UK Politics Thread [Archive] - Page 24 - SUBSIM Radio Room Forums

STEED

12-26-16, 12:19 PM

Labour

Well we saw once again another challenge to Jeremy Corbyn within his own ranks that failed. JC is well and truly well rooted and is not going any where. The sad result of this Labour will loose the next general election which will probably see the old JC tree come crashing down.

Jeremy will be facing a By-Election in a Labour seat early next year and could loose to the Tories, Labour maybe a party of losers but the voters are the biggest losers as Labour as it stands is weak and shows no real sign of a party in waiting for government in these last days of 2016.

The Conservatives

Well we witness the downfall of old toffboy Cameron as the the country voted to leave the EU, Cameron did a runner leaving Article 50 flapping around in the wind. In comes Theresa May and cleans shop getting rid of the likes of George Osborne and his silly hair cut, I will not miss this vermin at all. Mrs May may get the better of old Corbyn at PMQ's but I feel this woman is flapping around ducking and diving. Finally please no more saying...Brexit means Brexit, get on with it!

LibDems

Well if cock a hoot Tim Farron strutting around like a peacock after over turning the former Tory seat Zac Goldsmith held is a sign the LibDems are bouncing back he needs a reality check. The LibDems are a long way away from the days they stood tall right up to the point former leader Clegg jumped into bed with Cameron and paid the price in 2015.

And finally..

UKIP
Wow what a year they have had with in fighting and leadership contests and a number of suppoters and party members leaving the party and rubbing the dirt in. And they are still here! Has Nigel Farage finally stepped down as leader? Well he may have in the dying days of 2016, UKIP is the new Punch and Judy show everyone likes...almost.

STEED

12-27-16, 08:46 AM

Over all for me another tight budget year and now I have to tighten up on that even more until I get a second part time job. But due to my health issues that is on hold for the moment, just hope I can get a second job later on. 2016 under the Tories has been rough for me and I have a feeling it will continual in to next year.

Jimbuna

12-27-16, 03:13 PM

I'll do the SNP entry...

http://i.imgur.com/1KtHyxD.jpg

MGR1

12-28-16, 05:43 AM

:haha:

Mike.

STEED

12-28-16, 08:56 AM

^Jim, that would cover many of the politician's today. :03: :haha:

NEWS

I see Obamba continual's to have a pop at this and that leaving Trump to pick up the pieces or not in the new year.

Jeremy Corbyn has hit back at Barack Obama after the outgoing US President suggested Labour under his leadership had disintegrated and lost touch with reality.http://news.sky.com/story/corbyn-hits-back-after-obama-suggests-labour-has-disintegrated-10709545

Mr Corbyn's spokesman says his policies are "common sense" Clearly the rest of us are barking mad and howling at the moon. :03:

Jimbuna

12-28-16, 09:24 AM

^ I note Farron grasps eagerly at any opportunity.

Meanwhile, Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron mocked Mr Corbyn over the US President's comments, calling them a "wake up call" for Labour.

He said: "Since the General Election, Labour have written the textbook on how to make a divided and divisive government look half competent."

STEED

12-29-16, 09:53 AM

^ I note Farron grasps eagerly at any opportunity.

Little Tim is just a peacock to busy showing off and doing nothing to fix his own busted party.

Jimbuna

12-29-16, 10:15 AM

Little Tim is just a peacock to busy showing off and doing nothing to fix his own busted party.

Yeah, when I way up the opposition in Parliament I feel saddened that the Tories have probably ever had it so good.

Nothing wrong with an effective opposition to keep the government on its toes.

STEED

12-29-16, 10:25 AM

Yeah, when I way up the opposition in Parliament I feel saddened that the Tories have probably ever had it so good.

Nothing wrong with an effective opposition to keep the government on its toes.

Spot on, the Tories had a good 2016 laughing at the silly Labour and LibDem opposition. Only the SNP seems to got under their skin from time to time, all nice and dandy for Scotland but no good for England.

Jimbuna

12-30-16, 07:23 AM

Downing Street are now being publicly critical of recent comments made by John Kerry regarding Israel.

Obviously the current US government will soon cease to exist but why didn't the UK exercise the veto option?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38464800

MGR1

12-30-16, 02:40 PM

UK foreign policy in the area has had a tendency to favour the Arab side of the issue and has done for decades. Quite a few of the local rulers or princelings have been to Sandhurst, King Abdullah of Jordan and Sultan Qaboos of Oman being two of the most notable:

Sandhurst's sheikhs: Why do so many Gulf royals receive military training in the UK? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28896860) courtesy of the BBC.

There's also an awful lot of Middle Eastern money in London.

Mike.:hmmm:

STEED

12-31-16, 08:24 AM

Time to look forward to 2017 -

Well I don't see much to look forward to as the Tories will continual to put the screws on and Lab/Libs have lost the plot. If both of these party's carry on like this all they are going to do is to look unelectable in the voters eyes.

I have doubts about Article 50 being triggered and so far the whole Brexit thing has been a mess and probably will continual to be. All eyes on the up coming By-election and local elections for some indication of the new year.

Jimbuna

12-31-16, 11:57 AM

http://i.imgur.com/PwlEVun.jpg

STEED

01-01-17, 06:53 AM

Here we go folks its 2017 and lets get stuck in...

A Tory official whose London home David Cameron stayed in after he left Downing Street this summer has been appointed CBE in the New Year Honours list. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38466990

Wow picking up gongs is easy, just suck up to a politician. :03:

Hello GCHQ and the snoopers charter. :O:

Jimbuna

01-01-17, 09:21 AM

March draws ever nearer...

Brexit: Theresa May urged to rule out interim deal

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38471582

STEED

01-01-17, 11:12 AM

March draws ever nearer...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38471582

Prompt deal, fat chance its been a no end pigs ear and its not March yet.

Jimbuna

01-01-17, 05:50 PM

Prompt deal, fat chance its been a no end pigs ear and its not March yet.

Oh ye of little faith :hmmm:

Catfish

01-02-17, 04:34 AM

Oh ye of little faith :hmmm:

" ... It also said the UK must withdraw from the single market, customs union and common farming and fisheries policies. ..."

You will need a lot of it :03:
And the question is whether having a national plan will be good enough for international requirements and established treaties that will now all fall away after decades of negotiations. I do not mean quality-wise, but e.g. regarding ecological and trade standards, and educational exchange, both ways.
I really wish all the best and trade will of course persist, and it is not even entirely altruistic, because what hurts one partner usually also hurts the rest in the long run :hmmm:

So, a Happy New Year and may the spirit be with you :up:

STEED

01-02-17, 06:26 AM

Oh ye of little faith :hmmm:

Today's politicians are a load of self righteous so and so's who are there to milk the system and the voters can go to the wall until they need our votes.

Len McCluskey: 'Awful' polling could derail Corbyn

Jeremy Corbyn could step down if Labour's fortunes do not improve before the next general election in 2020, one of his closest allies has suggested.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38487571

I just can not see that happening.

Jimbuna

01-02-17, 09:34 AM

" ... It also said the UK must withdraw from the single market, customs union and common farming and fisheries policies. ..."

You will need a lot of it :03:
And the question is whether having a national plan will be good enough for international requirements and established treaties that will now all fall away after decades of negotiations. I do not mean quality-wise, but e.g. regarding ecological and trade standards, and educational exchange, both ways.
I really wish all the best and trade will of course persist, and it is not even entirely altruistic, because what hurts one partner usually also hurts the rest in the long run :hmmm:

So, a Happy New Year and may the spirit be with you :up:

True that and only time will eventually tell :yep:

All the best to you and yours :up:

Jimbuna

01-02-17, 09:35 AM

Today's politicians are a load of self righteous so and so's who are there to milk the system and the voters can go to the wall until they need our votes.

Len McCluskey: 'Awful' polling could derail Corbyn

Jeremy Corbyn could step down if Labour's fortunes do not improve before the next general election in 2020, one of his closest allies has suggested.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38487571

I just can not see that happening.

Me neither.

STEED

01-03-17, 02:34 PM

Labour too weak to win election alone, Fabian Society says
Labour is "too weak" to win a general election alone and should consider working with rival parties, a left-of-centre think tank has said in a report.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38490343

Team up with little Tim? :hmmm:

Anyway moving on but staying on the Jeremy Corbyn agenda Nigel Farage was hosting a show last night on LBC and the first subject was old JC. What I found interesting is the number of divided Labour supporters ringing in. Some clearly off their trolley saying old JC will win the next general election and others who are fed up with JC.

First hour is worth a listen...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6GVCXtH5SE

Jimbuna

01-03-17, 05:36 PM

Enjoyed that.

STEED

01-04-17, 01:39 PM

Just for Oberon..:)

Cassetteboy remix the news: 2016 review specialhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dh_Og-MjWZI

STEED

01-06-17, 06:37 PM

https://media.giphy.com/media/EuDb3Jh6qDdmg/giphy.gif

Cancel the invasion of Russia, and tune in to Sky News.

PM to give first interview of 2017 to Sophy Ridge on Sunday
Theresa May will be grilled on Brexit and other topics as she appears on Sky News' new political show, debuting at 10am on Sunday.http://news.sky.com/story/pm-to-give-first-interview-of-2017-to-sophie-ridge-on-sunday-10718282

Jimbuna

01-07-17, 10:45 AM

British taxpayers' money will no longer be used to fund a five-member Ethiopian girl band, the government has said.
International Development Secretary Priti Patel announced a review of the funding last month after reports that pop group Yegna received £5.2m.

That some could have many alternative benefits for the UK homeless to name just one alternative :hmmm:

But the government said there are "more effective ways" to invest UK aid.

Absolutely.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38538631

STEED

01-08-17, 07:36 AM

^I wish I could have a sum of money like that. :03:

Watched Sophy Ridge on Sunday on SKY News and found her lacklustre, she needs to beef up her act and questions or these politicians will continual to run rings around her just like the PM did.

STEED

01-08-17, 07:51 AM

Will Monday see old JC come out fighting in the NHS debate or sent back to the naughty step. If he fails to show any kind of holding his ground and punching back with hard hitting questions and statements then he may as well forget to new make over.

Jimbuna

01-08-17, 10:41 AM

Nicola Sturgeon has warned Theresa May that she is not "bluffing" on the promise of a second independence referendum if Scotland is "driven off a hard Brexit cliff".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38543547

Theresa May should respond by saying, "Neither am I, you will not be allowed one."

One problem being that kind of response would probably send quite a fews Scots into Sturgeons camp.

MGR1

01-08-17, 12:42 PM

There is some element of risk in that, but I also think that Sturgeon's played her hand out. She's stuck between what the party faithful want and what the electorate at large want. The two ain't the same.

There's been every indication via polling that:

1: Support for independence hasn't risen post Brexit vote.

2: A majority of Scot's do not want to be asked to vote in another referendum at this time.

It should be pretty obvious that if she wants to risk another indyref, she should wait until after the Brexit negotiations are complete that way the people of Scotland can make a more informed decision. However, she has to deal with the radical wing of the party, led by one Alexander Salmond. There are plenty of internal tensions within the SNP, they're just better at hiding them than the Tories and Labour are.

Mike.

MGR1

01-09-17, 11:01 AM

Sturgeon has now ruled out a vote during 2017:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-38560646

Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson calls for single market access:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38553851

Moving on, sometimes the contributer's on Reddit come out with something cogent:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/5mu9b9/do_you_see_the_union_maintaining_itself_in_the/?sort=new

[–]ShooblyGoobly (https://www.reddit.com/user/ShooblyGoobly) 1 point 6 hours ago
The union will last for at least another decade but considerable constitutional reform is required if it wants a future beyond that.
England is just too powerful. It's so big it gets anything it wants at the end of the day. If Scotland gets anything it wants it's either a coincidence that it's also to the benefit of England or, simply, a gift. To quote a Scot-Nat my friend on the matter:
"In the UK, Scotland sometimes gets what it voted for. If it were independent it'd always get what it voted for"
You can't really argue with that logic. It's actually pretty sound. At best Scotland can tip the balance in favour of one direction or another but that's simply saying "England is pretty much 50-50 on this so, Scotland, you can decide how it goes".
You mention Brexit and I see Scottish independence and Brexit being quite similar in some regards. If you claim to have voted to leave for constitutional reasons then you hated the idea that a larger country/group of countries could tell England what to do. In the EU parliament England is a minority. It can't always get its own way. It's a democratic system but it's not one England recognises as its interests can be shoved aside to please a larger group of people. It's damned annoying and that inevitable leads to the idea that if it left the union could get everything that it wants. Ironically these same people that voted leave also seem to be the ones most adamant that Scotland stay in the UK, that England is good for Scotland even if Scotland doesn't always get everything it voted for.

Very true - Brexiter's and SNP supporters have a lot in common. Sometimes they're actually one and the same.

Mike.

Jimbuna

01-10-17, 04:44 AM

Could we be witnessing the first signs of a 'crack' in the cabinet? :hmmm:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38568577

:O:

MGR1

01-10-17, 05:51 AM

O-ho. that's interesting - Aberdeen City Council leader opens London Stock Exchange:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-38568609

This is after ACC was awarded an Aa2 credit rating by Moody's:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-37600311

https://www.moodys.com/research/Moodys-assigns-Aa2-issuer-rating-to-Aberdeen-City-Council-outlook--PR_355968

And has already issued bonds on the stock market:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-37847671

So that's where they've been getting the extra funding for all their fancy projects from. They haven't exactly been trumpeting that to us plebs!

Mike.

STEED

01-10-17, 02:49 PM

No crust for Cameron. :haha:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-toast-crusts-cut-off-tory-party-conservative-mp-former-prime-minister-jake-berry-a7517606.html

Jimbuna

01-10-17, 03:48 PM

Quite frankly if Mr Cameron was capable of getting his own muesli then he would cut the crusts off his own toast...or, more likely, eat the crusts.

I suspect a little closer to the truth.

Oberon

01-10-17, 10:19 PM

Obviously scared of getting curly hair. :hmmm:

Although to be fair, I've always ate my crusts and I lost my curly hair...so... :hmmm:

Catfish

01-11-17, 02:27 AM

[...] Although to be fair, I've always ate my crusts and I lost my curly hair...so... :hmmm:

No details please ! :O:

Jimbuna

01-11-17, 08:49 AM

I think Jeremy would be well advised not to speak publicly on subject matter that brings his hypocrisy to the fore.

Jeremy Corbyn has set out plans to curb boardroom pay while seeming to back away from the idea of a maximum wage.

Labour's leader initially appeared to back ceilings on earnings, an idea one economist claimed was "lunatic", but later said it was hard to enforce.
A spokesman said Mr Corbyn had "misspoke" during a BBC interview in which he said he personally favoured a limit on maximum earnings.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38568116

STEED

01-13-17, 06:23 AM

So much for Jeremy Corbyn's fresh new start, first he backs down over the maximum wage idea and today another Labour MP is stepping down!

Labour MP Tristram Hunt is quitting Parliament triggering a by-election in his Stoke-on-Trent constituency.http://news.sky.com/politics

I see from the BBC News..

The former TV historian was elected to represent Stoke-on-Trent in 2010 and was re-elected in 2015 with a majority of 5,179. UKIP came second.

If old JC looses one will be bad if both this may trigger a third attempt to topple him from power. :hmmm:

Jimbuna

01-13-17, 10:52 AM

The good ones are leaving the sinking ship leaving the rats to fend for themselves.

Shouldn't be surprised if UKIP win Stole and the Tories take Copeland.

If that does come about Jeremy still won't budge.

Oberon

01-13-17, 12:00 PM

Death by multiple by-election? :hmmm:

STEED

01-14-17, 07:31 AM

I see old JC promises us all the land of milk and honey at his speech today. Same old rubbish same old slogans, don't get me wrong I'm not outright attacking him as I hear this rubbish from the other party's as well.

Moving on to our Hospitals and A+E crises first of all Mrs May you are talking utter claptrap about GP's surgery's. My one is open 7am to round 6:30pm and if you Mrs May think opening up at the weekend is going to take the strain off A+E you need to wake up.

The NHS mess is the fault of under funding for years by the Conservatives Labour and Liberals, you are all to blame so stop point scoring off each other and blaming everyone else and get this bloody mess sorted out now.

Moonlight

01-14-17, 09:15 AM

The NHS will get sorted out after the Tories have privatised it. :up:

Jimbuna

01-14-17, 10:03 AM

Former Welsh Lib Dem leader Lord Carlile quits party.

Now t\here is someone with an interesting background if anyone cares to check it out.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-38618448

STEED

01-14-17, 05:31 PM

Now t\here is someone with an interesting background if anyone cares to check it out.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-38618448

Nah...I leave that sort of thing to retired police officers like you jim. :03:

Jimbuna

01-15-17, 10:36 AM

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn welcomes by-election 'opportunity'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38629138

I think that in reality he is actually experiencing a few sleepless nights.

Asked if his Labour leadership was "toast" if the party did not hold on to seats in Copeland and Stoke-on-Trent Central, he said it was a chance to set out its policies on the NHS and Brexit.

He will cling on regardless because he and his Trotts now have total control over the national platform they have craved for too many years to remember.

Jimbuna

01-15-17, 10:42 AM

This article about British expats shows disparity in numbers of pensioners covered by the reciprocal healthcare agreements in the EU.

Quite worrying for them potentially.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/38534958

STEED

01-15-17, 11:57 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38629138

He will cling on regardless because he and his Trotts now have total control over the national platform they have craved for too many years to remember.

Well if those blockheads thinking controlling the Labour party and keeping it out of power by their own actions could very well have sealed Labour's fate to the history books. If Labour looses both By-elections and JC remains in power then clearly all is lost.

I want to see opposition to the Tories and Labour is the biggest party and so far it has been a total washout. As long as Jeremy (the film star) Corbyn and his corbanites rule to roost Labour is a dead duck. As for the LibDems and peacock Tim they are still lost in the woods. SNP only represents Scotland's interests and one MP each of UKIP and the Greens they have a long long way to go.

Prepare for 20 years of Tory government..

Catfish

01-15-17, 01:08 PM

STEED

01-15-17, 04:31 PM

No word about UK ambasssador Sir Ivan Rogers' stepping back already on january 3rd :hmmm:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/03/uk-ambassador-to-eu-quits-amid-brexit-row

Make Farage and Johnson the UK's representatives in the EU negotiations, let them prove their expertise so all outcome falls on those who initiated the mess. Do not let them run away :03:

Old Ivan was going to step down this November some what of a dull news story. And Farage is now on LBC Radio Mon-Thu 7-8pm. The Tories hate UKIP so they are not going to give him a job of any sort. As for Boris no idea.

Last Tuesday night show on Labour.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFXaE35cX-c

Brexit is old news now, its all about mad jezza and his corbanite followers. Two By-elections coming up and Labour has to defend the seats under threat from the Conservatives and UKIP.

Oberon

01-15-17, 07:05 PM

Do not let them run away :03:

Pfft, it's not as if they're going to have to deal with it anyway, they could do whatever they want and still have a six figure salary. :yeah:

Catfish

01-16-17, 03:34 AM

Old Ivan was going to step down this November some what of a dull news story. And Farage is now on LBC Radio Mon-Thu 7-8pm. The Tories hate UKIP so they are not going to give him a job of any sort. As for Boris no idea.

Last Tuesday night show on Labour.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFXaE35cX-c

Brexit is old news now, its all about mad jezza and his corbanite followers. Two By-elections coming up and Labour has to defend the seats under threat from the Conservatives and UKIP.

What's up in the media is not what is really going on, or important :yep:

Thanks Steed for an explanation, this has been all over the News here. But the real question is who will now do that job, the EU wonders why the UK cut off their best negotiator (who was a very hard and standfast when it came to UK's point of view in the EU) and the EU is clueless what to make of this, because clearly there is no other on the horizon and they wonder who will have a similar background knowledge to defend UK interests just of all at this time. It will be easier for the EU that way but they ask themselves just.. why?

Nigel Farage on the radio, have listened to some and while it's entertaining i'm not impressed. I guess some just need a soap box for their ego.

Jimbuna

01-16-17, 10:24 AM

^ If you're referring to Sir Ivan Rogers, he was scheduled to leave office in the coming month of November so it is probably better to have a negotiator who is going to be around from start to finish.

One burning question here in the UK is what were his motives/loyalties in such a sudden announcement and in sending a communication to the civil service which he would fully know would obviously be leaked to the public.

One word could sum it up for many Brits.....Quisling.

Catfish

01-16-17, 03:04 PM

^ It sure would for Farage.

Seems it is more of a clash between Civil Service and Downing street.

"Sir Ivan is said to be 100 per cent convinced that the leak came from Theresa May’s most senior aides, her joint chiefs of staff, Fiona Hill and Nick Timothy. They, the argument runs, had lost trust in him and wanted a fresh face. "

"Sir Ivan endured an uncomfortable time at the last EU summit in December after his confidential [!] advice to the government about Brexit potentially taking 10 years was leaked to the BBC. No ambassador relishes "becoming the story" in that way."

“There’s absolutely no evidence for that (edit: Rogers making his opinion public), and I’m afraid it’s a bit of a smear against Ivan Rogers,” Lord Ricketts said of the leak accusation. The information was, he told BBC Radio 4’s World at One, more likely to have been “leaked from the centre with a political motive”.

"The Prime Minister has already criticised Whitehall for being too willing to tune messages to what they think she wants to hear, claiming she wants them to perform their role of giving the ‘best possible advice’. She needs to put that into practice in who she appoints to take Rogers’ place, and in giving them the freedom and support to provide that advice."

"If the reports are true that he has been hounded out by hostile Brexiteers in government, it counts as a spectacular own goal."

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38498839
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-resignation-sir-ivan-rogers-theresa-may-tory-backlash-sir-tim-barrow-eu-ambassador-a7509951.html
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/04/senior-whitehall-civil-servants-consider-positions-brexit-tensions
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/what-rogers-resignation-says-about-civil-service-impartiality

Anyway it seems the new ambassador is suited if a bit pale (yet), but he seems not to be a "yes-man".

Jimbuna

01-17-17, 09:43 AM

I'm certainly not a Tory but I firmly believe she pitched this at the right level.

Theresa May has said the UK "cannot possibly" remain within the European single market, as staying in it would mean "not leaving the EU at all".
But the prime minister promised to push for the "freest possible trade" with European countries and to sign new deals with others around the world.
She also announced Parliament would get to vote on the final deal agreed between the UK and the EU.

Mrs May said there would not be a "blow-by-blow" account of negotiations, set to get under way after Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty is invoked by the end of March.
It was not her intention to "undermine" the EU or the single market, she added, but she warned against a "punitive" reaction to Brexit, as it would bring "calamitous self-harm for the countries of Europe and it would not be the act of a friend".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38641208

You could learn a lot from the above Jeremy but only if your puppeteers allow it.

MGR1

01-17-17, 12:07 PM

Sturgeon and the SNP's reaction is predictable (LINK (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38642213)), so I would expect another IndyRef attempt within the next two to three years, with or without Westminster's approval. Either it's given official sanction, or it goes through without and you end up a repeat of the current Catalonia vs Madrid situation. I could then see the Tories shutting down Holyrood and going for direct rule, though that runs the risk of killing the Union completely. If that did happen I would expect violence to start somewhere.

Either way, the Scottish economy is starting to tank due to all the uncertainty - Scottish business confidence is negative compared with that in England for one. Recruitment is down also.

Unlike what happened during the Brexit ref, and like what did happen during the 2014 Indyref, economic arguments will be centre stage. The SNP still haven't plugged all the holes in their White Paper proposals and they have to factor in at least 40% of their supporters voted for Brexit. Many I know are of the opinion that independence means independence, not being shackled to either Westminster or Brussels. Now that they've turned into Tartan Labour, in thrall to the Central Belt, they're also losing their old support base in the North East, potentially to the Tories.

On top of all that there's the Scottish budget proposals (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38587991) to get through Holyrood, taxation being a major part of any horsetrading due to the SNP not having a majority. Of the two parties most likely to do a deal, the Greens want complete revision of income tax and it's banding, with increases for higher earners, not very likely to be forthcoming from the Nats. The Lib Dems will settle for increased spending on education so I predict that the SNP budget will get through with either the Lib-Dems actively supporting it, or abstaining during the vote.

Mike.:hmmm:

Mr Quatro

01-17-17, 12:29 PM

I'm certainly not a Tory but I firmly believe she pitched this at the right level.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38641208

You could learn a lot from the above Jeremy but only if your puppeteers allow it.

I saw her speech this morning ... my respect for her went up a bunch. She seems very strong and her yea is yea and her nay is nay.

Oberon

01-17-17, 12:35 PM

Catfish

01-17-17, 01:49 PM

^^ yes looks like May is set for a "hard" brexit.
"Theresa May is ready to turn the UK into a low-tax, low-regulation haven after Brexit, her spokesperson confirmed today."
From all we are able to read over here it seems that May wants England to become a tax haven, instead of cranking on production.

Also here:
http://www.businessinsider.de/theresa-may-stands-ready-to-turn-britain-into-a-tax-haven-after-brexit-2017-1?r=UK&IR=T

Funny enough it is not the EU that kicks out England from the single market, but May now does it herself. Of course this is what the brexit is all about. Providing a tax haven for business means they will not pay much taxes, but where does the money for social services and maintenance come from then.. demand high taxes on foreign products? Serious price rises in England would be a direct consequence :hmmm:

^ Worker’s rights, such as paid holiday and maternity leave were also protected by the EU, could be eroded on withdrawing if big business has its say.

Oberon

01-17-17, 02:16 PM

^ Worker’s rights, such as paid holiday and maternity leave were also protected by the EU, could be eroded on withdrawing if big business has its say.

I'd be tempted to put money on it, but I think it would be better to put it under the mattress... :hmmm:

Skybird

01-17-17, 03:37 PM

A clear cut - if that is not what Brexit means: what does it mean then? Either you're in, or you're out. Seen this way, May is close to the matter, and honest.

German press still reacts with quite some angry arrogance, still angry for the British daring to put the wonderful and phantastic EU into doubt and not wanting to give up self-responsibility and sovereignty, but to even demand it back from foreign bureaucratic offices.

There are only two armies in the EU that are indeed war-capable and war-willing any time: France and - Britain. Also, these are the only two armies that have nuclear deterrances. Militarily, I see Britain as Europe's lead nation. Not France. Not Germany. Its Britain. We should not forget this in a time when Russia has opened a new kind of war against Europe, and Trump indicates that he expects the Europeans to take care for themselves.

I stick to what I predicted months ago: the Brexit, once reality, will see troubles and disadvantages for Britons in the short and medium term, but I see good chances for improvements beyond the current status quo in the long run. But that will need unconventional measures that will be hated by the EU (serves them right). And these measures are the more likely to be taken the cleaner the cut is. Therefore, I welcome May's position, if her speech is telling the truth about what she thinks.

Let nobody conclude by this post that I think it will become easy for Britain. It will not. But it has my sympathy, and my support, for I think the basic decision is the right one. I wish Germany would do the same and show the EU the middle finger. But this is hyper-morally socialist Germany, this is the GDR 2.0, so my wish will forever remain a fantasy only.

If May puts her trust into Trump'S promise for a quick trade deal, Trump is Trump and thus an completely unpredictable variable. Its dangerous to hold any expectations regarding Trump. And one thing is clear: if NATO wants to keep US power in its favour, than Europe will need to accept quite some disadvantageous deals with deal-maker Trump. Lesson from this to be learned for Britain is that Trump will not care for "special relations", if he sees no good deal for America in it. For him, America (and himself) goes first. Even if that means it is at the cost of Britain. May should never forget that.

P.S. Often ignored or overlooked: if May installs a new low tax regime as it was threatened recently, this will mean a confrontation with the G20 and the WTO as well, where Britain is member, and both organisations have certain expectations on avoiding dumping taxes. I cannot assess however to what degree these are legally binding, or just are a non-binding "code-of-gentlemen" (politics - gentlemen...?). Both organisations could become sideshows in Britain's clash with the EU (I think of the coming negotiations as a clash indeed).

Catfish

01-17-17, 04:13 PM

May only tries to threaten to get the best out of this brexit, that most and especially the younger people obviously did not want, maybe not even May. But she is now in charge, and has to do what the people seem to demand of her. As some say it would be better to deliver instead of campaigning.

And Skybird what the hell is so bad about the EU that England "has to leave"?
This is so ridiculous, are those 50 percent just bored by so much decades of prospering and peace?

Really i ask you, what is so bad that you throw away decades of treaties, and advantages gained by negotiating hard and long, to throw it all away now?
Securing the borders? The UK?? Centuries of colonial past, with millions of people moving to and from England, and now because of half a single digit percent of immigrants who cannot even cross the channel to get there? Get real, the immigration is almost over.

I still wait for the ruin of the european occident by means of "islam" and those baaaad foreigners. Islaaam lmao, are you any bader off than say two or three years ago, now? Did you have to sell your Mercedes, did Islaaam steal it? Or could it be it is your own decisison or fault you don't have one?
Did they take away your villa in the Toscana?

Envy? Patriotism? Yeah right. You can reason as much as you want, following your Cassandra crys we should be dead since at least ten years.

It was good as long it lasted, before racist demagogues like Nigel Farage became socially respected.
If Europe goes down it is because of those people, because of Berlusconi, LePen and those other all-the-rage nationalists in Poland, Hungary and Romania.

If England decides to lower its taxes to threaten others it can take a look at Ireland lowering their taxes back then with exactly this intention, and what England [I]and the EU had to do to bail them out. People forget quickly.
Whatever happens, the rest of Europe can now say farewell to a small and angry island, and we will see how it turns out. I would not bet my money on the EU failing, the future is in international science and trade, and not isolation and nationalism, and cannon boat diplomacy.

And if we fall back into that we deserve no better, and can die out without anyone shedding a tear about it.

[/rant] :arrgh!:

STEED

01-17-17, 05:25 PM

I'm not that interested what the PM said as that is always for the benefit of the party and media. Heard it all before in the past over this and that from former PM's and party's, as the old saying goes the proof is in the pudding. I will watch and see how this unfolds.

MGR1

01-17-17, 05:41 PM

That I agree with and I think many up here will of a like mind.

Anyway, latest from Holyrood - Scottish Labour and Green Party vote with the SNP in a bid to save Scotland's place within the single market: LINK (https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/politics/scottish-politics/350958/labour-backs-snp-in-bid-to-save-scotlands-place-in-single-market/). Scottish Conservatives and Lib-Dems vote against. 86 for, 36 against thus a clear majority for the pro-EU side.

Since the vote is a majority of MSP's it represents the opinion of the Scottish Parliament, not the SNP. I'd say that the Tories will expect this and have countermeasures in place.

Mike.:hmmm:

MGR1

01-17-17, 05:49 PM

Oops, nearly forgot this bit - Northern Ireland.

Who wants to lay odds that because free movement has to be maintained between NI and the Republic (Good Friday Agreement etc, etc) that there will be border controls between the Province and the rest of the UK?

I can see the UUP and especially the DUP being unhappy about that.:hmmm:

Mike.

Oberon

01-17-17, 08:40 PM

Norn Iron will need a leadership first. :oops: They seem to have accidentally broken it.

And I have to ask, primarily of Skybird, but also of others of the same mind. There's been a lot of talk about Russia and Putin trying to enforce his will upon Europe and the West, for what gains remains to be seen. Surely the dissolution of the EU, which is still a real risk if the coming elections see the likes of Le Pen and Wilders get majorities, will leave Europe in a much weaker position and open for Russia interference and exploitation?
The EU isn't perfect, it's a bureaucratic nightmare, but it is an organisation which bands together western and part of eastern Europe in both economy and defence. Now, we can't always count on NATO any more, not since the Yanks went and elected a man-child for President. We basically have to write America out of the picture for European defence affairs for the foreseeable future. Which means that Europe must project its own defence or be seen as ripe for exploitation by outside powers. The EU is the perfect vehicle for this, and I can't see how its destruction can bring any good to Europe in the short and even in the long term. There's no point Europe going back to the days of the early 20th century, each individual nation building up its own seperate economy and military, because we're all pathetic weaklings in comparison to America, Russia and China, heck, even India! Any one of those nations could kick Germany, France or Britain around the field like a football and there'd be nothing they could do about it. However, together, in a union, the European Union is one of the most powerful entities in the world. Economically, Militarily and Technologically there are few other nations that can challenge us. And we want to just throw that all away.
When you look at the demographics of the people that voted for Brexit, well...you see a clear trend towards Remain the younger the people are. It seems that people voted based on nostalgia, or a belief that Britain is stronger than it really is. I mean, sure, we do have a good hand to play, but we're playing it in a terrible game.
A couple of paragraphs ago I made a jibe at the Americans for electing a manchild...but their troubles will only last eight years maximum...Britains troubles are going to last a lot longer.

Skybird

01-18-17, 06:30 AM

No EU is better than a weak or too centralised planned-economy-EU. Just look at it. See how it erodes more and more, and how more and more people abandone it. It looses "hearts and minds", faster than I hoped it could be possible.

And more of that should be a plan for strong resistence ot Putin's Russia? China'S rolling economy challenges?

You have manouvered yourself into a corner there. And now you wonder what to do if you have no walls that cover your back. I say: get out of that damn corner which you never have allowed to manouver into in the first.

Of course, other factors increase these negative effects, namely the arrogance of the elites which more and more realise themselves as well how helpless and clueless they are in reality, and the ever growing debts and the inflation of paper money. It takes a fool to believe we have low inflation only, it takes a fool to beleieve there is low inflation if year for year an additional trillion of paper dollars and almost as much in additional paper Euros get added to the money pool. The mere fact that these things happen IS inflation. Its effects just hides in other aspects of the economic events. Negtive effects, of course.

Take away all that cultural paternalism of the EU, leave all that socialist spending frenzy out, leave peopel and states alone, return to what the EU of the 6 originally has been. More is not needed. More does not contain Russia or China or Erdoghanistan. Just an aid for economic cooperation - without replacing economic and financial competition. The Euro has made that impossible, thats why it is such a monstrous problem. Innovation cannot be planned by "elites". Planned economies never have functioned, and never will. Creativity needs freedom. Regulations can suffocate all this. There is too much regulation, way too much. Too different economies need different currencies to balance these differences.

And last but not least: if you endlessly continue with the horror show the EU now is, people will turn away at ever growing speed.

As I see it, with the end of 2016 the EU has to realise that it is not just in a crisis that needs to be "managed". It is in a desperate struggle for survival, and since I cannot see it that the elites are chnaging their petrified self-gloriousness, I full-heartly welcome this.

This EU can only deepen its weaknesses and internal problems. How that could be mistaken for a string EU able to compete with China and Russia, is beyond me.

And then, there are strong developements for growing totaliariansim and centrlaism and princple socialism in the EU. I will never accept any of these voluntarily. if this needs to allow even the breaking out of armed conflicts to destroy these developements, then so be it. "Democracy [which in modern time is nothing else but ochlocracy, means: socialism] is when two wolves and a lamb have a vote on whats up for lunch. Freedom it is when the lamb contest the vote and arms itself up the teeth."

I explained this many times. Why do you guys think people like me will change ourselves if only you ask the same questions again and again, every time as if it were the first time ever you ask it? Same question triggers same answer, as long as nothing fundamentally changes meanwhile.

This is more comparing to a broken record. Marx & Keynes and their Planned-Economy-Big Band playing evergreens from the past 100 years of socialist disasters. Well, my musical taste is way different.

Catfish

01-18-17, 07:50 AM

^ The sky is falling! :haha:

"No EU is better than [...]"

Than what? Than national "patriotic" leaders cooking their own soup trying to hold their own people under their thumb ignoring international standards, workers rights, trade, to be better off than their neighbours? Like in the first half of the last century?

"And more of that should be a plan for strong resistence ot Putin's Russia? China's rolling economy challenges?"

China's economy is already on the brink of breaking down. Maybe there will even be a war about resources in the south China sea at some point.
Resistance against Putin?
Where do you see invasion plans? I take it that armament industry needs him to tear money from their respective governments, but i square don't see any invasion plans, not in the baltic nor in Poland, and especially not with Russia's faltering economy. What i see is child's play and willy-waving by all, and the NATO is indeed becoming obsolete by the way it acts and reacts.

Do you remember the "Petersburger Dialog"? This has been so undermined and destroyed in fear of a serious european trade with Russia, that it had to be abandoned through transatlantic pressure, the US fearing their own precious sales waning in Europe with Russia becoming a serious trading partner.
There's always the hate, fear and patriotic card being played, why tf don't we just sit down with them and do trade if it is about peace and economy?
It is not of course, but this is not the fault of the EU. The fault of the EU is to let itself being led by the nose by their transatlantic 'partners'.

Do you really feel threatened by Russia, personally or nationally? Invasion of Germany? Does Poland fear that, really? Isn't it more like the good old nationalist card being played with Kaczinky and the National right party?

The arrogance of the elites, well you have me there. Trump meant a slap in the face for the self-contented conservatives, or the democrat's political correctness gone wild, and i could almost love him for that.
Only that he also belongs to the elite, he just acts like an elephant in a porcelain store and has obviously fun doing.
Those who were for brexit were not the "elite", if you do not count Farage to that. But the new brexit leaders do, with May at the helm. Those are not educated ordinary people, they are elite caste again caring for themselves first and foremost.

I could argue that the EU is not elitist at all, indeed all idiots that national governments want to get rid off, are being sent there :haha:

But the EU is socialist? Have you somehow inherited the american virus of National socialism= socialism=democracy and the moon is being made of green cheese? All you don't like is "left", from spiders to earth quakes?
And the EU "cultural paternalism" is not so bad when it comes to human rights as a requirement to become a member, by certain standards to be held up by all members, by reasonable loans, by affordable health care, by criticism against dictators, by helping each other in case of crisis, sharing science projects, students exchange, by sharing intelligence information internationally against terrorists and. so. on.

You think you can have that all without treaties and without being a member in an international community? Wash me but don't make me wet?

Yes, the EU is by far not perfect. But it is better than all we had before.
Oh, and the sky will not fall. See you here in ten years once more.

Jimbuna

01-18-17, 09:02 AM

Some truly great posts here, both detailed and accurate (depending on what side of the fence you're standing) but allow me in the most simplistic terms to explain how I see it.

Britain had a referendum and that went approximately 52% to 48% in favour of leaving.

Using the broadest of brush strokes I believe the two major factors in the vote outcome were the requirements of the British population to retake control of their borders and to have the age old right to create and be governed by their own laws.

There are more than ample examples of media involvement and hype out there regarding hard, soft or whatever kind of Brexit we will witness.

My main concern is the potential 'punishment' often made reference to toward the UK when she (as the PM has recently admitted ) leaves the Single Market. The threat of added tariffs/financial penalties etc.

The UK imports more from the EU than she exports and should said tariffs be imposed, a mirrored response would no doubt be the immediate result/consequence and I can't see BMW or Mercedes car workers (as an example) warming to Merkel for allowing this to happen. You could of course site a great many industries to the same test.

I truly believe that common sense will prevail in the end because neither side will benefit as a result and in addition, would only serve as further proof to those larger economic players in the world (Russia, China, America) just how poorly prepared western Europe are to defend themselves economically and possibly even militarily.

The UK has steadfastly maintained that her wish is to remain in close contact both economically and militarily with her friends and allies in Europe but that does not include membership of the union.

http://i.imgur.com/4PJtEp1.jpg

MGR1

01-18-17, 10:37 AM

Norn Iron will need a leadership first. :oops: They seem to have accidentally broken it.

Mainly due to the corruption and stupidity of the DUP's current leadership. Now that NI Secretary Brokenshire's called another election it's back to square one - barring a miracle for the SDLP and the Ulster Unionists, Sinn Fein and the Democratic Unionists will still be the two largest parties after any vote. Even though Brokenshire's said that NI's devolution settlement is the best way forward for the province there's still the prospect of a prolongued period of direct rule until SF and the DUP compromise. It depends on how long the leadership of the two parties can bear to be separated from the financial gravy train of Stormont.

Moving back to Scotland, there is a possibility that if the SNP's budget doesn't get through Holyrood it would also bring down the current devolved administration in Edinburgh. This would then trigger elections in Scotland too. Unlike NI, our lot do seem to be able to compromise, so it doesn't look too likely. At least for now.

Mike.

Oberon

01-18-17, 12:12 PM

Yes, the EU is by far not perfect. But it is better than all we had before.

Agreed, although it perhaps would have been better staying as the EEC.
Yes, the EU does need a major restructuring, and reorganisation. I think the original plan was for some kind of United States of Europe but there's been a bit too much top down management.
What also hasn't helped has been the sheer amount of complete rubbish that has been propagated by anti-EU groups over the years which the public has latched on to. For example, people in the UK might cite to you the whole banana issue, that the EU has made a law about how bendy a banana can be.
The truth is more complicated than the Daily Express would have you believe and is actually designed to improve the quality of banana that the general public receives.
http://www.europarl.org.uk/en/media/euromyths/bendybananas.html

Take a look at some of the hyperbole cited in this Guardian article:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/23/10-best-euro-myths-from-custard-creams-to-condoms

And the sheer amount of times the Daily Express comes up in this link:
http://www.europarl.org.uk/en/media/euromyths.html

There has been wave upon wave of negative press about the EU, in this country at least, for decades and it has poisoned the mindset of people I think.

Still, we made our bed and now we'll have to sleep in it I guess. Not that the amount of people in the nation in favour of a hard Brexit is particularly high. :06:

STEED

01-18-17, 12:16 PM

I truly believe that common sense will prevail in the end

I agree jim, there is far too much BS on the Internet and media put around by who ever is standing on the stay in and leave the EU. I keep telling people politicians are a right royal pain in the backside but don't get whipped up by the BS on the Internet and mass media which is making them focus on that. Stuff that and get your focus on your MP and government of the day.

Moving on to PMQ's

I have noticed old JC can deliver a blow but he always fluffs up his follow up allowing PM May to rally from his blow and come out punching all the way resulting in a knock out every week. JC is weak bloody minded numskull that just can not see he and his loony lot have wrecked the Labour party.

STEED

01-18-17, 07:57 PM

David Cameron and George Osborne cash in with big-money Davos visit
The former prime minister and chancellor are understood to be charging fees "in the high five figures" for private speeches.

http://news.sky.com/story/david-cameron-and-george-osborne-cash-in-with-big-money-davos-visit-10732792

A leopard may be able to change its spots but a pig only goes on to be a fat cat pig. :03:

Jimbuna

01-19-17, 09:30 AM

I agree jim, there is far too much BS on the Internet and media put around by who ever is standing on the stay in and leave the EU. I keep telling people politicians are a right royal pain in the backside but don't get whipped up by the BS on the Internet and mass media which is making them focus on that. Stuff that and get your focus on your MP and government of the day.

Moving on to PMQ's

I have noticed old JC can deliver a blow but he always fluffs up his follow up allowing PM May to rally from his blow and come out punching all the way resulting in a knock out every week. JC is weak bloody minded numskull that just can not see he and his loony lot have wrecked the Labour party.

'It's called leadership, he should try it'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/c/uk-politics-38664392

Jimbuna

01-19-17, 09:33 AM

Probably the first time I've heard this guy speaking some political sense.

Juncker drops HUGE hint that EU will seek deal that keeps Britain IN the bloc post-Brexit

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/755807/Brexit-news-Jean-Claude-Juncker-Britain-stay-in-EU-transitional-deal

STEED

01-19-17, 05:27 PM

'It's called leadership, he should try it'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/c/uk-politics-38664392

JC needs to read this...

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/514NOeMAxKL.jpg

Jimbuna

01-20-17, 09:13 AM

That's not fair....the guy is probably illiterate :)

Skybird

01-20-17, 11:51 AM

Probably the first time I've heard this guy speaking some political sense.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/755807/Brexit-news-Jean-Claude-Juncker-Britain-stay-in-EU-transitional-deal
I think too much is beeing red into that line Juncker gets quoted with. If you look soberly at it, he just included the possibility that Britain will not carry out Brexit at all - in which case the British MEP indeed would continue to be in the EU institutions and offices, since then nothing would have chnaged and Britain still would be full EU member.

Think of it, the EU is desperate. They want Britain to not leave at all cost, and want Britain to allow unregulated migration at all cost. Any special deal accepted for Britain - would set many other EU countries in the East on fire. And you know how hot an issue unregulated migration and unregulated freedom of movement already is.

The threat to establish a low-tax paradise in britain also has rung alarm bells in the EU headquarters. You can see that in the Germans' intense warnings that Britain "cannot afford that financially" (Schäuble). A new Cayman Island low tax regime - right on the other side of the channel? That is like nuclear missiles on Cuba just offshore Florida. :)

STEED

01-20-17, 05:32 PM

That's not fair....the guy is probably illiterate :)

:har: :har:

Skybird

01-21-17, 07:04 AM

Jimbuna

01-21-17, 08:19 AM

Gunnar Heihnsohn's laconic - and true - comment on May's speech, and why Europe must choose between the German way and the British offer, and why the Brits have more to offer than Germany and France together.

IN GERMAN. Sorry. You can try bot-translations, but you know what that means.

LINK - Germany wants to punish, Britain smiles (http://www.achgut.com/artikel/deutschland_will_strafen_england_laechelt)

I can only point back to :

The UK imports more from the EU than she exports and should said tariffs be imposed, a mirrored response would no doubt be the immediate result/consequence and I can't see BMW or Mercedes car workers (as an example) warming to Merkel for allowing this to happen. You could of course site a great many industries to the same test.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2458963&postcount=5831

MGR1

01-21-17, 08:23 AM

(Scotland) North-east fishing fleet to sail the Thames in Brexit protest:

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/business/north-of-scotland/1145729/flotilla-mkii/

(UK as a whole) Theresa May 'betrays fishermen by using them as bargaining chip in EU Brexit negotiations'

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/755516/Theresa-May-Brexit-Ukip-Mike-Hookem-European-Union-fishing-quota-Article-50

Sheep producers voice fears over ‘hard’ Brexit:

http://www.fwi.co.uk/news/sheep-producers-voice-fears-hard-brexit.htm

I guess it depends on which industries the Tories deem to be expendable. It does appear the both the fishing and farming communities in the UK voted for Brexit in good faith and are now faced with some very unpalatable choices.

Farming - relied on cheap EU labour plus EU subsidies.

Fishing - EU biggest export market plus relied on EU subsidies and fishing agreements.

That's the thing about trade deals - how do you make (or break) them without screwing over part of your own economy? Now that the UK has to compete on it's own in the world, are the farming and fishing industries up to it?

Mike.

MGR1

01-21-17, 08:33 AM

Ah, I forgot to add that for the Scottish fishing fleet, at least, "Scottish" is a bit of a misnomer - a fair chunk of the crews are Filipino with native skippers and senior hands. Due to the nature of what's happened to the industry many of the young men from the likes of Fraserburgh and Peterhead either leave the area completely after school or are so high on drugs that no-one wants them aboard ship. Fraserburgh has one of the worst drug addiction levels in Scotland.

Mike.

Jimbuna

01-21-17, 10:52 AM

Why am I not surprised? :hmmm:

Former chancellor George Osborne is to join the world's largest fund manager, BlackRock, as a part-time adviser.
He starts on 1 February, providing "perspectives on European politics and policy, Chinese economic reform, and trends..." BlackRock said.
Mr Osborne, whose salary was not disclosed, will remain an MP, but will not be allowed to lobby the government.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38696175

STEED

01-21-17, 01:15 PM

Farming - relied on cheap EU labour plus EU subsidies.

Well that problem will be filled by the unemployed, hows that for a prediction. :ping:

STEED

01-21-17, 01:19 PM

Why am I not surprised? :hmmm:

Mr Osborne, whose salary was not disclosed, will remain an MP, but will not be allowed to lobby the government.

What a load of BS, yea direct lobbing may be out but in direct lobbing you can bet your rump that will happen.

MGR1

01-21-17, 04:40 PM

Well that problem will be filled by the unemployed, hows that for a prediction. :ping:

That assumes the natives will actually be willing to give it a go. Some will, but more than a few won't I'd wager. It depends on how long it is before those particular roles are automated, anyway.

P.S. It might entertaining to try and lob Osbourne, just don't do your back in doing it though!

Mike.

STEED

01-22-17, 06:56 AM

That assumes the natives will actually be willing to give it a go. Some will, but more than a few won't I'd wager. It depends on how long it is before those particular roles are automated, anyway.

P.S. It might entertaining to try and lob Osbourne, just don't do your back in doing it though!

Mike.

I would not be surprised if these summer jobs will be done by the unemployed as the rules are even more tighter now when I was claiming a few years ago and that was bad enough. Not sure if this would be green lighted in Scotland.

Jimbuna

01-22-17, 08:46 AM

Don't do as I do but rather as what I say.

Dozens of Labour MPs might be prepared to go against the party's leadership if there is a vote on starting the Brexit process.
Jeremy Corbyn has said all his MPs will be told to approve the triggering of Article 50 because they should accept the result of last year's referendum.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38689400

ikalugin

01-22-17, 08:55 AM

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/no-10-covered-up-trident-missile-fiasco-hch3shsrn

Jimbuna

01-22-17, 09:34 AM

Theresa May says she has "absolute faith" in the UK's nuclear weapons system despite reports that an unarmed missile went off course during a test.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38708823

Oberon

01-22-17, 09:51 AM

Theresa May says she has "absolute faith" in the UK's nuclear weapons system despite reports that an unarmed missile went off course during a test.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38708823

Apparently the SLBM curved off towards the US.

Wonder if it knows something we don't.... :hmmm:

Jimbuna

01-22-17, 10:03 AM

Apparently the SLBM curved off towards the US.

Wonder if it knows something we don't.... :hmmm:

No doubt the new POTUS will have a solid opinion on the matter :03:

ikalugin

01-22-17, 10:09 AM

Apparently the SLBM curved off towards the US.

Wonder if it knows something we don't.... :hmmm:
Russian hackers updating Trident-II to the Bumerang configuration, no doubt.

MGR1

01-22-17, 10:11 AM

I would not be surprised if these summer jobs will be done by the unemployed as the rules are even more tighter now when I was claiming a few years ago and that was bad enough. Not sure if this would be green lighted in Scotland.

Depends on what is devolved and what isn't and I think such a scheme, if it happened, would remain reserved to Westminster just to make sure the SNP couldn't throw a spanner in the works. I could see Glasgow erupting protest at such a proposal as "an affront to human dignity by encouraging slavery" led a certain Tommy Sheridan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Sheridan) and his cohorts, however. Nor do I think Scottish farmers would want unemployed, unwilling, Glaswegians working on their farms.:hmmm:

As for the missile test, Sturgeon's reaction is as expected and I can see the whinging coming out of Glasgow about Trident getting louder.

Mike.

ikalugin

01-22-17, 10:14 AM

Oberon

01-22-17, 10:20 AM

Are there any other options for the British strategic deterent?

:hmmm:

:yep:

https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~ar39/ryanfam/andrew/trebuchets/treb-dad.jpg

MGR1

01-22-17, 10:25 AM

Are there any other options for the British strategic deterent?

I mean from the materials I have read it appears that the delivery systems (Trident-II) and the warheads themselves (critical subassemblies, even in the physics package) appear to be US made.

France. Assuming BoJo can be persuaded to keep his gob shut.

The warheads are made in the UK, but as you wrote, certain parts are dependant on the US. That's why I think good relations with Trump are needed - of all US Presidents I could see him blocking any tech transfer between the UK and US. It also gives the US enormous leverage over the UK and, again, I could see Trump using that to the US's advantage.

The UK could do everything by itself but it would be cost prohibitive.

Mike.

STEED

01-22-17, 12:11 PM

Will you all calm down please, after all it was one of Jeremy Corbyn SLBM warhead. At worst it would have dispersed hundreds of leaflets urging American's to join the Labour party and get a free I love Jeremy Corbyn T-Shirt. :DL

Mr Quatro

01-22-17, 12:21 PM

Trump's first visitor :yep:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/01/22/uk-may-to-discuss-trade-nato-in-white-house-with-trump.html

LONDON – British Prime Minister Theresa May says she will discuss free trade and the importance of the NATO military alliance when she meets President Donald Trump in Washington on Friday.

May is set to become the first foreign leader to meet with the new president. She said Sunday she looks forward to expanding the "special relationship" between the U.S. and Britain.

STEED

01-22-17, 12:29 PM

Trump's first visitor :yep:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/01/22/uk-may-to-discuss-trade-nato-in-white-house-with-trump.html

Better not wear her famours shoes...

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/03/04/0E38824900000578-2978868-image-a-81_1425467267001.jpg

Old Trump might pinch her bum. :03:

ikalugin

01-22-17, 12:59 PM

France. Assuming BoJo can be persuaded to keep his gob shut.

The warheads are made in the UK, but as you wrote, certain parts are dependant on the US. That's why I think good relations with Trump are needed - of all US Presidents I could see him blocking any tech transfer between the UK and US. It also gives the US enormous leverage over the UK and, again, I could see Trump using that to the US's advantage.

The UK could do everything by itself but it would be cost prohibitive.

Mike.
Won't UK benefit from related technologies, for example space booster technologies?

MGR1

01-22-17, 02:12 PM

No doubt it would but I remain sceptical about the UK political establishment's economic strategies. Primarily whether or not they have the vision to actually think big in terms of industry and manufacturing. Since the 80's service industries have been king and much of the UK industrial base has atrophied and shrunk.

A case in point being the oil industry - there's a lot of skilled engineering involved and Aberdeen has the expertise to capitalise on that but hasn't received much support beyond tax cuts. What's needed is investment and lots of it before the skills base here dissipates and is lost to the UK.

A modern hi-tech economy also needs skilled workers and that is something the education systems (all four of them) in the UK haven't been producing in sufficient numbers. Those that they do produce often go abroad so they can further their careers and receive better remuneration packages. Again investment is needed as well as a coherent plan which can be implemented UK wide. Difficult as the education systems in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales are now subject to devolved control, although the first two were never integrated with the English system in the first place.

Since the current noises coming out of the Tory party seem to favour the UK apeing Singapore I'm not holding out much hope.

Mike.

ikalugin

01-23-17, 03:58 AM

MGR1

01-23-17, 11:01 AM

I see. How about alternative imported delivery systems like land based ICBMs or strategic bombers?

On a separate topic, what is happening with the British Army. I heard from a RN officer that Army is the service that receives most of the funding, how come it could only form a single combat mechanized division?

(on the topic of Army http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/shrunken-army-fears-russia-could-destroy-it-in-an-afternoon-3jlbwgq3t )

Land based ICBM's are a no-no due to the UK's (i.e. England's) population density and general geologic unsuitability for missile silos. Emplacing such installations were studied for the Blue Streak MRBM (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Streak_(missile)) system and rejected for the reason's I've written. Mobile systems as used in Russia are possible but I would think that they'd also be viewed unfavourably by the UK public - see the NIMBY (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIMBY) effect. Ironically Scotland would be the best place to deploy such systems but the infrastructure in the Scottish highlands is execrable and it's highly doubtfull it would be able to cope with equipment that sort of size. It's also politically impossible due to devolution and the SNP administration at Holyrood. The SNP being anti-nuclear-weapons-based-in-Scotland. See the running sore of Faslane Naval Base and the attendant storage facilities at Coulport.

As for long range strategic bombers, again a no-no. Too easily shot down by modern air defence systems, something which also affects cruise missiles.

You would also have to factor in inter-service rivalry. Since the Royal Navy provides the deterrent force it wouldn't be happy at losing both the prestige and funding that goes with it to either the RAF or the Army.

As for your second question there has been a lot of press here at how the MOD is incredibly inefficient at managing defence contracts and the spending that goes with them. They are notorious amongst those in-the-know for continually changing specifications after any equipment requirement is issued, wasting both time and money. On the whole it comes across as amaturish and poorly co-ordinated leading to cost overruns and bad equipment choices. You also have to factor in the effects of over a decade of armed intervention in the middle east and it's effects on recruitment and retention (the armed forces as a whole are suffering from manpower shortages) as well as poor decisions by the political leadership of the UK.

Moving back to the UK's industrial strategy, Theresa May has promised to take action for British industry: LINK (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38713327).

The government will be "stepping up to a new, active role", Mrs May said.
She will launch the new strategy at her first regional cabinet meeting, to be held in the north-west of England.
Broadband, transport and energy are highlighted in a bid to "align central government infrastructure investment with local growth priorities".
The 10-point plan involves:

Investing in science, research and innovation
Developing skills
Upgrading infrastructure
Supporting business to start and grow
Improving government procurement
Encouraging trade and inward investment
Delivering affordable energy and clean growth
Cultivating world-leading sectors
Driving growth across the whole country
Creating the right institutions to bring together sectors and places

BBC Scotland economics editor Douglas Fraser's analysis: Picking winners or backing losers? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-38717900)

As I alluded to earlier, any plan such as this could come unstuck due to the devolution settlements for Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales:

Two Whitehall ministers are in Scotland to emphasise that, although much of this is devolved, it still applies north of the border.
Whitehall does not control the skills agenda or infrastructure priorities in Scotland.
What it can do is influence investment through the tax system. It already does so with targeted tax breaks for the film industry and digital games, and it has done so for 40 years of North Sea oil and gas.
Energy looks like being a key sector for Scotland in this industrial policy - both hydrocarbons and renewable. And already, there's a tension between the strategic role of investing in green power and the government preference for pulling back on the cross-subsidies that help its development.
The ministers' visits emphasise skills in the hospitality sector (which has depended on EU migrant workers' skills), Scotland's university science base (likewise), and a highly successful leather exporting business in Renfrewshire.
The new economy? Hardly. Trading in leather goes a long way back, somewhere close to the stone age.
We'll see what comes of it.

Mike.:hmmm:

Jimbuna

01-23-17, 11:34 AM

Saw this live on tv a couple of hours ago so best I don't fully disclose my viewpoint in public but post in memory of all those who lost their lives during the 'troubles'.

Sinn Féin has announced that Michelle O'Neill is to replace Martin McGuinness as its leader north of the border.

She paid a warm tribute to Mr McGuinness and said she was "following in the footsteps of a political giant".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-38715524

STEED

01-23-17, 02:35 PM

^Sinn Féin is a bitter pill I don't like but as long as the peace remains like everyone else I will for now put up with the bitter taste.

Theresa May refuses to answer questions on Trident 'misfire'http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38711200

This happen on the former PM David Cameron's watch why don't you ask him?

MGR1

01-24-17, 08:33 AM

Brexit: Supreme Court says Parliament must give Article 50 go-ahead:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38720320

I did like this from Reddit:

[–]seoyoyo (https://www.reddit.com/user/seoyoyo) [score hidden] an hour ago
Article 50 will happen but instead of the government holding the reins it will be decided by lobbyists and big business. Both sides have now officially failed.

Like most things there's a grain of truth, but we will have to wait and see.

As for migration, an article from the Independant: Two countries have already told the UK they must relax immigration rules if they want free trade:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-australia-india-tell-uk-relax-immigration-rules-free-trade-deal-eu-visa-restrictions-a7540036.html?cmpid=facebook-post

In short, Australia and India, though for different purposes. I believe New Zealand has indicated something similar.

Mike.:hmmm:

Jimbuna

01-24-17, 08:54 AM

The main point for me is that whatever system the UK uses, they will have the control they never had prior to leaving the EU.

This brought about a wry smile I must admit: "Britain’s £4bn curry industry, which campaigned for the UK to leave the EU, has already said it felt “betrayed” by Ms May’s post-Brexit immigration crackdown."

Catfish

01-24-17, 09:59 AM

I heard that the UK joined the EU (after decades of being blocked by France) for reasons of immigration from the former colonies, which was "going out of hand" (?) in the 1960ies to 80ties, offering the UK a backdoor for having an accepted law to turn them away.
During being in the EU, the UK had also special treaties deviating from other EU countries, guaranteeing border control. Now what will exactly change? :hmmm:

Skybird

01-24-17, 11:54 AM

It ain't no Brexit till the prime minister sings.

Oberon

01-24-17, 12:00 PM

The devolved parliaments don't get a say in an action that the United Kingdom of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland will be undertaking.

Not sure I follow that logic... :hmmm:

MGR1

01-24-17, 12:19 PM

Brian Taylor's article on the matter - Brexit and parliamentary power:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38733195

..... today's Supreme Court ruling delineates precisely where formal, statutory power lies on the issue of reshaping Britain's relationship with the EU. Europe, as an issue, is reserved to Westminster along with foreign affairs more generally.From a political rather than legal/constitutional stand point it prevents the SNP, Scottish Greens, Scottish Lib Dems and (probably) Scottish Labour blocking Brexit via a vote at Holyrood. At the moment the only Scottish party that consents to Brexit for certainty are the Scottish Tories. The same applies to Cardiff (Plaid Cymru) and Stormont (Sinn Fein, the SDLP and probably the UUP).

Having written that, the only truly Scottish political parties are the SNP and the Greens. The other three are no more than branches affiliated to the main UK parties, not independant entities in their own right.

Mike.

bertieck476

01-24-17, 02:00 PM

Catfish

01-24-17, 02:13 PM

MGR1

01-24-17, 06:37 PM

Wasn't there a law already that anyone who wants to stay in the UK has to earn 35,000 £ a year flat, and can be instantly be sent back if not?

Also at least while entering Great Britain you have to show passport and all, being asked what you intend to do etc., it is not like on the continent where you e.g. drive from France into Germany without even noticing.

The minimum earning level is something that is enforced for non-EU migration, but doesn't seem to apply to people coming from within the EU.

As for the SNP and it's shenanigans, I wrote this in the Brexit thread:

There's also a little matter of national identity and how you view the UK:

Is it one single nation, or is it four nations working together?

Mike.

Catfish

01-25-17, 03:35 AM

[...] The minimum earning level is something that is enforced for non-EU migration, but doesn't seem to apply to people coming from within the EU. [...]

Thanks for the explanation, I just realize what i do not understand.. :hmmm:

1. so immigrants coming from other places than the EU to the UK, can be denied access already.
2. People from the EU cannot be turned away?
3. People coming directly from Syriah can be denied, but if said Syrians come via e.g. France or Germany (or the EU) they are allowed to enter and cannot be turned away? I somehow doubt that, but..
4. Is there a difference if said Syrians come to Scotland/Ireland/Wales instead of England?

What is then the difference between old border control and new border control? Does the right to deny access then additionally apply to native EU citizens?

bertieck476

01-25-17, 03:53 AM

Only actual EU residents can freely come and go. Those from outside EU, syrians etc as you suggest coming through from other EU countries cannot freely enter the uk as they are stopped at the channel.
We dont know what form any new border control will take regarding EU citizens, but we assume it will be more strict than the open border we have now, the end result will be a negotiation.
Everyone accepts that we need some immigration and that can be good, we need people with skills we dont need unskilled immigration who are exploited and take very low paid work only to become a burden to society requiring housing and benefits, because for a multitude of reasons social care, housing, schooling, gp's and the list goes on are all under huge pressure already.
As for your final point, no, its the same as we are united kingdom.
As an aside, wales voted to leave as well, not just england

Catfish

01-25-17, 04:20 AM

Thanks, so essentially there are already laws dealing with immigrants who are non-EU members.
So the wild hords Farage showed on his threat-posters are indeed meant to be EU residents :haha:

Regarding "unskilled immigrants" and who needs them – of course, but then a) you take away the best heads from the countries who need them and b) what about fugitives going back if the war has ended. I guess every civilized country will allow them an at least temporary stay.

As for your final point, no, its the same as we are united kingdom.
As an aside, wales voted to leave as well, not just england

Yes, of course. "And if England and Wales voted for leaving, the UK could let them go." Because, if Scotland had left the UK in 2014, then Scotland would automatically have been ejected from the EU. It does not work the other way round, obviously?

Why don’t England and Wales leave the United Kingdom? They would be automatically ejected from the EU and Scotland and Northern Ireland would then be the constituent parts of the United Kingdom, which would remain in the EU. :03:

ikalugin

01-25-17, 04:27 AM

What is then the difference between old border control and new border control?
I once got into the UK without passing passport check - b/c in Heathrow I transfered from international to domestic flights without the said check.

More on the tridents story:
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/us-urged-britain-to-keep-trident-blunder-secret-knqkbdt5b

MGR1

01-25-17, 11:59 AM

Thanks, so essentially there are already laws dealing with immigrants who are non-EU members.
So the wild hords Farage showed on his threat-posters are indeed meant to be EU residents :haha:

Regarding "unskilled immigrants" and who needs them – of course, but then a) you take away the best heads from the countries who need them and b) what about fugitives going back if the war has ended. I guess every civilized country will allow them an at least temporary stay.

Yes, of course. "And if England and Wales voted for leaving, the UK could let them go." Because, if Scotland had left the UK in 2014, then Scotland would automatically have been ejected from the EU. It does not work the other way round, obviously?

Why don’t England and Wales leave the United Kingdom? They would be automatically ejected from the EU and Scotland and Northern Ireland would then be the constituent parts of the United Kingdom, which would remain in the EU. :03:

Well, it's not as if Scotland or Northern Ireland could service the UK national debt......

Besides there's only one political party in the UK that advocates English independence - the English Democrat Party (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Democrats) and their not exactly mainstream.

Mike.

STEED

01-25-17, 02:40 PM

Oberon

01-25-17, 03:48 PM

I am now convinced the UK will remain in the EU because the pro EU lot are going to tie Brexit up in knots of red tape for years and those who voted leave will get sick and tired of it all and say sod it lets just stay all this pain in the rear end is driving us nuts.

I have lost all interest in Brexit and from this point on have no interest in this one any more, any other UK politics is find by me but not Brexit that one is now off my menu.

And that is my final word on Brexit. :arrgh!:

Don't get your knick-knocks in a twist old boy, this was never going to be a fast and easy process, you don't fully integrate yourself economically into a system and then rip it out in a day. :03:
It'll happen, there's too much for those in power to lose if it doesn't, but it won't be quick and it won't be pleasant.

STEED

01-25-17, 03:52 PM

I missed PMQ's did old JC fluff it again?

bertieck476

01-25-17, 04:03 PM

I missed PMQ's did old JC fluff it again?

He only wished to pass on condolences from the house to a northern ireland policeman who had been shot, only to learn that he was alive.

STEED

01-25-17, 04:09 PM

He only wished to pass on condolences from the house to a northern ireland policeman who had been shot, only to learn that he was alive.

Over to you Del Boy..

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder391/500x/65807391.jpg

Jimbuna

01-26-17, 08:47 AM

And that is my final word on Brexit. :arrgh!:

QFT :)

MGR1

01-26-17, 01:57 PM

Tam Dalyell has died:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-38764220

One of the few Scottish Labour politicians who was vehemently opposed to any form of devolution.

84's a good run.

Mike.

Jimbuna

01-27-17, 08:19 AM

An honourable and tenacious politician if ever there was one.

RIP Sir

Jimbuna

01-27-17, 09:24 AM

Prime Minister Theresa May has laid a wreath at Arlington National Cemetery ahead of talks with US President Donald Trump at the White House in Washington.
She visited the tomb of the unknown soldier at the cemetery in Virginia.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38766781

~SALUTE~

Mr Quatro

01-27-17, 10:47 AM

You guys are tough ... calling Prime Minister May a poodle :D

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/01/27/how-the-british-media-is-covering-theresa-mays-visit-to-donald-trumps-america/?utm_term=.5e0d1c28b1a2

Asked how she could avoid becoming the poodle of a U.S. president — a charge often levelled against Tony Blair in his relationship with George W Bush — May said: “I’m going to be very clear in everything we do. I believe the special relationship is important to us; it’s important more widely across Europe and the world. But I will also be very clear in the decisions I take and the conversations I have about U.K. interests.”

Oberon

01-27-17, 12:16 PM

Well, we'll see if the boot fits. Wouldn't be a smart move hitching up to the US right now though....too much of a liability.

Catfish

01-27-17, 01:16 PM

"England leading the world, together with the US".
Who will be greater? :rolleyes:

Oberon

01-27-17, 01:18 PM

"England leading the world, together with the US".
Who will be greater? :rolleyes:

Ach nee... :help:

Catfish

01-27-17, 03:17 PM

Ach nee... :help:

Doch.. (http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/26/politics/theresa-may-republican-retreat-visit-speech/index.html)

Oberon

01-27-17, 04:19 PM

Doch.. (http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/26/politics/theresa-may-republican-retreat-visit-speech/index.html)

Wunderbar...

STEED

01-27-17, 05:49 PM

Doch.. (http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/26/politics/theresa-may-republican-retreat-visit-speech/index.html)

Theresa May to tell Republicans US, UK can lead the world

Have to knock out Russia and China first...

WW3? :o

Well Trump did say its a angry world.

MGR1

01-28-17, 12:18 PM

More on Tam Dalyell:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29367988

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38773566

Agree or disagree with him, you always knew exactly where you stood with him - something that you can't say about the politicos of today. I don't think we'll see someone like him at Westminster again.

Mike.

Jimbuna

01-29-17, 09:24 AM

Trumps latest executive order reaches far and wide....some politicians included I suspect.

MP Zahawi says Trump order banning him from US is 'demeaning and sad'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38787517

Oberon

01-29-17, 09:42 AM

The Mobot has been hit by it too:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3V9CumXUAAeG1M.jpg

Oberon

01-29-17, 09:46 AM

Also, in this weeks irony ore train:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3Vi8FJWYAE4Lui.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3Vi8FJWMAERtay.jpg

:har:

Skybird

01-29-17, 09:47 AM

The US is a sovereign, independent state, and nobody who does not hold US citizenship has any claim to make whether the people of this state and their institutions have to allow him in, or can ban him from entering.

This latest decree by Trump is far reahcing, I agree with Jimbuna on this, and it holds a lot of risk and potential for Trump seeing it exploding in his face due to legal resistence. But it is an issue that the American people alone and exclusively have to come to terms with - to decide whether they accept this course, or not. We foreigners shoud hold our mouth, I think. We have no claim that Americans must obey our wishes, demands and desires.

I think the same way about the possible implications for foreigners wanting to enter the UK after Brexit. If Britain does ban certain, or many, or all foreigners from working or living or visiting Britain in the future, then this is the Brits' natural right to decide so. Freedom and self-responsibility go hand in hand, you cannot have the one without the other. Its either having both, or none of the two.

A state or its citizens that must obey the demand of foreigners to let them enter and roam at will, is neither sovereign, nor independent.

The truth bites both ways. Of course Americans as well as Britons have to accept any consequences coming from their choices. It is not the duty of others to comepnsate them for their choices. So everybody is well-advised to make sure his people/nation can indeed afford what they choose.

Oberon

01-29-17, 09:54 AM

We can comment on whether we think it's a stupid idea though. :03: I mean, come on...

Jimbuna

01-29-17, 10:17 AM

True that Sky but one word immediately springs to mind....isolationism. I

I doubt that will be of any real eventual benefit to anyone.

Oberon

01-29-17, 11:16 AM

True that Sky but one word immediately springs to mind....isolationism. I

I doubt that will be of any real eventual benefit to anyone.

But it seems to be the growing trend now, Hard Brexit, Muslim Ban, everyone is pulling up the drawbridges and glaring at their neighbours.
It'll end in tears...and bloodshed. It always does.

MGR1

01-29-17, 11:46 AM

Sad but true.

Mike.:hmmm:

Skybird

01-29-17, 12:43 PM

True that Sky but one word immediately springs to mind....isolationism. I

I doubt that will be of any real eventual benefit to anyone.
The pendulum swings back from the current extreme - globalism - to the other. I must say that all in all globalism has done much more damage than good. In the third world, as well as in the first world. The social rifts it has created, are hard to even count out. And this I say despite having an eye of Germany - with the one economy in the world that depends more on globalism than any other economy out there, more than Japan, China or any other. But we have manouvered ourselves into a corner there, and the numbers are more and more dangerously hanginging and circling about our heads like Damocles' sword. When they start to rain down - and they will sooner or later -, they will simply slay us with their mere individual weight. For Germany, Trump's econiomic ideas are especially dangerous.

And Germany is the fiscal motor of this sick man named EU.

The distortions in social integrity of nations and cultures both in the first and third world, are monumental. And I do not see that the cure is in sight. More globalism to me reads like the recipe for pushing from "most likely a global disaster" to "guaranteed disaster, total and complete".

Add to this that so far nobody has a reaosnable, working formula for how to treat the more and more evidently emerging contradiction of a model that demands people to work for earning their living, and a working world that more and more does not need simple workers, simple jobs, and thus collides with the ned for work to make a living. This and the distribution war between old and young are pure dynamite, and it is set to blow our societies into pieces. That for exmaple in germany over 50% of the electorate are 50 years and older and all nations are practically bancrupt and dpeending on an economic model of endless delayed filing of insolvency, is additional oil spilled into the fire. When these bombs go up, I hope I will already be no longer around.

Its like Lupus, House would say: the body's immune system turns against the body and destroys its vitality slowly, its biological self-destruction. We do the same currently, we slowly destroy ourselves. With the best intention, like the immune system in case of Lupus.

Oberon

01-29-17, 12:53 PM

Is it globalism or capitalism which has created those rifts though Sky? Or is it globalism exacerbating capitalism, and or vice versa?

I'm certainly not sure that capitalism in its current state can survive the coming challenges, and don't get me wrong, I'm not going to advocate full force communism or something daft, but I think that we're going to need to develop a new system in order to cope with the shrinking of the world and the increase in automation, because short of a major event which destroys modern society neither of those are going away and our current economic and social structure emphasises the rapid development of both.

MGR1

01-30-17, 09:09 AM

Scottish independence poll: Yes: 43% (-1) No: 51% (+1) (via Panelbase / 20 - 26 Jan): https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/826028495226679298

With Don't Knows removed works out as Yes: 46% No: 54%. A slight increase on 2014. As usual with caveats, but so far polling in Scotland has been more accurate than in the UK as a whole.:hmmm:

Mike.

Catfish

01-31-17, 08:27 AM

Mrs May secures the multi billion pound fighter jet deal with Turkey, before molesting Erdoghan on the question of human rights:

May: “I'm proud that the UK stood with you on the 15 July last year in defence of democracy and now it is important that Turkey sustains that democracy by maintaining the rule of law and upholding its international human rights obligations as the government has undertaken to do.”

Soo proud [sic!] of what happened in Turkey.
Erdoghan's deal with DAESH/IS paying them to get cheap oil via his privately-owned company,
removing democracy and making himself the new Sultan,
letting DAESH kill kurdish civilians while observing that through a fence at a mile's distance and doing nothing,
while the kurdish Peshmerga soldiers fight against Daesh, in contrast to Turkey.

Pride? i think terms like pride, patriotism and protecting borders have been used inflationary lately, and have no meaning any more.

I guess after the EU did not let Erdoghan join the EU because it would not sacrifice its basic principles, Mrs May saw her chance after the Brexit. All the best with your new friend :03:
At least we now know how Brexit will be financed. "Respect".

[/rant]

I know i should not write that here, but seeing the picture with May and Erdoghan makes me want to vomit.

Jimbuna

01-31-17, 10:32 AM

Jimbuna

01-31-17, 10:34 AM

bertieck476

01-31-17, 01:15 PM

@Catfish, the rest of the EU are happy to do a deal with turkey to try and stop totally uncontrolled mass migration into europe.

Skybird

01-31-17, 01:40 PM

Turkish officers stationed with NATO headquarters and offices in Germany, have asked for asylum days ago. Asylum in Germany.

Get popcorn out for better enjoying Merkel's egg-dance following now - as almost always. DITIB espionage in Germany? No problem for her. Thousands of journalists, lawers, judges in prison in Turkey, more than in any other Muslim country? No problem for her. Turkish secret service hunting Turkish critics hiding in Germany? No word on that either.

If Merkel can treat this de facto tyrant like a good friend - why should Britain's May not do the same while fighting for economic survival of post-Brexit Britain? Is Britain's need less valid for acting distasteful and immorally than Germany's mass migration naivety and stupid deal with the Turkish devil? Merkel acted stupidly, there is no excuse for her naivety. May does what she thinks she economically must.

I dont like the idea of Eurofighters going to Turkey either, Catfish. But it cannot be us Germans lecturing the Brits on this one issue. Even less so when considering how much military stuff we have delivered them ourselves, knowing that they would not obey our - naive - demand that these weapons shall not be used against the Kurds.

NATO must break ties with Turkey and kick it out, that is what must be done. But it will not be done, I do not see that coming any time soon. We bring ourselves into this messy position, and so we deserve the outcome.

Jimbuna

01-31-17, 02:01 PM

^Far better put than I but we'll see what if anything occurs in two days time.

Oberon

01-31-17, 02:30 PM

Greece gave asylum to the officers who fled there after the 'coup', needless to say Erdo threw his toys out of the pram.

Catfish

01-31-17, 02:39 PM

Germany has of course a history of selling arms worldwide, and a lot of it to Turkey in the past decades, though it is of course not alone. As long as Turkey was on Mustafa Kemal's way, and a dependable NATO member.
But Germany has recently stopped various weapons deals with Turkey, together with Austria, as i might mention.
Which is – at this point in time – a good reaction to what Turkey is obviously becoming, under Erdoghan.

http://aranews.net/2016/11/german-arms-company-stops-supplying-weapons-nato-member-turkey

Erdoghan does not have the power to stop fugitives, nor are there so much fugitives anymore. It is almost over.
Regarding turkish officers asking for asylum in Germany, why not? As you probably know just of all Greece has refused to extradite turkish officers.

I hope Merkel tells E. to go to hell. Of course this will not happen.
Nice times when all try to appease the worst nation leaders for their personal advantage. Politics, lmao.

Jimbuna

01-31-17, 07:38 PM

Politicians....don't you just love em :hmmm:

Catfish

02-01-17, 05:52 AM

Politicians....don't you just love em :hmmm:

Oh YES! :yeah:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y174/penaeus/wtf_zpsu04snu08.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/penaeus/media/wtf_zpsu04snu08.jpg.html)

And what is worse, the visits of May and Merkel will be seen as support for Erdoghan's authoritarian course; this will directly influence the election campaign, with the out-of-democracy-election taking place in a few weeks.

No one should have visited Erdoghan after what happens in Turkey. Doing this now is so wrong.

Jimbuna

02-01-17, 08:22 AM

Then Merkel is no different or better than May and more of a gambler perhaps with the forthcoming elections in Germany :hmmm:

http://i.imgur.com/4Glvbj2.jpg

Catfish

02-01-17, 09:03 AM

^ Exactly, both May and Merkel set the wrong sign at this time.
But this picture is old i think, prepare to insert a new one tomorrow :03:
With a sneering Erdoghan, and an anxiously-smiling Merkel.

I have no idea what happens in the next german election. Merkel remaining chancellor?
Maybe one of the right-wing parties like AfD, or the now-opposition SPD? Both have no idea what to do in case of being elected though :haha:
Maybe Merkel again, just for being short of anyone else.
"Alternativlos", without alternative, as Merkel thinks of herself. :roll:

Jimbuna

02-01-17, 09:38 AM

But this picture is old i think

That pictiure was taken at the NATO Summit in Warsaw, Poland, July 9, 2016.

I'm expecting a win for Merkel. Whilst the right-wing are currently enjoying an upsurge in support especially in Europe, I don't consider any of them to be popular enough to gain power....at the present time.

STEED

02-01-17, 03:12 PM

Here is today's PMQ's score....

May 4 Corbyn 0

:03:

Oberon

02-01-17, 03:19 PM

That pictiure was taken at the NATO Summit in Warsaw, Poland, July 9, 2016.

I'm expecting a win for Merkel. Whilst the right-wing are currently enjoying an upsurge in support especially in Europe, I don't consider any of them to be popular enough to gain power....at the present time.

Agreed, AfD are going to become something that Merkel is going to have to address though...and she clearly has no idea how she is going to do that, and since it's inevitable that there will be more terrorist attacks in Europe, every time that there is one it hands a major boost to the right-wing populist movements like AfD, the FN and Wilders. The latter two of which are in good positions for their respective nations elections...and that should concern people.

Here is today's PMQ's score....

May 4 Corbyn 0

:03:

That's giving Corbyn a bit too much credit isn't it? He's probably in the minus at least.

So...well...that's it then, on we go. Nothing to be done now but grin and eat whatever we're given. I just hope that it doesn't affect me and my friends and family that much, but I guess that's out of my hands now.

Catfish

02-01-17, 04:47 PM

Oberon

02-01-17, 05:27 PM

They broadcasted parts of the UK debate regarding Brexit. :03:

Most are against Brexit but have to accept the referendum. So it seemed to me they voted pro May to punch that through, against own better knowledge. But maybe i'm wrong.. :hmmm:

It's a strange situation in the UK political spectrum because a good portion of the Conservative Party and nearly all of the Labour party are pro-EU, likewise the Lib Dems and the SNP. The primary Euro-sceptics were about a third to maybe a half of the Tories (that number varies depending on the news) and UKIP. The fact that the referendum went in favour of Brexit, no matter how slim the majority was, means that most MPs have to vote against their conscience in order to vote in a manner in which their constituents voted in the referendum. Our local MP was pro-EU, but she will have voted in line with the Tories because this area voted for Brexit and also because she is voting in line with the party leaders direction.
There's really only been one Tory MP who has remained pro-EU and that's Ken Clarke, but he's not the frontline figure he once was and he's basically shouting into the wilderness.
In short, it's a case of "Well...I don't want to do this...but the people voted in favour of it, and if I vote against it I will be absolutely pilloried in the press and public opinion...so..."

Really, it was no surprise to anyone, with a Conservative majority in the Commons it was inevitable that it would pass. The primary question was how many Labour MPs would rebel against Corbyns imposition of a 'three line whip' (which basically means that if you're a cabinet member and you vote against the position of the party leader then you will resign, either voluntarily or involuntarily) 13 front-benchers voted against him, and two had already resigned from their front-bench position already because they knew that they would vote against him. All in all, out of 229 Labour MPs, 47 rebelled. So it's not as big as some would have expected, but so many of his front-bench staff rebelling will be a concern and I wouldn't be surprised if another Labour reshuffle was on the cards.

The next stage is the House of Lords...this is where it could get a bit harder since the Conservative majority isn't so high and there's a number of Crossbench members who could make things harder for the government...however at the end of the day, it's not going to get blocked. So it's happening alright, by the end of March, Article 50 would very likely have been activated.

Skybird

02-01-17, 06:05 PM

Impressive ratio by which they voted for Brexit, its roughly 5:1. I expected that more would try to set up a fight or to get a delay with which they then could pose in either way: "We tried to say No, but in the end we had to accept the Yes".

Jimbuna

02-02-17, 11:22 AM

What happened to Diane Abbott? :haha:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/02/diane-abbott-missed-article-50-vote-due-to-migraine-her-office-says

Catfish

02-02-17, 11:26 AM

"Brexit flu" :hmmm: No it's in the article :haha:

MGR1

02-02-17, 01:52 PM

It's now official, Scotland will be the most highly taxed part of the UK for higher earners:

Scottish budget passes first vote after SNP-Green deal: LINK (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38828873).

MSPs backed Finance Secretary Derek Mackay's tax and spending plans by a margin of 67 to 59.
A deal was struck with the Greens totalling £220m of extra spending, including £160m for local authorities.
The deal will also see the threshold for the 40p rate of income tax frozen at £43,000.
The same threshold is being raised to £45,000 in the rest of the UK, so the move means higher-rate tax payers elsewhere will pay up to £400 less tax every year than people earning the same wage in Scotland. The Scottish government had originally planned to raise the threshold only by the rate of inflation.
Brian Taylor's analysis, Scotland's budget: Jeers and cheers: LINK (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38847028).

I was right in thinking that the Budget would get through, though it appears the Greens were more willing to compromise than I thought.

Mike.

STEED

02-02-17, 06:05 PM

What happened to Diane Abbott? :haha:

She was in JC's bed having a second go at having a fling with him. :roll:

According to the Daily Fake News. :arrgh!:

Jimbuna

02-02-17, 08:59 PM

It's now official, Scotland will be the most highly taxed part of the UK for higher earners:

Scottish budget passes first vote after SNP-Green deal: LINK (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38828873).

Brian Taylor's analysis, Scotland's budget: Jeers and cheers: LINK (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38847028).

I was right in thinking that the Budget would get through, though it appears the Greens were more willing to compromise than I thought.

Mike.

How will that go down with the SNP supporters? :hmmm:

MGR1

02-03-17, 01:48 PM

For the majority the increase won't affect them personally - many are in the C2DE demographic. Those who are, the ABC1's, mainly vote Labour or Tory.

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/18543/Pen%20portraits-01.png

Mike.

MaDef

02-03-17, 02:33 PM

wrong thread

Oberon

02-03-17, 04:08 PM

Well it's not going to be the right thread, we're all lefties over here in Europe! :O: :haha:

STEED

02-04-17, 08:48 AM

On the radio this week I heard this..

Research study that came out this week revealed the British young have turned back to the right wing all thanks to Thatcher...No wait for it. Tony Blair yes him, he has achieved more making the young turn back to the right wing than Thatcher ever did!

Votes for UKIP and the Conservatives have gone up thanks to the kids growing up under the Blair years.

Jimbuna

02-04-17, 10:54 AM

STEED

02-04-17, 02:45 PM

Copeland by-election: Candidates list http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38705088

According to the polls the Tories will win this seat and UKIP will take the next by-election seat. Well we shall see as its down to the voters who they elect.

Jimbuna

02-05-17, 08:26 AM

I stopped taking the polls all that seriously after the last general election but this time (on a one seat at a time basis) they could well be right.

August

02-05-17, 10:23 AM

Jimbuna

02-05-17, 10:49 AM

^ Aye, Theresa May came from the same mould as Margaret Thatcher (the only previous female Prime Minister and also a great believer in the UK/US friendship/relationship).

The muppet she was addressing in the video clip is Jeremy Corbyn, the leader of the Labour Party and the reason I resigned my membership of 20+ years, the day after he was elevated into said position.

Oberon

02-05-17, 01:10 PM

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/donald-trump-muslim-ban-johnson-beharry-victoria-cross-humiliated-a7563451.html

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/45/93/cb/4593cb603c128da4994cdd649558f29c.gif

STEED

02-05-17, 04:04 PM

I don't normally post in this thread as British politics is none of my business but I saw this the other day and couldn't help but be impressed by the verbal beat down your PM delivered to that Labor guy.

Hey outsiders are welcome, us lot in the UK like to hear what the rest of you guys think. PMQ's here is always a good romp. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hjj_L8cq00

Oberon

02-06-17, 07:53 AM

Some interesting stats from the referendum:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38762034

MGR1

02-06-17, 09:45 AM

Matches up pretty well with what I linked to here (https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/18543/Pen%20portraits-01.png) on the last page.

I've already heard about parts of the Banff and Buchan area being pro-leave which means that their local SNP MP voted against their wishes a few days ago....:03:

The result in Moray was pretty close as well.

Mike.

Jimbuna

02-06-17, 02:48 PM

No big surprise here then.

House of Commons Speaker John Bercow has said he would be "strongly opposed" to US President Donald Trump addressing the Houses of Parliament during his state visit to the UK.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38884604

STEED

02-06-17, 03:26 PM

No big surprise here then.

.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38884604

Don't think it can be banned. :hmmm:

The only card they can play is Westminster is closed for repairs and upgrading which will be going ahead some time.

Catfish

02-06-17, 03:33 PM

I guess Mrs May received her share of criticism after immediately visiting Trump? :hmmm:

STEED

02-06-17, 03:33 PM

Nudge nudge wink wink is Nigel having a bit on the side?

Nigel Farage's wife says they have lived 'separate lives for some years'
The former UKIP leader's wife issues a statement after it emerges he is sharing his home with another woman.http://news.sky.com/story/nigel-farages-wife-says-they-have-lived-separate-lives-for-some-years-10758372

Years ago this would have been a national scandal and if he was a MP could have bought his career to an end.

STEED

02-06-17, 03:39 PM

Harman: Labour must 'sort itself out' and become effective opposition
Labour's former deputy leader says the Conservative Government no longer has to worry about the party.http://news.sky.com/story/harman-labour-must-sort-itself-out-and-become-effective-opposition-10757394

Probably fall on empty ears, Harman may as well call it a day and move on like the rest have.

Oberon

02-06-17, 04:28 PM

Nudge nudge wink wink is Nigel having a bit on the side?

http://news.sky.com/story/nigel-farages-wife-says-they-have-lived-separate-lives-for-some-years-10758372

Years ago this would have been a national scandal and if he was a MP could have bought his career to an end.

Nah, he's given an Article 50 to his wife. :yep:

STEED

02-06-17, 04:31 PM

Nah, he's given an Article 50 to his wife. :yep:
:haha:

Jimbuna

02-07-17, 06:18 AM

Nah, he's given an Article 50 to his wife. :yep:

Beat me to it :)

Catfish

02-07-17, 06:23 AM

^^ :haha:

So will it be a hard Faraxit? :O:

Oberon

02-07-17, 12:51 PM

^^ :haha:

So will it be a hard Faraxit? :O:

Not sure I want to put the words Nigel Farage and hard in the same sentence, certainly not this soon after dinner... :Kaleun_Sick:

Jimbuna

02-07-17, 01:28 PM

Commons Speaker John Bercow has defended voicing his opposition to Donald Trump addressing Parliament.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38889941

Oberon

02-07-17, 01:35 PM

Makes you wonder if he's had word from the palace through the back-channels. :hmmm:

Jimbuna

02-07-17, 01:43 PM

Quite possible but the hypocrite had no problem welcoming Xi Jinping.

Oberon

02-07-17, 01:56 PM

At least Xi pretends not to be a despot. You know, at least he plays the game. Besides, the PRC wants to pick up where the US left off in international trade, no point in seeking trade with a nation which wants everything to be made in its own borders.

STEED

02-07-17, 02:20 PM

Commons Speaker John Bercow has defended voicing his opposition to Donald Trump addressing Parliament.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38889941

I don't know the rules for the speaker of the HOC but I feel he has stepped over the line. I am not sure how much he has stepped over the line but I feel he should be made to apologise for his remarks. China and Saudi Arabia are far from being squeaky clean.

Jimbuna

02-07-17, 02:37 PM

I don't know the rules for the speaker of the HOC but I feel he has stepped over the line. I am not sure how much he has stepped over the line but I feel he should be made to apologise for his remarks. China and Saudi Arabia are far from being squeaky clean.

The Speaker presides over the House's debates, determining which members may speak. The Speaker is also responsible for maintaining order during debate, and may punish members who break the rules of the House. Unlike presiding officers of legislatures in many other countries, the Speaker remains strictly non-partisan, and renounces all affiliation with his or her former political party when taking office as well as when leaving the office. The Speaker does not take part in debate or vote (except to break ties; and even then, the convention is that the speaker casts the tie-breaking vote according to Speaker Denison's rule). The principle is to always vote in favour of further debate, or, where no further debate is possible, to vote in favour of the status quo.

August

02-07-17, 02:47 PM

Hey outsiders are welcome, us lot in the UK like to hear what the rest of you guys think. PMQ's here is always a good romp. :)

Nah I'd only show my ass trying to understand your country from what I read in the stateside media. I'll just continue to follow along and keep my opinions to myself. :salute:

Oberon

02-07-17, 02:52 PM

Your choice old boy, it's an international forum after all. :salute:

Oberon

02-07-17, 03:06 PM

I don't know the rules for the speaker of the HOC but I feel he has stepped over the line. I am not sure how much he has stepped over the line but I feel he should be made to apologise for his remarks. China and Saudi Arabia are far from being squeaky clean.

We're not exactly squeaky clean either. :haha: Still, you've got a fair point, he could very well have overstepped his mark, it's an unusual situation certainly.
That being said, I can't recall the Saudi royals addressing the House of Commons, and it was only that that Bercow was objecting to rather than the actual state visit which he noted was 'above his pay-grade'. Xi Jinping did though, but then he's looking to invest in other countries while the Donald is looking to invest primarily in America. America first, after all. So that probably helps sway things a bit. :hmmm: That being said, the US does have a lot of foreign direct investment in the UK, creating some 25k new jobs, whereas China has only created 2k new jobs, but has safeguarded almost as many UK jobs as the US has, although it only has a fifth of the projects invested in.
Financially...it's tricky, very tricky, but you've also got to take into account political standings and prestige, toxicity of certain leaders...it's difficult. It's pretty difficult.

STEED

02-08-17, 02:40 PM

Well today's PMQ's was a little bit of a come back for Labour.

TM (PM) 2-1 JC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=el-nh5XpIZ4

As I have said old JC can deliver a blow and cause some embarrassment to TM but fails to deliver the knock out blow time and time again.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38908462

STEED

02-08-17, 03:02 PM

Nah I'd only show my ass trying to understand your country from what I read in the stateside media. I'll just continue to follow along and keep my opinions to myself. :salute:

I bet you know who is our Prime Minister is unlike some people here. :)

STEED

02-08-17, 03:10 PM

Clive Lewis Resigns From Jeremy Corbyn’s Shadow Cabinet Over Brexit Orderhttp://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/clive-lewis-resigns-from-jeremy-corbyns-shadow-cabinet-over-brexit-order_uk_589aee6fe4b076856217a030

Running low on back bencher's JC? At this rate he may have to ask the SNP if they got a spare back bencher or two.

August

02-08-17, 03:49 PM

I bet you know who is our Prime Minister is unlike some people here. :)

I do but I had never heard of her before they tapped her to become PM.

AND BTW have I mentioned how much I hate the 120 second delay between posts!!! :nope:

Skybird

02-08-17, 04:14 PM

Oberon

02-08-17, 07:55 PM

AND BTW have I mentioned how much I hate the 120 second delay between posts!!! :nope:

We've got common ground on that one. :yep: I understand why it's in place, but it is rather irksome.

Catfish

02-09-17, 02:49 AM

Not before now I have started to take the reality of Brexit happening as indeed granted.

My sympathy is with the UK. However, the UK does not hold 750 billions in TARGET saldi like stupid Germany. Its easier for the UK to take the risk of damaging the Euro than it would be for Germany.

Oh don't care for damaging anything anymore, the EU is doomed anyway or so you say, and then it will be "US FIRST" for each single nation again, and screw the others.

Wishing "them" the best. The citizens, yes, but not types like Farage. And Mrs May gets not much sympathy from me, not for running to Trump, and not for the Erdoghan weapons deal. It seems there is no other civilian plan around when it comes to economy. Maybe she can also make a deal with Assad to finance the Brexit?

The UN says that the Assad regime kills so many detainees it amounts to extermination of civilian population.
But who is the UN anyway, all those superfluous civilists, costing too much money and consisting only of leftists. Dissolve them and make all nations great again! :yeah:

Jimbuna

02-09-17, 06:36 AM

The UN says that the Assad regime kills so many detainees it amounts to extermination of civilian population.
But who is the UN anyway, all those superfluous civilists, costing too much money and consisting only of leftists. Dissolve them and make all nations great again! :yeah:

Best ask that of the POTUS. He pulls the plug on the finances and the ship will sink quicker than the Titanic.

Jimbuna

02-09-17, 06:41 AM

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/clive-lewis-resigns-from-jeremy-corbyns-shadow-cabinet-over-brexit-order_uk_589aee6fe4b076856217a030

Running low on back bencher's JC? At this rate he may have to ask the SNP if they got a spare back bencher or two.

Jeremy reckons Clive Lewis quitting is not a disaster.

The resignation of shadow business secretary Clive Lewis to vote against the Brexit bill was "not a disaster", Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has said.
The party backed the government in Wednesday's vote, but 52 MPs rebelled.
Mr Lewis quit, saying he could not "in all conscience" support triggering Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty, getting talks with the EU under way.
But Mr Corbyn told the BBC that Labour had been right to "respect" the result of last year's EU referendum.
He dismissed as "fake news" and "absolute nonsense" suggestions that he was considering his own future as Labour leader.

Now where have I heard the term 'fake news' lately? :hmmm:

Oberon

02-09-17, 06:51 AM

Well, EDF is going to be having a good day today, people around Hinckley and here will be looking at the news with a bit of concern.

Catfish

02-09-17, 06:59 AM

I do not think it is a "disaster" as well.

It is a difficult situation:
- A representative democracy, with experts (ahem politicians but .. lol) usually deciding for the people, or the greater good
- A referendum, that probably was not the best of decisions, but has to be obeyed. Even if the majority was neither big, nor did all vote
- Personal concience of what some think will harm the UK, or at least England
- The official party line, which of course has to obey the referendum.

The parliament decisions of both houses were the last straw to reject the outcome of the referendum at the last moment, so some people obviously felt that their personal conscience could not agree to the party line, and they sure did not do that lightheartedly.
And this is probably better than "blind obedience", although i admit this sounds too negative.

I think they had to agree, and the majority did. Good. That some try to what they see as to be a prevention of trouble lying ahead, shows that their personal conscience was more worth to them than the party line. This is not negative, but will certainly be seen as "treacherous", by some.

Is all this really Corbyn's fault?

Oberon

02-09-17, 08:21 AM

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C4ODYG3WEAAoslk.jpg

Catfish

02-09-17, 08:41 AM

^

When someone posts a YouTube link here, my FireFox browser shows nothing – all empty.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y174/penaeus/Nolink_zpsryo1kwtz.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/penaeus/media/Nolink_zpsryo1kwtz.jpg.html)

I also do not see the YT videos in the Music thread, not in FF.

No Problem with Win 10 Edge browser, but i'd prefer FF :hmmm:

Fubar2Niner

02-09-17, 08:42 AM

@Oberon

Makes perfect sense to me :doh:

Jimbuna

02-09-17, 09:15 AM

Clear?

Clear as mud :hmmm:

Oberon

02-09-17, 10:52 AM

^

When someone posts a YouTube link here, my FireFox browser shows nothing – all empty.

I also do not see the YT videos in the Music thread, not in FF.

No Problem with Win 10 Edge browser, but i'd prefer FF :hmmm:

That's pretty impressive since that's not a YT vid. :yep:

Try these links and see which one loads, the top one is an imgur link and the bottom is where I got it from which is twitter.

http://i.imgur.com/8hu2uN4.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C4ODYG3WEAAoslk.jpg

Catfish

02-10-17, 03:00 AM

^ Thanks, worked. Still wondering about Firefox, will ahve a look into this over weekend.

And now it is all queer clear to me :haha:
Yes funny article, but holding some truth. It is embarassing for Corbyn, but on the other hand they at least followed their own conscience instead of a party doctrine.

In Germany, if we had e.g. a referendum at a certain moment like after a terrorist attack about death penalty, i am sure that it would come through. Kicking out foreigners? Of course. Make Germany great again? Why "again", not necessary :03::haha:
But you get the idea. People are not reasonable at times, and some never. Ask them about things they do not really understand, or prefer to act with a gut feeling instead of thinking? Populism rules then..

At the latest after this referendum, we should really think about what democracy is, and if we want to go on like this. More referendums sounds good, but might backfire. A college professor has the same voting power like a bum. Sounds elitist but is true. Shall we have a vote over nuclear power if most of the people do not understand it at all, nor do they care? Climate change? :hmmm:

Jimbuna

02-10-17, 06:18 AM

NHS Health Check: Hunt says NHS problems 'unacceptable'

Nothing like stating the obvious Jeremy....but this one is Hunt :)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38926697

Catfish

02-10-17, 06:35 AM

[...]Sometimes I ask myself why there is no GERMAN politics thread.

Shhh don't bring on ideas :O:

Everytime I pay a visit to that country I am left with an ill feeling: I have travelled three quarters of the world, but the is no other country as sick as Germany is. No other country on the globe finds it politically correct or even adequaete to sabotage itself. :k_confused:
Well it's the german gallows humour, which is often much darker than what other countries have, or maybe understand (maybe scandinavians). Being serious about oneself is not popular, in Germany. It is there but boasting with it or showing pride is considered as arrogant, showing off, and very uncool.
It wasn't even serious before or in WW2, the government was and gave the impression. German jokes mocking the Fuehrer were much more acid and mean than what allied peopaganda could have done. Monty P. was a good approach though. But we are laughing at others too, they just don't get it :D

Ok, i of course understand what you mean :)

STEED

02-10-17, 05:54 PM

Nothing like stating the obvious Jeremy....but this one is Hunt :)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38926697

The NHS is just a political point scoring punch bag and all party's are to blame.

Jimbuna

02-11-17, 10:58 AM

The NHS is just a political point scoring punch bag and all party's are to blame.

Rue that :yep:

STEED

02-11-17, 05:30 PM

I see the pressure on the Speaker of the House has been stepped up to get rid of him. We shall see if they succeed.

Oberon

02-11-17, 06:16 PM

I doubt the PM wants to be seen as being that sycophantic that the Speaker gets binned because he said something nasty about Trump. This will probably attract a couple of Tories but I imagine (and hope) that it'll just die a death.

Now, if the Lords vote down the Brexit bill, then things will get interesting. Again though, I'd be surprised if they did, even if there are a lot of Europhiles up there.

STEED

02-11-17, 06:52 PM

Labour frontbenchers who defied Jeremy Corbyn in this week's Commons Brexit vote will be sent a formal written warning but will not be sacked.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38856992

Here is my take..:03:

Labour frontbenchers who defied Jeremy Corbyn in this week's Commons Brexit vote will be sent a formal written warning but will not be sacked due to the fact old Jeremy is running out of Back Bencher's to replace them. Angus Robertson leader of the SNP in the commons joked I got lots of Back Bencher's but none of them want to defect to a party ruled by a old stuck in the mud so and so.

Jimbuna

02-12-17, 11:09 AM

MGR1

02-12-17, 02:59 PM

The problem of abolishing the Lords is the question of what you replace it with. If it's another fully elected chamber with another set of politicians how's that going to go down with Joe public?:hmmm:

Anyway, I found this on Reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/Scotland/comments/5tl6hu/what_did_the_tories_stand_for_in_the_past/?sort=new):

What did the Tories stand for in the past? (https://www.reddit.com/r/Scotland/comments/5tl6hu/what_did_the_tories_stand_for_in_the_past/) (self.Scotland (https://www.reddit.com/r/Scotland/))submitted 7 hours ago by marvellous (https://www.reddit.com/user/marvellous)
I've often heard about the Conservatives being more successful in Scotland in the past - here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Conservative_Party#UK_General_Elections) we can see that in the 1950's half of Scottish MPs were Tories, and they had a non-negligible cadre as recently as one generation past, in the early 1980s.
However, when this point is brought up, I sometimes also hear about how the Scottish Conservatives of yesteryear were quite a different beast to their present incarnation - however I've found it really difficult to find any sort of manifesto or policy ideas that show this difference, especially with specific reference to Scotland.
Were Scottish Tories so different? and if so how different were they? Labour are obviously a lot more centrist now that they were in the coal mining era, and on social issues (e.g. sexuality) the Conservatives have changed their tune (at least somewhat), but what else?The best answer is THIS (https://www.reddit.com/r/Scotland/comments/5tl6hu/what_did_the_tories_stand_for_in_the_past/ddnjy7w/?st=iz3nkdax&sh=de08f339). The two most salient points are these two:

The Unionist Party ran on a platform of Imperial Unity, and built up a strong support among working-class Protestants by emphasizing the importance of maintaining the Empire and its protectionist policies in supporting Scottish industry. Adding to its Protestant ethos, it argued for the traditional role of the Kirk in Scottish public life and for the continued autonomy of institutions closely associated with the Kirk - education, the judiciary, etc.
This is important, and goes a long way in explaining the continued sense of Scottish distinctiveness that has ran through society and politics since 1707.and

So we have a world view that is both strongly Unionist and which understands a sense of Scottish distinctiveness; a coherent framework of the world in which Scotland is with England but not of England, and where being Scottish can be different from, but not in conflict with, being British. It goes without saying how enormously important that idea is in Scotland today, even if we aren't very good at articulating where it comes from.

Any comments? Hopefully it should go a long way to explaining what's best described as Scottish Exceptionalism!

Mike.

Edit: Wall-o-text quote removed, direct link to post added!

Catfish

02-13-17, 06:18 AM

I have always wondered why the scottish kept so relatively calm
What does "conservative" mean, in Scotland? Trying to get along without England and keeping the "Imperial Union"? So the nationalists are not the unionists? But the unionists are the conservatives? Or were?

Just trying to understand :)

MGR1

02-13-17, 08:10 AM

Conservatives=Unionists.

One and the same, but not the same type of Conservative as in England, the difference being religious affiliation.

Conservativism in England = Anglican (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglicanism), tied in to the Church of England.

Conservativism in Scotland = Presbyterian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbyterianism), tied in to the Church of Scotland (The Kirk).

Both white and Protestant, but doctrinally distinct. When the Unionists were a distinctively Scottish entity, looking out for Scotland's interests within the UK and Empire, they did well. After the Suez debacle, one of the core pillers of their identity crumbled. During the sixties there was a decline in the influence of The Kirk as secularisation took place, piller number two goes. That left piller number three, the Union itself. Then in 1965 they formally merged with the English Conservatives and stopped being a Scottish party and became a branch office of a British one.

The irony is that in many respects the Unionists were the SNP of their day except they were pro-Union.

I've heard it more than once up here that if Ruth Davidson and the Scottish Tories split from the UK party and became once again a purely Scottish, Centre-Right Party not beholden to anyone but the people of Scotland, they would do much, much better than they do at the moment. The taint of the English Tories is still too much for many.

Mike.

Catfish

02-13-17, 10:05 AM

Thank you, Mike :)

What do you mean with the Suez debacle, i mean what was Scotland unionist's pillar, regarding that?

Another question, i read about English-Scottish troubles so to speak, when almost all Scotland was de-forested, and british sheep grassing on disowned land – some Scots became very poor, while others tried to adapt and went into tea-trading. Is that even true, or is it anti-english propaganda of the time?

MGR1

02-13-17, 11:56 AM

No problem, I try to help where I can!:salute:

In answer to your first question, the Unionists built their appeal on three pillers: Empire, Church and Union. The Reddit post I linked to explains the reasons why better than I can:

The Unionist Party ran on a platform of Imperial Unity, and built up a strong support among working-class Protestants by emphasizing the importance of maintaining the Empire and its protectionist policies in supporting Scottish industry. Adding to its Protestant ethos, it argued for the traditional role of the Kirk in Scottish public life and for the continued autonomy of institutions closely associated with the Kirk - education, the judiciary, etc.

This is important, and goes a long way in explaining the continued sense of Scottish distinctiveness that has ran through society and politics since 1707. Traditionally, the Church of Scotland was what defined being Scottish, and being Scottish meant being a part of the Kirk. Maintaining the independence and distinctiveness of the Kirk was a point of faith, and that meant resisting the influence of Catholics and Anglicans on the Kirk and society. As the Union State was predominantly Anglican, that meant the Kirk and its institutions had be kept separate from the British State - sometimes to the point of conflict (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disruption_of_1843). It's in this context that John Buchan, the Unionist MP, said "I believe every Scotsman should be a Scottish nationalist."

It was also, of course, necessary to maintain the Union, both to prevent Scotland becoming vulnerable to Jacobite counter revolution and (increasingly) to maintain the industrial output that the country was reliant on.
The Suez Crisis sounded the death knell for the UK as an Imperial power which in turn affected the Scottish Unionists as it removed the "Imperial Unity" piller of their platform. There wasn't an Empire to be united with and the captive export markets that had kept Scottish (and UK) industry occupied began to disappear.

As for your second point... ugh.

I hate to bang on about the clearances in the Highlands and elsewhere, but, they did happen. There are many reasons for the 18th and 19th century migrations from Scotland but the majority of it came down to economics. The big land owners could make more money from their estates if they got rid of the tenant farmers and replaced them with something more profitable. This led to very poor relations between the lower classes and those at the top, a tendency that seems to have continued in the big cities during industrialisation and is something which still resonates today. That's not to say that something similar didn't happen in England, it did, but there does appear to be an extra level of venom to class relations in Scotland that seems to be generally absent in England.

Mike.