Here we go again-Ukraine once again

[Andreas86]

I do hope I'm wrong I just remembered the first Iraqi war where the allied not only threw bombs in Kuwait but also in Baghdad, Basra a.s.o.

Markus

That's an understatement.. The first phase of the month long air campaign they focused mainly on Iraqi IADS, command & control, military, logistical and air force targets throughout Iraq. Iraq never stood a chance to defend either itself or Kuwait after the initial air war decimation.

I hope the US / NATO keeps out of this, it is getting scary. We don't want World War 3 over Ukraine, neither does Russia I hope.


According to the BBC, Putin said this in his speech last night; "You didn't want us to be friends," was how he put it to the West, "but you didn't have to make an enemy of us."


There is some thruth in this. Western politicians and media has done much to sour relations with Russia in the last decade.

[Skybird]

I currently see no realistic scenario or chance for this escalating into a NATO-Russia world war. Lets be realistic: Russia has not the military conventional power to take on all of NATO even without the US, and its military budget also is anything but giant. The problem however is, the Russians have the will and ability to amass their limited forces in a small place and by that reaching a focussed and superior fightingpower in this place. NATO's, European forces alone have their forces scattered all over the place and thus are weak everywhere. Only a fraction of NATO forces stand against a huge part of amassed Russian forces this way. That leaves the initiave for opening escalations to Russia, and NAOT must always just react. This must be changed. The West must finally get ahead of Putin's thinkinging cycle. He must me forced needing to react to us - not we to him.


I think the age where NATO should stick to treaties limiting its presence in Eastern memberstates must be seen as done and over, and we should massively and fundametally collect all those scattered forces from European countries and focus them along the borderstates to Russia and Belarus, that way giving the Russians something to think about instead of to laugh about. We should also get tactical nukes back into Europe, and for a start having them in reach of Kaliningrad where Russia in fact already has tactical nukes in place again, and a dangerous far-reaching missile and SAM shield that penetrates deeply into NATO'S central areas.



It does not matter anymore how we got to this situation , and who was right and who was wrong, and what was done and what should have been done and what has not been done. Its the situation now that we have to deal with, and there is no other situation than this one right now, period. Thats what should now be the focus of our actions. How we got here is no longer relevant. That we are here and nowhere else is what counts.



Also it is without alternative that Germany finally gets disziplined. Its russophile and dependency-raising diplomatic extra tours no longer are just an exccentric hobby, but have become a threatening mortgage for the whole Euopean block affecting the whole block'S defence ability and determination. By this I mean the others must mount - if needed: breaking - pressure on Germany to give up its stupid policy supporting this dependency and preventing actions against Putin, and its de facto dependency on Russia's gas must be provisionally solved in the short term for this winter in any way that works. Germany has become a real problem for everybody. The SPD. The trade exports. The Russian gas imports. In the past months Germany has more acchieved for the net benefit of team Russia than team West, I'm sorry to say. This has to change, and if the Germans do not voluntarily do so, then the Western nations must unite against it. The West can no longer tolerate this Russian "ally" in its centre belly.



This also means the SPD has to finally, finally, finally chop of Schroeders head - Putin's best man in Europe. Under his reign already Nord Stream 1 was formalised and finalized. Since then he is counted as one of Putin's most loyal vasalls, and now has high ranks in the Gazprom hierarchy.

[Skybird]

Immerhin...

Germany just announced a freeze for Nord Stream 2 (and left a backdoor open...)

A freeze is somethign that can get unfrozen again. What is needed is to bury this project once and forever. I still feel shabby for having defended it myself for so long. What devil has ridden me there...

The excuses for freezing instead of burying it probably is that they want to encourage Putin to give back the two Ukrainian regions (not mentioning: the Crimea). If so this illustrates just an ongoing daydreaming. The Russians will not give back the chunks they have bitten off Ukraine.

[Skybird]

I also want to mention one scenario that so far apparently nobody has seriously mentioned or taken into account.

What if Putin has, in a medical meaning, lost his mind, has become stupid, lost control of his mind, suffers a n unrecongised undoasgnses personality disorder, has become insane, paranoid in a psychiatric meaning, has a tumor in his head, a dysbalance in neutransmitters?

The man is 70. Such health issues can happen at such ages. If I called Trump's mind and personality distorted to the standards of psychiatric relevance, why not Putin then?

His last long speech was so twisted and in parts, in my perception at least, confused, that it really marked some criteria in my diagnostic memories.


Can we really assume that Putin is a sane man any longer? A coldy calcuating, cold blooded sane man, but nevertheless: "sane"? Maybe is is just an old fart who feels his time on Earth is running out and he has not what it takes to stand up to that.

[Skybird]

The Tagesspiegel writes:




Whoever is surprised by Putin's invasion has not been paying proper attention



February 22, 2022, and the road to it will go down in the history books. In the early hours of the morning, Russian President Vladimir Putin sent troops into the territory of Ukraine, thus upsetting the European peace order.

The meeting of the Russian Security Council on Monday in front of running cameras, the separatist leaders' request for recognition of the territories, Putin's signing of the relevant decrees, and finally the president's nearly hour-long angry speech - this grotesque spectacle was carefully choreographed and planned for a long time.

A week ago, when German Chancellor Olaf Scholz spoke with Putin in the Kremlin about war and peace, the Russian head of state had apparently already made up his mind. On the same day, deputies of the State Duma called on the president to recognize the self-proclaimed "people's republics" in the Donbass - that was also part of this staging.

If you really want to understand Putin, the first thing you have to understand is that the Russian leader has only feigned willingness to talk in recent weeks. As is so often the case with Putin, it would have been enough to listen very carefully. Last summer, he wrote a long essay in which he tried to justify historically why Ukraine was not a separate state and why Russians and Ukrainians were in fact "one people. Putin once called the end of the Soviet Union the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century. But those who have warned for years that he wanted to reverse that move, at least in part, were not taken seriously, especially in Germany.

The German government is now facing the shards of a Russia policy that, even after the annexation of Crimea and Russia's intervention in eastern Ukraine, prayerfully relied on "dialogue" and "channels of communication."

It was the Germans and the French who brokered the Minsk agreements in 2014 and 2015, and who continued to frantically cling to these agreements even when it had long been clear that they could not bring peace. Only a year after the Crimea annexation, the German government gave the green light to the Nord Stream 2 project, ignoring the fact that this pipeline could become a tool of Putin's geopolitical interests.

The troop buildup on Ukraine's borders began when the pipeline was completed and Russia no longer needed to rely on pipelines through the neighboring country. This is by no means a coincidence. Now Putin could move against Ukraine without regard to economic losses.

Russia's war in eastern Ukraine did not just begin on Monday night, when Russian troops, cynically declared by Putin to be "peacekeepers," rolled across the border. Russian soldiers have been fighting in the Donbass since as early as 2014. One of the West's mistakes was not to have said so openly. Anyone who is really surprised by Putin's actions today has not been paying proper attention over the past eight years.

The man in the Kremlin, on the other hand, has had twenty years to analyze the weaknesses of his Western partners. With the deployment of troops on the borders with Ukraine and the statements intercepted by Western intelligence services, he aroused fears of a major invasion by the Russian army.

The West has been preparing for this scenario. But the question of what to do in the event of a smaller Russian military action against Ukraine has unfortunately remained open in recent weeks.

Was it part of the Kremlin's calculation to get away with a secession, invasion and later annexation of the "people's republics"? However, Putin's speech on Monday evening, which only marginally dealt with the Donbass and in reality with the whole of Ukraine, speaks against this. A further military advance by Russian troops in Ukraine has not been averted, especially since the territories claimed by Moscow's puppets in the Donbass are significantly larger than their current sphere of influence.

A small sanctions package like after the annexation of Crimea will not be enough this time. How the West now responds to the challenge from Putin's Russia will also go down in the history books.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

[Catfish]

^ there have been rumours of Parkinson and Alzheimer, however all elderly potentates often develop a nostalgia for those "good old times"; the world setting when they were young and so on.

I do not know how to say this properly, but i think i overestimated Putin.



re Nord Stream I and II, if #I is being cut off Germany has 40 percent less gas. So, sanctions anyone :haha:

[Skybird]

He may live in a perception system of the world that signficantly varies from that of the others, but within that framework he acts quite reasonably and predictable. Thats why I am not certain on what I said on his mental health status. My perception of values and world and politcal things also significantly differs from that of the political mainstream of the woke crowd - does that make me an insane?

Maybe I would be wise not to ask this question the mainstream and the woke crowd... :D


They report that just half an hour before Scholz anncunced the freeze for the pipeline certification Putin said that he wants to continue deliver gas to Europe. Well, thats an issue of interest in the coming hours and days, isnt it.:) Did Putin know of the German decision when he said that, did he anticipate it or did he not believe the Germans would touch NS2?



German econjomy and climnate mionstrre Habeck wanmred of rising costs for energy and gas, and said he wants to see an acceleration of buiolding renewables.

To leave the remaining three nuclear reactors active - he said not. Ideology still trumps over economic reason and realism, obviously.

I'm sure his home is warm and cozy and he will suffer not financial needs. Its the money of the others and their future pensions that he burns.

[Skybird]

FOCUS writes:


The shock was great on February 1. The level in German gas storage facilities had fallen to just 36.9 percent, a low for that time. A 2015 study had warned of precisely this scenario: In an analysis for the German Federal Ministry of Economics and Technology, the auditing firm Becker Büttner Held had determined at the time that a filling level of 40 percent was needed on February 1 of each year to survive an extreme cold period of more than seven days.

What only complicates the situation in German gas storage facilities is that the Federal Republic is highly dependent on gas imports, with just over 50 percent of all supplies coming from Russia. This means that geopolitics is once again becoming a concrete factor for German heaters. This is because Russia's President Vladimir Putin seems determined to unleash a war in Ukraine.

The Europeans will most likely respond with tough economic sanctions. It is no longer out of the question that Moscow will cut off its gas supplies in response - even if it then has to forego valuable revenues. Will German supplies be sufficient in this case?

Yes, the German government is increasingly convinced of that. According to current calculations, Germany should probably be able to get through the winter even if Russia were to cut off its natural gas supplies completely, according to sources in the Ministry of Economics who told FOCUS Online. First the "mirror" had reported.

According to the report, the ministry and the German government are optimistic for two reasons. First, thanks to mild weather, Germany also consumed less gas in February than feared. January was already unusually warm for this time of year. And secondly, the Federal Republic was in a position to purchase so-called liquid gas in sufficient quantities to make up for any shortfalls.

In fact, German storage levels fell even more slowly in February than in January. According to the European Association of Gas Storage Operators, German reserves were still 31.07 percent full on Sunday, with daily net withdrawals averaging only half as much as in January.

The slightly relaxed situation allows the German government to take a more decisive stance toward Russia: At noon on Tuesday, Chancellor Olaf Scholz (SPD) announced that certification of the German-Russian Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline would be halted for the time being. "And without this certification, after all, Nord Stream 2 cannot go into operation," Scholz said.

The controversial project has repeatedly brought the German government criticism from its Western partners, but Germany had always defended it as economically necessary. Now, however, the about-face: Scholz said he had ordered an investigation into how Germany's energy supplies could also be secured in this way. "The situation is now different."

However: the prerequisite for optimism about gas stocks is that temperatures are roughly in line with the long-term average, according to ministry circles. That means: In the case of a longer cold wave all calculations would be for the ton. But how likely is a cold March?

"Winter in Europe is not quite over yet," says weather expert Jan Schenk from The Weather Channel (TWC) to FOCUS Online, "But we can already say that there will be no more extreme cold spell. Because we know from history that a warm spring follows when the polar vortex is as strong as it is this year." And, Schenk adds, "In this case, climate change is helping us. It's getting significantly too warm."

Paradoxically, this very climate change also offers Germany the chance to free itself from dependence on Russian gas. This is because a rapid expansion of renewable energies, which climate change makes necessary anyway, also reduces the demand for fossil resources such as gas. According to the ministry, the expansion of wind and solar energy must now be resolutely pursued in order to break away from Russian gas. With a series of legislative initiatives, the house of Economics Minister Robert Habeck (Greens) wants to open up new areas for renewable energies this year.

In the medium term, however, Germany will remain dependent on Russia. Even if Germany can survive this winter without Russian gas, that says nothing about future winters. For example, what will we do in the winter of 2023, when gas stocks have yet to recover from 2022, with wholesale prices still running hot? "Normalizing storage levels by next winter will be difficult if Russia does not change its gas policy," says Steffen Bukold, a political scientist and energy policy consultant. The Ministry of Economics therefore wants to expand German capacities for liquefied natural gas, among other things.

Should Russia completely stop its gas deliveries, Europe would indeed get through the winter, concluded an analysis by the European economic think tank Bruegel as early as the beginning of February. But if Moscow were to stop supplying gas in the coming winters as well, "it would be harder for the EU to cope." Replacing Russian supplies elsewhere "would be very expensive at best and physically impossible at worst," the Bruegel analysis says.

And in a sense, Putin is already turning off the gas tap, at least ever so slightly. According to industry representatives, Russia's state-owned natural gas company Gazprom is currently meeting its supply obligations. But so-called gas flow data from the Association of European Transmission System Operators show that Gazprom is also not making any effort to send additional gas into the pipelines, even though it would currently find a good buyer price.

"Not a cubic meter more arrives with us than is stipulated in the contracts," EU Commission Vice President Valdis Dombrovskis told Redaktionsnetzwerk Deutschland on Tuesday. "And Russia is doing nothing to alleviate the current complicated energy situation in the EU." Asked whether Russia could use its natural gas as a political weapon in the wake of the current tensions, the deputy to Commission President Ursula von der Leyen replied, "That can happen."

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

[clayton]

To hell with Putin—the little tyrant.

[clayton]

Y’all need to watch what you download.

[mapuc]

Thank you Skybird for your in-deep analysis of this ongoing crisis.

You're right it will not come so far where we in a couple of month from now is fighting a WWIII.

NATO will do almost anything to prevent it and Putin know this.

Some days ago in a Danish article it said-Our defence has been cut so much that we today can't defend Denmark not even part of it. It will take decades to rebuild it back to as it was in the 80'ies.

The only offensive we have is used in foreign countries-and it's only a brigrade.
(Taken from my memory)

Markus

[clayton]

“NATO will do almost anything to prevent this. . .”
You think so? I don't.
I believe that little corporal has finally crossed the line, and he needs to watch out.

[mapuc]

“NATO will do almost anything to prevent this. . .”
You think so? I don't.
I believe that little corporal has finally crossed the line, and he needs to watch out.

It's an impression I get by following the news here in Denmark and Sweden. That NATO will use strong words and sanction in hope it will make Putin regret his moves.

If, as some fear, Putin decide to take on the Baltic states-we will know if NATO is worth its money or not. They will not start a war on Ukraine that's for sure.

Markus

[Skybird]

Putin takes the US serious, the EU not.

For the US, Russia is the third biggest oil importer. But so far Biden has not announced sanctions that would punish the US economy like European sanctions would puniosh not only Russia but European nations.

Putin will take note of this nuance. And the Europeans will not find the American behaviour so far any helpful.

I think it is like I said some week sgao, that Putin wan ted to keep the Ukraine destabvlised by taking the Donbass, and securing nthat trophy win by making much bigger claism and demands (like the US withdrawing from Europe), so to get away with the Donbass prey when then "falling back" from his exaggerated demands. Two steps forward, one step back, means one step gained.

Macronman ran his Mposcow mission as a PR coup to score in the presidential eleciton race back home. That trick now exploded and backfires against him. Mosocw showed what it thinks of France's relevance and weight: nothing.

Same with Scholz. The germans think they have special relations to Russia like the UK thinks it has to the US. The ygemrans thought their words have wieght in the Krmelin. Well. That illusion was revealed to be what it is: a lie to oneself. Neithen Bubble-Olaf nor Macronman have any weight Putin pays attention to. OBVIOUSLY. He lied to their faces when he met them. The decision he now showed must have already been taken when he met them.


While the EU mulls sanctions, it also said it wants to keep diplomatic channels open and "bring Putin to the negotiation table". I wonder if Brussles really has learned anything even if it would release sanctions. I think not really. You camnot negotiate anything with Putin. You just cannot. They just have been lied to their faces by him. And want to talk on. Why they think any agreement given by Putin is worth anything, I cannot comprehend. They just have been lied to by him repeatedly straight to their facesm and they still wonder? They seem to be mascohsists, and maybe like to be lied to. Putin lies. Putin uses war and conquest. For Putin that is legitimate political acting.

[mapuc]

^ I doubt that Putin takes Biden serious-The US military is another thing and I think Putin respect it.

But a military strength isn't stronger than its civilian part in this case Biden in the White house.

Could be wrong.

Markus

[Jeff-Groves]

Saddam Hussein had no clue about the Stealth Aircraft the USA had WAY BACK THEN!
Does anyone believe there's not anything flying now that is beyond that technology?
:hmmm:

[Rockstar]

INTERNATIONAL
Explained: The crisis in Ukraine’s Donbass region
Uma Purushothaman

FEBRUARY 22, 2022 09:22 IST
UPDATED: FEBRUARY 22, 2022 11:00 IST

https://www.thehindu.com/news/international/the-crisis-in-ukraines-donbass-region/article65071140.ece


….What has changed now is that the shelling has intensified since last October when Russia began amassing troops along the borders with Ukraine. If the situation in the Donbass escalates, the possibility of a war cannot be dismissed. One way to prevent the outbreak of a war would be to implement the Minsk agreements immediately, as Russia has suggested.

There are two Minsk agreements, Minsk 1 and Minsk 2, named after the Belarussian capital Minsk where the talks were held. Minsk 1 was written in September 2014 by the Trilateral Contact Group on Ukraine, i.e. Ukraine, Russia, and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) with mediation by France and Germany in the so-called Normandy Format. Under Minsk 1, Ukraine and the Russia-backed rebels agreed on a 12-point ceasefire deal, which included prisoner exchanges, delivery of humanitarian assistance, and the withdrawal of heavy weapons. However, due to violations by both sides, the agreement did not last long.

Following this, as the rebels moved further into Ukraine, in February 2015, representatives of Russia, Ukraine, the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) and the leaders of Donetsk and Luhansk signed a 13-point agreement , now known as the Minsk 2 accord. The new agreement had provisions for an immediate cease-fire, withdrawal of heavy weaponry, OSCE monitoring, dialogue on interim self-government for Donetsk and Luhansk, in accordance with Ukrainian law, and acknowledgement of special status by parliament, pardon and amnesty for fighters, exchange of hostages and prisoners, humanitarian aid, constitutional reform in Ukraine including decentralisation, with specific mention of Donetsk and Luhansk, elections in Donetsk and Luhansk, withdrawal of foreign armed formations, military equipment, mercenaries, full Ukrainian Government control throughout the conflict zone and calls to Ukraine to restore control of state borders, etc.

THE GIST

Since Moscow invaded and annexed the Crimean Peninsula in March 2014, pro-Russia rebels in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions began seizing territory in Eastern Ukraine and held a referendum to declare independence from Ukraine. Since then, these regions within Ukraine have been witnessing skirmishes between the rebels and Ukrainian forces leading to the loss of over 14,000 lives, creating around 1.5 million registered Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs) and destruction of the local economy. This shelling has intensified since last October when Russia began amassing troops along the borders with Ukraine.
There are two Minsk agreements, Minsk 1 and Minsk 2. Minsk 1 was written in September 2014 by the Trilateral Contact Group on Ukraine, i.e. Ukraine, Russia, and the OSCE with mediation by France and Germany. Under Minsk 1, Ukraine and the Russia-backed rebels agreed on a 12-point ceasefire deal, which due to violations by both sides, did not last long.
In February 2015, representatives of Russia, Ukraine, the OSCE and the leaders of Donetsk and Luhansk signed a 13-point agreement, now known as the Minsk 2 accord. However, the provisions under the agreement have not been implemented because of the ‘Minsk Conundrum’. Russia believes that the agreement asks Ukraine to grant the Russia-backed rebels in Donbas comprehensive autonomy and representation in the central Government. Only when this is done will Russia hand over control of the Russia-Ukraine border to Ukraine. Ukraine, on the other hand, feels that Minsk 2 allows it to first re-establish control over Donbas, then give it control of the Russia-Ukraine border, then have elections in the Donbas, and a limited devolution of power to the rebels. Ukraine believes the accord supports its sovereignty fully while Russia believes it only gives Ukraine limited sovereignty. Thus, the Minsk 2 agreement has been rightly criticised for being too hastily drafted, ambiguous and contradictory, making it difficult to implement.
However, these provisions have not been implemented because of what is popularly known as the ‘Minsk Conundrum’. This essentially means that Ukraine and Russia have contradictory interpretations about the agreement, particularly about when each part of the agreement is to be fulfilled. Russia believes that the agreement means that Ukraine has to grant the Russia-backed rebels in Donbas comprehensive autonomy and representation in the central Government, effectively giving Russia a veto over Ukraine’s foreign policy. Only when this is done is Russia ready to hand over control of the Russia-Ukraine border to Ukraine. Ukraine, on the other hand, feels that Minsk 2 allows it to first re-establish control over Donbas, then give it control of the Russia-Ukraine border, elections in the Donbas, and a limited devolution of power to the rebels —in that sequence. So, Minsk-2 is ambiguous.

While Ukraine believes the accord supports its sovereignty fully, Russia believes it only gives Ukraine limited sovereignty. Thus, the Minsk 2 agreement has been rightly criticised for being too hastily drafted, ambiguous and contradictory, making it difficult to implement. Moreover, the fact is that Ukraine has been reluctant to implement it for fear of Balkanisation of the country as other regions might also come up with such demands and because any Government which agrees to the kind of autonomy for LPR and DPR that Russia wants will lose domestic support. Russia, on the other hand, wants it to be implemented because it will guarantee protection of the Russian minority and Russian language and culture while increasing its leverage over Ukraine. Its fears about this are justified to some extent because in 2014, the new Ukrainian government had banned Russian as an official language despite almost 30% of its population being native Russian speakers.

Can implementing the Minsk Agreement avert war?

One of the principal demands Russia has made of the West is the immediate implementation of the Minsk 2 agreement.

While the agreement is far from ideal, it could be a baseline from which a diplomatic solution to the current crisis could be found and reviving it could be the ‘only path on which peace can be built’ as French President Emmanuel Macron has said.

For Ukraine, it could help it gain control over its borders and end the threat of a Russian invasion for the time being, while for Russia it could be a way to ensure that Ukraine never becomes a part of NATO and ensure that Russian language and culture are protected under a new federal Constitution in Ukraine.

However, there could be very prolonged negotiations on the type of autonomy the LNR and DPR could get. The latest news about a Biden-Putin summit followed by talks among all relevant parties, might just be the start to dialling back this crisis which could otherwise escalate into a cataclysmic war.

[Skybird]

^ I doubt that Putin takes Biden serious-The US military is another thing and I think Putin respect it.

But a military strength isn't stronger than its civilian part in this case Biden in the White house.

Could be wrong.

Markus


You are right probably, but I meant Biden and US military as a generalization for "USA". Putin from begining on only wanted to talk not with Europe but with the US about Europe. Its a long stratgey of theirs, sicne the co9ld war,. that they want to drive a wedge between the UDS and Europe, and want to weaken the EU by talking to individual European states, not the EU. Trump tried the same: weakening the economic block by wanting to get state to state negotiated treaties, bypassing the EU. Single states are in a weaker position against Moscow or Washington or Bejing, than the whole EU block.

[Skybird]

Saddam Hussein had no clue about the Stealth Aircraft the USA had WAY BACK THEN!
Does anyone believe there's not anything flying now that is beyond that technology?
:hmmm:
Russia today is not Iraq back then, and Putin is not Saddam. The Russians claim since years they can unmask stealth fighters, and they probably can.



And does anyone think the Russians have no secret even better hypersonic missiles than those they have displayed already? These weapons are worrying. They cannot be intercepted with contemporary technology, and as I see it from public media sources, the Russian ones are currently superior to what America has in this regard.



Russian ATGMs and AAMs are something that absolutely command highest respect and caution, less I red about their toperoedoes and sea missiles, but these also seem to be absolutely capable and fearsome. There is absolutely no excuse for looking down on their weapons. The only question is at what quantities they have them. Next, there is their radar technology. Its in the top league.



And then there is China, which too is not the China of twenty years ago anymore.

[mapuc]

Only a fool would underestimate a countries military will and knowhow.

Markus

[clayton]

Make no mistake where my loyalties lie. The world has had enough of Putin’s despotism.
Like I said earlier—Y’all need to watch what you download.

[Jeff-Groves]

Only a fool would underestimate a countries military will and know how.

And History shows that happened Over and Over!
Sad part is Not a single Government learns from THAT History.

[mapuc]

Read following in a Danish newspaper

It's only a part of the article, the rest is behind paywall.

Berlingske(the newspaper) thinks:
Now NATO must open the doors to Ukraine
We have not since the run-up to World War II seen a European superpower act as aggressively towards its neighbors as Russia does now. The West must not settle for weak sanctions this time. There is a need for a massive punishment of Vladimir Putin.

There are those who speak for a Ukrainian NATO membership.

Markus

[Rockstar]

I would think Germany, France, Russia, Ukraine and the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) would want to clarify the interpretation and purpose of the those two Minsk agreements THEY came up with. Because it appears everyone has their own ideas of what they mean. Which in my feeble opinion doesn’t do a whole helluva lot of good.

But let’s face it how many times in your life have politicians ever ‘solved’ domestic or foreign policy problems?

[Jimbuna]

Ukraine: What sanctions are being imposed on Russia?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60125659

Absolutely pathetic!

[Jimbuna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cdp6I88uA88

[mapuc]

Did anyone of you watch the press meeting with President Biden ?

I can't decide if it was a strong speech or a weak speech towards Putin Russia.

It sounded weak in my ears.

Markus

[Jimbuna]

Down to individual perception.

[Catfish]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cdp6I88uA88
When they are all down there, it would be a good idea to advance to Leningrad right now?:hmmm:

[Catfish]

What a joke this is :03:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9A-u8EoWcI

[Onkel Neal]

Did anyone of you watch the press meeting with President Biden ?

I can't decide if it was a strong speech or a weak speech towards Putin Russia.

It sounded weak in my ears.

Markus

Here's what Sniffy Joe said about Putin before he became President.

https://youtu.be/dVCnSsUj8PQ

[clayton]

Regardless, it's who we stand behind now!

[mapuc]

Regardless, it's who we stand behind now!

True.

Secondly it was not so much what Biden said, but more important what he didn't say.

Biden said something with defend each inch of NATO. What he didn't say between the lines was-You may take Ukraine but NATO is off limit.

Markus

[Exocet25fr]

Weak speech for me....!:D

Never Ukrain in NATO!

[clayton]

True.

Secondly it was not so much what Biden said, but more important what he didn't say.

Biden said something with defend each inch of NATO. What he didn't say between the lines was-You may take Ukraine but NATO is off limit.

Markus

I don't have the answer to that question. All I know is it's going to start hurting for Putin.

[mapuc]

I don't have the answer to that question. All I know is it's going to start hurting for Putin.

I do not claim to be 110 % correct in what I write.
Sanction will hurt Putin & Co, not so much though- History have shown us that it's the ordinary people on the street who suffer most. Putin & Co will still live a life in the outer lane.

Markus

[clayton]

I do not claim to be 110 % correct in what I write.
Sanction will hurt Putin & Co, not so much though- History have shown us that it's the ordinary people on the street who suffer most. Putin & Co will still live a life in the outer lane.

Markus
Then I suggest the Russian people start doing something about it. Only they will have the power to end their suffering.

[Skybird]

So far there is little in US sanctions that I can take serious.

That both the US and Europe desperately try to differentiate between a big invasion, a small invasion, an invasion that is no invasion but almost is an invasion though no really an invasion, is riduculous. It illustrates indifference, fear, weakness, clealessness, helplessness. And while the mice whistle and run around, in the Kremlin sits a fat cat and miaows.

Russian troops are standing in Crimea. Russian troops are standing in two Eastern provinces of Ukraine. What are these if not invasions...?

Putin has explicitly denied the Ukrainians' right to self-determination and a state of their own, if they want one. He denies Ukraine's right to exist. But hello...? What more does it take to arouse the determination of all Western parties involved...??? They are all still throwing around hopes and words. They are all still maneuvering, avoiding, and finding a thousand excuses that are no excuses at all.

And the gas dependence, especially of the Germans? Yes, it's a huge problem. Medvedev tweeted that the EU is entering the era when it has to buy Russian gas at twice the price.

At the same time, as a result of Corona, and yeras of debt crisis, and eroding fiance discipline in the West, financial margins are practically non-existent. Raising money is only possible at the price of a massive increase in inflation - or a massive renunciation of the completely insane green climate dogmatic policy line that Brussel has put forward. We can no longer afford all this stupid nonsense together. It aims at a right direciton, but uses completely inadequzate, meaningless tools that cause suicidal costs, and make no decisive diferrence, globally. How long will it take until this penny finally drops with our lobotomized leaders? Germany has just shut down three nuclear power plants at the beginning of the year for no reason, they can't be already gutted and scrapped, maybe they can be restarted without much effort? That means electzricity for heating. Nowhere in the world electricity prices cost the households that much money, like in Germany. And maybe it is possible to finally give up the idea of shutting down the last three remaining reactors this year, in this bad situation we are already in? We run thin on heating energy, we pay insane prices already now, and they have nothing better to do than to intentionally increase the demand and need, and shorten the supply, additionally to what Russia now will do?

Scholz this evening on German TV - there he was WEASELING AGAIN already and fabricating word tumors and avoiding the questions that were actually asked, and turning on the same hot air blower he always uses to emit meaningless noise and convolute feel-good air formations. Now that's a pain in the ass!

Don't be mistaken, NS2 is anything but dead for German policymakers, they built in a backdoor into the decison today as wide as the Baltic. It was put asleep to take a nap - not more.
And still the wanted increasinge in price, the deliberate increase in price of electricity and energy is at the top of the German agenda! Maybe the Germans should not curse Putin, but pay him a salary, after all he provides the service, which the German policy wishes more for than for anything else: he increases the price of energy: faster, more effective and more targeted than even the Greens can do. I say: pay the man a salary, and give him an honorary chairmanship in the European Climate Council.

Harrrr. Ich könnte kotzen. Ukraine does not meet the criteria for NATO membership - but we had eight years to arm them to the teeth.

Everything in our contemporary modern policymaking today seems to be stupid, stupid and more stupid only. Tells us something about the quality of the leaders. And why elections obviously work terribly bad these days. Every four years, they flush the most inept of the inept, the most shameless of the shameless, the most incompetent of the incompetent, the most egoist of the egoist and the most corrupt of the corrupt to the pinnacles of power.

That way we make sure that we get nothing better than what we deserve.


https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSYjeX6yHpJSc8dZ2MxBFfJpcalgiF3R SbcAatYfvejiD8BUybyN-ys6lsqFAVwnb0hLEg&usqp=CAU


Got the box of Battlestar Galactica, time to start the show tonight and put in the pilot disc, me thinks. I will applaud the Cylons.

[mapuc]

Here our elected politician has praised your minister Scholz throughout the day.

Markus

[Skybird]

Whistleing while walking alone in the dark forest.

Agfain: the Germans have not cancelled the pipeline, they have given it only some time in the penalty box. And every penalty time is meant to go over.

I just red a piece on German stock brokers recommending - to the wide public! - to buy Russian stocks. Especially those of Gazprom. While stockmarket-wise that may make sense, since Gazprom will always stay in business no matter what, it is irresponsible to support the economy of the enemy. I rate it as equivalent to high treason.


BTW, Mrkus: Scholz is Merkels wanted successor, her preferred choice. That should be a warning to everybody.



https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSYjeX6yHpJSc8dZ2MxBFfJpcalgiF3R SbcAatYfvejiD8BUybyN-ys6lsqFAVwnb0hLEg&usqp=CAU

[Skybird]

Finally. The Ukraine is calling up all reservists. General mobilization is running.



What the hell took them so long...?

[mapuc]

Finally. The Ukraine is calling up all reservists. General mobilization is running.



What the hell took them so long...?

They had hopes which disappeared after Biden's speech. They know they are on their own, only help their will get is weapon and morally support.

No no NATO boots on the ground or in the air.

Markus

[Sean C]

We don't want World War 3 over Ukraine, neither does Russia I hope.

I had hoped this song would never be relevant again ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHylQRVN2Qs

[Rockstar]

I just red a piece on German stock brokers recommending - to the wide public! - to buy Russian stocks.


Might want to look into MBT SBRCY and NILSY too. Just saying ;)

[Catfish]

Finally. The Ukraine is calling up all reservists. General mobilization is running.
What the hell took them so long...?
To not let themselves being provoked and give Russia a pretext.

But Russia creates the pretexts itself, "ukrainian genocide of 4 million dead russians", ukrainian death camps – in an area occupied by russian separatists since 8 years :03:

He does not even take much trouble for some believable maskirovka, it does not matter anymore.

First the eastern regions, then occupying the next region with a direct access to Sevastopol, then the rest of Ukraine. And no one will intervene.

[Catfish]

“I said, ‘This is genius,'” [...] “Putin declared a big portion of … Ukraine … as independent. Oh, that’s wonderful. … I said, ‘How smart is that?’ And he’s going to go in and be a peacekeeper. That’s strongest peace force. … We could use that on our southern border. That’s the strongest peace force I’ve ever seen. There were more army tanks than I’ve ever seen. They’re going to keep the peace all right. Here’s a guy who’s very savvy … I know him very well. Very, very well.”

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/trump-calls-putin-genius-ukraine-invasion-1311025/

https://www.rawstory.com/mike-pompeo-2656771461/

[Skybird]

And no one will intervene.
They are no alliance member and we can be thankful for that. But we could have armed them to the teeth with ATGMs, SAMs and shoulderpad AAMs. The British and Americans at the end did right this. Considering the long frontlines the numbers just do not match. In the end the Germans deny them the capability to fight for and defend themselves, and thats so shabby that I will never forgive Germany this latest of its many, many pseudo-moral lecturings to the world.

[Catfish]

^ I agree wholeheartedly, hoping the best and trying to appease was obviously wrong once more, in history. I am waiting for a comment from Schroeder, or Merkel ..

Quoting myself:
"First the eastern regions, then occupying the next region with a direct access to Sevastopol, then the rest of Ukraine."

So should the EU or at least Germany send military material to the Ukraine? A bit late, but..

And since Mr Putin loves to surprise us so much, what about surprising him? Let the still free bigger part of Ukraine join NATO next week.

[Jimbuna]

Ukraine has urged citizens living in Russia to leave the country immediately.

Up to three million Ukrainians are believed to live in Russia and many people have family in both countries.

A state of emergency is to be declared in Ukraine, lasting 30 days, the country's top security official says.

Ukraine is also conscripting reservists into the regular military as it braces for a possible invasion by its neighbour.

Western countries and their allies have imposed sanctions on Russian banks and MPs, as the crisis escalates.

But critics, among them the UK's Labour Party, say the measures so far are not strong enough.

It's not clear if any new Russian troops have yet been sent into the two regions, which are run by Moscow-backed separatists.

[Jimbuna]

“I said, ‘This is genius,'” [...] “Putin declared a big portion of … Ukraine … as independent. Oh, that’s wonderful. … I said, ‘How smart is that?’ And he’s going to go in and be a peacekeeper. That’s strongest peace force. … We could use that on our southern border. That’s the strongest peace force I’ve ever seen. There were more army tanks than I’ve ever seen. They’re going to keep the peace all right. Here’s a guy who’s very savvy … I know him very well. Very, very well.”

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/trump-calls-putin-genius-ukraine-invasion-1311025/

https://www.rawstory.com/mike-pompeo-2656771461/

Unbelievable! :o

[Jimbuna]

Boris Johnson "misspoke" when he claimed Chelsea Football Club's Russian owner Roman Abramovich faced sanctions, his spokesman has said.

During a statement in the House of Commons setting out measures against Russia, Mr Johnson said Mr Abramovich was "already facing sanctions".

But Labour's Chris Bryant later raised a point of order to ask about the accuracy of his remarks.

The prime minister's official spokesman said the PM would correct the record.

Mr Abramovich has had issues with his UK visa before - but has not been sanctioned.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60485759

Boris, the gift that keeps on giving :)

[Jimbuna]

A proposed meeting between Joe Biden and Vladimir Putin is "certainly is not in the plans" anymore, the White House's spokesperson has said.

Jen Psaki added that tensions over the planned invasion of Ukraine would have to ease before such a meeting took place.

President Vladimir Putin has said Russia is still open to diplomacy but will put its national security interests first.

US Secretary of State Antony Blinken has cancelled a meeting with Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov, which had been planned for Thursday in Geneva.

UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres said Russian troops sent into Luhansk and Donetsk "are not peacekeepers at all".

UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson said the UK was sanctioning five Russian banks and three oligarchs, freezing their UK assets and banning travel to Britain.

The EU issued sanctions aimed at 351 Russian politicians who voted to recognise the breakaway regions.

Australia, Canada, Japan, and Germany were also among the countries to announce sanctions on Russia.

Also on Tuesday, US President Joe Biden announced the first wave of sanctions against Russia, affecting Russian banks, oligarchs, and the country's sovereign debt.

He told reporters that Russian troops being ordered to eastern Ukraine after Mr Putin recognised the independence of Donetsk and Luhansk marked the "beginning of an invasion".

[sublynx]

The sanctions are even weaker than expected. I guess Biden talking about gas prices in his speech about Putin's invasion decision tells all we need to know.

[mapuc]

Do you agree on what Ukrainian say-That their struggle is also our struggle ?

The Ukrainians have constantly said that this is not only their war with Russia, but the whole of the Western world. They may turn out to be right. "

https://www-bt-dk.translate.goog/udland/bts-internationale-korrespondent-er-det-tilfaeldet-kan-vi-vaere-meget-taet-paa-en?_x_tr_sl=da&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=da&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Markus

[Jimbuna]

The sanctions are even weaker than expected. I guess Biden talking about gas prices in his speech about Putin's invasion decision tells all we need to know.

Yes, I was certainly feeling underwhelmed.

[mapuc]

JEF are scheduled to conduct a huge exercise in Denmark.

The announcement came after a meeting of the Joint Expeditionary Force (JEF), a British-led grouping made up of Denmark, Estonia, Finland and Iceland, Latvia, Lithuania, the Netherlands, Norway and Sweden.

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-baltic-states-conduct-preventive-military-activities-northern-europe-2022-02-22/

Markus

[Skybird]

Der Tagesspiegel writes:


These are harsh, ominous sentences: Ukraine will probably soon cease to exist as an independent state. Vladimir Putin must be taken at his word. To believe that the conflict is only about Ukraine is pure wishful thinking. China will exploit the current ties of U.S. forces to Europe to attack Taiwan, he said.

This is what Robert Kagan, one of the most influential American intellectuals, writes in the "Washington Post." Kagan's word carries weight, his mind is sharp, his strategic expertise unquestioned. He is one of the best-known neoconservatives in the United States, specializing in foreign and security policy.

Kagan advised Republican presidential candidates John McCain and Mitt Romney. He fell out with Donald Trump, accused him of "fascism" and resigned from the Republican Party. Kagan's analysis of the geopolitical crisis surrounding Ukraine deserves attention.

According to Kagan, Putin will occupy all of Ukraine. Russian troops would then be right on the borders with Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and Romania. NATO would be immediately challenged. The situation would be most precarious for the three Baltic states - Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.

Will NATO protect them militarily in an emergency? Kagan has doubts. "The ability of the U.S. and NATO to defend the eastern flank of the alliance will be very limited." The dispute could ignite over Putin's demand to maintain a direct land link to the Russian enclave around the former Königsberg.

Kagan rejects the objection that Russia cannot afford to occupy Ukraine because it must constantly fear attacks on its troops. An uprising against the occupying power would only be successful with support from neighboring countries. "Will Poland take that on, with Russian troops right on its border? The Baltic states? Or Hungary?" That would give Moscow an excuse to attack those countries as well.

In any case, Chinese President Xi Jinping is the laughing stock of the development. Putin's aggression tied the bulk of U.S. forces to Europe, enabling China to take over Taiwan. Russia and China were behaving similarly, Kagan writes, to Germany and Japan in World War II. "They are not truly allied, do not trust each other, and do not directly coordinate their strategies. Yet they benefit from each other."

The U.S., in turn, would be overwhelmed by two major conflicts. The "two-war doctrine," according to which America must be able to fight two wars against major powers simultaneously, was declared obsolete in 2012, he said. "The map of Europe has undergone many changes over the past centuries," Kagan summarizes.

"At present, it reflects the expansion of American power and the collapse of Russian military power. Next, it will reflect the return of Russian military power and the waning of American influence." In tandem with Chinese power expansion in East Asia and the Western Pacific region, she said, the beginning of an "age of global disorder" is emerging.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (http://www.DeepL.com/Translator) (free version)


I deeply hope he is wrong. I start fearing he is not.

[Jimbuna]

^ There could well be some realistic inevitability in the above.

[sublynx]

I agree. Kagan's analysis seems very much like one possible scenario. If Putin acts ruthlessly enough he might discover NATO paralysed by lack of political will.

[Skybird]

This is the Donald's revealing insights on the matter.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/trump-praises-putins-genius-gop-fissures-grow-ukraine-crisis-rcna17259

We probably must consider ourselves still lucky that it is Biden sitting in the White House currently. And I have already indicated that I think Biden'S reaction is weak and the US sanctions unimpressive, haven't I.

Putin'S timing is perfect. He struck at a time when all the West's weaknesses came together. Corona, debts, gas, French elections, British Johnson, German tricoalition, Westenr self-dwarfening, Western cost-explosion, Chinese culmination of willingness to confront the US. It all comes together and plays into Russia's play.

Meanwhile the German economy and climate minister, a Green man, reiterated twice on TV that it was not Scholz but his own ministry, and so himself, freezing NS2. The SPD internally is still at war with itself with parts of it calling NATO the bigger threat in all this, and the SED opposition condemns the step to freeze NS2 and wants Germany to close ties with Russia and opening the pipeline.

Let everybody be warned of the Germans. I would not trust them at all, and when they claim 1 + 1 is 2, I would check the calculation twice and three times.

[August]

Let everybody be warned of the Germans. I would not trust them at all, and when they claim 1 + 1 is 2, I would check the calculation twice and three times.


And German guy lectures us without even a hint of irony :roll:

[mapuc]

Let's cut right to the chase here: are we witnessing the prelude to World War 3?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60485766

Markus

[Skybird]

So how does the German chancellor view these interrelationships? Is his view appropriate? Doubts are reasonable. And they are now being voiced. And from the ranks of his own coalition. In his press conference after the visit to Putin, Scholz said that Putin's genocide accusation was "false." He said no more. In response to a question from an American senator at the Munich Security Conference, Scholz called Putin's "genocide" accusation: "Ridiculous."

Scholz also scoffed at Putin's historical "unity" article: "Putin has acted as a historian and written texts." Strange: Olaf Scholz deliberately does not want to deal with Putin's motives, his understanding of identity and his historical justifications. Why?

Scholz himself says: "If we were to take him at his word, that would not allow us to look optimistically into the future. I refuse to do that."

In other words, Scholz refuses to take Putin seriously on this point because it would then cloud his optimism. Seriously now? What if Putin is serious about everything: about invading, about "genocide," about Russia's unity across existing state borders?

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (http://www.DeepL.com/Translator) (free version)
https://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/angespitzt-kolumne-von-ulrich-reitz-drachenbaeren-allianz_id_56583708.html


Scholz always is absent, even when he stands there and makes some noise with his mouth. He always is totally disconnected form the reality around him, appears apathic, seems to be completely uninterested, you do not so much see him for himself, but you are aware of him only by that where he should be there is just kind of a hole that covers the background behind it. And because you cannot see that part of the backgroudn your relaise that there should be something in the foreground - just that you cannot see that thing in the foreground. A misty cloud that moves and changes form all the time, never takes clear contour and shape and form, mad eof highly polsiehd Teflon particles so that nothign cna stiock to it, nothign can be seen in it, nothing can be interpreted into it. Pure nothingness. In interviews he often ignores the quesiton and babbles down a prepared text, and when being asked again he repeats that text more or less and when being pressed a third time, he repeats that text. There is no link between what he says and what he is, and the reality we others live in. His way of speaking is lame, sedating, boring, monotonous.


He is very strange, there is something about him that triggers all my instinctive alarm sensors. I call him bubble-Olaf because he seems to live in his own alternate reality all the time. Even if he is here he is not really here. Very alienating figure. Even his own party does not really like him.

[Rockstar]

https://www.nytimespost.com/germany-shamed-as-us-doubting-loyalty-to-alliance-in-russia-ukraine-row/

…Katja Hoyer, an Anglo-German historian and journalist, said “rifts in the alliance were there for all to see”.

Writing for the Washington Post, she said: “Seen in that light, Biden’s in his news conference that a ‘minor incursion’ into Ukraine by the Russians would meet with a different response from NATO compared with a full-on invasion suggests that Washington and Berlin have been discussing how to handle minimal German support for economic sanctions.

“Rifts in the alliance were there for all to see.”

She said Germany had become “a weak link in NATO’s line of defence”.


Ukraine is a new Belt Road hub for that German Chinese alliance announced in the Chinese State run newspaper Global Times. However this hub would completely bypass Russia, and it appears Putin wants a piece of the pie too.

[Aktungbby]

I agree. Kagan's analysis seems very much like one possible scenario. If Putin acts ruthlessly enough he might discover NATO paralysed by lack of political will. He's already discovered that! As I've stated earlier in this thread We need to be at DEFCON two and remove our useless ambaßador from Moscow...and find another SEC of State that ain't Blinkin', :Kaleun_Wink:n' or :Kaleun_Sleep:n'. Moreover on 60 Minutes this weekend past, the President of Ukraine admitted that Ukraine's giving up its third largest nuclear arsenal was a mistake...I wonder what remaining plums: Lithuania, Estonia, and Latvia are contemplating at this juncture:ping::ping::ping: :hmmm: Our best hope is that Mr Putin Age 69, dies...shortly w/o a legacy! :doh:

[Jimbuna]

Putin has gone ‘full tonto’ over actions in Ukraine - Ben Wallace

UK Defence Secretary Ben Wallace has said the Russian president has made the mistake of having no allies in his actions, comparing him to Tsar Nicholas I during the Crimean War.

Mr Wallace, a former Scots Guards officer in the Army, claimed Vladimir Putin had gone "full tonto" over actions ordering troops into Ukraine.

Russia's Ministry of Defence has hit back at Mr Wallace's comments.

According to the RIA Novosti news agency, spokesman Maj Gen Igor Konashenkov said: "We recommend that British servicemen study well not only the geography of Russia, but also its history, in order not to enrich our common military history with their lives to please poorly educated British politicians."

The Crimean War was fought mainly in the Crimean peninsula between 1853 and 1856 between Russia and an alliance between the British, French and Ottomans.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-60496122

I reckon this politician should be reminded he is no longer a member of the British army.

[August]

I reckon this politician should be reminded he is no longer a member of the British army.

According to the RIA Novosti news agency, spokesman Maj Gen Igor Konashenkov said: "We recommend that British servicemen study well not only the geography of Russia, but also its history, in order not to enrich our common military history with their lives to please poorly educated British politicians."

Absolute Zero Ice Burn!

[mapuc]

I've tried to find an Article in English. It has been in the news here-They showed a video clip of a train with many tanks and armoured vehicle on its way eastward-To the front.

The only article I have is this translated Danish article

Trains with military hardware were seen running towards the front line between Ukraine and the separatist-controlled regions on Wednesday afternoon.

Ekstra Paper's correspondent observed two trains with armored vehicles and some tanks, respectively.

Military personnel were also seen in connection with the two trains carrying the equipment in the direction of the front line in the Luhansk region, which is partly controlled by the Russian-backed separatists

https://ekstrabladet-dk.translate.goog/nyheder/krigogkatastrofer/ukraine-flytter-kampvogne-mod-frontlinjen/9144238?_x_tr_sl=da&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=da&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Markus

[Skybird]

If - and that means: "if" - Russia attacks all Ukraine and conquers it, then a huge part of the Russian army is concentrated in that territory -. and suddenly shares borders with Poland, Slovakia, Hungary. And Putin already has made claim for owning all former Sovjet vasalls, too.

If he plays totally crazy horse and goes all in (which I doubt, but we cannot be certain of anything anymore, he has executed all comfortable certainties we based on in the past 30 years), and strikes in the Baltic region, too, I do not see that NATO, with or without the US, could defend or later retake the three small Baltic states without the use uf nukes. Which the US would not use for three small Baltic states, no doubt.

The big bulwark in the east must be Poland.

I wonder how the logistical background of the Russian army now is, after the many reforms and modernizations of theirs. I expect it to be fundamentally improved compared to the 1990s, but I know nothing about their logistcs systema and status nowadays.


And the US now launch sanctions against NS2 and related companies and directors that had been held back in the past months and year. Either the US does this now because Berlin had alreayd put the certification process on a temporary halt (thats how German media interpret it), or the Americans have realised that the announced German freeze indeed is no end but just a delay to NS2 and so they use the opportunity to hammer the penultimate nails into the coffin of NS2 (I could no longer criticise them for that like I still did one year ago).

[mapuc]

^ This is what I tried to get an answer The day the entire Ukraine is occupied. Will the Russian(Putin) stop there or will they continue into Poland and/or the Baltic states ?

And this

Ukraine has declared a state of emergency for 30 days, from midnight tonight.

The bill was approved by Ukraine's parliament just now. It introduces personal document checks and gives the government power to impose a curfew if needed.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60454795

Markus

[Onkel Neal]

We probably must consider ourselves still lucky that it is Biden sitting in the White House currently. .

That must be sarcasm....

...it's worth noting that Putin invades Ukraine when Biden, not Trump, is in office. :hmmm:

If - and that means: "if" - Russia attacks all Ukraine and conquers it, then a huge part of the Russian army is concentrated in that territory -. and suddenly shares borders with Poland, Slovakia, Hungary. And Putin already has made claim for owning all former Sovjet vasalls, too.

If he plays totally crazy horse and goes all in (which I doubt, but we cannot be certain of anything anymore, he has executed all comfortable certainties we based on in the past 30 years), and strikes in the Baltic region, too, I do not see that NATO, with or without the US, could defend or later retake the three small Baltic states without the use of nukes. Which the US would not use for three small Baltic states, no doubt.



Wouldn't be so sure. If Russia attacks any NATO Member, it's war. Where the nukes come into play? Well, I'm sure they are in the plan somewhere, otherwise they wouldn't exist.

[Catfish]

^ This is what I tried to get an answer The day the entire Ukraine is occupied. Will the Russian(Putin) stop there or will they continue into Poland and/or the Baltic states ? [...]Markus
Their forces are concentrated around Ukraine, while a contingent is of course in Belarus.. close to Poland.
If NATO could push for Leningrad full conventionally it would take Putin by surprise.

Same surprise if NATO decided to accept Ukraine for defense against Russia next week.
Would Putin risk a nuclear war over Ukraine? I guess not.

[mapuc]

That was a good question.

How would different US-President have acted.

How would Reagan(if he was the President today) have acted if Russia invaded Ukraine ?

How would Trump(If he was the President today)have acted of Russia invaded Ukraine ?

How would JFK..... ?

Markus

[Catfish]

^ no doubt about JFK or Reagan.
That must be sarcasm....
Skybird and sarcastic? Are you being sarcastic? :D
...it's worth noting that Putin invades Ukraine when Biden, not Trump, is in office. :hmmm:
It will be interesting what can be found out by the courts about Trump, i hear they are in full swing.
Trump would not even have initiated sanctions, maybe some congratulation on twitter.

(quoting myself from this morning) (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2794883&postcount=796)
Trump:
“I said, ‘This is genius,'” [...] “Putin declared a big portion of … Ukraine … as independent. Oh, that’s wonderful. … I said, ‘How smart is that?’ And he’s going to go in and be a peacekeeper. That’s strongest peace force. … We could use that on our southern border. That’s the strongest peace force I’ve ever seen. There were more army tanks than I’ve ever seen. They’re going to keep the peace all right. Here’s a guy who’s very savvy … I know him very well. Very, very well.”

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/trump-calls-putin-genius-ukraine-invasion-1311025/

https://www.rawstory.com/mike-pompeo-2656771461/


Or, how Tim Rowland wrote:
"Truth? Who cares about that? Truth is so 1992.
You want to win in this country, you gotta do two things: You gotta lie and you gotta be nuts. Maybe we could even invade Ukraine before Putin does. Perfect."

And to be true: Maybe this, or going for Leningrad. War it will be anyway.

[Skybird]

That must be sarcasm....

...it's worth noting that Putin invades Ukraine when Biden, not Trump, is in office. :hmmm:

Have you taken note of the Donald's recent brilliant comments on the issue short time ago? I linked it somewhere. Nothing but praise for Putin he gave.

I do not say its good that Biden commands the US in this. I only meant there was a chance that the US would be commanded by an even worse "commander".

Even if he already does not recall it anymore, Biden is, like Putin, a child of the cold war thinking and playing. He learned and experienced and knows how the cold war game is played and what the rules are. Donny does not.


Lets not be mistaken, that Putin now goes tough is not becasue ther eis Bidne in place, he has prapred this many years in advance. all hius thinling finds its expression and culmination in what he now does. He has been about this since 15 years or so. And obviously raging bull Trump had no braking effect on it, evenm if his fans claim so.



Putin's history lessons and world view may or may not sound weired in Western ears (as always there are at least some grains of truth in them...). But we better start taking him by these his words. He means them. He always has.

[Skybird]

Continuation of politics with other means
https://www.tagesspiegel.de/images/politik_ts/28094012/1-format1007.jpg

[Catfish]

Just read this, but it is predominant on almost every political forum:
"Within the republican party you have an authoritarian Trump wing which wants to ally with Russia."
Question is what Biden does, or can do in this situation.

There is only one answer to this kind of aggression. Stop Russia, or lose Europe. I guess the latter does not matter much for republicans. Until America is next.

[mapuc]

Kremlin spokesperson: Pro-Moscow separatist regions ask Kremlin for help repelling Ukraine forces

The heads of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) and Luhansk People’s Republic (LPR), two separatist regions in Ukraine, recently recognized by Russia as independent, have formally asked Russian President Vladimir Putin for help repelling the aggression of Ukrainian Armed Forces, Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov told Russian state news agency RIA-Novosti on Wednesday.

(Scroll down)
https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-news-02-23-22/index.html

Markus

[Skybird]

Just read this, but it is predominant on almost every political forum:
"Within the republican party you have an authoritarian Trump wing which wants to ally with Russia."

Well, they can ally with the German AfD and SED, which also try to snuggle up with Russia.

[Rockstar]

It will be interesting what can be found out by the courts about Trump, i hear they are in full swing. They’re always in full swing


Trump would not even have initiated sanctions, maybe some congratulation on twitter.



If he didn’t initiate sanctions he may have done you a great a favor. Because if even more crushing sanctions are implemented it could get a helluva lot worse. Not just for Russia either. IMO the global economy including yours is kinda fragile right now. Further sanctions might be akin to shooting yourself in the foot. Be careful what you wish for.

Should we suspect the German government of colluding with Putin now too? Because from what I’ve been reading they don’t seem to be too keen on implementing harsh meaningful sanctions either. Or maybe just maybe they might be a tad bit concerned what it could do to your own economy?

[August]

Trump would not even have initiated sanctions, maybe some congratulation on twitter.

Actually Trump sanctioned the Russians at least 16 times by my count so you're wrong. And that doesn't include the other actions like indictments and official statements. With those the number of Trump admin anti-Russian policy actions is almost 60.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2018/09/25/on-the-record-the-u-s-administrations-actions-on-russia/

But do continue with your misinformation attempts and call yourself lucky that you're not a CDC denier.

[clayton]

Explosions reported in Kyiv. Well, well. . .

[clayton]

If Putin engages NATO forces, there will be hell to pay.

[Armistead]

Looks like a go for Kiev, so appears they want it all.

[clayton]

Well, it's back to the U.S.S.R.

[Reece]

Well Russia is officially at war with Ukraine, the bombing has started! :k_confused:

[clayton]

That petty tyrant. And that disgrace Donald Trump supporting him—surreal.

[nikimcbee]

So, who's got the best news feed for this?

[clayton]

Try tweets.
Here's an example of Russian peace. . .

https://twitter.com/ELINTNews/status/1490489628897513476?s=20&t=KXbPgW3ATm5Y-aKrgDdmgQ

[em2nought]

There is only one answer to this kind of aggression. Stop Russia, or lose Europe. I guess the latter does not matter much for republicans. Until America is next.




You've already lost Europe to Islam, you just don't know it yet. If anything Putin is getting Mother Russia ready to take on the barbarians after Islam has butchered all of you. :03:


America is more likely to be lost to South America or Islam than the Russkies. :D

[clayton]

America isn't going anywhere.

[clayton]

Russia’s economy is the size of Argentina. They are nothing more than a gas station. This will be the beginning of the end for Putin, and more than likely, it will come from his people.

[em2nought]

America isn't going anywhere.


The idea of America is being killed off a little at a time day by day.

[clayton]

No, you're mistaken, and that because of tyrants like Putin. Because of people like him, there will always be people like us.

[Catfish]

Seems the attack came from Belarus, Russia claims ukrainian airforce has been bombed and defeated.
Putin still claims he has no intention to invade. Ah.

Live stream Maiden now, explosions and fireworks are over now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJVeEF7o8Eg

[clayton]

Five Russian jets and one helicopter have been shot down so far. Maybe Ukraine will give the tyrant a bloody nose.

[Catfish]

^ This may all be true, or not. No true news to be found now, it seems the russian ground offensive beginning, also from Belarus (like the air strikes).

I am beginning to hate the EU for doing nothing. Yes i know the EU is an economic club, but if they claim to have some values left..
Sanctions make sense, but even if all the EU agrees, will e.g. London give up its russian money laundering?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/how-the-west-can-stop-putin/ar-AAUcCvL

https://time.com/6143645/how-to-stop-putin-invastion-ukraine/

"So how to proceed? First, President Biden should make a list of Putin’s top 50 oligarch trustees and immediately sanction five of them. This would show Putin that the U.S. is not bluffing. Second, President Biden should give Putin a deadline of 10 days to retreat from the Ukrainian border or another five oligarchs will be sanctioned. In the event that Putin does invade Ukraine, the U.S. will make it be known that they will sanction the full list of these 50 oligarchs, and then draw up a new list of 50 more.

If you ask any Russian dissident or opposition politician what would stop Putin, they would all point toward this strategy. The Magnitsky Act is a like a modern-day cancer drug. Instead of nearly killing the patient to target the cancer, it targets the cancer directly."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnitsky_Act

[Moonlight]

OH FFS Catfish, sanctions are no bloody good against a powerful tyrant that uses bombs and bullets to get what he wants, that stupid strategy you've posted will work against the Saddam Hussein's of this world but it won't work against a bleeding Superpower.
This has been the downfall of the west for bleeding years, they have the war materials but they've got weak leaders in charge of them, the EU, the UK, NATO and America have caused this to happen. They should have had 200,000 troops on the Ukrainian border all ready to go the moment Putin's troops threatened a sovereign country, that would have stopped him in his tracks, if not, its WW3. Putin sends a Thank You from KIEV, the Baltic States next?,:hmmm: carry on nothing to see here. :haha:

The next thing the EU will do is send in Macron to see Putin and wave his famous White flag of Victory in his face........what! they've already done that, the Ukraine is toast. :O:

[Catfish]

You clearly did not read one word of the above :shucks:

[Skybird]

Those who refuse to perceive reality cannot master it.

[Skybird]

Hear, hear - the following comes from a person whom I would have assumed to be the most unsuspicious to say something as profound as this:


Former Defense Minister Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer has expressed sorrow over Russia's invasion of Ukraine. "I am so angry at us because we have historically failed. We did not prepare anything after Georgia, Crimea and Donbass that would have really deterred Putin," Kramp-Karrenbauer said on Twitter.

"We have forgotten the lesson of Schmidt and Kohl that negotiations always take precedence, but you have to be so strong militarily that non-negotiation cannot be an option for the other side," Kramp-Karrenbauer continued.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (http://www.DeepL.com/Translator) (free version)

Meanwhile the general inspecteur of the Bundeswehr said that now while NATO has activated the defence plan for Eastern Europe, the Bundeswehr stands there naked and blank for all to see.

And Russia? Well. Putin has more or less openly threatened the use of nuclear weapons against everybody who dares to come into his way.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Russia’s economy is the size of Argentina. They are nothing more than a gas station. This will be the beginning of the end for Putin, and more than likely, it will come from his people.I have heard this argument many times and once upon time I believed into it myself. Unfortunately, realities of Russian economy do not align with those of Western countries. Nose dive of rouble does not matter as long as trading happens within Russia and is done in roubles. While economic sanctions will cause troubles to regular Russian people, it will not hamper upkeep of Russian armed forces and internal security forces as daily expenses are in robules and there is no need to acquire foreign equipment which would be paid in euros or dollars. This is primary reason why Russia is able to maintain large and heavily armed military which Western country with similar GDP would not be able to afford.



Also, Russia is self-sufficient in energy, critical food supplies and many daily necessities, which means that prices of locally produced stuff will likely remain stable. Situation is roughly opposite in Europe, which receives large portion of it's imported energy (both petrochemical raw materials and electricity) from Russia. It is also important to remember, that Russia is major producer of raw materials required by European industrial sector, and Russia and Ukraine combined provide about 30% of world wheat exports.


In short, while Russia is on paper weaker than it's Western counterparts, it has better ability to sustain extended conflict. While some Western products will no longer be available, there is no reason to believe that this would lead into shortages of daily supplies or major increases in prices on internal markets which would cause protest against Russian regime. When combined with almost complete control on news media and powerful internal security forces, I don't believe that Vladimir Putin has any sleping troubles.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Based on Putin's speech, it seems apparent that he wants the Russian Empire back and won't be satisfied with borders of the Soviet Union. This begs the question: How far back in time he wants to go?

If correct answer is time before First World War (1914), then answer in western front is annexation of Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Finland. In south it would mean annexation, installation of puppet government or favourable dictator.


If correct answer is time before Crimean War (1853), then it is same as above plus State of Alaska (purchased by United States in 1867).

Unfortunately, Putin seems to be very patient with his final objectives so he will likely continue eating Europe piece by piece. With suitable detente periods between each slice, this process seems to be working perfectly.

[Andreas86]

Look up wwitv.com for ukraine TV channels, fleets of attack helos over ukraine, fighter planes going down in flames as we speak.. AA, missile strikes and explosions all over. Shot out tanks and dead soldiers on the ground. Airfield outside Kiev taken. Paratroops maybe? The war has begun for real. This is awful.

[Andreas86]

https://tinyimg.io/i/KrgoRzu.png
https://tinyimg.io/i/RVp5C86.png
https://tinyimg.io/i/hACIKCU.png
https://tinyimg.io/i/0ZbF9qf.png
https://tinyimg.io/i/GX7hmbv.png

[Skybird]

The sanctions imposed after 2014 have not weakened but dramatically improved Russia's economic autarky. Financially Russia is not weaker but stronger, MUCH stronger, today than it was before 2014.

Because Russia did a trick nobody seemed to have expected. It adapted.

Those who believe in sactions now still make the same old mistake that I curse about since years: they still see and judge Russia not by the specific characteristics of Russia, but their own Western standards and opinions. And these do not match with Russia. And nenver will.

The West is so weak by now that it has no other illusion left than sanctions and law codes to "deter" :haha: or "contain" :har: Russia.

Taiwan is next. There is no credible deterrance.

[mapuc]

I'm without words-Don't know what to write about the situation in Ukraine right now-Following the news closely.

Markus

[Andreas86]

Russia claims Ukraines air defence has been neutralized.. Ukrainian TV shown radars broken and out of action. Could the new hypersonic weapons have been used?

[Andreas86]

Because Russia did a trick nobody seemed to have expected. It adapted.

The West is so weak by now that it has no other illusion left than sanctions and law codes to "deter" :haha: or "contain" :har: Russia.

Taiwan is next. There is no credible deterrance.


Fox News had someone on who said exactly this. Russia has closely observed US and NATO doctrine through the last two decades, how the west responds to events in the world. At the same time it has passed the west in many tecnologies, cyber, electronic warfare, missile tech, etc. This is well calculated.

[Skybird]

Russian troops stand in the Northern area of Kiev, apparently a pince-attack from the Western and Eastern shore of the Dnjpr lake north of the city.



All Ukrainian air defences, the Russians claim, are down.
Advances to Mariupol.



Tanks from the Crimean seem to advance towards Odessa, both moves seal off the coast, and prepare landing of amphibious reinforcements.



Small detachments of forces west of Kiev, from Belarus, seem to drop southwards, sealing off the Ukraine's West against Western nations.


Heck this runs exactly like I predicted before the Olympics. Markus said he fears an attack on February 20th back then. I said I expect it in the time window after the olympics and before end of the month. All the moves I described in advance, and the Russians do it, precisely.


Its frustrating. I dispise our leaders, indefinitely.

[Onkel Neal]

Its frustrating. I dispise our leaders, indefinitely.

Yeah, but what can they do?

[Skybird]

Fox News had someone on who said exactly this. Russia has closely observed US and NATO doctrine through the last two decades, how the west responds to events in the world. At the same time it has passed the west in many tecnologies, cyber, electronic warfare, missile tech, etc. This is well calculated.


Yes. Putin may live in his own world, but he has still traits that make him superior to his Western counterparts:
He calculates cool and competently and in absolutely cold blood: no morals hinder him, no remorse.
He is disciplined.
He prepares.
He learns from both his own and our mistakes. Just that he rarely makes mistakes.
He has a long perspectives, over one and two decades. Pastience our leaders do not have.

This would have commanded utmost caution, alertness and respect (in then meaning of taking him as the threat that he always has been). And I always paid him that respect, becauue I think since always his competence makes him extremely dangerous. Instead, our leaders ignored him, played the threat down, laughed, and did not count the years further beyond than the next elections.

Putin may live in his own world. But within this framework he is absolutely consistent. There never was an excuse not to take him serious, not to take him by his words. All what is happenign now he already has hinted at many years ago! Georgia. Crimea, Syria, Donbass, Luhansk, it all falls into a chronological, consistent line, reaching back to 2006, 2007, when NATO offered perspectives for NATO memberships to Georgia and the Ukraine.


I admit I myself also did not always take him as serious with all this as we should have. But still I always still was far ahead of our leaders, this I claim for myself. My misjudgements were by far not as all-embracing than theirs. I paid Putin often respect, but only on a technical level, for the skill he showed in pushing his plans, never did I agree with his intentions and motives. Trump also expresses respect for him: but also that he admires him, and wants to be like him, wants to be a big bad boy himself, thats what makes him so disgusting. His competence as an enemy manouvering his pieces on the chess board commanded to respect him as that competent opponent. But many in the West ignored his competence, and snuggled up to him because they did not take him serious. This fatal flaw I never made. There is a huge difference between taking an enemy serious, and liking him.

I assume from now on they will pay respect to him, yes...?

[Andreas86]

Has the Ukrainian air force stood down? Claim is all airbases are out or action. Did they even have a chance to respond? Little footage has been released of any clashes directly.


Massive gridlock out of Kiev:
https://tinyimg.io/i/KvYn9EV.png

[mapuc]

The American intelligence says that Russia will have taken Ukraine by Friday morning(local time)
In some Danish article it says the war may go on for month.

So who's correct here ?

We can also expect millions of refugees from Ukraine.

Markus

[Skybird]

Look at the numbers of both air forces. I cannot imagine the Ukraine air force ever had a realistic chance. And radars have been taken out. I cannot imagine they still can fly anything. All air bases are claimed by the Russians to have been taken out. I think that is a realistic and believable claim, since the Ukraines air defence network was very weak from beginning on.

Unfortunately the Ukraine has gotten only small numbers of shpuderpad SAMs, and these also do not offer reach to shoot down high flying bombers. After 2014 the Ukriane has beefed up its defen ces and its army is severla times as striong as back the, but compared to the Russians it still sees all odds overwhelmingly against it.

Partisan warfare might be the way to go. That it wins, is uncertain, though, but it can mount the blood toll - though on both sides.

[Andreas86]

Take a look at this site:


https://censor.net/



https://censor-net.translate.goog/?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp


As of 13:00 the troops of the Russian Federation struck more than 30 attacks by cruise missiles "Caliber", MLRS, aviation and artillery on objects of our civil and military infrastructure, - the General Staff (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318708/stanom_na_1300_viyiska_rf_zavdaly_ponad_30_udariv_ krylatymy_raketamy_kalibr_rszv_aviatsiyeyu_ta_arty leriyeyu?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp)

[Andreas86]

https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318687/viyiska_rf_pishly_na_proryv_derjavnogo_kordonu_v_k yyivskiyi_oblasti_derjprykordonslujba?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp


The troops of the Russian Federation went on breakthrough of the state border in the Kiev area, - State frontier service


News Censor.NET (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/all?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp) War in Ukraine (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/all/page/1/archive/0/category/533/sortby/date?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp)


https://storage1a.censor.net/images/9/c/f/0/9cf0f2083a3938fd7908912c7fae9484/censor_news_middle8.jpg (https://translate.google.com/website?sl=uk&tl=en&hl=no&client=webapp&u=https://storage1a.censor.net/images/9/c/f/0/9cf0f2083a3938fd7908912c7fae9484/original.jpg) In the Kiev region, Russian troops broke through the state border.
This was reported by Censor.NET (https://censor-net.translate.goog/?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp) with reference to the SBGS press service (https://translate.google.com/website?sl=uk&tl=en&hl=no&client=webapp&u=https://www.facebook.com/DPSUkraine/posts/283474263891451) .
Enemy military equipment entered through the Vilcha checkpoint. Border guards together with the Ukrainian military accepted the fight.
In addition, hail shelling was carried out at the location of the Mlachivka Border Guard Service of the Zhytomyr Detachment.
It should be noted that, depending on the situation, border units are redeployed to reserve positions and act in cooperation with the Armed Forces of Ukraine and the National Guard. Джерело: https://censor.net/ua/n3318687

[Skybird]

The American intelligence says that Russia will have taken Ukraine by Friday morning(local time)
In some Danish article it says the war may go on for month.

So who's correct here ?

We can also expect millions of refugees from Ukraine.

Markus
Putin must avoid that the mood at home turns against the war. His priority is to blitz the war through to its intended objectives. How long it will last? His plan says: a couple of days, not longer. If possible.



But:


He made it clear he wants to rearrange the security and peace order in Europe. In other words, he wants to reastablish the borders of the Warsaw Pact era. Obviously he must then attack the Baltic states, Poland, Hungary, Slovenia, too.



Maybe he will pause a little when he got all Ukraine. But I think all the mentioned states now are at risk. And that is a very realistic threat, and realistic scenario. Markus said it early on. He is right.



I hope and pray that it does not become true.



Europe's political priorities must dramatically shift from political correctness agendas and CO2 tables and such, to defence, defence, defence and defence again. This is the priority of the moment, and forseeable future. Europes willingness todefend itself is in a terrible state, its capabilties to do so are in a mess, the weakness is dramatic and life-threatening, and an open invitation for Putin. What we have in combat forces must focus on the East, and must get relocated there. It will be little enough. Only then we stand a chance to deter him. For the americans it is even more complicated, they must, if they do not want to get kicked out of Europe, bring back significant reinforcements to Europe while at the same time maintaining a believable deterrance to China.Tricky. They claimed they have the ability to fight two huge wars simultaneously, but that is an echo from the past - I believe it when I see it these days. As I see it, they fall behind since years.Just look at the disrupted supply chains, globally, and count out platform numbers.

Our financial system will become disrupted sooner or later, causing havoc for our social systems and the communal cohesion of our states. Another weapon of hybrid war. And I am quite certain this has already been taken into account by Putin: if I can that - why shouldn't he?

He is 70. Maybe he dies. Or there is a revolt in his own inner circle. It is said his won staffers are against the war, and only obey due to fear. But then - how many assassination attempts were survived by Hitler? Dozens?

[Andreas86]

From the news feed on censor-net. Battles are raging.




Kuleba called on international partners to sever diplomatic relations with Russia (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318756/kuleba_zaklykav_mijnarodnyh_partneriv_rozirvaty_dy plomatychni_vidnosyny_z_rosiyeyu?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp) 15:29 10 0 (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318756/kuleba_zaklykav_mijnarodnyh_partneriv_rozirvaty_dy plomatychni_vidnosyny_z_rosiyeyu?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp#comments)

The situation in the North and South is tense: there are battles for Gostomel airfield, Genichesk, Skadovsk, Chaplinka - Zaluzhny (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318754/sytuatsiya_na_pivnichnomu_ta_pivdennomu_napryamkah _naprujena_yidut_boyi_za_gostomelskyyi_aerodrom_ge nichesk?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp) 15:28 3521 0 (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318754/sytuatsiya_na_pivnichnomu_ta_pivdennomu_napryamkah _naprujena_yidut_boyi_za_gostomelskyyi_aerodrom_ge nichesk?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp#comments)

Zelensky obliged the NBU to transfer to the state budget the profit for 2021 (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318753/zelenskyyi_zobovyazav_nbu_pererahuvaty_do_derjbyud jetu_prybutok_za_2021_rik?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp) 15:27 645 0 (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318753/zelenskyyi_zobovyazav_nbu_pererahuvaty_do_derjbyud jetu_prybutok_za_2021_rik?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp#comments)

We are ready to provide asylum to all refugees from Ukraine, - Liaen (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318752/my_gotovi_nadaty_prytulok_usim_bijentsyam_z_ukrayi ny_lyayen?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp) 15:23 7129 11 (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318752/my_gotovi_nadaty_prytulok_usim_bijentsyam_z_ukrayi ny_lyayen?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp#comments)

Heavy battles are being fought for Happiness and the Village of Luhansk: the Russian occupiers have been taken prisoner - the headquarters of the Environmental Protection Agency. PHOTO (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318750/vajki_boyi_tochatsya_za_schastya_i_stanytsyu_lugan sku_rosiyiskyh_okupantiv_vzyato_v_polon_shtab_oos? _x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp) 15:18 23593 49 (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318750/vajki_boyi_tochatsya_za_schastya_i_stanytsyu_lugan sku_rosiyiskyh_okupantiv_vzyato_v_polon_shtab_oos? _x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp#comments)

As of 1 p.m., battles are being fought for Henichesk, Skadovsk, and Chaplynka. The offensive of enemy tanks in the area of ​​Putivl was stopped, - the General Staff of the Armed Forces (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318749/stanom_na_1300_za_genichesk_skadovsk_chaplynku_ved utsya_boyi_zupyneno_nastup_tankiv_protyvnyka_v_ray ioni?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp) 15:18 21238 18 (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318749/stanom_na_1300_za_genichesk_skadovsk_chaplynku_ved utsya_boyi_zupyneno_nastup_tankiv_protyvnyka_v_ray ioni?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp#comments)

Poland is ready to accept refugees from Ukraine (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318748/polscha_gotova_pryyinyaty_bijentsiv_z_ukrayiny?_x_ tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp) 15:14 6131 6 (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318748/polscha_gotova_pryyinyaty_bijentsiv_z_ukrayiny?_x_ tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp#comments)

The troops of the Russian Federation control the route Kiev-Moscow from border with Russia to Baturyn of the Chernihiv region, - the head of the Sumy regional state administration Zhyvytsky (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318747/viyiska_rf_kontrolyuyut_trasu_kyyivmoskva_vid_kord onu_z_rosiyeyu_do_baturyna_chernigivskoyi_oblasti? _x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp) 15:12 24560 22 (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318747/viyiska_rf_kontrolyuyut_trasu_kyyivmoskva_vid_kord onu_z_rosiyeyu_do_baturyna_chernigivskoyi_oblasti? _x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp#comments)

The Kyiv City State Administration calls on Kyivites to donate blood (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318746/kmda_zaklykaye_kyyan_zdaty_krov?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp) 15:09 2310 1 (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318746/kmda_zaklykaye_kyyan_zdaty_krov?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp#comments)

The Verkhovna Rada switched to continuous operation (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318745/verhovna_rada_pereyishla_na_bezperervnyyi_rejym_ro boty?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp) 15:08 2222 6 (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318745/verhovna_rada_pereyishla_na_bezperervnyyi_rejym_ro boty?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp#comments)

We express special love and support to our soldiers who stand guard and protect our land and people - Onuphrius (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318744/my_vyrajayemo_osoblyvu_lyubov_ta_pidtrymku_nashym_ voyinam_yaki_stoyat_na_storoji_ta_zahyschayut_nash u?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp) 15:08 3897 17 (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318744/my_vyrajayemo_osoblyvu_lyubov_ta_pidtrymku_nashym_ voyinam_yaki_stoyat_na_storoji_ta_zahyschayut_nash u?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp#comments)

On the approaches to Starobilsk, the battle continues: two Russian tanks and 1 armored personnel carrier were destroyed, - OS headquarters (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318742/na_pidstupah_do_starobilska_tryvaye_biyi_znyscheno _dva_rosiyiski_tanky_ta_1_btr_shtab_os?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp) 15:04 25828 27 (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318742/na_pidstupah_do_starobilska_tryvaye_biyi_znyscheno _dva_rosiyiski_tanky_ta_1_btr_shtab_os?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp#comments)

There is a battle in the direction of Sumy. Troops of the Russian Federation carry out an offensive from n.p. Konotop, - State Border Guard Service (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318741/yide_biyi_na_napryamku_sum_viyiska_rf_zdiyisnyuyut _nastup_z_boku_np_konotop_derjprykordonslujba?_x_t r_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp)

[Catfish]

https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/ausland/id_91720558/ukraine-so-erleben-augenzeugen-den-russischen-einmarsch.html

There's a video on the site, and farther below a chart. They are attacking all over Ukraine.
Probably they will take Transnistria and Moldawa, too.


Edit: lot of jets over Hannover

[Andreas86]

Surreal..




Russian troops fired on one of the districts of Mariupol: houses were damaged. LIST (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318761/viyiska_rf_obstrilyaly_odyn_z_mikrorayioniv_mariup olya_poshkodjeno_budynky_perelik?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp) 15:44 328 0 (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318761/viyiska_rf_obstrilyaly_odyn_z_mikrorayioniv_mariup olya_poshkodjeno_budynky_perelik?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp#comments)

In the area of ​​n.p. Pyschevyk fierce battles go: the troops of the Russian Federation try to break through defense, having applied 16 tanks, three are already destroyed, - OOS headquarters (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318759/v_rayioni_np_pyschevyk_yidut_zapekli_boyi_viyiska_ rf_namagayutsya_prorvaty_oboronu_zastosuvavshy_16? _x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp) 15:34 19093 18 (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318759/v_rayioni_np_pyschevyk_yidut_zapekli_boyi_viyiska_ rf_namagayutsya_prorvaty_oboronu_zastosuvavshy_16? _x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp#comments)

4 ballistic missiles fired from the territory of Belarus in the south-western direction - Zaluzhny (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318758/z_terytoriyi_bilorusi_vypuscheno_4_balistychni_rak ety_v_pivdennozahidnomu_napryamku_zalujnyyi?_x_tr_ sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp) 15:31 29797 43 (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318758/z_terytoriyi_bilorusi_vypuscheno_4_balistychni_rak ety_v_pivdennozahidnomu_napryamku_zalujnyyi?_x_tr_ sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp#comments)




Russia is meeting resistance, graphic video:



https://censor.net/ua/video_news/3318700/pidbyta_bronetehnika_armiyi_rf_ta_tila_vbytyh_rosi yiskyh_soldat_pid_harkovom_video_18

[mapuc]

https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/ausland/id_91720558/ukraine-so-erleben-augenzeugen-den-russischen-einmarsch.html

There's a video on the site, and farther below a chart. They are attacking all over Ukraine.
Probably they will take Transnistria and Moldawa, too.


Edit: lot of jets over Hannover

They have a base in Moldova

Markus

[Catfish]

Moldova is a non-NATO member but has signed a trade agreement with Europe, which angered Russia.

"Moscow's ambassador to the EU, Vladimir Chizhov, said Monday that Russia did not have "expansionist views" and that it was not looking to make a move on Ukraine itself from Crimea or the eastern border."
Ah.


Meanwhile TASS writes that Mr Lukashenko (you know the guy from Belarus) said that "attacking Belarus would be considered as an attack against Russia". The Belarus where jets and tanks are attacking the Ukraine from ..

[Andreas86]

Checkpoints on the western border work in a regular mode, - the State Border Guard Service (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318777/punkty_propusku_na_zahidnomu_kordoni_pratsyuyut_v_ shtatnomu_rejymi_derjprykordonslujba?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp) 16:09 1075 0 (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318777/punkty_propusku_na_zahidnomu_kordoni_pratsyuyut_v_ shtatnomu_rejymi_derjprykordonslujba?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp#comments)

There are tanks without identification marks on the dam of Kakhovka HPP - Ministry of Energy (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318776/na_grebli_kahovskoyi_ges_stoyat_tanky_bez_rozpizna valnyh_znakiv_minenergo?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp) 16:09 8073 9 (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318776/na_grebli_kahovskoyi_ges_stoyat_tanky_bez_rozpizna valnyh_znakiv_minenergo?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp#comments)

Ukrtelecom and mobile operators will provide communication to Ukrainians even if there are no funds in their accounts (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318775/ukrtelekom_ta_operatory_mobilnogo_zvyazku_nadavaty mut_zvyazok_ukrayintsyam_navit_za_vidsutnosti_kosh tiv?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp) 16:08 631 0 (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318775/ukrtelekom_ta_operatory_mobilnogo_zvyazku_nadavaty mut_zvyazok_ukrayintsyam_navit_za_vidsutnosti_kosh tiv?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp#comments)

Russian troops struck a military unit in Lipetsk: 22 people were killed. PHOTO REPORT (updated) (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/photo_news/3318681/viyiska_rf_zavdaly_udaru_po_viyiskoviyi_chastyni_u _lypetskomu_zagynulo_22_lyudyny_fotoreportaj_onovl eno?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp) 16:06 57744 65 (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/photo_news/3318681/viyiska_rf_zavdaly_udaru_po_viyiskoviyi_chastyni_u _lypetskomu_zagynulo_22_lyudyny_fotoreportaj_onovl eno?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp#comments)

Russian troops seize two cities in Kherson region and lose 7 planes, 4 helicopters, more than 10 units of equipment and more (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318772/viyiska_rf_zahopyly_dva_mista_na_hersonschyni_ta_v tratyly_7_litakiv_4_vertoloty_bilshe_10_odynyts_te hniky?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp)




Seems like the russians loses a lot of equipment if these reports are true. Afraid to think of Ukraines losses as this happens.

[Armistead]

I think we're seeing now not to bolster Ukraine's air defense with high tech surface to air missiles, hand held stingers, etc...was a big mistake. It also shows just giving up Crimea so easily was another big mistake. The mass tough sanctions should've happened then.

[Skybird]

Another mistake was done for the past 30 years, that is to deliver it high tech and computer tech, chips, even refit and modernise parts of their military arsenal for them. Why we deliver RUSSIA warships, night vision goggles, thermal sights for tanks and steering systems for cruise missiles, from the US over France to Germany, I will never ever understand.

We should not even have delivered scientific pocket calculators.

But the precious profit greed, the precious political illusions, the precious na-na-nanna-nah, na-na-nannah-na...

[Onkel Neal]

Oh man, Pandora's box.

My fear is this will become a civil war and continue for weeks, months...

If Ukraine collapses and ends resistance, this could be contained.

If the Ukrainians have sizeable forces that continue to resist militarily and are pushed to the borders... at some point Ukrainian "insurgents" possibly fleeing across the borders into Poland or Romania... I could see the Russians launching "limited" military strikes into these regions...and at some point NATO would have to stand up. Then war with Russia would not be avoidable.

[Andreas86]

Russian column hit by Ukrainian UCAV.

https://t.me/oleksiihoncharenko/10698

[mapuc]

The first Ukrainian refugees has crossed the Polish border. EU expect million will flee Ukraine.

Markus

[Skybird]

Oh man, Pandora's box.

My fear is this will become a civil war and continue for weeks, months...

If Ukraine collapses and ends resistance, this could be contained.

If the Ukrainians have sizeable forces that continue to resist militarily and are pushed to the borders... at some point Ukrainian "insurgents" possibly fleeing across the borders into Poland or Romania... I could see the Russians launching "limited" military strikes into these regions...and at some point NATO would have to stand up. Then war with Russia would not be avoidable.
Ah, a man who dares to say that a long resistence by the Ukraine may not even be desirable. Be cautious that they do not crucify you for that. I said something like that regarding Syria a few years ago, that the war will become the bloodier the more Western forces intervene and help against Assad and by that help to extend the length of the bloodshed. My opinion was not welcomed, nor may be yours now.

You are right, though. And I am certain that you agree that the martial logic in it may be logical indeed, but nevertheless is heartbreaking. Question is: has the Ukraine ever had a chance, considering the deeply dug in corrupt elites and oligarchs that they never got rid of? After all most people affected are just civilians trying to make their living and somehow getting over the days and weeks.

If the Russiands attack refugees and resistence camps across the border and into NATO countries, then only because we let them. Its in our hands. Or better that of the leaders we currently have. And these figures leave a lot to be desired: yours, ours, all of them.

[Subnuts]

Just goes to show you that countries with nuclear weapons have carte blanche approval to be horrendous bullies to countries that don't.



I was all for unilateral nuclear disarmament in my youth, but I swear none of this would be happening if Ukraine had 5 or 10 of the things. :nope:

[mapuc]

You say Putin gone mad-This makes me fear he may consider using smaller nukes in Ukraine-If his forces fail to gain control over the country.


I tell you this fear came up, when I heard in the news that Ballistic missile had been fired from Belarus

Markus

[Skybird]

Libya handed over it snukes to the US, and deeply regretted it. The Ukriane ahnde dover its nukes to the Russians, and now deeply regrets it.


But maybe the rest of us should feel happy for them not having nukes. Who knows what Putin would have done.



The expectation that Iran will give up its ambitions to get nukes, can be ignored, it always was and still is completely unrealistic. Other countries also learn thes elessons, I am sure.

[Andreas86]

I tell you this fear came up, when I heard in the news that Ballistic missile had been fired from Belarus

Markus

Same here... And it seems Russia is losing a lot of equipment. Reports now of 15 T-72s knocked out by Javelin AA missiles.

This escalates at an alarming pace. There is so much rhetoric from all sides.

Also, Russian forces are trying to seize the Chernobyl nuclear plant.

[Skybird]

There was a news from January the Americans delivered them 300 of these Javelin beast in January, and 180 earlier durign last autumn. That sounds not like much, considering the the length of the front the Ukrainians want to defend, but if they manage to have them stockpiled in the right places, they can bite big chunks out of Ivan's armour.


Th Brits did the right thing, too:
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/third-day-of-british-weapon-flights-to-ukraine/


In one of the images you can nicely see Germany's infamous role with this military aid. The British transport had to nicely fly around Germany, because the Germans did not want the British do deliver weapons. The british transports were denied permission to cross German airspace.

[clayton]

Here's hoping they get a tank with a whole crew for each Javelin launched.

[Skybird]

According to Ukrainian police, this is the airspace over Kiev.


https://www.fr.de/bilder/2022/02/23/91366920/28313520-uf-diesem-vom-pressedienst-der-ukrainischen-polizeibehoerde-veroeffentlichten-handout-foto-fliegen-offenbar-russische-militaerhubschrauber-ueber-den-Ea7.jpg
Not fighters or bombers - helicopters...

[mapuc]

In every war there's always volunteers who come from abroad. Wonder how many thousands foreigners has join the Ukrainian army ?

Markus

[clayton]

If they take one step out of Ukraine, there will be dead Russians—tyrannical, naked aggression.

[Skybird]

Ever more shame on Germany:


Focus writes:
Instead of weapons, Ukraine asked the German government for radios or protective equipment in early February. A report now reveals that the German government apparently left the request for arms assistance unanswered.

Ukraine's February 3 request to the German government for arms assistance has not yet been officially reviewed by the relevant ministries. This was reported by "Business Insider" with reference to persons entrusted with the matter.

By letter to the Foreign Office (AA) and the Minister of Defense, the Ukrainian embassy had asked for help on February 3: In view of the growing threat of war, the embassy said it wanted various military equipment such as electronic tracking systems, mine-clearing equipment, protective suits, digital radios, radar stations and night-vision equipment. The German government led by Olaf Scholz (SPD) has so far categorically ruled out supplying weapons. But it says it can imagine supplying one or two of the other armaments.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)


Meanwhile Putin's best man in Europe, former chancellor Schröder, relativises Russia' role and refuses to call the attack an aggression, attack, invasion.


And the German economy minister Habeck once again has ruled out that Germany will deliver any weapons to the Ukraine.



---


I live as a stranger in this foreign land. Do not read anything into me having a German ID card. It means nothing, is only a bureaucratic formality. It means nothing beyond that.

[Rockstar]

Forgot where I saw it, but because Russian made armaments are on both sides of the engagement. In order to tell them apart and help prevent friendly fire. The Russians painted a Z painted on their tanks. I imagine other vehicles would have them too.

Remember in early ‘20 we sent troops into Poland and established military bases. We knew this was coming.

[Susexx]

Forgot where I saw it, but because Russian made armaments are on both sides of the engagement. In order to tell them apart and help prevent friendly fire. The Russians painted a Z painted on their tanks. I imagine other vehicles would have them too.

Yes, that's right, and white armbands on the uniform

[Andreas86]

The helicopter footage is hours old. Jets are operating in east Ukraine, and Russia has used cruise and ballistic missiles.

Sky news just showed this from the Belarus-Ukraine border:


https://tinyimg.io/i/m1OQket.png


Many Russian tanks in the Oleshki region:


https://www.facebook.com/100003071082217/videos/969764973725374/ (https://www.facebook.com/100003071082217/videos/969764973725374/)

[Skybird]

But we regularly hear from the governments of Poland, the Baltic States, the UK and many others that Russians are subhumans (Untermensch).
Eh, using that terminology were the Nazis 80 years ago. ;)

In fact Western politicians often reiterate that they have no quarrel with the ordinary Russian people, Biden once again did so just days ago, and several European politicians over the past couple of weeks.

Nor do even people like me feel "hate" for your people. I don't, actually I knew Russians, years ago, at former work. No problem. But I hold your people responsible to the election choices you make. And that is only consistent, because I do the same with my own people and attack them often over the election results they produce. I even condemn them for going to elections at all, instead of boycotting the political caste completely and cancelling their loyalty and obedience.

Its about your political tyrants. It always was. That are the Russian individuals we have deep problems with.

I also tell you this, in all clarity. The Russians in your country (I assume Russia is your country) have no claim for the Ukranians. They are not your property, your posession or your slaves. You do not own them. You have no right to force them to live with you if they do not want that. Every people has the natural right to decide itself by whom it wants to get governed and by whom not. While there are varying-sized minorities of ethnic Russians in various provinces of the ukraine, these form the absolute majority only in one of these: the Crimea. The last census before the war in the Donbass region showed that alrready in Luhansk and Donbass the Russian share of the total population already was below one third, and that is the very eats of the Ukraine. The more Westward you go, the samller the ethnic Russian groups in provinces become. So, what claim do you have to make there that you have not boosted by driving non-agreeing Ukrainians away and importing Russia-friendly people from abroad, like has been done in Donbass and Luhansk?

I have no problem with the Ukrainian people going all for Russia if that is what they freely decide, unpressed, unintimidated, unmanipulated, by their own voluntary will and desire. But apparently they dont want it that way, and after the horror of the SAtlain tyranny I cannot mistake them for that, they paid with millions of lives (and that were not the Nazis, that was Stalin). But your Führer in the Kremlin takes it upon him to now decide it in their place and on their behalf, using force and violence to subjugate them to his very own will. That is what makes him a pariah and war criminal. That he revives the Stlain cult tells all there is to kn ow. If the Germans would reinstall a figure like Hitler again who relativises the detah toll of the WW2 and the Holocaust and celebrate him and call him a figure of freedom and independence - what would you then think, eh?

That Putin threatens several other European states as well, mayke slciam for them, demands to command the Us out of Europe, and even threatens to use nuclear weapons if others would try to interfere with him, does not make it any better.

Russia is the attacker here, the aggressor, the invader. Putin is the evil bad guy. A very capable, competent, skillful evil-doer and bad guy, yes - but the bad guy he is. And there is no way to weasel around this simple fact.

[Skybird]

The helicopter footage is hours old. Jets are operating in east Ukraine, and Russia has used cruise and ballistic missiles.

Sky news just showed this from the Belarus-Ukraine border:





Many Russian tanks in the Oleshki region:


https://www.facebook.com/100003071082217/videos/969764973725374/ (https://www.facebook.com/100003071082217/videos/969764973725374/)
Those gunships look like troop carriers or heavy gunships that also carry small troop numbers, thats why I was stunned. I would expect these to come AFTER jets and bombers are done with the city. And they probably came after them, which means that things went very fast. Before the Olympics I said I expect the Russian blitz for Kiev from both sides of the Nothern part of the Dnjepr and the shock forces reaching Kiev in twice the time a civil car would need to cover the distance, so I estimated said 6-8 hours. It may not even have taken the Russians that long, which means their advance is VERY fast.

Thats why the helicopter image stunned me.

[mapuc]

^ I was thinking the same.

Using Helicopters so early I thought they was only used when you have almost 100% control over the airspace ?

Then I remembered it's Russian military doctrine, not USA.

Markus

[Rockstar]

Like him or not. I think Putin deserves this years Big Brass Balls Award

[kranz]

in b4 ikalugin saying 'these are NOT russian troops' ;)

[Andreas86]

^ I was thinking the same.

Using Helicopters so early I thought they was only used when you have almost 100% control over the airspace ?

Then I remembered it's Russian military doctrine, not USA.

Markus

It could be that much of Ukraines air defenses were taken out by cruise missiles early on. Just like in Desert Storm, where a big number of tomahawks were launched from warships in the Gulf and struck even before the F-117s hit their targets, as far as I know even before task force Normandy hit the radars.

So perhaps Russia didn't even need to use a large scale bomber attack to achieve their objectives today.

Latest news are that the airbase outside Kiev is taken and Russian transports and fighters have left Russia for Kiev.

[Susexx]

Eh, using that terminology were the Nazis 80 years ago. ;)

In fact Western politicians often reiterate that they have no quarrel with the ordinary Russian people, Biden once again did so just days ago, and several European politicians over the past couple of weeks.

Nor do even people like me feel "hate" for your people. I don't, actually I knew Russians, years ago, at former work. No problem. But I hold your people responsible to the election choices you make. And that is only consistent, because I do the same with my own people and attack them often over the election results they produce. I even condemn them for going to elections at all, instead of boycotting the political caste completely and cancelling their loyalty and obedience.

Its about your political tyrants. It always was. That are the Russian individuals we have deep problems with.

I also tell you this, in all clarity. The Russians in your country (I assume Russia is your country) have no claim for the Ukranians. They are not your property, your posession or your slaves. You do not own them. You have no right to force them to live with you if they do not want that. Every people has the natural right to decide itself by whom it wants to get governed and by whom not. While there are varying-sized minorities of ethnic Russians in various provinces of the ukraine, these form the absolute majority only in one of these: the Crimea. The last census before the war in the Donbass region showed that alrready in Luhansk and Donbass the Russian share of the total population already was below one third, and that is the very eats of the Ukraine. The more Westward you go, the samller the ethnic Russian groups in provinces become. So, what claim do you have to make there that you have not boosted by driving non-agreeing Ukrainians away and importing Russia-friendly people from abroad, like has been done in Donbass and Luhansk?


I would like to believe you, but the reality is that ordinary citizens are already suffering and will continue to suffer. And old Joe's words are just words. For him, everything that needs to be decided and done. And so it is everywhere. Nothing depends on the elections at all. It's like blaming the Germans for choosing Hitler. Aren 't you dissatisfied with the government yourself ? Why did you choose him ? The modern world is when people who have to take dementia pills make decisions. I have nothing personal to you.:salute:

[Skybird]

I would like to believe you, but the reality is that ordinary citizens are already suffering and will continue to suffer. And old Joe's words are just words. For him, everything that needs to be decided and done. And so it is everywhere. Nothing depends on the elections at all. It's like blaming the Germans for choosing Hitler. Aren 't you dissatisfied with the government yourself ? Why did you choose him ? The modern world is when people who have to take dementia pills make decisions. I have nothing personal to you.:salute:
Nor have I something against you personally, I always try to differentiate between politics and personal relations. But like I am responsible for my views and you have every right to call me out for them, I do the same with you, of course. But we must not start shooting with bullets at each other I think, yes? ;) :)



If you read me frequently, then you know what I think of the quality of Western leaders, the EU, and especially the German govenment: they make me sick and wanting to vomit. Usually I slam them with full broadsides and volleys and leave not a single good hair on them. ;)
The way sanctions are handled, is an alibi only, and yes, it is the oridnary citizen tklaign the brunt of it. Thats also part of their purpose. To make the people so dissatisfied with their life's needs that they decide to get rid of the leaders bringing these sanction over them with their ruthless acts.
The Europeans hold back fully smacking sanctions still, because we so heavily depend on Russian ores, gas, and to less degree: oil. America'S sancitons also are anyway near to what is possible at max, for iut also has trade interest with Russia.



A clean and clear cut in ties may look desirable, but truth is: nobody really wants it.

[Catfish]

I would like to believe you, but the reality is that ordinary citizens are already suffering and will continue to suffer.
Quite true, and the soldiers are at the lowest level, dor them it does not matter if they are not fed in Russia or in Ukraine.

"Nothing depends on the elections at all" :haha: speak for Russia.
Aren 't you dissatisfied with the government yourself ? Why did youA choose him ? The modern world is when people who have to take dementia pills make decisions. I have nothing personal to you.:salute:
I have something really personal for you, !°"§$%&/ sorry this was directed at Putin.

[mapuc]

In Russian tv the viewer is told that Russian army has intervene in Ukraine to remove the nazi-leading government.

Clever use old historical fear as a propaganda weapon

Markus

[Skybird]

Quite true, and the soldiers are at the lowest level, dor them it does not matter if they are not fed in Russia or in Ukraine.

"Nothing depends on the elections at all" :haha: speak for Russia.

I have something really personal for you, and would like to advise you to pi$$ off, troll.
That was not needed, Catfish, calm down. Lets not turn this thread ugly.

[Susexx]

Quite true, and the soldiers are at the lowest level, dor them it does not matter if they are not fed in Russia or in Ukraine.

"Nothing depends on the elections at all" :haha: speak for Russia.

I have something really personal for you, and would like to advise you to pi$$ off, troll.

Don't be rude. In a discussion, this is ugly. If it's nice for you to know that your choice means something, then why are we discussing it now? No other opinions, everyone who thinks differently from me is a troll. Great.

[Catfish]

That was not needed, Catfish, calm down. Lets not turn this thread ugly.
More ugly than an unnecessary war with people dying, with the pretext of "nazis" in Ukraine or mass killings in Donbass? LIAR. This is not clever of Putin, indeed it is very dumb because not even russians will believe it. He does not even try to hide anything anymore, no need for maskirovka, he has gone bat sh!t crazy.

Done. Please delete the quote.

[Andreas86]

If Europe has proved one thing in this situation, it is that they couldn't even agree on the size of a meal at McDonalds.

[Andreas86]

Ukraine as of 17:00.

Operational information of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine as of 17:00 on the Russian invasion.


-This was reported by Censor.NET (https://censor-net.translate.goog/?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp) with reference to the press service of the Ministry of Defense (https://translate.google.com/website?sl=uk&tl=en&hl=no&client=webapp&u=https://fb.watch/bnqLIFXJpv/) .


-"As of 17:00 on February 24, the enemy continues to act aggressively along the entire line of the common border.


-From the airfields of the Republic of Belarus performs demonstration activities along the northern part of the state border.


-In the Sivers'kyi region, the enemy was stopped on the Uzh River in the Velyki Osnyaky and Rivne regions, and a tank battle was being fought.


-Units of the first separate tank brigade of the Armed Forces of Ukraine stopped columns of enemy armored vehicles near Baturyn and on the outskirts of Chernihiv.


-The enemy attempted to land a tactical landing along the Kiev reservoir.


-20 helicopters KA-52 and Mi-8 of the Russian Federation landed at Gostomel airfield. The battle is on.


-The National Guard of Ukraine entered the battle near the city of Pripyat. The enemy landed a tactical landing in the Bessarabian and Tavriya operational areas.


-After an unsuccessful attempt to land a landing and an unsuccessful missile strike, the enemy missile cruiser "Moscow" began shelling the island of Snake.


-The mixed column of vehicles up to 300 units approached the settlement of Konotop. Mechanized units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine entered the battle. Enemy troops are stopped in the areas of Gremyach and Krolevets.


-In the Donetsk operational area defenders of Ukraine restored position on all line of collision. Fighting is taking place in the direction of Mariupol.


-The forces of the "South" group of troops have organized the defense of Melitopol and are conducting a defense operation on the border of the settlements of Abrikosivka, Rykove, Azov, "the statement reads. Джерело: https://censor.net/ua/n3318834

[Rockstar]

In Russian tv the viewer is told that Russian army has intervene in Ukraine to remove the nazi-leading government.

Clever use old historical fear as a propaganda weapon

Markus




There seems to be some concerns about what’s called the Azov Battalion. Now I don’t know if they follow Hitlers racial ideology and are really Nazis. But it is easier for governments to rally the public and gain their support for war if they believe Nazis are hiding in the shadows, than it is to explain the nature of current global politics.

Especially when their unit badges are quite reminiscent of Nazi SS insignia.

https://maidantranslations.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/sna-03.jpg

[Skybird]

The Frankfurter Rundschau reports about the EU sanctions of today this:


According to information from the Deutsche Presse-Agentur, the EU states agreed on the main features of the new sanctions package against Russia on Thursday. According to information from EU circles, it is aimed at the energy, finance and transport sectors. There will also be export controls on high-tech products and software, as well as restrictions on visa policy.

Exclusion of Russia from the Swift banking communications network and export bans on natural gas, for example, were not initially envisaged. However, it is considered quite possible in EU circles that there will be an exclusion from Swift at a later date and that Russia itself will stop supplying the EU with natural gas. According to the EU Commission, the Russian state-owned company Gazprom currently supplies around 40 percent of the gas consumed in the EU.

The sanctions against the financial sector are reportedly mainly about cutting off banks from EU financial markets. They are not to be able to borrow or lend money in the EU in the future. In addition, the refinancing of Russian state-owned companies in the EU is to be prevented. Their shares will no longer be traded in the EU. Something similar is planned for the energy sector.
According to Commission President Ursula von der Leyen, the new planned EU sanctions against Russia will stop Russian banks from accessing European financial markets.

The sanctions against the transport sector are about cutting off the Russian aviation industry from supplies of spare parts and other technology. Thus, a relatively small effort could have a huge impact and even shut down entire fleets, Brussels said Thursday. Export controls on high-tech products and software are also expected to make it difficult for other key Russian industries to develop. In the process, the country could be hit hard in the medium and long term, it was said in Brussels.

At the same time, it was stressed that the aim was not to hit Russian citizens. The target of the punitive measures would be those who support Putin's aggressive policies. A political decision on the sanctions package prepared by the EU Commission and the External Action Service is to be taken at a special EU summit this evening. The formal decision would then be taken afterwards.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)




This has some sting in it, but no decisive, breaking sting. I would prefer to see more, although that would hurt us ouselves, too. Its about credibility now. These sanctions are too much compromise. When we do not regain credibility, how can we then hope to ever taken serious in deterrance?

[Susexx]

In Russian tv the viewer is told that Russian army has intervene in Ukraine to remove the nazi-leading government.

Clever use old historical fear as a propaganda weapon

Markus

Unfortunately, it appeared for a reason. Nationalist currents have always been strong in a certain part of Ukraine. Sometimes they expressed their opinions very radically, and sometimes they acted. The state did not react to this in any way. Naturally, propaganda used it.

[mapuc]

Azovs are bucaneers, raiders. They can carry out attacks by the Russian government without the Russian govenerment being formally held responsible. Everything else in explanations of them is just part of maskirovska, I think.

I thought they were Ukrainian as Rockstar posted as an answer to my comment about what Russian viewers are being bombarded with.

Markus

[Onkel Neal]

I do not have any hard feelings to any Russian or Ukrainian SUBSIM members here. We can all discuss this if we don't make it personal.

Yeah, this is a sad day for Russians, Ukrainians, Europe and America and Canada. I can understand the Russian mentality and fear of having NATO right on their border. This could have been avoided if the US and NATO partners had listened to Russia's concerns. I don't think that extends to retracting membership away from Poland and the Baltic states but entertaining the idea of Ukraine stepping under the NATO umbrella was obviously too much. So, now the very thing that NATO membership for Ukraine sought to stave off is becoming reality.

The propaganda from Putin and his state run media that Ukraine is brimming with Nazis, that's just to fantastical too believe. Of course, in the US there are millions of crazies who think we are boiling over with racisms, so I can see how the unreal is considered fact.

When I was a young man, I had a philosophy: never get into a fight you cannot win. Just don't.

[Susexx]

The Frankfurter Rundschau reports about the EU sanctions of today this:


[I]According to information from the Deutsche Presse-Agentur, the EU states agreed on the main features of the new sanctions package against Russia on Thursday. According to information from EU circles, it is aimed at the energy, finance and transport sectors. There will also be export controls on high-tech products and software, as well as restrictions on visa policy.

Exclusion of Russia from the Swift banking communications network and export bans on natural gas, for example, were not initially envisaged. However, it is considered quite possible in EU circles that there will be an exclusion from Swift at a later date and that Russia itself will stop supplying the EU with natural gas. According to the EU Commission, the Russian state-owned company Gazprom currently supplies around 40 percent of the gas consumed in the EU.

The sanctions against the financial sector are reportedly mainly about cutting off banks from EU financial markets. They are not to be able to borrow or lend money in the EU in the future. In addition, the refinancing of Russian state-owned companies in the EU is to be prevented. Their shares will no longer be traded in the EU. Something similar is planned for the energy sector.
According to Commission President Ursula von der Leyen, the new planned EU sanctions against Russia will stop Russian banks from accessing European financial markets.

The sanctions against the transport sector are about cutting off the Russian aviation industry from supplies of spare parts and other technology. Thus, a relatively small effort could have a huge impact and even shut down entire fleets, Brussels said Thursday. Export controls on high-tech products and software are also expected to make it difficult for other key Russian industries to develop. In the process, the country could be hit hard in the medium and long term, it was said in Brussels.



Well, that's how we discussed it earlier. They will forbid me to play SH and come to you, but they won't give you gas. And everyone who arranged it will continue to sip Veuve Clicquot and talk about fate.

[Andreas86]

18 IL-76 planes took off from Pskov towards Kyiv, - Bellingcat (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318846/18_litakiv_il76_vyletily_z_pskova_v_bik_kyyeva_bel lingcat?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp)

20 Russian helicopters landed near Kyiv - a battle is underway (https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/news/3318848/20_vertolotiv_rosiyi_vysadyly_desant_pid_kyyevom_v edetsya_biyi?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp)



18 IL-76 cargo planes, that's a lot of troops. At this rate Ukraine is conquered by weekend.

[clayton]

We don't cave to a gas station run by a bully in a country with an economy the size of Argentina. If we don't stop him now, that strengthens the hand of every 2-bit thug who thinks he can reshape the map. Thugs!

[mapuc]

The propaganda from Putin and his state run media that Ukraine is brimming with Nazis, that's just to fantastical too believe. Of course, in the US there are millions of crazies who think we are boiling over with racisms, so I can see how the unreal is considered fact.

When I was a young man, I had a philosophy: never get into a fight you cannot win. Just don't.

As I have said before there are Danes who openly believe that the crisis well it's war now is a fake story made up by our Western politics and supported by our press this to keep us in fear as they did in two years with Corona.

I just shake my heard when I see a Dane post this on FB or Twitter.

I believe strongly that there is a war going on in Ukraine.

Markus

[Aktungbby]

Susexx!:Kaleun_Salute: & Kranz!:Kaleun_Salute: Nuthin' like a little post-Soviet Bloc contretempts to bring U guys to the surface since 2019:up: Putin has given up the staged attack alibi (ca.1939 Poland) for an American-style 'police-peacekeeping' scenario(Korea &'Nam)...:hmmm:JEEZE! just so he can wear his good-guy 'white hat' propagandwise...the real trick now is for all parties to keep this from blowing up into a 1914 Sarajevo-style trigger to WWIII; no IMHO about it. It noteworthy that, like Stalin moving troops from the Japanese Mongolian front in WWII, Putin, now in cahoots with premier Xi, has re-deployed troops from the Russo-Sino front to the Ukrainian front...proof he's stretching thin to pull this military gambit off, including threatening the West with "retaliations never seen before' if they aßist Ukraine.

[mapuc]

Copied from twitter

"Ukraine’s ambassador to the US just told us that a Russian platoon from the 74th Motorized Brigade has surrendered to Ukraine’s forces. She says that the Russian troops apparently had been unaware they were being sent to kill Ukrainians.
No confirmation yet from Russia’s military"

"A whole platoon of Russian occupants surrendered to Ukrainian forces near Chernihiv in northern Ukraine, Ukraine army commander in chief reports. 'No one thought we were going to kill. We thought we were going to gather information', Russian officer reportedly said"

Good news if true The Russian does not have an easy way to take Ukraine-Which also could be a bad thing-Depending on how eager Putin is to take Ukraine and install a pro Russian government.

Markus

[Andreas86]

As I have said before there are Danes who openly believe that the crisis well it's war now is a fake story made up by our Western politics and supported by our press this to keep us in fear as they did in two years with Corona.

I just shake my heard when I see a Dane post this on FB og Twitter.

I believe strongly that there is a war going on in Ukraine.

Markus


Beyond doubt. At the same time one should not underestimate the effect and usefulness of fear as a tool for any government. Any outside threat can be used to lead the populations attention away from internal problems and affairs.


Edit: And to implement laws and policies that otherwise would not have been possible. Just look at the US after 9/11.

[Armistead]

Guess Trump was right.. https://www.facebook.com/CrenshawforCongress/videos/241823864831692

[clayton]

Trump belongs in jail for treason, the orange clown.

[Andreas86]

Guess Trump was right.. https://www.facebook.com/CrenshawforCongress/videos/241823864831692


Stoltenberg looking extremely indignated of course, as Trump stood politically for much of what Stoltenbergs former political opponents in Norway did.

[Andreas86]

Trump belongs in jail for treason, the orange clown.


And Biden in a nursing home.

[Armistead]

I do not have any hard feelings to any Russian or Ukrainian SUBSIM members here. We can all discuss this if we don't make it personal.

Yeah, this is a sad day for Russians, Ukrainians, Europe and America and Canada. I can understand the Russian mentality and fear of having NATO right on their border. This could have been avoided if the US and NATO partners had listened to Russia's concerns. I don't think that extends to retracting membership away from Poland and the Baltic states but entertaining the idea of Ukraine stepping under the NATO umbrella was obviously too much. So, now the very thing that NATO membership for Ukraine sought to stave off is becoming reality.

The propaganda from Putin and his state run media that Ukraine is brimming with Nazis, that's just to fantastical too believe. Of course, in the US there are millions of crazies who think we are boiling over with racisms, so I can see how the unreal is considered fact.

When I was a young man, I had a philosophy: never get into a fight you cannot win. Just don't.


I think this was semantics, Russia had a long list of demands to be met in their proposal, including not allowing Ukraine in NATO. Had we given in to that one demand I don't think it would've stopped this long term plan of taking Ukraine, they would've just reverted back to all the other claims unmet.

[clayton]

And Biden in a nursing home.

Visiting hours are kinda tricky when you're visiting someone in jail. Nursing homes on the other hand, the staff’s nicer.

[mapuc]

If I remember it correctly Russia had also a demand that NATO should leave Eastern Europe- A Demand NATO couldn't agree on.


Edit
What tool do we have to fight Russia

Sanctions-How much does these affect the Russian economy ?
Blockade-Impossible for a country of this size
Economical blockade-A possibility but it also backfire.
Preemptive strike-Strike Russia were it hurt most-NO such thing-War shall be the last thing ever.
End edit

Markus

[Andreas86]

Visiting hours are kinda tricky when you're visiting someone in jail. Nursing homes on the other hand, the staff’s nicer.


Actually in my country, it is the other way around. Criminals from all over Europe makes a pilgrimage here for that very reason.

[Andreas86]

If I remember it correctly Russia had also a demand that NATO should leave Eastern Europe- A Demand NATO couldn't agree on.


Edit
What tool do we have to fight Russia

Sanctions-How much does these affect the Russian economy ?
Blockade-Impossible for a country of this size
Economical blockade-A possibility but it also backfire.
Preemptive strike-Strike Russia were it hurt most-NO such thing-War shall be the last thing ever.
End edit

Markus


I wonder how Russia will respond to coming sanctions, maybe a cyber strike on Europe? They say they will reply to sanctions with "the same coin"..

[clayton]

Actually in my country, it is the other way around. Criminals from all over Europe makes a pilgrimage here for that very reason.
You are Pro-Trump from another country? And what country is that?

[Armistead]

I wonder how Russia will respond to coming sanctions, maybe a cyber strike on Europe? They say they will reply to sanctions with "the same coin"..

It's gonna be a tik for a tac for a long time. Biden isn't gonna do what's needed sanction wise or to open markets to get gas production where it should be to bail out Europe's dependence on Russian oil. It's gonna be a long drawn out new Cold War.

[Aktungbby]

...the real trick now is for all parties to keep this from blowing up into a 1914 Sarajevo-style trigger to WWIII; no IMHO about it. It noteworthy that, like Stalin moving troops from the Japanese Mongolian front in WWII, Putin, now in cahoots with premier Xi, has re-deployed troops from the Russo-Sino front to the Ukrainian front...proof he's stretching thin to pull this military gambit off, including threatening the West with "retaliations never seen before' if they aßist Ukraine.

It's gonna be a tik for a tac for a long time. It's gonna be a long drawn out new Cold War. precisely! (as if the old cold war ever really ended):shucks: https://images.wsj.net/im-491633?width=860&size=1.5 <President Bill Clinton, Russian President Boris Yeltsin and Ukrainian counterpart Leonid M. Kravchuk join hands after signing the nuclear disarmament agreement in the Kremlin, Jan. 14, 1994. As the people of Ukraine steel themselves for a Russian attack, it’s worth recalling how the U.S. persuaded the country to give up its nuclear weapons. The event was the Budapest Memorandum of 1994, in which the U.S., Great Britain and Russia offered security assurances to the nation that had won independence when the Soviet Union dissolved.
That was the halcyon post-Cold War era when history had supposedly ended. Some 1,800 nuclear weapons were on Ukrainian territory, including short-range tactical weapons and air-launched cruise missiles. The U.S. wanted fewer countries to have fewer nukes, and U.S. credibility was at its peak.
The memo begins with the U.S., U.K. and Russia noting that Ukraine had committed “to eliminate all nuclear weapons from its territory within a specified period of time.” Then the three countries “confirm” a half-dozen commitments to Ukraine.
The most important was to “reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine.” They also pledged to “refrain from economic coercion” against Ukraine and to “seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine” in the event of an “act of aggression” against the country. Ukraine had returned all of the nuclear weapons to Russia by 1996.
Vladimir Putin made the Budapest Memorandum a dead letter with his first invasion of Ukraine in 2014. But the betrayal of Budapest isn’t forgotten in Kyiv, as President Volodymyr Zelensky noted bitterly in weekend remarks in Munich. Moreover on 60 Minutes this weekend past, the President of Ukraine admitted that Ukraine's giving up its third largest nuclear arsenal was a mistake...I wonder what remaining plums: Lithuania, Estonia, and Latvia are contemplating at this juncture
Budapest shows again the folly of trusting parchment promises in a world where autocrats think might makes right. More damaging is the message that nations give up their nuclear arsenals at their peril. That’s the lesson North Korea has learned, and Iran is following the same playbook as it connives to build the bomb even as it promises not to do so.
The inability of the U.S. to enforce its Budapest commitments will also echo in allied capitals that rely on America’s military assurances. Don’t be surprised if Japan or South Korea seek their own nuclear deterrent. If Americans want to know why they should care about Ukraine, nuclear proliferation is one reason. Betrayal has consequences, as the world seems destined to learn again the hard way.

BOTTOM Line: Putin ain't the only liar...I await the post-nuke dystopian age!

[Andreas86]

Damn close call for the person recording:


https://censor-net.translate.goog/ua/video_news/3318884/aviaudar_rf_bilya_kyyeva_video?_x_tr_sl=uk&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=no&_x_tr_pto=wapp

[Rosomaha]

Susexx :Kaleun_Salute:

I thought they were Ukrainian as Rockstar posted as an answer to my comment about what Russian viewers are being bombarded with.Markus

So it is. There the message is misleading. - this is a Ukrainian cell. Not Russian.


The propaganda from Putin and his state run media that Ukraine is brimming with Nazis, that's just to fantastical too believe...

Unfortunately, my friend, this is not delusional madness. Or at least not devoid of soil.

I'll just leave some photos here:

https://s1.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2022/02/731b82efc368c110efacc2184fa0369e.jpg

https://s1.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2022/02/d7cc03cafef3289a7dc49f8319a8da95.jpg

https://s1.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2022/02/a8d7d74bc0b750aa26891a69b64f664f.jpg

https://s1.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2022/02/7e1ce1fa04aa693a2127c00beac6f45d.jpg

https://s1.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2022/02/410a95d8802b18e4cc7fd156fcae70b1.jpg

such movements are not condemned there

Of course, everyone always has propaganda, but I see Western propaganda more powerful and crazy, at times.

Politics is a dirty business. Peace of mind to all of us and peaceful communication.

[clayton]

What's the source of those photos?

[Andreas86]

You are Pro-Trump from another country? And what country is that?


Never said I was pro-Trump, or pro any US politician. But we do have conservative, or what you might perhaps call "republican" values outside the US you know. Norway.

[clayton]

“Never said I was Pro-Trump. . .”
That's good.

[mapuc]

I've heard civilians has been arrested in Moscow as they try to demonstrate against the war.

Markus

[Andreas86]

“Never said I was Pro-Trump. . .”
That's good.


Why? Would it matter? :)

[clayton]

I've heard civilians has been arrested in Moscow as they try to demonstrate against the war.

Markus

And it's those civilians who will bring about Putin’s downfall.

[clayton]

Why? Would it matter? :)

Absolutely

[mapuc]

First day of the Invasion was a success we archieved what we planned - Says the Russian military

Markus

[Rockstar]

And it's those civilians who will bring about Putin’s downfall.

Putin just needs to follow Justin Trudeau‘s lead on how to quell dissenters . :D

[Skybird]

Hey, we have marching Nazis in Germany too, but that does not turn Germany into the Fourth Reich. As a matter of fact the vast majority of politicians, parties and media are left-winged over here, and the current government is formed by two left parties, and the Zeitgeist ticks very left over here.



A picture with a dozen marching Nazis does not change anything in that.



Like the Ukraine has the Azov group, Russia has the Wagner group that it uses as buccaneers and raiders, so to speak, carrying out military operations wanted by the Russian governemnt without the Russian government formally being held accountable. It is accused of many human rights violations and crimes against humanity.

[Skybird]

I thought they were Ukrainian as Rockstar posted as an answer to my comment about what Russian viewers are being bombarded with.

Markus
Yes, I mistook Azov with Wagner for a moment, and had deleted the post after 30 seconds or so. But you already had captured me, quick little fella! ;)


See my post above this one.

[Rockstar]

Susexx :Kaleun_Salute:



So it is. There the message is misleading. - this is a Ukrainian cell. Not Russian.



Unfortunately, my friend, this is not delusional madness. Or at least not devoid of soil.

I'll just leave some photos here:

https://s1.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2022/02/731b82efc368c110efacc2184fa0369e.jpg

https://s1.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2022/02/d7cc03cafef3289a7dc49f8319a8da95.jpg

https://s1.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2022/02/a8d7d74bc0b750aa26891a69b64f664f.jpg

https://s1.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2022/02/7e1ce1fa04aa693a2127c00beac6f45d.jpg

https://s1.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2022/02/410a95d8802b18e4cc7fd156fcae70b1.jpg

such movements are not condemned there

Of course, everyone always has propaganda, but I see Western propaganda more powerful and crazy, at times.

Politics is a dirty business. Peace of mind to all of us and peaceful communication.


Such movements here in the U.S. are condemned but they are permitted primarily because of our constitution. But those kook groups and the like are carefully monitored.

[Jimbuna]

It should be remembered that Ukrainian nationalists fought on for eight years after their country was "liberated" by the Red Army in 1944, using mostly German weapons. There are plenty of places in that country that are ideal for partisan activity---even if the major cities are under Putin's control. How Putin expects to hold down 45 million people with 200,000 troops is a mystery to me---unless he really believes that millions of Ukrainians will join his boys and take up arms to support a puppet regime.

[Jimbuna]

Russian forces launch a full-scale assault on Ukraine, with its military attacking the country from the north, east and south.

People in the capital, Kyiv, have been hearing explosions and air-raid sirens throughout the day.

Thousands have been trying to flee and seek safety in neighbouring countries.

There are also renewed reports of explosions in the port city of Mariupol, home to half a million people.

Ukraine's president, dressed in military fatigues, vows to fight on, but acknowledges troop losses.

Russians seize control of the Chernobyl complex - site of the world's worst nuclear disaster.

UK and US announce fresh new sanctions on Russia, including asset freezes on banks.

President Vladimir Putin defends the invasion, saying there was no other way to defend Russia.

But US President Joe Biden says Putin's aggression will cost Russia dearly.

[Skybird]

The Wirtschaftskurier writes:

What is Putin really thinking? What does his threat mean that his enemies will experience something unprecedented? Who still has influence on the ruler in the Kremlin? Udo Lielischkies was Moscow correspondent for twelve years. The best-selling author is an intimate connoisseur of the Russian president. He says: Putin must be careful not to be swallowed up by the system himself.

Mr. Lielischkies, you lived in Russia for twelve years as a correspondent and head of the ARD studio in Moscow, you are the author of the book "In the Shadow of the Kremlin," in which you dissect Putin's Russia in great detail - tell us: What is going on in the mind of the Russian ruler?

Udo Lielischkies: No one really knows anymore, which is because he has largely withdrawn and no longer consults even formerly close advisors. He lives in isolation, and is said to be very afraid of becoming infected with Corona. It is said from those around him that he now only consults with the good Lord. It is clear that those who still reach out to him are all hardliners. They are the hawks of the secret service, the security chief, the defense minister. Putin fancies himself on a historic mission. He wants to reestablish Russia as a world power entirely in the tradition of the Soviet Union.

If it is said that he consults only with God: Is Putin a believer?

He certainly presents himself as a believer. He allows himself to be filmed with the patriarchs of Moscow. The church plays a major role in Putin's narrative of the "Russian world," the "Russki Mir" - even if very few Russians go to mass. For his Russian counter-model to the West, Putin has stirred together a rather crude potpourri: a bit of church, some glorification of the old Soviet Union and derived hatred of the states and their leaders that have turned away from Russia, alliances of men up to and including gangs of rockers - all this is supposed to somehow give rise to an idea of a state.

It is noticeable on television pictures that the president looks bloated. Is he ill?

There is speculation about this, including from Russia experts who would not lightly utter such a thing. You mentioned his face. He looks short of breath. On the other hand, there have been such speculations before, when he disappeared for many days without explanation. But I am not a medical doctor, nor do I possess a crystal ball.

What made him so bitter?

He experienced the collapse of the Soviet Union as a KGB agent in Germany. That, observers say, really pulled the rug out from under him. This "Moscow no longer answers" trauma has left its mark on him. And if you follow the events in Ukraine from this perspective, it feeds this trauma. The Orange Revolution, the demonstrations on the Maidan in Kiev in 2014. Since then, Putin has been talking about "Ukrainian fascists" and has militarized Russia even further. When my daughter sat in kindergarten in Moscow at the time wearing a stylized military uniform, I knew what the hour had come to.

Does he enjoy the support of the population?

I have many acquaintances in Russia. None of them can imagine that it is a good idea to invade Ukraine. But one should not underestimate the effect of propaganda. There are areas of Russia where nothing gets through except the information from the state-controlled media. I myself have often come to such areas, where people tell you, "Putin has brought Russia back from its knees." Putin is picking up on a mood. Large parts of the population feel humiliated by the collapse of the Soviet empire and the Westerners, who are perceived here and there as somewhat arrogant, who in the 1990s sometimes acted in cowboy fashion.

Are there actually women who have influence over him?

Putin's private life is taboo. He is divorced, and there are rumors that he is dating a gymnast. But nothing leaks out. Putin is supposed to look like a man who lives only for his country.

In 2002, Putin gave a very open-hearted speech in the Bundestag in Berlin and received a standing ovation. Does this facet of Putin still exist?

I don't think it ever existed. Putin has never been about integration with the West, which would have limited Russia in any way. He wants the undemocratic state without opposition and without an independent parliament. He rules with networks and makes his aides billionaires. His fraternity is the secret service. Perhaps he has even become their victim. Imagine a tamer in a lion cage. Apparently the lions obey him, but woe betide him if he does not meticulously observe the feeding ritual. Then they tear him apart.

What does Putin's threat of "consequences for Russia's enemies "unprecedented in their history?" mean? Will he not stop in Ukraine?

This threat is understood by many in the West as one involving nuclear weapons. What else should be unprecedented. But I don't believe in an attack on NATO countries. He is not insane. He is a ruler who has so far tried to achieve maximum effect with minimum risk in his military actions. He suspected that the West would always quickly switch to dialogue after aggression. An attack on NATO states would be something completely different. But I can imagine that non-Nato states like Georgia are rightly worried.


Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (http://www.DeepL.com/Translator) (free version)


Interesting for me is the second-last question and answer. If the author is right and that world-open Putin indeed never existed, than I fell for him just like anyone else. How unflattering for me... :-?

[Jimbuna]

Why black text Sky?

[Rockstar]

If I remember it correctly Russia had also a demand that NATO should leave Eastern Europe- A Demand NATO couldn't agree on.


Edit
What tool do we have to fight Russia

Sanctions-How much does these affect the Russian economy ?
Blockade-Impossible for a country of this size
Economical blockade-A possibility but it also backfire.
Preemptive strike-Strike Russia were it hurt most-NO such thing-War shall be the last thing ever.
End edit

Markus

There are only so many sanctions that can implemented before they really start hurting our own economies. How we fight now is to continue offer economic opportunities and back the current governments that are already in NATO. Like I said before NATO does not roll in with tanks and occupy land like Russia is doing at this moment. When the Soviet Union collapsed those former Warsaw Pact countries wanted to join NATO.

Unfortunetly Russia will want to take Kyiv and install a puppet government which is the last nail in the coffin and buries Ukraine’s self determination. Giving Russia control of the Black Sea, Belt Road running between Germany and China and pipeline routes. Anyone wanting to do business will now have to include Russia in negotiations. (IF successful)

[Jimbuna]

Details of Boris Johnson’s ‘largest and most severe’ sanctions against Russia https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/details-of-boris-johnsons-largest-and-most-severe-sanctions-against-russia/ar-AAUghIN?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBoPWjQ

[mapuc]

Skybird wrote

"This threat is understood by many in the West as one involving nuclear weapons. What else should be unprecedented. But I don't believe in an attack on NATO countries. He is not insane. He is a ruler who has so far tried to achieve maximum effect with minimum risk in his military actions. He suspected that the West would always quickly switch to dialogue after aggression. An attack on NATO states would be something completely different. But I can imagine that non-Nato states like Georgia are rightly worried.
"
(From my memory)
As you stated some page back-NATO will not use nuke/go to war in their effort in defending the Baltic States.
Then something with Poland being the....

Could remember wrong.

Markus

[Jimbuna]

NATO will only act if a member is attacked and even then that's not a certainty.

[Skybird]

Why black text Sky?
Pardon? Its white on black and black on white for me, depending on my logon status...?!

[Jimbuna]

It is now but I can assure you it wasn't at time of posting :hmmm:

[Aktungbby]

It is now but I can assure you it wasn't at time of posting :hmmm: Assurances are the last thing one should discuss in this thread!:O:

[Jimbuna]

True :)

[clayton]

NATO will only act if a member is attacked and even then that's not a certainty.

You are mistaken. Putin will have his a-s handed to him if he attacks Nato.

[Jimbuna]

Maybe, maybe not...only time will tell.

[clayton]

Unbelievable

[Rockstar]

Big f’in Brass Ones I tell ya.

Broadcast live on television at 5.45am Moscow time, President Putin said:

"Whoever tries to impede us, let alone create threats for our country and its people, must know that the Russian response will be immediate and lead to the consequences you have never seen in history."

“All relevant decisions have been taken. I hope you hear me.”

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/57/3e/6f/573e6f54f3ebdbaadd339bcbaca48883.jpg

[clayton]

Big f’in Brass Ones I tell ya.

Broadcast live on television at 5.45am Moscow time, President Putin said:

"Whoever tries to impede us, let alone create threats for our country and its people, must know that the Russian response will be immediate and lead to the consequences you have never seen in history."

“All relevant decisions have been taken. I hope you hear me.”
Putin’s a gas station attendant, nothing more.

[u crank]

It should be remembered that Ukrainian nationalists fought on for eight years after their country was "liberated" by the Red Army in 1944, using mostly German weapons. There are plenty of places in that country that are ideal for partisan activity---even if the major cities are under Putin's control. How Putin expects to hold down 45 million people with 200,000 troops is a mystery to me---unless he really believes that millions of Ukrainians will join his boys and take up arms to support a puppet regime.

Yep. He may get more than he bargained for. It was the former Soviet Union's involvement in Afghanistan that helped end that regime.

[August]

It's gonna be a tik for a tac for a long time. Biden isn't gonna do what's needed sanction wise or to open markets to get gas production where it should be to bail out Europe's dependence on Russian oil. It's gonna be a long drawn out new Cold War.


I wonder how long that will be.

Putins creation does not have the structure of the old USSR or the Czarist monarchies that came before it. He's a one man cult of personality and afaik there's no heir apparent. So I think the day that he dies it all collapses with him.

[Skybird]

It is now but I can assure you it wasn't at time of posting :hmmm:
Russian cyber attack, I assume. :D


Wait, there was a copy-paste error in the first posting, part of the German original text was copied into the post together with the translation, maybe that was what was in black on black. I deleted that residual seconds later. Maybe that is what you have seen.

[Skybird]

Its reported that for the time being the Ukrainian army has brought the Russian assault on Kiev to a standstill. Attacks by Russian airmobile units have been thrown back. Says Ukrainian sources. Chernobyl has been conquerewd by the attackers, the airport in Kiev is being fought over. If it falls, the Russians can bring in immense reinforcements rapdily, and then the city probably is no longer to be held.



The airport lies around 13 km east of the city's eastern outskirts.

[clayton]

Outstanding! Drive the thugs out!

[mapuc]

NATO has decided to increase its presence on the eastern flank.
Denmark. contribute with a frigate, a C30 Hercules transport aircraft and 20 F-16s

Sweden as a part of the JEF alliance I don't know what they contribute with.

In the news here it is said that the Ukrainian has retaken the airport near Kyiv.

Markus

[Skybird]

German media report the reason for the fast decline of the Ukrainian force'S situation has been found. The promised 5000 German helmets that caused so much attention - have never arrived. With those helmets, the situation would look very differently on the ground, no doubt.

Meanwhile it gets revealed that the Bundeswehr for years to come is completely unable to equip all the forces needed to fulfill even its most profound alliance obligations. Like submarines have different crews, up to four, that rotate on turns on the boat, companies and batallions must lend tanks, IFVs and even personnel hand weapons. that means the equipment is available for only one active batallion at a time - with up to 3 batallions being unarmed in waitiing.

This means the mechanised infantry'S nominal numerical combat strenght can be divided by lets say 3 or even 4. Only a third or quarter of the batallions on paper, actually can be equipped.

For the most, the Bundeswehr is a phantom army only. But it now has several times as many generals than the Wehrmacht had at the height of WW2 with over 6 million men under arms. Since years Germany reports phantom troop contingents as available for service to NATO HQ. :doh: This was reported already several years ago.

Moral of it all: dont wait for the Germans. They will not come because there is nothing they can come with. For every company and batallion that is staged in a mission somewhere, three or four units stay back at home, waiting for their turn so that they get the weapons of the unit in service. Its hilarious.

An analyst of the Bundeswehr described on TV how it is in Fin lapnd instead, where they have a strong militia style system in place. It means that they can boost their troops levels that do regular service all the time by a factor of around 20 :o . The improtan tpart is, these additonal reserves can be fully equipped with tanksl, IFVs and all, because this additional equipment gets constantly stored and updated and kept in a combat ready state, comparable to the former POMCUS sites the US maintained in the cold war. Finland puts Germany to shame. - Said that Bundeswehr analyst. I admit he sounded a little envious. :D

[clayton]

“For the most, the Bundeswehr is a phantom army only.”
Then they had better get tough because a thug’s loose in Europe.

[blackswan40]

10,000 years from now after the radiation levels drop and maybe the fluffy squirels will be the dominant species :D

[Jeff-Groves]

10,000 years from now after the radiation levels drop and maybe the fluffy squirels will be the dominant species :D

They'd be better then the now Dominant Nuts!
:D

[Aktungbby]

One idea was that Putin waits until february 20ieth to not spoil or distract from, his friend's Xi Jin Ping's winter party (which officiall ends then).It's 1939 all over again with Adolf and Beneto and Hirohito...nuthin we ain't seen before:hmmm:

He's already discovered that! As I've stated earlier in this thread We need to be at DEFCON two and remove our useless ambaßador from Moscow...and find another SEC of State that ain't Blinkin', :Kaleun_Wink:n' or :Kaleun_Sleep:n'. Moreover on 60 Minutes this weekend past, the President of Ukraine admitted that Ukraine's giving up its third largest nuclear arsenal was a mistake...I wonder what remaining plums: Lithuania, Estonia, and Latvia are contemplating at this juncture:ping::ping::ping: :hmmm: Our best hope is that Mr Putin Age 69, dies...shortly w/o a legacy! :doh:

Big f’in Brass Ones I tell ya.

Broadcast live on television at 5.45am Moscow time, President Putin said:

[B]"Whoever tries to impede us, let alone create threats for our country and its people, must know that the Russian response will be immediate and lead to the consequences you have never seen in history."He needs a new speech writer...no IMHO 'bout it!

10,000 years from now after the radiation levels drop and maybe the fluffy squirels will be the dominant species :DWHACK!?? :Kaleun_Party::Kaleun_Salivating::Kaleun_Goofy: I was slightly wrong...we should be at DEFCON 1 and launch on Moscow now; and simply get on with Vlad's idea of history!

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRYlA5-ARTY

[Andreas86]

Sweden as a part of the JEF alliance I don't know what they contribute with.

Their track record is not good. In WW2 they aided the German occupation of Norway by allowing them transit on land up to our southern border. Germany were also allowed a free route through Sweden during the occupation years.

But if they still have some of Charles the XIIs spirit in them, they might just hold Gotland.

[mapuc]

Putin has been planning this for month-What else has he made up in his mind ?

Markus

[Rockstar]

This was Kyiv Mayor Vitaliy Klitschko address around 2100 Kyiv time it’s now 0232 there. ( I think )

https://kyivcity.gov.ua/news/vitaliy_klichko_zvernuvsya_do_kiyan_vsi_khto_gotov iy_zakhischati_svoye_misto_vstupayte_lo_lav_terobo roni/


Friends! Dear Kyivans, Ukrainians!

I inform you about the situation in Kyiv and the actions of the city authorities. Which we carry out in coordination with public authorities, the Armed Forces, law enforcement.

Today Ukraine is under fire from the aggressor. The dictator's impunity and fierce hatred resulted in a war in central Europe.

Bloody attacks by the aggressor continue in many regions of Ukraine. Our soldiers who heroically defend our land are dying. Peaceful people are dying.

They are trying to literally destroy our state. But no one will give up!

In Kyiv, we are doing everything we can to keep the situation under control. I know how everyone is worried and watching the news, but the important thing now is not to panic!

The city authorities ensure the functioning of the city's critical infrastructure. Infrastructure of housing and communal services.

Public transport - on routes, the subway rides. Travel is now free. But I urge to use public transport only those who work at strategic enterprises of the city. And goes to work or from work.

Everyone else - I appeal again - please stay at home. But at the alarm - follow to the shelter!

The city authorities in Kyiv are doing everything to protect the city and Kyiv.

It is for the safety of Kyivites and to counteract possible provocations that from today, at 10 pm, we will introduce a forced but necessary step in Kyiv. Curfew. Because, let me remind you, there is a state of war in Ukraine.

Curfew will be in effect from 22:00 until 07:00.

Public transport will not work during curfew.

But all subway stations - in case of alarm - are available to people at any time of day. To overcome danger.

I ask everyone to understand the seriousness of the situation and follow the rules that apply in the city today.

Due to curfew, return home on time. If it is absolutely necessary to move around the city during curfew - in particular, employees of critical infrastructure enterprises - it is necessary to have identity documents.

I would also like to remind you that we equip protective structures at the entrances to Kyiv and at checkpoints. Therefore, entering the city can be difficult. But not closed!

I will note that today there is a lot of misinformation, which is widely spread in order to sow panic. This is also part of Russia's war against Ukraine. Therefore, we trust only information from official sources!

And please do not spread information about the movement of our military and aircraft.

I also appeal to all who are ready to defend their city and their families! Join the ranks of territorial defense! Now this procedure is as simple as possible. Phones on resources, including social networks, Terro Defense and the Department of Municipal Security. Come and join. Let's defend our city together!

I want to thank the partners who support Ukraine today. They are imposing sanctions on Russia, providing Ukraine with weapons and other assistance.

Only joint and strong efforts can stop the enormous threat looming over Europe and the entire democratic world!

Thank you! Keep the shutter speed! We follow the rules dictated by the situation.

We must persevere!

Glory to Ukraine!

[Rockstar]

Latest from the General Staff of the Ukrainian Armed Forces

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=320405730149022

[nikimcbee]

I wonder how long that will be.

Putins creation does not have the structure of the old USSR or the Czarist monarchies that came before it. He's a one man cult of personality and afaik there's no heir apparent. So I think the day that he dies it all collapses with him.


Yeah, I think it would go back to the Mob, to fill the power vacuum.

[nikimcbee]

Their track record is not good. In WW2 they aided the German occupation of Norway by allowing them transit on land up to our southern border. Germany were also allowed a free route through Sweden during the occupation years.

But if they still have some of Charles the XIIs spirit in them, they might just hold Gotland.


They could unleash Greta on them?


Jam their broadcasts with "How dare you! and Blah blah blah."

[Rockstar]

I tell ya if Ukraine pulls this off they got my vote NATO membership.

[Cybermat47]

They could unleash Greta on them?


Jam their broadcasts with "How dare you! and Blah blah blah."

Well, being forced to listen to a young woman who’s passionate about the environment would be a lot nicer than being sent to die in a foreign country by some crazy old fascist.

[nikimcbee]

I tell ya if Ukraine pulls this off they got my vote NATO membership.


I don't know, how they tell who is who? Would not want to be a pilot in this, that's for sure.

[Andreas86]

Seems that the Ukrainian Airforce has been engaged in heavy air battles:

From Censor-net:

"Today at 5 am the occupying forces launched massive missile strikes on Ukrainian cities and military facilities of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. The Air Force was the first to take these strikes.

The air defense system of the state withstood the first blows of the enemy. The main targets of the occupiers were combat control points, radar units of the Air Force, anti-aircraft missile forces and military airfields.

The Air Force aircraft successfully escaped the enemy's blow and inflicted devastating losses on the enemy during the day, "the statement reads.

The information emphasizes: "Yes, in the air battle with Ukrainian Su-27s, the enemy lost two Su-30 SM fighters, and Su-24M bombers, Su24MR reconnaissance and Su-25 attack aircraft struck several powerful rocket and bomb strikes near Gostomel airfield. and returned without loss.

It was there, near Kyiv, that the enemy landed a Russian landing party from several dozen combat helicopters to capture a bridgehead on the outskirts of the Ukrainian capital.

"The Ukrainian Defense Forces, including aircraft, tanks and artillery, are not allowing the enemy to carry out their plan and are successfully destroying the occupiers."
"During the current day, the state air defense system destroyed about 15 enemy aircraft (information is being clarified), dozens of cruise missiles" Caliber ", as well as missiles of operational and tactical complexes" Iskander ".

Unfortunately, the Air Force suffered heavy losses. We express our condolences to the family and friends of the Ukrainian defenders who gave their lives in the fight against the insidious Russian occupier. But we have persevered and continue to fight for our freedom, for our land, for our people! ", - the message sums up.

Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the fallen heroes! Death to the occupiers! Джерело: https://censor.net/ua/n3318959

[nikimcbee]

I found this on the Ukrainian Navy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_Ukrainian_Navy_ships

[Andreas86]

While US news channels debate whether russian troops really support Putin and his ideology, I'm watching webcams from Ukraine roads with endless columns of tanks, BMPs and supply trucks, many of which flying the SOVIET hammer and sickle flag...!

[Catfish]

If Europe has proved one thing in this situation, it is that they couldn't even agree on the size of a meal at McDonalds.
Yes. I also have to say i am really ashamed for the german government. They should have helped Ukraine in a meaningful way. At least there are now some who see they were wrong, but too late.

Ok no one really thought that Putin would go full out for war, especially against fellow russians. And yesterday he said, publicly:

"To anyone who would consider interfering from the outside - if you do, you will face consequences greater than any you have faced in history."

Threatening with nuclear war :hmmm:
I withdraw my assumption that Putin is "rational". He has either gone crazy (maybe borderline) or he realizes there will be some "problems" soon, for him.
I take it that there also might be some consequences for Russia if Putin keeps re-occupying all those countries by force, that preferred to leave the soviet block after 1989.

[Skybird]

They still havent excluded Russia from SWIFT. That means America AND europe are STILL FINANCING THE RUSSIAN ATTACK, even now.


Turkey has the right to close the Dardanelles for Russian warship.That old treaty gives them this right in certain circumstances - like now. Erdoghan still has not done so. Why?


The German finance ministre fears Putin has already established a replacement for SWIFT. He coul be right, there was news some weeks ago Putin did that, a mechanism not as far reaching as swift, but suffiecently so.



The West still acts weak and jndetermined. Hilarious. Putins calculation of western responses so far work correct.



Shame on you all, dear West.

[Catfish]

"In the end, Ukraine is nothing more than an excuse. What is really at stake here is the international order being challenged by new emerging powers, in this case, Russia.

In a way, we are beginning to see how Russia will act on the world stage in the future.
Putin believes that the United States still regards Latin America as its backyard and based on this, claims that Russia has the same right to influence Ukraine, Belarus and other nations in its surrounding area."

So, a sweeping blow? Just heard that Lavrov threatens to station 'weapon systems' near the US, talk is of Venezuela, Nicaragua, maybe Argentina, and.. Cuba.
I doubt the latter, Cuba is meanwhile ideologically separated since it is socialist and Russia capitalist.

[Catfish]

Hacker group Anonymous has taken down RT.com.
Of course this will not change much, and it will not last for long, but at least they did something.

[Skybird]

Tells something about Germany that they prohibit RT to broadcast - and do nothing about RT nevertheless continuing to broadcast.

Reports say that the Russian now want to negotiate, and have no intention to occupy Ukraine, only want to denazify and demilitarize and bla and bla and blablabla. "Denazify", ha!

Just assume for a moment they do like they say this indeed, do not occupy, only demilitarise and make sure, in their own words, that a truly democratically elected government is in place that reflects the diversity of the Ukrainian society, so Lavrov's vocabulary. If it comes this way, then we have the idea of the Russian plan, it is to indeed install a puppet regime in Kyiv (finally i get that city name right...) that depends on Moscow and takes Moscow'S commands much like Lukashenko now is Putin'S puppet again and Belarus now is taking Russian commands as well.

The bad news is that Ukraine is lost as a free and independent state. The good news is that Putin has not gone insane completely and thus: unpredictable, and we all maybe do not sit on a powderkeg whose explosion is imminent. In other words, we won time.

IF this is indeed what the Russians want and will do. But who does trust in them anymore? We need to wait and then will see.

We nevertheless should kick Russia out of SWOFT even if this hurts as tremendously as well. We should stop doing any sort of business with them. ANY sort of business, no matter what. We are feeding a rabid dog with our bare hands if we continue to do that.

Germany must switch back on those three nuclear plants it just has switched off few weeks ago, and it must stop the decommissioning of the last three nuclear reactors by the end of this year. I mean, already before the Ukraine desaster all world was laughing about us, how thundering will the laughing become if we still do not react? Switching off safe and clean powerplants long before one has replaced their capacity, how stupid is this...?

[Onkel Neal]

Ukraine ready for talks with Russia on neutral status (https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reuters.com%2Fworld%2Feu rope%2Fukraine-ready-talks-with-russia-neutral-status-official-2022-02-25%2F%3F)

If true, this is about the best outcome the rest of us could hope for. But probably too late.

[Rockstar]

Ya I don’t think there is any reason to believe Russia is interested in neutrality talks. Putin stated near the outset he has no intention of occupying Ukraine. Which IMO means he intends to install a puppet government that will define his forces from being occupiers to just visiting.

[Rockstar]

Vitali Klitschko: The capital has entered the defense phase

February 25, 2022, 2:19 p.m.

https://kyivcity.gov.ua/news/vitaliy_klichko_stolitsya_vstupila_v_fazu_oboroni/

(Using google translate)

Kyiv Mayor Vitaliy Klitschko said that the capital has entered the defense phase. But he urged Kyiv residents to be vigilant, careful and not to leave their homes or shelters unnecessarily. Vitali Klitschko stated this during an urgent online briefing on Kyiv TV.

“I would like to inform you about the situation in Kyiv and the actions of the city authorities in the conditions of Russian aggression and martial law in the capital. The situation is complicated and tense. Today the Russian army attacked Kyiv. After four in the morning, missile strikes were fired on residential areas of Kyiv. A residential building at 7-A Koshytsia Street was badly damaged by the rocket. Four residents of the house were injured. An elderly civilian was also injured in a collision between a Russian armored vehicle and a private car in Obolon. He is in intensive care at an ambulance. In serious condition. In connection with the approach of active hostilities, the city authorities are urging residents of Obolon district not to go outside. Because it is dangerous. Stay indoors - at home or in shelters. You can leave only if, at the signal of the air alarm, you go to the shelter. WITH map of shelters can be found on the website and social networks of the city authorities. I urge residents of other districts of Kyiv not to leave their homes or shelters. In order not to be in danger, ”Vitaliy Klitschko will address Kyiv residents.

According to the mayor, the capital has entered the defense phase.

“The city has entered the defense phase. Now in some areas of the capital shots and explosions are heard. Ukrainian military neutralizes Russian sabotage groups. The enemy is already in Kyiv. We must keep the capital that the enemy wants to bring to its knees and destroy! ” Klitschko emphasized.

According to Vitali Klitschko, all those who can defend the city must join and resist - to help Ukrainian soldiers.

"Today, the armed forces are showing heroism and self-sacrifice. For us with you. For the sake of our state. The Ukrainian army is defending Kyiv. The situation is complicated. But we believe in our Armed Forces. We support them and help in every possible way. Today, I urge Kyiv residents to be especially vigilant: to report suspicious objects and marks planted by saboteurs to adjust enemy fire. As the city government, we are doing everything possible to keep the situation under control. We ensure the functioning of the city's critical infrastructure. Infrastructure of housing and communal services. Public transport and the metro in the city are working. However, I would like to note that the Dnipro, Hydropark, Livoberezhna, Darnytsia, Chernihivska, and Lisova ground stations will not work with the Air Alarm signal. They are not safe for sheltering and transporting passengers.

He noted that in the event of an air alarm and the activation of sirens - underground stations are open to shelter residents at any time of day - to withstand the threat.
At the same time, the mayor of Kyiv called on Kyiv residents to stock up on water, food and basic necessities. Prepare warm clothes, blankets - to take them
while in shelter.

"I have said and will say again today that there is a lot of misinformation that is being spread in order to sow panic. This is also part of Russia's war against
Ukraine. Therefore, we trust only information from official sources. No matter how difficult it is, keep calm! We support our Armed Forces, which are defending us today and fighting for Ukrainian land. Fighting continues in many Ukrainian cities. And our soldiers are well "pouring" the aggressor. Today Ukraine shows itself as a country that resolutely, with dignity and selflessly defends its freedom, statehood and democratic choice! It will be difficult, because the horde is big. But we must persevere! Glory to Ukraine!" - Vitali Klitschko emphasized.

[mapuc]

In a way I feel very sad-They are on their own against a military superpower, where the only thing we can do is to send weapons, money and support them morally.

Only weapon we have is sanction-but how much does these affect Russian economy ?

Edit
In a twitter the Ukrainian President ask European men with fighting experience to join the Ukrainian in the struggle against Russia
This was copied by a Danish politician who in extension wrote:
"European countries cannot do this. But European citizens can do well. Do not let any government stand in the way of those who want to go out and fight for freedom and justice. Let soldiers who want to fight in Ukraine step outside the number. Others can contribute financially"
End edit

Markus

[clayton]

Take those SOB’s out of SWIFT. There is no such thing as neutrality with a tyrant. It's a matter of time before they show their hand, and it will continue until Putin’s next temper tantrum. Strike the Russian people hard until they overthrow that little wannabe corporal.

[Skybird]

Ukraine ready for talks with Russia on neutral status (https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reuters.com%2Fworld%2Feu rope%2Fukraine-ready-talks-with-russia-neutral-status-official-2022-02-25%2F%3F)

If true, this is about the best outcome the rest of us could hope for. But probably too late.
Yes, but unrealistic, I fear. Putin wants a puppet regime. That hardly is "neutrality", but vasallship. He also wants no democracy in the Ukraine. Thats a mind poison that could further drip from Ukraine into Russia.

[Rockstar]

In a way I feel very sad-They are on their own against a military superpower, where the only thing we can do is to send weapons, money and support them morally.

Only weapon we have is sanction-but how much does these affect Russian economy ?

Markus

Putin didn’t just think about invasion last week, they’ve had years to prepare. In his speech before the invasion he stated: “No matter how the events unfold, we are ready. All the necessary decisions in this regard have been taken. I hope that my words will be heard”. Some immediately think he’s only talking about the nuke option. However I’d wager those “necessary decisions” also include preparing Russia’s own economy against even more sanctions and I bet that includes SWIFT.

Unless Ukraine can pull a rabbit out of their hat. Things will eventually settle and we’ll get back to business as usual. With Russia controlling the hub of European Asian trade routes.

https://www.hoover.org/research/how-big-are-russias-foreign-exchange-reserves

https://www.mei.edu/publications/russia-black-sea





Big f’in brass ones

[Skybird]

German media report that it was explicitly Scholz' pressure - oh dear once again the Germans, its tiresome with them - that prevented the EU to disconnect Russia from SWIFT.

Its unbelievable, this German policy madness makes me sick, sick, sick. We directly finance Russia's war of attack against the Ukraine! Every business company still doing business with Russia makes itself an accomplice of Putin.

Germany must bite the bitter fruit and accept the - massive! - fallout from disconnecting Russia from SWIFT. Maybe it is a helpful experience for the Germans if some millions of them cannot heat or sit in darkness for some days. When existential needs occupy their minds and command their daily actions they have less time to endlessly dream fancy, supersmart, politically correct, world-improving, masterfully designed, morally utmost perfecly founded concepts and plans for how to lecture mankind of how to become a better lifeform. :doh:

Scholz' own party, the SPD, is said to be in growing parts against him.


If Putin has a replacement for SWIFT in place already, and I think he has, then excluding Russia from SWIFT nevertheless would do them damage, make it nevertheless more costly for Russia. It will likely not break them their neck, but it will do them the best of pains we can inflict on them. But then, lets not forget that, Scholz said the pipeline is just "frozen", not dead. I think he already plans for opening ties and trade with Russia again.