US Politics Thread 2016-2020

[Bleiente]

Trump is not a public servant, a servant of the people and the idea of freedom, he misuses these ideas merely for his own ends; otherwise he would have to do this as an honest man for the good of the community:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwC0QCWhIX0

But that will not even happen, because these Trumps came as beggars and now they do not want to lose their influence and capital with this office.

No problem - we know it and will stop the TRUMP idiots.


:salute:


For Idiots... :haha:

[August]

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-uV5S3LEs5Ds/V1aQz-VpGKI/AAAAAAAApA4/ZYdi2Ez8NN8-H4Qd7495B6zhS2ZBkewIQCLcB/s1600/tears.jpg

[em2nought]

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-uV5S3LEs5Ds/V1aQz-VpGKI/AAAAAAAApA4/ZYdi2Ez8NN8-H4Qd7495B6zhS2ZBkewIQCLcB/s1600/tears.jpg

I'm thinking this tastes a little salty and a little sweet! :har:

[August]

I'm thinking this tastes a little salty and a little sweet! :har:


Probably make you fail a drug test though... :)

[Bilge_Rat]

For Idiots... :haha:

you are referring to Germans? based on the ones posting here, I would have to agree. Don't you guys have politics in your own country? I would comment on German politics, but since Germany has been a doormat in international politics for the past 75 years, I can't say I ever paid much attention...:har:

[Skybird]

Another reason for America's most liked president to stomp his feet and yell into Twitter like babies swing their rattle.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44916853

Извините, чувак, что мы причиняем вам такие обстоятельства. привет, Владимир.

[August]

Another reason for America's most liked president to stomp his feet and yell into Twitter like babies swing their rattle.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44916853

Извините, чувак, что мы причиняем вам такие обстоятельства. привет, Владимир.


Yeah because because Trump haters demand Trump not defend himself against their politically motivated attacks on him.


Here's some more to chew on:


James Clapper, the former director of national intelligence, told a CNN audience that Putin must be blackmailing Trump. “After the Helsinki performance … I really do wonder whether the Russians have something on him,” Clapper said.
Naturally, James Comey piped up. The former FBI director tweeted (https://twitter.com/Comey/status/1019398962019819520) that Republicans in Congress had abrogated their constitutional duty to “counteract ambition” – yes, he said that, adding: “All who believe in this country’s values must vote for Democrats this fall.”
That’s right, the man who put himself in charge of investigating the 2016 presidential nominees said every loyal American should vote against Republicans in the 2018 midterms. This from the guy who assured Trump that he didn’t leak or “do sneaky things” – before slyly leaking FBI documents to a lawyer pal in hopes of getting another ally (Robert Mueller) appointed special counsel.
Today’s Democrats, along with U.S. intelligence types and their media sympathizers, have made a loyalty test out of expressing solidarity with Mueller’s investigation. In so doing, they have settled on an incongruous story line (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-weiner-trump-commentary/commentary-trump-has-attacked-u-s-intel-agencies-expect-them-to-strike-back-idUSKBN1K82AB): (1) There is no such thing as the “Deep State,” which is strictly a figment of Trump’s imagination; (2) the Deep State will protect Americans from this horrible president, who, by the way, is a Russian mole.


https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2018/07/22/revenge_of_the_deep_state.html

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2018/07/first-thoughts-on-the-carter-page-fisa-application.php

[Mr Quatro]

James Clapper, the former director of national intelligence is on someone's payroll to edge the conversation towards what the director of that particular news media wants to stir up and that's the truth as I perceive it :yep:

[August]

James Clapper, the former director of national intelligence is on someone's payroll to edge the conversation towards what the director of that particular news media wants to stir up and that's the truth as I perceive it :yep:




If it were just the lust for money that'd be one thing but him, Brennan and Comey are all raging Democrats who apparently feel they know better than the American people and hopefully all three will be behind bars soon for their failed coup attempt. Unless of course Congress changes hands in November at which point the Dems will squash it all. Indeed had Clinton won we would never have heard of it in the first place. That alone makes Trump worth it.

[skidman]

Yeah because because Trump haters demand Trump not defend himself against their politically motivated attacks on him.

Oh sure he is entitled to defend himself. Problem is, he is an intellectual midget incapable of giving satisfaction.

[Skybird]

Lenin had his useful idots, and Putin obviously has his. Trump is like a mega-dose of political Novichok injected into American society. Just look what a splendid job it does to rip integral social neurons apart and paralysing neural nexi, hindering them to function as intended. Its as if the administrative equivalent of an autoimmune disease is consuming the cells of American society and administration.

This poison will continue to do its destructive work of communcal and social desintegration long after the man already has left the office. The mind and spirit of America is poisened. And it will remain to be so long after Trumop is gone. While the American brain is hallucinating and euphoric, like a pilot breathing too much nitrogen.

At least America finally learns a historic lesson that so far it has not needed to share with its European neighbours: why it is that people even be enthusiastic and cheerful when ap.lauding a tyrant to powers and seeing him destroxying the old order.

The problem there only is that the lesson will cost not just America, what is just fair, but the rest of the world as well. Russia must be amazed about how wonderfully the old order keeping the West together and ties of world economy running, desintegrate. Just because one useful idiot got successfully smuggled into the highest office.

This whole situation is the best argument if not even evidence one could wish for in support of this book: LINK (https://www.amazon.com/Against-Democracy-Preface-Jason-Brennan/dp/0691178496/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1532292630&sr=8-1&keywords=jason+brennan). And I am weaiting for the Ger,an edition of this one: LINK (https://www.amazon.com/Democracy-Realists-Elections-Responsive-Government/dp/0691178240/ref=pd_bxgy_14_img_2?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0691178240&pd_rd_r=e46bd700-8df0-11e8-8055-c563715e95aa&pd_rd_w=JotIg&pd_rd_wg=DsCJ4&pf_rd_i=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_p=1475879231140687736&pf_rd_r=8ERSPNSB91GDSVP05KPG&pf_rd_s=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_t=40701&psc=1&refRID=8ERSPNSB91GDSVP05KPG).


The West is being ripped apart. Russia has won. I hate to admit it, but they played this so well that even now many Americans still do not believe that they were played against the wall, and enthusiastically defend the goal of this Russian coup. Heck, they even pretend to party! As the German proverb goes: die dümmsten Kälber wählen sich ihre Metzger selber.

[Skybird]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44865626



She tried to establish "back channel" lines of communication to "penetrate the US national decision-making apparatus", the Justice Department said.
Yep, the most precise description of what the Russian are about since many years. We know it all to well in Germany - with our experiences with Islamic and especially Turkish-nationalistic and pro-Erdoghan lobby groups. Same strategy, same goal: Getting inside the system and influencing decision- and law-making without confronting the defence frontally and under the eyes of the public. If you cannot kick in the front door in frontal assault, pretend to be the milkman, ring and ask for a glass of water and an aspirin, smiling. Mind and hearts will open and fly at you and invite you soon into the kitchen.

[u crank]

This poison will continue to do its destructive work of communal and social disintegration long after the man already has left the office. The mind and spirit of America is poisoned. And it will remain to be so long after Trump is gone.

I am curious. Can you give some actual examples of this?

.. why it is that people even be enthusiastic and cheerful when applauding a tyrant to powers and seeing him destroying the old order.

Can you explain and give examples of Trump being a tyrant?

Just because one useful idiot got successfully smuggled into the highest office.

Can you give the exact details as to how Trump got 'smuggled into the highest office.'

The West is being ripped apart. Russia has won. I hate to admit it, but they played this so well that even now many Americans still do not believe that they were played against the wall, and enthusiastically defend the goal of this Russian coup.

Russia has a population of 143,964,709. Canada has a population of 36,937,913. Their GDP is almost the same.

Russia is Mexico with nukes. Look under your bed tonight.

[Bleiente]

"Truck Fonald Dump"...
http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/donald-trump-in-den-medien-kotze-muss-man-kotze-nennen-a-1219001.html


:03:

[Catfish]

^ this article is actually not bad at all, but the english G00gle translation is beyond anything as usual.. :nope:

The right quote would be "Don't let Trump be Trump" and it is spot on, for the non Fox/Breitbart media.

[Skybird]

^ :har:



A similar effect have citations in written media that are not adequately embedded in their context. The Trump message is always co-presented, and it unfolds its effect regardless of the classic editorial gymnastics around it - even more so with those who are media skeptical anyway.


When Trump would say tomorrow that the moon is made of cheese, the headlines would be:


"Trump: moon of cheese"
"Trump's statement on the moon is rejected by Nasa"
"Discussion about Trump's Controversial Moon Opinion"

Three days later, the effect can be seen on Facebook, in the form of contributions of the variety: "Nasa admits: Neil Amstrong's cousin was involved in a cheese factory at the time of the 'moon landing'. And "Cheese Moon - What are you hiding from us?". 200,000 likes. Then there come insightful debates that call for taking the fears and concerns of cheese-bourgeois citizens seriously.

The first questions in classical media emerge, if not a small part of the moon could at least theoretically be made of cheese - because of Merkel's error when supplementing the EU cheese regulation No. 608/2004 L 50 in the year 2015. Or if that is not allegorical anyway, and therefore worth considering. Ultimately, the poor cheese monks were forced into their worldview by the constant insistence of science that the moon was made of stone. One could not even mention the cheese moon without facing harsh objection: political correctness in its worst form - censorship, Stalin, cheese murder.

[Catfish]

"The headline "Trump explains and corrects itself" is an unintentional journalistic gift for Trump, born of the desire to respect the usual editorial rules. His "corrective" claim after 24 hours that he accidentally said "would" instead of "would not" is not even a bad lie and certainly no explanation or correction. It is sheer bullxxxxx."
I mean bovine scatology, since it is a quote and a translation i hope to get away with it :D

So true also for our media, when they are so stunned by brazen lies that they don't know how to answer properly, for what the "statement" initially asks – an at least verbal kick in the crotch.

[u crank]

Has any thing like this been reported in Der Spiegel?:hmmm:

Confirmed: DOJ Used Materially False Information To Secure Wiretaps On Trump Associate.

http://thefederalist.com/2018/07/23/confirmed-doj-used-materially-false-information-to-secure-wiretaps-on-trump-associate/

After long suspecting that this might be true... guess what? It almost certainly is true. This is no little thing. The administration of Barak Obama spied on the campaign and the incoming administration of President Trump.

Newly released documents confirm House and Senate investigators’ claims that the Department of Justice and FBI used materially false and misleading information to secure wiretaps on Carter Page, a former volunteer foreign policy advisor to President Trump.


Despite claiming to the court in 2016 that “the FBI believes that Page has been collaborating and conspiring with the Russian Government,” the government has yet to charge Page with breaking any of the serious laws it alleges he knowingly transgressed.

It remains possible that Page is the most talented spy who ever walked the earth and fully deserved to be surveilled by the federal government. It is also possible that the surveillance was ordered merely because the country has an intelligence apparatus that was unable to recognize their main source was a liar whose sub-sources were at best playing him and whose recklessness left his little partisan research project open to manipulation by foreign adversaries.

Barring those options, our intelligence apparatus misled a FISA court with materially false claims.

[Dowly]

The administration of Barak Obama spied on the campaign and the incoming administration of President Trump.Carter Page wasn't in the Trump campaign team anymore in October of 2016 when the first FISA application was filed. :doh:

[u crank]

Carter Page wasn't in the Trump campaign team anymore in October of 2016 when the first FISA application was filed. :doh:

That is correct Dowly. I believe, but can't find a source that says that the FISA warrant can gain access to previous communications, emails, phone records etc. Or maybe I just dreamed that.:O:

[August]

https://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/payn_c15884120180722120100.jpg

[August]

Ok one more:


https://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/mle180721c20180720093926.jpg

[Dowly]

Trump Proposes Mueller Interview With No Obstruction Questions (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-24/trump-s-lawyers-submit-proposal-to-mueller-on-interview-terms)

President Donald Trump would agree to an interview with Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s investigators if it’s limited to questions on whether his presidential campaign colluded with Russia in the 2016 election, lawyer Rudy Giuliani said on Monday night.

Trump is demanding in return that he isn’t asked questions about obstruction of justice in the probe into election interference, under a proposal the president’s legal team submitted to Mueller, Giuliani said.

The president’s legal team is concerned that Mueller and his staff might believe witnesses who contradicted Trump’s account, such as former FBI Director James Comey, Giuliani said. That could leave the president vulnerable to a perjury charge, he added.He sure is scared for someone who keeps repeating how innocent he is.

[u crank]

He sure is scared for someone who keeps repeating how innocent he is.

Possibly. From the linked article....

The president’s legal team is concerned that Mueller and his staff might believe witnesses who contradicted Trump’s account, such as former FBI Director James Comey, Giuliani said. That could leave the president vulnerable to a perjury charge, he added.

Trump should not submit to any interviews by Mueller's team. Not without a subpoena, and then fight that. Mueller's friendship with Comey is a glaring conflict of interest.

In my humble opinion. :smug:

[Dowly]

Mueller's friendship with Comey is a glaring conflict of interest.*alleged friendship.

[Mr Quatro]

Trump should not submit to any interviews by Mueller's team. Not without a subpoena, and then fight that. Mueller's friendship with Comey is a glaring conflict of interest.

In my humble opinion. :smug:

I agree :up: do I get a cookie?

[u crank]

*alleged friendship.

You are a stickler aren't you.:D

Let me rephrase that. Mueller's relationship with Comey is a glaring conflict of interest.

What you have here is an investigation by one former director of the FBI that has a central figure and potential witness who is also a former director of the FBI and succeeded Mueller in the job. I would bet that they have talked on occasion.

Then again there is pre Trump evidence that they were close friends.

That dramatic week had united the two men—both career public servants—deepening a friendship forged in the crucible of the highest levels of the national security apparatus after the 9/11 attacks.

Now, today, President Obama’s decision to appoint Jim Comey the next head of the FBI—to take over after Bob Mueller’s remarkable 12 years as director—brings a strong sense of continuity to the nation’s chief domestic law enforcement agency. Both known as Republicans but primarily as apolitical prosecutors, Comey and Mueller are set to begin a new chapter of a friendship that stretches back over a decade, as one man hands over the reins of one of the most critical agencies in the war on terror to the other.

https://archive.is/hTX6c#selection-1131.0-1131.511



I agree :up: do I get a cookie?

You may have a cookie and some milk. :salute:

[Aktungbby]

THIS JUST IN:

WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report (https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report))—Charting a sharply different course from that of his predecessor in the White House, Donald J. Trump announced on Monday that he would discontinue the Obama-era practice of using lowercase letters.
In a series of early-morning tweets, Trump announced the ban on lowercase letters, calling them “SMALL” and “WEAK.”
“I WILL KEEP AMERICA STRONG BY USING ALL CAPS,” he tweeted. “THERE ARE NO SMALL LETTERS IN USA!”
“LITTLE LETTERS BAD!!!” Trump added, for emphasis.
Trump’s policy of zero tolerance for lowercase letters could have a sweeping impact on the federal bureaucracy if, as rumored, all government agencies are required to retrofit their computers and mobile devices with a permanent caps-lock key.
Additionally, civil-liberties groups argued that Trump’s war on lowercase letters flies in the face of the First Amendment, which implicitly protects the right to use letters of all sizes and fonts.
Amid the controversy, the White House appeared to walk back the new policy later in the day, as aides revealed that Trump will still use lowercase letters, in the style of the poet e. e. cummings, when communicating with Vladimir Putin.
:O:

[Skybird]

"Made in America" great again?

https://www.welt.de/img/politik/ausland/mobile179928970/1962500097-ci102l-w1024/USA-TRADE-CHINA-FLAGS.jpg

Its made in China.

:hmmm:


https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article179924882/Chinesische-Fabrik-produziert-Wahlkampf-Flaggen-fuer-Donald-Trump.html

[u crank]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Or be thankful for small mercies.

Try to imagine the surprise of the first Russians who figured out the Secretary of State of the United States was conducting official business on a “private server.” Those two words do not convey the full transgressiveness of the behavior. Essentially the government is functioning out of the private home of a plenipotentiary. This is a person who not only believes she is above the law, she believes she is the law.

https://spectator.org/russian-collision-why-2016-was-different/

When it finally sinks in this is real, a sinking feeling sends Putin’s heart plummeting. This is not American government, this is hooliganism. This is government by the bosses, of the bosses, for the bosses. There is something familiar about Clintonism… rings such a bell… it is so like… Putinism!

I am reminded of the famous parady quote by Pogo cartoonist Walt Kelly.

"We have met the enemy and he is us."

What they saw in Hillary’s come-and-get-it private server, what they saw in the DNC hacks, frightened Putin’s boys no end. Here was an American version of Putin, a power player who rigged elections and ignored the rules of engagement. Much too scary, too “stabilizing” for comfort.

And so the Russians finally dropped the Bomb. Not the Atom Bomb or the Hydrogen Bomb or the Neutron Bomb. They dropped a Truth Bomb and showed Americans we were about to put in our own Putin. You can’t trump the truth!

I'm thinking that someone should send Vlad a thank you note and a gift.:O:

[Catfish]

[...] I'm thinking that someone should send Vlad a thank you note and a gift.:O:


Trump just did it, in Helsinki. Though he could not express it too well, so he has invited Putin to the White House :O:

[u crank]

Trump just did it, in Helsinki. Though he could not express it too well, so he has invited Putin to the White House :O:

:haha:

He should give him a medal and a life membership at Mar a Lago.:03:

Hillary would have been generous as well. More uranium shares and a larger reset button:O:.

[Mr Quatro]

Trump just did it, in Helsinki. Though he could not express it too well, so he has invited Putin to the White House :O:

Something funny happened in that room in Helsinki for two (2) hours and it wasn't Trump letting out a fart. I'm leaning into the actual truth of it all is that Putin did in fact get Trump elected POTUS with his team of Russian agents manipulating the news media, facebook, twitter, etc especially in the swing states.

What happen in that room? Will the democrats subpoena a copy of the transcript of the translator or call her to testify?

I don't think they will, but it is an option :yep:

[Dowly]

Will the democrats subpoena a copy of the transcript of the translator or call her to testify?

I don't think they will, but it is an option :yep:
From six days ago:

Republicans block subpoena for Helsinki summit translator (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/congress/republicans-block-subpoena-for-helsinki-summit-translator/2018/07/19/e0244da6-8b64-11e8-9d59-dccc2c0cabcf_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.46cc3ba33d78)

WASHINGTON — Republicans on the House Intelligence Committee have blocked a move to subpoena the American translator from the Helsinki summit to testify about the private talks between President Donald Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin.

[AVGWarhawk]

From six days ago:

Republicans block subpoena for Helsinki summit translator (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/congress/republicans-block-subpoena-for-helsinki-summit-translator/2018/07/19/e0244da6-8b64-11e8-9d59-dccc2c0cabcf_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.46cc3ba33d78)

Guess this is why it is called "private". What an awesome distraction to running the country. If the jack wagons on Capitol Hill put this much effort into running the country perhaps things would be better. I'm not just talking about this administration. All administrations since inception.

So what is Stormy Daniels doing other than some ram-rod in a new porn movie? Oh, yes, she is on the divorce block for infidelity with Trump. Now she want privacy for her family yet is out on the stage wagging her tail while in complete undress. :doh:

You can't make this crap up!!!!! :yeah:

[Mr Quatro]

From six days ago:

Republicans block subpoena for Helsinki summit translator (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/congress/republicans-block-subpoena-for-helsinki-summit-translator/2018/07/19/e0244da6-8b64-11e8-9d59-dccc2c0cabcf_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.46cc3ba33d78)

Thank you I didn't see that ... the democrats are not giving up though. It's sort of like they want to chisel Trump into Mt Rushmore in 2020 and take over the WH.

http://www.wweek.com/news/2018/07/24/senator-jeff-merkley-introduces-legislation-that-would-bar-president-trump-from-meeting-one-on-on-with-putin/

Sen. Jeff Merkley Introduces Legislation That Would Bar President Trump From Meeting One-on-On With Putin

[Bleiente]

I do not even understand how someone purely intellectual wants to follow this extremely stupid pig, Donald Trump ... you should arrest the whole family and condemn them. After all, they are collectively folk and fatherland traitors. :03:


Edit:
Gerhard Schröder gehört ebenfalls für Volks- und Vaterlandsverrat standrechtlich hingerichtet.

[Catfish]

You don't understand.. there's money in it. Only poor people can afford to be really honest, and stand to certain values. Once you cross the Rubikon..
The art is to make them all blind to your deeds. You are like them, you understand them.. you are not arrogant towards the unwashed masses, you are the real labour leader :up:
With all those millions, and corpses in your cellar.

[u crank]

I do not even understand how someone purely intellectual wants to follow this extremely stupid pig, Donald Trump ... you should arrest the whole family and condemn them. After all, they are collectively folk and fatherland traitors. :03:


It's pretty hard to understand how anybody could have an intellectual discussion with statements like this. Why don't you give some hard and fast details for your beliefs instead of this kind of somewhat broad and and unintellectual posting.

[Bleiente]

It's pretty hard to understand how anybody could have an intellectual discussion with statements like this. Why don't you give some hard and fast details for your beliefs instead of this kind of somewhat broad and and unintellectual posting.
Well that's totally easy - read "The Capital" by Karl Marx.
... :03:



:haha:

[Catfish]

^ Hey, it's not so easy anymore. Trump is on Putin's side (or in his pocket), so you can't say nasty thing about either :D

Ok on a serious note.. i do not know what makes him tick, but he sure keeps people talking about him. Why?
Just don't mention him for a while and look at what's on the final bill.
He is now 'the president', it is too late to do anything. If he really does what he says regarding sanctions, tarriffs and all (while it does not look like it at all) there's enough means to counter that.
Don't react if they call you 'snowflake' or 'leftist', all the world needs to see is how he behaves, live. They can support him until hell freezes over, he cannot stop people laughing at him. Getting aggressive about things you cannot change are guaranteed to make you unhappy.

[u crank]

Well that's totally easy - read "The Capital" by Karl Marx.

Are you saying Trump is a Marxist? Are you saying you are a Marxist? Or are you saying I am a Marxist? Pretty hard to tell what you are saying. Try harder.

[u crank]

He is now 'the president', it is too late to do anything.

Well yes he is President but not for ever. Here in Canada you could be Prime Minister for 20 years. The US system, while not perfect has some safeguards against long term political dissatisfaction. The House of Representatives is reelected every 2 years. The Senate will have 33 of 100 seats up for reelection every 2 years. Theoretically Trump could lose all his legislative power in November. Just ask Obama how that works. People are hysterical for no reason. Trump's power is limited by the Constitution and the Legislative and Judicial branches of the US government. It's kinda funny to hear all this derangement syndrome stuff without any actual substance to back it up.

They can support him until hell freezes over, he cannot stop people laughing at him.

That's the thing though. Not every one is laughing. He still has strong support amongst Republicans and they don't pay much attention to the hysterical voices.

Getting aggressive about things you cannot change are guaranteed to make you unhappy.

You are so right. :salute:

[Skybird]

As politologist Jason Brennan remarks somewhere, such "safeties" only make sense when there is an electorate that is intelligent enough to make use of them. Unfortunately most voters are of an knowledge level for the key items on their mind, that disqualifies them for having any right to even just an educated opinion, not to mention: casting a voite (whatever worth that may be) . Because the mentioned education, and the intelligence anywa, often lack. Mobs, and mobs of voters as well, are stupid herds of cattle. The more there are, the less signs of intelligent life to be found, and the easier to control the mass. The holy cow of modenr democracy,m the elecitojn scheme, is nothig but a security valve to give people the illusion that their precious opinio9n count ssomething. That should keep them from either exploding (dead people you canot tax endlessly anymore), or revolting.

After having seen several US presidents in the past almost 30 years now who committed unbelievably stupid and ruthless policies and nevertheless were given the full opportunty timeframe to maximise their damage by giving them a second term, and after watching how the trench warfare in the political America deepens and deepens since 20 years, I have no faith in these claimed safeties. They are just a strawman alibi, usually referred to by those who currently are in control of the power in order to soothe resistence to their rule. Not to mention that in the "mill" of daily adminstraiton, you almost enver can vote potlicians out of poltics, becasue their oarty stays loyal to them and just suttles them arpound on different positions. You just canot vote and makwe them dissappear once and for all, it seems. They stick to you like a bad smell after a fire sticks to your clothing, for decades.

In principle I always do not trust this safeties argument in favour of "democracy". It has also not helped anything to prevent that lobbies and corrupt old boys networks hijack the design and then manipulate and tialor it to their advantage.

As usual, my reminder of that what the modern era mislables as democracy, for the ancient Greeks were no democracy at all, but its antagonist: tyranny. We forge history or abuse it when calling our system today "democracy". Democracy is a feudal government system by a social elite - noble men: free, rich warriors - that knows no right for general elections that eveybody could attend. This elite forms decisions by majoirty vote: but you had to be qualified to attend in that assembly:by your social class and by your good renown (Leumund), proving that you are loyal to the city's culture, your deities, and your family, both dead and alive. Just 5-15% of the Greek city states' populations qualified for that priviliged status and thus were "citizens" eligibly to raise their voise, make their opinion heard, and cast a vote in majority votes to bring a deicison about something.

That we talk today of "democracy, could have been a detail taken directly from Orwell's language correction and history rewriting in 1984.

[Onkel Neal]

^

Ok on a serious note.. i do not know what makes him tick, but he sure keeps people talking about him. Why?
Just don't mention him for a while and look at what's on the final bill.
He is now 'the president', it is too late to do anything. If he really does what he says regarding sanctions, tarriffs and all (while it does not look like it at all) there's enough means to counter that.

I'm pretty confident that people who oppose him in politics and the media understand they have the power to stir up the welfare class against him through constant bombardments of hysteria and distortions. Sure, there's a lot of things about Donald Trump to laugh about, but I am beginning to come around to acknowledging he is doing a pretty good job. His policies have caused the EU to come running to Washington and cry "uncle".

President Trump announced Wednesday that he has secured major trade concessions from European Union officials as part of an effort to head off a trade war between the U.S. and the E.U.
https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEHylSdWmJea2YY4TLkkgf-0qFwgEKg8IACoHCAow1tzJATDnyxUwx4YY?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US%3Aen

I'm hearing China will be next. The Donald said China has tarrifs on the US and trades unfairly and no other President would stand up to them. He did, he said I'll slap tariffs on $50 billion of Chinese goods. The Chinese said, oh yeah? Well, we slap $50 billion in tariffs too! Donald said, ok, we'll go to $800 billion. The Chinese said, yikes, we're screwed! We don't have that much coming in from the US.

[Skybird]

The Brtis un derestimated Brussel'S ability to stay united and unmoved when vital key interests of the block are at stake. Neither did the Germans and their car industry come to May's rescue (as I predicted to Jim many months ago), nor was londown sucvcessful to divide the players on the continent and get single deals with this or that nation.



Trump currently seems to amke the same mistake. That Junckers accepted minor concessions (soy beans and liquid gas) for the sake of more important greater benefits, cannot hide that it was Trump hoping to get single deals withEWuropean nations, but he hasn't, and that it was Trump killing TTIP that the Europeans wanted: because of no tarriffs. Now the EU gets what it wanted: no tariffs. And some voting farmers sell soy beans to the EU. Okay, so be it.



You implied that China is acting weak. It isn'T. When Trump said: tariffs up to 50 bn, they retaliated immediately and in less than 24 hours with a similiar return. And they hold plenty of US treasuries, still. Trumps "800 bn, tariffs on evertyhing", so far is just a claim. Now, have you noticed what happened after Russia sold what was left of its US treasuries in the two months before the summit? They once had over 130 bn in US bonds, now they hold just 14 bn, and still selling. That costed your FED 0.4 poin ts in interests it has to pay more for newly sold bonds. And that translates into billions and billions, if you calculate all costs and follow-on costs and interests from that. Now imagine what would happen to your interest rates if China starts toi dumb its US bonds on the market and maybe even in a rush?

They are not weak. They just cushion the ball and make it reflecting, hitting you from an unexpected direction.

And lest face it, if they fully retaliate in tariffs alone, this would be felt in the US. Strongly.

BTW, the EU and Japan have signed a free trade deal that was expected to be negotiated much longer. The catalysator was Trump'S cancelling of TTIP and his threats to Asian economies. The Canadian-EU agreement was speeded up as well due to Trump.

Thank you for that. You made us a little bit stronger and mor eunited there. While the US so far is left out. But as the Brits say: splendid isolation!

Especially in an interconnected world with globalised production chains and delivery-on-time without reserve stocks seen as necessary anymore. Get isolated - and lose.

[August]

Just sayin...



In one of the more stunning revelations contained in the report compiled by the Justice Department’s watchdog, former FBI Director James Comey claimed he doesn’t remember the moment he decided – and put down in writing -- that Hillary Clinton had committed crimes.
We know that on or about May 2, 2016, Comey composed a statement summarizing Clinton’s mishandling of classified documents, concluding that she was “grossly negligent.” Those pivotal words have a distinct legal meaning, and are drawn directly from a federal statute, 18 U.S.C. 793(f), which makes it a felony to handle classified documents in a “grossly negligent” manner.
Comey used the exact phrase not once, but twice.
Based on Comey’s finding, Clinton should have faced a multiple-count criminal indictment, since the FBI discovered that she had stored 110 classified emails on her unauthorized, private computer server. Other people had been prosecuted for similar conduct that jeopardized national security in violation of the law. Yet, Comey – despite characterizing Clinton’s actions with the clear language denoting violation of the law - saw to it that no charges were ever brought against Clinton.

Under questioning, Comey admitted to the Inspector General Michael Horowitz that he authored the May 2 statement and penned every word of it himself. But then he offered the implausible claim that “he did not recall that his original draft used the term 'gross negligence,' and did not recall discussions about that issue.”
Comey’s amnesia is preposterous. He would have us believe that, as FBI director, he memorialized in print his decision that the leading candidate for president of the United States had committed crimes, yet later could not recollect anything about the most important decision of his career.
The truth is that Comey well remembers what he wrote, because he participated in subsequent discussions with top officials at the FBI about Clinton’s “gross negligence.” Several meetings were held on the subject and contemporaneous notes prove that Comey was in attendance. Those records show that although Comey was convinced that Clinton was “grossly negligent” in violation of the law, he was determined to clear her notwithstanding. To achieve this somersault and absolve the soon-to-be Democratic nominee, the legally damning terminology would have to be stricken from his statement.





http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/07/23/gregg-jarrett-comey-and-strzok-two-key-players-in-scheme-to-clear-clinton-and-frame-trump.html

[Catfish]

I'm pretty confident that people who oppose him in politics and the media understand they have the power to stir up the welfare class against him through constant bombardments of hysteria and distortions. [...]
Mr. Trump is entirely perfectly personally capable and responsible for creating all the hysteria and distortions, alone.

Sure, there's a lot of things about Donald Trump to laugh about, but I am beginning to come around to acknowledging he is doing a pretty good job.Ok leave laughter and despise out, with what exactly is Trump doing a good job? Alienating allies, starting trade wars, lifting North Korea to international eyesight and 'respect', distorting facts and lying, letting Putin interfere with US politics, elections, espionage and technology, not informing his closest advisers, gagging the press (apart from his court reporting agency Fox or Breitbart). Sometimes I am trying to imagine what had happened, had Obama only remotely tried, what Trump does all the time (what did Trump do when Mueller was serving as a marine?).

Trade wars: So some individuals and big business are now paying a bit less taxes (while paying a lot more on goods and products of any type soon because consumer prices will rise) and amuse yourself seeing all neutral and reasonable people being appalled and peed off due to a buffoon trying to act as a politician?

His policies have caused the EU to come running to Washington and cry "uncle".Does Trump or you really believe that, or is it just Fox news opinion? Let me just say that America is for now out of the deal, for Europe, and also for Japan and South Korea. Trump has made perfectly clear that we cannot depend on the US, not trade, not defence, we cannot trust and expect fair negotiations, we know that he is doing all to "make America great again" at the expense and disadvantage of all others, and he is isolating the US not only in international trading but also in politics.
I can understand every jota of Trump and his egomaniac behaviour, what i cannot understand is any reasonable person supporting and defending that.

quote:
https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEHylSdWmJea2YY4TLkkgf-0qFwgEKg8IACoHCAow1tzJATDnyxUwx4YY?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US%3Aen
Ah, so now no trade war, or a half trade war, or "i never said trade war, you misunderstood me"? Well, this is what i expected. Apart from Europe being a loose aggregation to ease trade and honour certain values, China is one nation disregarding human rights and owning a lot of the US infrastructure, and industry; but maybe they should begin to sell it all, like Russia now does. Bad for your economy? "Wie man in den Wald hinein ruft,..."

Then China, how exactly is trade being unfair to the US? :hmmm:
https://www.cfr.org/blog/right-and-wrong-ways-adjust-us-china-trade-balance
http://econbrowser.com/archives/2018/06/round-two-for-us-china-trade

Europe, so unfair? You installed key markets and all after WW2 of course with the background of buying opinion and connections, getting your foot in the door while keeping the soviets out of, umm parts of Europe. And now that Russia is not the bad guy anymore it all is suddenly so unfair?
So there is Poland, Hungary, Romania, Czech public, Slovakia and lots of other new players after the freedom-for-all-party.
We now even trade with Russia but Trump says instead of buying gas from Russia we should buy it from the US, via liquid gas transport ships, over 5000 miles over the Atlantic? What for?

Unfair to the US? Thinking of software licenses trade surplus of the US, but not only. Detroit. What do you think brought down the US motor industry? It was not competitive, that's all. Do you think the US mines and steel get more competitive with punity tarriffs against the market abroad?
If there are unfair deals all sides we can all sit down and discuss, but not this way.

[Skybird]

The Donald now gags free media and bans a correspondent from Rose Garden becasue she asked questions on Putin that the Donald decided were "unappropriate for the event". Reminds of Putins and erdoghan'S press conferences with their hand-selected questions.

Even Fox News came to align with CNN over this.


If somebody else would have done that here in Europe, many people here already would point fingers and yell about the loss of free speech in Europe.

On the "deal" yesterday: its just evading to mutuallypush each other over the cliff right now. Whats it worth will be seen in the future, and also whether the Donald sticks to it or feels an itching that makes him claiming that it was just a fake announcement. The tarriffs on cars also are something that Europe needs clearness over that they do not come, not now, not in the future.

[Dowly]

His policies have caused the EU to come running to Washington and cry "uncle".It was Trump who invited Juncker to the White House... :roll:

[Onkel Neal]

Juncker had offered during a G7 meeting in Canada earlier this month to make the trip as soon as possible in order to find — if possible — common ground on trade in the automotive sector, which Trump also threatened last week with tariffs. Juncker hoped to offer a comprehensive view of mutual trade in goods and services, investments and profits for the American side, EU diplomats and officials said after the G7 meeting.

Juncker offered to come (https://www.politico.eu/article/us-president-donald-trump-invites-eu-commission-jean-claude-juncker-to-washington-to-talk-trade-tariffs/), Trump extended an invitation, so who got on the plane? :O:

[Catfish]

Juncker offered to come (https://www.politico.eu/article/us-president-donald-trump-invites-eu-commission-jean-claude-juncker-to-washington-to-talk-trade-tariffs/), Trump extended an invitation, so who got on the plane? :O:


https://i.imgur.com/5BtUm6F.jpg


:O:

[u crank]

The Donald now gags free media and bans a correspondent from Rose Garden becasue she asked questions on Putin that the Donald decided were "unappropriate for the event". Reminds of Putins and erdoghan'S press conferences with their hand-selected questions.


I totally disagree with the decision to bar her from the event at the Rose garden. It is not a lifetime ban, just one event. But she wouldn't get any questions for a while.

That being said, this is the typical operating procedure for CNN perfected by Jim Acosta. Their goal is to embarrass the President in front of foreign dignitaries in the name of 'freedom of the press'. The event was between Trump and European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker. The meeting was about trade.

Here are Ms. Collins questions which she asked without being called on.

-Did Michael Cohen betray you, Mr. President?
-Mr. President are you worried about what Michael Cohen is about to say to the prosecutors?
-Are you worried about what is on the other tapes, Mr. President?
-Why is Vladimir Putin not accepting your invitation, Mr. President?

In front of Mr. Juncker at a meeting about trade. CNN. Yep.

[Skybird]

Juncker offered to come (https://www.politico.eu/article/us-president-donald-trump-invites-eu-commission-jean-claude-juncker-to-washington-to-talk-trade-tariffs/), Trump extended an invitation, so who got on the plane? :O:

The politer man of the two with more foresight and patience, maybe...?


Trump kills TTIP, Trump imposes tarriffs, EU wanted TTIP, EU wanted free trade. What did they agree in intention yesterday? No tarriffs, free trade.



It all still stands on feet of clay, however. If Trump'S morning coffee was too cold, he will kill it with one tweet again making Junckers shedding his coffee on his lap.


And not forget this: France opposes the concessions made by Junckers.



Good interview with Gabriel Felbermeyer, an Austrian leading the centre for foreign trade at the IFO institute over here.


https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.welt.de%2Fwirtschaft%2Farticle 179991990%2FTop-Oekonom-Felbermayer-warnt-nach-Einigung-ueber-US-Zoelle-vor-verfruehtem-Jubel.html&edit-text=



The trade policy of populist politicians, of course, looks very different from that of the technocrats who have dominated the scene so far. But threats are part of negotiating between mercantilists - that's how I would characterize almost all trade politicians of old or new schools. No one makes concessions without a counter-deal. In a way, Trump had no other choice: because the US tariffs are lower than the European ones, he had little to offer and sat in negotiations on the shorter branch. With his credible threats to break WTO law, or at least to bend it so that it squeaks, he has gained a better bargaining position.
(...)

How serious is Trump? That's really the big question. But you can already see that he sees the costs of his previous trade policy. Otherwise he would not compensate American soybeans now. His policies are also not popular in many areas of industry; On balance, the companies do not create new jobs. Even the washing machine manufacturer Whirlpool (https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=de&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.de&sl=de&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=http://www.whirlpoolcorp.com/our-company/&xid=17259,15700023,15700124,15700149,15700168,1570 0186,15700191,15700201,15700208&usg=ALkJrhhrDk4UMEhl8vse8f9NIw7F5cGV7A) , who had indeed initiated and enforced tariffs on foreign competitor products, suffers from higher steel prices and suddenly finds protectionism no longer so great. Maybe this realization is slowly infiltrating the White House. As more press reports about relocation, profit warnings et cetera get around, Trump worries about the upcoming Midterm polls. Many influential Republican senators and deputies have also received the message; they mobilize against Trump's customs policy.
(...)

The EU is not China. That's what Mr. Trump should know. One thing is for sure: If the US charged cars with 25 percent import duty, then the EU would fight back counter-duties, and soybeans would certainly be affected. If Trump renounces (https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=de&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.de&sl=de&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://www.vda.de/de/themen/wirtschaftspolitik-und-infrastruktur/handel/handels-und-investitionspolitik.html&xid=17259,15700023,15700124,15700149,15700168,1570 0186,15700191,15700201,15700208&usg=ALkJrhgdAOxqYIbKhuzNUjy5UUAP6BHENw) the car duties (https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=de&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.de&sl=de&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://www.vda.de/de/themen/wirtschaftspolitik-und-infrastruktur/handel/handels-und-investitionspolitik.html&xid=17259,15700023,15700124,15700149,15700168,1570 0186,15700191,15700201,15700208&usg=ALkJrhgdAOxqYIbKhuzNUjy5UUAP6BHENw) , then the soybean oils of the Europeans are off the table. But even if Mr. Juncker is not available as a bean buyer, the market will do it. Chinese tariffs on US soybeans cause China to buy more from South America, displacing European demanders. These then increasingly buy from the USA.
(...)

the EU can not force anyone to buy expensive liquefied gas from America if cheap pipeline gas from Russia is available. Nevertheless, it makes a lot of sense to invest in liquefied natural gas terminals on both sides of the Atlantic. In the end, this may even lower prices for consumers because the new competition will lead Gazprom to a different pricing policy. Fast relief for the US current account will certainly not. Not even if Germany would do without last minute construction of Nordstream 2.

[Dowly]

The Donald now gags free media and bans a correspondent from Rose Garden becasue she asked questions on Putin that the Donald decided were "unappropriate for the event". Reminds of Putins and erdoghan'S press conferences with their hand-selected questions.Yup, and White House's transcript of the Trump - Putin meeting has been edited to remove the question to Putin whether he wanted to see Trump win the election (to which Putin answered 'yes').

At the time of writing this post, the question and answer are still missing from the transcript:
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-president-putin-russian-federation-joint-press-conference/


EDIT: Same with the Kremlin transcript, the question has been removed:
http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/58017


EDIT2: To clarify, Putin's answer can be found in the WH transcript, but the question has been edited from:

President Putin, did you want President Trump to win the election, and did you direct any of your officials to help him do that?to
Q And did you direct any of your officials to help him do that?Which makes it look like it was a follow up question to the previous, which it wasnt.

[Skybird]

Birds of same feather...

[Mr Quatro]

From August quoting a Fox news article:

We know that on or about May 2, 2016, Comey composed a statement summarizing Clinton’s mishandling of classified documents, concluding that she was “grossly negligent.” Those pivotal words have a distinct legal meaning, and are drawn directly from a federal statute, 18 U.S.C. 793(f), which makes it a felony to handle classified documents in a “grossly negligent” manner.
Comey used the exact phrase not once, but twice.

Odd that no matter what Mueller finds in his Russian investigation surely they would not be able to use such words against President Trump ...

Yet Hillary is free to fret about Trump's defeat of her in the 2016 election.

[u crank]

Possible explanation for missing question and answer from the transcript.

The Washington Post explained Wednesday that the error was due to a technical issue and not because of intentionally deceptive editing by the White House.

"President Putin, did you want President Trump to win the election and did you direct any of your officials to help him do that?" Reuters reporter Jeff Mason asked.

"Yes, I did. Yes, I did. Because he talked about bringing the U.S.-Russia relationship back to normal," Putin answered in Russian.

But in the White House transcript, the question is cut off to read "And did you direct any of your officials to help him do that?"


https://townhall.com/tipsheet/laurettabrown/2018/07/25/fake-news-maddow-cnn-falsely-claim-white-house-intentionally-edited-out-a-question-from-transcript-n2503705

The Washington Post is not a Trump friendly news source.

“What happened?” The Post’s Philip Bump asked. “If you watch the videos, it’s pretty clear. At some point in the middle of that question, there’s a switch between the feed from the reporters and the feed from the translator. In the White House version of the video, you can hear the question being asked very faintly under the woman who is translating saying ‘president.’”

“You can hear the same audio in The Post’s feed, starting at about a minute in,” he added. “We did not edit the question out. This is the feed we were provided.”

[Dowly]

^That explains it then.

[mapuc]

You may not like what you read, but:

I most likely going to die laughing if Trump wins the next election
(Seeing the face of those who can't stand Trump-Will be priceless)

AND

I most likely going to die laughing, if they find the evidence they need and impeach Trump
(Seeing the face of those who love Trump, when he are impeached-Will be priceless)

That's my opinion

Markus

[Bleiente]

You may not like what you read, but:

I most likely going to die laughing if Trump wins the next election
(Seeing the face of those who can't stand Trump-Will be priceless)

AND

I most likely going to die laughing, if they find the evidence they need and impeach Trump
(Seeing the face of those who love Trump, when he are impeached-Will be priceless)

That's my opinion

Markus
This is very wise and also formulated far-sighted. :yeah:

As completely different as my vivacious as well as from another point of view perhaps "irrational" appearances on this topic.

[Skybird]

Trump cannot avoid to win in 2020 if the Democrats do not manage to show up with a more liked candidate next time than was the case with their curio collection last time. In principle Trump stands on feet of clay. His strength is not his own strength, but the other party's weakness. The Republican party however he has fully changed, and every possible rival was bitten away by now.



I was early in saying he would possibly win the candidacy, and I also was early when saying he would possibly win the presidency. I am early again in saiyng now that he will win the second term most likely - if it is not his own party staging a coup against him. And that currently is very unlikely.

[August]

https://i.imgur.com/5BtUm6F.jpg


:O:


Which one is you? :)

[AVGWarhawk]

Trump cannot avoid to win in 2020 if the Democrats do not manage to show up with a more liked candidate next time than was the case with their curio collection last time. In principle Trump stands on feet of clay. His strength is not his own strength, but the other party's weakness. The Republican party however he has fully changed, and every possible rival was bitten away by now.



I was early in saying he would possibly win the candidacy, and I also was early when saying he would possibly win the presidency. I am early again in saiyng now that he will win the second term most likely - if it is not his own party staging a coup against him. And that currently is very unlikely.


The democrats have no one of interest willing to run or worth a look. Further, the more idiocy that continues in the liberal news the more ardent Trumps supporters become.

I get the sense that many of the democratic voters are realizing their party is not really in their corner.

Trump will have a second term.

[AVGWarhawk]

You may not like what you read, but:

I most likely going to die laughing if Trump wins the next election
(Seeing the face of those who can't stand Trump-Will be priceless)

AND

I most likely going to die laughing, if they find the evidence they need and impeach Trump
(Seeing the face of those who love Trump, when he are impeached-Will be priceless)

That's my opinion

Markus

Many laughed at the thought of Trump possibly winning the first elections.

Trump will not be impeached. Or should I say, successfully.

[AVGWarhawk]

The Russian investigation is another clever distractions among other distractions.

Every administration it is the same damn hack.

Let's talk about Obama's birth certificate. :doh:

For once, perhaps focusing on the country, would be a great idea.

[Bleiente]

https://i.imgur.com/5BtUm6F.jpg


:O:
The comparison is limp - Trump is just a stupid, screaming chimpanzee, who is struck so hard by the gorilla. :haha:

[Bilge_Rat]

yup, this is the Reason we like Trump. Article in GQ on the Inside story of the release of Otto Warmbier from North Korea. Obama tried to get him home, but the North Koreans just ignored him.


When Trump found out Otto was in a coma, he ordered an american plane to fly to Pyongyang and informed the North Koreans the plane was coming:


When Trump learned of Otto's condition, he doubled down on the order for Yun to rush to Pyongyang and bring Otto home. The North Koreans were unilaterally informed that an American plane would soon land in Pyongyang and that United States diplomats and doctors would get off. “The president was very invested in bringing Otto home,” said a State Department official who was involved in the case and who was not authorized to speak on the record. “Listening to him deliberate on this, he sounded to me a lot more like a dad.” But, the official said, “we were very scared,” for though the North Koreans eventually said the plane would be able to land, no one knew what kind of welcome the Americans would receive on the ground. Yun explained, “The North Koreans said we could send a delegation to see Otto, but that we would have to discuss some of the conditions of getting him out once we got there.” And so Yun raced to assemble a diplomatic and medical team to save Otto.

https://www.gq.com/story/otto-warmbier-north-korea-american-hostage-true-story

the more foreigners complain, the more you know he is on the right track. :up:

[Skybird]

Having a tactic for hiding that one has no plan, does not make the tactic a valid replacement for the non-existing plan.

Its hard to form a plan, a long term vision or whatever, if your awareness span reaches just from one Tweet to the next.


Political success in Trump'S definition: to land the next big headline on twitter. The unhidden joys of triumphant little boys.



Regarding the meeting with Juncker, its probably not so much pressure from the EU that made him changing his mind for the next hours (before he maybe chnages it again), that was not necessary maybe: but the fact that parts of his own voter basis and party and the complete car industry formed up against his tax policy. There are midterm elecitons coming up, and Republican senators started to mind their own office interests. This played into the hands of the Europeans. The US exported tne times as many soy beans to China than Europe, and this now is getting the tax-hammer - as we know, Trump had to promise financial support for his farmers therefore.



The problem is: China cna say it buys this and that from the US, LNG or soy beans, and it does. The EU canot say that, Jnckers ha dno m,andate for promising that, and the commission can make no state and no private companyx buying overpriced American LNG or soy beans, even if it told Washington Europe would do that. Europe is not China. The trariffs on steel and aluminium are sitll in place, the assessment of car imports into the Us continues, the car tariffs are not off the table.


It was just a declaration of intention yesterday. Not even a deal. One bought time in which the conflict is not to be escalated. If Trump plays ball. And more it is not.



I am very hesitent to read anything more into that "deal". I think in a few months, we will see it cooking up once again.

[August]

The comparison is limp - Trump is just a stupid, screaming and ****ting-crapping chimpanzee, who is struck so hard by the gorilla. :haha:




And who is the gorilla in your little fantasy that's doing the striking?

[August]

Its hard to form a plan, a long term vision or whatever, if your awareness span reaches just from one Tweet to the next.




I think this statement more accurately describes the nuts who loose their minds every time he makes a tweet than it does the President who makes them (in order to make the aforementioned liberal crazies go ballistic and show themselves to be the nuts they are).

[Skybird]

You are free to also believe the grass is blue and the sky is green, and water flows upwards and towards the well.

[August]

yup, this is the Reason we like Trump. Article in GQ on the Inside story of the release of Otto Warmbier from North Korea. Obama tried to get him home, but the North Koreans just ignored him.


When Trump found out Otto was in a coma, he ordered an american plane to fly to Pyongyang and informed the North Koreans the plane was coming:


Don't know if he can get away with that with the Turks holding the American pastor but it's good to see he's continuing to try to get our people back from the regimes that are holding them.

the more foreigners complain, the more you know he is on the right track. :up:


:) My personal approval rating of Trump increases with every negative post here.

[August]

You are free to also believe the grass is blue and the sky is green, and water flows upwards and towards the well.


Well duh!, of course I could believe in those things, but I don't.



Except if we're talking about certain types of American lawn seed or the the Aurora Borealis or the Leidenfrost effect, then you would be advised to believe in them too.

[vienna]

That is correct Dowly. I believe, but can't find a source that says that the FISA warrant can gain access to previous communications, emails, phone records etc. Or maybe I just dreamed that.:O:


Umm... a warrant would give access to all pertinent evidence including existing communications, letters, emails, etc., and that would, particularly in the case of emails, include currently archived communications; if the investigators were to find a reference to a relevant prior communication, say a response to a cited exchange, any competent investigator would seek to find the contents of the referred to item, if only to affirm the context of the current item; investigations do not just cover what one finds at the time of the warrants execution, they cover any and all paths of inquiry pertinent to the investigation; by your statement, it appears you would say a suspect in a crime could not have any of his records or communications dated prior to the execution of a warrant scrutinized as means of learning the full extent of his crimes and the possible involvement of others in the commission of the act; imagine how effective anti-terrorism would be under your 'guidelines'...


Possibly. From the linked article....


Quote:
The president’s legal team is concerned that Mueller and his staff might believe witnesses who contradicted Trump’s account, such as former FBI Director James Comey, Giuliani said. That could leave the president vulnerable to a perjury charge, he added.

Trump should not submit to any interviews by Mueller's team. Not without a subpoena, and then fight that. Mueller's friendship with Comey is a glaring conflict of interest.

In my humble opinion. :smug:


... or is the real reason the president's legal team is concerned is something as simple as they know Trump is a pathological liar with such a tenuous grasp of morality and reality he would follow his natural tendencies and just flat out lie and impeach himself? If they were of any certainty of the solidity of their defense, they would not be so terrified of letting loose the Lying Kraken...er, um... Trump to open questioning...




You are free to also believe the grass is blue and the sky is green, and water flows upwards and towards the well.


Oh, and he does, he does... :03:
















<O>

[u crank]

by your statement, it appears you would say a suspect in a crime could not have any of his records or communications dated prior to the execution of a warrant scrutinized as means of learning the full extent of his crimes and the possible involvement of others in the commission of the act;

Wow that's a stretch. I said no such thing. Dowly made a correction of my statement about Carter Page. I agreed with him. I said, quote... "I believe, but can't find a source that says that the FISA warrant can gain access to previous communications, emails, phone records etc."

Explain how you get "it appears you would say a suspect in a crime could not have any of his records or communications dated prior to the execution of a warrant scrutinized" from that. Or am I missing something?

The whole point of that response to Dowly was that although Page was no longer a member of the Trump campaign, he and any one he communicated with at any time, including the President, was under surveillance.


... or is the real reason the president's legal team is concerned is something as simple as they know Trump is a pathological liar with such a tenuous grasp of morality and reality he would follow his natural tendencies and just flat out lie and impeach himself?

:har: No one is arguing that point. At least not me.

On the other hand, why cooperate with Mueller? With the FISA warrants, the Steele dossier, Strzok and Page, Comey and the rest of the clown show the whole thing is a joke. If Mueller thinks he can subpoena the President, let him. I think the fact that he hasn't so far speaks volumes.

[August]

This whole game is going to ramp up over the next few months as the election draws near. Rosenstein and the rest are hoping to run out the clock in hopes of a Democrat controlled congress squashing further inquiry.

[Catfish]

I just hope Trump does not raise the price of popcorn :D:haha:

[Onkel Neal]

As long as it is not imported popcorn, we in the US will be ok :shucks:

[Skybird]

Diagnosed pattern by Thomas Fricke:


>>> What Trump has been doing for a year and a half follows quite clearly a rather typical pattern of right-wing saviors: First, great devastation is diagnosed, enemy images shaped and intensified by (mostly) selective perception; then the great threat is summoned; finally to promise the great salvation by the Me-God-Company. For Trump, the enemies are sometimes the Mexicans, sometimes Islam, sometimes the Chinese, sometimes the North Koreans, sometimes the EU, and sometimes the Germans. Actually, poor America is surrounded by evil. Where all these evils have in common that they threaten the United States in any way. And the only one who can stop that? Is, of course, the Big Dealmaker!
(...)
If the pattern is correct, it is quite easy to explain why Donald Trump used to vilify the North Korean dictator Kim Jong Un (https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=de&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=de&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=http://www.spiegel.de/thema/kim_jong_un/&xid=17259,1500003,15700023,15700124,15700149,15700 168,15700186,15700191,15700201,15700208&usg=ALkJrhhUApcN0J04MO9eLaeQNfD3IZQ2-w) - and then unexpectedly meet him for the great (sham) salvation summit. Similar pattern in the Russian. Or just now with peckish mate Juncker, whose EU he declared a few days ago as an enemy - to now, hallelujah, to find that the EU and the US "love" each other again (which again does not give a nice idea). Thanks to Wunderdealer Trump.

If that's true, Trump's success with its own voters depends heavily on whether and how it succeeds in restarting the scam over and over again - and always finding new (or new) old enemies.Which in turn could explain, regardless of any other pathology, why the redeeming dealmaker becomes so irrationally abruptly the warmonger again, the Germans (or Chinese or who-ever-always) unexpectedly again declared fearsome beings that must be heroically combated. Go back to the start.
Losers do not become winners so fast

Neither punitive tariffs nor a zero duty deal will change much that the US buys much more abroad (and also from Germany) than they sell there themselves. The tariffs on steel imports have even added to the US auto industry because corporations are now paying more for the steel they need to make their cars. The reduction of tariffs would, conversely, and if at all, benefit the Germans as much as the Americans did. Even so, the huge US external trade deficit would not be smaller. It could even get bigger, especially as the reduced taxes cause the Americans to spend more and then automatically import more. The losers of globalization will not be winners in a hurry.

There is little evidence that the displeasure of many Trump voters disappears just because Trump and Juncker have made a deal. All the more suggests that soon follow the next tirades of the US President - and then meets the enemy election again, the Germans and the local economy. Not because there are good reasons, but because someone like Trump needs such beautiful enemies for political success; In the long run the prohibitive high export volumes are only a welcome occasion.<<<


http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/donald-trump-gegen-deutschland-die-eskalation-ist-nur-verschoben-a-1220372.html

[Dowly]

I think this statement more accurately describes the nuts who loose their minds every time he makes a tweet than it does the President who makes them (in order to make the aforementioned liberal crazies go ballistic and show themselves to be the nuts they are).That's a lot of "nuts" and "crazies" thrown around by someone who believes in the 'Deep State' conspiracy theory. :)


EDIT: This must've been awkward -- Mueller and Donald Trump Jr. (in teal shirt) happened to be at the same gate at Reagan National. :haha:
https://i.imgur.com/gJOp2Yu.jpg

[Onkel Neal]

They're probably fishing buddies.

Meanwhile: U.S. Economic Growth At 4.1 Percent For 2nd Quarter

Back in 2017 (1:54)
https://youtu.be/cNPlm9O4q3A?t=1m55s

Bam! Take that, suckas :haha:

[August]

That's a lot of "nuts" and "crazies" thrown around by someone who believes in the 'Deep State' conspiracy theory.


So what are you saying Dowly, that I'm a nut and a crazy? I thought you'd already learned your lesson about personal attacks...

[August]

They're probably fishing buddies.

Meanwhile: U.S. Economic Growth At 4.1 Percent For 2nd Quarter

Back in 2017 (1:54)
https://youtu.be/cNPlm9O4q3A?t=1m55s

Bam! Take that, suckas :haha:




https://scontent.fbed1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/37929958_2036091803068092_4878790416817717248_n.jp g?_nc_cat=1&oh=67dcd38f074c4f753191beec81d2dc27&oe=5BDB8628

[Aktungbby]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/resizer/izAbA3XSkKGxhtA3ZW0qqzXmw0A=/975x0/arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/T4KVBKL734Z4LEHRSVBOZ6SBN4.pnghttps://www.washingtonpost.com/resizer/AUQP8ao7GX0kFooQvJZ2Rq04th0=/975x0/arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/6NGRXKIM4IYPRL44S7BOP63JZA.png

[Skybird]

I love it when weather gets mistaken for climate.


https://voxeu.org/article/stable-genius-estimating-trump-effect-us-economy


Similiar mistakes were made with regard to sinking unemployment rates. The government counted just the total number of employed, and gave just that number. Whether employed people could make a living of their job, not to mention: form reserves to have saving they could live of when they grew old - that was totally ignored. And like in Germany, the US numbers on unemployment suddenly did not look all that great again when these longterm social effects got factored in. The so-called "working poor" have increased. Its getting worse. In Germany as well, btw, same phenomenon here.

[Catfish]

Good for America, but Trump does not deserve being hailed for it.

"In fact, Mr. Trump didn't inherit a fixer-upper economy.
The U.S. economy just entered its 10th year of growth, a recovery that began under President Barack Obama, who inherited the Great Recession. The data show that the falling unemployment rate and gains in home values reflect the duration of the recovery, rather than any major changes made since 2017 by the Trump administration."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-gdp-growth-touted-as-historic-by-trump-is-totally-standard/

@Skybird Stop your posting, you are making way too much sense :haha:

[Onkel Neal]

So what are you saying Dowly, that I'm a nut and a crazy? I thought you'd already learned your lesson about personal attacks...


I think he is saying you used the words nuts and crazies in describing liberals who attack Trump...and that is ironic if you are believing there is a Deep State, which is considered out of the ordinary.

[August]

I think he is saying you used the words nuts and crazies in describing liberals who attack Trump...and that is ironic if you are believing there is a Deep State, which is considered out of the ordinary.


Judging by his post history I seriously doubt that. Remember this is a person who has publicly called for my murder right here in this forum so I tend to see anything he addresses to me as the threat that it probably is.



As for the Deep State I don't believe there is an organized group with membership cards and a weekly newsletter, it's just some partisans, mostly politically appointed creeps, who tried to influence the outcome of the last election and they got caught because the wrong person won.

[Dowly]

Stop with the fake outrage, August. :roll:

[em2nought]

mostly politically appointed creeps, who tried to influence the outcome of the last election and they got caught because the wrong person won.

The old naive me thought that taking a government paycheck should prevent being able to vote while receiving said paycheck. The new me see's that it's much worse than that. :o

Limited Government all the way! :up:

[Bleiente]

Judging by his post history I seriously doubt that. Remember this is a person who has publicly called for my murder right here in this forum so I tend to see anything he addresses to me as the threat that it probably is.


Well - if this is tyrannicide, it has always been a tried and tested means against enemies of the people.

Do not understand your excitement. :haha:

[mapuc]

Here and there I have tried to followed the debate about The President Mr. Trump and I have come to the conclusion that:

Each debater, is doing their best to make the worst of their opponent

Markus

[Catfish]

For UCrank, since you said Trudeau is not your president:
Why they hate Canada, and what it stands for.
Unfortunately it seems the the UK does not come anywhere near Canada, when it comes to those certain points.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMNSQzK883s

[u crank]

For UCrank, since you said Trudeau is not your president:

I hope you realize that was a joke. You know making fun of the snowflakes who said Trump is not my President. And by the way Trudeau is not my president. He's my Prime minister. And he's an idiot.:O:

As for Mr. Heyman. Please. The guy's a Democrat apointed by Barak Obama. From his Wiki page...

Heyman and his wife have been prominent donors to President Obama since 2007 and have been some of his top fund raisers. In 2012, both he and his wife served on Obama’s National Finance Committee tasked with raising funds for Obama's re-election campaign.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Heyman

Nothing like rewarding your supporters with cushy diplomatic appointments. Hardly an impartial voice.:nope:

[Sailor Steve]

Nothing like rewarding your supporters with cushy diplomatic appointments. Hardly an impartial voice.:nope:
True, but that's a time-honored tradition. He wasn't impartial when he was a "prominent donor". Why should he change after the man he helped returned the favor? It's the way things work in Washington (and ever other center of government I've ever heard of).

[Catfish]

@uCrank You mean Steven Harper was better? Or Trump would be? :hmmm:
Trudeau has an agenda alright. He makes some bad decisions, alright. What do you think Trump does? By all means, who do you think is the better man?

It is all more about voting against someone, instead of for some person, and their views. People are sheep when it comes to voting, it is about gut feelings, not facts :nope:

[u crank]

True, but that's a time-honored tradition. He wasn't impartial when he was a "prominent donor". Why should he change after the man he helped returned the favor? It's the way things work in Washington (and ever other center of government I've ever heard of).

Oh I agree with you. I don't expect him to change. The banner at the bottom of the screen says he is the former US ambassador to Canada. It doesn't give his political affiliation or his fund raising efforts on behalf of the person who appointed him which I was merely pointing out.

[Onkel Neal]

Good for America, but Trump does not deserve being hailed for it.

"In fact, Mr. Trump didn't inherit a fixer-upper economy.
The U.S. economy just entered its 10th year of growth, a recovery that began under President Barack Obama, who inherited the Great Recession. The data show that the falling unemployment rate and gains in home values reflect the duration of the recovery, rather than any major changes made since 2017 by the Trump administration."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-gdp-growth-touted-as-historic-by-trump-is-totally-standard/

:


That's interesting. When Trumpo was running for President, he claimed he had ideas that could get the GDP up to 4+% and all his expert critics dismissed this as wishful thinking. They said he was wrong, it couldn't happen. What they did not do is state "yes, the US economy is headed to 4% growth thanks to Obama's policies." They had no clue this economic recovery was coming.

From 2016
Nearly every proposal that Trump has made, whether his tax proposal or his plan to deport the estimated 11 million immigrants who are living in the country illegally, led to a lower estimate of gross domestic product in the Moody's model.

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-business-economy-moodys-report-zandi-2016-6

[Catfish]

^ economics already predicted that at the end of 2017 and in january 2017, probably not certain politicians. In the US there seems to be a trend showing an upturn of economics since around a decade, it is also understood that while certain decisons have an impact on economics, some tend to overstate the degree to which a president has the ability to influence it.
Whatever, the economy is what it is, thanks to ...? We will see how good it fares in the next year(s).

We are currently looking for soy bean recipes, since it looks as we have to eat 10 kilograms per week and person soon :D

[u crank]

@uCrank You mean Steven Harper was better?

I voted for Stephen Harper in every federal election that he was involved in. Hey it's a free country. :D

Trudeau has an agenda alright. He makes some bad decisions, alright. What do you think Trump does? By all means, who do you think is the better man?

I'm sure that you could give an extensive list of things you don't like about Trump. I could do the same about Trudeau. What does that prove?

It is all more about voting against someone, instead of for some person, and their views. People are sheep when it comes to voting, it is about gut feelings, not facts :nope:


I'm not sure what you are saying here. Not every body who voted for Trump voted against something or someone. Same with Trudeau. I have cousins who worship the ground he walks on. They would bear his children. They voted for a guy with a complete lack of experience simply because of who he was. Sound familiar?

I don't like Trudeau because almost every thing he does is based on political correctness and left wing ideology. Is that wrong? Am I not allowed to have a viewpoint simply because it conflicts with yours?

[Skybird]

We are currently looking for soy bean recipes, since it looks as we have to eat 10 kilograms per week and person soon :D
No. Chinese demand is affected from boycotts and/or tariffs and so the Chinese evade to South American producers. This leaves European demand - that already existed anyway - to look at the US producers.

Thats why I expected little problem over this part of the "deal" even if the EU cannot make European states or private companies buying soy beans. They will do it all by themselves, voluntarily, because the Chinese occupy the other producers in the world.

With LNG, its not that bad, too, just that American LNG is priced non-competitively, it is too expensive. But to diversify European energy imports by opening more LNG terminals both in the US and Europe will put Gazprom under pressure, and growing trade between the US producers and European customers will increase the trade volkume and thus put prices under pressure, and so the international price hierarchy could drop there in general, with benefits for the US and Europe as well. We should not allow too huge shares of the energy mix for Europe being delivered by just Russia - and not by just America as well. In fact, Germany is less dependent on both than many other European states, having diversified its energy imports amongst over two dozen nations. The often quoted dependency on Russian gas may exist for real - but its not necessarily Germany being affected severly by this. Other EU states are affected by this dependency far stronger.



Typically, Trump does not mention these, he always attacks just Germany. Over fake news accusations for the most.

[Skybird]

:har:

https://twitter.com/SteveFenberg/status/1022558756519866368/photo/1

[Mr Quatro]

I'm sure that you could give an extensive list of things you don't like about Trump. I could do the same about Trudeau. What does that prove?

I don't like Trudeau because almost every thing he does is based on political correctness and left wing ideology. Is that wrong? Am I not allowed to have a viewpoint simply because it conflicts with yours?

I don't like Trudeau because his veterans come back injured and he won't take care of them :yep:

[AVGWarhawk]

They voted for a guy with a complete lack of experience simply because of who he was. Sound familiar?



Many voted in a Jr senator who had very little experience.

The government of the US is a business that happens to write legislations and oversees laws. As such, being a business, Trump qualifies in this arena IMO.

[vienna]

Wow that's a stretch. I said no such thing. Dowly made a correction of my statement about Carter Page. I agreed with him. I said, quote... "I believe, but can't find a source that says that the FISA warrant can gain access to previous communications, emails, phone records etc."

Explain how you get "it appears you would say a suspect in a crime could not have any of his records or communications dated prior to the execution of a warrant scrutinized" from that. Or am I missing something?

The whole point of that response to Dowly was that although Page was no longer a member of the Trump campaign, he and any one he communicated with at any time, including the President, was under surveillance.
arguing that point. At least not me.

On the other hand, why cooperate with Mueller? With the FISA warrants, the Steele dossier, Strzok and Page, Comey and the rest of the clown show the whole thing is a joke. If Mueller thinks he can subpoena the President, let him. I think the fact that he hasn't so far speaks volumes.





I don't recall I specifically said such a thing, I just extrapolated your comments and speculated on the possible logical extensions of such an idea...


As far as the time frame(s) being covered by the Mueller, et al, inquiries, remember not a few of the subjects had already been on the intelligence communities radars some time (in some cases, quite some time) before Trump even announced his candidacy or, later, took office; some were subjects even before the "dossier" was even a factor (in fact, the head of FusionGPS testified, in Congress, under oath, the FBI told him the main reason they were interviewing him about the dossier was to confirm or substantiate intel the FBI had already gathered on subjects)...


I said it before, if I were a member of an intelligence agency tasked with monitoring foreign influence or infiltration into domestic politics, I rather believe it would be a bit of a bell ringer if there was a very large number of a presidential candidate's staff, officials and/or advisors who had known links to a single, hostile, foreign power and had possible influence over that candidate; that many people with ties to Russia, Crimea, Ukraine, etc., all on a single candidate's staff would certainly raise the question of something being more than a 'coincidence'...








... or is the real reason the president's legal team is concerned is something as simple as they know Trump is a pathological liar with such a tenuous grasp of morality and reality he would follow his natural tendencies and just flat out lie and impeach himself?



:har: No one is arguing that point. At least not me.

On the other hand, why cooperate with Mueller? With the FISA warrants, the Steele dossier, Strzok and Page, Comey and the rest of the clown show the whole thing is a joke. If Mueller thinks he can subpoena the President, let him. I think the fact that he hasn't so far speaks volumes.




Actually, if you think about it, Trump's people may be equally afraid Trump would tell the truth; remember, Trump has a nasty habit of mindlessly speaking and spilling the beans at the oddest moments: recall the fact Trump, two days after firing Comey, in a televised interview with Lester Holt, blithely admitted he fired Comey primarily because of the FBI Russia investigation; the face-palms among the Trump staff must have been epic...


The fact Mueller hasn't subpoenaed Trump thus far speaks nothing. If you carefully observe the conduct of the case so far in the courts, with the guilty pleas already gained and the indictments already filed, there is a foundation being built on the way to the "bigger fish"; Trump may, or may not, be the ultimate target in the Russian meddling probes, but he has very much set himself up as a target on obstruction charges and some questionable actions during his campaign and tenure in the Oval Office; just because someone hasn't been charged yet doesn't mean there is no evidence of possible criminal activity on their part, it just means that, perhaps, the investigators may be seeking to build as tight a case as possible before going public with charges; Trump not yet being subpoenaed does not equate to Trump being 'innocent' nor does it mean he is out of the woods...


I don't like Trudeau because his veterans come back injured and he won't take care of them :yep:

You mean unlike the "quality" care the US VA gives to our returning troops, a substandard of care not helped by Trump's thus far failed appointees to head the VA (one withdrew amid questions over his competency, and another resigned amid ethics scandals)..


Many voted in a Jr senator who had very little experience.

The government of the US is a business that happens to write legislations and oversees laws. As such, being a business, Trump qualifies in this arena IMO.


"Ms. Jones, do you have the resume for the next CEO candidate, a Mr. Donald J. Trump, is it?"


"Yes, sir, here it is..."


"Let's see...


...Four bankruptcies...
...no major US banks will do business with him...
...a history of non-payment of debts, even rather small ones...
...no reputable law firms will represent him due to non-payment of costs and fees...
...has dubious dealings with offshore entities...
...Has the distinction of being one of the very, very few casino owners to have the casino go belly up...
...has a history of setting up charities and, on top of not paying out funds, including those for a disabled veterans charity, but, also, using the charities as a sort of 'money laundry'...
...is deeply in debt and over-leveraged to an extreme...



...hmmm....


Ms. Jones?"


"Yes, sir?"


"Surely this can't be a serious resume for a business CEO?"


"Sir, I'm afraid, in this case, he is serious."


"Well, I would doing a disservice to the shareholders, employees, and patrons of our firm if I were to put Trump in for consideration."


"Yes, sir. What shall I do with his resume?"


"Tell you what: send on to the Washington DC office. Maybe some one over there knows some one who might be interested; Trump may have what it takes for politics, but not for running a corporation..."...










<O>

[AVGWarhawk]

I don't recall I specifically said such a thing, I just extrapolated your comments and speculated on the possible logical extensions of such an idea...


As far as the time frame(s) being covered by the Mueller, et al, inquiries, remember not a few of the subjects had already been on the intelligence communities radars some time (in some cases, quite some time) before Trump even announced his candidacy or, later, took office; some were subjects even before the "dossier" was even a factor (in fact, the head of FusionGPS testified, in Congress, under oath, the FBI told him the main reason they were interviewing him about the dossier was to confirm or substantiate intel the FBI had already gathered on subjects)...


I said it before, if I were a member of an intelligence agency tasked with monitoring foreign influence or infiltration into domestic politics, I rather believe it would be a bit of a bell ringer if there was a very large number of a presidential candidate's staff, officials and/or advisors who had known links to a single, hostile, foreign power and had possible influence over that candidate; that many people with ties to Russia, Crimea, Ukraine, etc., all on a single candidate's staff would certainly raise the question of something being more than a 'coincidence'...





Actually, if you think about it, Trump's people may be equally afraid Trump would tell the truth; remember, Trump has a nasty habit of mindlessly speaking and spilling the beans at the oddest moments: recall the fact Trump, two days after firing Comey, in a televised interview with Lester Holt, blithely admitted he fired Comey primarily because of the FBI Russia investigation; the face-palms among the Trump staff must have been epic...


The fact Mueller hasn't subpoenaed Trump thus far speaks nothing. If you carefully observe the conduct of the case so far in the courts, with the guilty pleas already gained and the indictments already filed, there is a foundation being built on the way to the "bigger fish"; Trump may, or may not, be the ultimate target in the Russian meddling probes, but he has very much set himself up as a target on obstruction charges and some questionable actions during his campaign and tenure in the Oval Office; just because someone hasn't been charged yet doesn't mean there is no evidence of possible criminal activity on their part, it just means that, perhaps, the investigators may be seeking to build as tight a case as possible before going public with charges; Trump not yet being subpoenaed does not equate to Trump being 'innocent' nor does it mean he is out of the woods...




You mean unlike the "quality" care the US VA gives to our returning troops, a substandard of care not helped by Trump's thus far failed appointees to head the VA (one withdrew amid questions over his competency, and another resigned amid ethics scandals)..





"Ms. Jones, do you have the resume for the next CEO candidate, a Mr. Donald J. Trump, is it?"


"Yes, sir, here it is..."


"Let's see...


...Four bankruptcies...
...no major US banks will do business with him...
...a history of non-payment of debts, even rather small ones...
...no reputable law firms will represent him due to non-payment of costs and fees...
...has dubious dealings with offshore entities...
...Has the distinction of being one of the very, very few casino owners to have the casino go belly up...
...has a history of setting up charities and, on top of not paying out funds, including those for a disabled veterans charity, but, also, using the charities as a sort of 'money laundry'...
...is deeply in debt and over-leveraged to an extreme...



...hmmm....


Ms. Jones?"


"Yes, sir?"


"Surely this can't be a serious resume for a business CEO?"


"Sir, I'm afraid, in this case, he is serious."


"Well, I would doing a disservice to the shareholders, employees, and patrons of our firm if I were to put Trump in for consideration."


"Yes, sir. What shall I do with his resume?"


"Tell you what: send on to the Washington DC office. Maybe some one over there knows some one who might be interested; Trump may have what it takes for politics, but not for running a corporation..."...










<O>

Trumps net worth 2018, 3.1 billion. :Kaleun_Salute:

[vienna]

Trumps net worth 2018, 3.1 billion. :Kaleun_Salute:




Most of it inherited and/or the result of very dubious business practices and/or dealings...


BTW, Trump personally claims far more than US $3.1BN, but has, as usual, nothing to back up his claim; in fact, there is wide spread suspicion Trump's 'fortune' may be at most half of the 2018 net worth and does not take into account his very high debt burden...


It should also be taken into account great wealth does not mean someone is a great business man nor are they competent, secure business persons; there are a great number of very rich persons who attained their wealth through fraudulent activities (Ivan Boesky, Michael Milken, and Bernie Madoff, spring to mind) and there are some who have "daddy's wallet" to thank for their own fat wallets...


Let's put it this way: I can be a millionaire because I formulated an idea, worked hard and honestly to put the idea into action and worked hard to attain success, and ensure the well-being of the shareholders, employees, and others related to my endeavors...


...or, I could be a millionaire because I cheated, lied, and bullied my way through life at the expense of others and didn't give a rat's about who I trampled in my path...


One's honest money and the other's sad, weak, pathetic money, probably earned by someone who is, at heart, a snowflake and gets his Pampers in a twist when someone calls his bluffs...


Either way, I know, if I had to appoint a CEO or other sort of leader, with the expectation of quality leadership, which of the two would be my choice...














<O>

[u crank]

I don't recall I specifically said such a thing, I just extrapolated your comments and speculated on the possible logical extensions of such an idea...


Really? These are your words.

by your statement, it appears you would say a suspect in a crime could not have any of his records or communications dated prior to the execution of a warrant scrutinized as means of learning the full extent of his crimes and the possible involvement of others in the commission of the act;


But I said...

I believe, but can't find a source that says that the FISA warrant can gain access to previous communications, emails, phone records etc.

The funny thing about this is I'm saying what you said before you said it.

OK. Time for a drink. I'm buying. :()1:

[vienna]

Really? These are your words.





Still not showing my specific words...





OK. Time for a drink. I'm buying. :()1:






Given Guilliani's performances the past few days, I'd say he beat you to the brews and booze. Really enjoying watching him implode on live TV. Now he's saying collusion is not a crime (technically it's really criminal conspiracy), giving the implication the Trump team has gone from denying collusion to trying to pass it off as a 'non-crime'. See, this is what happens when a really rich guy pisses off all the really competent lawyers and firms and is left with the likes of Guilliani and Cohen. It wasn't so long ago Trump was openly boasting how the best lawyers and firms were fighting to represent him; I can only imagine his surprise when there were no battles for his custom and, particularly, when some of the prominent firms went so far as to publicly announce they had no wish to either represent or be associated with Trump or his problems; this is what happens when you have a documented track record of stiffing lawyers and firms: they tend to get a little sensitive about non-payment for services...












<O>

[u crank]

Still not showing my specific words...


Ok. How about you show them?

[vienna]

Ok. How about you show them?


They've always been there to see...


...and, since you made the accusation, I do believe the burden is on you...
















<O>

[vienna]

The farce that is the Trump administration summed up in one headline:

Pompeo sets conditions for Iran meeting after Trump says he'll meet without preconditions --


http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/399597-pompeo-sets-conditions-for-iran-meeting-after-trump-says-hell-meet





Secretary of State Mike Pompeo listed specific conditions for President Trump to meet with Iranian leaders, hours after Trump said he would not require any preconditions.


...


His remarks came just hours after Trump held a joint press conference with Italian Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte, declaring in front of reporters that he would meet with Tehran with “no preconditions.”

“It’s good for the country, good for them, good for us and good for the world. No preconditions. If they want to meet, I’ll meet,” Trump said.


...


CNBC noted that Pompeo in May outlined 12 specific conditions that would needed to be met for the U.S. to hold talks with Iran after Trump decided to withdraw the U.S. from the Iran nuclear deal.



...







Makes you really wonder who, if anyone, is really in charge and just how fractured the Executive Branch under Trump has become...
















<O>

[u crank]

They've always been there to see...


...and, since you made the accusation, I do believe the burden is on you...


Sure. No problem.

Umm... a warrant would give access to all pertinent evidence including existing communications, letters, emails, etc., and that would, particularly in the case of emails, include currently archived communications; if the investigators were to find a reference to a relevant prior communication, say a response to a cited exchange, any competent investigator would seek to find the contents of the referred to item, if only to affirm the context of the current item; investigations do not just cover what one finds at the time of the warrants execution, they cover any and all paths of inquiry pertinent to the investigation; by your statement, it appears you would say a suspect in a crime could not have any of his records or communications dated prior to the execution of a warrant scrutinized as means of learning the full extent of his crimes and the possible involvement of others in the commission of the act; imagine how effective anti-terrorism would be under your 'guidelines'...


My 'statement' that I can only assume you are referring to is...

That is correct Dowly. I believe, but can't find a source that says that the FISA warrant can gain access to previous communications, emails, phone records etc. Or maybe I just dreamed that.:O:

[vienna]

Sure. No problem.



My 'statement' that I can only assume you are referring to is...


Ah, I see...

However, I did not say you "did" say those words; I said you "would" say as in an extrapolation, not a quotation; also, I am at fault for not being clearer; the intent would have been clearer if I had used the generic "one" instead of "you", as in:




by your statement, it appears one would say a suspect in a crime could not have any of his records or communications dated prior to the execution of a warrant scrutinized as means of learning the full extent of his crimes and the possible involvement of others in the commission of the act; imagine how effective anti-terrorism would be under your 'guidelines'...




I do apologize for the confusion...


I'll just leave this little bit behind...



https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-3jf5jCH8J48/WAbGltb4GnI/AAAAAAABh-I/Wxw-6unG3p0W_Goz-nb6-FaZurh_oA93gCLcB/s400/Trump%2Bbusiness%2Bfailure.jpg


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-pKIi4S1ORyU/VcqRWL-fBbI/AAAAAAAAiDc/BrRsUykFtvE/s1600/2015-08-10-423625b6_large.jpg










<O>

[u crank]

Ah, I see...

However, I did not say you "did" say those words; I said you "would" say as in an extrapolation, not a quotation;

Hmm. Well that is the part that I don't understand. Why would I say or even think that? My statement was pretty clear. My intent was pretty clear.

..also, I am at fault for not being clearer; the intent would have been clearer if I had used the generic "one" instead of "you",

I think the intent would have been crystal clear if instead of using "you" or "one" you had used "I" as in I, Vienna. It's your extrapolation not mine.:D

Anyway, I'm happy.

I'll just leave this little bit behind...

Ok. We or at least I get it. You hate Trump. I'm not that sharp so it took me a while to put it all together but I get it.:O:

That being said, I would ask one question. Would you be happier if Hillary Clinton was sitting in the Oval Office?

[vienna]

Ok. We or at least I get it. You hate Trump. I'm not that sharp so it took me a while to put it all together but I get it.:O:

That being said, I would ask one question. Would you be happier if Hillary Clinton was sitting in the Oval Office?


Most likely not, particularly since I didn't vote for either of them, but, then again, the Presidency wouldn't be the foundering shipwreck it currently is...


To be clear: I don't actually hate Trump. I said so long ago in an earlier post: I just didn't really care about him at all before he was president. He was just another "celebrity" most "famous" for just being "famous", rather like the Kardashians, and some of the other gossip fodder one sees and hears about on the periphery of real news of real import. When Trump is out of office, I'll go back to generally ignoring him as I did before. Trump has no real value other than to himself and those who follow all that pop culture blah-blah. As long as he is in the Oval Office and making a farce of our government and causing very real harm to the country and it's conduct, well, then, I do reserve the right to point out his many, many failings and corruptions. I do not suffer fools lightly...


And the previous sentence should give you a hint about how I would feel about Hillary in the White House...













<O>

[u crank]

Most likely not, particularly since I didn't vote for either of them, but, then again, the Presidency wouldn't be the foundering shipwreck it currently is...


I guess that is where we would disagree. Trump says some dumb things , he stretches the truth, he lies, and sometimes he is out of his league. But I don't believe for a minute that he is this monster that Pravda, oops I mean CNN/MSNBC/NYT/WP makes him out to be. For me Trump needs to cross a certain line to be that monster. Trump has yet to weaponize the IRS, the FBI and the DOJ to surveil and attack his political opponents. So far he only uses Twitter. I'm OK with that.

As for Clinton. Well here's a person who was extremely careless with top secret information for a personal gain. She had that private server for only one reason. Pay to play and the Clinton Foundation. The missing 30,000 emails would tell that story. The question is, would that behavior have continued at the White House? I'm going to say yes and probably ramped up. After all .... she'd be the President. She'd have Comey, Brennen, Clapper etc. to watch her back. It would be corruption on steroids.

[vienna]

I guess that is where we would disagree. Trump says some dumb things , he stretches the truth, he lies, and sometimes he is out of his league. But I don't believe for a minute that he is this monster that Pravda, oops I mean CNN/MSNBC/NYT/WP makes him out to be. For me Trump needs to cross a certain line to be that monster. Trump has yet to weaponize the IRS, the FBI and the DOJ to surveil and attack his political opponents. So far he only uses Twitter. I'm OK with that.

As for Clinton. Well here's a person who was extremely careless with top secret information for a personal gain. She had that private server for only one reason. Pay to play and the Clinton Foundation. The missing 30,000 emails would tell that story. The question is, would that behavior have continued at the White House? I'm going to say yes and probably ramped up. After all .... she'd be the President. She'd have Comey, Brennen, Clapper etc. to watch her back. It would be corruption on steroids.


I do happen to think gross incompetency does cross a serious line, particularly when it impacts an entire nation and its system of government. Maybe I've just gotten used to having someone in the Oval Office who has at least the basic knowledge of how the nation operates; maybe I've gotten use to being led by persons who have more than a tenuous grasp of reality; maybe I've gotten used to being led by persons who do not cause unnecessary problems because they don't have a clue; maybe I don't like the idea of a preening, buffoonish idiot, being the face of our nation...


Maybe I think we deserve better...


But, hey, maybe that's just me...


One item in your response has touched on something the Trumpers have gotten up on their hind legs and howled and whined about for a long time, how Hillary was foolish and careless as Secretary of State with her emails, etc. Somehow, I never hear their anguished cries over the fact Trump has eschewed using high encryption and protected cellphones to conduct official business, some of which is highly sensitive; Trump has been advised by the intelligence agencies and other members of his own staff about not using an unprotected cellphone, but, as he has with other commonsense advice, he has ignored them and continues to use his vanilla cellphone, not exactly an action to be considered as careful and secure; even Obama, who preferred to use a favorite Blackberry model of cell phone had his phone modified to meet security needs and standards...


Who knows, maybe Trump is worried Putin will have a more difficult time keep tabs on him... :D



EDIT:


Unkess I'm mistaken, the long mentioned 30,000 emails, have, in fact, been accounted for; I seem to recall some news accounts of how the 'missing' emails were either found on other servers or their contents were found as part of responses to those emails...











<O>

[MaDef]

Trump has eschewed using high encryption and protected cellphones to conduct official business, some of which is highly sensitive; Trump has been advised by the intelligence agencies and other members of his own staff about not using an unprotected cellphone, but, as he has with other commonsense advice, he has ignored them and continues to use his vanilla cellphone, not exactly an action to be considered as careful and secure; even Obama, who preferred to use a favorite Blackberry model of cell phone had his phone modified to meet security needs and standards...
That's a disingenuous assertion don't you think?

The president has accepted every device and process related to mobile phones recommended by White House Information Technology,” the official said

[Skybird]

https://www.businessinsider.de/china-us-trade-deficit-could-be-misleading-2018-6?r=UK&IR=T



"How much value does a country or a company add to the process is what counts," Shvets writes. "But our current trade statistics do not reflect value but rather flows."
Deutsche Bank economists Zhiwei Zhang and Yi Xiong came to a similar conclusion earlier this year, writing in a note to clients that the US-China trade balance is "clearly misleading." They pointed out that it doesn't account for hundreds of billions of dollars in sales made by US companies run abroad, also known as subsidiaries.
US subsidiaries sold $223 billion goods and services in China in 2017, according to a Bureau of Economic Analysis survey. Those weren't counted toward the US's goods and services trade deficit with China, which was a record $375 billion last year.
And a lapse in data can also be seen at the company level, Zhang and Xiong said. Apple generated $48 billion in revenue from China in 2016, mostly from iPhone sales. But, according to trade data, China imported only $1 million of cell phones from the US that year.
"From an international trade perspective, iPhone sold by Apple's Chinese subsidiaries are not counted as imports," Zhang and Xiong wrote. "But from an economic and financial perspective, iPhone is a US product, and the US benefits the most from it."



In a German article I just read about this, they explained that the real surplus may be just one tenth of the number claimed by Trump.


In a similiar fashion the Us tzries to make Europe beleive that the EU has a big surplus in exports into the US. Truth is that many branches of for the uS high relevancen namely IT services and non-product/non-material services in general are being excluded form the math of Trump, and that if these would get factored in, the export surplus still would be a surplus - but it would be turning into an American one.

[u crank]

I do happen to think gross incompetency does cross a serious line, particularly when it impacts an entire nation and its system of government.

Hmmm.... It would seem that if that statement were true the US government would have collapsed, the economy would be in ruins and the zombie apocalypse would be well under way. Did I miss something?

As I have said I don't like Trump's style. But some of his policies I agree with.

Nixing the Iran deal and Paris Climate deal get A+ marks. So does the reduction in corporate tax and deregulation. There are lot's of others. Despite all the naysayers the world did not end. No nuclear war, the stock market did not crash and Nancy Pelosis' 'Armageddon' has yet to occur. If you watch or read the Pravda shills you would expect that the end is coming any day now.

Here's the thing that I have learned about politicians. Don't judge them by how they dress, who the hang out with or even what they say. The most important thing for me is what they accomplish and whether they do things that are illegal or unconstitutional. His predecessor claims, with a straight face, that he had a scandal free administration. If Trump does the illegal and unconstitutional things that Obama did, if he has people in the highest appointed positions who have lied and done illegal things then I would be the first in line to condemn him.

[Catfish]

Hmmm.... It would seem that if that statement were true the US government would have collapsed, the economy would be in ruins and the zombie apocalypse would be well under way. Did I miss something?
It does not collapse so quickly, the president is not almighty. He has signed a lot of decretes that will not immediately show their impact.


Nixing the Iran deal and Paris Climate deal get A+ marks.By whom? From you? Unfortunately for you and other Trump lovers it is not the opinion of the rest of the world. I agree that China or North Korea give a rat's ass for the world climate, human rights or torturing for that matter, i just thought the US would be more intelligent, and Canada? Well there must be a reason almost all laugh at you.

So does the reduction in corporate tax and deregulation.Ah, so you think that companies paying less taxes will push the economy and eventually trickle down. Where did i hear this before..

[...] If Trump does the illegal and unconstitutional things that Obama did, if he has people in the highest appointed positions who have lied and done illegal things then I would be the first in line to condemn him.I guess it is still not enough for you eh? :rotfl2:

[AVGWarhawk]

BTW, Trump personally claims far more than US $3.1BN, but has, as usual, nothing to back up his claim; in fact, there is wide spread suspicion Trump's 'fortune' may be at most half of the 2018 net worth and does not take into account his very high debt burden...


<O>

For someone with widespread suspicion with little to back it up, you sure know an awful lot. :hmmm:

[u crank]

It does not collapse so quickly, the president is not almighty. He has signed a lot of decretes that will not immediately show their impact.

Really.

The U.S. economic outlook is healthy according to the key economic indicators. The most critical indicator is the gross domestic product, which measures the nation's production output. The GDP growth rate is expected to remain between the 2 percent to 3 percent ideal range. Unemployment is forecast to continue at the natural rate. There isn't too much inflation or deflation. That's a Goldilocks economy.

All in all, an excellent time to reduce debt, build up your savings, and increase your wealth.

https://www.thebalance.com/us-economic-outlook-3305669


By whom? From you? Unfortunately for you and other Trump lovers it is not the opinion of the rest of the world. I agree that China or North Korea give a rat's ass for the world climate, human rights or torturing for that matter, i just thought the US would be more intelligent, and Canada? Well there must be a reason almost all laugh at you.

Both of these deals would have cost a lot of money. The Iran deal was flawed. Both deals were done without congressional approval. Barak Obama was not elected king or dictator. That is the reason that Trump was right to get out of both.

I guess it is still not enough for you eh?

Not sure what that means. can you explain?

[Mr Quatro]

Here's the thing that I have learned about politicians. Don't judge them by how they dress, who the hang out with or even what they say. The most important thing for me is what they accomplish and whether they do things that are illegal or unconstitutional. His predecessor claims, with a straight face, that he had a scandal free administration.

I like that, plus the one thing I've learned about politicians is that if you wait long enough they come and go.

I was worried about Obama's last six (6) months in office when the Lord comforted me with these words, "I was still God when Nixon was president" :yep:

[Hawk66]

https://www.businessinsider.de/china-us-trade-deficit-could-be-misleading-2018-6?r=UK&IR=T





In a German article I just read about this, they explained that the real surplus may be just one tenth of the number claimed by Trump.


In a similiar fashion the Us tzries to make Europe beleive that the EU has a big surplus in exports into the US. Truth is that many branches of for the uS high relevancen namely IT services and non-product/non-material services in general are being excluded form the math of Trump, and that if these would get factored in, the export surplus still would be a surplus - but it would be turning into an American one.

Skybird, does not matter, you know it's all fake news like all facts, science and so forth which Trump does not like....I just wait for the tweet claiming that earth is a disc^^

[vienna]

That's a disingenuous assertion don't you think?


No more so than using a quote from August's favorite source the ubiquitous "unnamed official" and an official from within Trump's own circle, at that. I had to look up the source of your quote, since you didn't provide one; the quote dates back to circa May 22-23, 2018; since then, there have been various reports citing Trump's continued use of unsecured, personal cell phones to conduct official Government business, including one instance that not only caught his own staff by surprise, it also was in contravention of Federal Law covering Federal records:


Aides caught unaware of Trump’s personal phone call to Trudeau: report --

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/395932-aides-caught-unaware-of-trumps-personal-phone-call-to-trudeau-report





White House aides, according to a senior U.S. official who spoke to the Post, were totally unaware that the call had even occurred.

“We had no idea what happened,” the official said.

The White House would later put out a short readout of the call based on Trump's memory between the two leaders, according to the Post.

...


A much lengthier Canadian readout from the call stated that the pair discussed dairy trade between the two nations, which Canada said “heavily favors the U.S.”

...

White House aides urged Trump to route future calls with world leaders through the White House Situation Room, as required by federal records law, according to the Post, and there are no other confirmed calls between Trump and world leaders on his personal cellphone.



So, aside from being a possible, if not actual, breach of national security, Trump is also in violation of Federal records law. And, I don't know about you, but I am not comfortable in the fact matters of national affairs are left to be documented by dependence on the dodgy memory of a 72 year old of questionable mental stability and veracity...









<O>

[Mr Quatro]

there have been various reports citing Trump's continued use of unsecured, personal cell phones to conduct official Government business, including one instance that not only caught his own staff by surprise, it also was in contravention of Federal Law covering Federal records:

Aides caught unaware of Trump’s personal phone call to Trudeau: report --

So, aside from being a possible, if not actual, breach of national security, Trump is also in violation of Federal records law. And, I don't know about you, but I am not comfortable in the fact matters of national affairs are left to be documented by dependence on the dodgy memory of a 72 year old of questionable mental stability and veracity...
<O>

You should bring this before the MSNBC/CNN investigators ASAP due to they are looking for something to catch President Trump on anyway. They are tired of investigating the Hillary private stuff for sure :D

[em2nought]

Hmmm.... It would seem that if that statement were true the US government would have collapsed, the economy would be in ruins and the zombie apocalypse would be well under way. Did I miss something?

Hell, that didn't even happen under Jimmy Carter. :03:

[vienna]

...

If Trump does the illegal and unconstitutional things that Obama did, if he has people in the highest appointed positions who have lied and done illegal things then I would be the first in line to condemn him.

Then I would venture to wish you a speedy recovery on your apparent laryngitis and/or selective mutism... :haha:


The many occasions where Trump's actions have been found to be outside of the law and/or constitutional, e.g., some of his Executive Orders (his first two regarding his travel ban being obvious examples), Executive Orders being something he railed against during his campaign, but now finds irresistible, by the way; the slew of appointees (at a current rate of some 40% of the total he has appointed, calling into serious question not only his judgement but, also the quality of persons with which he surrounds himself) who have been hastened out the doors for legal violations, ethical violations, and, yes, even lying...

I think your requirements have been met and in bulk...

I have a sort of litmus test when it comes to deciding if Trump and his minions have steeped over a line or committed gross offense: I just consider what Trump, et al, have done and, if I know the Far-Right would be up on their hind legs howling if Obama or Clinton did the same, well then, whatever was done must be wrong in so many ways...


Again, my condolences on your debility...









<O>

[vienna]

For someone with widespread suspicion with little to back it up, you sure know an awful lot. :hmmm:


Well, you see, I have this really bad habit of actually viewing various, and varied, reports and remembering their contents. Here's a bit of back up (oddly and surprisingly easy to find by just typing "donald trump actual worth" into Google):


Trump’s Net Worth Is Far Less Than He Claims, Trump Organization Revenue Suggests (11/11/17) --

https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-trump-organization-net-worth-715546




Last year the Trump Organization reported nearly $9.5 billion in revenues, but public filings by President Donald Trump suggest that the company actually earned between $600 and $700 million in 2016. Crain's, a leading New York business publication, claimed that the Trump foundation had been reporting an inflated revenue since at least 2010. The publication moved the company from the number 3 spot on the list to number 40.

“It was obviously very important to Donald to have his company on the top of the list...but the numbers that he presented are just flagrantly untrue,” Crain’s senior reporter Aaron Elstein told NPR.






Is Donald Trump Not Really a Billionaire? (05/31/16)--

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/05/donald-trump-net-worth


Trump lied to me about his wealth to get onto the Forbes 400. Here are the tapes. (04/20/18) --

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/trump-lied-to-me-about-his-wealth-to-get-onto-the-forbes-400-here-are-the-tapes/2018/04/20/ac762b08-4287-11e8-8569-26fda6b404c7_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.2b157b021e3e


Why Donald Trump's net worth is probably a lot less than you think - and it keeps falling (07/17/18) --

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/donald-trumps-net-worth-probably-11856762 --



...and there are a lot more, you just have to look them up...


Of note in a lot of the article regarding his net worth, almost no mention is made of his debt and its nature. Trump has a very heavy debt load and some of his debt is shrouded in questions about the sources of the lending and their conditions, notably Trump's loans through Deutsche Bank (a necessity since US banks won't do business with Trump due to his history of loan defaults and/or bankruptcies); there have been reports the DB loans were informally underwritten by Russian interests tied to Putin, something yet to be fully verified and another reason why Trump might be so skittish about releasing his tax returns, etc...


So, the information is all out there; I mean, Hannity and/or Fox News aren't the only sources available in the real world...













<O>

[u crank]

The many occasions where Trump's actions have been found to be outside of the law and/or constitutional, e.g., some of his Executive Orders (his first two regarding his travel ban being obvious examples), Executive Orders being something he railed against during his campaign, but now finds irresistible, by the way; the slew of appointees (at a current rate of some 40% of the total he has appointed, calling into serious question not only his judgement but, also the quality of persons with which he surrounds himself) who have been hastened out the doors for legal violations, ethical violations, and, yes, even lying...

Please lets not talk about amateur hour and confuse it with the pros.

I think your requirements have been met and in bulk...

I disagree. But let me know when Mike Pompeo gets caught with a home brew email server in his basement and then his associates mislead and obstruct investigations, and hid or destroy evidence.

Or when Trump has the Internal Revenue Service and other federal agencies illegally used to target and harass the President’s political enemies.

Or when Jeff Sessions oversees the illegal sale of arms to Mexican traffickers for purposes that to this date have not been adequately explained.

Or when John Bolton goes on five different Sunday talk shows on the same day and tells the same lie.

Or when Jeff Sessions is being held in contempt of Congress for inhibiting the investigation of administration scandals.

Or when Daniel Coats lies while testifying before Congress.

Or when Trumps' Department of Justice spies on reporter James Rosen and the Associated Press.

Or when the Trumps' Veterans Administration had a system in which servicemen lost their lives to bureaucratic incompetence and medical neglect, and then falsifies records to cover it up.

Or when Trump violates the U.S. Constitution by authorizing assassinations and drone strikes to kill American citizens abroad without due process.

Then there is the biggie. Let me know when the Trump administration uses the FBI and the DOJ to spy on the next Democratic Presidential candidate and his campaign members for a phony Russian collusion charge. Remember when Bernie Sanders went to Russia for his honeymoon. Pretty suspicious.

Sorry, it is not even close. Yet.

But don't worry, Trump has six more years to catch up.

[August]

Please lets not talk about amateur hour and confuse it with the pros.



I disagree. But let me know when Mike Pompeo gets caught with a home brew email server in his basement and then his associates mislead and obstruct investigations, and hid or destroy evidence.

Or when Trump has the Internal Revenue Service and other federal agencies illegally used to target and harass the President’s political enemies.

Or when Jeff Sessions oversees the illegal sale of arms to Mexican traffickers for purposes that to this date have not been adequately explained.

Or when John Bolton goes on five different Sunday talk shows on the same day and tells the same lie.

Or when Jeff Sessions is being held in contempt of Congress for inhibiting the investigation of administration scandals.

Or when Daniel Coats lies while testifying before Congress.

Or when Trumps' Department of Justice spies on reporter James Rosen and the Associated Press.

Or when the Trumps' Veterans Administration had a system in which servicemen lost their lives to bureaucratic incompetence and medical neglect, and then falsifies records to cover it up.

Or when Trump violates the U.S. Constitution by authorizing assassinations and drone strikes to kill American citizens abroad without due process.

Then there is the biggie. Let me know when the Trump administration uses the FBI and the DOJ to spy on the next Democratic Presidential candidate and his campaign members for a phony Russian collusion charge. Remember when Bernie Sanders went to Russia for his honeymoon. Pretty suspicious.

Sorry, it is not even close. Yet.

But don't worry, Trump has six more years to catch up.


Well put. It really illustrates the double standard at work here.

[Mr Quatro]

Please lets not talk about amateur hour and confuse it with the pros.



I disagree. But let me know when Mike Pompeo gets caught with a home brew email server in his basement and then his associates mislead and obstruct investigations, and hid or destroy evidence.

Or when Trump has the Internal Revenue Service and other federal agencies illegally used to target and harass the President’s political enemies.

Or when Jeff Sessions oversees the illegal sale of arms to Mexican traffickers for purposes that to this date have not been adequately explained.

Or when John Bolton goes on five different Sunday talk shows on the same day and tells the same lie.

Or when Jeff Sessions is being held in contempt of Congress for inhibiting the investigation of administration scandals.

Or when Daniel Coats lies while testifying before Congress.

Or when Trumps' Department of Justice spies on reporter James Rosen and the Associated Press.

Or when the Trumps' Veterans Administration had a system in which servicemen lost their lives to bureaucratic incompetence and medical neglect, and then falsifies records to cover it up.

Or when Trump violates the U.S. Constitution by authorizing assassinations and drone strikes to kill American citizens abroad without due process.

Then there is the biggie. Let me know when the Trump administration uses the FBI and the DOJ to spy on the next Democratic Presidential candidate and his campaign members for a phony Russian collusion charge. Remember when Bernie Sanders went to Russia for his honeymoon. Pretty suspicious.

Sorry, it is not even close. Yet.

But don't worry, Trump has six more years to catch up.

Wow! Great post did you do that from memory?

[Skybird]

Focus and going of this thread is a prime argument for why general elections for just everybody should be forbidden.

[u crank]

Wow! Great post did you do that from memory?

:haha:

No, the Obama administrations' misdeeds are easy to find via Google.

[Bleiente]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/resizer/izAbA3XSkKGxhtA3ZW0qqzXmw0A=/975x0/arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/T4KVBKL734Z4LEHRSVBOZ6SBN4.pnghttps://www.washingtonpost.com/resizer/AUQP8ao7GX0kFooQvJZ2Rq04th0=/975x0/arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/6NGRXKIM4IYPRL44S7BOP63JZA.png
Nice and suitable. :haha:

[Bleiente]

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/trumps-praesidentschaft/trump-will-die-weltordnung-zerstoeren-na-und-15712379.html

Trump is just a screeching idiot with a dead cat being nailed to his stupid head every morning. :har:

[Platapus]

I am a little worried about this coming weekend. I have to buy groceries and I don't have a grocery ID. I hope I can get one in time.

[Bleiente]

https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Datenschutz-US-Regierung-arbeitet-an-Antwort-auf-die-DSGVO-4122969.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/07/27/trump-administration-is-working-new-proposal-protect-online-privacy/?utm_term=.50d58d3d9308


:hmmm:

[Bleiente]

http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/gesellschaft/a-g-sulzberger-new-york-times-chef-stellt-sich-gegen-donald-trump-a-1220915.html


:up:

[Skybird]

Bleiente:


https://translate.google.com/?hl=de


Did you know that a couple of people here either are German or are internationals who understand German - but that the vast majority here does not speak German? ;)


Chasing a German article through Google Translator before posting the link, may be useful. ;) Just copy the URL of the German original into the text window, and process it. You must not copy the text itself. Then post the resulting Google URL.



But check the text after the translating process. Often, Google does a very good job now in succeeding, at least to let people understand what is meant. But sometimes the results are so terrible and misleading that its not worth it to post it. So: check it.

[u crank]

http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/gesellschaft/a-g-sulzberger-new-york-times-chef-stellt-sich-gegen-donald-trump-a-1220915.html

Funny you should mention the New York Times. They have had some bad press lately.

The New York Times announced Monday it hired left-wing writer Sarah Jeong, who has a long history of racist tweets, to be the lead technology writer for the newspaper’s editorial board. Jeong repeatedly posted racist statements via her Twitter account.

http://thefederalist.com/2018/08/02/new-york-times-editorial-board-just-hired-virulent-racist/

The announcement of Jeong’s hiring comes after The New York Times fired its previous brand new hire for the same technology writer position last February because she “retweeted a racial slur.”

Far from merely retweeting a single offensive post, Jeong likened an entire race of people to “goblins,” compared their conversations to animals urinating, and declared that skin color entirely determined whether an individual was awful or not.


:down:

[Catfish]

Hah double standards and hypocrisy! And Fox of all accusing others :haha:
As if the far right is not openly racist and sexist, and now all cry about one woman who bites back?
Ever heard of counter-trolling? "Racist against white people", my heart bleeds.

If she had wrote that in Fakefox about blacks you'd applaud her. Lmao.

"She shas been an obvious target for the right wing internet mobs that have been especially active of late, launching organized smear campaigns against left-leaning celebrities by weaponizing their old jokes and tweets"

Bullying tactics of the far right have left their mark. She is now just imitating the rhetorics of her harassers, hard to take for the latter eh?
What those right wingers not understand is humour and sarcasm, which is exactly what Jeong used :up:

[u crank]

Hah double standards and hypocrisy! And Fox of all accusing others :haha:
As if the far right is not openly racist and sexist, and now all cry about one woman who bites back?
Ever heard of counter-trolling? "Racist against white people", my heart bleeds.

Hmm. Where to start? You're missing the point here and so is your fellow countryman. (BTW Bleiente, I read your posts before you deleted them). In the United States there is this thing called the First Amendment. Freedom of speech. Ms Jeong has a right to say whatever she wants even if it borders on hate speech. If I were an American I would defend that right to do so.

But that is not the story here. This isn't about Sarah Jeong. This is about The New York Times. And that was the subject of my post. This so called "newspaper of record" hired someone who made racist comments. She said “kill more men” and “kill all the men”. She made anti police comments. The Times not only hired her but defended her as did many left wing publications.

I don't know about you but I think we have crossed a line here.

If she had wrote that in Fakefox about blacks you'd applaud her. Lmao.

Excuse me. You better think about what you are saying before you say it.

What those right wingers not understand is humour and sarcasm, which is exactly what Jeong used.


So now racist comments are considered comedy? You know I really fear where the left is going. As a person who once considered himself a 'classic liberal' I now see nothing on the left I can agree with. The left is moving left at breakneck speed. It's disturbing. This hiring by the Times is a perfect example of the insanity that effects left wing , mainstream thought. I fear it will not end well.

[Mr Quatro]

Can former president Obama be the VP?

I see Biden and Bernie running against President Trump in the 2020 election which will probably start in just three more months after the 2018 mid term elections.

So I was just wondering if Obama could make a come back via the VP route?


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/biden-launches-lgbtq-family-acceptance-campaign-as-you-are/ar-BBLC75c?OCID=ansmsnnews11

Former President Barack Obama and Vice President Joe Biden decided to pay them a visit

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/biden-launches-lgbtq-family-acceptance-campaign-as-you-are/ar-BBLC75c?OCID=ansmsnnews11

The Biden Foundation announced Tuesday it was kicking off its new "As You Are" campaign, which aims to raise awareness about the significance of family in accepting LGBTQ young people.

[Catfish]

The alt-right internet mobs are attacking left-leaning celebrities with their own jokes. Oh the irony.
I see that this is completely lost on you.
The far right has come out of its holes and spreads hate and violence all over the 'net and you tell me you are worried "where the left is going"?
Some seems to have completely lost their mind! This new right bull has become socially accepted, even here. Anyone remember Takeda, and when and why he left?
I tell you something, if i lived in the US i would now indeed get me a gun for defense, or leave.

Here, read some stuff, and then tell me what you would answer if they threaten to kill you.
http://boards.4chan.org/pol/

And you should read this, instead of Fox News, Breitbart and The daily caller, which all have zero acceptance outside of the US.
https://www.inverse.com/article/47754-a-racist-new-york-times-reporter-the-alt-right-is-red-pilling-sarah-jeong

But Republican political figures like Mike Huckabee has leveraged this new supposed anti-white threat to further attack the “fake news media” and support President Donald Trump, who would surely love an opportunity to paint The New York Times as hypocritical. Right wing sites like The Daily Caller and Breitbart News have seized on “reverse racism” with delight. Trolls continue to harass Jeong, and other accounts in defense of her.
With any luck, the internet will become acquainted enough with 4chan trolls that it can dismiss their scare tactics before it gets sucked under."

[Bleiente]

Yes - that's the old / new fashion.
The Nazis and fascists are reaching for power again. This not only affects the US, here in Europe we also have various movements that actually seem threatening.

Trump is a narcissistic sociopath - a racist and demagogue.
However, he does not belong to the typically intelligent sociopaths, rather he acts as if he had a stroke three times a day.

Hence my excitement and my extreme demeanor on this topic.
Anyone, such as Trump, who tramples on "democracy" must not be allowed to hide behind its laws.
Such people belong differently... treated "appropriately".


:arrgh!:

[u crank]

The far right has come out of its holes and spreads hate and violence all over the 'net and you tell me you are worried "where the left is going"?

Yes I am because they use to, in my lifetime, be counted on to be a voice of reason and peaceful resolution. Not any more. And of course there are bad eggs on both sides. But I have noticed a remarkable change in the last little while in left wing/liberal/progressive thought. The left used to believe in free speech. Not any more. Someone might get their feelings hurt. If they don't like what you say they shout you down. If they don't like the politics of a speaker invited to a university they have him banned. They make no arguments and don't want to debate. They need their safe spaces and their coloring books. Young people on the left have become almost entirely indoctrinated. They call people Nazis but have no clue what that is. They wave flags of Communist nations at rallies but don't know what the Gulag is. It is worrisome to say the least.

And they have become increasingly violent. It's ok to punch a nazi. Well maybe in some countries but not in a Democracy with a rule of law. Antifa has become the thug army of the left. Dressed in black and wearing masks the anti- fascists have become the fascists. Yea I am worried and you should be too.

Here, read some stuff, and then tell me what you would answer if they threaten to kill you.
http://boards.4chan.org/pol/

I don't read or pay the slightest attention to anybody named Anonymous on an Internet site. Could be an 11 year old sniffing airplane glue. If those sites are an excuse for hate speech then that person has a problem.

And you should read this, instead of Fox News, Breitbart and The daily caller, which all have zero acceptance outside of the US.
https://www.inverse.com/article/4775...ng-sarah-jeong

Jokes on you pal. I don't read any of those sites. Again you missed the point and refuse to address it. It's not about Sarah Jeong. It's about the NYT and their acceptance and excuses for hate speech. Are you excusing it as well?

[Bleiente]

Yes - that's the old / new fashion.
The Nazis and fascists are reaching for power again. This not only affects the US, here in Europe we also have various movements that actually seem threatening.

Trump is a narcissistic sociopath - a racist and demagogue.
However, he does not belong to the typically intelligent sociopaths, rather he acts as if he had a stroke three times a day.

Hence my excitement and my extreme demeanor on this topic.
Anyone, such as Trump, who tramples on "democracy" must not be allowed to hide behind its laws.
Such people belong differently... treated "appropriately".


:arrgh!:


https://www.tagesspiegel.de/medien/journalismus-in-den-usa-jeff-bezos-und-donald-trump-machen-washington-post-erfolgreich/22875328.html :shucks:

[Platapus]

Can former president Obama be the VP?



No. No one can be vice president who is intelligible for the office of president. Obama is no longer illegible as he was already elected and served two full terms.

[Buddahaid]

Getting a bit out of hand here folks or the sarcasm is not clear enough.

[Catfish]

Yes, @Bleiente would you please stop that. First no name calling, and then Ucrank sure does not deserve it :yep:

[Catfish]

[...] In the United States there is this thing called the First Amendment. Freedom of speech. Ms Jeong has a right to say whatever she wants even if it borders on hate speech. If I were an American I would defend that right to do so.

Right. Not only in the US b.t.w.. I think all this started in 1789. Also in France.

But that is not the story here. This isn't about Sarah Jeong. This is about The New York Times. And that was the subject of my post. This so called "newspaper of record" hired someone who made racist comments. She said “kill more men” and “kill all the men”. She made anti police comments. The Times not only hired her but defended her as did many left wing publications.This is of course about Sarah Yeong, which is why i wrote all this and provided a link you do not bother to read. She has b.t.w. apologized meanwhile. Yes, the New York Times defended her. Big deal. Regarding crossing a line this began much earlier.


"The issue at hand was the political correctness, or lack thereof, of Jeong’s tweets, which openly mocked white people. But what the conversation has largely failed to take into account is the fact that the situation was precipitated by an alt-right trolling campaign that has target other liberal-leaning media and entertainment figures who have come under fire recently for past social media offenses. And that in itself is more worrisome than any series of tweets."

Yes, it indeed is about mocking the right and those who vomited their alt-right-wing bile in all these forums. And the thing is that she for once just used all this hate speech jargon all those right wingers heaped upon her, and which is so en vogue among the 'right' since Trump became president. Make no mistake, the whole world has been witness as to what has happened since then, and i would not blame it on the left. This is direct Trump hate speech, spreading everywhere, and of course triggering reactions.

For Trump anything non alt-right is "left" and open to smear and hate, from neutral to liberal to common sense. This is why someone should stand up and call a spade a spade.

That anyone who is not on the alt-right side suddenly feels molested and attacked, and now bites back shocks you? What the hell do you expect, all suddenly shut up and listen to, and believing in, Fox News? This is an attack against intelligence, common sense, taste, logic and science. This is not about the left once more, it is about everyone's reaction with an open mind and common sense being attacked by this unconcealed, blunt and brazen racism. The US is not alone with it of course, we see it in Poland, Hungary, Romania, Germany and other countries.

You know I really fear where the left is going. As a person who once considered himself a 'classic liberal' I now see nothing on the left I can agree with. The left is moving left at breakneck speed. It's disturbing. This hiring by the Times is a perfect example of the insanity that effects left wing , mainstream thought. I fear it will not end well.Oh yes "the left". It is moving lefter every second. The sky will fall. Only that what happens here has nothing to do with the "left", but with common sense, taste and anyone who happens to dislike racism, sexism and hate speech being made socially acceptable by the loony right, from Fox to Breitbart to The daily caller to Bannon to Trump and his supporters.


Coming to my accusation of you would applaud Sheong if she had written this in Fox News about black people, i take that back. Sorry.

[Skybird]

Marx for president. Another misunderstood "lefty" who was not left at all.

"Every election is sort of advance auction sale of stolen goods." - "Democracy is a form of worship. It is the worship of Jackals by Jackasses." - Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free than Christianity has made them good." - H.L. Mencken

In the end, states are just plundering syndicates basing on the law of the jungle and the law of the strongest, run by the stronger mob who declares it his "right" to steal and to blackmail. Politicians are just the parasites who make the rest of the mob rally around their flag.

"Every decent man is ashamed of the govenrment he lives under." - H.L. Mencken

[Bleiente]

Yes, @Bleiente would you please stop that. First no name calling, and then Ucrank sure does not deserve it :yep:
Then I misunderstood this.
@u_crank
I apologize sincerely and in all form.


:salute:

[Jimbuna]

Getting a bit out of hand here folks or the sarcasm is not clear enough.

Yes, @Bleiente would you please stop that. First no name calling, and then Ucrank sure does not deserve it :yep:

:ping::ping::ping:

[Jimbuna]

US President Donald Trump has issued a strong warning to anyone trading with Iran, following his re-imposition of sanctions on the country.

"Anyone doing business with Iran will NOT be doing business with the United States," the president tweeted.

Some re-imposed sanctions took effect overnight and tougher ones relating to oil exports will begin in November.

Iran's president said the measures were "psychological warfare" which aimed to "sow division among Iranians".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45098031

I've a feeling the EU will not be happy with this :hmmm:

[Catfish]

The EU has already made clear it will not support the withdrawal, or support/follow the sanctions, or impose their own.
Companies being affected by US bans will be protected as UK's minister for the Middle East already said. Some german companies like Daimler-Benz have indeed stepped back from dealing with Iran.

That said, i have my own opinion about this.. this Iran deal was non-binding, and Obama essentially paved the way for Trump to withdraw from it. So technically Trump does not rip apart a real deal, since the latter never existed. But even with a deal, Trump could have unilaterally withdrawn from it, this has already been done numerous times before, by other US presidents. (b.t.w. here is a list of treaties that have been broken, or never ratified by the US (https://qz.com/1273510/all-the-international-agreements-the-us-has-broken-before-the-iran-deal/))

I am not sure how far Iran's influence and molesting Israel goes, maybe the idea of forcing Iran to its knees works out.. but first this has to be done mercilessly for quite a while (speaking of 20+ years), and second as usual it is the civilians who already have to suffer, not the clerical government.

[u crank]

Then I misunderstood this.
@u_crank
I apologize sincerely and in all form.


:salute:

Thank you and I appreciate that. No hard feelings. :salute:

[u crank]

This is of course about Sarah Yeong, which is why i wrote all this and provided a link you do not bother to read. She has b.t.w. apologized meanwhile. Yes, the New York Times defended her. Big deal. Regarding crossing a line this began much earlier.

We seem to disagree there. My original post was about the New York Times and their decision to hire her. Here is the thing. I support Ms. Yeong's right to say anything she wants. And I support the Times right to hire anyone they want. That doesn't mean they can't be criticized for it. And they should be. It was a dumb thing to do. It was a very political thing as well. They admit that they knew about the tweets but hired her anyway. That to me speaks volumes about their political stance. I'm not criticizing the stance, but rather the decision to hire someone with extreme views.

There is a couple of double standards at play here. The first one is that had this writer been a conservative and had said similar things about black people and women the outrage would have been never ending. But in the politically correct world of identity politics white people are an easy and safe target.

Then there is the case of Kevin D. Williamson. Williamson is an excellent writer with conservative view points. He is also a never Trumper. This spring he was hired by the left leaning Atlantic. Some of his past opinions about abortion and the death penalty were dug up. Atlantic Editor-in-Chief Jeffrey Goldberg bowed to outrage from the left and fired Williamson before he ever wrote an article.

That anyone who is not on the alt-right side suddenly feels molested and attacked, and now bites back shocks you? What the hell do you expect, all suddenly shut up and listen to, and believing in, Fox News?


I have a hard time understanding some things you say. Who is the alt-right and how much influence do you think they have in mainstream conservative thought? I think you would be surprised to find that it is almost negligible. Go to some of the American conservative online magazines and look for yourself. These are the sites I frequent almost daily. National Review Online, The Federalist, The American Spectator, and RedState/Townhall to name a few. Maybe I am missing something but I see no overt opinion in these publications that would be considered alt-right. Maybe the definition needs clarification. I find that these publications have a balanced opinion on average. They are far more representative of conservative thought than Fox News or Breitbart. National Reviews' senior editor Jonah Goldberg and contributer David French are anti Trumpers. Editor Rich Lowry has been critical of Trump and has felt the backlash.

Oh yes "the left". It is moving lefter every second. The sky will fall. Only that what happens here has nothing to do with the "left", but with common sense, taste and anyone who happens to dislike racism, sexism and hate speech being made socially acceptable by the loony right, from Fox to Breitbart to The daily caller to Bannon to Trump and his supporters.

I feel that you are casting a very wide net here. That being said my personal opinion is that the left/progressives/Democrats are in a bind. They have no clue about what to do about Trump and have become hysterical and their only recourse is to become more extreme. It is noticeable. Example...Former Presidents Clintons' and Obamas' views on immigration and gay marriage from just 10 years ago would not stand in todays Democratic party. They would be run out of town. There can be no diversity of opinion. That's not the way to get elected. Obama had 8 years to learn that lesson but he didn't. The result is...President Trump.

Coming to my accusation of you would applaud Sheong if she had written this in Fox News about black people, i take that back. Sorry.

Thank you and I appreciate that. I think you are a good guy and I enjoy our 'friendly discourse'. Peace. :salute:

[Jimbuna]

Further sanctions against Russia over the suspected use of chemical weapons with the lokelihood of more in ninety days should Russia fail to give reliable assurances that it will no longer use chemical weapons and will allow on-site inspections by the United Nations.

Fat chance of that happening I reckon.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45126207

[Skybird]

Companies being affected by US bans will be protected How?

:ping:

The EU is completely impotent here.The law they activated, is just empty posing.

The difference between trade volumina with the US, and Iran, is a factor around 37.

The EU law even threatens penalties against companies obeying the American sanctions. That is more planned economy then, and does not differentiate between security-relöevant and -irrelevant business deals. Its pointless in its core.

The EU can protect nobody here. It just practices meaninglessness here.

And that is good in this case. The Iran "deal" never should have been signed in the first, was just another Obamarian daydream. The Europeans would be willing to trade their own skin away, if that helps to keep their precious illusions.

[Catfish]

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-iran-nuclear-usa-germany/measure-to-shield-eu-firms-from-iran-curbs-starts-on-tuesday-germany-idUKKBN1KR0XK

https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2018/05/20/562359/Bruno-Le-Maire-France-EU-Iran-sanctions

Trump successfully bullies moderate and reformist Rouhani, so there will soon be a hardliner government back at the helm, in Iran. Polls show that the majority of Americans were in favour of the Iran deal. Does Trump think China or Russia will not sell technology to the Iran, if the West turns away completely?

Those right-wing falcons always have those easy solutions for everything, but wouldn't it be better to keep a foot in the door along with having some influence and insight, instead of driving Iran into the arms of Trump's good friend Putin?

That the US withdraws does not mean the JCPOA plan is dead though, since there are other nations involved.

[Catfish]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/07/science/trump-elephant-trophy-hunting.html

[Skybird]

In the main Trump bullies an Iran that is one of the biggest financiers of Islamic global terrorism, the biggest source of unrest and war export in the region, and that despite all the honey it pours into European ears nevertheless is after the nuclear bomb.


I do not know whether Trump knows all this indeed, or cares - or just finds the grain by random chance after picking around blindly. The effect is what counts. Iran must be isolated and contained, its nuclear ambitions strictly controlled, its support of terrorism punsihed.



The UN watchdog's role is fully compromised since long, so it canot be trusted.


To call Rouhani a "reformer" and a "moderate", always was just an euphemism to me, a Western expression of more wishful thinking. He has always been unshaken in supporting the Iranian bomb program. He just learned from Allah who is claimed to be the greatets deceiver of all, and he is not stupid enough to tell the Europeans about it all the time.

[Jimbuna]

I was in Iran (Khorramshahr) for a month way back in 77, the Shah had not long left by then and even back then I noticed a change in attitude for the worse toward the west.

[Catfish]

[...] He has always been unshaken in supporting the Iranian bomb program. He just learned from Allah who is claimed to be the greatets deceiver of all, and he is not stupid enough to tell the Europeans about it all the time.

Bullsh. You are almost as bad informed as those brexiteers. Just what you feel about something does not hold water on close inspection. You can think about Rouhani what you want, but he sure is no 'hawk'.

"President Rouhani says religion forbids pursuit of WMDs"
"Generals told to let diplomacy do its work"
"Rouhani says Iran will not acquire nuclear weapons 'on principle'

President Hassan Rouhani also urged Iran’s military leaders to let diplomacy prevail in dealing with potential foreign threats, in a clear reference to efforts to end the nuclear dispute and decades of hostile relations with the west"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/01/rouhani-iran-nuclear-weapons-principle

The next iranian president will not be that shy for sure.

The US has once more broken a treaty, if it was a real deal or not does not matter. Trump just tries to undo everything Obama did, it is a childish personal thing. If Trump's talks with North Korea have shown anything, it is that you need the bomb to be accepted.
If the deal falls apart, Iran could theoretically restart its nuclear program pretty quickly. Do you think Israel can sleep better now with China and Russia at the backdoor.


quote Jim Buna:
I was in Iran (Khorramshahr) for a month way back in 77, the Shah had not long left by then and even back then I noticed a change in attitude for the worse toward the westAfter the Shah? SAVAK anyone? You don't say? :rotfl2:
How repressive was the Shah's regime in Iran before 1979 (https://www.quora.com/How-repressive-was-the-Shahs-regime-in-Iran-before-1979)

"Some verifiable history — the CIA [UK operation BOOT, US operation AJAX (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat)), operating out of that U.S. embassy in Tehran in 1953, maliciously and illegally overthrew a relatively democratic and liberal parliamentary government, and with it the 1951 Time magazine man of the year Prime Minister Mohammad Mossadegh, because Mossadegh insisted that Iran’s oil wealth enrich Iranians, rather than foreign corporations. The CIA installed a dictatorship run by the Shah of Iran who quickly became a major source of profits for U.S. weapons makers, and his nation a testing ground for surveillance techniques and human rights abuses. The U.S. government encouraged the Shah’s development of a nuclear energy program. [...]." And so on.

http://www.newclearvision.com/2013/01/28/waking-up-in-tehran/

From 2013: An unhappy 60th birthday - The CIA coup of 1953 still resonates in Iran (https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2013/8/18/1231387/-An-unhappy-60th-birthday-The-CIA-coup-of-1953-still-resonates-in-Iran-Operation-Ajax-remembered)

I do not say that what came afterwards was any better for the civilian people of Persia, but all this sure did not help the western nations win much sympathy.

[Skybird]

Double standards of the NYT.



https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fpolitik%2Fausland% 2Fhate-speech-die-doppelstandards-der-new-york-times-a-1222373.html&edit-text=

[Skybird]

As I said, Catfish. Rouhani pours right that honey into Westerner's ears that they want to hear. But before he emerged victorious in elections, in the background he always was a strong supporter of an Iranian nuclear bomb. That is true for practically all candidates in the past couple of election races. Another one would not have gotten the allowance of the guardians council and the religious elite anyway.


You just fall for words like a mouse falls for spam. The porblem is that peope, like you tend to have ENDLESS patience - until facts are created and nothing can be done anymore. With Iran you defend a terror exporter, religious fanatic - and now you want to give the time and opportunity he needs to aquire the bomb and harden the rule of the ayatollahs by easing the pressure from the street: by allowing them economic success and stability.

[Catfish]

You better inform yourself a bit about the history of Persia/Iran, and why things are as they are, now. I can even recommend some good books about all this.
If Rouhani really wants the bomb (i'm sure the generals want it, and the coming-up hardliners) you should wonder where he only got this idea :hmmm: :haha:

[Skybird]

Oh, I know Iran a bit myself, thanks. I even have several months of live first hand experience there. Its the one country in the Islamic world where I stayed longer than in any other. ;)

[vienna]

https://cdn.foliomag.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/theweekjuly2018.jpg


















<O>

[Skybird]

I wonder whether the constant detoriation of relations between Turkey and the us over the past 10+ years may escalate in Turkey leaviong or beiogn thrown out of NATO.


Mind you, it started long before Gülen or Syria and the Kurds, but back in 2003 when Turkey denied US forces to use US bases in Turkey as launching platforms for operations in the war in Iraq. The same quarrel rose again in 2014 over the US attacks on IS in Syria, and was refused to let fall silent again in 2016.


Today the Donald has annoucned a doubling of tariffs on Turkish steel and aluminiumm making them 50 and 25%. With erdoghan provng to be an economic dilletantee and the Lira in free fall, this could become costly for Turkey - and the ECB region as well who once again is invited to invest Euros for nothing but a megalomaniac illusion (= supporting the Lira).



I say let Turkey fall. Economic and financial troubles are what could bring people to the streets and can kick Erdoghan out of office, maybe even trigger a coup that this time then was not most likely staged by Erdoghan himself. Since the military however has lost its function as guardian of a now dead Kemalist constitgutional order, that is somewhat unlikely, however. Too many AKP believers now have hijacked the armed forces at too many ranks and levels.



The only setback is that the EU and especially the Germans stand ready to once again sacrifice their own fincial interests for the sake of supporting a de facto hostile regime spitting them in their face at every opportunity. The damage of Trump's decision will go at the cost of bills to be paid in Euros, not dollars.



Meanwhile the ordinary German blockhead cares for nothing more than his next vacation at the Turkish reviera. :arrgh!:

[Mr Quatro]

The president has a problem with Turkey ... He borrowed a whole lot of money to build twin tower there ... not sure how much, but I heard billions of USD.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/04/trump-turkey-erdogan-conflict-interest/


And there’s also another troubling layer to this story: Trump’s business ties to Turkey create a conflict of interest. That’s according to Trump himself. As Mother Jones reported in November, Trump mentioned his Turkey-related conflicts in 2015 during a conversation with Steve Bannon, who was then the executive chairman of Breitbart News. (Bannon would go on to become Trump’s chief strategist.)

On Bannon’s radio show, Breitbart News Daily, Trump said on December 1, 2015, “I have a little conflict of interest ’cause I have a major, major building in Istanbul. It’s a tremendously successful job. It’s called Trump Towers—two towers, instead of one, not the usual one, it’s two.”

Trump was speaking truthfully. He had a vested interest in smooth relations with Ankara. And he owed Erdogan a solid. In 2012, Erdogan presided over the opening ceremony for the Trump Towers.

[Mr Quatro]

Meanwhile the ordinary German blockhead cares for nothing more than his next vacation at the Turkish reviera. :arrgh!:

I like that observation :up:

[Catfish]

@ Skybird: not true. Though some blockheads exist everywhere..

Turkey tourism stats 2018
https://www.statista.com/chart/10270/tourism-in-turkey/

"While European holidaymakers and business people (notably the British and Germans) are still reluctant to pay a visit to Turkey, visitor numbers nevertheless increased from January to May 2017 by 16.3 percent when compared to the same time frame of the previous year. However, Russian citizens are increasingly making up for the declining tourist numbers from other countries"

[Skybird]

What's up, Catfish? German tourism to turkey took a dive in past years, but after one year of serious decline almost fully swung back meanwhile. First the Russians moved in in numbers, than the Germans forgot their anger of the season before, and returned as well.

[Bleiente]

Hahaha ... the incest gang Trump has something to say again:
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/donald-trump-neues-buch-the-death-of-truth-ueber-luegen-des-us-praesidenten-a-1221943.html


:har:


Ich revidiere, diese Volks- und Vaterlandsverräter namens TRUMP gehören allesamt auf Lebenszeit eingesperrt. :03:

[Skybird]

Bleiente, you really do not give the impression to be an adult being if you hide this kind of infantile phrasing behind German wording just to escape the moderators that way.



And posting endlessly German articles without caring for sending them through Google translator first, as I suggested one or two pages earlier, does not help you to leave a better impression.



It starts to become really annoying. Translate your stuff - I usually do it myself when posting German texts, too. And stop that infantile German little-kiddy-phrasing. You do not look good that way, this I can tell you as somebody who is fluent in German.



Stay classy. Behave grown-up.


P.S. This is answering to your original post that you meanwhile have edited slightly. Not that your German replacement at the end now really is that much better.

[Bleiente]

So ein Quatsch @Skybird.
Wer sich wirklich für diese Artikel interessiert, wird ohne weiteres den besagten Translater bemühen.


Und wenn ich hier erst sagen muß, wass tatsächlich für die öffentliche Ordnung notwendig wäre, dann ist ja schon alles verloren.


Und in diesem Sinne - das macht nichts, unser Aussterben ist längst beschlossene Sache und darum könnt Ihr gerne weiter "dümmlich" debatieren. :shucks:

[Bleiente]

Hui - ich habe wieder so einen schneidigen Avatar... :haha:


Na uuups... :()1:

[Skybird]

English, please. Dont expect others to do the translating job that would be yours to do. This is an international forum. The owner is American. The forum language is English. Most people here do not understand German. Only some do.

And when people do not have a translation of your links, they will hardly know (or care) whether they should be interested in them or not. Why should they care to paste and copy YOUR stuff then. You could as well post in Kyrillic.

The rest of your opinion is just that - your opinion. One can word an opinion in a mature fashion, or in the angry bigmouthing of a little kid stomping its feet when mummy does not give it candies. Its simple, the choice is yours.

However, the impression you leave with others is not your choice, but theirs. And with posts like that, in a foreign language and then voicing such infantility, you will hardly be taken as a grown-up.

Just saying so, since it is not the first time you do like this. It has become a pattern. You have avoided moderation so far only because the mods in this forum - Steve, Jim and Neal - do not speak German.

BTW, Neal is your host here. Serve him some respect - by respecting his official forum language.

[Bleiente]

Да, капитан... :o

[Skybird]

When an 11 year old hacks into a voting results website and then says wisely into the camera: "It should be way more secure because Russians are out there, people!", then all I can do is set up a wide grin.


https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-45154903

[Catfish]

What's up, Catfish? German tourism to turkey took a dive in past years, but after one year of serious decline almost fully swung back meanwhile. First the Russians moved in in numbers, than the Germans forgot their anger of the season before, and returned as well.

Yes you are right, my bad. Seems the numbers climbed again.. for some reason searching for Turkey tourist numbers +2018 Google kept coming up with 2016 :06:

[Jimbuna]

English, please. Dont expect others to do the translating job that would be yours to do. This is an international forum. The owner is American. The forum language is English. Most people here do not understand German. Only some do.

And when people do not have a translation of your links, they will hardly know (or care) whether they should be interested in them or not. Why should they care to paste and copy YOUR stuff then. You could as well post in Kyrillic.

The rest of your opinion is just that - your opinion. One can word an opinion in a mature fashion, or in the angry bigmouthing of a little kid stomping its feet when mummy does not give it candies. Its simple, the choice is yours.

However, the impression you leave with others is not your choice, but theirs. And with posts like that, in a foreign language and then voicing such infantility, you will hardly be taken as a grown-up.

Just saying so, since it is not the first time you do like this. It has become a pattern. You have avoided moderation so far only because the mods in this forum - Steve, Jim and Neal - do not speak German.

BTW, Neal is your host here. Serve him some respect - by respecting his official forum language.

@ Bleiente...I'd suggest you take the words of wisdom offered to you and post in English from this point forward.

Failing that, post in the German section of the forum: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/forumdisplay.php?f=252

TIA

[Bleiente]

English, please. Dont expect others to do the translating job that would be yours to do. This is an international forum. The owner is American. The forum language is English. Most people here do not understand German. Only some do.

And when people do not have a translation of your links, they will hardly know (or care) whether they should be interested in them or not. Why should they care to paste and copy YOUR stuff then. You could as well post in Kyrillic.

The rest of your opinion is just that - your opinion. One can word an opinion in a mature fashion, or in the angry bigmouthing of a little kid stomping its feet when mummy does not give it candies. Its simple, the choice is yours.

However, the impression you leave with others is not your choice, but theirs. And with posts like that, in a foreign language and then voicing such infantility, you will hardly be taken as a grown-up.

Just saying so, since it is not the first time you do like this. It has become a pattern. You have avoided moderation so far only because the mods in this forum - Steve, Jim and Neal - do not speak German.

BTW, Neal is your host here. Serve him some respect - by respecting his official forum language.
Energetic contradiction - here the original text has to be published by the respective newspaper on this topic.
Everything else is fraud and / or arouses the suspicion of a fraudulent intention.
Any other assumption would be childish and taken lightly.


Edit: One should question all sources, especially the supposedly trustworthy one. :03:

[Skybird]

Legally, we may not post ANY written piece or picture anymore without agreement by the copyright holder. Thats why it is betetr to post a link.


Post a link to the Google translation, and a link tot he poriginal source. Google translator can have just the weblink to the translated site being posted to have access to the translation, the full text must not be posted.


Whether that is legal, I am not certain, I fera not. It has become quite extreme, a bit perverse, and quite counter-productive by now. But I do it like that myself nevertheless: posting a link to the translated website, and maybe also to the original Gerkan soruce. The design of the website remains after the translation, so it is obvious who the original source was.


Morally, that is okay, imo. Legally, by the fineprint - well, who knows...


A week ago or so, a farewell photo album for a Kindergarten was handed out to the kids leavign the Kindergarten, with all faces of all other kids being blackened on all photos except the face of the kid for whom the individual album was. Which renders the whole thing pointless, of course. But thats how it goes nowadays.


Too much complexity, and too many mines lying around as if you could do one step without stepping onto one. Too many people making their living by trapping others over essentially nothing. I would not want to be young again these days. Not in these times.


---


In Sweden two consenting adults cannot even have sex anymore without formalising their mutual agreement in any form. They even have an app for it now, recording the spoken "Yes" by both partners. Before, and maybe still so, I am not certain, a woman who claims after intercourse that she did not feel well with the event afterwards, could use that as a legal basis to sue the male partzner over rape allegations. Just "because she did not feel well". The claim is treated by Swedish law as a proof for the guild of the man (I think it does not work the other way around, the man cannot claim to have been raped if he feels bad after sex) - it is him needing to prove his innocence now, he is no longer assumed to be innocent until his guilt has been proven.



Ridiculous (in this feminist) deformations were we are heading with our hyper-sensibility and hyper-concerns. Mervyn Peake could not have imagined a more absurd rule of rites for his Titus books.


Eh, US politics, okay. Well... LOL

[Dowly]

In Sweden two consenting adults cannot even have sex anymore without formalising their mutual agreement in any form. They even have an app for it now, recording the spoken "Yes" by both partners. Before, and maybe still so, I am not certain, a woman who claims after intercourse that she did not feel well with the event afterwards, could use that as a legal basis to sue the male partzner over rape allegations. Just "because she did not feel well". The claim is treated by Swedish law as a proof for the guild of the man (I think it does not work the other way around, the man cannot claim to have been raped if he feels bad after sex) - it is him needing to prove his innocence now, he is no longer assumed to be innocent until his guilt has been proven.



Oh BS. Two consenting adults can continue to have sex just the same as before the law (which made it rape if both parties didn't consent verbally or physically), and the burden of proof remains on the prosecution.



Did you not, at any point writing that, stop and think "Holy crap, this is so stupid it can't be real"?

[skidman]

Did you not, at any point writing that, stop and think "Holy crap, this is so stupid it can't be real"?

*sigh* Unfortunately he never does.:nope:

[Skybird]

Oh BS. Two consenting adults can continue to have sex just the same as before the law (which made it rape if both parties didn't consent verbally or physically), and the burden of proof remains on the prosecution.



Did you not, at any point writing that, stop and think "Holy crap, this is so stupid it can't be real"?
When I hear a Swedish journalist and an inernational criminal law expert discussing it and they describe things like I repeated it, then I am not in the seat to claim that they must be wrong becasue I think the Swedish habits seem to be a bit - well, however you call them. after all, this is the country that was the first to ban cash money, that has companies whose employees are n ot feelign alarmed baout getting chipped for profane reasons, that protects its Jewish minority from muslim mobbing by telling Jews to not behave Jewish in public since that would be a provocation to Muslims, that acts openly hostile and underhanded to Israel, and that tells its native citizens the country does not belong to them but belongs to those foreigners that will come to Sweden in the future. Its a country that boasts quite stupidly to run the first "feminst" foreign policy, whatever that should be, and that completely ducks away from the Muslim riots and destruction of state sovereignty and rule of law in certain now famous regions and city districts.




No, too impressed I am not. Plus i dislike Swedish TV crime movies with their omnipresent social and moral lecturing, I do not like neither Abba nor Ikea, I would not volunteer to let every stranger in the world know about my financial income situation like it is mandatory in Sweden, and their apparent preference for cold colours with overdoses of blue subtones, appearing cold and cool to my eyes, is not my thing, too; and lastly the Swedish language import of using the "Du" even towards complete strangers where the "Sie" would be demanded in German social codex is somethign i do not take friendly either. By German standards of social behaviour, its "prollig".


I think Sweden will not see me as a visitor any time soon.



BTW, the absurd law situation was deswcribed already at the time whe assange fell victim to this obvious plot. It was then when for the first time ever Western media - a few of them at least - pointed finger at the absurd laws and the implicaitons that they could trigger. And back then they still were not as detoriated as they are now.


:ping:


But I like the Gripen, and the CV-series of IFVs. Very.

[em2nought]

Plus i dislike Swedish TV crime movies with their omnipresent social and moral lecturing

Don't try watching "Law & Order: Special Victims Unit" on US TV. :haha:

[Mr Quatro]

When I hear a Swedish journalist and an inernational criminal law expert discussing it and they describe things like I repeated it, then I am not in the seat to claim that they must be wrong becasue I think the Swedish habits seem to be a bit - well, however you call them. after all, this is the country that was the first to ban cash money, that has companies whose employees are n ot feelign alarmed baout getting chipped for profane reasons, that protects its Jewish minority from muslim mobbing by telling Jews to not behave Jewish in public since that would be a provocation to Muslims, that acts openly hostile and underhanded to Israel, and that tells its native citizens the country does not belong to them but belongs to those foreigners that will come to Sweden in the future. Its a country that boasts quite stupidly to run the first "feminst" foreign policy, whatever that should be, and that completely ducks away from the Muslim riots and destruction of state sovereignty and rule of law in certain now famous regions and city districts.




No, too impressed I am not. Plus i dislike Swedish TV crime movies with their omnipresent social and moral lecturing, I do not like neither Abba nor Ikea, I would not volunteer to let every stranger in the world know about my financial income situation like it is mandatory in Sweden, and their apparent preference for cold colours with overdoses of blue subtones, appearing cold and cool to my eyes, is not my thing, too; and lastly the Swedish language import of using the "Du" even towards complete strangers where the "Sie" would be demanded in German social codex is somethign i do not take friendly either. By German standards of social behaviour, its "prollig".


I think Sweden will not see me as a visitor any time soon.



BTW, the absurd law situation was deswcribed already at the time whe assange fell victim to this obvious plot. It was then when for the first time ever Western media - a few of them at least - pointed finger at the absurd laws and the implicaitons that they could trigger. And back then they still were not as detoriated as they are now.


:ping:


But I like the Gripen, and the CV-series of IFVs. Very.

I checked the thread title twice and yes it did say, "US Politics Thread" :yep:

[Sailor Steve]

I checked the thread title twice and yes it did say, "US Politics Thread" :yep:
And yet you literally liked it earlier when he put down "normal German blockheads".

The impression I got from his post was that things have gotten worse in so-called "Liberal" countries, and he sees the US trying to go the same way. I would think you'd be agreeing, on that one point, anyway.

[Catfish]

I remember a comment of Trump about Sweden, and that they had a problem. Fox News and Breitbart made it into that conditions there were inhuman, it was full of terrorists and Islam would soon be the state religion. You know those baby-killers, terrorists, mexican rapists and all that Sweden is so well-known for, worldwide.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/crime-sweden-rape-capital-europe/

I guess Trump's endless repeatings and rants begin to show some impact on the minds of some. And so the post has something to do with US politics, after all. (sigh)

[Skybird]

Sweden'S problems with its Muslim colony building and rioting is lastign since many years by now, Trump has nothing to do with it. He just parrotted some headlines he picked up somewhere. Especially Malmö gets mentioned time and again, since a decade or longer, and i recall to have posted links to newspaper reports about the situation there already short after the war 2003. Since then things have become much worse. And statistics show that rape crimes have increased by severla factors, so has antimsemitic violence and the spreading of Sharia law.



Sweden has a massive Islam problem, whether their totally nuts super-moralising government admits that or not. It already is where Gemany aims to be. Feminism and socialist pacifism are no capable opponents to Islam that coukld hope to bring it to a halt.




Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. - Karl Popper

And I am not even a fan of this extreme left chatterbox from the deepest dungeons of the ivory tower. But sometimes he just is right.

[Chris K]

I checked the thread title twice and yes it did say, "US Politics Thread" :yep: I checked too.

[Dowly]

When I hear a Swedish journalist and an inernational criminal law expert discussing it and they describe things like I repeated it, then I am not in the seat to claim that they must be wrong becasue I think the Swedish habits seem to be a bit - well, however you call them.
Swedish 'rape laws' were updated to similar standards as in for example Germany (AFAIK) i.e. rape does not need violence or threat of violence to happen for it to be rape, lack of consent is enough. That is all it is.

[Jimbuna]

Turkey are starting to take retaliatory measures against the US sanctions but I doubt it will make any difference.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45179673

[Skybird]

Turkey are starting to take retaliatory measures against the US sanctions but I doubt it will make any difference.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45179673
A reflex tremor in a dead frog's leg. :D

[Skybird]

Swedish 'rape laws' were updated to similar standards as in for example Germany (AFAIK) i.e. rape does not need violence or threat of violence to happen for it to be rape, lack of consent is enough. That is all it is.
No. But anyway.

[Jimbuna]

A reflex tremor in a dead frog's leg. :D

Yeah, something like that :D

[Mr Quatro]

And yet you literally liked it earlier when he put down "normal German blockheads".

The impression I got from his post was that things have gotten worse in so-called "Liberal" countries, and he sees the US trying to go the same way. I would think you'd be agreeing, on that one point, anyway.

Good ole picky Steve at least we know you read it all ... my point in liking the quote I posted by Sky was simply this I found it a bit of humor for one German to laugh at another German :yep:

[Skybird]

100 F-35 seem to not see delivery to Turkey so soon. Well, that is a good move. To hand over such critical knowhow and electronics to such an untrustworthy "partner" who openly eyes an intimate relation with Russia is somethign that I never understood anyway.

They said that Turkey also contributes electronics to the building of the F-35. This must urgently be changed, even if it will cost time and money.

[Catfish]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/28/theresa-may-signs-100m-fighter-jet-deal-with-turkeys-erdogan

:03:

[Skybird]

What was this old saying? Enemies make you stronger. Alliance partners weaken you. Or was that a stratagem I have read somewhere.


Maybe the US would be best off if simply leaving NATO and leave Europeans to caring for their own business all by themselves. I would understand it. After all, most of what concerns NATO today are threats that affect Europe and Europeans and Europeans' freedom and homes. Not America's. For the US its pretty much uninteresting who rules the Black Sea, whether the Balkan is stable or not, and what the balance of power looks like in the Baltic.

[vienna]

100 F-35 seem to not see delivery to Turkey so soon. Well, that is a good move. To hand over such critical knowhow and electronics to such an untrustworthy "partner" who openly eyes an intimate relation with Russia is somethign that I never understood anyway.

They said that Turkey also contributes electronics to the building of the F-35. This must urgently be changed, even if it will cost time and money.


But, but...


Isn't intimate relations with Russia a good thing? Trump seems to think its a really, really good thing...


So much so, he drooped trou and bent over for Vlad at that news conference about a month ago...














<O>

[Skybird]

But, but...

Isn't intimate relations with Russia a good thing? Trump seems to think its a really, really good thing...

So much so, he drooped trou and bent over for Vlad at that news conference about a month ago...

Trump could not differ between a performance by the Bolshoi ballet and a dog fight between two pitbulls in a cage. He only knows that you can make money with selling tickets for both.

[em2nought]

100 F-35 seem to not see delivery to Turkey so soon.

Lucky bastards. :03:

[Jimbuna]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/28/theresa-may-signs-100m-fighter-jet-deal-with-turkeys-erdogan

:03:

The above article was from January 2017 so perhaps now all they will get are a few Spitfires and Hurricanes from Duxford.

[eddie]

The above article was from January 2017 so perhaps now all they will get are a few Spitfires and Hurricanes from Duxford.


That would be such a waste of good aircraft Jim.lol

[Bleiente]

Maybe the US would be best off if simply leaving NATO and leave Europeans to caring for their own business all by themselves. I would understand it. After all, most of what concerns NATO today are threats that affect Europe and Europeans and Europeans' freedom and homes. Not America's. For the US its pretty much uninteresting who rules the Black Sea, whether the Balkan is stable or not, and what the balance of power looks like in the Baltic.


You see that completely wrong - the US is literally sewn to the EU or rather to their markets. Therefore, Trump advocates Brexit to promote disagreements within the EU.

The whole thing has only a heavy catch - if Beijing suddenly decides to reconnect its currency to gold, such states as Russia, Brazil, Pakistan, Mexico, etc., take along.
Thus, the dollar as a reserve currency is obsolete and the United States and Brexit GB are out of world trade.

Edit:
Although @Sky
You are absolutely right with the US (including Brexit GB), we should part with them, they are empty and irrelevant. :D

[August]

You are absolutely right with the US (including Brexit GB), we should part with them, they are empty and irrelevant. :D


https://i.imgur.com/P7ssEJt.jpg

[Skybird]

The following text is a bot translation. I do not post just a link, becasue for whatever the reaosn is, Google Translator does not process the website as a whole like in earlier examples, so I needed to enter the text for translation and copy it, it was the onyl way it worked. Entering the URL into the translator results in errors.

Its an essay on ten reasons that work against how the American election system was meant to work. The article was published in the German SZ newspaper, which is beside the TAZ the leftiest of the major national newspaper over here. Its rare that I read something in it that I agree with, or like, they are quote antisemtic, anti-Israel, "progressive", anti-US, pIslamophile etc, and so i would not care to post them usually, but here they have hit the marks. That I am no fan of general election systems and voting rights becasue voters are not fit for the task and also have dubious rights at best to claim rights over others, should be known by now, i did not hide it. But my usual arguments are more general, deal with the human deficits. In this essay, more practical, pragmatic complictions get listed.

It all is an argument for not expecting a bettering of the polarized situation in the US any time soon, or for a reversing of the fading of political interest and trust in parties in general.

Original German link: LINK (https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/us-politik-zehn-gruende-warum-die-us-demokratie-in-groesster-gefahr-ist-1.4092945)


When William Henry Harrison died, there were many questions. Who should follow him? And for how long? And what power should the successor have? That would not have mattered much if it had not been for Harrison in 1841, just as President of the United States of America, that time was blessed. He was the first president to die in office. And the then young constitution had no answer. Should the vice president take over? And if so, should he finish the term? Or should there be new elections quickly? At that time, his deputy John Tyler took over. But he always had to fight that he could be denied the legitimacy.

What was more astonishing, however, than the fact that the US constitution did not yield anything to it, was how long it took for the open question to finally be settled in a constitutional amendment. That was in 1967, 126 years after Harrison's death. Which says a lot about the willingness of Americans to reform when it comes to constitution and democracy.

There is no question that democracy in the US is in danger. That Donald Trump sits as the 45th President of the United States of America in the White House may be one of the reasons. He whims at the constitution, not afraid to fire an FBI boss who is investigating Trump's people. Above all, his electoral victory is a symptom of a democracy and constitutional crisis that has been smoldering for a long time. The midterms, the midterm elections, are now at the door. In November, the House of Representatives and one-third of the Senate are re-elected. And again, the crisis can be observed in all its different forms. Ten reasons why one of the oldest democracies in the world should not need another 126 years for reform:

1. The electoral system is antediluvian and barely manageable

A nationwide election, but as many electoral rights as there are states: whether senator or deputy, how someone has won his election, also depends on how elected in each state. Most are chosen with electronic voting devices. Since almost every state has its own machines. In most states, citizens have to register as voters before they can vote. In others, 13 to be precise, there are automatic procedures for doing so. In some states, citizens can register on the day of the election. In others, this has to happen weeks in advance. In some states, citizens can register in almost every public agency. In others, there are whole tracts of land without a registration authority. Some require a pass to vote. Others do not. There are states that allow voters to vote before the election day. Others do not. There are also oddities such as that in Illinois, the authorities are obliged to issue "I have chosen" label to the voters. That costs $ 30 million annually. How easy or difficult it is to cast your vote depends mainly on where you live in the United States.

2. The US is in the permanent election campaign

Every two years, it is voted nationwide in the US. The House of Deputies always complete. In addition, a third of the Senate, every four years the president, the governors of the states, the representatives in the state parliaments, mayors. And again and again there are special elections in between when a senator or deputy resigns for whatever reason. The duration of the election campaigns is uniquely long worldwide. The candidates of the parties for a constituency or a senatorial post are determined only in lengthy primaries. The election campaign often runs for months. For a presidential election, potential candidates announce their interest in the spring of last year's election. The 2016 election campaign took 597 days. As soon as one election campaign is over, the next one begins. This reduces the time windows in which something else politically happens. At federal level, for example, Congress has to pass laws only a year after the presidential election and in the year after the midterms, relatively unaffected by election campaigns.

3. Voter turnout is too low

Even in highly dramatic battles over the White House, voter turnout hardly exceeds 55 percent. For the election in 2016, 100 million Americans stayed at home. Almost a third of the population. Among the reasons may include that many are fundamentally disappointed with the policy. But that is too easy. It is also majority voting that prevents many from voting. In the vast majority of electoral districts and states, the result is already clear. Either the Democrat or the Republican wins. Very rarely an independent candidate. This lowers motivation on both sides.

Even when it comes to the presidency, that's the way it is. Ultimately, what results the candidates in the states achieve. And there, the majorities in most states have been concreted for decades on one side or the other. Last but not least, Election Day is always a Tuesday in the USA. If you want to vote, you often have to take it off. However, often only those who have a steady job and a nice boss can do that. So far, the legislators seem to accept that.

4. Gerryymandering destroys confidence in democracy

Only as a game of thought: In North Rhine-Westphalia, the black-yellow coalition reformed the constituencies. And so that the probability that ever again the SPD wins a constituency, goes to zero. In NRW, that would only be half as bad. The proportional representation law ensures that the parties are allowed to send delegates to parliament according to their share of the vote. In the US, however, this kind of creative constituency design, called gerrymandering, has become a real fashion that is experiencing a boom, especially in Republican countries. Constituencies are not even remotely reminiscent of circles. But rather bananas with strange protrusions on the ends. Or horseshoes, so that a more democratic-minded area can be excluded. This guarantees that a party always gets the majority. What does the Supreme Court say about the US Supreme Court? So far nothing. He did not dismiss a complaint until June. Because of form errors. The court is mostly conservative.

5. Dialing is made unnecessarily difficult

President Trump supports the idea: If you want to vote, you have to identify yourself. The claim hits parts of US society on a sore spot. Confidence in government institutions is so low that many refuse to even get an ID card. A compulsory identification, as in Germany, is generally not available in the USA. Those who do not have a driver's license often have no other ID card. Especially voters from educationally disadvantaged groups are afraid to get an ID.

More and more states are therefore denied access to the voting booth, even if they are registered voters. In the state of Wisconsin, a federal judge has meanwhile stopped the ID obligation five years after its introduction. And with the remark that nine percent of voters did not have the required ID. Black voters are 50 percent more likely to have no ID than white voters.

For election in 2016, the rule was in force again. Hillary Clinton has lost 23,000 votes against Trump. And then, among other things, made the ID rule responsible for their defeat. The assumption is supported by data on turnout. In states with an ID requirement, voter turnout has fallen by 1.7 percent on average. In states without ID obligation by 1.3 percent. And in Wisconsin by 3.3 percent.

6. Too many people are not allowed to vote

Crystal Mason was jailed for five years in March 2018. And that's because she went to vote in November 2016. She did not want that. She had already been sentenced to prison in 2012 for a tax offense. And came in 2016 prematurely on parole from jail. What she did not know: In Texas, her home state, no one is allowed to vote in prison or serve a probationary sentence. She was convicted as if she were a professional fraudster. The rule applies to a whole range of states. And it means that more than six million US citizens are no longer allowed to vote. It is obvious that according to figures of the "Sentencing Project" the rule affects one out of 13 black voters in the USA. But only one out of 56 non-black voters.

7. The right to vote is not paid enough as a civil right

The Brennan Center for Justice at the Law School of New York University has just published a study that reveals a scandal that should have hit huge waves. Between 2014 and 2016, 16 million voters across the United States have been removed from voter lists. Often in automated and sometimes proven faulty procedures. Sometimes all people who allegedly no longer live in the constituency are deleted. Thousands of people are being dropped, and the authorities say they are not eligible to vote because of a crime. For no apparent reason.

Thousands of voters in Brooklyn were sent back in New York's April 19, 2016 primary election because their names were no longer on voter lists. The cleanup of the lists may be fine if done correctly. And possibly also prevent electoral fraud. However, researchers at the Brennan Center for Justice have found that sometimes the cleanup itself is fraudulent in preventing unwanted voters from voting. Five states have illegally cleared their electoral roll over the past five years. And four states have enacted cleansing rules that are unlawful from the researchers' point of view. There, for example, voters are automatically deleted without informing them in advance and giving them an opportunity to object.

8. The two-party system has become obsolete

Orange juice is available in the USA with lots of pulp, with little, with some pulp or without. And that from juice concentrate or directly pressed, organic and conventional. The 328 million US citizens can vote here. Every day. Only in politics, they have only two options: Democrats or Republicans. There are other parties. Realistically, they have no chance of achieving anything. The system is crumbly. It offers no political home to all those who do not want to and can not locate in one of the two major parties. And that makes the system vulnerable to accidents. Accidents, as Trump is one.

The numbers: Trump was in the 2016 primaries for 14 million voters the favorite. That is just six percent of the 230 million eligible voters. That was enough to make him a Republican candidate. And because he was the Republican candidate, 63 million Americans voted for him. Which is also only 27 percent of eligible voters. In other words, anyone who manages to win over a good quarter of the electorate wins all power in Washington. Three quarters of eligible voters feel in doubt not represented.

9. Electoral College disregards the citizen's will

Hillary Clinton had three million more votes than Donald Trump. Three million votes that simply did not count. That's because of the presidential election system. The crucial thing is to win as many electoral votes in the states. And there is: The winner takes all, the winner gets everything. Each federal state broadcasts electoral males into Electoral College, the body that elects the president in the end. Low-income countries are rather over-represented there. This should prevent the populous coastal states from dominating the country.

Against the "The winner takes all" rule but now the resistance is growing. Former Massachusetts Governor Bill Weld, lawyer and Harvard Professor Lawrence Lessig, and former Al Gore lawyer David Boies co-founded the Equal Votes campaign. And now succinctly sued the states of California, Texas, Massachusetts and South Carolina. Their goal is to abolish the winner takes all rule, which is practiced in 48 states. Best before the 2020 election.

Instead, the percentage of votes should determine how many electors are awarded candidates in one state. An example: In Texas, Hillary Clinton won just under 3.9 million votes in 2016, Trump 4.7 million votes. Nevertheless, Trump was awarded all 38 electoral votes there. According to the model of Equal Vote, Clinton would have won 16 electoral votes there, Trump 20. And the remaining two votes would probably have received the third place with just over three percent libertarian candidate Gary Johnson.

10. The money is ruining US democracy

Jeff Beals decided spontaneously to be a Democratic candidate for Congress in the 19th district of New York State. He wanted to be different. He is not a financial lawyer or businessman like the other Democratic candidates. But a teacher, a former diplomat. He ran for office. And got a call from his party in the days after. The first question to him was not what he wanted content. With which he wants to convince people to choose him. The first question was: how much money do you bring together? Beals told his story to the podcast "This American Life". Several hundred thousand dollars for the pre-election campaign. And later more than two million dollars for the election campaign against the Republican candidate. So much money he would have had to raise to have a chance.

What he has noticed in the election campaign: He can not get that much money without bending himself politically. Beals wants about a uniform health insurance for all. In the Democratic Party, the idea is controversial. At most, the party establishment wants to be nailed down to the phrase "affordable health insurance for all". And the main donors in Beals constituency see the same. He did not get the money he needed to make himself known throughout the district. He lost the area code significantly. Of the 35,000 votes cast, he won only 4600 for himself.

His case shows that money is the most important force in the US democratic process. Anyone who knows big donors on his side does not have to worry about how many TV and radio spots he will send, how many posters he can put up. But donors have a clear political agenda. You choose very precisely which candidate represents your interests. Whether that is also the interests of the general public, does not matter at first.

Gaining money is one of the most important activities of a congressman today. Up to four hours a day, they sit in call centers at their party headquarters and call out to strangers begging for money, individual congressmen report. In addition there are donation dinners and receptions.

The system is still perverted since the Supreme Court decided in 2010 that companies and organizations have a political opinion and can underline it with donations. Direct donations to parties and candidates are capped. But instead, thanks to the ruling, there are more and more so-called super PACs, to which unlimited money can be given.

Super PACs are basically very powerful election aid groups that together pumped $ 1.1 billion into the presidential campaign in 2016. Their donors do not always want to be visible. But the candidates and the parties who are indirectly supported with the money know very well who helped them there. Members who have won their election with the help of Super PACs will avoid angering their patrons.

[Mr Quatro]

Good find Sky ... a lot to read, but good at pointing out a few of our voting deficiencies.

May I add one observation that I find hard to believe, but true ... :yep:

Since the under 21 age group was allowed to vote since June 1970

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-sixth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

The Twenty-sixth Amendment (Amendment XXVI) to the United States Constitution prohibits the states and the federal government from using age as a reason for denying the right to vote to citizens of the United States who are at least eighteen years old. The drive to lower the voting age from 21 to 18 grew across the country during the 1960s

No election has ever been over turned by this younger age group of 21 and under ... what I mean is that if all of their votes were to be counted for the losing party ... that party still would not have won. :o

[August]

What claptrap. The Electoral system works perfectly. It works just as it was designed and it is vital to keeping the United States united. Without it the country is governed by just 4 or 5 and there is absolutely no reason for the other 45 to put up with it.

[Sailor Steve]

Actually the Electoral College system was designed to preserve the States' autonomy, i.e. keep them separate and preserve their individual power. The idea was that, while they had to be united to survive they didn't want to give up what they had. Madison wanted all the power to rest in the hands of the People. Others wanted the power to belong to the States. The People were never meant to vote in a Presidential Elections. The States were to appoint the Electors in whatever manner they thought best. As it turned out more and more States decided that it was best to let the People decide.

I see it both ways. On the one hand if the EC was done away with then what happened in 2000 could conceivably happen many times over, with multiple recounts happening over the whole country and a decision possibly never being reached. On the other hand it's not the land that does the voting, or the States proper. If the People are to decide, then is it right for the States to overturn that decision with an all-or-nothing process? In fact it hasn't always been that way. It used to be that the Electors were aligned by votes within the States. The same argument made for the Nation could also be made at the State level. If Utah has six Electors and 60% of the voters are Republican, 30 % Democrat and 10% "other", is it really fair for all six Electors to be Republican? Some States used to divide it; Maine and Nebraska still do.

So the EC system was created so the States elect the President, and the People didn't. It still works out that way, even though the people are allowed to vote for the Electors. Is it right? Is it fair? I don't know. I do see that people are unhappy when they think they're voting for the President but the candidate who the people want loses to the candidate the States mandate.

Don't take this to mean I'm unhappy with the last Presidential Election. I am, but I didn't want either one of them. "None Of The Above" doesn't get a vote.

[mapuc]

Each country has their own type of voting system

I may think it is weird or unfair.

Well I don't live in those countries and it is their citizens who have to protest against it.

And I have not seen millions of American in the street demonstrating against the voting system they have.

Markus

[Catfish]

[...]
I may think it is weird or unfair. Well I don't live in those countries and it is their citizens who have to protest against it.
And I have not seen millions of American in the street demonstrating against the voting system they have. Markus

I am astonished that there are so much people not allowed to vote in the US, then there are completely different voting systems in the different states, and that millions of voters cannot vote because they dropped off the official list, by mistake.
But my take is most people have no real idea how their system really works, and they do not care much, also here. Otherwise, with a better understanding, there probably would be a rebellion.
On the other hand even a vast majority of voters would not lead to 'their' president being elected. Frankly i do not see a 'democracy' at work. Not there, not here, not in the UK.

[Bleiente]

"The plans were public"
Free to "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy".

And now I get my towel and I'm gone... :yep:

[u crank]

I am astonished that there are so much people not allowed to vote in the US, then there are completely different voting systems in the different states, and that millions of voters cannot vote because they dropped off the official list, by mistake.
But my take is most people have no real idea how their system really works, and they do not care much, also here. Otherwise, with a better understanding, there probably would be a rebellion.
On the other hand even a vast majority of voters would not lead to 'their' president being elected. Frankly i do not see a 'democracy' at work. Not there, not here, not in the UK.

Over 100,000,000 Americans did not vote in the 2016 election. Were they all prevented from voting? I doubt it. Indifference is probably one reason. But another is almost certainly the fact that no matter who you vote for, nothing changes.

[Jimbuna]

Frankly i do not see a 'democracy' at work. Not there, not here, not in the UK.

Really? Care to elaborate?

[Catfish]

Over 100,000,000 Americans did not vote in the 2016 election. Were they all prevented from voting? I doubt it. Indifference is probably one reason. But another is almost certainly the fact that no matter who you vote for, nothing changes.

Well this is what i read, among a lot of other strange stuff, in the text further north:

"Between 2014 and 2016, 16 million voters across the United States have been removed from voter lists. Often in automated and sometimes proven faulty procedures. Sometimes all people who allegedly no longer live in the constituency are deleted. Thousands of people are being dropped, and the authorities say they are not eligible to vote because of a crime. For no apparent reason."

Thousands of voters in Brooklyn were sent back in New York's April 19, 2016 primary election because their names were no longer on voter lists. The cleanup of the lists may be fine if done correctly. And possibly also prevent electoral fraud. However, researchers at the Brennan Center for Justice have found that sometimes the cleanup itself is fraudulent in preventing unwanted voters from voting. Five states have illegally cleared their electoral roll over the past five years. And four states have enacted cleansing rules that are unlawful from the researchers' point of view. There, for example, voters are automatically deleted without informing them in advance and giving them an opportunity to object.

Of course what has become clear, if elections really changed something, they would be forbidden.

[vienna]

A lot of Americans are not aware that, for about a decade now, there has been an effort by individual states, uniting to address the inequities of the Electoral College in regards to a reflection of the popular vote, to award their EC votes to whoever wins the national popular vote:

National Popular Vote Interstate Compact --


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact


I always point back to the 1972 Presidential Election when discussing the sometimes glaring disparities in the EC system: Nixon got 60.7% of the popular vote, but got a whopping 96.8% of the EC votes...














<O>

[Platapus]

The intent of the Electoral College is to ensure that who ever is elected President/Vice President garners the majority of the votes in the majority of the states. Not just the majority of votes.

Like most aspects concerning representation, it is a compromise between the larger population states and the smaller population states.

It may be a flawed compromise, but it is one that works very well for over 200 years.

The important thing to keep in mind is that the Electoral College is a very well known process and that all candidates understand how the Electoral College works and what is needed to win the election. It is the same election system we use in all presidential elections.

I do not find anything wrong with the Electoral College at the national level. My disagreement is how each state chooses to allocate their electors. But that is entirely up to the individual states.

[Bleiente]

And I think the US is a racist state at the highest level.
Has anyone asked the "Indians"... :03:

[Skybird]

Between how it once may have been meant by its crators, and the results it indeed creates in actual outcome, there obviously lies a whole galaxy. Its like i said i other conetxts before: the self-understanding of the (historical) US and the way it really is, is immense nowadays, or may I say: reality diverts from ideal more and more.

The article I posted said it already in the very second apragraph, at the end: "What was more astonishing, however, than the fact that the US constitution did not yield anything to it, was how long it took for the open question to finally be settled in a constitutional amendment. That was in 1967, 126 years after Harrison's death. Which says a lot about the willingness of Americans to reform when it comes to constitution and democracy." You can see this in other debates related to Constitution and Amendments as well, especially relating firearms.

I assess this eleciton reality on the gorpund of what is claimed that it should be. Whether I would agree with the meaningfulness and reasonability of how it ic claimed it should be, is something completely diffrent. My problem is the electorate itself, its fitness to handle responsibly any general, undiscriminatory right to vote. The best ideal helps nothing if there is a lack in reason to realise it. This is the fundament that critics like Jason Brennan found their broadsides against modenr understanding of dmeocracy and majority election on. In his words, democracy (modern) needs Vulcans to function, but what you have is a majority of Hobbits that allow a minority of Orcs to mob, intimidate, manipulate them, all the tiem while the Hiobbis do not care for anythign more than just watering the flowers in their garden without looking beyond the garden fence anyway.

At the very root of the problem with modern democracy is a fundamental misunderstanding regarding what democracy actually really is. But I excplained the ancient Greek undersdtanding of it often enough already. Its suffice to remind of that modern democracy has nothing to do with what the old Greeks understood to be "democracy". Nothing. Our "democracy" was their oligarchic/ochlocratic tyranny. We use a more modern, shorter term for that today. We simply call it "socialism": the rule of the party and its lobbies and business supporters (oligarchy), and expropriation and redistribution of wealth (ochlocracy).


Both are at work in the growing distortion of the American (and European!) election systems as well.

[u crank]

A lot of Americans are not aware that, for about a decade now, there has been an effort by individual states, uniting to address the inequities of the Electoral College in regards to a reflection of the popular vote, to award their EC votes to whoever wins the national popular vote:


All of the states that have so far adopted the NPVIC have consistently voted for a Democratic presidential candidate for a long time. Surprise surprise.:haha:

[Bleiente]

... expropriation and redistribution of wealth.
I think that's good, because it was simply stolen from the actual worker.
Anyone who asserts something else is also part of the parasitism of this society.


:D

[vienna]

All of the states that have so far adopted the NPVIC have consistently voted for a Democratic presidential candidate for a long time. Surprise surprise.:haha:





Yeah, the GOP states are so busy gerrymandering and stacking the deck in their favor and gaming the EC, it doesn't have the time to consider the NPVIC...


...It's just easier to practice crooked politics as usual...



..but the states that have already signed on represent 63%+ of the total EC votes and, if the mid-terms at the state level result in DEM gains in state legislatures, the goal of the NPVIC may be reached sooner than later. Then you'll see the GOP scrambling to actually get popular support outside its 'core' within those DEM states when Presidential elections roll around...














<O>

[u crank]

Yeah, the GOP states are so busy gerrymandering and stacking the deck in their favor and gaming the EC, it doesn't have the time to consider the NPVIC...

Are you suggesting that only Republicans do this?

the goal of the NPVIC may be reached sooner than later.

As per my previous post I think the 'goal' is pretty obvious.

[vienna]

Are you suggesting that only Republicans do this?

...





Not at all; I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of the GOP when they do conduct themselves in unethical and, sometimes, illegal, manners and yet, when someone opposed to them does something similar against them, they rise up in outrage and indignation...

Maybe if the GOP were really, sincerely, and above all, honestly serious about such things as "draining the swamp", they'd first take care to clean up their own muck and mire. Right now, they are little better than those moralizing televangelists who so very often get caught with their pants down and/or their hands in the till. The current occupant of the Oval Office and his minions are of the highest order of offenders against the "principles" touted by the morally outraged GOP. Maybe they should start there in their crusade since its such a mess: I mean, is there no one in the Trump administration that doesn't have a connection to Russian interests, trying to sell influence to access the Oval Office, or who hasn't been ripping off the taxpayers by extravagances?...




...

As per my previous post I think the 'goal' is pretty obvious.





...and they are getting very close to that goal and the GOP, by their inaction, their espousing of crap candidates like Trump, Roy Moore and other such non-starters, and their alienation of even more voters every day is making it so much easier to get to the goal...

A while back in this thread, someone posted that 79% of the voters who voted for Trump would do so now as if that was a good sign. Let's look at the numbers. The 79% percent stat actually means 21% of Trump's former voters, that's one of every five, have left the fold, not a bell-ringing endorsement. Let's go further. Trump lost the popular vote by 2,868,686 votes; a loss of 21% of the votes he got in 2016 would be 13,226,814 voters, which, when added to his deficit against Clinton, nets out at 16,095,500 voters he can't fully rely on being in his camp. that's a whopping number to overcome and, as he continues to self-destruct, it looks to only get worse. The Trumpers like to point at his anemic approval ratings as a some sort of a 'good thing' yet Trump has never risen above 50% at any point in his term and has only gained 0.9% in approval since he first took office (41.3% Day 1 versus 42.2% Today):


How popular/unpopular is Donald Trump? --

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/



If you notice, except for a very brief dip down to a 48.8% disapproval rating early on, Trump has been consistently over 50% in disapproval. When you have over 50% of the voters disliking you and your politics, that does not bode well...

Fortunately, for the GOP, things will no doubt improve when President Pence runs 2020... :D :03:













<O>

[u crank]

when someone opposed to them does something similar against them, they rise up in outrage and indignation...

Again, are you suggesting that only one side does this? Politicians are by nature hypocrites. It's in the rule book.

...I mean, is there no one in the Trump administration that doesn't have a connection to Russian interests, trying to sell influence to access the Oval Office

You mean like the Clintons and the Podestas.:D

Look no administration is without sin. Personally I am much more concerned about how an administration handles the rule of law. Corruption and politics are bedfellows but incompetence and political interference are inexcusable. If one of the governments agencies, for example, the FBI has its director, deputy director and one of its top agents removed from office something is wrong. Who is ultimately responsible? The guy who was responsible is strangely quiet. I see no parallel to this yet in the current administration. Yes there is lots to complain about but nothing like that.

Then there's John Brennan.:shifty:

Fortunately, for the GOP, things will no doubt improve when President Pence runs 2020..

Well I am curious.... who would you suggest for the Dem candidate to run against Trump..oops.. I mean Pence.:D

[Mr Quatro]

If Trump had of won the entire west coast of the United States and Clinton had of won the midwest instead of Trump then she would've been the POTUS.

Is that fair? :o

While doing research on my lack of knowledge I found this article:

http://www.startribune.com/the-electoral-college-still-gets-my-vote/401967335/

First, the Electoral College tends to produce decisive outcomes. A pure popular vote contest might often lead to a disputed result.

Take this year. At last count, Clinton had surpassed a million-vote margin over Trump. It’s important to remember that the campaigns would implement different strategies in a popular vote contest — so these results simply don’t prove that Clinton would have won such a race. And while her lead is considerable, it’s still only about 1 percent of all votes cast — narrow enough to produce uncertainty if popular votes directly determined the winner and set armies of lawyers into motion.

In the unusual election of 2000, when the presidential race was decided by the paper-thin popular vote margin of a single state, we saw what agonies a mere statewide recount battle can produce. Imagine it on a national scale.

[em2nought]

Take this year. At last count, Clinton had surpassed a million-vote margin over Trump. It’s important to remember that the campaigns would implement different strategies in a popular vote contest — so these results simply don’t prove that Clinton would have won such a race.

Oh, that's a very good point. I'll have to remember to use that. :up:

[Mr Quatro]

Oh, that's a very good point. I'll have to remember to use that. :up:

You left out this point that the article pointed out

And while her lead is considerable, it’s still only about 1 percent of all votes cast — narrow enough to produce uncertainty if popular votes directly determined the winner and set armies of lawyers into motion.

In other words a popular vote would require a recount in each state costing millions if not billions of dollars :o

[Sailor Steve]

Good point, Mr Q.
In other words a popular vote would require a recount in each state costing millions if not billions of dollars :o
Also, as I pointed out earlier, it could potentially cost more time than the country can afford.

[Catfish]

Manafort found guilty

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-trump-russia-manafort/jury-in-manafort-trial-asks-judge-about-consensus-issue-idUSKCN1L60WU

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-mueller/follow-the-money-how-muellers-team-made-the-manafort-case-idUSKCN1L7009

"Prosecutors entered 388 exhibits into evidence and offered testimony from 27 witnesses who painted a picture of Manafort as a tax cheat who used offshore accounts to hide a significant portion of the $60 million-plus he earned working for pro-Russian politicians in Ukraine and lied to banks for obtain loans when the work dried up in 2014 and he needed cash."

He clearly is "one of us" :D

[Dowly]

And Michael Cohen pleads guilty to eight counts and is 'more than happy' to cooperate with the special counsel.

https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1032082241797668864


The Spy Who Loved Pee sure surrounds himself with great people. :yep:

[Skybird]

Donald - The man with the license to imagine fiction and stories, sits in a deep hole and digs on, day in, day out, deeper and deeper.


What I am not clear about is whether he can just fire Mueller, or is Mueller in any way safeguarded by writen legal standards? That the Donald gets more and more nervous about the shelling creeping on his very own position, is obvious. He might reach a point where he thinks he can no longer afford to pay attention to the public impression it would leave if he fires Mueller, and just does it to get rid of him. Is that legally possible?

[Catfish]

That those two have been proven guilty is not evidence of a collusion with Russia.

If Trump has nothing to fear he should not tweet-shoot against anyone, but just sit it out.

[Dowly]

What I am not clear about is whether he can just fire Mueller, or is Mueller in any way safeguarded by writen legal standards? That the Donald gets more and more nervous about the shelling creeping on his very own position, is obvious. He might reach a point where he thinks he can no longer afford to pay attention to the public impression it would leave if he fires Mueller, and just does it to get rid of him. Is that legally possible?
As I understand it, he would have to have Deputy AG Rosenstein fire Mueller, and if Rosenstein refuses Trump then could try to fire Rosenstein and ask the next in line to fire Mueller.

Similiar to what Nixon did during the Watergate Scandal. (Saturday Night Massacre (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturday_Night_Massacre))


EDIT: Here's the full Rachel Maddow interview with Cohen's lawyer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDfrZMGwQ-A

[Mr Quatro]

https://www.bing.com/th?id=ON.4580E16B2A3B9E2FD8CE7CC1202F455D&pid=News&w=258&h=145&c=14&rs=2&qlt=85

The Day That Everything Changed for Trump

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/08/trump-cohen-manafort-collusion/568132/

I was searching the news on Bing when I noticed these two articles were right over the top of each other. Coincidence :o


https://www.bing.com/th?id=ON.5B3737BE9B8C9D1FA2014BE6CA233F56&pid=News&w=258&h=145&c=14&rs=2&qlt=85

'No order to become unready': US troops poised to confront threats from North Korea

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/08/21/us-military-remains-ready-korea-brooks/1060016002/

[Bleiente]

Down with the racist, misanthrope and opportunist Trump - the whole family Trump should be punished. :up:

[Sailor Steve]

Do you have any insight to go with that rant, or is it just your feelings?

[Skybird]

Similiar to what Nixon did during the Watergate Scandal. (Saturday Night Massacre (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturday_Night_Massacre))

Thanks. First time I heard of that.

[em2nought]

Down with the racist
Maybe you should go jump in a Deutsch oven. :03:

[Bleiente]

Do you have any insight to go with that rant, or is it just your feelings?
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fspiegel%2Fdonald-trump-der-rassist-im-weissen-haus-a-1163485.html


My feeling is correct, neither the color of the skin nor the nation determines humanity; only the individual person does this alone.