US Politics Thread 2016-2020 [Archive] - Page 3

yubba

01-23-17, 08:35 AM

Is this really all you're capable of? I agree with you about Hillary, but you were asked to justify Trump's lies, and your best response is to say "well, their side's worse!"?

Why can't you answer the question?

http://www.wnd.com/2016/08/clinton-death-list-33-most-intriguing-cases/

So what justified Hillary's lies,, oooh I know she lusted for power,, and she had too deliver on her bribes,,, If you say Trump lied it's up to you prove beyond a dought that he did if you are going to make such bold statements,, I have gone round in round with you and I do enjoy the battle and time after time you evade the issue of what was the great transformation of America was to be, you all had 8 years to do so and failed to explain it so a dummy like me could understand it,, where I stand the last administration led us down the wrong path to becoming a third world banana republic crap hole just look at Chicago.. I think the biggest lie said other than it was a video's fault,,was if you like your plan,, like your doctor you can keep them and save 2500 bucks I believe that Trumps any white lie Trump said.. If you care to explain those lies and I will see if I can defend our new President, so what faultshood did he convey that you are concerned about ???

Dowly

01-23-17, 08:50 AM

If you care to explain those lies and I will see if I can defend our new President, so what faultshood did he convey that you are concerned about ???
The lies were listed in the ny times article Vienna posted on last page. (post #492 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2459979&postcount=492))

A post you quoted and replied to.

You should probably click those links, so you wouldn't be so confused all the time what everyone is talking about.

Oberon

01-23-17, 08:57 AM

dummy like me

http://i.imgur.com/8GfLoGB.gif

yubba

01-23-17, 09:06 AM

The lies were listed in the ny times article Vienna posted on last page. (post #492 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2459979&postcount=492))

A post you quoted and replied to.

You should probably click those links, so you wouldn't be so confused all the time what everyone is talking about.

Don't get the alure of Globalism and why people think they got the right to rule over me,, to line their own pockets.

yubba

01-23-17, 09:08 AM

The lies were listed in the ny times article Vienna posted on last page. (post #492 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2459979&postcount=492))

A post you quoted and replied to.

You should probably click those links, so you wouldn't be so confused all the time what everyone is talking about.

Sorry don't read the fake news of that liberal rag..

Dowly

01-23-17, 09:17 AM

Sorry don't read the fake news of that liberal rag..Trust me, I didn't think you would.

yubba

01-23-17, 09:39 AM

Trust me, I didn't think you would.

I for one wouldn't have thought you'd protect the status quo,, I for one don't like being sheared like a sheep,, but each to their own,, till you are led to slaughter.

Dowly

01-23-17, 10:27 AM

I for one wouldn't have thought you'd protect the status quo,, I for one don't like being sheared like a sheep,, but each to their own,, till you are led to slaughter.
What are you on about? The status quo of what? America? :doh:

Concentrate, Yubba. You are straying from the point of discussion, which is Trump's lies.

AVGWarhawk

01-23-17, 10:34 AM

There is no justification for Trump lies. There is no justification for Hillary's lies. There is an apparent call for the truth in reporting.

I do not understand why it is necessary to compare crowd attendance. Of what purpose does it serve other than to lift one up and put down another?

Concerning the ugly truth of the false news creating problems, I believe the perfect example is the false reporting of the MLK bust removal from the Oval Office. IMO that type of reporting is very blatant. Further, the reporter who tweeted this should be fired IMO. This reporting was only to start trouble.

The next issue at hand is the archiving of the Obama White House website on day one of Trumps administration. The amount of outcry of people stating that it has "started already" obliterating what BO has done is astonishing. These folks failed to understand this is the Obama administration when finished so is all of what his administration entails concerning paperwork and website(archived). Laws passed, some executive orders and policies remain intact until otherwise changed by Congress, SCOTUS or President.

The next order of business....Roe V Wade. Once again we are faced with the usual Roe V Wade will be abolished. The likelihood of Roe V Wade, even with a empty seat for SCOTUS, there is not enough to overturn the ruling.

yubba

01-23-17, 10:42 AM

What are you on about? The status quo of what? America? :doh:

Concentrate, Yubba. You are straying from the point of discussion, which is Trump's lies.

Well I would but you haven't said what lie or lies you are concerned about,, how about being specific,, if you can.. I'm not the one believing the US lamestream fake propaganda news media that is in bed with the democrat party and the liberal left. This why there is a need for a Free Press what part of free don't you understand other than a hand out at some one else's expence..

Dowly

01-23-17, 10:56 AM

Well I would but you haven't said what lie or lies you are concerned about how about being specific,, if you can..I did tell you where you could find a list of those lies. They won't change no matter where you read them from or whether I write them here.

But, ok, how about Trump's claim that it was the media that made it look like he had a "feud" with the intelligence community?

What do you think about that? Is Trump correct or is he lying?

AVGWarhawk

01-23-17, 11:05 AM

Dowly

01-23-17, 11:10 AM

He was feuding or disagreement? Sometimes it is a play on words as well. Either way, Trump was butting heads with the CIA.Feud was the word Trump used.

Here's the full quote:

"They (the media) are among the most dishonest human beings on Earth. And they sort of made it sound like I had a feud with the intelligence community. And I just want to let you know, the reason you're the No. 1 stop is exactly the opposite."He also said he was a "big fan" of the int. community earlier.

The other tweets written by the tiny fingers of the God King himself say otherwise.

Aktungbby

01-23-17, 11:11 AM

http://i2.cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/150926072348-donald-trump-bible-values-voters-00001206-large-169.jpg

"The bible, completely overrated," http://cdn.abclocal.go.com/content/creativecontent/images/cms/1712099_630x354.jpg
THUS: It takes two completely overrated bibles(his mothers and Lincoln's) to get the job done!?? :k_confused:

Schroeder

01-23-17, 11:19 AM

Was anybody else reminded of this guy?
http://foto.arcor-online.net/palb/alben/54/1012554/3539333665666434.jpg

Sailor Steve

01-23-17, 11:40 AM

So what justified Hillary's lies,, oooh I know she lusted for power,, and she had too deliver on her bribes,,,
So you jump right back into your game of "I know you are, but what am I." Can you answer the question or not?

"If you say Trump lied it's up to you prove beyond a dought that he did if you are going to make such bold statements,,[/quote]
That's already been shown by others. Have you answered that?

I have gone round in round with you and I do enjoy the battle and time after time you evade the issue of what was the great transformation of America was to be, you all had 8 years to do so and failed to explain it so a dummy like me could understand it,, where I stand the last administration led us down the wrong path to becoming a third world banana republic crap hole just look at Chicago..
Actually you commented once on something I said - hardly "round in round". I haven't evaded anything. August showed that I was mistaken about Trump disavowing David Duke's endorsement, and I apologized. On that note the main body of my statement - that the Old Guard racists from the South gravitated to the Republican Party following the Civil Rights movement - still stands.

As for "you all" having eight years, I told you at the time that I'm not a Liberal, and I'm not a Democrat. I'm also not a Conservative or Republican. I'm in the habit of looking at each issue by itself, not as part of a Party platform. I didn't like Obama, not because of his supposed personal flaws but because of his policies. I wasn't a fan of Bush for the same reason. Nor Clinton. Unlike you I don't follow one side or the other blindly, but try to consider everything. But you ignored all that in your sweeping "you all" statement, and automatically assume that anyone who disagrees with you or brings up a problem with your favorite candidate of the week is automatically a member of the other side and therefor your enemy. Sorry, but it just ain't so.

I think the biggest lie said other than it was a video's fault,,was if you like your plan,, like your doctor you can keep them and save 2500 bucks I believe that Trumps any white lie Trump said.. If you care to explain those lies and I will see if I can defend our new President, so what faultshood did he convey that you are concerned about ???
My plan? My doctor? Again you assume what is not true, just because I pointed out the shift in demographics for the two major parties. I was and am still against Obamacare, so there's nothing to explain. As to his falsehoods, those were brought up by others. I merely chided you for dodging the question.

Skybird

01-23-17, 12:43 PM

In a queer way, something good for Europe can come from Trump in the WH. That is that in past decades us Europeans made it our hobby to think even the most ridicule insanities, the most absurd concepts and the most reality-distanced plans while hiding behind America's big, wide military shoulders. We always assumed the big cousin on the other side of the Atlantic would not allow that the harm of our stupid ideas would ever reach us. While imagining we were immune to even the most dangerous, self-damaging plans' consequences that we take for granted America would always protect us from, we let all naivety and all stupidity and all reality-disconnection run amok in our intellectual landscape of heavily indoctrinated leftist Europe.

This seems to be impossible to continue with. And that is good.

We cannot afford to do so any longer. European nations now need to realise that we have left the comfort zone of history that there was since WWII.

This is a dangerous watershed for Europe. There is a chance, and there is a great risk. What materialises of the two, is up to Europeans themselves. America seems to be unwilling to save us from the consequences we trigger any longer.

In a way, I am thankful for this, for it will either force our "elites" to become more responsibly and competent, and very fast, or it will demask their megalomina and infantility and mouth-heroism mercilessly so that even the last idiot in the corner seat of the last row in the hall can no longer avoid to become aware of it. With the exception of hopeless cases like Corbyn, maybe. :D

Real dangers and real threats that must be faced and cannot be avoided, are the best of teachers. And they unsentimentally sort out those who refuse to adapt to the needs of given realities. Evolution can work wonders, if you let it.

But pleasant it will not become, I warn you in advance.

Bilge_Rat

01-23-17, 01:15 PM

Is Trump correct or is he lying?

As far as I can tell, the media lies just as much as Trump, probably why no one trusts them anymore, but they just get upset when Trump lies:

After Decrying Fake News, Journalists Are Still Binging On Fake News

example, claim #1

According to the Politico report, which was quickly gobbled up and redistributed by every major media outlet on earth, Mnuchin foreclosed on the home of a 90-year-old widow over a 27-cent debt.

turns out to be a lie:

Pretty horrifying, right? It would be, if any of it were actually true. According to Ted Frank, a seasoned litigator who runs the Center for Class Action Fairness, the whole thing is bogus. Not only did Mnuchin’s company not have anything to do with the litigation against the woman, her home was never foreclosed on, either. The suit that was filed against her was based on faulty paperwork by the mortgage servicer and quickly dismissed, at which point the bank that was involved put an offer on the table to pay her for her troubles.

claim #2:

Then there’s the story of how Donald Trump, in one of his first acts as president, removed the bust of civil rights icon Martin Luther King, Jr. from the Oval Office.

also turns out to be a lie:

The basis for Miller’s report? He didn’t see the bust, so he assumed it must not have been there. After he was forced to correct his egregious error, Miller disclosed that he just hadn’t seen the bust because it was “obscured” by a person and a door.

claim #3:

Don’t worry, though: there’s more. Author Richard Hine tweeted that Trump “literally blew a kiss” to FBI Director James Comey during a White House meeting on Sunday.

was also a lie:

“The text above was based on the White House pool report,” he wrote. “However, now having watched the video myself, ‘hug’ seems overstated.”

http://thefederalist.com/2017/01/23/mainstream-media-still-binging-fake-news/

how can anyone trust the mainstream media when they lie so often.

AVGWarhawk

01-23-17, 01:18 PM

Feud was the word Trump used.

Here's the full quote:

He also said he was a "big fan" of the int. community earlier.

The other tweets written by the tiny fingers of the God King himself say otherwise.

Feud, yes. A nicer way of saying he was battling it out with the CIA. In short, sugar coating. At the end of the day, why visit the CIA on a Saturday. The day after being sworn in? Of all the agencies to request voluntary participation to a Trump visit why the CIA?

Because Trump pissed the agency off!

Schroeder

01-23-17, 01:25 PM

yubba

01-23-17, 01:36 PM

I did tell you where you could find a list of those lies. They won't change no matter where you read them from or whether I write them here.

But, ok, how about Trump's claim that it was the media that made it look like he had a "feud" with the intelligence community?

What do you think about that? Is Trump correct or is he lying?

Would that be the same media,, that said Trump threw the bust of Doctor King into the street,a day ago or that the Russians tampered with the election, and wouldn't report on democrat election fraud ,.. Well if Trump did say something that the libs took out of context,, it doesn't come close to the whoopers that were told to cover up the deaths of 4 Americans,, maybe you should get your priorities straight. The mainstream media has discreditted themselves so I don't hold any stock in what they have to say or with the people that blindly follow them.

yubba

01-23-17, 01:40 PM

That's already been shown by others. Have you answered that?

Actually you commented once on something I said - hardly "round in round". I haven't evaded anything. August showed that I was mistaken about Trump disavowing David Duke's endorsement, and I apologized. On that note the main body of my statement - that the Old Guard racists from the South gravitated to the Republican Party following the Civil Rights movement - still stands. On the other hand, while Trump made his first "disavowment" years ago, when asked recently he claimed he had never heard of David Duke. He then backtracked on that. That in itself is not a good sign.

As for "you all" having eight years, I told you at the time that I'm not a Liberal, and I'm not a Democrat. I'm also not a Conservative or Republican. I'm in the habit of looking at each issue by itself, not as part of a Party platform. I didn't like Obama, not because of his supposed personal flaws but because of his policies. I wasn't a fan of Bush for the same reason. Nor Clinton. Unlike you I don't follow one side or the other blindly, but try to consider everything. But you ignored all that in your sweeping "you all" statement, and automatically assume that anyone who disagrees with you or brings up a problem with your favorite candidate of the week is automatically a member of the other side and therefor your enemy. Sorry, but it just ain't so.

My plan? My doctor? Again you assume what is not true, just because I pointed out the shift in demographics for the two major parties. I was and am still against Obamacare, so there's nothing to explain. As to his falsehoods, those were brought up by others. I merely chided you for dodging the question.[/QUOTE]

a few post back you claimed the Republican party has became more racist,, if that's not taking a side I don't what is,, you mine showing some proof to back your bold statement.

AVGWarhawk

01-23-17, 02:25 PM

Track Trumps first 100 days:

www.track-trump.com

Mr Quatro

01-23-17, 02:41 PM

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=200&pictureid=9260

"Would you be so kind to clarify", specifically, why any reasonable, intelligent person should trust or support such a transparently dishonest administration, or is dishonesty only a problem when someone you don't like is in office? Honesty and dishonesty is not fungible; nor are integrity and artifice,,,Like Hillary that has a trail of dead bodies behind her that a blind man could see,, a women that sold access to her while she was in office by to the highest bidder,that's called bribery, not too mention all the lies about Benghazi I hope she rots in prison..

I got here a little late due to collecting my playoff bets, but that is funny Yubba ... it's good to have a laugh, plus I know of people in jail in Texas for one marijuana cigarette :o

Dowly

01-23-17, 02:46 PM

The mainstream media has discreditted themselves so I don't hold any stock in what they have to say or with the people that blindly follow them.I'm not asking you to. This is all coming from Trump himself.

Anyway, as you once more showed that you are unable to answer a simple yes or no question, I bid you farewell for now.

STEED

01-23-17, 02:54 PM

I do not understand why it is necessary to compare crowd attendance. Of what purpose does it serve other than to lift one up and put down another?

This cheap shot at Trump was not needed and yet they are having a good laugh, Trump made the error to rise to the bait. He better learn from this or it will turn into a Punch and Judy Show.

yubba

01-23-17, 02:55 PM

I'm not asking you to. This is all coming from Trump himself.

Anyway, as you once more showed that you are unable to answer a simple yes or no question, I bid you farewell for now.
no you said the media said he said it,, quit twisting ,in any case no one died, we all know liberals lie to hide their true intentions my case in point

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=200&pictureid=9316

Mr Quatro

01-23-17, 02:57 PM

The next order of business....Roe V Wade. Once again we are faced with the usual Roe V Wade will be abolished. The likelihood of Roe V Wade, even with a empty seat for SCOTUS, there is not enough to overturn the ruling.

The next order of business in the trade deals with the Pacific and Trump just froze all federal hiring. He has business meetings with Mexico next week and a visitor from England this friday, but I don't think (we are allowed to think in here right) that Roe vs Wade is all that important to Mr Trump. It was a campaign trail promise, but the true next order of business will be the SCOtUS
and perhaps even two of them and they will have to go through the Senate hearings etc. which will take a year at least.

This is a lot of fun to me to watch this man work ... Trump makes Obama look like a lazy fence sitter. Oh wait a minute I think he was, but I will always be thankful for the thousands of men that didn't have to die in Syria, because he was fence sitter. :yep:

AVGWarhawk

01-23-17, 03:05 PM

This cheap shot at Trump was not needed and yet they are having a good laugh, Trump made the error to rise to the bait. He better learn from this or it will turn into a Punch and Judy Show.

And I agree, Trump has not played his cards well in some instances.

Example:

1. During the debates, one question was cyber-security. He should have said we make sure Hillary's server in the basement is secure. No matter because he won anyway.

2. Refusing the $400k salary. Trump did so live on TV. He should have said this money will be donated to a good cause. Trump should have found a cause and donated. Talk about a win win if Trump moved this $400k to a good cause.

3. The crowd at the swearing in, Trump should have taken the high road and stated that the media is looking to make trouble. Looking to make this administration look bad. Another feather in his hat that the media is out for him.

4. The "removal" of the MLK bust from the Oval Office. Spicer's first briefing should have started as it did concerning the bust and ended there. In fact, the WH has enough equipment for representation Spicer could have panned the Oval Office live to the media showing the bust. Then Spicer should have said this is what the media has become. This administration will call the media out on false reporting. Specifically when the report is looking to stir trouble.

Last but not least... Trump needs to stop friggin tweeting while on the toilet. Good Lord, the tweeting is childish as it gets. Needs to stop.

AVGWarhawk

01-23-17, 03:08 PM

The next order of business in the trade deals with the Pacific and Trump just froze all federal hiring. He has business meetings with Mexico next week and a visitor from England this friday, but I don't think (we are allowed to think in here right) that Roe vs Wade is all that important to Mr Trump. It was a campaign trail promise, but the true next order of business will be the SCOtUS
and perhaps even two of them and they will have to go through the Senate hearings etc. which will take a year at least.

This is a lot of fun to me to watch this man work ... Trump makes Obama look like a lazy fence sitter. Oh wait a minute I think he was, but I will always be thankful for the thousands of men that didn't have to die in Syria, because he was fence sitter. :yep:

www.track-trump.com

For me, Obama did his best to stay below the radar and not make waves. In short, Obama was in over his head. So you bow and go on a apology tour. Keeps one out of trouble.

TPP is already history!

EDIT: For 70 years old Trump seems relentless and on a mission. I get tired just keeping up.

Jeff-Groves

01-23-17, 03:18 PM

plus I know of people in jail in Texas for one marijuana cigarette :o
Are any of them on the Pardon list?
Seems Obama pardoned several people with worse offenses.

Dowly

01-23-17, 03:34 PM

no you said the media said he said it,, quit twisting , No, Trump said the media said that he said what he didn't say that he said.

Jeff-Groves

01-23-17, 03:36 PM

No, Trump said the media said that he said what he didn't say that he said.

My head hurts now.
:doh:

AVGWarhawk

01-23-17, 03:44 PM

No, Trump said the media said that he said what he didn't say that he said.

If you say so. :O:

yubba

01-23-17, 03:45 PM

No, Trump said the media said that he said what he didn't say that he said.
That's what I thought, you thought you said,, and yet no one died because of it..

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=200&pictureid=9317

AVGWarhawk

01-23-17, 03:58 PM

Whatever the government states is the unemployment rate simply double that figure.
:03:

Jeff-Groves

01-23-17, 04:00 PM

Whatever the government states is the unemployment rate simply double that figure.
:03:

And I think your being generous.
:03:

Let me expound a bit.
I travel for my job and do a lot of hiring of temp workers.
I can not tell you how many think they deserve better pay for sub par work ethics.
I have offered to hire a few of them full time, at a bit higher rate.
All have turned that down as they would loose benefits under the current system.
So where is the incentive for those people to leave the current system?

Oberon

01-23-17, 04:05 PM

No, Trump said the media said that he said what he didn't say that he said.

http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-there-are-known-knowns-these-are-things-we-know-that-we-know-there-are-known-unknowns-that-is-to-donald-rumsfeld-160005.jpg

AVGWarhawk

01-23-17, 04:08 PM

No, Trump said the media said that he said what he didn't say that he said.

http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-it-depends-on-what-the-meaning-of-the-word-is-is-bill-clinton-304576.jpg

Jeff-Groves

01-23-17, 04:10 PM

:o
Dowley plagiarized in a way.
:haha:

AVGWarhawk

01-23-17, 04:10 PM

And I think your being generous.
:03:

Let me expound a bit.
I travel for my job and do a lot of hiring of temp workers.
I can not tell you how many think they deserve better pay for sub par work ethics.
I have offered to hire a few of them full time, at a bit higher rate.
All have turned that down as they would loose benefits under the current system.
So where is the incentive for those people to leave the current system?

I have experienced this myself. My BIL had a job offer. The offer paid less than his unemployment benefits. Job declined.

There is no incentive to get off the rolls. The only incentive is to have a time limit on the rolls and enforce it. I remember a time my SIL loudly complained her benefits were up. She could not believe "they" were pulling her benefits.

Jeff-Groves

01-23-17, 04:18 PM

In the last year? I was able to hire one Guy out of Georgia.
He took the chance and is my number 1 Guy.

I payed out of my pocket to get him a bus from Georgia to Michigan. 32 hour trip!

If I had 10 just like him? I could retire!

And he asked me for a job having never had met aside from a Chat room.

Oberon

01-23-17, 04:18 PM

Or jobs could...well...pay a living wage, or above it for that matter, so that benefits are the less attractive option... :hmmm:

Skybird

01-23-17, 04:20 PM

I'm a bit confused as to what you are referring to. I wasn't aware we had any acute military problems atm from which we couldn't get out without US help. Afghanistan and Mali could be evacuated with help of other NATO members if need were to arise.
What other stupid adventures did we go to that would require US forces to help us?
I see far more dangerous mistakes being made with the EU economy and our suicidal migrant policies but both couldn't be fixed by US forces.:hmmm:
- No Nachrüstungsdoppelbeschluß. Freedom for the world by sheer will power.
- Withdrawal of remainign American nukes in Germany (Westerwelle). No policy of nukleare Teilhabe.
- Leaving NATO.
- Defence alliance with Russia.
- Spending money needed for maintaining a defence budget for social(ist) solidarity acts and voter bribery instead.
- Anti-Americanism and "Friedensbewegung".
- Saving Afghanistan from the Taliban. :haha:
- Negotiating the two state solution for the Jewish plague, I mean the Israeli-Palestinian problem - and thinking that if that is solved the big peace breaks out in the Middle East. :har:
- Controlling and containing Russia, Iranian nukes or Islamisation - with endless babbling, and bribery, no hard measures, never.

Further:

- Dismantling Germany as a primary industrial power.
- Giving up key competences in decisive technoloigy fields: nuclear, aero tech.
- Brainwashing Germans into turning into a people of imitation cheese eaters, and calling that a contribution to climate saving.
- Not keeping up with IT competence of main competitors, namely Asia and American compoanies like Apple, Google, Facebook, and there aggressive business models.
- Dreaming the illusion that Germany, not producing even 1.8% of CO2 emissions, must make the difference by saving lets say 50% of its emiissions, which would translate into CO2 saving sglobally that range in the below-one-percent range - and are beign eaten up already by every single volcanic erruption anywhere in the world.
- Thinking that 50+ factors gender-ideology is the way to go.
- Socialist all-inclusive debt explosion and exessive tax-plundering.

And so on and on and on and on and on and on.

Wenn Du mich das noch mal fragst, kriegst Du von mir nur Hohn und Spott und Gelächter zu hören. Our German quality news and media are filled from first to last page with nonsense and evidence of infantility like this. I refuse to take this nonsense serious as if it would have ever deserved to be taken serious.

Jeff-Groves

01-23-17, 04:20 PM

How do you beat FREE benefits?
We are a small Company and I have to put over $300 a month from my wages for insurance.
The Company covers the other part.

It's so crazy that I would almost be better off to leave my job and go on the rolls here.

AVGWarhawk

01-23-17, 04:28 PM

Jeff-Groves

01-23-17, 04:30 PM

Pride.
Seems many have sold that virtue.
:(

Jeff-Groves

01-23-17, 04:34 PM

Pride is one of the 7 deadly sins.
But only under certain conditions.

Seems people don't want to take that into account.

And that could be part of the Political stuff.

AVGWarhawk

01-23-17, 04:35 PM

Seems many have sold that virtue.
:(

Yes they have. There was a time that being on the rolls was frowned upon. I was raised in such a time as that. For some of my family members being on the rolls is a way of life.

Jeff-Groves

01-23-17, 04:39 PM

Is it wrong for me to admit I was only on Unemployment for a couple weeks back in 1979?
Since then I'm PROUD to say I have never accepted Gov support in any way.
There were tough times believe me! But I worked my butt off when I had to.

I took things into my own hands and have never been without a job since.
My home and Cars are payed off. And I owe no one a single dime.

I'm not rich. But I do have that pride and a good home.
My Wife was on assistance when I hooked up with her.
I had her leave that and We managed.

yubba

01-23-17, 04:56 PM

How much do you want to bet in the next coming weeks all we will hear is Trickle down economics,, from the commie left and how it doesn't work,, who in their right mind would have a business in a country where you have to give almost 40% of your earnings straight off the top to a corrupt government then pay your employees then power ,, water ,, and a host of other things.. for those calling for a living wage don't like what you are getting paid,, clean your act up and get a better paying job,,,Working at Mc Donalds wasn't meant to be a career.

jayni

01-23-17, 05:04 PM

Donald Trump says he wants to get rid of Medicare. If he does the Women's March on Washington will seem insignificant when five million grannies march in their walkers yelling "NO MEDICARE NO PEACE."

'

Jeff-Groves

01-23-17, 05:12 PM

clean your act up and get a better paying job,,,Working at Mc Donalds wasn't meant to be a career.

Wow!
Even for you that is crazy talk!
How much do you actually travel and work in places that suffer the worst from economic decline?
I can rattle off nearly every Major city I've been to in just the last 5 years.
And I worked with the Temps there. Heard the real story from them. Not some story from media or statistics.
I've talk to those Mac Donalds workers and more.
It's not what you seem to think it is.
No. I did not want another Clinton in Office so chose the lesser of 2 evils.
And I will admit, and have done so, as to trolling a bit.
I am a mod on another forum where politics are strictly forbidden.
All of the members here at SubSim give me an honest point of view AS THEY SEE IT.
Don't take that for granted.

yubba

01-23-17, 05:39 PM

Wow!
Even for you that is crazy talk!
How much do you actually travel and work in places that suffer the worst from economic decline?
I can rattle off nearly every Major city I've been to in just the last 5 years.
And I worked with the Temps there. Heard the real story from them. Not some story from media or statistics.
I've talk to those Mac Donalds workers and more.
It's not what you seem to think it is.
No. I did not want another Clinton in Office so chose the lesser of 2 evils.
And I will admit, and have done so, as to trolling a bit.
I am a mod on another forum where politics are strictly forbidden.
All of the members here at SubSim give me an honest point of view AS THEY SEE IT.
Don't take that for granted.

It is not a employers job to see if you make enough money to pay your bills that falls on you,, maybe Government should do it's fair share of lessening the tax burden on employers instead of destroying them with burdensome taxes and draconian regulations,so the employer can give them better pay., I traveled, seen,,and dove through enough dumpsters ,, and it's the fault of the government that's why we are in this mess and why we voted for Trump.

Jeff-Groves

01-23-17, 05:50 PM

We, as the People, voted them in.
So yes. We need to vote them out.
I will not defend the Government in anyway in it's current form.

Sailor Steve

01-23-17, 06:40 PM

a few post back you claimed the Republican party has became more racist,, if that's not taking a side I don't what is,, you mine showing some proof to back your bold statement.
You asked me that before. I pointed out that the article I linked gave exactly that. Did you not bother to read it? Also I clarified that in the post you quoted. The fact is that all the old-guard Southern Democrats who opposed the Civil Rights acts joined the Republican Party afterwards and were welcomed with open arms. As for taking sides, did I not agree with you about Hillary?

But the subject was Trump's lies, and you still haven't answered that. You also haven't answered any of the questions I asked in my last post. You carefully avoided Dowly's comments and tried to change it back to what you wanted. You are still running and hiding from that. Will you ever address it, or will you just keep dodging it?

Buddahaid

01-23-17, 07:45 PM

Never going to happen Steve and I think I've found the first person I'm going to block. The broken record is not ever going to play again it seems.

yubba

01-23-17, 08:14 PM

You asked me that before. I pointed out that the article I linked gave exactly that. Did you not bother to read it? Also I clarified that in the post you quoted. The fact is that all the old-guard Southern Democrats who opposed the Civil Rights acts joined the Republican Party afterwards and were welcomed with open arms. As for taking sides, did I not agree with you about Hillary?

But the subject was Trump's lies, and you still haven't answered that. You also haven't answered any of the questions I asked in my last post. You carefully avoided Dowly's comments and tried to change it back to what you wanted. You are still running and hiding from that. Will you ever address it, or will you just keep dodging it?

and again what lies,, the lies the fake media said he said be specific ,, I wasn't aware that there was lies worse than Hillary's??? And no the old southern democrat guard has not became republican if any thing they became communist,, and you have not provided any proof republicans are racist . And why should I answer for Trumps lies when you can't answer for the violence of your brethren,. what about your violence..

yubba

01-23-17, 08:21 PM

Never going to happen Steve and I think I've found the first person I'm going to block. The broken record is not ever going to play again it seems.,,

Typical,, can't debate,,with out insults and trying to shut people up,, and you wonder why Trump won., Here we are going around and round about some made up lie,, and you won't address the violence of the left show cased this week..

Oberon

01-23-17, 08:36 PM

It is not a employers job to see if you make enough money to pay your bills that falls on you,,

Perhaps, but if an employer is smart enough, they'll realise that if they paid a living wage or above then their employees wouldn't have to work extra shifts elsewhere which means that they would be able to devote all of their energy and productiveness in your industry.
If you want robots, just wait, they're coming and if you think the unemployment problem is bad now, brother, you ain't seen nothing yet. But actual living people work better when they're rested and well.

Oberon

01-23-17, 08:38 PM

,,

Typical,, can't debate

And you can? :hmmm:

Buddahaid

01-23-17, 09:05 PM

,,

Typical,, can't debate,,with out insults and trying to shut people up,, and you wonder why Trump won., Here we are going around and round about some made up lie,, and you won't address the violence of the left show cased this week..

Pretty funny. Yubba, you never debate anything, ever. If there is any insult given, it's to my intelligence even attempting to debate with you. It's why I'm going to put you on my ignore list. It used to be amusing, or even hard to look away from like some accident, but now it's just a big steaming pile of vitriol and effluvium being regurgitated over and over, sound bite by sound bite, and I'm bored by it.

Sailor Steve

01-23-17, 09:52 PM

and again what lies,, the lies the fake media said he said be specific ,, I wasn't aware that there was lies worse than Hillary's???[quote]
Lies are lies, no matter who tells them. I saw this race as the lesser of two evils, but this time I couldn't see that one was any better than the other. I didn't vote for either of them.

[quote]And no the old southern democrat guard has not became republican if any thing they became communist,,
Strom Thurmond, major opponent of integration. Because Democrats supported the 1964 Civil Rights Act, Thurmond became a Republican. More importantly, William F. Buckley actually endorsed White Supremacy.

and you have not provided any proof republicans are racist .
Not all of them are. In fact, I'd say most of them aren't. But take a look through the Deep South. The hardcore Southern Apologists, the ones who insist that the Civil War wasn't about slavery? The ones who want to keep fighting the old battles? These days they're predominately Republican.

And why should I answer for Trumps lies
You should answer because it's a separate subject, and several people have asked you, and you don't seem to have an answer except "the other side is worse!"

when you can't answer for the violence of your brethren,. what about your violence..
My brethren? My violence? What on earth are you talking about?

yubba

01-23-17, 09:53 PM

Pretty funny. Yubba, you never debate anything, ever. If there is any insult given, it's to my intelligence even attempting to debate with you. It's why I'm going to put you on my ignore list. It used to be amusing, or even hard to look away from like some accident, but now it's just a big steaming pile of vitriol and effluvium being regurgitated over and over, sound bite by sound bite, and I'm bored by it.

promises ,, promises I'm surprised you didn't call me a racist, you can't adhere to your own rules let alone the Law,,, all you have to do is provide a link to your wild statements,, and prove me wrong,,..simple.

yubba

01-23-17, 09:55 PM

[QUOTE=yubba;2460333]and again what lies,, the lies the fake media said he said be specific ,, I wasn't aware that there was lies worse than Hillary's???[quote]
Lies are lies, no matter who tells them. I saw this race as the lesser of two evils, but this time I couldn't see that one was any better than the other. I didn't vote for either of them.

Strom Thurmond, major opponent of integration. Because Democrats supported the 1964 Civil Rights Act, Thurmond became a Republican. More importantly, William F. Buckley actually endorsed White Supremacy.

Not all of them are. In fact, I'd say most of them aren't. But take a look through the Deep South. The hardcore Southern Apologists, the ones who insist that the Civil War wasn't about slavery? The ones who want to keep fighting the old battles? These days they're predominately Republican.

You should answer because it's a separate subject, and several people have asked you, and you don't seem to have an answer except "the other side is worse!"

My brethren? My violence? What on earth are you talking about?

Then Provide a link to back up your wild statements.

yubba

01-23-17, 10:08 PM

Perhaps, but if an employer is smart enough, they'll realise that if they paid a living wage or above then their employees wouldn't have to work extra shifts elsewhere which means that they would be able to devote all of their energy and productiveness in your industry.
If you want robots, just wait, they're coming and if you think the unemployment problem is bad now, brother, you ain't seen nothing yet. But actual living people work better when they're rested and well.

What would you consider a living wage,, ???? Last job I had paid 10 an hour I did well ,,, but most I seen lately ain't worth that. don't like the pay find a better job ,, an employer can find someone that is hungry enough too work for less,..

Sailor Steve

01-23-17, 10:10 PM

Then Provide a link to back up your wild statements.
I did, in my first or second post. All you had to do was read it. Are you not capable of that?

And the links to Trump's lies have been posted. If you knew how to debate you would follow each of those lies and try to rebut them. But, for all your slamming others, it is you who has no clue how debate works.

yubba

01-23-17, 10:12 PM

[QUOTE=yubba;2460333]and again what lies,, the lies the fake media said he said be specific ,, I wasn't aware that there was lies worse than Hillary's???[quote]
Lies are lies, no matter who tells them. I saw this race as the lesser of two evils, but this time I couldn't see that one was any better than the other. I didn't vote for either of them.

Strom Thurmond, major opponent of integration. Because Democrats supported the 1964 Civil Rights Act, Thurmond became a Republican. More importantly, William F. Buckley actually endorsed White Supremacy.

Not all of them are. In fact, I'd say most of them aren't. But take a look through the Deep South. The hardcore Southern Apologists, the ones who insist that the Civil War wasn't about slavery? The ones who want to keep fighting the old battles? These days they're predominately Republican.

You should answer because it's a separate subject, and several people have asked you, and you don't seem to have an answer except "the other side is worse!"

My brethren? My violence? What on earth are you talking about?

see how easy it is,, proved you wrong

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu2VsZPplug

yubba

01-23-17, 10:21 PM

I did, in my first or second post. All you had to do was read it. Are you not capable of that?

And the links to Trump's lies have been posted. If you knew how to debate you would follow each of those lies and try to rebut them. But, for all your slamming others, it is you who has no clue how debate works.

you do a find job of slamming me,, there's been a hundred posts where link to Trump's lie I haven't seen it.???

Sailor Steve

01-23-17, 10:24 PM

see how easy it is,, proved you wrong
And my link showed the exact opposite. You've proved nothing.

But I asked about your claim of "my brethren", and "my violence". I ask again, what are you talking about?

Sailor Steve

01-23-17, 10:39 PM

you do a find job of slamming me,, there's been a hundred posts where link to Trump's lie I haven't seen it.???
I didn't say "a hundred posts". There were only a few. But you "haven't seen it" even though you responded to those very posts.

White House Pushes ‘Alternative Facts.’ Here Are the Real Ones:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/22/us/politics/president-trump-inauguration-crowd-white-house.html?_r=0

Makes one wonder: If someone will lie about relatively minor issues, would they hesitate to lie about major, meaningful issues...
In fact you responded with "Sorry don't read the fake news of that liberal rag..". If you don't read it, how can you know it's fake?

Oberon

01-23-17, 11:07 PM

What would you consider a living wage,, ???? Last job I had paid 10 an hour I did well ,,, but most I seen lately ain't worth that. don't like the pay find a better job ,, an employer can find someone that is hungry enough too work for less,..

The living wage is defined as the minimum income for a worker to meet their basic needs, such as shelter, clothing and nutrition. Obviously in America that varies from state to state, but let's take Texas for example, Madison County to be precise. According to this site (http://livingwage.mit.edu/) the living wage for a single adult is $9.25 per hour.
As for someone hungry enough to work for less, such a system is unsustainable because unless you want the country to exist in a permanent state of semi-decline then the goal is to stop there being people hungry enough to work for less. In fact, I would go as far as to say part of the reason that the immigration problem is such a problem is because of that kind of attitude, because there is no incentive for an employer to pay a higher wage when he can just import a Mexican to work for that lower wage, or indeed less. What happens when you run out of Mexicans? :hmmm:

ikalugin

01-24-17, 12:34 AM

Interestingly we have two legal terms in Russia "minimal wage" and "living income". Minimal wage is used in many places, ie not only to determine wages but also fines, taxes and other stuff. Living income is determine as the cost of a basket of goods. It is determined per region due to the differing prices. For example the working person gets a basket of:
- 100kgs of potatoes.
- 126,5kgs of bread, pasta and such.
- 60kgs of fruit.
- 58kgs of meat.
- 210 eggs.
and so on and so forth.

The labour code states that the minimal wage has to be higher or equal to the living income with that norm being in the federal law, however said federal law was not passed yet and the minimal wage is below the living income.

vienna

01-24-17, 01:46 AM

Regarding Steve's post on alleged GOP racism (Hi, Steve!): I have known quite few members of the GOP, from all parts of the party spectrum, over the decades and with only one or maybe two exceptions, I have never really found any blatant racism in any of them; then, again, I live in California, so I don't know what the situation is in other states; you mileage may vary...

I personally don't believe there is virulent institutional racism in the entirety of the GOP; but the party has engaged in what can be best described as gross political opportunism of the worst kind when it comes to civil rights. I have posted this link, I believe, at least a couple of times before:

Southern Strategy -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

This effort by the GOP has come back to haunt and snakebite the GOP big time; the animus expressed by African-Americans, and other minorities, towards the GOP is largely due to this failed strategy. The GOP, still reeling from the aftereffects of the popularity of the DEMs occupancy of the White House (JFK, LBJ) and suffering from a reduction of its base, sought to bolster its membership by appealing to disgruntled Democratic Segregationists by casting the GOP party and their core beliefs as being sympathetic to the 'disenfranchised' Segregationist Southern element. The GOP got its 'cheap' votes, but paid a high price. There is an old saying about laying down with dogs and then getting up with fleas; the GOP got flea-bit a plenty. As the years rolled on, the GOP leadership realized they had stepped in a big steaming pile and finally owned up to it when the RNC Chairman at the time, Ken Mehlman, personally and formally apologized in a speech given in 2005 to a national meeting of the NAACP, for the GOP's Southern Strategy and the Party's exploitation of racial politics just to get votes. So, while racism was not really a fundamental institutional part of the GOP, it did serve the Party in some aspects as a means of conscious political furtherance; and, even though the GOP has formally apologized, the stigma still remains. This was addressed BY RNC Chairman Michael Steele when he was asked during a speech in 2010 at DePaul University why African-Americans should vote for GOP candidates and issues; not only did he openly admit the existence, again, of the Southern Strategy, he also made rather blunt statements about the GOP's failure to address the fallout of past actions:

RNC Chair Michael Steele Confesses to Race-Based Southern Strategy -

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/rnc-chair-michael-steele-confesses-to-race-based-southern-strategy/

An interesting quote from the article:

“…We have lost sight of the historic, integral link between the party and African-Americans,” Steele said. “This party was co-founded by blacks, among them Frederick Douglass. The Republican Party had a hand in forming the NAACP, and yet we have mistreated that relationship. People don’t walk away from parties, Their parties walk away from them.[Italics mine...]

Something both the major parties should consider as they lose registered membership and the ranks of Independents continues to grow...

It is interesting to note, that while the main GOP membership has eschewed the Southern Strategy, there are still some elements of it still continuing:

How the Southern Strategy Made Donald Trump Possible -

https://newrepublic.com/article/130039/southern-strategy-made-donald-trump-possible

Is the GOP institutionally racist? No...

Have they despicably used racial politics to further their goals? Yes...

<O>

August

01-24-17, 08:55 AM

Interesting article. Apparently we're in another civil war.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2017/01/24/americas_second_civil_war_132880.html

How are those of us who oppose left-wing nihilism -- there is no other word for an ideology that holds Western civilization and America's core values in contempt -- supposed to unite with "educators" who instruct elementary school teachers to cease calling their students "boys" and "girls" because that implies gender identity? With English departments that don't require reading Shakespeare in order to receive a degree in English? With those who regard virtually every war America has fought as imperialist and immoral? With those who regard the free market as a form of oppression? With those who want the state to control as much of American life as possible? With those who repeatedly tell America and its black minority that the greatest problems afflicting black Americans are caused by white racism, "white privilege" and "systemic racism"? With those who think that the nuclear family ideal is inherently misogynistic and homophobic? With those who hold that Israel is the villain in the Middle East? With those who claim that the term "Islamic terrorist" is an expression of religious bigotry?

AVGWarhawk

01-24-17, 09:33 AM

yubba

01-24-17, 09:41 AM

Thank you, posting the link to that liberal rag you call the New York Times,, I read it and didn't take much stock in it,, if that's all you got,, you'd be better off grasping for straws and getting your fake news elsewhere..

Speaking of “fake news,” the New York Times is a prime exemplar of the genre, having manufactured several stories with the clear intent of attacking and undermining conservatives, including but not limited to Breitbart News. A few recent examples:

In November 2016, the Times falsely claimed that breitbart News is a “Birther” website, despite explicit evidence to the contrary. Despite several requests, the Times has refused to correct the slanderous article, for evidently political reasons.
That same month, the Times ran an article about “white nationalism” featuring a photograph of Bannon, despite a total lack of evidence to support the implication, and despite Bannon’s explicit statements that he is not a “white nationalist.”
Also in November, the Times accused Breitbart News of “calling attention to [Lena] Dunham’s Jewish faith,” saying that it “feels like a bone thrown to the site’s white nationalist readers.” The Times neglected to report that Dunham had posted a quote from a rabbi about observing “shiva,” the Jewish ritual of mourning, for Hillary Clinton’s loss. And the Breitbart News article — which was straightfoward coverage — was written by a black author, not a “white nationalist.”

yubba

01-24-17, 10:05 AM

And my link showed the exact opposite. You've proved nothing.

But I asked about your claim of "my brethren", and "my violence". I ask again, what are you talking about?

Was Hillary not the nominee of the democrat party for president ???
http://downtrend.com/71superb/top-ten-examples-of-hillary-clintons-racism-the-media-chooses-to-ignore

Do you believe in the constitution and the founding of this great nation,,you seem to be left leaning, or do I owe you a apology,, so who is doing all the rioting,, certanly it's not us on the right..

Dowly

01-24-17, 10:28 AM

Oberon

01-24-17, 12:24 PM

Interesting article. Apparently we're in another civil war.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2017/01/24/americas_second_civil_war_132880.html

Music isn't as good this time around, needs more Dixie Land and Johnny Comes Marching Home.

Anyway, here comes dat boi liberal:

How are those of us who oppose left-wing nihilism -- there is no other word for an ideology that holds Western civilization and America's core values in contempt

I thought those core values were liberty and justice for all? Freedom of expression, but also tolerance and compassion?

-- supposed to unite with "educators" who instruct elementary school teachers to cease calling their students "boys" and "girls" because that implies gender identity?

Extremists come on both sides, most liberals would prefer that gender is not made such a big thing of, that anyone has a choice to be anything they want to be without being mocked or persecuted for it. Sure, there are those who go a step further, but despite what popular right-wing media would like to tell you, they are in the vocal minority. Around about the same level as those on the right who want to glass the Middle East.

With English departments that don't require reading Shakespeare in order to receive a degree in English?

Wut? Shakespeare was written over 400 years ago. Half of the language used in it went out of date centuries ago. Although some seems to be coming back into favour now, in particular cuckoldry. I wonder if 'Strumpet' will make a popular comeback too?

With those who regard virtually every war America has fought as imperialist and immoral?

It's pretty popular now to hate on the Iraq war isn't it? I can't say that this is something confined to the left. I think that most wars that America has engaged in have been done so to benefit America or to keep American global interests alive. This is nothing unusual, all nations do it. Morality is useful, but not always the primary reasoning behind a war.

With those who regard the free market as a form of oppression?

The global free market seems to be seen as a form of oppression by some people right now, doesn't it? It's a funny world when China is the nation standing up for global free trade.

With those who want the state to control as much of American life as possible?

Yeah, that's fair, that's a traditional Left vs Right clash. I can't disagree with that one.

With those who repeatedly tell America and its black minority that the greatest problems afflicting black Americans are caused by white racism, "white privilege" and "systemic racism"?

I don't think I'm qualified enough to talk about this one, and I think if we tried to talk about this it would go to some ugly places. If there is going to be a civil war...this is one place it might spark, or at the very least some form of civil insurgency.

With those who think that the nuclear family ideal is inherently misogynistic and homophobic?

Again, this is where the average liberal and the extremist will disagree. The average liberal doesn't really care about the nuclear family so long as that family is not prejudicing against homosexuals and women because of their gender or choice of partner. To us liberals, the extremists are just as embarrassing and detrimental to our cause as people like Yubba are to yours. They cloud the waters and rather than work to progress a cause, they tend to damage it further. Unfortunately at this particular time in human history there is a greater tendancy for people to flock towards the extremist viewpoints and that is a great concern for humanity I think.

With those who hold that Israel is the villain in the Middle East?

Well, it doesn't exactly do itself any favours, and even many Israelis are looking at Binnys current policies with a 'Damn son' attitude. Takes two to tango after all, and I think this current Israeli trajectory is not conducive to the long term future of Israel...but again, that's a whole other topic which would clog up this thread.

With those who claim that the term "Islamic terrorist" is an expression of religious bigotry?

:hmmm: I think that term works, the problem comes when you apply it to not just those who conduct terrorism but anyone who happens to share the same religion as them.

I think that covers it. I mean, I dare say I could go off to some left-wing site and find a similar article with a whole list of stuff that says similar things about people on the right, and then you'd come back and say "Well, actually..." and make the sort of statements that I have made about how this is not how all right wing people are like. That not every person who is a Conservative is like the Bundy Bros, or like Richard Spencer. Both sides have their extremists, and both sides need to work towards the middle ground rather than allow their extremists to lead them.

I doubt that this will happen though, sadly.

yubba

01-24-17, 12:26 PM

In other words: You didn't read it. :roll:

I did read it, it was no different from what I heard about it,, a non issue,, the intel community discredited themselves by saying the Russians hacked the election with no viable proof,, again a non issue since none looked into the election fraud of the democrat party and no one went to jail yet..,.
I see the NY Times,, as you see Fox News,, so there is a great devide in what is and what is not and that makes the world a dangerous place,, I don't take much stock in any news agency that is taking money from George Soros

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/05/11/dont-hear-george-soros-ties-30-major-news-organizations.html

moving on Trump got us out of that awful trade deal

Oberon

01-24-17, 12:29 PM

Mr Quatro

01-24-17, 12:39 PM

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-announce-pick-fill-supreme-court-vacancy-next-week-n711396

NEWS JAN 24 2017, 11:58 AM ET
Trump to Announce Pick to Fill Supreme Court Vacancy Next Week

He's faster than I thought ... surely Trump can't be serious about telling women what to do with their bodies?

Oberon

01-24-17, 12:44 PM

surely Trump can't be serious about telling women what to do with their bodies?

He wouldn't be the first guy to do that. :nope:

Dowly

01-24-17, 12:46 PM

I did read it, it was no different from what I heard about it,, a non issue,, the intel community discredited themselves by saying the Russians hacked the election with no viable proof,,
It doesn't matter whether the intelligence community discredited itself or not.

The point is that President Trump chose to lie about there being no rift between him and the int. community and blamed the media for making it look there was. He could have just not say anything about it when he spoke at Langley.

Your President chose to lie to you as one of his very first things in the office about not just one, but multiple issues. All of which could be pointed as lies the moment he said them.

That is the point.

eddie

01-24-17, 12:57 PM

August

01-24-17, 12:59 PM

That is the point.

Yeah so?

Is it any more of a lie than telling people that they could keep their doctor?

AVGWarhawk

01-24-17, 01:27 PM

AVGWarhawk

01-24-17, 01:29 PM

Getting the feeling that the Trump Administration is taking a stance just like the Bush Jr Admin did in the run up to the Iraq War, either agree with us, or you're unpatriotic. Buy everything coming out of Trumps mouth or you are not a true American. yeah, right,lol Want the truth and nothing but the truth, just take your true facts from Spicer and Conway, only they and Fox news really know what the truth is!!:haha::haha:

Now just hold your horses. Joe Biden said everyone should pay more taxes...IT IS YOUR PATRIOTIC DUTY. I guess if I don't pay more taxes I'm not patriotic. So what where you saying about Trump?

Oberon

01-24-17, 01:31 PM

But only Hitlery™ lies, remember? :hmmm:

AVGWarhawk

01-24-17, 01:41 PM

But only Hitlery™ lies, remember? :hmmm:

Nope.

Dowly

01-24-17, 02:25 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELD2AwFN9Nc

:har:

Mr Quatro

01-24-17, 02:34 PM

I can't believe how fast Trump is going:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/congress-abortion-more-expensive_us_58878218e4b070d8cad57fb4

WASHINGTON― The first bill Congress will debate under President Donald Trump is a sweeping anti-abortion bill that would make the procedure more expensive for women.

Yep! He's going after women's rights to decide what happens to their unborn babies. I can't believe it ... it's surely going to fail. I love babies, but you can't tell a woman what to do after this many years of freedom to do what ever it is they please with their body.

I am pro-life too ... this fight was what that women's march Saturday was all about too and the organizers would not let pro-life women march with them, plus the main organizer was a Muslim. Not good says my early senses ... not to mention the rest of the boat Trump is rocking.

Wow! Just five days already ... I can't wait for spring to come and see how good he's doing.

Catfish

01-24-17, 02:38 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELD2AwFN9Nc

:har:

:rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2:

yubba

01-24-17, 03:01 PM

It doesn't matter whether the intelligence community discredited itself or not.

The point is that President Trump chose to lie about there being no rift between him and the int. community and blamed the media for making it look there was. He could have just not say anything about it when he spoke at Langley.

Your President chose to lie to you as one of his very first things in the office about not just one, but multiple issues. All of which could be pointed as lies the moment he said them.

That is the point.

I guess at the time he didn't think there was a rift,,and your fake news blew it out of porportion,, and yet the Democrats fielded a candidate that lied to Congress and the FBI,, Check Mate ,, mate

How come you weren't this upset when Obama and Hillary lied about Benghazi where 4 Americans died,, to save his butt in the 2012 election,,???:hmmm: again Check and Mate..

at no time has any of Trumps lies or actions,, as of yet has cause American deaths

AVGWarhawk

01-24-17, 03:11 PM

I can't believe how fast Trump is going:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/congress-abortion-more-expensive_us_58878218e4b070d8cad57fb4

Yep! He's going after women's rights to decide what happens to their unborn babies. I can't believe it ... it's surely going to fail. I love babies, but you can't tell a woman what to do after this many years of freedom to do what ever it is they please with their body.

I am pro-life too ... this fight was what that women's march Saturday was all about too and the organizers would not let pro-life women march with them, plus the main organizer was a Muslim. Not good says my early senses ... not to mention the rest of the boat Trump is rocking.

Wow! Just five days already ... I can't wait for spring to come and see how good he's doing.

Huffington Post is not the best IMO. BTW, it will be debated. Nothing was sweeping.

Again, Huffington Post hates Trump and is not shy about it. Every article will have a spin from my experience reading Huffington.

Oberon

01-24-17, 03:42 PM

at no time has any of Trumps lies or actions,, as of yet has cause American deaths

What about the fatalities caused by the drinking game during the election debates? :hmmm:

Sailor Steve

01-24-17, 04:07 PM

Was Hillary not the nominee of the democrat party for president ???
What does that have to do with me? You obviously have either never read the majority of my posts, or only remember what's convenient to you.

How many times have I said that I consider myself a true independent? I look at each and every issue and decide on what I think are its own merits. How many times now have I said I voted for neither of the major candidates, finding both equally repugnant? Hillary is a crook, as far as I'm concerned. I don't really think Trump is that dishonest, but I do think he's a clown. I can only hope that he turns out to be better than that. Obama? I didn't think he was all that bad, though I do disagree with his political views. I felt pretty much the same way about Bush.

Do you believe in the constitution and the founding of this great nation
Have you never read any of my several discussions on Constitutional Law? I am very well read, not only the Document itself, but what it's framers had to say about it. Did you know that James Madison, often called "The Father of the Constitution", while one of the few who actually claimed to be a Christian, was absolutely against having Congress open with prayers, and against Congressional chaplains, and especially against said chaplains being paid by the taxpayers? Many on the Right as well as the Left only see what they want to see, and claim Constitutional authority for their own biased agendas, which often have nothing to do with what the Framers intended.

you seem to be left leaning
Not even close. In fact I just said in a reply to you that whenever I take one of those lengthy political tests I always seem to come up smack dab in the middle. I don't do that on purpose; I'm always as honest as I can be with my answers.

so who is doing all the rioting,, certanly it's not us on the right..
I agree. My problem is that I tend to be as centrist as I can be when assessing history. I don't cut any slack for either side, and if I see either side doing something I consider wrong I'll say so. I don't claim to have any answers, or to know the truth about anything, but I also don't trust anyone who claims they do. Trumps lies are relatively minor, but then so were Bill Clinton's. I didn't like him, but I saw the Impeachment Hearings for what they were - a one-sided political witch-hunt. I don't believe Bush lied about Iraq, but I still think going there was a mistake. I don't trust the government, no matter who is running it. I think that anyone who believes that Hillary is evil incarnate and Trump is the Savior is very mistaken, and I equally believe that on anyone who thinks the opposite. No matter who is in charge it doesn't make a whole lot of difference to the final outcome.

As to "left-leaning", it depends on the topic. On some I support the Liberal view, and on other the Conservative view. It all comes down to what the individual subject means in relation to individual liberty. I do think that if you only give knee-jerk support to one side or the other you are limiting your own growth as well as contributing to the problem rather than contributing to the solution.

But that's just me.

Sailor Steve

01-24-17, 04:11 PM

Yeah so?

Is it any more of a lie than telling people that they could keep their doctor?
No, it's not, but a lie is still a lie.

Also, when someone compared today's liars to Bush, weren't you the one who said that it didn't count because Bush was no longer president?

u crank

01-24-17, 04:26 PM

I do think that if you only give knee-jerk support to one side or the other you are limiting your own growth as well as contributing to the problem rather than contributing to the solution.

True. The possibility of discovering something that goes against your beliefs becomes a real and palpable fear. To avoid this one never seeks out apposing viewpoints and the hole just gets deeper. Eventually there is no way out of the hole.

Skybird

01-24-17, 04:45 PM

http://cdn2.spiegel.de/images/image-1098575-860_galleryfree-veza-1098575.png

Trade balances, source: US Trade Ministry, whole year2015. Numbers in billions of $US

I still have not heard that soembody holds wepaons at Amnericn citizen'S sleeves to make them buy foreign products. Its just that the quality and design of American products seems to be less competitive on the global market than those of the internaitonal competitors. What Trump mist uinderstand is that it is not the job of the others to intentionally become weaker and sell less - but that American producers need to become better.

On the currency devaluing, the third world war already is running, and wins in pace. China, Russia, Europe and America as well all spent the last years to fuel it and to deliver a race for devaluing own curency as much as possible. If Trump now condemns China and Europe for that, he attacks others for what the US started with, and what it has practiced since many years.

I assume China likes Trump'S TTP decision. It can comfrotably pick up where the US has left, becoming the dominant hegemon itself. The Pacific and Far East region holds 85% of the global population and 60% of the global economic potential.

eddie

01-24-17, 06:36 PM

Trump orders EPA contract freeze and media blackout, this blackout extends to the Agriculture Dept and the Interior Dept. All media requests or reports will be filtered by one department. What the heck are they afraid of!?!

Seems like Cheney's paranoia has spread to the Trump camp!:haha:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-admin-orders-epa-contract-freeze-and-media-blackout/ar-AAmbKXU?li=BBnb7Kz

eddie

01-24-17, 06:57 PM

Trump says China will not be allowed to keep the islands in the South China Sea. China says yes we will! What is Trump going to do, go to war!?!

Trump wants to move the US Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, now that will work out real well won't it! That move won't make anyone mad,lol Why doesn't he think things through first before he acts, has his common sense gone on vacation? If he has any that is!

Mr Quatro

01-24-17, 07:51 PM

Huffington Post is not the best IMO. BTW, it will be debated. Nothing was sweeping.

Again, Huffington Post hates Trump and is not shy about it. Every article will have a spin from my experience reading Huffington.

Sorry my news link offended you :hmmm: I just grabbed the first one that I could that was pointing in the bad direction that Trump is headed with women's rights.

Hey eddie you know what would be neat? Keep a running track of what you just posted to see where all of this is going. Like this ... Trumps deeds are like on a teletype machine everyday now ... ding, ding, ding.

Trump orders EPA contract freeze and media blackout, this blackout extends to the Agriculture Dept and the Interior Dept. All media requests or reports will be filtered by one department. What the heck are they afraid of!?!

Seems like Cheney's paranoia has spread to the Trump camp!

Trump says China will not be allowed to keep the islands in the South China Sea. China says yes we will! What is Trump going to do, go to war!?!

Trump wants to move the US Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, now that will work out real well won't it! That move won't make anyone mad,lol Why doesn't he think things through first before he acts, has his common sense gone on vacation? If he has any that is!

vienna

01-24-17, 08:18 PM

I guess at the time he didn't think there was a rift,,and your fake news blew it out of porportion,, and yet the Democrats fielded a candidate that lied to Congress and the FBI,, Check Mate ,, mate

How come you weren't this upset when Obama and Hillary lied about Benghazi where 4 Americans died,, to save his butt in the 2012 election,,???:hmmm: again Check and Mate..

at no time has any of Trumps lies or actions,, as of yet has cause American deaths

..and, again, none of the people noted above are sitting in the Oval Office at this moment and they have nothing to do with the current situation; also, the issue was never one of Trump's actions causing deaths, the issue is one of a blatant liar and, quite possibly, a sociopath, holding the seat of executive power in the US. You seem to be full of righteous rage about how others have lied and hold them to very strict standards; are your standards consistent or are they as wobbly as those who you vilify? To loudly proclaim a high moral standard and ground and then to blatantly ignore highly visible instances of the very lack of morality you decry, only when it is convenient to your cause, sounds an awful lot like...oh, what's the word?...oh, yeah, that's it...hypocrisy!...

So, what is it? Did you find an asterisk after "Thou Shalt Not Lie" that the rest of the world didn't find? Or is your morality merely a smoke screen for the fact your position, as stated by yourself, is indefensible?...

...and, oh yeah,...you're a lousy chess player...

<O>

Oberon

01-24-17, 08:57 PM

Onkel Neal

01-24-17, 10:33 PM

Liar, buffoon, egomaniac, who cares, at least he's getting things done.

Trump to sign executive orders enabling construction of proposed border wall and targeting sanctuary cities (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/president-trump-is-planning-to-sign-executive-orders-on-immigration-this-week/2017/01/24/aba22b7a-e287-11e6-a453-19ec4b3d09ba_story.html?utm_term=.91e2f223b561)

Trump takes action to move forward with Keystone, Dakota Access pipelines (http://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/315852-trump-orders-keystone-dakota-access-pipeline-applications-to-move)

I find it amusing that the people who are hyperbolic-crazy angry at the guy are the most like him, personality-wise.:haha:

Oberon

01-24-17, 10:45 PM

Getting things done is one thing.

Getting the right things done...quite another.

August

01-24-17, 10:47 PM

Also, when someone compared today's liars to Bush, weren't you the one who said that it didn't count because Bush was no longer president?

Could have been, :hmmm: depends on the context i suppose. Gotta link?

No, it's not, but a lie is still a lie.That cliche sounds all well and good but the truth is how many people saw the inauguration or didn't is not a lie equal to being sold a hugely expensive government boondoggle like the ACA with knowingly false statements.

This is because the latter lie affected the entire country, the former while yes a lie too i'm beginning to believe is just the presidents way of keeping the opposition fixated on something. Notice how this tripe dominates the discussion but what barely gets mentioned are the real important things he did today, like reopen stalled oil pipelines, meeting with us car execs, muzzling the EPA and raft of other far reaching actions, all crowded out by an stupid argument over nothing. He's playing the media like a fiddle at an Ozark Ho down.

Oberon

01-24-17, 11:51 PM

Send in the Clowns Feds!

:har::har::har::har:

vienna

01-25-17, 01:49 AM

Could have been, :hmmm: depends on the context i suppose. Gotta link?

That cliche sounds all well and good but the truth is how many people saw the inauguration or didn't is not a lie equal to being sold a hugely expensive government boondoggle like the ACA with knowingly false statements.

This is because the latter lie affected the entire country, the former while yes a lie too i'm beginning to believe is just the presidents way of keeping the opposition fixated on something. Notice how this tripe dominates the discussion but what barely gets mentioned are the real important things he did today, like reopen stalled oil pipelines, meeting with us car execs, muzzling the EPA and raft of other far reaching actions, all crowded out by an stupid argument over nothing. He's playing the media like a fiddle at an Ozark Ho down.

So, essentially, you are totally for another lying, duplicitous, arrogant, petty politician sitting in the Oval Office? Way to drain that Swamp! This will surely end government corruption and malfeasance...

By the way, is there any ethical problem you see with Trump approving the pipeline given the CEO of the DAPL donated very large sums of money to Trump's election coffers and to the GOP's various groups and PACs?

Top executive behind Dakota Access has donated more than $100,000 to Trump:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-dakota-access-idUSKCN12Q2P2

Trump Just Green-Lighted Controversial Pipeline Whose CEO Donated Millions to GOP Super PACs:

http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/davidbadash/_president_trump_just_signed_an_executive_order_gr een_lighting_dakota_access_pipeline_in_which_he_ha s_a_financial_interest

Or is there any problem with the fact Trump still has not provided any proof he has, in fact, actually divested himself from pipeline-related holdings? Or should we just rely on Trump's well-documented honesty and integrity?

Mr. Trump is not required to file another disclosure form until later this year. So far, he has not provided documentation of the divestment.

Who benefits from revived Keystone XL and Dakota Access pipelines?:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/who-benefits-from-the-keystone-xl-pipeline-and-dakota-access-pipeline-pros-cons/

<O>

Sailor Steve

01-25-17, 02:56 AM

Could have been, :hmmm: depends on the context i suppose. Gotta link?
Well, there's this one.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2439836&postcount=3154

But I already commented on it at the time.

I had another in mind but I haven't found it yet.

Onkel Neal

01-25-17, 04:25 AM

Getting things done is one thing.

Getting the right things done...quite another.

And that's why Obama sucked. Trying to get the wrong things done.

ikalugin

01-25-17, 05:20 AM

Meanwhile PRC deployes a new DF-41 unit in it's north-eastern regions, to get better coverage of CONUS. Video of the DF-41 TEL:
https://youtu.be/Ep3IHxHCWyY
From the availiable data is appears that DF-41 uses a larger canister than the Topol series of the land mobile ICBMs.

Mr Quatro

01-25-17, 05:38 AM

I find it amusing that the people who are hyperbolic-crazy angry at the guy are the most like him, personality-wise.:haha:

True statement ... but what about all of his double down stuff? Do those people double down too?

I like what one CNN reporter said during the debates pre-election:

"Perception = reality for the people on both sides"

Skybird

01-25-17, 06:57 AM

Liar, buffoon, egomaniac, who cares, at least he's getting things done.

Question is whether he really knows what it is that he gets done. His comments on "American cars" for example reveal an ammount of naivety and lacking information about the real facts of "American made cars" that is hilarious. If you want to buy a car that is mostly build in and made of American-made parts, you either have buy Tesla - or Toyota. LOL Not Chrysler. Not GM. Not Ford. And Tesla said they do not plan to upgrade their cars to later, newer generations of system upgrades, instead they expect their customers to do like with cellphones: buy a whole new car instead. Good luck with that, considering the price tag.

https://tersesystems.com/2011/06/10/the-logic-of-failure/

Also the so-called "Lohhausen experiment", but I found no adequate English text describing it. It is like Tanaland above, just a modern German-like city.

In these settings, system-simlations like Sim City just simulated with a much higher level of detail, accuratesse and reality-like complexity, candidates trying to regulate these systems failed by scores and scores. Even those who manage such systems in real life - they often scored especially bad, compared to "naive" novices to the matter.

Ex falso quod libet (from falsehood, anything follows).

Catfish

01-25-17, 07:17 AM

And that's why Obama sucked. Trying to get the wrong things done.

Which were?
I guess building a wall is the most reasonable thing and right thing to do?
Trump wants to distinguish himself by any means as a doer, and puts up quite a show. Maybe, just maybe it really works out :hmmm:

Dowly

01-25-17, 07:47 AM

yubba

01-25-17, 08:01 AM

[QUOTE=Catfish;2460665]Which were?
[QUOTE]

Gee where to begin,,, oh how about flying the wings off Air Force One on a apology tour around the world,, alienating one of our greatest allies by removing the bust of Churchill ,,, destablized the whole middle east, left 4 Americans to die and lie about it, gave billions to Iran,, financed a coupe in the Ukraine to unseat a democraticly elected leader to cause tensions with Russia,, sent money and personnel to sway the elections in Israel not to mention what he did in Egypt. Failed to secure our borders,,invisioned and put in to law a health care plan that was neither lawful or affordable,,.almost forgot he is the creator of ISIS or ISIL or what ever you perfer to call them,, I know he couldn't muster the courage to call them what they are.. Which were,, you ask now that's funny that's just the tip of the iceberg.

yubba

01-25-17, 08:08 AM

Trump wants to investigate the voter fraud he can't shut up about.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/824227824903090176
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/824228768227217408

Interesting to see, if he is able to accept the result in the event it doesn't show fraud.

And why shouldn't he investigate it ,, the libs all cried that Russia hacked our election,,.. if it weren't for double standards liberals wouldn't have any.. Bernie would be interested wouldn't you think ???

https://www.conservativereview.com/commentary/2016/10/rigged-election-democrat-operative-admits-massive-voter-fraud

Dowly

01-25-17, 08:13 AM

And why shouldn't he investigate it
I didn't say he shouldn't.

yubba

01-25-17, 08:35 AM

I didn't say he shouldn't.

I know how hard it is to accept the results after all the dems cheated as hard as they could and even made the dead rise from the grave and vote for them. I'd be mad too if I was a dem,, but fortunitly I'm not I wouldn't have nothing to laugh at,, and would be angry all the time.

Catfish

01-25-17, 08:42 AM

[QUOTE=Catfish;2460665]Which were?

"Gee where to begin,,, oh how about flying the wings off Air Force One on a apology tour around the world,, "

Yes it was a mistake to assume that the middle east leaders would do anything reasonable, but he at least tried. You know there is a long history of the West muddling in middle east affairs, from the spy war in Afghanistan to oil exploitation in Iran, Iraq and whatnot. Not that you are aware of.
The people there did not like that very much especially when it was not for glorious democracy and freedom, but for hard dollars, by helping dictators like the Shah Reza Pahlevi or Saddam Hussein get in charge and being paid with oil for it. We can see the glorious extension of this practice in appeasing just of All Saudi Arabia, a friend and ally that has laws of the middle ages, and was the mastermind in planning the 9/11 attack, and still breeding new terrorists.

With the revolutionary liberation in Libya and Egypt, a geste like Obama's could have worked, and there could have been a more positive reaction, but Obama came much too late. There has been no western statesman ever to reach out a hand, so they plain did not believe him. And they are now proven right again. The front has hardened in a way that we look ahead at interesting times. You get what you sow.

"alienating one of our greatest allies by removing the bust of Churchill ,,, "

Lie. Small fact check for you, not that you'll read it i know:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/apr/22/barack-obama-winston-churchill-bust-oval-office-britain :doh:

"destablized the whole middle east"

You must be joking. The middle East has been exploited and fought about for centuries, with oil companies and western politicians behaving like in a self service store, and politically like elephants in a porcelain one.
Bush senior and junior surely did all to stabilize, eh? From weapons of mass destruction to accusing the wrong country for 9/11 and starting a war of agggression, and all the bad insurgent states who see such action critically, lmao.

"financed a coupe in the Ukraine to unseat a democraticly elected leader to cause tensions with Russia,,"

The financing of a coup in the Ukraine.. was that so? Wouldn't Obama not have been a hero if it had worked? If Bush had done it it would have been a shining example, if Obama did it its was false. How treacherous to campaign against Russia, eh!
But b.t.w. wasn't it the CIA that initiated that and then screwed it all up?

And "Cause tensions with Russia", oh no how disgusting! I guess Reagan did all to appease them? Bad, bad russians, the leftists and liberals being smashed for just having one positive thing about Russia and are traitors, but when Trump has it Russia is suddenly our best friend and ally? :haha:

"Failed to secure our borders"?

What the hell do you mean? Should Obama have built a wall or what?
Get your drug problem fixed, then maybe the mexican Narcos will change. "Draining the swamp", anyone?

",,invisioned and put in to law a health care plan that was neither lawful or affordable,,"

The US got a socially acceptable health plan of a kind that Bismarck installed in Germany in the 19th century. Maybe this is a bit too modern for you? It also was not against the law, and it is affordable. Look at new carriers and the F35, and tell me why you can't fund your veterans properly, and people who are ill. Trump now deleted it and has not even an alternative plan, how great!

".almost forgot he is the creator of ISIS or ISIL or what ever you perfer to call them,, I know he couldn't muster the courage to call them what they are.."

Obama the creator of Daesh or "ISIL"? lmao. Who invaded Iraq under which president? How did Daesh start, or Al'Quaeda for that matter? By which leaders was and is it being led? Didn't they come from a de-stabilized Iraq?

You are unbelievable, in all aspects of the word :yep:

August

01-25-17, 08:44 AM

Well, there's this one.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2439836&postcount=3154 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2439836&postcount=3154)

Well when you find it let me know because that one has nothing to do with your accusation against me so you're just throwing mud hoping that some will stick.

Skybird

01-25-17, 09:32 AM

Which were?
I guess building a wall is the most reasonable thing and right thing to do?
Its so good to see somebody finally asking this question once again - as if it were the first time being asked and never had been answered before many times by now. But as I repeatedly said before: asking the same queston time and again does not make it any more original.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2458358&postcount=316

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2457904&postcount=9

And I forgot in that post that years ago Obama laughed away warnings of Russia being the big new military enemy and rival once again. He made so many very grave and severe strategic misjudgements, so very many. And instead an insurrance system that America simply cannot afford in this financial format and that adds significantly to the debts level.

I liked Obama personally - his style and humour and contenance. By appearance and behaviour, the Obamas showed great class and grandezza. But his political record is a disaster, sorry. His presidency is the most expensive one ever, I think. And its not as if America did not already have huge debts before, and could afford it.

AVGWarhawk

01-25-17, 09:33 AM

Trump wants to investigate the voter fraud he can't shut up about.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/824227824903090176
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/824228768227217408

Interesting to see, if he is able to accept the result in the event it doesn't show fraud.

True or false, it will finally put that idea to rest. If there is widespread fraud then we have 4 years to sort it out. I believe voting should be done with ID only IMO.

AVGWarhawk

01-25-17, 09:35 AM

And that's why Obama sucked. Trying to get the wrong things done.

Concur 100%.

Dowly

01-25-17, 09:36 AM

I believe voting should be done with ID only IMO.Yep, I agree. :yep:

AVGWarhawk

01-25-17, 09:45 AM

Which were?
I guess building a wall is the most reasonable thing and right thing to do?
Trump wants to distinguish himself by any means as a doer, and puts up quite a show. Maybe, just maybe it really works out :hmmm:

Obama really did much of nothing. Affordable Healthcare Act. That is about it. I can not think of any earth shattering legislation during his term. I could be wrong but I do not remember any of importance. The remaining time was spent under the radar apologizing.

AVGWarhawk

01-25-17, 09:50 AM

Yep, I agree. :yep:

My BIL was not able to vote once. He arrived to vote and was told he already voted. He asked if they a ID was checked. Nope. He could not vote. If anything, perhaps this investigation will produce a standard for every state concerning rules/regulations/types of machines for voting. The vote to allow voting(Dems) with out ID was obviously stacking the deck in their favor for this campaign of 45th POTUS.

Onkel Neal

01-25-17, 10:30 AM

Trump wants to investigate the voter fraud he can't shut up about.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/824227824903090176
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/824228768227217408

Interesting to see, if he is able to accept the result in the event it doesn't show fraud.

Yeah, if he's certain there were millions of fraudulent votes, he should insist on an independent investigation. I doubt there will be any significant fraud, but who knows.

Onkel Neal

01-25-17, 10:33 AM

Which were?
I guess building a wall is the most reasonable thing and right thing to do?
Trump wants to distinguish himself by any means as a doer, and puts up quite a show. Maybe, just maybe it really works out :hmmm:

Yes, stopping illegal immigration is a must and if it takes a wall and jailing a few dozen city mayors to achieve it, that's fine.

Skybird

01-25-17, 10:52 AM

Yes, stopping illegal immigration is a must and if it takes a wall and jailing a few dozen city mayors to achieve it, that's fine.
See with him, he is from Germany. Here in Germany we are basing on the assumption that state sovereignty over territory and borders, and our constitution's demand to protect these, are a crime. Thats why our government's ongoing violation of the constituion is considered to be legal, even an imperative. Of course, moral perfectionists that we are, we demand you Americans to make the same mistakes like we do. We show you the way!

For the consequences, people demanding the dismantling of these legal rules in Germany, usually do not feel responsible for. Paying is expected to be taken care of by others. Even more - we are demanded to like it.

Germany - Where better worlds are made. :yeah:

AVGWarhawk

01-25-17, 11:03 AM

See with him, he is from Germany. Here in Germany we are basing on the assumption that state sovereignty over territory and borders, and our constitution's demand to protect these, are a crime. Thats why our government's ongoing violation of the constituion is considered to be legal, even an imperative. Of course, moral perfectionists that we are, we demand you Americans to make the same mistakes like we do. We show you the way!

For the consequences, people demanding the dismantling of these legal rules in Germany, usually do not feel responsible for. Paying is expected to be taken care of by others. Even more - we are demanded to like it.

Germany - Where better worlds are made. :yeah:

It is no different here in the US. :up:

Mr Quatro

01-25-17, 11:26 AM

Obama really did much of nothing. Affordable Healthcare Act. That is about it. I can not think of any earth shattering legislation during his term. I could be wrong but I do not remember any of importance. The remaining time was spent under the radar apologizing.

In Obama's defence he did manage to reduce the number of his fellow brothers in faith from that dreadful Naval base in Cuba :D

Did you notice this little item on Obama's bucket list:http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4911836,00.html

Obama sends Palestinians $221 million during last hours as president
During his final hours as president of the United States, Barack Obama signed off on a $221 million transfer to the Palestinian Authority; so far, the GOP members of Congress have been holding up the money.

as for Trump's call for voter fraud ... some people are reading this as a way to close the sanctuary cities.

He's a mover and a shaker that's for sure.

How are ya'll doing at work with the Trump name ... so far I at least have the boss on my side,
but I don't know how much longer I can hold out being pro-Trump. :o

Oberon

01-25-17, 12:01 PM

Purge the voter rolls, 3 million false voters, obey infowars!

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2016/nov/18/blog-posting/no-3-million-undocumented-immigrants-did-not-vote-/

http://replygif.net/i/586.gif

AVGWarhawk

01-25-17, 12:10 PM

In Obama's defence he did manage to reduce the number of his fellow brothers in faith from that dreadful Naval base in Cuba :D

Did you notice this little item on Obama's bucket list:http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4911836,00.html

as for Trump's call for voter fraud ... some people are reading this as a way to close the sanctuary cities.

He's a mover and a shaker that's for sure.

How are ya'll doing at work with the Trump name ... so far I at least have the boss on my side,
but I don't know how much longer I can hold out being pro-Trump. :o

Obama campaigned on closing Gitmo right up to the time he was finally nominated and provided the REAL briefing on Gitmo as well as Iraq. Obama changed his demeanor on both.

If I'm not mistake the 221 million was already approved by Congress. Not sure why it appears to be a last shot across the bow. It does not appear to be as such. I have not really looking into the $221. Real question is why? It is handing over of cash like this that Trump is looking to stop.

Correct, sanctuary cites were specifically targeted for allowing a vote without ID. Very blatant. This tactic only embolden the base that supported Trump. In short, really forced their hand to stop being the silent majority and go vote.

I'm not a 100% Trump supporter. Although Trump is our President and I will support as best I can. I was never a Hillary supporter. I do not say much to many concerning Trump and what has happened as well as what lies ahead. I only look to correct the record for those that post fake news and incorrect facts. I have had to unfollow a few FB friends as the lunacy is getting out of hand. I really do not recall seeing so much crack-headed news and articles issued that only look to create issues, divide and uncertainty.

AVGWarhawk

01-25-17, 12:15 PM

Purge the voter rolls, 3 million false voters, obey infowars!

There are quite a few site that one should simply not visit. Infowars is on the top of the list.

As someone has stated, if the Dem where gun-ho on investigating Russia and the election then investigating possible voter fraud is not off the table for Trump.

Personally, I hope gobs of frigging cash are not spent on it!!!!! :doh: I do not think the fraud was widespread. Is there fraud? Certainly. Three million? I'm inclined not to think so.

Bilge_Rat

01-25-17, 12:32 PM

it is much more likely that there was massive voter fraud than that Trump is a Russian spy.:ping:

Yet the same people who laugh off the claims of any voter fraud are just as likely to believe that Trump is a Russian spy despite a total lack of evidence. :haha:

Bilge_Rat

01-25-17, 12:35 PM

I believe voting should be done with ID only IMO.

That is the way it works in every other civilized country, even ultra liberal Canada. It is only a political issue in the USA.

eddie

01-25-17, 12:50 PM

Dowly

01-25-17, 12:56 PM

Sailor Steve

01-25-17, 01:21 PM

Well when you find it let me know because that one has nothing to do with your accusation against me so you're just throwing mud hoping that some will stick.

Not really. The point is that when their guy does it it's a big deal, but when our guy does it's old news. Calling out one side for something but not the other is a bit...well, one-sided. Goose and Gander?

Bilge_Rat

01-25-17, 01:32 PM

Oh crap, I forgot all about where the claim originated from! :rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2:

well no, it was more complicated than that, it all started when a Dem activist, labeled as a "computer scientist" in the "mainstream" media made a claim based on extremely thin data that the Russians has hacked the voting machines in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. :rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2:

Dem donors promptly threw $7 million plus at Jill Stein so she could start a recount. :har::har::har:

The "mainstream" media reported on the "Russian" hacking "report" very seriously. :haha::haha::haha:

A Gop activist (not Alex Jones) using data which was as "valid" as that used by the "computer scientist" made an estimate that up to 3 million votes may have been illegally cast. Trump, who was understandably upset about the Russian hacking theory and recount re-tweeted it.

The "mainstream" media was aghast that Trump would make this claim, even though they were buying the "russian" hacking fable, hook, line and sinker. :yep::yep::yep:

I don't believe there was significant voter fraud, just like I do not believe Trump is a Russian spy, but if you are going to investigate one myth, you might as well investigate another. :O::O::O:

Sailor Steve

01-25-17, 01:42 PM

I have had to unfollow a few FB friends as the lunacy is getting out of hand. I really do not recall seeing so much crack-headed news and articles issued that only look to create issues, divide and uncertainty.
Same here. I've dumped several old acquaintances on FaceBook, on both sides of this election. When a couple asked why, my response was the same: "I love a good debate, but posting one side or the other's attack pictures is not debate. I could even live with that, but five or six of them every day? When three people on each side are doing that, it comes to wading through thirty or more pictures just to get to an actual discussion."

On the other hand I was unfriended myself on one occasion, when I challenged one attack picture as being an out-and-out lie. When I proved it. I got dumped. C'est la vie.

AVGWarhawk

01-25-17, 01:55 PM

Same here. I've dumped several old acquaintances on FaceBook, on both sides of this election. When a couple asked why, my response was the same: "I love a good debate, but posting one side or the other's attack pictures is not debate. I could even live with that, but five or six of them every day? When three people on each side are doing that, it comes to wading through thirty or more pictures just to get to an actual discussion."

On the other hand I was unfriended myself on one occasion, when I challenged one attack picture as being an out-and-out lie. When I proved it. I got dumped. C'est la vie.

Steve, Exactly. The political meme, fake news and general nonsense took the enjoyment of FB(of what little it has) right out of it.

I have not been unfriend yet for any discussion. I may have been unfollowed. We are not notified if a friend unfollows so we never know when it happens. I have unfollowed enough that all I read is my wifes recipes, daughters postings and my own stuff. :har:

STEED

01-25-17, 02:46 PM

August

01-25-17, 03:30 PM

Not really. The point is that when their guy does it it's a big deal, but when our guy does it's old news. Calling out one side for something but not the other is a bit...well, one-sided. Goose and Gander?

Not at all. Whatever the by-then-retired Bush may have done or not done in the past had absolutely no bearing on a current candidate in the upcoming election. Surely you agree with that, or do you believe that any questionable action by any president at any point in the nations history gives current and future presidents leave to do the same thing?

AVGWarhawk

01-25-17, 03:37 PM

Trump you are falling for it again, so what Hillary won the popular vote its the electoral college vote that puts you in the White House and where are you Mr Trump? The White House you won so stop being deflecting with all this stuff you should not bother with.

I'm fine with Trump investigating voter fraud. Remember that the Dems changed the rules to no ID required to vote(stacking the deck). That means anyone that breaths can vote. That is a problem. Truth be told, even if one person voted who was not legally qualified to do so it is fraud. Double voting. Dead people voting. These issues have appeared at every election. It is time to have a standard for all states. It is taking Trump to do it. Past administration figured they won and let it go.

Oberon

01-25-17, 03:38 PM

http://europe.newsweek.com/trump-emails-rnc-reince-priebus-white-house-server-548191?rm=eu

Emails!

EEEEEEEEEEEEMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAILS!!

:k_confused::k_confused::k_confused::k_confused::k _confused::k_confused:

Onkel Neal

01-25-17, 03:52 PM

You feeling ok?

STEED

01-25-17, 03:55 PM

I'm fine with Trump investigating voter fraud. Remember that the Dems changed the rules to no ID required to vote(stacking the deck). That means anyone that breaths can vote. That is a problem. Truth be told, even if one person voted who was not legally qualified to do so it is fraud. Double voting. Dead people voting. These issues have appeared at every election. It is time to have a standard for all states. It is taking Trump to do it. Past administration figured they won and let it go.

I'm not bothered about the investigation just stop keep going on about it Trump. Well that is to say that is how its been reported here, Hilary fixation.

Catfish

01-25-17, 04:08 PM

Emails!
EEEEEEEEEEEEMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAILS!!

I guess the emails have been printed out, just to make sure. And then they buried them, from 10:00 you can see where :O:

AVGWarhawk

01-25-17, 04:16 PM

I'm not bothered about the investigation just stop keep going on about it Trump. Well that is to say that is how its been reported here, Hilary fixation.

I believe this behavior and fixation with the election and results stem from Trump narcissistic personality. He likes "winning" and winning big. He has never been shy about that.

Mr Quatro

01-25-17, 04:34 PM

I believe this behavior and fixation with the election and results stem from Trump narcissistic personality. He likes "winning" and winning big. He has never been shy about that.

If Trump is off the mark on these silly crowd counts, voting fraud, namely illegal's voting and the pro-Russian thing and the media not on his side ...

then what else is he off the mark on? Will he change or somewhere along the line prove that we can no longer trust his mind to deal with reality?

The Stock market likes Trump ... :yep:

Buddahaid

01-25-17, 04:39 PM

Bilge_Rat

01-25-17, 04:42 PM

apparently, this is where the "3 million" figure comes from:

Presidential nominee Hillary Clinton is urging Democrats to join her campaign to help find new voters who would be willing to support her in November

“We are hiring organizers here and between now and election day, we are going to register 3 million more people,” she said at the close of her DNC campaign speech. “We are not just going to register them, we are going to get them to commit to vote.”

Clinton’s plan was announced at an NAACP rally, when she told Democrats that it was more important than ever to build up their voting rolls for victory.

She revealed that campaign employees and volunteers would be going to minor league baseball games, college campuses, barbershops, hair salons, and street corners. Clinton also touted her campaign’s new voter registration tool in both English and Spanish languages.

http://www.breitbart.com/2016-presidential-race/2016/08/01/hillarys-plan-victory-register-3-million-new-voters/?utm_campaign=VotersTrust%2BNewsletter&utm_medium=web&utm_source=VotersTrust_Newsletter_1

http://electionnightgatekeepers.com/did-you-land-on-this-page-seeking-documentation-that-3-million-illegal-immigrants-voted-for-hillary-clinton/

personally I agree it makes no sense for Trump to dig this up again, he won and is now the President.

Bilge_Rat

01-25-17, 04:47 PM

now on a lighter note:

-Trump really likes his new digs:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/25/us/politics/president-trump-white-house.html

-He cares how his aides dress, even Bannon is wearing a suit:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2017/01/25/the-trump-white-house-has-a-knack-for-costuming-dont-let-it-distract-you/

Platapus

01-25-17, 05:10 PM

now on a lighter note:

-Trump really likes his new digs:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/25/us/politics/president-trump-white-house.html

“The world’s most secure system,” he added, laughing. “The words just explode in the air.”

The words just explode in the air? (face palm)

mapuc

01-25-17, 05:20 PM

It's not much I can contribute with except saying it's a very interesting discussion you have about the new President.

The only thing a could provide with is this story from IFL-Science

http://www.iflscience.com/environment/trump-administration-orders-communications-blackout-for-us-scientists/

We now live in the Orwellian world of “alternative facts

Is IFL right about this ?

Markus

Oberon

01-25-17, 05:24 PM

I guess the emails have been printed out, just to make sure. And then they buried them, from 10:00 you can see where :O:

Maybe they'll build the wall out of them? :yeah:

Oberon

01-25-17, 05:27 PM

for Trump to dig this up again, he won and is now the President.

But he didn't get the popular vote, and that is under his skin. :03:

Besides, if the Dems really did register 3 million zombie votes, then why didn't they actually do that in the states where it mattered...to, you know, win the thing. :03:

u crank

01-25-17, 05:58 PM

Besides, if the Dems really did register 3 million zombie votes, then why didn't they actually do that in the states where it mattered...to, you know, win the thing. :03:

Come on, I think you know. Wisconsin is a long way from the border. :D

August

01-25-17, 08:29 PM

But he didn't get the popular vote, and that is under his skin. :03:

Besides, if the Dems really did register 3 million zombie votes, then why didn't they actually do that in the states where it mattered...to, you know, win the thing. :03:

Maybe they did but just botched the deployment?

Oberon

01-25-17, 08:33 PM

Maybe they did but just botched the deployment?

That's a fair point, zombies are pretty hard to deploy, they tend to wander off at random. :yep:

August

01-25-17, 09:50 PM

That's a fair point, zombies are pretty hard to deploy, they tend to wander off at random. :yep:

Well I don't know about zombies or any of the other fantasy creatures that may be running around in your head :) but the so called zombie voters are tied to actual persons who had valid addresses. It'd be very difficult and expensive to transfer a dead persons voter registration to another district.

yubba

01-25-17, 11:11 PM

Well I don't know about zombies or any of the other fantasy creatures that may be running around in your head :) but the so called zombie voters are tied to actual persons who had valid addresses. It'd be very difficult and expensive to transfer a dead persons voter registration to another district.

that's what happens when they put 3 million eggs in one basket,,, we are not a democracy,, so mob rule in one state doesn't count,,, those founding fathers were some smart cookies,,, ain't freedom great,, Trump won 33 states :hmmm: that's more that's way more than half,,, after watching the protests a democrat would be hard pressed to be voted dog catcher..

em2nought

01-25-17, 11:43 PM

I'm thinking that Trump is going to be comparable to this guy, and that isn't such a bad thing. :up:
http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/rickover-time-cover-01.jpg

vienna

01-26-17, 01:25 AM

Well, I don't know what the other states did prior to last November's election, but the hue and cry over the issue of possible 'massive' voter fraud was a major impetus for the County Registrars in California to do a very much more thorough scrubbing of the voter rolls in advance of the Election Day. I would suspect there was a similar reaction in a very large number of counties across the US, particularly in major and secondary city areas where one would find not only the highest concentration of registered voters but, also, the largest number of possible 'questionable' voters. That said, it would be a good guess last November's voter rolls were quite possibly the 'cleanest' in recent history: after all, if you are the official in charge of the voter rolls, wouldn't it be reasonable to anticipate, regardless of who won the popular vote, your methods and records keeping might be called into question? Wouldn't you value you job enough to ensure possible malfeasance would not be the cause of the loss of that job?...

So, yes, there should be an independent investigation of possible voter fraud. However, given the great tumult raised by the fringes and by Trump prior to the election, it is very reasonable to anticipate they may not get the result they seek and, in turn, severely weaken whatever political currency they may have accrued...

<O>

Catfish

01-26-17, 03:15 AM

[...]
http://www.iflscience.com/environment/trump-administration-orders-communications-blackout-for-us-scientists/
Is IFL right about this ? Markus

"Trump Administration Orders Communications Blackout For US Scientists" :o
Next: Orwell's MiniTruth.

Does Trump intend to reign only with decrees, like a king? Is that even legal in a democracy?
What happens if any community fights back against the president's orders, or decrees? :hmmm:

vienna

01-26-17, 04:34 AM

"Trump Administration Orders Communications Blackout For US Scientists" :o
Next: Orwell's MiniTruth.

Apparently, the rise of the Trump regime has also raised the people's awareness and/or recollection of the of the Orwell dystopia:

Not an 'alternative fact': George Orwell's '1984' tops Amazon's bestseller list:

http://www.latimes.com/books/jacketcopy/la-et-jc-george-orwell-20170125-story.html

I guess if we are devolving into 'Duckspeak', who better to occasion this than someone named "Donald"...

I'm looking forward to Conway and/or Spicer to start telling us everything Trump does is "PlusGood! DoublePlusGood!"...

Does Trump intend to reign only with decrees, like a king? Is that even legal in a democracy?
What happens if any community fights back against the president's orders, or decrees? :hmmm:

Does anyone else recall the fairly recent uproar, indignation, and outright condemnation regarding Executive Orders, the furrowed brows, the scowls, and the wagging, warning fingers over 'imperial presidency' and the shameful arrogation of power? I sometimes wonder if those who so decried are in any fear of their heads twisting off from having to turn back and forth, along with their views, so rapidly; perhaps they, like Regan in "The Exorcist", are are equipped with easily swiveling heads...

<O>

Nippelspanner

01-26-17, 05:51 AM

Dowly

01-26-17, 05:55 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPw-3e_pzqU
:haha:

Oberon

01-26-17, 06:47 AM

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/glee/images/5/58/There-is-no-escape.jpg

August

01-26-17, 08:05 AM

For 8 years a certain type of Republicans acted as if Obama declares himself dictator for life and sends out his evil, gun-jacking nazi-dentists to take away everyone's or at least someone's freedom and rights..... Aaaany minute now...

And of course nothing ever happened.

Of course not, just as a certain type of Democrat acted as if George Bush (either of them) declared himself dictator for life and sent out his evil, gun-jacking nazi-dentists to take away everyone's or at least someone's freedom and rights.

Donald Dumb is president for a few hours and he already pulls stunts that make any remotely sane person lose hope for mankind.
Meanwhile, his voters are still busy circle jerking because now of course milk and honey will flow again, so they don't realize the wide open box of Pandora they did open for everyone.

And here you go beginning yet another turn on this never ending circle of fanatical thinking.

Let's see what will win in the end. His supporters (wrong) pride, ignorance and political stupidity... or honesty and the ability to concede a tremendous mistake.

What mistake? Not electing Hillary Clinton? Please.

Unfortunately, I already presume the answer to my, granted, rather loaded question.

Calling it "rather" loaded is like saying Rambo was "rather" armed.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/3gnj28bwZfg2I/200_s.gif

yubba

01-26-17, 08:09 AM

well where would you begin looking for republican voter fraud,,, wasn't it the democrats crying that you shouldn't have a ID to vote..http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=200&pictureid=9325

Mr Quatro

01-26-17, 08:21 AM

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=200&pictureid=9325

Looks like a flu season chart to me :yep:

MaDef

01-26-17, 08:26 AM

That is the way it works in every other civilized country, even ultra liberal Canada. It is only a political issue in the USA.
That's because it's seen by the ACLU as a way to keep poor people (read black/minorities) from voting, and has it's roots in the civil rights movement.

MaDef

01-26-17, 09:32 AM

For 8 years a certain type of Republicans acted as if Obama declares himself dictator for life and sends out his evil, gun-jacking nazi-dentists to take away everyone's or at least someone's freedom and rights..... Aaaany minute now...

And of course nothing ever happened.

Donald Dumb is president for a few hours and he already pulls stunts that make any remotely sane person lose hope for mankind.
Meanwhile, his voters are still busy circle jerking because now of course milk and honey will flow again, so they don't realize the wide open box of Pandora they did open for everyone.

Let's see what will win in the end. His supporters (wrong) pride, ignorance and political stupidity... or honesty and the ability to concede a tremendous mistake.
Unfortunately, I already presume the answer to my, granted, rather loaded question.That's because you're on the outside looking in, ignore what the media & political pundits say, the predominate reason Donald Trump is now the President of the United States is because He IS NOT a politician. as to whether that was a blunder or not, remains to be seen.

Oberon

01-26-17, 09:45 AM

So, a cool $20-25b onto the national debt.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/142/feelsgood.jpg

vienna

01-26-17, 10:25 AM

That's because it's seen by the ACLU as a way to keep poor people (read black/minorities) from voting, and has it's roots in the civil rights movement.

Actually, there has been, in the past, a rather vocal opposition to voter ID from those of the Far-Right end of the spectrum. I recall listening to talk radio shows from the 60s through the 80s and there were always some Right Wing caller who would get all het up when the subject of national IDs came up and voter IDs were right up there on their list of 'gubbamint' efforts to be resisted; their thinking was any form of standardized, universal ID, even on a state level, was just another means of the Big Brother 'commanists' trying to account for every citizen, at all times, and, ya know, once they got you in their files, they was a commin' ta git ya! It was akin to the current tinfoil hat crowd's obsession with subcutaneous RFID chips and the like and their belief any form of mass ID is just a ploy to get us in a massive database. The big difference now is that the Right is pushing the idea they once held in suspicion and the Left is now opposing with new suspicions. Maybe, in another twenty or thirty years, the roles will be reversed again...

<O>

vienna

01-26-17, 10:32 AM

That's because it's seen by the ACLU as a way to keep poor people (read black/minorities) from voting, and has it's roots in the civil rights movement.

It doesn't help the pro voter ID cause that a great many of the current states enacting such ID laws are the same ones that enacted, in the past, discriminatory measures such as poll taxes and the like and were only stopped when the 24th Amendment was passed in 1964. If the major push had come in states not so tainted with prior discriminatory voter practices, the current debate may have been much less divisive...

<O>

ikalugin

01-26-17, 11:10 AM

like and their belief any form of mass ID is just a ploy to get us in a massive database.
They should study Russian experience.

When we have tried to make a singular ID/electronic card (ID, debit card, public transport pass, insurance policy document - it was one card to rule them all) we found out that there is no general/common database for the interior passports (primary ID document of a citizen).

So even in a such "evill" state as Russia one can have a primary ID (that everyone has) without a such database.

Sailor Steve

01-26-17, 11:10 AM

Not at all. Whatever the by-then-retired Bush may have done or not done in the past had absolutely no bearing on a current candidate in the upcoming election. Surely you agree with that, or do you believe that any questionable action by any president at any point in the nations history gives current and future presidents leave to do the same thing?
Yes, I do agree, which is why I brought it up in the first place. Your counter to the accusation of Trump's lies was a comment on Obama, who is no longer in office. As I said, goose and gander?

ikalugin

01-26-17, 11:12 AM

Sailor Steve

01-26-17, 11:25 AM

By the way, how is it possible for a civilised country not to have a primary citizen ID?
The country was originally a coalition of thirteen smaller countries, which is why today they are still called States and not Provinces. Every State has its own ID, usually a driver's license. If one is not able to obtain a license, or doesn't care to drive, there are State ID cards available, at least where I live. Proof of State citizenship is considered proof of US citizenship.

I mean, how does one prove that he is a US citizen if so required? How about passport that people use to traval abroad, wont everyone have one?
State Department records say that only 36% of Americans hold passports. I haven't had one since I was twelve, and that was 1962.

MaDef

01-26-17, 11:40 AM

Actually, there has been, in the past, a rather vocal opposition to voter ID from those of the Far-Right end of the spectrum. I recall listening to talk radio shows from the 60s through the 80s and there were always some Right Wing caller who would get all het up when the subject of national IDs came up and voter IDs were right up there on their list of 'gubbamint' efforts to be resisted; their thinking was any form of standardized, universal ID, even on a state level, was just another means of the Big Brother 'commanists' trying to account for every citizen, at all times, and, ya know, once they got you in their files, they was a commin' ta git ya! It was akin to the current tinfoil hat crowd's obsession with subcutaneous RFID chips and the like and their belief any form of mass ID is just a ploy to get us in a massive database. The big difference now is that the Right is pushing the idea they once held in suspicion and the Left is now opposing with new suspicions. Maybe, in another twenty or thirty years, the roles will be reversed again...<O> Related but not the same, A national ID requirement is different than just a voter id requirement. As far as I'm aware there are no laws requiring a citizen to carry ID papers. The voter ID laws are more akin to a drivers license (you don't need one unless you are operating a motor vehicle). So you won't need to show ID except at the polls to show you are in fact eligible to vote.

Nippelspanner

01-26-17, 11:49 AM

Of course not, just as a certain type of Democrat acted as if George Bush (either of them) declared himself dictator for life and sent out his evil, gun-jacking nazi-dentists to take away everyone's or at least someone's freedom and rights.
Uh, yeah, don't we all remember the countless debates about any of the bush presidents want to become dictators...

And please enlighten me how my post or my views are "fanatical".
Either, you simply don't know what fanatical means, or by now you have to reflect on a whole new level to not see yourself in that accusation.
Of all the people here*, you are the resident nationalist who argues based on national pride instead of reason or - god beware - facts (maybe alternate facts?).
You are the one that told people of other nations to keep out of "American topics". You are the one who had to be reminded by Neal, who I consider very patriotic, what freedom of speech, expression and this forum is about - multiple times!

But sure, go ahead and tell me what a fanatic I am. What a joke!

*I excluded yubba because he is either just a master troll or simply a lost case, he simply doesn't matter.

MaDef

01-26-17, 11:51 AM

By the way, how is it possible for a civilised country not to have a primary citizen ID?

I mean, how does one prove that he is a US citizen if so required? How about passport that people use to traval abroad, wont everyone have one?

The individual states have their own ID cards, they are generally recognized from one state to another for ID purposes. The ONLY ID you need to prove citizenship inside the U.S. is a birth certificate and social security #. (both issued at birth) One issued via the state where the birth occurred, the other via the Federal government.

MaDef

01-26-17, 12:00 PM

. Proof of State citizenship is considered proof of US citizenship. I think that may not be true in the near future, The TSA is getting ready to start rejecting ID cards from certain states beginning next year. So expect the idea of a national ID card to be front and center again in the next 5-10 years.

ikalugin

01-26-17, 12:11 PM

The individual states have their own ID cards, they are generally recognized from one state to another for ID purposes. The ONLY ID you need to prove citizenship inside the U.S. is a birth certificate and social security #. (both issued at birth) One issued via the state where the birth occurred, the other via the Federal government.
Is it correct to assume then that every citizen has both social security number and the birth certificate?

If so, why not attach voting registration to them?

Bilge_Rat

01-26-17, 12:26 PM

so it turns out there has been at least one scientific study on potential voter fraud which concluded it could be as high as 15%.

In spite of substantial public controversy, very little reliable data exists concerning the
frequency with which non-citizen immigrants participate in United States elections.
Although such participation is a violation of election laws in most parts of the United
States, enforcement depends principally on disclosure of citizenship status at the time of
voter registration. This study examines participation rates by non-citizens using a nationally
representative sample that includes non-citizen immigrants. We find that some
non-citizens participate in U.S. elections, and that this participation has been large enough
to change meaningful election outcomes including Electoral College votes, and Congressional
elections. Non-citizen votes likely gave Senate Democrats the pivotal 60th vote
needed to overcome filibusters in order to pass health care reform and other Obama
administration priorities in the 111th Congress.

see the abstract, and

Our exploration of non-citizen voting in the 2008 presidential
election found that most non-citizens did not register
or vote in 2008, but some did. The proportion of noncitizens
who voted was less than fifteen percent, but
significantly greater than zero. Similarly in 2010 we found
that more than three percent of non-citizens reported
voting.

These results speak to both sides of the debate concerning
non-citizen enfranchisement. They support the
claims made by some anti-immigration organizations
that non-citizens participate in U.S. elections. In addition,
the analysis suggests that non-citizens' votes have
changed significant election outcomes including the
assignment of North Carolina's 2008 electoral votes, and
the pivotal Minnesota Senate victory of Democrat Al
Franken in 2008.

However, our results also support the arguments made
by voting and immigrant rights organizations that the
portion of non-citizen immigrants who participate in U.S.
elections is quite small. Indeed, given the extraordinary
efforts made by the Obama and McCain campaigns to
mobilize voters in 2008, the relatively small portion of noncitizens
who voted in 2008 likely exceeded the portion of
non-citizens voting in other recent U.S. elections.

see conclusions.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Do-Non-Citizens-Vote-in-US-Elections-Richman-et-al.pdf

p.s. - let the games begin...my popcorn is ready. :ping:

ikalugin

01-26-17, 12:33 PM

This is very strange to me. If anyone organised elections this way in Russia he would be literally lynched by the US sponsored activists with the silent consent of the state.

Because this appears to be very vulnerable to fraud, to the point where I would suspect deliberate criminal negligence.

Even if there was no fraud this should be changed.

Skybird

01-26-17, 12:45 PM

Dowly

01-26-17, 12:46 PM

so it turns out there has been at least one scientific study on potential voter fraud which concluded it could be as high as 15%.Jesse Richman, the co-author of that study has this to say:

“Trump and others have been misreading our research and exaggerating our results to make claims we don’t think our research supports,”
[..]
“I’m not sure why they continue to do it, but there’s not much I can do about that aside from set the record straight.”Source: https://www.wired.com/2017/01/author-trumps-favorite-voter-fraud-study-says-everyones-wrong/

Bilge_Rat

01-26-17, 12:58 PM

Source: https://www.wired.com/2017/01/author-trumps-favorite-voter-fraud-study-says-everyones-wrong/

well from the same article:

What they found suggested that 6.4 percent of non-citizens voted in 2008, while 2.2 percent of non-citizens voted in 2010.

Richman himself is not backing down from his initial findings. He says that even if some people did check the wrong citizenship box, enough respondents repeatedly reported voting as non-citizens to indicate that some non-citizens do in fact vote. Even some of Richman’s detractors, such as Rick Hasen, author of the Election Law Blog, acknowledge that “non-citizen voting is a real, if relatively small, problem.” Richman says those on the left are just as wrong to reflexively claim that voter fraud doesn’t exist at all as Trump is to continue insisting voter fraud is a national conspiracy.

MaDef

01-26-17, 12:58 PM

Is it correct to assume then that every citizen has both social security number and the birth certificate?

If so, why not attach voting registration to them? all voting is done locally as well as counted.

for example:

I was born just outside of Boston Which is stated on my birth certificate.
I currently live outside of San Diego.

The only office I can vote for no matter where I live in the U.S is President/Vice President
Any other votes I cast are dependent on where in the country I live.

AVGWarhawk

01-26-17, 01:01 PM

LINK - The State Department’s entire senior management team just resigned (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/josh-rogin/wp/2017/01/26/the-state-departments-entire-senior-management-team-just-resigned/?utm_term=.59cee6a34cd1)

Typical turnover. Some were on the way out anyway. Others retire. At the end of the day, if you can't take the heat.....

AVGWarhawk

01-26-17, 01:03 PM

Jesse Richman, the co-author of that study has this to say:

Source: https://www.wired.com/2017/01/author-trumps-favorite-voter-fraud-study-says-everyones-wrong/

Further study that does not require a scientist found that just one person who is not legally allowed to vote but does vote is considered voter fraud.

For me, it is not numbers of people who may or may not have committed voter fraud, it is the fact that their is some fraud.

MaDef

01-26-17, 01:03 PM

LINK - The State Department’s entire senior management team just resigned (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/josh-rogin/wp/2017/01/26/the-state-departments-entire-senior-management-team-just-resigned/?utm_term=.59cee6a34cd1) 5 people out of 13,0000 and at that level they are figureheads, really don't think it will effect a whole lot, other than the tone of business

Bilge_Rat

01-26-17, 01:12 PM

so lets crunch some numbers, there are an estimated 11 million illegal aliens living in the USA (2012 figures).

if 14% voted (probably too high), that is around 1.5 million votes;

if 5 % voted (probably closer to the real figure according to the study, i.e. 6.8% in 2008), that is still over 500K votes;

Oberon

01-26-17, 01:28 PM

Theresa May has indicated that some parts of UK intel sharing with the US could be cut if the Donald goes ahead with his torture plans.

Oh, and the Doomsday clock just got moved 30 seconds forward, so that's fun! :yeah:

Skybird

01-26-17, 01:47 PM

5 people out of 13,0000 and at that level they are figureheads, really don't think it will effect a whole lot, other than the tone of business

Don'T mistake quantity for quality. Experience is not measured in number of heads.

Quote:

"It’s the single biggest simultaneous departure of institutional memory that anyone can remember, and that’s incredibly difficult to replicate,” said David Wade, who served as State Department chief of staff under Secretary of State John Kerry. “Department expertise in security, management, administrative and consular positions in particular are very difficult to replicate and particularly difficult to find in the private sector.”

Several senior foreign service officers in the State Department’s regional bureaus have also left their posts or resigned since the election. But the emptying of leadership in the management bureaus is more disruptive because those offices need to be led by people who know the department and have experience running its complicated bureaucracies. There’s no easy way to replace that via the private sector, said Wade.

“Diplomatic security, consular affairs, there’s just not a corollary that exists outside the department, and you can least afford a learning curve in these areas where issues can quickly become matters of life and death,” he said. “The muscle memory is critical. These retirements are a big loss. They leave a void. These are very difficult people to replace."

MaDef

01-26-17, 01:49 PM

I think this voter fraud is getting everyone confused. to tell the truth I would not be surprised if in fact there were 2-3 million fraudulent votes. that's 2.1% of the total ballots cast.

This news story implies that there was a "scheme" by the DNC to effect the popular vote. I think the more likely explanation is that since there are 435 voting districts, the local politicos tried to effect the outcome of whatever hot button topic was foremost in some of those districts. and that's where I think you'll find most if not all the voter fraud this election cycle.

Dowly

01-26-17, 01:52 PM

Bilge_Rat

01-26-17, 02:06 PM

I tracked down how he gets to 3 million or rather 2.8 million. This is the relevant extract from the Richman study:

Taking the least conservative measure e at
least one indicator showed that the respondent voted e
yields an estimate that between 7.9% and 14.7% percent
of non-citizens voted in 2008. Since the adult noncitizen
population of the United States was roughly
19.4 million (CPS, 2011), the number of non-citizen
voters (including both uncertainty based on normally
distributed sampling error, and the various combinations
of verified and reported voting) could range from just
over 38,000 at the very minimum to nearly 2.8 million at
the maximum.

The adjusted estimate of 6.4 percent for 2008 is quite substantial,
and would be associated with 1.2 million noncitizen
votes cast in 2008 if the weighted CCES sample is
fully representative of the non-citizen population

pp. 152-153.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Do-Non-Citizens-Vote-in-US-Elections-Richman-et-al.pdf

Now the study is far from definitive, as someone who often works with statistics, their method where you take a small sample size and extrapolate to a much larger group can easily lead to a gross over- or under- representation.

The only thing the study really shows is that there probably is an issue, but no one knows how big it is.

MaDef

01-26-17, 02:15 PM

interesting note: that 2.8 million number is the same number of votes that Clinton won with. 2,864,974 :hmmm:

Dowly

01-26-17, 02:21 PM

Now the study is far from definitive, as someone who often works with statistics, their method where you take a small sample size and extrapolate to a much larger group can easily lead to a gross over- or under- representation.

The only thing the study really shows is that there probably is an issue, but no one knows how big it is.Yep, and it should be investigated, and hopefully changes are made to the voting process that these things would not be possible so easily. Be it ID only voting or something else, I don't know.

The study is from 2008, so that's 8+ years ago, so maybe this investigation sheds some light to today's situation.

yubba

01-26-17, 02:51 PM

Yep, and it should be investigated, and hopefully changes are made to the voting process that these things would not be possible so easily. Be it ID only voting or something else, I don't know.

The study is from 2008, so that's 8+ years ago, so maybe this investigation sheds some light to today's situation.

Wow, look who's in the middle of the road,, some people think it's racist to make people show ID to vote. play frogger much ??? :doh: I'm ashamed to say I didn't vote because I'm between homes not having one and not having one so I didn't have a legal address to register I probably voted democrat if it makes you feel better.

eddie

01-26-17, 02:53 PM

One thing interesting about what Trump has said about illegal voting is that a lot of illegal votes came in because people are registered to vote in 2 states. He better check the people that work for him then,lol

"With Kushner, The Washington Post has now identified four Trump family members or top administration appointees who were registered in two states during last fall's election. The others are chief White House strategist Stephen K. Bannon (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/01/25/steven-bannon-was-registered-to-vote-in-two-states-despite-his-efforts-to-take-himself-off-the-rolls-in-florida/?utm_term=.0f34701f4993); Tiffany Trump, the president's youngest daughter; and Treasury Secretary nominee Steven Mnuchin, as first reported (http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/25/politics/kfile-mnuchin-voter-registration/index.html) by CNN."

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/it-turns-out-trump-son-in-law-jared-kushner-is-also-registered-to-vote-in-two-states/ar-AAmhpvk?li=BBnb7Kz

Wonder if Trumps personal phone is secure yet. And what is going on with Conway and Bannon using private email accounts through the RNC server?

Trump wants to send in the Feds if Chicago can't get the shootings under control there, what's he going to do in Chicago, declare Martial Law and take away their guns!!!!????!!!!!!!!!!

Sailor Steve

01-26-17, 03:01 PM

I think that may not be true in the near future, The TSA is getting ready to start rejecting ID cards from certain states beginning next year. So expect the idea of a national ID card to be front and center again in the next 5-10 years.

Great. :doh:

Dowly

01-26-17, 03:18 PM

Wow, look who's in the middle of the road,,Have I said there is no vote fraud? I think all I have said on the matter is that Trump claims 3-5million frauds and he needs to prove it?

some people think it's racist to make people show ID to vote.Some people, not me. play frogger much ??? :doh:Not since I had my Commodore 64.

Ps. You do realise I am from Finland, the country, not Finland, MI? I have no horse in this race, just my hunger for the facts, which I try to satiate as best as I can.

Oberon

01-26-17, 03:35 PM

Great. :doh:

Ihre Papiere bitte.

:salute:

Dowly

01-26-17, 03:37 PM

Ihre Papiere bitte.

:salute:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e28KhpWkwbM
I had so much fun playing that. So much fun. It was great.

Skybird

01-26-17, 03:39 PM

Somebody writes on Twitter: ...................................... Too cowardly?! Me?!?
"Trump is far too cowardly ............................................... I will teach him!
to press the red button!"

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/images/feige_ts/19284380/2-format10.jpg
source: Der Tagesspiegel

AVGWarhawk

01-26-17, 03:50 PM

@AVGWarhawk @Bilge_Rat

Perhaps I should clarify my position on this voter fraud thing.

I am not against an investigation, quite the opposite. I am also quite sure that there has been fraud, considering the somewhat messy voting system you guys have. How big, that remains to be seen, and no doubt there will be fraudulent votes on both sides.

What I have been wondering about is Trump's own "3-5 million undocumented immigrants" (I think that's what he said?) voting and thus losing him the popular vote claim, and whether he is willing to give it a rest if the investigation result doesn't support his claim.

If his investigation finds 1 million votes that should not count, great, but that's still 2 million too few to support his repeated claim on why he lost the popular vote.

Messy system is right. There is no standard from state to state. Then the dems to say you do not need an ID to vote is certainly leaning things to their favor. Further, some people started to cry that it is very hard to get an ID. Well, if you have your birth cert and other ID(school/library card/tax returns) one can get an ID.

The voter fraud goes deeper that just illegals. There was ballot fixing found in PA. Double voting. Dead people voting.

You are correct, finding these millions of illegal votes is not going to happen. At the very least maybe a standardized system of voting will come of it.

Oberon

01-26-17, 03:51 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e28KhpWkwbM
I had so much fun playing that. So much fun. It was great.

:yeah:

I remember first playing that around a friends and within five minutes I was "I'm going to have to get this game." So fantastic, and the soundtrack. Beautiful.

Dowly

01-26-17, 04:42 PM

:yeah:

I remember first playing that around a friends and within five minutes I was "I'm going to have to get this game." So fantastic, and the soundtrack. Beautiful.Medal of Honor was great, but based on alternative facts, Call of Duty has always been better. So much better. It's so great.

Mr Quatro

01-26-17, 05:00 PM

This is one of the problems with voters registration, but not all states are the same, just about all of the states use voters registeration for jury selection too:http://www.nationalreview.com/article/421931/virginia-lovers-illegal-voting-hans-von-spakovsky-rachel-landsman

In April 2015, Governor McAuliffe vetoed House Bill 1315, which would have required jury commissioners to retain information from individuals not qualified to serve as jurors for reasons that would also disqualify them from voting, such as:

not being a citizen of the United States
no longer being a resident of the Commonwealth
being a resident of another county or city in the Commonwealth
having been convicted of a felony and
having not provided evidence that their right to vote has been restored,
or having been adjudicated incapacitated.

The bill would have required the sheriff or clerk of court to “make such information available, upon request, to the general registrar for that locality,” so that the general registrar could cancel the registration of those individuals deemed ineligible to vote. The bill was clearly intended to prevent illegal registration and voting by non-citizens, felons, and others ineligible to vote in Virginia. Governor McAuliffe vetoed the bill, claiming in his veto explanation that he was “committed to protecting the voting and civil rights of Virginians” and that “additional study” was needed.

Dowly

01-26-17, 05:14 PM

@AVGWarhawk

Messy system is right. There is no standard from state to state.I agree.

Then the dems to say you do not need an ID to vote is certainly leaning things to their favor.Perhaps the investigation shows so too. We shall wait for the results.

Further, some people started to cry that it is very hard to get an ID. Well, if you have your birth cert and other ID(school/library card/tax returns) one can get an ID. Yes, I have heard of this. You need to get your IDs in order.

The voter fraud goes deeper that just illegals. There was ballot fixing found in PA. Double voting. Dead people voting.I only care about the 3 - 5 million illegals that made Trump lose the popular votem, as he says.

You are correct, finding these millions of illegal votes is not going to happen. At the very least maybe a standardized system of voting will come of it. I do hope you get something out of this investigation. Standarized voting system would be the best outcome.

ikalugin

01-26-17, 05:26 PM

If the voting systems are separate for each state, what precludes you picking up voters from one state and them moving them to vote to another and as such make them vote twice?

MaDef

01-26-17, 05:41 PM

If the voting systems are separate for each state, what precludes you picking up voters from one state and them moving them to vote to another and as such make them vote twice? That does happen, especially between states like New York & Florida where people own a house in each state and split time between them. And most states only require you to show residency to register ie: utility bill with an address, along with an ID.

ikalugin

01-26-17, 05:46 PM

That does happen, especially between states like New York & Florida where people own a house in each state and split time between them. And most states only require you to show residency to register ie: utility bill with an address, along with an ID.
Is that viewed as an issue in the US?

Because if something like this does happen in Russia, in addition to the control by the state and the public (which may be imperfect in our society), we get all those US funded political activists who would flock to such election violation cases (including the ones they make up to justify their existance but that is another matter entirely).

yubba

01-26-17, 06:38 PM

Medal of Honor was great, but based on alternative facts, Call of Duty has always been better. So much better. It's so great.

since I stalled on PS2,, when Castaway sent me IL-2 1946 years back I was quite fund of the Metal of Honor Series,, Call of Duty was pretty good ,, but I seemed to like Band of Brothers over all..By the way seen Castaway of late ???

Dowly

01-26-17, 06:57 PM

since I stalled on PS2,, when Castaway sent me IL-2 1946 years back I was quite fund of the Metal of Honor Series,, Call of Duty was pretty good ,, but I seemed to like Band of Brothers over all..By the way seen Castaway of late ???Castaway or Castout? The latter was part of our community, but he left.

August

01-26-17, 07:47 PM

If the voting systems are separate for each state, what precludes you picking up voters from one state and them moving them to vote to another and as such make them vote twice?

Other than that being against the law?

Platapus

01-26-17, 08:05 PM

If the voting systems are separate for each state, what precludes you picking up voters from one state and them moving them to vote to another and as such make them vote twice?

We do need some sort of interstate database to keep track of people who have two or more legal residences and to ensure that for each election only one residence is used for voter registration.

We tend to resist any type of national ID database, but as more and more citizens are more and more mobile and the concept of one main residence may not apply, there needs to be some method of keeping track.

And as a precinct chief, I feel strongly about the need for photo ID in order to vote as along as the state makes it easy and affordable for all the citizens. Virginia, I feel, does it nicely.

Maybe we can adopt a system of inking voter's fingers when they vote. It could be a "badge of honor" signifying that the citizen voted.

A low tech solution to the problem. I would not mind going to work with an inked finger indicating that I voted.

yubba

01-26-17, 08:56 PM

Castaway or Castout? The latter was part of our community, but he left.

It's was Castout,, I'm sorry I have such an awful time with names,, along with spelling,..

vienna

01-26-17, 08:56 PM

Related but not the same, A national ID requirement is different than just a voter id requirement. As far as I'm aware there are no laws requiring a citizen to carry ID papers. The voter ID laws are more akin to a drivers license (you don't need one unless you are operating a motor vehicle). So you won't need to show ID except at the polls to show you are in fact eligible to vote.

The point I was trying to make was the opposition to voter IDs is not just only from one political viewpoint or another. When the issue was being thrashed out on those radio talk shows way back then, the voter ID was seen by some on the Far-Right as a sort of "gateway" to the establishment of a universal, national ID system and, to then, that was anathema. I, myself, have no problem with reasonably enacted voter ID laws...

This little gem popped up yesterday; it seems it isn't just those evil illegals who are filling out the ranks of dubious voters:

Tiffany Trump, Steve Bannon, Steven Mnuchin Registered to Vote in Multiple States

http://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2017-01-25/tiffany-trump-steve-bannon-steve-mnuchin-registered-to-vote-in-multiple-states

This story points out that it is not illegal to be registered in multiple states, but voting in more than one state in the same election is illegal. There are, in all the argumenst about possible extensive voter fraud in the last Presidential election, a few salient points:

- virtually all of the stats and cites on both sides of the argument deal with past elections and not the current one in question

- using past as present is akin to using the season before last season's stats to prove why your team should have won the championship; it's not what was done in the season before last season that is important, it is what was done in the most current season

- what is important is not the raw number of dead, or no longer residents, or any other aberrations found on the voting rolls, it is the actual number of those aberrations that resulted in the casting of an actual vote; you could have a million dead people on a state voter roll, but, unless an actual vote is cast in one of those names, there is no voter fraud

- voter fraud only exists if an actual illegal vote is cast and, as of now there is no way of knowing the actual extent of the problem without an actual, independent, investigation, so let's have one; I somehow think neither side is going to be fully pleased with the results

Is there voter fraud? Of course there is voter fraud, just like there is jaywalking or cheating on taxes! The real issue is not question of the existence of voter fraud, it is how much and how can it be mitigated, since I don't think it will ever be fully eradicated. If you really wanted to sway an election, the best, cheapest, and easiest way is tinkering with the votes after they are cast, not before. If you have control over the count, it really doesn't matter how many illegal votes are cast...

<O>

vienna

01-26-17, 09:01 PM

We do need some sort of interstate database to keep track of people who have two or more legal residences and to ensure that for each election only one residence is used for voter registration.

We tend to resist any type of national ID database, but as more and more citizens are more and more mobile and the concept of one main residence may not apply, there needs to be some method of keeping track.

And as a precinct chief, I feel strongly about the need for photo ID in order to vote as along as the state makes it easy and affordable for all the citizens. Virginia, I feel, does it nicely.

Maybe we can adopt a system of inking voter's fingers when they vote. It could be a "badge of honor" signifying that the citizen voted.

A low tech solution to the problem. I would not mind going to work with an inked finger indicating that I voted.

Low tech is often the best tech, but what will we do about all those voter wannabees who would just ink their own fingers?...

<O>

August

01-26-17, 10:49 PM

Interesting article. Who will win? So far it's been all Trump.

Why the Media Keeps Losing to Donald Trump

http://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-versus-media-548562

Donald Trump is obsessed with the media. And the media is obsessed with Trump. Let’s take it as a given that this obsession is unhealthy. The last time there was such a level of neurotic fixation and overwhelming distrust between a president and the press was during the Nixon administration. The current White House would be well aware that the press won that war—and that the stakes now can be mortal.Indeed, each side believes that, given its druthers, the other would kill it. So how does this bitter and potentially lethal game play out?

Oberon

01-26-17, 10:53 PM

Define 'winning', because right now it seems that both are losing. :hmmm:

Rockstar

01-26-17, 11:44 PM

What Trump, Nixon and the media are doing today don't compare to what Lincoln was doing about the fake news networks of the time.

http://civilwarhome.com/fakeproclamation.html

Maj. Gen. JOHN A. DIX,
Commanding, New York:

Whereas, there has been wickedly and traitorously printed and published this morning in the New York World and New York Journal of Commerce, newspapers printed and published in the city of New York, a false and spurious proclamation purporting to be signed by the President and to be countersigned by the Secretary of State, which publication is of a treasonable nature, designed to give aid and comfort to the enemies of the United States and to the rebels now at war against the Government, and their aiders and abettors, you are, therefore, hereby commanded forthwith to arrest and imprison in any fort or military prison in your command the editors, proprietors, and publishers of the aforesaid newspapers, and all such persons as, after public notice has been given of the falsehood of said publication, print and publish the same, with intent to give aid and comfort to the enemy, and you will hold the persons so arrested in close custody until they can be brought to trial before a military commission for their offense. You will also take possession, by military force, of the printing establishments of the New York World and Journal of Commerce and hold the same until further orders, and prevent any further publication therefrom.

ABRAHAM LINCOLN.

Catfish

01-27-17, 04:03 AM

^ Trump's next decree. :haha:
Fakes in fakes, in alternative facts..

ikalugin

01-27-17, 04:32 AM

Other than that being against the law?
Law only works when enforced.

We do need some sort of interstate database to keep track of people who have two or more legal residences and to ensure that for each election only one residence is used for voter registration.

We tend to resist any type of national ID database, but as more and more citizens are more and more mobile and the concept of one main residence may not apply, there needs to be some method of keeping track.

And as a precinct chief, I feel strongly about the need for photo ID in order to vote as along as the state makes it easy and affordable for all the citizens. Virginia, I feel, does it nicely.

Maybe we can adopt a system of inking voter's fingers when they vote. It could be a "badge of honor" signifying that the citizen voted.

A low tech solution to the problem. I would not mind going to work with an inked finger indicating that I voted.
Well, do you think that the following would work:
- each state has a separate, state run database. Ie the federal goverment doesnt access it.
- registration for the voting (I assume that it happens before the vote?) is done using proof of citizenship (birth certificate + social security number?). Ie you can sell it that you need to have right to vote in order to vote. Registration is linked to the state's photo ID or other means of ID (for example biometrics) supplied by the person.
- after registration and before the elections states run the check to verify that there are no double registrations.
- person uses those means of ID at the elections.
?
What would be the expected counter arguments to such a set up?

vienna

01-27-17, 04:37 AM

New history texts as ordered by Trump...

Young George Washington chopping down the cherry tree:

Father: George, did you chop down this, my favorite cherry tree?

Young George (with hatchet still in his hand): Father, I can not tell a lie, but I do have some alternative facts to give regarding the matter...

New decree from Trump:

"Henceforth Lincoln will no longer be called "Honest Abe"; he is now to be known as "Sad, Weak Loser Who Didn't Know How To Use Alternative Facts..."...

<O>

Catfish

01-27-17, 04:48 AM

Lego (https://pics.onsizzle.com/lego-ages-5-lego-own-your-wall-trump-n-n-12167972.png)

vienna

01-27-17, 06:27 AM

At least a Lego wall would probably be cheaper. Here is an article outlining how the "US12-15 Billion" wall would really cost the US taxpayer 4-5 times more than the Trump estimates; we in the US really pay for the wall ourselves in the form of a 'hidden tax' -- big time:

Trump just proposed a $60 billion tax hike:

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/trump-just-proposed-a-60-billion-tax-hike-214631857.html

As is often said, the devil is in the details and, unfortunately, the guy sitting in the oval office isn't really into details...

<O>

Oberon

01-27-17, 06:50 AM

Catfish

01-27-17, 07:02 AM

Meanwhile in Russia Sergei Mikhailov, the second-highest-ranking officer in the cyber-intelligence unit of the Federal Security Service (FSB), and Ruslan Stoyanov, a private cybersecurity analyst specializing in antivirus programs—were arrested on charges of treason. [...]

Stoyanov's AntiVirus software might have found their own russian sniffing software and botnets, so... :03:

Regarding Mikhailov maybe he becomes the scapegoat for influencing the US elections if such action is being found out; Putin of course has nothing to do with it. He's such a good friend of Trump, and threatened with the third world war would Hillary have been elected (if anyone remembers that).

The classical clichés do not work anymore, America's new Right is now pro Russian, while Obama and Hillary are not. May and Merkel are also anti-russian; May because fearing european trade could shift away from the UK to the east, and Merkel has not yet caught wind of the US government mind change.

What will they think of next...

yubba

01-27-17, 08:27 AM

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=200&pictureid=9328

So why did Obama in his last moments as vacationer in chief try to sneak 225 million of taxpayer money to the Palestinian authority ???? http://www.nationalreview.com/article/444186/barack-obama-palestinian-authority-bailout-us-transferred-money-may-fund-terrorism

Oberon

01-27-17, 08:33 AM

Regarding Mikhailov maybe he becomes the scapegoat for influencing the US elections if such action is being found out;

Either that or Mikhailov was where the US intel came from. :hmmm:

Mr Quatro

01-27-17, 08:43 AM

Define 'winning', because right now it seems that both are losing. :hmmm:

or how about if we define whining:

whine
(h)wīn/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: whining
give or make a long, high-pitched complaining cry or sound.
"the dog whined and scratched at the back door"

I ate at a little cafe in Carson/Long Beach California one time ... the kind that had the grill in the restaurant with the counter right behind it out in the open. The cook would just turn around with your plate and put it in front of you on the counter. He had a big sign next to his grill that said, "No Whining allowed"

At least a Lego wall would probably be cheaper. Here is an article outlining how the "US12-15 Billion" wall would really cost the US taxpayer 4-5 times more than the Trump estimates; we in the US really pay for the wall ourselves in the form of a 'hidden tax' -- big time:

Trump just proposed a $60 billion tax hike:

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/trump-just-proposed-a-60-billion-tax-hike-214631857.html

As is often said, the devil is in the details and, unfortunately, the guy sitting in the oval office isn't really into details...

<O>

America could be great again if we gave up the next 13.5 billion dollar nuclear aircraft carrier to pay for the wall, but then we wouldn't be able to protect our foreign shores now would we?