View Full Version : US Politics Thread 2016-2020
I guess noone here is interested in cyber (apart from skybird), particularly offensive cyber?
Unless it can be used to politically damage the US President nobody cares.
ikalugin
02-13-17, 07:50 AM
Unless it can be used to politically damage the US President nobody cares.
In that context (DNC stuff) it is not offensive cyber, as offensive cyber is tasked with destruction of physical objects - ie centrifuges in the case of the infamous stuxnet.
The issue here is that cyber is a strategic offensive weapon, one that is not regulated like the other WMDs, nor is it as easy to detect and attribute as the regular WMDs are.
Catfish
02-13-17, 07:56 AM
The issue here is that cyber is a strategic offensive weapon, one that is not regulated like the other WMDs, nor is it as easy to detect and attribute as the regular WMDs are.
Strategic maybe, but "WMD"? Cyber?
Weapons of mass desinformation? :03:
ikalugin
02-13-17, 08:01 AM
Strategic maybe, but "WMD"? Cyber?
Weapons of mass desinformation? :03:
Destruction.
Industrial systems (factories working with dangerous chemical or nuclear substances, powerplants, etc), critical infrastructure (transport, comunications, etc) are vulnerable to the offensive cyber and would remain so in the future. Destruction of those industrial and transportation systems, disruption and degration of response towards such an attack would lead to mass casualties.
US really did open the bottle with the STUXNET, even though destructive attacks are rare (as they require significant resources and will to carry out) they would add to the disruptive ones (such as DoS attacks).
AVGWarhawk
02-13-17, 08:50 AM
But the Liberals would say that they're doing obstructionism against the Conservative agenda, it goes both ways.
Then there would be a point to their obstruction. Instead they're tossing as much random mud as they can hoping that something will finally stick.
True, it does go both ways. And I agree with August, all stops have been pulled out. Does not matter what it is as long as it obstructs.
Well, it's early days at the moment, the Dems are headless and trying to find a new ground to stand on torn between the Bernies and the Clinton wings. Eventually things will coalese into a more coherant strategy, but honestly I wouldn't expect a Democratic victory in 2020 unless Trump really screws things up. The comeback will be in 2024. Probably around the time that the Labour Party in the UK makes its comeback.
The Republicans also have their civil war to fight, between the Tea Party and the Neo-Con sections, but the victory in the election has postponed that war for now.Actually, the Tea Party/ Old Guard Republican is over and the Old Guard lost, If you don't believe me, look at who the Republicans elected to President, Their influence is waning, guys like Graham, McCain, McConnel, they'll be retiring soon.
The Democrats on the other hand, have an uphill battle, they suffer from group-think, and they tend to let emotions cloud their judgement. I don't see them being able to field a viable national candidate until 2024.
Sailor Steve
02-13-17, 10:04 AM
And he was on ABC this morning making wild comments about voter fraud again.
Not too long ago I saw comment on that which made me laugh: "You won! Get over it!"
Bilge_Rat
02-13-17, 10:20 AM
"The end result of this, though, is that our opponents, the media, and the whole world will soon see, as we begin to take further actions, that the powers of the president to protect our country are very substantial, and will not be questioned.":nope:
well actually, he is correct as a statement of both the President's powers under the Constitution and immigration laws.
President Obama took the same position and also argued his immigration EOs were not subject to review.
And he was on ABC this morning making wild comments about voter fraud again. Problem is, he can't provide any evidence of that! I guess if you repeat it enough , it has to be true,lol
well actually according to at least one academic study between 1.2 million and 2.8 million non-citizens may have illegally voted in the 2008 election:
Taking the least conservative measure e at
least one indicator showed that the respondent voted e
yields an estimate that between 7.9% and 14.7% percent
of non-citizens voted in 2008. Since the adult noncitizen
population of the United States was roughly
19.4 million (CPS, 2011), the number of non-citizen
voters (including both uncertainty based on normally
distributed sampling error, and the various combinations
of verified and reported voting) could range from just
over 38,000 at the very minimum to nearly 2.8 million at
the maximum.
The adjusted estimate of 6.4 percent for 2008 is quite substantial,
and would be associated with 1.2 million noncitizen
votes cast in 2008 if the weighted CCES sample is
fully representative of the non-citizen population
(pp152-153)
http://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Do-Non-Citizens-Vote-in-US-Elections-Richman-et-al.pdf
There is a large potential for voter fraud under the current U.S. system and the "evidence" is there. Of course, no one on the left wants to even admit that possibility, because there would then be a push to "fix" the system.
Personally, I think the raising of the "voter fraud" issue has more to do with mobilizing the GOP base and discrediting the mainstream media in the eyse of the Base. Notice how the media goes ballistic whenever the issue is raised.
AVGWarhawk
02-13-17, 10:43 AM
Personally, I think the raising of the "voter fraud" issue has more to do with mobilizing the GOP base and discrediting the mainstream media in the eyse of the Base. Notice how the media goes ballistic whenever the issue is raised.
Of course the media goes ballistic, it is good fodder to point out Trump is losing it mentally.
Rockin Robbins
02-13-17, 11:01 AM
well actually, he is correct as a statement of both the President's powers under the Constitution and immigration laws.
President Obama took the same position and also argued his immigration EOs were not subject to review.
And President Obama's orders nullified settled and in-place laws pertaining to illegal aliens: those redefined by the press as "immigrants" who are nothing of the kind. But defining them as "immigrants" allows liberals to say "America is a nation of immigrants" and other true statements, now rendered untrue by their unilateral redefinition of the term "immigrant." There is no equivalency between the immigrants of the past and the illegal aliens of the present, any more than there is an equivalency between immigration through Ellis Island and the Normandy Invasion during World War II.
President Obama, in violation of his oath of office and constitutional duties to enforce and administrate the laws passed by Congress, unilaterally sought to void those laws, declaring that his actions were above review. I would argue that he committed an impeachable offense there, but we don't give the constitution anything but lip service any more.
President Trump, on the other hand, did not seek to invalidate any law, just to declare a 90 day moratorium on travel from seven countries officially recognized by the Obama Administration and Congress as state sponsors of terrorism, who have announced their intent of mingling terrorists with legitimate refugees, and who have successfully implemented that threat in Europe. Trump, acting in the spirit of any government's first duty: to shield its citizens from harm, merely wants to take sensible steps to ensure that we have processes in place to more solidly validate refugees as "not plants of terrorism sponsoring countries."
Same defense. Two starkly different actions and motivations. One sought to defy the courts and Congress to institute open borders without any restrictions. The other seeking to temporarily restrict travel while we get our crap in order to restore the travel process as before. The same arguments used against Trump's action could be used against airlines restricting travel due to a snowstorm.
It is impossible to attack Trump's order without admitting that Obama's were magnitudes worse, seeking permanent change of settled American law, passed by Congress and adjudicated by the courts for decades before, without any due process, by decree and in violation of Obama's oath of office and the US Constitution.
If you excuse Obama's gross application of executive orders, you must permit Trump's much lesser application of that same power.
Skybird
02-13-17, 12:08 PM
The bill for the Trump effect starts to get footed.
Two years ago, the share of foreign, non-US holders of US treasuries, was around 55 or 56%. In the past weeks since the election and again since the inauguration, the biggest debtors of America, Japan and China, have started to sell their US treasuries drastically. By now, the share of foreign non-US holders of US treasuries has dropped to I red around 45, 46% . And this although US treasuries currently offer better interests than most other state's treasuries!
The US is dramatically depending on foreing money flushing into the debt-ridden US market. If this flow of fresh capital bogs down, Trump - and America - get problems. Serious problems.
I predict when US citizens in four years wil look at the financial math of their election decison last autumn, they will either not understand why what happened - or they will stare at it in shock and awe and will not believe it.
And let nobody tell you that the stockmarket are skyrocketing and the price indices are in stellar orbit. If you seriously believe that within a couple of years the value and worth of the real economy's companies and factories, services and products has multiplied by several factors like the stock values seem to imply, than nobody can help you.
Bubble game, round - which round are we in by now? I forgot.
Market is overheated, and hopelessly so. The central banks are pushing the bubbles around the globe like they play a ball on a football field, increasing them all the time. As I see it, by now anythign can happen just any time, in ten days, ten months or ten years - predictions have become impossible. Which describes a state of maximum uncertainty and unpredictability. And that means where you act on the grounds of what you believe is your stock market strategy, you indeed gamble. You can still win great money, yes - but not by reasonable long term strategy anymore, basing on past experiences that lead to the rules you read about - but mere luck.
And this is is not even already calculating in the crisis of the debt-papermoney as a failing system.
Trump may pull his show off, but in the end there will be coming a horrendous bill, much worse than the bill presented at the end of Reagan's reign - just on a much lower total level back then. Trump will add an exponent to it - or he crashlands already in the first half of his first term.
I recommend to stop investing for profit, and start to plan under the premise of that now is the time to start saving, protecting and conserving what you already have - to save it over the crisis coming, if possible. Small losses due to inflation you probably cannot void. Risk-free options are no longer existent as well. Have reserves so you can afford losses. If you haven't, may the Force be with you.
Once the shells start falling and the ground starts shaking, there is no safe place on the battlefield anymore. Nowhere.
Maybe it is just fair and just: those who have given Trump their vote, will most likely get hit the hardest by what is about to come down on America, and us all.
AVGWarhawk
02-13-17, 12:31 PM
The bill for the Trump effect starts to get footed.
Two years ago, the share of foreign, non-US holders of US treasuries, was around 55 or 56%. In the past weeks since the election and again since the inauguration, the biggest debtors of America, Japan and China, have started to sell their US treasuries drastically. By now, the share of foreign non-US holders of US treasuries has dropped to I red around 45, 46% . And this although US treasuries currently offer better interests than most other state's treasuries!
The US is dramatically depending on foreing money flushing into the debt-ridden US market. If this flow of fresh capital bogs down, Trump - and America - get problems. Serious problems.
I predict when US citizens in four years wil look at the financial math of their election decison last autumn, they will either not understand why what happened - or they will stare at it in shock and awe and will not believe it.
And let nobody tell you that the stockmarket are skyrocketing and the price indices are in stellar orbit. If you seriously believe that within a couple of years the value and worth of the real economy's companies and factories, services and products has multiplied by several factors like the stock values seem to imply, than nobody can help you.
Bubble game, round - which round are we in by now? I forgot.
Market is overheated, and hopelessly so. The central banks are pushing the bubbles around the globe like they play a ball on a football field, increasing them all the time. As I see it, by now anythign can happen just any time, in ten days, ten months or ten years - predictions have become impossible. Which describes a state of maximum uncertainty and unpredictability. And that means where you act on the grounds of what you believe is your stock market strategy, you indeed gamble. You can still win great money, yes - but not by reasonable long term strategy anymore, basing on past experiences that lead to the rules you read about - but mere luck.
And this is is not even already calculating in the crisis of the debt-papermoney as a failing system.
Trump may pull his show off, but in the end there will be coming a horrendous bill, much worse than the bill presented at the end of Reagan's reign - just on a much lower total level back then. Trump will add an exponent to it - or he crashlands already in the first half of his first term.
I recommend to stop investing for profit, and start to plan under the premise of that now is the time to start saving, protecting and conserving what you already have - to save it over the crisis coming, if possible. Small losses due to inflation you probably cannot void. Risk-free options are no longer existent as well. Have reserves so you can afford losses. If you haven't, may the Force be with you.
Once the shells start falling and the ground starts shaking, there is no safe place on the battlefield anymore. Nowhere.
Maybe it is just fair and just: those who have given Trump their vote, will most likely get hit the hardest by what is about to come down on America, and us all.
Spoken like Deutsche Bank.
Skybird
02-13-17, 12:34 PM
The Deutsche Bank's reasoning, and my reasoning, couldn't be any more different.
Or any bank's reasoning, for that matter.
What they want, I fight against. What I want, is their worst nightmare. What I argue against, is their air to breathe.
25.000 postings. All beers on me!
:Kaleun_Cheers:
those who have given Trump their vote, will most likely get hit the hardest by what is about to come down on America, and us all.
It's not as if there weren't warnings, but since they came from 'experts' and 'fake news' then it doesn't matter. If and when it does happen it'll all be the fault of Liberals / Muslims / Mexicans / Illegal immigrants / Canada / Saturday Night Live [Delete as appropriate] anyway. :03:
AVGWarhawk
02-13-17, 01:29 PM
It's not as if there weren't warnings, but since they came from 'experts' and 'fake news' then it doesn't matter. If and when it does happen it'll all be the fault of Liberals / Muslims / Mexicans / Illegal immigrants / Canada / Saturday Night Live [Delete as appropriate] anyway. :03:
Now you're thinking straight! :yeah:
A glimpse back in history on the subject of blind obstructionism:
http://www.politico.com/story/2010/10/the-gops-no-compromise-pledge-044311
Stone, glass houses, pots, kettles, etc, etc. ...
<O>
Jimbuna
02-13-17, 01:49 PM
25.000 postings. All beers on me!
:Kaleun_Cheers:
You'll do for me bonny lad!!
http://i.imgur.com/r4KXBZb.gif
Actually, the Tea Party/ Old Guard Republican is over and the Old Guard lost, If you don't believe me, look at who the Republicans elected to President, Their influence is waning, guys like Graham, McCain, McConnel, they'll be retiring soon.
The Democrats on the other hand, have an uphill battle, they suffer from group-think, and they tend to let emotions cloud their judgement. I don't see them being able to field a viable national candidate until 2024.
Then it's a rather sad state of affairs for the party of Lincoln, if rather than 'Four Score and Seven years ago' we get 'One Hundred and Forty Characters ago."
I agree with your assessment on the Dems though, they are going to take a while to repair, so unless Trump really drives the US into the dirt, they'll not be back to contention until 2024. In the meantime I think their goal will be to try and get one of the Houses back so they can play the Obama GOP game.
Rockin Robbins
02-13-17, 02:52 PM
The bill for the Trump effect starts to get footed.
Two years ago, the share of foreign, non-US holders of US treasuries, was around 55 or 56%. In the past weeks since the election and again since the inauguration, the biggest debtors of America, Japan and China, have started to sell their US treasuries drastically. By now, the share of foreign non-US holders of US treasuries has dropped to I red around 45, 46% . And this although US treasuries currently offer better interests than most other state's treasuries!
The US is dramatically depending on foreing money flushing into the debt-ridden US market. If this flow of fresh capital bogs down, Trump - and America - get problems. Serious problems.
I predict when US citizens in four years wil look at the financial math of their election decison last autumn, they will either not understand why what happened - or they will stare at it in shock and awe and will not believe it.
And let nobody tell you that the stockmarket are skyrocketing and the price indices are in stellar orbit. If you seriously believe that within a couple of years the value and worth of the real economy's companies and factories, services and products has multiplied by several factors like the stock values seem to imply, than nobody can help you.
Bubble game, round - which round are we in by now? I forgot.
Market is overheated, and hopelessly so. The central banks are pushing the bubbles around the globe like they play a ball on a football field, increasing them all the time. As I see it, by now anythign can happen just any time, in ten days, ten months or ten years - predictions have become impossible. Which describes a state of maximum uncertainty and unpredictability. And that means where you act on the grounds of what you believe is your stock market strategy, you indeed gamble. You can still win great money, yes - but not by reasonable long term strategy anymore, basing on past experiences that lead to the rules you read about - but mere luck.
And this is is not even already calculating in the crisis of the debt-papermoney as a failing system.
Trump may pull his show off, but in the end there will be coming a horrendous bill, much worse than the bill presented at the end of Reagan's reign - just on a much lower total level back then. Trump will add an exponent to it - or he crashlands already in the first half of his first term.
I recommend to stop investing for profit, and start to plan under the premise of that now is the time to start saving, protecting and conserving what you already have - to save it over the crisis coming, if possible. Small losses due to inflation you probably cannot void. Risk-free options are no longer existent as well. Have reserves so you can afford losses. If you haven't, may the Force be with you.
Once the shells start falling and the ground starts shaking, there is no safe place on the battlefield anymore. Nowhere.
Maybe it is just fair and just: those who have given Trump their vote, will most likely get hit the hardest by what is about to come down on America, and us all.
Wow, that is just pessimism from Mars having nothing at all to do with reality. We've heard from chicken littles for ten years now and they all just stop talking about their doom and gloom after awhile.
The fact is, all our nations are coming out of a time when socialists sold them a very smelly fish: that people could be GIVEN a standard of living. In fact everything is earned and NOTHING is given. Nothing is worth more than what you pay for it. Health care given to you is worthless, as millions of Americans and others around the world are realizing. Owning a house is not a right, and being given a loan against the evidence that you are unable to afford to pay it results in nothing but losing the house and some of the things you earned before you accepted the "loan."
So the economies of the West have had to recover from the "right to home ownership," "right to free health care," scams and have narrowly escaped the "right to free higher education" scam. All that needs to be paid for before our economies can again begin to grow.
But grow they will. No nation has recovered from a blow as serious as Germany, who opened their border with the former GDR, incurring tremendous expense. But now they are realizing the benefits of their reunification. Investment and expense comes first. Benefits follow later. There is no free lunch.
The future is bright. Following Germany's example, we will pay the price of prosperity.
Mr Quatro
02-13-17, 03:05 PM
I agree with your assessment on the Dems though, they are going to take a while to repair, so unless Trump really drives the US into the dirt, they'll not be back to contention until 2024. In the meantime I think their goal will be to try and get one of the Houses back so they can play the Obama GOP game.
That's all they can do ... have you noticed that the pre-election DNC with Hillary and the after election DNC without Hillary is basically the same?
All they can do is boo hoo what Trump is doing without any alternate choices :o
It's not as if there weren't warnings, but since they came from 'experts' and 'fake news' then it doesn't matter. If and when it does happen it'll all be the fault of Liberals / Muslims / Mexicans / Illegal immigrants / Canada / Saturday Night Live [Delete as appropriate] anyway. :03:It was precisely those reasons I voted for trump, the 2 party Partisan crap was getting stale, Who better to shake things up than a non-politically correct outsider. :) 3 weeks into the Trump administration, and I already got my moneys worth from my vote. I mean California's talking about seceding from the Union, as long as they give me 60day notice to vacate the state, they have my vote :D
That's all they can do ... have you noticed that the pre-election DNC with Hillary and the after election DNC without Hillary is basically the same?
All they can do is boo hoo what Trump is doing without any alternate choices :o
The rest of the chicken doesn't quite realise that the head has been removed yet. :03:
It was precisely those reasons I voted for trump, the 2 party Partisan crap was getting stale, Who better to shake things up than a non-politically correct outsider. :) 3 weeks into the Trump administration, and I already got my moneys worth from my vote. I mean California's talking about seceding from the Union, as long as they give me 60day notice to vacate the state, they have my vote :D
So basically you're bored of the house and want to set fire to it while you're still inside?
Seems sound. :yep:
Then it's a rather sad state of affairs for the party of Lincoln, if rather than 'Four Score and Seven years ago' we get 'One Hundred and Forty Characters ago."
I agree with your assessment on the Dems though, they are going to take a while to repair, so unless Trump really drives the US into the dirt, they'll not be back to contention until 2024. In the meantime I think their goal will be to try and get one of the Houses back so they can play the Obama GOP game.not really, Republican/democrat, those are 2 sides of the same coin, What the U.S. government needs is a new coin. and we just might get it with the Tea Party, Independents & Trump.
ikalugin
02-13-17, 03:23 PM
So basically you're bored of the house and want to set fire to it while you're still inside?
Seems sound. :yep:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efHCdKb5UWc
So basically you're bored of the house and want to set fire to it while you're still inside?
Seems sound. :yep:No, if I wanted to go that far, I'd be advocating insurrection. ;)
this is more like I have insufferable neighbors so I rented my house out to a drummer in a death metal band, and told them it was cool to practice in the garage. :yeah:
Jeff-Groves
02-13-17, 09:20 PM
this is more like I have insufferable neighbors so I rented my house out to a drummer in a death metal band, and told them it was cool to practice in the garage. :yeah:
Your a cold hearted SOB!!
:o
I think I like you.
:haha:
No, if I wanted to go that far, I'd be advocating insurrection. ;)
this is more like I have insufferable neighbors so I rented my house out to a drummer in a death metal band, and told them it was cool to practice in the garage. :yeah:
:haha:
I like that analogy.
I see the whole thing about the 'two party partisan crap' from time to time, and I kind of understand where you're coming from, and getting a non-career politician into the White House would be an admirable goal...but...he's the head of a multi-million dollar business, with very questionable business skills who seems to be having a few problems separating his new job from his old one.
He's essentially a career politician in all but name. :hmmm:
EDIT: Also, Flynn...wonder how deep the rabbit hole is going to go on this one....
About six feet it seems, and Flynn falls on his sword. Kellog, Petraeus or Harward up to the plate next.
Catfish
02-14-17, 02:38 AM
[...] this is more like I have insufferable neighbors so I rented my house out to a drummer in a death metal band, and told them it was cool to practice in the garage. :yeah:
:rotfl2::rotfl2:
Catfish
02-14-17, 03:06 AM
OT, but ..
Originally Posted by August http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2465541#post2465541)
"Right, because the war cost us nothing but a few guns and if you want to compare us to nazis then maybe you need to be reminded of that again."
We gave you our bases, we gave you $82.5m, and we gave you support in nearly every major war you have been in since 1945 (with the exception of Vietnam). At what point do you stop saying "If it wasn't for us..."? We get it, you helped us, we're grateful, but that does not colour any argument in the modern day.
Sry for being late, too much going on in this thread.
When just reading about the Suez crisis i read that here:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/mar/14/past.education1
" ... In reality, though, the sun had long since begun to sink over the British empire. The greatest possession of them all, the Indian subcontinent, had taken its freedom. Nationalist movements were flourishing in most of the rest, patronised by Soviet Russia and encouraged by the United States in its self-appointed role as leader of the free world. Britain itself was only beginning to emerge from postwar austerity, its public finances crushed by an accumulation of war debt. ..."
I had not heard about the US' role in UK colonial matters, but this makes sense. Sry for OT here, but thought this article was worth it.
:haha:
I like that analogy.
I see the whole thing about the 'two party partisan crap' from time to time, and I kind of understand where you're coming from, and getting a non-career politician into the White House would be an admirable goal...but...he's the head of a multi-million dollar business, with very questionable business skills who seems to be having a few problems separating his new job from his old one.
He's essentially a career politician in all but name. :hmmm:
EDIT: Also, Flynn...wonder how deep the rabbit hole is going to go on this one....
About six feet it seems, and Flynn falls on his sword. Kellog, Petraeus or Harward up to the plate next.Think on this, we have had 44 Presidents (not including Trump). Nary a one is listed as a Businessman as their primary occupation.
3 - Farmers
18 - Lawyers*
5 - Soldiers
3 - School Teachers
1 - Engineer
2 - Pilots
1 - Actor
2 - Writers/journalists
1 - football Player (served as president, never elected)
1 - Actor
1 - Community organizer
1 - Sailor
1 - Sheriff
1 - Public official (old speak for politician)
3 - Land Surveyors
*Grover Cleveland counted twice since he is both the 22nd & 24th president)
The executive Branch is tasked with implementing & managing whatever cockamamie idea that comes out of congress, (key word here is managing).
and given the size of the Federal government a Professional manager is what's needed.
Trump isn't mother Teresa or Ghandi, lets face it, his ego is bigger than flyover country, He is Brash, irreverent & larger than life,in other words the quintessential American. He didn't seek the Presidency because he thought he could make the world a better place, or out of a sense of duty to his country, or for money & power, He did it because he thinks he can do a better job than anyone else. He did it for the same reason Sir Hillary climbed Mt Everest, because he could.
Everyone is looking for external reasons as to why/how he now sits in the white house, Think about it, He won the Presidency and it cost him less than half of what it cost Clinton to lose, and he did it with halfhearted support from the GOP. Trump knows where he wants to go and how he wants to get there, (he just hasn't told the rest of us, except in general terms) Right now he's focused on putting his house in order, getting his people into place and giving them their orders. Once that's done, He'll clue the rest of us in on His Itinerary. I think it's the not knowing that's giving you kids the Heebie-jeebies. So sit back and enjoy the ride.
AVGWarhawk
02-14-17, 11:09 AM
The executive Branch is tasked with implementing & managing whatever cockamamie idea that comes out of congress, (key word here is managing).
and given the size of the Federal government a Professional manager is what's needed.
Trump isn't mother Teresa or Ghandi, lets face it, his ego is bigger than flyover country, He is Brash, irreverent & larger than life,in other words the quintessential American. He didn't seek the Presidency because he thought he could make the world a better place, or out of a sense of duty to his country, or for money & power, He did it because he thinks he can do a better job than anyone else. He did it for the same reason Sir Hillary climbed Mt Everest, because he could.
Everyone is looking for external reasons as to why/how he now sits in the white house, Think about it, He won the Presidency and it cost him less than half of what it cost Clinton to lose, and he did it with halfhearted support from the GOP. Trump knows where he wants to go and how he wants to get there, (he just hasn't told the rest of us, except in general terms) Right now he's focused on putting his house in order, getting his people into place and giving them their orders. Once that's done, He'll clue the rest of us in on His Itinerary. I think it's the not knowing that's giving you kids the Heebie-jeebies. So sit back and enjoy the ride.
In a nutshell. good post!
That's part of it, and the other part is how he acts, and what he says, just a quick look through his twitter account to get an idea of his mentality, and the way he is mixing his businesses with his new job.
One of his more recent tweets:
The real story here is why are there so many illegal leaks coming out of Washington? Will these leaks be happening as I deal on N.Korea etc?
Here's an idea Donald, don't do this:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/8268470-3x4-340x453.jpg
Bilge_Rat
02-14-17, 01:30 PM
Think on this, we have had 44 Presidents (not including Trump). Nary a one is listed as a Businessman as their primary occupation.
3 - Farmers
18 - Lawyers*
5 - Soldiers
3 - School Teachers
1 - Engineer
2 - Pilots
1 - Actor
2 - Writers/journalists
1 - football Player (served as president, never elected)
1 - Actor
1 - Community organizer
1 - Sailor
1 - Sheriff
1 - Public official (old speak for politician)
3 - Land Surveyors
*Grover Cleveland counted twice since he is both the 22nd & 24th president)
The executive Branch is tasked with implementing & managing whatever cockamamie idea that comes out of congress, (key word here is managing).
and given the size of the Federal government a Professional manager is what's needed.
Trump isn't mother Teresa or Ghandi, lets face it, his ego is bigger than flyover country, He is Brash, irreverent & larger than life,in other words the quintessential American. He didn't seek the Presidency because he thought he could make the world a better place, or out of a sense of duty to his country, or for money & power, He did it because he thinks he can do a better job than anyone else. He did it for the same reason Sir Hillary climbed Mt Everest, because he could.
Everyone is looking for external reasons as to why/how he now sits in the white house, Think about it, He won the Presidency and it cost him less than half of what it cost Clinton to lose, and he did it with halfhearted support from the GOP. Trump knows where he wants to go and how he wants to get there, (he just hasn't told the rest of us, except in general terms) Right now he's focused on putting his house in order, getting his people into place and giving them their orders. Once that's done, He'll clue the rest of us in on His Itinerary. I think it's the not knowing that's giving you kids the Heebie-jeebies. So sit back and enjoy the ride.
:agree:
Skybird
02-14-17, 02:36 PM
With Flynn gone, Putin's team mourns the loss of a good man. Maybe Conway can send the Kremlin some cheap condolences on sale?
Bilge_Rat
02-14-17, 02:50 PM
interesting take on the Flynn affair.
Eli Lake is a fairly liberal writer and usually anti-Trump so I was surprised by his analysis:
The Political Assassination of Michael Flynn
(...)
A better explanation here is that Flynn was just thrown under the bus. His tenure as national security adviser, the briefest in U.S. history, was rocky from the start. When Flynn was attacked in the media for his ties to Russia, he was not allowed by the White House to defend himself. Over the weekend, he was instructed not to speak to the press when he was in the fight for his political life. His staff was not even allowed to review the transcripts of his call to the Russian ambassador.
There is another component to this story as well -- as Trump himself just tweeted. It's very rare that reporters are ever told about government-monitored communications of U.S. citizens, let alone senior U.S. officials. The last story like this to hit Washington was in 2009 when Jeff Stein, then of CQ, reported on intercepted phone calls between a senior Aipac lobbyist and Jane Harman, who at the time was a Democratic member of Congress.
Normally intercepts of U.S. officials and citizens are some of the most tightly held government secrets. This is for good reason. Selectively disclosing details of private conversations monitored by the FBI or NSA gives the permanent state the power to destroy reputations from the cloak of anonymity. This is what police states do.
In the past it was considered scandalous for senior U.S. officials to even request the identities of U.S. officials incidentally monitored by the government (normally they are redacted from intelligence reports). John Bolton's nomination to be U.S. ambassador to the United Nations was derailed in 2006 after the NSA confirmed he had made 10 such requests when he was Undersecretary of State for Arms Control in George W. Bush's first term. The fact that the intercepts of Flynn's conversations with Kislyak appear to have been widely distributed inside the government is a red flag.
(...)
Flynn was a fat target for the national security state. He has cultivated a reputation as a reformer and a fierce critic of the intelligence community leaders he once served with when he was the director the Defense Intelligence Agency under President Barack Obama. Flynn was working to reform the intelligence-industrial complex, something that threatened the bureaucratic prerogatives of his rivals.
(...)
In normal times, the idea that U.S. officials entrusted with our most sensitive secrets would selectively disclose them to undermine the White House would alarm those worried about creeping authoritarianism. Imagine if intercepts of a call between Obama's incoming national security adviser and Iran's foreign minister leaked to the press before the nuclear negotiations began? The howls of indignation would be deafening.
In the end, it was Trump's decision to cut Flynn loose. In doing this he caved in to his political and bureaucratic opposition. Nunes told me Monday night that this will not end well. "First it's Flynn, next it will be Kellyanne Conway, then it will be Steve Bannon, then it will be Reince Priebus," he said. Put another way, Flynn is only the appetizer. Trump is the entree.
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-02-14/the-political-assassination-of-michael-flynn
So it's not that he broke the rules that's bad, it's that he was caught. :hmmm:
ikalugin
02-14-17, 03:02 PM
So it's not that he broke the rules that's bad, it's that he was caught. :hmmm:
The narrative there is simple - evill establishment undermines Trump by attacking his staff. So it is not about the person in question being cought it is about the information about it being leaked as a way to undermine Trump.
The narrative there is simple - evill establishment undermines Trump by attacking his staff. So it is not about the person in question being cought it is about the information about it being leaked as a way to undermine Trump.
True, but what about questions of transparency? I mean, look at the wikileaks emails scandal, many would argue that it was a good thing that we had that look into the framework of a potential presidential candidate, even though it was incredibly damaging to the Clinton campaign, and therefore in a flipside, it must be good that we have a look into the framework of the president of the United States even if it is damaging to him.
Skybird
02-14-17, 03:52 PM
The truth maybe is simplier than most think. Trump has arranged a band of biting dogs around him, and dogs bite dogs. That easy. Flynn was assassinated by parts of Trump's team rivalling for and with his position of national security adviser. - However, there is no loss. None of the people Trump has collected in his circle would be worth to shed tears about them going amiss. Also, if youremember, Trump managed to bring the intel apparatus up against him short while ago. Just walking into Langely and tell the cameras that the CIA is great, does not cut it if you have made your own staff and intel service your enemy. There are four dozen secret services in the US, I think. And some of them now maybe think they have some bills to settle with their boss.
Platapus
02-14-17, 05:49 PM
The narrative there is simple - evill establishment undermines Trump by attacking his staff. So it is not about the person in question being cought it is about the information about it being leaked as a way to undermine Trump.
Poor Trump. Clearly the most maligned president in our history. I am sure he will build a safe area in the white house.
The media really needs to have trigger warnings for Trump.
u crank
02-14-17, 05:55 PM
The truth maybe is simplier than most think. Trump has arranged a band of biting dogs around him, and dogs bite dogs. That easy. Flynn was assassinated by parts of Trump's team rivalling for and with his position of national security adviser.
Really? I'd be interested in the details of that story.
Skybird
02-14-17, 06:30 PM
Priebus versus Bannon, Bannon versus Priebus, Pence versus both - that is no secret. And that are just the most obvious sharks biting around. The team Trump has build, is chaotic, and driven by very amibitioned personal power agendas, many of them are political amateurs including Trump himself, the pressure build by Trump to achieve as many perceived "successes" in as shortest time as possible has caused the White House to accept making itself many new enemies in the bureaucratic and diplomatic structures that every government depends on (except Trump's, of course, thinks Trump) and has caused chaos and Trump scoring several defeats already. Even law enforcement says the wall will not work. The car prodruction and sales policy chnages he demands, will not work. His fiscal basis is under fire by Japan and China. The immigration ban gets burried by the courts. None of his decrees so far, put onto the screen with plenty of macho and posing a la Putin, has the substance to last or to cause lasting effects, its all a smoke screen, a short-living fireworks so far. - As I said some weeks ago: Trump will mean most perfect soap entertainment, and many cups, discs and windows getting broken. I have ordered an abonement for popcorn, in daily XL-size boxes.
Trump is like a small boy having seen some Hollywood movies about Rome and about Al Capone, and now thinks if he acts with those poses and gestures, he would become a second Caesar or Al Capone. If he could, he would have blond bombshells in short skirts forming his secret service, and on parades he would throw gold coins out of his rolling car'S window. That is governing for him.
Nobody does it like Hollywood. Washington, I mean.
He will get bogged down - by instiotutions, by the establishment, by his own party that he dispises anyway, since he knows no political loyalties at all. The republicans are about to realise that currently - that he is NOT one of them.
Putin is learnign the lesson currently, too, it seems. There is said to be some excitement in the Kremlin since Trump demanded that the Crimean must go back to the Ukraine. That was not what the Tzar has hoped for, I'm sure.
An opponent not knowing how to play chess, will not play by the rules, sinc ehe cannot play by the rules - he does not know them. Masters can occasionally get surprised by the chaotic moves these dilletantees then put on the board and that are beyond all calculation, are random chaos. And that is what happens to Putin currently. :har:
u crank
02-14-17, 07:02 PM
Flynn was assassinated by parts of Trump's team rivalling for and with his position of national security adviser. .
Priebus versus Bannon, Bannon versus Priebus, Pence versus both - that is no secret.
None of those people are being considered for the position of national security adviser. Most likely candidate is Vice Adm. Robert S. Harward.
u crank
02-14-17, 07:19 PM
He will get bogged down - by instiotutions, by the establishment, by his own party that he dispises anyway, since he knows no political loyalties at all. The republicans are about to realise that currently - that he is NOT one of them.
These 'Republicans' are Members of Congress. They have to get re elected at some point. The representatives in less than two years. Being seen as opposing programs that their elected President wants to implement will not sit well with the voters who elected him. It's politics 101.
Skybird
02-14-17, 08:25 PM
None of those people are being considered for the position of national security adviser. Most likely candidate is Vice Adm. Robert S. Harward.
Its not about owning the seat Flynn was sitting on. Its about having his views no longer getting in their ways. Very old game in the WH: the place of warrying departments and functions and offices. - And Trump never was a Republican by conviction, it means nothign to him, its all just sound and shadow to him. Trump is a business man, a deal maker in his own words, an opportunist. Do not be fooled by his party membership - it means NOTHING. Not before he became POTUS (he repeatedly changed his party membership, four times so far, whenever he had legal problems he entered the party that at that time was most likely to be of use to him), and not now while he is POTUS. There is only one party Trump is loyal to - himself, his businesses, maybe his family and their deals. Everything else is just show.
u crank
02-14-17, 08:39 PM
...And Trump never was a Republican by conviction,
I think that is one of the reasons why he was elected. :D
If Obama is concerned about the border, he should stop vacationing. Gov't will save millions which it can use to stop illegal migration.
Guess it's a good thing that Donald would never dream of going to a resort he owns three times in a month at a multi-million dollar expense to the taxpayer. That would be incredibly hypocritical. :yep:
u crank
02-14-17, 08:56 PM
Guess it's a good thing that Donald would never dream of going to a resort he owns three times in a month at a multi-million dollar expense to the taxpayer. That would be incredibly hypocritical. :yep:
As long as he has his phone with him, I don't see a problem. :D
Rockin Robbins
02-14-17, 09:03 PM
Priebus versus Bannon, Bannon versus Priebus, Pence versus both - that is no secret. And that are just the most obvious sharks biting around. The team Trump has build, is chaotic, and driven by very amibitioned personal power agendas, many of them are political amateurs including Trump himself, the pressure build by Trump to achieve as many perceived "successes" in as shortest time as possible has caused the White House to accept making itself many new enemies in the bureaucratic and diplomatic structures that every government depends on (except Trump's, of course, thinks Trump) and has caused chaos and Trump scoring several defeats already. Even law enforcement says the wall will not work. The car prodruction and sales policy chnages he demands, will not work. His fiscal basis is under fire by Japan and China. The immigration ban gets burried by the courts. None of his decrees so far, put onto the screen with plenty of macho and posing a la Putin, has the substance to last or to cause lasting effects, its all a smoke screen, a short-living fireworks so far. - As I said some weeks ago: Trump will mean most perfect soap entertainment, and many cups, discs and windows getting broken. I have ordered an abonement for popcorn, in daily XL-size boxes.
Trump is like a small boy having seen some Hollywood movies about Rome and about Al Capone, and now thinks if he acts with those poses and gestures, he would become a second Caesar or Al Capone. If he could, he would have blond bombshells in short skirts forming his secret service, and on parades he would throw gold coins out of his rolling car'S window. That is governing for him.
Nobody does it like Hollywood. Washington, I mean.
He will get bogged down - by instiotutions, by the establishment, by his own party that he dispises anyway, since he knows no political loyalties at all. The republicans are about to realise that currently - that he is NOT one of them.
Putin is learnign the lesson currently, too, it seems. There is said to be some excitement in the Kremlin since Trump demanded that the Crimean must go back to the Ukraine. That was not what the Tzar has hoped for, I'm sure.
An opponent not knowing how to play chess, will not play by the rules, sinc ehe cannot play by the rules - he does not know them. Masters can occasionally get surprised by the chaotic moves these dilletantees then put on the board and that are beyond all calculation, are random chaos. And that is what happens to Putin currently. :har:
Someone in Germany has bought the Democrats' caricature of Donald Trump as comic book villian and fool. Someone in Germany is about to learn a lesson. Some great administrators create a chaotic environment because that is how they feel comfortable. Hospital emergency rooms are such places. The right personality type is very effective there. It is not proper to accuse them of lunacy. Someone with orderly thought processes and a high regard for procedure would die there. Brilliance comes in many different flavors. It is not German to think in that way, but it is correct.
Watch what people accomplish. Don't watch their style for clues on their effectiveness. Particularly, don't underestimate someone whose management style differs from that you are familiar with. Trump has been underestimated and impugned at every step. He has been victorious at every step.
Sometime or other, those who do not understand him should stop, watch and perhaps learn.
I'm reminded of an American racecar driver who enrolled in a German driving school for a certain track in Germany. The German instructors lead eveyone around the track on foot pointing out zis is vere you brake, turn in here, apex of the turn is here.....etc for every turn on the track. The American, of course, ignored all of the jabbering but read the track for himself. When they went out to actually run the track, the American was a full second faster than all the other students. And the German instructor was lecturing him on how he didn't know how to run the track because his brake points, turn in points and apexes weren't according to his expert instruction. Never occurred to the instructor to stop, watch and learn.
Buddahaid
02-14-17, 09:51 PM
As long as he has his phone with him, I don't see a problem. :D
I see what you did there. :arrgh!:
Someone in Germany Some great administrators create a chaotic environment because that is how they feel comfortable.
Someone in Germany had a fantastically chaotic environment, he had each of his departments working against each other, trying to backstab the other guy in order to climb above him, making up little white lies in order to impress the boss, and disgrace their competitor.
It...didn't work out so well.
Someone in Germany had a fantastically chaotic environment, he had each of his departments working against each other, trying to backstab the other guy in order to climb above him, making up little white lies in order to impress the boss, and disgrace their competitor.
It...didn't work out so well.
You've been leaning quite heavily on Godwin these days Oberon.
Mr Quatro
02-14-17, 11:33 PM
Smart money is watching the White House situation closer than we are. So far they are making money. :yep:
What is a Smart Money Investor?
You may have heard the terminology smart money thrown around from time to time. Do you know what it means? Well let me assure you that in the context of investing, it has nothing to do with how knowledgeable, bright or intelligent you are.
dumb or smart money investor Smart money refers to money that is invested by financial professionals. These would be people on the inside of the industry whose profession it is to investigate, learn about and track the trends of stocks and the market in general.
They pour over company financial statements. They calculate PE ratios. They analyze the labor markets and scrutinize government policy. These people immerse themselves everyday with endeavors like these in an effort to anticipate the future direction of stocks.
So when the headline reads the smart money is getting out of the bull market what it’s really saying is that the analysis of these financial professionals has led them to conclude there is risk of a major market correction. Not wanting their clients to lose any money, they advise them to sell stock investments. When the market corrects (goes down) they can buy back in at a lower price point.
In that regard the smart money is routinely moving money in and out of the stock market in order to achieve the highest possible return. It’s very focused on what the market is doing on a day-by-day, week-by-week and month-by-month basis.
http://luke1428.com/this-is-the-difference-between-a-smart-and-dumb-money-investor/
You've been leaning quite heavily on Godwin these days Oberon.
I know, I know, and probably over-using it in some cases, but in this instance it was the main governmental example that came to mind which had such a chaotic inner structure which ultimately did it more harm than good. I mean, if there's a non-Godwin example which fits the point I'm trying to make then I'm fully open to it. I'm not calling them Nazis in this instance (I'm sure that'll come later, it's not past breakfast yet :O:) but saying that having a chaotic administration environment is not always a good idea, sure from time to time having a little shake-up here and there probably does help, but having chaos from the start and now into the third week...not good, it's not going to create an atmosphere of co-ordination and co-operation, but one of distrust and aggravation, of 'alternate facts', and that's not a thing you want in the highest office of the land.
ikalugin
02-15-17, 01:46 AM
True, but what about questions of transparency? I mean, look at the wikileaks emails scandal, many would argue that it was a good thing that we had that look into the framework of a potential presidential candidate, even though it was incredibly damaging to the Clinton campaign, and therefore in a flipside, it must be good that we have a look into the framework of the president of the United States even if it is damaging to him.
It is that whole fighting the establishment thing in the narrative. In that narrative you could see an example of an equivalent event - with Iranians.
In my opinion a better comparison would be older wikileaks stuff.
Poor Trump. Clearly the most maligned president in our history. I am sure he will build a safe area in the white house.
The media really needs to have trigger warnings for Trump.
Maybe :), maybe Trump would need to issue trigger warnings for the media. In any case it would be most amusing to observe.
ikalugin
02-15-17, 02:01 AM
Amusing strip
(warning, strong language at the bottom)
http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/116/276/405.png
ikalugin
02-15-17, 03:27 AM
http://freebeacon.com/national-security/former-obama-officials-loyalists-waged-campaign-oust-flynn/
More to the narrative. Note how it focuses on the Iran deal.
http://observer.com/2017/02/donald-trump-administration-mike-flynn-russian-embassy/
And yet more to the narrative.
Catfish
02-15-17, 03:36 AM
You've been leaning quite heavily on Godwin these days Oberon.
Only very indirectly (ahem) :D
My take is that the D's inspiration comes from Henry VIIIth.
Not that he forbid football yet.
Skybird
02-15-17, 06:58 AM
Someone in Germany has bought the Democrats' caricature of Donald Trump as comic book villian and fool. Someone in Germany is about to learn a lesson. Some great administrators create a chaotic environment because that is how they feel comfortable. Hospital emergency rooms are such places. The right personality type is very effective there. It is not proper to accuse them of lunacy. Someone with orderly thought processes and a high regard for procedure would die there. Brilliance comes in many different flavors. It is not German to think in that way, but it is correct.
Watch what people accomplish. Don't watch their style for clues on their effectiveness. Particularly, don't underestimate someone whose management style differs from that you are familiar with. Trump has been underestimated and impugned at every step. He has been victorious at every step.
Sometime or other, those who do not understand him should stop, watch and perhaps learn.
I'm reminded of an American racecar driver who enrolled in a German driving school for a certain track in Germany. The German instructors lead eveyone around the track on foot pointing out zis is vere you brake, turn in here, apex of the turn is here.....etc for every turn on the track. The American, of course, ignored all of the jabbering but read the track for himself. When they went out to actually run the track, the American was a full second faster than all the other students. And the German instructor was lecturing him on how he didn't know how to run the track because his brake points, turn in points and apexes weren't according to his expert instruction. Never occurred to the instructor to stop, watch and learn.
You really lost it there, mate. ;)
The Trump/Kremlin connection was news long before Trump entered the White House and, as further investigations unfold, the number of non-salacious allegations contained in the now infamous UK spy's dossier, and now beginning to flesh out, appear to be growing and further corroborated. In the 2016 US Presidential elections thread, on Jul 28 2016, I posted links to two articles detailing Trump/Kremlin ties:
Trump’s claim that ‘I have nothing to do with Russia’ (27 Jul 2016) --
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/07/27/trumps-claim-that-i-have-nothing-to-do-with-russia/
Inside Trump’s financial ties to Russia and his unusual flattery of Vladimir Putin (17 Jun 2016) --
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/inside-trumps-financial-ties-to-russia-and-his-unusual-flattery-of-vladimir-putin/2016/06/17/dbdcaac8-31a6-11e6-8ff7-7b6c1998b7a0_story.html
One aspect of the FBI investigations into the dossier is rather interesting: the FBI has been in contact with the sources cited by the dossier's compiler. If the FBI establishes the veracity of the allegation with source data, the implications for the Trump White House could be very serious, indeed...
Even without the allegations in the dossier, the connections between Trump, his business associates, his campaign and White house advisors, and others in his circle with counterparts in Russia are wide and concerning. This was baggage he carried into the White House and for which he must account; the idea of a US President either being beholden to a foreign government or trying to personally profit from the use of his office is something that should be intolerable to US citizens and their representatives.
Two more recent links:
The timeline of Trump's ties with Russia lines up with allegations of conspiracy and misconduct (11 Feb 2017) --
http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-russia-ties-michael-flynn-dossier-2017-2
Intelligence officials: Trump aides spoke with Russian officials during campaign (15 Feb 2017) --
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2017/02/15/Trump-aides-in-communication-with-Russian-officials-during-campaign/2081487151391/
I agree with those who suggest the anger of Trump and his minions regarding the breaking news of the allegations is more due to being caught pants down than any rage of innocence; their reactions remind me of how when police departments set up stings to stop drivers operating unsafely, you usually see the ticketed driver huffing and puffing in rage and demanding why the police aren't going after 'real criminals'; the drivers can't deny or defend their transgressions nor the dangers their actions pose, so they try to deflect and distract and defame the police who were, after all, only doing their sworn duty...
<O>
ikalugin
02-15-17, 07:31 AM
the number of non-salacious allegations contained in the now infamous UK spy's dossierYou do realise that this "dossier" was, ehem, made up slander?
Catfish
02-15-17, 07:38 AM
Amusing strip ...
:haha: :up:
Rockin Robbins
02-15-17, 07:43 AM
Poor Trump. Clearly the most maligned president in our history. I am sure he will build a safe area in the white house.
The media really needs to have trigger warnings for Trump.
No, Trump is nowhere near the most maligned president in history. Abraham Lincoln was, by a country mile. The things that were told against Lincoln made everyone's treatment of Trump look polite.
There's a lesson there too.
Rockin Robbins
02-15-17, 07:52 AM
You really lost it there, mate. ;)
And if you ever want to see chaos, spend a little time in a hospital emergency room, a police dispatching area, a hurricane disaster site, a battle during war. People of Trump's management style thrive there. People of orderly and polite management styles cry and quit.
Look at the results. Do not judge people based on what others say, or whether they are different from you. That is what conservatives are falsely characterized to do.
Also, those of you who smell blood in the water better look closely at Flynn's career. He's a multiple times Obama appoinee and was Obama's man when the alleged impropriety took place. The trail leads to Obama, not Trump.
And Oberon, you're smart enough to know this because your "analogy" was purposeful distortion and distraction, but for the benefit of others, there is a very large difference between saying an effective person has a chaotic management style and saying that every person with a chaotic management style is effective, even your hero.
You do realise that this "dossier" was, ehem, made up slander?
You do realize, ahem, several of the allegations have been substantiated by the FBI who have contacted and interviewed the cited sources in the dossier, and you do realize, ahem, the corroborated information regarding Flynn in the dossier was the principal impetus for his resignation? The 'salacious' bits may be false; I doubt any of those sources will be willing to corroborate. The dossier has received serious scrutiny due to the fact the compiler is a respected former MI6 intelligence agent who has an excellent reputation within intelligence communities inside and outside the UK. He is not a flighty 'conspiracy nut' or tin-foil hatter; his reputation is probably the main reason anyone thought the matter deserved further investigation and, so far, the portions of the dossier the FBI have investigated have borne out the allegations; what the rest might pan out remains to be seen, but what has been made public does not bode well for many in Trump's circle and, possibly, for Trump himself. Where there's smoke, there's fire and this Trump/Kremlin situation has all the earmarks of a major blaze. Perhaps Trump can deflect and distract from the situation by finally appointing a special prosecutor to investigate Hillary Clinton's e-mail servers, one of the many campaign promises he has failed to act upon. Desperate times call for desperate measures...
... ahem ...
<O>
Onkel Neal
02-15-17, 08:13 AM
And if you ever want to see chaos, spend a little time in a hospital emergency room, a police dispatching area, a hurricane disaster site, a battle during war. People of Trump's management style thrive there. People of orderly and polite management styles cry and quit.
Look at the results. Do not judge people based on what others say, or whether they are different from you. That is what conservatives are falsely characterized to do.
Also, those of you who smell blood in the water better look closely at Flynn's career. He's a multiple times Obama appoinee and was Obama's man when the alleged impropriety took place. The trail leads to Obama, not Trump.
And Oberon, you're smart enough to know this because your "analogy" was purposeful distortion and distraction, but for the benefit of others, there is a very large difference between saying an effective person has a chaotic management style and saying that every person with a chaotic management style is effective, even your hero.
Well, Trump was smart enough to win the nomination and the election. People (me included) said he wouldn't achieve anything more than comic relief in the political arena.
Catfish
02-15-17, 08:17 AM
I guess we were all a bit surprised, and then concerned, about T.'s election.
Well now Trump said he wants Russia/Putin to give the Crimea back to the Ukraine :hmmm:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-ukraine-idUSKBN15T2IY
Onkel Neal
02-15-17, 08:19 AM
I'm still trying to accept the reality. Every time I hear "President Trump" I laugh. Then shake my head slowly. WTH? :k_confused:
Oh well, if he keeps his campaign promises, I can live with it.
Onkel Neal
02-15-17, 08:20 AM
Also, I want to applaud all of you for keeping this thread in control. Amazing that we can have so many people with differing opinions and still retain a civil discussion. :Kaleun_Applaud:
...
Also, those of you who smell blood in the water better look closely at Flynn's career. He's a multiple times Obama appoinee and was Obama's man when the alleged impropriety took place. The trail leads to Obama, not Trump.
...
So, basically, you're saying Trump exhibited extremely poor judgement in appointing Flynn in the first place? With this I agree; extremely poor judgement and extremely poor leadership: why, after being told about Flynn's transgressions, including lying to the FBI, a Federal felony, weeks before, did Trump not act and demand the resignation of Flynn immediately? Did Trump wish to avoid yet another embarrassment to his administration and to himself, personally? Not a shining example of leadership skills. It should be also noted that while Obama did have Flynn in his administration, he also did not hesitate to fire Flynn from the DIA Directorship when Flynn flaked and Obama took heat for what was probably the right action. And your statement Flynn "was Obama's man when the alleged impropriety took place" is highly suspect if only for the fact Obama fired Flynn in 2014 and the "impropriety" occurred in 2016 making your claim a broad bit of a reach...
So, with all of Flynn's flaw's you note in your post, including his being "Obama's man", Trump made a 'genius' decision and appointed Flynn to the extremely sensitive post of National Security Advisor; he even made the following glowing praise in his official statement about Flynn's appointment:
“I am pleased that Lieutenant General Michael Flynn will be by my side as we work to defeat radical Islamic terrorism, navigate geopolitical challenges and keep Americans safe at home and abroad,” Trump said in a statement. “General Flynn is one of the country’s foremost experts on military and intelligence matters and he will be an invaluable asset to me and my administration.”
Yeah, Trump really showed his ability to judge character and to thoroughly vet those with whom he would work most closely and personally. If Trump was stupid enough to appoint someone you yourself disparage for being "Obama's man", just how much can we trust any of his other decisions? You can try to deflect and distract by trying to lay some questionable blame on Obama, but this particular buffoonish boondoggle rests at the feet of Trump and Trump alone...
<O>
Skybird
02-15-17, 08:52 AM
And if you ever want to see chaos, spend a little time in a hospital emergency room, a police dispatching area, a hurricane disaster site, a battle during war. People of Trump's management style thrive there. People of orderly and polite management styles cry and quit.
Look at the results. Do not judge people based on what others say, or whether they are different from you. That is what conservatives are falsely characterized to do.
Also, those of you who smell blood in the water better look closely at Flynn's career. He's a multiple times Obama appoinee and was Obama's man when the alleged impropriety took place. The trail leads to Obama, not Trump.
And Oberon, you're smart enough to know this because your "analogy" was purposeful distortion and distraction, but for the benefit of others, there is a very large difference between saying an effective person has a chaotic management style and saying that every person with a chaotic management style is effective, even your hero.
I look at the results indeed, Robbins. I see a lot of glorious actionism and big mouthed words, poses on pictures, decrees that miss their point and have mostly no lasting durability, I see scandals, first cabinet member already gone after not even one month, plenty of reason to fear nepotism, a president in repeated confusion and lacking information, I see CHAOS. And lots of dilletantism. Trump misleads the people with loud words and glorious gesture. He blends. And in that he indeed excels, he found the tone that hits the marks. But it all is empty symbolism so far. Trump currently learns that reality is far more complex than his Hollywood-script has revealed to him that it would be. - Enjoy the show, you seem to enjoy it a lot. So do I, I get perfectly entertained. But one thing is certain: this show will not last forever, and the bill with the costs presented at the end will scare you, and us, and everybody. Except maybe the Trumps' businesses and that of their friends. Trenches in American society are deepening. - I currently read that book I referred to twice now, on comparing the situation between the EU today, and the decline of the first roman republic. Brilliant book, btw, that guy is SMART, in capital letters. What has not been objct of his analysis is the parallel between the Us today and the fall of the Roman republic - and while reading the book now, I currently think "USA" as often as I think "EU". The kind of conflicts in the era between Sulla and Octavian (Augustus), and their parallels to our present, are breathtaking, so are the parallels in both era's roots and origins, the social conflicts, the political rivalries, the nature and identity of the rivalling factions and families. Stunning, absolutely stunning. We have been there, we have been through all this before , nothing in our present's political events is new.
And if you ever want to see chaos, spend a little time in a hospital emergency room, a police dispatching area, a hurricane disaster site, a battle during war. People of Trump's management style thrive there. People of orderly and polite management styles cry and quit.
Look at the results. Do not judge people based on what others say, or whether they are different from you. That is what conservatives are falsely characterized to do.
Also, those of you who smell blood in the water better look closely at Flynn's career. He's a multiple times Obama appoinee and was Obama's man when the alleged impropriety took place. The trail leads to Obama, not Trump.
And Oberon, you're smart enough to know this because your "analogy" was purposeful distortion and distraction, but for the benefit of others, there is a very large difference between saying an effective person has a chaotic management style and saying that every person with a chaotic management style is effective, even your hero. Has anybody considered that Flynn/Russians is/was Trumps stalking horse?
Funny take on the Flynn situation by Stephen Colbert:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwHzThU4X_4
<O>
ikalugin
02-15-17, 11:20 AM
You do realize, ahem, several of the allegations have been substantiated by the FBI who have contacted and interviewed the cited sources in the dossier, and you do realize, ahem, the corroborated information regarding Flynn in the dossier was the principal impetus for his resignation?
Which doesn't make the dosier valid. Regarding the parts that (according to you) are substantiated by the FBI, would you care to enlighten me regarding their content?
The principal impetus for Flynn's resignation was the leaked data, with the leak being both dammaging (to US foreighn policy) and motivated by internal political factors. But I guess the next time Democratic party tries to pull of something like the Iran deal, or threaten 3rd parties with the use of strategic offensive weapons that would be conveniently leaked.
The report itself does not pass any scrutiny (did you even read it?) nor is it's author authorative as you claim.
Mr Quatro
02-15-17, 11:32 AM
So, basically, you're saying Trump exhibited extremely poor judgement in appointing Flynn in the first place? With this I agree; extremely poor judgement and extremely poor leadership: why, after being told about Flynn's transgressions, including lying to the FBI, a Federal felony, weeks before, did Trump not act and demand the resignation of Flynn immediately? Did Trump wish to avoid yet another embarrassment to his administration and to himself, personally? Not a shining example of leadership skills. It should be also noted that while Obama did have Flynn in his administration, he also did not hesitate to fire Flynn from the DIA Directorship when Flynn flaked and Obama took heat for what was probably the right action. And your statement Flynn "was Obama's man when the alleged impropriety took place" is highly suspect if only for the fact Obama fired Flynn in 2014 and the "impropriety" occurred in 2016 making your claim a broad bit of a reach...
So, with all of Flynn's flaw's you note in your post, including his being "Obama's man", Trump made a 'genius' decision and appointed Flynn to the extremely sensitive post of National Security Advisor; he even made the following glowing praise in his official statement about Flynn's appointment:
Yeah, Trump really showed his ability to judge character and to thoroughly vet those with whom he would work most closely and personally. If Trump was stupid enough to appoint someone you yourself disparage for being "Obama's man", just how much can we trust any of his other decisions? You can try to deflect and distract by trying to lay some questionable blame on Obama, but this particular buffoonish boondoggle rests at the feet of Trump and Trump alone...
<O>
Remember in the bible when the big storm came up on the Med when Jonah was trying to run away from God's orders to go to Nineveh and the fisherman threw Jonah overboard to save the boat?
I think that's what happen :yep:
but in this case the storm is not over yet and more fishermen might be thrown in :yep:
ikalugin
02-15-17, 11:43 AM
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/831846101179314177?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
Wow, that normalisation stage we normally have when a new POTUS gets elected was awfully short.
Schroeder
02-15-17, 11:45 AM
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/831846101179314177?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
Wow, that normalisation stage we normally have when a new POTUS gets elected was awfully short.
And here I thought Hillary wasn't voted for because she was saber rattling against Russia....:yeah:
ikalugin
02-15-17, 11:49 AM
And here I thought Hillary wasn't voted for because she was saber rattling against Russia....:yeah:
I mean that sort of thing happened with Obama and Bush and Clinton, but this time it was pretty damn quick.
Rockin Robbins
02-15-17, 11:59 AM
I look at the results indeed, Robbins. I see a lot of glorious actionism and big mouthed words, poses on pictures, decrees that miss their point and have mostly no lasting durability, I see scandals, first cabinet member already gone after not even one month, plenty of reason to fear nepotism, a president in repeated confusion and lacking information, I see CHAOS. And lots of dilletantism. Trump misleads the people with loud words and glorious gesture. He blends. And in that he indeed excels, he found the tone that hits the marks. But it all is empty symbolism so far. Trump currently learns that reality is far more complex than his Hollywood-script has revealed to him that it would be. - Enjoy the show, you seem to enjoy it a lot. So do I, I get perfectly entertained. But one thing is certain: this show will not last forever, and the bill with the costs presented at the end will scare you, and us, and everybody. Except maybe the Trumps' businesses and that of their friends. Trenches in American society are deepening. - I currently read that book I referred to twice now, on comparing the situation between the EU today, and the decline of the first roman republic. Brilliant book, btw, that guy is SMART, in capital letters. What has not been objct of his analysis is the parallel between the Us today and the fall of the Roman republic - and while reading the book now, I currently think "USA" as often as I think "EU". The kind of conflicts in the era between Sulla and Octavian (Augustus), and their parallels to our present, are breathtaking, so are the parallels in both era's roots and origins, the social conflicts, the political rivalries, the nature and identity of the rivalling factions and families. Stunning, absolutely stunning. We have been there, we have been through all this before , nothing in our present's political events is new.
Trump is certainly not guaranteed to be successful. However, characterizing Flynn's resignation as a takedown of a Trump crony is totally false. Flynn is a Democrat. He was appointed three or four times by Obama and merely retained by Trump. Flynn in no way identifies with Trump, nor is he a Trump supporter, nor is he or was he any part of the inner workings (or even the outer workings) of the Trump administration. He was an Obama appointee. Trump, perhaps unwisely, you can never tell when someone will jump the shark, reappointed him. Remember that Obama reappointed Secretary of Defense, Robert Gates. If Robert Gates had been fired for employing an illegal alien, would that have reflected badly on President Obama? Of course not. And this case is the same, having no reflection on President Trump except in the minds of the inventive press, seeking anything, even nothing, to bring down Trump. In their minds the end justifies the means and they will go to any length to eliminate Trump. For that reason a great deal of scepticism is proper in reading their polemics.
For the time being, since the press no longer reports news (journalism is dead) and is merely an advocate of the left, the Trump is in a defensive position. They don't need to stay there, they need to act. They need to triangulate the expat corporations whose money is overseas in countries seeking to snag their assets with empty cities who have lost ther economic cores and with citizens of those rotten cities who have no honest way to make a living. If he can make a tough deal with those corporations to come home to the rotten cities and employ those who live there now, and if he accomplishes nothing else for eight years, he will be the most successful president since Reagan and Franklin Roosevelt.
There's no guarantee of anything, either good or bad. There IS a guarantee that the left and their willing accomplices in the former press will fight anything Trump does, good or bad. Trump is going to have to forget being nice and just do things without approval from those who would not approve a cure for cancer if it came from the wrong place.
As for linking Octavian and Sulla with the demise of the Roman Republic, don't make me laugh. Julius killed the Roman Republic long before Octavian and Sulla ever had those parties with their private armies that make any comparisons of their dealings with any modern events a farce. There IS no parallel. The times were too different. Nobody fights each other with private armies any more. No economy is entirely dependent on slaves for its worth any more. Trying to make analogies between the Roman Empire, Roman Republic and European Union or American politics is just smoke and mirrors with no lessons to learn, nothing real to contemplate.
Rome was a despotic entity which prospered due to slaves produced by military conquest. No such entity (thank God) exists today, anywhere.
Mr Quatro
02-15-17, 12:00 PM
I mean that sort of thing happened with Obama and Bush and Clinton, but this time it was pretty damn quick.
Give Trump a break and realize how many people are mad and angry at this rich POTUS.
The DNC
The CIA
The NSA
The FBI
The news media including non main stream news media
Pro choice
Education and welfare
The Muslim's on restricted access to the USA list
The Red Chinese and the blue Chinese too
even Mitch McConnell, Senate majority leader for the GOP is fed up with Trump and said,
"I didn't think President Trump had a chance in hell of winning."
I can't think of any others :o
Bilge_Rat
02-15-17, 12:06 PM
..so how does all this end? with President Mike Pence?
I don't mind, he is a lot more conservative than Trump. :ping:
ikalugin
02-15-17, 12:09 PM
..so how does all this end? with President Mike Pence?
I don't mind, he is a lot more conservative than Trump. :ping:
Pence is the faildeadly if you know what I mean.
Rockin Robbins
02-15-17, 12:30 PM
Remember in the bible when the big storm came up on the Med when Jonah was trying to run away from God's orders to go to Nineveh and the fisherman threw Jonah overboard to save the boat?
I think that's what happen :yep:
but in this case the storm is not over yet and more fishermen might be thrown in :yep:
And remember that the non-elected government is full of people appointed by past administrations, who continue in their rolls of working for who appointed them regardless of the present administration. This has been true forever. It is a practical impossibility to routinely fire everybody, hundreds of thousands of people in all government agencies, to replace them with those loyal to the present administration.
That used to be done you know. It was so inefficient, jobs ceased to be done, administrations were bogged down with the task of completely replacing the entire civil service. Naturally, that could not be done with any degree of competence and the impossible job kept those administrations from accomplishing anything until the civil service jobs were filled. The new system is better, but does result in the equivalent of moles riddled throughout every function of government, sabotaging those things they don't like, or in the case of certain Justice Department lawyers, incompetently pleading the case of Trump's travel moratorium.
A result of the "professionalism" of the Civil Service has been that they do not work for the President. There are positives and negatives associated with that fact. One of the negatives is that they are not in the confidence of the president, nor are they necessarily working for his aims. Hold it! That could also be a positive.....:D:D
Skybird
02-15-17, 12:46 PM
Latest fake news says US inflation has climbed to 2.1% - and it seems it does not want to stop there. Trump is said to currently compose a new Twittercalypse against the Fed. Reason is not the expected raises of interest rates that torpedoes Trump's announced spending orgy, but that Yellen refuses to wear Ivanka's collection.
Bilge_Rat
02-15-17, 12:50 PM
I just watched the press conference of Trump and Netenyahu.
Trump is a quick learner, his responses are more polished, more presidential. He veered away from any obvious mine fields.
More importantly, he has stopped waving his hands so much, looks a lot more presidential.
I had also watched the press conference with PM Trudeau.
Unlike his very first press conference which was a circus, only a few questions are allowed and only pre-picked reporters ask question, Trump picked two reporters, one from a Christian network, one from TownHall, two friendly, conservative media outlets.
And Oberon, you're smart enough to know this because your "analogy" was purposeful distortion and distraction, but for the benefit of others, there is a very large difference between saying an effective person has a chaotic management style and saying that every person with a chaotic management style is effective, even your hero.
This is crediting Trump with effectiveness that remains to be fully proven, bearing in mind this is a guy who declared bankruptcy four times and still refuses to release his tax details. So far the chaos in the White House has yet to have any real noticable beneficial effects, rather it seems to undermine him at every turn by providing his enemies with plentiful ammunition to use against him. His twitter account alone is a goldmine of stuff for pundits, analysts and political opponents. Trump is not so much shooting himself in the foot, he's getting an assault rifle, putting it on full-auto and unloading on his foot.
His management style is not improving his administration it is undermining it.
Still...it was nice of him to effectively confirm the veracity of the 'leaks' that the media has been reporting on.
The real scandal here is that classified information is illegally given out by "intelligence" like candy. Very un-American!
Bilge_Rat
02-15-17, 01:23 PM
now for real news, Retail CEOs meeting with POTUS have nothing but praise for him:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhtN4KLes8w&feature=youtu.be
meanwhile the "mainstream" press are off with their Russian fairy tale. :haha:
Catfish
02-15-17, 02:13 PM
..so how does all this end? with President Mike Pence? [...]
If someone had told me some decades ago, that Donald and Mickey would once reign the USA.. even Disney would be stunned. :hmmm:
Mr Quatro
02-15-17, 02:47 PM
meanwhile the "mainstream" press are off with their Russian fairy tale. :haha:
The news media is turning this nation into preppers ... :o
I don't want to be a prepper ... I want to be a survivor :yep:
The news media is turning this nation into preppers ... :o
I don't want to be a prepper ... I want to be a survivor :yep:
Well, I hear NASA are being asked to investigate making the first SLS-1 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploration_Mission_1) launch a crewed one rather than going with the traditional un-manned launch first. So there's that option, providing it doesn't explode. :yep:
Platapus
02-15-17, 03:55 PM
No, Trump is nowhere near the most maligned president in history. Abraham Lincoln was, by a country mile. The things that were told against Lincoln made everyone's treatment of Trump look polite.
There's a lesson there too.
When anyone says that a recent president is the worst we have ever had, I just suggest they do some reading on the 19th century and the presidents we had back then. The ones we have today, may not be the best, but hardly the worse.
Skybird
02-15-17, 05:17 PM
Designated labor secretary throws the towel.
Platapus
02-15-17, 07:12 PM
We survived Bush, we survived Obama, I am sure we can survive Trump. I have to believe that our country is stronger than any one person.
When anyone says that a recent president is the worst we have ever had, I just suggest they do some reading on the 19th century and the presidents we had back then. The ones we have today, may not be the best, but hardly the worse.
That's right, just look at Grants presidency,lol
You do realise that this "dossier" was, ehem, made up slander?
If he did he won't admit it.
We survived Bush, we survived Obama, I am sure we can survive Trump. I have to believe that our country is stronger than any one person.
Oh God yes, it's not the presidency that'll screw up America, it's everything else. :yep: The presidency is just really a figurehead for all the problems that the country has, ultimately no-one knows how to fix it.
Oh God yes, it's not the presidency that'll screw up America, it's everything else. :yep: The presidency is just really a figurehead for all the problems that the country has, ultimately no-one knows how to fix it.It's been 205 years since we had the redcoats in Washington DC for a BBQ, maybe we should invite them over again. ;)
Buddahaid
02-15-17, 10:15 PM
It's been 205 years since we had the redcoats in Washington DC for a BBQ, maybe we should invite them over again. ;)
Not even....
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3199/3687889091_e5b027ac03_z.jpg
Not even....
Not even 1 musket among them.
Not even 1 musket among them.
Budget cuts, you know how it is.
Catfish
02-16-17, 05:50 AM
^ :haha:
is this sign at the upper left in the picture a subtle hint? :03:
Rockstar
02-16-17, 10:18 AM
I think those 'redcoats' are members of the United States Army Old Guard Fife and Drum Corps. I've seen them play here before, pretty impressive...http://www.mikelynaugh.com/Yorktown/images/IMG_3132.jpg
Note that Congress authorized the monuement and construction began nearly one hundred years later. Some things about our government just never change. :)
ikalugin
02-16-17, 11:58 AM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/top-us-general-to-meet-his-russian-counterpart-on-thursday/2017/02/15/c48e1f5a-f3d4-11e6-a9b0-ecee7ce475fc_story.html
Interesting stuff.
This is crediting Trump with effectiveness that remains to be fully proven, bearing in mind this is a guy who declared bankruptcy four times and still refuses to release his tax details.
question: What insight are you looking to glean from Trumps tax returns that you don't already know or think you know? The guy has over 140 companies in 25 countries (not including the U.S). That fact right there tells me he probably has some firm do his taxes, and the closest he gets to the information it contains is when his assistant tells him where to sign it.
BTW, it was 6 bankruptcies, not 4. These were not personal Bankruptcies but Trump was the lead investor of those companies. (he owned the majority stock in those businesses)
So far the chaos in the White House has yet to have any real noticable beneficial effects, rather it seems to undermine him at every turn by providing his enemies with plentiful ammunition to use against him. His twitter account alone is a goldmine of stuff for pundits, analysts and political opponents. Trump is not so much shooting himself in the foot, he's getting an assault rifle, putting it on full-auto and unloading on his foot.
His management style is not improving his administration it is undermining it.Can you elaborate? I'm not sure I'm following your line of thought. I haven't seen any major missteps yet. I've been looking through Sean Spicer's press briefings and haven't noticed any major gaffs or evasions.
It's a case of transparency, for the past forty years Presidents have released their tax returns for the sake of openness, but not the Donald. I have no idea what might be in them, but judging by how tight-fisted he's been it probably isn't anything that would reflect well on him.
As for the latter, well here's some Presidential wisdom:
Just leaving Florida. Big crowds of enthusiastic supporters lining the road that the FAKE NEWS media refuses to mention. Very dishonest!
SEE YOU IN COURT, THE SECURITY OF OUR NATION IS AT STAKE!Sen. McCain should not be talking about the success or failure of a mission to the media. Only emboldens the enemy! He's been losing so long he doesn't know how to win anymore, just look at the mess our country is in - bogged down in conflict all over the place.Any negative polls are fake news, just like the CNN, ABC, NBC polls in the election.The opinion of this so-called judge, which essentially takes law-enforcement away from our country, is ridiculous and will be overturned!Somebody with aptitude and conviction should buy the FAKE NEWS and failing @nytimes and either run it correctly or let it fold with dignity!I wonder if someone has calculated how much time of his presidency he has spent attacking the media. :hmmm:
Oh, and one more gem, hot off the press:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C4zs7U9WQAAZeDl.jpg
Bilge_Rat
02-16-17, 02:51 PM
Oh, and one more gem, hot off the press:
I just watched the press conference live. It was a masterful performance. Trump is a natural in these free wheeling events, he picks reporters at random, answers all questions, knows all the issues and has a great sense of humour.
Of course, the MSM is already twisting the coverage and focusing on minor, irrelevant, nit picky details, but that is why their reputation is about on par with used car salesmen at the moment.:ping:
Here is one of the better clips:
https://youtu.be/_-URYdrYEMk
I just watched the press conference live. It was a masterful performance.
https://media.giphy.com/media/xT9DPBBQ4CM3bVTkek/giphy.gif
Rockstar
02-16-17, 03:31 PM
It's a case of transparency, for the past forty years Presidents have released their tax returns for the sake of openness, but not the Donald. I have no idea what might be in them, but judging by how tight-fisted he's been it probably isn't anything that would reflect well on him. .
Transparency? I wonder, why should I care whether 'you' dont have any idea whats in the tax return of a sitting U.S. president His tax returns just as every other American citizen is their own business and private information. The only ones making it your business is the press and you. And neither of you count for jack squat. Someone could see my returns and get a good laugh. Revealing his could lead to his financial ruin. My advice is butt out and mind your own business in regards to peoples private information.
But if you must know ask Putin he probably already knows more than anyone. :haha:
Bilge_Rat
02-16-17, 03:48 PM
interesting take on the current obsession with labeling Trump as a Nazi:
Be Careful What You Wish For (especially if it is Hitler)
As a trained persuader, I’m seeing a dangerous situation forming that I assume is invisible to most of you. The setup is that during the presidential campaign Trump’s critics accused him of being Hitler(ish) and they were sure other citizens would see it too, thus preventing this alleged monster from taking office.
They were wrong. The alleged monster took office.
Now you have literally millions of citizens in the United States who were either right about Trump being the next Hitler, and we will see that behavior emerge from him soon, or they are complete morons. That’s a trigger for cognitive dissonance. The science says these frightened folks will start interpreting all they see as Hitler behavior no matter how ridiculous it might seem to the objective observer. And sure enough, we are seeing that.
To be fair, Trump made it easy this week with his temporary immigration ban. If you assume Trump is Hitler, that fits with your hypothesis. But of course it also fits the hypothesis that he’s just doing his job. We’re all seeing what we expect to see.
But lately I get the feeling that Trump’s critics have evolved from expecting Trump to be Hitler to preferring it. Obviously they don’t prefer it in a conscious way. But the alternative to Trump becoming Hitler is that they have to live out the rest of their lives as confirmed morons. No one wants to be a confirmed moron. And certainly not after announcing their Trump opinions in public and demonstrating in the streets. It would be a total embarrassment for the anti-Trumpers to learn that Trump is just trying to do a good job for America. It’s a threat to their egos. A big one.
http://blog.dilbert.com/post/156540315831/be-careful-what-you-wish-for-especially-if-it-is
.
Transparency? I wonder, why should I care whether 'you' dont have any idea whats in the tax return of a sitting U.S. president His tax returns just as every other American citizen is their own business and private information. The only ones making it your business is the press and you. And neither of you count for jack squat. Someone could see my returns and get a good laugh. Revealing his could lead to his financial ruin. My advice is butt out and mind your own business in regards to peoples private information.
But if you must know ask Putin he probably already knows more than anyone. :haha:
http://www.monologuedb.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Robert-Downey-Jr.-Kirk-Lazarus-Tropic-Thunder.jpg
Is Pew Research fake news yet? Do we have a list of 'Non-fake news' sites, or should I just assume that it's just Fox News and Breitbart that are allowed to have news these days?
http://www.people-press.org/2017/02/16/in-first-month-views-of-trump-are-already-strongly-felt-deeply-polarized/
Platapus
02-16-17, 04:41 PM
Is Pew Research fake news yet? Do we have a list of 'Non-fake news' sites, or should I just assume that it's just Fox News and Breitbart that are allowed to have news these days?
you are over thinking this.
Does the story support your personal political opinions? Then it is real news
Does the story refute or challenge your personal political opinions? Then it is fake news
Just remember that if a news media ever publishes even one story that you don't agree with, every story that news media publishes from then on is fake news.
Rockstar
02-16-17, 04:51 PM
Many opinions about Hitler. Personally I have absolutely no admiration for the man. However few can deny his achievements in the first four years of his jihad.
Joachim Fest, German journalist and historian, “If Hitler had succumbed to an assassination or an accident at the end of 1938,” he wrote, “few would hesitate to call him one of the greatest of German statesmen, the consummator of Germany’s history.... No objective observer of the German scene could deny Hitler’s considerable exploits,”
------
American historian John Toland. “If Hitler had died in 1937 on the fourth anniversary of his coming to power … he undoubtedly would have gone down as one of the greatest figures in German history. Throughout Europe he had millions of admirers.”
------
Sebastian Haffner, German journalist and historian, also a fierce critic of the Third Reich and its ideology, his portrayal of the German leader in The Meaning of Hitler is a harsh one, the author all the same writes:
“Among these positive achievements of Hitler the one outshining all others was his economic miracle.” While the rest of the world was still mired in the economic paralysis, Hitler had made “Germany an island of prosperity.” Within three years, Haffner goes on, “crying need and mass hardship had generally turned into modest but comfortable prosperity. Almost equally important: helplessness and hopelessness had given way to confidence and self-assurance. Even more miraculous was the fact that the transition from depression to economic boom had been accomplished without inflation, at totally stable wages and prices … It is difficult to picture adequately the grateful amazement with which the Germans reacted to that miracle, which, more particularly, made vast numbers of German workers switch from the Social Democrats and the Communists to Hitler after 1933. This grateful amazement entirely dominated the mood of the German masses during the 1936 to 1938 period …”
----
John Lukacs, another American historian has written: “Hitler’s achievements, domestic rather than foreign, during the six (peacetime) years of his leadership of Germany were extraordinary … He brought prosperity and confidence to the Germans, the kind of prosperity that is the result of confidence. The thirties, after 1933, were sunny years for most Germans; something that remained in the memories of an entire generation among them.”
-----
So the question is which part of Hitler are you prepared to associate with Trump? Genocidal maniac or statesman and economic genius? I will say this, its a good thing we have Presidential term limits in our country which prevents them from taking deadly advantage of such successes.
Latest quote from Trump-
"I see stories of chaos, chaos, yet it is the exact opposite," he said. "This administration is running like a fine-tuned machine, despite the fact that I can't get my Cabinet approved."
Seriously????:haha:
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-i-inherited-messes/ar-AAn1sLG?
Skybird
02-16-17, 05:19 PM
According to Wall Street Journal, the US intelligence services intentionally withhold sensible informaiton from Trump due to fears that they would be leaked. They fear their work and sources could be compromised by the fighting going on in the WH, and between WH and external government services. https://www.wsj.com/articles/spies-keep-intelligence-from-donald-trump-1487209351 The site is subscription-only these days. But several international media sites refer to it and retell it.
Skybird
02-16-17, 05:35 PM
And more of my former branch colleagues :) point at the relevance of Trumps symptomatic behaviour.
http://www.lancedodes.com/new-york-times-letter
Some of the peopole he has choosen into his inner circle, also are psychologically highly conspicious. Conway as one example, or Bannon.
Not reassuring, but in fact worrying.
Aktungbby
02-16-17, 05:49 PM
According to Wall Street Journal, the US intelligence services intentionally withhold sensible informaiton from Trump due to fears that they would be leaked. The site is subscription-only these days. But several international media sites refer to it and retell it..... U.S. intelligence officials have withheld sensitive intelligence from President Donald Trump because they are concerned it could be leaked or compromised, according to current and former officials familiar with the matter.
The officials’ decision to keep information from Mr. Trump underscores the deep mistrust that has developed between the intelligence community and the president over his team’s contacts with the Russian government (https://www.wsj.com/articles/mike-flynn-was-probed-by-fbi-over-calls-with-russian-official-1487123221), as well as the enmity he has shown toward U.S. spy agencies. On Wednesday, Mr. Trump accused the agencies of leaking information (https://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trump-blasts-media-and-intelligence-agencies-1487169994) to undermine him.
In some of these cases of withheld information, officials have decided not to show Mr. Trump the sources and methods that the intelligence agencies use to collect information, the current and former officials said. Those sources and methods could include, for instance, the means that an agency uses to spy on a foreign government.
A White House official said: “There is nothing that leads us to believe that this is an accurate account of what is actually happening.”
A spokesman for the Office of Director of National Intelligence said: “Any suggestion that the U.S. intelligence community is withholding information and not providing the best possible intelligence to the president and his national security team is not true.”
Intelligence officials have in the past not told a president or members of Congress about the ins and outs of how they ply their trade. At times, they have decided that secrecy is essential for protecting a source, and that all a president needs to know is what that source revealed and what the intelligence community thinks is important about it.
But in these previous cases in which information was withheld, the decision wasn’t motivated by a concern about a president’s trustworthiness or discretion, the current and former officials said.
It wasn’t clear Wednesday how many times officials have held back information from Mr. Trump.
The officials emphasized that they know of no instance in which crucial information about security threats or potential plotting has been omitted. Still, the misgivings that have emerged among intelligence officials point to the fissures spreading between the White House and the U.S. spy agencies.
Mr. Trump, a Republican, asked Monday night for the resignation of Mike Flynn, his national security adviser (https://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trump-s-national-security-adviser-mike-flynn-resigns-1487045703), after the White House said the president lost trust in him, in part, because he misstated the nature of his conversations with the Russian ambassador.
On Wednesday, Mr. Trump castigated the intelligence agencies and the news media, blaming them for Mr. Flynn’s downfall.
“The real scandal here is that classified information is illegally given out by ‘intelligence’ like candy. Very un-American!” Mr. Trump tweeted.
iframe.twitter-tweet { width: 100% !important; }
Mr. Trump doesn’t immerse himself in intelligence information, and it isn’t clear that he has expressed a desire to know sources and methods. The intelligence agencies have been told to dramatically pare down the president’s daily intelligence briefing, both the number of topics and how much information is described under each topic, an official said. Compared with his immediate predecessors, Mr. Trump so far has chosen to rely less on the daily briefing than they did.
The current and former officials said the decision to avoid revealing sources and methods with Mr. Trump stems in large part from the president’s repeated expressions of admiration for Russian President (http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2015/12/18/donald-trump-praises-putin-as-strong-leader/) Vladimir Putin and his call during the presidential campaign for Russia to continue hacking the emails (https://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trump-invites-russia-to-find-missing-hillary-clinton-emails-1469638557) of his Democratic rival, Hillary Clinton.
U.S. intelligence agencies have concluded that Russia stole and leaked emails from Mrs. Clinton’s campaign to undermine the election process and try to boost Mr. Trump’s chances of winning (https://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trump-continues-attacks-on-intelligence-agencies-ahead-of-classified-briefing-on-russia-1483728966), an allegation denied by Russian officials.
Several of Mr. Trump’s current and former advisers are under investigation for the nature of their ties to Moscow (https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-eyes-michael-flynns-links-to-russia-1485134942), according to people familiar with the matter. After Mr. Flynn’s dismissal, lawmakers have called on the government to release the transcripts of his conversations with Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak (https://www.wsj.com/articles/mike-flynn-discussed-sanctions-with-russian-ambassador-1486769138) and to disclose whether Mr. Trump was aware of or directed Mr. Flynn’s conversations.
Two senior intelligence officials denied Wednesday that Mr. Flynn had engaged in extensive contacts with Russian officials. One of the officials said none of the other advisers had extensive contacts with Russian officials or engaged in any pattern of contacts.
Rep. Adam Schiff (D., Calif.), the ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee, said he has heard concerns from officials about sharing especially sensitive information with Mr. Trump.
“I’ve talked with people in the intelligence community that do have concerns about the White House, about the president, and I think those concerns take a number of forms,” Mr. Schiff said, without confirming any specific incidents. “What the intelligence community considers their most sacred obligation is to protect the very best intelligence and to protect the people that are producing it.”
“I’m sure there are people in the community who feel they don’t know where he’s coming from on Russia,” Mr. Schiff said.
Tensions between the spy agencies and Mr. Trump were pronounced even before he took office, after he publicly accused the Central Intelligence Agency and others of leaking information about alleged Russian hacking operations to undermine the legitimacy of his election win. In a meandering speech in front of a revered CIA memorial the day after his inauguration, Mr. Trump boasted about the size of his inaugural crowd (https://www.wsj.com/articles/white-house-disputes-inauguration-attendance-estimates-1485057689) and accused the media of inventing a conflict between him and the agencies.
In a news conference on Wednesday with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel, Mr. Trump again lashed out at the media and intelligence officials, whom he accused of “criminal” leaks about Mr. Flynn’s conversations with the Russian ambassador last December.
Mr. Trump didn’t explain Wednesday why he asked for Mr. Flynn’s resignation. Instead, he suggested the leaks and the media were to blame for his ouster.
“General Flynn is a wonderful man. I think he’s been treated very, very unfairly by the media,” Mr. Trump said. “And I think it’s really a sad thing that he was treated so badly.”
“I think in addition to that from intelligence, papers are being leaked, things are being leaked,” Mr. Trump said. “It’s criminal action. It’s a criminal act and it’s been going on for a long time before me but now it’s really going on.”
Reviving his line of criticism against intelligence officials during the transition, Mr. Trump said the “illegally leaked” information was from people with political motivations. “People are trying to cover up for a terrible loss that the Democrats had under Hillary Clinton,” Mr. Trump said.
A person close to Mr. Trump said he was reluctant to let go of Mr. Flynn because Mr. Flynn had vigorously supported him at a stage of his presidential campaign when few people did. Mr. Trump also felt Mr. Flynn did nothing wrong in his conversations with the U.S. ambassador to Russia and had good intentions.
“They both continue to support each other,” this person said.
For intelligence veterans, who had hoped that Mr. Trump’s feud with the agencies might have subsided, Wednesday’s comments renewed and deepened concerns.
“This is not about who won the election. This is about concerns about institutional integrity,” said Mark Lowenthal, a former senior intelligence official.
“It’s probably unprecedented to have this difficult a relationship between a president and the intelligence agencies,” Mr. Lowenthal said. “I can’t recall ever seeing this level of friction. And it’s just not good for the country.”
Several congressional probes are examining Russia’s alleged meddling in the election. On Wednesday, the Republican and Democratic leaders of the Senate Judiciary Committee requested a Justice Department briefing and documents related to Mr. Flynn’s resignation, including details of his communications with Russian officials.
Submitted w/o comment ....http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/penguins/sick-penguin-smiley-emoticon.gif
skidman
02-16-17, 07:04 PM
Many opinions about Hitler. Personally I have absolutely no admiration for the man. However few can deny his achievements in the first four years of his jihad.
some of Hitler's "achievements" 1933-1937
legal prohibition of all labour unions 1933
legal prohibition of all political parties 1933
abolition of the German constitution 1933
erection of the concentration camps Nohra, Dachau, Oranienburg, Buchenwald, Sachsenhausen 1933-1937, ca. 350.000 inmates
Nürnberger Rassengesetze 1935 (look it up!)
Reichsweite Judenkartei 1935 (look it up!)
Your statement is absolutely unacceptable. Your post is the saddest post I have read on Subsim so far. Do we really have to go through this again? I cannot believe it.
AndyJWest
02-16-17, 07:51 PM
Regarding Hitler's so-called 'achievements', read this: http://reason.com/archives/1999/08/01/nazi-economics
Just an example:
Hitler paid for his economic "miracle" partly by depleting his nation's gold reserves, which he used to import critical raw materials for the manufacture of weapons. When he took office, the Reichbank had reserves totaling 937 million ReichMarks; four years later, that figure was down to only 72 million ReichMarks. Massive government borrowing financed the rest of the government-driven economy. As [Historian Stephen] Roberts put it, "The Nazi state is being financed by short-term [90 day] loans--up to 15 billion Reichmarks by the end of 1936....In short, Germany is going round and round. She can get nowhere until she returns to normal economic conditions, but she is afraid to try and get back to those, because she fears economic collapse and social upheaval if she does so."
ikalugin
02-17-17, 05:35 AM
I have posted that stuff about intell services before you guys (in different threat though), I guess noone reads the links that I post :)
But yes, Trump really doesnt have a good relationship with his spooks.
Which doesn't make the dosier valid. Regarding the parts that (according to you) are substantiated by the FBI, would you care to enlighten me regarding their content?
The principal impetus for Flynn's resignation was the leaked data, with the leak being both dammaging (to US foreighn policy) and motivated by internal political factors. But I guess the next time Democratic party tries to pull of something like the Iran deal, or threaten 3rd parties with the use of strategic offensive weapons that would be conveniently leaked.
The report itself does not pass any scrutiny (did you even read it?) nor is it's author authorative as you claim.
I, in fact, did read the dossier and, in fact, I even printed the whole thing out; it has long been a habit of mine, since, school days, to have hard copies of anything I wish to analyze or study. I'm not anti-tech, but I do find it easier to do analysis of complex documents or evidence when I am able to place corresponding or conflicting elements of texts side-by-side rather than flipping back and forth, something I can't easily do on a web page or on a screen. I will admit I didn't read the dossier when it first became public; I only browsed it because, at the time, the coverage of the contents online and in the other press was mainly about the more 'juicy' parts, which I found uninteresting. Also, since there were questions about the documents provenance, I also waited until further details on that aspect emerged. When the name and reputation of the compiler also became public, I became more interested and I researched the name: Christopher Steele, former MI6 operative, Russian expert, with over 20 years of intelligence operations experience, and highly regarded within intelligence circles, both in the UK and abroad. He was the first in MI6 to have identified the poisoning death of Alexander Litvinenko, former FSB agent and anti-Putin dissident, as a "hit" engineered by the Kremlin. Steele was also the person who compiled and provided to the US FBI data and evidence used to break the corruption in FIFA, leading to dozens of criminal charges against FIFA members and, ultimately, the ouster of FIFA President, Sepp Blatter. Of course, you would know this if you had done a simple Google search; since you apparently didn't, here are a couple of links to start you off:
Christopher Steele: super-spy or dodgy dossier writer? The secret world of the man behind the leaked Trump document (12 Jan 2017) --
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-who-is-christopher-steele-man-behind-the-trump-dossier-perverted-sexual-acts-mi6-agent-a7524191.html
Donald Trump dossier: intelligence sources vouch for author's credibility (12 Jan 2017) --
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/12/intelligence-sources-vouch-credibility-donald-trump-russia-dossier-author
Unless you can find (I'm not going to do all your work for you) a reliable, detailed, documented source to refute the reputation of Steele, his capabilities, soundness of data, and effectiveness seem to be of a very high order...
Regarding your claim it was the "leaked data" and not the dossier that was the downfall of Flynn, where do you think the "leaked data" had it's origin? The FBI was motivated to investigate Flynn and others by intel contained in the dossier and they were further given to lending credence to the possibility some of the data in the dossier might have substance by the reputation of the compiler, someone with whom the FBI had previous and productive contact and in whom they placed a high degree of trust. The fact the FBI felt strongly enough about the veracity of some key elements of the dossier-derived intel to move their findings up the chain to both then President Obama and President-Elect Trump is ample evidence of how the FBI held the seriousness of the situation; and the FBI did not just take the dossier-derived intel at face value; using the dossier, the FBI asked for and received copies communications intercepts from other agencies such as the NSA and CIA; these transcripts were used to substantiate not only that alleged communication had indeed taken place, but, also the content and context of those communications. (There have been a number of jokes lately over the fact Flynn, with a long resume in intelligence, would have not been aware conversations between Russian officials and US citizens are routinely monitored and, also, that Flynn would hold such conversations over open, unsecured lines; the bigger and worse 'joke' is Trump actually appointing such a dismal idiot and then spending weeks trying to cover up his own misstep.) There was, in this case, no real "leaked data" that brought Flynn down; the data was already out there, in public, long months before Trump fired Flynn, it just needed substantiation which the FBI has provided and, given the Trump administration has only been carping about the data being "leaked" and neither denying the soundness of the data nor offering substantiated counter data of their own, it would seem, by all measures, those claims from the dossier investigated by the FBI are very highly likely true; only a formal adjudication process can finally, definitively tell the tale, but, since the Trump administration seems, somehow, not terribly eager to address breaches of law and possible treason by people in and around their camp, I guess we will have to wait for either other outside-the-administration legal actions ro run their course, or, another dismaying and embarrassing 'shoe' to 'drop'...
I also wish to make this clear: I do not in any way give any serious credence to the more "salacious" aspects of the dossier; it sounds like more of the sort of tabloid fodder. However, the dossier was a "raw data" compilation and, if you have ever done mass data compilation of any kind, as I have over many years, you would know how you start with the broadest of data sets and then refine and define, separating the 'wheat from the chaff' until you get a final, polished product. Steele did just that: he compiled as much data as he could find, good and bad, and then he moved it up the chains to those in a better position to polish; he did his job and he did it well...
So, ahem, I await your detailed, researched, and substantiated rebuttal or refutation. But please don't take too long: I may only have another 20 or so years to live... :D
Ahem...
If he did he won't admit it.
Unlike a number of other posters who do hit-and-run drive-by-sniping of dubious 'facts' and, when challenged seem to have nothing to say of consequence in rebuttal nor offer apology for misstatements, I have, in the past, indeed admitted to errors and have, indeed, in fact, apologized for my transgressions; so, again, the above quoted statement is wrong: I have and will in the future, when necessary, "admit it". Will you?...
<O>
I have posted that stuff about intell services before you guys (in different threat though), I guess noone reads the links that I post :)
But yes, Trump really doesnt have a good relationship with his spooks.
Perhaps you would kindly give links to the thread in question or the posts in question, please?...
<O>
Bilge_Rat
02-17-17, 10:11 AM
well Trump is on the right track, his approval rating is back up to 55%. :up:
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/trump_administration/trump_approval_index_history
Bilge_Rat
02-17-17, 10:17 AM
So, ahem, I await your detailed, researched, and substantiated rebuttal or refutation. But please don't take too long: I may only have another 20 or so years to live... :D
Ahem...
The "Dossier" is not credible.
1. It was commissioned as a OPPO hit piece;
2. There are several proven factual errors;
3. None of the claims have been independently verified.
It is just rumors and innuendo.
More importantly, now that Trump is the President of the USA, he does not have to disprove anything. It is up to those who claim he is a Russian mole to prove their point.
Bilge_Rat
02-17-17, 10:37 AM
U.S. intelligence officials have withheld sensitive intelligence from President Donald Trump because they are concerned it could be leaked or compromised, according to current and former officials familiar with the matter.
The officials’ decision to keep information from Mr. Trump underscores the deep mistrust that has developed between the intelligence community and the president over his team’s contacts with the Russian government, as well as the enmity he has shown toward U.S. spy agencies. On Wednesday, Mr. Trump accused the agencies of leaking information to undermine him.
I read the WSJ article, but it does not add up.
As I understand the article, the implication is that agents within the CIA, NSA, etc. do not trust Trump and/or his team because of supposed contacts with Russian spies and are withholding info from the WH.
That would make sense if they had real suspicions and were running a sting, i.e. passing fake info to see where it pops up which is a common intelligence technique.
But if true, why are these "spooks" telling journalists what they are doing so that Trump, all his appointees, all the world's spy agency, in fact the whole world know exactly what they are doing?
There are a few possible explanations:
1. the intelligence officials behind this are incompetent morons: Obviously they have no clue what they are doing and should be fired as soon as their identity is discovered.
2. the intelligence officials behind this are partisan hacks: It has nothing to do with concern about security, but these are pushing a anti-Trump agenda and should be fired as soon as their identity is discovered.
3. the "officials" behind this are Democratic Congressman/Senators or other political hacks.: notice how the term used is not "intelligence officials", but just "officials". In the media, the term "official" is often code word for a member of Congress. "former official" could be anyone from Harry Reid to John Brennan.
In other words, this is most likely another political hit piece.
It's a case of transparency, for the past forty years Presidents have released their tax returns for the sake of openness, but not the Donald. I have no idea what might be in them, but judging by how tight-fisted he's been it probably isn't anything that would reflect well on him.
As for the latter, well here's some Presidential wisdom:
I wonder if someone has calculated how much time of his presidency he has spent attacking the media. :hmmm:
Oh, and one more gem, hot off the press:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C4zs7U9WQAAZeDl.jpgno... not exactly, Nixon started it back in 73' in an effort to blunt the Watergate investigation.
Taxes: "who pays and how much". Is one of the mainstay issues almost every election cycle, candidates releasing their tax returns is how they steer that issue in the direction they want.
This is not a case of transparency, this is an attempt by opponents to get a jump on obstructing any ideas Trump has for revamping the current tax codes. Plain and simple. How much money a candidate makes and pays in taxes really isn't high on my list of concerns. The only time I can recall being interested in a candidates finances, is when Mrs. Clinton claimed She and Bill were "dead broke" when they left the White House. (which of course turned out to be a lie, and didn't need tax returns to refute).
On to the twitter feed, I've never taken anything posted on Facebook or twitter at face value unless I know them in real life, so I'll give it the same consideration I do on any other feeds by people I don't personally know, and that is none. C'mon give me something substantial to be outraged about.
I have no sympathy for "the Press", in my opinion they've gone from reporting the facts to driving the story so anything "they" report is suspect until corroborated.
Aktungbby
02-17-17, 11:26 AM
.... Submitted w/o comment ....http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/penguins/sick-penguin-smiley-emoticon.gif
In other words, this is most likely another political hit piece. :yep: :up:
PREEEEEEECisely!
You may disagree the politics Trump are making or against those who support him, or you may agree on his politics
however I guess there's one thing you can't disagree with
Trump is one of a kind-A politicians never seen before.(I have tried to recall historical persons to see if the could be any)
Markus
however I guess there's one thing you can't disagree with
Trump is one of a kind-A politicians never seen before.(I have tried to recall historical persons to see if the could be any)
He is different in that he is an idiot.
That's my opinion so far.
He is different in that he is an idiot.
That's my opinion so far.
It was the press conference I saw today, that made me think-He is an original.
Markus
He is different in that he is an idiot.
That's my opinion so far.
On the upside, Dubya must be absolutely ecstatic.
AVGWarhawk
02-17-17, 01:30 PM
Admittedly, the entertainment is priceless.
On the upside, Dubya must be absolutely ecstatic.I'd give him a reach around if he agreed to come back.
He was goofy, Trump's an idiot.
AndyJWest
02-17-17, 02:51 PM
You may disagree the politics Trump are making or against those who support him, or you may agree on his politics
however I guess there's one thing you can't disagree with
Trump is one of a kind-A politicians never seen before.(I have tried to recall historical persons to see if the could be any)
Markus
The closest parallel is probably Silvio Berlusconi, though as far as playing to the crowd goes, Trump's style is more reminiscent of an earlier Italian politician. :03:
But yes, he is something of an outlier in terms of political figures, at least in the west. In a broader context, one can look for parallels with Indian politics, and the way Bollywood has become a frequent entry path for a political career. 'Celebrity' outsiders are frequently well-placed to feed on scepticism about the political establishment, though the record shows that on the whole the establishment generally incorporates them soon enough: politics ultimately isn't about individuals fighting the system (or claiming to), it is fundamentally driven by broader conflicts within the system itself.
Trump clearly has two issues first he can not run America like the head of a company, he must learn there is a different's between that and being the president. Second he clearly gets hot under the collar and the press will continual to exploit that fact.
I'd give him a reach around if he agreed to come back.
He was goofy, Trump's an idiot.
:haha::haha:
Platapus
02-17-17, 06:01 PM
It is not unusual for Intel to withhold sources and methods when briefing senior executives. Senior executives want their briefings tailored to their decision making process. We tell them what they need to know in order to make their decision. A fast way to irritate a senior executive is to fill up briefings with information the executive does not need nor want to see.
The executive needs to know and understand what is happening, not necessarily how we know it. Most presidents don't get briefed on sources and methods simply because they don't want that information in their decision process.
At any time, when the president wants to know sources and methods, he requests it and it is provided to him. But not unless he asks for it.
In any case, this is not a Trump only thing. The media is making it a Trump only thing.
The media is the enemy of the people...
Rockstar
02-17-17, 08:59 PM
I'd wager the media tailors their news to gain and retain an audience in order to make a buck. The media contrary to what they may think, is no more our savior than a politician is.
The media is the enemy of the people...
Trump has a love/hate relationship with the media.
He loves to hate the media.:D And seeing how they treated him as soon as he declared his candidacy, I can't really blame him.
AndyJWest
02-17-17, 10:56 PM
It was only media attention that made Trump's candidacy viable in the first place.
Buddahaid
02-17-17, 11:59 PM
I'd wager the media tailors their news to gain and retain an audience in order to make a buck. The media contrary to what they may think, is no more our savior than a politician is.
Pretty funny! I have no problem arguing with that statement.
http://assets.amuniversal.com/cc234560ca04013442be005056a9545d.jpg
http://assets.amuniversal.com/3da540d0d6ac013451b9005056a9545d.jpg
ikalugin
02-18-17, 06:29 AM
tldr
The "Dossier" is not credible.
1. It was commissioned as a OPPO hit piece;
2. There are several proven factual errors;
3. None of the claims have been independently verified.
It is just rumors and innuendo.
More importantly, now that Trump is the President of the USA, he does not have to disprove anything. It is up to those who claim he is a Russian mole to prove their point.
Well, that is more or less my position as well.
I would also mention the style the "dossier" being writen and that the media covering it lies about details, for example status of it's alleged author.
The press is the enemy, the establishment is the enemy, the professors are the enemy.
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/484737/richard-nixon-o.gif
ikalugin
02-18-17, 07:30 AM
The press is the enemy, the establishment is the enemy, the professors are the enemy.
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/484737/richard-nixon-o.gif
Trust noone, not even yourself. Question everything.
Trust noone, not even yourself. Question everything.
Especially hotels, never trust hotels. :yep:
Rockstar
02-18-17, 09:14 AM
HITLER, He's everywhere. :o
HITLER, He's everywhere. :o
He could be wearing your boxer shorts right now. :03:
HITLER, He's everywhere. :o
http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/016/837/4581cc8adf783652c6f5829d28aa87f1.png
em2nought
02-18-17, 11:20 AM
The press is the enemy, the establishment is the enemy, the professors are the enemy.
Sounds about right. :up:
Platapus
02-18-17, 11:27 AM
I'd wager the media tailors their news to gain and retain an audience in order to make a buck. The media contrary to what they may think, is no more our savior than a politician is.
As soon as the news media decided back in the 80's (Perhaps even before) that news services had to be profitable, the news media started to lose any objectivity.
When there is so much competition for "breaking news" the news media is prone to do pretty much anything in order to get a "scoop".
This may be a case where too much competition is not a good thing.
I wish I knew what the solution is. News has always been biased. Anything that is human run has bias.
One of the problems is the Internets Tubes. It is effortless to copy and spread information across many venues. When that information is accurate it is a good thing. When the information is inaccurate, it is a bad thing.
it is really up to the people to put more effort into understanding the media biases and compensate. I fear that far too many people just blindly accept news that supports their opinion and are done with it.
It may be an unsolvable problem these days.
ikalugin
02-18-17, 11:34 AM
I fear that far too many people just blindly accept news that supports their opinion and are done with it.
From my observations it appears that people do that by selecting their sources rather than by blocking out specific stories. This leads to echo chambers/group think bubles.
The cause for this, in my opinion, is over abundance of data when compared to the ability of a person to process it. So while increasing individual efforts to process information could work, it would cost time (and other resources the person has) so it may not be a viable solution.
What would be a viable solution would be by expanding the ability of individual to process information, be that by some kind of special training, biological or technical modification I do not know. I would guess though that the most viable solution would be to use technical means - AI system to filter data streams for the user and train users in it's usage. However this does lead to technical problems, for example insuring that there is no 3rd party control over such system.
Mr Quatro
02-18-17, 12:09 PM
As soon as the news media decided back in the 80's (Perhaps even before) that news services had to be profitable, the news media started to lose any objectivity.
When there is so much competition for "breaking news" the news media is prone to do pretty much anything in order to get a "scoop".
This may be a case where too much competition is not a good thing.
I wish I knew what the solution is. News has always been biased. Anything that is human run has bias.
One of the problems is the Internets Tubes. It is effortless to copy and spread information across many venues. When that information is accurate it is a good thing. When the information is inaccurate, it is a bad thing.
it is really up to the people to put more effort into understanding the media biases and compensate. I fear that far too many people just blindly accept news that supports their opinion and are done with it.
It may be an unsolvable problem these days.
http://www.recode.net/2017/2/8/14542732/full-transcript-cnn-senior-media-correspondent-brian-stelter-fake-news
People are hungry for the news is the problem, social media to arm chair viewers to news staff's trying to tease people to watch their news station. Real news is making money, fake news is making money, NY Times has been bragging that they are making money off of Trump's comebacks on the news and I just heard that even CNN is making more money than ever before due to the Trump mistakes being real news and shocking to most people.
But Trump continues on his merry way. Old news will be old news as the new shocking news comes out.
Now Trump is back where he started on the campaign trail ... he just might win, uh?
Very entertaining POTUS and he just got started ... now he wants the Mexican Cartel to pay for the wall:https://www.yahoo.com/news/mexico-welcomes-us-idea-drug-cartels-fund-wall-210517396.html
Mexico welcomes US idea to make drug cartels fund wall
But he better hurry before Mexico makes marijuana legal. :yep:
Schroeder
02-18-17, 12:35 PM
Sounds about right. :up:
Indeed. It has been proven countless times before. That's why the commies got rid of them, the Nazis and pretty much every dictatorship on this planet. Now it's your turn to join this illustrious group.:yeah:
A Hypothetical questions that none of us can give a correct answer to.
Let say that some high court or whatever it could be gave the Americans a second chance to pick a President for the next 4 or 8 years, and the candidate they had to choose from was:
1. Trump
2. Clinton
3. A third candidate
Would Trump win this second chance election ?
I got this A Hypothetical questions late yesterday evening after had read some of the post, what if the Americans got a second chance to pick their next President, would Trump have good chance to win again or...?
Markus
Since Trump is having a campaign rally in Florida today, I suppose we tax payers have to pay for his trip down there? He always bitched about Obama playing golf all the time and that we had to pay for him to go on all these vacations, now he goes to Florida every weekend costing a few million dollars each time, let alone the $60K day the Sheriffs dept pays in over time when he is there!
Wonder how much it costs NYC to protect his offices all the time? Plus believe the Govt will be renting an office in Trump Tower for security reasons, so Trump makes more money off of us!
Buddahaid
02-18-17, 01:46 PM
Trump is in so many ways the perfect modern American. It's always somebody else's fault.
A campaign rally!?! Seems like he has been in office for a life time already,lol
A campaign rally!?! Seems like he has been in office for a life time already,lol
Apparently at the campaign he asked some random guy from the audience to come up on the stage to speak and told the Secret Service to stand down when they went to stop him.
I think this is going to be the Secret Service by the end of the year at the current rate:
http://media1.policymic.com/site/article-items/7063/1_gif.gif
Platapus
02-18-17, 08:56 PM
A Hypothetical questions that none of us can give a correct answer to.
Let say that some high court or whatever it could be gave the Americans a second chance to pick a President for the next 4 or 8 years, and the candidate they had to choose from was:
1. Trump
2. Clinton
3. A third candidate
Would Trump win this second chance election ?
I got this A Hypothetical questions late yesterday evening after had read some of the post, what if the Americans got a second chance to pick their next President, would Trump have good chance to win again or...?
Markus
This question is so far out from reality that it is hard to even come up with a hypothetical answer. One would have to assume that if this could ever come up, that there would be a reason why Trump could not be president (otherwise why the redo?) In that case, Trump could not even be an option.
em2nought
02-19-17, 01:28 AM
Indeed. It has been proven countless times before. That's why the commies got rid of them, the Nazis and pretty much every dictatorship on this planet. Now it's your turn to join this illustrious group.:yeah:
Oh please, if there's a side that behaves in this manner it has to be the Obama and Clinton camps. I'm pretty sure the Trump camp would gladly let every snowflake that wants to secede do it, and take an illegal or two with you when you do. It's the other camp that must impose their will because they can't survive without working class rubes like me paying more than my fair share of taxes. P.S. I'm not really happy paying as much as the next eight countries combined on our military either. Maybe making NATO pay up is the first step toward fixing that BS.
Damn straight, the lügenpresse of the Clinton and Obama camp would never have told the world about the terrible terrorist attack in Sweden last night at Gräsplan för Bowl, thank goodness we have the dear Donald to show us the true news amid all the falsifications. :yeah:
Schroeder
02-19-17, 08:37 AM
Damn straight, the lügenpresse of the Clinton and Obama camp would never have told the world about the terrible terrorist attack in Sweden last night at Gräsplan för Bowl, thank goodness we have the dear Donald to show us the true news amid all the falsifications. :yeah:
What I find so mind boggling is how easy it is to refute the nonsense Trump and his cohorts are spewing. I mean they can't be seriously thinking they can get away with inventing terror attacks without anyone noticing.
So why are they completely destroying their (not so great to begin with) credibility by doing it?:hmmm:
I mean who is still supposed to take the guy serious? He made himself laughing stock of the world....again.
What I find so mind boggling is how easy it is to refute the nonsense Trump and his cohorts are spewing. I mean they can't be seriously thinking they can get away with inventing terror attacks without anyone noticing.
So why are they completely destroying their (not so great to begin with) credibility by doing it?:hmmm:
I mean who is still supposed to take the guy serious anymore? He made himself laughing stock of the world....again.
It's not for us, it's for his devout followers who will just point to the refutations as evidence of the lying press, and then bring up something that Obama or Clinton did that is 'just as bad' and so on and so forth. :03:
Jimbuna
02-19-17, 09:03 AM
Apparently at the campaign he asked some random guy from the audience to come up on the stage to speak and told the Secret Service to stand down when they went to stop him.
I think this is going to be the Secret Service by the end of the year at the current rate:
http://media1.policymic.com/site/article-items/7063/1_gif.gif
Are you sure this was a 'random' guy?
It's not for us, it's for his devout followers who will just point to the refutations as evidence of the lying press, and then bring up something that Obama or Clinton did that is 'just as bad' and so on and so forth. :03:what did I miss? more fake news? Twitter feed? what...
Are you sure this was a 'random' guy?
It could well have been a plant, but if it was then the Secret Service had no idea about it, or they're good actors. Apparently he was on the news before the rally praising Trump, so who can say? :hmmm:
what did I miss? more fake news? Twitter feed? what...
http://www.itv.com/news/2017-02-19/donald-trump-cites-non-existent-sweden-terror-attack-at-florida-rally/
therichgypsy
02-19-17, 09:14 AM
build the wall and make the Mexicans pay
Platapus
02-19-17, 10:12 AM
People make poor decisions when they are scared or stressed.
Beware of any politician who encourages fear or stress on the citizenry.
Fear is a powerful weapon that history has demonstrated its effectiveness.
We need to make our decisions based on facts, not fears; evidence not emotion, reason not reaction.
As some old dead guy once said. The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.
u crank
02-19-17, 10:38 AM
Beware of any politician who encourages fear or stress on the citizenry.
Indeed. But.....media opposing him has the fear factor turned up to eleven.
Well, that is more or less my position as well.
I would also mention the style the "dossier" being writen and that the media covering it lies about details, for example status of it's alleged author.
Interesting. I am going to presume the "tldr" in the "quote" you referenced is your own comment about your conduct and not a direct quote of anything I posted, since I know I have not posted "tldr" about anything in this thread. What is interesting is you are admitting you are making comments about posts and links of which you have no real first hand knowledge or experience. This would explain a lot about your comments in previous posts and your continued "defense" of Russian involvement in US politics. I am now inclined to believe you probably haven't even really read the full dossier or other relevant documents at all and are merely parroting some "Reader's Digest" version you may have stumbled upon...
In your post, and in the post you agreed with, there are still no cites, no references, no expansion to support your claims, just more 'drive-by sniping' void of substance we are expected to believe just because you 'say so'; perhaps living in Russia has ingrained you with a natural tendency to accept the 'party line'... :03:
Since you can not offer even one bit of detailed, verifiable, substantiation to bolster you claims, then I will accept them as they are: empty claims, not fact...
<O>
People make poor decisions when they are scared or stressed.
Beware of any politician who encourages fear or stress on the citizenry.
Fear is a powerful weapon that history has demonstrated its effectiveness.
We need to make our decisions based on facts, not fears; evidence not emotion, reason not reaction.
As some old dead guy once said. The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.
Are you sure we can't persuade you to run for President?... :salute:
<O>
Platapus
02-19-17, 12:05 PM
Are you sure we can't persuade you to run for President?... :salute:
<O>
Nah The office is in a lousy neighbourhood.
Since Trump is having a campaign rally in Florida today, I suppose we tax payers have to pay for his trip down there? He always bitched about Obama playing golf all the time and that we had to pay for him to go on all these vacations, now he goes to Florida every weekend costing a few million dollars each time, let alone the $60K day the Sheriffs dept pays in over time when he is there!
Wonder how much it costs NYC to protect his offices all the time? Plus believe the Govt will be renting an office in Trump Tower for security reasons, so Trump makes more money off of us!
So are you upset because he went there or that he bitched about Obama doing the same thing? How are you with Obama doing it in the first place?
Buddahaid
02-19-17, 02:01 PM
The records will speak for themselves. I'm curious, August, if you would be defending Clinton as you seem to be defending Trump if she had won? I know you stated you wouldn't vote for either.
http://www.itv.com/news/2017-02-19/donald-trump-cites-non-existent-sweden-terror-attack-at-florida-rally/I see that in your link, not sure what it refers to. The media in the U.S. hasn't mentioned anything (and I think they would considering....)
So are you upset because he went there or that he bitched about Obama doing the same thing? How are you with Obama doing it in the first place?Did Trump go down there specifically for that rally? Or was it more like a side trip going to/from somewhere else.
If it's the former, someone needs to tell him his next election isn't for four years and get back to work.
Mr Quatro
02-19-17, 02:38 PM
Did Trump go down there specifically for that rally? Or was it more like a side trip going to/from somewhere else.
If it's the former, someone needs to tell him his next election isn't for four years and get back to work.
Side trip I think due to the southern whitehouse is now in Florida which is okay with me ... Bush had his ranch outside of Waco and Obama had Hawaii once or twice a year and of course he had Michele and her mom and his two daughters to entertain, but still he got around a lot.
Time will tell at least he has found friendly audience's :yep:
Catfish
02-19-17, 02:46 PM
“You know what uranium is, right? It’s this thing called nuclear weapons. And other things. Like lots of things are done with uranium. Including some bad things. But nobody talks about that.”
I see that in your link, not sure what it refers to. The media in the U.S. hasn't mentioned anything (and I think they would considering....)
http://nypost.com/2017/02/19/swedes-ask-what-trumps-smoking-after-he-cites-unknown-terror-attack/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/02/19/umm-what-supposed-terror-attack-baffles-swedes/98129506/
https://www.cnet.com/news/trump-rally-nonexistent-swedish-incident-internet-repsonse/
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/02/19/516097504/trump-says-look-whats-happening-in-sweden-sweden-asks-wait-what
http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/trumps-sunday-the-inside-story-on-nonexistent-sweden-incident/
“You know what uranium is, right? It’s this thing called nuclear weapons. And other things. Like lots of things are done with uranium. Including some bad things. But nobody talks about that.”
"We are here today to speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth."
:hmmm:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Webcomic_xkcd_-_Wikipedian_protester.png
Late last evening I read something in a Danish news paper, this paper had quoted the English news paper-There was not any link to a English version about this story.
The headlines said
Rumours in Washington: The coup is underway against Trump
"Have the US intelligence actually started to remove Trump from the presidency?"
It is the newspaper's Washington editor, Rhys Blakely, in an analysis report that it is such talk is in Washington right now.
There is talk in Washington about a 'soft coup', where the intelligence service will try to remove the president from office being continued to leak classified material, "writes Rhys Blakely include in its analysis.
This was just some part of the article I have translated through google translate.
When I read it I got mad.
The American people have via the American election system chosen Trump as their next President. The authorities, the Military and agencies in USA and abroad should respect this.
That's how I see it.
Markus
Thanks oberon, saved me a bit of time last link was helpful for context. His inner circle was probably the only ones to understand the reference as it is.
It time for him to start paying attention to what he says in front of a mic.
Could it be intentional?
ikalugin
02-19-17, 03:51 PM
@viena
Just like with the "russian hackers" story I have read both the document itself and surrounding media narratives. The reason why I have edited the quote to "TLDR" was because I did not plan to repply to your post directly.
Just like with the "russian hackers" story there is no evidence within that story or surrounding narratives to support it. Remember how you mentioned (and linked) the official documents in the discussion, when I was present? Well, those did not have any evidence regarding attribution.
In your post, and in the post you agreed with, there are still no cites, no references, no expansion to support your claims, just more 'drive-by sniping' void of substance we are expected to believe just because you 'say so'; perhaps living in Russia has ingrained you with a natural tendency to accept the 'party line'... Since you can not offer even one bit of detailed, verifiable, substantiation to bolster you claims, then I will accept them as they are: empty claims, not fact...And there is no need for me to do so, simply because of the Russell's teapot principle. What I do is point out that there is no evidence where you (or to be specific the narrative you project) claim that there is evidence, just like in the case I mentioned above, where upon examination official documents not only had factual errors in them, but also lacked the evidence to support the claims made regarding attribution. So accusing me of blindly following a political narrative is, well, amusing.
But to return to that new discussion. If you read the document, it is obvious that it is not credible from the style and content of it. While there are many surrounding theories regarding it's origins (which vary from 4chan trolls to ex-soviet intelligence officers) I have still not made my mind regarding it and I will still wait for specific supporting evidence rather than claims by sources clearly invested into the matter discussed.
On topic - unsurprisingly Trump's admin denies those spy allegations:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/02/19/priebus-says-us-intel-officials-call-campaign-russia-story-garbage-tries-to-end-controversy.html
(and yes I know about FoxNews - read the direct speach)
The records will speak for themselves. I'm curious, August, if you would be defending Clinton as you seem to be defending Trump if she had won? I know you stated you wouldn't vote for either.
Well it's hard to prove a response to something that will thankfully never happen but I'd like to think that I would object if the Fourth Estate had declared war on her like they have on Trump. Then again while I dislike Trump I absolutely loathe Clinton so maybe I'd see attacks on her by the press as a welcome taste of her own medicine and be a little less likely to jump to her defense.
Did Trump go down there specifically for that rally? Or was it more like a side trip going to/from somewhere else.
If it's the former, someone needs to tell him his next election isn't for four years and get back to work.
What does any of that have to do with what I posted?
ikalugin
02-19-17, 04:16 PM
Instead of the p.s.
As a Russian I am by far more likely to be overcritical and overcynical of things. Which is related to why I don't own a TV and do not use social media.
It time for him to start paying attention to what he says in front of a mic.
Could it be intentional?
:hmmm: It's possible, I mean most of his supporters either couldn't care or already just buy into his story so it doesn't really matter what he says, I mean he's already put it better than I can when he said that he could 'shoot somebody and not lose any voters'.
Meanwhile in USAF Spangdahlem:
http://gizmodo.com/accidental-inbound-missile-warning-scares-the-hell-out-1792518356
https://www.airforcetimes.com/articles/spangdahlem-mistaken-missile-warning-valentines-day
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v11Y64dnnF4
ikalugin
02-19-17, 04:28 PM
:hmmm: It's possible, I mean most of his supporters either couldn't care or already just buy into his story so it doesn't really matter what he says, I mean he's already put it better than I can when he said that he could 'shoot somebody and not lose any voters'.
Meanwhile in USAF Spangdahlem:
http://gizmodo.com/accidental-inbound-missile-warning-scares-the-hell-out-1792518356
https://www.airforcetimes.com/articles/spangdahlem-mistaken-missile-warning-valentines-day
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v11Y64dnnF4
I heard that there were no fallout shelters in UK.
Catfish
02-19-17, 04:34 PM
"We are here today to speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." [...] :hmmm:
"Sweden, who would believe this."
Not me.
Either Trump does not know what happened, then he is uniformed, or just dumb. Or he is a liar. Frankly, i think he is just making things up without thinking, to underline or get his views through. Alternative facts - you have an opinion and make up events to prove it. Lot of slander has already happened, e.g. most of what Trump accused Clinton with, were plain lies.
Apart from laughing their sses off, ...
http://www.dw.com/en/trumps-sweden-terror-remark-leaves-the-internet-laughing/a-37624285
...meanwhile Sweden has officially asked for an explanation from the US government.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-trump-sweden-idUKKBN15Y0QP
Entertaining :)
I heard that there were no fallout shelters in UK.
Not official ones, no, most people would have made their own if needed, and then probably died anyway.
I mean, let's face it...who the hell wants to survive a full nuclear exchange?
ikalugin
02-19-17, 04:38 PM
"Sweden, who would believe this."
Not me.
Either Trump does not know what happened, then he is uniformed, or just dumb. Or he is a liar. Frankly, i think he is just making things up without thinking, to underline or get his views through. Alternative facts - you have an opinion and make up events to prove it. Lot of slander has already happened, e.g. most of what Trump accused Clinton with, were plain lies.
Apart from laughing their sses off, ...
http://www.dw.com/en/trumps-sweden-terror-remark-leaves-the-internet-laughing/a-37624285
...meanwhile Sweden has officially asked for an explanation from the US government.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-trump-sweden-idUKKBN15Y0QP
Entertaining :)
I mean it is not like the previous republican president got all his facts right and did not mistake one country for another.
On a related note I still remember the glorious trolls during the 080808 war, where people would troll americans into believing that the state of Georgia was invaded rather than, ehem, a state of Georgia. Fortunately I was a passive observer back then, but I know people who were trolling or even participating in attacks (ie DoS attacks).
"Sweden, who would believe this."
Not me.
Either Trump does not know what happened, then he is uniformed, or just dumb. Or he is a liar. Frankly, i think he is just making things up without thinking, to underline or get his views through. Alternative facts - you have an opinion and make up events to prove it. Lot of slander has already happened, e.g. most of what Trump accused Clinton with, were plain lies.
Apart from laughing their sses off, ...
http://www.dw.com/en/trumps-sweden-terror-remark-leaves-the-internet-laughing/a-37624285
...meanwhile Sweden has officially asked for an explanation from the US government.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-trump-sweden-idUKKBN15Y0QP
Entertaining :)
I have relatives and friends in Sweden, if some terror attack or similar should happen there, I would be informed. When I heard Trump saying this I was :o:hmmm:
Markus
So are you upset because he went there or that he bitched about Obama doing the same thing? How are you with Obama doing it in the first place?
Its the plain as day hypocrisy coming out of Trumps big mouth that gets me!! It doesn't bother me about Presidents getting out of DC to get away from the spotlight and just relax, no matter who it is! But when Trump claimed he would not leave DC like Obama did because he has too much work to do, I call Bulls....! He talks out of his arse all the time, and claims its the truth, when we all know its crap, from the get go!
But when Trump claimed he would not leave DC like Obama did because he has too much work to do
When did he say that? Last I heard he was considering living in the White House only part time.
As he heads out for his 5th golf trip since becoming President, let's have a look at the Donalds opinion on golfing presidents:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C4-APZLUcAALfsa.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C4-APZKUMAAhg-8.jpg
What does any of that have to do with what I posted?
Just chiming in on your question to eddie.
ikalugin
02-19-17, 05:40 PM
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/19/us/politics/donald-trump-ukraine-russia.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=a-lede-package-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0
And so the story develops.
If I may quote mine:
"While there is nothing illegal about such unofficial efforts"
There are other interesting points in there. One wonders what Trump would do with Ukraine after getting the man screwed over by the current Ukrainian regime as his Secretary of State.
:hmmm: It's possible, I mean most of his supporters either couldn't care or already just buy into his story so it doesn't really matter what he says, I mean he's already put it better than I can when he said that he could 'shoot somebody and not lose any voters'.
Meanwhile in USAF Spangdahlem:
http://gizmodo.com/accidental-inbound-missile-warning-scares-the-hell-out-1792518356
https://www.airforcetimes.com/articles/spangdahlem-mistaken-missile-warning-valentines-dayHey if a former VP can do it (Mr. Cheney), then Trump's probably right he could get away with shooting someone, depending on who that someone is.:D
Are people who's against Trump collecting words here and there from what he says and then add their own words so it make sense in their world ?
I have wondered what Trump ment by his comment
"look at what’s happening last night in Sweden, who would believe this? "
Some friends friend have posted a transcript of his speech
Here is what he furthermore said about Sweden and what our own Press never mentioned in their cover on this issue.
"They took in large numbers. They’re having problems like they never thought possible"
Markus
Rockstar
02-19-17, 07:43 PM
Trump may be referring to documents like the UNODC statistics which indicate an increase in rape and others indicating a perception that crime is increasing in Sweden. Like me, Trump can only presume to know it is immigrants causing this increase since Swedish authorities leave such statistical information out of their reports.
The UNDOC I looked at only covers a period from 2003 thru 2010 with each year showing an increase in rape cases. Contrary to other information Ive read in the latest news it has not declined since in 2005. Sweden is ranked third in the world (2010) having more than twice the number of rape case than the U.S. which is ranked 9th.
https://img.washingtonpost.com/news/comic-riffs/wp-content/uploads/sites/15/2017/02/TIME-trump-cover-final.jpg
Up next: The Rearranging Of The Deck Chairs...
<O>
AndyJWest
02-19-17, 08:58 PM
Trump may be referring to documents like the UNODC statistics which indicate an increase in rape and others indicating a perception that crime is increasing in Sweden. Like me, Trump can only presume to know it is immigrants causing this increase since Swedish authorities leave such statistical information out of their reports.
The UNDOC I looked at only covers a period from 2003 thru 2010 with each year showing an increase in rape cases. Contrary to other information Ive read in the latest news it has not declined since in 2005. Sweden is ranked third in the world (2010) having more than twice the number of rape case than the U.S. which is ranked 9th.
From the UNDOC:
Please note that when using the figures, any cross-national comparisons should be conducted with caution because of the differences that exist between the legal definitions of offences in countries, or the different methods of offence counting and recording.
http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics/crime/CTS2013_SexualViolence.xls
The document in question is also incomplete, providing no data at all for many countries for specific years. As for Sweden specifically, see Wikipedia:
The Swedish police record each instance of sexual violence in every case separately, leading to an inflated number of cases compared to other countries. Sweden also has a comparatively wide definition of rape. This means that more sexual crimes are registered as rape than in most other countries. For example, in 2005 Sweden reformed its sex crime legislation and made the legal definition of rape much wider, which led to a marked increase in reports. Additionally, the Swedish police have improved the handling of rape cases, in an effort to decrease the number of unreported cases. For this reason, large-scale victimisation surveys have been presented by criminologists as a more reliable indicator of rape prevalence. An EU-wide survey on sexual violence against women, published by the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights (FRA) in 2014, showed Sweden was only third highest, below Denmark and Finland and a previous assessment by Brå have placed Sweden at an average level among European nations.
According to the FRA study there's a strong correlation between higher levels of gender equality and disclosure of sexual violence. This, and a greater willingness among Swedish women to report rape in relationships, may also explain the relatively high rates of reported rape in Sweden, which has a long-standing tradition of gender equality policy and legislation, as well as an established women's movement, and has been ranked as the number one country in sex equality.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#Sweden
Rockstar
02-19-17, 09:17 PM
Just in case you missed the point. Regardless how one defines rape the fact remains the number of reported cases in Sweden during a 7 year period have increased, they have not decreased. What is not known is if this increase is due to an influx of immigrants because BRÅ stopped providing those statistics in their reports. Since that statistical information is either kept secret or just no longer sought, like me, Trump can only prsesume it is due to the influx of immigrants. According to what Ive read it would seem to me too the Swedish government is lying its arse off when they say crime has gone down since 2005. Maybe petty crime is down but rape sure is isnt.
AndyJWest
02-19-17, 11:08 PM
Just in case you missed the point. Regardless how one defines rape the fact remains the number of reported cases in Sweden during a 7 year period have increased, they have not decreased. What is not known is if this increase is due to an influx of immigrants because BRÅ stopped providing those statistics in their reports. Since that statistical information is either kept secret or just no longer sought, like me, Trump can only prsesume it is due to the influx of immigrants. According to what Ive read it would seem to me too the Swedish government is lying its arse off when they say crime has gone down since 2005. Maybe petty crime is down but rape sure is isnt.
[Sociologist at the National Council for Crime Prevention in Stockholm] Klara Selin says the [rape] statistics don't represent a major crime epidemic, rather a shift in attitudes. The public debate about this sort of crime in Sweden over the past two decades has had the effect of raising awareness, she says, and encouraging women to go to the police if they have been attacked.
The police have also made efforts to improve their handling of cases, she suggests, though she doesn't deny that there has been some real increase in the number of attacks taking place - a concern also outlined in an Amnesty International report in 2010.
"There might also be some increase in actual crime because of societal changes. Due to the internet, for example, it's much easier these days to meet somebody, just the same evening if you want to. Also, alcohol consumption has increased quite a lot during this period.
"But the major explanation is partly that people go to the police more often, but also the fact that in 2005 there has been reform in the sex crime legislation, which made the legal definition of rape much wider than before." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19592372
Kptlt. Neuerburg
02-19-17, 11:35 PM
"Sweden, who would believe this."
Not me.
Either Trump does not know what happened, then he is uniformed, or just dumb. Or he is a liar. Frankly, i think he is just making things up without thinking, to underline or get his views through. Alternative facts - you have an opinion and make up events to prove it. Lot of slander has already happened, e.g. most of what Trump accused Clinton with, were plain lies.
Apart from laughing their sses off, ...
http://www.dw.com/en/trumps-sweden-terror-remark-leaves-the-internet-laughing/a-37624285
...meanwhile Sweden has officially asked for an explanation from the US government.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-trump-sweden-idUKKBN15Y0QP
Entertaining :) This might explain something about how Trump gets his stories so.... mixed up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xecEV4dSAXE
Bilge_Rat
02-20-17, 06:19 AM
well the problems in Sweden are well known to anyone with even a passing interest in international news and have been reported for the past few years.
Sweden had very low immigration for decades and a very homogeonous population. With the Iraq war, they started taking in relatively large numbers of muslim refugees which caused all sorts of disription, from strain on the social services to cultural conflict to, yes, a rising crime rate.
This led to the rise of the swedish Democrats party with a anti-immigration platform which went from nowhere to one of the most popular party in Sweden.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/09/how-sweden-became-an-example-of-how-not-to-handle-immigration/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3317978/Torn-apart-open-door-migrants-Sweden-seen-Europe-s-liberal-nation-violent-crime-soaring-Far-Right-march-reports-SUE-REID.html
Rule 1 of the Donald club - Don't criticise the Donald:
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/white-house-nsc-aide-craig-deare-dismissed-235175
Rockstar
02-20-17, 06:40 AM
rape, its a shift in attitute alright.
ikalugin
02-20-17, 06:49 AM
rape, its a shift in attitute alright.
If you define rape as looking sternly at a woman then yea.
Bilge_Rat
02-20-17, 07:22 AM
Rule 1 of the Donald club - Don't criticise the Donald:
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/white-house-nsc-aide-craig-deare-dismissed-235175
Obama did the same thing.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jun/23/mcchrystal-leaves-white-house-war-meeting/
Obama did the same thing.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jun/23/mcchrystal-leaves-white-house-war-meeting/
One would hope that presidents would learn from the errors of their predecessors...
One would hope that presidents would learn from the errors of their predecessors...U.S. Presidents are by definition obsessively egotistical or self-centered. If you look at it objectively what normal, socially adjusted person would even want that job? I think Gerald Ford was the only President we had that actually didn't want to be president. (victim of circumstance).
u crank
02-20-17, 08:53 AM
One would hope that presidents would learn from the errors of their predecessors...
One would think that employees of Presidents would learn from the errors of their predecessors..:haha:
Catfish
02-20-17, 09:04 AM
^ "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
(George Santayana)
"No human has ever remembered his past."
(Me)
ikalugin
02-20-17, 09:31 AM
https://warisboring.com/how-putin-might-yank-away-trumps-control-over-america-s-nuclear-weapons-40fa4e5d6638?mc_cid=535ef65ae8&mc_eid=3671c4393f#.195bzteux
Platapus
02-20-17, 10:16 AM
The problem is people who remember history but believe that this time "it's different"... when it ain't.
One would hope that presidents would learn from the errors of their predecessors...
What, firing insubordinate employees? If anything he needs to start firing more of them.
Bilge_Rat
02-20-17, 05:32 PM
Trump appoints Lieutenant-General H.R. McMaster as National Security Adviser:
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/trump-picks-lt-gen-hr-mcmaster-to-be-national-security-adviser-235212
not sure if this is a good or bad move.
McMaster is well known to anyone who follows the Pentagon. His credentials are impeccable. He was a troop commander at the now legendary battle of 73 EASTING in 1991 when a U.S. armored unit ran into and destroyed a Iraqi Republican Guard Armored division.
OTOH, he is a Russia Hawk who has been pushing for an increase in the Army's budget to counter the Russian threat:
The story was recalled to me a few weeks ago by a senior Pentagon officer in citing the April 5 testimony of Army leaders before a Senate Armed Services Subcommittee. The panel delivered a grim warning about the future of the U.S. armed forces: Unless the Army budget was increased, allowing both for more men and more materiel, members of the panel said, the United States was in danger of being “outranged and outgunned” in the next war and, in particular, in a confrontation with Russia. Vladimir Putin’s military, the panel averred, had outstripped the U.S. in modern weapons capabilities. And the Army’s shrinking size meant that “the Army of the future will be too small to secure the nation.” It was a sobering assessment delivered by four of the most respected officers in the Army—including Lt. Gen. H.R. McMaster, his service’s leading intellectual. The claim is the prevailing view among senior Army officers, who fear that Army readiness and modernization programs are being weakened by successive cuts to the U.S. defense budget.
But not everyone was buying it.
“This is the ‘Chicken-Little, sky-is-falling’ set in the Army,” the senior Pentagon officer said. “These guys want us to believe the Russians are 10 feet tall. There’s a simpler explanation: The Army is looking for a purpose, and a bigger chunk of the budget. And the best way to get that is to paint the Russians as being able to land in our rear and on both of our flanks at the same time. What a crock.”
The Army panel’s assessment of the Russian danger was reinforced by an article that appeared in these pages two days later. The article reported on an expansive study that McMaster has ordered to collect the lessons of Ukraine. It paraphrased Army leaders and military experts who warn the Russian-backed rebel army has been using “surprisingly lethal tanks” and artillery as well as “swarms of unmanned aerial vehicles” to run roughshod over Ukrainian nationalists. While the reporting about the Army study made headlines in the major media, a large number in the military’s influential retired community, including former senior Army officers, rolled their eyes.
“That’s news to me,” one of these highly respected officers told me. “Swarms of unmanned aerial vehicles? Surprisingly lethal tanks? How come this is the first we’ve heard of it?”
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/05/army-internal-fight-russia-defense-budget-213885
Not saying Russia is not a threat, but many in the Pentagon, including McMaster have been, let us say, exaggerating the threat to get a bigger budget out of Congress.
Not sure why Trump would pick him, unless he wants to pick someone who absolutely none of his critics can accuse of being soft on Russia, in which case, he is the perfect guy! :up:
Let's just hope he does not get us into WW3.
Mr Quatro
02-20-17, 06:32 PM
Let's just hope he does not get us into WW3.
It's not our time yet ... Israel has to be surrounded, but May 2018 is just around the corner which will mark the 70th anniversary of the Statehood of Israel and oddly enough Israel stopped being a state in 70ad with the destruction of the temple.
Maybe just a little war though with Mexico :o
Rockstar
02-20-17, 07:34 PM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-XU6D14vzB7s/UnK-j1opS8I/AAAAAAAAAzs/3YRZw__kNZw/s1600/war_is_a_racket_cov_rev.jpeg
What, firing insubordinate employees? If anything he needs to start firing more of them.
It's a Catch-22, if you fire everyone who openly disagrees with you then you encourage a 'Yes-man' atmosphere which will completely skew your outlook on matters.
Trump appoints Lieutenant-General H.R. McMaster as National Security Adviser:
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/trump-picks-lt-gen-hr-mcmaster-to-be-national-security-adviser-235212
not sure if this is a good or bad move.
McMaster is well known to anyone who follows the Pentagon. His credentials are impeccable. He was a troop commander at the now legendary battle of 73 EASTING in 1991 when a U.S. armored unit ran into and destroyed a Iraqi Republican Guard Armored division.
OTOH, he is a Russia Hawk who has been pushing for an increase in the Army's budget to counter the Russian threat:
Not saying Russia is not a threat, but many in the Pentagon, including McMaster have been, let us say, exaggerating the threat to get a bigger budget out of Congress.
Not sure why Trump would pick him, unless he wants to pick someone who absolutely none of his critics can accuse of being soft on Russia, in which case, he is the perfect guy! :up:
Let's just hope he does not get us into WW3.
I think it's a good appointment, McMaster seems a smart guy, and considering he wrote a book criticising Generals for not standing up to LBJ then I should hope that he will feel free to give the Donald a full and frank opinion.
The Pentagon has been over-exaggerating the threat from Russia since 1945, remember the 'missile gap', or 'First Strike'?
Not that there isn't a need to upgrade some vital components of the 'nuclear' and the 'cyber' but I wouldn't be worried about him starting WWIII, I'd be more worried about him collapsing the US economy as he tries to Reagan the Russians, either that or he and Trump will have a big row over the Russian threat and he'll resign.
It's not our time yet ... Israel has to be surrounded
Well...it's not exactly holding hands and singing Kumbaya with its neighbours... :03:
Besides, trying to predict such things, don't forget Mark 13:32. :03:
It's a Catch-22, if you fire everyone who openly disagrees with you then you encourage a 'Yes-man' atmosphere which will completely skew your outlook on matters.
Openly disagrees? That's what you call refusing to carry our an order from the boss? I agree that having "yes-men" isn't a good thing but that doesn't mean insubordination should be tolerated ether. She got the sacking she asked for by playing politics, simple as.
AVGWarhawk
02-21-17, 10:26 AM
How is Sweden doing today?
Bilge_Rat
02-21-17, 11:02 AM
riots break out in Sweden:
It would appear the mainstream media (along with several celebrities and Swedish politicians) is going to be apologizing to President Trump once again.
Having spent the entire new cycle trying to ignore the immigrant crisis facing Sweden, and pin the ignorant tail on Trump, both Dagbladet and Expressen reports riots breaking out in the highly immigrant concentrated Stockholdm borough of Rinkeby, Sweden with police firing warning shots as 100s of young people throw stones and burn cars.
During the evening hundreds of young people gathered in the center of Rinkeby, well known for its high concentration of immigrants and people with immigrant ancestry.
Rinkeby is a known problem area in Stockholm. It was here NRK journalist Anders Magnus was attacked with stones last spring, and here the police never go in the evenings without reinforcements from other patrols according to Dabladet. A freelancer the newspaper spoke to, described the situation as serious.
"I've been in some turmoil, but this is something extra. It looks like a war zone here", he was quoted as saying .
Freelance Photographer Janne Åkesson has also been at the site Monday night and early Tuesday. "They threw stones at police and police fired warning shots. I got out when it was at its worst" he said to Dagbladet. He added that there were many youths with hoods and hats on.
"It was very chaotic. I have seen much in Rinkeby: they burn cars all the time - unfortunately this was beyond the ordinary."
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-02-20/meanwhile-rioting-breaks-out-sweden
yup, integration of refugees is going great, nothing to see here. :ping:
Bilge_Rat
02-21-17, 11:10 AM
article and video from last year (may 2016) on the rape increase in Sweden:
How did peaceful Sweden go from being a quiet, low-crime country to being the country with the second-highest incidence of rape in the world? Why has Sweden experienced a 1,472% increase in the annual number of rapes?
Here is Ingrid Carlqvist of is Gatestone Institute to explain...
https://youtu.be/sdGPPLmR5Bc
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-31/swedens-migrant-rape-epidemic-explained
Openly disagrees? That's what you call refusing to carry our an order from the boss? I agree that having "yes-men" isn't a good thing but that doesn't mean insubordination should be tolerated ether. She got the sacking she asked for by playing politics, simple as.
She? Re-wind a mo, I was talking about Craig Deare, not Yates.
How is Sweden doing today?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39033165
So...good old Sweden, the land of pillage, rape and plunder.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Sweden#Sex_crimes
The high number of reported rapes in Sweden can partly be explained by differing legal systems, offence definitions, terminological variations, recording practices and statistical conventions, making any cross-national comparison on rape statistics difficult.I think we had a similar discussion about the UK and US in regards to how violent crime is reported, and what constituted violent crime a while ago in one of the gun control threads.
But to clarify, Swedish police record every single incidence of sexual assault as an individual case, so in a case of domestic violence, every incidence of sexual assault gets its own seperate recording, which has lead to an artificial inflation of sexual assault figures which started in 2005, six years before the 2011 refugee influx.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C5CznreUcAABigC.jpg
See the sharp jump between 2004 and 2005? In short one of the reasons that the rate is so high is because in other countries the incidences would not even be counted as sexual assault, or perhaps even reported. Even the UNODC which is the oft-quoted report when it comes to the claim that Sweden has the highest sexual assault rate in the world says:
"Please note that when using the figures, any cross-national comparisons should be conducted with caution because of the differences that exist between the legal definitions of offences in countries, or the different methods of offence counting and recording."
But, it's a convenient figure, and a handy graph to use for making a point, and so that's all good.
https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/styles/story_medium/public/thumbnails/image/2017/02/21/13/rape-graph.jpg
Huh...look at the USA...that's quite a high rate there isn't it? Must be all the....Mexicans? :hmmm:
Fake News Sources:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/feb/20/what-statistics-say-about-immigration-and-sweden/
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-sweden-donald-trump-rape-capital-of-europe-refugees-malmo-why-wrong-debunked-claim-a7591636.html
AVGWarhawk
02-21-17, 01:54 PM
So how's Sweden?
So how's Sweden?Still gay.
Catfish
02-21-17, 02:05 PM
Dowly what happened to your head? :o
Dowly what happened to your head? :o
Did I lose it again?! :doh:
AVGWarhawk
02-21-17, 02:30 PM
Still gay.
I'm overjoyed everyone is happy!
She? Re-wind a mo, I was talking about Craig Deare, not Yates. Mr Deare was mid management, he is supposed to implement presidential policy, not make it or even be publicly critical of it. He should have voiced his concerns with the council then went about implementing the policy. If he still had reservations, then he should have resigned.
I keep telling you guys, Trump is going to run the executive branch like a business, not like a political bureaucracy. He will keep firing people until he finds ones that will do the work and not play politics.
Trump is going to run the executive branch like a business, not like a political bureaucracy.
So we can expect the US to file for bankruptcy to the IMF in a year or two then? :03:
So we can expect the US to file for bankruptcy to the IMF in a year or two then? :03:it will only be a chapter 11 filing just to restructure the government. :yeah:
So we can expect the US to file for bankruptcy to the IMF in a year or two then? :03:
Would you prefer we just print more money?
Would you prefer we just print more money?
Well, it'd be nice if when you did fall over you didn't take the entire world down with you. :yep:
Platapus
02-21-17, 04:33 PM
Trump appoints Lieutenant-General H.R. McMaster as National Security Adviser:
OTOH, he is a Russia Hawk who has been pushing for an increase in the Army's budget to counter the Russian threat:
Honestly, how many Army Generals don't push for more funding for the Army. It's kinda what they do.
Honestly, how many Army Generals don't push for more funding for the Army. It's kinda what they do.
We have way too many generals. These are the numbers on active duty in the four services at the moment:
0-7 Brigadier General / Rear Admiral (LH) 444
0-8 Major General / Rear Admiral (UH) 285
0-9 Lieutenant / General Vice Admiral 132
0-10 General / Admiral 39
Rockstar
02-21-17, 10:02 PM
Border Patrol is hiring! Watched a TV commercial last night advertising the government is looking for a few thousand good men.
Onkel Neal
02-21-17, 10:17 PM
I stayed in Spanga and Kista during my stay in Sweden. Was nothing out of sorts as far as I could see last summer. There were a lot of non-Swedes living in that area for sure. It felt like I was living in Baghdad.
Jeff-Groves
02-21-17, 10:33 PM
Christ! You all lost me!!
What the hell does Sweden have to do with US Politics?
:06:
Did Trump take a poop there or what?
:doh:
Christ! You all lost me!!
What the hell does Sweden have to do with US Politics?
:06:
Did Trump take a poop there or what?
:doh:
Trump is going to invade Sweden to destroy Ikea and then take all of their strategic...erm...Abba supplies? :hmmm:
Rockstar
02-22-17, 07:04 AM
Trump can have my savory Swedish meatballs when he takes them from my. cold dead hands!
He's not taking my Cederlunds Torr Caloric Punch!!!:nope:
Mr Quatro
02-22-17, 07:32 AM
Trump can have my savory Swedish meatballs when he takes them from my. cold dead hands!
Do you have pork in your Swedish meatballs? I don't like pork, Jews don't eat pork, Muslims don't eat pork, the US Congress and the US Senate like pork for sure. :yep:
AVGWarhawk
02-22-17, 08:54 AM
Trump is going to invade Sweden to destroy Ikea and then take all of their strategic...erm...Abba supplies? :hmmm:
Fake news. :O:
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