US Politics Thread 2016-2020

[Buddahaid]

Why should I be up front about it? Is agreeing with you a needed precondition for discussion? I don't see it that way but so be it.

Yes, August, I know we are at odds a lot but I think we are closer at the core when push comes to shove. I simply don't like to take a hard stand and an us verses them mentality about the politics of everything. No one is always right and no one is always wrong.

[August]

Why should I be up front about it?
Because honesty is always the best policy.

Is agreeing with you a needed precondition for discussion? I don't see it that way but so be it. Now you are just making things up. I don't care one way or the other if you agree or not, I would just prefer that you spare me the lecture.

Yes, August, I know we are at odds a lot but I think we are closer at the core when push comes to shove. I simply don't like to take a hard stand and an us verses them mentality about the politics of everything. No one is always right and no one is always wrong.Uh huh. Then name some things that Trump did right then.

[Buddahaid]

Because honesty is always the best policy.

And just how was anything I said dishonest?

Now you are just making things up. I don't care one way or the other if you agree or not, I would just prefer that you spare me the lecture.

Goes both ways.

Uh huh. Then name some things that Trump did right then.

I'll agree I like how he shakes up the status quo, and I'll agree about fighting the new green movement as stupidly myopic, I just don't agree about how he goes about it because he's an idiot and a charlatan posing as the messiah for all that is good about, and for, America. The right message but the wrong person, so wrong that the message is being destroyed just as he destroys everything he touches.

[August]

And just how was anything I said dishonest?


I didn't say you were being dishonest. Just that you weren't up front with your intentions. Some might consider that the same thing.


Goes both ways.
Then may I suggest if you don't want to hear it then you don't ask people for their opinions.


I'll agree I like how he shakes up the status quo, and I'll agree about fighting the new green movement as stupidly myopic, I just don't agree about how he goes about it because he's an idiot and a charlatan posing as the messiah for all that is good about, and for, America. The right message but the wrong person, so wrong that the message is being destroyed just as he destroys everything he touches.


Well I just like that he actually goes about shaking up the status quo rather than the impotent lip service we get from the professional politicians who forget their campaign promises the second the election results are in. For that i am willing to put up with Trumps personality flaws.

However I will disagree with you about Trump being an idiot though. He's managed not only to beat the establishment candidate but has survived in the face of unprecedented political opposition. No idiot would have been able to persevere through all that.

[Rockstar]

No hostility August, just calling you out on making jabs at liberals in general for being liberal minded. :hmmm:

Rockstar, no the US should not be seen as a charity, but what message is being sent? We are your fair weather friends as long as you are in our interest zone, don't count on us or our word, we're only interested in us. So long suckers!




Before we get all teary eyed let me ask. There is the Kurdish YPP, PKK, and the KRG political parties. Which ones are we as you say supposedly friends with? They barely get along themselves and would eventually start fighting each other for power. Which Kurdish party should we send our troops to support when that happens?

[ikalugin]

- Create a new (Kurdish) nation-state to fight ISIS and oppose Assad.
- This new nation state theatens sovereighnity and territorial integrity of all existing states in the region (Syria, Turkey, Iraq, Iran, maybe others) due to having claims on their lands, some of those states are long established US allies and/or are balancing into falling under other's influence.
- Get surprised that none of the local states like the idea of Kurdish nation-state.
- Get outraged when local states react the same way they did to such a state (atleast Iraqis are not gassing them... not yet anyway).
- Push US allies to other partners.

To me it sounds like the well meaning western white man is shooting himself in the foot with hubris of imperialism again.

And lets assume that Kurdish nation-state becomes a thing by some miracle, it is going to be like Israel but worse:
- it is a landlocked country surrounded by enemies
- probably a center of instability, waging wars often
- probably discriminating/cleansing non Kurds due to it being an ethnostate with grievances

[Catfish]

Create a new (Kurdish) nation-state to fight ISIS and oppose Assad. [...]
This is how it should be :up: :D
Unfortunately what then happens is what you described after this first line.

And why "create" a nation state? Plain imperialism again.
How did 'nations' or 'states' emerge initially?
What we have from Afghanistan to the middle east (and worldwide) is the result of imperialism and colonies. England created borders across peoples territories in this region, England declared it to be "right" or "wrong".
Let them sort out the mess they created, and in which we have to live today.

Think about how and why the nation of Armenia (thanks Ikalugin ;)) even exists today, and Russia's role.

[ikalugin]

You mean Armenia? ;)

Ironically I am not against the idea of supporting Kurds in general, I am just pointing out that Turkish reaction that people find unpleasant is the result of the Western action and thus this outrage is... silly?

[u crank]

Interesting comments by Sen. Rand Paul on NBC's "Meet the Press".

..this is a hundred year old war between the Turks and the Kurds. Realize the president is asking is it in our national security interest to somehow figure out how the Kurds can live with the Turks?

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/10/13/rand_paul_are_we_going_to_send_american_sons_and_d aughters_to_force_turkey_to_get_along_with_the_kur ds.html

So there is this long history. And the question we have to ask is, and I have to ask, am I going to send the sons and daughters of America and mothers and fathers, and I'm to send them there to die to try to figure out how the Kurds and the Turks can get along? And I don't see that in our national interest. And we should vote on it. We should vote on it in congress and declare war if that's what people want.

But what I would say is this, we have to debate in congress. We are -- my oath is to the constitution. My oath isn't as to some promise that somebody thinks we made for a Kurdish homeland. We should vote. And here's the reason why we won't vote, they don't know who to declare war on?

Are we going to declare war on Turkey? We're going to declare war on the Free Syrian Army, which was our ally for seven years. Are we going to declare war on Assad?

[Rockstar]

add to the fact Turkey views all kurdush factions as terrorist organizations. are we then expected to support these terrorists organized against a member of NATO?

[Catfish]

I have always wondered .. Erdoghan who abolishes democracy, erects a dictatorship and leads his(ownership!) country as a dictator.
This Erdoghan describes all Kurds as terrorists.
And the well-meaning and ethically so superior West believes him.
Because, Nato-member.
Because holding back refugees, from Europe.
Because after the Kurds finished off the IS, the Kurds can go to hell.
Moral superiority..

The real morale: Think twice with whom you ally, this message has been heard loud and clear.

[Rockstar]

I have always wondered .. Erdoghan who abolishes democracy, erects a dictatorship and leads his(ownership!) country as a dictator.
This Erdoghan describes all Kurds as terrorists.
And the well-meaning and ethically so superior West believes him.
Because, Nato-member.
Because holding back refugees, from Europe.
Because after the Kurds finished off the IS, the Kurds can go to hell.
Moral superiority..

The real morale: Think twice with whom you ally, this message has been heard loud and clear.

its a confusing, convoluted, hazy, grey area, that nobody here really understands. Why? because we are to believe the consistent bombardment of petty arguements over trival emotionally charged subjects and party loyalty are more important. Hard to keep our leaders accountable when we dont take the time too understand the reality of middle east affairs ourselves. Instead we just spend our days insulting each other and posting stupid memes.

Oh btw, vote odin. :O:

[ikalugin]

I have always wondered .. Erdoghan who abolishes democracy, erects a dictatorship and leads his(ownership!) country as a dictator.
This Erdoghan describes all Kurds as terrorists.
And the well-meaning and ethically so superior West believes him.
Because, Nato-member.
Because holding back refugees, from Europe.
Because after the Kurds finished off the IS, the Kurds can go to hell.
Moral superiority..

The real morale: Think twice with whom you ally, this message has been heard loud and clear.
Because West created the problem of the Kurdish sovereighnity.

[Catfish]

I would rather say "The West" was the first to take Kurdish sovereignty seriously. Or better pretended to, while the Kurds were useful.
Just like with the Arabians (England), or Saddam Hussein's Iraq (USA) and so on.

I just realized this is exactly what you said :hmmm:

[Mr Quatro]

Amazing how these doves suddenly turn into war hawks when it's not their guy pulling our troops out of foreign entanglements.

its a confusing, convoluted, hazy, grey area, that nobody here really understands. Why? because we are to believe the consistent bombardment of petty arguements over trival emotionally charged subjects and party loyalty are more important. Hard to keep our leaders accountable when we dont take the time too understand the reality of middle east affairs ourselves. Instead we just spend our days insulting each other and posting stupid memes.

Oh btw, vote odin. :O:

August understands why ... The Doves are raising up their ugly heads :yep:

[Mr Quatro]

Seems money that can be made off of oil and gas in the Ukraine is not limited to just VP Biden's son.

Nancy Pelosi's son Pelosi Jr is on the board of Viscoil and an executive at NRGLab which is involved in the energy business in the Ukraine.

Just a little odd that's all ... Members of our upper elite have been making money on the side for years.

Wouldn't this qualify as part of the swamp?

[eddie]

Seems money that can be made off of oil and gas in the Ukraine is not limited to just VP Biden's son.

Nancy Pelosi's son Pelosi Jr is on the board of Viscoil and an executive at NRGLab which is involved in the energy business in the Ukraine.

Just a little odd that's all ... Members of our upper elite have been making money on the side for years.

Wouldn't this qualify as part of the swamp?


How much money has Trumps daughter and her husband made since being made advisors to the President, and haven't done crap. Over $80 Million in 3 years. So time to get off your pulpit, but Republicans area all above board and do no wrong! They are just adding to your stinking swamp homeboy!

[MaDef]

How much money has Trumps daughter and her husband made since being made advisors to the President, and haven't done crap. Over $80 Million in 3 years. So time to get off your pulpit, but Republicans area all above board and do no wrong! They are just adding to your stinking swamp homeboy!Before I take your word for it, how about citing some sources for your information? there's a world of difference between a blind trust and being an active board member of a corporation.

[vienna]

One picture is worth a thousand words...


https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=531&pictureid=10657




All the President's Profiting --

https://www.opensecrets.org/trump/trump-properties


Seems like the presidency has been a boon to the Trump family enterprises; going from well under USD $1,000,000 to high multiples following his run for office isn't at all suspicious or give the appearance of a possible conflict of interest... :03:


Note the nose dive the amounts took after 2016: could it be those who had been so eager to patronize the Trumps in 2016 decided that maybe it wasn't in their best interests to be associated with the semblance of graft or with the taint that become the hallmark of the Trump regime?...


Remember, every time The Fraudfather goes to Trump tower, or Mar-a-lago, or any of the other Trump properties he and his spawn insist on staying at, those properties bill back to the US Government for all the services and goods used by the Trumps, their minions, guest, and even the Secret Service; Trump family businesses are actually making a tidy profit every time they go to their own properties and bill us, the taxpayers, for their luxuries; if you recall, the in May of 2019, Trump met with the Irish Prime Minister, in Ireland, and they had their meeting in the VIP Lounge at Shannon Airport; the Irish PM had wanted to host Trump at an Irish Government owned castle, where other prior Presidents had been hosted, but Trump insisted the meeting be held at the Trump golf course and hotel in Doonbeg; the PM nixed the idea, most likely because the Irish Government would be billed but the Trump facility and hosting at the castle would be essentially free; so, the airport VIP Lounge it was...


President Trump will meet the Irish prime minister — at the airport --

https://www.vox.com/world/2019/5/29/18644731/trump-ireland-visit-leo-varadkar-shannon-airport


Add to the equations how many of the US government personnel and events have been 'innocently' steered to Trump properties and the air of 'innocence' turns into the acrid stench of graft...

...and this just the tip of the iceberg; add in how, for example, Kushner, Don Jr, and Ivanka, among others in the Trump organization, have been using their positions in the White House to get taxpayer-billed transportation to ostensibly engage in 'official government business' while also making use of those trips to conduct Trump family business meetings; Kusher, alone, has cost the US taxpayers a tidy sum when he makes those trips to Saudi Arabia and finds it convenient to conduct family business with their Saudi business partners...


I do know one thing for an absolute certainty: if Obama and his family, or the Clintons, were engaged in this sort of ripping off of the taxpayers, the GOP would be up on their hind legs, howling loudly in protest and demanding an impeachment. Anybody think that wouldn't happen?...







<O>

[vienna]

Before I take your word for it, how about citing some sources for your information? there's a world of difference between a blind trust and being an active board member of a corporation.


Would this do?...


How Don Jr., Ivanka, and Eric Trump Have Profited Off Their Dad's Presidency --

https://www.gq.com/story/trump-kids-profit-presidency


Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner made as much as $135m last year --

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/14/ivanka-trump-jared-kushner-revenue-income-2018


Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump made at least $82 million in outside income last year while serving in the White House, filings show --

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/jared-kushner-and-ivanka-trump-made-at-least-82-million-in-outside-income-last-year-while-serving-in-the-white-house-filings-show/2018/06/11/a41d0720-6dab-11e8-bd50-b80389a4e569_story.html


Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner Made $82 Million While Working in the White House Last Year --

https://fortune.com/2018/06/11/ivanka-trump-jared-kushner-made-82-million-while-working-white-house/



...and, of course, Daddy's gotta get a taste:


Ka-Ching - Donald Trump is raking in big bucks from emoluments foreign and domestic. ---

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2018-03-05/how-is-donald-trump-profiting-from-the-presidency-let-us-count-the-ways




Let us know if you need more; there's tons of this information out there in the real world beyond Fox News...











<O>

[MaDef]

Both Kushner and his wife took steps to distance themselves from their businesses before taking on their roles as unpaid White House advisers. Kushner stepped down as CEO of Kushner Companies and sold stakes in many holdings, while Ivanka Trump similarly stepped away from executive roles at her companies.
Both Kushner and Trump have given up daily oversight of their companies as they work as unpaid senior advisers to the president.
The money Trump receives from limited liability companies associated with the Trump Organization has been restructured into annual fixed payments of $1.5 million, “a change made in consultation with Office of Government Ethics officials to reduce her ‘interest in the performance of the business’

Like I said, there's a difference between a blind trust and actively running the business.

If you are going to charge malfeasance, you need more than speculation and innuendo if you want to be taken seriously.

[Rockstar]

I would rather say "The West" was the first to take Kurdish sovereignty seriously. Or better pretended to, while the Kurds were useful.
Just like with the Arabians (England), or Saddam Hussein's Iraq (USA) and so on.

I just realized this is exactly what you said :hmmm:


"pretended" is the perfect word. IMO it was just one of many reasons given for public consumption as a reason why our troops were in Syria since regime change doesn't sit well with most as a reason to deploy troops.

Ya gotta wonder what hell is the public thinking that could ever be accomplished but hey its for freedom and democracy. Too bad nobody ever looked at a map and gave it just a moment a thought for themselves. You just dont go around declaring a land locked region a sovereign state within the already existing boarders of other countries namely Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan. You might stand a slim chance of achieving that within one country but SIX?

[vienna]

Like I said, there's a difference between a blind trust and actively running the business.

If you are going to charge malfeasance, you need more than speculation and innuendo if you want to be taken seriously.


If you're going to plead a blind trust, there has to be an actual blind trust in place. What Trump has put in place is a revocable trust:


What's A Blind Trust, Anyway, And Why Won't It Work For President-Elect Trump? --

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2017/01/12/whats-a-blind-trust-anyway-and-why-wont-it-work-for-president-elect-trump/#77096593725b




A trust can be revocable, meaning that the person who created the trust (often called the grantor or settlor) can modify or terminate it at any time, or a trust can be irrevocable, meaning that the grantor cannot modify or terminate the trust (an irrevocable trust can typically only be modified or terminated with the permission of the beneficiary and/or by a court).


Normally, a blind trust is placed under the control of a neutral or 'disinterested' third party; the Trump trust(s) do not follow this normal setup and the trust(s) are administered by Donald Trump JR. and others close to the Trump organizations. It is well known Trump is a control freak and his placing of his trusts(s) in Don Jr.'s hands and those of his minions flies in the face of the definition of the term "blind trust":


What we know, and don't, about Trump's trust **

https://money.cnn.com/2017/02/08/news/trump-trust-what-we-know/index.html


...and Trump's revocable trust(s) actually allows him to tap into funds held by the trust(s) at will:


Trump Lawyer Confirms President Can Pull Money From His Businesses Whenever He Wants --

https://www.propublica.org/article/trump-pull-money-his-businesses-whenever-he-wants-without-telling-us?utm_campaign=sprout&utm_medium=social&utm_source=sprout&utm_content=1491221180


Change To President Trump's Trust Lets Him Tap Business Profits --

https://www.npr.org/2017/04/03/522511211/change-to-president-trumps-trust-lets-him-tap-business-profits --




The new document also sheds new light on how the trust works. It's run by two trustees, Donald Trump Jr. and an executive of the Trump Organization, who cannot give the president reports on the trust's finances. But Trump's second son, Eric, can do that as chair of the trust's advisory board, and told Forbes magazine last month that he plans to give his father big-picture financial briefings every quarter or so.

Before Trump, recent presidents sold their assets or put them into a blind trust when they took office.

"This is a ploy, okay?" said Kathleen Clark, a professor of law and ethics at Washington University in St Louis. "It's a public relations ploy to give people the impression that Trump has done something meaningful about the massive conflicts of interest he faces."

Those conflicts center mainly around his hotels and brands overseas, U.S. environmental laws that affect his golf courses, and his Washington, D.C., hotel.



So, no, Trump does not have a blind trust(s); his trust(s) don't even need glasses...


As noted before, what would be the GOP reaction if Obama or the Clintons engaged in such deviousness? Do ya think, maybe, the GOP might charge, maybe, ya know, 'malfeasance'?...










<O>

[MaDef]

Symantics Vienna.

[vienna]

Facts, law, research and reality, MaDef...


If you have any actual, verifiable facts, law, research, and/or reality to refute my post, rather than just a 'drive-by comment', it would interesting to hear it...


...oh, and it would also be interesting to hear your answer as to the reaction of the GOP if this situation was happening with a DEM President...








<O>

[Skybird]

Both Guiliani and Pence let deadlines expire for heanding over demanded evidence.



This shows why I said that the impeachment mechanism is just a farce, a strawman, a faulty design: ther eis no neutral legal instance involved that now can legally enforce the handing over of such documents/evidence, sinc ethe whole mechanism is only a poltial one,l no legal one. And thus, if the accused president has according majrities, he can ignore it since there is no legitimated court involved that could even activate legal means to force him or his accomplices to hand over what they had been ordered to hand over.


I think the whole impeachment design is just an alibi, meant to please the plebs and let them believe that if an office holder serioulsy abuses his power he could be removed by runnign this mechnaism, this process.



But any such process where the accused can decide the sentence if enough of his clan are sitting in the audience and cast their vote, is not worth the time.


A serious flaw in the constitutional design. Its a claimed safety that is unable to serve its purpose of a safety.


Neither the senate nor the congress should deice the outcome of an impeahcment. There should be strict criterions for when a party cna trigger the process. And should be decided not by parties and actors, but an independent instance with legal powers to force actors to comply. For example, I have not further thoguht about this detail, a special council of the High Court. An instance that in this case now can jail Guiliani or ence if they do nto comply with the court'S demand.



Impeahcment is a toothless tiger, and it probbaly was designed to be toothless from beginning on. It was meant to not work, and thus it is only an empty shell.


American citizens should want to change this. Its as if members of organised crime seat the seats of the judges and jurymen.


The separation of the three powers executive, legislative, judiciary, is not demanded for no reason in the Western state design.

[u crank]

American citizens should want to change this.

At the moment the only people who can change this are those in charge of the process, and right now that is the Democrats, specifically House leader Pelosi. She announced Tuesday that there will be no vote -- at least for now -- on the launch of formal impeachment proceedings against President Trump.

"There's no requirement that we have a vote, and so at this time we will not be having a vote," Pelosi said.

Not a big suprise. In the informal, no vote 'impeachment inquiry' what we now have is a tax payer funded, open ended, MSM driven opposition research plan against Trumps' 2020 campaign. Nothing wrong with that. I guess.

[Skybird]

As long as the outcome of an attempt to impeach a president is left to Congress and Senate, it deserve no real interest since it compares to a rigged trial for the reaosns I explained. It should be a High Court kickiong the president or not. A state attorney, an authority independent form the parties. The senetnce, the verdict must not be left to the accused and their accomplices. That is absurd. You do not make the offender, the charged, the suspect the judge of the court! It leads the whole excercise ad absurdum!

[u crank]

As long as the outcome of an attempt to impeach a president is left to Congress and Senate, it deserve no real interest since it compares to a rigged trial for the reaosns I explained.

Well like it or not that is the method. And if used properly is the right method. Impeachment is a political process and should not be left to anyone who is not an elected official. We just saw with the Mueller investigation how that system can and was abused.

The senetnce, the verdict must not be left to the accused and their accomplices. That is absurd. You do not make the offender, the charged, the suspect the judge of the court! It leads the whole excercise ad absurdum!


I'm not sure how you see that as the case. The problem is that unless the Democrats make some attempt at a bipartisan impeachment the whole thing will be exactly as it appears. If Republicans are not allowed to participate it is doomed. And it should be. And then there are questions about those in charge. When one of the lead characters is a lizard disguised as a human being then there is little credibility. Adam Schiff is a proven liar, serial leaker and a disseminator of false information. In a perfect and just world he would be under investigation.

[Mr Quatro]

"There's no requirement that we have a vote, and so at this time we will not be having a vote," Pelosi said.

Not a big suprise. In the informal, no vote 'impeachment inquiry' what we now have is a tax payer funded, open ended, MSM driven opposition research plan against Trumps' 2020 campaign. Nothing wrong with that. I guess.

Fueled by the ever present "Breaking News" news media with a few commercials thrown in :yep:

[MaDef]

Facts, law, research and reality, MaDef...


If you have any actual, verifiable facts, law, research, and/or reality to refute my post, rather than just a 'drive-by comment', it would interesting to hear it... How's this for a fact:
The main difference between a revocable trust and a blind trust is that when Trump leaves office he can regain control of his assets without having to go through probate court. So I repeat... semantics.


...oh, and it would also be interesting to hear your answer as to the reaction of the GOP if this situation was happening with a DEM President...
GOP and the DNC, flip sides of the same coin.



Maybe the "never Trumpers" should get together with the "Obama birthers" and start a support group.

[Skybird]

Well like it or not that is the method. And if used properly is the right method. Impeachment is a political process and should not be left to anyone who is not an elected official. We just saw with the Mueller investigation how that system can and was abused.

You leave the sentence to the accomplices. If you reject to admit that this turns any jury and court session into a joke, then you cannot be helped. You could charge Al Capone - and make his foloowres the judge and the jurymen. If you do nto9 see the contrsadfictioinn in your reaosningk,m, really, then you cannot be helped.



Yes impeachment is a political process. And that is the problem. The decision to kick a president is left to people with highly selfish agendas who must not and do not care for evidence, truth and state reason and law and order. Many Republicans, incoduing the speaker, said clearly that they will block any impeachement in the senate NO MATTER WHAT. Dig it? NO MATTER WHAT. They said, in other words: "We do not care for evidence, we do not care for justice, we keep the accused even if evidence proves him guilty. The laws do not interest us, state reaosn doe snot interest us, we just do not care, we want our careers saved and our next elecitons won. So show all your possible eveidnec b ecasue WE DO NOT CARE."



You unite judiciary and legislative in one hand, and make the executive an abandoned instance. In other words, you abandon checks and balances, and abandon separation of powers.



The cirteirons for launchin g an impoeachment must be set high, to prevent opportunistic abuse. But once the cirteirons are met and the process is troggered, it must be taken away from any poltlila infoluence by any party, moinstry, or any of the presidents accomplkices. IT MUST BE RUN INDEPENDENTLY, and the veridct must be found INDEPENDENTLY. And that is why it cannot be left a political process only, that is a charade. A joke. A carricature.

[Skybird]

Well like it or not that is the method. And if used properly is the right method. Impeachment is a political process and should not be left to anyone who is not an elected official. We just saw with the Mueller investigation how that system can and was abused.

You leave the sentence to the accomplices. If you reject to admit that this turns any jury and court session into a joke, then you cannot be helped. You could charge Al Capone - and make his foloowres the judge and the jurymen. If you do nto9 see the contrsadfictioinn in your reaosningk,m, really, then you cannot be helped.



Yes impeachment is a political process. And that is the problem. The decision to kick a president is left to people with highly selfish agendas who must not and do not care for evidence, truth and state reason and law and order. Many Republicans, incoduing the speaker, said clearly that they will block any impeachement in the senate NO MATTER WHAT. Dig it? NO MATTER WHAT. They said, in other words: "We do not care for evidence, we do not care for justice, we keep the accused even if evidence proves him guilty. The laws do not interest us, state reaosn doe snot interest us, we just do not care, we want our careers saved and our next elecitons won. So show all your possible eveidnec b ecasue WE DO NOT CARE."



You unite judiciary and legislative in one hand, and make the executive an abandoned instance. In other words, you abandon checks and balances, and abandon separation of powers.



The cirteirons for launchin g an impoeachment must be set high, to prevent opportunistic abuse. But once the cirteirons are met and the process is troggered, it must be taken away from any poltlila infoluence by any party, moinstry, or any of the presidents accomplkices. IT MUST BE RUN INDEPENDENTLY, and the veridct must be found INDEPENDENTLY. And that is why it cannot be left a political process only, that is a charade. A joke. A carricature.



Right now, the impeachment mechanism is almost meaningless. It leaves suspects and possible accomplices as bengn judges. That is what makes it all hilarious.

[Bilge_Rat]

As I see it, the "impeachment" is going nowhere;

-The Dems can't even agree to hold a vote to open the inquiry;

-There are lots of secret hearings, but I have trouble trying to keep up on what the Dems are accusing Trump of, from possible abuse of power in the july 25 phone call, we are now on the intricacies of ambassadorial appointments, tensions between permanent State employees and White House appointees, etc;

-recent polls show that Republican support for Trump and against impeachment has not wavered one bit, so this will die in the Senate in any event;

-Trump's job approval rating has not budged one bit in the past month, so no political hit at all from the "impeachment inquiry".

[Skybird]

As I see it, the "impeachment" is going nowhere;

-The Dems can't even agree to hold a vote to open the inquiry;

-There are lots of secret hearings, but I have trouble trying to keep up on what the Dems are accusing Trump of, from possible abuse of power in the july 25 phone call, we are now on the intricacies of ambassadorial appointments, tensions between permanent State employees and White House appointees, etc;

-recent polls show that Republican support for Trump and against impeachment has not wavered one bit, so this will die in the Senate in any event;

-Trump's job approval rating has not budged one bit in the past month, so no political hit at all from the "impeachment inquiry".


https://s17.directupload.net/images/191016/agt9eq3v.png (https://www.directupload.net)
https://s17.directupload.net/images/191016/a7y9edo3.png (https://www.directupload.net)
https://news.gallup.com/poll/267491/congress-approval-support-impeaching-trump.aspx

For Republicans in their wagon fort, the old quote form foreign politics applies which usually gets credited to Roosevelt, I think:
"Yes, he is a son of a bitch - but he is our son of a bitch."

When a justice system and when law and order degenerate to this low standard, then may the gods in heaven have mercy with man.


.

[u crank]

You leave the sentence to the accomplices. If you reject to admit that this turns any jury and court session into a joke, then you cannot be helped.

Yes impeachment is a political process. And that is the problem. The decision to kick a president is left to people with highly selfish agendas who must not and do not care for evidence, truth and state reason and law and order. Many Republicans, incoduing the speaker, said clearly that they will block any impeachement in the senate

Again you seem to misunderstand the American system of government, or you choose to ignore it. I understand your idealism but that does not carry the day. There is a very good reason why a sitting President cannot be indicted. Can you imagine the endless charges that would be brought against the chief executive. No Presidency would be able to function. So the system is set up so that the President can carry out his duties and still be held accountable by the electorate. Those Senators are part of that electorate and are only going vote to convict Trump if the majority of their constituents are in favor of it. Can you think of a better system? One that does not place the fate of a President in the hands of non elected officials. Or judges who were appointed by a polititian. Tell me how you would assure anyone that they would make an impartial decision not based on their political loyalties.

[Catfish]

Priceless. :haha:

[Skybird]

Again you seem to misunderstand the American system of government, or you choose to ignore it. I understand your idealism but that does not carry the day. There is a very good reason why a sitting President cannot be indicted. Can you imagine the endless charges that would be brought against the chief executive. No Presidency would be able to function. So the system is set up so that the President can carry out his duties and still be held accountable by the electorate. Those Senators are part of that electorate and are only going vote to convict Trump if the majority of their constituents are in favor of it. Can you think of a better system? One that does not place the fate of a President in the hands of non elected officials. Or judges who were appointed by a polititian. Tell me how you would assure anyone that they would make an impartial decision not based on their political loyalties.
Whatever it is that you put into your coffee - try to go without it and see if it helps.

I state again, for the repeated time: the criterions for launching an impeachment process, should be high, yes, right for the reason you gave, there you are totally correct: to prevent that impehcments gets launched by routine every year. But once started, the inquiry and the finding of the verdict must be left to a neutral authority that is independent from party interests and name loyalties, and individual career interests of senators, of congressmen, of interests of the president's accomplices. It is called: independence of justice. The accused, and people who have own interests at stake, cannot sit on a judges chair, nor can they sit in a jury, nor shall they be allowed to sit in an impeachment voting. Because they are not neutral, are not obliged to truth and law and justice and evidence, and have own interests

You ask if I could imagine a better system? Sure I can. Easily. Practically almost everything is better than the porked mechanism you have right now. Every idea forbidding that it is senators and congressmen deciding in a vote whether a president is impeached or not, is already a better system. Even flipping a coin is a better replacement already,. because probability, over several impeachment processes, will level out hits and misses. You should not leave the verdict to the accused or to people having own interests at stake. As it is now, it makes mockery of the intention behind having the impeachment mechnaism in the first, it is pointless, you could as well scrap it, it would be more honest. Right now its like letting an Al Capone and his accomplices sitting trial as judges over their own deeds and charges brought up against them. How can the accused be his own judge...? How can his accomplices be the jury...???

Either you understand the point there, or you don't, but stop wasting our time with this nonsense.

[August]

Anonymous partisan whistleblowers, secret proceedings, Republican committee members excluded during secret interviews, pressuring officials to lie under oath, deliberate mis-characterizations of events. Yeah the Dems have nothing, again. :up:


In a secret interview, Rep. Adam Schiff, leader of the House Democratic effort to impeach President Trump, pressed former United States special representative to Ukraine Kurt Volker to testify that Ukrainian officials felt pressured to investigate former Vice President Joe Biden's son Hunter as a result of Trump withholding U.S. military aid to Ukraine.
Volker denied that was the case, noting that Ukrainian leaders did not even know the aid was being withheld and that they believed their relationship with the U.S. was moving along satisfactorily, without them having done anything Trump mentioned in his notorious July 25 phone conversation with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky.
When Volker repeatedly declined to agree to Schiff's characterization of events, Schiff said, "Ambassador, you're making this much more complicated than it has to be."
The interview took place Oct. 3 in a secure room in the U.S. Capitol. While the session covered several topics, the issue of an alleged quid pro quo — U.S. military aid in exchange for a Ukrainian investigation of the Bidens and a public announcement that such an investigation was underway — was a significant part of the discussion.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/schiff-pressed-volker-to-say-ukraine-felt-pressure-from-trump

[August]

You ask if I could imagine a better system? Sure I can. Easily. Practically almost everything is better than the porked mechanism you have right now. Every idea forbidding that it is senators and congressmen deciding in a vote whether a president is impeached or not, is already a better system. Even flipping a coin is a better replacement already,. because probability, over several impeachment processes, will level out hits and misses. You should not leave the verdict to the accused or to people having own interests at stake. As it is now, it makes mockery of the intention behind having the impeachment mechnaism in the first, it is pointless, you could as well scrap it, it would be more honest. Right now its like letting an Al Capone and his accomplices sitting trial as judges over their own deeds and charges brought up against them. How can the accused be his own judge...? How can his accomplices be the jury...???


So are all 63 million people that voted for Trump also accomplices comparable to Al Capone and his gang, or just the Republican senators? Your arguments are getting ridiculous Skybird, just like the Democrats impeachment witch hunt.

[Skybird]

Ah, its the hour of the day again when you turn pathetic, eh?


I say this: if you KNOW that you are going to vote for a criminal, then you are indeed kind of an accomplice, and I say you even shall be held legally accountable.



But as I say since years: everybody voting should know by now what kind of breed he is dealing with when legitimising career politicians that made it their living model to run term after term after term. I am strictly against this, and always have said that. Two terms, for exmaple - then the perosn has to leave politics once and forever. A caste of professional, life-long career politicians should not be allowed at all in a preventive step against right this problem showing up right now: that dozens of Republican senators support their speaker when he told the public that they do not care for evidence against Trump but will stop his impeachment anyway, NO MATTER WHAT. They say by this: we do not care for the truth, we do not care for justice, we do not care for evidence, we do not care for law and order, we do not care for state reason - our own selfish interest weighs heavier than this. And this should be the jury deciding whether Trump gets impeached or not...??? Have you guys lost your marbles...???



These senators indeed are what the accomplices of Al Capone's gang were.

Accomplices and accused suspects shall not be allowed to head court sessions as their own judges. A suspect cannot be a juryman or the judge at the same time, nor can his accomplices be. How is it called when a judge is suspected of not being neutral? In German law temrinology, its called Befangenheit, English calls it I think conflicting interests, such a judge can be recused - for good reason. Because he is biased. All party members, congressmen and senators must be recused in an impeashcment trial, becasue they all have own interests. Thats why the decision, the verdict, must be left to somebody else. And yes, that includes the Democrats as well.



You guys are certain thty you indeed understand what the function of a court is and what a judge is? Your blind rage in defending Trump NO MATTER WHAT, with the most hilarious intellectual distortions, raises serious doubts in me that you even understood the very basics of the justice system, the separation of powers, the checks and balances - why all this was implemented the way it was, and what they tried toi achieve with that. It does not matter whether Trump was elected or not. If he breaks the laws and constitution, what he has and has done right in front of thre world and with running mikes and camera, he is an offender. And beign elected should not make somebody immune to be held repsonsible by the law for that.


I advocate for years and years that pltlicianbs must be liable for their acts, deeds and decisions. Right now they are almost not at all, and whatever damasge they do, they must not fear being held responsib ole for it. That is a desaster that explains a lot of what is runnign bad in polticla culuter and why it is as rotten as it is. Thes epeople miust not take perosnal risks, but can always put the people'ÄS money at risk instead. It shall not be allowed that politicians can save themaselves form t eh cosnequences of what they rule and decide.



Corporation managers and bankers alike, for that matter.



Its absurd, Americans often boast with wanting to be such a great and wonderful democracy, and how historically important it was, and being the cradle of it (wrong, btw, but okay) - and here I sit and must defend the very basics, the most profound principles of the Western legal tradition and justice systems against you and must explain to you why there is (or should I alkready say: was?) somethign like the separation of the three powers. Its absurd. And shows how bad the polarization of politics in America already have become. Some of you defend implicitly: arbitrary justice, and even tyranny - and you do not even realise it!


You must have gone nuts over there, totally nuts.



Enough on this from me, I'm out. Later days, other fights.

[mapuc]

Each country have their type of political system

It is the people in those countries who shall demand a change if so wanted or needed.

I myself respect this.
(To remove any doubt-I'm talking about democracy where people can vote)

I do hope if an American President in the furture is accused of having commit a crime before he or she became President is prosecuted for this crime and not being protected just because he or she is a elected President.

But again this is up to the American people to decide or the politicians elected by the people.

Markus

[Skybird]

Each country have their type of political system

It is the people in those countries who shall demand a change if so wanted or needed.

I myself respect this.
(To remove any doubt-I'm talking about democracy where people can vote)

I do hope if an American President in the furture is accused of having commit a crime before he or she became President is prosecuted for this crime and not being protected just because he or she is a elected President.

But again this is up to the American people to decide or the politicians elected by the people.

Markus


Thank God the same was not said 80 years ago. ;) You want to be moderate and kind, mapuc. But think a moment on whether really everything deserves this kind intention of yours.

[u crank]

But once started, the inquiry and the finding of the verdict must be left to a neutral authority that is independent from party interests and name loyalties, and individual career interests of senators, of congressmen, of interests of the president's accomplices.

In the United States just who would that be? To my knowledge no such authority exists. Do you know of one? Would you like to invent one?

I think you need to do some homework. You obviously do not understand the American system of government. Or you do understand it and you just don't like it. I really don't care which it is but it gets tiresome discussing a subject with people who lack the basics.

Either you understand the point there, or you don't...

I think I understand your point all too well. It is not based on any real knowledge or understanding of the subject matter. Instead you are trying to invent some quasi idealistic justice system that doesn't exist. I have no idea why except that you don't like certain outcomes and this is just complaining about the outcome.

..but stop wasting our time with this nonsense.

Priceless. :haha:

[Onkel Neal]

Its absurd, Americans often boast with wanting to be such a great and wonderful democracy, and how historically important it was, and being the cradle of it (wrong, btw, but okay) - and here I sit and must defend the very basics, the most profound principles of the Western legal tradition and justice systems against you and must explain to you why there is (or should I already say: was?) something like the separation of the three powers. Its absurd. And shows how bad the polarization of politics in America already have become. Some of you defend implicitly: arbitrary justice, and even tyranny - and you do not even realize it!






Well, it certainly is becoming hard to boast of American greatness with a straight face these days. Bill Cosby is a rapist, Bruce Jenner is a chick, and Donald Trump is the President of the United States. We're in an episode of Lost!

[August]

I think I understand your point all too well. It is not based on any real knowledge or understanding of the subject matter. Instead you are trying to invent some quasi idealistic justice system that doesn't exist. I have no idea why except that you don't like certain outcomes and this is just complaining about the outcome.


Ask him about his policy for deliberately targeting (with missiles and bombs) the families of government officials that he doesn't like in order to discourage corruption. :doh:

[Skybird]

Ach, Donald... :)



https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/no-president-trump-the-pkk-terrorist-group-is-not-worse-than-isis


People have tatoos, brandings, and piercings. Maybe you want to consider to have your lips sewed up so that no stupid babble can escape your noise hatch anymore, and tell them to have you also wearing mittens so that you also must not twitter anymore.


Seriously - what a deeply confused mind on display, just parroting what Erdoghan puts in his mouth (or in the past: Putin), and telling bull back and forth over the Syrian story. I mean when not being busy lambasting Pelosi.



Most sad is that he actually seems to believe all that drivel he produces. Well, Messiah syndrome. What should one say.

[Mr Quatro]

How's your stomach acid doing Sky? :hmmm:

[Dowly]

Trump's letter to Erdogan:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EHBmdVLW4AIk3IT.jpg


:har:

[Catfish]

^ Don't tell me this is real. This is a bad joke?

[Skybird]

:har:Trump's letter to Erdogan:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EHBmdVLW4AIk3IT.jpg


:har:


First I thought you were kidding and the letter was a joke.


But it is real...! :o


A little boy in the body of an old man, playing president. Behaving as a tough guy as he has seen it on TV in some crime movies form his childhood: fist on the table, stomping feet, straight talking, jovial tapping on the shoulder: "Ain't we two tough fellas getting along so nicely?! The world is ours, shake hands - deal! Lets smoke chocolade cigarettes together." Little brain, brain's just for whimps, shooting bullets from the hip, bam-bam-bam-! thats for tough guys, bambam-bam-bam!, talking monkey, that is manly, no, that is serious! That is honest! That is grreat (tm)! Everythign else is FAKE! Is UNFAIR!


:har:


Infantile. Simply infantile. Mercilessly revealing how unripe and immature this little boy is.

Thats the friendly way to describe it. There is another way to tell the narration: an old man with clear signs of senile dementia and age-related mawkishness that old people sometimes come up with when reaching the high age, all this combined with a certain choleric temper, inbred megalomania and and a certain kind of weepiness.

Needing to balance all this against each other, it is no wonder that he behaves as ridiculous as he does.

[Skybird]

"In response, Turkish presidential sources said: "President Erdogan received the letter, thoroughly rejected it and put it in the bin." "


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-50080737



Oh look - signs of sanity in Ankara! The only valid thing to do with such a Machwerk, I say.

[Skybird]

The House of Representatives on Wednesday approved a resolution opposing the Trump administration's move to withdraw US forces from Syria (https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/13/politics/us-troops-syria-turkey/index.html). The vote was 354-60 with four members voting present.

--CNN -


354 - 60.

The current seats hold a majority for Democrats of only 234 - 197. This means the majority of Republicans in congress must have voted against the little boy playing president. No wonder he was so pissed that he lambasted Pelosi in frustration.

[Onkel Neal]

"In response, Turkish presidential sources said: "President Erdogan received the letter, thoroughly rejected it and put it in the bin." "


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-50080737



Oh look - signs of sanity in Ankara! The only valid thing to do with such a Machwerk, I say.

I wonder how long it is until one of these leaders decides to wipe his butt with a trump letter....?

[Skybird]

I wonder how long it is until one of these leaders decides to wipe his butt with a trump letter....?
We could start a business there, Neal, you and me, and we would get stinking rich. Small endless copies of Trump's letters as toilet paper, selling them on rolls in packs of 6 or 8. :yeah:

[mapuc]

This is how I see it.

Trump does not master the skill of diplomacy.

I would recommend him to hire a person who does.

Markus

[Dowly]

This is how I see it.

Trump does not master the skill of diplomacy.

I would recommend him to hire a person who does.

Markus
The problem is that Trump does not master the skill of hiring good people either. And in the rare occasion he does, they get fired or resign.

[Skybird]

Not before this evening'S TV news I learned that the letter was not leaked by somebody, but that Trump voluntarily published it in the asusmption of that it would halp him to defend his claim that he had givne no green light to Turkey.



:har:


Hopeless. Completely disconnected from reality.

[Bilge_Rat]

from today's Reuters/Ipsos poll:

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/attachment.php?attachmentid=2911&stc=1&d=1571340513

majority of Independents and Republicans are against impeachment. The rise in the polls for impeachment is all driven by the Dems.

[August]

I wonder how long it is until one of these leaders decides to wipe his butt with a trump letter....?


Didn't Syria do that when they ignored his warning about using poisonous gas and got their air base bombed? Well apparently in this case Erdogan decided to agree to a cease fire when just a few days ago swore he would never entertain such an idea. Funny that.

[Skybird]

from today's Reuters/Ipsos poll:

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/attachment.php?attachmentid=2911&stc=1&d=1571340513

majority of Independents and Republicans are against impeachment. The rise in the polls for impeachment is all driven by the Dems.


So the party of the president does not want their man being thrown out. Well, it seems today I learned neither something new nor suprising. Isnt every government party usually clinging to power and staying glued to the throne like being "Pattexed?" :03:


The only interesting surprise in those numbers is that category "all adults": a stalemate between supporters and opponents of impeachment, and that the numbers do not change between "all adults" and "registered voters in total" (almost the same stalemate in pc). That shows how wide the rift betwen political camps in civil society is, and to what degree it covers all society: 85% of society takes sides in this, only 15% have no opinion, interest, whatever. That qualifies the issue for the title of being a hot topic, I think.

[vienna]

Didn't Syria do that when they ignored his warning about using poisonous gas and got their air base bombed? Well apparently in this case Erdogan decided to agree to a cease fire when just a few days ago swore he would never entertain such an idea. Funny that.


Not really. Just after Pence made his pronouncement, the Turkish government made clear the 'agreement' was not a full cease fire but, rather a "pause" in operations, meaning the Turks can pretty well start up again anytime they want; yet another case of a Trump "accomplishment"'s hype being far greater than its reality...

It should also be pointed out the US really got very little in this deal and the Turks got pretty much everything they wanted vis-a-vis the Kurds and their territory. If there was a capitulation, it was on the side of the US, under Trump, caving in to Erdogan's wishes; the Kurds are still screwed, the ISIS prisoners will still most likely go free to regroup and fight another day, the security and stability of the region, and, by extension, of the US is highly compromised, and the status of the US as a world leader and power remains diminished. But, hey, what was to be expected from a 'foreign policy' crafted by a petulant Oval Office toddler?...







<O>

[vienna]

from today's Reuters/Ipsos poll:

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/attachment.php?attachmentid=2911&stc=1&d=1571340513

majority of Independents and Republicans are against impeachment. The rise in the polls for impeachment is all driven by the Dems.


Hmm, one poll...


How's about an averaging of a lot of polls?...:


Polls show Americans have come to support Trump's impeachment much faster than Nixon's or Clinton’s --

https://www.yahoo.com/news/polls-show-americans-have-come-to-support-trumps-impeachment-much-faster-than-nixons-or-clintons-155418911.html





For the first time, a majority of Americans said this week that they supported the impeachment of President Trump. Not just in one, outlying poll — in an average of all current national polls compiled by the data journalists at FiveThirtyEight.

For Trump this polling milestone comes less than one month after reports first surfaced of a Ukraine whistleblower and roughly three weeks after House Speaker Nancy Pelosi announced the start of a formal impeachment inquiry — meaning that it represents a historical milestone as well.

Trump hasn’t just crossed the 50 percent threshold on impeachment, peaking at 50.3 percent earlier this week. He’s gotten there faster than Richard Nixon — and, for that matter, Bill Clinton, who never got there at all.






The FiveThirtyEight link:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/do-americans-support-impeaching-president-trump/


...and a link to a spreadsheet of all the polls FiveThirtyEight assembled:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vS15V8lYPUc_OH4OBss6d8NPGRnCH1lAlBBY4FYWcK6cm6iVM 8dXE_4KMFOUybRe-cVvDg7ap46FPig/pubhtml?gid=39569490&single=true


The bottom line is Trump's support is rapidly eroding and his 'core' really isn't large enough to give him a solid victory in 2020 on its own; losing the favor of Independents, like myself, has been a trend for Trump ever since he took office and it hasn't really gotten any better and Trump (or any other GOP candidate) really, really needs those Independent votes...







<O>

[vienna]

Turkey's authoritarian leader is walking all over the United States thanks to Trump --

https://www.insider.com/turkey-authoritarian-leader-walking-all-over-the-us-and-trump-2019-10







<O>

[Jimbuna]

^ Quite an interesting take on the matter.

[Skybird]

Well, it pays off to be gifted with great and unmatched wisdom (tm). He alone could have fixed it (RNC 7/2016).






Reading through the many quotes by him that illustrates his ridiculousness, is more laughter than a good ol' Laurel&Hardy movie. Enjoy the show! :up: :D:


https://www.liveabout.com/donald-trump-quotes-2733859

[Rockstar]

oh looky, another article about "the Kurds"

How many here are prepared to send troops in all out war against an NATO ally who is fighting a group of "the kurds" namely the Kurdistan Workers Party viewed by both the U.S. and Turkey as a terrorist organization. How many here are ready to send troops to defend "the kurds" in Syria namely Y.P.G. who granted were supposedly good ISIS fighters. But being allied with them put a helluva strain on Turkish U.S. relations because are they known to have very deep ties to the above terrorist organization and are now allied with Syria and thought to be working with Russia to defend the Assad Shia backed regime?

Any other "the Kurds" in and around Syria I should be made aware of, maybe those are "the Kurds" they're talking about in the article we betrayed? Those poor "the Kurds" they get no respect.

[Skybird]

NATO ally? Your Pentagon seems to consider emergency-evacuation of its 50+ nukes in Incirlik, that much "alliedness" with Turkey is left. NATO ally Turkey fired artillery at your troops to make them run faster. NAOT ally Turkey has provoked Russia and Syria in the past with military aggressive acts, shooting down planes and loosing one plane being shot down. NATO ally Trueky openly babbles about claims for rtetaking lost Ottoman soil on the Balkans and in the Aegean, threatening NATO ally Greece with rertakign islands, and pörovoking the eU and again NATO ally Gtreece with sending gas mining ships with mioliutary escports into waters of caprus that are not theirs, doing it like the Chiense do and just claiming the territory. NATO ally Tukrey frequently offens Wetsenr politians, has more academci and journalists jailed than any other copuntr yion the world (and that really means something if you cna claim this recvord!), and recently ha stsrated toi babble openly about wantign to get nukes - if not the US bombs at Incirlik (which obviously implies that they want to take possession of them, which may explain the Pentgaon'S sudden nervousness), than building their own.



No, this Turkey is no NATO ally anymore, and it is not that since many, many years already. It goes back at least to 2003 already. Today it is a poison in NATO's blood vessels.



Regarding the Kurds, I repeat what I said earlier: your timing is an offense and a disgust. You throw guests off the boat on the high ocean instead of sailing back to a harbour, at least a beach, and unload them there. Erdoghan got what he wanted. Assad gets some for free. Putin got what he wanted. The little boy got - NOTHING but mockery, well deserved.



Rockstar, there is no excuse for doing it this way. There just is no excuse. 354:60 congressmen agree with this assessment, at least - of the 60 remaining supporters, some may also know it is wrong, but choosed to put their career interests above moral. Its a crime, it is inhumane, it is cynical, it is assistance of murder and war crime - you created the space where it would, and could and so did materialise. And the little boy in the way to big office today wants to make it appear as if he had run a mediation job in a playground fighting. The little boy has just dung in his head.



If you want to get rid of the guests on your boat, you go back to harbour or go back to the beach. You do not throw them overboard on the high ocean and watch as they drown.



No external enemy could have destroyed the US' prestige any more competely, than the little boy already has done. When he is done with America, his destcrive heritage will kepe onlioving in your society for years and decades to come. He has infested evertyhing with a fission fungus to which no cleaner seems to exist.

[Bilge_Rat]

Hmm, one poll...


How's about an averaging of a lot of polls?...:


Polls show Americans have come to support Trump's impeachment much faster than Nixon's or Clinton’s --

https://www.yahoo.com/news/polls-show-americans-have-come-to-support-trumps-impeachment-much-faster-than-nixons-or-clintons-155418911.html





The FiveThirtyEight link:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/do-americans-support-impeaching-president-trump/


...and a link to a spreadsheet of all the polls FiveThirtyEight assembled:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vS15V8lYPUc_OH4OBss6d8NPGRnCH1lAlBBY4FYWcK6cm6iVM 8dXE_4KMFOUybRe-cVvDg7ap46FPig/pubhtml?gid=39569490&single=true




<O>

All you are doing is parroting the MSM. They keep pushing the Dem party line that support for impeachment is rising, but if you dig deep in all polls and I could post my analysis of all polls if you really want, you see that suppprt for impeachment is only rising among Dimocrats who will never vote for Trump in any event.

Stop parroting the party line, do you own research for a change.

[Skybird]

The polls show party preferences and thus: the depth of the trenches in this warfare done in this highly polarized political landscape.

Political interests of politicians dictate their going on impeachment. Guilt, facts, evidence, responsibility are relatively irrelveant. The decisions of impeachment is left to the completely wrong and most unsuited group of persons.

The govenrment party does not want their man being impeached. What surprise! It mostly does not care for the truth, the damage, the obvious facts. Their man may be a son of a bitch, but it is their son of a bitch and he gives them access to power.

https://qz.com/1729426/how-to-know-which-trump-impeachment-polls-to-believe/

party identification (https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/02/05/republicans-and-democrats-have-grown-further-apart-on-what-the-nations-top-priorities-should-be/) has become the primary determinant of most attitudes in the US.Or as I said: tribalism.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/02/05/republicans-and-democrats-have-grown-further-apart-on-what-the-nations-top-priorities-should-be/

[Mr Quatro]

Polls? You can't trust them yet you quote them ... :hmmm:

You misewell park an RV that says 'Democrat' next to one that says 'Republican' in front of Walmart and then ask people to step inside to take a poll :yep:

[Rockstar]

NATO ally? Your Pentagon seems to consider emergency-evacuation of its 50+ nukes in Incirlik, that much "alliedness" with Turkey is left. NATO ally Turkey fired artillery at your troops to make them run faster. NAOT ally Turkey has provoked Russia and Syria in the past with military aggressive acts, shooting down planes and loosing one plane being shot down. NATO ally Trueky openly babbles about claims for rtetaking lost Ottoman soil on the Balkans and in the Aegean, threatening NATO ally Greece with rertakign islands, and pörovoking the eU and again NATO ally Gtreece with sending gas mining ships with mioliutary escports into waters of caprus that are not theirs, doing it like the Chiense do and just claiming the territory. NATO ally Tukrey frequently offens Wetsenr politians, has more academci and journalists jailed than any other copuntr yion the world (and that really means something if you cna claim this recvord!), and recently ha stsrated toi babble openly about wantign to get nukes - if not the US bombs at Incirlik (which obviously implies that they want to take possession of them, which may explain the Pentgaon'S sudden nervousness), than building their own.



No, this Turkey is no NATO ally anymore, and it is not that since many, many years already. It goes back at least to 2003 already. Today it is a poison in NATO's blood vessels.



Regarding the Kurds, I repeat what I said earlier: your timing is an offense and a disgust. You throw guests off the boat on the high ocean instead of sailing back to a harbour, at least a beach, and unload them there. Erdoghan got what he wanted. Assad gets some for free. Putin got what he wanted. The little boy got - NOTHING but mockery, well deserved.



Rockstar, there is no excuse for doing it this way. There just is no excuse. 354:60 congressmen agree with this assessment, at least - of the 60 remaining supporters, some may also know it is wrong, but choosed to put their career interests above moral. Its a crime, it is inhumane, it is cynical, it is assistance of murder and war crime - you created the space where it would, and could and so did materialise. And the little boy in the way to big office today wants to make it appear as if he had run a mediation job in a playground fighting. The little boy has just dung in his head.



If you want to get rid of the guests on your boat, you go back to harbour or go back to the beach. You do not throw them overboard on the high ocean and watch as they drown.
No external enemy could have destroyed the US' prestige any more competely, than the little boy already has done. When he is done with America, his destcrive heritage will kepe onlioving in your society for years and decades to come. He has infested evertyhing with a fission fungus to which no cleaner seems to exist.




The boat is still afloat Skybird, and they are still on it, and they are at the helm. Let them crash it into the rocks if they so desire. We went there and allied ourselves with the Y.P.G. and others SUPPOSEDLY in an attempt to rid the area of ISIS. But honestly I'm not even sure that's completely factual. But if true, when ISIS was SUPPOSEDLY reduced to a ineffective rabble it was time to go. Syria, and the Y.P.G., who incidentally has made no attempt to hide its current alliance with Syria and the known Kurdish terrorist group P.K.K., is now fighting against Turkey. It doesnt have jack squat do to with betrayal of poor teary eyed defensless Kurds just wanting freedom and democracy. This is a war between Shia Islam and the Muslim Brotherhood for the acquisition and expansion of power. And yes I am well aware that the Kurd majority is Sunni but guess where those Kurdish Y.P.P. and P.K.K. minortity Shia are at? You guessed it Syria! Fighting the Brotherhood in Turkey.


Its probably why we are sending troops and missiles to Saudi Arabia a predominantly Sunni nation in case things get out of hand.

Im not so sure Putin got what he wanted either. He's standing in the middle of two warring factions of Islam. If he can broker a settlement then all the more power to him, its his backyard. But its no problem to break a settlement over there so long as there remains a never ending supply of zealots willing to kill. Which still makes it a near effortless task for the U.S. to influence instability at will. Hell, I wouldnt doubt we're getting ready to ship out a bunch of new Toyota trucks to some obsure militant group or another as we speak. In the name of freedom and democracy of course. :D


Articles like the Insider offer pages of text but say little. I find them utterly useless.

[Skybird]

The explanation why you overstayed your time in syria, is relatvely simple: Assad. Your government thought you could keep a foot in the door and prevent the Russian game in syria from working by staying there and creating a reality that Putin could not just ignore. But then came Trump and Erdoghan, and the Turk saw that he could very well just ognore the Americans, and that he could reprogram Little Boy and make him his puppet for a day of decisions, which Little Boy than made indeed : and indeed according to Erdoghan reprogramming and fully to Turkish interest.

I said it already days ago, I have no principle problem with the AQmeican troops pulling out. After all, they indeed overstayed their once proclaimed mission, and after all Little Boy also promised ot his voters to get troops back home. It is the bloodshedding timing and the price of this resulting betrayal that I attack. The decison by Little Boy directly led to an immense bloodshed and atricdities beign acrried out, today again.

Little Boy is a clueless idiot that even now does not understand what he has done. Nor would he care if he would understand it, since he has never cared for other lives, or human dignity for that matter. Your nation assists Turkish aggression and created the opportunity for them to strike. That makes you accomplices of the attackers in this bloodshed. I do not know whether many Americans are proud of their country'S role in this, I hope not. But Little Boy surely is.

[Mr Quatro]

Im not so sure Putin got what he wanted either.



Putin just wanted a gateway to the Med that's all :yep:

[Rockstar]

I thought about that. I have this sneaking suspicion we could have gone to fight with the Shia Y.P.G. against ISIS sort of kill the enemy of my enemy. In an attempt to gain their favor and assistance to help us overthrow Assad. Didnt work out. If so it would appear the bonds of Shia Islam are stronger than our offer of recognition, power and arms I guess.

If Russia wants Syria that bad they will have to contend with situations NATO, Ukraine and Syria. We'll see how it goes.

[mapuc]

Guys I find this thread very interesting to follow and it became even more interesting after Trump won the Presidential election.

I therefore hope he will win another term in the White House.

If a political correct politician should win instead and take seat in the Oval Office, this US Politics thread could be very bored.

Markus

[Skybird]

Guys I find this thread very interesting to follow and it became even more interesting after Trump won the Presidential election.

I therefore hope he will win another term in the White House.

If a political correct politician should win instead and take seat in the Oval Office, this US Politics thread could be very bored.

Markus


https://i0.wp.com/metro.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/pri_57746792.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&zoom=1&resize=644%2C644&ssl=1

[August]

So the party of the president does not want their man being thrown out.


That is the exact opposite of what he said. :doh:

[Mr Quatro]

Guys I find this thread very interesting to follow and it became even more interesting after Trump won the Presidential election.

I therefore hope he will win another term in the White House.

If a political correct politician should win instead and take seat in the Oval Office, this US Politics thread could be very bored.

Markus

I find you fascinating to follow too Markus with your innocence :yep:

I wish more Europeans were like you :up:

[eddie]

All you are doing is parroting the MSM. They keep pushing the Dem party line that support for impeachment is rising, but if you dig deep in all polls and I could post my analysis of all polls if you really want, you see that suppprt for impeachment is only rising among Dimocrats who will never vote for Trump in any event.

Stop parroting the party line, do you own research for a change.


As if you don't push your stinking party line,lol

[Skybird]

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/18/hillary-clinton-tulsi-gabbard-russias-050991


I immediately believce it, for this is what I expected sionc elong formt he russian, thats the way I would ahve done it if wantign to bring the little boy into a seocnd term: splitting up and corrutpoing the unity of the democrats. I do not know the names in US politics well enough as if i could have figured the most likely name that the Russian build on for their purpose. It seems now I have it.



For the Russians, the Lil' Boy is the ideal replacement for a real president in the WH, since the absence of a president worth the name means a US acvting cleuless, headless, and self-damaging - and such an America poses no threat to Russian geopolitical interests. And the unique personality characteristics of Lil Boy, with his enomrous deifict at the same time making Lil Boy incapable to become aware of his problems, may even open the opportunity to take the US out of the big game completely.

[u crank]

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/18/hillary-clinton-tulsi-gabbard-russias-050991


I immediately believce it, for this is what I expected sionc elong formt he russian, thats the way I would ahve done it if wantign to bring the little boy into a seocnd term:

Really? Are you serious?

Welcome to Wonderland.

:har:

[u crank]

It is kinda sad in a way.

But....this latest bit of crazy along with everything she has said since the 2016 election loss proves beyond a doubt...this woman should not have been president. Say what you want about Trump but Hillary Clinton is delusion. She needs help.

And she needs to go away.

[Onkel Neal]

Yes, very true. Hillary is "the queen of warmongers, embodiment of corruption, and personification of the rot that has sickened the Democratic Party"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55hVhbBfNig

Gabbi fires back!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtgCC5cZP5Q

I would seriously consider switching to Democrat in 2020 if this woman is the Dem candidate. I do not agree with all of her positions but I think she would bring dignity back to the White House, and I'm sick of Trump 24/7.

[Mr Quatro]

Hillary Clinton is showing what kind of leader she would've made, plus
she's burning her bridges :yep:

[Rockstar]

Look, I have the utmost respect for the Russians and Putin. But they are not the economic and military powerhouse they once were in the 50's, 60's and 70's. They have had relations with Syria for a very long time if they want to maintain that so be it, but I dont think will be easy. They certainly don't have the economy to rebuild Syria so I'm not sure what they have to offer anymore other than weapons. And these days you got too be careful who gets them because you could find them pointed right back at you. Especially in that hell hole.

But we can supply zealots too, notice now that we're leaving and guess who is supposedly coming back? As a citizen of the Great State of Maryland I think we have spoon fed heapin' helpful of good ol' fashioned B.S. as to what our foreign policy was in Syria. If anyone thinks it was for justice, independence, friendships, freedom and democracy is a gullible dumbass. If any can detail a plan and its a good one then you got my support. But honestly I have no real freaking clue why we were in Syria as long as we were.

No reason to cry how we left either. It was a place filled with jealousies, war, death, hunger, and injury long before we got there. Neither our arrival and departure changed any of that. They never left the boat and are in fact are driving the blasted thing. Like I said if they want to drive it into the rocks so be it.


Anyway Im surprised, I thought everyone would be jumping for joy as it is the friends of Jamel Kkashoggi, The Muslim Brotherhood the peace loving freedom fighters for even more freedom and democracy that strongly support and keep Erdogan in power. Now I see why the Kingdom may have wanted to silence him. They didn't want what is going on in Syria happening in their country.

[Skybird]

Yes, very true. Hillary is "the queen of warmongers, embodiment of corruption, and personification of the rot that has sickened the Democratic Party"
What is Clintons motive to damage Gabbard by raising claims she know are unfounded? Clinton does not run herself, doesnt she? Any open bills between the two?



I would seriously consider switching to Democrat in 2020 if this woman is the Dem candidate. I do not agree with all of her positions but I think she would bring dignity back to the White House, and I'm sick of Trump 24/7.There is a better candidate.


https://s3.amazonaws.com/file.imleagues/Images/Teams/Uploaded/201301/201318192410.jpg

[Onkel Neal]

Too late! :D

Aloha,

I personally wanted to send my deep appreciation and thanks for your contribution.

If you can, please take a moment to share our message with 5 of your friends and help us get the word out about our campaign.

Your support means everything to me. This is a people-powered campaign. We don’t accept PAC money, and we value every single hard-earned dollar. Your support keeps us on the road, and helps spread our message of service before self.

When we stand united, motivated by care for each other and love for our country, there’s no challenge we cannot overcome.

With warm aloha,
Tulsi

[mapuc]

I doubt the politicians in USA is different from other countries where there are democracy

Meaning they say what you want to hear, in an effort to get you to put you vote on one this politician.

Markus

[MaDef]

I doubt the politicians in USA is different from other countries where there are democracy

Meaning they say what you want to hear, in an effort to get you to put you vote on one this politician.

MarkusThat is what people like about President Trump He is actively making good on his campaign promises, and that gets the career politician's panties all bunched up. :up:

[Mr Quatro]

I'm starting to get a little suspicious of this fight between Hillary Clinton and Tulsi Gabbard.

What if it is a stage play, a big gamble to get Gabbard's name out in the open by a washed up politician Hillary Clinton.

Who in a brilliant chess move is putting forth her nomination Tulsi Gabbard by bad mouthing her and pointing to the very same thing that defeated her (the Russian's being pro Trump), but in reality she has to get Gabbard started now in order to defeat Bernie and Warren.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/gabbard-fundraises-off-clinton-attack-i-challenge-her-to-face-me-directly/ar-AAJ2dhB


Rep. Tulsi Gabbard (D-Hawaii) is fundraising off her feud with former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, asking supporters to donate to her presidential campaign and calling on Clinton to "face her directly" in the 2020 Democratic primary.

Meanwhile the race could get even hotter with Bloomberg :yep:

https://www.ibtimes.com/michael-bloomberg-president-former-ny-mayor-might-be-weighing-2020-run-democrat-2845899

In a packed Democratic field, and amid a tight race between former Vice-President Joe Biden and Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren, there are new reports that former New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg may consider a bid for the nomination.

Bloomberg has previously been a Republican and an independent. He later became a Democrat in 2018

[Skybird]

What if it is a stage play, a big gamble to get Gabbard's name out in the open by a washed up politician Hillary Clinton.

Who in a brilliant chess move is putting forth her nomination Tulsi Gabbard by bad mouthing her and pointing to the very same thing that defeated her (the Russian's being pro Trump), but in reality she has to get Gabbard started now in order to defeat Bernie and Warren.
The Russians want Lil' Boy. They can get him most likely if they prevent one strong Democrat candidate forming up behind whom all Democrats and voters can unite. Divide et impera.



Like Farrage in the UK is a threat to Johnson, because he would pick away voters from the Tories. Farrage probably will never become PM, but by this he could prevent Johnson become PM either. Rujssia has an interest, if they want Lil' Boy again, to weaken Biden and Warren in a similiar way.

[Skybird]

Lil' Boy rules that the union gains its 51st federal state: Iraq. Thats the state where the US returning troops from Syria are beeing brought home to.

Lil' Boy also admitted that the deal with Erdoghan was not about protecting anyone from anyone else, or pro or against the Kurds, but about securing the oil in the region. Neither him nor his defence secretary Mark Esperanto explained further for whom, so most likely it was secured for his buddy in Ankara, or some US company that needs it in Normandy.

And while he is in such a nice rush to fulfill his campaign promises and keep bringing the troops home, he sent 3000 navigation councelors into the region to explain returning troops the way home. Or maybe SA becomes the 52nd state of the union - I may have misunderstood something there. A creative way to get untangled from the burdens of the world, I have to give him that. :yeah:

[August]

I may have misunderstood something there.


You've been misunderstanding the US and Americans for over a decade now no it's certainly nothing new.

[tacter]

Sighhhh. We only have to live this most recent nightmare in the US another year... THEN Rinse and Repeat!!!

Politics!!! huurrrrrumph!!!

[Mr Quatro]

Sighhhh. We only have to live this most recent nightmare in the US another year... THEN Rinse and Repeat!!!

Politics!!! huurrrrrumph!!!

Welcome aboard tacter :up:

Rare for the truth to manifest in the US Politics thread :D

[em2nought]

I do not agree with all of her positions but I think she would bring dignity back to the White House, and I'm sick of Trump 24/7.


My mother is the same way, she would rather give up than have to listen to the constant fight. I think that's part of what "they're" counting on. They've been "on" him since day one. We'll go down the toilet if they win. People will be dreaming of Chick-fil-A sandwiches while they eat spoiled cast offs from dumpsters with their grubby hands. :har:

[mapuc]

Sighhhh. We only have to live this most recent nightmare in the US another year... THEN Rinse and Repeat!!!

Politics!!! huurrrrrumph!!!

It would be like buying a lottery coupon and having the feeling the big win will be there....and then there's absolutely nothing.

I would recommend you to embrace yourself in case Trump wins another term in the White House.

Expect the worse and hope for the best.

Markus

[Skybird]

I was crying all evening today. Lil' Boy said that he has lost billions, and that somebody is out to lynch him. A little boy all alone in this cold and harsh and hostile and way too big world. I was so sad, it reminded me of Andersen's fairy tale The Little Match Girl. Sneeeef with me, brothers and sisters, for the life is not fair to him!

[Catfish]

Mark Esperanto will be proud, of who or whatever.

[Skybird]

Maybe this is the tipping point of where self-preservation of Republican senators sets in. First time that a CNN poll outpaces public support for an impeahcment fo the little boy, reaching 50%. Some Repiublicans are facing campaigns, if their voter base supports impeachment, they cannot afford to trade candies with the little box any longer.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/22/politics/cnn-impeachment-poll-trump-ukraine/index.html

Meanwhile the US ambassador to the Ukraine had testified and delivered the little boy a big bag of big problem. Little Boy wanted to twitter, but so far staff has not allowed him. Weeping-alarm! Unfair! Beware stomping feet and thunderous laments getting broadcasted to a place near you soon!

[mapuc]

I heard about this testimony too

What it means in plain American politics I don't know.

Markus

[MaDef]

@ skybird, your derogatory nicknames for the President of the United States has gone from being amusing to being offensive, please stop. We all know you despise Mr Trump.

[Mr Quatro]

@ skybird, your derogatory nicknames for the President of the United States has gone from being amusing to being offensive, please stop. We all know you despise Mr Trump.

:yeah::o:up::yep:

[u crank]

Maybe this is the tipping point of where self-preservation of Republican senators sets in. First time that a CNN poll outpaces public support for an impeahcment fo the little boy, reaching 50%. Some Repiublicans are facing campaigns, if their voter base supports impeachment, they cannot afford to trade candies with the little box any longer.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/22/politics/cnn-impeachment-poll-trump-ukraine/index.html

From that article. Which I assume you read.

As support for impeachment has inched upward, however, Trump's approval ratings overall and for handling major issues have not taken a hit.


Support for impeachment and removal is strongest among Democrats (87% favor it) and stands at 50% among independents. Among Republicans, just 6% say they support impeaching and removing the Republican President, lower than the 14% who said so in a September CNN poll.

The share who say Trump used his office improperly to gain political advantage against a potential 2020 opponent in his interactions with the President of Ukraine stands at 49%, about the same as in the September CNN poll. At the same time, more now say Trump did not use the presidency improperly (43%, up from 39%), as the share who are undecided on the question dipped. That shift was largely driven by a 16-point increase in the share of Republicans who say Trump didn't improperly use the presidency (from 71% to 87%).

Trump's favorability rating has not lost any ground, however, holding at 42% favorable and 56% unfavorable. The President has also seen his approval ratings for handling top issues hold steady or increase in the last month. His approval rating for handling the economy has rebounded from an early September dip: 52% approve on that score, up from 48%. His numbers have held about even on immigration and foreign affairs, while ticking up 4 points on foreign trade.


As is typical with CNN the headline is the only story.

[Skybird]

@ skybird, your derogatory nicknames for the President of the United States has gone from being amusing to being offensive, please stop. We all know you despise Mr Trump.
Paying this lots of respect to a confessing pussygrabber is against my values and my own stadards, so I must reject it. I call you instead to stop being loyal and obedient to this carricature of a wannabe-president who is neither strong or honourbale due to his deeds, decision and attiude, but is floating in office due to the obedience of servile, authority-believing minds like yours.

As I see it, the seat in the oval office is vacant, and the US currently has no president worth to be called that. I will never pay any sorts of respect to this little boy playing big boss.

I mock Merkel. I mock Junckers. I mock Kim Yong Il and I mock Macronman and I mock May and I mock Corbyn and I mock Nazis and I mock Islam. How could I not mock this little boy in the too big White House without contradicting myself?

I reject your request. I speak about him as he deserves. While he calls others much worse things and talks much more malicous bull about them, mind you. Not mentioning his obstruction of law and abuse of powers for his personal gains. Send a request to stop to him. Not to me. I am not the problem here. He is. If he should not be called a little boy, then he must stop behaving like a little boy who did not get his candies.

[Skybird]

Congress Approval Rate below 30% for 10th year in a row. Only 20% of Americans approve.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/06/01/politics/poll-of-the-week-congress-approval-rating/index.html



Ten years old. Like good wine, it became ripe in this time:


https://www.independent.org/publications/article.asp?id=4725

[Bilge_Rat]

@ skybird, your derogatory nicknames for the President of the United States has gone from being amusing to being offensive, please stop. We all know you despise Mr Trump.

just do what I do and put him on your ignore list, all of his posts are irrelevant anyway. He is just spamming this thread at this point IMHO.

[Bilge_Rat]

As is typical with CNN the headline is the only story.

exactly.

[MaDef]

Paying this lots of respect to a confessing pussygrabber is against my values and my own stadards, so I must reject it. I call you instead to stop being loyal and obedient to this carricature of a wannabe-president who is neither strong or honourbale due to his deeds, decision and attiude, but is floating in office due to the obedience of servile, authority-believing minds like yours.

As I see it, the seat in the oval office is vacant, and the US currently has no president worth to be called that. I will never pay any sorts of respect to this little boy playing big boss.

I mock Merkel. I mock Junckers. I mock Kim Yong Il and I mock Macronman and I mock May and I mock Corbyn and I mock Nazis and I mock Islam. How could I not mock this little boy in the too big White House without contradicting myself?

I reject your request. I speak about him as he deserves. While he calls others much worse things and talks much more malicous bull about them, mind you. Not mentioning his obstruction of law and abuse of powers for his personal gains. Send a request to stop to him. Not to me. I am not the problem here. He is. If he should not be called a little boy, then he must stop behaving like a little boy who did not get his candies.Fair enough, If you are as abrasive and caustic in the real world as you are online, then I can only conclude that you are a lonely bitter man trying for relevancy in life.
As a result, I'll consider anything you post about my Country or Government as immaterial and not worthy of response.

[MaDef]

just do what I do and put him on your ignore list, all of his posts are irrelevant anyway. He is just spamming this thread at this point IMHO.
boorish behavior needs to be addressed, or the offender feels emboldened to continue. He was given a chance to amend his behavior and have his posts at least read and considered. He double downed on his attitude and has regulated himself to irrelevancy on any discussions about the United States or It's Government.

[Skybird]

Fair enough, If you are as abrasive and caustic in the real world as you are online, then I can only conclude that you are a lonely bitter man trying for relevancy in life.
As a result, I'll consider anything you post about my Country or Government as immaterial and not worthy of response.


Feel free, I dont care. You are not the authority to define whom or what I must respect and whom or what I may confront. A man is not his country. The individual I personally interact with I do not mistake with the policy and doing of a regime. I ask you not for permission on anything. If you think you must take that personally - your choice, gooy bye.

[August]

I can only conclude that you are a lonely bitter man trying for relevancy in life.


Wow it's like you've met him! :o

[Skybird]

Lets say the number of false friends shrunk dramatically, and the number of real friends stayed low - but ever more trusted and appreciated.

[Onkel Neal]

Let's not get personal, please. I'm serious.

Meanwhile, Gabbi sent me a relevant message today
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=14&v=cGBbaYeEUik



She's like a Hawaiian Sarah Connor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STURQqhF-5c

I agree with Trumpy on this, the establishment Dems are sick people.

[Buddahaid]

boorish behavior needs to be addressed, or the offender feels emboldened to continue. He was given a chance to amend his behavior and have his posts at least read and considered. He double downed on his attitude and has regulated himself to irrelevancy on any discussions about the United States or It's Government.

That sounds like a definition of Trump himself. I would see your point better if that man of infinite wisdom would stop making up the cute demeaning names for his opponents he twitters about. He is a child who would be king but he craps on the floor in his own house and knows no better.

[Skybird]

Republican congressmen no longer accept to play by the rules of law when obeying the little boy's demand to defend him stronger. All German media report on it.

https://edition.cnn.com/politics/live-news/impeachment-inquiry-10-24-2019/index.html

Of course they knew that Republicans also were part of that non-public hearing. Of course they knew that electronic communication tools are not allowedf in room. What they really wanted to acchieve is: the intimidation of witnesses hat could be a problem for the little boy. To support their interests, even the vilant breaking of estalbished laws and rules under the eyes of the ublic hac become acceptable.

During their rise to power, and before the SS was formed, the Nazis formed another unit to disrupt assemblies of political rivals and to intimdiate participants in political gatherings, the SA, wich stands for "Sturmabteilung" (stormtroop). It stormed such assemblies, caused riots, started fights, and did all it could to disrupt such assemblies and to intimdiate people. History starts to show dangerous parallels. The saga of American degeneration of political culture is one chapter richer. The law has been rendered one degree less valid again.

The real tragedy is that the corrosive effects of this will prevail for long time after the little boy has left the white house which has proven to be so incredibly much too big for him.

[u crank]

Republican congressmen no longer accept to play by the rules of law when obeying the little boy's demand to defend him stronger. All German media report on it.

During their rise to power, and before the SS was formed, the Nazis formed another unit to disrupt assemblies of political rivals and to intimdiate participants in political gatherings, the SA, wich stands for "Sturmabteilung" (stormtroop).

So now you are comparing the actions of elected members of Congress with stormtroopers? Priceless. What do you think of secret inquiries being held? Is there an historical precedent there?

But it is not the first time a stunt like this has happened.

The 2016 United States House of Representatives sit-in began on June 22, 2016, when members of the House Democratic Caucus, led by Georgia Representative John Lewis and Massachusetts Representative Katherine Clark, and Illinois Representative Robin Kelly, declared their intention to remain on the floor of the United States House of Representatives until its Republican Speaker, Paul Ryan, allowed votes on gun control legislation in the aftermath of the June 12, 2016 Orlando nightclub shooting.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_House_of_Representatives_sit-in#Aftermath

President Barack Obama tweeted support for Lewis and House Democrats, saying they were "leading on gun violence where we need it most".

Former President Bill Clinton, the husband of presumptive Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton, tweeted in support, "This is leadership." Hillary also tweeted her support.

[Skybird]

So now you are comparing the violation of established rules and laws by Republican followers of the little boy with SA stormtroopers? Priceless.


^ Corrected that for you.


Yes, I compare it, because it is the same kind fo action, and the same violation of laws and rules, and the same intention.


Even worse if there already have been precedences. Whats next? Flying fists in congress? Molotow cocktails against cars and homes of senators? Little Boy has complaine dbitterly about the lackign support form his party. Before the Rpublican sA jumped into the hearing, he urged his folowers in congress to "get tough". Two weeks ago he publicly reasoned about how one would have dealt with "traitors" in the good old times , which was nothing else than reflecting about lynching an unwanted whistleblower. Season is open, that means. Anything goes. Mobster talking. Mobster doing. Mobster being.

Arnold Schwarzenegger recently held an interview in German, saying "Man muß jedes Mal zurückschlagen, wenn er seinen Mund aufmacht. Am besten mit etwas, das ihn bloßstellt. Davon gibt es ja genug." ("You have to hit back every time he opens his mouth. Best done with something that exposes him. There is enough of that.")

Yep.

[u crank]

Yes, I compare it, because it is the same kind fo action, and the same violation of laws and rules, and the same intention.

Ok Skybird, I am going to say this as plainly as I can. Listen carefully and put your prejudices aside. I am not defending President Trump. I don't much care for him. What I do care about is the rule of law and the proper way that government, in this case the US government, carries out its' functions. Yes Trump does things that could be construed as improper. But make no mistake what the Democrat majority under Pelosi and Schiff are currently doing in regards to their 'impeachment inquiry' is unprecedened and despicable. I'm not sure what you know about that but you should do some research. You won't find out about it by watching CNN or any other left wing media sources.

Ask yourself the obvious question..why are these hearings being held in secret? These current witnesses are not whistle blowers. Why is their testimony a secret? Their identities are known. Give me one good reason why the American public shouldn't know what is being said in these hearings. I can't think of one. Can you? It is obvious that it is political machinations. It is an investigation in search of a crime being carried out without due process and accountability. I think that is wrong. What do you think?

[Skybird]

I think mob is what mob does. And the mobster at the top of the staff list called for it.


BBC:



The inquiry is led by a Democrat - Adam Schiff - and being run by the House Intelligence, Oversight and Foreign Affairs committees.
However, more than 40 Republicans are members of those committees, and permitted to take part in the hearings.


Democrats have argued that it is common for the initial stages of a congressional investigation to be conducted behind closed doors, and say private hearings are needed at the start, to stop witnesses from coordinating their testimony.



"The special counsels in the Nixon and Clinton impeachments conducted their investigations in private and we must initially do the same," Mr Schiff wrote in a letter to colleagues.That pretty much nails it.


The inention behind this is clear. Disruption. Pressure is mounting on Lil' Boy, and this is his reaction, carried out by his obedient followers in congress. Disruption. Intimidation of witnesses. Organising and coordinating statements aimed and counteirng what the hearings will deliver in results and conclusions. Or in plain English: disruption.



And yes, I do not withdraw from the comparison to the SA's acitosn agauinst unwanted potlial assemblies in the early years of the regime still rising. Idea and intention back then and now, are the same.



Its a futile effort to seek any kind of agreement here, u_crank, you have chosen your side, and I have chosen where I wish to stand. We will never reach agreement. I have given thjis big olittle boy the usual 100 days of benefit of doubt when he started. And could cut them much shorter for he immediately started to mess things up and it did not take 100 days to realise where the journey was heading for. And since then, it went worse and worse and worse with him, every single week. He is the biggest potlical desaster that has ever hit xour country. Not being the cause but a symptom himself, thoiugh a sympton that feeds back on the cause, he also illustrates the biggest failure of your political system and society.


Edit: P.S.
The whole damn "West" is collapsing, btw. The whole order erected on the fundament of the last couple of centuries, if not the last millenium, right now goes to hell, right before our eyes. Its not just Trump. But he is like a catalysator for the destruction. Thats is no new thought to me. What irritates me so much is that people - are celebrating.

[Bilge_Rat]

So now you are comparing the actions of elected members of Congress with stormtroopers? Priceless.

Number one rule when someone uses the Nazi smear tactic in a political debate: Don't feed the Troll. :yep:

i.e. "trolling": – (verb), as it relates to internet, is the deliberate act, (by a Troll – noun or adjective), of making random unsolicited and/or controversial comments on various internet forums with the intent to provoke an emotional knee jerk reaction from unsuspecting readers to engage in a fight or argument

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Trolling

btw is'nt "Trolling" against forum rules?

[u crank]

"The special counsels in the Nixon and Clinton impeachments conducted their investigations in private and we must initially do the same," Mr Schiff wrote in a letter to colleagues.


I wouldn't take Schiff's word on the sunrise.

The inention behind this is clear. Disruption. Pressure is mounting on Lil' Boy, and this is his reaction, carried out by his obedient followers in congress. Disruption. Intimidation of witnesses. Organising and coordinating statements aimed and counteirng what the hearings will deliver in results and conclusions. Or in plain English: disruption.

Both sides are doing this in one form or another.

And yes, I do not withdraw from the comparison to the SA's acitosn agauinst unwanted potlial assemblies in the early years of the regime still rising. Idea and intention back then and now, are the same.


Then you are confused about the nature of the two parties involved. They are in no way comparable.

Its a futile effort to seek any kind of agreement here, u_crank, you have chosen your side, and I have chosen where I wish to stand. We will never reach agreement.

You can pick whatever side you like. I thought I made it plain that I don't have a side. I am an interested observer. Try to keep that in mind.

Here is a take that ask questions that both sides should come to grips with.

It’s easy to see how personal and national interests were intertwined for both Biden and Trump, and it’s easy to see what their defenses are. Each says his only interest was in protecting U.S. national security. Their critics don’t believe it.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/10/24/the_three_main_questions_about_ukraine_and_impeach ment___141565.html

If Joe and Hunter Biden were not in the picture, it would be perfectly fine for Trump to demand Ukraine reopen its investigation of earlier corruption and possible interference in the 2016 U.S. election. With the Bidens in the picture, however, Trump’s actions raise troubling questions.

Rep. Schiff’s investigation is not designed to answer them. It is designed to build a case against the president, and to do it speedily and secretly. When he has assembled whatever he thinks is enough evidence, he will release a partisan report and hope it gains public support. Republicans will rebut the substance and claim the whole process was a kangaroo court.


Impeachment will be resolved in a few months, the 2020 election in a year. But these larger issues will not be settled nearly so fast, not definitively. The divisions are too deep, the stakes too high. The best advice, to paraphrase Bette Davis, is to buckle your seat belts because it’s going to be a bumpy ride.

[Dowly]

Number one rule when someone uses the Nazi smear tactic in a political debate: Don't feed the Troll. :yep:
Whose rule is that?

[Bilge_Rat]

Whose rule is that?

The rule of normal civilized adults who want to have an actual debate, not the circus that this thread is turning into.

[Dowly]

The rule of normal civilized adults who want to have an actual debate, not the circus that this thread is turning into.
"Normal civilized adults" perhaps would read the comparison and see if it fits instead of sticking to something as irrelevant as it being a nazi comparison.

[Bilge_Rat]

"Normal civilized adults" perhaps would read the comparison and see if it fits instead of sticking to something as irrelevant as it being a nazi comparison.

Does not surprise that you are unable to grasp the concept, as I said it is a rule among "normal civilized adults".

[Skybird]

Lil' Boy and the rules of civilised adults debating, mentioned in one thread. Oh the irony!

Or should I say: oh the projection? Referring to the psychological defence mechanism?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

I am tempted to demand projection being renamed as trumponitis major.

[Mr Quatro]

You know what's blinding most people to President Trump in their views of him as president is not his faults, but the fact that they forget Hillary Clinton did not win the nomination to become POTUS.

I will always be thankful that she did not win ... so glad this thread is not about all of her mistakes. :yep:

[Skybird]

I just read that where other megalomanic tyrants build monuments and palaces and alleys for their own memorial and celebration, Trump tries to immortalize himself in mankind'S memory by building a huge wall between Colorado and Mexico. Now that is a monumental task that deeply impresses me. If he mamages that, it will mean the compoetion of a really monumentally monumental task. And the loss of quite some terrioriy of the United States, but I think that is a small price for such greatness on display.



Meanwhile:


https://s19.directupload.net/images/191024/tfo3ng9b.png (https://www.directupload.net)


Wowh. I love it when little boys playing psychopath are so clear and straight in their language. And even if nobody chuckles, I still laugh out loud and wide.



And later on, Fox' interview with WH speaker Stephanie Grisham on the tweet shows that still nobody does Fox stuff better than Fox. :har: Its not the first masterpiece of agitation and propaganda that these two produce in close collaboration.

[Skybird]

so glad this thread is not about all of her mistakes. :yep:
I have a theory. It is because she is not president right now, as you correctly have noted, and currently is no big problem.

[Dowly]

https://i.imgur.com/misbZLt.jpg

[Onkel Neal]

So now you are comparing the actions of elected members of Congress with stormtroopers? Priceless. What do you think of secret inquiries being held? Is there an historical precedent there?


Exactly. Am I mistaken or are these hearings being done in secret, excluding Republican lawmaker participation?

If that is correct, Skybird's comparison is baseless.

[Skybird]

But her emails




https://s19.directupload.net/images/191024/g8y65rl4.png (https://www.directupload.net)

[Dowly]

Exactly. Am I mistaken or are these hearings being done in secret, excluding Republican lawmaker participation?No, every member of the committee(s) are allowed to be present, including Republicans.


There's nothing 'secret' about it, it's a closed hearing and has happened many many many many many times before.

[Skybird]

Exactly. Am I mistaken or are these hearings being done in secret, excluding Republican lawmaker participation?

If that is correct, Skybird's comparison is baseless.
I quote again:



The inquiry is led by a Democrat - Adam Schiff - and being run by the House Intelligence, Oversight and Foreign Affairs committees.
However, more than 40 Republicans are members of those committees, and permitted to take part in the hearings.

Democrats have argued that it is common for the initial stages of a congressional investigation to be conducted behind closed doors, and say private hearings are needed at the start, to stop witnesses from coordinating their testimony.

"The special counsels in the Nixon and Clinton impeachments conducted their investigations in private and we must initially do the same," Mr Schiff wrote in a letter to colleagues.


Those storming Reps appeared short after the Lil' Boy slammed Republican party for not giving him the support he wanted to see, and called his followers to "getting tough".



The message was heared.

[Onkel Neal]

No, every member of the committee(s) are allowed to be present, including Republicans.


There's nothing 'secret' about it, it's a closed hearing and has happened many many many many many times before.

Ok, I am looking at NPR, and CBS news websites, they are calling this closed hearings and they do not describe Republicans having access.

On the Washington Post it says all Republicans on the three committees involved in the inquiry, intelligence foreign affairs and oversight, are allowed into the hearings. So, that means that there are Republicans in these closed-door hearings, correct?

[eddie]

Yes Neal, there are Republicans on the committees having these meetings. The ones that stormed the meeting yesterday, are ones that are not on the committee.

[Onkel Neal]

Ok, thanks for the confirmation. Sounds like Rush Limbaugh has his facts wrong, he's going on and on about these hearings excluding Republicans.

let's face it, from day one the Democrats have been trying to impeach this president.

On the other hand, he's making it pretty easy. :)

Still, glad Bill Clinton's wife is not president.

[em2nought]

I miss the warpaint, feathers, and tomahawks. Armani is overrated. :D

https://cdn.britannica.com/75/96175-004-CC263826.jpg

[Buddahaid]

Yeah, too bad there nothing to relate to this thread in it.

[Skybird]

Expensive feet stomping frim Washington! Pentgaon snubs Amazon for building its Jedi cloud project, and gives the contract to Microsoft, what surprises many experts , becasue it was assumed Amazon would be the bettern choice since it has a clear lead over Microsoft in most of the techcnological fields associated with this project, and according to some observers offered the cheaper deal as well. When it comes to cloud comuting and tehcnology, not Microsoft, but Amazon and Google are the heavyweights in the ring, but Google doe snot sign in to weapons deals anymore. But Amazon, that is Bezos, and Bezos has positioned himself himself against the kid in the White House, and owns the Washington Post, and so it is a very understandable suspicion that not technically or economically relevant reasons led to the decision, but personal desires for revenge. This latest round of stomping feet in the white house costs the Americna taxt payer needlessly additonal hundreds of millions, for the most oikely inferior product, jst so to please one signle precious hurt ego. The worse sokutoon for the more money. Because of personal hostility and revenge. All this paid for by the American tax payers. Hooray!



Just days ago there was a decision made public that Little Cesar has ruled that government and public services shall cancel all abonements for the New York Times and Washington Post.


Isnt it heart-warming to see little kids playing? Cute! This one child makes a whole nation and national economy his personal pet toy.

[August]

The Democrats Great White Hope is starting not to look so great.



Joe Biden privately contacted the Department of Homeland Security and the Department of Justice when he was a senior and influential U.S. senator to discuss issues that his son Hunter’s firm was being paid to lobby on, according to government records.
On at least two occasions, Biden contacted federal departments to discuss issues related to Hunter’s firm’s lobbying clients, according to records reviewed by the Washington Examiner.
Biden’s behind-the-scenes outreach illustrates how his Senate work overlapped with his son’s business interests. Biden has faced scrutiny for taking actions that were perceived to benefit his son’s work, including calling for the firing of a Ukrainian prosecutor and backing policies that helped the Delaware-based credit card industry while Hunter was working for MBNA, which is headquartered in the state.
Government records show that Biden, who has always insisted he knows nothing about his son's business activities, helped Hunter's work with strategic and highly specific interventions that could have benefited his son to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars.



https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/biden-outreach-to-dhs-and-doj-overlapped-with-work-by-son-hunters-lobbying-firm

[Rockstar]

Ummm, Oracle and IBM alleged Amazon executives and the Pentagon have been overly cozy. Both challenged the integrity of the government's bidding process in a court. So I wonder, do you think Trumps name was mentioned in court? I mean really, who knew Trump held so much sway over IBM and Oracle. I wonder how he got them to challenge the Pentagons decision? Think maybe the Russians had something to do with it? I bet 'V' has a treasure trove of facts, law and research to back up any claim that Trump did it. :D

[Catfish]

Found that interesting. Not because of Snowden or 9/11, but how we accept a surveillance state (all the west, not only the US) without really speaking up against it.

"Since 2013 the real government whistleblower, Edward Snowden, has been in political asylum in Russia, where he continues to write books and tell his story of how as an employee of the NSA he discovered that the government was breaking the law in constructing a massive surveillance state."


“It says so much about the bureaucratic character of how the government works. The people who rise to the top of these governments. It’s about risk management for them. It’s about never being criticized for something…

Everybody wants to believe in conspiracy theories because it helps life make sense. It helps us believe that somebody is in control… that somebody is calling the shots, that these things all happen for a reason.

There are real conspiracies… but when you look back at the 9/11 report and when you look back at the history of what actually happened, what we can prove. Not on what we can speculate on, but what are at least are the commonly agreed facts… it’s very clear to me, as someone who worked in the intelligence community… that these attacks could have been prevented.” ~Edward Snowden

Snowden is implying that 9/11 was essentially allowed to happen so that the mass surveillance state, which is insanely profitable to certain people, could be created. And it has since been created.

https://themindunleashed.com/2019/10/us-government-could-have-prevented-9-11-edward-snowden-tells-joe-rogan.html

[Skybird]

I tend to agree with that. The deep state and deep intelligence fetishists certai8nly tremedously benefitted form 9/11, so did Bush jr, for whom the timing was perfect - his reputation and presidency laid in smoking ruins, and then he had the cause on which to held speeches and appeal to emotions and so regain sympathy points. Plus the side-effect of the Iraq war being linked to Al Quaeda - they might not have found nukes of which they said they knew Saddam ahd them and wherew he ahd themn, but even without these nukes they now could say that at least they ounbished Iraq for having allied wiht Al Quaeda (which they had't).

The pattern is not new, nor origoinal. Health arguments and environmental arguments are also massively abused for the pushing of political agendas of widening state paternalism and finaicoal redistributuion schemes. The fight against money laundering and organised crime is the (foul) excuse for driving the war against cash money. And so forth.

Politics lie. Vote, and you legitimise liars.


I have read the German edition of Snowden's book, btw, but I think I maybe already posted that (or not?). Recommended reading, and the writing has a good flow.

[Onkel Neal]

Found that interesting. Not because of Snowden or 9/11, but how we accept a surveillance state (all the west, not only the US) without really speaking up against it.

"Since 2013 the real government whistleblower, Edward Snowden, has been in political asylum in Russia, where he continues to write books and tell his story of how as an employee of the NSA he discovered that the government was breaking the law in constructing a massive surveillance state."


“It says so much about the bureaucratic character of how the government works. The people who rise to the top of these governments. It’s about risk management for them. It’s about never being criticized for something…

Everybody wants to believe in conspiracy theories because it helps life make sense. It helps us believe that somebody is in control… that somebody is calling the shots, that these things all happen for a reason.

There are real conspiracies… but when you look back at the 9/11 report and when you look back at the history of what actually happened, what we can prove. Not on what we can speculate on, but what are at least are the commonly agreed facts… it’s very clear to me, as someone who worked in the intelligence community… that these attacks could have been prevented.” ~Edward Snowden

Snowden is implying that 9/11 was essentially allowed to happen so that the mass surveillance state, which is insanely profitable to certain people, could be created. And it has since been created.

https://themindunleashed.com/2019/10/us-government-could-have-prevented-9-11-edward-snowden-tells-joe-rogan.html


If you find that believable, then the Deep State theory should make perfect sense, too.

[Catfish]

The deep state has become a fashion theme to talk about, but the original has nothing to do with politically "left" ideas, on the contrary.
It is about people who have the power, and despite lies and propaganda that is and never has been the politically left.

[Rockstar]

The deep state has become a fashion theme to talk about, but the original has nothing to do with politically "left" ideas, on the contrary.
It is about people who have the power, and despite lies and propaganda that is and never has been the politically left.

So very true IMHO, I think to a certain extent we've allowed ourselves to be willing duped into fighting amongst ourselves by those people in power.

[u crank]

The deep state has become a fashion theme to talk about, but the original has nothing to do with politically "left" ideas, on the contrary.
It is about people who have the power, and despite lies and propaganda that is and never has been the politically left.

Like the Neocon war lobby, the deep state has no political allegiance.

[August]

The deep state has become a fashion theme to talk about, but the original has nothing to do with politically "left" ideas, on the contrary.
It is about people who have the power, and despite lies and propaganda that is and never has been the politically left.


Well yes and no.

The so called deep state tends to support the lefts political ideas because these often entail an expansion of governmental power, not because they are true believers. They are also quite happy to support the right when they promote ideas that entail the same thing (drug wars for example).

[Catfish]

Like the Neocon war lobby, the deep state has no political allegiance.
Well i do agree.

Well yes and no.

The so called deep state tends to support the lefts political ideas because these often entail an expansion of governmental power, not because they are true believers. They are also quite happy to support the right when they promote ideas that entail the same thing (drug wars for example).
An expansion of political power is not reserved for "the left", indeed the left (at least in Europe) usually has more regard for freedom of the individual, sometimes recently to a ridiculous and dangerous extent.

Here, as far as i can see back in time, the right was of course against the soviet union, so they did all politically regarding fighting evil communism, and the (at least european) "deep state" with its NATO-involved Operation Gladio was for once heading for the same goal.
The planning and execution along with "tests" (read real terror attacks and assassinations) was not initiated or ordered by the various governments, but rather a kind of joint venture of the secret services, or better certain branches of the latter.

What Trump and others talk about the "deep state" is a cloudy felt resistance against their own righteous way to handle things, however that resistance is not some "deep state" conspiracy, but rather common sense of some reasonable people who Trump has accidentally not yet removed from their position.

[Skybird]

The term deep state is a tricky one to use.

Originally is stems from Turkey and political conditions there at that time.

In Europe it usually is used to refer to a state increasing its power, control and influence beyond the perception focus and by bypassing the legitimation of laws, elections and constitiutions: deep state aims at bypassing checks and balances. It can also mean the friction institutions interl work flows produce - and by that slowing down decisions and intentions of politics: deep state as a quagmire slowing things down the deepr you sink into it. .

In America, the term seem to be used in at least two different meanings, a bit derailed like the term "liberal", which originally referred to "liberty" and not to "being politically left". The one meaning of deep state is parrallel to the paragraph above, is somehow in the succession of Eisenhower'S wrnring of the industrial-military complex eroding state and ursupating, corrupting power and control. But since some years, already before Little Cesar, Republicans use to brandmark opposition to conservative opinions in general as a resistence of the political and state-institutional system to Republican demands to form the country according to their will and ideas. Little Cesar now sto to hook up there and demonises resistence and opposition to himself as opposition projected by "deep state" against him. A minister does not obey? Deep state. A document is leaked? Deep state. His own attempts to bypass rules or to block release of unredacted documents or evidence beign ov erruled? Deep state. The secretary in the anteroom bringing the coffee in too cold to annoy him? Deep state.



Or as Catfish has put it more elegantly:

What Trump and others talk about the "deep state" is a cloudy felt resistance against their own righteous way to handle things, however that resistance is not some "deep state" conspiracy, but rather common sense of some reasonable people who Trump has accidentally not yet removed from their position.

The term is not agreed on in what it really means and covers. Everyone'S understanding seems to more or less vary a bit. Best is, I think, not to use it. Many use it, but everybody may mean something more or less different by it. Thus it is not so helpful to use it.

[u crank]

The term deep state is a tricky one to use.

The term 'deep state' has conspiracy theory connotations that allows some people take it less than seriously. The correct term is the administrative state. In the US government this is a vast number of people who have not been elected. They are appointed or hired by the current administration or are holdovers from previous administrations.


What Trump and others talk about the "deep state" is a cloudy felt resistance against their own righteous way to handle things, however that resistance is not some "deep state" conspiracy, but rather common sense of some reasonable people who Trump has accidentally not yet removed from their position.

That is a relative opinion by these people. They were not hired or appointed to make policy. Their job is to carry out the policies of the current administration. If they refuse or try to subvert that policy they are subverting the will of the electorate. If they feel strongly about their 'reasonable' opinions they should resign their cushy government jobs and run for office or get a job in the media. These people, the '#resistance' are why people call it the deep state.

[Skybird]

Quoting Stephanie Grisham:


"I worked with John Kelly, and he was totally unequipped to handle the genius of our great President."



Well. :har: I what we see is the "genius of a great president", than fear the day you see a mere average one.



I think we see somethign different. Sectarian cult. Wagon fort mentality.

[mapuc]

This night I saw something which made me sad.

It looks like the American's, some of them and a whole lot others from outside USA are more eager to impeach Trump for what he is and for how he behave.
Than what he may have done wrong.

The reason to my sadness and this almost convincing

In MLB game 5 a group of people sad behind first row of spectators and they had a banner with text

Veterans for Impeachment

Markus

[August]

That is a relative opinion by these people. They were not hired or appointed to make policy. Their job is to carry out the policies of the current administration. If they refuse or try to subvert that policy they are subverting the will of the electorate. If they feel strongly about their 'reasonable' opinions they should resign their cushy government jobs and run for office or get a job in the media. These people, the '#resistance' are why people call it the deep state.


Skybird and Catfish prefer their own definitions for deep state because you know Trump! :03:

[Buddahaid]

I just don't know how you can support such a proven compulsive liar.

[Mr Quatro]

They all ie ... just some better than others.

Good grief Trump is in the spot light all of the time ... he gets judged all of the time.

Most people that vote are too busy for this crap ... it boils done to what we know or what they promise.

The left wing promises are ridiculous ... Someone should string them all together like Student loans repaid, free college tuition, back pay for transsexuals and even children of negro slaves, remove all AR-15's from public use, ban all assault rifles, health care for all, 66 trillion dollar health care plans from a country that only produces 3 trillion dollars a year in revenue, raise taxes on the companies that are hiring people, raise middle income tax to pay for the poor.

Yep! Someone should make a list of what the left wing is for vs what the right wing has done. :yep:

[eddie]

Are they coming to take your punk little guns from you again,LOL Thought Obama did that already! Poor right wingers, everyone is picking on Trump! GOOD!! That dork deserves every bit of it and more!

[Mr Quatro]

If you forgive Trump for lying and being strange you get what you vote for, but if you don't forgive Trump you get what the democrats want. :o

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/the-democratic-plan-for-a-42-national-sales-tax-202549219.html

Medicare for All would be so expensive that if you taxed top earners at 100%—that’s right, if you took all the income of couples earning more than $408,000 per year—you’d still fall far short. And everybody getting taxed at 100% would obviously stop working.

Okay, that won’t do it. So what will? CRFB outlined a variety of options. A 42% national sales tax (known as a valued-added tax) would generate about $3 trillion in revenue. But it would destroy the consumer spending that’s the backbone of the U.S. economy. A tax of that magnitude would be like 42% inflation, wrecking consumer budgets and the many companies that depend on them, from Walmart and Amazon to your local car dealer.

Other options include a 32% payroll tax split between employers and workers or a 25% income surtax on everybody. Or, the government could cut 80% of spending on everything but health care, which would include highways, airports and the Pentagon. Or here’s a good one: Just borrow the money and quadruple Washington’s annual deficits.

[Buddahaid]

Not supporting the greatest liar of all time doesn't automatically mean supporting ridiculous democratic ideals. Trump lies even when there is no twisted advantage in doing so. He simply talks out of his tailpipe all the time.

[Onkel Neal]

I just don't know how you can support such a proven compulsive liar.

Honestly, they all lie. Elizabeth Warren, misrepresented herself as part native American to get ahead in the academic world. Yet liberals look the other way.

I don't think most conservative "support" Trump, but they have to choose between the lesser of two evils. And you know how people get when they are attacked and persecuted, they push back.

I did not vote for Trump, but when I saw the debate where they asked 15 Dems who would support free healthcare to illegal immigrants and they all raised their hands... viva Trump!

Trump lies even when there is no twisted advantage in doing so. He simply talks out of his tailpipe all the time.

So true! Down here we say he's fulla sh... well, you know. Big talking idiot, but it's better than a smooth talking idiot.

[August]

I just don't know how you can support such a proven compulsive liar.


And I don't know how you could support a bunch of elitist jerks who try to turn our country into a socialist authoritarian cesspool every time they get into power. Thing is Budda saying that Trump lies is like saying Trump likes to wear ties. Every politician is a liar, every damned one of them, and the professional politicians are the worst of the lot. Tell me I am wrong. Trump may talk a lot of "crap" but he actively works at fulfilling his campaign promises and he isn't owned by people like George Soros and a bunch of commie political action groups.

So I'll take a Trump lie about crowd sizes at the inaugural over Obamas promise that I can keep my health care plan and I'll take a Trump lie over the potential track of a Hurricane over a Democrat promise that they aren't going to try and take my guns.


The term 'deep state' has conspiracy theory connotations that allows some people take it less than seriously. The correct term is the administrative state. In the US government this is a vast number of people who have not been elected. They are appointed or hired by the current administration or are holdovers from previous administrations.


Or to an earlier generation The Establishment.

[Buddahaid]

Why do people just assume you support the antitrump if you don't like Trump? You mean to tell me that all other politicians save for Trump are elitist jerks regardless of party affiliation?

[MaDef]

Not supporting the greatest liar of all time doesn't automatically mean supporting ridiculous democratic ideals. Trump lies even when there is no twisted advantage in doing so. He simply talks out of his tailpipe all the time.
Buddy, If you take anything coming out of any politician's mouth at face value, you've got problems, they all lie and/or stretch the truth on a daily basis.

[Skybird]

Buddy, If you take anything coming out of any politician's mouth at face value, you've got problems, they all lie and/or stretch the truth on a daily basis.
True. Yet they vary by the reach of the damages they do. Lil Cesars effect will live on for many years after he has left. He has damaged the system and order itself, and i absolutely doubt that the us will ever really recover from that. its like a longlasting radiological intoxication. In american political landscape, the Geigers will keep on ticking like crazy for decades.

[u crank]

I just don't know how you can support such a proven compulsive liar.

True. Yet they vary by the reach of the damages they do.

Call me a realist but I think the reason is pretty obvious. Political power. People have always overlooked the flaws in their politicians to get and retain political power. To believe that only one side does this is niave.

It is certainly not a game for idealists.

[em2nought]

Trump is Barnum & Bailey Circus. I'll take a President pronouncing my country as the greatest show on earth instead of offering apologies for it everywhere he goes. In regards to what he's actually "done" so far post Obama, if Trump is wrong, I don't want to be right. :03:


Trumps's also a General Grant, he fights. We don't need another General McClellan. Maybe some of his punches are way off, but he's still throwing them, and he lands a good one quite often.

[Skybird]

Jill Lepore is an American historian and teaches Amerian history at Harvard. There is currently an interview in German due to a book of her now being published in German. In it, she said this passage, about Nixon and Trump.

Question:
Richard Nixon also faced, as Trump presumably now, an impeachment trial. Are there similarities between the two?


Answer:
Not really. Nixon was extremely clever. And he knew foreign policy well. When the Watergate investigations began in 1974, the Republicans claimed that many US presidents had done bad things, with Nixon just beign found out through tape recordings. The Democrats replied: we can find out. As a result, in the summer of 1974, many historians sat down and made a list of US presidents guilty of premeditated misconduct. The result was a fascinating investigation. For my book, I called all of the surviving historians and asked them how they see it, while Trump maybe is about to be charged and Nixon was charged. That was before the revelations in the Ukraine affair. Everyone laughed when I asked that. The comparison with Nixon is idiotic. Nixon had a sense of justice, even the moment he broke the law. His resignation was a consequence of his awareness that democracy works by law and Americans accept their laws.

https://www.fr.de/kultur/donald-trump-richard-nixen-vergleich-idiotisch-nixon-hatte-rechtsbewusstsein-13175282.html


Thats part fo the problem. Little Zero is so full of himself that their is no space left in him for anything as porfane like what is just and not just, right and wrong. He has no sense of justice. And thus will never have a sense for guilt or responsiblity.

[August]

Why do people just assume you support the antitrump if you don't like Trump? You mean to tell me that all other politicians save for Trump are elitist jerks regardless of party affiliation?


All the ones currently running for president yes, especially the leaders. There may be some obscure third party candidate that I am not familiar with.
Now Rand Paul would be one example of a non elitist politician I suppose but he isn't running.

[Onkel Neal]

Why do people just assume you support the antitrump if you don't like Trump? You mean to tell me that all other politicians save for Trump are elitist jerks regardless of party affiliation?

You guys are way more politically savy than me, what's worst things Trump has done/said?

What's the worst things Elizabeth Warren has done/said?

How about Tulsi Gabbard? Are there big undeniable skeletons in her closet?

I mean, we gotta vote for someone. Here are the people I absolutely cannot vote for:


Anyone named Bush (two's enough)
Anyone named Clinton (one's enough!)
Pocahontas Warren (her PC BS hypocrisy stinks to high heaven)
Bernie Sanders (seriously, are we that far gone as a nation?)
Joe Biden (ugh)
that mayor of a small town
the nut who wants to give everyone $1000 a month (that's all 1/2 the country needs to forgo honest employment)
Vladimir Putin (he's already the dictator of Russia)
Donald Trump (unless one of the above is running against him)

Anyone have Joe Leiberman's phone number? or Pat Buchanan?

.
.

[ikalugin]

Tulsi seems like the lesser evil for the US public.

[Mr Quatro]

Tulsi seems like the lesser evil for the US public.

Aren't you guys just suppose to stick to FB :D

[MaDef]

Tulsi seems like the lesser evil for the US public.
According to Clinton She's a Russian asset alongside Mr. Trump.

[ikalugin]

Aren't you guys just suppose to stick to FB :D
FB?
According to Clinton She's a Russian asset alongside Mr. Trump.
I think this is a product of internal DNC infighting, remember how Clinton got Bernie purged in 2016 and how (apparently?) Tulsi had none of it?

[Mr Quatro]

Hillary Clinton, former Secretary of State to Obama, still has secrets that will come out sooner or later with or without Russian interference.

Almost down to one year till the voting, uh?

rename this the circus thread ...
Why don't all of those highly paid corporate CEO's run for POTUS?

I think I already know. :yep:

[Buddahaid]

Gawd please tell me, why? Is it maybe that it can't be run like a business by design? You know, checks and balances, n sh**!

[August]

According to Clinton She's a Russian asset alongside Mr. Trump.


So if I read this right apparently all the Russians have to do to sink an American politicans candidacy is to have some of their bots show support for one or more of their positions. The victim doesn't need to want the support, may not even be aware that it is happening, but if played right it seems to be quite effective.

[Buddahaid]

Welcome to the world of online reputations. There was an episode of The Orville that touched on this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=81&v=jHuy4hswDTE

[Onkel Neal]

Aren't you guys just suppose to stick to FB :D

Lol, post of the year material.:haha:

[ikalugin]

Lol, post of the year material.:haha:
I am confused and concerned :(

[Onkel Neal]

There's a big deal here in the States about "the Russians controlling our minds through Facebook".

[MaDef]

So if I read this right apparently all the Russians have to do to sink an American politicans candidacy is to have some of their bots show support for one or more of their positions. The victim doesn't need to want the support, may not even be aware that it is happening, but if played right it seems to be quite effective.Your reading too much into it, All any politician has to do to be labeled a Russian asset, is to run afoul of Mrs. Clinton or her friends in the DNC.

[Onkel Neal]

Very true! Clinton supporters can't figure that out for themselves.

[Skybird]

Twitter just made an interesting decision - that FB previously refused to make.

[Onkel Neal]

Yeah? What was that?

[Buddahaid]

No political advertising starting November 22nd.

[em2nought]

There's a big deal here in the States about "the Russians controlling our minds through Facebook".


That's a Fairy Tale, but Starforce ruining PC gaming "was" the Russians. :har:

[Dowly]

That's a Fairy Tale
Even the Republican-led Senate Intelligence Committee came to the conclusion earlier this month that Russia targeted voters via social media.

[Onkel Neal]

(That's cuz the Republicans are secretly Russians, comrade)

[Mr Quatro]

Go ahead vote the democrats into office or even stay at home and not vote :hmmm:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-RYRMtaCTrsM/U3u71inM5YI/AAAAAAAACWo/A_ofxPRb9bA/s1600/chicken.jpg

[em2nought]

the Republican-led Senate Intelligence Committee


Is that like military intelligence? There must be a joke in here someplace. It seems to me our government has been occupied by a whole bunch of empty suits who had an agreement amongst themselves to not do a whole hell of a lot for the American people for quite a while now until "something" went and upset the apple cart. :hmmm: I don't think it's the Russians who've put this idea in my head. lol



I supposed by tampering with facebook Russia could somehow be given MORE of our uranium? :har: Meanwhile nobody says a word against it.


The Globalists are "this" close to winning.

[Buddahaid]

And the isolationists always lead us into a war. Surely there is a land of Oz in the middle somewhere.

[August]

And the isolationists always lead us into a war.


Care to name a few of these isolationist led wars? Because as far as I can tell not a single one of the Presidents in office during the start of any of our foreign wars (The Spanish American war, WW1, WW2, Vietnam and up to today) could remotely be considered an isolationist.

[MaDef]

That's a Fairy Tale, but Starforce ruining PC gaming "was" the Russians. :har:

I had an o'clocked custom gaming rig when that crap came out, it played havoc with my system.

[Buddahaid]

Care to name a few of these isolationist led wars? Because as far as I can tell not a single one of the Presidents in office during the start of any of our foreign wars (The Spanish American war, WW1, WW2, Vietnam and up to today) could remotely be considered an isolationist.

Doesn't take much searching.
https://www.thoughtco.com/the-evolution-of-american-isolationism-4123832

"The 20th Century: The End of US Isolationism
World War I (1914 to 1919)

Though actual battle never touched her shores, America’s participation in World War I marked the nation’s first departure from its historic isolationist policy.

During the conflict, the United States entered into binding alliances with the United Kingdom, France, Russia, Italy, Belgium, and Serbia to oppose the Central Powers of Austria-Hungary, Germany, Bulgaria, and the Ottoman Empire.

However, after the war, the United States returned to its isolationist roots by immediately ending all of its war-related European commitments. Against the recommendation of President Woodrow Wilson, the U.S. Senate rejected the war-ending Treaty of Versailles, because it would have required the U.S. to join the League of Nations.

As America struggled through the Great Depression from 1929 to 1941, the nation’s foreign affairs took a back seat to economic survival. To protect U.S. manufacturers from foreign competition, the government imposed high tariffs on imported goods.

World War I also brought an end to America’s historically open attitude toward immigration. Between the pre-war years of 1900 and 1920, the nation had admitted over 14.5 million immigrants. After the passage of the Immigration Act of 1917, fewer than 150,000 new immigrants had been allowed to enter the U.S. by 1929. The law restricted the immigration of “undesirables” from other countries, including “idiots, imbeciles, epileptics, alcoholics, poor, criminals, beggars, any person suffering attacks of insanity…”

World War II (1939 to 1945)

While avoiding the conflict until 1941, World War II marked a turning point for American isolationism. As Germany and Italy swept through Europe and North Africa, and Japan began taking over Eastern Asia, many Americans started to fear that the Axis powers might invade the Western Hemisphere next. By the end of 1940, American public opinion had started to shift in favor of using U.S. military forces to help defeat the Axis.

Still, nearly one million Americans supported the America First Committee, organized in 1940 to oppose the nation’s involvement in the war. Despite pressure from isolationists, President Franklin D. Roosevelt proceeded with his administration’s plans to assist the nations targeted by the Axis in ways not requiring direct military intervention.

Even in the face of Axis successes, a majority of Americans continued to oppose actual U.S. military intervention. That all changed on the morning of December 7, 1941, when naval forces of Japan launched a sneak attack on the U.S. naval base at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. On December 8, 1941, America declared war on Japan. Two days later, the America First Committee disbanded.

After World War II, the United States helped establish and became a charter member of the United Nations in October 1945. At the same time, the emerging threat posed by Russia under Joseph Stalin and the specter of communism that would soon result in the Cold War effectively lowered the curtain on the golden age of American isolationism."

[August]

Doesn't take much searching.
https://www.thoughtco.com/the-evolution-of-american-isolationism-4123832


Did you read the article you posted? It doesn't say that isolationists led us into any wars as you claimed. The opposite in fact.

[Mr Quatro]

No POTUS here uh?


https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/03/amid-drug-price-increases-pfizer-ceo-gets-61-pay-raise-to-27-9-million/?fbclid=IwAR3LBVqAWpWP7fWRkGFO_uTimyDHKUeWM1y-h-zvlJ-Gzde37NPDoKpBOgk

Pfizer CEO gets 61% pay raise—to $27.9 million—as drug prices continue to climb.
In a recent three-week span, the company hiked 116 drug prices as much as 9.46 percent.

[Bilge_Rat]

the whistleblower at the centre of the impeachment is Eric Ciaramella..

...according to RealClearInvestigations:

https://www.realclearinvestigations.com/articles/2019/10/30/whistleblower_exposed_close_to_biden_brennan_dnc_o ppo_researcher_120996.html

apparently his identity has been an open secret for some time in Washington.

if it is him, he is nothing more than a Democratic operative and this is clearly a political hatchet job. No wonder the Dems want to keep his name a secret.

Federal documents reveal that the 33-year-old Ciaramella, a registered Democrat held over from the Obama White House, previously worked with former Vice President Joe Biden and former CIA Director John Brennan, a vocal critic of Trump who helped initiate the Russia “collusion” investigation of the Trump campaign during the 2016 election.

And Ciaramella worked with a Democratic National Committee operative who dug up dirt on the Trump campaign during the 2016 election, inviting her into the White House for meetings, former White House colleagues said. The operative, Alexandra Chalupa, a Ukrainian-American who supported Hillary Clinton, led an effort to link the Republican campaign to the Russian government. “He knows her. He had her in the White House,” said one former co-worker, who requested anonymity to discuss the sensitive matter.

Former White House officials said Ciaramella worked on Ukrainian policy issues for Biden in 2015 and 2016, when the vice president was President Obama's "point man" for Ukraine. A Yale graduate, Ciaramella is said to speak Russian and Ukrainian, as well as Arabic. He had been assigned to the NSC by Brennan.

He was held over into the Trump administration, and headed the Ukraine desk at the NSC, eventually transitioning into the West Wing, until June 2017.

“He was moved over to the front office” to temporarily fill a vacancy, said a former White House official, where he “saw everything, read everything.”

The official added that it soon became clear among NSC staff that Ciaramella opposed the new Republican president’s foreign policies. “My recollection of Eric is that he was very smart and very passionate, particularly about Ukraine and Russia. That was his thing – Ukraine,” he said. “He didn’t exactly hide his passion with respect to what he thought was the right thing to do with Ukraine and Russia, and his views were at odds with the president’s policies.”

[Catfish]

"Ian Read, chairman and CEO of Pfizer Inc. spoke with President Trump last July about pausing drug price hikes. Pfizer now plans to increase prices of 41 of its drugs later this month."
It seems the talks were a beautiful success, according to Trump.

[August]

It seems the talks were a beautiful success, according to Trump.


pause

/pôz/

verb: pause; 3rd person present: pauses; past tense: paused; past participle: paused; gerund or present participle: pausing



interrupt action or speech briefly.
"she paused, at a loss for words"

noun: pause; plural noun: pauses

a temporary stop in action or speech.
"she dropped me outside during a brief pause in the rain"

[vienna]

There is an old axiom in law: ignorance of the law is no excuse...

Ignorance of the content of a law is not a valid defense : fair enough...


How about this for a defense: a person cannot be guilty of a crime because they are too stupid to fully commit the crime?...

Sounds like a stupid argument to defend a stupid person, but, hey, the Wall Street Journal has floated that idea as a defense of Trump's Ukraine debacle:


Intriguingly, Mr. Taylor says in his statement that many people in the Administration opposed the Giuliani effort, including some in senior positions at the White House. This matters because it may turn out that while Mr. Trump wanted a quid-pro-quo policy ultimatum toward Ukraine, he was too inept to execute it. Impeachment for incompetence would disqualify most of the government, and most Presidents at some point or another in office.Schiff’s Secret Bombshells --

https://www.wsj.com/articles/schiffs-secret-bombshells-11571872974


I know a lot of the forum members may not be able to get access to the WSJ site and I looked around for any other sites that may have republished the op-ed piece, but, a s yet, I have not found one, with full text, that does not link back to the WSJ; if anyone can find an easily accessible posting of the WSJ piece, it would be appreciated if a link would be posted. I am posting this link to the Law & Crime analysis of the op-ed piece since it quotes the relevant portions of the article; it also offers an analysis of this rather bizarre and novel legal stretch the minions and Trumpettes are seemingly trying to foist off as actual legal standing:


WSJ Editorial Board Argued Trump Shouldn’t Be Impeached for Being ‘Inept,’ and It Didn’t Go Well --

https://lawandcrime.com/opinion/wsj-editorial-board-argued-trump-shouldnt-be-impeached-for-being-inept-and-it-didnt-go-well/


Trump, never one to let a slight of his much self-vaunted "genius" go unanswered, has been irked by the WSJ piece and has been claiming he is smart enough to commit a crime such as the quid pro quo; Trump just keeps putting his foot in his mouth; I do believe by now, he is nibbling around his inner thigh...


Trump Wants You to Know He’s Smart and Capable Enough to ‘Do Quid Pro Quo’ --

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-wants-you-to-know-hes-smart-enough-to-do-quid-pro-quo


A few months back, I was looking into anther matter and I came across this rather interesting document prepared by Covington & Burling LLP, a law firm that handles matters related to the government for its clients; the document is an analysis of the operations and the rules governing those operations by various Congressional committees; I found it enlightening as a means of separating the wheat from the media and party spins on the actual functions of Congressional Committees:


Congressional Investigations and the Rules of the 116th Congress --

https://www.cov.com/-/media/files/corporate/publications/2019/04/congressional_investigations_and_the_rules_of_the_ 116th_congress.pdf


I also found this document, recently; it was prepared by the Congressional Research Service, a function of the Library of Congress, that works exclusively for Congress. This report was prepared in 1999 and, as far as I have been able to ascertain, it has not been superseded. For those of you who, like myself, do do the 'homework', who don't invoke the "TLDR" school of research, who don't parrot th utterances talking heads of either party, who value fact over 'drive-by' dribble and who like to backup what they contend with actual research, you may find this annotated legal analysis of the powers and processes of depositions such as have been recently held by the three joint House committees a clarification of what has been clouded over by spin:


Staff Depositions in Congressional Investigations --

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/95-949.pdf


Basically, the above report is what the House has been using as part of its guidelines regarding hearings and depositions; straight fact, no filter. It should also be noted that the GOP's constant snowflake bitching and whining about the joint impeachment depositions is the GOP, the Trump minions, and the Trumpettes filling their pampers over rules put in place in 2015 by...



... ...


...the then GOP controlled House leadership. That's right: the GOP is kvetching about a system them set in place themselves. And why did they put such rules in place? Because they were rigging the rules in hopes of easing their own inquiries into the Obama Administration and, if a DEM had won in 2016, any future inquiries into whichever DEM was in the White House. Now, they've lost, in a very big loss, their control of the House and they're 'cleverness' has come back to bite them...


It is classic: make the rule, live by the rule, break the rule, die by the rule...








<O>

[Rockstar]

Frankly, if that's all the WSJ has to offer then who needs it?



So far, just like the Mueller investigation all there has been is accusations and lawless media opinion and drama. Absolutely no charges based on FACTUAL evidence has been presented by the House, let alone an impeachment vote. Even if in the course of the investigation by the House he is impeached. In order that he be removed from office, the Senate is required to hold a trial based on the articles of impeachment sent to them by the House. If found guilty, I can guarantee there will a appeals to higher courts.



We are far from anything lawful going on.



My only wishful thinking is that there would be a call for civility. Right now our leaders are behaving more like those found vying for power in a third world banana republics.

[Mr Quatro]

The crime committed was asking for something that did not happen, seems like a good excuse for the Senate to forgive the Democrats rush to dump Trump knowing that they can't win in November 2020. :hmmm:

[Rockstar]

Media sensationalism, accusations, fluff and drama. Constantly hammering away at the human psyche with the idea the public will tire of it and vote differently just to make it stop.


Similar tactic used with Brexit IMO.

[Buddahaid]

It's a tactic that has been in use for some time and it doesn't matter who's in power. I'd say it's a tactic that is as old as all forms of communication.

[Skybird]

A quick glance at this list shows in one second why Little Cesar will win the next elections if he does not get impeached.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/01/us/politics/iowa-poll-warren-biden.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage


https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRSXF_ROvoMOOCvOk4PELhQCQWEfKgwT v8djrDB3imxW2cdym71&s

[Rockstar]

i could be mistaken but i dont think impeachment by the housebalone disqualifies anyone fom another run. if however there is a conviction after a senate trial then i think that ends it.

[vienna]

The crime committed was asking for something that did not happen, seems like a good excuse for the Senate to forgive the Democrats rush to dump Trump knowing that they can't win in November 2020. :hmmm:


Even if the crime is not fully realized, the attempt to commit, or solicit, the commission of a crime is, in and of itself, a crime; this is seen in the crimes such as attempted robbery or attempted murder, etc.; the actual attempt to organize and carry out a crime is covered, in law, as the crime of criminal conspiracy; just because one isn't able, for whatever reason, to fully complete their criminal intent, they are not immune from laws covering the planning and/or attempted execution of a crime...


As far as not being able to defeat Trump in 2020, the Trumptanic seems fully capable of rushing headlong into an iceberg of its own making...


Full steam ahead!!...






<O>

[Rockstar]

The crime committed was asking for something that did not happen, seems like a good excuse for the Senate to forgive the Democrats rush to dump Trump knowing that they can't win in November 2020. :hmmm:

Poor Mr. Quatro. you appear to have heard in the news which has been hammering away on an almost hourly basis telling you crime has been committed. Has it though? No investigation, no trial, no due process. Yet here you say a crime has been committed? Why?

[Mr Quatro]

Sometimes it happens Rockstar that people misconstrue what I meant.

I meant that Trump is being investigated for a crime by the democrats and the way out for the Senate is that he did not get what he wanted so where is the crime?

That's okay I still love you and eddie (who hates me) and vienna (who disdains me) and August (whom I respect for his service to our country in the Vietnam war) and let us not forget Bilge Rat (who tells it like it is) along with Macdef and Buddahaid and Sky adding to our ever present crew of view points.

If I left you out I'm sorry still drinking my coffee :yep:

[August]

.. and August (whom I respect for his service to our country in the Vietnam war)


Damn i'm old enough but not quite that old! :haha:
Pop served in Vietnam in 1966-67.
I joined up at age 17 in 1977.

[Mr Quatro]

Damn i'm old enough but not quite that old! :haha:
Pop served in Vietnam in 1966-67.
I joined up at age 17 in 1977.

Sorry, all I remember is a picture you posted as a communications tech next to a special truck and thought it was Vietnam. Well I still respect you for hanging in there against all odds. :yep:

[mapuc]

I meant that Trump is being investigated for a crime by the democrats and the way out for the Senate is that he did not get what he wanted so where is the crime?


This made me recall what they in the Swedish law call intent(=Uppsåt)

What was Mr Trump's intent ? Was it to harm an another person politically ?

Was it with malicious intent ?

Or some other reason.

Markus

[August]

Sorry, all I remember is a picture you posted as a communications tech next to a special truck and thought it was Vietnam. Well I still respect you for hanging in there against all odds. :yep:


At least you didn't think it was Korea or WW2. Those guys really are old!

[August]

This made me recall what they in the Swedish law call intent(=Uppsåt)

What was Mr Trump's intent ? Was it to harm an another person politically ?

Was it with malicious intent ?

Or some other reason.

Markus


I think that Trump feels that the Democrats unfairly tried to frame him with the Russian Collusion hoax and he wants to get to the bottom of it and any other illegal hi-jinks they have been up to. Bragging Joe Biden and his son with their history of quid pro quo deals with foreign entities are low hanging fruit, or should be if the Democrats weren't so eager to shield him at all cost, for now anyways. Word here is that his funding has dried up so we'll see how long he lasts.

[Rockstar]

This made me recall what they in the Swedish law call intent(=Uppsåt)

What was Mr Trump's intent ? Was it to harm an another person politically ?

Was it with malicious intent ?

Or some other reason.

Markus


Speaking of intent, calls for impeachment began almost three years ago in 2017 and its been going on relentlessly ever since. Reminds me of what Gerald Ford wrote in 1970. Which according to his opinion the President really serves at the pleasure of congress not the electorate.

"What, then, is an impeachable offense? The only honest answer is that an impeachable offense is whatever a majority of the House of Representatives considers it to be at a given moment in history; conviction results from whatever offense or offenses two-thirds of the other body considers to be sufficiently serious to require removal of the accused from office..." Congressman Gerald Ford, 116 Cong. Rec. H.3113-3114 (April 15, 1970).

[Onkel Neal]

Poll: Tulsi Gabbard Leads Kamala Harris in Democratic Primary
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/poll-tulsi-gabbard-leads-kamala-harris-in-democratic-primary/

[vienna]

...and vienna (who disdains me)...





On the contrary, I don't disdain you; I've never met you or had other contact with you; all I have to go on is what you post on this thread and that is what it is and I do take exception to some of it, but without disdain of you, personally. I respect your right to have your say and, if needs be, will back up your right to speak; but, I do also reserve my own right to disagree with you and provide my own researched evidence to back up my disagreement; providing actual, factual reinforcement of your views on a more regular basis may be something you may want to consider if you wish to avoid the perceived semblance of other's possible animus...


This article caught my eye:

The Excuses for Trump Just Keep Getting More Pathetic and Laughable Every Day --

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-excuses-for-trump-just-keep-getting-more-pathetic-and-laughable-every-day







<O>

[mapuc]

A thought on the upcoming election.

If I read between the lines among those of my friends who support Trump, it doesn't matter which candidate the Dem put forward- s/he will be on a suicide mission unable to beat Trump

If I read between the lines among those of my friends who..well not really fancying Mr Trump, it doesn't matter which candidate the Dem put forward s/he will beat Mr Trump.

Markus

[vienna]

Then, there is the third possibility: Trump and his minions will continue to self-destruct as they seem to be doing by their actions and words and Trump will defeat Trump...






<O>

[vienna]

In the event this may have escaped notice, BuzzFeed has succeeded in their FOIA suit and has obtained the release by the DOJ of a very large amount of the notes from the Mueller investigations and has published a first installment of the materials:


The Mueller Report’s Secret Memos --

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/jasonleopold/mueller-report-secret-memos-1


Just one more thing for Trump, his minions, and Trumpettes to bitch about...


Here is a direct link to a PDF of the material released by the DOJ to BuzzFeed thus far:

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6537542/LEOPOLD-BUZZFEED-NEWS-FBI-Mueller-302s-FOIA.pdf


I've downloaded the PDF; it makes for some interesting reading...







<O>

[mapuc]

I read a little here and a little there in those two links

Could not really get the grip of it or is it the hang of it.

Hm either way it's your President or your headache

Solve this by impeach him(if he truly have broken some laws otherwise not) or select an another candidate

I presume the Rep will pick another candidate if Trump is impeached and they are doing this whether he is fired(VP takes over) or not = continue as President until Jan 19 2021.

Markus

[em2nought]

I presume the Rep will pick another candidate if Trump is impeached and they are doing this whether he is fired(VP takes over) or not = continue as President until Jan 19 2021.

Markus


Remove Trump from the equation and there will be something other than an election. :03:

[Buddahaid]

Sounds like brown shirts, how noble.

[em2nought]

Sounds like brown shirts, how noble.


I think you mean buckskin? :up:
Is that Beto on horseback? LOL

https://patriottoursnyc.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/lexington.jpg

[Buddahaid]

No, it doesn't. It sounds like brown shirts.

[August]

No, it doesn't. It sounds like brown shirts.




Really? I fail to see the connection between patriotic Americans defending their elected president and a gang of nazis known for street fighting and other riotous behavior. If you're looking for behavior more closely resembling the brown shirts look no further than that radical arm of the Democratic party called Antifa.

[VipertheSniper]

Really? I fail to see the connection between patriotic Americans defending their elected president and a gang of nazis known for street fighting and other riotous behavior. If you're looking for behavior more closely resembling the brown shirts look no further than that radical arm of the Democratic party called Antifa.

But the impeachment is a constitutional process or is it not? So if Trump doesn't beat the charges, whatever they maybe in the end and thus is removed from office lawfully, it would be fine to start a revolution? Am I missing something here, I mean that's what em2nought suggested with his comments or was it not?

What would that make these "patriots" if they took up arms?

The scenario that the Republicans put up someone else even if Trump beats the charges is highly unlikely, might as well hand the keys to the White House to the Dems in that case.

[August]

But the impeachment is a constitutional process or is it not? So if Trump doesn't beat the charges, whatever they maybe in the end and thus is removed from office lawfully, it would be fine to start a revolution? Am I missing something here, I mean that's what em2nought suggested with his comments or was it not?

The only time it is ever "right" to start a revolution is if you win. That was true in 1776 and it is still true today. If the Continentals had failed it's a fair bet that our founding fathers and a great majority of their supporters would have ended their days dancing from a British gibbet.


The only way I could ever support a revolution, and I imagine that em2 is of similar opinion is if I thought, as they say in Rhode Island, "the fix was in", but even that isn't enough imo because there no such thing as a lone revolutionary, at least not one that will win.

[mapuc]

At any given time

There will always be people or voters who feel there's time for a revolution mostly because it didn't worked as they had hoped for under an election and years after.

Markus

[Buddahaid]

Really? I fail to see the connection between patriotic Americans defending their elected president and a gang of nazis known for street fighting and other riotous behavior. If you're looking for behavior more closely resembling the brown shirts look no further than that radical arm of the Democratic party called Antifa.

I see your point and don't disagree in principal, but the veiled threatRemove Trump from the equation and there will be something other than an election. :03: of a right wing junta just crosses the line between patriotism and revolution. And don't give me pictures of the colonies revolting against the British as some relevant example. It is not the same thing.

[August]

I see your point and don't disagree in principal, but the veiled threat of a right wing junta just crosses the line between patriotism and revolution. And don't give me pictures of the colonies revolting against the British as some relevant example. It is not the same thing.

I'll take a veiled threat of a right wing junta over the far more naked ambitions of the left any day. But are we talking about a movement or just a private citizen demonstrating his frustration with divisive and never ending drive to remove the president?

[Buddahaid]

You tell me. Just the thought of that being a viable alternative is repulsive to me.

[Skybird]

It still lives.



https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/upshot/trump-biden-warren-polls.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

[Torvald Von Mansee]

Too bad we won the Civil War. Life in the rest of the country without the South would have been awesome today.

[August]

Too bad we won the Civil War. Life in the rest of the country without the South would have been awesome today.




There would not have been a "rest of the country". There would have been more like 40 or 50 countries, pretty much constantly at war with each other. Once the south proved that a state could leave the union, more would have followed. Balkanization would quickly ensue even among the Confederate states who would not want to put up with orders from Richmond any more than they did from Washington. No I think we're better off that the Union was preserved.

[mapuc]

Looks like we are in the univers of counterfactual history

What if the South won the civil war

Can we give a plausible alleged on how the US would have looked today, if the south had won ?

And WWI and WWII ?

Markus

[August]

Looks like we are in the univers of counterfactual history

What if the South won the civil war

Can we give a plausible alleged on how the US would have looked today, if the south had won ?

And WWI and WWII ?

Markus


I once read this book which postulates the same thing:


https://www.amazon.com/South-Had-Won-Civil-War/dp/0312869495


I don't agree with the authors theory. Like I said above a south win will cause the states to Balkanize.

[vienna]

Cyclist who flipped off Trump motorcade wins local office in Virginia --

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/05/politics/juli-briskman-trump-motorcade-flipped-off-local-office-win/index.html


Speaking to CNN's Jeanne Moos in 2017, Briskman contended she's "really not" the bird-flipping type, but still made her feelings toward Trump clear.


"Health care doesn't pass, but you try to dismantle it from the inside," she said. "Five hundred people get shot in Las Vegas; you're doing nothing about it. You know, white supremacists have this big march and hurt a bunch of people down in Charlottesville and you call them good people."


"My finger said what I was feeling," Briskman said at the time. "I'm angry and I'm frustrated."



Remember The Cyclist Who Flipped Off Trump’s Motorcade? She Just Won A Virginia Election. --

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/juli-briskman-flipped-off-trump-motorcade-loudoun-county-supervisor-board-virginia_n_5dc1e085e4b08b735d616c7e


The voters speak...







<O>

[Rockstar]

The voters speak...

<O>

As it should be.


Unfortunately I know of two states that were attempting to prevent that from happening. Then there is the potential lack of meaningful protection against unwarranted disclosure of tax information. Stalin would be proud, and Putin? Well Putin is still having a good laugh.

[AVGWarhawk]

Cyclist who flipped off Trump motorcade wins local office in Virginia --

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/05/politics/juli-briskman-trump-motorcade-flipped-off-local-office-win/index.html





Remember The Cyclist Who Flipped Off Trump’s Motorcade? She Just Won A Virginia Election. --

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/juli-briskman-flipped-off-trump-motorcade-loudoun-county-supervisor-board-virginia_n_5dc1e085e4b08b735d616c7e


The voters speak...







<O>


She was elected to supervisor of her district. Hardly a spot to take on the administration in DC. :haha: Only made front page because she flipped off a Trump motorcade. Hope she has fun getting flipped off by those in her district that don't care for her.

[vienna]

Maybe, but she'll probably be in office longer than Trump... :haha:






<O>

[AVGWarhawk]

Maybe, but she'll probably be in office longer than Trump... :haha:






<O>

Trump may be impeached. Removed, I would say not.

[Mr Quatro]

Poor poor delusional people that think the democrats can field someone that can beat President Trump surely not the front runners of Biden, Warren or Sanders.

Biden's full story has not been told yet (closest left over from Obama era)

Trump will win in 2020 less than one year from now:

The presidential election will be held on Tuesday, Nov. 3, 2020.

Due to the persistence of the Attorney General of New York Trump will finally be accused of something that he actually did and will have to admit it and absolve the throne to VP Pence in order to get a pardon.

What that is I'm not sure, but the grapevine says it was his charity that he misused money from for personal reasons.

P.S. Meet the sleeper candidate for the democrats out raising Biden even in fund raising

https://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=mcafee&type=E211US1274G91208&p=Buttigieg+is+the+only+candidate+in+the+giant+fie ld+who%E2%80%99s+a+veteran%2C+who+did+a+tour+in+Af ghanistan+as+a+Navy+lieutenant.

Other than Representative Tulsi Gabbard of Hawaii, who’s also 37 and running for president, and Representative Seth Moulton of Massachusetts, who’s continued flirting with a run at 40, Buttigieg is the only candidate in the giant field who’s a veteran, who did a tour in Afghanistan as a Navy lieutenant. He will be the first and only openly gay presidential candidate. He is also one of the few midwesterners looking at the race, and might end up as the only one who actually jumps in. And he could be the only mayor to run for president in 2020.

Buttigieg, a Rhodes Scholar, is clearly a very smart guy, so he knows this is a long shot, or maybe a loooong shot, just as he knows that ending up with the nomination or the White House would obliterate whatever conventional wisdom is left in presidential politics.

[Dowly]

Due to the persistence of the Attorney General of New York Trump will finally be accused of something that he actually did and will have to admit it and absolve the throne to VP Pence in order to get a pardon.Wouldn't those be state charges; unpardonable by Pence. Trump's in big trouble when he steps down, New York especially is out to get him.

[Mr Quatro]

Wouldn't those be state charges; unpardonable by Pence. Trump's in big trouble when he steps down, New York especially is out to get him.

I'm no lawyer, but I was thinking the same thing Dowly, plus I heard the House is trying to pass a bill that they can get Trump even when he gets out of office.

But I don't think they plan on Trump winning the 2020 election yet

[Skybird]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/07/us/politics/michael-bloomberg-president-2020.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes



Bloomberg prepares to throw his hat into the ring. With 77 years, probably not really a heart-wish anymore, but he has correctly understood that with the candidates the Democrats have so far, they hardly have too promising chances to chase the little boy away in one year. Right now, the only one able to put him at risk, is Lil Cesar himself. Bloomberg might not be the name automatically coming to mind when thinking "White House", but c'mon: Warren? Sanders? Biden?

[Skybird]

Midnight self-massacre, eh? There seems to be a word for everything.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/07/books/review/a-warning-anonymous-book-review-trump.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

https://www.washingtonpost.com/gdpr-consent/?destination=%2fpolitics%2fbook-by-anonymous-describes-trump-as-cruel-inept-and-a-danger-to-the-nation%2f2019%2f11%2f07%2fb6b6c6f2-0150-11ea-8bab-0fc209e065a8_story.html%3f

The author seems to have run the bell a year ago already. It is assumed he is an arch-Republican from the inner circle.

For those not having subscriptions for the NYT and WP, its all in the news over here:

https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.welt.de%2Fpolitik%2Fausland%2F article203200916%2FDonald-Trump-Mitarbeiter-sollen-ueber-Massenruecktritt-nachgedacht-haben.html

https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fpolitik%2Fausland %2Fdonald-trump-im-weissen-haus-mitarbeiter-dachten-offenbar-ueber-massenruecktritt-nach-a-1295480.html