no say or vote on matters.

As has been said previously...a vassal state.

Reece

02-15-19, 07:02 AM

From what I can see the EU is a sinking ship and the only ones keeping it afloat is UK and Germany, maybe I'm wrong there but certainly it is in Britain's best interest to leave! Not an easy task but if Brexit fails now it is unlikely to ever leave the EU, that would be sad!! :oops:

Catfish

02-15-19, 08:18 AM

@Reece i have heard so often that the Euro and the EU will fail and the sky falling down, in the last years.. didn't happen. Maybe it will. In the moment it looks as if it will not.

Scottish view of brexit as a "sinking ship":

"Marieke is mostly angry about how Brexit was a waste of money and especially how the vote was based on no real evidence: no-one really knew what they voted for. ‘The Leave party campaigned illegally. They spent way more money on their campaign than they were allowed to and they made up statistics right left and center. They openly blamed both immigrants and Brussels, when all the things they were complaining about were things the UK government was in control of,’ [...]"

http://www.21bis.be/scottish-opinion-about-brexit-unfortunately-we-are-in-this-sinking-ship/

Catfish

02-15-19, 08:27 AM

Is this true? Who knows the real numbers?

"Dropping on doormats are HMRC (https://www.mirror.co.uk/all-about/tax) summaries of the past tax year, 2016-17, detailing how much we earned and paid in Income Tax and National Insurance.
I recalled the ha’porth of tar advice after reading a family member’s statement.

This grafter was deducted £4,227 of £23,113 earned over 12 months, so I turned over the single sheet to see how his tax was spent.
Lying Brextremists conned a narrow referendum victory by pretending the European Union was stealing a huge wedge of your money and, hey presto, £350million a week would be conjured for the NHS (https://www.mirror.co.uk/all-about/nhs) ."

So how much of his £4,227 annual tax and NI went to the EU budget as part of the UK contribution? £30. Yep, 30 quid. In a whole year. A tad less than 58p per week."

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-lies-cost-eu-sinking-12010423

STEED

02-15-19, 07:39 PM

I signed up catfish to join the Brexit party. :D

https://www.thebrexitparty.org

Skybird

02-16-19, 03:48 AM

The payments to the EU never were the prime argument for me. Although the self-servicing mentality of EUcrats makes me sick and furious.

https://www.ednh.news/eu-payers-and-receivers/

Peanuts. However, add the costs of the Euro esaster and credits and Target-2 system to it, and you immediately lightspeed-jump into dimensions that makes one dizzy. Germany has more than three times the value of its yearly national GDP in the fire.And has zero chance to ever get it back. A few hundred millions in interests gained, cannot gloss over the the enermous deficit. The economic gains that Germany is claimed to have from these "investments" :har:, are a hilariously flawed logic, since they man that we give others the money by which they then buy our products. In other words, we pay ourselves and hand the products over for free, so to speak. Clever - not.

Personally I think the Euro system is an even greater messup like the Warsaw Pact economies were. Its just that the long time consequences from it still have not reached us in full - but they will. Signs are on the wall already, for everybody to read if only he opens his eyes.

In the end, we will pay with massive loss of freedoms, and massive expropriation by desperate politicans and central banks.

Killing the eU means to kill the Euro. Killing the Euro means to kill the EU. Both are incompatible with the idea of a liberal Europe and the meaning of the term "justice". Justice needs causal own responsibility as an inevitable preconditon for "justice" terminology making sense. Socialists hate the very concept of own responsibility, and want to collectivize individual failure and incapability. Or in other words: they want to bring economic competition and compoarison to a full stop. Thats what the EU and the ECB do. The number of de facto incompetitive companies in Europe has tripled over the past couple of years, being artifcally kept alive with subsidies. And the rate at which this is beign done, accelerates.

Catfish

02-16-19, 06:02 AM

target 2 has more consequences for Germany than for England/UK. So it is bad for us but not a reason for brexit. The general idea is to even out economically weaker countries to get their economy going, which b.t.w. went very well with Slovenia.
When you are thinking of your country alone it is of course TREACHERY! NAZIS ! THEY WANT OUR WOMEN ! THE SKY WILL FALL !

@Steed thanks for signing me up :D Can i meet the Dear Leader Farage personally then? Close up and personal, soda speak.

STEED

02-16-19, 06:28 AM

@Steed thanks for signing me up :D Can i meet the Dear Leader Farage personally then? Close up and personal, soda speak. When they send you a email ask can you meet him for a Bun fight. :03: :)

STEED

02-16-19, 06:52 AM

Looks like the Establishment is doing a grand job in protecting themselves from the Brexit mess and the rest of us our going too pay for it...Time for a revolution? :hmmm:

Jimbuna

02-16-19, 07:24 AM

Jimbuna

02-16-19, 07:35 AM

Two shows I never miss on a Thursday evening are Question Time followed straight after by This Week.

Sadly only Question time will remain after July.

BBC's This Week to end as host Andrew Neil steps downhttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47251264

Skybird

02-16-19, 07:05 PM

target 2 has more consequences for Germany than for England/UK.
I know all too well. I wanted to remind of that there is much more serious money stuff than just the direct payments to or from the EU to EU members. The EU budget is about arrogance and hybris. The Euro is about destroying a money system and the national economies on a whole continet - and punishing the ordinary people a first, a second, a third time for that capital (I mean major) crime committed by the "elites".

The EU in the end is about simple redistribution of wealth nowadays. See my current sig.

Jimbuna

02-17-19, 06:52 AM

Theresa May has urged Conservative MPs to put aside "personal preferences" and support a Brexit deal in the Commons.

In a letter to all 317 Tory members of Parliament, the prime minister said "history will judge us all" over the handling of Brexit.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47268417

I doubt this will make any difference at all :hmmm:

STEED

02-17-19, 07:08 AM

I doubt this will make any difference at all :hmmm:
Dear Conservative MP's

If you choose to stab me in the back I will bring down this party and the country so you better vote for me got that you little thugs, I'm the boss and I will bring the whole country down and put Labour into power.

PM May

Jimbuna

02-17-19, 07:42 AM

https://i.imgur.com/3wnk0Ka.jpg

STEED

02-18-19, 06:24 AM

AT LAST THEY STOOD UP...

WELL DONE. :yeah:

Seven Labour MPs resign from party to form independent grouphttps://news.sky.com/story/live-labour-mps-to-speak-on-future-of-british-politics-11640901

Take that Mad Dog Jezzer!

Jimbuna

02-18-19, 07:25 AM

Seven MPs have resigned from the Labour Party in protest at Jeremy Corbyn's approach to Brexit and anti-Semitism.

They are: Chuka Umunna, Luciana Berger, Chris Leslie, Angela Smith, Mike Gapes, Gavin Shuker and Ann Coffey.

Mr Corbyn said he was "disappointed" the MPs had felt unable to continue working for the policies that "inspired millions" at the 2017 election.

The MPs are not launching a new political party - they will sit in Parliament as the Independent Group.

But Chuka Umunna said they had "taken the first step" and urged other Labour MPs - and members of other parties - to join them in "building a new politics".

"Politics is broken, it doesn't have to be this way. Let's change it," he said at a launch event in central London.

He said there would be "no merger" with the Liberal Democrats and the group wanted to "build a new alternative".https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47278902

Well I wish them well because 'Politics' is most definitely broken atm and it wouldn't surprise me if more MP's from other parties start jumping ship.

https://i.imgur.com/tko7drE.jpg

STEED

02-18-19, 07:38 AM

Mad Dog Jezzer and his marxist army will view this as the start of the great purge/push to rid Labour of the centre-left. One thing is for sure he will keep a low profile at PMQ's this week....Maybe.

Jimbuna

02-18-19, 07:43 AM

Only one thing is beginning to look certain and that is Labours inability to become the next government.

Jimbuna

02-18-19, 08:37 AM

And now we have one of our EU so-called partners starting to rattle their sabres over UK territory, namely Gibraltar.

A Spanish warship has ordered commercial vessels to leave British waters, Gibraltar’s government said.

The warship’s crew can be heard in an audio recording of a radio exchange on Sunday telling vessels anchored at the Rock to “leave Spanish territorial waters”. Royal Navy boats were deployed in response to the incident.

The boats that had been told to leave were ordered to remain by the Gibraltar Port Authority during the incident, which was branded “foolish” by a spokesman for the government of the British overseas territory.

“There is only nuisance value to these foolish games being played by those who don’t accept unimpeachable British sovereignty over the waters around Gibraltar as recognised by the whole world in the United Nations convention on the law of the sea,” the spokesman said. “It seems there are still some in the Spanish navy who think they can flout international law.”

Gibraltar’s government accused the Spanish ship of trying to take “executive action” against the commercial boats.

A crew member is heard in the recording asking the Spanish ship “to verify you are referring to our ship” because they are anchored in Gibraltar. “We are not adrift – we are at anchor now,” he says, before being told again to leave Spanish waters.

A statement released by the Gibraltar government said: “The Royal Navy deployed a launch and a rigid-hulled inflatable boat to the scene. After being challenged by the Royal Navy, the Spanish warship sailed slowly along the Gibraltar coast with its weapons uncovered and manned.”https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/17/spanish-warship-orders-gibraltar-boats-to-leave-british-waters

Are they cruising for a bruising or even as weak as the Royal Navy currently is are they prepared to risk another Spanish Armade scenario? :hmmm:

:):03:

Skybird

02-18-19, 10:25 AM

And now we have one of our EU so-called partners starting to rattle their sabres over UK territory, namely Gibraltar.

Are they cruising for a bruising or even as weak as the Royal Navy currently is are they prepared to risk another Spanish Armade scenario? :hmmm:

:):03:
I fear the risks are all yours. If Spain plays it serious, they can take Gibraltar, all advantages are on their side, the UK has no trump at all. Britain cannot hold Gibraltar by force (as long as it does not will to use nukes against Spain). And Madrid is strongly marching by imperial tunes again anyway, see their obsession about owning the Catalan people and saying they have a right to own this other people and that other people have no right to not wanting to be owned by them.

Any violence used over Gibraltar would probably rip NATO apart, but who cares anymore anyway?

Jimbuna

02-18-19, 11:02 AM

Any violence used over Gibraltar would probably rip NATO apart, but who cares anymore anyway?

Well I think we can jointly agree on this portion of your reply :03:

MGR1

02-18-19, 11:27 AM

Re: The seven ex-Labour MPs.

Does that mean there will be seven by-elections? There should be.

Mike.:hmmm:

Jimbuna

02-18-19, 11:33 AM

I should imagine that decision will be taken by their constituencies cometh the next general election but atm they remain standing as independents.

I reckon what is more important is which way they will vote regarding important issues such as Brexit because some of them may well decide to vote against any Labour stance.

MGR1

02-18-19, 11:52 AM

That's what I thought. Say what you will about Douglas Carswell, at least he had the cojones to ask his electorate to back or reject his change in party allegience.

I can't see any of the seven making that choice.:hmmm:

Here's two Scottish takes on the split:

There is no clear space for a new centrist party in Scotland (https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2019/02/there-no-clear-space-new-centrist-party-scotland)

Beyond the matter of national independence, Scottish politics is far less ideologically polarised. In Scotland, of course, "independent" has a very different meaning. And this is why the former Labour MPs of The Independent Group (https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/02/qa-who-are-independent-group-and-what-do-they-stand), if they take the step of forming a new party to fight the next election across the UK, will struggle north of the border. A very gentle revolution (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-47279369)

What does today's parting signify? Is it the beginning of a new alignment in UK politics; the ambition of many since the establishment of the SDP in 1981 by the Gang of Four?
Perhaps. If so, it is initially a very gentle revolution. The seven - do they yet have a nickname? - are not, at this stage, forming a new party, which would involve recruiting grassroots members, setting up a formal structure, contesting by-elections and the rest.
This is one of the consequnces of having a devolved Scottish Parliament that governs many of the day-to-day activities up here - the upheaval at Westminster and political churn within England seems a bit removed.

Another is that as England (and Northern Ireland currently) is effectively a direct possesion of Westminster it doesn't have a functioning government. Scotland and Wales both do, albeit only within their respective devolved areas of responsibility.

Mike.

Jimbuna

02-18-19, 12:11 PM

I'm certainly no fan of Laura Kuenssberg but she is asking the million dollar question.

MPs still in the party will have a variety of reactions, from fury to sadness.

But few of them now could pretend there isn't a problem, even prompting an astonishing admission from the party's deputy leader, Tom Watson, who - remember - is also elected by the members who so overwhelmingly supported Jeremy Corbyn.

"I love this party. But sometimes I no longer recognise it," he said.

A warning that despite the government's many and multiple problems, it is Labour that's losing members and losing MPs.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47282328

MGR1

02-18-19, 12:58 PM

Going further into the parallel world of Scottish politics:

Two articles from Chris Deerin of the NewStatesman:

The travails of Scottish Labour: LINK (https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2019/02/scottish-labour-has-lost-empire-and-not-yet-found-role).

A tiny chink of light where the SNP's tendency to centralise is concerned: LINK (https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2019/02/scotland-s-new-budget-shows-it-s-finally-escaping-curse-centralisation).

Details of the Scottish Budget which was passed with the support of the Scottish Greens: LINK (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46541974).

Fraser of Allander Institute analysis of said budget: LINK (https://fraserofallander.org/scottish-economy/budget/) and LINK (https://fraserofallander.org/scottish-economy/fiscal-policy/scottish-income-tax-policy-2019-20/).

In the case of the projected "Workplace Parking Tax (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-47089134)" the Scottish Conservatives have shot themselves in the foot; Brian Taylor's summary: LINK (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-47156550).

It was vintage Swinney. Towering oratory. Searing passion. Rhetorical devices. All on display. All highly effective. It was only when the deputy first minister subsided once more, emotionally drained, that a mischievous thought occurred.
He hadn't actually supported the policy which had caused the controversy in the first place.
I speak of the workplace parking levy, conceded to the Greens as part of the price for a wider deal on the budget.
In essence, Mr Swinney said that ministers had been obliged to tolerate the discretionary parking charge in order to secure the goodies contained elsewhere in the budget.
But he contrived to turn this mundane admission into a tour de force. He added into the mix a powerful defence of local decision-making (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-47157371), accusing the Tories of "hypocrisy" in the by-going.
Again, this was done with panache and vigour. Mr Swinney listed four Tories who had signed a joint letter, supporting localism. One by one, he excoriated the villainy of their seeming about-turn - before uttering the last name in a quivering baritone.
Yes, chums, it was Jackson Carlaw. Jackson Carlaw (https://www.parliament.scot/msps/currentmsps/jackson-carlaw-msp.aspx) MSP is currently deputising for Ruth Davidson who's on maternity leave.

Mike.

Skybird

02-18-19, 03:22 PM

Well I think we can jointly agree on this portion of your reply :03:
Considering that there is just one regiment with one HQ company, two main and one reserve company of light infantry, three inflatable small motor boats and two small solid hull patrol craft, no aircraft whatever, and considering the distance advantage for Spain comparing to the UK's distance in logistics and air cover, and the small size of Gibraltar that makes it an option to simply shelling the hell out of it with artillery until nothing moves anymore, you must agree on the rest what I said as well, if you are a sane man. ;) :) Militarily defending Gibraltar against a serious attempt by Spain to take it by force, is an excercise in futility. There is no doubt on the outcome. None. Not even a Hollywood screenplay writer would be able to raise doubts on that. ;)

STEED

02-18-19, 04:24 PM

I'm not bothered the seven former labour MP's are now independant as this is more of a thorn in jezzer and his mob's side. If they all had join a another party(s) then yes their should be byelectiontions.

STEED

02-19-19, 07:06 AM

Derek Hatton rejoins Labour after 34 yearshttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-47286766

That will make that Mad Dog Jezzer happy.

Labour resignations: John McDonnell promises 'listening exercise'https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47292177

Will you act? Of course you will not just like in the last two years.

Jimbuna

02-19-19, 09:01 AM

Considering that there is just one regiment with one HQ company, two main and one reserve company of light infantry, three inflatable small motor boats and two small solid hull patrol craft, no aircraft whatever, and considering the distance advantage for Spain comparing to the UK's distance in logistics and air cover, and the small size of Gibraltar that makes it an option to simply shelling the hell out of it with artillery until nothing moves anymore, you must agree on the rest what I said as well, if you are a sane man. ;) :) Militarily defending Gibraltar against a serious attempt by Spain to take it by force, is an excercise in futility. There is no doubt on the outcome. None. Not even a Hollywood screenplay writer would be able to raise doubts on that. ;)

If history has taught you anything my friend then surely one of those things would be never to underestimate the UK in times of a national emergency.

The Argentinians were the last ones to make that mistake and whilst I readily admit the UK in terms of military capability have since diminished, there is still sufficient might that could be put together on land sea and air should a determined concentration of forces be needed for any specific task.

Having said all that, I can't see Spain invading anywhere considering the impications to NATO and the financial consequences to their tourism income, to name but two.

As to my sanity....that is subject to individual perception https://i.imgur.com/8En3lLe.gif

Jimbuna

02-19-19, 09:07 AM

Derek Hatton rejoins Labour after 34 years

Met him on many occasions over the years and never realised he was older than me :o

Jimbuna

02-19-19, 03:10 PM

https://i.imgur.com/BihNQ7X.jpg

STEED

02-19-19, 05:34 PM

Well Done.

Joan Ryan becomes eighth MP to quit Labour to join Independent Group https://news.sky.com/story/joan-ryan-becomes-eighth-mp-to-quit-labour-to-join-independent-group-11642422

STEED

02-20-19, 06:14 AM

BIG BREAKING NEWS...

THREE CONSERVATIVE MP's JOIN THE INDEPENDENT GROUP.

Three MPs - Sarah Wollaston, Heidi Allen and Anna Soubry - leave the Tory party to join Labour breakaway grouphttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47306022

Jimbuna

02-20-19, 06:40 AM

Could be the beginning of a three main party system. They already number one more than the Liberals.

STEED

02-20-19, 06:52 AM

Anna Soubry is no real surprise the only surprise is she always seemed more Liberal and why she never was a LibDem.

To be honest its going to change nothing unless there are a 20 to 30 odd leave the Con/Lab and I can not see that at the moment. For the Conservative side they can not afford to loose one and Lab don't care how many they loose as their ranks will be filled with Marxists.

Jimbuna

02-20-19, 06:59 AM

THE fledgling party started by breakaway Labour MPs has suffered a financial blow, after it emerged it will not be eligible for public money given to other opposition parties.

The Independent Group, which hopes to evolve into a new party within months, had been expected to qualify for hundreds of thousands of pounds in ‘short money’.

However the House of Commons has confirmed that short money is not available “to a new political party, if it was established in the middle of parliament”.

It means the new party would need to fight and win seats at a general election to qualify.https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17443066.funding-blow-for-breakaway-mp-group/?ref=fbshr

I wonder if this was thought through, especially with no current evidence of a financial backer.

MGR1

02-20-19, 08:57 AM

Could be the beginning of a three main party system. They already number one more than the Liberals.

Technically there are already three main parties, at least by number of MPs. It's just that the third largest party only represents one segment of one area of the UK.:03:

Mike.

Catfish

02-20-19, 10:27 AM

^ :haha: Well that's what we in Europe think as well, but obviously not England.

So.. how about a unification of the Irelands?

Jimbuna

02-20-19, 11:07 AM

Technically there are already three main parties, at least by number of MPs. It's just that the third largest party only represents one segment of one area of the UK.:03:

Mike.

Fair point :yep:

Jimbuna

02-20-19, 11:09 AM

So.. how about a unification of the Irelands?

Normally I wouldn't have a concern with that but such a move would quickly escalate into Welsh and Scottish independence calls which would bring about a break-up of the Union.

Skybird

02-20-19, 11:32 AM

A blow to the English ego, I admit, but if the people in wales and Scotland voluntarily and by themselves say they do not want to be together with Englandn anymore, then that is their most natural right that no body can deny them.

I only insit that they pay for their independenace themselves, not us. To call themselves independent while dpeending on us to pay their bills would be more than I tolerate. Its too bad that the whole EU today is about right this: people not beig linked and affected to each other beig forced to pay each other's bills.

The company of thieves and daggers. Most even want to be in this business, the others get forced by the majoirty to not escape from it.

MGR1

02-20-19, 05:59 PM

The catch with the independence game is economics.

Put bluntly, Northern Ireland can only exist as part of the UK, or as part of the Republic of Ireland.

Similarly Wales can only be part of the UK, or be re-integrated into England as it was prior to the late 1960's.

Neither can function as independent entities.

Scotland can function as an independent state, theoretically, but the shock of independence would cause severe economic damage in the short term with a very long term recovery. At the moment a majority of Scots aren't too keen on making that leap of faith. We Scots do seem to be remarkably fond of money if we want to painfully honest with ourselves.

Only England can function by itself relatively painlessly as it's the only net-contributer in the UK, the other three parts are subsidised to greater or lesser degree.

Ultimately the United Kingdom doesn't make sense for England if you look at it in pure economic terms BUT from the stand point of military defence then it becomes much more understandable.

If we take a look at the strategic position that England found itself in prior to 1707, it was at war France and had very poor relations with Scotland, a traditional French ally it shared a land border with. Therefore the Act of Union was a marriage of convenience - it allowed Scotland (more specifically it's ruling elite) to recoup it's losses after the failure of the Darien scheme. It allowed England to concentrate it's attention against France without having to glance nervously over it's shoulder to the north in case Louis XIV tried to use Scotland as a base to open a second front.

That's a gross simplification, but that's the basic essence.

If Scotland became independent and affiliated itself with the EU whilst Northern Ireland rejoined the Republic, an EU state, England (or England and Wales) would find itself surrounded by EU territory on all sides. Fanciful perhaps, but entirely possible.

My own complaint about how Scotland is governed within the UK does come down to economics - the Scottish branches of the main UK parties appear have no interest in allowing Scotland to become a net-contributer to the UK exchequer.

It would severely damage the "Scotland Strong in UK" message if Scotland could become self-supporting in the same way as England is and would give further impetous to the SNP's pro-independence message. For the UK Government allowing Scotland to have the necessary economic levers to improve it's economy would have a disruptive effect on the internal UK market and economy.

Neither appear to be willing to run the risk, unfortunately. A Scotland that was a consistant net-contributer to the UK would be much happier within it, I suspect.

Mike.

Jimbuna

02-21-19, 06:37 AM

^ Good and informative post Mike :yep:

Jimbuna

02-21-19, 06:44 AM

Labour and the Conservatives could face more resignations, with members of the new Independent Group saying they expect more MPs to join them.

Ex-Tory MP Heidi Allen told ITV's Peston programme "a third" of Tory MPs were fed up with the party's direction.

Tory MP Justine Greening said she would quit her party if it allowed a no-deal Brexit, while Labour's Ian Austin said he was considering his position.

MPs from the new group say they stand for "the centre ground of politics".https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47313366

https://i.imgur.com/qUoRNW0.png

Looks like matters could soon be gathering pace.

Skybird

02-21-19, 06:56 AM

It seems we agree, Mike, that independence is about being able and economically strong enough to be economically/financially strong (=autark) indeed. I described a general principle, you added the individual background of the Welsh, Irish and Scottish cases.

I'm fine with whatever they decide, voluntarily and without being pressed from outside. I just insist on that whatever it is - they must be able to afford it by their own means. Same I tell the Basques. The Catalonians, The Walonians. Or, fictionally, if they would have a referendum, the Bavarians in Germany. Everybody is free to deny being ruled by foreign people. But nobody has the right to demand that others have to pay for his living. Everybody has to prepare his living so that he can bear his own weight. Desires for more are just motivations for doing the work on the way form here to there all by oneself. They do not give you claim over others who should give you a free ride.

So much for the theory. Reality already is a labyrinthic mess. And thats why the EU is a mess as well. Its the architect of this labyrinth.

MGR1

02-21-19, 12:35 PM

Your last point is not untrue it has to be said. Or written, as the case maybe!

One point about Scotland that does seem to be consistently missed by it's detractors in England is that at one time it was a net-contributer to the UK's finances. During the period of what's termed the "Industrial Expansion", the mid 19th Century until roughly the 1920's to 30's, Scotland consistantly sent more money south than it received back in spending.

Even taking into account the tax revenue generated by North Sea Oil, during the post WW2 period Scotland has been a net-receiver more often that not. Even with past oil revenues factored in it's barely been break-even at best.

In order for that to change there would have to be either major investment by the UK Government (which prior to devolution only did "just enough" rather than trying to fix things once and for all) or Holyrood is handed the means to improve Scotland's economic outlook for itself. However, as I wrote before, that would upset the UK economy as one region would gain a competitive advantage over the rest.

How to square that circle, I have no idea.:-?

Mike.

STEED

02-21-19, 02:14 PM

Independent Group: Which MPs could be next to defect?https://news.sky.com/story/independent-group-which-mps-could-be-next-to-defect-11643623

As more days pass by the lesser the chances anymore will join them. Granted the big vote next week could raise the chances but in most part I hold no hopes of a big shake up in that stagnant rotten HoC.

Jimbuna

02-22-19, 06:23 AM

Ian Austin is now the ninth Labour MP to leave but says he won't be joining the Independent Group.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47330079

Jimbuna

02-23-19, 08:29 AM

Brexit should be delayed if Parliament does not approve a deal in the coming days, three cabinet ministers have warned publicly for the first time.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47336501

It looks like the tide could be turning against PM May.

Georg Lassen

02-23-19, 08:36 AM

Is Brexit in danger? That is the real objective of the EU, they do want Britain back but with under Franco-German vasallege.

STEED

02-23-19, 11:50 AM

It looks like the tide could be turning against PM May.Without the ERG in the Conservatives and the DUP PM May has no chance but hey if she wants to flog a dead horse feel free.

Here is my odds as it stands

Brexit with a deal 10%
Brexit no deal 10%
Brexit delayed 50%
General election 1%

Next weeks vote shall be a pop corn and beer day.

STEED

02-23-19, 11:58 AM

Is Brexit in danger? That is the real objective of the EU, they do want Britain back but with under Franco-German vasallege.Yes due to a bogde awful deal. The EU rather we did not leave but one thing is for sure if we leave and in the near future try to grobble our way back in you can bet the EU boot will hurt to get back in.

JU_88

02-23-19, 03:56 PM

Ha, Brexit is danger no matter what happens,
The Awful Deal,
No deal + Crash out,
or Even just cancelling it altogether (since the EU as an institution appears to be faultering badly)

So its a mess no matter which way it goes.
At least, there is no option without any negative consequences.
I'm struggling to find reasons to care anymore to be honest. - of course that can change depending on the outcome.

Jimbuna

02-24-19, 07:15 AM

Jimbuna

02-24-19, 07:21 AM

The Brexit vote must not be frustrated and the government needs to maintain an "absolute" focus on delivering it, Theresa May has said.

In a speech to Tory activists the PM said, as her negotiations with the EU reach their final stages, the "worst thing we could do is lose our focus".https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47346630

I fear she is wasting her breath but I'm confident should Parliament prevent the will of the people there will be heavy prices paid at the next General Election seeing as how all votes will be in the public domain.

Am I correct in believing that Parliament can vote in a way that gives a binding instruction to the government as to what the final outcome will be?

Should that be the case then the game has already ended.

STEED

02-24-19, 07:53 AM

I am now in favour of a second reforendrum and if the people vote to stay so be. I have said it right from the start it was a pack of lies on all sides and treated like a joke contest. The last two years have confirmed to me time for a revolution. British politics is not broken its dead and buried.

STOP BLOODY VOTING FOR THESE LOOSERS! :stare:

Skybird

02-24-19, 09:09 AM

Benefits of a Brexit from a libertarian point of view (= horrors of a Brexit from an EUrocratic point of view).

https://mises.org/wire/benefits-brexit

I stick to it, the EU should be destroyed, and every step helping in that is welcome to me, no matter who it is contributing to this cause. The danger emmitted by the EU already is too monumental and too threatening by now as if one can afford to be choosey anymore. This does not automatically make the enemy of my enemy my friend. It only makes him a tool I do not hold back from doing what it does - helping in the destruction of the EU.

Before it destroys us and everything our ancestors have bitterly fought and suffered for. And that was not just meaningless profanities like not needing to change your money when crossing borders for holiday.

Though I must admit that the second arugment given in that essay, liberty from illiberal values, is being eroded everywhere nowadays and not just in the EU, the pressure to agree to "consensus" equals totalitarian uniformity and prevents debate and discussion and disagreement, political correctness no longer just threatens to sanction divergent opinions, but already actively suppresses and defames them. Nudging, reframing, "cinvincing" - its all harmless sounding words meaning to prevent people from thinking of their own and opposing the will of the parasytical elitist regime at the top.

STEED

02-24-19, 09:54 AM

I hear on the news that usless PM May has kicked the can down the road yet again. The vote has been put back to March 12th, place your bets she still has a few more days to kick the can down the road one more time.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47348610

Georg Lassen

02-24-19, 09:58 AM

Jimbuna

02-24-19, 10:43 AM

Well stated, a federal superstate EU will lead to war in Europe, or several.

Do you seriously believe that?

Skybird

02-24-19, 11:36 AM

A continental superstate in the first will mean

1. centralism,
2. planned economy,
3. dictatorship,
4. one-party-rule with only alibi-diversity polishing the shine on the surface,
5. nightmare levels of corruption,
6. blossoming nepotism,
7. massive, though hidden expropriation and financial abuse of the masses,

and finally (and hopefully!!):

8. unrest, uprise and civil war to destroy this order.

Needless to say: such totalitarianism always means that the individual means nothing and will get sacrificed unscrupolously for the claimed cause of the collective and namely: the state and its claimed state'S reason.

Those being in power then, already today see themselves and act as if they were a new aristocratric superclass that ownes people and is so to speak: God-wanted to rule so that even votings against them must not be respected by them. Often prominent names even shamlessly frankly admit that they intend to bypass rules and not obey laws and treaties, if they see fit. There never was a public uproar over any such statements so far. The brainwashing of the regime seems to work remarkably well already. Framing, and relentless propagandistic bombardement in all mainstream media - do work, and function well.

I prefer to follow LaoTse and getting the evil dealt with while it still is small. Well, not so small anymore, I fear, but maybe smaller than the 7.point description I just gave above.

Though the next wave of demons already assemble at the exit gates of hell:
https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.achgut.com%2Fartikel%2Fdeutsch land_der_groesste_hedgefonds_der_welt

The author was formerly a freedom activist in the GDR and one of the most proiminent public faces of the active movement in the GDR that brought down the regime. Only to get the even bigger mess there now is.

STEED

02-24-19, 01:08 PM

Some one please get this morron of a PM out now, she is determin to carry out her way the crap way. I got £10 up for grabs for anyone whom can stop this self destructive morron hell bent in bringing this country down.

Catfish

02-24-19, 01:20 PM

Really, when i read the posts of some it is hard to argue. Why, even.

blah EU superstate blah:
1. centralism,
2. planned economy,
3. dictatorship,
4. one-party-rule with only alibi-diversity polishing the shine on the surface,
5. nightmare levels of corruption,
6. blossoming nepotism,
7. massive, though hidden expropriation and financial abuse of the masses,

and finally (and hopefully!!):

8. unrest, uprise and civil war to destroy this order. [...].

What hyperbolic claptrap. Did you read The Sun or the Express lately?
Corruption by lobbies from national governments trying to get advantages for their respective country, lobbyists from companies? Yes! This is called free market economy! Every bloody company has always tried to get advantages by whatever means. Not much to do with a central superstate, eh?
Where is your 'planned economy' ? Bullsh.!
'Dictatorship' Bullsh.! You have no idea what a dictatorship is!
'One party rule' :doh:
That the EU is more than a trade organisation is perfectly clear when it comes to certain values, of course! And this is a good thing!

A bit detached from reality, are you?
We will just see what happens, and we can talk in five years from here, after your promised downfall of the EU. Small hint: Won't happen.

Skybird

02-24-19, 01:34 PM

Really, when i read the posts of some it is hard to argue. Why, even.

What hyperbolic claptrap. Did you read The Sun or the Express lately?
Corruption by lobbies from national governments trying to get advantages for their respective country, lobbyists from companies? Yes! This is called free market economy! Every bloody company has always tried to get advantages by whatever means. Not much to do with a central superstate, eh?
Where is your 'planned economy' ? Bullsh.!
'Dictatorship' Bullsh.! You have no idea what a dictatorship is!
'One party rule' :doh:
That the EU is more than a trade organisation is perfectly clear when it comes to certain values, of course! And this is a good thing!

A bit detached from reality, are you?
We will just see what happens, and we can talk in five years from here, after your promised downfall of the EU. Small hint: Won't happen.
Reality denial par exellence.

Its not the future - its already the reality around us. I just described it having gotten even worse in the near future.

Self-chosen blindness and closing both eyes may provide you with the illusion that reality cannot reach you, that the consequences of the present status are only "future" that cannot turn "present". Prepare to get suprised. Soon.

Catfish

02-24-19, 04:26 PM

Skybird

02-24-19, 04:40 PM

Two more years of this mess...? Are they serious...??? :o

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/24/brexit-could-be-delayed-until-2021-eu-sources-reveal

I summarise that article in brief: make the British politicians so tired of getting called to vote on MP's plan that sometime during 21 more months of getting asked to vote every couple of weeks they become so tired of it that they finally let May have her pro-EU plan just to get over with it and being done with it.

If you do not get the vote you wanted to have, make them vote again and again until they are exhgausted and chnage their mind in favour of your demanded outcome. Has worked several times in the EU's past 15 years or so.

Why shortening agony when it is so much fun...

STEED

02-24-19, 05:16 PM

I can not see a no deal situation unless that washout of a PM has decided on final revenge against everyone against her. Further talks have done nothing apart from damaging the country with "What the heck is going on" and causing more friction from top to bottom. The whole country is getting fed up with this situation and dragging it on is a bad move.

Here is what we should do..

1. Stay in the EU
2. Get rid of that lot of useless career MP's and change the system from top to bottom.
3. Prepare the UK for a fast exit out the EU just before the collapse in the next 50 years.
4. Get tough on the EU and stick it to them.
5. Jim can post can good idea.

em2nought

02-24-19, 06:16 PM

3. Prepare the UK for a fast exit out the EU just before the collapse in the next 50 years.

50 years? I don't even give the USA 50 years. :hmmm:

mapuc

02-24-19, 06:46 PM

I have a feeling.
if it's based on my standpoint regarding EU or not I can't say

The feeling is that there are forces in EU and in England who have been working for a UK-entry to EU and not an exit which was planned after the referendum.

If it's based on my standpoint on EU and the hope the Brexit will be the first of many leaving EU, then this feeling is just an imagination of mine.

Markus

skidman

02-24-19, 06:52 PM

I summarise that article in brief: make the British politicians so tired of getting called to vote on MP's plan that sometime during 21 more months of getting asked to vote every couple of weeks they become so tired of it that they finally let May have her pro-EU plan just to get over with it and being done with it.

If you do not get the vote you wanted to have, make them vote again and again until they are exhgausted and chnage their mind in favour of your demanded outcome. Has worked several times in the EU's past 15 years or so.

Rubbish. Let's have a look at the facts: Only the UK can ask for an extension. This is part of the article 50 framework. Wether or not it is granted is up to the 27. So again the ball is in the British half of the pitch (and has been there for 21 months now). The EU's position has been very clear right from the start: We respect the vote of the British people and we will of course respect any decision made by the HOC: Westminster, make up your mind. And nothing happened.

You are oversimplifying, and may I say, you are doing it in a paranoid and childish way, as usual.

JU_88

02-24-19, 08:36 PM

^ And Lassen and you forgot the laws being forced up on the UK by the EU! And the unelected bureaucrats! And the rest of this dumb claptrap Farage and his idiot friends like Rupert Murdoch and Arron Banks try to perpetrate to what they call the dumb masses. :damn:

So you are told that 80% of your laws are imposed by unelected foreign bureaucracy, you hear that the EU costs the UK millions of pounds per day for the privilege, the EU is a dictatorship run by one party (lmao), makes plans for the economy like the soviet union did, and you are getting apoplectic.

Certain politicians and several newspapers repeat this claptrap and lies again and again to the British people. And they believe it! And it is a load of nonsense!

Catfish will all due respect, I think you need to read a bit further on how the EU operates (how its structured) and how little it can be held to account on its legislation. Plus what its long term goals and vision are. Because what the EU is today and has been for past few decades is far from the finished project.

Maybe also look in to its past history particularly its response to the 2009 crisis. Who did it protect and who did it punish back then?
Id also urge you look into Articles 11 and 13.

I'm not saying it doesn't have its merits - it does, but you act as though its beyond criticism. Nothing is.
Also Skys prediction that the EU could break up in 5 years is not actually quite as outlandish as it sounds, though personally I think it will last alot longer than that. But the EU is in a very real financial, cultural and existential wobble right now. With no real solutions in sight. The very fact that its problems and challenges are so multi faceted, doesn't bode too well - its getting hit from several angles at once.

Its biggest existential problems are:
1) it has half its member states running on fumes in terms of finance. (heavily in debt)
2) The west in general seems to be some what losing its appetite for more globalism/internationalism. (which is a pretty core value of the EU)
3) Its becoming increasingly harder to reconcile the differences between its member states as the political spectrum widens further out towards the fringes of the Left and the Right.
4) Its current leaders are idealists/visionaries who are very reluctant to make any concessions or compromises, so reform doesn't look too viable at present.
5) Its Rivals, emerging economic blocks else where in the world, threaten to wipe the floor with the EU on global trade.

China and india are exploding, South America and Even Africa are also not as far behind as many think. remember that all of them have one thing the west doesn't, sustainable population replacement and solid birth rates. We essentially import migrants to keep our work force strong and competitive - and to fund our aging populations though taxation.

An this is what makes the far left and far right solutions so laughable,
The far right would cut /restrict of our immigration which would eventually tank our economy.
The far left would seize/state regulate our economy which would eventually tank our skilled immigration.
Oh the irony.

Through out history all empires and Unions fall eventually. usually though stubbornness and rapid over expansion - sound familiar?
You see, its biggest flaw of of all is perhaps that its run by human beings, we don't have a very good track record of sustaining these things y'know? :)

Georg Lassen

02-24-19, 11:58 PM

Do you seriously believe that?

Yes and so do many people working in internal and external security that I know.

Georg Lassen

02-25-19, 12:06 AM

Georg Lassen

02-25-19, 12:11 AM

Catfish

02-25-19, 03:06 AM

@Ju88: Of course you are right. There are problems and the EU needs a lot of reforming, if it can even be helped anymore. I am just getting sick and tired of people echoing the whole far-right Bannon and Farage claptrap published in media like Breitbart, Fox, The Sun, The Express, the german Bild and those other usual suspects, without individually having any own idea or even the pretense to have informed themselves before they spread their opinonated hate, when the whole internals of the EU can be openly viewed, including all problems and challenges, and successes.
But conspiracies and endless lamenting are so much more fun!

Quote Ju88: But the EU is in a very real financial, cultural and existential wobble right now. With no real solutions in sight. The very fact that its problems and challenges are so multi faceted, doesn't bode too well - its getting hit from several angles at once.The EU is under attack from the far right not only because of facts or real existing problems, but for a major part because it is free in almost every aspect and has become a real worldwide competitor, with free trade and free borders, and nationalists hate that. Like Russia i might say. Others hate it because it means real competition, and a lot of others are just bored with a good life searching some sense for themselves, and certain media give them a reason and a target to blame.

Of course the Eu has problems, it consists of nations that fought each other to death not long ago, and as we see nationalistic chauvinism is not dead (Hungary, Romania, Poland, Turkey, now Italy blaming all on the EU (remember this bridge collapsing due to neglected maintenance? Italy's right wing immediately blamed it on the EU - when it was the right wing party's president who stopped maintaining bridges in Italy some years before. So again, BULL!), not to forget brexit and so on).

Do you think life will be better in a Europe without the EU? Really?
Think of who wants to destroy the EU, and why.

Compared to the USA and USSR the EU is closer to the latter by a large margin.
Yeah and it is so much better to live and work there, than in the EU :haha:
Once again certain people do not differ between a social democracy and socialism/communism? :doh:

Yes the far right is rising again, using "corruption", alleged "unfair treatment" towards them and terrorism as arguments to hide their racism and hate. It is not very well hidden but it seems to work good enough for a lot of people who "inform" themselves via tabloids and petty slogans.
(aww i get tears in my eyes when i think of poor Farage and Bannon, and Trump - they would never lie or just live out their hate)

The right wing uses everything in their urge to destroy the EU. Successes and humanitarion efforts are described as "weak", and China and Russia are the new heralds of a brave new world while indeed going back to isolated, sealed-off states.
Maybe it is only me but no i do not like their political systems at all!

Ok so maybe you can be "lucky" soon and have isolated, sealed off borders again, with nations that prefer war to trade. Have fun, i hope it hits you right between the eyes when it happens. Winter war anyone?

Skybird

02-25-19, 05:34 AM

1. Stay in the EU
2. Get rid of that lot of useless career MP's and change the system from top to bottom.

That is a contradiction. You cannot have the one with the other. The EU is the master safeguard to make sure the system and its personnel do not get changed "top to bottom". :03:
I would even say that is the primary reason for the forming of the EU in its modern post-ECC format. The ECC is a self-serving service for the political caste and its growing army of support regulators, bureaucrcrats and lawgivers that then must be adopted by national parliaments. With an innocent face, of course: "See, we have no choice, we must wave this through, EU rules demand that we do." Over 80 percent or so of new national laws are due to demands by Brussels, national parliaments have no say on them, nor can governments reject them. They can delay them by ignoring them - which is a breaking of EU law again.

Most of a nation's policy today already gets made in Brussel. And that is so sicne many years already. One of the reasons why many Britons back then decided for No in the referendum. ;) The EU bureaucracy procides an endless stream of regulations and laws that mostly get brought up and implemented in the background, hardly being noticed by public and media.

Catfish

02-25-19, 05:55 AM

[...] Over 80 percent or so of new national laws are due to demands by Brussels,wrong.
national parliaments have no say on themwrong.
nor can governments reject them.wrong.
Most of a nation's policy today already gets made in Brussel.wrong.

And the usual bunch of other lies.

There are absolutely no secret plans and no goal of creating a United States of Europe. The process has been entirely transparent and has involved local politicians of all parties. There are no transnational regional assemblies.
I wish most were not so reluctant and polite towards all the lies being thrown, but instead punch a direct factual answer in the face of those liars.

What is true unfortunately is that the next EU elections will change everything. The big picture will be a continent being pulled rightwards by authoritarian nationalist movements, by a millionaire-owned media for whom racism is a money-spinner, and by the information wars waged by Trump and Putin supporters. I almost wish it all goes down the drain, and that it all explodes into the very faces who now propagate all that, and who have themselves been fooled in a time when information was still available.

Jimbuna

02-25-19, 06:49 AM

I believe one of the EU concerns, should an extention be granted is the possibility that a large number of Farage clones will be elected into the European Parliament and bring with them much mischief.

May is clearly running down the clock in an effort into panicking MP's into voting for her deal rather than falling off a cliff edge.

I believe this to be a position of her own making, perhaps not initially intentionally but either way it is what it is.

STEED

02-25-19, 07:11 AM

Jimbuna

02-25-19, 07:26 AM

Wash, rinse. repeat. Wash, rinse, repeat.

STEED

02-25-19, 07:37 AM

Wash, rinse. repeat. Wash, rinse, repeat.

British politics. :har:

Jimbuna

02-25-19, 07:43 AM

No comment or I'd be forced to infract medel :shifty:

JU_88

02-25-19, 08:39 AM

@Ju88: Of course you are right. There are problems and the EU needs a lot of reforming, if it can even be helped anymore. I am just getting sick and tired of people echoing the whole far-right Bannon and Farage claptrap published in media like Breitbart, Fox, The Sun, The Express, the german Bild and those other usual suspects, without individually having any own idea or even the pretense to have informed themselves before they spread their opinonated hate, when the whole internals of the EU can be openly viewed, including all problems and challenges, and successes.
But conspiracies and endless lamenting are so much more fun!

Yes fair enough, but equally that can all easily be flipped in the other direction.
Owen Jones, the Guardian, Independent and Mirror, also espouse very bourgeois lefty clap trap and bad rhetoric. there is no such thing an an unbiased news source - being stuck in either bubble is not too healthy.
But people generally just go with confirmation bias - only reading from the places that tell them what they want to hear for a quick dopamine hit.
Because voluntarily challenging our own views is painful and hard.

Remember that all your top bank executives and politicians (the establishment) and prominently cosmopolitan middle class types were in favor of remaining.
Bear in mind these people are not exactly a bastion of truth, free from self interest either. But they more proficient in projecting the idea that its all because they care about others more than themselves.

lets be sensible about this shall we?

Those who want to remain:
Overall progressive middle class. left leaning and there for in favor of expanding government, more collectivism, co-operation and regulation,
They are concerned about the environment, public services & programs and the wealth divide between the wealthiest and poorest and cultural integration. keen on open borders.
A fringe of them are pro immigration for all the wrong reasons.
(Intersectional BS)
Above all else - they themselves are doing WELL in the current socio/economic conditions.

Those who want to leave
Overall conservative Working class, right leaning and in favor of smaller government. less regulation, concerned with national identity, security and heritage, keen to preserve their industry and culture and not have it dissolved in to something generic.
Have been let down / left behind in the rise of globalism.
keen on controlled immigration
A fringe of them are anti immigration for all the wrong reasons.
(Xenaphobic BS)
Above all else - they themselves are NOT doing so well in the current socio/economic conditions.

everything else I hear about about leavers and remainers can be written off as hysterical nonsense mostly. both leavers and remainers are largely ordinary people, not especially smart or stupid, and with no real ill intent if you actually talk to them properly, instead or riling them up with a stupid smear campaign and 'gotcha' moments.
Neither one is particularly right or wrong for wanting the things they want.
You go anywhere in the world and you will find people with the same kind of values.

But even then there is over lap- Conservative Right wing Remainers (ie.Cameron & Osbourne) and left Wing Brexiteers (ie Jezza & Galloway)
But the idea we should shout down and insult those we disagree with, and call them all 'nazis' or 'marxists' or whatever is plain stupid and hysterical. I'm not playing that game.

Do you think life will be better in a Europe without the EU? Really?
That is impossible to predict. But either way, it will be better for some and worse for others.
It not black and white, yes / no answer, is it?.

Think of who wants to destroy the EU, and why.
Yup i get it, but likewise we must equally:
Think of who wants to Preserve the EU, and why.

If there is one thing I've learned from all this political division, its not to trust people who start foaming at the mouth and ranting when talking about their respective political rivals.
There are some very deranged and unhinged people on the both sides of the spectrum, the insane are of no help to anyone.

Georg Lassen

02-25-19, 08:57 AM

Yeah and it is so much better to live and work there, than in the EU :haha:
Once again certain people do not differ between a social democracy and socialism/communism? :doh:

Yes the far right is rising again, using "corruption", alleged "unfair treatment" towards them and terrorism as arguments to hide their racism and hate. It is not very well hidden but it seems to work good enough for a lot of people who "inform" themselves via tabloids and petty slogans.
(aww i get tears in my eyes when i think of poor Farage and Bannon, and Trump - they would never lie or just live out their hate)

The right wing uses everything in their urge to destroy the EU. Successes and humanitarion efforts are described as "weak", and China and Russia are the new heralds of a brave new world while indeed going back to isolated, sealed-off states.
Maybe it is only me but no i do not like their political systems at all!

Ok so maybe you can be "lucky" soon and have isolated, sealed off borders again, with nations that prefer war to trade. Have fun, i hope it hits you right between the eyes when it happens. Winter war anyone?

USA has many of the same issues that European countries are dealing with but the main difference is the US constitution that guarantees freedoms that are not guaranteed in Europe.

Social democracy does not represent freedom any more than bolsevism, it has only worked in some sense in countries with a very homogeneous population.
Its implemention has been very close to national socialism, now countries that are trying to expand it even more and at the same time combine it with massive immigration are going broke.

Very typical of the left is that when you find someone you cant convert you get a tempre tantrum, sometimes I feel socialist tendencies are related to persons early childhood in some way.

Finland is a military camp, if Russia wants to come we will destroy them, that is balance of power at this time.

Skybird

02-25-19, 11:07 AM

Forget Brexit time for a revolution in British politics it's time for the masses to wake up and bin this rotten out of date system for a system that works for us the voter.

STOP VOTING FOR THE SAME OLD WORN OUT WAST OF TIME PARTYS.

If we are still in the EU at the time of the EU elections I will not be wasting my time time bothering to vote, I got better things to do. And that goes for all elections.
Welcome to my club. There are so many more so very solid and reasonable, logical reasons not to vote, it is beyond my horizon why people still believe in this insane muppets operetta. I recommended him before, and now do again: check the books of Jason Brennan. He is one of the leading academics in politics and political history, the WP once called him the leading expert on the theme of elections and political education. He delivers full broadsides against the flawed logic of "democracy". So far I have not heard anyone being able to seriously put the base arguments of his reasoning and conclusions into doubt, which is even more difficult since he bases on a profound empirical basis. Thats why many people have foamy mouths when wanting to confront him, but they cannot. Needless to say, he extremely polarises, since "democracy" today is not only not correctly understood as what it really means, but also is the golden calf everybody dances around - and here comes him laughing about it... I however disagree a bit on his argument for epistocracy, but cannot offer a better alternative expect maybe Hoppe's concept of private rights societies. Like Hoppe, Brennan is better in showing the extreme weakness and corruption of the current paradigm, than in pointing out realistic and fully functional alternatives. This does not make their criticism less valid and less precious, though. Possible that I am not consistent enough in following his view of epoistocracy, its a radical approach that again demands quite alot of trust in man, trust that I have become very hesitent to provide. Political ideas that violate natural base ingredients of human nature, imo must fall and falter sooner or later - always. Meaning it well, is not enough. Appealing to people to be kind and altruistic for the sake of these traits, is meaningless. Wishing that man would not be so, but would just be something different, is a waste of time and energy, and ignores the driving principle behind the model of evolution.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Against-Democracy-Jason-Brennan/dp/0691178496/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1551110364&sr=8-1&keywords=jason+brennan

And I just see there is a new book by him. I will check if it will be published in German as well:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/When-All-Else-Fails-Resistance/dp/0691181713/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1551110364&sr=8-2&keywords=jason+brennan

Why you have the right to resist unjust government The economist Albert O. Hirschman famously argued that citizens of democracies have only three possible responses to injustice or wrongdoing by their governments: we may leave, complain, or comply. But in When All Else Fails, Jason Brennan argues that there is a fourth option. When governments violate our rights, we may resist. We may even have a moral duty to do so. For centuries, almost everyone has believed that we must allow the government and its representatives to act without interference, no matter how they behave. We may complain, protest, sue, or vote officials out, but we can't fight back. But Brennan makes the case that we have no duty to allow the state or its agents to commit injustice. We have every right to react with acts of "uncivil disobedience." We may resist arrest for violation of unjust laws. We may disobey orders, sabotage government property, or reveal classified information. We may deceive ignorant, irrational, or malicious voters. We may even use force in self-defense or to defend others. The result is a provocative challenge to long-held beliefs about how citizens may respond when government officials behave unjustly or abuse their power.

Are they certain that Brennan authored this book - and not me...?