US Politics Thread 2021-24

[vienna]

I am betting that they don't even know the origin of the proud boys - made up as a "guy club" to get a jewish radio intern to score with chicks and drink beer. The name is a goof of a broadway show song from the stage production of Disney's Alladin called Proud of Your Boy. Mysogenistic? Possibly. Chauvinist - yep. But hardly what you'd call a terrorist group.

After all, they're just an idea, like antifa.



...and I've always been amused to see the Trumpettes at their rallies with Trump, singing and dancing along (well, in Trump's case, doing the worst white dad dance ever) to the song once called "The Gay National Anthem":


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zph7YXfjMhg





<O>

[Sonicfire1981]

EL wacko...

It wouldn’t of mattered if it was Trump, or Biden, or Obama, or Hillary Clinton… Nothing would’ve stop Covid from killing those people. While Biden was crying and screaming about Trump not handling it, Covid still claims many more lives even as we speak.

Biden has no answer for it. Fauci had no clue what was going on with it, he still doesn’t know if masks help or not.

Covid is just a terrible mess and any president who would’ve had to deal with it would’ve been held accountable for it. No matter what he did.

Using it as a way of putting Trump down was one of the lowest things that could’ve been done ever. When 9/11 occurred, there were idiots that tried to point at Bush is if he had been the one to have caused it.

wrong. almost eevery other world leader handled it better than him. we have press conferences everyday, where scientists speak and measures are discussed and explained. Our government tells that there's still tough times ahead. While it's certainly for the better that your president-reject does not attent any more pressconferences overriding scientists with his smart ideas ("disinfectant!"), no other world leader that I know of went golfing instead. 4% of world population have 25% of cases and deaths. If that's not a fail I don't know what is.

[3catcircus]

wrong. almost eevery other world leader handled it better than him. we have press conferences everyday, where scientists speak and measures are discussed and explained. Our government tells that there's still tough times ahead. While it's certainly for the better that your president-reject does not attent any more pressconferences overriding scientists with his smart ideas ("disinfectant!"), no other world leader that I know of went golfing instead. 4% of world population have 25% of cases and deaths. If that's not a fail I don't know what is.

Almost every other world leader lied and covered up what was going on and it finally caught up to them - and we're seeing the sh!t job they're doing in regards to vaccination - *despite* the US sending doses around the world to give to them.

More importantly - you can't lock yourself away until covid-19 stops. It will never go away because it is a coronavirus and will seasonally return like every other coronavirus. There are already 4000 known mutations of covid 19.

Did you stop and hide when the h1n1 flu killed an untold number? Untold because here in the US, the Obama-Biden administration's response was to just stop counting them...

[Skybird]

This is depressing. This shows what Trump has done in his past 4 years. Denied every claim that was credible, discredited people like Fauci, and thus thousands of more lives were lost because of his recklessness. That is why we blame Trump for some of the issues we had with COVID- many people would still be alive if he had followed science and fact and had not spread misinformation. He probably would still be president if he had handled COVID better early on. He has also caused social divisions between people in America to only run deeper, he has turned Americans against one another and brainwashed millions into following him blindly. The capitol riot (or siege, whatever you want to call it) is proof of how many he brainwashed. He told them to march right up the steps of Capitol Hill and "stop the steal". There was no steal, period. He was eventually forced into telling the rioters to go home, even then there was no hint of sincerity.

I get made fun of sometimes in school for supporting the Democrats. I get called "bidofile" (because kids in school say that Joe Biden is a pedophile and so since that I am a democrat I must be a pedophile too :shifty::roll: )
Heck, these are my own friends teasing me. This is proof of him turning Americans against each other, to what feels like the point of physical violence.

I rest my case too. I don't want to start a fight with what I just said.

:up:

Nice broadside, all rounds on target.

[Buddahaid]

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/2009-pandemic-timeline.html

https://www.vox.com/2020/4/15/21210210/coronavirus-covid-19-national-strategic-stockpile

[Catfish]

@3catcircus:

I thought Biontech ('Pfizer' being the distributing company) just sent a lot of the vaccine to the US? The US intends to send vaccine to other countries, but not yet afaik. Of course there is Covax, but you know ...

The virus may never go away but all other did not as well. You can only stop their further spread and infection by vaccination (some people will still be infected, but the number will be very small. Not a "pandemic" by any measure).

What do you propose?

[Texas Red]

wrong. almost eevery other world leader handled it better than him. we have press conferences everyday, where scientists speak and measures are discussed and explained. Our government tells that there's still tough times ahead. While it's certainly for the better that your president-reject does not attent any more pressconferences overriding scientists with his smart ideas ("disinfectant!"), no other world leader that I know of went golfing instead. 4% of world population have 25% of cases and deaths. If that's not a fail I don't know what is.

EL wacko...

It wouldn’t of mattered if it was Trump, or Biden, or Obama, or Hillary Clinton… Nothing would’ve stop Covid from killing those people. While Biden was crying and screaming about Trump not handling it, Covid still claims many more lives even as we speak.

Biden has no answer for it. Fauci had no clue what was going on with it, he still doesn’t know if masks help or not.

Covid is just a terrible mess and any president who would’ve had to deal with it would’ve been held accountable for it. No matter what he did.

Using it as a way of putting Trump down was one of the lowest things that could’ve been done ever. When 9/11 occurred, there were idiots that tried to point at Bush is if he had been the one to have caused it.

Remember when Italy used to be the number 1 country with new COVID cases and deaths? Remember when several other countries used to be damn near the top of number 1 COVID cases and deaths? This was back in March-May, and guess what? they are hardly mentioned anymore, now it’s the US that is far ahead of others in number of COVID cases and deaths. And the reason why all the other countries are behind us is because their leaders realized the danger this disease posed and took appropriate action to make sure that they didn’t reach the spot where we are currently.

World leaders- besides the president- have handelde COVID better than us. And look at how many less COVID cases and deaths those countries have:
https://i.postimg.cc/DwDSG14v/943-F422-D-BC57-49-D0-B880-D4355199-B52-C.png

I think that the pictures speaks perfectly as to how many countries lowered their cases and deaths by handling the disease properly.

[Sonicfire1981]

Almost every other world leader lied and covered up what was going on and it finally caught up to them
You spelled "Our former president" wrong. when what others do is called "lying", we need a new word for him.

- and we're seeing the sh!t job they're doing in regards to vaccination - *despite* the US sending doses around the world to give to them.

how long - do you think - does it take to organise vaccinations in that proportion? do you really think your new administration took over the most effective plan ever created by an president, and threw it out the window, then silenced everybody involved in that, then covered all that silencing up? at least this administration did not skip on ordering more doses.

[Rockstar]

This is depressing. This shows what Trump has done in his past 4 years. Denied every claim that was credible, discredited people like Fauci, and thus thousands of more lives were lost because of his recklessness. That is why we blame Trump for some of the issues we had with COVID- many people would still be alive if he had followed science and fact and had not spread misinformation. He probably would still be president if he had handled COVID better early on. He has also caused social divisions between people in America to only run deeper, he has turned Americans against one another and brainwashed millions into following him blindly. The capitol riot (or siege, whatever you want to call it) is proof of how many he brainwashed. He told them to march right up the steps of Capitol Hill and "stop the steal". There was no steal, period. He was eventually forced into telling the rioters to go home, even then there was no hint of sincerity.

I get made fun of sometimes in school for supporting the Democrats. I get called "bidofile" (because kids in school say that Joe Biden is a pedophile and so since that I am a democrat I must be a pedophile too :shifty::roll: )
Heck, these are my own friends teasing me. This is proof of him turning Americans against each other, to what feels like the point of physical violence.

I rest my case too. I don't want to start a fight with what I just said.


Oh dear lawd baby jesus. You are NOT a democrat your friends are not republicans. You're young highly impressionable kids in school with a bright future ahead of you. The last thing this country needs is to ruin your childhood by turning you into members of some freaking political party.

Always bare in mind, what we are today rests in what we thought yesterday, and our current thoughts forge our future life. I'd suggest run far from the contentious trivial arguments of old men. In case you haven't noticed by now they have solved nothing they're like dogs who chase their own tail. Forget the party identity crap, its rotten and stinks, it makes you a slave. Instead strive to find peace within first and a passion, surround yourself with like minded people you can grow and share good ideas with. Make your thoughts about figuring out productive ways to create a better place and benefit others dream big.

[MaDef]

Then refute it. Tell us why he’s wrong. Don’t just say “he’s wrong” and completely fail to explain why.

The kid’s not even out of highschool yet and he’s better at debating politics than you.
I didn't say he was wrong, I stated his statement was bull****, there is a difference. (to be clear I am speaking only about the first paragraph, the rest was a personal account and really isn't relevant one way or the other to me).

The first paragraph is nothing more than a regurgitation of liberal talking points, and those talking points are based on exaggerations, omissions, and fabrications. so there really isn't anything to debate.

[Buddahaid]

You could say Trump had a small hand in it.....

[Sonicfire1981]

The first paragraph is nothing more than a regurgitation of liberal talking points, and those talking points are based on exaggerations, omissions, and fabrications.

what exactky would you call this?

[Sonicfire1981]

Oh dear lawd baby jesus. You are NOT a democrat your friends are not republicans. You're young highly impressionable kids in school with a bright future ahead of you. The last thing this country needs is to ruin your childhood by turning you into members of some freaking political party.

Always bare in mind, what we are today rests in what we thought yesterday, and our current thoughts forge our future life. I'd suggest run far from the contentious trivial arguments of old men. In case you haven't noticed by now they have solved nothing they're like dogs who chase their own tail, don't be a dog. Forget the party identity crap, its rotten and stinks, it makes you a slave, don't be a slave. Instead strive to find peace within first and a passion, surround yourself with like minded people you can grow and share good ideas with. Make your thoughts about figuring out productive ways to create a better place and benefit others.

seconded. remember the old saying, "if you're 20 and not a leftist, you've got no heart. If you're 50 and still a leftist, you got no brains.

[Buddahaid]

seconded. remember the old saying, "if you're 20 and not a leftist, you've got no heart. If you're 50 and still a leftist, you got no brains.

I suppose that makes me left out....

[Catfish]

seconded. remember the old saying, "if you're 20 and not a leftist, you've got no heart. If you're 50 and still a leftist, you got no brains.
I think not all sayings that have been attributed to Churchill make sense :03:

[Sonicfire1981]

I suppose that makes me left out....

You're way better off than left behind.

[Texas Red]

Oh dear lawd baby jesus. You are NOT a democrat your friends are not republicans. You're young highly impressionable kids in school with a bright future ahead of you. The last thing this country needs is to ruin your childhood by turning you into members of some freaking political party.

Always bare in mind, what we are today rests in what we thought yesterday, and our current thoughts forge our future life. I'd suggest run far from the contentious trivial arguments of old men. In case you haven't noticed by now they have solved nothing they're like dogs who chase their own tail. Forget the party identity crap, its rotten and stinks, it makes you a slave. Instead strive to find peace within first and a passion, surround yourself with like minded people you can grow and share good ideas with. Make your thoughts about figuring out productive ways to create a better place and benefit others dream big.

seconded. remember the old saying, "if you're 20 and not a leftist, you've got no heart. If you're 50 and still a leftist, you got no brains.

Well, i like to care about my country and have a standing on things. just because i am young doesn’t mean i cannot do this. Maybe since i don’t vote i can’t call myself a democrat, maybe that’s how it works. Even though i do not vote i just believe that Democrats have what’s best for the country right now. i’m not becoming a diehard permanent member, i’m just supporting who i think will do the best for the country, which Biden will definitely do.

[3catcircus]

@3catcircus:

I thought Biontech ('Pfizer' being the distributing company) just sent a lot of the vaccine to the US? The US intends to send vaccine to other countries, but not yet afaik. Of course there is Covax, but you know ...

The virus may never go away but all other did not as well. You can only stop their further spread and infection by vaccination (some people will still be infected, but the number will be very small. Not a "pandemic" by any measure).

What do you propose?

I'm basing it off of info from someone who was in the White House Medical Office who had actually traveled overseas with the shipments. Not every country got shipments. This person had been involved in delivering vaccines to the states before they started overseas. Any screw up in getting vaccines to people is entirely on the states - whose governors and health depts were not all at the same level of readiness to receive them.

[3catcircus]

Remember when Italy used to be the number 1 country with new COVID cases and deaths? Remember when several other countries used to be damn near the top of number 1 COVID cases and deaths? This was back in March-May, and guess what? they are hardly mentioned anymore, now it’s the US that is far ahead of others in number of COVID cases and deaths. And the reason why all the other countries are behind us is because their leaders realized the danger this disease posed and took appropriate action to make sure that they didn’t reach the spot where we are currently.

World leaders- besides the president- have handelde COVID better than us. And look at how many less COVID cases and deaths those countries have:
https://i.postimg.cc/DwDSG14v/943-F422-D-BC57-49-D0-B880-D4355199-B52-C.png

I think that the pictures speaks perfectly as to how many countries lowered their cases and deaths by handling the disease properly.

There are several factors your aren't accounting for.

1. The reason Italy was slammed last spring is because of all the Chinese slaves returning from Wuhan after the lunar new year to return to work in the garment factories in N. Italy who brought it with them and infected the largely ancient (AVERAGE age was 85+) population, most of whom likely were smokers their whole lives. The extremely close proximity of other european nations and their also having elderly populations meant more people dying there than in the US initially.

2. The significant drop off due to this being a seasonal illness with the lag in reporting affected the true impact of this disease.

3. The US CDC and WHO constantly changing their stories, recurring in entirely inconsistent reporting of actual positive cases.

4. The perverse incentive in the US for hospitals to receuve federal aid means everything was being reported as a covid death even if it was a car wreck or gunshot wound.

5. The significant mutations that make covid more contagious likely make it less deadly.

6. The majority of those in the US outside of nursing homes (where Dem governors sent positive covid cases who then infected the elderly and killed them) are younger and healthier (generally) but we have more fat people and diabetics here.

7. The GIGANTIC population and VAST distances means it takes longer for diseases to spread, so the "accordion effect" is more pronounced than in a smaller country with a smaller and more homogeneous population. In addition, you have fewer multi-generational families be same home than in Europe and Asia.


8. The vastly different outcomes in different US states based upon whether or not they have Democrat governors engaged in draconian lockdowns based upon non-scientific gut feel. California and New York are disasters. Florida and Texas not so much - the ONLY metric that matters is deaths and hospitalizations.

[Sonicfire1981]

There are several factors your aren't accounting for.

1. The reason Italy was slammed last spring is because of all the Chinese slaves returning from Wuhan after the lunar new year to return to work in the garment factories in N. Italy who brought it with them and infected the largely ancient (AVERAGE age was 85+) population, most of whom likely were smokers their whole lives. The extremely close proximity of other european nations and their also having elderly populations meant more people dying there than in the US initially.


Now shshsh and back to your loonie bin, before I'm inclined to ask why there are no old people in the US.
chinese slaves returning to work in italy. ...
the jewish space laser is still #1, but this came close.

[3catcircus]

Now shshsh and back to your loonie bin, before I'm inclined to ask why there are no old people in the US.
chinese slaves returning to work in italy. ...
the jewish space laser is still #1, but this came close.


What would you call massive numbers of low-paid workers working very long hours in factories? Just because it is garments and textiles in Italy instead of a Foxconn iPhone factory in China doesn't make it any different.



https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2019/4/7/exploited-at-every-turn-the-lives-of-italys-chinese-prostitutes


https://summit.news/2020/03/19/migrant-labor-was-to-blame-for-coronavirus-spread-in-both-iran-italy/


I stand by the facts as I've listed them. Prove me wrong.

[Sonicfire1981]

I stand by the facts as I've listed them. Prove me wrong.

First and foremost, the fates described in the articles you provided are horrible and to be condemned. The stem from practises that are illegal in europe (but outragiously) still happen.
But it's not slavery. It seems nit-picky but is really important. Those people act the way they do not because they are owned and held, but out of an economic pressure forced onto them by a system quite similar to the quintessential consequence of a system you cheer to. This is also important. Because all of europe is socialist (remember?), even that (meaning these working conditions) are illegal.
Besides, we are not playing the blame-game but - as a sidenote - I want to point out a quote from your article, that this situation also “helped keep Iran’s economy alive in the face of American sanctions,”

Edit: we're also not sex-trafficing kids and eat their faces. or whatever some also believe.

[bstanko6]

The Dems won’t even start the meetings with the pledge of allegiance! Great unity! Great patriotism!

Like always, garbage in... garbage out!

Perhaps the Chinese national anthem?

https://youtu.be/y5aTq08mBvM

[Buddahaid]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCJknkoh9bY

[skidman]

There are several factors your aren't accounting for.

1. The reason Italy was slammed last spring is because of all the Chinese slaves returning from Wuhan after the lunar new year to return to work in the garment factories in N. Italy who brought it with them and infected the largely ancient (AVERAGE age was 85+) population, most of whom likely were smokers their whole lives. The extremely close proximity of other european nations and their also having elderly populations meant more people dying there than in the US initially.

Yeah, whatever. Still this does not explain, what El Whacko referred to: Comparing the incidence for Italy and the US it is obvious that a country hit very hard in the beginning is doing much better now than the US.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tgd8im4tp9oofhg/US%20-%20Italy.png?raw=1

Is this a "Trump effect"? Don't know, maybe it's a "people like 3catcircus effect"?


2. The significant drop off due to this being a seasonal illness with the lag in reporting affected the true impact of this disease.

The seasonal impact again. There is absolutely no evidence of a strong seasonal effect, the contrary seems to be right:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-18150-z


3. The US CDC and WHO constantly changing their stories, recurring in entirely inconsistent reporting of actual positive cases.

It might be inconsistent, there is however no evidence of a systematic and purposely overassessment of infections and fatalities, the contrary is true:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-18272-4


4. The perverse incentive in the US for hospitals to receuve federal aid means everything was being reported as a covid death even if it was a car wreck or gunshot wound.

You are a victim of disinformation:

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/social-media-posts-make-baseless-claim-on-covid-19-death-toll/


5. The significant mutations that make covid more contagious likely make it less deadly.

Rubbish and again not backed up by any scientific evidence:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-most-worrying-mutations-in-five-emerging-coronavirus-variants/

the ONLY metric that matters is deaths and hospitalizations.

Let's take a look at the deaths then: We see the influence of the so called British mutant and we see the second/third wave has produced more deaths in almost all countries. More infections = more deaths. What was your point again?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3zuieatkqii6wsh/Deaths.png?raw=1

You think this is a political subject, but it isn't. Biochemistry is truth. The mathematics behind epidemiological statistics and modeling is factual. You might not like the outcome, but fantasizing about a conspiracy that uses the pandemic for a political agenda is ridiculous.

[bstanko6]

Beau is a turd kicking communist! You can keep him in China!

[Buddahaid]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI38rS_djEM

[bstanko6]

The pledge is as performative of a ritual as a soldier is press checking his rifle.

Some traditions are safe guards and necessary to ensure a machine works.

And since Joe Fake President Biden wants unity... what’s wrong with showing it?

[Buddahaid]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Du7Q2Y0FVg

[bstanko6]

Or you can refuse to answer the question because you have no answer. Which is typical. You’ve yet to give me one answer on any of my questions that made sense.

[Buddahaid]

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2719711&postcount=12490

[bstanko6]

There you go

[bstanko6]

AHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! I’m actually glad we got Biden now! I haven’t stopped laughing at him since he was rigged into office!!!!! Who are the Dems gonna rig in next.... Seth Rogan?

https://youtu.be/u06DflSIvYU

[Dowly]

What would you call massive numbers of low-paid workers working very long hours [..]?
Americans? :O:

[Sonicfire1981]

Beau is a turd kicking communist! You can keep him in China!

That does not exactly help your credibility, you know...

[Sonicfire1981]

Originally Posted by 3catcircus View Post
What would you call massive numbers of low-paid workers working very long hours [..]?
Americans? :O:

:Kaleun_Cheers:

average americans. The gentlemen making their point for the previous administration clearly belong to the 1% - why else would one defend policy like this?

[Jimbuna]

This looks like payback time has arrived.

President Joe Biden has said his predecessor Donald Trump should not be given access to intelligence briefings because of his "erratic behaviour".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-55960298

[Moonlight]

^My post of the week Dowly. :haha:

[Sonicfire1981]

AHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! I’m actually glad we got Biden now! I haven’t stopped laughing at him since he was rigged into office!!!!! Who are the Dems gonna rig in next.... Seth Rogan?


I take it you will return your stimulus check, correct?

[Sonicfire1981]

And since Joe Fake President Biden wants unity... what’s wrong with showing it?

One important thing to understand is where the divide is. It's not the aisle. It's between those that accept reality and want to do the politicians work (which is ideally improving life for american people, but may encompass imroving ones powerbase to some extend) and those that believe in conspiracy theories, lies about voter fraud, delusions about an illegitimate government and ... jewish space lasers. In other words right through the republican party.
As soon as the GOP manages to cleanse itself of those without democratic believes, "healing", "unity", and consensus are back on the table.

[u crank]

.. and those that believe in conspiracy theories, lies about voter fraud, delusions about an illegitimate government and ... jewish space lasers. In other words right through the republican party.

There are 211 Republican members in the house. Do you think that they all share the views of certain individual members on the GOP side? If you do how about some names?

As soon as the GOP manages to cleanse itself of those without democratic believes, "healing", "unity", and consensus are back on the table.

Do you think that there are no Democrat members of the house that fall into that catagory?

[Sonicfire1981]

There are 211 Republican members in the house. Do you think that they all share the views of certain individual members on the GOP side? If you do how about some names?

of course not, that would be silly. the important thing that you missed is to distance oneself from those individuals; one rotten apple spoils the crate. GOP seems to like "being the party of conspiracy theorists". Others claim to not know anything about .."this qanon, am i saying that right?". so there's also ignorants.

Do you think that there are no Democrat members of the house that fall into that catagory?

i'm 100% certain not a single democrat believes, trump should be president or that democrats eat babies

[3catcircus]

Americans? :O:

Touche...

In all seriousness, though, Americans have become accustomed to cheep sh!t made by foreign indentured servants and mass-produced crappy food.

We'd be better off as a nation if big box stores went away and we refused to import any more Chinese crap.

I'm all my travels to other countries, I've noticed they have better food because it is sourced more locally and is fresh. Whether it is Japan, Korea, Australia, Spain, or any other country Ice been to, the quality is higher. Bright orange egg yolks. Bread freshly baked. Coffee served properly. High quality seafood. It's much better quality than our Wonder bread, Folgers, McDonald's, etc.

That having been said, other products are just sturdier when made here in the US. But people would rather spend a lot less and then replace multiple times target than spending more just once.

[3catcircus]

:Kaleun_Cheers:

average americans. The gentlemen making their point for the previous administration clearly belong to the 1% - why else would one defend policy like this?

Policy like what?

Most Americans would agree with Trump's policies. If you framed the question in a way that didn't reveal they're Trump's doing, even those who oppose him would agree with the policies.

What's not to like about keeping more of your paycheck instead of paying higher taxes? What's not to like about preventing illegal immigration? What not to like about placing your own citizens' interests above those of other countries? What's not to like about not starting any new wars? What's not to like about a president who donated his salary to government agencies to reduce the tax burden on citizens?

Most Americans are tired of being presented with political candidates who are worthless. Who are happy to lie to get elected and then do exactly the opposite of what their constituents want them to do. Who do things that benefit other nations because of political or financial benefits to themselves and their families, friends, and allies at the expense of their own constituents. Pelosi, Biden, Schumer, McConnell, etc. have been in office for *decades* and have achieved nothing for their constituents. Omar, Tlaib, AOC are new but instead of working to make things better, they spend most of their efforts playing the victim and blaming conservatives from other states for problems caused by their own constituents. These are not statesmen working for the people - these are attention-seeking narcissists.

Joe Burden spent *decades* in the Senate and achieved nothing. He's not going to do anything now. In fact, the only thing he's achieved has been looking his pockets - Hunter is getting a book deal. Likewise Harris's homely stepdaughter was awarded a modeling contract. If they really were about service, there would be no book deal or modeling contract - a simple "thanks, but no" would suffice to get the message across.

[u crank]

of course not, that would be silly. the important thing that you missed is to distance oneself from those individuals; one rotten apple spoils the crate. GOP seems to like "being the party of conspiracy theorists".

Other that Rep. Green who are those individuals?

Others claim to not know anything about .."this qanon, am i saying that right?". so there's also ignorants.

So now if you don't know about a conspiracy theory you are ingnorant? Guess I better study up. Will there be a test?

i'm 100% certain not a single democrat believes, trump should be president or that democrats eat babies


Of course not, that would be silly.

[Catfish]

[...] Of course not, that would be silly.
Personally I agree, but "Majority Of Republicans Believe The QAnon Conspiracy Theory Is Partly Or Mostly True, Survey Finds". Fifty. six. percent.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/09/02/majority-of-republicans-believe-the-qanon-conspiracy-theory-is-partly-or-mostly-true-survey-finds/?sh=3b540d75231d
edit: This was in september 2020. People identifying themselves as "republican" (not members of GOP) are about 30 percent believing in quanon theories. Whoever makes those surveys. This survey could also be a conspiracy of course :03:

I first thought that like Trump the republican party did not want to lose any voters, so Proud boys, quanon or whoever queers were just accepted for the numbers and votes, and not driven away. But if they really believe in this...

[Buddahaid]

Personally I agree, but "Majority Of Republicans Believe The QAnon Conspiracy Theory Is Partly Or Mostly True, Survey Finds". Fifty. six. percent.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/09/02/majority-of-republicans-believe-the-qanon-conspiracy-theory-is-partly-or-mostly-true-survey-finds/?sh=3b540d75231d
edit: This was in september 2020. People identifying themselves as "republican" (not members of GOP) are about 30 percent believing in quanon theories. Whoever makes those surveys. This survey could also be a conspiracy of course :03:

I first thought that like Trump the republican party did not want to lose any voters, so Proud boys, quanon or whoever queers were just accepted for the numbers and votes, and not driven away. But if they really believe in this...

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/16/us/flat-earth-conference-conspiracy-theories-scli-intl/index.html

"’It’s difficult to break out of that mindset’
Still, most adherents demonstrate plenty of anti-scientific tendencies. It’s hard to find a flat Earther who doesn’t believe most other conspiracies under the sun; a flat-Earth conference is invariably also a gathering of anti-vaxxers, 9/11 truthers and Illuminati subscribers, to name a few.

It’s that hyper-skeptical mindset that helps flat earthers answer the big questions – like who’s hiding the true shape of the planet from us?

“The ruling elite, from the royal family to the Rockefellers, the Rothschilds … all of those groups that run the world, they’re in on it,” says Weiss."

Personally I don't get why so many have this deep distrust in science. Sure, it's healthy to be skeptical about things, but at some point it gets too propped up with barely supported hypotheses to stand on it's own weight.

[August]

Policy like what?

Most Americans would agree with Trump's policies. If you framed the question in a way that didn't reveal they're Trump's doing, even those who oppose him would agree with the policies.

What's not to like about keeping more of your paycheck instead of paying higher taxes? What's not to like about preventing illegal immigration? What not to like about placing your own citizens' interests above those of other countries? What's not to like about not starting any new wars? What's not to like about a president who donated his salary to government agencies to reduce the tax burden on citizens?

Most Americans are tired of being presented with political candidates who are worthless. Who are happy to lie to get elected and then do exactly the opposite of what their constituents want them to do. Who do things that benefit other nations because of political or financial benefits to themselves and their families, friends, and allies at the expense of their own constituents. Pelosi, Biden, Schumer, McConnell, etc. have been in office for *decades* and have achieved nothing for their constituents. Omar, Tlaib, AOC are new but instead of working to make things better, they spend most of their efforts playing the victim and blaming conservatives from other states for problems caused by their own constituents. These are not statesmen working for the people - these are attention-seeking narcissists.

Joe Burden spent *decades* in the Senate and achieved nothing. He's not going to do anything now. In fact, the only thing he's achieved has been looking his pockets - Hunter is getting a book deal. Likewise Harris's homely stepdaughter was awarded a modeling contract. If they really were about service, there would be no book deal or modeling contract - a simple "thanks, but no" would suffice to get the message across.




This ^

[August]

So now if you don't know about a conspiracy theory you are ingnorant? Guess I better study up. Will there be a test?


I'm a pretty conservative guy with pretty conservative friends and call me ignorant but i had never heard of qanon, the proud boys, the "alt-right" or the many others that the left has been clutching their pearls over. I don't deny that they do or could exist (you can find groups with all sorts of viewpoints if you look hard enough) but I wonder how these groups could be the giant threat that they are made out to be when they are so small they were relatively unknown.

Unless of course this is all just a way to increase the power of the government. Talk of reducing or eliminating the right to free speech and a host of other basic American liberties is now being promoted by the same pearl clutchers and they are using these previously obscure groups as the justification.

I suspect this supposed threat will never really materialize but the loss of our rights will be permanent.

[Onkel Neal]

Same here, wth is qanon? Seems like the democrats know more about this than me or people I know. All these flakey extremists groups are small in numbers yet the msm and democrats, snowflakes and SJW blow them out of proportion. Another case of susceptible people being manipulated by msm and political liars.

[u crank]

Personally I agree, but "Majority Of Republicans Believe The QAnon Conspiracy Theory Is Partly Or Mostly True, Survey Finds". Fifty. six. percent.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/09/02/majority-of-republicans-believe-the-qanon-conspiracy-theory-is-partly-or-mostly-true-survey-finds/?sh=3b540d75231d
edit: This was in september 2020. People identifying themselves as "republican" (not members of GOP) are about 30 percent believing in quanon theories. Whoever makes those surveys. This survey could also be a conspiracy of course :03:

I first thought that like Trump the republican party did not want to lose any voters, so Proud boys, quanon or whoever queers were just accepted for the numbers and votes, and not driven away. But if they really believe in this...

It's true but people are easily led to believe almost anything. And members of the Congress of the USA are not exempt. Why it was not that far back in history that almost every Democrat member of Congress including the leadership believed that President Trump was a Russian asset and that he was elected to office with the assistance of Vlad Putin. Some of those Democrats actually had information that it was not true but continued to spout this consiracy theory on TV almost daily. That guy was Rep. Adam Schiff (D-Ca). Schiff also claimed that he had evidence of this theory but of course he never shared it.

So let's ask a question. Which conspiracy theory, Rep. Green's idiot belief in Q-Anon or Rep. Schiff's idiot belief in a Russian under every bed did or will do more harm?

Imagine for a second that the stars lined up for the Dems and they used the Russian collusion accusation to have Trump removed from office. No amount of belief in any Q-Anon nonsense would have come close to the harm that would have done to the American Republic. But these conspiracy believers were doing everything they could to make it happen. And remember ... they were true believers.

And remarkably few if any have admitted that they were wrong. And many people including a close friend of mine still believe this is true. Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene is going to have to work really hard to catch up to the Dems in Congress if she is going to top them.

[Sonicfire1981]

Same here, wth is qanon? Seems like the democrats know more about this than me or people I know. All these flakey extremists groups are small in numbers yet the msm and democrats, snowflakes and SJW blow them out of proportion. Another case of susceptible people being manipulated by msm and political liars.

That just shows how important education is and a free and unbiased media. mixing ones news-outlets to have a broad view on information is the next best thing. watching Tucker Carlson although it hurts, for example.
the majority of those groups might be small in number (which is untrue - there's a broad range of white supremacists of all sorts of color^^), but they are violent, armed and dangerous. Do you happen to know how many votes the NSDAP received back in the day?

and as a sidenote: do you (not you personally, neil) really believe to be informed enough to call and opose everything that gets called "socialism"?


ignorance isn't really strength, you know.

[August]

.. there's a broad range of white supremacists of all sorts of color^


Do you realize just how silly that statement sounds? Care to rephrase or is this yet another Orwellian Democrat concept we now have to consider as "settled science"?

[u crank]

That just shows how important education is and a free and unbiased media.

It's too bad but both of those ships have sailed. :O:

[3catcircus]

Yeah, whatever. Still this does not explain, what El Whacko referred to: Comparing the incidence for Italy and the US it is obvious that a country hit very hard in the beginning is doing much better now than the US.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tgd8im4tp9oofhg/US%20-%20Italy.png?raw=1

Is this a "Trump effect"? Don't know, maybe it's a "people like 3catcircus effect"?


Countries like Italy are doing much better because the first wave killed all the susceptible elderly and the next wave affects younger, healthier people. The first wave wouldn't have been as bad for Italy if they didn't have multiple generations in the same house - healthier people bring it home with them and then infect their parents or grandparents or great-grandparents.



Italy has a population of roughly 60 million. The US has a population of roughly 330 million. That's a five-fold difference in population. Your graph shows roughly 40,000/million in Italy and 80,000/million in the US. When you consider the difference in population, roughly 2x as many cases for 5x the population isn't a bad ratio. Especially since we don't *really* know how many actual cases because, at least in the US, for a while, multiple positives of the same individual were reported as separate cases and those in close proximity to positives were also counted as cases - and no one has gone back and normalized the data.



The seasonal impact again. There is absolutely no evidence of a strong seasonal effect, the contrary seems to be right:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-18150-z



https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/07/does-covid-19-thrive-in-cold-weather/


https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210202/like-flu-covid-19-may-turn-out-to-be-seasonal


https://bioengineer.org/global-analysis-suggests-covid-19-is-seasonal/


https://ccdd.hsph.harvard.edu/will-covid-19-go-away-on-its-own-in-warmer-weather/


I'd say a host of different entities all reporting similar information that this will probably be seasonal - and many of them recent articles trumps an article from this past summer.



It might be inconsistent, there is however no evidence of a systematic and purposely overassessment of infections and fatalities, the contrary is true:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-18272-4



Who said anything about overassessment? Of *course* the number of infected is higher than those to be lab-confirmed as infected. Which bolsters the argument that CFR and IFR are an order magnitude lower than the authorities report - that is - more people actually infected = a smaller percentage of those infected need hospitalization or end up dying.




You are a victim of disinformation:

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/social-media-posts-make-baseless-claim-on-covid-19-death-toll/

Really? The good Dr. Birx disagrees with you:


https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/04/08/dr_birx_unlike_some_countries_if_someone_dies_with _covid-19_we_are_counting_that_as_a_covid-19_death.html#!


When you get extra money for covid, every death with covid can be counted as from covid.


https://www.cdc.gov/cpr/readiness/funding-covid.htm


Rubbish and again not backed up by any scientific evidence:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-most-worrying-mutations-in-five-emerging-coronavirus-variants/





https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/a-new-strain-of-coronavirus-what-you-should-know


https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/dr-fauci-says-this-is-why-the-latest-covid-mutation-worries-him/ar-BB19O5Ca


https://www.newscientist.com/article/2252699-covid-19-is-becoming-less-deadly-in-europe-but-we-dont-know-why/


This is common-sense Biology 101: it is desirable, if you are a virus, to be able to spread amongst more people without killing them or making them so sick that they are isolated because that means you get replicated to a greater extent.



Let's take a look at the deaths then: We see the influence of the so called British mutant and we see the second/third wave has produced more deaths in almost all countries. More infections = more deaths. What was your point again?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3zuieatkqii6wsh/Deaths.png?raw=1

You think this is a political subject, but it isn't. Biochemistry is truth. The mathematics behind epidemiological statistics and modeling is factual. You might not like the outcome, but fantasizing about a conspiracy that uses the pandemic for a political agenda is ridiculous.


You are showing a *cumulative* chart - the numbers can *only* go up. No one is denying that people get sick and die. What no one wants to talk about or think about is what was going on before covid when no one was actually paying attention to the details. For decades, health organizations have never actually performed laboratory tests for everyone who dies from a respiratory illness. They've all pretty much been suspected cases diagnosed based upon symptoms. Below is from the 2017-2018 flu season, but it still holds regardless of season.



"While flu deaths in children are reported to CDC, flu deaths in adults are not nationally notifiable. In order to monitor influenza related deaths in all age groups, CDC tracks pneumonia and influenza (P&I)-attributed deaths through the National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) Mortality Reporting System. This system tracks the proportion of death certificates processed that list pneumonia or influenza as the underlying or contributing cause of death. This system provides an overall indication of whether flu-associated deaths are elevated, but does not provide an exact number of how many people died from flu. During the 2017-2018 season, the percentage of deaths attributed to pneumonia and influenza (P&I) was at or above the epidemic threshold for 16 consecutive weeks. During the past five seasons, the average number of weeks this indicator was above threshold was 11 (range of 7 to 15 weeks). Nationally, mortality attributed to P&I exceeded 10.0% for four consecutive weeks, peaking at 10.8% during the week ending January 20, 2018.
As it does for the numbers of flu cases, doctor’s visits and hospitalizations, CDC also estimates deaths in the United States using mathematical modeling. CDC estimates that from 2010-2011 to 2013-2014, influenza-associated deaths in the United States ranged from a low of 12,000 (during 2011-2012) to a high of 56,000 (during 2012-2013). Death certificate data and weekly influenza virus surveillance information was used to estimate how many flu-related deaths occurred among people whose underlying cause of death on their death certificate included respiratory or circulatory causes. For more information, see Estimating Seasonal Influenza-Associated Deaths in the United States (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/faq.htm#deaths) and CDC’s Disease Burden of Influenza (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html) page."


No one knows how many died from a specific respiratory disease because they're all lumped in. For all we know, the 2018-2019 flu season could have been the first instance of covid-19 occurring. We have evidence that it was in the wild in the fall of 2019, which means it was likely circulating the year prior as well.



Why did the CDC report minimal flu cases in 2020 but tons of covid deaths? Explain to me how social distancing and masks are effective against flu but not covid when they are transmitted exactly the same way.



No one is saying this is just politics - what I'm saying is that science has been politicized, compounded by "experts" who've forgotten the basics of science (or never understood them to begin with).


1. What CT would you use for PCR tests? How do you know if it is live virus or viral debris when PCR does nothing bu replicate genetic material irrespective.

2. Explain how masks will stop someone from being infected when viral particles are smaller than mask weaves (even N95s)? You may get a smaller viral load from the portion that is contained in exhalate that is partially blocked, but it won't 100% stop you from being infected. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23505369/
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/scientific-brief-sars-cov-2.html

3. Explain why lockdowns preventing people from being outdoors in sunlight is a good thing when studies have shown that inadequate levels of vitamin D can contribute to severity of symptoms from covid infection. It only takes 10-15 minutes without sunscreen for the body to turn cholesterol into vitamin D.

[3catcircus]

It's true but people are easily led to believe almost anything. And members of the Congress of the USA are not exempt. Why it was not that far back in history that almost every Democrat member of Congress including the leadership believed that President Trump was a Russian asset and that he was elected to office with the assistance of Vlad Putin. Some of those Democrats actually had information that it was not true but continued to spout this consiracy theory on TV almost daily. That guy was Rep. Adam Schiff (D-Ca). Schiff also claimed that he had evidence of this theory but of course he never shared it.

So let's ask a question. Which conspiracy theory, Rep. Green's idiot belief in Q-Anon or Rep. Schiff's idiot belief in a Russian under every bed did or will do more harm?

Imagine for a second that the stars lined up for the Dems and they used the Russian collusion accusation to have Trump removed from office. No amount of belief in any Q-Anon nonsense would have come close to the harm that would have done to the American Republic. But these conspiracy believers were doing everything they could to make it happen. And remember ... they were true believers.

And remarkably few if any have admitted that they were wrong. And many people including a close friend of mine still believe this is true. Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene is going to have to work really hard to catch up to the Dems in Congress if she is going to top them.


Its not even whether or not Dems believed it - its that actual evidence of the FBI *knowing* it was all crap and going ahead with the investigation *anyway* before he was even elected - authorized by Obama's DoJ. They actually hid the fact that they knew it was not true.


And once in office, you had government employees who *hated* that Hillary didn't win going out of their way to *find* imagined wrongdoing. "Oh no - Trump asked the Ukraine to figure out why they stopped investigating criminal activities in return for Biden allowing the transfer of foreign aid money from Obama." In what world is it wrong to ask someone to find out why investigation into illegal activities was stopped but proof of no illegal activities results in continuing to try and manufacture evidence of it?


And - let's not get into Adam Schiff - I'll just say that he has a very punchable face and I'm sure he got beat up a lot in school when he was younger because of it.

[3catcircus]

Same here, wth is qanon? Seems like the democrats know more about this than me or people I know. All these flakey extremists groups are small in numbers yet the msm and democrats, snowflakes and SJW blow them out of proportion. Another case of susceptible people being manipulated by msm and political liars.


Funny.


qanon is allegedly this conspiracy that satan-worshipping child-eating pedophiles run a world-wide child sex trafficking ring. This was supposedly initially identified by users on 4chan or 8chan (I don't know which) - which tells you all you really need to know.



Just the idea alone is ridiculous - but there is always a kernel of truth, considering all of the various people in entertainment, government, and political lobbying who've been exposed in various forms of deviancy of the illegal kind


Such as the Lincoln Project looking the other way for a long time that one of their founders was grooming teenage boys in exchange for promises of a career in politics, or the Dem bundler Ed Buck's involvement with drug overdoses of multiple men while Dems looked the other way, or the recent arrests of multiple cast members of a tv show about male cheerleaders due to them grooming and molesting kids. Or the laptop evidence that is alleged to show Hunter Biden in intimacy with his own niece.


Who knows what's true anymore because *no one* in government can be relied upon to tell the truth and do the right thing, morally and ethically.

[bstanko6]

@jimbuna......

AHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Trump doesn’t receive intelligence reports because he is erratic!!!

AHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Yeah... sniffing little girls, packing courts, firing pipelines workers for a fantasy “no fossil fuel world” dream, Cornpop, and still calling Trump the president isn’t erratic?!?!?!


AHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

[bstanko6]

You can’t make this stuff up!!!!

AHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

[Sonicfire1981]

@jimbuna......

AHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Trump doesn’t receive intelligence reports because he is erratic!!!

AHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Yeah... sniffing little girls, packing courts, firing pipelines workers for a fantasy “no fossil fuel world” dream, Cornpop, and still calling Trump the president isn’t erratic?!?!?!


AHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

You don't need to show that "more erratic" is always possible.
Besides you're not helping your cause.

all other statements will have to wait until later.

[bstanko6]

Hey Sonic...

Since you got no response, show another Beau of the Fifth video...

AHAHAHAHAHA!!!

one pig farmer from Nebraska is the only thing dems got for a conscious!

And the funny thing is... Trump signed orders to give these farmers big money.

He profited off Trump... and then slams him!

Typical clown crap. Dems should be called the Bozos!

AHAHAHAHAHA!!!

[Sonicfire1981]

Hey Sonic...

Since you got no response, show another Beau of the Fifth video...

AHAHAHAHAHA!!!

one pig farmer from Nebraska is the only thing dems got for a conscious!

And the funny thing is... Trump signed orders to give these farmers big money.

He profited off Trump... and then slams him!

Typical clown crap. Dems should be called the Bozos!

AHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Stop embarassing yourself and pay attention (that's two points, not one):
I have no ties whatsoever to the Beau of the 5th column. He does make a more convincing argument than you do. But what doesn't?

[bstanko6]

My argument is for A president that is illegitimate.

Trump was a leader the old big club politicians didn’t like or want.

Now we have a moron who was never a leader. And people will die on the hill that he was a good choice.

A corrupt, pedophilic, useless, puppet is not a leader or a good choice.

And people on this forum defend him. And he’s a pedophile. So yeah, I’m pretty pissed off.

[Sonicfire1981]

My argument is for A president that is illegitimate.

Trump was a leader the old big club politicians didn’t like or want.

Now we have a moron who was never a leader. And people will die on the hill that he was a good choice.

A corrupt, pedophilic, useless, puppet is not a leader or a good choice.

And people on this forum defend him. And he’s a pedophile. So yeah, I’m pretty pissed off.

will you prove any of that or are you just throwing accusations around? In germany that post would be punishable by criminal law.

[Von Due]

bstanko6, let me guess: You have bought into this whole QAnon conspiracy mad talk, am I right? Your president a pedo? That's like straight out of a QAnon site. Pizzagate plausible too? You see Trump in an almost religious light. All I hear in your post is the same repeated, unfounded talk I have heard from conspiracy theory followers.

[u crank]

bstanko6, let me guess: You have bought into this whole QAnon conspiracy mad talk, am I right? Your president a pedo? That's like straight out of a QAnon site. Pizzagate plausible too? You see Trump in an almost religious light. All I hear in your post is the same repeated, unfounded talk I have heard from conspiracy theory followers.

Yep. Pretty much sums it up.

[August]

will you prove any of that or are you just throwing accusations around? In germany that post would be punishable by criminal law.


Why should he have to prove anything to the likes of you? FWIW it's far tamer than what the German members of this very forum have been spewing against Trump these past 4 years. Maybe someone ought to inform German authorities of this hate speech by their nationals?

[bstanko6]

I’ve watched Biden on C-Span grabbing and sniffing girls hair, other congressmen pushing him away, Hillary avoiding him for years!

I watched him pardon the ATF for killing women and children during Waco... before it was a tv show!

I watched him make laws that hurt urban black folks for their socio economic status.

But you guys don’t believe me. Again you will die for that hill. And it’s so sad. A lot of young people don’t know this or care! They haven’t seen the real Joe Biden.

Harris Told one truth. He was a racist and she was absolutely right. And now she’s his VP! Any red flags here?

Guys wake up please. Look up Sleepy joes C-Spans on YT from years ago!

You backed the wrong horse.

Trump was not the worse of 2 evils.

[Catfish]

^ This may be, or not. Trump lost.
I am sure there are a lot better men or women in the US who better deserve to be Potus. You are right, the system is crooked.
Only extremely wealthy people can be a candidate, nothing about competence.
But since you have it and will not change it, you have to live with the results.

[bstanko6]

He didn’t lose Catfish... get over it.

The swamp wanted him gone, they arranged it, and now we go to them politically assassinating him.

[3catcircus]

Why should he have to prove anything to the likes of you? FWIW it's far tamer than what the German members of this very forum have been spewing against Trump these past 4 years. Maybe someone ought to inform German authorities of this hate speech by their nationals?

Regardless of where they live, people who have a dislike for Trump's presidency can't even articulate what they're upset about.

"He put kids in cages!" No - Obama did that.

"He colluded with Russia!!" No - Hillary did that.

"He obstructed an investigation!!!" No - Schumer and Pelosi did that.

"He did a quid pro quo with Ukraine!!!11!" No - Biden did that.

"He wrote mean tweets!". Yep - he surely did write tweets designed to trigger and enrage the left - and I thoroughly enjoyed every one of them.

[Sonicfire1981]

Regardless of where they live, people who have a dislike for Trump's presidency can't even articulate what they're upset about.
Yes they can. you just fail to aknowledge this. once called out and presented with facts, it gets suspiciously silent. watch:

"He put kids in cages!" No - Obama did that.
Wrong. The Obama administration built the facility to improve the situation in overcrowded border-patrol-detention-cells. The wirefence inside was meant to separate various groups from each other. separation of families happened only during the trump administration.

"He colluded with Russia!!" No - Hillary did that.

wrong. read the mueller-report. and I'm not talking about the Barr-Take.

"He obstructed an investigation!!!" No - Schumer and Pelosi did that.

Don't know if still wrong, or again. read the mueller report.


"He did a quid pro quo with Ukraine!!!11!" No - Biden did that.

Because Guilliani produced a laptop and claimed it was Hunter Bidens? Right before the debate of the candidates? sounds legit. You could bring us up to speed with the actual proof. Meanwhile we could do a little "whatabout: trump paid more taxes in china than in the US. because he's deep in debt & his endeavours fail to make any profit". Oh right, we don't do those.

"He wrote mean tweets!". Yep - he surely did write tweets designed to trigger and enrage the left - and I thoroughly enjoyed every one of them.

He incited a mob to storm the capital and put the VPs life as well of many others in acute danger. Even if he had no intention & no idea that such a thing could happen (which sounds hardly believable, given he's the greatest president of all times and knows more about crowds than anybody else), its grossly negligent.

Don't you have any real conspiracies to share?

Edit:
[...]Something about how every american now has more money because of the fantastic tax cuts he did for everyone, and by far not only for the richest
I'm just too lazy to go back and look who exactly came up with this nonsense

https://i.postimg.cc/3rmh7Bzy/Unbenannt.jpg

Here's the "Taxcuts for everyone". I took the liberty of marking the average american income with a red line.

[bstanko6]

it must be nice not living in this US and having so much to say.

In fact, all of these other country political analysts have gotten so much wrong, and believed so much of it, the left would be proud.

Sonic... what are you? ex East German resident? I ask because there is no way you would agree whats going on in the states unless you are communist bound.

[Buddahaid]

Oops.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55963121

[Sonicfire1981]

Sonic... what are you? ex East German resident? I ask because there is no way you would agree whats going on in the states unless you are communist bound.

I'm ex mossad, used to work for the Austrian Military Secret Service (HNA - those with the exploding trees), but do mostly freelance work nowadays. Why do you ask?

I fail to see what communism has to do with anything here, and I believe neither do you.

[bstanko6]

YIU ARE A LIAR SONIC!!!!!

If you were truly mussad you know exactly who built those facilities for the illegals. It wasn’t Trump, and Obama separates them in cages!! I know this for a fact, because when Arizona put in lawsuits against the federal government for not taking care of the illegal immigrant issue, we were sending immigrants to jail and back over the border from those facilities as quickly as we could because of Obama’s order!!!!

Either you’re ignorant, or you are a huge liar!!!! I call you out!!!

[bstanko6]

Obama separates the kids and families!!!!

You don’t live here, you have no right to lie about what happens here in this country.

I know this because I had to process those people

[Sonicfire1981]

YIU ARE A LIAR SONIC!!!!!

If you were truly mussad you know exactly who built those facilities for the illegals. It wasn’t Trump, and Obama separates them in cages!! I know this for a fact, because when Arizona put in lawsuits against the federal government for not taking care of the illegal immigrant issue, we were sending immigrants to jail and back over the border from those facilities as quickly as we could because of Obama’s order!!!!

Either you’re ignorant, or you are a huge liar!!!! I call you out!!!

I so hoped we could talk about communism, but instead you get hung up on not reading my remarks properly. It's frustrating, at times.

[Onkel Neal]

Closing this topic for the weekend.

[Onkel Neal]

Ok, let's try this again.

Let's remember to take a second before replying and keep our cool. I know, it can be frustrating sometimes, but this thread is for discussing US politics and there are going to be a wide range of opinions. Feel free to argue your point, just do it without launching personal attacks - - because when one person starts it, then everyone joins in and where will that lead us?

thanks,
Neal

[Skybird]

An illustration for why I think the "Grand Orange Party" has put traditional Reds on the red list of species endangered by extinction. The party is driven by fear and does not dare to break ties with its old nemesis. Orange has and will further take over the red.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/wyoming-gop-censures-rep-liz-cheney-impeachment-vote-75730781?cid=clicksource_4380645_5_heads_hero_live _hero_hed


Edit:
https://www.tagesspiegel.de/images/eher_nicht_ts/26894632/2-format1007.jpg
"Impeachment? Better not..."

(Der Tagesspiegel)

[3catcircus]

An illustration for why I think the "Grand Orange Party" has put traditional Reds on the red list of species endangered by extinction. The party is driven by fear and does not dare to break ties with its old nemesis. Orange has and will further take over the red.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/wyoming-gop-censures-rep-liz-cheney-impeachment-vote-75730781?cid=clicksource_4380645_5_heads_hero_live _hero_hed


Edit:
https://www.tagesspiegel.de/images/eher_nicht_ts/26894632/2-format1007.jpg
"Impeachment? Better not..."

(Der Tagesspiegel)

I think that the GOP realizes they screwed up - the dinosaurs in the party are in a uniparty with their Dem counterparts and just want to go back to looting and pillaging their citizenry like they did before Trump. The ones who support Trump believe in the idea of politicians who look out for their citizens' interests over their own and would happily destroy the GOP to get there job done. The rest are caught in the middle with no idea which way to turn because they've been conditioned over their years in office that the GOP is supposed to be the "polite" party and take their losses even if those losses are due to cheating by their opponents.

[Jimbuna]

There are more than a few on here who thought otherwise I suspect.

US President Joe Biden says he will not lift economic sanctions against Iran until it complies with the terms agreed under a 2015 nuclear deal.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-55972619

[3catcircus]

There are more than a few on here who thought otherwise I suspect.

Translation: "Give me time to put together a pallet of money bigger than the one we gave you when Obama was in office."

[Sonicfire1981]

[...]just want to go back to looting and pillaging their citizenry like they did before Trump. The ones who support Trump believe in the idea of politicians who look out for their citizens' interests over their own [...]

Is this backed by anything or are you just saying this because it sounds nice? I have never seen someone shovelling public funds into their own pocket more openly like the president-reject.

[3catcircus]

Is this backed by anything or are you just saying this because it sounds nice? I have never seen someone shovelling public funds into their own pocket more openly like the president-reject.

Here's an illustrative example. The original article was in the NY Times.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/10/10/peter-schweizer-washington-corrupt-practices-act-needed-to-drain-the-swamp/

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/09/opinion/what-hunter-biden-did-was-legal-and-thats-the-problem.html

[Von Due]

Here's an illustrative example. The original article was in the NY Times.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/10/10/peter-schweizer-washington-corrupt-practices-act-needed-to-drain-the-swamp/

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/09/opinion/what-hunter-biden-did-was-legal-and-thats-the-problem.html

The NYT article was written by Peter Schweizer, the "senior editor-at-large" at Breitbart, or as Breitbart themselves refer to him as, a senior contributor. He is the same Peter Schweizer who submitted the article to the mentioned Breitbart.

He is also the president of the Government Accountability Institute (GAI)
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/government-accountability-institute/

I would perhaps seek to fact check claims coming from him, just like fact checking anything is a sound idea.

[Sonicfire1981]

Here's an illustrative example. The original article was in the NY Times.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/10/10/peter-schweizer-washington-corrupt-practices-act-needed-to-drain-the-swamp/

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/09/opinion/what-hunter-biden-did-was-legal-and-thats-the-problem.html

On top of Von Due's remarks (thank you - I even missed that), it's a weak argument, and none for the point you wanted to make, here's why:

- How exactly were Jared Kushner & Invanka Trump qualified for the positions they held? When Hunter Biden should not take advantage of his family ties abroad - what happend there? and who paid that?

- if those two were government employees, why did the receive consultant fees?

- how is foreign officials staying in Trumps hotels and go back home with good deals fitting in?

- who paid for trumps excessive golfing, and who received that money?

- what happened to the donations trump received for his courting against the "widespread election fraud"?

- what, just to change the face for once, happend to Lauren Boebarts tax-debt?

phew. I could go on, but won't for now. Because there's still a lot of my points open and unreplied.

[August]

I have never seen someone shovelling public funds into their own pocket more openly like the president-reject.




I've never seen any proof of Trump and Co. "shoveling public funds into their own pockets". All I've heard was just a bunch of democrats slandering their betters with unsubstantiated accusations. Do you have any actual proof of these crimes? Detailed reports though, no based sources or party propaganda will be acceptable.

[Sonicfire1981]

I've never seen any proof of Trump and Co. "shoveling public funds into their own pockets". All I've heard was just a bunch of democrats slandering their betters with unsubstantiated accusations. Do you have any actual proof of these crimes? Detailed reports though, no based sources or party propaganda will be acceptable.

Right above your post, go for it.

By the way, the last time you demanded facts ("^This.") they were delivered as well. I'm still waiting for a reaction.

[Cybermat47]

Detailed reports though, no based sources or party propaganda will be acceptable.

I’m glad we finally agree on something :)

Right above your post, go for it.

I see no links to any sources at all in your post above August’s. The only sources I can see on this page at all were posted by someone debating with you.

Doing a google search for ‘donald trump embezzlement’ only turns up news articles about cases relating to charities, nothing about taxpayer money.

[August]

Right above your post, go for it.


I asked you for proof of the accusation you made. None of that even comes close. I think you are being deliberately untruthful.

[Sonicfire1981]

I asked you for proof of the accusation you made. None of that even comes close. I think you are being deliberately untruthful.

it's even more subtle than that; I asked questions. care to answer? Or did trump never play golf during his presidency?

[August]

it's even more subtle than that


Naw I think it's pretty clear, you don't have anything to back up the accusation that you made so now you're desperately trying to change the subject.

[Sonicfire1981]

Naw I think it's pretty clear, you don't have anything to back up the accusation that you made so now you're desperately trying to change the subject.

I'm not trying to change the subject, I'm asking questions on the subject. evading those questions seem more the strategy to avoid said subject

[Cybermat47]

Sonic, if you have sources, just post them.

[Sonicfire1981]

Sonic, if you have sources, just post them.

What shall I do with my questions?

[3catcircus]

On top of Von Due's remarks (thank you - I even missed that), it's a weak argument, and none for the point you wanted to make, here's why:

- How exactly were Jared Kushner & Invanka Trump qualified for the positions they held? When Hunter Biden should not take advantage of his family ties abroad - what happend there? and who paid that?

- if those two were government employees, why did the receive consultant fees?

- how is foreign officials staying in Trumps hotels and go back home with good deals fitting in?

- who paid for trumps excessive golfing, and who received that money?

- what happened to the donations trump received for his courting against the "widespread election fraud"?

- what, just to change the face for once, happend to Lauren Boebarts tax-debt?

phew. I could go on, but won't for now. Because there's still a lot of my points open and unreplied.

How was Jared Kushner qualified? Who knows, but three middle east arab countries agreeing to normalizing relations with Israel, due to efforts of Kushner and staff sounds like a good outcome.

Gov't employees receiving consulting fees? If you are doing a *different* job than what you do as a govt employee, you absolutely can get paid. If I write a novel and sell it, my employer still pays me for the work I do for them.

Staying in Trump hotels? And? Trump was not involved in managing that business while he was President.

"Excessive golf?" It's a lot cheaper on the taxpayer for Trump to spend the weekend at his own club than all of Obama's trips to Hawaii.

Donations? No idea.

Boebert's tax debt? It's her business tax debt and there are different laws for businesses than individuals. Her business lost money in 2018 and she's digging out. Records show that the business had paid some of it but not all.

There's the perception of wrongdoing and there's actual wrongdoing. Even when caught red-handed, leftists seem to be made of teflon.

[MaDef]

it's even more subtle than that; I asked questions. care to answer? Or did trump never play golf during his presidency?
what's this obsession with Presidents playing golf? in the last 110 years (going all the way back to 1908) only 3 Presidents didn't play golf, Carter, Truman & Hoover. FYI, Trump did spend 50,000.00$ of his own money to upgrade the golf simulator that Obama had installed in the private residence part of the White House. ;)

[Cybermat47]

What shall I do with my questions?

You’re the one who said you had proof; where is it?

[Sonicfire1981]

How was Jared Kushner qualified? Who knows, but three middle east arab countries agreeing to normalizing relations with Israel, due to efforts of Kushner and staff sounds like a good outcome.
Peace in the middle east is good. very good in fact. we can agree on that. How this went down and who is to credit for it is to be discussed elsewhere. Taken from this episode: Trump installed "his" family where they get paid by american taxpayers, why is that better than biden providing his son with a job paid with ukrainian money (assuming for a moment that's the case)?


Gov't employees receiving consulting fees? If you are doing a *different* job than what you do as a govt employee, you absolutely can get paid. If I write a novel and sell it, my employee still pays me for the work I do for them.

We'll see if that's the case.

Staying in Trump hotels? And? Trump was not involved in managing that business while he was President.

And after his presidency this money gets destroyed and he won't - at all - profit from this. It sound worth an investigation.

"Excessive golf?" It's a lot cheaper on the taxpayer for Trump to shave the weekend at his own club than all of Obama's trips to Hawaii.

Ah, the "But Obama did this..."- argument. You're propably wrong. Obamas trips and their cost are pretty well documented, at 97 Mill $ in 8 years. He also played a lot of golf, I believe to have read 300 times, 6times more than bush. And while I duly think there's better things a president could do while people are dying in the thousands due to a pandemic, it's not the point.
My Point is, the Trump Golf Resort bills President Trump, who gladly pays. Just because we don't know exactly how much does not make this right.
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/486209-new-documents-show-trump-company-has-charged-secret-service-628000
https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-trump-mar-a-lago-obama-travels-20170419-story.html
https://trumpgolfcount.com/displayoutings
https://thegolfnewsnet.com/golfnewsnetteam/2020/12/30/how-many-times-president-donald-trump-played-golf-in-office-103836/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/secret-service-has-paid-rates-as-high-as-650-a-night-for-rooms-at-trumps-properties/2020/02/06/7f27a7c6-3ec5-11ea-8872-5df698785a4e_story.html


Donations? No idea.

You know, the donations he asked for to rectify this election fraud thing. "Election Defense fund", where donations below 8k $, so the donations of the lower or middle-class men and women, were used for a variety of things, just not to challenge the election results by any means.
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-election-trump-fundraising-insigh-idINKBN27R30B


There's the perception of wrongdoing and there's actual wrongdoing. Even when caught red-handed, leftists seem to be made of teflon.

Tehe... the blue ones caught red handed.... careful, thou, colorful metaphors are oftentimes frowned upon in these parts...
This may or may not be the case. If this is an argument (again with the "but the dems did...."), then this:

[...]just want to go back to looting and pillaging their citizenry like they did before Trump. The ones who support Trump believe in the idea of politicians who look out for their citizens' interests over their own [...]

is hardly anywhere near the truth.

[vienna]

Same here, wth is qanon? Seems like the democrats know more about this than me or people I know. All these flakey extremists groups are small in numbers yet the msm and democrats, snowflakes and SJW blow them out of proportion. Another case of susceptible people being manipulated by msm and political liars.


The same could be applied to the Far Right mania about Left extremist factions such as the amorphous AntiFa and other such Rightist bugaboos, or to borrow your context:




Same here, wth is AntiFa? Seems like the Far Right know more about this than me or people I know. All these flakey extremists groups are small in numbers yet the Far Right media and GOP, Trumpettes and radio talk show pundits blow them out of proportion. Another case of susceptible people being manipulated by Far Right media and political liars.


The truth is, there is no real structure to AntiFA and I would really like to see any proof Antifa is anywhere near as organized and inter-communicative as the many Far Right groups seem to be; one of the really big reasons Antifa, or, for that matter, any of the other alleged "organized" leftist groups wouldn't be able to pull off something as outrageous as the Capitol Riot is exactly because they are so disorganized; one of my favorite ironic jokes, often attributed to Dylan, is "The first thing anarchist sdo is for a committee"; AntiFa can't even do that; I am very much less concerned about what a bunch of formless Left factions can do en masse than I am about what a rabid, armed, and inter-connected collection of Far Right wingnuts are up to; as I've pointed out before: there have been many, many left-wing, progressive demonstrations in DC over many, many decades and not one of them has ever had the shameless audacity or the seeming degree of organizational coordination as was seen on 06 Jan...

Regarding rightist media, it should be noted that even Fox News has started to run scared now: in just the past month, Fox has openly acknowledged it is moving more in the direction of opinion than hard news and has begun to make the labeling on shows such as Hannity, etc., make explicit those programs are not news but, rather, subjective opinion shows; this comes after Hannity publicly acknowledged he and his show do not vet or verify the stories or claims he relates on his programs and after Fox paid out millions to settle threatened libel/slander suits against Fox News and a couple of its hosts, with one such settlement coming just a day before Fox was faced with having to verify the 'reportage' made by one of its hosts in open court and be compelled to provide proof of the host's assertions; now that Fox has been hit with a jaw-dropping libel suit by one of the companies involved in the creation and administration of voting systems used in the 2020 Presidential Election and will be required to prove, in open court, and under oath, the claims of voter fraud and other wild conspiracy claims, it will be interesting to see what tack Fox News will take ongoing; maybe they will just drop and pretense and just drop "News" from their name...

Lou Dobbs is now gone; he was one of the Fox News personalities Fox paid out a multi-million dollar settlement just recently in order to keep from going to court; he has now become more expensive to keep than he is worth; who will Fox find to be not worth the trouble and expense next...?...

Don't get me wrong: I am not just directing my views toward jut Fox; I think it way beyond time to make those, of any political or social stripe, who make wild inflammatory statements to be openly required to present actual, verifiable, and consistent evidence to back up their claims, and, if they can't do that, make them pay a penalty for their attempts to hoodwink the public; I think it great those two Voting Machine companies are suing all those conspiracy nuts who have made wild, slanderous statements, ail the while thinking no one would dare to call them out on their claims; too many people and groups, again, of all stripes, have gotten away for far too long with just putting out whatever rubbish they can pull out of their hinter regions and try to pass it off as "news' or "facts"; make the buggers put up or shut and pay up; hit them a few times where it really hurts, the old pockets and purses and let's see if they have an urge to serve up their crap as easily as they do now...





<O>

[Skybird]

In Germany, some minister presidents and interior ministersof the federal states form a consensus and mull the observation of Qanon by the office for the protection of the constitution at least on federal state level, if not national level. That harmless it is - even here.

In America, it has a stable, highly relevant and opinion-forming basis amongst orange voters. Its one of the driving forces behind turning the red party into an orange one. Ideology matters.

But okay, go on and stick your heads into the sand. Has become a national hobby over the past 4 years already.

[u crank]

I am very much less concerned about what a bunch of formless Left factions can do en masse than I am about what a rabid, armed, and inter-connected collection of Far Right wingnuts are up to;

You mean until they burn down your neighborhood?:O:

I don't think it matters how organized they are but rather what they are up to.

I think it way beyond time to make those, of any political or social stripe, who make wild inflammatory statements to be openly required to present actual, verifiable, and consistent evidence to back up their claims, and, if they can't do that, make them pay a penalty for their attempts to hoodwink the public;

I'm not sure that is a good or even workable idea. How would you envision this being put into practice? There is this thing called the First Amendment. And there are lots of laws pertaining to slander, defamation etc. And the big question .. who would be the arbitrator of such a Big Brother watchdog such as you suggest? I can guess but how would you see it being done? Are you suggesting an actual law? Can't see that ever happening. The big picture and what Leftists are now crying about is the free speach rights of Americans guaranteed under the First Amendment. People are alowed to say stupid things. If you are offended or feel you have been slandered, take them to court. This has happened. (Nicholas Sandmann and CNN). And if the left or right media traffics in conspiracy theories call them out in the public square. That is what journalists are suppose to do.

In effect you are suggesting that somebody, not sure who, is needed to protect the public from themselves. Those protections are already in place.

[Rockstar]

The same could be applied to the Far Right mania about Left extremist factions such as the amorphous AntiFa and other such Rightist bugaboos, or to borrow your context:


The truth is,

<O>
The truth huh? Must be nice to be the only to know it.


Hard to make a case though about left wing right wing organizations when Antifa really doesn't seem to take kindly to either side of the political spectrum.

Earlier Wednesday, a crowd of about 200 people, including self-described anarchists, marched in the city’s Central Eastside area and smashed windows at the Democratic Party of Oregon headquarters. Some of the demonstrators carried a sign that read “We don’t want Biden, we want revenge!” in response to “police murders” and “imperialist wars.” Portland police said they arrested eight people.

https://nypost.com/2021/01/21/antifa-militants-smash-up-first-starbucks-in-anti-biden-protest/

https://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/2021/01/inauguration-day-in-oregon-protests-celebrations-expected-gov-kate-brown-cheers-a-new-chapter.html

[Von Due]

Not a post about the US in particular but these self proclaimed anarchists make me shake my head. Ask them what they think of Bakunin and the reply will most likely be "never had that before. Is it vegan?"

[Sonicfire1981]

Not a post about the US in particular but these self proclaimed anarchists make me shake my head. Ask them what they think of Bakunin and the reply will most likely be "never had that before. Is it vegan?"

Never heard that before... Violence is never good. Extremist groups of all color belong into a Bakunin and never to be seen again. The difference is:
Biden condemns violent groups without hesitation
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-biden-condemned-antifa-idUSKBN2712ZA

whereas Trump... well. Doesn't convincingly.
I bet I would have to deliver some proof for this baseless accusation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b80cA0SirAs

And this seems to be more and more widely be true for his followers.
Ask a leftist about antifa & leftwing violence: they condemn it - you might hear that there is no organisation "antifa", but undoubtedly, violence is bad.
Ask a trumpist about white supremacy: "Whatabout Antifa? the BLM terrorists?"

[3catcircus]

Peace in the middle east is good. very good in fact. we can agree on that. How this went down and who is to credit for it is to be discussed elsewhere. Taken from this episode: Trump installed "his" family where they get paid by american taxpayers, why is that better than biden providing his son with a job paid with ukrainian money (assuming for a moment that's the case)?


We'll see if that's the case.

And after his presidency this money gets destroyed and he won't - at all - profit from this. It sound worth an investigation.

Ah, the "But Obama did this..."- argument. You're propably wrong. Obamas trips and their cost are pretty well documented, at 97 Mill $ in 8 years. He also played a lot of golf, I believe to have read 300 times, 6times more than bush. And while I duly think there's better things a president could do while people are dying in the thousands due to a pandemic, it's not the point.
My Point is, the Trump Golf Resort bills President Trump, who gladly pays. Just because we don't know exactly how much does not make this right.
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/486209-new-documents-show-trump-company-has-charged-secret-service-628000
https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-trump-mar-a-lago-obama-travels-20170419-story.html
https://trumpgolfcount.com/displayoutings
https://thegolfnewsnet.com/golfnewsnetteam/2020/12/30/how-many-times-president-donald-trump-played-golf-in-office-103836/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/secret-service-has-paid-rates-as-high-as-650-a-night-for-rooms-at-trumps-properties/2020/02/06/7f27a7c6-3ec5-11ea-8872-5df698785a4e_story.html


You know, the donations he asked for to rectify this election fraud thing. "Election Defense fund", where donations below 8k $, so the donations of the lower or middle-class men and women, were used for a variety of things, just not to challenge the election results by any means.
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-election-trump-fundraising-insigh-idINKBN27R30B



Tehe... the blue ones caught red handed.... careful, thou, colorful metaphors are oftentimes frowned upon in these parts...
This may or may not be the case. If this is an argument (again with the "but the dems did...."), then this:



is hardly anywhere near the truth.

I really don't see any issue with him staying at hotels with his name on the marquee. At least there is no claim of him selecting one hotel chain to favor over any other - and I have no idea if he was charged the per diem rate or not every time. I've been on travel where I couldn't obtain a per diem rate - because of vip type government officials staying at the hotel taking all of the available rooms at that rate. It would not at all surprise me if he directed rooms at a more expensive rate to allow per diem rate rooms to be used by other government travelers.

Cost *is* the entire point. A 2-hr flight to a property he owns where the USSS can come in and set up security permanently is always less costly than a 12-hr flight to a different private property in Hawaii where security had to be set up every time, temporarily. One trip the Obama's took, for example, was to a place that rents for $5000-$10,000 night. Trump's Mar-aLago - not so much.

[u crank]

Ask a leftist about antifa & leftwing violence: they condemn it - you might hear that there is no organisation "antifa", but undoubtedly, violence is bad.


Depends who you ask. The left wing media and certain Democrat politicians spent an entire summer defending the Antifa and BLM riots as 'mostly peaceful'. The current Vice President retweeted a link to raise bail money for these thugs. Left wing on air talking heads like CNN's Chris Cuomo differentiated between good violence and bad violence. Their on site reporters stood in front of burning buildings and said the protests were mostly peaceful.

Remarkably it took about 100 days, 10,000 arrests, over $2 billion in property damage and hundreds of protesters, police and innocent bystanders injured to actually get the condemnation started. Biden made that statement on On Sept. 7, 2020. He and other Democrats started to condemn the violence when polls began to indicate that they had better say something. Up until then not much because of course there was an election campaign going on. You don't want to criticize some people who might vote for you.

[Sonicfire1981]

I really don't see any issue with him staying at hotels with his name on the marquee. At least there is no claim of him selecting one hotel chain to favor over any other - and I have no idea if he was charged the per diem rate or not every time. I've been on travel where I couldn't obtain a per diem rate - because of vip type government officials staying at the hotel taking all of the available rooms at that rate. It would not at all surprise me if he directed rooms at a more expensive rate to allow per diem rate rooms to be used by other government travelers.

Cost *is* the entire point. A 2-hr flight to a property he owns where the USSS can come in and set up security permanently is always less costly than a 12-hr flight to a different private property in Hawaii where security had to be set up every time, temporarily. One trip the Obama's took, for example, was to a place that rents for $5000-$10,000 night. Trump's Mar-aLago - not so much.


I'll draw you a picture:

President Trump --Taxpayer Money--> Trump Organisation ->BAD!

Besides (!Besides, because its not the point. Look at my beautiful picture) your wrong:

Obama total in 8 years: 85M$
https://www.afr.com/world/north-america/barack-obamas-8years-of-golf-hawaii-vacations-costs-taxpayers-us85-million-20161229-gtj4bi
Trump total: 140M$ (estimate)
https://thegolfnewsnet.com/golfnewsnetteam/2020/11/08/how-much-donald-trump-golf-rounds-cost-taxpayers-107139/

[Skybird]

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/biden-s-early-israel-policies-show-he-won-t-be-ncna1257146

Surprisignly - well, really? - few changes in the policy towards Israel and the Palestinian Arabs.

[Sonicfire1981]

Someone else watching the impeachment trial? just tuned in and can't help but... D. Trump had some difficulties finding a lawyer at all (not even talking about "to the unites states of america...")

Is he trying to fillibuster this trial?

[u crank]

Someone else watching the impeachment trial? just tuned in and can't help but... D. Trump had some difficulties finding a lawyer at all (not even talking about "to the unites states of america...")

Is he trying to fillibuster this trial?

I think I've seen this movie before. I wonder will it have the same anticlimactic ending?

[Sonicfire1981]

I think I've seen this movie before. I wonder will it have the same anticlimactic ending?

You're propably right, also about the ending. The sequel had to be made, though. Anyways, for a done deal, those lawyers talk *a lot*.

[u crank]

You're propably right, also about the ending. The sequel had to be made, though.

Well maybe but what a giant waste of time and effort for something that will have a predetermined outcome. And for Democrats what a waste of political capital. You win the WH and control both branches of Congress and this is what you do?

Anyways, for a done deal, those lawyers talk *a lot*.

They can't help it. It's part of their lifestyle. :O:

[Skybird]

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/how-republicans-defense-trump-over-his-impeachment-trial-hurts-him-ncna1257092


https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/trump-s-senate-impeachment-trial-referendum-voters-constitutional-responsibility-ncna1256982


https://us.cnn.com/2021/02/08/opinions/gop-senators-trump-impeachment-trial-durenberger-pressler-humphrey/index.html

[Sonicfire1981]

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/how-republicans-defense-trump-over-his-impeachment-trial-hurts-him-ncna1257092
[...] An honest Senate verdict based on the evidence of Trump's conduct in provoking the mob's invasion of the Capitol — which endangered the lives of senators, Vice President Mike Pence, House members and others — surely would result in a conviction,[...]

That makes me angry. It wasn't only the endangerment, in my view first and foremost, people died. at least a half sentence would have been nice.


https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/trump-s-senate-impeachment-trial-referendum-voters-constitutional-responsibility-ncna1256982


https://us.cnn.com/2021/02/08/opinions/gop-senators-trump-impeachment-trial-durenberger-pressler-humphrey/index.html

[u crank]

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinio...im-ncna1257092
[...] An honest Senate verdict based on the evidence of Trump's conduct in provoking the mob's invasion of the Capitol — which endangered the lives of senators, Vice President Mike Pence, House members and others — surely would result in a conviction,[...]

And this is where a lack of understanding comes in. An impeachment and the Senate trial that follows is not a legal proceding. It is a political proceding. Only one impeachment attempt in my lifetime has succeeded. And it never went to trial in the Senate. When Nixon was told by those close to him that enough GOP Senators would likely vote guilty, he resigned. And whether we like it or not that is the only way to proceed. Few if any Senators are going to change their minds by hearing stuff that they have already heard repeated over and over. Without consensus before hand it is just Kabuki theatre. I couldn't bear to watch a second of it.

And if you need a refresher course on just how it works ... here you go.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Bill_Clinton

[Sonicfire1981]

And this is where a lack of understanding comes in. An impeachment and the Senate trial that follows is not a legal proceding. It is a political proceding. Only one impeachment attempt in my lifetime has succeeded. And it never went to trial in the Senate. When Nixon was told by those close to him that enough GOP Senators would likely vote guilty, he resigned. And whether we like it or not that is the only way to proceed. Few if any Senators are going to change their minds by hearing stuff that they have already heard repeated over and over. Without consensus before hand it is just Kabuki theatre. I couldn't bear to watch a second of it.

And if you need a refresher course on just how it works ... here you go.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Bill_Clinton

That's perfectly understood, I asure you. Just - sitting idly by and hoping that the ex-president would do the right thing, the thing even nixon had the decency to do, won't cut it. Hoping, that the signal that such behaviour is not okay would come from a narcisist is a bit like expecting a junky to stop using drugs because "in the end, he's the one that has to quit."

The thing to understand here that the constitution was written with politicians in mind that had believes and values. That they would take their office seriously, they they would honor the constitution and, well, some basic principles of decency.
On that behalf the german constitution is much better, because there are failsafe mechanisms installed because of historical reasons.

[mapuc]

During former Presidents Presidency a friend said that he was a disease.

Well if this is true then it can only be a case of after-effects we see.

Markus

[u crank]

The thing to understand here that the constitution was written with politicians in mind that had believes and values. That they would take their office seriously, they they would honor the constitution and, well, some basic principles of decency.


That was the principle behind it but it is applied to a group of people who for the most part have little intention of following it. Politicians usually do the wrong thing every time.

[Sonicfire1981]

That was the principle behind it but it is applied to a group of people who for the most part have little intention of following it. Politicians usually do the wrong thing every time.

We agree on that on the spot. who would have thought. Those that don't must be held accountable. given you want to live in a democracy.

[3catcircus]

We agree on that on the spot. who would have thought. Those that don't must be held accountable. given you want to live in a democracy.

Not sure about anyone else I most certainly do not want a democracy. Given the choice, I'd prefer a benevolent dictatorship with me at the top, but I'll settle for a constitutional republic like we currently are supposed to have.

[Buddahaid]

Not sure about anyone else I most certainly do not want a democracy. Given the choice, I'd prefer a benevolent dictatorship with me at the top, but I'll settle for a constitutional republic like we currently are supposed to have.

:Kaleun_Wink:

[Skybird]

Formally the us is best described as a representative democracy.

Not that the GOP and its nemesis care.

I see western political systems as individual career generators and lobby mechanisms.



None of the concepts behind democracy or republic make sure that competence and integrity rule. By overwhelming empirical outcome, they always seem to acchieve right the opposite.

The only way I see to limit damage from politicians, is to limit the size of the playing fields on which their egos can play. Local small governments, no nations, no supernational organizations. That is why i have become zero state follower and private rights society follower. The relation in power between state and citizen is too disadvantageous and at the cost of the citizen, always.

[Sonicfire1981]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKNw1F3O7F0

It has begun.

[Skybird]

^

https://abcnews.go.com/US/fulton-county-da-opens-criminal-probe-trumps-efforts/story?id=75804119&cid=clicksource_4380645_3_heads_hero_live_hero_hed

The district attorney's office in Fulton County, Georgia, has formally launched a criminal probe into former President Donald Trump (https://abcnews.go.com/alerts/donald-trump)'s efforts to overturn his election loss in the state, after Trump was heard in a January phone call (https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-demands-georgia-secretary-state-find-votes-hand/story?id=75027350) pleading with Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger to help him "find 11,780 votes," the exact number he needed to win Georgia.

(...) election law experts argued (https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/georgia-election-officials-formally-launch-investigation-trump-phone/story?id=75760557) Trump could have violated as many as three separate state laws.

[3catcircus]

^

https://abcnews.go.com/US/fulton-county-da-opens-criminal-probe-trumps-efforts/story?id=75804119&cid=clicksource_4380645_3_heads_hero_live_hero_hed

The district attorney's office in Fulton County, Georgia, has formally launched a criminal probe into former President Donald Trump (https://abcnews.go.com/alerts/donald-trump)'s efforts to overturn his election loss in the state, after Trump was heard in a January phone call (https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-demands-georgia-secretary-state-find-votes-hand/story?id=75027350) pleading with Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger to help him "find 11,780 votes," the exact number he needed to win Georgia.

(...) election law experts argued (https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/georgia-election-officials-formally-launch-investigation-trump-phone/story?id=75760557) Trump could have violated as many as three separate state laws.

Will they use edited media like the fools in Congress?

The full audio makes it abundantly clear Trump wasn't asking anyone to manufacture ballots, but to seek out all the ones reported to have been discarded because they were for him and to throw out all of the ones that weren't legal.

The danger is that a politically-motivated judge could easily suppress exculpatory evidence, even knowing that his ruling would be thrown out on appeal - because that appeal wouldn't come until *after* the 2024 primaries.

[Buddahaid]

The audio makes it abundantly clear that Trump rejected the certified results and was asking for that to be changed. In other words, alter the results.

[Texas Red]

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/trump-impeachment-trial-02-10-2021/index.html

I think that Trump could get his incitement charge upgraded to treason, if you scroll down to the "House manager claims Trump knew rioters were planning the Capitol attack online months in advance" headline you will see evidence that he knew that this would happen and yet did not attempt to stop it. And the other articles say that the Republican National Committee is doing very little to defend him because they can't find any evidence that says that he didn't incite the insurrection, and everyone wants this to be done with.

House impeachment manager Stacey Plaskett claimed former President Trump and his social media team were aware of people planning the Jan. 6 attack on the US Capitol on social media sites and online forums, adding that the administration ignored warnings from the FBI that the violent threats were credible.

"They posted exact blueprints of the attack openly, loudly, proudly – and they did this all over public forums," Plaskett said during her remarks. "These were not just hidden posts and dark websites that Trump would not have seen. Quite the opposite. We know President Trump monitored these websites. We know this because his advisers confirm it," she said.

She pointed out that before the riot on Jan. 6 several media outlets, including Fox News, reported that there were hundreds of these violent posts online. She said city leaders and the FBI also issued warnings.

"The day before the rioters stormed the Congress an FBI office in Virginia also issued an explicit warning that extremists were preparing to travel to Washington to commit violence and, quote, war, according to internal reports," she said.

Plaskett ended her argument by saying Trump spent months calling his supporters to an event that had a specific time and place.

"Leading up to the event there were hundreds, hundreds of posts online showing that his supporters took this as a call to arms to attack the Capitol," Plaskett said. "There were detailed posts of plans to attack online. Law enforcement warned that these posts were real threats and even made arrests days leading up to the attack."

I think that this can get incitement upgraded to treason, correct me if I am wrong.

[Von Due]

...to seek out all the ones reported to have been discarded because they were for him...

This might not be the wording you're looking for unless you mean all and any discarded vote should go to Trump by default.

[Sonicfire1981]

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/trump-impeachment-trial-02-10-2021/index.html

I think that this can get incitement upgraded to treason, correct me if I am wrong.

Man, Plaskett spoke for a long time. At this trial it's only removal from office and/or disqualification. And as stated earlier, this could be politically decided already. We know from yesterday that most republicans won't watch and listen and rather stare at their notes. If they looked they could not vote No.

For a criminal trial, this is a strong argument, thou.

[3catcircus]

The audio makes it abundantly clear that Trump rejected the certified results and was asking for that to be changed. In other words, alter the results.

Have you heard the full audio or read the full transcripts?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/listen-to-the-full-trump-ga-call-11609713527

It's 100% clear that the "...find ballots.." quote refers to Trump wanting Raffensberger to actually audit the ballots to see what was miscounted, what was not a legal ballot, what ballots might have been missed, etc. At no point did he demand that they manufacture ballots.

This all goes to the fact that several states were not actually auditing things. They were just recounting them - and recounting a ballot that isn't signed, or from a dead voter, or what was clearly a stack of machine-completed ballots, is just shuffling deck chairs on the titanic. The "... find ballots..." quote, had GA done as requested, would have resulted in finding invalid ballots that shorter have never been counted. It could have resulted in finding ballots that should have been counted and weren't. It could have resulted in Biden ballots being rejected that put Trump over the top, or it could have given Biden more votes.

The context is "we believe we have more ballots for us than you are counting and we believe more were counted for Biden than are valid. We need to identify those ballots and correct the tally."

That's it. That's all it is. But the MSM and the left are breathlessly touting this as some kind of smoking gun when it isn't.

[Sonicfire1981]

Have you heard the full audio or read the full transcripts?

That's it. That's all it is. But the MSM and the left are breathlessly touting this as some kind of smoking gun when it isn't.

We'll find out about this soon enough. "All we want is a proper investigation. But the radical right won't let us evaluate all the evidence. Millions of people died on the day of the insurection; and this could all be pence's fault.
we just want to be treated fairly and that's it."

[Bilge_Rat]

It has begun.

well, no. The Fulton County DA is a newly elected ultra-liberal Dem trying to please her base.

What the MSM media will never tell you since it does not fit their narrative is that this was a settlement call, Trump was on a conference call with his advisers and his lawyers, the GA Sec of State was on the call with his aides and his lawyers. If Trump had said anything that was vaguely unethical or illegal on the call, you can be sure the opposing lawyers would have objected. You may have noticed that none of them have claimed that anything illegal was done.

This will blow over like every else.

[mapuc]

I have seen some minutes of this impeachment.

While watching it I came to think of a term from Swedish law-Uppsåt=Intent.

Did or had Former President an intent through his speech on Jan. 6th to incite his followers to, not only demonstrate near or around Capitol Hill, but even invade and disturb or prevent the ongoing process ?

Markus

[Sonicfire1981]

I have seen some minutes of this impeachment.

While watching it I came to think of a term from Swedish law-Uppsåt=Intent.

Did or had Former President an intent through his speech on Jan. 6th to incite his followers to, not only demonstrate near or around Capitol Hill, but even invade and disturb or prevent the ongoing process ?

Markus

Yes. enough evidence has been presented that he knew beforehand what some groups planned. he missed every oportunity during the riot to stop it, still tweeting in ALL CAPS DURING, "send them home" in the most ridiculous way imaginable ("We love you, you're special...") and so forth. it's been a long presentation already.
You must not forget that a president swears an oath to protect the constitution.

But, again, this time it's about removal & disqualification. If he just "oops"ed it and it went south accidently (hardly believable, since he's the greatest president of all times), that still makes him unfit for future office.

Edit: Fake News interviewed George Conway on the matter:
(George Thomas Conway III (born September 2, 1963) is an American attorney. On the shortlist of candidates considered by President Donald Trump for Solicitor General of the United States prior to the nomination in March 2017 of Noel Francisco, he was subsequently considered for a post as an assistant attorney general heading the Civil Division at the United States Department of Justice, but withdrew himself from consideration.[...] from Wikipedia)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ENNafr0-f8

[Gorpet]

Nikita Khrushchev, At the Polish Embassy in Moscow stated that Capitalist States would be buried with out firing a shot. We will Destroy you from Within. I must say have done a damn good job of making that a truth. Now the question for the USA is will they accept it or not.

[les green01]

Nikita Khrushchev, At the Polish Embassy in Moscow stated that Capitalist States would be buried with out firing a shot. We will Destroy you from Within. I must say have done a damn good job of making that a truth. Now the question for the USA is will they accept it or not.

the Day the USA becomes a reds country least while i'm still alive is the day i will be dead i was born free i was raise free and i intend to die free i wont give up any of my rights i hadn't watch any of the trial i figure it just a waste of money but what i have seen in the past few years the dems isnt inocent either

[Buddahaid]

It was close but the insurrection failed and the Republic still stands.

[MaDef]

You must not forget that a president swears an oath to protect the constitution.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

[Buddahaid]

It's an impeachment trial, not a law being created to abridge freedom of speech. He was free to say what he did but not free of consequences.

[Gorpet]

It was close but the insurrection failed and the Republic still stands.

And what is a Republic versus a Democracy ?

[Gorpet]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.



Tell me 1 President that has protected the constitution and how did he and the party he reprentis do that.

The Democrats and their Rino's have thrown that out the the door

[Gorpet]

In 2021 , You must be a very young . I have found in my life all Politicians are liars. Every single one one of them. Vote for term limits and see what you get.

[MaDef]

It's an impeachment trial, not a law being created to abridge freedom of speech. He was free to say what he did but not free of consequences. I was probably a bit obtuse in my post, but if you think this impeachment won't have a chilling effect on the first amendment for the rest of the country, then you are willfully ignoring human nature along with 5,000 years of recorded history.

[ET2SN]

Space aliens and fluoridated water in the schools? :hmmm:

[Sonicfire1981]

I was probably a bit obtuse in my post, but if you think this impeachment won't have a chilling effect on the first amendment for the rest of the country, then you are willfully ignoring human nature along with 5,000 years of recorded history.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohgTEk9h1kc

Look how he did not say:

"I, Donald John Trump do solemnly swear that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, unless the constitution is stupid because I was voted out in which case I will much rather exercise my right to incite a mob to attack the capitol in the hopes they will throw out all votes and appoint me their leader for as long as I like.

So help me god."

[u crank]

It was close but the insurrection failed and the Republic still stands.

With all due respect I don't think that there was the slightest chance that the Republic would fall on Jan. 6th. It would take a lot more than an unruly and destructive mob to accomplish that.

[Sonicfire1981]

With all due respect I don't think that there was the slightest chance that the Republic would fall on Jan. 6th. It would take a lot more than an unruly and destructive mob to accomplish that.

In a way it did; as it stands it seems to be acceptable for a president to send a violent mob after his opponents if he's not pleased with the election. Because had they reached pelosi, pence, romney etc. - a lot more blood would have been spilled.

Democracy is not the rule of the one with the most violent followers. Which one would you rather have?

[Bilge_Rat]

...as it stands it seems to be acceptable for a president to send a violent mob after his opponents if he's not pleased with the election...

well no, that is never acceptable, but that is not what happened and no amount of fact twisting and outright lying by the Democrats is going to change that.

The former President will be acquitted, that is a foregone conclusion.

[u crank]

In a way it did;

Sorry no. Your definition of the Republic falling would have to be explained. No such thing happened.

as it stands it seems to be acceptable for a president to send a violent mob after his opponents if he's not pleased with the election.

There is no proof that this was the case. In order for that to be true you would have to have a clear command by Trump to do so. Can you quote such a statement? And it can't be an ambiguous statement. It has to be specific such as "ok go to the Capital and kill some members of Congress." There also has to be intent. Can you or anyone prove that it was Trump's intent to cause anyone physical harm or do damage to property? Again you need irrefutable evidence of this. Is there any? On the contrary we have Trump urging the listeners to behave in a peaceful manner. The fact that they behaved differently is on them.

Because had they reached pelosi, pence, romney etc. - a lot more blood would have been spilled.

As any jive lawyer would say "pure speculation your Honor".

Democracy is not the rule of the one with the most violent followers. Which one would you rather have?

I hope that you are not suggesting that there are violent followers on only one side of the American political divide are you?

[MaDef]

Look how he did not say:

"I, Donald John Trump do solemnly swear that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, unless the constitution is stupid because I was voted out in which case I will much rather exercise my right to incite a mob to attack the capitol in the hopes they will throw out all votes and appoint me their leader for as long as I like.

So help me god."Your point being?

The only reason for this second "impeachment", is an attempt to prevent Trump from running in 2024.

FYI: Grover Cleveland lost his re-election bid in 1888 due to voter fraud. He was elected for a second term in 1892.

[Buddahaid]

Your point being?

The only reason for this second "impeachment", is an attempt to prevent Trump from running in 2024.

FYI: Grover Cleveland lost his re-election bid in 1888 due to voter fraud. He was elected for a second term in 1892.

I used to think that. Now I think it's more about making the GOP take sides.

[u crank]

The former President will be acquitted, that is a foregone conclusion.


"This particular impeachment ... seems especially half-baked to me, in the sense the House acted in desperate haste to try to get it under the wire before the president had actually left the office, and it's a single count. There was no investigation, no hearings, no witnesses called, no nothing, and they sent the whole thing over to the Senate, where there is no indication that enough Republicans would join Democrats to create the two-thirds needed to convict."

Brit Hume - Fox News

Some facts we are not getting on CNN.

[AVGWarhawk]

Some facts we are not getting on CNN.

Say it ain't so?????

[Sonicfire1981]

I hope that you are not suggesting that there are violent followers on only one side of the American political divide are you?

I do. By the bahaviour of most republican senators, reading books, feet on their desks etc. they seem to be thinking their live were never in danger during the insurection.
(as a sidenote: what would you do with your kids behaving like this while in a private school that costs you a fortune? would they be allowed to stay at that school?)
If they had the slightest worry such event could occur again, only with - say - Bidens followers, they would be a lot more interested in a thorough investigation of the event.
So not even Ted Cruz thinks there are equally violent followers on the other side.

[Sonicfire1981]

Some facts we are not getting on CNN.

Only CNN is news, fox news is commentary. On the first night of the Trial they had the story of a man using dog shampoo. Second night "the broken promises of Joe Biden". Not the trial - trivia.

[AVGWarhawk]

Only CNN is news,

:haha::har::haha::o

[Buddahaid]

Only CNN is news, fox news is commentary. On the first night of the Trial they had the story of a man using dog shampoo. Second night "the broken promises of Joe Biden". Not the trial - trivia.

You made the wild night avatar today! :Kaleun_Cheers:

[AVGWarhawk]

You made the wild night avatar today! :Kaleun_Cheers:

Been a while since I have seen that avatar. I recall one member getting a bit hot under the collar when it popped up on him. :har:

[Sonicfire1981]

Been a while since I have seen that avatar. I recall one member getting a bit hot under the collar when it popped up on him. :har:

I'm confident enough of my maskulinity to pull this off. It does stand out.

can we return to the matter?

[AVGWarhawk]

I'm confident enough of my maskulinity to pull this off. It does stand out.

can we return to the matter?

What you pull off is your own business.

[u crank]

I do. By the bahaviour of most republican senators, reading books, feet on their desks etc. they seem to be thinking their live were never in danger during the insurection.
(as a sidenote: what would you do with your kids behaving like this while in a private school that costs you a fortune? would they be allowed to stay at that school?)
If they had the slightest worry such event could occur again, only with - say - Bidens followers, they would be a lot more interested in a thorough investigation of the event.
So not even Ted Cruz thinks there are equally violent followers on the other side.

This of course is not what I was talking about. You have a single event on Jan 6 vs an entire summer of violent demonstrations in 2020. In Portland Oregon there were violent clashes with police for 100 consecutive nights. The obvious participants were violent members of Antifa and Black Lives Matter. Across the USA $1–2 billion insured damages. At least 25 deaths. Over 14,000 people arrested. 400+ law enforcement officials and countless civilians injured.

These were not Conservatives, Republicans or followers of Donald Trump. Definitely to the left of centre.

Only CNN is news, fox news is commentary.

Tell that to Chris Cuomo, Don Lemon, Jim Acosta, Christiane Amanpour, Anderson Cooper, Brian Stelter, Jake Tapper and Chris Cillizza. These people are not journalists they are left wing activists. They prove that every time they open their mouths.

[Catfish]

^ i do not know or heard of those people, but i remember Jim Acosta. he is a journalist, Sean Hannity is nothing.

Anyone believing Murdoch's Fox "news" is out of his trolley anyway, so no chance to even argue. Let them believe what they want and do not waste your time, there's much more interesting stuff in this world.

“I challenge anybody to show me an example of bias in Fox News Channel.”
(Rupert Murdoch) :har:

B.t.w. this is a quite good research of what to read and trust
https://towardsdatascience.com/how-statistically-biased-is-our-news-f28f0fab3cb3

[Sonicfire1981]

This of course is not what I was talking about. You have a single event on Jan 6 vs an entire summer of violent demonstrations in 2020. In Portland Oregon there were violent clashes with police for 100 consecutive nights. The obvious participants were violent members of Antifa and Black Lives Matter. Across the USA $1–2 billion insured damages. At least 25 deaths. Over 14,000 people arrested. 400+ law enforcement officials and countless civilians injured.

These were not Conservatives, Republicans or followers of Donald Trump. Definitely to the left of centre.

Ah, the "whataboutwhattheothersdid" again. It is one of your favourites, isn't it. The deaths are including those from antiprotesters which travelled there from other states to protect private property at gunpoint they have no ties to?
Those riots were horrific. They were - and are - unexcusable. It sincerely discredited the originally good cause from which it originated. But I see no way of comparing this with storming the capitol building to prevent your democratic process and kill your elected officials.
Besides: It is *my* point - you got some return to it?



Tell that to Chris Cuomo, Don Lemon, Jim Acosta, Christiane Amanpour, Anderson Cooper, Brian Stelter, Jake Tapper and Chris Cillizza. These people are not journalists the are left wing activists. They prove that every time they open their mouths.
What's your point? of course, cuomos commentary is commentary not fact (as stated for brit hume). CNN followed the trial live so you could watch - it does not get more objective than that

[u crank]

^ i do not know or heard of those people, but i remember Jim Acosta. he is a journalist, Sean Hannity is nothing.

Really. Chris Cuomo, Don Lemon and Anderson Cooper have prime time slots on CNN every week night. Jake Tapper is on during the day. Which CNN are you watching?:O:

I agree with your evaluation of Hannity. But Jim Acosta is a hack and not a very bright one, masquerading as a journalist. He's good at wrestling with young women for microphones though.:D

[u crank]

Those riots were horrific. They were - and are - unexcusable. It sincerely discredited the originally good cause from which it originated. But I see no way of comparing this with storming the capitol building to prevent your democratic process and kill your elected officials.

Well then I would say you are being somewhat selective in your assessment of the events which you are entitled to be. But I think they are exactly the same. Violent insurrection. And the goals would also be quite similar. Violence as a replacement for the political process. It doesn't matter in the least who violent rioters are trying to kill or injure. It's the same crime. And just for the record I condemn the Jan. 6th riot and I hope that all the law breakers are brought to justice.

Besides: It is *my* point - you got some return to it?

That was it.

What's your point? of course, cuomos commentary is commentary not fact (as stated for brit hume)


My point has already been made. CNN journalists are opinion makers who slant the news to fit the left wing narrative. Just like Fox News does. You are what you eat.

[Catfish]

CNN.com or CNN cable network?
Com seems to be almost neutral, while Cable is left-leaning, but still no comparison possible to something like "Breitbart"or the "Daily caller".

I just looked for Chris Cuomo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Cuomo
Interesting, worked for Fox news before, lots of journalist awards, certainly not pro-Trump:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJOB2DiNNsY

But then i might be like Melania Trump: "I don't really care, do you?"

B.t.w. you cannot stand up against lies when there are so much of them, while you try to debunk and tell the truth needing research and evidence to do this, there are 20 more new lies a minute. Seems who talks most, wins. I still wonder why the "fake news" like CNN did not react in a similar matter. Didn't they see it coming? Belief in journalist work? So old school.

[ET2SN]

Ohhhhhh SNAP!

:haha:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-party-exclusive/exclusive-dozens-of-former-republican-officials-in-talks-to-form-anti-trump-third-party-idUSKBN2AB07P

[u crank]

CNN.com or CNN cable network?

I don't don't think there is a difference. Same owner. That being said I don't have cable TV but I go to the CNN website, US Edition, every morning. For four years I never saw a single positive news story about President Trump. Once Joe Biden became the 2020 Dem candidate and up until today I have not seen a single negative story on Biden. I don't know what else to tell you. This isn't journalism, it's activism. And yes Fox News does the same.

It's funny because journalists usually have a high opinion of themselves but that is not the opinion of the public. Polls show an increase in the public's distrust of the media. I don't think they care because almost all news outlets are preaching to the choir. And making money doing so.

[mapuc]

Charade

In our Russian politics thread, someone said that the trial against this person(which name I have forgot) was nothing but a charade.

Well this ongoing impeachment is also a charade.

In the meaning, whatever evidence, indicier the Dem may present-His former party members among the Rep. will vote against them...Some of them will vote for a verdict though.

Markus

[Sonicfire1981]

I don't don't think there is a difference. Same owner.
There's a big difference which you can see following the url catfish provided. It's so good, I put it in my signature. thanks catfish.

That being said I don't have cable TV but I go to the CNN website, US Edition, every morning. For four years I never saw a single positive news story about President Trump.

And how's that cnns fault?

[Buddahaid]

I pretty much never watch any broadcast news, or cable news, simply for the reason I don't want to see or hear the slant provided by the newsreader.

It's easier to filter that out by reading the text.

[Onkel Neal]

I think the key to this whole mess is, while Trump talked about fighting like hell, he also very clearly said peacefully.

[Rockstar]

It was about 30 years ago when I read all three volumes of Gulag Archipelago. I just recently started to listen to it on audiobook and got to page 418, chapter 10 in volume 1 and I couldn't help but think of the current 'trial'. And no the Gulag Archipelago is not science fiction, it really happened.


"Is it true that every opposition to the Party is a struggle against
the Party?" "In general it is, factually it is." "But a struggle against
the Party cannot help but grow into a war against the Party."
"According to the logic of things-yes, it must." "And that means
that in the end, given the existence of oppositionist beliefs, any
foul deeds whatever might be perpetrated against the Party?"
"But wait a minute, none were actually committed."

"But they could have been?"

"Well, theoretically speaking." (Those are your theoreticians for
you!) "But for us the highest of all interests are those of the
Party?" "Yes, of course, of course!" "So you see, only a very fine
distinction separates us. We are required to concretize the eventu-
ality: in the interest of discrediting for the future any idea of
opposition, we are required to accept as having taken place what
could only theoretically have taken place. After all, it could
have, couldn't it?" "It could have." "And so it is necessary to
recognize as actual what was possible; that's all. It's a small phi-
losophical transition.


btw, you can find all three volumes online for free in pdf format.

[3catcircus]

I think the key to this whole mess is, while Trump talked about fighting like hell, he also very clearly said peacefully.

Noseebutbutsee... You have to isolate the *pieces* of his speech that used words like "fight" to argue that his entire speech incited a hateful horde to rape, pillage, and murder and you have distinguish this clearly dangerous organized racist cult from all of those ideas that burned down buildings and attacked people last summer...

You aren't toeing the party line and need to schedule some time in a reeducation facility...

[3catcircus]

I pretty much never watch any broadcast news, or cable news, simply for the reason I don't want to see or hear the slant provided by the newsreader.

It's easier to filter that out by reading the text.

That, and I can read and parse far faster than anyone can talk on the boob tube...

[Skybird]

I think the key to this whole mess is, while Trump talked about fighting like hell, he also very clearly said peacefully.


https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/56968/speech-friends-romans-countrymen-lend-me-your-ears

[Catfish]

^ Very nice but it does not fit.
"When that the poor have cried, Caesar [Trump – you really mean that?] hath wept"
No he did not. He laughed. He never was on anybody's side but his own.

[Wolferz]

Nero fiddled while Rome burned.

Trump would likely have been laughing while the capital burned.
But that's a sociopathic narcissist for you.

I have been watching the senate proceedings and I fear that the Republican senators are going to put the party above the constitution and acquit the twit in a vain effort to save face. I doubt they will be shocked when that line of thinking turns into a piece of lead rapidly inserted in their foot. Midterms are not that far off and I doubt the American people will forget a betrayal of that magnitude any time soon.
The impeachment managers have presented a very compelling case so far and after watching Mister Trump's lawyers floundering on day one, I doubt they will do any better in their defense attempt tomorrow.
Mister Trump should go ahead and keep heading south until he hits Cuba.
Maybe there he can lie his way into becoming their leader and spend the rest of his days smoking cigars and pushing Cubans around.
America fired you dude. Accept it. Get over it. Ah heck, just get lost.

[Buddahaid]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry7vSMgfESQ

[Rockstar]

The role of Leahy, the longest serving Democrat in the U.S. Senate, is unprecedented, The New York Times reports. At the same time he’s presiding over the trial, he’ll also serve as a juror and will participate in voting, including on whether or not to convict Trump. Judge jury and executioner all rolled into one. Now that's the American dream in action!

As much as the framers of our system of government distrusted tyrannies. They extended that same distrust to popular majorities as well. The Senate was originally to function in ways that frustrated direct democracy, promoted state sovereignty and kept the House of Representatives in check. Unfortunately the 17th amendment screwed that all up and we now have what the framers feared. Mob rule, enjoy the show!

I doubt Trump will be convicted because that would require 2/3rds majority (17 republicans and all the democrats) But, I could be wrong but I dont see it happening. However what I do see, is Trump being barred from running for office in the future. All that is required for that is a simple majority senate vote.

[3catcircus]

The role of Leahy, the longest serving Democrat in the U.S. Senate, is unprecedented, The New York Times reports. At the same time he’s presiding over the trial, he’ll also serve as a juror and will participate in voting, including on whether or not to convict Trump. Judge jury and executioner all rolled into one. Now that's the American dream in action!

As much as the framers of our system of government distrusted tyrannies. They extended that same distrust to popular majorities as well. The Senate was originally to function in ways that frustrated direct democracy, promoted state sovereignty and kept the House of Representatives in check. Unfortunately the 17th amendment screwed that all up and we now have what the framers feared. Mob rule, enjoy the show!

I doubt Trump will be convicted because that would require 2/3rds majority (17 republicans and all the democrats) But, I could be wrong but I dont see it happening. However what I do see, is Trump being barred from running for office in the future. All that is required for that is a simple majority senate vote.

Somebody explain how they could possibly keep him from running again - the parties are private clubs. A third party can run him.

[Wolferz]

Actually, Rockstar,
Conviction only requires 2/3 of the senators who are present at the time of the vote.
Many of the Republican senators could distance themselves from any yes vote for conviction by simply not showing up. Then the Democrats can slam dunk the Trump twice in one day and the GOP'ers can go back to finger pointing and blaming all the problems on everyone but themselves.
Sounds like my kids when they were young.

[Skybird]

^ Very nice but it does not fit.
"When that the poor have cried, Caesar [Trump – you really mean that?] hath wept"
No he did not. He laughed. He never was on anybody's side but his own.
Its not about the content, but a method, a trick, a pattern. One can say one thing in words - and right by that mean exactly the opposite of it. One can not speak out a verbal command - and nevertheless leave no doubt that that command is what one is giving.



That's what this speech is so world-famous for.

[Rockstar]

Actually, Rockstar,
Conviction only requires 2/3 of the senators who are present at the time of the vote.
Many of the Republican senators could distance themselves from any yes vote for conviction by simply not showing up. Then the Democrats can slam dunk the Trump twice in one day and the GOP'ers can go back to finger pointing and blaming all the problems on everyone but themselves.
Sounds like my kids when they were young.


I don't know maybe. But the popular vote percentage was 51.3% President Biden 46.8% Trump with third party making up the rest. Considering the impeachment hearing is a purely political proceeding. That's too close a margin for any Senator on either side to just sit it out, so I'm guessing everyone will be there. Though if Trump were to run for office I'd rather other politicians persuade voters to not vote for Trump based on their merits, policies and qualities instead of this dog and pony show. I think this is just deepening the divide.

[Buddahaid]

I don't know maybe. But the popular vote percentage was 51.3% President Biden 46.8% Trump with third party making up the rest. Considering the impeachment hearing is a purely political proceeding. That's too close a margin for any Senator on either side to just sit it out, so I'm guessing everyone will be there. Though if Trump were to run for office I'd rather other politicians persuade voters to not vote for Trump based on their merits, policies and qualities instead of this dog and pony show. I think this is just deepening the divide.

For me the elephant in the room now is just what that percentage in favor of Trump's popular vote is after 1/6/2021? I would wager it has slipped considerably.

[Rockstar]

Now I don't hold him responsible for the unlawful actions of others, I just don't. But my opinion of him changed when without any evidence he brought discredit to the election process and transfer of power. Of all the things that has happened that ticked me off. So you might be right. But I tellya looking around and listening to others where I live doesn't seem much has changed its still all about team D and team R.

[MaDef]

What about team "I", who don't really care what team "D" or "R" think.

[Sonicfire1981]

Now I don't hold him responsible for the unlawful actions of others, I just don't. But my opinion of him changed when without any evidence he brought discredit to the election process and transfer of power. Of all the things that has happened that ticked me off. So you might be right. But I tellya looking around and listening to others where I live doesn't seem much has changed its still all about team D and team R.

I know I'm repeating myself, but I need to repeat:

If intention can be proven - which is admittedly hard to do, even though it should be cristally obvious - we would talk about sedition, never,
@el_Whacko about treason, because that would need an overt act of levying war: "[...]on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."

At this point, the accusation is "incitement of insurrection." Intent is a bonus for a criminal trial (which should be held separately). And fact is:
Had Trump not lied for weeks about a stolen landslide victory, had he not held a rally in Washington / had he held it at a different date, had he not used martial language in front of a crowd partly in combat gear, would he not, after protesters breached the capitol, accused pence of cowardice etc. - it would not have happened. And it would have been his *sworn* in *duty* as president and commander in chief to protect and prevent this events from happening.

The question is - at this point - moot however, as the first vote, wether the impeachment was constitutional or not, has shown that most republican senators vote politically/ in their best interest and not according to law.

[u crank]

has shown that most republican senators vote politically/ in their best interest and not according to law.

And how is this different from the two previous impeachment trials in the Senate? Were all 45 Democrat Senators who voted to acquit Bill Clinton not voting in their own political interests? Those Senators included the current President, Joe Biden and still serving Senators Dick Durbin, Dianne Feinstein, Ron Wyden, Jack Reed, Patty Murray. They also include the current Senate Majority leader Chuck Schumer and the guy who is presiding over the trial, Patrick Leahy. Despite compelling evidence that Clinton commited purjury and obstruction of justice these Democrats voted to acquit Clinton. The hypocrisy is stunning.

I know I'm repeating myself, but I need to repeat:

Yea I know what you mean. The current impeachment of Donald Trump is an abuse of the impeachment process. If you don't have the votes going in then it is a futile and highly partisan farce. What Democrats are doing here is campaigning for the 2022 mid term elections on the public dime. The same thing they were doing with Trump impeachment number one.

The real way and the only way to hold Trump accountable is in the court of public opinion.

[Sonicfire1981]

And how is this different from the two previous impeachment trials in the Senate? Were all 45 Democrat Senators who voted to acquit Bill Clinton not voting in their own political interests? Those Senators included the current President, Joe Biden and still serving Senators Dick Durbin, Dianne Feinstein, Ron Wyden, Jack Reed, Patty Murray. They also include the current Senate Majority leader Chuck Schumer and the guy who is presiding over the trial, Patrick Leahy. Despite compelling evidence that Clinton commited purjury and obstruction of justice these Democrats voted to acquit Clinton. The hypocrisy is stunning.

"Whataboutwhattheothersdidbeforethat"?



I know I'm repeating myself, but I need to repeat:
Yea I know what you mean.

Wrong. read again.

The real way and the only way to hold Trump accountable is in the court of public opinion
Not anywhere near the point, but fine; Trump never even reached 50% approval. and plummeted since then.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gallup_Poll-Approval_Rating-Donald_Trump.svg

[MaDef]

The real way and the only way to hold Trump accountable is in the court of public opinion. If you think Trump broke the law indict him, if not, call it a day and find something productive to do.

[Rockstar]

I know I'm repeating myself, but I need to repeat:



Umm no, you don't need to repeat yourself. In fact your repetitious arguments are quite old and hammering away at the same thing over and over may not be healthy. I'd suggest you seek professional help, find a friend or learn something new.

One element of the people who repeat themselves is loneliness and they are eager to prolong the conversation. Another may be the excessive need for attention also stemming from loneliness. The repeater craves connection and fears if they stop talking, the conversation will come to an end. Unfortunately, this is a self defeating tactic as people tend to avoid or limit conversations with people who repeat themselves as it can be exhausting to be the listener in such a conversation. Repeaters who are avoided, and who aren’t aware of their repeating, may double down on repeating when they are avoided thus causing people to be all the more determined to avoid them.

[Sonicfire1981]

Umm no, you don't need to repeat yourself. In fact your repetitious arguments are quite old and hammering away at the same thing over and over may not be healthy. I'd suggest you seek professional help, find a friend or learn something new.


You clearly don't have kids.

[u crank]

"Whataboutwhattheothersdidbeforethat"?

You can write that as many times as you like. But I notice no actual comment on my point. So how about it? No comment because why?

Politics does not take place in a vacuum. Everything that has happened in the past is relative. How these Senators will vote in Trump's trial is directly related to how they chose to ignore evidence and acquit one of their own when it was politically expedient. They should be called out on it. And I'm not surprised by that behavior because when it comes to politics I like to be a realist. Politicians of any stripe only act in their and their party's best interest. And that is exactly what is going to happen in the current case. You should prepare yourself for that.

If you think Trump broke the law indict him, if not, call it a day and find something productive to do.

Exactly right. And I would suspect that it won't happen because there is no actual evidence to proceed with.

[3catcircus]

You can write that as many times as you like. But I notice no actual comment on my point. So how about it? No comment because why?

Politics does not take place in a vacuum. Everything that has happened in the past is relative. How these Senators will vote in Trump's trial is directly related to how they chose to ignore evidence and acquit one of their own when it was politically expedient. They should be called out on it. And I'm not surprised by that behavior because when it comes to politics I like to be a realist. Politicians of any stripe only act in their and their party's best interest. And that is exactly what is going to happen in the current case. You should prepare yourself for that.



Exactly right. And I would suspect that it won't happen because there is no actual evidence to proceed with.

Really all this is - is breathlessly virtue-signaling and dog-whistling to the MSM and low-info voters. Low info not just in the sense of politics, but low info about *everything*.

They watch tv news and believe the newsreader or the grandstanding politician. They don't question whether or not video was edited (and how and why it was edited). They read print news only one paragraph in when the real information that contradicts the headline is in the last paragraph.

Not one single news story claiming Trump's alleged racism, sexism, or violence is true.

What it really calls into question is the ability of anyone working in media to parse anything in the English language beyind the 3rd grade if the MSM truly believes these claims they make.

*Anyone* who has had a proper basic education with those old-fashioned ideas of using phonics, reading comprehension, proper spelling, and grammar, to learn the bare minimum of properly reading and parsing the English language and who has seen Trump's full speeches and conversations or read the full transcript of them would agree that there is nothing there that would rise to the level of immoral or unethical, let alone unlawful.

That it hurts the left's feelings and that it threatened their attempts to push us further into communism instead of playing the political game with them is why they are foaming at the mouth about him. No more, no less.

[Onkel Neal]

"Whataboutwhattheothersdidbeforethat"?



You're saying one party can commit an act and be called out for it but no one can point out precedents? Sounds like an easy out for hypocrisy.



Not one single news story claiming Trump's alleged racism, sexism, or violence is true.



Well, I would argue there has been plenty to say about Trump's sexism.

[AVGWarhawk]

Well, I would argue there has been plenty to say about Trump's sexism.

I got nothing.... :har:

I think Trump's sexism runs much deeper than we will ever know.

[3catcircus]

Well, I would argue there has been plenty to say about Trump's sexism.

Are you referring his well-known love of pursuit of women? Doesn't make him sexist, but yeah, not keeping it in your pants is a character flaw.

Are you referring to his "grab 'em by the..." tape?

When you look at the entire tape, it's clear he was illustrating the difference in reaction from certain kinds of women who gravitate towards a career in entertainment to such a forward move by some random regular guy and if it comes from the rich and famous who have the ability to improve the financial and social standing if they let them.

Unfortunately when the MSM and political opponents take the video and edit it down to just "...and I grab them by the..." without the context of the words trying to illustrate the double standard in entertainment, that's the only thing most people ever see and hear and naturally assume that's what he said and he's a sexist pig.

I don't think anyone thinks he's squeaky clean - decades in real estate in NYC pretty much guarantees that he's done some less than aboveboard things, but I think that what most everyone is most upset about him is that he wasn't able to be bought off or silenced by political enemies or by so-called allies - that he didn't fit the typical mold of a politician or public figure where they think they've got some dirt that ends his run and instead of a grovelling apology, he just ignored it or worse (for them), he returned fire (and it was usually an on-target, fire-for-effect response).

[Sonicfire1981]

You're saying one party can commit an act and be called out for it but no one can point out precedents? Sounds like an easy out for hypocrisy.


No, I'm saying whataboutism is wrong. always. Voting against impeaching Clinton for lying under oath & obstructing justice was wrong. If there was a "Whataboutwhattherepublicansdidbefore" (I don't remember, but I'm also too young to have been overly interested back then) - that was *more wrong*.

It's an easy argument to not do the right thing now (voting against the constitution wether the senate should resolve this impeachment or not - because there really isn't anything to decide) because of what the oponent did 22 years ago.

I have a theory that these senators are afraid, which would be a natural thing to be - think Whittmer, think family Raffensperger.

The question you have to answer for yourself: is this still a country you want to live in? Where any official no longer has take care of what (s)he says, can *unintentionally* bring a violent mob, that, without any connection to the officials words, goes after the officials enemies. Where they takes no responsibility for the actions of their followers.
Basically the reign of those with the most violent followers. Do you want this to happen again, or should you do everything possible to prevent it?

[3catcircus]

No, I'm saying whataboutism is wrong. always. Voting against impeaching Clinton for lying under oath & obstructing justice was wrong. If there was a "Whataboutwhattherepublicansdidbefore" (I don't remember, but I'm also too young to have been overly interested back then) - that was *more wrong*.

It's an easy argument to not do the right thing now (voting against the constitution wether the senate should resolve this impeachment or not - because there really isn't anything to decide) because of what the oponent did 22 years ago.

I have a theory that these senators are afraid, which would be a natural thing to be - think Whittmer, think family Raffensperger.

The question you have to answer for yourself: is this still a country you want to live in? Where any official no longer has take care of what (s)he says, can *unintentionally* bring a violent mob, that, without any connection to the officials words, goes after the officials enemies. Where they takes no responsibility for the actions of their followers.
Basically the reign of those with the most violent followers. Do you want this to happen again, or should you do everything possible to prevent it?

Here's the problem. He didn't bring a violent mob. The *vast* majority of those in attendance at his speech on Jan 6th were entirely peaceful, listened to his speech, and went back to their hotels, grabbed lunch, etc. We have video of that. Of those that went to the Capitol, the majority of them went there peacefully.

You have the 1% of the 1% who entered into the Capitol. And the majority of *them* also did so peacefully, even if unlawfully. We have video of this also.

We *also* have video and social media evidence of left-wing agitators who planned and executed efforts to cause chaos at the Capitol - and the resultant escalation to include Trump supporters committing violence as a result - since most people would willingly follow leader-type personalities in such a situation.

If I were intent on engaging in shenanigans to make my political opponent look bad, this is a textbook example of how to do it successfully.

[Skybird]

Nobody being in knowleldge about the psychology and inner functionality patterns of sectarian cults can be surprised by this. Its almost a textbook example.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/12/tech/qanon-followers-family-lost-loved-ones/index.html

[3catcircus]

Nobody being in knowleldge about the psychology and inner functionality patterns of sectarian cults can be surprised by this. Its almost a textbook example.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/12/tech/qanon-followers-family-lost-loved-ones/index.html

You keep posting this link in multiple threads. No one is talking about The qanon craziness.

[Onkel Neal]

No, I'm saying whataboutism is wrong. always. Voting against impeaching Clinton for lying under oath & obstructing justice was wrong. If there was a "Whataboutwhattherepublicansdidbefore" (I don't remember, but I'm also too young to have been overly interested back then) - that was *more wrong*.

It's an easy argument to not do the right thing now (voting against the constitution wether the senate should resolve this impeachment or not - because there really isn't anything to decide) because of what the oponent did 22 years ago.

I have a theory that these senators are afraid, which would be a natural thing to be - think Whittmer, think family Raffensperger.

The question you have to answer for yourself: is this still a country you want to live in? Where any official no longer has take care of what (s)he says, can *unintentionally* bring a violent mob, that, without any connection to the officials words, goes after the officials enemies. Where they takes no responsibility for the actions of their followers.
Basically the reign of those with the most violent followers. Do you want this to happen again, or should you do everything possible to prevent it?

Ok, I understand. I'm not for this overheated rhetoric myself, not when Trump/Limbaugh/Hannity spew it, not when AOC/Schumer/Pelosi and the miserable congress rats like Maxine Waters and Sheila J-Lee, Cynthia Johnson, Marjorie Greene and other slimy bits of bowel excrement spew it.




Are you referring his well-known love of pursuit of women? Doesn't make him sexist, but yeah, not keeping it in your pants is a character flaw.

Are you referring to his "grab 'em by the..." tape?

When you look at the entire tape, it's clear he was illustrating the difference in reaction from certain kinds of women who gravitate towards a career in entertainment to such a forward move by some random regular guy and if it comes from the rich and famous who have the ability to improve the financial and social standing if they let them.

Unfortunately when the MSM and political opponents take the video and edit it down to just "...and I grab them by the..." without the context of the words trying to illustrate the double standard in entertainment, that's the only thing most people ever see and hear and naturally assume that's what he said and he's a sexist pig.

I don't think anyone thinks he's squeaky clean - decades in real estate in NYC pretty much guarantees that he's done some less than aboveboard things, but I think that what most everyone is most upset about him is that he wasn't able to be bought off or silenced by political enemies or by so-called allies - that he didn't fit the typical mold of a politician or public figure where they think they've got some dirt that ends his run and instead of a grovelling apology, he just ignored it or worse (for them), he returned fire (and it was usually an on-target, fire-for-effect response).

I'm referring to his lifetime achievement status of being a horrible person toward women. Cheating on his wives, sleeping with dumpy porno queens, bashing women in debates, and yeah, the general attitude and tendency to debase women.

[3catcircus]

I'm referring to his lifetime achievement status of being a horrible person toward women. Cheating on his wives, sleeping with dumpy porno queens, bashing women in debates, and yeah, the general attitude and tendency to debase women.

Given the track record of other Presidents when it comes to how they treat women, Trump's in good company with most of them - especially the Kennedy clan, LBJ, the Clinton mafia, who hid and covered up their misdeeds.

Cheating on his wife - problem.
Sleeping with dumpy porno queens - personal taste?Bashing women in debates - equal rights, equal treatment. Especially in a political debate, your opponent's flaws and failures are fair game, regardless of gender.

[Sonicfire1981]

I'm referring to his lifetime achievement status of being a horrible person toward women. Cheating on his wives, sleeping with dumpy porno queens, bashing women in debates, and yeah, the general attitude and tendency to debase women.
Given the track record of other Presidents when it comes to how they treat women, Trump's in good company with most of them - especially the Kennedy clan, LBJ, the Clinton mafia, who hid and covered up their misdeeds.


Yeah. WhatabouttheClintonsorKennedies?

[3catcircus]

Yeah. WhatabouttheClintonsorKennedies?

Doesn't make it not true. The Kennedies were known misogynists (JFK-RFK threesomes, Teddy drowning his date...)

Clinton's treatment of women was on display for the whole world.

[u crank]

Voting against impeaching Clinton for lying under oath & obstructing justice was wrong.

Actually what was wrong about it was the fact that the Republicans decided to impeach Clinton knowing that it would not result in a conviction. It shouldn't have happened. The impeachment process was never meant to punish the political opposition. The last three impeachments have been just that. As I have stated, without a resonable consensus that would at least come close to removal it is that thing with goats. Only in the Nixon case was this a reality. And because of it Nixon resigned. And the reason he did is because enough GOP Senators were not going to defend his obvious illegal activities and they let it be known.

It's an easy argument to not do the right thing now (voting against the constitution wether the senate should resolve this impeachment or not - because there really isn't anything to decide) because of what the oponent did 22 years ago.


I don't think that is the argument. It is more along the lines of 'we are not going to let you punish a GOP politician without good cause or consenus.' It is no more complicated than that. And the reason for that is because then it will be the normal thing to do in Washington. You may not like the way it pans out but it is a political reality that you should try to understand.

[Buddahaid]

Given the track record of other Presidents when it comes to how they treat women, Trump's in good company with most of them - especially the Kennedy clan, LBJ, the Clinton mafia, who hid and covered up their misdeeds.

Cheating on his wife - problem.
Sleeping with dumpy porno queens - personal taste?Bashing women in debates - equal rights, equal treatment. Especially in a political debate, your opponent's flaws and failures are fair game, regardless of gender.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-55hPvPnTOU

[3catcircus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-55hPvPnTOU

What part of "Bashing women in debates - equal rights, equal treatment. Especially in a political debate, your opponent's flaws and failures are fair game, regardless of gender" didn't you understand?

If you are in a debate, you're fair game. The shrinking violet routine won't work for women any more - this isn't the 1950s.

[Buddahaid]

Right so she should have just called Trump an ugly orange fat bastard.

[3catcircus]

Right so she should have just called Trump an ugly orange fat bastard.

That works for me. We'd all be better off if everyone just said what they actually felt and we were all brutally honest with each other.

[Buddahaid]

That works for me. We'd all be better off if everyone just said what they actually felt and we were all brutally honest with each other.

It doesn't work for me and was one of the big reasons I wanted Trump out. Adults should be able to slip the blade in without resorting to kindergarten sandbox language.

[August]

It doesn't work for me and was one of the big reasons I wanted Trump out. Adults should be able to slip the blade in without resorting to kindergarten sandbox language.


That's not adult, just underhanded.

[Buddahaid]

That's not adult, just underhanded.

As if politics has ever stood above being underhanded and don't even try to convince me Trump is above that and all John Wayne plain language righteous. The honesty is missing and long dead.

[Onkel Neal]

Yeah, I just think the world has enough problems without resorting to tacky, immature insults from our leaders. I want more Reagan and less scuzzball. Give me a leader I can aspire to, not one I would leave the restaurant if they were seated next to me.

[3catcircus]

As if politics has ever stood above being underhanded and don't even try to convince me Trump is above that and all John Wayne plain language righteous. The honesty is missing and long dead.

Just think about what you just said about honesty. We finally had a guy as president who was honest about what he was about.

All anyone had to do was take what he said seriously but not take what he said literally. Poet laureate, he isn't.

[August]

As if politics has ever stood above being underhanded and don't even try to convince me Trump is above that and all John Wayne plain language righteous. The honesty is missing and long dead.


I didn't make that claim. I just see that you don't have a problem with slipping "the blade in" just as long as it is cloaked in niceties and that to me is a prime example of what is wrong with the nation.

[Buddahaid]

I didn't make that claim. I just see that you don't have a problem with slipping "the blade in" just as long as it is cloaked in niceties and that to me is a prime example of what is wrong with the nation.

It was a figure of speech but I'll accept that and would point out that it's been a part of this nation for a very long time.

[Buddahaid]

Witnesses are going to be called now and there is a phone call between Trump and McCarthy on the sixth that appears relevant.

[Commander Wallace]

I don't normally get into the politics thread because quite honestly, there is much I don't know. I found a Youtube video yesterday in which the Trup Lawyers showed the Dems had edited video's in support of their charges and arguments. This morning, that Youtube video has disappeared. I find that quite troubling.


I did find a little of it.This is but a small piece of the much larger video I saw or perhaps others viewed real time in their entirety.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDN1YU1903s




Edit : Here is the video I saw.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfJaxhA4sP8

[August]

It was a figure of speech but I'll accept that and would point out that it's been a part of this nation for a very long time.


Which is why we need bring in outsiders to break up the cabal. If not the flawed Trump then someone else, but our politicians should not be professionals. The swamp exists. It continually grows larger and more oppressive and now we're allowing secret cabals of bureaucrats and oligarchs to "fortify" election results.



https://time.com/5936036/secret-2020-election-campaign/

[Buddahaid]

No witnesses will be called. Everybody is afraid of the dirt that would be brought out. :haha:

[3catcircus]

No witnesses will be called. Everybody is afraid of the dirt that would be brought out. :haha:


Yep - they're more afraid of their own dirty deeds being exposed moreso than trying to "convict" a private citizen in a sham "trial."



Constitutional scholars have already stated that Congress has no jurisdiction to impeach someone already out of office, let alone convict them. What could they possible do to him? The moment they try something that they think would be legally-binding is they moment they find themselves in a real court of law.

[Buddahaid]

It's been done before with a couple judges I think.

[3catcircus]

It's been done before with a couple judges I think.


It's been done before with a senator, a governor and a secretary of war.


The difference is that they *resigned* or were *expelled* before their term was up - *and* they were not convicted except in the case of a governor under a state constitution rather than the US constitution - whose wife became governor.



The best part of the whole sham is that the constitution itself is abundantly clear "When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present."


So - he isn't President during the trial but they are trying him for when he was President, so the Chief Justice needs to preside, which he isn't.


Bottom-line - this is all kabuki theater designed to fund-raise for the Dems' midterms.

[Armistead]

Is rather amazing a culture of "WAP" and "itches & 0's" , a 98 billion a year porn industry that everyone became offended by private locker room talk when it was clear what he meant.

Are you referring his well-known love of pursuit of women? Doesn't make him sexist, but yeah, not keeping it in your pants is a character flaw.

Are you referring to his "grab 'em by the..." tape?

When you look at the entire tape, it's clear he was illustrating the difference in reaction from certain kinds of women who gravitate towards a career in entertainment to such a forward move by some random regular guy and if it comes from the rich and famous who have the ability to improve the financial and social standing if they let them.

Unfortunately when the MSM and political opponents take the video and edit it down to just "...and I grab them by the..." without the context of the words trying to illustrate the double standard in entertainment, that's the only thing most people ever see and hear and naturally assume that's what he said and he's a sexist pig.

I don't think anyone thinks he's squeaky clean - decades in real estate in NYC pretty much guarantees that he's done some less than aboveboard things, but I think that what most everyone is most upset about him is that he wasn't able to be bought off or silenced by political enemies or by so-called allies - that he didn't fit the typical mold of a politician or public figure where they think they've got some dirt that ends his run and instead of a grovelling apology, he just ignored it or worse (for them), he returned fire (and it was usually an on-target, fire-for-effect response).

[Rockstar]

So, looks another government boondoggle dog and pony show has come to an end. Go team

[mapuc]

I don't know how an American prosecutor think or work in your national laws.

Here in Denmark or Sweden a prosecutor would not take a case to the court if s/he knows there none to very little chance for a verdict against the accused.

Since the Dem chose to impeach former President, I presume they had a strong case against him.

Either it wasn't strong enough or it was a case of back clapper among most of the Rep family.

Markus

[3catcircus]

So, looks another government boondoggle dog and pony show has come to an end. Go team

And this'll continue this way until average people start the equivalent of backhanding their representatives across the mouth until they start doing what they're supposed to.

Every GOPer who voted to impeach or convict is done politically. They'll all be primaried.

Wait and see if the midterms don't result in a record number of independents being elected and a record number of MAGA-Republicans

[3catcircus]

I don't know how an American prosecutor think or work in your national laws.

Here in Denmark or Sweden a prosecutor would not take a case to the court if s/he knows there none to very little chance for a verdict against the accused.

Since the Dem chose to impeach former President, I presume they had a strong case against him.

Either it wasn't strong enough or it was a case of back clapper among most of the Rep family.

Markus

There was never anything there - if this were an actual court of law, the prosecutor would've been thrown out. This was nothing but kabuki theater.

[Skybird]

Not unexpected, still another nail in the coffin of the former Grand Old Party which has almost completed its tranformation into the Great Orange Party.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/key-takeaways-acquittal-trump-wins-battle-republican-soul-n1257879

Key takeaways: With acquittal, Trump wins battle for the Republican soul

WASHINGTON — The Republican civil war ended on Feb. 13, 2021. Donald Trump won (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/live-blog/2021-02-13-trump-impeachment-trial-live-updates-n1257801).
The decision by most GOP senators to acquit Trump in the 57-43 vote on charges of incitement of insurrection (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-acquitted-impeachment-trial-7-gop-senators-vote-democrats-convict-n1257876) on the Capitol demonstrates that there is little appetite in the party to denounce the former president or his brand of politics.
Fear, and shamelessness. The landmark features of the GOP. With former Republicans beign a small majority in the GOP only, they should break away and found a third party. The damage is FUBAR - and it will continue to mount. It will not give them the win in coming elections, but it will prevent victory to the orange legion, taking too many votes away from it, likely. That at least is a cause to follow that shows integrity.

For those Republicans who still have an echo of a memory what "integrity" means. Many it will not be.

[Catfish]

I just had to watch this again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRBsJNdK1t0

"Every four years we gather on these steps, to carry out the orderly and peaceful transfer of power ... "

[MaDef]

Not unexpected, still another nail in the coffin of the former Grand Old Party which has almost completed its tranformation into the Great Orange Party.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/key-takeaways-acquittal-trump-wins-battle-republican-soul-n1257879

Fear, and shamelessness. The landmark features of the GOP. With former Republicans beign a small majority in the GOP only, they should break away and found a third party. The damage is FUBAR - and it will continue to mount. It will not give them the win in coming elections, but it will prevent victory to the orange legion, taking too many votes away from it, likely. That at least is a cause to follow that shows integrity.

For those Republicans who still have an echo of a memory what "integrity" means. Many it will not be.

Trump is 2-0 against the "swamp" (career politicos). No matter how you sum it up, the "swamp" has egg all over it's face.

[Commander Wallace]

As most know, former President Donald Trump has been acquitted in his 2nd Impeachment Trial. I'm not surprised considering the unconstitutionality of attempting to Impeach someone after they have already left office. Further, attempting to use redacted and altered evidence and video's should have brought criminal sanctions against those who brought that in.

That's not a Republican or Democratic issue but an American Issue and one we should all be concerned with. It seems more and more we are guilty until and unless we can prove we are innocent.

This might be a great time to revisit such issues such as term limits in both the State and Federal assemblies for Senators and Representatives.

Further, Voter Identification cards should be mandatory in every state of the Union to eliminate illegals from voting and lend some well needed validity to the voting process. We also need to have a discussion on mail in ballots.

While many are dying of Covid and trying to keep the lights and heat on let alone trying to find their next meal or pay for medication, these Idiots wasted time and money playing political games. Welcome to the U.S horse and pony show.

[Buddahaid]

Trump is 2-0 against the "swamp" (career politicos). No matter how you sum it up, the "swamp" has egg all over it's face.

Trump is a loser and the GOP swamp has shown its colors now, egg yellow. I'm looking forward to the right finding a more center and relevant footing. Maybe even a candidate.

[Skybird]

Trump is 2-0 against the "swamp" (career politicos). No matter how you sum it up, the "swamp" has egg all over it's face.
That has always be my point. That Orange will and does take over Red. The Republicans have had two impeachment chances to prevent it. Plus their personnel has had uncounted chances to distances themselves from it. That now especially McConnell poses with morality and lectures about moral responsibility for the inciting speeches and the storming of the Capitol, is ridiculous - he was the first on so many occasions to jump to the defence and the excuse of the old regime, by the most of absurd and hilarious foul excuses. A rotten 100% opportunist.



In German we call such a person "Wendehals". They always hang their flag according to the wind.

[Jimbuna]

While many are dying of Covid and trying to keep the lights and heat on let alone trying to find their next meal or pay for medication, these Idiots wasted time and money playing political games. Welcome to the U.S horse and pony show.

Sounds just about right to me :yep:

[u crank]

That has always be my point. That Orange will and does take over Red.

No. Not going to happen. Trump won't run again and the GOP will slowly distance themselves from him.

The Republicans have had two impeachment chances to prevent it.

But why would they? Why would they let their political rivals decide who their leader and President should be? You dance with the one you brought to the party. Democrats will do this with Biden and Pelosi. They will defend them regardless of what they do. It's happening right now.

[3catcircus]

Trump is a loser and the GOP swamp has shown its colors now, egg yellow. I'm looking forward to the right finding a more center and relevant footing. Maybe even a candidate.

Considering that he's 2-0, I'd say that's tigerblood winning, not losing.

As to the right finding a more center footing, here's a good simplified discussion of why you would be wrong in assuming the GOP is so far right:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2018/05/16/has_the_republican_party_really_moved_to_the_right _137048.html#!

There's another thing I've seen in the past that better illustrates this, but I am having some difficulties finding it.

Basically, if you draw two bell curves representing the Dems and Reps, with their peaks on either side of "center," the study shows that the Dem peak has shifted further left without changing the amplitude of the peak but the GOP curve has shifted to the right less far than the Dem curve had shifted to the left, but it's more spread-out with a lower peak - which means that the GOP has a broader spectrum of views about a given political subject and the Dems have only gotten more partisan.

*Everything* is about special interest group victimhood identity politics for the left. They see everything exclusively in terms of racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. even going so far as to invent imagined slights in which they can be offended and victimized where no such situation exists.

[u crank]

Basically, if you draw two bell curves representing the Dems and Reps, with their peaks on either side of "center," the study shows that the Dem peak has shifted further left without changing the amplitude of the peak but the GOP curve has shifted to the right less far than the Dem curve had shifted to the left, but it's more spread-out with a lower peak - which means that the GOP has a broader spectrum of views about a given political subject and the Dems have only gotten more partisan.

This ^^^.

Twenty five years ago I would have considered myself a left of centre Liberal who believed in free speech, the rule of law, free market economy, equality of opportunity over equality of outcome and would have been opposed to identity politics and political correctness. My position on those issues and many others has not changed but those positions on the left have all but disappeared.

[3catcircus]

This ^^^.

Twenty five years ago I would have considered myself a left of centre Liberal who believed in free speech, the rule of law, free market economy, equality of opportunity over equality of outcome and would have been opposed to identity politics and political correctness. My position on those issues and many others has not changed but those positions on the left have all but disappeared.

^^^

The worst part is the left refuses to even tolerate a different viewpoint, let alone debate the merits. They're a petulant child who operate on feelings and emotions only to their next breath. There's no critical thinking. No cost-benefit analysis. No probabilistic risk assessment. No thought of unintended consequences. As a result, *every* one of their feel-good ideas usually negatively affects the people they think they're helping.

One of my friends is a bit of a militant african-american. We argue - a lot. But we both give ground on a topic when we are wrong (or just bash each other over drinks - because the only thing that keeps people grounded is when their friends bust their balls). Who does he consider the most threatening group of people to what he wants to achieve personally and professionally? White liberals. Because they treat him like a child that needs help rather than an equal adult with responsibilities he needs to meet and rights he deserves. Even though he is a registered Dem, he's so far right on the Dem party spectrum, he might as well change to an Independent.

He said something that is so true yet so unachievable until the left is *actually* confronted and forced to answer for their failures, the GOP will continue to be the party of "well, we lost again. We'll get 'em next time." That's what they all hate about Trump - he recognizes that for what it is and refuses to engage in "next election" defeatism

[mapuc]

Yesterday I was thinking on posting a comment on how the Rep. Voters see this what their verdict would be-Well I forgot it.

Then I watched the Swedish news before bed and some professor in American study said following.

(Used translate)

"
Fear of Trump's loyal voters is one reason why so few Republican senators voted to overthrow Donald Trump. Dag Blanck, Professor of North American Studies, makes that assessment,.

-The loyalty of his true supporter is very strong,
you know what has happened to those who have gone against him before, Blanck tells TT.

According to several opinion polls, about half of Republican voters believe the party should continue to consider Trump his leader.
Their votes can play a big role when the party is to nominate candidates in the upcoming elections.
"
Markus

[Onkel Neal]

No. Not going to happen. Trump won't run again and the GOP will slowly distance themselves from him.

.

God, let's hope so.

[Rockstar]

Very calm and reasonable explanation for voting to acquit. Appears he's also prepared to distance himself and leave Trump to the criminal justice system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrvtEBh-j-A

[u crank]

God, let's hope so.

Well there are no guarantees. At least I'm not giving any.:O:

The reason I say that is because of all the post election nonsense he has made himself pretty much unelectable. He would still have a core of committed suporters but that would not be enough for a return to the WH. He would also have to win the primary and by then many in the GOP would have moved on and will be looking for someone like him but not him. Ron DeSantis, the current Gov. of Florida would be one of those people.

[3catcircus]

Well there are no guarantees. At least I'm not giving any.:O:

The reason I say that is because of all the post election nonsense he has made himself pretty much unelectable. He would still have a core of committed suporters but that would not be enough for a return to the WH. He would also have to win the primary and by then many in the GOP would have moved on and will be looking for someone like him but not him. Ron DeSantis, the current Gov. of Florida would be one of those people.

Unelectable by whom? 74 million or so voted for the guy and I'm guessing they'd vote for him again in 2024.

That having been said, his value is really as a head of a movement that runs candidates with similar values to primary the left-leaning. They don't even need to be all that to the right. When you ask the average American to vote for someone who believes in American exceptional ism or to vote for a global elite, the choice is clear. On a level playing field, conservatives destroy leftist candidates pretty much everywhere outside of NY and LA.

[Catfish]

No. Not going to happen. Trump won't run again and the GOP will slowly distance themselves from him. [...]
Wrong, both cases.