UK Politics Thread

[Jimbuna]

Labour's ruling body will meet later to discuss Jeremy Corbyn's suspension.

Last month, a report from the UK's human rights watchdog (EHRC) said the party broke the law by failing to stamp out anti-Jewish racism in the party.

Responding to the report, the former leader said the scale of anti-Semitism had been "dramatically overstated" by his opponents, and he was suspended.

Sir Keir Starmer said those who think the issue had been "exaggerated" should "be nowhere near the Labour Party".

However, the decision to suspend Mr Corbyn was taken by the party's ruling National Executive Committee (NEC), not the new leader.

A panel made up of members from the NEC will now meet to decide whether to take further disciplinary action or to lift his suspension.

Ahead of the meeting on Tuesday, Mr Corbyn - who has been a member of the party for 54 years - released a statement on Facebook, saying concerns over anti-Semitism within Labour are "neither exaggerated nor overstated".

But the Board of Deputies of British Jews said their community did not accept "this pathetic non-apology".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54972649

[Jimbuna]

Boris Johnson was today hit by a Tory revolt over plans being discussed for Britain to cut its spending on overseas aid as the world reels from the Covid-19 pandemic.

Cabinet minister Robert Jenrick argued that the move was a “legitimate choice” to consider at a “unique time” given the billions being spent in the UK on dealing with the impact of the pandemic.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/boris-johnson-rocked-by-tory-revolt-as-foreign-aid-faces-cut-to-pay-for-covid-crisis/ar-BB1b5scO?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBoPWjQ

Well I've certainly got no problems with that.

[MGR1]

Boris puts his foot in it yet again:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54965585

Boris Johnson has come under fire for reportedly telling a virtual meeting of Conservative MPs that devolution had been a "disaster" in Scotland.
Mr Johnson also reportedly described it as predecessor Tony Blair's "biggest mistake".
The SNP and Labour have both criticised the prime minister.
But Communities Secretary Robert Jenrick said Mr Johnson has "always supported devolution".
"What he does feel strongly, and I would agree, is that devolution in Scotland has facilitated the rise of separatism and nationalism in the form of the SNP, and that that's trying to break apart the United Kingdom," he told BBC Breakfast.
"Anybody, like the prime minister, who loves the UK wants to keep it together thinks that that's a very, very dangerous and disappointing outcome that we need to battle against."
Douglas Ross, SCon Leader tries to clarify:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-54973449

The Scottish Conservative leader has insisted that Boris Johnson does believe in devolution despite reports that he described it as a "disaster".
Douglas Ross said he would be speaking to the prime minister later about his reported remarks to a virtual meeting of Conservative MPs.
But he claimed it was the SNP's "obsession" with independence, rather than devolution, that was the problem.
Laura Kuenssberg's take:

It was only on Sunday that the prime minister was hoping to use this week as a reset, relaunch, even rebrand, of his government after the crazy B-movie version of House of Cards that's been playing out in the last few days.
But that night Boris Johnson got caught up in the realities of coronavirus again, being "pinged" after a meeting with a group of half a dozen MPs, one of whom later tested positive, confining him to Downing Street for the next fortnight.
But it's his own gaffe on Monday that will knock his planned return to calm off course.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54965593

Sarah Smith's take:

The SNP would like voters to believe that the Conservative government in Westminster neither cares nor understands the needs and desires of people in Scotland. The UK government had been planning a major push to try to counter this narrative.
They were hoping to show Scottish voters how much they benefit from being part of the UK so it really doesn't help when Prime Minister Boris Johnson appears to be ignorant of his own party's stance on devolution.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54973957


"What is devolution and how does it work across the UK?" from the BBC News site.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54974078

There does seem to be a continuing problem for the Scottish Tories in their efforts to preserve the Union - the English Tories either don't care about it or have no real understanding of it.

Mike.:hmmm:

[Catfish]

Well, is this intentional?

https://i.imgur.com/h2Mc7Oim.jpg

[MGR1]

"Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence" pretty much sums up the situation with the Tories at the moment.

One problem that has been identified with the UK civil service is the "Devolve and Forget" mentality that appears to have arisen over the last 20 years. What this means is that once something has been given to the devolved administrations to run the central apparatus stops thinking about it. It then panics when it realises that the UK is still interlinked financially and that the devolved administrations don't control all the economic levers they would need to run things independently.

The furlough scheme being a perfect example - the Treasury isn't administratively agile enough to run a scheme based on regional governance. It has to be an "all or none" approach.

Mike.

[Jimbuna]

Lord Ahmed retires from Parliament days before expulsion
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54975932

Anybody reading the article will surely understand why.

[Jimbuna]

Jeremy Corbyn: Labour readmits ex-leader after anti-Semitism row.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54976558

I can't believe it....they've just gone and allowed the cancer cell to reinfect the body :o

[Skybird]

My sencere condolences.

There is a bonmot from a German football star and world champion (1990), Andy Brehme, who once said: "If you have sh!t on the heel, you have sh!t on the heel."

[Jimbuna]

Crunch time for Jeremy Corbyn as he's back in Labour - but doesn't have the whip.
Jeremy Corbyn could learn his future today after he was left “half-in, half-out” of the Labour Party in a mounting civil war.

The ex-leader was readmitted as a Labour member last night less than three weeks after being suspended for comments on anti-Semitism.

But the decision by Labour’s ruling NEC prompted fury from Jewish groups and MP Margaret Hodge, who savaged the “broken outcome from a broken system”.

Keir Starmer now faces mounting pressure not to hand the whip back to Mr Corbyn - leaving him as an independent in Parliament.

That would put Mr Corbyn in the extraordinary situation where he was a member of the Labour Party but not able to speak or vote as a Labour MP.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/crunch-time-for-jeremy-corbyn-as-hes-back-in-labour-but-doesnt-have-the-whip/ar-BB1b7pIZ?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBoPWjQ

It may not be over yet. There is still some hope left but imho I think Starmer will eventually give in because of mounting pressure from the unions and the left.

[Jimbuna]

BREAKING: Jeremy Corbyn will not return as Labour MP, says Sir Keir Starmer

Jeremy Corbyn will not sit as a member of the Labour Party in the Commons, Sir Keir Starmer says.

The former leader was reinstated as a member of the party on Tuesday, having been suspended over his response to a human rights watchdog report on anti-Semitism in Labour ranks.

But his successor said his remarks had "undermined...our work in restoring trust" with the Jewish community.

Sir Keir said he would keep his decision under review.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54986916

This might well turn out to be the opening shot in an internal civil war.

[MGR1]

Irn Broon has opined on matters of the Union again, this time in The Spectator:

"How to Save the United Kingdom" (https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2020/11/how-save-united-kingdom)(tm)

From his Twitter account:
This is how we do Britain better:

A devolution mindset

Joint working between layers of gov. with a Council of Regions & Nations

Replace the Lords with a Senate of the Regions & Nations

A new UK constitution of shared values & common bonds
The Tories will never go for it. Also there's still the problem of relative sizes - if England has to be divided up in order to preserve the UK of GB and NI then it's unsurprising that the English population might end up being a bit cool about the Union.

Mike.

[Jimbuna]

Inquiry 'found Priti Patel broke behaviour rules'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55007122

Not surprised because I think she comes across as being a pretty arrogant individual.

[Jimbuna]

The EU and UK chief negotiators have stepped back from post-Brexit trade talks after a member of the EU team tested positive for Covid-19.

The EU's Michel Barnier said his UK counterpart Lord David Frost had agreed to suspend negotiations between them for a "short period".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55005885

What's wrong with video conferencing?

[Jimbuna]

Boris Johnson's adviser on the ministerial code has resigned after the PM backed Home Secretary Priti Patel over a bullying inquiry.

The government's standards adviser Sir Alex Allan found that Ms Patel's behaviour had breached the code.

But Mr Johnson rejected Sir Alex's findings and said he had "full confidence" in Ms Patel.

Ms Patel released a statement saying she was sorry "that my behaviour in the past has upset people".

Ministers are normally expected to resign if they break the code and there are no known cases of a minister staying in post following a breach.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55016076

In my estimation this is nothing short of a whitewash!

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI9yN5V9fTQ

[Jimbuna]

Boris Johnson is facing questions about whether he tried to tone down an independent report which said Home Secretary Priti Patel broke the ministerial code by bullying staff.

Number 10 has insisted Sir Alex Allan's conclusions were "entirely his own".

But a Whitehall source told the BBC that Sir Alex had resisted pressure to make the findings more "palatable".

And Sir David Normington, a former Home Office chief, said Ms Patel's behaviour was "completely unacceptable".

He said the report had found she was a bully, adding: "You shouldn't have bullies in government".

Ms Patel apologised on Friday, saying: "Any upset I have caused was completely unintentional." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55026137

Now this I can believe.

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rk0i_a_ul1I

[Skybird]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rk0i_a_ul1I
Was that him - or was that me?


Anyway, dont know the guy. ;) But this snippet talks the truth.

[Jimbuna]

Yes, I thought it might ring a bell in your vicinity :03:

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd2Ehqk0fr8

[Catfish]

Widdecombe, eh? I have seen some videos and her "speeches", seldom have i heard so much hate, anger, dishonesty and bile; maybe they should re-introduce the burning of witches just for her :O:

The UK government did not need the EU to screw this all up, the rules were clear since decades. Now someone has to be the scapegoat for the fail, and since Farage, Cummings and Johnson must be the good guys it is "all the EU's fault" once more.
Bullsh!t! If one of the participants does not want a deal (Johnson) it is impossible for the other 27 nations to force it , and in this case it is Cummings and Johnson who never wanted a deal, they just lied to gain time.
And as we see they were successful, this has developed into an excellent procrastination, in a way that all just want this idiocy to end, and do not care about consequences or blaming their own f'n government, meanwhile same on the EU side.

This fishing blunder is only the icing on the cake, while the english fishing industry being unable to catch so much fish it has sold or leased their rights to other nations, so those other nations are now "guilty". Nice try.

[Jimbuna]

Aye, don't we just love politicians and their politics.

[Rockstar]

Poor Europe, such are the growing pains when transforming from nationalism into a more centralized form of totalitarianism, oops I meant to say Union :har:

[Catfish]

@Jim: Thank you for your calm reaction :salute:
I know it's not "gold" on the EU side either.

edit: re Rockstar, to be true, i prefer the conditions here in the communist/socialist/bloody Europe before nationalist myths and Trump :D

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgV6VXStS2M

[Rockstar]

@Jim: Thank you for your calm reaction :salute:
I know it's not "gold" on the EU side either.

edit: re Rockstar, to be true, i prefer the conditions here in the communist/socialist/bloody Europe before nationalist myths and Trump :D




well Catfish I hope it works out. Too be honest I think Europe would be better off working like its attempting to do now as a Union of 27 sovereign states. Rather than 27 individual nationalists trying to get there own way all the time.

[Catfish]

"Eu panic" :haha: The UK wants 27 other nations on its knees, guess it won't happen. One country trying to screw it all up. I hope all learn the lesson :yep:

Edit: i propose to abandon the whole EU immediately, fall into recession and then depression, have some nice wars and then get together at the table to get on peacefully for the next 50 years, after which then nationalism will be finally strong again and break it all again. Until the end of times.

[Jimbuna]

The UK and Canada have agreed a deal to continue trading under the same terms as the current EU agreement after the Brexit transition period ends.

The government said it paved the way for negotiations to begin next year on a new comprehensive deal with Canada.

The PM and Canadian PM Justin Trudeau made the "agreement in principle" in a video call, the Department for International Trade said.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55031443

[Rockstar]

"Eu panic" :haha: The UK wants 27 other nations on its knees, guess it won't happen. One country trying to screw it all up. I hope all learn the lesson :yep:

Edit: i propose to abandon the whole EU immediately, fall into recession and then depression, have some nice wars and then get together at the table to get on peacefully for the next 50 years, after which then nationalism will be finally strong again and break it all again. Until the end of times.




Well I dont know about the U.K. wanting the other 27 on its knees. Our states battle against federal supremacy once in a while too. They can get just as uppity as the U.K. protecting their rights when they perceive the Federal government has overstepped.


But most people dont know that. They simply think our Federal government is the only government and makes all the rules and we all trained to follow along with whatever they say. And for the most part we do but only when we are lawfully and constitutionally inclined to do so.



Europe has 27 state flags under one E.U. flag. We have state 50 flags under one U.S flag 'indivisible with liberty and justice for all' or so the pledge goes. :03:


Hey a little trivia. Did you know prior to WWII Americans used to raise their right arm up palm down when reciting the Pledge of Allegiance? :yep:

[mapuc]

This is the UK Politics thread

Not a science thread, because I can tell you that my friends have shown several times, how they different in theory and practice.

A majority is against EU, nevertheless they put their vote on politicians or parties who only is critical against EU.
Every party in the Danish parliament isn't for a Danexit and therefore a referendum isn't on the table.

So I wonder which other country will follow UK and leave EU.

Markus

[Rockstar]

Oh no doubt we are not exactly alike but from my perspective I do see some similarities.


We know you want to be just like us. Inside every European is an American waiting to get out.:har:

[Catfish]

@Mapuc ^ Why do you think any country will follow the UK?
I guess they aready saw what happens, and the next decades will not be "easy" (to say at least) economically, for the UK. Maybe the Uk even breaks up, because of brexit. Ireland, Scotland, Biden being president..

The nations i would indeed like to leave the EU are Poland, Romania and Hungary, since they do not respect human rights and are on the way to dictatorship or fascist states. We see what happens in Poland right now, if they do not respect some core values but are only there to steal money, out with them!
Of course this will not happen, they will not leave voluntarily as long as there's money in it, and the EU will not throw them out - i think. But maybe some thing will change soon, i sure hope so.

In Hungary wannabe-dictator Orban has got a lot of money from the EU to modernize his country environment-wise to replace all aged public lighting with LED lights.
Orban had made his son minister and gave him the money. Guess what - no modernisation, money ended up privately in Orban's family.
In the UK, the EU money has at least spent wisely and transparent, e.g. for the restoration of Manchester.

But Hungary?
https://de.reuters.com/article/us-hungary-orban-balaton/special-report-how-europes-taxpayers-will-bankroll-viktor-orbans-friends-and-family-idUSKCN1GR21D

In Poland, Kaczinsky and his PIS party are arresting women demonstrating for their freedom, it is like back to the middle ages!

Get. Them. OUT !

[mapuc]

^
Almost on daily basis I read words like

Out Of EU among my Danish and Swedish friends.

The problem is they say one thing(theory)but act different when there's an election-here they put their vote(practice) a party who is for EU or critical at most.

Markus

[Jimbuna]

Former prime ministers David Cameron and Tony Blair have warned Boris Johnson that cutting the UK's overseas aid budget would undermine the UK's G7 presidency next year and cost lives.

The UK is committed to spending 0.7% of GDP on aid - a global benchmark.

But the government is considering reducing the target to 0.5%, which would have saved around £4bn this year.

Such a decision would be a "moral, strategic and political mistake", Mr Cameron has warned.

Spending on foreign aid is linked to the UK's national income - its GDP - which has been badly impacted by the pandemic.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55025316

Two ;as beens' poking their nose in where they wouldn't have appreciated during their terms in office.

The figures below are from 2015 but I don't understand why we continue to support the likes of India and Pakistan who are obviously wealthy enough to have a nuclear weapon capability.

https://i.postimg.cc/qqD3BFMr/57d95a521800006c32bd156d.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[MGR1]

Soft Power = Money = Influence.

IMHO you need three things for international diplomacy:

1. Money

2. A nose peg

3. Gloves and/or hand sanitiser.

Military or "Hard Power" is optional but possibly counterproductive whilst economics and financial "Soft Power" arguably gets you further.

Mike.

[Jimbuna]

Especially for you Kai :):03:

What an awful mess :nope:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrSdokFzY-Q

[Catfish]

"Thanks" :doh:
:k_confused:

[Skybird]

As I said since years. the EW's top priority is to not allow Brexit setting a successful precedence, so wanting to damage it at any cost - or to frustrate the UK so long that it finally reverses Brexit and falls back in line.

Johnson is not really a Brexiteer, he never was. He was and is an opporutnist in the first. He will hang and adjust his flag every day newly and according to the wind, and then trying to get away with it.

Corona changed it all and I am a bit clueless whether the UK can still survive, and successfully so, a Brexit. That I still stick with the idea is due to a changed motive now: I simply hate to endlessly babble back and forth and back and forth and back and forth. There was a plan, there was an objective, it has been acchieved (difficult enough a birth it was) , plans for the follow-on operations had been laid down, and had time limits, and these time limits should be kept.

Johnson has collected plenty of damage this year. First for his incompetent handling of Corona, second for his announcement to break a freshly signed treaty that maybe he better should not have signed in the first, and third for his wishy-washy egg-dance he is trying to stepdance since several weeks now. I mean the game should already be over by now, shouldn't it...? That was the laste deadline.

Lesson learned from this: ultimatums and timelines and any such "threats" :har: are not worth the paper they are beign printed on. And if "adamant" principles get traded and broken this easily, what trustworthiness can any later signed treaty then have?


Correct: none.

[mapuc]

Maybe it's me who have a positive view on this.

I'm convinced Britain will win by leaving EU in the long term

When it comes to Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland I'm not so sure.

Markus

[Catfish]

As I said since years. the EW's top priority is to not allow Brexit setting a successful precedence, so wanting to damage it at any cost - or to frustrate the UK so long that it finally reverses Brexit and falls back in line. [..ö.]
Never was so much bullsh!t suffered by so many, owed to so few.
And with many i mean the EU and the UK's people, with few i mean the brexit leaders.

[Catfish]

I'm convinced Britain will win by leaving EU in the long term [...] Markus
So true, we cannot know how things will be in a hundred years, and people like Farage, Rees-Mogg and Johnson obviously share your enthusiasm.

But for now especially young people in the UK and also in Europe are thoroughly screwed up for the next generation(s).
As are british people living in Europe, when you think about health care, or trade generally.

The UK has a new deal with Japan that is not better than it had been from within the EU, maybe it is better with Canada but i seriously doubt that.
Charges will be introduced on many imports and exports, which will push up prices for firms and consumers. Also for Denmark. So, congratulations.


edit: this just in:
"Britain, which left the European Union in January, loses full access to the bloc under transition arrangements[...]

The EU is Britain’s biggest financial services customer, worth about 30 billion pounds a year. The relationship has helped keep London one of the world’s biggest financial centres and a contributor to British tax revenues.

From the start of 2021, blanket access for British financial firms to the EU ends and will be replaced by an EU system known as equivalence.

This refers to an EU system that grants market access to foreign banks, insurers and other financial firms if their home rules are deemed by Brussels to be “equivalent” or as robust as regulations in the bloc.

It is a patchy form of access that excludes financial activities like retail banking.
British banks are already warning customers in the bloc their accounts will be closed.
It is a far cry from continued “passporting” or full access that banks lobbied for in the aftermath of the 2016 referendum when Britain voted to leave the EU.

Access under the system of equivalance can be withdrawn at one month’s notice, making it unpredictable."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-finance-factbox/factbox-brexit-and-the-city-of-london-what-changes-and-when-idUSKBN2830OE

Back to the pirate days, if only Johnson knew this :haha:

[Skybird]

Never was so much bullsh!t suffered by so many, owed to so few.
And with many i mean the EU and the UK's people, with few i mean the brexit leaders.


Replace "brexit leaders" with "negotiators" and "all heads of states", and I might even agree.


But the eU is not the shiny knight of the holy grail it depicts itself as. It has handled Brexit extremely underhanded from beginning on. It has no reason at all to point fingers at Johnson's initial misleading propaganda that made that referendum a success years ago.


Ive said it for years now. The precedent of a britain being in the end successful with brexit and having a blossoming economy (its just a sceanrio I tlak about) showing thta you cannot only be without the EU but even be better off without the EU, must be precented AT ALL COST. The strategy of the eU negotiators thus always was to maximise the punishmenet and damage for the UK.



A successful Brexit for the UK was never an acceptable option for Brussel. "You are either with us, or you are not at all". Thats why they notorioulsy rose obstacles - and accused the UK for it.


I saw Johnson always just as a tool. But if a knife is not sharp enough to cut anything anymore, what use is there to still keep it then?

[Catfish]

Did you read the Reuters link b.t.w.? :03:

[...] The precedent of a britain being in the end successful with brexit and having a blossoming economy (its just a sceanrio I tlak about) showing thta you cannot only be without the EU but even be better off without the EU, must be precented AT ALL COST. The strategy of the eU negotiators thus always was to maximise the punishmenet and damage for the UK. [...]
Presenting brexit as the begin of a "beautiful future" with the "NHS properly being funded" and the sun shining out of their behinds as soon as brexit is done, and all this blablah is the job of Johnson, not the EU's.
The EU negotiators cannot really be accused of not chiming in and singing the praise of brexit when it was a blunder from day zero. Or accused of telling some inconvenient facts, which Johnson is not interested in anyway. And comparing Barnier to Johnson, really? Or to Farage? Rees-Mogg? Ann Widdecombe? Negotiate? Lmao.

To make it short, they want to go, they never wanted a deal, they could have spared us a lot of time.
Hope we have learned the lesson, end of story.

[Jimbuna]

'Time is short!' Michel Barnier kicks off crunch week of Brexit talks with warning to UK https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1363450/brexit-news-eu-uk-trade-deal-talks-michel-barnier-fishing-eu-latest

BORIS Johnson is expected to make a dramatic Brexit intervention ahead of a new "deadline" for talks to conclude. https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13271266/brexit-uk-news-latest-boris-johnson-deadline-eu-live/

The end, whichever way it goes must be soon, surely.

[mapuc]

This I know for sure.

The other EU-Leaders hope it will go bad for UK after they have left EU.

Because if they do very well outside EU. Citizens in some EU-country may see a light and demand a referendum.

Markus

[Catfish]

So the EU told Denmark to cull those minks?
I guess i do not need to comment this, "Perlen vor die Säue".

The EU is not perfect but it is by far not as bad as you and those conspiracy idiots try to paint it. So freedom of travel, or choosing to work where you want if you can is bad? What exactly did you do apart from sitting alone in your house? Have you seen other countries, do you speak their languages, what have you seen of the rest of the world aprt from conspiracy sites on the internet?
That the US does not like competition and undermines it where it can, i can understand, but not what you think or say about it.
I hope the EU perishes, if only that people like you at least get an idea of what it all was about, what had been achieved for a short time, and why it was done, before you destroyed it.

[Skybird]

So freedom of travel, or choosing to work where you want if you can is bad?
I you stroll over land that is already claimed by others and so is not yours, you have to ask them for their permission, yes.

You can ask for work or offering your service where the others let you, if you do not own the place.

And if the others say they dont want you, or dont need you, or are "complete", what right exactly do you refer to that gives you claim that they have to change their minds? Is your wish their command, must they obey to your desires?

Your freedom ends where you exceute yours at the cost of destroying the right of property and the freedom of others. And if yo do not accept that, the others have the right of self defence against you.

I claim right to promenade in your living room. I claim right to camp in your garden. I call that freedom of movement. I claim right that you must employ and pay me as your gardener. I call that freedom to chose where I want to work. I appear in your bedroom at 4 am in the morning and hold a furious political speech, and call that my freedom of speech. I have a right of free opinion, so what do you want from me, eh?

Maybe you do not want anything of that since it is your livjng room, your garden and your bed room and your money, but my wish shall be your command, becasue I am about freedom, and you are only about xenophobia and antisocial greed and egoism. So, obey! Or are you no socially responsible, caring man?

[Skybird]

'Time is short!' Michel Barnier kicks off crunch week of Brexit talks with warning to UK https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1363450/brexit-news-eu-uk-trade-deal-talks-michel-barnier-fishing-eu-latest

BORIS Johnson is expected to make a dramatic Brexit intervention ahead of a new "deadline" for talks to conclude. https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13271266/brexit-uk-news-latest-boris-johnson-deadline-eu-live/

The end, whichever way it goes must be soon, surely.
With so many deadlines experienced, I am quite convinced now that there is no real ultimate death thta emans the end of all things existing, but an endless wandering of souls from one existence to the next. :o
Deadline. :haha: Ultimatum. :har:

[mapuc]

So the EU told Denmark to cull those minks?
I guess i do not need to comment this, "Perlen vor die Säue".

The EU is not perfect but it is by far not as bad as you and those conspiracy idiots try to paint it. So freedom of travel, or choosing to work where you want if you can is bad? What exactly did you do apart from sitting alone in your house? Have you seen other countries, do you speak their languages, what have you seen of the rest of the world aprt from conspiracy sites on the internet?
That the US does not like competition and undermines it where it can, i can understand, but not what you think or say about it.
I hope the EU perishes, if only that people like you at least get an idea of what it all was about, what had been achieved for a short time, and why it was done, before you destroyed it.

I have said a few times by now..my critics against EU is NOT based on right-alt information. It's based on Danish and Swedish MSM(Main Stream Media) throughout the years.

And you are correct it isn't EU who have forced Denmark to kill all it's mink...this only a Danish decision. Which have lead to a political scandal never seen before not on this side of WWII.
The Danish Prime minister and 4-5 more could very well be impeached. The chances are high.

Markus

[Catfish]

Dear Skybird, i thought you knew this but since it seems that no, i will one last time try to explain it, and you do not need to quote Farage or go to your propaganda extremes to try to belittle advantages of the EU just for you, or Johnson's ego.

I usually can stroll over a foreign country land "that belongs to someone else", yes, this is called "tourism", sight-seeing, extending one's horizon, interest etc.. Sometimes you might even talk to the people living there (gasp!)

The EU has made this easier: Since the EU you can travel relatively freely, you do not need to ask for visa months ahead of your intended visit, or have to report to an official registration office to get a time-restricted permit and a stamp on it to be acknowledged in case of police controls. And they may keep your passport, until you leave.
Welcome back to the bad old times eh?

If you are a brit travelling across Europe on a vacation, or work there, or live there, and get sick, you instantly get the same or better treatment like in the UK, freely, because this has been managed by EU international treaties. Niot after 2021 of course. Any Brit living in Spain or somewhere will now have to go to the UK for medical treatment, or privately pay for it in the EU.

And yes I can ask for work anywhere in the EU on territory that does not belong to me, and no one has to accept me. But if i am good at the job, they might even hire me, and then i am automatically allowed to live there for the employment time. And it would not make much sense otherwise.

So you say the EU would say that
a) i can only travel over ground that belongs to me

b) i can only ask for work on grounds that belong to me?
c) a company has to accept me just because i want to work there?
d) If the others don't want me they have to employ me?
Are you completely nuts? Quite a strange perception of reality.

Your freedom ends where you exceute yours at the cost of destroying the right of property and the freedom of others. And if yo do not accept that, the others have the right of self defence against you.Blahblah, do you write Farage's public ejaculations?
What does this have to do with the EU? Do you think the EU allows you to enter or camp on other's private property anywhere?
Are you nuts? Where is this written?

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3AgatUC8ic

[Skybird]

Dear Skybird, i thought you knew this but since it seems that no, i will one last time try to explain it, and you do not need to quote Farage or go to your propaganda extremes to try to belittle advantages of the EU just for you, or Johnson's ego.
I have not quoted Farrange, I do not belittle advantages of the EU, and I do not speak in place of Johnson'S intentions. Its just that I question your quoted EU advantages a bit more than you can step back from yourself and your views, to check yourself from a distance.


I usually can stroll over a foreign country land "that belongs to someone else", yes, this is called "tourism", sight-seeing, extending one's horizon, interest etc.. Sometimes you might even talk to the people living there (gasp!)
So what is your point? I'm all fine with that as long as the peple fo the place do not obejct to tourists. What I object to is your implication that tourists have any sort of natural right to travel through other people's lands and homes. You take it for granted. It isn't. You need permission. And sometimes even formalised in a visa. And even with a visa you need the inherent tolernace of the place'S people. They wll let you feel whether your presence is tolerated or whether you are most unwelcomed.



The EU has made this easier: Since the EU you can travel relatively freely, you do not need to ask for visa months ahead of your intended visit, or have to report to an official registration office to get a time-restricted permit and a stamp on it to be acknowledged in case of police controls. And they may keep your passport, until you leave.
Welcome back to the bad old times eh?Nations inside the EU zone agreed to formal simplifications. They also have any right there could be imagned to leave the block and say no to these and other house rules of thre block. Like they can also demand you to pay in their national currency if you are in their country. And you know what? Its not even a big deal. You just blow it up to the proportions of a big deal.But it isn'T. Its a complete upblown luxury problem.


Also, security and border controls are a no brainer. I say this by referring to policemen I knew in the past, but it does not need a rocket scionetiist tio figure out that if you leave borders uncontrolled, you should not be surprised to see border-crossing crime blossoming. Today much more effort needs to be invested to achhieve smaller successes - andn this with limtied polrice ressoruces and strained personell levels and an overloaded justice apparatus. Security, fighting border-crossing crime, definetely has suffered. Say the practitioners - what politicians want it to appear as - a success story, of course -, I do not care.


If you are a brit travelling across Europe on a vacation, or work there, or live there, and get sick, you instantly get the same or better treatment like in the UK, freely, because this has been managed by EU international treaties. Niot after 2021 of course. Any Brit living in Spain or somewhere will now have to go to the UK for medical treatment, or privately pay for it in the EU.Dont think your head hot on behalf of the Britons. You must not figure out what you think they should take as their best self interest, they do that all by themselves. These are grown up people. Let them live with the consequences of their decision, may they be good or bad.



And yes I can ask for work anywhere in the EU on territory that does not belong to me, and no one has to accept me. But if i am good at the job, they might even hire me, and then i am automatically allowed to live there for the employment time. And it would not make much sense otherwise.No disagreement from me. But you first posted it as if they could work just where you want even if you have not been asked for. At least you came over like this.



So you say the EU would say that
a) i can only travel over ground that belongs to me

b) i can only ask for work on grounds that belong to me?
c) a company has to accept me just because i want to work there?
d) If the others don't want me they have to employ me?
Are you completely nuts? Quite a strange perception of reality.I pointily summarised the essence of what in legal theory sometimes is referred to as "natural law". The right for private property, which excludes others laying claim for what is naturally yours. And that freedom of any sort only makes sense if understood as a property law again: you may be free to talk your mind, but you must "own" the situation and time when you do so, you cannot just burst into somebody's privatesphere and start holding a lecture, you need a consensually agreed opportunity or you must rent a place, hall, house for a given time, and then step onto the stage.

You may want to travel another country of whose community you are no part of. But you must have the people's per mission. Your wish must not autom atically be a command for them to accept you and let you in. You seem to take that as grnated. But you shouldn't.


Blahblah, do you write Farage's public ejaculations?
What does this have to do with the EU? Do you think the EU allows you to enter or camp on other's private property anywhere?
Are you nuts? Where is this written?Watch your tongue.



And at least try to understand what I was pointing at. Its pretty basic principles that all fair law must base on, else the law becomes an injustice in themselves.

---

Even from inside the EU political circles there now came criticism a short time ago that the negotiation strategy of the EU was meant to be destructive from beginning on. That the EU must no give up its own fair interests, is clear, and I even stated that explicitly last year during the brexit debates we had in the forum. But the EU is not satisfied with haiving the UK as a third party nation being treated like any foreign nation in future trades, but time and again raised demands that were designed to demand more from it, on the grounds of that geographcial closeness were a reason why the UK had to accept obeying EU demands that other non-block nations are not demanded to accept. The EU raises double standards here, and implies to still have a claim for authority over the UK's soon internal and sovereign issues. I never demanded the EU to allow cherry-picking by the Brits or to make a deal full of concessions, but fact is the EU all the time demanded concessions and concessions from the UK that were penetrating the Brexit's very purpose, and raised hurdle after obstacle to make life as miserable for the UK after Brexit as possible. The eu wants to prevent that the UK could be successful with an (economic) Brexit, because then it would be the precedent that doing your thing without the EU is not only possible, but even maybe better. The EU wants to make sure that the british must fail and crawl back under the EU's paternalistic umbrella.

Not giving the other advantages for free, is one thing. Wanting to force him accepting disadvantages only to show that he cannot manage things himself, that is something very different. And the EU is so full and guilty of this split tongue-talking that it hurts the mind.

It should be about both sides doing their things independently, and havign trading relations where both agree to have trade, and maybe cooperating opportunistcially in tehcnology prjects and on anti crime operations, exhcnging anit-terror intel and such. But the EU cannot leave it to that, it demands concessions that undermine British then-sovereignty and open backdoors again for EU bodies to interfere with UK's internal policy-makings, that way leaving a space open for pushing EU legislation in once again, for example on migration.

Its underhanded.

The eu also wants to prevent unwanted competition on tax policies. Being a socialist plundering and high tax and redistribution paradise, the British thread of turning London into a low tax haven and by that forcing a healthy competition between both tax regimes, would demand the EU to become less money-wasting and basing on endless inflation of money and collecting ever more taxes, namely in Germany. EU member states living of high taxes only, are economically anythign but healthy, and are not fit to meet competition even if this comepition would be good for the citizens who are beign robbed by their govenrments like crazy. Belgium and Germany have the highest tax regimes in the world. Its insane what gets collected in taxes and compulsary charges in Germany so that politicians can keep on runnign their show on stage. So, here is another motive why the EU is so destructive in the UK negotiations.

Please note, nothing in what I say here is in explicit defence of Johnson, or Farrange. Linking me to them leads - nowhere. I cannot even stand them. I just am much more willign than you are, catfish, to also see things through the other'S eyes, and to not mistake my advantages with their fair self-interests and natural rights. You oftehn claim you are critical of this and that in the eU and that it mjust be reformed and you kinwo what, but in the end yohj always end up by pushign for accepting the Eu as it is, igonrign that it cnanot be realistcoally reformed, and if nobody wpould move and breath, then the house of cards will hold together for the future, sure. I do not see your verbal claims and the EU things you nevertheless accept or defend, beign in congruence, and that is why I so often have problems with you and see you as quite provocative.

Johnson probably should not have signed that deal that he signed in the end, that he should not is indicated by that now he already needs to threaten to break it, that bad that agreement is. It should have been a no deal brexit from beginning on, without any ifs and buts. And I said that already when the whole thing began years ago. The EU has torpedoed any neutral arrangement from beginning on, and the British have bogged it down all by themselves, too. What a pitiful sight this battlefield is. And then came Corona, as an equivalent of a heaven-sent fog of war... One could fall into a delirium over all this.

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB-L0OkBTgY

[Skybird]

What sources are these videos from, the speaker so obviously being a robot? Quite some of them have been posted recently.

[Rockstar]

I think European Union is a fact of life and not going away. The concerns about over reaching power into the States business is nothing new to us. We battle over the same thing with our federal government. Things will be ironed out behind the scenes in order to maintain the Union and keep the states relatively content.

As for the Brits they live on an island and in a deeply divided Kingdom over Brexit. I dont think they will survive very long in isolation as a 'rebel' State. Its only a matter of time before the Brits are pressured to see the light and succumb to the will of the European Union who I'm sure is already making plans to guide them back into the fold.

I'm sure it will be portrayed as a happy occasion filled with tears of joy and glad tidings. But it will without a doubt most definitely solidify the Unions existence and position in the region. There is strength in numbers.

[Jimbuna]

What sources are these videos from, the speaker so obviously being a robot? Quite some of them have been posted recently.

UK News Today on You Tube

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxdTAzT0yUJ2vo1s1a6DMPg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaVPzzWZBJA

[Jimbuna]

Members of Labour's ruling body loyal to Jeremy Corbyn have walked out of a meeting in protest over his continued exclusion from the parliamentary party.

The 13 representatives of the National Executive Committee said Sir Keir Starmer's decision not to re-instate the whip to Mr Corbyn in a bitter anti-Semitism row was a "factional" move.

Mr Corbyn has been urged to apologise for remarks downplaying the extent of anti-Semitism when he was leader.

His lawyers are challenging the ban.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55057680

The internal fighting continues unabated apparently.

[Catfish]

UK News Today on You Tube [...]
Hmm, yes, a YouTube channel, also something on Pinterest.
No name or responsibility, run by some "Sandra F" who can be anyone or anything. Sister channel is US News today.
Intro looks professional, but anyone can create a "channel" on YouTube today and spread his word and opinion; i'd be reluctant to take this for gospel.
EU panicking? Not really. That is what Johnson would like to see of course.

edit: As usual the comments show who watches this stuff.

[Skybird]

UK News Today on You Tube

Yes, but who is behind that? Can'T you Brits speka yourn won engish? Why is one of your news outlets, if it is that, using a speech bot? You cna sometimes notie the typical accoustic distoprtions in prnounciation that reveal the machien sourc eof the spoken word, it remind sof how voice generators worked ten or twenty years ago.

Could be a bot station from an unrevealed hidden player, my suspicion is. Russia. They have an obvious interest in rattling the moods up in Britain, and are a big number in propaganda and infiltration. China as well, but I think the Russians come first here.

[Catfish]

The "robotic" voice sure reminded me of a similar channel run by RT.

[Jimbuna]

Whatever the source the only thing for certain is the message they are attempting to convey.

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBGG1LqjVbg

[Jimbuna]

The UK has ditched its policy of spending 0.7% of national income on overseas aid to help deal with the coronavirus crisis at home.

A junior minster, Baroness Sugg, has quit over the move, calling it "fundamentally wrong" at a time of "unprecedented" global crisis.

But Chancellor Rishi Sunak said it was hard to "justify" the policy with the UK facing record borrowing.

The cut - to 0.5% of national income - will save about £4bn a year.

Mr Sunak said this would be "temporary" and the 0.7% target would return when finances allowed.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55064019

Even with this cut we will still be providing more aid than many other countries.

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJBgwztu3FE

[Catfish]

^ nice propaganda pieces, but why does he try to demonise Macron, when he says he will be doing a "frexit" soon anyway :haha:

[Jimbuna]

^ nice propaganda pieces, but why does he try to demonise Macron, when he says he will be doing a "frexit" soon anyway :haha:

I think they're trying to up the effect by being as assertive as possible.

Load of crap most of it/them.

[Jimbuna]

Now these (Express) I take much more seriously.

Macron to spark new fishing war WITHIN EU as he makes grab for Brussels' €5bn Brexit fund
FRANCE has launched a cash grab for much of the EU's €5 billion emergency Brexit fund to bailout its fishermen.
Emanuel Macron wants to secure the lion’s share of the so-called “adjustment fund” to prop up France’s northern coastal communities set to lose out on access to Britain’s fishing grounds. The French President’s hardline approach to secure almost the same opportunities in the UK for EU vessels has taken negotiations over the Brexit trade deal to the brink of collapse. Having already frustrated European colleagues with this stance, Mr Macron now risks infuriating them by pushing to seize control of the Brexit fund.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1364839/Brexit-news-France-Emmanuel-Macron-fishing-Brexit-adjustment-fund-latest-trade-talks

[Jimbuna]

Not so much these though (The Sun)

THE EU has threatened to PULL OUT of post-Brexit trade talks while Dublin says it is "imperative" for everyone involved that a deal is agreed.

Talks remain stalled over the thorny issues of fishing and state aid as the clock ticks down to the end of the transition period on December 31.

EU Commission president Ursula von der Leyen says the bloc is prepared for the UK to leave without a trade deal.

“With very little time ahead of us, we will do all in our power to reach an agreement. We are ready to be creative.

“But we are not ready to put into question the integrity of our single market,” she said. https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13271266/brexit-news-latest-border-controls-france-deal-deadline-uk-eu-live/

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S85-x6TJVms

Then the band played "Believe it if you like"

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o67k93r44w4

[Rockstar]

Alexander SmithSeptember 17, 2020

LONDON — The British government has for years hoped that President Donald Trump would give them the post-Brexit trade deal they crave.


But Democratic candidate Joe Biden made it clear Wednesday that he will not support any trade deal with London if it endangered peace in Northern Ireland — an issue that has dominated the United Kingdom's messy, protracted departure from the European Union.


"We can't allow the Good Friday Agreement that brought peace to Northern Ireland to become a casualty of Brexit," Biden said in a tweet.


https://news.yahoo.com/biden-warns-u-k-irish-133909721.html

[Jimbuna]

Face-to-face Brexit trade talks will resume in London this weekend, the EU's chief negotiator Michel Barnier has said.

In-person negotiations were suspended when Mr Barnier had to self-isolate after a colleague tested positive for Covid last week.

The Frenchman said the "same significant divergences persist" in negotiations.

Boris Johnson insisted the likelihood of a deal depended on the EU.

Speaking on Friday ahead of talks resuming, the prime minister told reporters that "there's a deal there to be done if they want to do it".

But he added "substantial and important differences" remained between the two sides, with just over a month left to finalise an agreement.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55090861

[Jimbuna]

Nicola Sturgeon has said a second independence referendum should be held "in the earlier part" of the next Scottish Parliament term.

The SNP leader, who is also Scotland's first minister, said her focus was currently on guiding the country through the pandemic.

But she insisted that the UK government's current opposition to indyref2 was unsustainable.

She would not be drawn on what she might do if it consent was refused.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-55094835

I'd be really interested to know what she will do because the previous referendum in September 2014 was supposed to be a once in a generation event.

The difference today being that recent polls suggest a vote for independence would succeed.

So Nichola, do we keep having referendums until you get the result you want?

I've personally got no problem with Scottish independence but let us agree the terms first, two of which should be the Pound Sterling can't be used because it is underwritten by the Bank of England and you take your fair share of the national debt with you.

Just saying.

[Skybird]

I am not against scottish independence either as long as they do not expect European nations to pay their bills.

And I certainly do nto want just anothe rhungry mouth at the eU's table that expected to get fed more than it gives back. EU memberhsio is only imaginbable if Scottland would be a net contrbutor, not a net taker. Well - is it? :03:

Lets face it, that is what it is about. Money. Scottland wouldnt be a gain for the EU, but a burden.

I therefore ask London to refuse any such referendum. Pay your British pounds for Scotland yourself, we prefer to waste our Euros for other things. :haha: And as long as they need others to pay their bills, it wouldn't be true independence anyway.

[Jimbuna]

Tax revenue generated in Scotland amounts to about £66 billion, including North Sea oil revenue, but it benefits from about £81 billion in public spending. That means Scotland benefits from £15 billion more than it puts in. This is possible because the UK pools and shares resources across the entire country.

https://www.deliveringforscotland.gov.uk/scotland-in-the-uk/public-spending/

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qbu5pReJmms

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4N-O8D6B_w

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJLV7SbhtiA

[Skybird]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4N-O8D6B_w
Oooops, somebody just got torpedoed, hit, and sunkthere!

[Catfish]

Nice rhetorics, but if there is anything that can bring Sotland to vote for independence, it is Mogg :03:

[mapuc]

Nice rhetorics, but if there is anything that can bring Sotland to vote for independence, it is Mogg :03:

I have a strong feeling, that Scotland would lose more than they would gain in being independent.

Markus

[Catfish]

I have a strong feeling, that Scotland would lose more than they would gain in being independent. Markus
Maybe, however they could learn to improve financially, and in that case they would have to. As things are now, nothing will change.

I do not even think the majority in Scotland really wants that, and i do not see it coming. I just mean by the usual contempt shown by Westminster and adding Rees-Mogg as the icing of the cake, this could drive Scotland away.

[Jimbuna]

Nice rhetorics, but if there is anything that can bring Sotland to vote for independence, it is Mogg :03:

Oh yes, most definitely :yep:

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZo4ceUy0mw

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ggxAR9qzXo

[Jimbuna]

Maybe, however they could learn to improve financially, and in that case they would have to. As things are now, nothing will change.

I do not even think the majority in Scotland really wants that, and i do not see it coming. I just mean by the usual contempt shown by Westminster and adding Rees-Mogg as the icing of the cake, this could drive Scotland away.

I've a sneaky suspicion another referendum would bring the outcome Sturgeon feels so passionate about.

Nicola Sturgeon has opened the SNP conference by telling delegates she has "never been so certain" that Scotland will become independent.

The SNP leader said support for independence was now the "sustained and majority view".

She told delegates that Scotland was "now a nation on the cusp of making history".

Opposition parties say such a vote would be divisive, and the focus should be recovering from the Covid pandemic.

And some within Ms Sturgeon's own party argue a "Plan B" is needed if the UK government refuses to agree to another referendum.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-55105158

[MGR1]

I'm going to be rather pithy here - an Englishman, a Dane and two Germans discussing the pros and cons of Scottish Independence?

Certainly your allowed to have opinions but I'm going to highlight this little problem with all that polling data:

Certainly polling 1000 people in a population 5 million may produce a result more accurate than the same sample size from 55 million but if we break that down to only ten people you end up with this:

1 from the Scottish Borders.

2 from North of the Central Belt including the Western and Northern Isles.

3 from Eastern Central Belt (Edinburgh and environs).

4 from the Western Central Belt (Glasgow and environs).

See the problem?

For the pro-UK side their biggest problem is finding a positive message for preserving the Union. Their entire argument is predicated on dependency, that Scotland benefits from being part of the UK and would struggle to survive on it's own. The biggest problem with that argument is it never factors in the English opinion of financially supporting Scotland.

For the pro-Independence side it's much easier to produce a positive case but it falls down when it comes to the nitty gritty - money and economics. Without the degree of subsidy provided by the UK Scotland would struggle to provide the level of public spending it currently enjoys. This is where the SNP struggle most. All they can say is "if we had all the economic levers that Westminster has we would do things differently".

This last point is important. For the pro-UK side a Scotland that is financially self supporting and hence a net-contributer to the UK is a threat to their position. For the SNP the risk is that they become fully accountable for any poor decisions and they can't blame Westminster if they mess up the economy.

Ultimately it's not a great choice if all you have to choose from are two sets of blackmailers.

Mike.:hmmm:

[MGR1]

The historian Neil Oliver's "Paean to Britain" from the "these Islands" website: LINK (https://www.these-islands.co.uk/publications/i366/neil_olivers_paean_to_britain.aspx).
I was born British and as a British citizen I will live out my days. My nationality is a state of mind and I have no intention of changing either. I know who I am and what I love – and what I love is Britain, the whole place, every nook and cranny. This is my island. No pronouncement by any politician – here today and gone tomorrow – and no referendum on this or that issue of the day will have any effect on my understanding of myself and where I belong. It makes me feel better just to put those words down on the page.He makes some good and interesting points but, again, this is purely from a Scottish perspective.

What do the people of England think about the concept of "Britain"? As far as I'm aware that conversation hasn't really taken place.:hmmm:

Mike.

[mapuc]

@ MGR1

If a part of a country wants to be independent they shall have this possibility.

I only have this feeling/hunch it will not go well with Scotland economically after they have become independent.

On the other hand - These feelings mostly turned out to be wrong.

Markus

[MGR1]

@ MGR1

If a part of a country wants to be independent they shall have this possibility.

I only have this feeling/hunch it will not go well with Scotland economically after they have become independent.

On the other hand - These feelings mostly turned out to be wrong.

Markus
There are two quotes about Scottish people that are very applicable here:

"Never tell a Scotsman he can't do something - he'll just do it anyway to prove you wrong."

and

"Never tell a Scotsman what to do - he won't do it"

Mike.:03:

[mapuc]

There are two quotes about Scottish people that are very applicable here:

"Never tell a Scotsman he can't do something - he'll just do it anyway to prove you wrong."

and

"Never tell a Scotsman what to do - he won't do it"

Mike.:03:

You are right, no one shall tell you Scottish people what to do or not.

I hope Downing Street 10 will grant you a second referendum.

Markus

[MGR1]

TBH honest Markus I hope not - I'm on the pro-UK side but, good grief, do they need to come up with a new plan.


Mike.

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy2OYNi-TmM

[skidman]

Time for a reality check:

https://www.bbc.com/news/52420116

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y4zoewoqkhefkd5/quota.png?raw=1

Many parts of the quota were sold by English fishermen in the 1990s when fishing rights were cut dramatically. Cod fishing, for instance, was almost entirely stopped for several years.
Foreign companies then bought it up as a long-term investment, and experts say the quota market has been allowed to develop in an unregulated way ever since.
"There's a lack of clarity on the legal status of fishing rights," Dr Cardwell said, "meaning the government is very vulnerable to litigation if it tries to reallocate quota.
"Any foreign fishing companies that purchased UK quota in good faith would be very likely to sue if this was now taken away from them."

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Yf440kN3uI

[Jimbuna]

The UK is in the "last leg of negotiations" with the EU over a post-Brexit trade deal, the foreign secretary has said.

Dominic Raab told the BBC it was likely the talks were entering the "last real major week", and an agreement remained possible if the EU showed "pragmatism".

He added that the talks now depend on resolving a "fairly narrow" set of issues, including fishing rights.

Negotiators are racing to reach a deal before a looming December deadline.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55120814

I reckon we're only days away from either agreeing a deal or both sides looking for a way to blame the other for the failure.

[skidman]

Even if an agreement could be established, the ratification procedure on the EU side can hardly be executed properly in the remaining time. A deal pushed through would further destabilize the Commission's and von der Leyen's position. I'd say, take the blame because we will be blamed for anything anyway. :wah:

[Jimbuna]

^ Most likely :)

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv-6icVdqaI

[MGR1]

Time for a reality check:

https://www.bbc.com/news/52420116

In other words the English fishing industry is expecting the UK government to bail them out after they crippled themselves because of their own short-termism....:doh:

I will add however that there are Scottish Skippers who sell any excess quota to English ones so a percentage of that Scottish total is actually fished by English boats.

Mike.

[Catfish]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv-6icVdqaI


^ My first perfectly blunt reaction to this was Why does this channel creator think anyone gives a sh.. about England? :O:

[Jimbuna]

^ My first perfectly blunt reaction to this was Why does this channel creator think anyone gives a sh.. about England? :O:

Let me assure you I only post the above crap/rubbish whatever you want to call it for entertainment reasons but I also believe there is a grain of truth in some of it but how big a grain is anyone's guess :)

[Catfish]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxJOXNyihA0

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbjKsxkLdSQ

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uaVzvcd6Ss

[Catfish]

^ So "The UK has EU PANIC" ? Says the still :hmmm:

I hope it isn't too bad.

[Jimbuna]

Despite all of the above crap (call it what you will) I'm still not convinced there won't be a deal.

[Catfish]

Well no more deadlines after december, and the UK will be finally free of the EU slavers and Rockstar's Merkelreich.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu/time-is-running-out-for-brexit-trade-deal-eu-and-britain-say-idUSKBN28A0NF

[Skybird]

Well no more deadlines after december,
I will believe it when I see it.



There already have been many comically called "deadlines" in this.

[Jimbuna]

The UK remains "committed" to reaching a trade deal with the EU as soon as possible but will not change its stance on key issues to do so, No 10 has said.

Face-to-face talks are continuing in London in what is seen as a crucial week if an agreement is to be reached.

No 10 said progress was made over the weekend but differences remained over fisheries and competition once the UK departs the EU's single market in 2021.

Germany's Angela Merkel has insisted a deal is "in everyone's interest".

"We hope that the negotiations will have a good end," she told reporters.

But the German chancellor also warned that time was running out and the 27-member bloc had made clear "we don't need a deal at any price".

The UK left the EU on 31 January and is in a transition period until the end of the year.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55133504

I certainly agree with Angela Merkel regarding the above quote attributed to her.

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gS2goirguN0

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja-kKMl7KvQ

:yawn:

[Catfish]

[...] :yawn:
Brexit is boring. This is what i think, since months :D

[Catfish]

Get over the first minutes, it's becoming interesting, and no one tell me that people in England did not see this coming. This is from 2019. mind you, the dead statistics were there before Corona struck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwX-KpnODw4

[Jimbuna]

The people in England did not see this coming :)

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fgcS-z8ISc

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l62BUthThn0

[Catfish]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw8Uniy_K_w

[Jimbuna]

I blame it all on the EU :O:

:03:

[Skybird]

Its been a long, long time... :D


https://www.tagesspiegel.de/images/000_arp2656424/26655856/5-format1007.jpg

[Jimbuna]

Which side is going to build the brick wall at the half way point? :)

[Skybird]

Drill a hole into the ceiling, works faster. ;)

[Skybird]

https://www.tagesspiegel.de/images/no_deal_ts/26676676/2-format1007.jpgby Struttman, Der Tagesspiegel

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNmUkt5MoEA

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMSVNKU88-8

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzTpw9bpdFA

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p47duXU92bM

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Cl3pq9lbZc

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTcMxL1_lik

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ld4hfDx6iVA

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NbNZrFNjqY

[Catfish]

Well i always thought this brexit was a bit of a crazy idea, i just did not know how crazy when i look at those vids and comments :doh:

[Jimbuna]

Well i always thought this brexit was a bit of a crazy idea, i just did not know how crazy when i look at those vids and comments :doh:

Yep, I find them mildly entertaining tbh. You know what is coming before it is actually said :)

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcQ-U_rKTPc

[skidman]

Yep, I find them mildly entertaining

Hm. Maybe for very small values of "mildly".

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7Cr8KSAZ_4

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK24P1Sdj8c

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCTXugbgR1g

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Quaboetob4k

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In0A4fEHyfM&pbjreload=101

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxsAzaRVvzA

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpttWmnRrD4

[Jimbuna]

Brexit: 'Deal to be done' as UK-EU trade talks resume/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55204371

Beginning to look like Last Chance saloon.

[Catfish]

I'm not holding my breath until december 31st 2020, 23:59.

[Jimbuna]

If Macron had his way you'd be holding your breath well into 2021

[Jimbuna]

I hope this doesn't end up being the second 'Cod War'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1BZX01dOfA

[Jimbuna]

We'll probably know this time tomorrow night what the final outcome is but I'm now thinking it will be a no deal result.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtKY6F4Prng

[Catfish]

Boris has shown his intention to break international rules anyway :03:

[mapuc]

I fully understand UK's standpoint. Not an agreement at any cost.

I also understand EU's standpoint, when it comes to the same.

Markus

[Jimbuna]

EU sources told the BBC an agreement on fishing was close but a No 10 source said there had been "no breakthrough".

A senior EU diplomat told the BBC that fishing "was definitely not the issue the talks are stuck on".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55204371

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_YMeOVjW0k

[Catfish]

The one hour version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k5_MaYQPlA

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFgSbDNmlpk

[Rockstar]

So, the U.K. will still participate in the European common market. Got it. Sounds fair and the U.K. wants to regulate the take of species in their own sovereign waters so they can better participate in that market, makes sense. But then the remaining E.U.members demand that U.K. waters should be open to everyone which would obviously reduce the chances of U.K. fisherman from participating in that market?


Seems obvious to me. I'd tell those French fisherman and whoever else wants to fish in U.K. waters to GFTs. Guess they should have listened to de Gaulle back in '67 :har:

[Jimbuna]

France and Germany are the real policy makers in the EU and whilst I believe Merkel to be a little more tolerant and considerate, Macron being French really says it all when you look back at the UK relationship with France over the course of history.

[Skybird]

I may sound surreal, but to me a trade agreement, by its name, is about trading.


Nothing more.


We offer you some of what we produce, and you can offer us some of what you produce. If our people at home like what byou offer, they will buy it, and vice versa. If they do not likie it, they will not buy it, and vice versa. The yearly ammount of how much is to be offered, we can have a mutally agreed limit on, to have a dynamic baölance in import-export balances. We can also have a mutually agreed tax or free-of-tax regime.


Thats what a trade agreement is about to me. Obviously not for the EU. It has always demaqnded so very much more, and linked it to a thousand things that have nothing to do with trade.


A European free trade zone. A combined military effort for collectively defend the members and their international shipping lines. Cooperation in fighting crime, maybe military intel gathering and counter-terror. Thats what the EU should be limited to, and strictly so.



On the other side of the planet, the biggest free market zone on this globe has just been created. And it will teach us lessons. It focusses on bartering goods, and doe snto aim at wanting to be more than that: a low or no tax market. And very different govenrment styles and reigmes and nations can cooperate inside that framework without needing to collide head on over their differences.



And how they will teach us!

[Catfish]

What exactly DOES the EU demand?
I have not heard about or seen details of those negotiations, only propaganda vids :hmmm:

Maybe Johnson should have an exchange with Biden?

[skidman]

The EU demands compliance with standards in production, warranty, consumer safety and so on. And rightly so! Whats wrong with environmental standards, avoidance of hazardous materials, prohibition of child labour, limit the power consumption of certain products? Whats wrong with electrical safety, toys that do not poison your children, groceries that are controlled for herbicide residues? Absolutely nothing.

We have enough dirty sh!t coming into the EU from Asia (Yes almost the whole oh so terrific free trading zone.) We don't need any more of that.

It is really annoying and sad to see how little is known about what the EU does and tries by the loudest critics.

[Catfish]

^ But, you see, Rees-Mogg will not like this :03:

You are right imho, what i meant is that it does not seem to be the fishery, but another thing that stalls the talks. And the only "big fish" left is the Ireland problem. I cannot imagine how they want to solve that.

[Jimbuna]

UK PM and EU commission chief say conditions for finalising post-Brexit trade deal "not there” – differences still to be discussed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55224096

I'm struggling to see any deal now so it might be a good idea for Boris to build a few extra naval flotillas :O:

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD8vLRh1LaA

[skidman]

^ But, you see, Rees-Mogg will not like this :03:

You are right imho, what i meant is that it does not seem to be the fishery, but another thing that stalls the talks. And the only "big fish" left is the Ireland problem. I cannot imagine how they want to solve that.

Ah, Rees-Mogg! I almost had forgotten he is still around. :hmph:

Maybe the negotiations have reached a stage where any concession is interpreted as losing one's face. Even if a deal means mutual benefit, it could never compensate for a few tons of cod in a European net. Ridiculous. Johnson is blocking anything that feels like less sovereignty, that much is clear.

And the NI problem? A border in the Irish Sea is the only possible solution. That way Ulster could become the most prospering part of the UK.

[Skybird]

I wonder how many people know, without looking it up, that EU states per year export more to the UK than to China or the US. The UK is the modt important single export destination for the EU .


And how translates this for Germany...? Eh...?


Ist doch egal - wir hams ja!!

[Catfish]

^ Yes, it is also bad for Germany, or the other 26 EU nations, but it is worse for the UK.
You cannot force anyone to trade or improve relations against their will.
They want to go back in time, you have to let them. Even if the EU fails sooner or later, or can be exchanged with something better - England's reason to leave has nothing to do with it.
Farage or LePen, primitive populism ist getting strong everywhere.They say the EU did not deliver, but little do they know or care. Nationalism, populism and a hate towards foreigners barely disguised as patriotism.
A lot of projects, restorations, improvements will now stop, it will only be felt in 5-10 years from now alright.
In my not at all "humble" opinion it was not the majority who wanted brexit, nor was it even a real referendum. They could have ignored it, or make a real offical referendum, a majority 50 to 50 is not a significant outcome for such a decision.
A lot of young people were too lazy to vote and now the 56+ aged decided the outcome for the younger. And the latter will now have to live through the mess, when the deciders of their fate are gone.
You can read it everwhere on the net, in forums, the younger majority in the UK never wanted this. Even the older farmers in the UK are now doubting the benefits.
Boris Johnson will not be PM for very much longer, regardless deal or no deal.

B.t.w. Rees-Mogg has moved his business to the southern part of Ireland.

[Skybird]

You cannot force anyone to trade or improve relations against their will.
Tell that Brussels. The EU has wanted - always - much more than is being covered by the term "trade". It wanst the UK to play by EU rules. Obviously the EU ignores to understand the meaning of the term "Brexit". And it does intentionally so.


And those who did not vote in the referendum, or believed the wrong politicians - a voter or non-voter is liable for his decision. He shoulkd be held accountable for it. As we know it is common habit in the EU that referendums get repeated as often as needed until one gets the outcome politicians demand. But that does not mean that it is anything more than just the destruction of the meaning of holding majority votes.

[Catfish]

Yes indeed the EU wants its members to play fair and have certain values, or as Skidman wrote.

"The EU demands compliance with standards in production, warranty, consumer safety and so on. And rightly so! Whats wrong with environmental standards, avoidance of hazardous materials, prohibition of child labour, limit the power consumption of certain products? Whats wrong with electrical safety, toys that do not poison your children, groceries that are controlled for herbicide residues? Absolutely nothing."

Of course this could hinder total exploitation, and one can see how Rees-Mogg must hate those newish socialist ideas. Maybe workers could even get some kind medical health insurance, god forbid.


The real point is that England (not the UK, the rest sans Wales prefers to stay in the EU) wants the same common market access and tarriff-free trade after brexit like any EU member, and as it was rightly said four years ago "you cannot have your cake and eat it".

[Skybird]

Yes indeed the EU wants its members
Try harder to understand that the UK is no member anymore and thus is free to reject dresscode and houserules mandatory inside the clubhouse.


A trade agreement is not about a thousand things non-related to trade.
In Asia they have understood this. The EU does not want to understand this, it demands non-member UK to still play by EU house rules and accept EU interference. But that they do not want to obey these rules anymore is the reason why the UK brexited. Whether you like the EUs motives or not, does not matter - the EU claims and demands go too far since they are directed at a sovereign state AND NON-MEMBER.


Both sides should agree on a certain volume for barterings goods per year, and for heavens sake leave it to that, in principle.

[Catfish]

But England does not want any restrictions or a pre-planned "volume for bartering goods"! Bartering? What should his be, like a communist 4-years plan of "free" trade?
They want full access to the single[SIC!] market without having to provide any transparency and sustainability of the underlying production, longevity, no guarantee base for equipment and goods.
They want to receive all the club's advantages and privileges and ease of trade without "paying" for membership?
You cannot visit "your" club in London when you do not accept the club's dresscode and other rules.
It is not your club anymore.

The EU has been formed to EASE trade, and this is being done by STANDARDS, accepted by all MEMBERS.
A non-member has no obligation to follow any security- or whatever standard - it can say it meets all but who shall prove this - England alone? No one will pay for testing when he can have safe guaranteed standards everywhere else.
The Morgan car company has all my sympathy and admiration, as has manufacture and hand-built articles from England and everywhere else, but do you build a nation's economy on that alone in post 2020?

You cannot compare goods when the properties of said trade goods are not known or when the qualities differ too much, when the connections do not fit, when the composition of the chemicals or other materials has to be checked and double checked by other countries to prevent a right royal cluster-f...
This all has been done for transparency and comparison and ease of trade.
Chlorinated chicken anyone? When it comes to this burning skyscraper the standard was obviously off and the company got away once more.

No country with a clear mind would want to install questionable non- (read sub-) standard electrical lines, plumbing or safety-relevant structures of any kind, not only because of love of its people but for insurance reasons.
Of course, dumping loans and a hire-and fire culture will probably bring the price on english goods down (good luck to the workers), but so will quality.
And then there is the EU AND the China trade block to compete with. And the US, of course.


Regarding dress code i sincerely hope Dominic Cummings did not set a new standard :D

[Skybird]

You see, these ^ are the reasons why I said from all beginning on to do Brexit real: without any of these negotiated compromises. I never said anythign else, since only this is really a Brexit. Of course the UK should not have membership priviliges while dodging club rules. But of course the eU also shoudl nto demand to mdinster internal affairs of the UK.

Brexit should mean: Britain exits from the club, and then beign treated like any other foreign outsider, bartering goods for goods (I use that term to simplify what I am about when I say "trade agreement": trading, bartering goods that are in demand on the other side, in the end money-based trading is just bartering again). That includes no other poltical fields and demands. Trading is trading.

The Asian formed their biggest free trade zone pretty much on this premisse, and that is why so widely differing potlical system came togther in that scheme: becasue they focus not on wanting to be all the same and educating the other, but they focus on trading. Not so with the EU, it ants to be, likeRockstr reminds us often, a superstate, taking over evertyhin from national govenrments and parliaments, in pricnpel we can stop to have natipnal elecitosn and parliaments anymore. We are not yet there, but that si where the eU wants to go. And I strictly oppose this new form of a sovjet union. Becasue that is what it is: a sovjet union. Politicians fail us, all the time. The lagrer their playgorudn, the more devastating the consequence sof their falures. Therefore, we must not increase the stage they rampage on, but we must limit it to as small a field as possible, that way reducing the damages and consequences they cause. They atc as if thex can know evertyhign and plan evertyhign ahead. I see misplanning in the most, and a cinstant fall coming from that. The money system. The social and cultural desintegration of communties. The waste of ressoruces for a misled strategy to deal with warming climate. The replacing of diverse cultural identities with an artifical laborotary-ID . The weka stand of the European states on the global stage. The discrepancy between big paroles and demands, and real military power. In Germany especially the misconception of energy pltlics, namely abandong nuclear power while all others build it new. The unnecessary mismanagement of Covid in Germany since spring. The irresponsible waste of moeny on non.maitainable projects.

The lst could be deepened in more detail, endlessly it seems. The reach of politicians must not be extended. It must be cut down and kept as tight as possible.

Britain should not keep emmbership priviliges. But it also shoudl ntobe punsihed for leaving and treated worse than other foreign trade partners. But that is what the eU demands. They call it "due to close geographic vicinity the UK must obey". What drivel.

I do not agree with the conclousi0ns of the author of this, but he does a good job in describing the role of difefrent cultural legacy and philosophy over the course of history that differs the UK form the continent. There are fundamental thinking and worldview differences betwene the anglosaxon and the continetla Eurppean world. Its worth to be aware of these. I always felt very attracted by the anglosaxon side. The contient always has been more totalitarian-oriented, socialist if one want sto name it this way, and the Germany are no expection there, but maybe even the texbook example. I see them being much closer to the Slavic than to th Anglosaxon culture.

https://www.nzz.ch/feuilleton/ist-der-brexit-wahnsinn-oder-hat-er-methode-ld.1578308


Hat man diese beiden Bilder vor Augen – die cartesianische Pyramide und Lockes Schrifttafel –, dann liegt die Vermutung nahe, dass sich darin die unterschiedlichen politisch-sozialen Strukturen der Heimatländer dieser Philosophen widerspiegeln.
Google'S Translator:

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://www.nzz.ch/feuilleton/ist-der-brexit-wahnsinn-oder-hat-er-methode-ld.1578308

[Jimbuna]

Britain should not keep emmbership priviliges. But it also shoudl ntobe punsihed for leaving and treated worse than other foreign trade partners. But that is what the eU demands. They call it "due to close geographic vicinity the UK must obey". What drivel.



That is precisely what I object to, the unfair treatment.

The EU and Europe before it have short memories and are damaging their own image before the eyes of the world.

Macron is going to be in big trouble back home when the French fishermen find their livelihoods jeapordized and that is only one small example.

Merkel on the other hand has been far more cautious and reasonable, realising the impact on German car exports will be hit hard.

All the major players (UK included) are going to suffer as a consequence and the vast majority of of EU members who are net receivers will see little difference in the impact on themselves.

Anyone for Italy going next?

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLPSDuEwSGw

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BWWoNmRTsw

[Catfish]

That is precisely what I object to, the unfair treatment.The EU and Europe before it have short memories and are damaging their own image before the eyes of the world. [...] You cannot really believe that? "The EU is so unfair", "damaging own image before the eyes of the world". The latter is true, but much more for Johnson and England.
Do you begin to believe in those^ propaganda vids?

What’s was so unfair or iniquitous about Britain being in the EU? The EU is a bureaucratic behemoth "with institutions that self-servingly hint at democratic accountability without the means or inclination to follow through", see Poland and Hungary, yes.

But Britain has had four opt-outs from EU treaties and generally had the better end of the deal:
- Opted out of the Schengen Agreement, which abolished border controls, and opted out from the euro zone. It never gave up border control, despite Farage's bs nationalist lies.

-It opted out or let's say it negotiated flexibility on the EU charter on fundamental rights and police and criminal justice legislation.

- Britain accepted the relatively small number of 20,000 syrian refugees over five years, despite the continent-wide drumbeat for every EU country to do its fair share with resettlement.

- It has benefited from the absence of trade barriers with other European economies, while leveraging its position as the English-speaking gateway to business with the EU. Almost 50 percent cent of all British exports go to the EU, benefitting from the lack of tariffs and a set of common standards.

What the EU still wants from Johnson is a commitment to non-regression. But Johnson or his backers will not have it. Be it standards for working practices or environmental rules for protection of nature. The EU wants that the UK should at least stick to those rules it signed, which are binding for the EU as well. Is this so unfair?

[...] Anyone for Italy going next?What about Scotland or Ireland leaving the UK then?

[Catfish]

It seems the Ireland problem is off the table, in a positive way (?) :)

"24 minutes ago (https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13370720/brexit-news-live-latest-deal-barclays-uk-eu-boris/#liveblog-entry-13417992)
IRISH LEADERS WELCOME UK-EU DEAL ON NORTHERN IRELAND
Irish prime minister Micheal Martin has welcomed the breakthrough announced by Michael Gove and Maros Sefcovic, who co-chair a committee tasked with implementing the UK-EU divorce treaty."

Yes i know it's "The Sun", but ..:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13370720/brexit-news-live-latest-deal-barclays-uk-eu-boris/#liveblog-entry-13417992

Also "UK drops law-breaking clauses from Internal Market Bill after reaching new agreement with EU"

[mapuc]

Heard in yesterdays weekly magazine Brits Boris and Brexit on our news channel.

"
It's a common standpoint here in EU, that Boris should climb down from the tree, where he has climbed up to the top "

Markus

[Jimbuna]

Heard in yesterdays weekly magazine Brits Boris and Brexit on our news channel.

"
It's a common standpoint here in EU, that Boris should climb down from the tree, where he has climbed up to the top "

Markus

Oh please Markus, do take note of what the position is and has been reported fluidly around the world.

Until a short while ago the UK had a PM (Theresa May) who couldn't negotiate or organise a round of drinks in a pub and what she agreed to in negotiations led to a steady stream of defectors from her own party to a point where she found a small majority in the Commons turned into a minority figure.

Her main criticism amongst voters was that she was close to giving just about every semblance of British pride away.

The Tories got rid of her and voted for Boris (a bit of a bumbling buffoon at times in my estimation) on the promise he would deliver BREXIT (you know, that same BREXIT the people of the UK voted for in a national referendum?)

Boris called a national election and would you believe it but he achieved a majority of 80+ seats in Parliament.

He was elected on the BREXIT mandate he promised to deliver. So when you make reference to a 'tree' and how he got there I think you should firstly consider how he got there and no he didn't 'climb up' but was sort of put there by popular demand.

I doubt the UK have ever had such a determined leader since Thatcher but I'll readily admit they are two totally different personalities.

[Jimbuna]

You cannot really believe that? "The EU is so unfair", "damaging own image before the eyes of the world". The latter is true, but much more for Johnson and England.
Do you begin to believe in those^ propaganda vids?

What’s was so unfair or iniquitous about Britain being in the EU? The EU is a bureaucratic behemoth "with institutions that self-servingly hint at democratic accountability without the means or inclination to follow through", see Poland and Hungary, yes.

But Britain has had four opt-outs from EU treaties and generally had the better end of the deal:
- Opted out of the Schengen Agreement, which abolished border controls, and opted out from the euro zone. It never gave up border control, despite Farage's bs nationalist lies.

-It opted out or let's say it negotiated flexibility on the EU charter on fundamental rights and police and criminal justice legislation.

- Britain accepted the relatively small number of 20,000 syrian refugees over five years, despite the continent-wide drumbeat for every EU country to do its fair share with resettlement.

- It has benefited from the absence of trade barriers with other European economies, while leveraging its position as the English-speaking gateway to business with the EU. Almost 50 percent cent of all British exports go to the EU, benefitting from the lack of tariffs and a set of common standards.

What the EU still wants from Johnson is a commitment to non-regression. But Johnson or his backers will not have it. Be it standards for working practices or environmental rules for protection of nature. The EU wants that the UK should at least stick to those rules it signed, which are binding for the EU as well. Is this so unfair?

What about Scotland or Ireland leaving the UK then?

I'm glad you corrected that last piece Kai :03:

The die was cast as soon as the outcome of the BREXIT referendum was announced.

I doubt the EU are sincere about much these days, especially a level playing field when you consider the deal agreed with Canada and no I don't think geographical locations are that important.

We look at the friction within the EU growing with every passing day and believe you me, it will get worse between Macron and Merkel, not only at a personal level but also on each of their home fronts.

It's a shame it has come to this but if the original goals of the EEC had been adhered to I honestly believe a trading partnership deal of a meaningful and transparent nature could have been achieved.

Now it is increasingly looking like a race to the bottom regarding tariffs and taxes, hurting all parties in the process.

Ask Macron if he is going to make up the financial shortfalls or is Merkel prepared to further ruin the next German generations future financial stability to keep the ship on an even keel?

Either way....what a mess. Oh and thanks for the fish :O::03:

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LiaDxPwFP4

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFzWkvKTcyU

[mapuc]

Oh please Markus, do take note of what the position is and has been reported fluidly around the world.

Until a short while ago the UK had a PM (Theresa May) who couldn't negotiate or organise a round of drinks in a pub and what she agreed to in negotiations led to a steady stream of defectors from her own party to a point where she found a small majority in the Commons turned into a minority figure.

Her main criticism amongst voters was that she was close to giving just about every semblance of British pride away.

The Tories got rid of her and voted for Boris (a bit of a bumbling buffoon at times in my estimation) on the promise he would deliver BREXIT (you know, that same BREXIT the people of the UK voted for in a national referendum?)

Boris called a national election and would you believe it but he achieved a majority of 80+ seats in Parliament.

He was elected on the BREXIT mandate he promised to deliver. So when you make reference to a 'tree' and how he got there I think you should firstly consider how he got there and no he didn't 'climb up' but was sort of put there by popular demand.

I doubt the UK have ever had such a determined leader since Thatcher but I'll readily admit they are two totally different personalities.

First of all I'm sorry. I saw and heard those word written in my last post last night and I said to myself. I wonder what my friend Jim and other British members in our forum has to say about this.

I try to keep up with the information and the standpoints UK and EU have in these negotiations. I know there are three areas where they can't come to an agreement where fishing is one of them, if not the biggest.

It's hard to get world wide information I have only Danish, Swedish, German tv-channels where there is news program. I have this feeling they are pro EU when they report about these negotiations. I have CNN but they do not use much time on this.

Markus

[Jimbuna]

No apology needed my friend but clarity is essential when discussing topics that are potentially of a contentious nature.

I have been known to refer to Boris as a 'bumbling buffoon' on more than one occasion in the past but as things currently stand he is the only politician living up to what he promised.

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP7Pxv_5qo0

[skidman]

I doubt the EU are sincere about much these days, especially a level playing field when you consider the deal agreed with Canada and no I don't think geographical locations are that important.

It's a bit odd to ask for sincerity with the British currently passing a bill that breaks international laws and infringes almost everything that was agreed on before. It seems the UK thinks it is still in the former cherrypicking position, it isn't. We are sitting at opposite sides of the table now. Each side tries to benefit as much as possible.


We look at the friction within the EU growing with every passing day and believe you me, it will get worse between Macron and Merkel, not only at a personal level but also on each of their home fronts.

The real friction is not between Germany and France. It's between almost all members and Poland/Hungary. We shall see how this develops. When push comes to shove France and Germany will be on the same side.


It's a shame it has come to this but if the original goals of the EEC had been adhered to I honestly believe a trading partnership deal of a meaningful and transparent nature could have been achieved.

If the original goals of the EEC were still valid, the economic strength of Germany and the Deutsche Mark would have torn the continent apart again. Just take a look at countries like Portugal, Greece, Ireland before the Euro was introduced.


Now it is increasingly looking like a race to the bottom regarding tariffs and taxes, hurting all parties in the process.

True. Can this be called an outcome of the Brexit referendum? Yes, of course.

Ask Macron if he is going to make up the financial shortfalls or is Merkel prepared to further ruin the next German generations future financial stability to keep the ship on an even keel?

It doesn't really matter, because a mechanism of shared European debt has been established. And while a lot of people without any fiscal knowledge whine about this, it is the next logical step for a federation with a common currency.

Today the British national debt amounts to 86% of the BIP (EU 80.5%). Let's wait 5 years and compare again.

[Catfish]

@Jim Honestly, i do not understand what you say, or want to say in the last post further north.
The EU not sincere? Well we have seen what happened in the last four years in England. So you are happy that Germany has to pay more after the UK left? Well yes, what can i say.
Predict its downfall, or the EU's? I don't think so.

France and Germany are the two economical powerhouses at the moment, but i do not see much animosity, they are also very different. When things get worse they will still support and try to save as much as possible for their own and other citizens of the EU. Whether the current governments will be the same in a few years is of course doubtful, support of the people, voters and all that.

And the deal with Canada led to an even playing field (towards the EU - how so?), this one?
"The UK and Canada have agreed a deal to continue trading under the same terms as the current EU agreement after the Brexit transition period ends."
and
"Welcoming the continuity deal, Mr Trudeau suggested a new comprehensive trade agreement with the UK would take several years to negotiate."
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-55031443
Same terms and continuity means same standards as before? Congratulations. What was it all for then? :k_confused:

[Skybird]

@Jim Honestly, i do not understand what you say, or want to say in the last post further north.
The EU not sincere? Well we have seen what happened in the last four years in England. So you are happy that Germany has to pay more after the UK left? Well yes, what can i say.
Predict its downfall, or the EU's? I don't think so.

France and Germany are the two economical powerhouses at the moment, but i do not see much animosity, they are also very different. When things get worse they will still support and try to save as much as possible for their own and other citizens of the EU. Whether the current governments will be the same in a few years is of course doubtful, support of the people, voters and all that.

And the deal with Canada led to an even playing field (towards the EU - how so?), this one?
"The UK and Canada have agreed a deal to continue trading under the same terms as the current EU agreement after the Brexit transition period ends."
and
"Welcoming the continuity deal, Mr Trudeau suggested a new comprehensive trade agreement with the UK would take several years to negotiate."
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-55031443
Same terms and continuity means same standards as before? Congratulations. What was it all for then? :k_confused:
France always has seen the EU as a vehicle to drive its own ambition - dominating a francophile continental Europe, first in the southern region, then continentally. Germany is expeted to pay for that - not to quesition the claim by Paris . That one cannot sustain one's claim by one's own economy and indeed is now one of the candidates for Euro collapse one has to worry most over, has always itched and irked Paris.

Thats why Pris wants the socialisaiton of nation'S debts. So that Germanay carries more of France's burdens.

And why do you expect London to act in the Germans' interest...? Not even Berlin acts in the Germans interest, but sells them out...

Oh, and Canada is not part of the EU, but the Commonwealth. ;) Also, Canada does not patronise the UK like the Eu wants to do. They have a solution for the time their negotiations will last. How they go, is their concern, not ours.

I could imagine that deals with other Commonwealth natiosn folow next. It was not called for no reason the British Commonwealth, once. One shares history. Ine knows each other.

With the Irish solution of today, if it is that (I have no idea), apparently being agreed on by both sides, the UK can expect to find it easier to also get a trade deal with Biden and the US. The deal with Japan, much to the displeasure of Brussels, they already got. Chances to get others as well have increased again now that the breaking of the Brexit treaty - as threatened by Johnson - seems to be off the table again.

And you always complain about the British not doing as you define it to be in their interest. But why do you think your way of thinking of it must be their paradigm? I suggest you try a bit harder to see it through their eyes, under the premsise of what they want by themselves, not what you think they should want. They are grown up kids. They can decide on their intentions all by themselves. It must not be similiar to our intentions, they are not us.

[Catfish]

"The Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA) (unofficially, Canada-Europe Trade Agreement) is a free-trade agreement between Canada and the European Union. It has been provisionally applied, thus removing 98% of the preexisting tariffs between the two parts. The negotiations were concluded in August 2014."

I fail to see where the advantage for the UK might be. Remove the rest 2 percent? Ok. How much percent does or did the UK export to Europe?
It does not make sense, from the numbers to sovereignty to take back control of borders they never lost, sorry :)

[Skybird]

"The Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA) (unofficially, Canada-Europe Trade Agreement) is a free-trade agreement between Canada and the European Union. It has been provisionally applied, thus removing 98% of the preexisting tariffs between the two parts. The negotiations were concluded in August 2014."

I fail to see where the advantage for the UK might be. Remove the rest 2 percent? Ok. How much percent does or did the UK export to Europe?
It does not make sense, from the numbers to sovereignty to take back control of borders they never lost, sorry :)
UK and CAN deal with each other >AS IF< the UK would still be a member. But it isn't, and the EU has no say in this new relation. It uses the EU trade agreement with Canada and the UK's former role in that only as a temporary model, maybe also took over the numbers. No loss for the UK there, things continue as before - but the UK got the EU out of the UK's relation with Canada. No bad solution, if you ask me. Oh, and the queen still is head of state in Canada, maybe these historical ties had something to do with the willingness of the Canadians to do it this way. ;)

They signed this temporary treaty short after the one with Japan.

[UglyMowgli]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GF7RHof-asc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQjDP_SgfPU

[Catfish]

"The main reason for brexit was immigration, that went well didn't it."

UK and CAN deal with each other >AS IF< the UK would still be a member. But it isn't ...
Uh, makes a lot of sense?
... and the EU has no say in this new relation. It uses the EU trade agreement with Canada and the UK's former role in that only as a temporary model, maybe also took over the numbers. No loss for the UK there, things continue as before Yeah, makes much sense?

- but the UK got the EU out of the UK's relation with Canada. No bad solution, if you ask me.But I don't ask. The UK was one of the partaking partners (back then in the EU) who helped shape the CETA deal with Canada, anyone remembers? And then signed it. So this now makes a lot of sense?

Oh, and the queen still is head of state in Canada, maybe these historical ties had something to do with the willingness of the Canadians to do it this way. ;) It is probably the historical ties of some three hundred years ago that is still present in the minds of some like Gove, or Farage, or Rees-Mogg.

But "The willingness", why do you think anoyne should not do trade with the UK? The willingness is generally everywhere. But maybe it is the brexiters who do not want to buy or sell anything to or from anyone.

So why should Canada or any other country not sign trade treaties with the UK now, as it and lots of others did with the EU or other trade partners? And the UK (read: England) will now have different treaties for all 79 or how much was it exterior trade partners, and yes it certainly can do that. It now has to. But again, where is the advantage? Less leverage? Less influence?

But even back then trade was not only about trade and numbers as you wrote somewhere. The EU is not only a trade organisation, and the UK saw to that!
Also the WTO does indeed have a lot of paragraphs that deal with trade and human rights, and they are a bit more demanding than what the EU wrote down in its principles. Which were never really used unfortunately, afaik.

"There is more to trade than simply exchanging goods and services. International trade today involves all aspects of human life and, as a result, EU treaties include clauses that ensure various human rights protections.
But, as the UK goes about making its own post-Brexit treaties, it looks like human rights are being abandoned as a result of its weaker bargaining power.
As part of the EU, the UK is party to 40 trade deals, which cover more than 70 countries and make up about 11% of total UK trade (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47213842). This allows the UK to trade with these countries on preferential terms. In the event of a no-deal Brexit, the UK would lose tariff-free access to these markets and would have to trade under World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules (https://theconversation.com/no-deal-seven-reasons-why-a-wto-only-brexit-would-be-bad-for-britain-102009).
To avoid this, the UK has been negotiating new deals with a number of countries that will take effect in the event of a no-deal Brexit. It has signed 15 agreements, covering 46 countries (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/uk-trade-agreements-with-non-eu-countries-in-a-no-deal-brexit).

But most of these fail to cover human rights. Not only are human rights clauses embedded in the EU’s trade deals (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/thinktank/en/document.html?reference=EPRS_BRI(2019)637975), they are something the UK government has insisted it attaches a high value to (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/13/post-brexit-trade-partners-ask-uk-to-lower-human-rights-standards)."

https://www.globalpolicyjournal.com/blog/26/11/2019/human-rights-are-getting-cut-britains-post-brexit-trade-deal-negotiations


Good book "b.t.w.":
"Forced to Be Good: Why Trade Agreements Boost Human Rights"
https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7591/j.ctt7zdx1

You know when i read those brexit comments of how the "unelected EU bureaucrats" are cheating the common man and send terrorists to the UK, overriding british law and order, how they steal their fish and which laws and bananas are bent so that "the EU" (of which Britain was a member) gets more advantage and so on..

And the EU is keeping calm all the time and tries to convince and negotiate, and then reading the Sun or the Express or those brexiters' answers not only in the video above - this is so unbelievably DUMB.
So Farages's friend Frisby makes a song called 17 million f' offs, and this is the intended message to the EU, and the latter is so thankful :haha:
No one outside of Britain should be sorry for brexit, i take it a bit more anger would be in order, and more honest :03:

[Catfish]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu/fears-of-chaotic-brexit-rise-as-johnson-heads-for-last-supper-in-brussels-idUSKBN28J0OA

Last chance? But there are stlll three weeks ... :03:

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY7qB-Nz69U

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8b5fkoaT1M

[Rockstar]

No Deal would be painful – but in the long term regaining control will suit Britain

Try to see it from the perspective of the Europeans: for decades the UK has been an unwilling but productive partner in the Grand Projet. While the Brits have pontificated about the dangers of the Brussels regulatariat, we are as responsible as anyone for codifying, writing and setting up the enforcement mechanisms necessary to regulate Europe. And now we want to do it all for ourselves? That is genuinely scary for many European nations, who recognise the dangers to their own economies from the potential of a less regulated, more productive and more competitive UK.


Britain is a potential threat to Europe across the whole economic sphere. From labour legislation to the regulation of goods and services we could backdoor into Europe if we are given the chance. If we can’t agree to a special trade deal, then WTO rules it should be, unless we can agree something better. A ‘no deal’ will be massively sub-optimal in the short term for the UK. But Europe, which fears competition from the UK exposing their own lack of competitiveness, has just as much to be worried about.


The immediate effect of a ‘no deal’ will be yet another tumble in perceptions of the UK. On the back of Covid damage, political ineptitude and the threats of break-up, the UK is screaming ‘sell’ signals to the global market.

But I wonder if the Eurocracy actually understand better than our own government what the UK has achieved by Brexit. The reason they are so nervous is because they see the prospects for the UK looking better and better:




The UK has re-established its grip on monetary sovereignty, (we never actually lost it), meaning we can print as much money as we require to reflate and reconfigure our economy without any threat from Europe.
We have fiscal sovereignty meaning we can spend that money however we wish to – on regional and industrial policy and stimulus.
By exiting Europe, we regain national sovereignty, which boils down to the right to determine exactly how we succeed or fail as a nation. The UK has re-established mastery of its own economic destiny. Brussels has no say.

Aside from the competitive threat of a new UK, the obvious threat to Europe is that exit might start to look attractive to nations struggling within the monetary and fiscal restrictions of the Euro.

https://capx.co/no-deal-would-be-painful-but-in-the-long-term-regaining-control-will-suit-britain/

[Skybird]

Uh, makes a lot of sense?
Yeah, makes much sense?

It does, its a terms&conditions settings to keep on trading to mutual benefit with another partner added to their list of trade partners. They lose nothing there, but have the eU out of the equation. As something valid for the time until they have negotiated a final and new dela with canda, this makes a lot of sense. Its called pragmatism, and mounts no additional costs or losses.

[Catfish]

Alright, we'll see in a year. Or ten. :)

[Skybird]

We will see when Canada and the UK have signed their new, to-be-negotiated trade agreement, which probably still is some years away. Or not. The UK stunned us with the announcement today they signed deals with Iceland and Norway.

---------------------------------

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-55248502


The clash of ideologies, clear from the start, is still very much present.

[Jimbuna]

We will see when Canada and the UK have signed their new, to-be-negotiated trade agreement, which probably still is some years away. Or not. The UK stunned us with the announcement today they signed deals with Iceland and Norway.

---------------------------------

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-55248502

Hey! Look five posts up :/\\k:

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4YOLS4bTpQ

[mapuc]

This is my own belief

If UK leave with no deal on Dec 31. Some of other EU member states will make directly deal with UK. I could very well imagine Denmark bypassed The EU and made a fishing deal with UK and the same when it comes to France.

Markus

[Skybird]

Hey! Look five posts up :/\\k:
Yes, your posted video made me first aware of the deals with Norway and Iceland. Do I miss something?

[Jimbuna]

This is my own belief

If UK leave with no deal on Dec 31. Some of other EU member states will make directly deal with UK. I could very well imagine Denmark bypassed The EU and made a fishing deal with UK and the same when it comes to France.

Markus

The EU won't allow any member state to make trade deals with non EU members Markus.

[Rockstar]

This is my own belief

If UK leave with no deal on Dec 31. Some of other EU member states will make directly deal with UK. I could very well imagine Denmark bypassed The EU and made a fishing deal with UK and the same when it comes to France.

Markus


A perfect example of a European's illusion of sovereignty.

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/p.../trade-policy/ (https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/trade-policy/)

Im astonished at the number of Europeans that still think the E.U. is like a NAFTA or just some fellas getting together on the weekends for drinks and cigars to work out trade 'stuff'.

[Jimbuna]

Yes, your posted video made me first aware of the deals with Norway and Iceland. Do I miss something?

Just my copyright fee :)

[Rockstar]

So if its NOT the member states but rather the European Union which legislates and concludes international trade agreements. How is that Germany made the news with its deal with the devil to become the energy hub of European Union?


sorry maybe this belongs in the German politics thread.

[Skybird]

A perfect example of a European's illusion of sovereignty.


https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/trade-policy/



Im astonished at the number of Europeans that still think the E.U. is like a NAFTA or just some fellas getting together on the weekends for drinks and cigars to work out trade 'stuff'.
We know that, Rockstar, its oild news to us "Europeans". Some of us are more and some of us are less happy with it. A lot of legislation also has crucial superdomiance and surveillance by the eU, with natiponal aparliaments beign disempowered. But there are also fields where the EU is not con control (yet).



My problem with your depiction of the EU is that you imply the EU already were a full and complete superstate. It is not there yet, it wants to get there but it is not yet there. And I hope it breaks apart again before it reaches there. Much "obedience" of national government still is voluntary, and not legally enforceable by the EU. Letting the EU certify vaccines for exmaple is a volntary move by national goivenrments, but it is not written soverignty claim by the Eu that only the EU shall certify it. Defence policy is another field where the EU simply has absolutely no say. And there are more, but I do not care to list them all explicitly.



You simply are many years ahead in time when you imply the EU is a state already now. It isn't. And fore the time bein g, Germany, France, Spain, Poland, Italy etc keep conituing being four different states - not one state. They opbey certain rulkes threy have given themselves, like the trade in NAFTA follows certain rules all three states have agreed to comply with.

[Catfish]

@Rockstar If you really think the partaking nations in the EU give up their loose bond for a federation.. i'd have a bridge for sale to you :D

[MGR1]

What about Scotland or Ireland leaving the UK then?

It does have to be said that a no-deal Brexit makes Scottish independence even more difficult if not impossible on economic grounds.

Thus a no-deal is actually in the interests of Unionists in Scotland, regardless of what popular opinion might say. After all their primary concern is the continued existance of the Union regardless of the democratic wishes of any segment of the populace.

You could say that from their perspective it's a perfect opportunity to bring the Nationalists to heel.:hmmm:

Mike.

[Jimbuna]

Boris arrived in Brussels almost an hour ago so tonight should give us a more definitive picture of the state of play but |I'll still be watching the football on the tv.

It can wit until tomorrow as far as I'm concerned.

[Skybird]

It does have to be said that a no-deal Brexit makes Scottish independence even more difficult if not impossible on economic grounds.

How is that? I was under the impression that formally Londons permission for another referendum is needed (from an idealistic POV I say it is not, but that is not the point here), and if it succeeds and the EU embracing Scotland and wills to accept that it will be a net receiver, not as net contributor, what then is there in no-deal Brexit that makes Scotish "independence" more difficult and unlikely? Even more so since the EU probably would embrace Scotland, if for no other reason than to piss London?

Of cours you are never independent if you need someobdy else to pay your bills. And I am strictly against accepting any more states into the EU who are not net contributors, but net-takers. EUcrats of course see this different, sicne they know it is the tax payers shouldering the bill, not the EUcrats themselves.

[Catfish]

[...] You could say that from their perspective it's a perfect opportunity to bring the Nationalists to heel.:hmmm:
Mike.
Thanks for the info :)

With an ironic hint: Maybe they could hire Dominic Cummings, he did so well for brexit and i heard he is looking for a job :03:

[mapuc]

A perfect example of a European's illusion of sovereignty.

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/p.../trade-policy/ (https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/trade-policy/)

Im astonished at the number of Europeans that still think the E.U. is like a NAFTA or just some fellas getting together on the weekends for drinks and cigars to work out trade 'stuff'.

I know

The Danish politicians have relinquished about 90% of Denmark's sovereignty over the last 30-40 years.
Furthermore
The Finance Act, which has been negotiated between the Danish parties, must be approved by the EU

Markus

[Catfish]

I know [...]
Well i don't know. Denmark is usually seen as a model for economical and social success. What is so bad now?

[Rockstar]

I'll ask again why was the Merkelreich making international trade agreements with Putin and his old east German cronies. But other E.U. member states are expected to rely on the European Union to make trade agreements?

[Catfish]

Yes, this whole project is pretty dumb. Not out of malice, but mere incompetence.
But look at the bright side, regarding blunder you will never walk alone.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/nord-stream-2-usa-deutschland-1.4720758

[mapuc]

I made some research, mostly because I could not remember who many percentage the Danish Fishery caught in British waters.

40 % per year or in money 161239957,44 Euro/1.2 bn Danish Kroner.

Markus

[Skybird]

I'll ask again why was the Merkelreich making international trade agreements with Putin and his old east German cronies. But other E.U. member states are expected to rely on the European Union to make trade agreements?
Its as much possible or impossible as Poland's bid to have US gas tankers landing gas in Danish terminals, together with Norwegian gas, and from there delivering it via pipeline through the Baltic to Poland where it then gets disrtuibuted into the rest of Europe, with Pland beign in control. Its the main reason why the Polish are against the German pipeline - both pipelines are rivals, would even cross each other in the Baltic. Poland wants the transfer fees, and the control. I do not want them to have that. They cost us enough already, and they kill our nerves enough already.

Also, energy is not just linked to "trade" by EU legal terms, but "energy security". Different regulations. Else the European courts would have been called up and intervened. Poland would have had a igh interest to do that, if it saw any chances.

Finally, and that is a bit difficult for Americans to understand since they are so far away - Russia is Europe'S neighbour. Not like with the Aleutan gap in Aaska, but directly, you see: you literally can walk over a border and be in Russia here. We need to get along with them at much closer distance than you do. And any consequences good or bad affect us much more directly than you. :03: And we would prefer being able to avoid building another iron curtain once again.

And in the end they piss us a lot less than Trump has in recent years.:O: I did not hear you demanding that we should boycott you and stop trading and talking to you. Different to Trump, the Russians have always honoured their trade treaties with Europe, have not uniliaterally escalated into conflicts or threatend to cut us short of something.

Thats the bad thing when one allows somebody like Trump hijacking ones own state - one looses the moral high ground, you see.

Anyway, it seems North Stream 2 gets completed, and maybe European capitals have turned more realiostic about what to expect of Biden'S America in the next four years. And even if Biden is more friendly (I think he will be better in manners and tone, but also play America First) - who tells us that in four years Trump or someobdy like him will not come back? The proof of concept has been presented. A Trumpostrophy can happen again, that means - and even worse next time.

We will not trust America again after the past four years, that simple it is. And the US liquified gas still is too bad in quality, and way too expensive. If you really want to sell it to us this desperately, you maybe should have made a far better offer, then you woudl ave fpound more customers. But as it is, "so many" want it that Grmany has stopped plannign for a US gas terminal in Wilhelmshaven. Absolutely zero demand, not a single customer reported interest. Nobody. Too bad quality, too expensive.

[Skybird]

And another dealdine has been passed in the Brexit soap. Now it should be Sunday, they say. And I just had an alc-free Erdinger Weissbier. Which statement weighs heavier?

[Rockstar]

From what I've read Poland sounded the alarm over 15 years ago about Germany and Russia making love again. Your media spends years demonizing Poland as 'far right' then has the audacity to turn around and makes deals with Putin and his East German spies. Once again the Reich and Russia cutting up Poland, a fellow member of the European Union and NATO.

For all the pro-E.U. rhetoric I thought surely Germany would have been interested in strengthening the Union rather tearing it apart for its own nationalist goals. But its OK you just keep blaming the U.S. Doesn't bother me because I know better. Incidentally over here we call Poland a stalwart ally. https://www.state.gov/u-s-relations-with-poland/ The U.K. is an ally too and we owe France a lot as well. Good luck. ;)

[Skybird]

[QUOTE=Rockstar;2712633]From what I've read Poland sounded the alarm over 15 years ago about Germany and Russia making love again. /QUOTE]
The plan for project "Baltic Pipe" to bring gas from Norwegian fields via Denmark to Poland dates back to 2001. The plan to add US tanker tem rinals in denmark and link them to this pipeline, so that US gas could unload in Denmark and sent to Poland and from ther ebeign distrubuted across Eastern Europe, later was added.

So go figure. The Poles always play the Nazi or GER-RUS-conspiracy card if they want to trump us. It comes and it goes in regular intervals, like demands for ever more war reparations. We are used to it.

Meanwhile, what the US is really about and has headaches from:

https://www.nsenergybusiness.com/news/us-shale-industry/

https://www.desmogblog.com/2019/08/08/bleak-financial-outlook-us-fracking-industry

Thats why the US is against Nord Stream 2: its highly invested-into fracking industry is in danger to collapse, and much money going amiss. Try to tell Santa Claus that this is not the real motive, but dont try to tell me.


Next time you need to sell your gas so desperately, don't overprice it by 30-40%, and give it better quality with less levels of toxic pollutions from fracking extraction. Make a better offer. At least, make your offer better than the bid by the Russians. We tried to find new customers for US gas import raises. There was zero demand. We planned to build a terminal for it, as an appeasement offer. But what use is a terminal if there is no demand.



Lousy offers are not competitive. America is capitalist. It should understand that.


Hoooch - this is the UK thread.

[Catfish]

[...] Your media spends years demonizing Poland as 'far right' then has the audacity to turn around and makes deals with Putin and his East German spies. Once again the Reich and Russia cutting up Poland, a fellow member of the European Union and NATO. [...]
Not much to do with each other, has it?

"The populists of Budapest and Warsaw are blackmailing the EU over the rule of law. They cannot be allowed to succeed"

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/10/for-europe-losing-britain-is-bad-keeping-hungary-and-poland-could-be-worse
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics_in_Poland
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/jinamoore/polands-far-right-is-trying-to-take-away-womens-rights-and-t
https://borgenproject.org/about-human-rights-in-poland/
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-poland-rights-ombudsman-idUSKCN1TK1DS


In a lot of cases, the EU is the only hope to at least have a bit of influence on a government, from workers' rights to breeching international law and human rights. Trade can also be a means of pressure on dictatorships b.t.w., i guess the good old USA is not a newcomer here, with their hegemonial attitude and admittedly sometimes positive effect on certain countries.

And you can of course call this an unrightful interference into internal affairs of the governing polish PiS "law and order" party, or any other country.
Also, of course, this is the main drive for general anti EU propaganda, the old sods and nationalists do not want younger or enlightened people, to have their century old blunder and disregard for their population exposed.

But i already am aware that you only write this to stir the pot. I'll try to not take the bait anymore :03:

[Jimbuna]

Back OT

And another dealdine has been passed in the Brexit soap. Now it should be Sunday, they say. And I just had an alc-free Erdinger Weissbier. Which statement weighs heavier?

No real surprise there then.

What does surprise me is neither side has simply stated there is no point going on with the negotiations.

[Jimbuna]

So, the EU's proposal for fisheries if there is no deal is.....a no change free-for all for another year.....

GET STUFFED!

https://i.postimg.cc/RZcSBWtm/dsfo11h.jpg (https://postimg.cc/5X2d5NpK)

[Skybird]

Back OT



No real surprise there then.

What does surprise me is neither side has simply stated there is no point going on with the negotiations.
And the next relativization. Dominic Raab said that negotiations are only "unlikely" to go beyond Sunday. Before that it was said that Sunday at the latest a decision will be made.



Wishy-washy, how much I hate this. People talking like that to me have a hard time getting along well with me for long. :arrgh!:

[Skybird]

Not much to do with each other, [...] am aware that you only write this to stir the pot. I'll try to not take the bait anymore :03:
However lets not ignore that the PIS is very poluar and was voted with majority of seats in parliament.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Polish_parliamentary_election

This limits the claim that foreign institutions must protect the Polish people from themselves. And different to Trump, Kaczynski's effect on international affairs is very limited. He annoys us, and Poland costs us a lot of money (nobody forces us to play ball with this...), but he cannot do real damage. Trump could, and has.

Let the Polish people sort this out amongst themselves.

[Moonlight]

^ Oi! you bloody muppets, this is the UK thread, bugger off. :o

[Skybird]

^ We are from the EU, we just cannot leave you alone.

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6A_7cK-0Pg

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flVCJw_UOqU

[Moonlight]

I don't blame the EU for trying to get as much out of these Brexit negotiations as they can, they are fighting for their very survival, if the UK prospers outside of the EU it will only be a matter of time before more countries decide that they could do better outside of the EU too.
If anyone's going to blink in the next few days it will be Bozo the clown, getting any deal through parliament is going to be the big stumbling block though and, it could probably be the final nail in the coffin for his Prime Ministership if he backs a bad deal now.

Boris-Johnson-exit-date.
2021 - 13/8 Hmmmm, not good odds, it might be better to have a punt on the next Tory leader, Rishi Sunak at 100/30, Hmmmm, much better. :yep:

[Catfish]

^ Oi! you bloody muppets, this is the UK thread, bugger off. :o
"Heute der Thread, morgen die ganze Welt" :O:

[Catfish]

"Former Australian leaders split on trade relationship with EU"
Australia's Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull warned Britain the Australia-style trade deal might not be the best option

https://www.lbc.co.uk/business/d0b927effa484d7cb40a75d268d1d07f/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/12/11/malcolmturnbull-warns-britain-trading-eu-australian-terms-brexit/


(Also found this site, seems to list up recent developments with a good overview:
https://www.newsnow.co.uk/h/UK/Brexit?search=eu)

[Skybird]

The eU is EXTREMELY protective when it comes to famring and agriculutral goods, so in these areas the UK must expect bad things and great deal of unfairness. Third world countries wanting to sell such things in Europe can sing a song of this.

[Catfish]

"Your occasional reminder that an “Australia-style deal” is also a “Sierra Leone-style deal”, a “Guam-style deal”, a “Libya-style deal” or a "Narnia-style deal".:03:

"The reason the Conservative right wing wanted to leave was
in order to free the UK from EU standards on workers’ rights, consumer goods and the environment.
Given that, the only way the EU can give Britain’s exporters access to its market is if there are penalties agreed in advance for divergence from these standards."

I tend to agree to this position. Similar standards also exist in CETA, or the WTO rules.
Worker's rights and a protected environment are not in Rees-Mogg's interests of course.

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROgy6DHvun4

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD_jIkitIBg

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaRfGzee6EU

[mapuc]

If it couldn't get any worse.

The Norwegian Prime minister has said Norway will block EU from fishing in their waters if there's no deal.

Markus

[UglyMowgli]

If it couldn't get any worse.

The Norwegian Prime minister has said Norway will block EU from fishing in their waters if there's no deal.

Markus


Norway could ban European AND UK fishing boats from its waters from January 1 as a result of Brexit talk failures - potentially scuppering Britain's first post-EU fisheries agreement.

[Catfish]

@Mapuc Hasn't the prime minister said he will block Norway's waters for the EU and the UK ? :hmmm:

https://www.reuters.com/article/britain-eu-norway-fisheries/norway-warns-it-could-block-eu-british-fishing-vessels-from-jan-1-idINKBN28L1ZP

"Norway may close access to its fishing waters to European and British vessels from Jan. 1, its fisheries minister said on Friday"

And the reason:

" ... because a trilateral fisheries deal Oslo wants with the European Union and Britain has not been concluded."

Which should not be a big problem for the UK, since they do not have enough trawlers to catch all their own fish anyway.
The biggest problem exists for The Netherlands and France, since they have the big fishing fleet they built because the UK had sold fishing rights to them.
Will those treaties be null and void after brexit?

But also a problem for Denmark of course, I guess they will not want to go as far as Greenland to catch their fish.

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oot7bBi6O5U

[Catfish]

^ I do not watch the vids anymore, but the comments are telling.
So the EU is the ENEMY.

[Jimbuna]

MPs will not be awarded a pay rise for the coming year.

The Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority - the independent body which sets MPs' pay - said in October that MPs could be in line for a £3,000 pay rise if its usual formula was applied.

But it now says such a rise would "be inconsistent" and "would not reflect the reality that many constituents are facing" because of the pandemic.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/55278314

My heart bleeds for them.

[mapuc]

@Mapuc Hasn't the prime minister said he will block Norway's waters for the EU and the UK ? :hmmm:

https://www.reuters.com/article/britain-eu-norway-fisheries/norway-warns-it-could-block-eu-british-fishing-vessels-from-jan-1-idINKBN28L1ZP

"Norway may close access to its fishing waters to European and British vessels from Jan. 1, its fisheries minister said on Friday"

And the reason:

" ... because a trilateral fisheries deal Oslo wants with the European Union and Britain has not been concluded."

Which should not be a big problem for the UK, since they do not have enough trawlers to catch all their own fish anyway.
The biggest problem exists for The Netherlands and France, since they have the big fishing fleet they built because the UK had sold fishing rights to them.
Will those treaties be null and void after brexit?

But also a problem for Denmark of course, I guess they will not want to go as far as Greenland to catch their fish.

You are right I stand corrected.

Markus

[Skybird]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaRfGzee6EU
"None of this should come as a surprise."

Indeed. What it means is they have to finally understand that both sides' positions simply are incompatible. And always have been.

Reality denial does not change this. Lets finally brexit, and then "barter" trading goods and leave it to that.

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZVrj9igYDo

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XsBh3AmUgY

[Catfish]

Better fits here ^
Though i still think the origin of these vids can be found in an eastern part of the world :03:

It is so ridiculous to let it all fail because of this "fish" idiocy, while i am not sure whether there is not another problem called jingoism. Threats to actually use force against non-UK fishing boats, really?
Can we build a fish wall in the North sea, some signs for cods to not pass it, or give them blue passports?

Fish adds about 0,1 to 0,4 percent of the british economy ok.
So it is a national treasure, or most important, or interlocked with pride and patriotism, whatever. I better not say what i think of such .. ok let it be.

I read 90 percent of the UK fished by british trawlers is being sold to the EU.
10 percent of the british fish catches is consumed within the UK.

The "rest" of the fish, which is much more, has already been sold to the EU for a decade to come, in asmuch the UK has sold a good part of their fish in form of permits to Denmark, the Dutch, and France, and some other nations in the EU, for a lot of money.
So i ask again, what happens to those treaties? They paid, built up their fishing fleets for a lot of money relying on the UK, and now what? The dutch being a bit angry is an understatement.

And when the UK has ramped up their own fishing fleet for a lot of money in ten years or so to be even able to do all the fishing alone, they will have to sell all this fish. To the EU. As they do now.
:k_confused:

[Skybird]

^ 2012, Catfish. The yhyvde been there already, British trawler calling the navy to help against ramming and bullying French fisherboats.


And no, its not just about fishing.

[skidman]

Fish adds about 0,1 to 0,4 percent of the british economy ok.
So it is a national treasure, or most important, or interlocked with pride and patriotism, whatever.

Isn't the whole Brexit process overloaded with national pride and emotions? And even worse: Isn't it a process in which the old with their sentiments, symbolics, and illusions from the past ruin it for the younger, stealing their chances and dreams? Hopefully negotiations will be terminated soon. I'm admittedly fed up with the whole matter. Any deal is appreciated, a no deal outcome is not that bad either. Turn the page and let's stay friends.

[Jimbuna]

Isn't the whole Brexit process overloaded with national pride and emotions? And even worse: Isn't it a process in which the old with their sentiments, symbolics, and illusions from the past ruin it for the younger, stealing their chances and dreams? Hopefully negotiations will be terminated soon. I'm admittedly fed up with the whole matter. Any deal is appreciated, a no deal outcome is not that bad either. Turn the page and let's stay friends.

Post of the week :up:

For the record: I don't put too much emphasis on the videos myself but they are entertaining and surely have one or two grains of truth in them in parts.