US Politics Thread 2016-2020

[Jimbuna]

To be opened for business somewhere around 19th December or whenever the presidential voting has taken place.

[Rockstar]

Its official Trump wins!

[Oberon]

Well, let's see how he goes. I don't need to say any more than that because I've already said it, so now we just see what happens. But there will be lots of criticisms of him, no doubt, some warranted, some not, but that's what happens when you are President. If Trump really wanted the job, he may soon find himself regretting that desire, if he didn't...well, he should have known better than to tempt fate. :03:

Good luck with it.

[AVGWarhawk]

I hope we are nnot tweeted into a war! Someone needs to pull the tweeting app off his phone.

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

I hope we are nnot tweeted into a war! Someone needs to pull the tweeting app off his phone. Maybe this is the answer? :D
https://s6.postimg.org/en55oagn5/protecting_trump_by_jollyjack_daonhz2.jpg

[Mr Quatro]

Your cartoon reminded of this little problem surfacing soon and very soon:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-private-security_us_58582298e4b039044709b933

Donald Trump Reportedly Plans To Keep Private Security Team As President

President-elect Donald Trump reportedly plans to stick with members of his aggressive private security crew of loyal retired ex-cops and former FBI agents, and won’t rely solely on the Secret Service in the White House, according to Politico.

That would be a major break with tradition and raises fears that the future president could be surrounded by a cadre of strong-arm bodyguards who take an extremely hard line on protesters. The private pack has accompanied Trump on his tour of “thank you” rallies, where the bodyguards have roughly ejected protesters from venues.

The secret service is not going to just get along with anyone ... guns around the president should be well trained Secret Service men and women not a bunch of good ole boys.

[Bilge_Rat]

I hope we are nnot tweeted into a war! Someone needs to pull the tweeting app off his phone.

definitely!

[STEED]

About time you lot got a thread all in one place. :03:

Well its going to be interesting times ahead here outside America and for you guys there you will be right on the ball. Lets see if Trump tones down the mouth and tweets and gets down to business.

[Platapus]

As I posted before, let's give the man a chance. Not like there is anything else we can do. We will have plenty of time to hate Trump during his term. Let's wait until he actually does something wrong.

[vienna]

There is an outside chance Trump could pull a Schwarzenegger; when Arnie was elected Governor of California, the CA-GOP was salivating at the chance to impose their policies on the state's population; a grand collection of initiatives was placed on the state ballot after Arnie took office with the confidence his imprimatur would sway the voters; the end result was a very, very hard slap-down by the voters and Arnie immediately sang a different tune, much to the dismay of the shattered CA-GOP. Then, again, what did the CA-GOP expect from a guy married into the Kennedy family? Farfetched this could happen with Trump? Well, remember, Trump was a Democrat originally, and he has already backtracked or modified on a few of his more popular campaign pledges (special prosecutor for Hillary, complete repeal of Obamacare, etc.) and, while he claimed he would 'drain the swamp' in DC, he seems to have been hiring on some of the 'gators as members of his team. What was that old saw? "The more things change, the more they remain the same..."...



<O>

[MaDef]

Your cartoon reminded of this little problem surfacing soon and very soon:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-private-security_us_58582298e4b039044709b933

Donald Trump Reportedly Plans To Keep Private Security Team As President



The secret service is not going to just get along with anyone ... guns around the president should be well trained Secret Service men and women not a bunch of good ole boys.Fake news.

[Catfish]

As I posted before, let's give the man a chance. Not like there is anything else we can do. We will have plenty of time to hate Trump during his term. Let's wait until he actually does something wrong.

Not much you can do, right. Half of the US population voted for this man.

[u crank]

Half of the US population voted for this man.

Or.... they voted against the other candidate. :hmmm:

[Platapus]

Not much you can do, right. Half of the US population voted for this man.

Not half of the population, about half of the population that was not too lazy to get off their butts and get out there and vote. Once in four years, we have the chance to vote for our president. I guess that is just a bit too inconvenient for almost half of the population. :down:

Nationwide, it was the lowest voter turnout in 20 years.

Voter fraud is not a problem in the US. Voter apathy is.

But the parties don't seem to be concerned with that. No headlines in addressing voter apathy.

[Platapus]

This does raise an interesting question. Is the president required to have Secret Service protection? I will have to research that. It may not be up to the president. I am pretty sure that the USSS has the authority to "interdict" if there are any private security forces around the president.

[GoldenRivet]

I hope to see something constructive done about or with the affordable care act.

rates, for literally every single person i personally know both on "Obamacare" and with employer provided health care has increased anywhere from 3 to 6 times over the past few years.

The health insurance in my family is provided through my wife's employer offered health care plan, we have received letter after letter about rate changes over the past couple of years.

i can personally guarantee that the first 25-30% of each of her work month goes just toward covering premiums and the cost is ridiculous. especially where i am concerned because prior to ACA, i had NO health insurance, no premiums, i literally always either paid cash for what few medical treatments or doctor visits i needed or signed up on a payment plan to pay $100 a month (or some other amount) until the debt was paid.

admittedly that was easy to do in my 20s and early 30s, and as age creeps up on us both health will certainly decline and paying cash becomes unreasonable or outright impossible.

but, the bottom line is, the government does something like pass the ACA to "help you" and then they end up bleeding you dry by pulling money out of your check.

------

next up, congressional term limits, congressmen (and women for the sake of being pc :doh: ) get elected and then they end up keeping their seats for 40 and 50 years simply because it is human nature to resist change... well, the cornerstone of progress is change, get them in, let them innovate with fresh ideas for 4 or 6 years and then push em out!

------

remove the golden parachute

put all of the congressional leaders on social security, remove the lifetime income guarantee, and require all congressional leaders to be on the same health care plan as is offered by the government. period. remove the first class citizen status these idiots have

[Platapus]

put all of the congressional leaders on social security, remove the lifetime income guarantee, and require all congressional leaders to be on the same health care plan as is offered by the government. period. remove the first class citizen status these idiots have

I take it that you are unaware that this already is in place.

1. Members of Congress have been paying into Social Security since 1984 (PL 98-21).

2. Members of Congress are in the same retirement pension plan as other federal employees. Members of Congress are eligible for a pension at the age of 62 if they have completed at least five years of service. Members are eligible for a pension at age 50 if they have completed 20 years of service, or at any age after completing 25 years of service. The amount of the pension depends on years of service and the average of the highest three years of salary. By law, the starting amount of a Member’s retirement annuity may not exceed 80% of his or her final salary.

3. Prior to 2014, members of congress were covered by the same health plan as other federal employees -- The Federal Employee's Health Benefits Program.But starting Jan. 1, 2014, House and Senate members, and their staffs, can only obtain employer-subsidized, private coverage through the exchanges established under the ACA. So actually members of Congress lost their health coverage through the FEHBP and now has to purchase private insurance through the ACA exchanges.

It keeps going around the Internets Tubes how congress is in a special class and are exempt from pretty much anything. Members of Congress are federal employees and their benefits are in the same class as for other federal employees. There are some minor differences but they are truly minor.

[agathosdaimon]

I hope to see something constructive done about or with the affordable care act.

rates, for literally every single person i personally know both on "Obamacare" and with employer provided health care has increased anywhere from 3 to 6 times over the past few years.

The health insurance in my family is provided through my wife's employer offered health care plan, we have received letter after letter about rate changes over the past couple of years.

i can personally guarantee that the first 25-30% of each of her work month goes just toward covering premiums and the cost is ridiculous. especially where i am concerned because prior to ACA, i had NO health insurance, no premiums, i literally always either paid cash for what few medical treatments or doctor visits i needed or signed up on a payment plan to pay $100 a month (or some other amount) until the debt was paid.

admittedly that was easy to do in my 20s and early 30s, and as age creeps up on us both health will certainly decline and paying cash becomes unreasonable or outright impossible.

but, the bottom line is, the government does something like pass the ACA to "help you" and then they end up bleeding you dry by pulling money out of your check.

------

next up, congressional term limits, congressmen (and women for the sake of being pc :doh: ) get elected and then they end up keeping their seats for 40 and 50 years simply because it is human nature to resist change... well, the cornerstone of progress is change, get them in, let them innovate with fresh ideas for 4 or 6 years and then push em out!

------

remove the golden parachute

put all of the congressional leaders on social security, remove the lifetime income guarantee, and require all congressional leaders to be on the same health care plan as is offered by the government. period. remove the first class citizen status these idiots have



I think quite simply they are going to gut Obamacare and not look to replace it for a while - that might take years even - - even though trump had mentioned a while back in passing he likes some parts, i cant imagine that he is going to really stick with that, when he flips on everything else and it is not even in line iwth the GOP who despise anything that isnt controlled by private interests looking for a profit and driven by some quite backward and disturbing ideologies sadly.

affordable quality health care is not impossible - most developed countries have it no problems - we have it in australia, where it is a mix of public and private and that works well, i think most australians are happy to pay the fraction they do into medicare.

All the ideology aside though there are inevitable problems - if the population is aging, getting sicker and needing more regular care, also if the overall health of a population declines - evident with the rise in junk food consumption and obesity levels in the western world in the recent decade, and also access to fresh food, clean air and clean water

-one thing i am very concerned for my US friends about is that Trump and the people he has gathered want to eliminate the EPA - this is madness really, - getting rid of regulatory bodies pretty much guarantees the further contamination of water supplies
- and this is already a big issue in the USA - not just Flint, but in many other cities where lead levels are even higher as it has been found now

and if you want to see what air quality looks like with no regulations on pollution just look at China now, where the air pollution is so bad that even flights are ground, and similarly in Delhi.

It is galling and beyond disturbing the kind of apocalyptic levels of insanity that are being harnessed to form the Trump admin - slipping into very dark dark places.

[Oberon]

20-30%? What on Earth are you guys doing? :o

I don't pretend that our system is perfect but it certainly seems a lot simpler. You pay in a certain percentage of contribution each paycheck, which varies depending on your pay rate, and that is all sent to the National Insurance Fund which then helps fund the service so that it is free of charge at point of delivery.
The US health care system seems complex for no reason other than the sake of being complex. :hmmm: I just don't get it.

[agathosdaimon]

The GOP led destruction of the USA's programs like ACA, social security and its various regulatory bodies and institutions aside

trump himself is descending now well into running a far right fascism and knitting such deep system divisions into all parts of not just the government, but also the media and now the intelligence bodies -

here is another example of the despotic autocracy that is now powering up

http://www.salon.com/2016/12/20/donald-trumps-goon-squad-as-president-trump-will-maintain-private-security-force-to-crack-down-on-protest/#.WFno_zNESsg.facebook

I really am quite deadly serious about all this and am fearful for the lives of not just the american population but the whole globe.

[August]

here is another example of the despotic autocracy that is now powering up

http://www.salon.com/2016/12/20/donald-trumps-goon-squad-as-president-trump-will-maintain-private-security-force-to-crack-down-on-protest/#.WFno_zNESsg.facebook

Quoting Salon is like quoting the Democratic National Committee. Nothing but Liberal claptrap and it seems to have skewed your view of my country.

[Onkel Neal]

The GOP led destruction of the USA's programs like ACA, social security and its various regulatory bodies and institutions aside

trump himself is descending now well into running a far right fascism and knitting such deep system divisions into all parts of not just the government, but also the media and now the intelligence bodies -

here is another example of the despotic autocracy that is now powering up

http://www.salon.com/2016/12/20/donald-trumps-goon-squad-as-president-trump-will-maintain-private-security-force-to-crack-down-on-protest/#.WFno_zNESsg.facebook

I really am quite deadly serious about all this and am fearful for the lives of not just the american population but the whole globe.


Aww, relax, we're going to have some grown-ups running the government for a change. Well, maybe not the President, but so far, his cabinet is solid. All proven leaders and successful people, not chosen because they make the cabinet look diverse.

[Oberon]

I really am quite deadly serious about all this and am fearful for the lives of not just the american population but the whole globe.

Take a read through the election thread, have a look at the discussions there...and then think about the responses you expect to get to a statement like that in General Topics.

[GoldenRivet]

20-30%? What on Earth are you guys doing? :o

I don't pretend that our system is perfect but it certainly seems a lot simpler. You pay in a certain percentage of contribution each paycheck, which varies depending on your pay rate, and that is all sent to the National Insurance Fund which then helps fund the service so that it is free of charge at point of delivery.
The US health care system seems complex for no reason other than the sake of being complex. :hmmm: I just don't get it.

it costs a lot to cover a family of four with medical, vision and dental.

[GoldenRivet]

I take it that you are unaware that this already is in place.

1. Members of Congress have been paying into Social Security since 1984 (PL 98-21).

2. Members of Congress are in the same retirement pension plan as other federal employees. Members of Congress are eligible for a pension at the age of 62 if they have completed at least five years of service. Members are eligible for a pension at age 50 if they have completed 20 years of service, or at any age after completing 25 years of service. The amount of the pension depends on years of service and the average of the highest three years of salary. By law, the starting amount of a Member’s retirement annuity may not exceed 80% of his or her final salary.

3. Prior to 2014, members of congress were covered by the same health plan as other federal employees -- The Federal Employee's Health Benefits Program.But starting Jan. 1, 2014, House and Senate members, and their staffs, can only obtain employer-subsidized, private coverage through the exchanges established under the ACA. So actually members of Congress lost their health coverage through the FEHBP and now has to purchase private insurance through the ACA exchanges.

It keeps going around the Internets Tubes how congress is in a special class and are exempt from pretty much anything. Members of Congress are federal employees and their benefits are in the same class as for other federal employees. There are some minor differences but they are truly minor.


thank you for the info

I'll read up on it

[Oberon]

it costs a lot to cover a family of four with medical, vision and dental.

Of course, I didn't take into consideration that it's not a state or local government defined rate. One thing I will concede in regards to our health service is that things like dental and vision are generally not covered by the National Insurance rate, so when I eventually go back to the dentist or opticians I will have to pay for this, and the rates are, not particularly low. There are options on the table for those on the social and that, but for the most part you do have to pay. So there's that. Obviously we have health insurance over here too which also (sometimes) can go towards those kinds of bills, and you do also have to pay a flat rate for prescription medicine unless you meet certain criteria, for example if you have a specified medical condition and have a valid medical exemption certificate, these conditions include diabetes, epilepsy, cancer and/or other physical conditions which prevent you from going outside without assistance. Also, if you reach pension age then prescriptions are free. The current flat rate is £8.40, which is about 10 dollars per item.
So, your family of four in the UK would have the adult workers pay in their National Insurance contribution, depending on your wage, if the kids are under 16 then the prescriptions are free, so the main thing you'd be paying for would be dental and optical treatments. You can get free eye tests in some places, but actually getting the lenses and frames, you're probably looking at anything up to and over £100 ($123 dollars), as for a dental check-up...off the top of my head, the last time I went (which was too long ago...really need to get back) was between £40-60 ($49-74) so outside of your National Insurance contribution you're looking at about $200 per person per appointment, and that's just basic stuff in regards to the dentist, the opticians would probably be lower for just check-ups, but in regards to lense replacement and that, you're looking at the higher end of the scale obviously.
Now National Insurance contribution rates vary wildly, I don't know what you bring in as a family, so I'll base it on the UK average income which is £26,500 per year ($32,111) which works out at around £2208 a month, which means that the contribution is 13.8% which is £305 approximately. So you're probably looking at around £400-500 per month expenses on medical coverage in the UK for yourself, which is around 20-25%. Of course, the two kids would not need to pay into the NI until they start work, so you can deduct that £305 each for them, but you'd still have to pay for dental and opticians as the need arose and when they get over 16 then you'll also need to pay prescription charges, although if it's long-term medication then you'll usually get enough to cover a months supply, so that's £8.40 per month, depending on the condition of course.

So, at the end of all that rabbit, there's some parity there in our two systems, but there are also some differences, and I must admit I still can't get my head around the American healthcare system, especially when I see some of the hospital bills, and some of the really stupid stuff that people get charged for, but that's something that you tend to only see negative examples of, so that does present a skewed image somewhat.

[Oberon]

I will just say though, before clocking off for now, that our system is by no means perfect, and I really cannot stress that enough. We Brits may have a bit of a gloat about it, but at the end of the day there are some pretty big problems facing it at the moment, and a lot of it is down to mismanagement and funding shortages...not to mention the potential for staff shortages post-Brexit (depending on what particular flavour Brexit we get).
That being said, I think that it is a part of the British national identity and if anyone made an overt attempt to privatize it, or attempt to implement some form of fee at the point of service there would be a large uproar over it. :yep:

[GoldenRivet]

@ Oberon

As you may or may not be aware, this year my step daughter went to the ER due to complaints of crippling back pain. as it turned out she was passing a kidney stone. She was sent home with pain management medication and antibiotics and advised to return if the pain worsened or persisted.

fast forward two days, the pain returned and was worse than the first go. She was taken back to the ER as directed and an MRI conducted. The doctors discovered that one of the kidney stones had become jammed in her left ureter just long enough to cause urine to back up into the kidney, this, combined with the irritation from the stone passage caused a kidney infection. she was admitted to the hospital here in our home town for a couple of days to manage the condition.

the stone passed, but the infection refused to relent and caused the kidney to abscess. She was transferred to a Children's Hospital about 2 hours drive from home and admitted where she remained for the next 22 days. During that time doctors determined that the offending organism was Klebsiella Bacteria and worked to save the kidney. Ultimately she needed a drain tube inserted through her abdomen into the kidney to allow the abscess fluid to exit the body (Nephrostomy) and we were advised that only a handful of antibiotics would actually work against Klebsiella Bacteria. Eventually she was sent home with a PICC line (https://www.cancer.gov/images/cdr/live/CDR756807-571.jpg) inserted into the left arm which was meant to feed the antibiotics directly into the circulatory system. This was something we were taught to do here on our own, but for the first few treatments she had a visiting nurse.

I cant complain about our insurance plan too much, we have a better plan than most, but we do pay exorbitantly for it. the final tally on her medical bills rested in the $115,000 range, of which we will be responsible for about $7,000 out of pocket.

Without putting too much of our business our there, my wife realistically only makes about $1,900 a month, her employer offered health care plan is what i would call a "Cadillac" policy. It offers a great many options and coverages. conversely, i out earn my wife many times over, but the employer offered health care plan through my employer is garbage ergo we elect to use her coverage instead of mine... which is why it gobbles up so much of her income.

My in-laws are another example. While self sufficient and proud people, they would be considered "low income" and since they are both "self employed" Obamacare was the only realistic option for them at the time of their enrollment. They couldn't go without insurance, and they certainly couldn't afford to pay the state mandated penalty for going uninsured.

Unfortunately for them, their ACA premiums have increased considerably since their initial enrollment and have expressed disappointment with the coverage compared to the cost. Im certain they are not the only folks in that boat.

I almost lean toward scrapping the ACA altogether and letting free market capitalism run with the ball, when insurers are tripping over their own asses competing for customers the premiums will invariably be reduced. besides... anyone with nary a single dime to spare cannot be turned away from medical treatment - hospitals already receive a ton of tax incentives for treatment of those who are unable to pay as is.

the bottom line is; there's only one big rock, and everyone has to get a piece of the rock. My favored politician is quite simply the one who a. gives me the most access to the rock and b. leaves my piece of the rock most unmolested. :haha:

[Platapus]

We just got the numbers for next year's health care costs from my company. Our premiums have gone down and my contribution has gone down but the plan stayed the same.

ACA works for some people at least. :)

[vienna]

@ Oberon

...

I almost lean toward scrapping the ACA altogether and letting free market capitalism run with the ball, when insurers are tripping over their own asses competing for customers the premiums will invariably be reduced. besides... anyone with nary a single dime to spare cannot be turned away from medical treatment - hospitals already receive a ton of tax incentives for treatment of those who are unable to pay as is.

...

There are a few problems with that idea. There was, for the most part, a very much free market capitalism situation in terms of health insurance and health care. The result had been the excesses of the insurance industry, and by extension, the hospital and pharmaceutical industries; the result of letting them have their own lead was ever-increasing and skyrocketing medical care and medicine prices and the exclusion of a very sizable percentage of the population due to the insurance industry's cherry-picking of clients they would accept and the restrictions placed upon those who were accepted in terms of type of care and and the extent to which the industry would cover their clients. Remember, the calls for health care reform were the result of the pretty much unfettered free market capitalism insurance/health care industry, not just a mere political whim. The medical care horror stories heard prior to the ACA were as bad, and maybe even worse, than post ACA. Also remember, taxpayers were already paying for the care of those under-insured or uninsured; many of those people could not afford preventative care and went to ERs usually when their conditions were so far advanced as to require far more extensive, and expensive, care, at taxpayer cost, than if they had been able to seek preventative care. And, speaking of ERs, the ACA has provisions penalizing ERs and hospitals who engage in a sort of "put a band-aid on gunshot wound" sort of care where they do just enough to get the patient out the door, dealing with symptoms rather than causes, resulting in the same patients having to make repeated visits to the ERs, again at a repeated cost to taxpayers. Now ERs who show excessive return visits are required to justify their decisions and are fined if it is shown they take the "easy way out" when dealing with ER patients. As someone who has made a few ER visits in recent years, I can say the thoroughness of treatment post-ACA is noticeable; the 'here's a couple of aspirin, go walk it off' attitude is fading; also, the formerly packed to the gills ER waiting rooms have thinned out very noticeably. Even the Free Clinic in my neighborhood is handling a lot less traffic. The indications are that if you deal with a health problem properly when it is relatively small and relatively inexpensive, the less likely it will have to be dealt with when it is major and very expensive...

The upper management of health care is also an issue; gone are he days when hospitals decisions were made by capable medical practitioners who had at least some empathy for the patients; now, decisions are are made by corporate bean counters who have very, very little to no concern for individual patient care and are more concerned about optimizing profits for shareholders of their corporations and in meeting targets to trigger their own bonuses and perks...

California voters, years ago, in response to skyrocketing insurance rates and hikes, gave the state insurance commissioner the authority to set ceilings for insurance rates and rate hikes for automobile insurance; insurance companies had to justify the need for rates and hikes by presenting all the evidence to justify their increases. When the law passed, the insurers stormed and bellowed, threatening to pull out of CA and never sell policies in the state again. The law went into effect and, lo and behold, the rates not only stabilized, most of them actually went down and there were even rebates. Most of this was due to the greater transparency in the rate setting process, and a lot of it was also due to something the free market didn't provide: competition. While the major companies bellowed and cursed, smaller companies were able to compete as they filled the voids left by the larger companies. Consumers had far more choices and the big companies began to relent: California is a huge consumer market and the majors could not afford to lose their shares. The experience with the auto insurance industry has led to attempts to put healthcare insurance under the same requirements, but has so far been unsuccessful; the major companies, with their lobbying clout, have thus far been able to dodge and/or suppress any effort to make them as responsible for their actions as are the auto insurers. Maybe it will change soon; the November 2016 ballot had a measure putting e-cigarettes under some of the same law as regular cigarettes and the tobacco industry spent a whopping US $71+ million dollars to defeat the measure and lost by a a result of 64% in favor of the taxation of e-cigs against 36% against; more and more it seems big money is having less and less influence, at least in some states; how this will change, now that Daddy Warbucks is in charge, remains to be seen, but he has already indicated he wants to allow some facets of the ACA to remain intact, and not just minor aspects...



<O>

[Sailor Steve]

Members are eligible for a pension at age 50 if they have completed 20 years of service, or at any age after completing 25 years of service. The amount of the pension depends on years of service and the average of the highest three years of salary.
Interesting bit of redundancy there. Since a Senator must be at least thirty years of age, after twenty years he or she will be at least fifty. You can't run for the House unless you're twenty-five, so "any age" will again be at least fifty after twenty-five years of service.

Maybe they just wanted to be extra sure...
:rotfl2:

[August]

Interesting bit of redundancy there. Since a Senator must be at least thirty years of age, after twenty years he or she will be at least fifty. You can't run for the House unless you're twenty-five, so "any age" will again be at least fifty after twenty-five years of service.

Maybe they just wanted to be extra sure...
:rotfl2:

I wonder if they credit other government or military service time towards that total?

[Oberon]

the final tally on her medical bills rested in the $115,000 range, of which we will be responsible for about $7,000 out of pocket.

Egads...well, that's one of the advantages we have here, you wouldn't have had to have paid a thing for that. That I'm aware of anyway, but the flipside is that you probably have a lot shorter waiting times for routine operations than here. However since she went through ER then I imagine they would have been fairly quick about it. I had abdomen pains about this time last year, had a horrid feeling that it was gall stones since my mother had had to have an op to remove her gall bladder the previous year and the pain I had was in the same region as the pain she had with her stones. Thankfully it turned out to have probably been trapped wind (which has no business being that painful), but for a little while the docs were unsure if it was my appendix and so I was pencilled in for a removal op which would have been done probably within 24 or so hours if we hadn't have both figured out that it was just trapped wind.
So the framework was there to get me into a quick operation as needed.
Again though, flipside, I don't live in an area which is too heavily populated and so our hospital probably isn't as overcrowded as the inner city ones.
It's all pros and cons really, I couldn't honestly stand up hand on heart and say that your daughter would have received better care in our healthcare system because I don't have the relevant data available to make that comparison, but with something like that...well, money is of a secondary concern at the time isn't it. :yep:

[Platapus]

I wonder if they credit other government or military service time towards that total?

Yes they do. Just like for every federal employee, federal service and military service do count. Double dipping regulations still apply.

[Platapus]

that he was going to "Drain the Swamp"

http://video.foxnews.com/v/5257269335001/?#sp=show-clips

The clip is fun to watch, Lots of weaseling.

So exactly what did he promise again? :doh:

[Rockin Robbins]

20-30%? What on Earth are you guys doing? :o

I don't pretend that our system is perfect but it certainly seems a lot simpler. You pay in a certain percentage of contribution each paycheck, which varies depending on your pay rate, and that is all sent to the National Insurance Fund which then helps fund the service so that it is free of charge at point of delivery.
The US health care system seems complex for no reason other than the sake of being complex. :hmmm: I just don't get it.
At 30% he's got it good. I pay 50% of my take home pay for insurance with a $3,000 deductable. Unless something just about kills me, half my income vanishes with no possible benefit. as I have to pay for the service ANYWAY.

I pay more for insurance than the combination of the highest house payment plus the highest car payment I've ever made in my life. I could drive a new Mercedes and have enough left over for gas. I'd never WANT to drive a Mercedes though....

[Oberon]

http://i.imgur.com/h68Lcf2.png

http://img.memecdn.com/what-could-possibly-go-wrong_o_5802169.jpg

[Mr Quatro]

Just like the strange weather ... the cold war is starting to heat up. :yep:

[ikalugin]

Standard nuclear modernisation, Obama began it with SSBN-X, GBSD, NGB and the B61 programs, so nothing exactly new.

UK may want to look at it's nuclear deterent - 40 RVs/SSBN and 120 total is not exactly first class nowadays.

[Oberon]

Eh, it'll do, it's not as if we'll ever use it.

[ikalugin]

Eh, it'll do, it's not as if we'll ever use it.
That kind of viewpoint undermines deterence, you know. Morever I am not sure if one could consider the UK deterent to be independently survivable.

Further offtopic - do you think that anyone would be interested if I make a separate thread about the Russian Armed Forces development.

[Oberon]

That kind of viewpoint undermines deterence, you know. Morever I am not sure if one could consider the UK deterent to be independently survivable.

Further offtopic - do you think that anyone would be interested if I make a separate thread about the Russian Armed Forces development.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyJh3qKjSMk

Go for it though. :yep:

[Onkel Neal]

That kind of viewpoint undermines deterence, you know. Morever I am not sure if one could consider the UK deterent to be independently survivable.

Further offtopic - do you think that anyone would be interested if I make a separate thread about the Russian Armed Forces development.

Do it. With our new President, we will be working closely with Russia.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Further offtopic - do you think that anyone would be interested if I make a separate thread about the Russian Armed Forces development.I would, especially if it would cover info not available in English.

[Mr Quatro]

I would, especially if it would cover info not available in English.

Why not ... nothing is too hard for translation team. :up:

Подводная лодка Армагеддон Поверхность Или мы будем раковину Вы

[eddie]

Kellyanne Conway to be named Counselor to the president. Trump picked her himself!

"Mr. Trump is deeply fond of Ms. Conway, whose job as counselor will give her frequent access to the president. "

I bet he is!:haha:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/kellyanne-conway-%e2%80%98trump-whisperer%e2%80%99-will-be-counselor-to-president/ar-BBxrxCL

[GoldenRivet]

http://i.imgur.com/h68Lcf2.png



The component here that i am in agreement with is this... whats the point of being a nuclear power if you dont use nuclear weapons?

For example, If a specific city became an ISIS stronghold, why not nuke it? seriously... why not do that?


EDIT: reminds me of this

"You watch those nature documentaries on the cable? You see the one about lions? You got this lion. He’s the king of the jungle, huge mane out to here. He’s laying under a tree, in the middle of Africa. He’s so big, it’s so hot. He doesn’t want to move. Now the little lions come, they start messing with him. Biting his tail, biting his ears. He doesn’t do anything. The lioness, she starts messing with him. Coming over, making trouble. Still nothing. Now the other animals, they notice this. They start to move in. The jackals; hyenas. They’re barking at him, laughing at him. They nip his toes, and eat the food that’s in his domain. They do this, then they get closer and closer, bolder and bolder. Till one day, that lion gets up and tears the crap out of everybody. Runs like the wind, eats everything in his path. Cause every once in a while, the lion has to show the jackals, who he is."

[ikalugin]

why not nuke it?
It would be viewed as indescriminate slaughter and maybe even genocide. But this depends on media.

[GoldenRivet]

It would be viewed as indescriminate slaughter and maybe even genocide. But this depends on media.

the USA gets enough bad press. whats the difference? i mean if 25,000 ISIS members holed up in a small town somewhere and we used the smallest yield nuclear weapon in the arsenal whats the big deal? especially if Russia was in on it somehow.

[ikalugin]

You mean like B61-12?

You would still deal with the fallout - both the nuclear and media kinds. In my opinion you can attain the same objectives (of destroying the village with all the inhabitants) using conventional munitions.

[Onkel Neal]

I agree. Send in 200 bombers with fuel-air bombs. Same results but less fallout.

[Jimbuna]

Standard nuclear modernisation, Obama began it with SSBN-X, GBSD, NGB and the B61 programs, so nothing exactly new.

UK may want to look at it's nuclear deterent - 40 RVs/SSBN and 120 total is not exactly first class nowadays.

More than enough to turn up the heat in your house if one comes calling.

It would be viewed as indescriminate slaughter and maybe even genocide. But this depends on media.

Recent events in Aleppo being a fair comparison some would have you believe.

[ikalugin]

More than enough to turn up the heat in your house if one comes calling.
The problem is nuclear stability. You only need one SSN to knock out the entire British nuclear deterent, it can be achieved in a single attack.

So you either accept limited soverenity by relying on your allies or you improve your deterent to being something more than an another division for the USN.

Recent events in Aleppo being a fair comparison some would have you believe.
Sure, some are waging a disinformation campaighn to support their agenda.

[Oberon]

http://i.imgur.com/IDtfL.gif

"We cannot sit back and allow Muslim infiltration, Muslim indoctrination, Muslim subversion and the international Muslim conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids."

[STEED]

^:har:

Your talent needs to move to the stage and night clubs. :)

[Jimbuna]

The problem is nuclear stability. You only need one SSN to knock out the entire British nuclear deterent, it can be achieved in a single attack.



On the contrary. There are four submarines with one always at sea but in times of hostility at least one more or possibly even two could be called upon.

I fail to see how one SSN could 'knock out' two or more submarines which would be located many miles apart.

[vienna]

The entangled snare that is the Trump economic empire apparently has far deeper roots and greater possibilities for very serious conflicts of interest than originally reported:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-12-22/deutsche-bank-s-reworking-a-big-trump-loan-as-inauguration-nears



<O>

[ikalugin]

On the contrary. There are four submarines with one always at sea but in times of hostility at least one more or possibly even two could be called upon.

I fail to see how one SSN could 'knock out' two or more submarines which would be located many miles apart.
It is quite simple actually.
What you do is to send one of your SSN to track the SSBN as it leaves it's base to go onto patrol. Then, after you establish the contact you launch 2-4 cruise missiles against the SSBNs in base, with 2-4 torpedoes against the SSBN on patrol or transit.

This means that a single SSN, with a single salvo (assuming that it has 8 TTs) can destroy the entire British deterent.

[Oberon]

That in turn relies heavily on a Bolt out of the blue attack (also known by the wonderful acronym of BOOB) which is not the easiest thing to achieve but Russians are very good at misdirection and surprise assaults. So it's definitely possible.

[ikalugin]

The point here is not that Russia (or any other specific adversary) can conduct such an attack, but that such an attack is possible, making British nuclear deterent vulnerable and unstable.

[Oberon]

Most of them are, to be honest, I mean I don't know if Russian SSBN doctrine has changed since the Cold War, but IIRC the old plan was a mixture of under ice ops and a bastion. That's pretty resilient, but anything coming out of the barn usually gets tagged and probably followed. Same goes for US boats. They may be quiet, but they all have to enter and exit port at some point. The key is losing the tail or preferably not getting one in the first place. I mean there's a reason that ASW vessels usually beat the waters around SSBN ports. Get the boomer out of the port and into the open sea un-molested and you've got room to play with.

Land and air based deployments are different, the US has a pretty good system with Chrome Dome, but they can be intercepted. ICBMs can be hit in the silos if you can get a missile to them before the launch order is given, or you can intercept them with ABMs, although counter-measures and counter-counter-measure systems are always being created. Does Moscow still have that excellent ring of nuclear ABMs? The Russians were very good at that back in the day.

In short, strategic surprise counts for a lot, which is why there are spy satellites all over the place and why they're generally left alone. You start taking out the enemies satellites then you reduce their early warning time, you do that and they will think that you're getting ready to strike and will strike you first.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

France:
- SSBNs
- air launched missiles (still in service?)

UK:
- SSBNs

US:
- SSBNs
- silo based ICBMs
- gravity bombs

Russia:
- SSBNs
- silo based ICBMs
- mobile ICBMs (both road and rail)
- gravity bombs
- air launched missiles (still in service?)

Russia's is most survivable in my opinion. U.S. was developing mobile system (Midgetman), but cancelled it at end of Cold War. Notable also is that many Russian land based systems still use MIRVed warheads instead of single ones as in U.S. Minuteman currently does.

[ikalugin]

You got it a bit wrong, US maintains nuclear ALCMs, we no longer have rail mobile ICBM.

About surprise attack - we have both the air defenses against a cruise missile attack for the nuclear triad bases (in the form of SAMs) and new EW means (OTH radar for detecting cruise missile attacks and low altitude stealth bombers).

While having a triad and various other measures does not make our nuclear deterent invincible - it makes it survivable enough to guarantee second strike capability. This makes it very stable.

The problem with the British deterent is the same as with the most other arms of the British military - it lacks mass to be independently viable/credible.

[STEED]

Who care what DT tweets I am more interested when he becomes President. Will he deliver his pledges to the everyday American who are fed up? Well next year he will have to put one's money where one's mouth is.

[Platapus]

Who care what DT tweets I am more interested when he becomes President. Will he deliver his pledges to the everyday American who are fed up? Well next year he will have to put one's money where one's mouth is.

Those pesky midterm elections are in two years and history has shown that the citizens are not patient. Unless the GOP shows actual benefits fast, we will have a repeat of what happened to Obama.

Promises may get you the presidency, but results get you congress.

[Oberon]

France:
- SSBNs
- air launched missiles (still in service?)

UK:
- SSBNs

US:
- SSBNs
- silo based ICBMs
- gravity bombs

Russia:
- SSBNs
- silo based ICBMs
- mobile ICBMs (both road and rail)
- gravity bombs
- air launched missiles (still in service?)

Russia's is most survivable in my opinion. U.S. was developing mobile system (Midgetman), but cancelled it at end of Cold War. Notable also is that many Russian land based systems still use MIRVed warheads instead of single ones as in U.S. Minuteman currently does.

France does still have Air launched nuclear cruise missiles with the ASMP, and will probably upgrade to the ASMP-A at some point. There's about sixty or so in service. Their missiles are also MIRV'd, as are our Tridents IIRC (well, technically they're American Tridents but British warheads), and the US still has warheads for its cruise missiles too. I must admit though that I did not know about the single warhead on the Minuteman IIIs, now that is interesting. I guess perhaps the logic is to have many missiles with single warheads (to keep under the limits of various treaties) and spread them out rather than a few missiles with multiple warheads and run the risk of them being taken out in the silo. :hmmm:

[ikalugin]

British warheads use US made critical components :)

[Mr Quatro]

Those pesky midterm elections are in two years and history has shown that the citizens are not patient. Unless the GOP shows actual benefits fast, we will have a repeat of what happened to Obama.

Promises may get you the presidency, but results get you congress.

Wise thoughts there Platapus ... it's going to be an interesting run for the money the next two years or shall we say the power curve. The republicans have hindered the democrats with Obama as the president for a long time now.

Right or wrong the only thing that can stop Trump now is a DNC House and Senate. :yep:

[Platapus]

Having the Executive and both houses of congress is a blessing and a curse

It is a blessing in that the GOP can get pretty much anything they want
The curse is that they will have no one to blame when things don't go quite as expected.

In politics it may be more advantageous to have someone to blame than to have freedom of action.

[Onkel Neal]

Soon-to-be-gone Obama waved his feeble fist at Russia again today.

We'll know this is serious when Russia shuts down the US space program.

[vienna]

No need to worry about the Ruskies shutting down NASA...

Trump and the GOP Bible-thumpers (not a rock group name) will most likely attend to that effort...



<O>

[Platapus]

No need to worry about the Ruskies shutting down NASA...

Trump and the GOP Bible-thumpers (not a rock group name) will most likely attend to that effort...



<O>

It all depends on how much Trump's businesses are involved in the space program.

If he has holdings, I am sure it will be a "national priority". If not....

[vienna]

It all depends on how much Trump's businesses are involved in the space program.

If he has holdings, I am sure it will be a "national priority". If not....

Good point. As far as I have seen, his holdings are very much in real estate and little else; however, some of the Trump cronies may have holdings that could be affected by a trimmed down NASA; then, again, if Trump does as other GOP POTUS have done in the past in order to boost economics figures and pursues increased Defense program spending, which is far more lucrative than NASA spending, and Trump or his cronies have holdings in Defense or Defense-related technologies, NASA may lose out...

The other issue is the animus with which the religious GOP Far Right holds against science in general: it's hard to sell blind faith when science inconveniently keeps finding facts. The odd thing about science, and intellectual pursuits, in general, is how whenever an extreme political or religious regime takes over a society, one of the first measures they take is the suppression, if not actual elimination, of the more open educated or scientific segments of a society; the Nazis did so in Germany and the Bolsheviks did so in the Soviet Union. Any system or regime that so fears those capable of possibly disputing or disproving the tenets of the system or regime, rests on a very slim foundation. This is why the Founding Fathers, all of whom could be deemed intellectuals, saw fit to make freedom of speech and the press as the No. 1 priority when writing the Constitution...



<O>

[Mr Quatro]

This is just an odd thought (I have a lot of those)

What if Presidet Obama is thinking of running again in four years?
Actually the race will start in 2018 just about the same time that President Obama may be thinking that the House and the Senate could be retaken by the democrat's and introduce a bill that would allow him to run for another term after he has sat one out.

Now his taunting POTUS elect Trump that he could've won in the last election (pissing off Hillary at the same time I hear) makes more sense.

Yep! I think Obama's ego is getting some play here :yep:

[Rockstar]

No need to worry about the Ruskies shutting down NASA...

Trump and the GOP Bible-thumpers (not a rock group name) will most likely attend to that effort...



<O>

I think you might want to read up on what he means by Russia shutting down the U.S. space program. Doesnt have anything to do with shutting down the Department, Trump, bible thumpers or cronies. :roll:

NASA's budget is already trimmed to the point that it must totally rely on the Russians to get U.S. astronauts into space. So, unless you are willing to invest a substantial sum of money into NASA or have the patience to wait for private enterprise to develope vehicles. The Russians being the only source of transportation for U.S. astronauts are very capable of shutting down the U.S. space program (not NASA).

[Onkel Neal]

Thank you, Rockstar. I thought my comments were fairly easy to understand, I think some people want to make everything about Trump. Same as they did with Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc.... Trump is not my guy, maybe they missed that.

[AVGWarhawk]

Soon-to-be-gone Obama waved his feeble fist at Russia again today.

We'll know this is serious when Russia shuts down the US space program.

I believe Obama is doing his best to be disruptive through the transition. Instead of sending 35 Russians home perhaps it would be best to spend time figuring out how the Russians obtained the emails and how such idiocy found within the emails can be curtailed in the future communications between DNC members.

[Platapus]

What if Presidet Obama is thinking of running again in four years?

22nd amendment :nope:

[eddie]

I believe Obama is doing his best to be disruptive through the transition. Instead of sending 35 Russians home perhaps it would be best to spend time figuring out how the Russians obtained the emails and how such idiocy found within the emails can be curtailed in the future communications between DNC members.

Maybe we should forgive the Russians and give them a big hug. I mean they are so straight forward and honest, how could we mistrust them. Putin is such a wonderful guy, just ask the folks in the Ukraine and Aleppo!! He should be up for Man of the Year!!

[ikalugin]

I believe Obama is doing his best to be disruptive through the transition. Instead of sending 35 Russians home perhaps it would be best to spend time figuring out how the Russians obtained the emails and how such idiocy found within the emails can be curtailed in the future communications between DNC members.
It would be most amusing if in a few years we would find out that the whole evill russian haxors buisness was actually a hoax by Dem party leadership.

On the topic of the space programs - US has a back up to NASA in the form of Space-X, as Space-X basically inherited NASA's know-how, tech and specialists.

[Aktungbby]

I believe Obama is doing his best to be disruptive through the transition. Instead of sending 35 Russians home perhaps it would be best to spend time figuring out how the Russians obtained the emails and how such idiocy found within the emails can be curtailed in the future communications between DNC members.

C'mon now if Obama was really being disruptive...He'd order every 'T' removed from of every government computer key-board ....the night before the inauguration!:03: If I were the president I'd close the Moscow embassy and direct all communication with the Kremlin through ... Bonny Prince Harry himself https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-964514162703162f3e0d920a0a979280-c?convert_to_webp=trueHis great-grandfather, Prince Andrew of Greece and Denmark, was a son of Grand Princess Olga Constantinovna of Russia, so Prince Harry even has a distant relation to the Romanov house. He could use a good gig! Or> https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-89a8799be81b38d0968342d8d2e5f414-c?convert_to_webp=truePrince Rostislav Romanov was born in Lake Forest, Illinois in 1985. He is one of the most active and closest to Russia Romanovs. Rostislav was the one to participate in DNA tests after the remains of the slaughtered family of Nicholas II were found; he also took part in many conferences and events as an official representative of the Romanov house. He is also the only Romanov who lives in Russia: he moved there from the USA in 2009 and is now Director of the Board of The Petrodvorets Watch Factory - Raketa, located in St. Petersburg and founded by his ancestor, Peter the Great. :salute: Even Putin allegedly has thoughts in this direction: http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/586470/Russia-royal-family-Vladimir-Putin-reinstate-Tsar-Nicholas-Second-Romanov (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/586470/Russia-royal-family-Vladimir-Putin-reinstate-Tsar-Nicholas-Second-Romanov)
The Romanov family's extraordinary return would not threaten the rule of the Kremlin strongman but would aim to give them a role in unifying Russia.
The move proposed by Vladimir Petrov, a law maker from Putin's party, has prompted speculation that it has the Russian leader's direct approval.
Petrov also plans to introduce a law, which would be implemented by the centenary of the end of Imperial rule, which would "give the Royal family members a special status" and "stimulate their return to Russia".
The legislator has written letters to the heirs of the Romanov dynasty,

[vienna]

I think you might want to read up on what he means by Russia shutting down the U.S. space program. Doesnt have anything to do with shutting down the Department, Trump, bible thumpers or cronies. :roll:

NASA's budget is already trimmed to the point that it must totally rely on the Russians to get U.S. astronauts into space. So, unless you are willing to invest a substantial sum of money into NASA or have the patience to wait for private enterprise to develope vehicles. The Russians being the only source of transportation for U.S. astronauts are very capable of shutting down the U.S. space program (not NASA).

Oh, I am very aware of what was meant by Neal's post; his comment does, indeed, have nothing to do with "the Department, Trump, bible thumpers or cronies" and I never intended my comments to so indicate. Yes, the Russkies can very easily shut down manned NASA projects simply by parking the bus. My comments are meant to address the fact past history has proven the decline of NASA is more due to domestic neglect and that much of the impetus for the woeful state of NASA has been due to the efforts of those parties who, for philosophical or fiscal reasons, have sought to, and have mainly succeeded, in paring down arguably the most productive, dollar for dollar, entity in the US...

The Far Right is already going after their usual bugaboos like Social Security (which no less a notorious Lefty than Ronald Reagan declared to have no impact on the deficit), family planning, and all the other usual suspects. I have heard, on various Right radio shows and TV broadcasts murmurings about dredging up such dead issues as school prayer, flag burning and "Under God/In Go We Trust" amendments, and there appears to be a renewing effort to launch yet another decency/anti-porn push in Congress (you would have thought the Meese Commission Report, Tipper Gore's music clean-up crusade, among others, would have been the end of that dead horse). Almost without exception, none of the proposed efforts would pass the requirements for amendments and if they did, would not pass SCOTUS Constitutional review, regardless of how stacked a bench they might seek. What the US populace must be wary of is the sideshows that spring up whenever an extreme faction of any party tries to wrest control and enact narrow partisan agendas; will we be distracted by the folderol of the Far Right while they move to do harm to the basic standards of the Constitution? Misdirection, distraction, bellicose denunciations, and more are the tolos and stock in trade of those,of any party stripe, who do not necessarily want you to know they may not be working in the general best interest. It very often is very important to pay attention to the man behind the curtain and ignore the bellowing Great Oz; if you do, you might just find the reality of your situation...

The soon to be Great And Grand Wizard is someone of whom 56% of the voters did not have the confidence enough to vote for and that is important because the popular vote is truly the will of the people: one person, one vote. The Electoral vote may be the one that matters as far as the political game is concerned, but the popular vote, particularly if it goes against an office holder, or soon to be office holder, is an ominous sign for their party and, in particular, for those all-important mid-term elections...

As a perspective, in 2012 Obama reelection effort garnered a total of 65,915 795 popular votes; by contrast, Trump garnered 62,979,879 popular votes, 2,935,916 popular votes short of Obama's 2012 total, not very much of a bell ringing achievement. No matter how you slice it, Trump is not in a position to claim high popularity or approval, much less a mandate from the people of the US...




<O>

[AVGWarhawk]

Maybe we should forgive the Russians and give them a big hug. I mean they are so straight forward and honest, how could we mistrust them. Putin is such a wonderful guy, just ask the folks in the Ukraine and Aleppo!! He should be up for Man of the Year!!

Not sure how you construed this from my post. :hmmm:

[AVGWarhawk]

It would be most amusing if in a few years we would find out that the whole evill russian haxors buisness was actually a hoax by Dem party leadership.



Well, I have not seen the evidence that Russia did anything. All I have seen is finger pointing and blame shifting for Hillary's well earned loss.

[AVGWarhawk]

[COLOR=orange]C'mon now if Obama was really being disruptive...He'd order every 'T' removed from of every government computer key-board ....the night before the inauguration!:03:

Wait until the night of the inauguration. A past president removed the W on the keyboards and some fine China from what I was told. Maybe I'm wrong.

[vienna]

Soon-to-be-gone Obama waved his feeble fist at Russia again today.

We'll know this is serious when Russia shuts down the US space program.

Thank you, Rockstar. I thought my comments were fairly easy to understand, I think some people want to make everything about Trump. Same as they did with Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc.... Trump is not my guy, maybe they missed that.

Hmm...

That Obama "Obama waved his feeble fist" line followed by "...I think some people want to make everything about Trump. Same as they did with Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc...." smacks a bit of glass houses and blackened pots... :D

I'm well aware Trump is not your guy. Neither Obama nor Trump are my guys. All I'm really hoping for is Trump not tanking the economy like Dubbya, but with all those Wall Street weasels on his team and some of the other suspect choices he"s made, it may be a long hope...



<O>

[Platapus]

Wait until the night of the inauguration. A past president removed the W on the keyboards and some fine China from what I was told. Maybe I'm wrong.

This type of childish harassment is, unfortunately, a common occurrence when there is a change in administration. Kinda silly and embarrassing when you think about it. But it seems to be a tradition for some reason.

[AVGWarhawk]

This type of childish harassment is, unfortunately, a common occurrence when there is a change in administration. Kinda silly and embarrassing when you think about it. But it seems to be a tradition for some reason.

I call it destruction of public property and theft.

[Rockin Robbins]

All I'm really hoping for is Trump not tanking the economy like Dubbya, but with all those Wall Street weasels on his team and some of the other suspect choices he"s made, it may be a long hope...



<O>
Dubbya didn't tank the economy. He was merely present while certain progressive Democrats tanked it. When they decided that home ownership was a right and required banks to make loans which couldn't be repaid, while "community organizers" like our current President shook down banks by requiring them to make large amounts of loans to unqualified applicants in order to open branches in "their" areas, then the runaway train to disaster was fully underway.

Dubbya's error was not to stop that train or even to talk about the inevitable catastrophe that was 100% guaranteed sooner rather than later. To underscore that we also failed to understand the cause, we then elected one of the community organizers to be President.

So you can blame Dubbya partly. But primary responsibility goes to Obama, Pelosi, Barney Frank and their progressive movement, along with the banks, who were promised a federal bailout when the chickens came home to roost.

As LeBron James, not known for being a white, anti-minority, antisemetic bigot, says "Nothing is given. Everything is earned. You work for what you have." It explains why giving these irresponsible people loans didn't work. They didn't work for what they had. Therefore they didn't value what they had. They didn't sacrifice to protect what they had because they weren't required to sacrifice to obtain it.

They went down. The banks, which should have been permitted to go down also, were bailed out with the money meant to bail out the people who lost what they were given to begin with.

The community organizer then fiddled (with healthcare) while the economy burned. To make the unemployment rate look good he merely took millions off the unemployment rolls and put them on the disability rolls. Then, declaring the crisis over he abandoned the economy, with 90 million people not employed, the lowest job participation ratio since just after World War II.

The worst devastated are inner city minorities, the very people Obama was elected to help. They, in exchange for their faithful votes, are 30% unemployed, even by the rigged rules which vastly understate their numbers. Crime in those inner cities is burgeoning as they lose hope that anybody cares. They've been betrayed by their own. Who can blame them?

If Trump can see the opportunity that can be realized by saving those abandoned in the inner cities, it's over for the progressive movement. But I haven't heard a word about this most important thing he could ever do since he was elected. I hope that 's just because the news media doesn't want to give him any ideas.

Nothing is given. Everything is earned. If something is given, it is lost, sooner rather than later. Opportunity is the only real help. Handouts only last until they are squandered.

[August]

It would be most amusing if in a few years we would find out that the whole evill russian haxors buisness was actually a hoax by Dem party leadership.

Wikileaks has repeatedly said the emails came from a disgruntled dem party official. Who knows maybe it's true?

[AVGWarhawk]

Wikileaks has repeatedly said the emails came from a disgruntled dem party official. Who knows maybe it's true?

At this juncture who really cares where these emails came from? Let's talk about what was contained in the emails and the true face of the DNC. What a great distraction with Russia, cloak and dagger....:doh:

[vienna]

Wikileaks has repeatedly said the emails came from a disgruntled dem party official. Who knows maybe it's true?

...and Wikileaks, and Assange, are closely linked to the Russians...



<O>

[vienna]

For those who may want to see an actual report by actual investigators instead of the faceless voices of talk radio, the talking heads of TV pundits, or the tweets galore out in the Web, here is a link to the Joint Analysis Report (JAR) issued by the Department of Homeland Security, NCCIC, and the FBI, issued Dec 29 2016, on the matter of Russian hacking and election influencing efforts. It is only 13 pages in length, so its not a hard read:

https://www.us-cert.gov/sites/default/files/publications/JAR_16-20296A_GRIZZLY%20STEPPE-2016-1229.pdf

The report mentions a Joint Statement from the Department Of Homeland Security and Office of the Director of National Intelligence on Election Security; here is a link to that memorandum;

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2016/10/07/joint-statement-department-homeland-security-and-office-director-national

It should be noted the JAR is a release of declassified information; a larger amount of data and evidence is classified and has been shared, in an appropriate manner, with appropriate agencies in the Administration and with House and Senate leadership and the Congressional members of both houses who sit on the various intelligence committees; also of note is the acceptance of the findings by the Congressional leadership and members of both parties as to the culpability of the Russians in the matter of election hacking...

The report makes for interesting reading, although I am sure there are those who will not let a little matter like facts get in the way of their dogma...


"I know no safe depositary of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power."

--Thomas Jefferson to William C. Jarvis, 1820

"Though [the people] may acquiesce, they cannot approve what they do not understand."

--Thomas Jefferson: Opinion on Apportionment Bill, 1792

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."

--Thomas Jefferson to Charles Yancey, 1816


...knowledge is power...




<O>

[ikalugin]

The thing is - I do not trust those reports at this time, as we have previous experience of such reports being falsified in the past in order to attain political ends. I would guess that this argument was already mentioned (and thus I appologise for probably over using it) but this looks like the pre-Iraq reporting or more recently US reporting on ISIS and Syrian rebel movement in general (where the reports regarding ISIS were changed in the military intel apparatus in order to suit the political needs at the time).

Regarding the reports, such as the 13 page one that you have linked, it does not have evidence regarding how they attributed the attacks. In fact the majority of that report is about how to prevent and deal with the attacks. Morever the report itself is poorly writen, as they mix the names of the actors with the software used (page 4 of the report) making me doubt the competence of it's authors and it's credibility.

I wonder if the purge of US intel comunity (especially the CIA) by Trump would change things, or if this patern of behaviour would contrinue, just with another vector.

[August]

...What a great distraction.

I think that's the idea.

[vienna]

The thing is - I do not trust those reports at this time, as we have previous experience of such reports being falsified in the past in order to attain political ends. I would guess that this argument was already mentioned (and thus I appologise for probably over using it) but this looks like the pre-Iraq reporting or more recently US reporting on ISIS and Syrian rebel movement in general (where the reports regarding ISIS were changed in the military intel apparatus in order to suit the political needs at the time).

Regarding the reports, such as the 13 page one that you have linked, it does not have evidence regarding how they attributed the attacks. In fact the majority of that report is about how to prevent and deal with the attacks. Morever the report itself is poorly writen, as they mix the names of the actors with the software used (page 4 of the report) making me doubt the competence of it's authors and it's credibility.

I wonder if the purge of US intel comunity (especially the CIA) by Trump would change things, or if this patern of behaviour would contrinue, just with another vector.

Page four is a listing of Russian Intelligence Services (RIS) alternate names; it is very likely some of the software and the agencies' alternate names are shared. There is reference to attachments in the report, CSV and XML files; these and a description of the JAR can be found at the following US-CERT link:

https://www.us-cert.gov/security-publications/GRIZZLY-STEPPE-Russian-Malicious-Cyber-Activity

The real meat and potatoes of the investigation is still classified at this point; however, the acceptance of the report and its underlying evidence by those of both political parties who have been authorized and have seen and read the full report has been overwhelming and no verifiable concrete evidence to dispute the findings have been acknowledged to have been presented either to Congress or the Administration. If there is any sloppy work, it is at the hands of the RIS who woefully failed to hide their tracks. Perhaps there has been a quiet purge in the RIS over this issue..

I don't really think an intelligence purge of any great extent is forthcoming; should the evidence be made public after a purge, the question would become "Why were the people who were right, ousted?" and "What sort of incompetency is it to blindly purge for political purposes?". The downside may be too great and the gain too little. Add to that the impression of Trump acquiescing to Putin as a reason for a purge of US Intelligence and it becomes an even stickier mess. Besides, those purged may just decide to do a little whistle blowing themselves...

The issue of election interference is beyond partisan politics; rest assured, if Clinton had been the apparent beneficiary of Russian interference, the issue would have been the same, if not louder. I tend to agree with House Speaker Ryan (GOP) who has stated action should have been taken long ago against Russian interference by the Administration and that Congress needs to do a full and complete bipartisan investigation. Trump may want to "Move on", particularly since his election already has enough taint, but there will be investigations and there will be hearings, private and public, and there is nothing Trump or his minions can do about it, legally or Constitutionally. The issue is about the very foundation of the US electoral systems and its reliability and veracity. If conducting a thorough investigation means Putin might stop sending love letters to Trump, so be it...

Incidentally, the JAR report is just a summary; a more detailed report will be issued in the coming days...



<O>

[ikalugin]

The list says "Reported Russian Military and Civilian Intelligence Services (RIS)" followed by "Alternate Names" which implies that they a) discuss RIS - actors and b) discuss the objects of the same nature - alternative names for the objects of the same nature - RIS/actors.
By naming both actors and tools they show that they either do not have the ability to write reports or that they do not know the difference between the two, for example if this part of the report was writen separately, after all the bulk of the said report is not about attibution but about prevention and other security measures.

Further you imply that:
- there is sufficient evidence in the (classified version of the) report.
- that said evidence is valid.
As we have seen previously (Iraq being the best known example but there are others) this is not nessesary the case so I would not trust the report, especially if there are simpler explanations around (ie wikileaks explanation about a whistleblower) and if the reports themselves lack data and are writen incompetently.

Regarding the purge. You assume that they are right. What if they are wrong, and the politicians in those agencies (after all the high end officers can also be political apointees) have warped the reports? Morever the purge is nessesary as not only is the intel comunity known to falsify their reports to fit a political agenda (Iraq? ISIS?) but they would also sabotage POTUS policies, much like Pentagon sabotaged the Russia-US deal over Syria.

[MaDef]

Wikileaks has repeatedly said the emails came from a disgruntled dem party official. Who knows maybe it's true?I'll put Seth Rich's name into that hat.

[Onkel Neal]

Hmm...

That Obama "Obama waved his feeble fist" line followed by "...I think some people want to make everything about Trump. Same as they did with Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc...." smacks a bit of glass houses and blackened pots... :D



Nah, a short aside about Obama does not equate to making the "Russian hack" about Obama. It's not like I spent 1000 words on the Bible-thumping GOP. :03:

But while we're on the subject of our President, it will be interesting to see if he brings his celebrated integrity to bear on the end of term Presidential pardons. He's actually been fairly heroic in this department. I'm interested to see if he upholds that stance. Or will he go out in a Bill Clintonesque splurge in clemency just before leaving office. I know there's the Hillary issue, will Obama pre-empt Trump and give her a pardon like Ford gave Nixon? And how about the Illinois gov. Blagojevich? Or that fruitcake Bradley Manning? Nah, I doubt that in his case, he is probably part of the Russian hacking machine. What do you think? Controversial pardons coming up, or not?

[August]

I'll put Seth Rich's name into that hat.

Wouldn't be the first suspicious death associated with the Clintons.

[Mr Quatro]

But while we're on the subject of our President, it will be interesting to see if he brings his celebrated integrity to bear on the end of term Presidential pardons. He's actually been fairly heroic in this department. I'm interested to see if he upholds that stance. Or will he go out in a Bill Clintonesque splurge in clemency just before leaving office. I know there's the Hillary issue, will Obama pre-empt Trump and give her a pardon like Ford gave Nixon? And how about the Illinois gov. Blagojevich? Or that fruitcake Bradley Manning? Nah, I doubt that in his case, he is probably part of the Russian hacking machine. What do you think? Controversial pardons coming up, or not?

Interesting questions, but we only have three weeks left to see. Obama has been up to something though.

I heard that he wants to empty the US Navy base in Cuba before he leaves office.

Obama is also jockeying for a DNC political future to elect the next POTUS and of course the other DNC politicians in the the US.

I wonder if he will get a home in Chicago (murder capitial of the northern US) after he leaves DC (suppose to be staying there till his daughters finish school).

Yes, the next few weeks will be fun to watch :yep:

[ikalugin]

Especially if US political establishemnt continues to make fools of themselves like with that recent story about the diplomats.

[vienna]

It seems the House GOP has moved to pre-empt the possibility of independent review and investigation of possible wrong-doing or corruption by House members...

With No Warning, House Republicans Vote to Gut Independent Ethics Office:

http://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/02/us/politics/with-no-warning-house-republicans-vote-to-hobble-independent-ethics-office.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/02/us/politics/with-no-warning-house-republicans-vote-to-hobble-independent-ethics-office.html?_r=0)

How's that whole GOP swamp draining working out, eh?...



<O>

[em2nought]

How's that whole GOP swamp draining working out, eh?...<O>

Instead of draining that swamp, we may have to keep turning the heat up until they're ALL boiling in their own excrement. :salute:

[vienna]

Apparently, it didn't take all that much heat; the House GOP members behind the idea, like roaches exposed to light, have abandoned their little foray and scattered:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/after-backlash-house-gop-backs-down-from-plan-to-gut-ethics-office-172736628.html



<O>

[Mr Quatro]

I wonder if he will get a home in Chicago (murder capitial of the northern US) after he leaves DC (suppose to be staying there till his daughters finish school).


Yes, it looks like Chicago will be in his future:http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obama-give-farewell-speech-chicago/story?id=44506776

President Obama is preparing to give his farewell speech from his home city of Chicago.

"I'll go home to Chicago to say my grateful farewell to you, even if you can't be there in person,"
he said in an email announcing the Tuesday, January 10 speech.

[August]

Interesting take on the election.

http://fredoneverything.org/uniquely-talented-only-the-democrats-could-have-lost-to-trump/

A great uproar goes forth from the enemies of the Trump Beast, with much gnashing of hair and pulling of teeth. He will be a terrible President, they say, and they may well be right. There are ominous signs, particularly as regards foreign policy, and he seems radically incoherent and contradictory. Interestingly, his critics have no slight idea why he won.
The reason is obvious: He won because everybody was campaigning for him, in particular the media, Hillary, Black Lives Matter, Obama, Democrats, and far leftists. Everybody worked for Trump. He couldn’t lose.

The election was a referendum on Marie Antoinette’s court. It was the revolt of the unnoticed downtrodden, the financially sinking, the working classes rising against privileged snots–but it was engineered by the elites. The glittering elite of course did not say “working class,” this being a loaded phrase redolent of Marxism and of the Democratic Party of five decades back before it became a royal court. They spoke instead of disgruntled white men, racists, homophobes, sexists, and the Islamonauseated–phobic, I meant.


and


The privileged worked hard for Trump. Every time they described his people as uneducated white males, implicit dregs, they drove votes to Donald. And they so described the working class unceasingly.
It made him President. Good, bad, or indifferent, it is how he got in.
The privileged denigrated all whites unlike themselves. Then Hillary made her “deplorables” speech, confirming her contempt for half of America–those uneducated, shapeless, dull-witted proles in Flyover Land, obese, farting and belching, swilling Bud, watching NASCAR for god’s sake in awful trailers. And why not not sneer at them? Why did Hillary need their votes? Did not Rachel Maddow love her?
For Trump it was gold, pure gold. If he had written her speech, he could not have come up with a better line to destroy her. It was the purest product of the establishment’s hubris. She did it to herself. Sweet.
It made him President.


I think he makes a great point. Belittling large swaths of the electorate is a recipe for political failure and the Democrats have made a habit of it in recent years.

[Platapus]

I wonder if he will get a home in Chicago (murder capitial of the northern US) after he leaves DC (suppose to be staying there till his daughters finish school).


When you are going to live in a gated community with lifetime 24/7 USSS protection, you are not all that concerned with the crimes of the common people.

[Mr Quatro]

Obama won't sign this bill, but POTUS Trump will: http://thehill.com/homenews/house/312730-house-passes-bill-to-overturn-midnight-regulations-en-masse

Legislation to allow Congress to repeal in a single vote any rule finalized in the last 60 legislative days of the Obama administration sailed through the House Wednesday, the second time in less than two months.

The GOP-backed Midnight Rule Relief Act, which passed the previous Congress in November, was approved largely along party lines by a vote of 238-184 on the second day of the new Congress, despite Democratic opposition.

If passed by the Senate and signed by President-elect Donald Trump, the legislation would amend the Congressional Review Act to allow lawmakers to bundle together multiple rules and overturn them en masse with a joint resolution of disapproval.

The White House has already threatened to veto the bill if it were to make it to President Obama's desk before he leaves office.


Lot less to worry about now ... from a King to a Jack in just two more weeks. :yep:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fpqe2vGGq4

[vienna]

Hmm...

It seems I might have missed it...

Did anyone happen to catch the revelation of evidence to refute the allegations of Russian hacking and interference Trump promised and swore to reveal on "Tuesday or Wednesday"? I man, it is now Thursday, isn't it? After all, Trump is a well known man of his word...

Maybe Trump was too busy watching RT and swooning over his latest love letter from Putin... :haha:


<O>

[ikalugin]

As far as I am aware USG did not release any evidence regarding the attribution process to back up it's claims. It appears that the FBI was peer pressured into going with that agenda driven narrative, which is really quite a shame.

[August]

For 8 years the Obama administration has ignored numerous successful hacking attempts by not only the Russians but a multitude of foreign entities against federal, state, local government agencies and many more against the private sector. Back in 2012 Mitt Romney said that the Russians might be a threat and he was mocked for it by the very same people who are now all up in arms now. I guess hindsight can be little embarrassing if it costs you your legacy huh?

I mean literally hundreds of millions of medical records, financial data and other personal information of Americans have been stolen over the past 8 years by the Russians, the Chinese, the Iranians and a host of other national and private players and they did nothing about it. Utilities have been hacked, secrets have been stolen, agencies have been breached and none of that moves the government into action. But the theft of some very damning emails from a political hack who was dumb enough to click on email links sent by unknown senders and who uses the word "password" as his password, an idiot btw who works for an even bigger idiot that thinks she could somehow safely conduct classified government business on a home brewed mail server that she rigged up in her basement, and suddenly they're expelling foreigners and launching investigations like it never has never happened before.

Could they possibly have been that appallingly incompetent to be just now discovering this kind of thing has been going on? Hard to believe but the way I see it the Democrats have no right to lecture anyone about cyber security when it's obvious they have no clue what it is themselves.

[vienna]

Gee, I sure am glad the country and its intelligence operations, after the inauguration, is going to be run by the Great Equivocator who has no trust in those same intelligence operations and its leadership and who has not only expressed a great animus towards the intelligence community, but has also publicly stated he knows more than the trained, very heavily experienced personnel and experts. It is reassuring to know we will be protected by the object of Putin's bromance...

Well, at least, Trump won"t muck about with the military and its leadership..no,...wait,... didn't Trump also declare he knew more about military matters than the generals?...

Oh, and regarding that border wall; it looks like the US taxpayers are going to get stuck for the bill:

http://www.businessinsider.com/who-will-pay-for-mexico-border-wall-us-2017-1

If anyone really believes the US will get any significant reimbursement, much less the full cost of a wall, from Mexico, I've got this bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in...

The concept of creating massively expensive projects with very little actual benefit while cutting revenues (taxes) smacks very much of the 'don"t tax but spend like crazy' ethos of the Reagan Administration which resulted in the second most severe recession in US history...



<O>

[ikalugin]

Well, how many of those likely to be purged are political apointees from the two Obama terms?

I ask this because to me it appears that the leadership of said services is made up of political apointees, not veteran career officers. If this is so, then what is bad about doing the same thing Obama did and apointing the people he could trust?

[vienna]

Those at the top are almost always there for political reasons and are swept aside when the political tide changes. They are also many times those who are there for political reasons are not career veterans; that is why they are called "political appointees", not "best candidates for the job". There are exceptions: FBI Director Comey leaps to mind; he is a life-long GOP member and was a part of the Bush administration; not the kind of person you would expect a DEM President to appoint to a crucial position, yet Obama did appoint him as FBI Director. Why? Well, he had impressive, well-known credentials and experience in the field of Federal law and had even served as Acting Attorney General when then AG Ashcroft was incapacitated; it was then Comey showed he was made of sterner stuff. When the Bush White attempted to exert undue pressure to get their way on a dubious NSA program, Comey defied Bush and refused to certify the program; the White House then tried to coerce a hospitalized AG Ashcroft, who also had concerns about the NSA project, into overriding Comey, but Comey was able to get to the hospital and give support to Ashcroft's own refusal. Comey stood his ethical and moral ground in the face of political maneuvering; if you want someone to do a task right for you, you also need someone who is morally and ethically centered enough to stand up and tell you when they think you are wrong, not some party hack "yes man". For a any President, having someone with the guts to stand up to you is someone you should want around you...

What I have seen so far in the Trump appointments is the same old signing on of party-bound healers, cronies, dogmatic self-servers, and barely qualified appointees: essentially more of the same as we have seen before, from both parties; in fact, this upcoming lot of appointees may be the most dubious since the lot that came in with the Nixon administration, and, as we know, that didn't turn out so well. If Trump is really so dedicated to, as he puts it, "drain the swamp", all he's done is stock it with more 'gators. As always with Trump, big talk, small results (you know, like his hands)...

Mention was made of career veterans. In any government, the actual work in any agency is not done by the Secretaries, Directors, or Ministers; it is done by the mainly faceless veterans who do their jobs in the background regardless of what party is in power or whoever sits in the Big Chair. When you are hearing the results of investigations into matters, it is not the guy who happens to be a buddy of POTUS or a functionary of POTUS' party who did the work, it is the men and women with the 10, 15, 20 or more years of actual field and analytical experience who did those investigations, For a surprisingly large number of them, the party or person in power is irrelevant; their tasks and duties continue on regardless of the political revolving doors. They are the real experts in their field and when I see a report, I tend to give them a bit more weight than the talking heads and spokespersons who give the summary press briefings and, I particularly give them more weight than a know-nothing, newly-minted politician who claims to know more about the functioning and responsibilities of government operations than those who have been dedicated to doing the best possible work in their fields as a life-log career. Maybe those much sought after seats in the head offices should be filled with people who have actually worked their way up to that position rather than be occupied by the political flavor of the moment; however, by and large, given his appointments so far, I don't see Trump as a 'Great Reformer' but more of the "same old business as usual". As the Great Philosopher Townshend once aptly said "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss"...




<O>

[August]

Well, how many of those likely to be purged are political apointees from the two Obama terms?

I ask this because to me it appears that the leadership of said services is made up of political apointees, not veteran career officers. If this is so, then what is bad about doing the same thing Obama did and apointing the people he could trust?

There's nothing bad about it. The Left will say anything to de-legitimatize Trump. He could personally cure cancer and they would have nothing good to say about it and neither will they about anyone Trump nominates. Too bad for them that they exercised the nuclear option to eliminate filibusters when they were in charge of Congress.

As for political appointees, most of them are purged when the White House changes hands. There are a few like the FBI director that are appointed for a set period of time (10 years I think) but rarely do they stay on through a change in administration.

[vienna]

There is a huge difference between "people you can trust" and "people you can trust and are fully qualified for the job": I trust my doctor, but I wouldn't want him or her to operate on me if he or she wasn't a certified surgeon or to diagnose and treat me for a condition outside their specialty. What happens in the case of POTUS appointments, in both parties, is akin to assigning an EMT to do neurosurgery; in either case, the results can leave the patient brain dead...



<O>

[yubba]

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/britain-has-worlds-top-economy-after-brexit-rt7j9lccb ,, see we can all learn some thing from this.

[Oberon]

No-one tell him we haven't actually left the EU yet...don't want to ruin his dream :03:

[yubba]

No-one tell him we haven't actually left the EU yet...don't want to ruin his dream :03:

Oh, I thought you were in a panic when the common folk wanted out,, what shall we do if we leave the pu.. I for one would have thought you of all people,, wouldn't want to be a subject to other peoples mental illnesses. Freedom live it love it...

[Mr Quatro]

Hmm...

It seems I might have missed it...

Did anyone happen to catch the revelation of evidence to refute the allegations of Russian hacking and interference Trump promised and swore to reveal on "Tuesday or Wednesday"? I man, it is now Thursday, isn't it? After all, Trump is a well known man of his word...

Maybe Trump was too busy watching RT and swooning over his latest love letter from Putin... :haha:


<O>

Today the intelligence community will meet in Trump Tower with POTUS elect Donald Trump ... they will play the tape of the Russians cheering the news that Donald Trump won the election and the admittance that they engineered
this final victory over their hated foe Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump will say, "What's wrong with that" :o

Seriously though why can't someone make a list of the lies the Russians have told in all of this versus the truth that the hacked emails provided?

Why did Donald win the red states and Hillary win the blue states? Was that from Russian interference?

I don't think so :oops:

[yubba]

Today the intelligence community will meet in Trump Tower with POTUS elect Donald Trump ... they will play the tape of the Russians cheering the news that Donald Trump won the election and the admittance that they engineered
this final victory over their hated foe Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump will say, "What's wrong with that" :o

Seriously though why can't someone make a list of the lies the Russians have told in all of this versus the truth that the hacked emails provided?

Why did Donald win the red states and Hillary win the blue states? Was that from Russian interference?

I don't think so :oops:

you obviously forgot this,so what happened to the best of buddies and Hillary's reset with Russia,,I know O and Hillary hosed the Russians in the Ukraine,, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JpPU-SwcbE

[Platapus]

There's nothing bad about it. The Left will say anything to de-legitimatize Trump. He could personally cure cancer and they would have nothing good to say about it and neither will they about anyone Trump nominates. Too bad for them that they exercised the nuclear option to eliminate filibusters when they were in charge of Congress.



Trump is going to spend the next four years blaming Obama for everything.. even for the stuff Obama did not do.

[yubba]

Trump is going to spend the next four years blaming Obama for everything.. even for the stuff Obama did not do.

and why not Obama blamed Bush for the last 8 years,, the question now is,, why does the mentally ill in DC want war with Russia ??? http://www.prisonplanet.com/very-powerful-people-in-the-u-s-government-want-war-this-is-their-sales-pitch.html

[yubba]

Trump is going to spend the next four years blaming Obama for everything.. even for the stuff Obama did not do.

Come to think about it Obama blamed the founding fathers..

[August]

Trump is going to spend the next four years blaming Obama for everything.. even for the stuff Obama did not do.

Maybe. It is after all what Obama did to his predecessor and he managed to get away with it for 8 whole years.

[yubba]

the DNC never turned over their servers to the FBI so how can they say the Russians hacked them,,,, http://www.prisonplanet.com/trump-questions-why-dnc-wont-allow-fbi-access-to-severs-what-is-going-on.html

[vienna]

Trump is going to spend the next four years blaming Obama for everything.. even for the stuff Obama did not do.

...and probably keep taking credit for those things Obama did right and for the fact he, Trump, is being handed a fairly good economy and far more stability than was the case in 2008...

Let's be clear here: Trump is not, by any means, the best person to hold the office of POTUS and is not, by any means, the solution to the problems faced by the US; in this past election, the US electorate was faced by a "lesser of two evils" situation in the extreme (or, as Stephen Colbert referred to the mess, "The evil of two lessers"); if you are presented with two pills to choose from, one cyanide and one strychnine, no matter what your ultimate choice, it is going to be the wrong choice for you and your situation. If Congress, and particularly the GOP members of Congress, had any sense, they would, in effect, ignore Trump and his lunacies and get down to really addressing the nations problems, not trying to score political brownie points for their parties...



<O>

[ikalugin]

Allegedly the US security services use the data from a private security company, hired by the DNC.

I can be wrong but it appears that the DNC is basically feeding the US security services whatever it wants.

[vienna]

Allegedly the US security services use the data from a private security company, hired by the DNC.

I can be wrong but it appears that the DNC is basically feeding the US security services whatever it wants.

Do you have a verifiable, legitimate cite for this information? Please share...



<O>

[ikalugin]

I use term "allegedly" for a reason, as the source is not verifiable at the moment (as I assume that you do not take sources such as Trump's tweets at face value, nor should you). Still if those allegations turn out to be true, it would be most amusing.

[Fubar2Niner]

I use term "allegedly" for a reason, as the source is not verifiable at the moment (as I assume that you do not take sources such as Trump's tweets at face value, nor should you). Still if those allegations turn out to be true, it would be most amusing.

I think that possibly the only person that takes Trumps tweets at face value is Trump, and why not, the man after all is a dipstick !

[vienna]

Just as an aside, do you have any knowledge of the Russian cyber efforts to spread disinformation and confusion by having Russians post spurious and inaccurate information to social media sites and forums on behalf of the Kremlin? Seems to have been going on for some time; here's a couple of cites:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/documents-show-how-russias-troll-army-hit-america?utm_term=.klMRPZwZl#.tfElVK9Kv

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-inside-russian-troll-house


:hmmm:...


:haha:...



<O>

[em2nought]

Trump could walk on water, and the media would report that Trump can't swim. :03:

[vienna]

Trump could walk on water, and the media would report that Trump can't swim. :03:

Well, his hair is quite likely a flotation device... :D

...not to mention his inflated ego... :D

<O>

[Fubar2Niner]

^

:har::har::har:

[yubba]

I think that possibly the only person that takes Trumps tweets at face value is Trump, and why not, the man after all is a dipstick !

Ahh hhmmm, are you worth billions,, is your other plane,, going to be Air Force One ?????

[Fubar2Niner]

Ahh hhmmm, are you worth billions,, is your other plane,, going to be Air Force One ?????

Billions, thanks to daddy. Trump has been bankcrupt more than once. Air Force One ? Is that a psuedonym for his haircut? ;)

[vienna]

Perhaps not, but I do know of a dipstick who is a billionaire and will have Air Force One; wealth and position do not void his dipstick status...

Oh, excuse me, I should be respectful... Dipstick-In-Chief... :D



<O>

[Fubar2Niner]

All hail to Dipstick-In-Cheif Soon to be Dick-Wad ;)

[vienna]

Billions, thanks to daddy. Trump has been bankcrupt more than once. Air Force One ? Is that a psuedonym for his haircut? ;)

:har::har::har::up:

You know, maybe, if the wind is right, Trump could very possibly be able to use that haircut as it catches the wind, sort of like the Flying Nun; think of the savings for the taxpayer if Trump can travel without AF1...



<O>

[ikalugin]

Just as an aside, do you have any knowledge of the Russian cyber efforts to spread disinformation and confusion by having Russians post spurious and inaccurate information to social media sites and forums on behalf of the Kremlin? Seems to have been going on for some time; here's a couple of cites:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/documents-show-how-russias-troll-army-hit-america?utm_term=.klMRPZwZl#.tfElVK9Kv

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-inside-russian-troll-house
(cut the smiles from the quote)

It has been a part of western narrative for quite some time yes, but at the same time it is mostly projection - ie Western institutions attributing Western approaches and modes of operations to Russian actors. Sometimes it becomes rather amusing when:
- a Western source.
-- uses Russian material regarding.
--- perceived (by the Russian authors) Western operations.
-- as evidence regarding Russian operations.
- in order to promote simmilar operations (against Russian and other actors) in Western institutions.

[Fubar2Niner]

:har::har::har::up:

You know, maybe, if the wind is right, Trump could very possibly be able to use that haircut as it catches the wind, sort of like the Flying Nun; think of the savings for the taxpayer if Trump can travel without AF1...



<O>


Think of the savings for everyone. after all Trump in a nuns outfit? Yeah I can see that, freakin perverted, but I can see it. Trump in a flying nuns outfit? I'd love to see that. He ain't no light weight, and we all know what goes up, must come down, and some with a bigger bump than others. Lets just hope he don't take us all with him.

[ikalugin]

https://youtu.be/e4phB-_pXDM
Meanwhile we can now get the full leaked audio. Did I get it right and did Kerry basically say that US allowed ISIS to flourish in order to harm Assad?

declaimer - the authenticity of the said audio and claims made in it is yet to be verified.

[ikalugin]

https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf
report.

[vienna]

https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf
report.

Thanks for posting; was looking forward to posting this myself, so you saved me the effort. I also wanted to post this, the "Joint Statement for the Record
to the Senate Armed Services Committee - Foreign Cyber Threats to the United States":

https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/OKSASC_SFR_UNCLASSIFIED_3JAN2016%20FINAL.pdf

This was the initial formal statement presented at the beginning of yesterday's Senate Hearings...

Thanks again... :salute:



<O>>

[vienna]

(cut the smiles from the quote)

It has been a part of western narrative for quite some time yes, but at the same time it is mostly projection - ie Western institutions attributing Western approaches and modes of operations to Russian actors. Sometimes it becomes rather amusing when:
- a Western source.
-- uses Russian material regarding.
--- perceived (by the Russian authors) Western operations.
-- as evidence regarding Russian operations.
- in order to promote simmilar operations (against Russian and other actors) in Western institutions.

So, what you're saying is only the West engages in such activities and the Kremlin is clean and pure in these matters?...

Say, how's that Kool-Aid tasting?... :haha:



<O>

[eddie]

Well Trump says the Ame4rican Taxpayer will pay for the wall first, so he can get it up faster. He'll worry about it later on how he can get Mexico to reimburse the US. Now those who voted fro him, listen up! Star digging into your wallets, because you are paying your share too!:haha: All this after he promised over an d over that Mexico would pay for the wall, and his goofy mouth piece Conway, she is running around say that he never said anything about that in the first place! Who do these clowns think they are talking too? Trump lovers!:har: When you see Trump walking around the capital or the White house, all you will hear, is "Flip-flop, Flip-flop,flip-flop!!"

[ikalugin]

So, what you're saying is only the West engages in such activities and the Kremlin is clean and pure in these matters?...

Say, how's that Kool-Aid tasting?... :haha:



<O>
I didn't say that. What I said - is that West is projectiing, ie assuming that we operate in the same way West does. And in my opinion this projection rather than real actions by Russia based actors is the cause for the current hysteria (well that and political convenience of blaming Russia for stuff).

And it is not only about cyber - as I have already mentioned Western authors take papers writen by Russian authers about Western operations... as evidence regarding Russian operations and propose West to conduct those kinds of operations more intensively. That is where that whole "hybrid warfare" nonesense came from as well.

[yubba]

The left has two options

1. take responsibility for running a poor campaign and change their corrupt behavior

2. Blame Russia,, risk WW3 and cover up their corrupt behavior.

I guess they are going with 2

[Mr Quatro]

Can you believe this ... sure you can:https://www.yahoo.com/news/obama-says-sanders-supporters-helped-undermine-obamacare-212438322.html

Obama says Sanders' supporters helped undermine Obamacare

Obama also said Liberals like former Democratic presidential candidate Senator Bernie Sanders had contributed to the program's unpopularity.

During Sanders' campaign for the presidential nomination, he proposed replacing Obamacare with a government-run single-payer health insurance system based on Medicare, the government plan for elderly and disabled Americans.

"In the 'dissatisfied' column are a whole bunch of Bernie Sanders supporters who wanted a single-payer plan," Obama said in the interview.

Obama blaming a man that might have defeated Trump if the DNC hadn't of hindered him :hmmm:

[vienna]

Let's put aside Russia, the DEMs, the GOP, the Left, the Right, and all that for the moment and let's look at the core: the US has an election system that is vulnerable and open to attack and manipulation from both inside and outside sources. This alone is a very serious matter and really requires very serious attention lest the problems should increase and worsen and whatever integrity the system has and whatever confidence the voting public has in the system is perhaps irrevocably damaged. Leading members of Congress, both House and Senate, both GOP and DEM, who have seen the classified reports and evidence, are calling for expanded hearings into the possibility of election tampering by whoever might have had reason to want to do so and this is not an unreasonable course of action. It is better to have a greater sense of certainty about the integrity how we elect our officials, and the processes used to achieve those ends, than to bicker endlessly and uselessly about petty partisan viewpoints. In the end, it didn't really matter who won the last election; regardless of whichever side won, the end resulting charges of voter fraud, tampering and/or outside influence would have been the same. It seems the only real solution is to do a thorough, comprehensive investigation of this election cycle process(es). Just get down to it, look into it all, find the facts, and, if necessary, formulate and enact suitable remedies. It really is taking more energy and effort to bicker endlessly about the unknown and uncertain than the energy and effort it would require to find the know and certain...

Here's an example of the shoe on the other foot: In the 2016 Presidential Election, Orange County, California had its election results and system challenged. Orange County is the fifth largest voting jurisdiction in the US has been a very steadfast pillar of the GOP in California, particularly the Far Right wing of the party. It is not too much to say Orange is the cornerstone of the CA-GOP. After the votes were tallied' Clinton won with 51.6% percent of the vote versus 42.9% for Trump. It was a very big surprise for a DEM candidate to have won in Orange so decisively, by a margin of 9%, but the real astonishing factor was this was the first time a DEM Presidential candidate had won in Orange since 1936, the first time in 80 years. After the results were posted, the CA-GOP went into a frenzy, leveling charges of voting irregularities, saying the DEMs had won due to unqualified DEM voters on the voter rolls and they insisted on an investigation. However, there was one major flaw to their charges: before the election, the voter rolls had been scrubbed to remove dead voters still listed as well as voters who had moved out of the jurisdiction; the County Registrar of Voters had gone so far as to purchase data from outside databases such as credit reporting services in order to more completely assure the accuracy of the scrub. The Registrar went to these extraordinary means mainly at the behest and bellicose insistence of (wait for it): the CA-GOP. In fact, the Registrar, Neal Kelly, is so highly held in esteem by his peers, he has won national honors for his efforts to ensure clean accurate elections in his county...

What we need is a definitive investigation that produces definitive answers, leading to definitive solutions. If some partisan political feelings are hurt or if some partisan political images are tarnished, then, so be it. The integrity of the election process election is too important to worry about the political impression of "de-legitimizing" some candidate or party. The US voting public deserves answers and solutions, not petty partisanship bickering going nowhere and solving nothing. Do it now, do it right, and do it fast...


<O>

[Oberon]

Do it now, do it right, and do it fast...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4

[Oberon]

Obama blaming a man that might have defeated Trump if the DNC hadn't of hindered him :hmmm:

Nah, Bernie wouldn't have stood a chance even if the DNC hadn't have hindered him. A socialist President? In America? You'd stand more of a chance seeing the Ayatollah in the White House, or Putin himself! :haha:

[yubba]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4

I love it,, when you tell criminals to investigate themselves.. Things won't get better till you start holding people to account,,.. I guess it was too little too late to flood this country with undocumented democrats they still lost over 1000 governmental seats since 2010,, the Russians aren't that good,, if the dems keep going the the way they have it will be a one party system thanks for the laughs.

[Mr Quatro]

So then in reality what the USA intelligence agencies are doing is blaming the Russian intelligence agencies for performing mind control on the voting citizen's of the United States of America. :o

Shame on them :oops:

[yubba]

Nah, Bernie wouldn't have stood a chance even if the DNC hadn't have hindered him. A socialist President? In America? You'd stand more of a chance seeing the Ayatollah in the White House, or Putin himself! :haha:


Some polls say if Trump would have ran in 2012 he would have beat Obama..

[Oberon]

Some polls say if Trump would have ran in 2012 he would have beat Obama..

Yeah, I wouldn't have been surprised. He seems the right type. Ah well, enjoy him. :up:

[Platapus]

Maybe. It is after all what Obama did to his predecessor and he managed to get away with it for 8 whole years.

Which is the same thing the Democrats said about Bush.

Both parties play the same childish games, Sadly it seems to work

[Catfish]

I can only imagine the uproar, if Hillary had won the elections, and the russian electoral influence would have shown up.
With Trump being president it seems to not matter at all.

[August]

Some polls say if Trump would have ran in 2012 he would have beat Obama..

I doubt that. Obama wasn't already disliked like Clinton. He was young, somewhat unknown and therefore didn't have all her negative baggage. Without that working for him I doubt that Trump would have looked like the better alternative.

[ikalugin]

Do it now, do it right, and do it fast
Then blaming everything on Russia, rather than say investigating activities of the DNC further, seems to be a rather unconstructive approach?

[vienna]

Nope, not saying investigate Russia. I say thoroughly investigate the hacking and the DNC, both. If the thorough investigation of the hacking leads to Russia, then so be it; if it doesn't, then we will find out who did the illegally hacking and deal with who ever it was; either way, at least we will have an answer. Really, I don't understand Trump, the GOP supporters of Trump, and Russia's objection to even a reasonably in-depth investigation. If the investigation is done and it is proven there was no Russian involvement, then Trump and Russia can play the "I told you so!" card and do their own little "superior dance" (Church Lady reference), basking in their triumph, while watching those who called for the investigation in the first place slip into an obscurity of public embarrassment and humiliation. Trump, the GOP, and Russia could only stand to gain if the investigation turns up nothing...

However, there is the old saw about they who "doth protest too much, methinks": Why, given all they could really gain from an investigatory acquittal, do they so strenuously object? It is elementary crime detection to very much suspect the motives of a suspect who does not want an investigation into their activities. Trump, the GOP, and Russia should be confident and say "Bring it on!!" and then sit back and wait for acquittal, and live high on an easy victory; but, they aren't doing anything close; instead, they behave like crooks who don't want the inspector to execute the search warrant. They rail and rant against the idea of an investigation and seem almost extremely furtive in their actions, you know, like a guilty person. What are they so desperate to hide?...

You can take the above and substitute "DNC" for "Trump, GOP, and Russia"; it is really all the same: they should both be investigated, there should be an accounting of facts, and based on the findings, whatever action, legally or administratively, is deemed necessary, should be taken. I there is nothing hiding in the darkness, then there no need to fear turning on the lights...



<O>

[ikalugin]

You can't prove innocense hence why the presumtion of innocense exists.

The problem people have with the current investigation is that it appears to be driven by a political agenda - to de-legitimize Trump and to slander Russia.


You can take the above and substitute "DNC" for "Trump, GOP, and Russia"; it is really all the same: they should both be investigated, there should be an accounting of facts, and based on the findings, whatever action, legally or administratively, is deemed necessary, should be taken. I there is nothing hiding in the darkness, then there no need to fear turning on the lights...
The difference in our points of view is that you assume that the investigation is not politically driven and seeks to find the truth. If that is so then sure, US public would benefit from it, but I doubt that this is the case.

[yubba]

You can't prove innocense hence why the presumtion of innocense exists.

The problem people have with the current investigation is that it appears to be driven by a political agenda - to de-legitimize Trump and to slander Russia.



The difference in our points of view is that you assume that the investigation is not politically driven and seeks to find the truth. If that is so then sure, US public would benefit from it, but I doubt that this is the case.

If Russia did hack us,, they did us a favor,, by shinning the light on the corruption and hyprocracy of the left, which the state run media won't report on, they think if they tell the same lie over and over it will become truth.., I have made some good friends over the years from Russia,, through working the Docks and online flying of IL-2,, I try to re-ensure them that the vast majority of us Americans do not want conflict with Russia,,in which I'm trying to convey to you now, our government officials have forgotten their place,, they think of themselves as kings and queens instead of servants to the We The People ,they have forgotten their oath, and, they have corrrupted them selves on both sides of the isle with greed and the lust for power and they will do anything to hold on to it even if it means WW3, we do live in some dangerous times, the reason that it seems the whole of Europe and America is against you it is because Russia woundn't go along with the new world order scheme which I believe to be islamic based, just look at what is going on in europe it is nothing short of an invasion.. Your Friend Yubba

[August]

Check out the medals and badges this American earned in WW2. ikalugin might recognize some of them.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/797662-2/joseph+beyrle_2

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/featured/incredible-story-joseph-beyrle-american-fight-u-s-russian-army-wwii.html/2

We manage to get along well enough when there is a common enemy to defeat.

[yubba]

What's too happen to the Muslim Brotherhood folks holding high places in the U.S government after Trump places his hand on the Bible I know unemployment will magically jump to 25% over night ???

[eddie]

Probably join the stupid militia groups you and other so called patriots belong too,lol

[yubba]

Probably join the stupid militia groups you and other so called patriots belong too,lol,,,

now that's funny that now that the boot is on the other foot,, I might know some group that might take you,, like the UN, or any anti gun group, if you want to take this country and my freedom,, I guess you consider your self a so called revolutionary,,, to what may I ask...after 8 years none on the left wanted to admit where we were headin.. I don't belong to groups I can do enough damage on my own if I chose to do so,, I believe in our system of laws,and the Constitution that I swore to protect,, may be you should stand for something instead of falling for every shiney thing,,... USMC 2nd FSSG 8th ENG Support BN ,, Support Company.,,and all these nice places that have combat sims. Who says there wasn't combat engineers in the Corps..

[Oberon]

Yup, don't you know that on 20th January Obama is going to declare the Republican party outlawed and send the UN in to arrest every Republican in the US, then herd you all into the FEMA death camps where his specially trained dentists will...drill? I don't know, I never understood that stupid conspiracy theory anyway.

But yes, just watch, we're under every bed, behind every lamp-post...you thought that McCarthy got us all, but he didn't, and when you least expect it, we will take all your guns away and melt them down into one giant statue of Osama Bin Laden which will become US president for life.


(I think I covered all the bases there, anyone feel free to add anything I've forgotten)

[mapuc]

Yup, don't you know that on 20th January Obama is going to declare the Republican party outlawed and send the UN in to arrest every Republican in the US, then herd you all into the FEMA death camps where his specially trained dentists will...drill? I don't know, I never understood that stupid conspiracy theory anyway.

But yes, just watch, we're under every bed, behind every lamp-post...you thought that McCarthy got us all, but he didn't, and when you least expect it, we will take all your guns away and melt them down into one giant statue of Osama Bin Laden which will become US president for life.


(I think I covered all the bases there, anyone feel free to add anything I've forgotten)

I have only three words to say when it comes to conspiracy

"Sow a seed" as you have done and see it grow into a tree of conspiracies.

Markus

[Mr Quatro]

(I think I covered all the bases there, anyone feel free to add anything I've forgotten)

Biden's going to take Trump out behind he barn and show him how to grow up ... the cow is going to kick over the lamp in the fracas and burn the White house down to the ground :o:yep::up:

[em2nought]

Biden's going to take Trump out behind he barn and show him how to grow up ... the cow is going to kick over the lamp in the fracas and burn the White house down to the ground :o:yep::up:

No one will be able to whine about it being built by slaves this go round at least. :03:

[August]

Hillary Clinton may be running for Mayor of New York.

http://www.businessinsider.com/r-hillary-clinton-for-nyc-mayor-probably-not-but-rumors-persist-2017-1

[Cybermat47]

Yup, don't you know that on 20th January Obama is going to declare the Republican party outlawed and send the UN in to arrest every Republican in the US, then herd you all into the FEMA death camps where his specially trained dentists will...drill?

http://oi61.tinypic.com/2ikayix.jpg

Hillary Clinton may be running for Mayor of New York.

http://www.businessinsider.com/r-hillary-clinton-for-nyc-mayor-probably-not-but-rumors-persist-2017-1

It wouldn't surprise me. Maybe as an Australian I'm not qualified to judge, but Mrs. Clinton has always seemed power-hungry to me.

[Oberon]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1q8OgMVQAAi5uc.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1q8OgNUcAEB5nA.jpg

https://media.giphy.com/media/zUbV3MbqakK3e/giphy.gif

[August]

Democrat operatives posing as Trump voters. Nobody but them and foreigners care a bit about the Presidents tweets.

[Oberon]

Democrat operatives posing as Trump voters. Nobody but them and foreigners care a bit about the Presidents tweets.

Of course, that's the only explanation it can be. :yep:

[yubba]

2 weeks,, lefties,, either go long or go home.. Have a good time with the million or so Bikers that will be in DC for Trumps swearing in,, as soon as Trumps hand touches that Bible,,, and if you choose not to get with the program and act like Americans you'll be labeled domestic terrorist just like you did to me and other fellow Americans like me, see elections do have consequences you should have put up a better canidate, I suppose you have the right to rebel and do what you think is right, but you also have to the right to a speedy trial and a good hangin depending on the severatity of your Treason.

[August]

Of course, that's the only explanation it can be. :yep:

I'm just giving you the perspective from deep blue Massachusetts. Feel free to believe whatever you want.

[Oberon]

you also have to the right to a speedy trial and a good hangin depending on the severatity of your Treason.

'You're either with us or you're with the enemy.'

Beautiful stuff yubba, will you be attending the lynchings personally or will you wait for the highlights on Brietbart?

[mapuc]

On H2(More to History) there's a series "How States got their shapes" Today I saw 1/3 of this episode It was about Washington DC

What catch my ears and eyes was that the habitants in that state doesn't have the right to vote.

This was new to me, I thought that every American citizens in and outside USA had the right to vote in the American Presidential or other referendum.

Markus

[Buddahaid]

2 weeks,, lefties,, either go long or go home.. Have a good time with the million or so Bikers that will be in DC for Trumps swearing in,, as soon as Trumps hand touches that Bible,,, and if you choose not to get with the program and act like Americans you'll be labeled domestic terrorist just like you did to me and other fellow Americans like me, see elections do have consequences you should have put up a better canidate, I suppose you have the right to rebel and do what you think is right, but you also have to the right to a speedy trial and a good hangin depending on the severatity of your Treason.

Did you escape again? Please don't forget your pills this time but I think it's already too ate.

http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab123/Tarponmike1/padded-cell.jpg

[Oberon]

They walk amongst us!


Meanwhile, more Democrat spies and furreners:
http://www.areyousorryyet.com/

[yubba]

'You're either with us or you're with the enemy.'

Beautiful stuff yubba, will you be attending the lynchings personally or will you wait for the highlights on Brietbart?

I bet that's how some of the Folks in England feel,, Lynching is pretty much what the democrats KKK brothern did in the past, they are so desperate to change their history, and it probably won't be long till you folks have public stonings there in Piccadilly Square, will you be attending or will you get the highlights on BBC..., I did say a speedy trial I should have added fare but I wanted to see who'd be the first to take it out of context, we do have a winner,, I remember putting up pictures of communist nazis,, and islamist executing people the moderaters got all upset,,, did those folk get their day in court ???? Yes I can see how the Law and a law abiding people look extreme to criminals.

[yubba]

Did you escape again? Please don't forget your pills this time but I think it's already too ate.

http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab123/Tarponmike1/padded-cell.jpg

you got some,,, you must have some pretty good stuff to deny the last 8 years be a bro and share...

[Sailor Steve]

On H2(More to History) there's a series "How States got their shapes" Today I saw 1/3 of this episode It was about Washington DC

What catch my ears and eyes was that the habitants in that state doesn't have the right to vote.

This was new to me, I thought that every American citizens in and outside USA had the right to vote in the American Presidential or other referendum.

Markus
They may have got it wrong, or you may have misunderstood. What the District of Columbia does not have is representation in Congress. The reason is that after having met in various locations under the Articles of Confederation, the new government under the Constitution decided they didn't want the National Capital to be in any state, so no state could have the bragging rights over all the others. Maryland and Virginia donated land to make the new Capital a giant diamond. Eventually only the northern (Maryland) side was used. Since the District is not part of any state, it doesn't have senators or congressmen.

For a long time the residents of DC could not vote for President. Originally this was because the Constitution specifies that it is the States who vote for President, not the People. The State Legislatures appointed the electors, in any manner they chose. With more and more States having their citizens voting for the electors, it was decided that the citizens of DC should not be excluded, and in 1961 the 23rd Amendment gave DC three Electoral Votes.

Citizens of the District of Columbia have a delegate to the Congress. Though he cannot vote in final lawmaking he can vote on what bills are to be admitted for consideration. They have no Senator, but they do vote for President.

[Oberon]

I bet that's how some of the Folks in England feel,, Lynching is pretty much what the democrats KKK brothern did in the past, they are so desperate to change their history, and it probably won't be long till you folks have public stonings there in Piccadilly Square, will you be attending or will you get the highlights on BBC..., I did say a speedy trial I should have added fare but I wanted to see who'd be the first to take it out of context, we do have a winner,, I remember putting up pictures of communist nazis,, and islamist executing people the moderaters got all upset,,, did those folk get their day in court ???? Yes I can see how the Law and a law abiding people look extreme to criminals.

Absolutely brother, In'shallah we will bring the liberal commuslim empire to you all. :yeah: You will all submit to Comrade Allah. :yep:

[MaDef]

On H2(More to History) there's a series "How States got their shapes" Today I saw 1/3 of this episode It was about Washington DC

What catch my ears and eyes was that the habitants in that state doesn't have the right to vote.

This was new to me, I thought that every American citizens in and outside USA had the right to vote in the American Presidential or other referendum.

Markus
Residents in the District of Colombia do have the right to vote in presidential
elections. They obtained it in 1961, however they don't have representation in congress because the Sole purpose of the District of Colombia is to be the Capitol, it has no other purpose.

[August]

On H2(More to History) there's a series "How States got their shapes" Today I saw 1/3 of this episode It was about Washington DC

What catch my ears and eyes was that the habitants in that state doesn't have the right to vote.

This was new to me, I thought that every American citizens in and outside USA had the right to vote in the American Presidential or other referendum.

Markus

Actually Washington DC isn't a state, it's just a District and they do have the right to vote in Presidential elections although they don't have Senators and Congressmen to represent them. In this they join territories such as Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, American Samoa and a bunch of other small territorial possessions.

Referendums are created by the local state or territorial government and as such are specific to that body. I've never seen a ballot question that was on the ballot in all 50 states.

[AVGWarhawk]

Taxation without representation as it states on DC license plates. The folks in DC have been fighting that for decades.

[Mr Quatro]

Hillary Clinton may be running for Mayor of New York.

http://www.businessinsider.com/r-hillary-clinton-for-nyc-mayor-probably-not-but-rumors-persist-2017-1

What would it look like if she lost?:oops:

[August]

What would it look like if she lost?:oops:

That's a good point. She'd be running the risk of becoming a failure cliche' if she lost that one too.

[mapuc]

Thank you, Sailor Steve, MaDef and August for helping me understand what I misunderstood in todays episode of How States got their Shapes.

Markus

[vienna]

I do hope they have fire extinguishers at the Inauguration at the ready in the event Trump's hand should burst into flames when he puts it on the Bible... :haha:



<O>

[Aktungbby]

I do hope they have fire extinguishers at the Inauguration at the ready in the event Trump's hand should burst into flames when he puts it on the Bible... :haha:



<O>

ESPECIALLY IF IT"S OPEN TO REVELATIONS 13:15-18 https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/The_number_of_the_beast_is_666_Philadelphia%2C_Ros enbach_Museum_and_Library.jpg/800px-The_number_of_the_beast_is_666_Philadelphia%2C_Ros enbach_Museum_and_Library.jpg:shucks:

[vienna]

It could explain whats hiding beneath that funny haircut and, maybe his tiny hooves...er, ah...hands...



<O>

[Catfish]

Absolutely brother, In'shallah we will bring the liberal commuslim empire to you all. :yeah: You will all submit to Comrade Allah. :yep:

No it is the liberal commuslim nazi empire, because the Nazis were and are politically left, as the "rightists" tell us. I also like the use of "nazi" or "left" or "liberal" for anything someone doesn't like, execept when you like to be politically incorrect. Then being a nazi and hating foreigners is of course perfectly ok and so hip :hmmm: :haha:

[ikalugin]

Well I guess the discussion has sort of reduced itself, so it is time for memes:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1yglUHXAAArN6X.jpg

[August]

No it is the liberal commuslim nazi empire, because the Nazis were and are politically left, as the "rightists" tell us. I also like the use of "nazi" or "left" or "liberal" for anything someone doesn't like, execept when you like to be politically incorrect. Then being a nazi and hating foreigners is of course perfectly ok and so hip :hmmm: :haha:

Nothing hip about it and not very accurate. Hating foreigners is a time honored tradition that precedes the nazis by a few millennia and it's the leftists who tend to accuse everyone they don't like of being nazis not the right.

[Catfish]

Nothing hip about it and not very accurate. Hating foreigners is a time honored tradition that precedes the nazis by a few millennia and it's the leftists who tend to accuse everyone they don't like of being nazis not the right.

I could say touché and let it stand, but i do not entirely agree.
You are right, xenophobia precedes our recent accomplishments (ahem) for a long time. And "leftists" cry out wolf (or nazi) a bit too often, even for my taste.

But our (not limited to the US) problem is that there is a new trend of publicly criticizing democracy, diplomacy, international treaties and communities, making fun of disabled persons, foreigners, and of 'political correctness' (in lacking a better word for a level-headed, neutral point of view), because the social standard of getting along together is now being regarded as "weak" and "for pussies".

And it is not Trump alone in what Mrs. Streep recently mentioned (well she's an actress of course :03:) but it is also Romania, Poland, Hungary, Turkey, Austria, Germany and England in which the populistic and despising attitude towards international community, science and those foreigners is celebrating a new peak.

As long as politicians or the media have a level-headed attitude and are not easily alienated by a few muddleheads, the people usually behave like that themselves. But when certain views are suddenly spread publicly and e.g. Facebook becomes the soapbox, all those usually silent folks seem to suddenly come out of their hiding. From Farage to Erdoghan, the being thought long-dead chauvinism raises its ugly head once more.

If some bigmouth becomes the paragon of modern "freedom of expression", which is understood to be the same as "telling lies without fearing consequences", or publicly denigrating certain ethnic groups and foreigners, a lot of people will follow this shining example, for a good part because it appeals to their base motives and feeling encouraged to give in to them.
All education will be forgotten when being able to be "politically incorrect", which is nothing else than good old nationalism.

[Mr Quatro]

I do hope they have fire extinguishers at the Inauguration at the ready in the event Trump's hand should burst into flames when he puts it on the Bible... :haha:
<O>

[The_number_of_the_beast_is_666_Philadelphia%2C_Ros enbach_Museum_and_Library.jpg[/IMG]:shucks:[/COLOR]

It could explain whats hiding beneath that funny haircut and, maybe his tiny hooves...er, ah...hands...
<O>

Give the man a break ... all your doing is blessing him

St Matthew 5:11
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

[Oberon]

http://i2.cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/150926072348-donald-trump-bible-values-voters-00001206-large-169.jpg

"The bible, completely overrated, I prefer sons of God that don't get crucified, that Jesus guy, low power...sad. Now that Lucifer, dangerous guy, wants to rule the Kingdom of Heaven, ain't gonna happen. I think we could sit down over a hamburger, you know...but Satan, he has great control over Hell, whether you like him or don't like him, he's doing a great job in building the image of Hell, he has big plans and I can't believe God is letting him get away with it. I have people, that have been studying the Old Testament and they cannot believe what they're finding. I would like to have God show his ten commandments, and can I be honest with you, I hope he can because if he can't, if he never spoke to Moses on the mountain, which is a real possibility, then he has pulled one of the biggest cons in the history of religion."

[Rockstar]

Well I guess the discussion has sort of reduced itself, so it is time for memes:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1yglUHXAAArN6X.jpg


:har::har::har:

[AVGWarhawk]

I do hope they have fire extinguishers at the Inauguration at the ready in the event Trump's hand should burst into flames when he puts it on the Bible... :haha:



<O>

The Good Book could have burst into flames under the many hands that came before Trump. Trump is just a special kind of odd ball.

[Sailor Steve]

A lot of people don't know that there is nothing in the Constitution that mentions placing a hand on a Bible or any other book, and the phrase "...so help me God." is likewise not mentioned anywhere as part of the process.

Also, there is nothing in the Constitution that specifies who is to administer the oath, and several presidents have been sworn in by other than the Supreme Court's Chief Justice. Calvin Coolidge was sworn in by his own father, a notary public.

[August]

The Good Book could have burst into flames under the many hands that came before Trump. Trump is just a special kind of odd ball.


Bill Clinton just made it a little sticky... :)

[Jimbuna]

Bill Clinton just made it a little sticky... :)

:o

:hmmm:

:haha:

[Bilge_Rat]

Interesting, a majority of americans in a poll believe american intelligence agencies have a political agenda:

The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone and online survey finds that 47% of Likely U.S. Voters believe America’s intelligence agencies have their own political agenda. Thirty-nine percent (39%) disagree and think they generally perform impartially. Fifteen percent (15%) are undecided.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/january_2017/voters_think_u_s_intelligence_agencies_play_politi cs

shocking! :haha:

[August]

Interesting, a majority of americans in a poll believe american intelligence agencies have a political agenda:

The Dems used to be the biggest critics of the CIA. Now they've become it's biggest defenders but that won't last. I think just as soon as they can't make any more political mileage they'll go back to hating them.

[Mr Quatro]

Interesting, a majority of americans in a poll believe american intelligence agencies have a political agenda:



http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/january_2017/voters_think_u_s_intelligence_agencies_play_politi cs

shocking! :haha:

You have to think something :D

even commies have to think something, but the real trick is to know how get around the point of the subject that your captain or immediate superior is trying to get you to answer and still satisfy the questioner.

A real art is to know what they want you to think and to think that in order to keep or up grade your pay grade level.

It's called being two faced :yep:

[AVGWarhawk]

Bill Clinton just made it a little sticky... :)

As well as a dress and more then likely the carpet, resolute desk, the Lincoln bedroom(Markie Post) and I'm sure other noted pieces of historic White House furniture.

[vienna]

http://i2.cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/150926072348-donald-trump-bible-values-voters-00001206-large-169.jpg

"The bible, completely overrated, I prefer sons of God that don't get crucified, that Jesus guy, low power...sad. Now that Lucifer, dangerous guy, wants to rule the Kingdom of Heaven, ain't gonna happen. I think we could sit down over a hamburger, you know...but Satan, he has great control over Hell, whether you like him or don't like him, he's doing a great job in building the image of Hell, he has big plans and I can't believe God is letting him get away with it. I have people, that have been studying the Old Testament and they cannot believe what they're finding. I would like to have God show his ten commandments, and can I be honest with you, I hope he can because if he can't, if he never spoke to Moses on the mountain, which is a real possibility, then he has pulled one of the biggest cons in the history of religion."

So, I see you finally decided to take the job of Trump's main speechwriter... :haha:



<O>

[mapuc]

According to some USA-expert on American politics Obama scored high points on domestic politics while he scored low on foreign policy

Were they correct, those expert ? Do you American think Obama did a great job as a President when it comes to domestic politics and do you think he did a bad job regarding foreign policy ?

Markus

[August]

More people out of work or underemployed, medical costs, insurance rates and student loan debt skyrocketing, increased racial tensions, our government woefully unable to safeguard it's citizens personal data. I just don't see how that earns a high score.

[Oberon]

So, I see you finally decided to take the job of Trump's main speechwriter... :haha:



<O>

Well, I didn't want to, but then my local Imam said I should so, by Allahs will I shall.

Anyway...I wonder if it will....rain...on the 20th... :03::03::03::03: :har::har::har::har:

[yubba]

Well it seems the Democrats are more mad and freaked out,, than when Lincoln freed the slaves,, maybe more so, than King what's his face of England was when his troops had to retreat from America twice,,, ...Less than 10 days,do make us proud,,I could use a good laugh..

[Oberon]

Well it seems the Democrats are more mad and freaked out,, than when Lincoln freed the slaves,, maybe more so, than King what's his face of England was when his troops had to retreat from America twice,,, ...Less than 10 days,do make us proud,,I could use a good laugh..

Are you taking the piss? :haha:

[Onkel Neal]

http://i2.cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/150926072348-donald-trump-bible-values-voters-00001206-large-169.jpg

"The bible, completely overrated, I prefer sons of God that don't get crucified, that Jesus guy, low power...sad. Now that Lucifer, dangerous guy, wants to rule the Kingdom of Heaven, ain't gonna happen. I think we could sit down over a hamburger, you know...but Satan, he has great control over Hell, whether you like him or don't like him, he's doing a great job in building the image of Hell, he has big plans and I can't believe God is letting him get away with it. I have people, that have been studying the Old Testament and they cannot believe what they're finding. I would like to have God show his ten commandments, and can I be honest with you, I hope he can because if he can't, if he never spoke to Moses on the mountain, which is a real possibility, then he has pulled one of the biggest cons in the history of religion."

:haha::haha::haha:

In the BOS17 hopper already :up:

[ikalugin]

-getting his tinfoil hat on-

Did anyone notice DARPA work on bioweps?

[mapuc]

The latest couple of weeks the News agencies here in Denmark have said it's important to investigate a news before printing it, this after many fake news during the election in USA

Today the news in Denmark is filled with this story of Trumps adventure in a hotel room- Seems like they had forgot their own promises about controlling a source of news.

I guess even you have heard about this adventure The President suppose to have made some years ago.

If it's true or what I can't say ´cause there is much I don't know about this story, this is what I know for sure

If a person is against Trump-This person will take the story for God's truth
If a person is supporting Trump-This person will say it's a big lie.

Markus

[AVGWarhawk]

More people out of work or underemployed, medical costs, insurance rates and student loan debt skyrocketing, increased racial tensions, our government woefully unable to safeguard it's citizens personal data. I just don't see how that earns a high score.

Nailed it... Must be something in the Kool Aid.

[Mr Quatro]

Anyway...I wonder if it will....rain...on the 20th... :03::03::03::03: :har::har::har::har:

http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/washington-dc/20006/daily-weather-forecast/327659?day=10

Nope, but I wonder if Trump will get out of his car and walk with his wife like I saw Obama do one time?

60° /37°F
Sun, then clouds; not as cool

[eddie]

More people out of work or underemployed, medical costs, insurance rates and student loan debt skyrocketing, increased racial tensions, our government woefully unable to safeguard it's citizens personal data. I just don't see how that earns a high score.

Why don't you talk to your Republican controlled Congress about that. Like they would give a crap!

[Oberon]

http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/washington-dc/20006/daily-weather-forecast/327659?day=10

Nope, but I wonder if Trump will get out of his car and walk with his wife like I saw Obama do one time?

60° /37°F
Sun, then clouds; not as cool

No chance of showers then? :O:

[Catfish]

No chance of showers then? :O:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nZW7e46sfA

[vienna]

Well, I didn't want to, but then my local Imam said I should so, by Allahs will I shall.

Anyway...I wonder if it will....rain...on the 20th... :03::03::03::03: :har::har::har::har:

What sort of rain were you thinking about: fire, brimstone, frogs, locusts, Bandini...?...


<O>

[vienna]

More people out of work or underemployed, medical costs, insurance rates and student loan debt skyrocketing, increased racial tensions, our government woefully unable to safeguard it's citizens personal data. I just don't see how that earns a high score.

Yeah, it's really glaringly obvious how much worse off the US and its citizens are today in 2017 than when the previous President and his Administration left office in 2008; oh, how we wish for those good old days! Well, at least you have a real good shot at a return to those halcyon days now that Donald Dump..er, ah,..Trump is holding the reins...



<O>

[ikalugin]

https://youtu.be/8FkHSi5gMQo
Trump's press conference.

[AVGWarhawk]

Much different new conference than we have seen from past presidents. Personally I like that Trump does not stand for the media nonsense. It will come back to haunt him certainly but it will be fun to watch!

[ikalugin]

What is it with Trump and Japan?

[Platapus]

According to some USA-expert on American politics Obama scored high points on domestic politics while he scored low on foreign policy

Were they correct, those expert ? Do you American think Obama did a great job as a President when it comes to domestic politics and do you think he did a bad job regarding foreign policy ?

Markus


It depends on whether you want to make Obama look good or bad. It can be spun both ways. The reality is that few effects on the US are solely caused by one and only one person. We have state governments and a federal congress that handle most of the domestic issues.

Here is a breakdown you can print out

1 You like the president
1.1 Anything good that happens in the country is due to the president
1.2 Anything bad that happens in the country is due to someone else other than the president.

2. You don't like the president
2.1 Anything good that happened in the country is due to someone else in spite of the president's actions/inactions
2.2 Anything bad that happened in the country is due to the president

It really does not matter if the president has the capability of affecting these outcomes. That's not part of the political equation.

Which is why many online (and RL) political arguments alternate between either the president is responsible or congress is responsible, depending on which interpretation helps the person's argument.

The reality is that the government, as a whole, at both the federal and state level affect changes in the nation. But it is easier and more satisfying to point the blame at one single person (or congress) depending on whose side you are on.

It is also true that actions/inactions on the part of former congresses and presidents can have a delayed effect on the current state of the nation. This can also be used to your advantage with the current administrations/congress.

Don't like the president and don't like the congress? not a problem

Anything good that happens was due to the actions of the past (liked) administration/congress it is just that this current (disliked) administration/congress is "taking the credit".

The converse is can also be used. If you disliked the past president/congress anything bad that happened during the current (liked) president/congress can be blamed on the past and the current president/congress is just taking the fall for what was done in the past.

That's the beauty of it. No matter who I like or what happened, I can easily rearrange causalities to make "my guy" look good and "your" guy look bad.

And that's how political arguments work in the US. :03:

[vienna]

Once again...

Platapus for President!...



<O>

[mapuc]

^ Thank you Platapus for this in deep explanation about former President Obama's time as President.

I Remember he scored 57 percentage on domestic politics I didn't get how much he scored on foreign policy.

I can say by reading your answer-that you could have written about the government and/or politics in Denmark and Sweden, ´cause it's the same here and I'm pretty sure it's the same in England and Germany in fact in the entire world.

Markus

[Platapus]

Once again...

Platapus for President!...



<O>

I just calls em as I sees em. :Kaleun_Cheers:

[Mr Quatro]

It depends on whether you want to make Obama look good or bad. It can be spun both ways.


Obama's farewell speech lasted 4 times longer than all of the other last five presidents leaving office.

Obama mentioned his name 75 times last night ... a little ego on the way out. :yep:

[Oberon]

What sort of rain were you thinking about: fire, brimstone, frogs, locusts, Bandini...?...


<O>

I dunno...something fitting for the occasion, something spectacular and auspicious...something...golden :yep:

[vienna]

Obama's farewell speech lasted 4 times longer than all of the other last five presidents leaving office.

Obama mentioned his name 75 times last night ... a little ego on the way out. :yep:

Apparently whoever or whatever source you're using, if you used any at all, is guilty of some serious lying. I wondered about the claim you posted and decided to do a fact check before this response. Here is a link to the unedited transcript of Obama's Farewell Address:

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol-obama-farewell-speech-transcript-20170110-story.html

I didn't find a single self-reference, by name, in the entire speech. I even used the "Find" function to see if my eyes might be deceiving me. The result: "Phrase not found". Perhaps there is a secret code in the speech that we, who only understand plain English and, for those who actually listened to the speech, know what we heard, are not made privy. Perhaps you could enlighten us...

Maybe consideration should be made to double-checking a source before accepting their statements as the whole truth. Sometimes, if you get lied to, the ultimate fault one's own for not having the initiative or wisdom to be sure of the facts. It is very often this sort of "statement of 'fact'" that becomes the sort of apocryphal fodder those of all stripes of politics try to sell to those who are of less discretion of truth, with often harmful results. Just because a person has a talk radio show doesn't mean everything they say is Gospel...

As far as the length of the speech, yes, it was longer than the others. But most Presidential Farewells are delivered in DC and are mainly geared towards the Presidents colleagues and staff and not so much to the general public. This is a unique situation in that this is the first African-American (actually the first president of any color other than white) and his election, regardless of how one feels about his policies and tenure, is a historic first. If he takes a little longer than most to address his terms in office, then there really is no harm and no foul. Also, consider no matter what he said or how long he took to say it, there are those who would criticize and nit-pick just for the sake of their own agendas. Again, consider the source...

Here is a link to an article on Presidential Farewells and their length:

http://freebeacon.com/politics/obama-speech-22-min-30-sec-longer-closest-farewell-address/

When all is considered, very, very few people ever really recall or pay attention to Presidential Farewells, other than, maybe, George Washington's. I myself can only recall one famous quote from a Presidential Farewell:

"Therefore, I shall resign the Presidency effective at noon tomorrow."

-Richard M. Nixon, 1974

Now that was a farewell I paid attention to and was glad to hear... :haha:



<O>

[August]

Obama's farewell speech lasted 4 times longer than all of the other last five presidents leaving office.

Obama mentioned his name 75 times last night ... a little ego on the way out. :yep:

Not his name:

Obama said “I” 33 times during the speech, “my” 20 times, “me” 10 times, and “I’m” or “I’ve” 12 times

It's kind of his thang:

The president made a habit of focusing large chunks of his speeches on himself during his eight years in office. Last July, for example, he mentioned himself 45 times over the course of a speech given at a speech for the slain Dallas police officers.


http://dailycaller.com/2017/01/10/obama-refers-to-himself-75-times-in-farewell-address/

[Buddahaid]

Well it really is about him by definition isn't it! You don't get in office without an ego.:yep:

[vienna]

Pure political sophistry of the worst sort. No pure word count is an indicator of actual intent of the word being counted. Examples from the actual unedited speech:

It’s good to be home. My fellow Americans, Michelle and I have been so touched by all the well-wishes we’ve received over the past few weeks. But tonight it’s my turn to say thanks. Whether we’ve seen eye-to-eye or rarely agreed at all, my conversations with you, the American people – in living rooms and schools; at farms and on factory floors; at diners and on distant outposts – are what have kept me honest, kept me inspired, and kept me going. Every day, I learned from you. You made me a better president, and you made me a better man.

I first came to Chicago when I was in my early 20s, still trying to figure out who I was; still searching for a purpose to my life. It was in neighborhoods not far from here where I began working with church groups in the shadows of closed steel mills. It was on these streets where I witnessed the power of faith, and the quiet dignity of working people in the face of struggle and loss. This is where I learned that change only happens when ordinary people get involved, get engaged, and come together to demand it.
After eight years as your president, I still believe that. And it’s not just my belief. It’s the beating heart of our American idea – our bold experiment in self-government.If I had told you eight years ago that America would reverse a great recession, reboot our auto industry, and unleash the longest stretch of job creation in our history…if I had told you that we would open up a new chapter with the Cuban people, shut down Iran’s nuclear weapons program without firing a shot, and take out the mastermind of 9/11…if I had told you that we would win marriage equality, and secure the right to health insurance for another 20 million of our fellow citizens – you might have said our sights were set a little too high.In 10 days, the world will witness a hallmark of our democracy: the peaceful transfer of power from one freely elected president to the next. I committed to President-elect Trump that my administration would ensure the smoothest possible transition, just as President Bush did for me. Because it’s up to all of us to make sure our government can help us meet the many challenges we still face.That’s what I want to focus on tonight – the state of our democracy.
Understand, democracy does not require uniformity. Our founders quarreled and compromised, and expected us to do the same. But they knew that democracy does require a basic sense of solidarity – the idea that for all our outward differences, we are all in this together; that we rise or fall as one.Our democracy won’t work without a sense that everyone has economic opportunity. Today, the economy is growing again; wages, incomes, home values, and retirement accounts are rising again; poverty is falling again. The wealthy are paying a fairer share of taxes even as the stock market shatters records. The unemployment rate is near a 10-year low. The uninsured rate has never, ever been lower. Healthcare costs are rising at the slowest rate in 50 years. And if anyone can put together a plan that is demonstrably better than the improvements we’ve made to our healthcare system – that covers as many people at less cost – I will publicly support it.
That’s why I leave this stage tonight even more optimistic about this country than I was when we started. Because I know our work has not only helped so many Americans; it has inspired so many Americans – especially so many young people out there – to believe you can make a difference; to hitch your wagon to something bigger than yourselves. This generation coming up – unselfish, altruistic, creative, patriotic – I’ve seen you in every corner of the country. You believe in a fair, just, inclusive America; you know that constant change has been America’s hallmark, something not to fear but to embrace, and you are willing to carry this hard work of democracy forward. You’ll soon outnumber any of us, and I believe as a result that the future is in good hands.

My fellow Americans, it has been the honor of my life to serve you. I won’t stop; in fact, I will be right there with you, as a citizen, for all my days that remain. For now, whether you’re young or young at heart, I do have one final ask of you as your president – the same thing I asked when you took a chance on me eight years ago.

I am asking you to believe. Not in my ability to bring about change – but in yours.

I am asking you to hold fast to that faith written into our founding documents; that idea whispered by slaves and abolitionists; that spirit sung by immigrants and homesteaders and those who marched for justice; that creed reaffirmed by those who planted flags from foreign battlefields to the surface of the moon; a creed at the core of every American whose story is not yet written:

Yes We Can.

Yes We Did.

Yes We Can.

Thank you. God bless you. And may God continue to bless the United States of America.I am not defending Obama or his terms in office; I am more concerned with what is coming. But I do like to defend the real, actual, useful truth: I challenge you to show in the above examples, or anywhere in the entire text of the speech, any instance of a purely self-serving or self-aggrandizing instance of the word "I". I am quite sure I will die of old age before you are successful. I did see an awful lot of instances of words such as "we" and "us"; I also counted 63 paragraphs in the text (including single sentence paragraphs); 20 of those paragraphs had either the words "I" or "I've"; that leaves 43 paragraphs without any alleged "self reference" or almost 70% of the text. A count of words is not in any way an indicator of meaning; unless one has heard first hand or read the words of any text, one can not say, with authority, they know the full intent of the words...

I'm willing to bet a good many of the people who take this sort of tripe sophistry as actual reasoning are the same people who neither saw, heard nor read the speech. They probably just wait around for the talk show host, blogger, hatchet job website to tell them what to think and say and how to vote; it must be nice in that little world, not having to use whatever brainpower they might have; they must laugh at all us silly, stupid folk who actually do the "homework" and try to separate out the dross so we might actually find the truth and make informed decisions; Oh, silly us, for thinking democracy and the fate of our nation deserves at least some effort from its citizens...



Again, if you just take the "word" of those out to misconstrue for their own advantage, well, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you...



<O>

[vienna]

Well it really is about him by definition isn't it! You don't get in office without an ego.:yep:

Very true of all of them: Leader Of The Free World is not a title sought by a very humble person...

I wonder if a word count of previous Presidential Farewells were made, how often "I" and other self-references might occur. I don't have the patience to do it, but it would probably be no better or worse than any other...


<O>

[Oberon]

https://media.giphy.com/media/3o7abuqxszgO6pFb3i/giphy.gif

Barack Obama (2017)

I - 33
my - 18
me - 12
I've - 11
I'm - 1

George W Bush (2009)

I - 35
my - 9
me - 6
I've - 2
I'm - 0

Bill Clinton (2001)

I - 17
my - 4
me - 3
I've - 1
I'm - 2

George H.W. Bush (1993)

I - 46
my - 9
me - 2
I've - 0
I'm - 2

Ronald Reagan (1989)

I - 72
my - 15
me - 9
I've - 13
I'm - 4

Jimmy Carter (1981)

I - 28
my - 8
me - 4
I've - 2
I'm - 1


I can go on, but Ford didn't give a Farewell address it seems but did a final State of the Union address, not sure if that would count.

Speeches found here - http://millercenter.org/president/speeches
Except for Obamas which I've got from ketv.com.
In all cases I've gotten the 'find' function on Firefox and put in the relevant words with 'highlight all', 'match words' and 'whole words' then seeing how many matches there are. I'll admit that this gives some problems with "I" because it sometimes highlights "I've" and "I'm" as well because it has the word "I" in it. :hmmm:

https://media.giphy.com/media/5L2okTiupVRxC/giphy.gif

[Mr Quatro]

Billionaire George Soros reportedly lost nearly $1 billion during Trump rally
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/billionaire-george-soros-reportedly-lost-134916493.html

Soros' hedge fund, Soros Fund Management, manages about $30 billion for Soros and his family. Soros was a supporter of Hillary Clinton's campaign.

[Mr Quatro]

Thank you vienna and Oberon for tracking the truth down, but Obama will not be remembered for his humility.

[August]

Thank you vienna and Oberon for tracking the truth down, but Obama will not be remembered for his humility.

No and i'll bet there is a distinct difference in the way he uses the I's and me's to how previous Presidents have used it.

[mapuc]

George Takei is one of them follow on FB I have never seen so much negative comments from this person when it comes to the new President.

He has the right to have his say, but there must be some positive thing he has to say about Trump.

Markus

[Platapus]

George Takei is one of them follow on FB I have never seen so much negative comments from this person when it comes to the new President.

He has the right to have his say, but there must be some positive thing he has to say about Trump.

Markus

There is no requirement for anyone's opinion to be based on facts nor is there any requirement that someone's opinion represent all sides of an issue.

[vienna]

Thank you vienna and Oberon for tracking the truth down, but Obama will not be remembered for his humility.

Thankfully, we now have a Dipstick-In-Chief who is very well known for his humility: "I know more than the generals; I know more than the intelligence community; I know more than [insert laughably implausible comparative here]...". If it's humility you're looking for, boy, did you ever pick the wrong Dipstick...

http://www.snopes.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/trump-military-service-quote.jpeg


I would very much like to see, further down the road, a count of how many times Dump..er, ah,...Trump use "I" in his own presidential speeches; it would probably take a Cray to tabulate that count... :haha:

Well, with any luck, he'll trip over his own ego, do something characteristically idiotic, and be given the boot; probability is on the side of that issue...

@ Oberon...

Much respect for the effort! At my age, the ability alone to count one's fingers and toes is an accomplishment... :salute:


<O>

[vienna]

No and i'll bet there is a distinct difference in the way he uses the I's and me's to how previous Presidents have used it.

Any real, verifiable specifics to this claim?...



<O>