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If what Trump did is impeachable, and I don't agree that it is, then Democrat Senators asking Ukraine for help against Trump in the Mueller investigation is impeachable as well or does this only apply to Republicans?
A successful impeachment would lead to an even worse case scenario ... :yep:
Your comment made me remember some thoughts I had about this eventually impeachment.
If Trump is impeached, what will happen on the political scene and in the society ?
Will there be political chaos ?
Trump is, as I see it, the President who have the most dedicated supporters and even the most haters among the American voters.
It is therefore interesting to see what's going to happen.
I don't think there will be riot in the streets, maybe some demonstration.
Markus
em2nought
09-26-19, 06:01 PM
A successful impeachment would lead to an even worse case scenario ... :yep:
My guess would be one side aiming dirty lawyers, lousy comedians, yellow journalists, and the occasional crying child at the opposition, the other side would be aiming their evil "weapons of war". :yeah:
Mr Quatro
09-26-19, 06:32 PM
Your comment made me remember some thoughts I had about this eventually impeachment.
If Trump is impeached, what will happen on the political scene and in the society ?
Will there be political chaos ?
Trump is, as I see it, the President who have the most dedicated supporters and even the most haters among the American voters.
It is therefore interesting to see what's going to happen.
I don't think there will be riot in the streets, maybe some demonstration.
Markus
No Markus more fear of the proposed democrats policies than a riot ...
General health care for all
Open borders
All student loans paid in full
Green plan that would cost 63 trillion dollars
Campaign promises that we haven't even heard of yet
If what Trump did is impeachable, and I don't agree that it is, then Democrat Senators asking Ukraine for help against Trump in the Mueller investigation is impeachable as well or does this only apply to Republicans?
It's not even close to same. Senators asking Ukraine to cooperate with an on-going, official investigation as per the 1998 treaty of mutual legal assistance is widely different than the President of the United States asking the President of Ukraine to open an investigation into a private US citizen.
No Markus more fear of the proposed democrats policies than a riot ...
General health care for all
Open borders
All student loans paid in full
Green plan that would cost 63 trillion dollars
Campaign promises that we haven't even heard of yet
As compared to Republican policies where bringing down the deficit is a stinking joke we will all pay for! Care to try for 2 trillion? are the Trumpettes up for it!
When I look at the state of the Republican Party....Reagan and McCain would turn in the grave. This party has lost all its values those leader and others represented once - domestic and foreign. They made America acting as a bright beacon - uniting most people in the West behind it - to the benefit of all, including their own citizens.
They seem to be truly desperate if they only think they can "survive" following this president, who would be more suitable as a leader for North Korea or a similar state.
It is hard to believe that 35-40% still seem to buy the lying and conspiracy theory of the current administration. But yeah, in Europe we seem to follow close, nowadays.
Skybird
09-27-19, 05:19 AM
First two Republican governors stepped forward and demand an inquiry. What is even more stunning is how relatively quiet the Republicans have become. They were more noisy in the Donald's defence on earlier occasions. So far they added 1 and 1 and always got a result of 11. Right now it seems they improved to getting a result of Roman number II, which is much closer to the truth, at least some of them might finally come to get the trick with Arab numbers. Media report a deep rift is going through the party.
Perhaps they've finally understood how damaging it would be to defend Trump, especially if dems go full broadside and bring everything for all to see.
u crank
09-27-19, 06:52 AM
I cannot see how this whole 'whistleblower complaint' as a basis for impeachment will turn out well for the Democrats. I can see one casualty being Joe Biden's campaign for the Dem nomination. It won't look good for Obama as well. A lot of stuff that we don't know about the Biden's corruption will come out if there is an impeachment.
I think Nancy Pelosi has stepped in it. The Democrat party should be spending all of it's time and energy to get a viable candidate for the 2020 election. So far they haven't. Despite all of his weaknesses Biden is their most reasonable candidate and now they are going to hurt him by exposing his dealings with his son. It's already public knowledge but now it will be in the Fox news cycle every day.
Perhaps they've finally understood how damaging it would be to defend Trump, especially if dems go full broadside and bring everything for all to see.
Sorry but no. If you are a Republican Senator in a deep red district and you vote to remove a Republican President from office for something as shady as the 'whistleblower complaint' your career is over. It's going to have to be something a lot more damaging than that. Democratic Senators did the same thing in acquitting Bill Clinton.
Republican voters have long realised that for the Democrats, there is only one kind of legitimate presidential election: one where they win. :D
But yes many Republicans are conflicted. I think Kevin D. Williamson sums it up the best.
1) I am glad that Hillary Rodham Clinton is not the president;
2) Based on what we know right now, I do not want to see Donald Trump impeached and removed from office;
3) I do not want to see Elizabeth Warren being sworn in as president in January 2021;
4) Donald Trump cannot be gone soon enough.
Bilge_Rat
09-27-19, 09:00 AM
Sorry but no. If you are a Republican Senator in a deep red district and you vote to remove a Republican President from office for something as shady as the 'whistleblower complaint' your career is over. It's going to have to be something a lot more damaging than that. Democratic Senators did the same thing in acquitting Bill Clinton.
Exactly, the GOP Senators will not vote to convict based on this.
Personally, I am not convinced the Dems will really impeach. If Pelosi was serious, she would follow the Watergate pattern and set up a special committe with a respected congressman as the head. Adam Schiff is just a political hack with no credibility. This smells more like Pelosi wanting to appease her base.
Even if the House votes to impeach, I don't expect a full blown trial in the Senate. I would not be surprised if McConnell either just shelves the whole thing until after the 2020 election or just has the Senate dismiss the charge on the basis that there is no merit to it.
Skybird
09-27-19, 09:46 AM
The dems had no choice. Thjey had to take this very risky path in the light of the recently released facts. If they would not take these as a reaosn to go after Trump'S throat, they would have lost all credibility and the whole concept of impeachment would have become a hollow, dead corpus. Thei8r risk lies in that if they do not succeed, Trump will trumpted his Trumpian triumph out into the world and his followers would shout even louder, the elections then probably would already be a dead race.
Risky it is, but they had no choice.
Personally I think this time it may not be as simple for Trump anymore. He is in danger. But then, the whole institution of the presidency is in danger - due to him.
The season is opened.
And Selenskij. What a carricature of a "leader".
u crank
09-27-19, 10:27 AM
The dems had no choice.
Sorry but no. If you cannot find a crime that is a sure thing impeachable offence that would have bipartisan support then you are just going through the motions. Trump will not be removed from office like that. It is a waste of political capital that may come back to bite them in the butt.
One has to wonder about the Democrat party brain trust. Did Nancy Pelosi consult with DNC chair Tom Perez before deciding on an impeachment inquiry without actually seeing or reading the relevant documents? How would that conversation have gone?
Tom.." You know this is going to expose Joe don't you?
Nancy.." yea but orange man bad!!"
They are 13 months out from an election and you destroy the front runners chances. What was she thinking? One might be tempted to think it might be intentional. No .. they wouldn't do that would they? They wouldn't rig a primary would they? Oh wait yea they would. Just ask Bernie Sanders.
AVGWarhawk
09-27-19, 11:56 AM
The dems had no choice. Thjey had to take this very risky path in the light of the recently released facts. If they would not take these as a reaosn to go after Trump'S throat, they would have lost all credibility and the whole concept of impeachment would have become a hollow, dead corpus. Thei8r risk lies in that if they do not succeed, Trump will trumpted his Trumpian triumph out into the world and his followers would shout even louder, the elections then probably would already be a dead race.
Risky it is, but they had no choice.
Personally I think this time it may not be as simple for Trump anymore. He is in danger. But then, the whole institution of the presidency is in danger - due to him.
The season is opened.
And Selenskij. What a carricature of a "leader".
Never get past the Senate.
The Crypt Keeper Pelosi had plenty of choices.
AVGWarhawk
09-27-19, 11:57 AM
Exactly, the GOP Senators will not vote to convict based on this.
Personally, I am not convinced the Dems will really impeach. If Pelosi was serious, she would follow the Watergate pattern and set up a special committe with a respected congressman as the head. Adam Schiff is just a political hack with no credibility. This smells more like Pelosi wanting to appease her base.
Even if the House votes to impeach, I don't expect a full blown trial in the Senate. I would not be surprised if McConnell either just shelves the whole thing until after the 2020 election or just has the Senate dismiss the charge on the basis that there is no merit to it.
McConnell will shelve it.
em2nought
09-27-19, 01:40 PM
Walmart will be kicking themselves for missing out on the increase in .223 purchases by Trump supporters. :D
Kellyanne Conway: "We don't need Ukraine's help to beat Biden any more than we needed Russia's help to beat Hillary."
:)
Kellyanne Conway: "We don't need Ukraine's help to beat Biden any more than we needed Russia's help to beat Hillary."
:)
...then why was Trump so insistently and repeatedly nearly begging, and, evidently, felt he needed to resort to extortion, for the Ukraine government to dig up, or manfacture, dirt against a political rival? Doesn't look like the actions of someone who, himself, is confident he can win re-election based on his own merits...
<O>
...then why was Trump so insistently and repeatedly nearly begging, and, evidently, felt he needed to resort to extortion, for the Ukraine government to dig up, or manfacture, dirt against a political rival? Doesn't look like the actions of someone who, himself, is confident he can win re-election based on his own merits...
<O>Did you actually read the transcript of the call along with a copy of the "whistle-blower complaint"? Or are you just listening to what the talking heads are saying.
Did you actually read the transcript of the call along with a copy of the "whistle-blower complaint"? Or are you just listening to what the talking heads are saying.
I think you know the answer to that. :)
Did you actually read the transcript of the call along with a copy of the "whistle-blower complaint"? Or are you just listening to what the talking heads are saying.
Yes, I downloaded and read both and, in addition, I sought out analysis from various other sources, from both sides, in order to gain a better understanding of the issues...
..so, then, what was your single source for analysis?: Fox news/Hannity, Breitbart, etc. ...
..or do you just accept the spoon-fed Bandini of Trump with out critical thinking... :D
I think you know the answer to that. :)
...and, very obviously, neither of you knew the answer...
...kinda makes one wonder what else you two don't know... :03:
<O>
BTW, no one has read the transcript of the call since the only thing released by the Trump Administration was a 'memorandum', a cobbled-together summation of the 'recollections' of persons ostensibly present during the call; the actual transcript, and supporting media, was hurriedly locked away on a super secure server by WH lawyers who apparently realized just how egregious and damning the call actually was and sought to bury the evidence. So, when I said I read the 'transcript', I meant I had read the WH proffered 'transcript' since, again, the actual transcript languishes until legal actions by investigator lets it see the light of day...
<O>
Mr Quatro
09-27-19, 08:13 PM
vienna! The whistleblower didn't see anything either. He wasn't even there. He heard it through a third party, plus the whistleblower is ex-cia with ties to Chuck Schummer.
This is a circus with out and out hatred on both sides. :yep:
Now they will drag this out as long as they can to support the leading democrats choice for POTUS :yep:
Skybird
09-28-19, 05:22 AM
New movie out:
Puppet Wars: Palpatine Prevails!
Rockstar
09-28-19, 06:07 AM
Trumps inquiring about Biden’s corruption is not as bad as Biden’s corruption.
vienna! The whistleblower didn't see anything either. He wasn't even there. He heard it through a third party, plus the whistleblower is ex-cia with ties to Chuck Schummer.
This is a circus with out and out hatred on both sides. :yep:
Now they will drag this out as long as they can to support the leading democrats choice for POTUS :yep:
Mr. Quatro!! So excitable! Careful, ya might pop your Pampers... :haha:
The first paragraph of your post is dead wrong and that was immediately obvious from your use of the term "ex-cia": the whistleblower has been acknowledged as a current CIA officer who was once attached to the Trump WH; another clue to his current status is further reinforced by the fact he filed a whistleblower claim as a means to protect himself from workplace retaliation and/or harassment, something that would be unnecessary if he was an "ex-" anything...
Since you didn't supply a cite to back up your claims, I am puzzled where you got your information. As of this posting, the actual identity of the whistleblower (WB) is unknown, except to probably less than a handful of people, which is part of the intent of The Whistleblower Protection Act of 1989: protective anonymity to those in the Federal employ who wish to report government waste, corruption, fraud, misuse of powers, etc., etc.; with out any knowledge of the person's actual identity, I don't know where the claim of a connection to Schumer comes from and it would appear either to be fake news of fraud for the purpose of muddying the waters...
As far as the claims of 'hearsay' and the WB not actually being present during the call, these claims are straw man/red herring intended to deflect from Trump's own illegalities and misconducts. The WB openly acknowledges he wasn't present in his complaint, so its not in any sense a shocking 'bombshell' of any import; the same with the so-called 'hearsay', acknowledged, detailed, and fully described without any 'bombshell' value. The comparing of notes and discussion of meetings is common practice in the Intelligence and Diplomatic circles and is intended to foster an open exchange of views so as to encourage looking at issues from many viewpoints to seek out possibly previously unforeseen problems and/or solutions...
In actuality, the identities of some of the officials cited by the WB in his complaint are known to the Senior level investigating officials who have been validating the WB's cliams; this link is to a NYT article describing how the WB's claims have been handled; it also points out the WB tried to make known his, and other officials' concerns through another means, but in fear his report(s) would just be buried and/or his job put in jeopardy, so he then filed a formal complaint as 'insurance':
White House Knew of Whistle-Blower’s Allegations Soon After Trump’s Call With Ukraine Leader --
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/26/us/politics/who-is-whistleblower.html?module=inline
I think you may have confused the WB with one of his attorneys, Andrew Bakaj, and it appears you may have gotten that "deocratic operative" appellation from this Federalist website posting:
Attorney For Anti-Trump ‘Whistleblower’ Worked For Hillary Clinton, Chuck Schumer --
https://thefederalist.com/2019/09/24/attorney-for-anti-trump-whistleblower-worked-for-hillary-clinton-chuck-schumer/
The article use the term "Democratic operative" with very, very little substation of that claim. Here is a link with a bit more info on Bakaj:
Who is the Ukraine Whistleblower's Attorney? Andrew Bakaj Represents Group Dedicated to Helping Whistleblowers --
https://www.newsweek.com/who-ukraine-whistleblower-andrew-bakaj-1461400
So, the donation to the Biden campaign was a whopping US$100.00 (that ought to buy him a heap of influence :haha:). As for the glaring headline of one of the articles, "Attorney For Anti-Trump ‘Whistleblower’ Worked For Hillary Clinton, Chuck Schumer", is concerned, I guess the Federalist author was kind of hoping none of his readers would actually click on the link in the second paragraph of his article (oddly, the link is on the word "according" rather than "LinkedIn page" as might have been expected and logical; intentional misdirection?):
Andrew Bakaj's LinkedIn Page:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewbakaj/?trk=people-guest_profile-result-card_result-card_full-click
It is true Bakaj worked for Schumer and Clinton -- 18 Years ago!; and he worked for both for a period of five (5) months each as an office intern; my guess is it was part of Law School intern rotation where students spend a short time with a series of 'mentors'; I seriously doubt either Schumer or Clinton have much of a memory of Bakaj (just another student intern passing through, one of many over the years) nor is there any evidence of any substantial continued connection between the three of them.
Bakaj comes to the area of whistleblower defense via the school of hard knocks; in 2014, while working at the CIA's Office of Inspector General, Bakaj took up the cause of some fellow investigators who had concerns about the activities of some Senior CIA officials; Bakaj filed a complaint and the CIA's IG office started an investigation until it was halted by the same complained-about Senior officials who demanded to know the names of the employees who had made the complaints; Bakaj refused and was placed on administrative leave and, later had his security clearance revoked; after a period of time Bkaj chose to just retire from the CIA. Because of the gross misuse of power by the Senior officials, the Obama Administration revamped the whistleblower prcess and put some ral teeth into protecting whistleblowers; Bakaj's case was subsequently reviewed bt the Dept. of Homeland Security and they made a finding of misuse of executive power and gross retaliation bt the CIA senior officials, vindicating Bakaj, (I'd say Bakaj could rightly claim "total exoneration" :03:) who had, by then opted to go into the private sector...
So, Bkaj's passion for defending whistleblowers comes honestly...
BTW, aside from the fact Joe Biden was acting as the representative of the Obama WH and under the President's orders when he withheld those funds for Ukraine back then, and that more than a few other nations and entities were equally pissed off at the Ukranian Special Prosecutor, Viktor Shokin, (whom Trump, his minions and Trumpettes are trying to paint as a victim of Joe biden's alleged corruption), the depth of corruption of Shokin's own prosecutorial office is stunning:
Viktor Shokin --
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Shokin
Among the many, many offenses Shokin was reported to have committed, he was using information gather in his investigation not to prosecute criminality, but rather, using the info as a basis for extorting money from suspects in return for not publicly exposing their crimes...
...and his successor, Yuriy Lutsenko, was seemingly no better, having been a convicted felon and who, with no law degree or education, got himself appointed as Chief Prosecutor of Ukraine, a post he held until the new Ukranian President took office a month or so back and who had stated he would fire the Chief Prosecutor, Lutsenko. Lutsenko has spent the period between the election of the new President and his inauguration feverishly trying to peddle, for the highest bidders, highly suspect intel he'd gather during his reign as Chief Persecutor; among his prospective buyers has been Giuliani, who is seeking any 'dirt' on Biden, regardless of the source....
Well, this exercise appears to have cured my insomnia... :D
<O>
Onkel Neal
09-28-19, 10:25 AM
vienna! The whistleblower didn't see anything either. He wasn't even there. He heard it through a third party, plus the whistleblower is ex-cia with ties to Chuck Schummer.
Yep, in court that's referred to as hearsay.
To a liberal it's written in scripture.
Mr Quatro
09-28-19, 01:40 PM
Mr. Quatro!! So excitable! Careful, ya might pop your Pampers... :haha:
The first paragraph of your post is dead wrong and that was immediately obvious from your use of the term "ex-cia": the whistleblower has been acknowledged as a current CIA officer who was once attached to the Trump WH; another clue to his current status is further reinforced by the fact he filed a whistleblower claim as a means to protect himself from workplace retaliation and/or harassment, something that would be unnecessary if he was an "ex-" anything...
<O>
I just love spinning you up vienna and no I don't wear pampers, but thank you for the smiley anyway.
I assumed the WB was an ex-cia by the time I reported it. This is not much different than what VP Biden did with his son Hunter in the Ukraine and his trip to China aboard Airforce 2 to obtain a billion dollars investment.
And what about the China deal? What if the names were Trump and son would that be conflict of interest?
https://nypost.com/2019/09/23/why-is-most-of-the-media-circling-the-wagons-to-protect-hunter-biden/
A foreign natural gas company brings a top US politician’s son onto its board, even though he has no relevant expertise, for $50,000 a month. The politician travels to that country and demands the removal of a prosecutor who’s investigating the company. That prosecutor then gets axed, and the investigation shut down.
Imagine the son was Eric Trump, and the politician Donald Trump. Would the media be dismissing it as nothing worth looking at, a “debunked” issue?
More dirt to come will hurt VP Biden more than it does Trump.
Giuliani asserted that media coverage of a brewing scandal involving Trump and Ukraine will hurt Biden's presidential campaign more than Trump.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/rudy-giuliani-promises-more-dirt-on-joe-biden-and-drug-challenged-son
"Biden was asked about it for the first time on Saturday. Biden was asked about it on Sunday. You start asking Biden, he's going to fall apart," Giuliani said. "It's not over. There's a lot more evidence I'm going to put out. I put one out today: money laundering. I got a bigger one for tomorrow. I got a bigger one for the day after."
"If they can escape China, we literally don't have a system of justice left in this country," Giuliani continued. "$1.5 billion when you are negotiating with China on sensitive issues, and your family gets enriched with an investment in a private equity fund, now why would China give the money to a drug-challenged private equity owner except to influence his father?"
Giuliani's comment on Hunter Biden being "drug-challenged" refers to Hunter's admitted past use of drugs for which he has undergone rehab.
Nobody is above the law also includes Democratic candidates for President.
Skybird
09-28-19, 02:06 PM
Yep, in court that's referred to as hearsay.
And how do courts call the premedidated manipulation, removal, destruction or hiding of evidence? Phone call protocolls in their unedited and original completeness, for example?
Too much discussion of semantic here, and America seems to be stuck in it from toes to crown. The real issues, the one that really counts, get ignoredd that way.
Which probably is the purpoose of the whole exercise. Distraction tactics. Trump set Rome on fire, and the peop0le only care for whether he used matches or a lgihter, was advised to do it or acted by his own idea.
The only fact that really counts is that Rome is on fire. And the only two questions are how to extinguish the fire as efficiently anf quickly as possible, and how to hold the one responsible who set it on fire. Anything else is just a distraction at this stage. Means: is almost irrelevant.
em2nought
09-28-19, 06:48 PM
There are rumbling$ that many major regular democratic donor$ are not going to be happy if Warren is the nominee. :up:
Skybird
09-29-19, 05:24 AM
I have read Snowden's book now. Imprsssive. I saw him in two long tV interviews and was absolutely sympathtic to the way he got across, and the book supports my intiial impressions of the person behind it all. This is no famehungry poser or attention.craving disloyal knowitall. He is very serious, I see lots of integrity in his character, and a straight mind that knew exactly in advance what he got himself into and what losses he would suffer from doing what he did (with help from strong supporters). He unmasked crimes that are agaimnst law and constitution, and for that I fail to see the moral argument that this turns him into a villain t hat must be prosecuted. When subordunates see their superiors and top of the list commanders violating the law and rules and constitution, it shoukd be regarded as their duty to not stay loyal to them, no matter what, but to help ending the wrongding by calling it out. He did, in a format that wpuld make it impssible for the offenders to hide the evidence in time.
This is a very different character than for example Julian Assange. I wish Snowden well.
And one thing, Mr. Snowden: Thank you. Thank you a lot. We owe you, even if many of the bigot establishment defenders deny that and eye you with foam on their lips, for you threatened their personal power interests.
We now need somebody who unlocks the removed Trump calls from that hidden WH security server. And not only Trump must be helf liable - all those aids who helped him to cover up must be held accountable, too. We had this kind of ever helpful compkices in Germany, too, seventy, eighty years ago. We know this wicked breed all to well. Their loyalty - in truth is nothign els ebut treason against the people, and the nation, and the constitution, and the spirit in which the founding fathers did what they did back then.
We now need somebody who unlocks the removed Trump calls from that hidden WH security server. And not only Trump must be helf liable - all those aids who helped him to cover up must be held accountable, too. We had this kind of ever helpful compkices in Germany, too, seventy, eighty years ago. We know this wicked breed all to well. Their loyalty - in truth is nothign els ebut treason against the people, and the nation, and the constitution, and the spirit in which the founding fathers did what they did back then.
What was that thing about using nazi comparisons meaning you have lost the argument Comrade?
Here is a link to an annotated text of the whistleblower's complaint:
The whistleblower complaint, annotated
A line-by-line analysis of the report that triggered the Ukraine scandal. --
https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2019/09/politics/whistleblower-complaint-annotated/
...and here is a link to an annotated text of the Trump's phone call:
Trump's Ukraine phone call, annotated --
https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2019/09/politics/trump-ukraine-transcript-annotated/
<O>
https://i.cleveland.com/resizer/n3_bnGFnLtXOhpnqRqLid2eFSYQ=/960x0/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-advancelocal.s3.amazonaws.com/public/W2OF5EYXLBEDHAFFEB6UJDAWTU.jpg
<O>
Mr Quatro
09-29-19, 08:09 PM
How can there be two (2) CIA's ... ?
One for you and one against you :yep:
The swamp has a spy in it ... That thinks like a chess master.
Who changed the requirement for whistle blowers to have first hand information is the guilty party. Changed just to report the Presidents phone call.
Proof will be forth coming for all those that love the truth. :yep:
How can there be two (2) CIA's ... ?
One for you and one against you :yep:
The swamp has a spy in it ... That thinks like a chess master.
Who changed the requirement for whistle blowers to have first hand information is the guilty party. Changed just to report the Presidents phone call.
Proof will be forth coming for all those that love the truth. :yep:
"...for those who love the truth."?...
Then, obviously, the real truth lovers must really hate Trump:
All False statements involving Donald Trump --
https://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/statements/byruling/false/
...and that's just the tip of the Trumpberg...
How is it even remotely possible to love truth and defend Trump? The creep lies and then lies about his lying; to Trump, honesty is not a virtue, its a disease to be avoided at all costs. The Trumpetts had better get used to the idea Trump's reign will only last 4 years... or less...
There is a real reason none of the major US banks will do business with Trump, eve before he ran for office; it is the same reason none of the reputable major law firms will take up Trumps's defense: Trump has proven track record of running up unpaid balances on loans and bills and then refusing to pay for the contracted loans and services; sometimes he tries to avoid rightful payments by whelshing out via the bankruptcy laws; more often than not, he simply just does not honor his commitments; in point of fact, Trump's rapacious misuse of the office of the Presidency may be his last ditch attempt to salvage what is left of his erstwhile 'emipire'; it will be interesting to see what will happen to Trump and his mini0ons when the protective cloak of the Presidency is removed and he no longer can hide behind his office's protections...
It's kind of like the paradox of the Christian Far-Right's continued support for Trump: how can they support someone who has, in truth, violated six of the Ten Commandments and appears to be in violation of at least three of the other four? Simple hypocrisy does not even begin to cover a description of how absurd the Evangelicals look when they embrace 'Saint Trump'. Morality, honesty, compassion, self-effacement, and all of the other aspired for basic traits of Christianity are nowhere to be found in Trump. By supporting Trump, aren't they really only lying to themselves and violating the central contract between God and man? ...
You love the truth? Well, the real truth is Trump is not in any sense a paragon and those who claim to love truth and continue to support Trump are only lying to themselves...
... and God...
<O>
Mr Quatro
09-30-19, 01:57 AM
"...for those who love the truth."?...
Then, obviously, the real truth lovers must really hate Trrump.
The creep lies and then lies about his lying; to Trump, honesty is not a virtue, its a disease to be avoided at all costs. The Trumpetts had better get used to the idea Trump's reign will only last 4 years... or less...
It's kind of like the paradox of the Christian Far-Right's continued support for Trump: how can they support someone who has, in truth, violated six of the Ten Commandments and appears to be in violation of at least three of the other four? Simple hypocrisy does not even begin to cover a description of how absurd the Evangelicals look when they embrace 'Saint Trump'. Morality, honesty, compassion, self-effacement, and all of the other aspired for basic traits of Christianity are nowhere to be found in Trump. By supporting Trump, aren't they really only lying to themselves and violating the central contract between God and man? ...
You love the truth? Well, the real truth is Trump is not in any sense a paragon and those who claim to love truth and continue to support Trump are only lying to themselves...
... and God...
<O>
Your hate/anger is showing ... You brought it up ... We of the Christian faith forgive even as we have been forgiven. The law doesn't save you, but only the blood Jesus shed on the cross at Ca!vary can save you. It's called faith in a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.
We are not lying to ourselves when we look at the options of a democrats house/senate/white house filled nation ... What they promise and promote would drive us to be against the radical left.
The truth is what you get when you forgive and love ... When you get angry you lose your power this is a universal truth.
You (vienna) can't see the truth due to your hate/angry rhetoric/ but make a great case study in a person that can only see one side. :yep:
Trumps an old ball.
There are many cases where rambles off complete and utter nonsense, and is clearly being disingenuous and purposefully vague when having to talk about something he has no clue about. And of course he Lies, but can anyone name me one World leader that doesn't? When we have so much media that also lies and frames things out of context to suit a narrative, it can be quite hard to identify.
And then There are some issues where he speaks very openly (and bluntly) compared to the typical politician word salad of your Bushes, Clintons and Obamas etc. And its that part of Trump that resonates.
Many people are tired of Politicians who talk for for 10 minutes and seemingly say nothing they can relate to.
I personally find neither level of Admiration or hatred towards trump is really warranted. He is not very' likable' no, but what counts are his policies.
And even without the Leash of the house Democrats, IMO he is not so spectacularly different to past presidents in that area.
But anyway brash actors like Trump and Democrats like AOC are just products of something much bigger, The culture war. Most of the Western hemisphere is undergoing an identity crisis, that is where real problem lies.
Your hate/anger is showing ... You brought it up ... We of the Christian faith forgive even as we have been forgiven. The law doesn't save you, but only the blood Jesus shed on the cross at Ca!vary can save you. It's called faith in a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.
We are not lying to ourselves when we look at the options of a democrats house/senate/white house filled nation ... What they promise and promote would drive us to be against the radical left.
The truth is what you get when you forgive and love ... When you get angry you lose your power this is a universal truth.
You (vienna) can't see the truth due to your hate/angry rhetoric/ but make a great case study in a person that can only see one side. :yep:
What unmitigated Bandini...
I've said it before: I don't hate Trump and really couldn't give a monkey's about him. I knew very, very little about him before he ran for office other than he was the male version of a Kardashian sister: someone of rather limited talent and pretty much famous for just being famous (and that he, like Kim, has a behind big enough to have its own gravitational field). It wasn't until he formally ran for the WH that I actually did any background research on him and the results were not pretty. Virtually all the failngs, shortcomings, flaws, mercenarism, and mendacity had been very well documented, with a substantial amount of the documentation having been published years before Trump began to run, so the claims by some minions and Trumpettes that such reportage is relatively new and intended to oust Trump is, in itself, false; the facts were always out there, its just very few of the Trumpettes had taken the time and effort for due diligence before voting for the swine. Once Trump is gone, I, like a great many others will say "Good riddance" and forget about him and we'l go onw with our lives; basically, didn't care about him before he ran and won't care about him after he's gone; the justice system and the courts will deal with him and I won't care...
I'm also not angry or filled with hate, as you, without even ever having met me or with extremely little knowledge of me, wish to label me. I long, long ago learned that hate and anger really don't accomplish much and there are better ways to use one's limited time on this earth. I don't hold grudges nor do I try to seek revenge; I've witnessed all too often that those who wrong someone most often are themselves upended by their own action, kharma, if you will. It takes two to have a fight, and, if you're not there, there is no fight. This is not to say I am passive or a pacifist; as John Lennon once said "I love peace, but I'm not a pacifist". If someone tries to get unreasonably in my face, I will respond as I see fit, but once the situation is resolved, I forget about it and go on with my life. Things can happen in one's life that give one a perspective of when to act and when to just say "Screw it. Life's too short"...
You say Christian Trump supporters are not lying to themselves, that its just a matter of this or that that party. But the fact is they are lying, not only to themselves, but to the deity they espouse. The Holy Law is "Thou shalt not bear false witness" which covers a lot of ground, but is at its core, not to lie; and its not conditional: there is, by God's own words, no if, ands, or buts. Let's face it: Trump lies at the drop of a hat (or even if doesn't drop) and a goodly number of those lies are totally unnecessary and/or gratuitous. It takes a particular level of hypocrisy and duplicity to proselytize a particular set of morality and then contradict it by condoning, defending, and excusing actions which egregiously fly in the face of the espoused morality set. I don't think God is going to be impressed when the judgement comes for those evangelicals and they try to explain "Well Lord, you see (heh, heh), I had to vote for him and let him keep lying because of worldly politics(heh, heh...gulp!) and I know you were explicit it your Commandments, but I was sure you'd make an exception and..., um, why are you pointing you finger downwards?..."...
As far as forgiveness is concerned, that is fine; forgive and forget is what I try to do; but forgiveness only goes so far: if the person being forgiven shows no sign of remorse on contrition and continues to offend, then forgiveness has its limits. There that old saw: Fool me once, shame on you; foll me twice, shame on me. There comes a time when one has to stand up for their core values and say the flagrant flaunting must end. Far Right Evangelicals have been repeatedly fooled by Trump and his minions and ill-used in order to keep his amoral administration in place. But, I think, the end of the tether is nearing and the voters are seeing how abysmal and degenerate and how counter to the laws of the country and the core morality of the nation the Trump administration has become and are ready to say "We won't be fooled again"...
Remember, Trump never won the popular vote and didn't even get a plurality, with Clinton getting 2% more of the total popular vote than Trump and about 2,868,000 more popular votes than Trump (and Clinton was aver weak candidate). Trump has no real mandate from the American people. Trump actually got his Electoral College win with a margin of fewer than 80,00 popular votes, or 0.00056% of the total popular vote. In the three swing state Trump won, his margin of victory was lees than1% in each of those states, Michigan .02%, Pennsylvania .07%, and Wisconsin .08%; hardly a rousing success. And the biggest point to consider about 2020 is this: since 2017, when Trump took office, his ratings have really increased and has actually shown signs of falling to record lows, so he has no incumbent's poll rise to run on; and, those very same states he won by a whisper are among the states being most affected by Trump's policies of tariffs; in particular, Michigan farmers can't be too pleased with crop sales lost due to tariffs, and Virginia, to whom Trump promised and swore he would revive their coal minig industry, has seen the bankruptcies of four (4) more Virginian coal mining operation since Trump took office; that 0.00056% 'cushion' of 2016 looks to get even smaller...
No hate, no anger but I will call a fraud a fraud, a liar, a liar, a cheat, a cheat, etc. Trump is all that and much, much more. As an Independent, I calls them as I sees them and I don't equivocate or rationalize or compromise my own moral and/or ethical standards to accommodate petty political interests...
<O>
Jimbuna
09-30-19, 05:16 AM
Lawyers acting for the whistleblower at the centre of the impeachment inquiry into Donald Trump’s attempts to solicit foreign help for his re-election campaign have warned that their client’s personal safety is in danger partly as a result of the president’s remarks.
Andrew Bakaj, the lead attorney for the unnamed intelligence official who sounded the alarm on Trump’s activities relating to Ukraine, expressed fears on Sunday that the whistleblower could be put “in harm’s way” were his or her identity made public. In a letter to the acting Director of National Intelligence, Joseph Maguire, Bakaj points directly at Trump’s aggressive statements that he said prompted “concerns for our client’s safety”.
The letter, first reported by 60 Minutes on CBS News, quotes Trump’s comments on Thursday to staff at the US mission to the UN in New York. In his remarks, made behind closed doors but reported by the New York Times, the US president made a thinly-veiled threat that showed disdain for the institutional protections afforded to whistleblowers under federal law.
“I want to know who’s the person who gave the whistle-blower the information because that’s close to a spy,” Trump said. “You know what we used to do in the old days when we were smart? Right? With spies and treason, right? We used to handle them a little differently than we do now.”
Bakaj said that the indirect nature of Trump’s comment in referring to the person who fed the whistleblower the information “does nothing to assuage our concerns for our client’s safety”. The lawyer added that individuals were also offering $50,000 rewards for information that would out the intelligence official.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/donald-trump-has-put-whistleblower-in-danger-lawyers-say/ar-AAI2V3W?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignout
Looks to me like the politics in the UK and the US are currently on a par with each other.
u crank
09-30-19, 06:10 AM
Let's face it, Christians and other people of faith had a stark choice in 2016. And the choice was between Trump and this person who spoke at a human rights awards ceremony on Sept 27 at Georgetown University.
In her own words.
“He has turned American diplomacy into a cheap extortion racket. He has denigrated – and, let’s be honest, stabbed in the back – the career foreign service officers who serve bravely and selflessly no matter the politics of the administration that they are working under,”
Says a person who ran a lucrative pay for play scam while in the employ of the US government.
Now we know that in the course of his duties as president, he’s endangered us all by putting his personal and political interests ahead of the interests of the Ameican people,”
Says a person who used an unsecure email server while conducting diplomacy as the Secratary of State of the USA.
We knew that he and his campaign invited foreign adversaries to tamper with our elections.
Says a person who hired British and Russian agents to gather dirt on her political opponent.
So obviously voters are left with little choice but to vote for a less than honest politician. So what to do? The answer is pretty clear. Vote for a person who promises to do things that the voter wants. Clinton was going to continue Obama's policies and Trump was going to undue them. It was a pretty clear choice.
And then there is this to think about. Had Hillary Clinton won in 2016 all of the corrupt, lying, and shaddy characters that we have seen exposed would still be in power today. Comey, Brennan, Clapper, McCabe, Strzok etc would be there doing what they do so well.
There is a trend within progressive circles to shame Trump voters. Using the 'Christianity ploy' is a prime example. What are we to suggest, that Christians and other Religious people only vote for honest politicians. They would obviously never get to vote. And if they do vote it isn't a choice between the least honest candidate. I don't think anyone is fooled. Clearly it's a choice between the policies of the candidates.
Bilge_Rat
09-30-19, 08:55 AM
so since this whole new mess started, you keep hearing from the MSM that the UKR prosecutor Shokin was fired because he was corrupt and not because he was investigating Burisma, which according to the MSM is a "baseless conspiracy theory".
Well someone just uploaded a affidavit given by former Ukrainian General Prosecutor Victor Shokin where he states expressly that:
1. He was fired because he was leading a "wide-ranging corruption probe into Burisma Holdings ...and Joe Biden's son, Hunter Biden" (par. 8);
2. He was fired because he was refusing to stop the investigation : "On several occasions president Poroshenko asked me to have a look at the criminal case against Burisma and consider the possibility of winding up the investigative actions in respect of the company, but I refused the close the investigation. Therefore, I was forced to leave office, under direct and intense pressure from Joe Biden and the US administration. In my conversations with Poroshenko at the time, he was emphatic that I cease my investigations into Burisma. When I did not, he said that the US (via Biden) were refusing to release the USD$ 1 billion promised to Ukraine. He said that he had no choice, therefore, but to ask me to resign." (par. 9).
link to the affidavit:
https://fr.scribd.com/document/427618359/Shokin-Statement
so the anonymous "whistleblower" complaint based on second-hand hearsay is treated like gospel, but the affidavit from the actual prosecutor is totally ignored. Do we need any more proof that the MSM is totally in the bag for the Dems?
Bilge_Rat
09-30-19, 09:52 AM
How to weaponise polls.
As we all know, even if the House impeaches Trump, he cannot be removed unless 2/3 of Senators vote to convict which would require at least 20 GOP senators.
Part of convincing the GOP to abandon Trump is showing that voters support impeachment. You have had a lot of stories over the past weeks about polls that show a jump in support for impeachment, usually without a link to said poll so you cannot make your own assessment, for example news story on the NPR/PBS/Marist poll:
Early Polling Suggests Opinion May Be Shifting Toward Favoring Trump Impeachment
The latest NPR/PBS NewsHour/Marist poll found 49 percent approve of impeachment, compared to 46 percent who disapprove. Although still just shy of 50 percent, the poll shows a 10-point surge in favor of impeachment compared to the same survey in April
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/09/early-polling-opinion-shifting-trump-impeachment.html
However, when you actually dig down into the poll results, you see nothing has actually changed and GOP support for Trump is still rock solid:
http://maristpoll.marist.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/NPR_PBS-NewsHour_Marist-Poll_USA-NOS-and-Tables_1909261000.pdf#page=3
-90% of Republicans still approve of the job Trump is doing;
-93% of Republicans disapprove of the House starting an impeachment inquiry;
-85% of Republicans think the House impeachment inquiry is just politics;
-69% of Republicans think it is not a serious matter, just politics that "...Trump asked the President of Ukraine to investigate a potential political opponent, Joe Biden.."(btw, notice that it is a leading question);
-85% of Republicans think it is not worth it for the House to impeach Trump if Senate Republicans will not vote to convict.
It is basically the overwhelming support of Dem voters for impeachment which is bumping up the poll support, but none of them will vote for Trump anyway.
With numbers like these, it is wishful thinking to think the GOP Senators will vote to remove Trump.
Canonicus
09-30-19, 11:57 AM
Just remember that Repubs (or should they change the name to "Trumpists" to reflect their ultimate respect and allegiance to the new found Fuhrer)...
Are a small and shrinking part of the American electorate mostly made up of disaffected white males (white supremisists?) who like to sit on their fat asses and play Admiral.
BTW.. I don't hate anyone, not even trump, even thought I think he's a yellow haired,orange skinned wannabe dictator who cheats on his wife,income taxes,
likes to lock little babies in cages and is probably the Anti-Christ and has fooled a lot of other fools and BTW has contributed to Hillary Clinton's passed campaigns eight times.
Whether or not this impeachment stuff goes any where, remains to be seen. But it has been worth the price of admission and extra popcorn to watch Trump on Twitter! He thrashing around like a beached whale, and looking more pathetic with each tweet! Tweet away Trump, tweet away, love the entertainment!!:haha::haha:
u crank
09-30-19, 02:44 PM
Just remember that Repubs (or should they change the name to "Trumpists" to reflect their ultimate respect and allegiance to the new found Fuhrer)...
Are a small and shrinking part of the American electorate mostly made up of disaffected white males (white supremisists?) who like to sit on their fat asses and play Admiral.
BTW.. I don't hate anyone, not even trump, even thought I think he's a yellow haired,orange skinned wannabe dictator who cheats on his wife,income taxes,
likes to lock little babies in cages and is probably the Anti-Christ and has fooled a lot of other fools and BTW has contributed to Hillary Clinton's passed campaigns eight times.
Whether or not this impeachment stuff goes any where, remains to be seen. But it has been worth the price of admission and extra popcorn to watch Trump on Twitter! He thrashing around like a beached whale, and looking more pathetic with each tweet! Tweet away Trump, tweet away, love the entertainment!!:haha::haha:
I'm gonna guess that you guys are Democrats.
No I'm not psychic.
:D
I'm just curious as to whether you had a preferred candidate in the Dem primary. And if so why. Anybody else can weigh in also.
I'm just curious as to whether you had a preferred candidate in the Dem primary. And if so why. Anybody else can weigh in also.I would have voted for Goofy, but he wasn't on the ticket :D
Hey, ...wait...
...didn't he get the EC win in 2016?...
<O>
(An off topic comment)
I do not claim to be an expert in this field of religion, even though it's one of my biggest interest among others in the section history.
I have through my interest in History of Religion been studying this anti Christ
and from what I remember from all my readings, watching documentaries I can say following
Trump ain't the Anti Christ. Very far from
Markus
(End of an off topic comment)
Something tells me Trump isn't too happy about his choice of personal lawyer right about now:
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/09/30/politics/giuliani-hpsci-subpoena-letter-/index.html
Key House Democrats announced on Monday that they are issuing a subpoena to President Donald Trump's personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani for documents related to Ukraine as part of the House impeachment inquiry.
For example, on September 19, 2019, you admitted on national television that you
personally asked the government of Ukraine to target Vice President Biden. During an interview
on CNN, Chris Cuomo asked you, "So, you did ask Ukraine to look into Joe Biden?" You
responded, "Of course I did." In addition to this stark admission, you stated more recently that
you are in possession of evidence--in the form of text messages, phone records, and other
communications--indicating that you were not acting alone and that other Trump Administration
officials may have been involved in this scheme. The subpoena requires you to produce all of
those communications, and other related documents, to the Committees in order to determine the
full extent of this effort by the President and his Administration to press Ukraine to interfere in
our 2020 presidential election.
:haha::haha:
em2nought
10-01-19, 07:56 AM
These MF's better not tank the economy and ruin my exit strategy. I just need until 2024, I'm too old to take up arms. LOL :D
Intel community watchdog appears to push back on Trump allegations of changes to whistleblower rules --
https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/463737-intel-community-watchdog-clarifies-processing-of-whistleblower
Link to ICIG actual Press Release:
https://www.dni.gov/files/ICIG/Documents/News/ICIG%20News/2019/September%2030%20-%20Statement%20on%20Processing%20of%20Whistleblowe r%20Complaints/ICIG%20Statement%20on%20Processing%20of%20Whistleb lower%20Complaints.pdf
<O>
Skybird
10-01-19, 03:17 PM
The one big concern of mine is whether or not sufficient key posts in the scheme of checks and balances still are manned with objective people trying to stay loyal to law and order and the constitutional demands. My fear is that this conflict already is so bad that it comes down to who has his "own guys" in sufficiently powerful positions as to bypass checks and balances and simply counter moves by the other side by "brute force". Pompeos annoucnements today imo are nothign else than threatening that he will not obey legal demands by the law. So far that is an attempt of intimidation. If he manages to carry it out, if his threats fall on fertile ground, than it is a coup, and the law has been taken out.
That the American system, the way it was meant and intended, functions at least sufficiently anymore, I do no longer take for granted. I mean it has not functioned unmanipulated and without corruption of power and lobbyism since decades, but there was still room for detoriating it even further - and Trump has used his three years to maximise the damage. He is the political equivalent to a bunker-busting bomb. Its possible that he will be the one cause that completely knocks the system out.
In other words: a coup d'etat that is taking place behind the stage's curtain. The public will no resist to a coup if it is not aware of a coup having taken place.
Well anyways it's nice to note that the Democrats are admitting that their entire case is based on hearsay from a political partisan. They must be slipping. Heck with Mueller they at least had that Steele Report disinformation piece that the Russians whipped up for them.
Poor Biden. He comes up a looser no matter how it goes. It's so sad to see all this controversy hurting the old guy when any Democrat will tell you that he is as pure as the driven snow.
I mean no way could there possibly be anything wrong with his son landing a $50k per month gig in a field that he had no experience or training for, in a country whose language he did not speak. And just because that Ukrainian prosecutor happened to be investigating his son that couldn't possibly have anything at all to do with Bidens threat to withhold aid money if the prosecutor was not removed and the investigation halted.
u crank
10-01-19, 04:33 PM
Intel community watchdog appears to push back on Trump allegations of changes to whistleblower rules --
https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/463737-intel-community-watchdog-clarifies-processing-of-whistleblower
Another viewpoint.
https://thefederalist.com/2019/09/30/did-the-inspector-generals-office-help-the-whistleblower-try-to-frame-trump/
I wonder, if this attempt to impeach Trump fail
Will it return as a boomerang and hit them smack in the face ?
It was the memory of what our Journalist in USA said some days ago.
The American voters could very well get sick and tired of this
Markus
While US soybean farmers are losing sales and losing long worked for trade relationships, while US medium and small manufacturing businesses are faced with economic ruin due to increased costs for raw materials, while US workers are facing layoffs (with some layoffs already having happened), while all this is going on to the detriment of the US economy, at least the spawn of the Great Orange Screw-up are reaping benefits:
China grants Ivanka Trump five new trademarks amid trade-war talks, troubling ethics watchdog --
https://www.scmp.com/news/world/united-states-canada/article/2183073/china-grants-ivanka-trump-five-new-trademarks-amid
... and this is not new; from 2018:
Ivanka Trump gets initial approval from China for 16 new trademarks — including for 'voting machines' --
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/06/ivanka-trump-gets-initial-approval-from-china-for-16-trademarks.html
...and let's not forget this classic:
Trump vows to help China save Chinese jobs. Really. --
https://www.vox.com/world/2018/5/14/17352088/trump-zte-china-trade-war
... which came days after a certain spawn got certain concessions:
Ivanka Trump won China trademarks days before her father's reversal on ZTE --
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/28/ivanka-trump-won-china-trademarks-donald-trump-zte-reversal
...and, hey, not to be left out, it seems the Clueless Leader got a little sumpin', sumpin' too in the deal:
Trump helps sanctioned Chinese phone maker after China delivers a big loan to a Trump project --
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/5/15/17355202/trump-zte-indonesia-lido-city
Since the Far Right is so keen about searching out government corruption everywhere, can we presume the GOP-controlled Senate committees will be giving the above the same urgent attention they demand on 'other matters'?
Illegal? How about un-Constitutional....
... ya know, that little nagging thing called the Emoluments clause...
[QUOTE=August;2630210]Well anyways it's nice to note that the Democrats are admitting that their entire case is based on hearsay from a political partisan.
...
/QUOTE]
Got a cite for that claim of a DEM 'admission'...?...
<O>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_42Kx36kDw
<O>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKafw3LxQ8E
Buddahaid
10-01-19, 08:22 PM
This isn't about Hillary and is another deflection from the impeachment inquiry.
It's not about Hillary, or Obama, it's about Trump. Why aren't they discussing Trump instead of harping on Hillary? Poor argument since Hillary isn't a sitting president soliciting a foreign government for help in exchange for favors.
It's a bad argument if you have to refer to Hillary.
Skybird
10-01-19, 09:11 PM
It's a bad argument if you have to refer to Hillary.
To be precise: its no argument valid for the object of the current debate at all. Hillary is not responsible for the deeds of the Donald.
To be precise: its no argument valid for the object of the current debate at all. Hillary is not responsible for the deeds of the Donald.
No we are all responsible for our own deeds. Hillary and Obama have so far managed to escape responsibility for theirs. But rest assured that Trump is going to do what he can to see that they and the swamp creatures that tried to tip the 2016 are held to account for it.
Hey Breaking News!
The Whistleblower has been unmasked! He is REO Speedwagon singer Kevin Cronin. Seems that he heard it from a friend who, heard it from a friend who, heard it from another that Trump had been messing around! :salute:
But rest assured that Trump is going to do what he can to see that they and the swamp creatures that tried to tip the 2016 are held to account for it.Of course he will, August. Of course he will.
Of course he will, August. Of course he will.
:agree: :haha:
:) Both of you guys have breathlessly claimed Trumps imminent political demise on this board for three years now and you ain't never been right. This won't be any different.
That is true, August. As long he has so many supporters, who unconditionally support him regardless of his actions. Who never say the slightest criticism regardless of his actions - as long he is bashing the "right" (or shall I better say left).
That it is a special form of understanding how democracy works, I have to say.
It is one thing to oppose an impeachment politically but it is another to accept the wording and actions of Trump in this circumstance - especially toward this whistle blower - who has acted in accordance with the law and his conscience. And this is not first or the third time Trump reacted on such fundamental pillars of how a democracy is crafted.
After the presidency of Trump, you country will be divided more than ever. It will be more vulnerable by foreign powers for the same reason. And - maybe then the left also has or got "radicalized" enough to present an "left-Trump" candidate - who get elected . And I do not say this with malicious joy. I was and I am still an Atlanticist.
Skybird
10-03-19, 09:23 AM
No we are all responsible for our own deeds. Hillary and Obama have so far managed to escape responsibility for theirs. But rest assured that Trump is going to do what he can to see that they and the swamp creatures that tried to tip the 2016 are held to account for it.
No, an accusation of Trump has nothing to do with Hillary's deeds. Hillary is not responsible for Trump's deeds. Referring to her in a discussion about Trump's misdeeds, is no argument, but an attempt to bypass and distract from the point of a debate on Trump's doings.
You could as well relativise Trump'S misdeeds by referring to John Smith in Charlton City having robbed a store at night and escaped.
Biden, Hillary , who ever, charge them separately if you want. But do not use them to relativise Trump's deeds. For Trump's policy and decision making, Trump is responsible. He is at the top of the heap. The No.1. The formal president, with far reaching authorities that give him more powers than most European state leaders can claim in their constitutional context.
u crank
10-03-19, 09:59 AM
As long he has so many supporters, who unconditionally support him regardless of his actions. Who never say the slightest criticism regardless of his actions -
What you say is true but would you say that people on the left side of the divide are any different? Do they hold some claim to the moral high ground? Would they back and vote for a candidate regardless of that person's history of corruption? I think we have seen the answer to that question.
My own opinion on this whole impeachment attempt is simple. There are people who do not want the 'deplorables' to have any say in who gets to be president. These people believe that the 'deplorables' aren't enlighten enough to make that decision. They made a mistake once and if given a chance will make that same mistake again. So the chance to make that mistake has to be taken away. That is what it is all about.
The thing is two things can be wrong at the same time. Trump's phone call to the Ukrainian President was highly inappropriate and foolish but almost certainly not an impeachable offence. Former VP Joe Biden and his son's dealings in the Ukraine probably were not illegal but they certainly have the unmistakable stink of corruption.
The end result though is that unless some unknown facts surface that would change the minds of twenty or so GOP Senators Trump will not be removed from office. On the other hand I would say that Joe Biden's political career is over.
Yes of course Trump will fight or deny his guilt in this and other cases who have been or will be presented for him(have a feeling this want be the last).
So have former President done and so will future President do-deny or fight it.
Markus
AVGWarhawk
10-03-19, 12:27 PM
Just another fine mess perpetrated by a president. Much like the past presidents. :hmmm: What fun! :doh:
Skybird
10-03-19, 02:04 PM
Distraction and deflection continues. Trump now demands China and other nations to probe Bidens.
Effrontery and shamlessness as desperate self-defence. "Ist der Ruf erst ruiniert, lebt sich's gänzlich ungeniert." (German proverb. = "Once all reputation is in ruins, living is completely uninhibited.")
That such a skunk can make it to the top of state and even gets applauded by fans for behaving like a sack of garbage, tells everything one needs to know about the state of politics. Totally and completely degenerated.
In comparison, that he also lacks any style, class, education, manners and charms, is just the cream on the top.
What's next? Making a heap of dung the next leader?
Think I better do not ask for a US tourist visa anymore. I might be in the database now at the latest.
u crank
10-03-19, 02:43 PM
Distraction and deflection continues. Trump now demands China and other nations to probe Bidens.
Effrontery and shamlessness as desperate self-defence.
Let's ask a simple question. Do you want to know? Does anyone want to know? This man was the Vice President of the USA for eight years. What he did then and what he does now is not some insignificant thing. If he didn't do anything wrong wouldn't you like to know? If he did do something wrong and is running for the Democrat party's nomination for President wouldn't you like to know?
It amazes me that there is such a lack of curiosity amongst people who want every possible angle of their political opponents investigated but cry like children when the tables are turned. What have they got to hide?
Catfish
10-03-19, 03:17 PM
^ well he can be tried, but not by foreign accusations, and surely not with the help of foreign politicians.
This is not about left or right. It is about a certain personality and attitude, if described politely. Trump is trying to divert and refocus his whistleblower scandal on Joe Biden. What do you really think of a man like Trump?
@Skybird Regarding visiting the US you should have thought about some eavesdropping agency already ten years ago :03:
You are aware that when Trump really goes down he will be a martyr, and it might even become a civil war with some trigger happy militia?
It may be better to let him do more political damage, than that.
Skybird
10-03-19, 03:50 PM
@Skybird Regarding visiting the US you should have thought about some eavesdropping agency already ten years ago :03:
Yeah I know, and I did. Which means I probably never seriously considered a US trip anyway. At least the US would just reject entry/visum to me - if at all, that is. They would not jail me away.
Now, if I would ever go back to Turkey or Iran again - now that might mean really deep trouble for me. But honestly said, I do not plan to ever meet those corners of the world again in the rest of my life.
Skybird
10-03-19, 04:08 PM
Let's ask a simple question. Do you want to know? Does anyone want to know? This man was the Vice President of the USA for eight years. What he did then and what he does now is not some insignificant thing. If he didn't do anything wrong wouldn't you like to know? If he did do something wrong and is running for the Democrat party's nomination for President wouldn't you like to know?
One person's wrong is not somebody else's card blanche to do wrong himself. If you ASmeicnas think you should charge Hillary or Biden, do so - but it is not the president'S joib to tell the justice department how to do its job, nor is it the president'S job to tell other heads of state that they should deliver him the mud he wants to throw it at his most likely rival in the next campaign. Trump already has invited most likely Russian interference in last elections, now he asks Ukraine and China to interfere with the upcoming elections.
This all is about Trump. And about Trump alone. And many defdend him still only for one reason: if they would not, and Trump falls, they would need to admit that they were terribly wrong themsleves, too, and allowed shabbiness hijacking the WH and that they were the ones who paved him the way there. "Mitgefangen, mitgehangen. " Voters are to be held accountable for what and whom they voted for. They share the responsibility for the consequences of their vote.
It amazes me that there is such a lack of curiosity amongst people who want every possible angle of their political opponents investigated but cry like children when the tables are turned. What have they got to hide?Well, you tell me, you help to deflect any probing of Trump. Treumps deeds are beign done NOW, they are not a thing of ther past, and the damsage they mean can still be prevented. You distraxct by wantign atgention shifting to misdeeds of ther past by soembody else instead. Somebody else who also was not the head of state. Its a quesiton of present priorities. Before I probe a theft in the past, I deal with the bank robbery taking place right now, in the present - and is done by the absolute top leader of the country.
You are distracting an deflecting. And you know it yourself, do you. Its all due to the xtreme camp warfare your poltical lanb dscape has been turned into, and the extreme polarization resulting from it. Its your totem against their totem, its your tribe against their tribe.
Its political hooliganism. And the louder the Bangs, the louder the Cheers.
u crank
10-03-19, 04:36 PM
This is not about left or right. It is about a certain personality and attitude, if described politely. Trump is trying to divert and refocus his whistleblower scandal on Joe Biden.
That's what you say it is about. I say it is about the rule of law. If Trump, Biden or any American breaks the law he should be held accountable. Now it is quite possible that the Bidens did not break the law. Polititians can be corrupt without breaking the law. There is no legal penalty to pay but there certainly should be a political one. If Joe Biden was involved in shady, corrupt dealings that benifitted his son financially do you think he is fit to be the President? Should we just let it go? The person who is ultimately responsible for finding that out is the President.
What do you really think of a man like Trump?
I have stated in this thread in the past that I am not a big fan of Trump. But given the alternative in 2016 I'm not that disappointed that he won. And if it is a contest in 2020 between Trump and Warren I hope he wins again. Trump's personal behavior is lacking but his policies for the most part are standard Republican positions. Bill Clinton had a fairly successful Presidency but he also had oral sex with a much younger woman in the White House who wasn't his wife. And he lied about it. I'm a live and let live kinda guy. I prefer to judge polititians by their policies and accomplishments, not by their behavior. Polititians should be held legally accountable for their behavior if they break the law. They should be held politically responsible for their policies. Everything else is just an excuse for bias.
No, an accusation of Trump has nothing to do with Hillary's deeds. Hillary is not responsible for Trump's deeds. Referring to her in a discussion about Trump's misdeeds, is no argument, but an attempt to bypass and distract from the point of a debate on Trump's doings.
You could as well relativise Trump'S misdeeds by referring to John Smith in Charlton City having robbed a store at night and escaped.
Biden, Hillary , who ever, charge them separately if you want. But do not use them to relativise Trump's deeds. For Trump's policy and decision making, Trump is responsible. He is at the top of the heap. The No.1. The formal president, with far reaching authorities that give him more powers than most European state leaders can claim in their constitutional context.
You can believe in Democrat fairy tales if you want to but nothing Trump has actually done is either illegal or wrong and unlike those two he has every right to be angry at the Democrats constant attempts to overturn the 2016. This Ukraine thing is just the latest attack and it will fail along with the others.
Buddahaid
10-03-19, 05:22 PM
So that's why he's hiding it.
u crank
10-03-19, 05:35 PM
One person's wrong is not somebody else's card blanche to do wrong himself. If you ASmeicnas think you should charge Hillary or Biden, do so - but it is not the president'S joib to tell the justice department how to do its job, nor is it the president'S job to tell other heads of state that they should deliver him the mud he wants to throw it at his most likely rival in the next campaign. Trump already has invited most likely Russian interference in last elections, now he asks Ukraine and China to interfere with the upcoming elections.
You didn't answer the question. I'll ask it again. Do you want to know? Something tells me you don't want to know. This man Biden could be the next President. Why wouldn't you want to know?
Trump is being pretty out front about this. He is asking these questions publicly. He could just follow the example of his predecessor and get his intel agencies to start a counterintelligence probe into Biden. Would that make you happy?
Canonicus
10-03-19, 06:11 PM
So that's why he's hiding it.
Like his income tax returns which he promised to disclose back during the 2016 campaign?
Skybird
10-03-19, 06:27 PM
You can believe in Democrat fairy tales if you want to but nothing Trump has actually done is either illegal or wrong
Says - you.
Says - you.
Indeed. Prove me wrong.
Skybird
10-03-19, 07:48 PM
Indeed. Prove me wrong.
I prove you nothing. You are no valid criterion.
Trump is to be probed. He is not to hinder it. He is not to influence it. His subordinates are not to hinder justice and the work of the constitutional institutions and procedures. Neither they nor him are to hide demanded documents and records. Neither they nor him are to obstruct justice. Obstruction of justice is a punishable crime -. even for a formal president.
If then said justice - left to be neutral and objective - finds the charges against him to be fraudulent and/or wrong, then his innocence is proven and you have a claim to make for his behaviour not being illegal or wrong. And only then. Until then you only spread doubt and conspiration theory and delay and distraction and deflection and illusion, while ignoring his sh!tty manners and excremental unspeakable behaviour all day long as if it were somebody else's words, manners and behaviours, not his.
Trump hinders justice. He tries to intimidate and bully witnesses. He wants laws and procedures being bend in his favour. Muller was clear on why he did not charge him. Innocence of the probed subject named Trump was not the reason, he left no doubt on that. And showed by that a quality and class that Trump could not even dream to have, even if the fairy queen would teach him to suddenly appreciate such qualities he never has heard of so far. A psychopathic bigmouth with a deep-rooting paranoia and messianic, megalomaniac selfunderstanding and zero empathy for other living beings, with no sense for self-responsibility, honour, or fairness. Rude in words, vulgar in behaviour, rightous in extremis , and at the same time when being so: revealing how sadly limited he is. A carricature of a human, a laugh of a man, dangerous, unscrupolous, rabid - but ridiculous. A sad being. A joke.
One day he will be unmasked, either by lawyers or by historians. And then fools like you will share his shame. German language knows a word for this kind of blind, uncritical, undistanced, reality-ignoring loyalty, even if being malicously led into the abyss of destruction. We call it Kadavergehorsam. It is the direct opposite to noble, well-deserved loyalty, and no compliment at all.
For now, you will laugh, I know. But you will not be the last one laughing best.
I prove you nothing. You are no valid criterion.
Trump is to be probed. He is not to hinder it. He is not to influence it. His subordinates are not to hinder justice and the work of the constitutional institutions and procedures. Neither they nor him are to hide demanded documents and records. Neither they nor him are to obstruct justice. Obstruction of justice is a punishable crime -. even for a formal president.
If then said justice - left to be neutral and objective - finds the charges against him to be fraudulent and/or wrong, then his innocence is proven and you have a claim to make for his behaviour not being illegal or wrong. And only then. Until then you only spread doubt and conspiration theory and delay and distraction and deflection and illusion, while ignoring his sh!tty manners and excremental unspeakable behaviour all day long as if it were somebody else's words, manners and behaviours, not his.
Trump hinders justice. He tries to intimidate and bully witnesses. He wants laws and procedures being bend in his favour. Muller was clear on why he did not charge him. Innocence of the probed subject named Trump was not the reason, he left no doubt on that. And showed by that a quality and class that Trump could not even dream to have, even if the fairy queen would teach him to suddenly appreciate such qualities he never has heard of so far. A psychopathic bigmouth with a deep-rooting paranoia and messianic, megalomaniac selfunderstanding and zero empathy for other living beings, with no sense for self-responsibility, honour, or fairness. Rude in words, vulgar in behaviour, rightous in extremis , and at the same time when being so: revealing how sadly limited he is. A carricature of a human, a laugh of a man, dangerous, unscrupolous, rabid - but ridiculous. A sad being. A joke.
One day he will be unmasked, either by lawyers or by historians. And then fools like you will share his shame. German language knows a word for this kind of blind, uncritical, undistanced, reality-ignoring loyalty, even if being malicously led into the abyss of destruction. We call it Kadavergehorsam. It is the direct opposite to noble, well-deserved loyalty, and no compliment at all.
For now, you will laugh, I know. But you will not be the last one laughing best.
Four whole paragraphs and you couldn't mention one single real crime. You basically say "Trumps a big meanie" and fill in your own personal vitriol.
In other words you ain't got nothin'.
Buddahaid
10-03-19, 10:03 PM
And you do? You prove it then.
And you do? You prove it then.
Innocent until proven guilty.
It will take more than hearsay and innuendo to get a conviction.
Ukraine agency says allegations against Burisma cover period before Biden joined (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-whistleblower-ukraine-buris/ukraine-agency-says-allegations-against-burisma-cover-period-before-biden-joined-idUSKBN1WC1LV)
A Ukrainian investigation of gas company Burisma is focused solely on activity that took place before Hunter Biden, son of former U.S. Vice President Joe Biden, was hired to sit on its board, Ukraine’s anti-corruption investigation agency said.
[..]
“Changes to the board of Burisma Limited, which are currently the object of international attention, took place only in May 2014, and therefore are not and never were the subject of (the anti-corruption bureau’s) investigation,” the bureau’s statement said.No reason to probe Bidens: former Ukraine prosecutor (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49871909)
Speaking to BBC Kiev correspondent Jonah Fisher, Mr Lutsenko - who succeeded Mr Shokin and stood down last month - said there was no plan to open the investigation into Burisma, and that any investigation into Hunter Biden would have to start in the US.
"It is the jurisdiction of the US," he said, adding that any "possible embezzlement" at Burisma "happened two or three years before Hunter Biden became a member of the board".
Skybird
10-04-19, 05:11 AM
A formal president about whom Muller indicated he should undergo impeachment but that it were not his formal responsibility and authority to do so, but representatives' duty. A formal president who implies that whistkleblowers he does not like should be killed, and who actively tries to block personnel in critical offices that could pose a threat of demasking him. Who calls at least on two foreign states to interfere with upcomign natioanl elections in the US, doing it once even in puiblic. A formal president who talks rubbish and contradicts himself, who offends people as he pleases, and frnakly illustrates his paranoia and conpsiration theories at many opportunities.
But August says that he did nothing wrong.
Trump does wrong, all the time. Under everybody's eyes. You have no argument, August, what you have is called agitation. And denial of reality.
Impeachment will most likely falter in the senate, since Trump profiteers have the majority there, but no spine or honesty. This does not mean Trump did not wrong and is innocent. It only documents the limits of justice possible within the constitutional order, and shows that the crisis is a constitutional system crisis - Trump is not the cause for it, but just the latest symptom. But the symptom that in the present, right now, is doing all the damage.
The American political system is disenchanted now at the latest. actually it happened already earlier, else Trump would not have become possible.
Skybird
10-04-19, 06:30 AM
More no-wrong doing.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49930863
Skybird
10-04-19, 06:38 AM
More no-wrong doing.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49930863
Meanwhile the Ukrainian prosecutor has launched an inquiry into Busidma, claiming that it only affects the time period before Hunter Biden visit.
Random chance is such a fascinating thing when beign carefully arranged this opportunistically.
Selinskji is a naive dilettante. Desperate maybe, but naive. He will also pay a price towards the Europeans who find his servile love affair with Trump extremely bewildering. He is easy prey for Trump.
u crank
10-04-19, 06:56 AM
A formal president about whom Muller indicated he should undergo impeachment but that it were not his formal responsibility and authority to do so, but representatives' duty.
Indeed. If there was a moment when Democrats could have pulled the impeachment lever that was it. Why didn't they? Two reasons. One, you need an actual crime and Mueller's list of possible obstruction charges were too weak to fly. Two, Pelosi is playing a political game. She is protecting her majority in the house. She got that majority in 2018 in districts that voted for Trump in 2016. She is still doing that. Protecting your political legacy is more important than impeaching the president.
A formal president who implies that whistkleblowers he does not like should be killed,
That is quite an accusation. I think you should provide some evidence for it.
Who calls at least on two foreign states to interfere with upcomign natioanl elections in the US, doing it once even in puiblic.
https://www.state.gov/12978
The Treaty on Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters obligates Ukraine to provide, upon request by the U.S., assistance “in connection with the investigation, prosecution, and prevention of offenses, and in proceedings related to criminal matters.” This treaty was negotiated by then-president Bill Clinton more than 20 years ago and approved by the U.S. Senate. Among other things, Ukraine agreed to furnish “documents, records, the taking of testimony or statements of persons” relevant to any U.S. investigation.
there is significant evidence that Ukraine actively meddled in the 2016 election by providing dirt on the Trump campaign at the behest of a Democratic National Committee subcontractor who wanted to help elect Hillary Clinton.
If that is true, again I'll ask the question ..wouldn't you like to know?
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/gregg-jarrett-ukraine-is-just-the-latest-ploy-in-witch-hunt-to-drive-trump-from-white-house
Trump does wrong, all the time. Under everybody's eyes. You have no argument, August, what you have is called agitation. And denial of reality.
You keep saying that but why can't you give a specific example. In order for Trump to be impeached there is going to have to be an actual crime. Not vague accusations. Orange Man Bad is not a crime that can be prosecuted. The Democrat's impeachment inquiries are just a desperate attempt to find something, anything that they can move forward with. This whistleblower thing is not it. The wheels have come off it already.
I say get this thing going. Take a vote in the House and let's get to a trial in the Senate. Start calling witnesses and put them under oath. Start with Adam Schiff. If this guy puts his hand on a bible it would probably burst into flames.
Skybird
10-04-19, 07:20 AM
I have referred to several examples for his wrong doings now, wrng in moral, ehtical and stylish understanding as well as wroing in juristic, legal understanding. And some of you guys just ignore it while it sits right in front of you and is unhidden and laid out before right your eyes, and the only excuse is: Trum says he did not dio what he acutally did just a second beforek, and he did not say what he actually is recored with having said, and you guys hang on the lips of your messiah and blindly believe evertyhing and take it as the literal holy new gospel. And you hold up another ring and demand the other to jump through it.
You cannot even differenciate between right and wrong anymore, that fanatical you are in your blind loyalty to him. Reminds me of sectarianism.
I have no intention to waste my time endlessly here. Its not a reasonable discussion, but fanatism I deal with here. And that is why the trenches in Americna asociety are dso wide and why it sitll is polarizzing even more. Trumpo lives by speading hate and lies and rage and aggression, that is the emotional basis he founds his political existence on. Not on intellect or argument - but on emotions. The lowest of bad emotions. The intellect is being bypassed compeltely. Truth is he could even be impeached with overwhelming evidence - and you still would not believe it and call it conspiracy and malice and the bad media and the misinformation of others and..., and... and...
Oner can lead the horse to water, but one cannot make it drinking. You have bullied yourslef into a corner from which you can no longer escape without loosing your own face. Thats why you balk, growl and bite.
Your country will live through this until the bitter end. And then the real fun will begin. The evasion of responsibility game. The blame game. The guilt game. Enjoy.
Bilge_Rat
10-04-19, 07:39 AM
Skybird, the reason we ignore your posts and frankly I don't even bother reading them anymore is because they are just the same rabid trump-hating diatribes we have seen for 3 years now from the radical left.
Trump is not perfect, but honestly at this point the thought of the Democrats being in charge scares me a lot more than 4 more years of Trump.
u crank
10-04-19, 07:41 AM
More no-wrong doing.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49930863
From the article.
There has been no evidence of wrongdoing by Hunter Biden.
The author in no way explains this statement but presents it as fact. What do you call wrongdoing? Did Hunter Biden do something illegal. We don't know because it has not been investigated. But there are some facts which we know. VP joe Biden was President Obama's point man in the Ukraine. On 18 April 2014, Hunter Biden, the son of then-US vice president Joe Biden, was appointed to the board of Burisma Holdings and recieved a generous stipend for it. He remained in that position until April 2019. Burisma is a group of energy exploration and production companies. Hunter Biden has no known expertise in the petroleum industry. Probably nothing illegal on either Joe or Hunter Biden's part. But it sure looks like political corruption, doesn't it?
Also from the article.
But Republican Jim Jordan said the Mr Volker's testimony on Thursday had "undercut the salacious narrative that Representative Adam Schiff is using to sell his impeachment ambitions".
Mr Jordan heads the House Oversight Committee which tweeted that "this information [contained in the text messages] cannot possibly be understood without Volker's explanations from yesterday's testimony".
He has called for the entire transcript of the testimony to be released.
Again, what are these people hiding.
Skybird
10-04-19, 08:42 AM
https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tagesspiegel.de%2Fpolitik%2Fdu biose-ukraine-und-china-kontakte-im-us-wahlkampf-trumps-pervertierte-demokratie%2F25083794.html
u crank
10-04-19, 09:55 AM
Skybird, the reason we ignore your posts and frankly I don't even bother reading them anymore is because they are just the same rabid trump-hating diatribes we have seen for 3 years now from the radical left.
Yea I couldn't say it better. Hysteria Trumps logic.:D
Trump is not perfect, but honestly at this point the thought of the Democrats being in charge scares me a lot more than 4 more years of Trump.
What is painfully obvious to me is that this really has little to do with Trump. Sure he is a loud mouth braggart with bad Twitter habits but that's not the reason they want to get rid of him. This started before he took the oath of office. In fact it started before he won the election. Trump was very clear about the policies that he would pursue. He was very clear about undoing some of Obama's bad policies. He gave a clear signal about remaking the Judicuary. He was going to have a different approach to foreign policy. Almost everything that Trump was going to do, and he made no secret about it, was going to upset the status quo apple cart. That's what they don't like. He is not one of them. It scares the hell out of them.
When Democrats are in power they act like they will always be in power. There has never been a presidential candidate who assumed that she would be president like Hillary Clinton. A divine right of succession.
When Democrats are not in power they act like they will never be in power again. The hysteria and out right derangement in getting him removed is proof of that.
Buddahaid
10-04-19, 10:16 AM
Most of what you just posted works when you substitute Republican for Democrat. Maybe they're all whiners now.
u crank
10-04-19, 10:27 AM
Most of what you just posted works when you substitute Republican for Democrat. Maybe they're all whiners now.
Possibly, I don't deny it. But when was there a presidential candidate who lost an election and then behaved like Hillary Clinton? I am not aware of one.
I hope she tries for a do over.:O:
Rockstar
10-04-19, 11:07 AM
I think Algore is one which comes the closest.
on a side note. all the accusations and investigations against the current president may not prevent his re-election. But it may dissuade him from running again.
u crank
10-04-19, 12:25 PM
... But it may dissuade him from running again.
Indeed and that could set up a very strong GOP ticket in 2020. Mike Pence and Nikki Haley.
Bilge_Rat
10-04-19, 02:26 PM
so I just read Volker's opening statement.
According to CNN, it is the final nail in Trump's coffin, but when you actually read it you see that Volker is saying Trump and Giuliani did nothing wrong.
link is here not a very long read.
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6454132-Volker-Testimony-Long-Form.html#document/p1
Skybird
10-05-19, 03:12 PM
Frankfurter Rundschau interviewing Teri Kanefield. Her soberness regarding what it really is about, may be disillusionising for some, but I appreciate it, and agree. Like I expect she would agree with me when I said in the past that Trump is not the original cause of the problem, but the symptom (though feeding back on it).
https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fr.de%2Fpolitik%2Famtsenthebun g-donald-trump-agiert-ukraine-affaere-wie-mafiaboss-13068085.html
On Kanefield:
https://terikanefield.com/
Jimbuna
10-06-19, 10:21 AM
Trump impeachment: Second whistleblower emerges.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49953225
Skybird
10-06-19, 02:05 PM
There probably are quite some more intel people in kowledge of Trump's communications. Question is how many will dare to step forward. While the law protects them if following the predefined procedure, Donald Capone has demanded his followers quite openly to put the first whistelblower down. And he did not mean that as a joke.
Season is open on them both. Nice "president" you got yourself there, America.
Here is what another famous whistleblower, the one who went against Nixon, has to say about the situation the whistleblowers today are in. They have good reason to fear for their safety and life.
https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fpolitik%2Fausland %2Fwhistleblower-daniel-ellsberg-sorgt-sich-um-ukraine-informant-a-1290068.html
I only wonder how far this "we the Republican support our President" will go ?
In the case where they would find solidt evidence.
Markus
Skybird
10-06-19, 04:28 PM
The evidence is already there, since Trump has commkited some of the acts right under the eyes and ears of the public.
The Republicans will support Trump as loong as it sits well with their voters at home. Evidence, law-and-order, justice - have nothign to do with it. The impeachment system in this view is lethally flawed, since it leaves the question whether to impeach a president or not, to non-neutral, biased actors with own interests. Its as if the question of foul play in footbal is worth a penalty or not is being decided by not a referee, but the playing team(s). Thats why I find the whole system quite worthless. It may have been worked with the noble people of the past at the times of the founders, but I somehow doubt that the people back then really were that much more noble than they are today.
The republican leader in the senate yesterday alreayd said it in a campaign video in Kentucky loud and clear: he and the Republicans will support Trump NO MATTER WHAT, he will bring any attempt of an impeahcment to fall.
https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2019-10/donald-trump-mitch-mcconnell-usa-impeachment-senat-stopp
Republican Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, in a campaign video for his state of Kentucky, is campaigning to block an impeachment of Donald Trump in the Senate. Under his leadership, the chamber would not allow that, he said in the video. McConnell will stand next year as a senator for re-election, thereby promoting his close ties to the US president.
In the video, McConnell points to the constitution that the House approved accusations against the President must be passed to the Senate for consideration. The so-called impeachment would be stopped at the latest with a "Senate majority with me as a majority leader," he said. However, even senior Republicans support an investigation into a possible impeachment procedure.
Only the loss of their own offices, and voters threatening to burn their house down can make them give Trump up. And what voters of Trump will most likely do, Trump described himself by that he could even shoot somebody on Fifth Avenue in public, and his fans would stay loyal to him.
The impeachment system simply does not work as it was hoped by the founders that it would, that simple.
Its made worse by having a two party system, with one party now being more or less extremely socialist, and the other being right-wing, nationalistic extremists.
u crank
10-06-19, 05:07 PM
The impeachment system in this view is lethally flawed, since it leaves the question whether to impeach a president or not,[I] to non-neutral, biased actors with own interests.
There is a better system. It will happen on Tuesday, November 3, 2020. It's called an election.
There is a better system. It will happen on Tuesday, November 3, 2020. It's called an election.
What if a majority of the American voters forgive him and give him a second chance ?
(or the American election system gives him a second term in the White House)
Markus
The impeachment system simply does not work as it was hoped by the founders that it would, that simple.
No Skybird, it is working exactly as my countries founders intended. Impeachment, or in other words, abrogating the will of the electorate, should require strong bipartisan support and rightfully be extremely difficult to pull off successfully. As U Crank said there is a far better way of deciding who sits in the oval office.
Skybird
10-06-19, 06:40 PM
When senators do not base their decision on whether the president must go or the case made against him and not on evidence and logical conclusion, but on their very own selfish career interests and the question whether they personally benefit and profit from the decision pro or against the president, then this is as if a crime case at court gets decided by the judges not on grounds of the police records and evidenc,e but the question whether the judge can persoinally benefit from making this or that sentence. That is a corruption of justice, or arbitrary justice.
This is not a working system. Because the lacking neutrality and objectivity of the people voting for or against impeaching - representatives and senatores all havign their own interests - is not taken into account sufficiently. When a suspect is brought to court to find whether he is guilt yor not,. it is not up to him to amke that deicison, nor is the decision up to his friends and accomplices.
As I said, as if in sports a penalty is decided on not by a - neutral - referee, but the one team that currently has one player more on the field or yells the loudest for its own advantage. That is absurd.
The judge, the mediator, the referee, the deciding instance, has to have no own interests in such a conflict or legal case that is to be decided. That is true for none of the senators in senate. Impeachment leaves the decision to the wrong instances. The parties should be the last to have a word in it. They should have no word in it at all, but somethign like an independencet state attorney that cannot be called up by the commander of the executive. The High ciurt might come to m ind, but then the judges there get called up by the running president, so this has to be changed, too.
This design can only be understood to be a consequence of different social, political, cultural, and historic circumstances at the time of the founders. They formed this idea of impeachment under the influence of the situation and time they lived in. And they cannot have forseen the massive and fundamental chnages - and distortions and corruptions - of politics in later centuries. And certainly did they not forsee Trump.
The impeachment system, like quite some other details in the founding papers, should be updated. Right now it is a fake effect. And this in a political system that leaves an awesome amount of power to the head of state. This impeashment system, designed to serve as an emergency safety not to be used by routine, cannot acchieve what it was meant to acchieve. And I mean this far beyond the Trump case.
Cries for impeachment (on rather ropey grounds from what i can see), And all these increasingly more common chants of "Lock him/her up!" Doesn't bode too well for the future of U.S and western democracy.
u crank
10-07-19, 05:24 AM
The judge, the mediator, the referee, the deciding instance, has to have no own interests in such a conflict or legal case that is to be decided. That is true for none of the senators in senate. Impeachment leaves the decision to the wrong instances. The parties should be the last to have a word in it. They should have no word in it at all, but somethign like an independencet state attorney that cannot be called up by the commander of the executive. The High ciurt might come to m ind, but then the judges there get called up by the running president, so this has to be changed, too.
This is pretty much the standard argument of progressive/left/Democrat activists in the US. If the system isn't working for them, then the system must be changed. Too many Conservative Judges on Supreme Court, add more Judges. Electoral College elects the wrong President, get rid of EC. Your suggestion that 'Impeachment leaves the decision to the wrong instances. The parties should be the last to have a word in it.' is silly. Impeachment is a political process. Nancy Pelosi is demonstrating that right now. There are other avenues to removing a President. We just endured one for over two years. Impeachment is not triggered automaticlly. It is a choice that a political party makes. Their reason for doing it is completely political. And this system is not going to change. As I have stated the best way to remove a President from office without the stain of political interference is an election. It would seem to me that the Democrat brain trust does not like that option because of a stunning lack of a capable candidate for the 2020 election. Impeachment will be putting a finger on the scale for that election.
Skybird
10-07-19, 06:03 AM
That is just distration. A criminal offender who has a majority voting him in a seocnd time nevertheless is a breaker of laws, a criminal offender. And voiters voting for such a criminal, should be held accountable for it. Becasue they help and agree to have a criminal offender in the office, which means they are accomplices in crime.
Nobody should eb allowed to stand abiove the law or bend it in his favour. I agree, impeachment should not be allowed as the stanard club to weild by opposition parties to get rid of a president they do not like. It is the ultimate ratio to remove an offender who poses a threat and a clar and present danger to the constittuional order of the United Staes, its laws, and who abuses his seat for own profit and benefit. The decision on dciding whether or not compliance with laws is maibtained, is not to be left to the electorate. It is not to be left to senators benefitting from it. It is to be left to a court whose judges have been called either in consesus of parties and the people, or in any way that I cannot imagne that guarantees these judges got called in neutrally, not interfered by office holders, wannabe-benefitters, and politicians.
Trump commits criminal deeds of serious scale and implication right in oublic, under the running mikes and cameras of the public. As a prsident, he is not just any nobody. Leaving him where he is, has far reaching consequences. He is a proven offender, he has given the proof right himself. Last time not even every fifth american has voted for him.
Impeahcment was created as an option to be used rarely. But it wa snot made as an otpion that to use is out of quesiton from all beginning on, then it would have been useless to even allow the option of using it, one could have left it out. It is a tool meant to allow limiting mounting signficiant damage BEFORE next elections, instead of countign down the clock while the calamity continues.
Trump is underhanded and slippery, but he clearly imlies he wants somebody to kill the whistelblowers, he has asked at least two foreogn states to mess with the internal affairs and generla elections in the US and to provide him dirt that he could throw against his rivals, he has blackmailed foreign states not in congruence with state interest and American laws and goals of diplomacy, but for his own perosnal interest. That is treason, that is consoriacy against the state and state reason, that is a betrayal of the american people, and last but not least it is the style and behaviour of a cheap carricature of a Chicago 1920th gangster. This is not a case for the electorate. It is a case for a court.The american law I think bans people who got senetenced earlier in their life from casting ballots at an election. Candidates who want to run, must also qualify in legal records of theirs, theyx cannot be offenders who are on the run from prison guards or who have broken parole. In other words: criminal offenders cannot run, nor can they vote (in some states at least, I do not know all the details of course). But a traitor and criminal in office can run for the predidency again and shall be immune from any attempt to remove him so that he has not the maximum time possible to maximse the damage he is doing?
Ridiculous, and totally illogical. You guys are too drunk by tribal emotions.
Bilge_Rat
10-07-19, 07:08 AM
So the whole weekend I heard dem/media talking heads/reporters arguing that Trump committed an impeachable offence by asking China to investigate the Bidens.
What I can't figure out is:
1. Are they just partisan hacks who will say anything to try to get Trump no matter how ridiculous?; or
2. Are they just so stupid that they actually believe what they say?
u crank
10-07-19, 07:21 AM
That is just distration. A criminal offender who has a majority voting him in a seocnd time nevertheless is a breaker of laws, a criminal offender.
An American citizen, including the President, is only held liable for crimes if he is convicted in a court of law. Inuendo and accusations by his detrators is just that.
And voiters voting for such a criminal, should be held accountable for it. Becasue they help and agree to have a criminal offender in the office, which means they are accomplices in crime.
Again you confuse the legal and political systems. Exactly how would you hold a voter accountable for his choice in a free and legal election. Are you suggesting that they be charged with a crime? The price voters pay is that their candidate loses an election. Shaming those voters is a dispicable practice.
But a traitor and criminal in office can run for the predidency again and shall be immune from any attempt to remove him so that he has not the maximum time possible to maximse the damage he is doing?
He is not immune to an attempt to remove him. Where did you get that idea? The legal process to remove him has begun. What other means would you suggest?
Of course that means is fraught with dangers for both parties involved. Since the impeachment process is a political one both sides can and will be held accountable in the political realm. 2020 is approaching fast and voters will have their say. That is the way the system should work rather than hysterical voices making demands that are outside the rule of law.
Ridiculous, and totally illogical. You guys are too drunk by tribal emotions.
Who are 'you guys'? I am a Canadian citizen. I have no more say in the process than you do. We both have opinions and you know what they say about opinions.
Skybird
10-07-19, 09:05 AM
An American citizen, including the President, is only held liable for crimes if he is convicted in a court of law. Inuendo and accusations by his detrators is just that.
Trump committed several of the things he gets accused of right under the eye of the public, with mikes and cameras running and or witnesses present. That is called evidence then. It gets not clearer than being caught in the act.
Again you confuse the legal and political systems. Exactly how would you hold a voter accountable for his choice in a free and legal election. Are you suggesting that they be charged with a crime? The price voters pay is that their candidate loses an election. Shaming those voters is a dispicable practice.
I was speaking more generally there. As a principle I say that every voter is repsonsible for the vote he gives, and cannot complai n about the consequences of it, becasue he gave this vote and not any other. When you vote for a criminal therefore you are responsible for having voted for criminal, and if he turns against you and turns you into his prey or sufferer of consaequences from his crimes, you have no case to complain about, sine oyuj legitimized him. Innocent victims are those who did not vote for Trump, and still must suffer the consequences from him getting elected. Those who elected him, are no victims, but perpetrators, followers, accompolices, however you call them in English, I am not sure on the correct translation of "Mitläufer". You are no victim of a criminal if you legitimised the criminal yourself. In case of pllticalians I dwmand of Western adult beings that by now they have understoof what kind of people they are dealing with and what their words are worth. You cannot live for years and decades and never learning the endlessly repeated lesson without showing that you are either hiopelessly naive - or incapable to learn. In which case you should have no right to vote, honestly said. I refer - once again - to the many books and writings by Jason Brennan on this issue of incapable voters.
He is not immune to an attempt to remove him. Where did you get that idea? The legal process to remove him has begun. What other means would you suggest?A process that is not nrigged by the deicison being made by biased acocomplicues who are not neutral but have their own ineteests in the game that overrule their search for justice and loyalty to the law. The decision is left to accomplices who are neither neutrall, nor unbiased. They have their own career intewrest, and they will deicde for or against trump not on basis of evidenc eand violations provne, but on the assessment of what serves their interests best. That is like a sports referee whisteling a game according to the money bets he has placed before the match began.
I maybe should add that I have since long a fundamentla issue with that the immunity of members of partliamnt can only be lfted by - parliament, and that potliians ijn general are not being held accountable with their private property and freedom for the consequncers of their decisions. They always play at the risk of other,s not teir own, and they always bet with other people'S moneyl, not their own. And they put themselves above the law if they are the ones that must be asked whether an offender from their middle can be investigated or prosectured. This is not up to them to decide, it should be decided by somebody who has no own interest in the game. As we say in german: "eine Krähe hackt der anderen kein Auge aus."
Same is true for the impeachment process. It leaves the decision to the wrong people - biased followers or rivals of the accused person, which in case of impeachment is the president. Its as if bringing a clan member to court - and leave the decision of his guilt to his family. What do you think how it will end? The family waill say: not guilty, he is one of us, we know him.
Of course that means is fraught with dangers for both parties involved. Since the impeachment process is a political one both sides can and will be held accountable in the political realm. 2020 is approaching fast and voters will have their say. That is the way the system should work rather than hysterical voices making demands that are outside the rule of law.So now you imply that the impeachment option itsel is "out of the law".
Impeachment is the ultima ratio to get rid of a danegrous offen der ion office BEFORE he can amximise damage by serving a full term. That's the very reason behind why there is the option of impeachment. If you declare that invalid now, you can delete the whole idea.
Canadian, okay, noted. :03:
BTW, Pelosi has resisted for mo nths and months to pressure from her party to start an impeachment process. Its just that finalyl the pressure grew so strong in the face of the latest stunts by Trumpo that she could no longer stop it without making the role of an opposition completely poitnless. But again,. she of cours eknwos that the proc ess will e stalled by Republican majprity senators in the senate, and she was therefore not eager at all to get impeachment launched.
It spöossibloe hwoever that the process beign laucnhed now encourages other whistleblowers as well to step forward. This is the real risk here for Trump, and that is the reaosn why he is so thinskinned now and becomes so vulgar in behaviour and language. Its about intimidating these possible more whistleblowers.
u crank
10-07-19, 10:52 AM
Trump committed several of the things he gets accused of right under the eye of the public, with mikes and cameras running and or witnesses present. That is called evidence then. It gets not clearer than being caught in the act.
This is an opinion that you and others have. And if it is true then let's proceed to the next step. Right now Pelosi, who has the say here on whether to move ahead with an impeachment has not done so. Ask yourself why. Democrats are playing a game here that they think the voting public won't see for what it is. The impeachment 'inquiry' is a farce. It has been going on for almost three years. I say get on with it. It will be great kabuki theater. Pass the popcorn.
Have some technical impeachment questions
An impeachment is what I understand almost like an ordinary trial were the accused get a verdict.
An accused can get guilty or not guilty
If Trump is impeached he is accused for having broken some federal law or laws.
Here's my questions
1. If Trump is found not guilty- What happens thereafter, does he go back and continue his job as the elected President ?
2. If Trump is found guilty as charged - What happens thereafter, who take over as the President ? Is it the Vice President or someone else.
(I can tell you that I have among many comments on danish news pages read stuff like- "It would be good if Trump could be removed so the Dem could take over the White House again")
Markus
AVGWarhawk
10-07-19, 11:54 AM
Have some technical impeachment questions
An impeachment is what I understand almost like an ordinary trial were the accused get a verdict.
An accused can get guilty or not guilty
If Trump is impeached he is accused for having broken some federal law or laws.
Here's my questions
1. If Trump is found not guilty- What happens thereafter, does he go back and continue his job as the elected President ?
2. If Trump is found guilty as charged - What happens thereafter, who take over as the President ? Is it the Vice President or someone else.
(I can tell you that I have among many comments on danish news pages read stuff like- "It would be good if Trump could be removed so the Dem could take over the White House again")
Markus
Not guilty Trump continues in the position.
Guilty: removed from office. Pence takes over.
Dems can attempt to take the White House back in 2020 at election time.
Trump will not be impeached. The senate will not pass it.
^ Thank you.
The last answer was given-It's only through an election the Dem can take back the White House. The other option is not an alternative, so I will not think about it.
Markus
House impeaches, Senate convicts or acquits.
Skybird
10-07-19, 12:51 PM
This is an opinion that you and others have. And if it is true then let's proceed to the next step. Right now Pelosi, who has the say here on whether to move ahead with an impeachment has not done so. Ask yourself why.
You better dont try to make it appear as if she has doubts in the justfication of the impeachment attempt. She just looks at the senate, remembers that Conway just said that no matter what he will stop any impeachment there,
and knows that even if the evidence found woulkd be overwhleming, Repiblican senators will ignore it and put their own career and election chances at home above state reaosn and jutsifce and the liability of Trump. Conway indicated - grinning like a mean pig, if I may say so - clearly that he doe snot care for any evidence against trump. He may be a criminal, but he is the Republican's cirminal adn that is what seems to count for most Republican senators.
As I explained, the whole impeachment mechanism is seriously flawed, and with the constellation of powers there are right now in the senate, it is simply: rigged.
Skybird
10-07-19, 12:56 PM
"As I have stated strongly before, and just to reiterate, if Turkey does anything that I, in my great and unmatched wisdom, consider to be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the Economy of Turkey (I've done before!)." - Donald Trump on Twitter.
Wowh. I expect any day now to see him walking over water. Thats the choice of words of megalomaniac people with very severe psychic problems who wrap a blue cape around their neck and jump out of windows, thinking that they can fly like Superman.
Or words of little boys who never grew beyond the age of 8. Washington should build buildings and monuments in honour of the big Führer, you know, like they do in North Korea and the likes: plazas, alleys, parade boulevards...
A sick mind, offering a sickening sight.
and knows that even if the evidence found woulkd be overwhleming, Repiblican senators will ignore it and put their own career and election chances at home above state reaosn and jutsifce and the liability of Trump. Conway indicated - grinning like a mean pig, if I may say so - clearly that he doe snot care for any evidence against trump. He may be a criminal, but he is the Republican's cirminal adn that is what seems to count for most Republican senators.
And we believe that if clear evidence emerged of Trumps total innocence in any subject that you and the Democrats would ignore it for much the same reasons. Whether you would be grinning like a "mean pig" while you did it is immaterial.
I know Europe does it different where your chief executive is just an appointed party clerk but in our case the US President is elected by the people through the 50 states. It should take the people to remove him in all but the most egregious circumstances which your fake whistleblowers and bullshine conspiracy theories simply do not qualify.
Skybird
10-07-19, 03:05 PM
And we believe that if clear evidence emerged of Trumps total innocence
And more denial of what happens right now right before your eyes. Trump is right: like he claimed in his great and unmatched wisdom (tm), he could shoot somebody on Fifth Avenue - and his followers still would loyally defend him.
Those whistleblowers indeed have all reason to fear for their lives. Enough followers who heard what Trump indicated to them, have weapons en masse.
For the record, I am no sympathiser of the Democratic party. Not. At. All. As I see it, you have a radical left-leaning socialist party, and a radical right-winged racist-nationalistic party in the US. And I dispise both and side with none of the two. There is no lesser evil in these two. Just two evils. Quite profane a choice between the two: choose none.
1. If Trump is found not guilty- What happens thereafter, does he go back and continue his job as the elected President ? Yes, just as president Andrew Johnson, and President Bill Clinton both did following their impeachment trials.
2. If Trump is found guilty as charged - What happens thereafter, who take over as the President ? Is it the Vice President or someone else.
He will go to jail, and the Vice president will become President and the speaker of the house will then become vice president.
u crank
10-07-19, 03:33 PM
He will go to jail,..
Congress does not have the power to put anyone in jail.
Conviction in the Senate results only in removal from office. Following conviction, the Senate may vote to further punish the individual by barring him or her from holding future federal office, elected or appointed.
After conviction by the Senate, "the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law" in the regular federal or state courts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_in_the_United_States#Result_of_convict ion:_removal,_and_with_an_additional_Senate_vote,_ disqualification
There is also the possibility that the new President would pardon the convicted President as Ford did when Nixon resigned.
And more denial of what happens right now right before your eyes. Trump is right: like he claimed in his great and unmatched wisdom (tm), he could shoot somebody on Fifth Avenue - and his followers still would loyally defend him.
Uh huh. I'd say that the over the top violent rhetoric like yours and the democrats constantly being thrown at Trump every day since he got elected is far more likely to cause violence than the rather old Trump quote you are forced to repeatedly use because you have nothing else.
Congress does not have the power to put anyone in jail.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_in_the_United_States#Result_of_convict ion:_removal,_and_with_an_additional_Senate_vote,_ disqualification
There is also the possibility that the new President would pardon the convicted President as Ford did when Nixon resigned.
(going little off topic )
I Can see it's a little different in USA.
Here in Denmark one of our former Minister Erik Ninn Hansen was impeached
From Danish wiki and translated through google translate.
By a parliamentary resolution of 11 June 1993, the Danish Parliament decided indict Ninn-Hansen for violation of the Ministerial Liability Act
"On June 22, 1995, Ninn-Hansen was found guilty of violating the Ministerial Liability Act with the votes of 15-5.
With the judges votes 12-8, he was sentenced to four months conditional detention with 1 year probation."
Markus
(End of going little off topic)
Skybird
10-07-19, 04:46 PM
Uh huh. I'd say that the over the top violent rhetoric like yours and the democrats constantly being thrown at Trump every day since he got elected is far more likely to cause violence than the rather old Trump quote you are forced to repeatedly use because you have nothing else.
Trump is as much the victim as were the Germans the victim when the Polish army was attacking Germany across the border back in autumn 1939.
I try to get a feeling of the mentality of the American voters by reading some of the post and a little of the rest.
And what our Journalist tells us the viewer here in Denmark and/or Sweden.
I can't say if the voters are beginning to get tired of this ongoing impeachments attempt by the Dem.
I'm pretty sure in the end it will backfire and may cost them dearly in the next election.
Markus
Trump is as much the victim as were the Germans the victim when the Polish army was attacking Germany across the border back in autumn 1939.
Again with the nazi comparisons. Have you no shame Skybird?
Skybird
10-07-19, 05:59 PM
Somebody who defends the shamelessness and brutality of Trump should not dare to speak about shame as if he knew what the term means.
Somebody who defends the shamelessness and brutality of Trump should not dare to speak about shame as if he knew what the term means.
Oh please. :roll: You're starting to sound like you actually believe that crap. What you gonna do when this fails as well? Haul out your Burmese Final Solution theory?
Giesemaschine
10-07-19, 09:27 PM
The Trump Derangement Syndrome is strong tonight.
Canonicus
10-08-19, 07:31 AM
Brand new Trump (Putin) campaign promo tee.
Have another question this time it's regarding American laws
Today on Danish and Swedish news I could read following
"US Secretary of State has asked U.S. Ambassador to the EU Gordon Sondland to stay away from a congressional hearing"
Isn't that some kind of obstruction of the law ?
Markus
Skybird
10-08-19, 02:58 PM
Isn't that some kind of obstruction of the law ?
Markus
https://www.wsj.com/articles/state-department-directs-gordon-sondland-not-to-appear-for-house-testimony-lawyer-says-11570538414
Rep. Adam Schiff (D., Calif.), chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, said Democrats consider the move by the Trump administration to bar Mr. Sondland from testifying and producing related documents “additional, strong evidence of obstruction of the constitutional functions of Congress.”
Once again Trump acts to illustrate that in his understandin the laws do not apply to him and he is above them, so is his regime. Its the selfunderstanding of dicators at display here.
Have another question this time it's regarding American laws
Today on Danish and Swedish news I could read following
"US Secretary of State has asked U.S. Ambassador to the EU Gordon Sondland to stay away from a congressional hearing"
Isn't that some kind of obstruction of the law ?
Markus
Not unless he (witness) is under subpoena.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/state-department-directs-gordon-sondland-not-to-appear-for-house-testimony-lawyer-says-11570538414
Once again Trump acts to illustrate that in his understandin the laws do not apply to him and he is above them, so is his regime. Its the selfunderstanding of dicators at display here.
You DO believe it! :har:
Not unless he (witness) is under subpoena.
Can you tell a little more about this subpoena
I read a little about on wiki and found this
1. subpoena ad testificandum orders a person to testify before the ordering authority or face punishment. The subpoena can also request the testimony to be given by phone or in person.
2. subpoena duces tecum orders a person or organization to bring physical evidence before the ordering authority or face punishment. This is often used for requests to mail copies of documents to requesting party or directly to court.
As I understand it he or they are obstructing the constitutional functions of Congress.
Or is there something I have missed totally ?
Markus
As I understand it he or they are obstructing the constitutional functions of Congress.
Or is there something I have missed totally ?
Markus
As I understand it what is missing is the actual subpoena order. So far Shiffs demands have been delivered as a Request to Appear.
This is all tied up in the non impeachment impeachment process the Democrats have adopted. You can't have an actual impeachment without a vote and with a vote the Republicans get subpoena power too which is something the Democrats desperately do not want so we get a lot of bluster and accusations that will not stand legally. Skybirds 4th Reich alarmism notwithstanding.
Thank you for lightning the light bulb above my head.
Sondlandor or more exactly the US Secretary of States, haven't obstruct the constitutional functions of Congress, ´cause he/they haven't received any subpoena yet.
Markus
Bilge_Rat
10-08-19, 04:13 PM
As I understand it he or they are obstructing the constitutional functions of Congress.
The answer is yes, no or maybe. Welcome to the Washington Bubble! :arrgh!:
If it was an actual "impeachment inquiry", probably yes.
However, the GOP is arguing you need a vote of Congress to authorize an "impeachment inquiry", the Dems say you don't.
Maybe the Dems are right, maybe they are wrong, the only thing we know for sure is that the issue will go all the way up to the Supreme Court to decide which pretty much kills the Dems chance to impeach quickly.
Of course, the Dems could side step all this drama just by holding a vote to authorize the "impeachment inquiry", but it is not clear they actually have the votes or the will to go forward.
in other words, it is all just politics.
Skybird
10-08-19, 04:52 PM
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49981806
Meine Fresse. Vergeßt Amerika.
u crank
10-08-19, 05:19 PM
And the letter from White House Counsel Pat Cipollone to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and the three chairmen of the Democratic committees.
https://www.scribd.com/document/429355567/WH-letter-announcing-noncompliance-with-impeachment-probe#fullscreen&from_embed
And the letter from White House Counsel Pat Cipollone to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and the three chairmen of the Democratic committees.
https://www.scribd.com/document/429355567/WH-letter-announcing-noncompliance-with-impeachment-probe#fullscreen&from_embed
Cliff notes:
"Take your political witch hunts and stick em where the sun don't shine. I ain't playing your game. -- xox The Donald"
Right or wrong it's nice to see the open push back compared to the Obama admins evidence destruction and obfuscation strategy employed in their many scandals. It's clear that these attacks are never going to stop while he is in office so he might as well fight back.
Buddahaid
10-08-19, 08:05 PM
I really can't see any difference August. It amounts to the same thing and how are we to know evidence hasn't been destroyed in this case? Wishful thinking? Republicans aren't duplicitous?
I really can't see any difference August. It amounts to the same thing and how are we to know evidence hasn't been destroyed in this case? Wishful thinking? Republicans aren't duplicitous?
Well he's basically adopting the Obama method, can't blame him seeing how well it worked, but actually having destroyed evidence (ie IRS hard drives being destroyed, cell phones and text logs being wiped etc) is still a lot different than "how are we to know it hasn't" don't you think?
I keep on forgetting the most important question
Which law or laws are Trump accused of having violated ?
I hear and read a lot about Trump, Biden, Woman(speaker of some house) Ukraine Biden son and of course the word impeachment, but haven't heard or read any thing to what type of law or laws he accused of having violated.
Markus
I keep on forgetting the most important question
Which law or laws are Trump accused of having violated ?
I hear and read a lot about Trump, Biden, Woman(speaker of some house) Ukraine Biden son and of course the word impeachment, but haven't heard or read any thing to what type of law or laws he accused of having violated.
Markus
In the latest Ukraine thing, I believe it's 52 U.S.C. § 30121(a)(2):
"It shall be unlawful for a person to solicit, accept, or receive a contribution or donation described in subparagraph (A) or (B) of paragraph (1) from a foreign national."
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/52/30121
Giesemaschine
10-09-19, 01:27 PM
In the latest Ukraine thing, I believe it's 52 U.S.C. § 30121(a)(2):
"It shall be unlawful for a person to solicit, accept, or receive a contribution or donation described in subparagraph (A) or (B) of paragraph (1) from a foreign national."
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/52/30121
"So they said they had—they were walking out to a press conference. I said, nah, I’m not going to—or, we’re not going to give you the billion dollars. They said, you have no authority. You’re not the president. The president said—I said, call him.
(Laughter.)
I said, I’m telling you, you’re not getting the billion dollars. I said, you’re not getting the billion. I’m going to be leaving here in, I think it was about six hours. I looked at them and said: I’m leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you’re not getting the money. Well, son of a bitch. (Laughter.) He got fired. And they put in place someone who was solid at the time."
- Joe Biden
"So they said they had—they were walking out to a press conference. I said, nah, I’m not going to—or, we’re not going to give you the billion dollars. They said, you have no authority. You’re not the president. The president said—I said, call him.
(Laughter.)
I said, I’m telling you, you’re not getting the billion dollars. I said, you’re not getting the billion. I’m going to be leaving here in, I think it was about six hours. I looked at them and said: I’m leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you’re not getting the money. Well, son of a bitch. (Laughter.) He got fired. And they put in place someone who was solid at the time."
- Joe Biden
Did you have a point or do you just like quoting Joe Biden?
em2nought
10-09-19, 02:53 PM
I keep on forgetting the most important question
Which law or laws are Trump accused of having violated ?
I hear and read a lot about Trump, Biden, Woman(speaker of some house) Ukraine Biden son and of course the word impeachment, but haven't heard or read any thing to what type of law or laws he accused of having violated.
Markus
I believe that law is titled "Orange Man Bad" :har:
Did you have a point or do you just like quoting Joe Biden?
He is giving you an example of someone admitting they broke the law that you are citing.
He is giving you an example of someone admitting they broke the law that you are citing.
Then I would suggest you two read the law since 52 U.S.C. § 30121 is a campaign finance law and has zero to do with what Biden allegedly did.
Mr Quatro
10-09-19, 03:51 PM
Then I would suggest you two read the law since 52 U.S.C. § 30121 is a campaign finance law and has zero to do with what Biden allegedly did.
The public that views these matters on national voting days have a right to know ahead of time which way to swing their vote ... We can only weigh what we know.
This is the same thing ... Guilty by word association alone :yep:
Then I would suggest you two read the law since 52 U.S.C. § 30121 is a campaign finance law and has zero to do with what Biden allegedly did.
So it was a bad example, if you're a lawyer. I don't think the average voter will make such small distinctions, nor should we because Biden is as dirty as they come. But the Democrats have used Russians, Ukrainians, the Australians, British, even a Maltese to try to influence the 2016 election then when that failed overturn the result, which also failed.
Now it's some unidentified CIA spies who turn in whistle blower reports that were written by the Democrats who are prosecuting this faux-impeachment soft coup attempt. I'm betting that this will fail as well.
Meanwhile The Durham investigation widens. The FBI IG report is due out soon. Dems are going to have some problems of their own soon.
Buddahaid
10-09-19, 04:59 PM
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49990160
"Yet the constitution does not expressly require anything other than a vote of the House on impeachment itself and a majority threshold for any referral of the matter to the Senate for trial"
Republicans must be so proud now that General Bone-spurs, with his "unmatched wisdom" has allowed Turkey to invade Syria, attacking the Kurds. The same people who helped us in the fight to defeat ISIS. What a great day for that Jackass in chief!!!
Republicans must be so proud now that General Bone-spurs, with his "unmatched wisdom" has allowed Turkey to invade Syria, attacking the Kurds. The same people who helped us in the fight to defeat ISIS. What a great day for that Jackass in chief!!!
Oh yeah like you ever cared about the poor Kurds.
Canonicus
10-09-19, 10:34 PM
Oh yeah like you ever cared about the poor Kurds.
It's obvious to a blind man that Trump doesn't give a sh*t about them either. He cares more about doing the work of the puppet master in Moscow.
I cant wait for the day we see the bastard traitor in a orange prison jump-suit.
It's obvious to a blind man that Trump doesn't give a sh*t about them either. He cares more about doing the work of the puppet master in Moscow.
I cant wait for the day we see the bastard traitor in a orange prison jump-suit.
No he cares more about our own people as he should. I hope he goes on to serve another term just because it will drive folks like you crazy.
Canonicus
10-09-19, 11:22 PM
Your a fool and a sucker if you believe Trump "cares" about you or anyone else. He's thinking about one person.. HIMSELF. This guy would rat his own mother out and throw her under a moving train to save his narcissistic, egoistic orange skin. (which will match his jump-suit very nicely)
One thing everyone knows about Trump is the fact Trump lies; he lies about anything and everything and he does so only to convenience himself and not out of duty to anyone or anything but himself; the big question is:
Given that Trump is a self-serving SOB who doesn't give a damn about truth or the damage done by his lies, why do the Trumpettes have any reason to believe he telling them the truth about his 'concerns' for them? Isn't it likely the Trumpettes may find themselves an US version of the Kurds when Trump is either given the boot by impeachment or reelection failure in 2020?...
It used to be said the honor of man could be judge in how he honors his debts...
...Trump is not an honorable man:
Unpaid bills pile up in Trump rallies’ wake --
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/08/trump-rallies-unpaid-bills-039631
...and let's not forget a little thing like Trump's promise to reduce the deficit; oh, wait... he's failing in that too:
Donald Trump Promised to Eliminate the Deficit in 8 Years. So Far, He Has Increased it by 68% --
https://www.newsweek.com/trump-deficit-debt-cbo-data-obama-1463802
...but, hey he's doing better than Obama did during his terms, right? Right?...
Trump inherited a deficit of $585 billion when he took office in January 2017. That was 58 percent lower than the $1.4 trillion former President Barack Obama inherited in 2009 following the financial crisis, a number his administration slashed over two terms.
Not looking very good as a possible campaign talking point for the GOP...
Seems like Fox News can expect a new Twitter storm from the Chump-In-Chief over the latest Fox News Poll:
Fox News Poll: Record support for Trump impeachment --
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fox-news-poll-record-support-for-trump-impeachment
..and Giuliani's Turkish dealings are rearing their ugly heads again and Trump's tiny little fingerprints are found on the dealings:
Trump asked Tillerson to interfere in DOJ case against Giuliani client: report --
President Trump pressured then-Secretary of State Rex Tillerson to help convince the Department of Justice (DOJ) to drop a criminal investigation against an Iranian-Turkish gold trader who was also a client of Trump's current personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, Bloomberg reports.
Tillerson refused Trump's 2017 request, saying it would be illegal to interfere with an ongoing investigation. He repeated his stance to then-chief of staff John Kelly in a hallway conversation in the White House.
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/465116-trump-asked-tillerson-to-interfere-in-doj-case-against-giuliani
...wonder what other Turkish entanglements Trump and his minions have been hiding... :hmmm:
<O>
u crank
10-10-19, 05:17 AM
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49990160
"Yet the constitution does not expressly require anything other than a vote of the House on impeachment itself and a majority threshold for any referral of the matter to the Senate for trial"
And of course that is true. The question that begs to be asked though is why. If Pelosi and the Democrats hope to claim the moral high ground they won't be able to if they go the route they are currently on. Yes the Whistleblower's identity should be protected (for now), but why are Democrats holding closed door meetings and then selectively leaking talking points to the media?
If Democrats have any hope of removing Trump by impeachment it will have to be a biapartisan effort. So far it is not and looks more like a 2020 campaign effort.
It is refreshing to see though that not all the left wing media outlets are giving blanket exoneration to the Biden's corrupt dealings. If Joe Biden wins the Democrat nomination he will have to spend his entire campaign defending himself. And his Lefty MSM defenders will once again be embarrassingly wrong.
But that doesn’t mean the Bidens’ behavior isn’t a legitimate problem for Democrats. Indeed, Biden has been taking political hits over of the intersection of his family’s financial dealings and his own political career for some four decades. Yet he has done nothing publicly to inoculate himself from the charge that his career is corruptly enriching his family, and now that is a serious liability.
https://theintercept.com/2019/10/09/joe-hunter-biden-family-money/
At the time, here’s how Daria Kaleniuk, head of Ukraine’s Anti-Corruption Action Center, put it to the Wall Street Journal: “If an investigator sees the son of the vice president of the United States is part of the management of a company … that investigator will be uncomfortable pushing the case forward.”
That, of course, is simply obvious, and it is the entire reason Hunter Biden was paid so handsomely to do nothing but sell his name to the company. That’s corruption. Enough.
Skybird
10-10-19, 05:57 AM
"In full view of the world and the American people, Donald Trump has violated his oath of office, betrayed this nation and committed impeachable acts, (...) To preserve our Constitution, our democracy, our basic integrity, he should be impeached."
You probably all know who said this, and by knowledge of the author's name some of you will already dismiss it. But it does not tmatter who said it. What matters is that it is the plain, sober summary of truth that is the basis for why Trump must be chased out of office.
He does not damage just a policy, an interest, a project. He damages the very constitutional fundament of the United States and its offices and services maintaining it and the very spirit and meaning on which they have been founded. He is eroding the justice branch and the independence of the law. He erdoes the selfunderstandinf and integrity of America. He betrays what historically the US has always stood for. He puts himself above the law. And he is so full of himself that he openly brags about this while doing it before running mikes and cameras, that convinced he is of his greatness that thinks he can even now get away with it. He should not. Not matter what it costs, he should not.
Basic integrity and trustworthiness of this thing named the United States. The remains of these two are what Trump has demolished, and wants to demolish more. For his own personal interests. Its not for a higher cause. Its not for the better of the people. Its for egoism of criminal proportions.
As a former psychologist I stick to what I earlier said. the man is a megalomaniac psychopath and has a deeply anti-social personality. Lacking education can be cured - by education. A pathologic personality cannot. There is no therapy. You can only protect the public by locking the subject away.
Skybird
10-10-19, 06:08 AM
"They (the Kurds) didn't help us in the second World War, they didn't help us with Normandy."
:o
Has this moron really just more dirt in his head? Is there nothing in this carricature of a man that does not smell rotten and foul? Disgusting.
The Kurds took the lions share of bleeding and dying for the US. against the IS, which was a threat to the US interests as well. Now, eRdoghan uses Islmaic extrmeists as fanatical as IS, to inavde Syria. Thanks to Trump. And the IS prisoners will get set free by the Kurds, if they do not execute them in scores and numbers, and they will all go - not to the US, but to Europe. Well, at leats that is somethign the Eurppeans cnanot complain about, the yhave had time enough to get their acts together on that and to seal off their borders - and decided not to do so, but to annoucne even more invitaitons to the world instead. Btu for itself, the "logic" behind Trumps comments on IS fighters now fleeing to Europe and that therefore he doe snto care, is a insult once again.
"They (the Kurds) didn't help us in the second World War, they didn't help us with Normandy."
Noo, did he really say that? Link please.
Kptlt. Neuerburg
10-10-19, 08:06 AM
Noo, did he really say that? Link please.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2019/oct/10/donald-trump-says-kurds-didnt-help-us-with-normandy-video
I will note that having watched the video myself Trump is citing some source without giving any details so I'd take it with a gain of salt. Now for the president to back stab the Kurd's who have done much of the grunt work in the fight against ISIS and then to say "Well they didn't help us in a war that happened 70-something years ago so who really cares what happens to them now" is disgusting and outrageous. I won't be surprised if nations like Jordan start to break their ties with the US.
Your a fool and a sucker if you believe Trump "cares" about you or anyone else. He's thinking about one person.. HIMSELF. This guy would rat his own mother out and throw her under a moving train to save his narcissistic, egoistic orange skin. (which will match his jump-suit very nicely)
:haha: Liberal tears of rage and impotence are just delicious!
As a former psychologist I stick to what I earlier said. the man is a megalomaniac psychopath and has a deeply anti-social personality. Lacking education can be cured - by education. A pathologic personality cannot. There is no therapy. You can only protect the public by locking the subject away.
Now you pretend to be a doctor. Why don't you go back to demanding the murder of the families of world leaders that you don't like Herr Doktor?
What was that thing about using nazi comparisons meaning you have lost the argument Comrade?:hmmm:
Canonicus
10-10-19, 08:59 AM
:haha: Liberal tears of rage and impotence are just delicious!
Sorry the truth hurts you and the rest of the Fuehrer,s fanatics. Did it hurt to insert your head up trumps ass? Good news is that you now have a brown nose to match the brown shirt you wear so proudly for the fatherland.
Sorry the truth hurts you and the rest of the Fuehrer,s fanatics. Did it hurt to insert your head up trumps ass? Good news is that you now have a brown nose to match the brown shirt you wear so proudly for the fatherland.
Careful son. Calling board members nazis and other personal insults is likely to get you a time out.
Canonicus
10-10-19, 10:04 AM
Woop dee doo! I'll take the punishment!
BTW.. seen the Fox News poll? Your boys in real trouble now.
Or will you call them "fake news" too?
Skybird
10-10-19, 10:16 AM
Dishing out is more fun than taking it, and August for as long as I know him here on the board has been a master of underhanded rhetorics himself, so he is not the right one to complain.
The poll:
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fox-news-poll-record-support-for-trump-impeachment
A poll is a poll, nothing more, but then: also nothing less.
Jimbuna
10-10-19, 10:22 AM
One and only appeal to tone down the name calling and personal attacks.
Woop dee doo! I'll take the punishment!
BTW.. seen the Fox News poll? Your boys in real trouble now.
Or will you call them "fake news" too?
Well I warned you and now so have the moderators. I would advise you heed their advice.
As for Trump we'll see. I've been listening to shrill prognostications of Trumps imminent doom for three years now by the Trump haters, almost always people I already don't much like, and surprise!, they ain't been right yet so you will forgive me if I don't share your confidence in his chances for a perp walk any time soon.
Thing is I didn't vote for him in 2016 but you can darn sure bet that I will vote for him this time, and not because of his political platforms, but because it will stick it to people who I increasingly loathe. People who I increasingly believe want to turn my country into another communist crap hole.
What else can one make of the non stop Liberal rhetoric that America was founded by evil men and has no right to control her own borders? That our constitution is outdated and our rights and liberties need to be restricted and our property confiscated when it serves the all powerful state? That an entire race of people are inherently racist, not for any actual deed or belief, but just because of the color of their skin. Either madness or evil or both but it needs to be stopped.
There is indeed a lot not to like about Donald Trump but to me his one saving grace is that he is not one of them, not controlled by them. Maybe he is motivated by selfish reasons but I don't care. The more they hate him the more I want him in there sticking it to them you dig?
I just hope that you don't think if the liberals are eventually successful in deposing him that everything will suddenly become the socialist paradise they dream of. They have started a civil war which is still cold at the moment but I increasingly believe will become more bloody than the last one was before it finally ends and I don't think it will end with a united group of states.
Almost everyone has his or her opinion when it comes to President Trump
What I see as the most important in this is not to point fingers at each other, but to respect your opponent
Just my 10 cent
Markus
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2019/oct/10/donald-trump-says-kurds-didnt-help-us-with-normandy-video
I will note that having watched the video myself Trump is citing some source without giving any details so I'd take it with a gain of salt. Now for the president to back stab the Kurd's who have done much of the grunt work in the fight against ISIS and then to say "Well they didn't help us in a war that happened 70-something years ago so who really cares what happens to them now" is disgusting and outrageous. I won't be surprised if nations like Jordan start to break their ties with the US.
Someone on the local radio made the comment, using Trump's 'Normandy' rationale (if anything he does has a rationale or is rational), the US should immediately cutoff all aid and support for, say, Saudi Arabia and Israel since they didn't help at Normandy, either... :D
<O>
Buddahaid
10-10-19, 05:30 PM
You're applying logic and it doesn't work that way anymore.
As I said, neither rationale nor rational...
Maybe if we got a viewpoint from people who actually do the job and who don't have bone spurs:
Military Leaders Fear They've Seen This Before. It Ended in the Iraq War. --
https://www.yahoo.com/news/military-leaders-fear-theyve-seen-185048509.html
<O>
Someone on the local radio made the comment, using Trump's 'Normandy' rationale (if anything he does has a rationale or is rational), the US should immediately cutoff all aid and support for, say, Saudi Arabia and Israel since they didn't help at Normandy, either... :D
Not only that, but more importantly South Korea who was not really on US side during WWII...
Onkel Neal
10-10-19, 07:01 PM
Look, don't like Trump? Fine. Think he's a bad leader, a scam artist? Sure, ok. Think his supporters are bonkers. Ok, but remember not to slur or attack people here--frame your argument with facts and overpower your opponent with reason and logic. In other words, don't act like Trump to counter Trump supporters.
Mr Quatro
10-10-19, 09:24 PM
Just think only (12) months and (3) weeks left to go :up:
Wouldn't it be nice if the news media came unglued and started beating each other up :yep:
Actually, it looks like Trump is coming unglued: he's flailing like a drowning man and babbling like the loon he is...
...and as far as "beating each other up", looks like Trump is taking the lead there too, blaming anyone and everyone, but himself, for his own incompetence and idiocy; its one thing to start blaming others, like Rick Perry, for his disastrous Ukraine call scandal, but when he tried to throw Pence under the bus by suggesting the media look into the VP's Ukraine dealings, well, if I were a Trump minion, I'd be sorely tempted to question Trump's loyalty to the minions and the need for loyalty to Trump...
The Trump White House is coming apart at the seams and is sliding off its always very shaky foundations. If you're looking for "beating up", the decline of the Trump administration seems poised to provide plenty of black eyes and split lips...
...and the media will just look on and gleefully report the round-by-round play-by-play...
...oh, and as far as "only (12) months and (3) weeks left to go", well, that impeachment/resignation approaching in the rear view mirror may be closer than you and the Trumpettes may think it appears...
<O>
@August: concerning your fear of "communist hole crap"
The gini coefficient
https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2015/demo/gini-index-of-money-income-and-equivalence-adjusted-income--1967.html
is continuously on the rise the last decades, which is a KPI in science of inequality.
Your country is now on a similar level of inequality like Russia.
In the same time the US has one the highest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita.
That simply does not fit together.
I really do not understand why it is so tough to understand that this is one of the big roots for the political issues in your country.
u crank
10-11-19, 04:39 AM
The gini coefficient
https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2015/demo/gini-index-of-money-income-and-equivalence-adjusted-income--1967.html
is continuously on the rise the last decades, which is a KPI in science of inequality.
Your country is now on a similar level of inequality like Russia.
That report from the link quoted is from 2015.
The Census Bureau released the 2018 Income and Poverty in the United States report. The news is good.
https://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2019/10/10/the_economic_news_from_the_census_bureau_is_very_g ood_103941.html
When income and employment go up, and poverty goes down, that’s unalloyed good. The Gini coefficient is more complicated. It mainly fluctuates based on how financial markets are doing, because top earners depend largely on investments, and those are more volatile than the salaries that underpin middle-class incomes.
However, 2018 worked for everyone. The economy did well, all the real measures of economic well-being were improved, and the Gini coefficient went down. More money, more equality. But you wouldn’t know it from the headlines.
Your country is now on a similar level of inequality like Russia.
The Democrats claim to want to fix that problem by basically turning the country into the next USSR or Red China. All powerful centralized government control, endless wars, limited rights, spying on citizens, a political class that is immune to the laws the rest of us peasants have to abide by. Sound familiar?
I really do not understand why it is so tough to understand that this is one of the big roots for the political issues in your country.
Why is it a problem now but not when the Democrats were in office last? I'll tell you why I think that is. It's because it's mainly a political issue made up by the Democrats in order to create social division. What right does the government have to mandate what a private company pays it's employees? What firearms I possess, what I am allowed to say or increasingly think?
em2nought
10-11-19, 10:57 AM
I think Trump came along too late, and I've waited too long to escape. The deep state and their partners are too powerful. We will eventually become a $#!# hole worse than Venezuela, and democrats will finally be happy. :har:
A few days ago I saw an episode of a documentary called Book of Secrets
This time it was Secret Service who was being investigated on how they work and so on.
In this program they interviewet former member of this organization, who have promised to give their life for the elected President of USA.
Threats attempted assassin and other things is almost what they have to deal with on daily basis
All this you already know.
What I didn't knew and was a surprise, ´cause I was, by reading comments here and on FB, convinced Trump was the most hated President.
It was Obama. He have received most threats as President.
Most of them from white power groups etc.
Markus
Skybird
10-11-19, 01:40 PM
Obama was seen as a threat to paint the White House black, so no surprise.
u crank
10-11-19, 02:39 PM
Obama was seen as a threat to paint the White House black, so no surprise.
More like red. :D
Catfish
10-11-19, 03:09 PM
^ Black, red, born in Kenia, a socialist, a communist, a fascist, a Hippie, a muslim, a jew, homosexual, or maybe he was a woman. The real devil. Words fail, or may have to be invented to describe him.
u crank
10-11-19, 03:38 PM
Words fail, or may have to be invented to describe him.
I don't need to use my imagination. History may not be kind to Barack Obama. And we may learn some of that history in the coming weeks and months.
Mr Quatro
10-11-19, 03:49 PM
I don't need to use my imagination. History may not be kind to Barack Obama. And we may learn some of that history in the coming weeks and months.
Funny you should say this ... Sources only known to myself say that Obama and Biden have secrets in the closet that have not been revealed as yet. Secrets that cast doubts on VP Biden's ability to lead our nation.
Probably close enough to the election that puts Trump back in the WH, but only to stay long enough to turn over to VP Pence in return for Trumps pardon. :yep:
Skybird
10-11-19, 05:29 PM
The big mistake the Democrats repeat once again:
https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.zeit.de%2Fpolitik%2Fausland%2F 2019-10%2Fukraine-affaere-donald-trump-amtsenthebung-beweise
Why should one still collect evidence against a culprit who poses with a megaphone in front of the world public and shouts: "It was me!"?
Nevertheless, the Democrats are about to engage again in the tedious game of subpoenas, correspondence, hearings and court cases. Evidently, Trump's opponents still cling to the mistaken belief that dealing with the impeachment process is mainly about legal issues. If the pile of accusations against Trump were high enough, it could improve the chances of impeachment - that's what they think. However, an impeachment procedure is not a criminal process.
Its the senators sitting in court. It is a purely political decision whether Trump is dismissed from office.
The Democrats make the same mistake as in the Mueller investigation. Special investigator Robert Mueller presented his report in April. In it, the former FBI head documented ten cases of alleged legal disability Trump. On the spot, the Democrats should have decided whether to initiate an impeachment or not. But instead of making a clear decision, they argued with the Ministry of Justice for the release of blackened passages and let Mueller to a long-winded public hearing without important findings. In the end, the Democrats could not get through to an impeachment.
The democrats act weak, without determination, and stupid. However, the red passage reveals why the system of impeahcment is not worth all the hassle at all. It has a seriosu design flaw from beginning on, at least it is a flaw as long as impeachment was never meant to be ever brought to usage in the first, but is just a fake option.
As the SS Trumptanic plows ahead full towards its iceberg, the crew that hasn't already wisely abandoned ship now face what I warned about in my last post: as Trump slides deeper into his self-made abyss, the minions around him are going to be used as scapegoats and patsies as Trump frantically attempts to deflect and distract from his own criminality. The latest victim would appear to be The Fraudfather's own personal attorney:
WASHINGTON – President Donald Trump sought Friday to distance himself from attorney Rudy Giuliani, even casting doubts about whether the former New York mayor is still his lawyer.
Asked whether Giuliani remained his personal attorney, Trump said: “I don’t know.”
...
Donald Trump distances himself from Rudy Giuliani: 'He has been my attorney' --
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/10/11/rudy-giuliani-donald-trump-wont-say-if-ex-mayor-still-attorney/3945806002/
This whole scenario has brought to my mind the phrase used by one of Nixon's top aides, John D. Ehrlichman, who, when Patrick Gray III, Nixon's nominee for FBI Director was caught up in the then growing Watergate scandal, and alleged to have destroyed key Watergate files at the behest of the Nixon White House; when it appeared Gray was going down and might take Nixon with him, Ehrlichman suggested the WH distance itself from Gray and, as Ehrlichman put it :
More chilling was Ehrlichman’s advice to Dean about L. Patrick Gray III, whose nomination as director of the FBI was stalled because members of the Senate Judiciary Committee weren’t getting satisfactory answers from him to their questions about Watergate. “Well, I think we ought to let him hang there,” Ehrlichman told Dean. “Let him twist slowly, twist slowly in the wind.” (Gray twisted for more than a month before his nomination was withdrawn.)
Words of Watergate: Part 2 --
https://dictionaryblog.cambridge.org/2013/01/28/words-of-watergate-part-2/
Nixon loyalist became the ultimate fall guy for Watergate --
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/nixon-loyalist-became-the-ultimate-fall-guy-for-watergate-1.469318
Now it appears its Giuliani's turn to "twist slowly, twist slowly in the wind"...
...I wonder if the other minion's might not wise up and realize their loyalty to Trump is a one way street...
<O>
MrMojok69
10-12-19, 01:32 AM
As the SS Trumptanic plows ahead full towards its iceberg, the crew that hasn't already wisely abandoned ship now face what I warned about in my last post: as Trump slides deeper into his self-made abyss, the minions around him are going to be used as scapegoats and patsies as Trump frantically attempts to deflect and distract from his own criminality. The latest victim would appear to be The Fraudfather's own personal attorney:
https://i.imgur.com/wkFcrTK.jpg?2
Don't really understand what point you're trying to make; I'm an independent and side with no party; in fact, I haven't even made up my mind who to vote for in 2020: the DEM field is still too scattered to see who might be their candidate and I'm still waiting to see who the GOP might run if Trump goes down in flames (and he's the one holding the matches) in the next year; if the GOP can come with a better candidate than the DEMs (and at this point, almost any GOP candidate would be a vast improvement over Trump), then I'll make a decision. One things for sure: I will not, under any circumstances, vote to reelect Trump; I care too much about this country to betray it with a vote for the incompetent idiot Trump...
Note to GOP: Think Ryan/Haley 2020...
<O>
MrMojok69
10-12-19, 03:20 AM
I didn't mean it as a jab at you personally, I meant it generally as a jab at people who voted for Trump who are now finding out that it wasn't in their best interests, and I meant it as a jab specifically at Giuliani, who you referenced in your post.
ikalugin
10-12-19, 03:37 AM
@August: concerning your fear of "communist hole crap"
The gini coefficient
https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2015/demo/gini-index-of-money-income-and-equivalence-adjusted-income--1967.html
is continuously on the rise the last decades, which is a KPI in science of inequality.
Your country is now on a similar level of inequality like Russia.
In the same time the US has one the highest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita.
That simply does not fit together.
I really do not understand why it is so tough to understand that this is one of the big roots for the political issues in your country.
I would point out that nominal GDP is a poor measure due to the local currencies often being undervalued.
I didn't mean it as a jab at you personally, I meant it generally as a jab at people who voted for Trump who are now finding out that it wasn't in their best interests, and I meant it as a jab specifically at Giuliani, who you referenced in your post.
Thanks for the response... :up:
I actually didn't really take it all that personally since I wasn't exactly sure where it was coming from or going to: my response was intended to clarify my long held stance(s) in the event there was a lack of clarity in my intent(s); its so easy (and really very lazy) to just want characterize someone as being GOP/DEM, left/right, conservative/liberal, etc., etc., rather than having the will and honesty to actually address questions and give considered answers or viewpoints. It seems if some people find themselves in a battle of wits and they are low or out of ammo, they very often fall back on the old, tired tactic of pigeonholing, sloganeering, and/or deflection...
As far as people coming to the realization supporting Trump was probably not in their, or their party's, best interests, it would seem those in the mainstream of the GOP probably thought they had a good deal going in with someone who could seemingly generate votes and rally the party; they probably also thought, once Trump was in the White House, he would 'level out' and be controllable; the shock to the GOP was in 2018 when the Trump panacea failed miserably in the midterm elections, costing the GOP dearly; equally dearly costing was the realization they couldn't handle/control Trump and his (and his minions) many, many character failings were dragging the Party down with him; buyer's remorse is an onerous thing and even more so when you realize you've been royally taken and there is no 'return policy'...
Sadder is the effect the Trump fallout will have on those in the GOP who are otherwise responsible, decent people and probably worthy of support; its galling to be blamed out of hand for the gross misjudgements of the others in the Party who chose to cast their lot with such a loser...
Again, thanks for the response and the clarification...
<O>
Skybird
10-12-19, 05:09 AM
Turkish artillery lands impacts very near to US groudn forces in Syria, close enough that the Americnan finally evaded in a rush. Pentagon seems to believe that it was not by accident, but intention.
Erdoghan plans for a lasting presence in Syria. He fires threats at Europeans to stop calling it an offensive or an invasion. Well. Lets see what trumps promised sanctions mayhem looks like. Since Merkel put Europe at a very depending position regarding Turkey, I do not expect any noteworthy reaction by the eU, of course.
u crank
10-12-19, 05:31 AM
Note to GOP: Think Ryan/Haley 2020...
That, like many other scenarios is possible but....someone will have to wave a magic wand and make Mike Pence disappear.
Onkel Neal
10-12-19, 08:19 AM
Don't worry, if the liberals manage to make Trump leave office they will turn their firehouse of madness on Pence.
Skybird
10-12-19, 08:36 AM
Having an infinite supply in basic ingredients in the form of the Democratic and the Republican party, I wonder why the US is not already global market leader in the production of bird fat balls. I mean none of the two is of any use beyond that.
u crank
10-12-19, 08:47 AM
Don't worry, if the liberals manage to make Trump leave office they will turn their firehouse of madness on Pence.
Yep. The only Republican President that would be acceptable to the Democrat/progressive/liberal people is one that they could put in the White House. :O:
Rockstar
10-12-19, 08:48 AM
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3sFJh6ed1Es/UC9C_yXeQfI/AAAAAAAABik/VhRHVuoO7rs/s1600/Odin.jpg
Yep. The only Republican President that would be acceptable to the Democrat/progressive/liberal people is one that they could put in the White House. :O:
As I understand it, there are two peaceful ways the Dem can take back the White House.
1. Winning the Presidential election
2. Keep on impeaching every Rep. - until they can put one of their own in charge.
Markus
Catfish
10-12-19, 12:09 PM
Meanwhile the US gave up their former allies against the IS, the Kurds in Syriah, when Turkey began to attack them.
Operation "Endless wisdom".
^ Why did Trump gave the order to withdraw his troops from that area.
I don't like to speculate I guess there's a reason.
Markus
u crank
10-12-19, 01:42 PM
The President's position is consistent with the Constitution and public opinion. He wants U.S. forces out of a conflict in which America’s interests have never been clear, and for which Congress has never approved military intervention. They are there because of President Obama's failed policies concerning Syria and Iran.
The Kurds that the US helped led by the YPG (People’s Protection Units) are the Syrian branch of the PKK (the Kurdistan Worker’s Party) in Turkey. The PKK is a militant separatist organization with Marxist-Leninist roots. The PKK remains a designated foreign terrorist organization under U.S. law.
It is a complicated situation. It's the Middle East. There probably is no good outcome. Having U.S. forces in northern Syria to fight ISIS or protect the YPG is not something most Americans support. Bloodshed and chaos is the Muslim Middle East’s default condition, so America would have to commit to an endless military occupation. Let these people solve their own problems or at least let nations closer to the problem get involved. Say for example, the EU.
Rockstar
10-12-19, 02:02 PM
Meanwhile the US gave up their former allies against the IS, the Kurds in Syriah, when Turkey began to attack them.
Operation "Endless wisdom".
We will support one faction or another like everyone else and use whomever to destabilize a certain government or region to our advantage. We are not the only ones that do this.
Germans are not the innocent bystanders they like to see themselves as either. Your country has sold and continues to sell to Turkey the hardware to effectively attack and kill Kurds. I guarantee if you tried to support Kurds over Turkey you would most likely have a very large Turkish uprising in your country (whats left of it).
We live in a screwed up world.
Rockstar
10-12-19, 02:10 PM
^ Why did Trump gave the order to withdraw his troops from that area.
I don't like to speculate I guess there's a reason.
Markus
It was one of his campaign promises. “I will never send our finest into battle unless necessary, and I mean absolutely necessary, and will only do so if we have a plan for victory with a capital V,” he thundered. “The world must know that we do not go abroad in search of enemies.” Though I dont think that means will not stop selling arms to the enemy of our enemy.
All politicians save most of their promises and act upon them near the end of their term. As election season draws near he is doing what every politician before him has done. He will make a show of keeping them.
Catfish
10-12-19, 02:39 PM
[...] Germans are not the innocent bystanders they like to see themselves as either. Your country has sold and continues to sell to Turkey the hardware to effectively attack and kill Kurds. I guarantee if you tried to support Kurds over Turkey you would most likely have a very large Turkish uprising in your country (whats left of it).
You're of course right (also with what i did not quote here from your post), however Germany has stopped to send weapons to Turkey, effective today.
https://www.dw.com/en/german-government-bans-weapons-exports-to-turkey/a-50807998
Which of course is a joke since Turkey already has so much that it does not need more. Also while german diplomats left a proper and resolute message to Turkey's Erdoghan, Merkel did not say much, read: enough.
re u_crank you defend the US and its policies, what is Canada's official stance on the matter? :hmmm:
Meanwhile the US gave up their former allies against the IS, the Kurds in Syriah, when Turkey began to attack them.
Operation "Endless wisdom".I think That was more a marriage of convenience/necessity, rather than an alliance.
Catfish
10-12-19, 04:44 PM
I think That was more a marriage of convenience/necessity, rather than an alliance.
I think that is a betrayal, and it sends a signal to other allies of the US.
em2nought
10-12-19, 05:01 PM
“The world must know that we do not go abroad in search of enemies.”
Which would be a good thing since "we the people" have plenty of enemies already right on our native soil within the Democratic Party, the Deep State, the Education System, the Mainstream Media, and Big Tech. :D Plenty of enemies to fight right here in the good ol' USA. :Kaleun_Binocular:
Day before yesterday Trump said something like
There's three way to handle this
1. Send the military and win
2. Impose Embargo and sanction
3. Negotiate a ceasefire between Turkey and the Kurds
There's also a fourth way
4. Close the eyes, put fingers in the ear and sing na-na-na....can't hear you
Markus
u crank
10-12-19, 05:41 PM
re u_crank you defend the US and its policies, what is Canada's official stance on the matter? :hmmm:
I'm not sure what Canada's view of Trump's troop withdrawl is but since one of Justin Trudeau's first acts as Prime Minister just days after his election in November 2015 was to end Canada's role in the air war against ISIL, I think it would be somewhat hypocritical to criticize Trump's decision.
We have taken in 58,650 Syrian refugees though since the war started there.
As to defending US policies... hardly. I was opposed to the US military involvement in Syria, Afganistan and both wars in Iraq. And all the proxy wars as well.
Mr Quatro
10-12-19, 09:16 PM
^ Why did Trump gave the order to withdraw his troops from that area.
I don't like to speculate I guess there's a reason.
Markus
I didn't say this, but an ad on FB did; "Trump has two twin towers in Turkey with a loan of 5billion dollars"
Trump said it Turkey did several of three or four things that he would ruin their economy. They have now done them all.
But I personally am glad no US military will be coming home in a body bag.
Why does Trump do anything?
I didn't say this, but an ad on FB did; "Trump has two twin towers in Turkey with a loan of 5billion dollars"
Trump said it Turkey did several of three or four things that he would ruin their economy. They have now done them all.
But I personally am glad no US military will be coming home in a body bag.
Why does Trump do anything?
If Turkey keeps pushing the envelope and some Americans get hurt, they are playing with fire. Putting 155MM rounds around am American Post, that they know was there, isn't an accident. No one was hurt, but is plain BS. Screw the Turks!
"One Army officer who has deployed to northeastern Syria and has knowledge of the situation said that multiple rounds of 155mm fire were launched from Turkey’s side of the border and that they had a “bracketing effect” in which shells landed on both sides of the U.S. outpost.
That’s an area weapon," the officer said, noting its explosive effects. “That’s not something we ever would have done to a partner force.”
The officer said that Turkey knew there were Americans on the hill and that it had to be deliberate. The service members vacated the outpost after the incident but returned on Saturday, according to a U.S. official and images circulating on social media."
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-forces-say-turkey-was-deliberately-bracketing-american-troops-with-artillery-fire-in-syria/ar-AAIGNOo?li=BBnb7Kz
https://i.imgur.com/eluFyEnh.jpg
An interesting column by George Will:
George Will: The spiraling president adds self-impeachment to his repertoire --
https://www.twincities.com/2019/10/13/george-will-the-spiraling-president-adds-self-impeachment-to-his-repertoire/
<O>
Coming soon?...
https://www.idiotfreezone.com/images/stories/publisher/gallery/19072928455b560f0ee21de0.12772315_trump-captain-queeg.jpeg
<O>
u crank
10-13-19, 05:40 AM
America is exceptional, but our elites are not. Today we are all Ukrainians.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/10/we-are-all-ukrainians/
What is inevitable these days is when one side of the political divide attempts to uncover corruption, it inadvertently exposes all the corruption and political failings with no regard to party affiliation. There is a lot more to come I suspect.
In a sense it is fitting that a former province of the Soviet Union beset by corruption, cronyism, and war has become the crux of Democratic efforts to impeach Donald Trump.
Have American values been compromised by association with less than stellar actors for political gain? Rather than instill Democratic ideals and Western legal values it appears that the opposite has happened.
The vocabulary of American politics has appropriated Russian terminology: maskirovka and kompromat, nomenklatura and czar.
This influence is manifest in the conduct of impeachment so far. Anonymous whistleblowers from within the intelligence services trigger investigations of the president. The speaker of the House announces an impeachment inquiry but does not call the roll. The quasi-official status of the investigation allows the Democratic majority to minimize Republican involvement. Hearings are secret. Selective leaks to media drive the impeachment narrative and consolidate partisan support for the president’s removal. To speak of narratives rather than evidence is to acknowledge our postmodern condition, where interpretations are more powerful than facts.
Somewhere in the great beyond Stalin is smiling.
Jimbuna
10-13-19, 06:33 AM
The President's position is consistent with the Constitution and public opinion. He wants U.S. forces out of a conflict in which America’s interests have never been clear, and for which Congress has never approved military intervention. They are there because of President Obama's failed policies concerning Syria and Iran.
The Kurds that the US helped led by the YPG (People’s Protection Units) are the Syrian branch of the PKK (the Kurdistan Worker’s Party) in Turkey. The PKK is a militant separatist organization with Marxist-Leninist roots. The PKK remains a designated foreign terrorist organization under U.S. law.
It is a complicated situation. It's the Middle East. There probably is no good outcome. Having U.S. forces in northern Syria to fight ISIS or protect the YPG is not something most Americans support. Bloodshed and chaos is the Muslim Middle East’s default condition, so America would have to commit to an endless military occupation. Let these people solve their own problems or at least let nations closer to the problem get involved. Say for example, the EU.
Personally I reckon it's because they didn't assist in the D-Day landings :O:
u crank
10-13-19, 07:07 AM
Personally I reckon it's because they didn't assist in the D-Day landings :O:
Worse than that they were no where to be seen at The Little Bighorn. Custer never got over it.:D
Jimbuna
10-13-19, 07:46 AM
Worse than that they were no where to be seen at The Little Bighorn. Custer never got over it.:D
:salute:
Onkel Neal
10-13-19, 08:47 AM
An interesting column by George Will:
George Will: The spiraling president adds self-impeachment to his repertoire --
https://www.twincities.com/2019/10/13/george-will-the-spiraling-president-adds-self-impeachment-to-his-repertoire/
George Will is usually right, and very astute. Yeah, Trump is digging his own grave. My hope is the Dems will impeach him and get it over with pronto, then it goes to the Senate. And then -- surprise, the Republicans see their opening and the Senate unanimously votes to convict and toss him out of office. Pence in 2020!
And his hair is getting worse!
(https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2019/10/04/donald-trump-world-leaders-impeachment-moos-pkg-vpx.cnn)
Of course, this is no excuse for the abominable way the Democrats have behaved over the last three years. They seemed determined to race Trump to the bottom of the ethics pile. They've been squeezing the impeachment trigger since Day 1.
Cold blooded murder, ethnic cleansing has begun!! Trump should be so proud at this time! 2 Kurd prisoners murdered by Syrians, and caught on video. Both had their hands tied at the time, Syrians are such tough guys!!
"Turkish-backed Syrian Arab fighters killed at least two Kurdish prisoners on Saturday, one of them lying on the ground with his hands bound behind his back, in a powerful illustration of the forces unleashed by President Trump’s decision to pull back American troops shielding former Kurdish allies in northern Syria.
A video that captured one of the killings shows two of the Turkish-backed group’s fighters firing bullets at close range into the man with his hands tied while their colleagues shout “God is great!” The second prisoner who was killed appears in the video alive and wearing a military uniform, but he is missing from the group’s later social media post about its captives."
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/syrian-arab-fighters-backed-by-turkey-kill-two-kurdish-prisoners/ar-AAIG68J
Mr Quatro
10-13-19, 01:52 PM
@eddie those US soldiers bracketed by Turkish guns have been removed from the area (all 1,000 of them) by military command.
Trump better do something at least a no fly zone ... My little vote doesn't mean anything, but my respect does. :yep:
Rockstar
10-13-19, 02:07 PM
George Will: "Kurdish friends"? Are you kidding me thats not a very good arguemt to bring against any president? There are no friends in the middle east there are only opportunities to advance national interests in the region. If I'm not mistaken the presidents ideas was to remove OUR young men and women from the area of conflict. That does not mean we are going to cease being a participant in middle eastern affairs.
You want to argue? Then argue the glaring hypocrisy of how the U.S. as well as other countries are selling arms to BOTH Turkey and the Kurds. And nobody in the executive branch OR the legislative are willing to stop it. When I see people crying a river over ethnic cleansing and burning babies. Just remember YOU sold those arms and ammunitions when you voted for YOUR representative to do this on your behalf. Quit whinning and take responsibility for your vote.
George Will is usually right, and very astute. Yeah, Trump is digging his own grave. My hope is the Dems will impeach him and get it over with pronto, then it goes to the Senate. And then -- surprise, the Republicans see their opening and the Senate unanimously votes to convict and toss him out of office. Pence in 2020!
...
Pence is toast when Trump gets the boot. In a scenario where Trump resigns or is removed by impeachment, the likelihood Pence will then pardon Trump is very high; you know the probable excuse, "I pardoned him to put this behind us and to let the nation heal..."; that was tried once before and it didn't work out at all well for either Ford or the GOP. The voters won't look too kindly on such a quid pro quo ("I resign, you pardon"), so running Pence is a non-starter. The same would apply even if Pence doesn't pardon Trump; Pence will have that "Trump taint" on him; there's also the fact that Pence, and his stances/philosophies don't really resonate with a broad cross section of voters for various reasons; if the GOP is smart, at least for this situation, they'll find a more moderate candidate (and running mate) to put up for election. If the DEMs do put up someone considered to be too far to the Left, it makes no sense to put up GOP candidate too far to the Right; there are way too many voters in the middle either party needs to attract in order to win to risk having them to not vote for their candidate; the US has just gone through full bull goose loony in the White House and I don't think the voters have an appetite to revisit the same regardless of which party extreme is running...
<O>
^ is that possible ?
I remember some of our friend Platapus comment on this
From what I can remember...this is not how it goes.
Then my memory are not that good anymore.
Markus
u crank
10-13-19, 04:56 PM
"Turkish-backed Syrian Arab fighters killed at least two Kurdish prisoners on Saturday, one of them lying on the ground with his hands bound behind his back, in a powerful illustration of the forces unleashed by President Trump’s decision to pull back American troops shielding former Kurdish allies in northern Syria.
A video that captured one of the killings shows two of the Turkish-backed group’s fighters firing bullets at close range into the man with his hands tied while their colleagues shout “God is great!” The second prisoner who was killed appears in the video alive and wearing a military uniform, but he is missing from the group’s later social media post about its captives."
I think this is (and I mean no disrespect Eddie), the very reason why the US or any Western nation should not send its young men and women into these places. There is no power on this earth that can compel these people to change from behaving like this. It is in their DNA and there is no indication that it will change any time soon. It's sad but it's a fact.
Amazing how these doves suddenly turn into war hawks when it's not their guy pulling our troops out of foreign entanglements.
Buddahaid
10-13-19, 06:59 PM
Sure thing. So what was your plan other than whining about liberals whining about Trump's moves? Seriously, ME is f'd up no matter what anyone does, or doesn't do, and the blame falls squarely on religious ideology as it always has and always will there. We either stay involved and hope for a miracle, or leave and let it go to hell as it apparently has. Either way, the west will end up seen as the bad guy so we may as well just leave at let it burn, after all, we DO NOT need the oil if we stop selling ours abroad for profit, or is that prophets?
Sure thing. So what was your plan other than whining about liberals whining about Trump's moves? Seriously, ME is f'd up no matter what anyone does, or doesn't do, and the blame falls squarely on religious ideology as it always has and always will there. We either stay involved and hope for a miracle, or leave and let it go to hell as it apparently has. Either way, the west will end up seen as the bad guy so we may as well just leave at let it burn, after all, we DO NOT need the oil if we stop selling ours abroad for profit, or is that prophets?
Is this addressed to me?
Buddahaid
10-13-19, 07:12 PM
Yes.
Mr Quatro
10-13-19, 07:19 PM
What I find ironic is Trump sending 2,000 men to SA with air defences :hmmm:
Rockstar
10-13-19, 07:48 PM
We're not a charity, our national interests are at the heart of everything we do in the middle east. The interests of the Kurds and their usefulness has come to an end, on too Saudi Arabia! By the way your representatives in congress could stop that from happening you know. But they don't. Oh sure there's the media drama and finger pointing but that show is for your consumption.
Yes.
Well I don't understand your hostility because I agree with you. We've stayed involved over there hoping for a miracle for nearly two decades now and it's obvious that nothing we will have done will last 5 seconds after we do leave, if that ever happens. Especially in Syria where the few troops we do have there are little more than human shields. A line in the dirt meant to guarantee good behavior. Trouble with being a "dare line" is that someone eventually steps on it and rubs it out.
So since you demand "my plan" it would be to pull our troops out of not just Syria but every other middle east country as well by the end of the year. Anything we can't take with us we destroy. I'd also bring along the indigenous translators and others who have worked for us, and their families too. It would be wrong to leave them behind if they want to become Americans they should be given the opportunity. As you say we will be seen as the bad guy either way so we might as well adopt the plan with the least cost in our peoples lives.
Onkel Neal
10-13-19, 08:12 PM
Well I don't understand your hostility because I agree with you. We've stayed involved over there hoping for a miracle for nearly two decades now and it's obvious that nothing we will have done will last 5 seconds after we do leave, if that ever happens. Especially in Syria where the few troops we do have there are little more than human shields. A line in the dirt meant to guarantee good behavior. Trouble with being a "dare line" is that someone eventually steps on it and rubs it out.
So since you demand "my plan" it would be to pull our troops out of not just Syria but every other middle east country as well by the end of the year. Anything we can't take with us we destroy. I'd also bring along the indigenous translators and others who have worked for us, and their families too. It would be wrong to leave them behind if they want to become Americans they should be given the opportunity. As you say we will be seen as the bad guy either way so we might as well adopt the plan with the least cost in our peoples lives.
Works for me.
Buddahaid
10-13-19, 08:14 PM
No hostility August, just calling you out on making jabs at liberals in general for being liberal minded. :hmmm:
Rockstar, no the US should not be seen as a charity, but what message is being sent? We are your fair weather friends as long as you are in our interest zone, don't count on us or our word, we're only interested in us. So long suckers!
No hostility August, just calling you out on making jabs at liberals in general for being liberal minded. :hmmm:
Is that what that was? Maybe you should have been up front with it so I wouldn't have wasted my time telling you my plan!
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