The all purpose terrorism thread featuring plenty of allah akbar

[Rockstar]

Accusations of war crimes can easily be prevented simply by not going to war.

What really interests me is why is there a war to begin with? What is Russia protecting other than its own interests and who is pushing for the removal of Assad and Russia's sphere of influence?

Is it really necessary? Oh thats right I forgot we're told its for freedom and democracy.

[Nippelspanner]

Accusations of war crimes can easily be prevented simply by not going to war.
Uh, like rape can be prevented by not wearing short skirts? :doh:
No one forces anyone to commit war crimes in a war, really.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Rockstar http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/haylazblue/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2437254#post2437254)
Accusations of war crimes can easily be prevented simply by not going to war.
---

Uh, like rape can be prevented by not wearing short skirts? :doh:

Your logic, your comparison is seriously failing here.

Poland could have prevented to get invaded by not provoking Hitler?

Kuwait could have prevented to get invaded by not having provoked Saddam?

You may not wish to find yourself in a war. But sometimes war nevertheless finds you.

And if that is the case, then you either accept to commit suicide or to surrender, that is called radical pacifism and is quite ruinous to your own autonomy - , or you decide to defend yourself and fight back.

But then some clever Willy strolls by and tells you that due to using force yourself you are not any better than the attacker who attacked you first. :06: Thats is as clever as somebody reminding me that I cannot eat the gold I own and thus better should sell it...

War follows its own logic and demands. You end up in hells kitchen if you try to assess these by standards that are usable in peacetimes - both intellectually, emotionally and in reality. Peace might be more than the absence of war, but war is the absence of peace for sure. To define war by something that does not exist, since war is wartime and not peacetime, is absurd.

War is not the continuation of peace by other means. :03:

Rockstar is right. War events - and war crimes are part of war, whether that is wanted or not, you simply have to expect such things to happen - can be prevented from happening - by finding ways to not going to war and not having war finding you.

[Nippelspanner]

Your logic is seriously failing here.
No, you just don't get it, but that's your problem.

Poland could have prevented to get invaded by not provoking Hitler?
Yep, you don't get it.
Stopped reading there. This is pointless.

[Skybird]

Tell me - are you levitating already? Your last words somehow had a breath of divine verdict around them... :D

[MaDef]

Accusations of war crimes can easily be prevented simply by not going to war.

What really interests me is why is there a war to begin with? What is Russia protecting other than its own interests and who is pushing for the removal of Assad and Russia's sphere of influence?

Is it really necessary? Oh thats right I forgot we're told its for freedom and democracy.

Darwin's Law of Natural Selection plays a large part. along with man-kinds penchant for self destruction. ;)

[Bilge_Rat]

what is happening in Aleppo may be a war crime, but that is academic since neither Syria nor Russia are subject to the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court. The U.N. security council has the power to refer cases to the ICC, but of course, that will not happen as long as Russia has a veto.

What is happening in Syria is a tragedy, but there is no easy solution. The West wants Assad to go, fine, but what then? who will take over?

The West does not have a good track record in the ME. Full invasion of Iraq turned into a bloody quagmire. Trying to support rebels on the ground in Libya turned into a civil war, a failed state and insecurity in the entire region since Ghadaffi's arsenal supplied every terrorist organization in the region with heavy weapons, one result being the invasion of Mali and an ongoing guerilla war throughout North Africa.

The West is hoping that it will all turn out OK on its own, that Assad will leave and a western style liberal democratic government will replace it. The time for that is long gone though, the only way that will happen is if a multinational military force goes in, imposes order and builds a democratic government from the ground up. What are the chances of that happening?

As to why Russia is involved, there seem to be two principal rationale:

1. Putin does not agree with western style regime change. Russia tacitly agreed to the 2011 Libya operation and the result is a mess. Western policy in Syria up until last year was basically leading to another Libya scenario;

2. Putin is involved in Syria as a bargaining chip to secure a more favorable outcome to the Ukraine war, i.e. sanction relief and better ultimate peace deal.

I personally think it has more to with #2 than #1.

[Dowly]

Fourth Geneva Convention

Wounded and sick III. Protection of hospitals

Civilian hospitals organized to give care to the wounded and sick, the infirm and maternity cases, may in no circumstances be the object of attack, but shall at all times be respected and protected by the Parties to the conflict.
States which are Parties to a conflict shall provide all civilian hospitals with certificates showing that they are civilian hospitals and that the buildings which they occupy are not used for any purpose which would deprive these hospitals of protection in accordance with Article 19.
Civilian hospitals shall be marked by means of the emblem provided for in Article 38 of the Geneva Convention for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field of August 12, 1949, but only if so authorized by the State.
The Parties to the conflict shall, in so far as military considerations permit, take the necessary steps to make the distinctive emblems indicating civilian hospitals clearly visible to the enemy land, air and naval forces in order to obviate the possibility of any hostile action.
In view of the dangers to which hospitals may be exposed by being close to military objectives, it is recommended that such hospitals be situated as far as possible from such objectives.

Wounded and sick IV. Discontinuance of protection of hospitals

The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit, and after such warning has remained unheeded.
The fact that sick or wounded members of the armed forces are nursed in these hospitals, or the presence of small arms and ammunition taken from such combatants and not yet handed to the proper service, shall not be considered to be acts harmful to the enemy.


If both parties are signatories, then these are the rules. Plain and simple.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

If both parties are signatories, then these are the rules. Plain and simple.Emphasis is mine. How is situation considered to be, when both major parties in one side are signatories, but other side does not include any (directly participating) state actor which could sign up?

[Skybird]

http://aytiws.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/war-of-the-wrolds_11.jpg
Written spell versus death beam 0:1.

You can take it as granted fact that all major countries able to wage cyber warfare, are ready and prepared to destroy civilian infrastructure like powergrids and water suplies, even to destroy dams and to defunct airport controls and to derail trains and send nuclear powerplants into travel-to-China mode, and they do not care then one bit for Geneva Convention or Hague Convention or whether they kill people in hospitals.

Welcome in the 21st century.

[Bilge_Rat]

Interesting .... US/UK is accusing Russia of war crimes for allegedly using "Bunker Busting" bombs against targets in Aleppo.

Turns out NATO has also dropped "Bunker Busting " bombs in Libya and the current campaign against ISIS:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/26/raf-uses-largest-bunker-buster-bombs-for-first-time-in-isil-war/

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/peter-goodspeed-the-final-push-to-depose-gaddafi

So why is the use of such ordnance now a "war crime"? because the Russians are dropping them instead of NATO? :hmmm:

[mapuc]

Interesting .... US/UK is accusing Russia of war crimes for allegedly using "Bunker Busting" bombs against targets in Aleppo.

Turns out NATO has also dropped "Bunker Busting " bombs in Libya and the current campaign against ISIS:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/26/raf-uses-largest-bunker-buster-bombs-for-first-time-in-isil-war/

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/peter-goodspeed-the-final-push-to-depose-gaddafi

So why is the use of such ordnance now a "war crime"? because the Russians are dropping them instead of NATO? :hmmm:

Not to take side

Didn't NATO use their Bunker Buster against the ordinary Libyan army, while Russia/Syria has used it against a non-ordinary army.

Markus

[Skybird]

Not to take side

Didn't NATO use their Bunker Buster against the ordinary Libyan army, while Russia/Syria has used it against a non-ordinary army.

Markus
The Syrians/Russians use them against tunnels and subterranean enemy strongholds and storage sites, apparently. Just saying.

Israel went after such subterranean targets as well during Gaza 2006. The amount of destruction in Aleppo is for the same reasons like in Gaza, I assume: its densely populated, urban environments with buildings standing side by side.

Tell the rebels to line up in the desert so that they can be bombed there, and collateral damages will go down in Aleppo. :hmmm: Also helps to save the amount of atockpiled bunker busters the Syrians got delivered from the Russians (at least I think they got them from them, as long as the Russians do not bomb themselves).

[Bilge_Rat]

the Guardian has a more in depth article on the subject:

Justin Bronk, research fellow at the defence thinktank RUSI, explained that bunker-busters are a very specific kind of destructive precision weaponry. “They show up as very different-shaped craters. They go very deep and explode deep underground so they tend to leave deeper but less wide craters than other bombs.”

He added it was very unlikely Russia would use such specific bombs at random or simply to blitz a city since they are very expensive and require specific targeting intelligence to be worth using. If they hit an underground shelter the number of deaths would be huge, but it would be much lower than other generalised heavy bombs if no specific target had been located.

He added it was quite possible Russia had acquired detailed information on the location of opposition headquarters. Both sides in the conflict are very aware the other is using underground tunnels to fight these quite static battles, and may have good intelligence of the other’s networks.

He added the most likely bomb being deployed was the laser-guided KAB-500L, analogous to the US Paveway series.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/26/syria-aleppo-russia-bunker-buster-bomb-reports

If Russia is using this ordnance, it is presumably to hit underground rebel structures, which are military targets.

If Russia is using the bombs to deliberately hit civilian targets, then yes that would be a war crime, although there are more effective, less expensive way to hit civilian targets then using PGMs.

In 2011, NATO frequently used "Bunker Busting" bombs to hit underground military targets in downtown Tripoli.

This war is getting worse by the day and there is no end in sight.

[Schroeder]

This war is getting worse by the day and there is no end in sight.
Actually there now is an end in sight. Not in near sight but the Syrian army is gaining ground thanks to the air support they get. Our way of waging that war was just a never ending story. There is no way to win this without boots on the ground which is why our air campaign is about as helpful as Rolling Thunder was in Vietnam IMHO.
The Russian/Syrian way of fighting is dirty and cruel but at least they are making progress so there might be an end to this nightmare somewhere down the road instead of this never ending carnage that we've had until now.

[mapuc]

Actually there now is an end in sight. Not in near sight but the Syrian army is gaining ground thanks to the air support they get. Our way of waging that war was just a never ending story. There is no way to win this without boots on the ground which is why our air campaign is about as helpful as Rolling Thunder was in Vietnam IMHO.
The Russian/Syrian way of fighting is dirty and cruel but at least they are making progress so there might be an end to this nightmare somewhere down the road instead of this never ending carnage that we've had until now.

Could also be the start of the next step in the war.

Markus

[August]

Could also be the start of the next step in the war.

Markus

I'm afraid you're right. This doesn't end with an Assad victory.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

I'm afraid you're right. This doesn't end with an Assad victory.Well, at the moment it looks like Russians have decided this won't end to their defeat either.

If someone has Syrian leader candidate in mind who would be palatable for both West and Russia, and who would be willing to provide guarantees for Russia's interests (whatever they may be), then I would like to know who that miracle maker is. Otherwise Assad's victory and iron fist rule looks like best of bad options...

[Skybird]

I'm afraid you're right. This doesn't end with an Assad victory.
It ends with a split Syria if Assad stays. The part he controls as a Russian puppet then, maybe will regain some stability, the rest will drown in civil war between those who now are "united" to fight him.

If Assad's side looses, then all of Syria will drown in such a civil war, not just some part.

The worst is yet to come.

Or in other words: Syria, as a nation with the borders we once knew, is a thing of the past. The stability and predictability that was there before, though enforced with an iron fist, was to be preferred to the unpredictable chaos there is now, and will be for many more years to come - if not for decades.

Winner:clearly Russia. It keeps its wanted naval base in the Mediterranean. And has managed to lure the West again into making a fool of itself.

Lets see if somebody in Europe and Washington learns the lesson this time, finally. By now the lecture has been repeated often enough, one would think.

[MaDef]

Well, at the moment it looks like Russians have decided this won't end to their defeat either.

If someone has Syrian leader candidate in mind who would be palatable for both West and Russia, and who would be willing to provide guarantees for Russia's interests (whatever they may be), then I would like to know who that miracle maker is. Otherwise Assad's victory and iron fist rule looks like best of bad options...While I understand the reasons Russia is involved In the Syrian civil war, I don't quite get the reason the rest of us are involved. This civil war is and should remain an internal matter between the Syrian Government and her citizens.

[August]

It ends with a split Syria if Assad stays. The part he controls as a Russian puppet then, maybe will regain some stability, the rest will drown in civil war between those who now are "united" to fight him.

You think that Assad/Putin will stop before they regain control over the entire country?

[mapuc]

If Assad and Putin has decided to go into highest gear, then I predict that USA and NATO will go into the war on the YPG/Free Syrian army's side

If the West somehow get Assad to approve a real free election I predict a new civil war-depending who win this election-This because no side in this ongoing civil war, will recognize the outcome.

So either this civil war will grow or it will go on for decades and if, as Skybird wrote, Syria was divided into several small states there will be war between these.

Markus

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

I don't believe in serious American or NATO intervenition. There are two primary reasons:
1) Most NATO countries are preoccupied with refugee crisis. There is no guarantee that boots-in-the-ground approach against Russia and Syrian government would provide any benefit.
2) It is election year in USA. There are not many people who would benefit from proposing war with Russia, atleast not before election day.

[mapuc]

I don't believe in serious American or NATO intervenition. There are two primary reasons:
1) Most NATO countries are preoccupied with refugee crisis. There is no guarantee that boots-in-the-ground approach against Russia and Syrian government would provide any benefit.
2) It is election year in USA. There are not many people who would benefit from proposing war with Russia, atleast not before election day.

You could be 100 % right, I'm not an expert on foreign affairs or Middle east politics, I can only give further, what i for about a week ago heard a journalist(some expert on Middle east) saying

(from my memory)
All the effort to come to an agreement on a ceasefire and a solution, seems ineffective and then something about the only solution then would be USA, EU/NATO had to go to war against Syria and Russia.

Markus

[Skybird]

If Assad and Putin has decided to go into highest gear, then I predict that USA and NATO will go into the war on the YPG/Free Syrian army's side

If the West somehow get Assad to approve a real free election I predict a new civil war-depending who win this election-This because no side in this ongoing civil war, will recognize the outcome.

So either this civil war will grow or it will go on for decades and if, as Skybird wrote, Syria was divided into several small states there will be war between these.

Markus

The US and NATO will not confront Russia or syria in major war over Syria. Too much a worry for too little gain.

I do not think Syria will fall apart into several states. Just a reduced core state controlled by Assad, its territories and the population there matching his ethnic background, and the rest will be endlessly fought over by his enemies. Libanon on mind. Assad seems to stay in power, but he probably will not get away with all of the former size of Syria anymore.

However, I already got once proven terribly wrong over Syria. Some years ago I said, before the Russians went serious, that I cannot imagine him to hold out any longer and that he will soon be defeated. How wrong I was. The Russians made all the difference.

[Oberon]

Meanwhile India claims to have carried out surgical strikes across the Line of Control in Kashmir targetting Islamic extremists, Pakistan has denied that such attacks actually took place and warns of consequences if they actually do. The closing of the border ceremony at Waggah has been called off and the Indian stock exchange crashed 150 points.

[HunterICX]

Meanwhile India claims to have carried out surgical strikes across the Line of Control in Kashmir targetting Islamic extremists, Pakistan has denied that such attacks actually took place and warns of consequences if they actually do. The closing of the border ceremony at Waggah has been called off and the Indian stock exchange crashed 150 points.

*checks calendar*

Yep..it's thursday alright.

[Oberon]

*checks calendar*

Yep..it's thursday alright.

Nonsense, there'd have been a shooting in the US if it was. :O:

[Jimbuna]

Meanwhile, the US tells Russia it will end talks if bombing continues.

I can't see that having much of an impact.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-37497220

[Bilge_Rat]

so..how about a good news story for once...

Syrian refugee comes to the rescue of Canadian bride's wedding dress

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/29/syrian-refugee-comes-to-the-rescue-of-canadian-brides-wedding-dress

[U505995]

Nonsense, there'd have been a shooting in the US if it was. :O:

There are shootings everyday in the US, most are gang related inner city violence that never make the news. The media only care about the rare mass shootings that they can use to push their anti-gun agenda. I live in a more rural area where there's some type of firearm in almost every household, often more than one. The only shootings that happen around here are 99.9% accidents and even those are rare.

[mapuc]

Been thinking, after have read some of the comments in this thread and watching the Danish news

I came to the conclusion that we, the citizens have two choices

1. Close down on every news coming from Aleppo/Syria
or if this is impossible
2. Say - so what, why should I care, when watching the news from that area

´cause they will keep on bombing and killing-until they have reached their goal. All form for sanction seems useless and none of us is really interested in a conflict between USA/NATO and Russia/Syria

So pick your number. 1 or 2.

Markus

[Oberon]

Been thinking, after have read some of the comments in this thread and watching the Danish news

I came to the conclusion that we, the citizens have two choices

1. Close down on every news coming from Aleppo/Syria
or if this is impossible
2. Say - so what, why should I care, when watching the news from that area

´cause they will keep on bombing and killing-until they have reached their goal. All form for sanction seems useless and none of us is really interested in a conflict between USA/NATO and Russia/Syria

So pick your number. 1 or 2.

Markus

I think number 2 is how most people are doing it. :hmmm:

[Schroeder]

Speaking of a different kind of Terror today is the 75th anniversary of the massacre of Babi Yar where German forces shot 33,771 Jewish people over the course of two days.:-?:dead:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Yar

[Skybird]

Been thinking, after have read some of the comments in this thread and watching the Danish news

I came to the conclusion that we, the citizens have two choices

1. Close down on every news coming from Aleppo/Syria
or if this is impossible
2. Say - so what, why should I care, when watching the news from that area

´cause they will keep on bombing and killing-until they have reached their goal. All form for sanction seems useless and none of us is really interested in a conflict between USA/NATO and Russia/Syria

So pick your number. 1 or 2.2, without remorse.

To look away, is a valid and moral (!) option. Because:

If you use the situation in any drama like this to propagate absolute morals, not only do you reserve the right to demand total control over the public's and politian's and individual's actions and reactions regarding this drama, but as I read an argument yesterday: you ironically also destroy moral itself. Because a moral value system in the rank of an absolute while dealing with an always imperfect, never perfect world, necessarily must fail to live up to it standards. It will always fail, and it will render itself as useless, void and pointless because it then needs to realise its own irrelevance and imperfection - while still claim absolute status for itself. "Imperfect" and "absolute" do not go well together.

I hate it that it was an extremely left-leaning writer - with whom I have many quarrels - pointing this out, but he nailed my own thinking completely there. My own reaction, when they try to replace reason and argument with photos of big sad children's faces with tears in their eyes, always is very cold, and emotionally underwhelmed. I simply refuse to allow others to emotionally manipulate me, to turn my morals against me to blackmail me into agreement with them, and to bypass my reason and intellect on the grounds of suggestive media language and confused sentiments. And I take it personal that the other is even trying to trick me like this.

I reserve the right to reject all this, and to look away, unimpressed. I also refuse to feel bad for that, to excuse for that, and I even claim my position to be that of healthier morality. And as a matter of fact: I also do not feel bad for looking awqay even if I would ignore and would have no clue of all the intellctual thoughts above. I just see myself not feeling urged to react to this input, naturally and by my inner nature: it is no stimulus that turns a trigger in me. I also do not like the taste of ananas, no matter how hard I would try - I just can't stand ananas.

[Jimbuna]

Speaking of a different kind of Terror today is the 75th anniversary of the massacre of Babi Yar where German forces shot 33,771 Jewish people over the course of two days.:-?:dead:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Yar

Edited my initial figure of 3,700 :doh:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2438013&postcount=1538

[Catfish]

Speaking of a different kind of Terror today is the 75th anniversary of the massacre of Babi Yar where German forces shot 33,771 Jewish people over the course of two days.:-?:dead:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Yar

Only that politicians who have success and are not being convicted, would call this cynically "ethnical cleansing", and probably get away with it.

[Rockstar]

Speaking of a different kind of Terror today is the 75th anniversary of the massacre of Babi Yar where German forces shot 33,771 Jewish people over the course of two days.:-?:dead:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Yar

Hitler and what happened in WWII pales in comparision to what the British Empire did in India, China, North America, Kenya, Malaya, Tasmania, North America, Australia, South Africa just to name a few.

Heck reading history books from the losing side perspective I found that under British rule from 1757-1947 1.8 billion died from slavery, starvation, execution etc etc just in India alone.

[Tchocky]

[citation needed]

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

[citation needed]This. 1.8 billion dead divided into 190 years is little under 9.5 million per year. Sounds quite high to me. :hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

Hitler and what happened in WWII pales in comparision to what the British Empire did in India, China, North America, Kenya, Malaya, Tasmania, North America, Australia, South Africa just to name a few.

Heck reading history books from the losing side perspective I found that under British rule from 1757-1947 1.8 billion died from slavery, starvation, execution etc etc just in India alone.

I've honestly no idea how accurate your figure is without a link to the source but what I will say is........Hitlers actions were carried out in a miniscule area compared to the list of countries you are making mention of regarding the British Empire (North America twice).

[Skybird]

Me too would like to see a source for or the reasoning behind this 1.8 bn number. Mind you: at the late 19th/early 20th century the global population was just two thirds of that number, something about 1+ bn.

[Oberon]

I wouldn't entirely be surprised by that high figure, although it does seem a bit high, but I mean we created Concentration camps (although they were intended for internment rather than extermination), and the Jallianwala Bagh massacre, however I can't think of instances outside of Ireland and Scotland where the British government has undertook a deliberate course of ethnic cleansing. Except perhaps in Australia/Tasmania towards the indigenous habitants. The policy in India was more towards subjecation rather than destruction.

[mapuc]

Back to the civil war in Syria

Earlier today I saw and expert on Russia saying on Danish news that the only way to stop Russia from bombing/supporting Assad was to put action behind the words-draw a line and threaten to engage them(Russia/Syria) if they cross that line

It's the only type of language the Russians understand

Furthermore, some days ago some Danish politicians wanted to extend the Danish mandate around the engagement in Syria and Iraq. The mandate today give the Danish Air force to attack Daesh in Iraq and Syria and only Daesh.

Markus

[Oberon]

It's the only type of language the Russians understand

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-HolI7eSVVA8/T3uWYUMF_0I/AAAAAAAAEkY/c8-LW2d2Os8/s1600/General+Curtis+Lemay.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98mJcPCmoow

[Betonov]

Back to the civil war in Syria

Earlier today I saw and expert on Russia saying on Danish news that the only way to stop Russia from bombing/supporting Assad was to put action behind the words-draw a line and threaten to engage them(Russia/Syria) if they cross that line


Do we want to stop Russia from supporting Assad ??
A lot of members of Subsim stated, me included, that Assad is the least of the 4 evils in the region and if anything, the Russians should take it up a notch.

[em2nought]

The whole Syria things feels a bit like this. Something that starts off small, and then grows like a metal fire on a British frigate in the Falklands.
http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/17/1745/49V3D00Z/posters/archduke-franz-ferdinand-and-his-wife-assassinated-in-sarajevo.jpg

[Catfish]

Before the whole mess got out of control, it would have been a good idea to stop or remove Assad from Syria's "government". But who would have been the next dictator? The, at first, promising arabian spring revolutions have somehow come to nought everywhere.
Now Assad seems to be the lesser evil in the region, which only shows how bad all the rest has developed, in comparison.

Do we want to stop Russia from supporting Assad ??

We the West sure do not win hearts with bombing hospitals and own forces, if erroneously (or not, who knows), or with not having a strategy clear to all involved.
Russia is always bad, we have learned this in the cradle, but we at least know that they support Assad.
Who do we support? Really, and over time?

[Jimbuna]

The whole Syria things feels a bit like this. Something that starts off small, and then grows like a metal fire on a British frigate in the Falklands.
http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/17/1745/49V3D00Z/posters/archduke-franz-ferdinand-and-his-wife-assassinated-in-sarajevo.jpg

I sincerely hope you're joking. When I think of frigates in the Falklands I can't help but remember there were 86 Royal Navy personnel lost during that period.

[Betonov]

The whole Syria things feels a bit like this. Something that starts off small, and then grows like a metal fire on a British frigate in the Falklands.


When WW1 broke everyone was able and itching to go.
Austria Hungary was just waiting for a reason to strike at Serbia, France just needed one spark to attack Germany. Germanies declaration of war against an ally Russia was more like an early christmas pressent. Britain was ready to cut the upstarts down to size and Belgium being violated was an excellent opportunity.
And we're talking about a full blown war, not a proxy war.

Right now it seems only the US is willing to go to war to counter Russia, and even there the population is shifting to pacifist.
Europe ?? Forget it, going into Syria is the a more effective way to loose the elections than hookers and fraud.

[Mr Quatro]

I always gave credit to President Obama for being a fence sitter and that was why we didn't have boots on the ground in Syria, but now I have to change my mind and realize that it was the US Congress that kept us from sending troops to Syria: http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/01/politics/kerry-audio-recording-syria/index.html


Kerry said this in a leaked audio tape recently

I lost the argument. I've argued for the use of force. I'm the guy who stood up and announced that we're going to attack Assad for the use of weapons," Kerry is heard telling the Syrian attendees, referring to internal deliberations within the administration of President Barack Obama that followed Assad's use of chemical weapons in 2013.

Kerry also faulted Congress for failing to support such a retaliatory strike, saying, "The bottom line is that Congress refused even to vote to allow that."

"We have a Congress that will not authorize our use of force," he added, explaining that a new military intervention would be difficult to bring about.

[mapuc]

Yesterday I watched a debate between two Danish politicians one from the left and one from the right.

The person who's from Syria are member in a conservative party (right wing)and he wants as the expert I talked about earlier the west to draw a line ind sand against Russia and Syria

The person from left said several time in the debate-do you want a WWIII
´cause that is what we will end with if we threaten Russia.

All this made me think

Right now there are some hundred of thousand civilians who are in desperat need of help in Syria and there are millions on the run

If the left wing person is correct and a "draw in the sand" will end in a WWIII then it will not be these hundred of thousands in desperat need it will be billions who would be in need-and there will be no help due to breakdown in our community=hospital, social benefits etc etc.

Markus

[Schroeder]

I always gave credit to President Obama for being a fence sitter and that was why we didn't have boots on the ground in Syria, but now I have to change my mind and realize that it was the US Congress that kept us from sending troops to Syria: http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/01/politics/kerry-audio-recording-syria/index.html


Kerry said this in a leaked audio tape recently
For once I'm glad we're not involved. Any other outcome but an Assad victory will lead to the same crap we've been through in Iraq and Afghanistan = power vacuum = never ending fighting between war lords and radical nut jobs.

[Skybird]

For once I'm glad we're not involved.
We are involved. Recce Tornadoes, tankers, one or two navy units.

Its just that we let others pull the triggers as an alibi that we do not get our hands dirty. We just shoot photos. But the Tornadoes could be downed and their pilots are at a certain risk every time they take off.

We should not be there. Nor any NATO, GBR, FRA, US. Of course also not the Russians, Iranians.

[Schroeder]

We are involved. Recce Tornadoes, tankers, one or two navy units.

Its just that we let others pull the triggers as an alibi that we do not get our hands dirty. We just shoot photos. But the Tornadoes could be downed and their pilots are at a certain risk every time they take off.

We should not be there. Nor any NATO, GBR, FRA, US. Of course also not the Russians, Iranians.
I meant that we're not involved on the ground.

[mapuc]

I meant that we're not involved on the ground.

We are

I can tell you that some 100 or so, special forces from the Danish frogman corps are in that area. Their main task is, what we have been told, to "enlighten" targets for the pilots so the smartbomb can hit the target
Second task is, if possible, kill high ranked Daesh soldiers

Some other special soldiers from Denmark are in Iraq to train YPG.

Markus

[Oberon]

The SAS are definitely there, the Beeb even got a leaked pic of them not that long ago:

http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article8590736.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/British-special-forces-in-Syria.jpg

The Syrian authorities also nicked a couple of SAS forces who they found crossing the border from Iraq a while back, but they released them back to us after some high level negotiations.
US Special Forces have also raided targets in Syria from time to time, Delta Force did a raid back in May 2015, I wouldn't be surprised if the KSK have been in there too after the attacks.

[Bilge_Rat]

if you follow reports, you will see U.S., U.K., French, Norwegian and Canadian special forces have all conducted ops in Syria.

On top of that, you have the private contractors, many ex-special forces who are "advising" Syrian Rebels.

Look at for example a group called the "New Syrian Army", ostensibly a syrian rebel group, but if you read what is available, you find out all the cadres are current or ex U.S., UK, Jordanian and Norwegian special forces. It uses the latest NATO equipment and has on call U.S. air/artillery support:

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2016/05/31/new-syrian-army-americas-tip-spear-isis-syrian-desert/

The "Boots are on the ground" and in much larger numbers than the official numbers.

[mapuc]

And there are special forces or soldiers from those units that have joined Daesh

Read this in a Swedish news paper some years ago. where it said that soldiers from special unit in Italy and France had joined Daesh.

Markus

[Oberon]

Look at for example a group called the "New Syrian Army", ostensibly a syrian rebel group, but if you read what is available, you find out all the cadres are current or ex U.S., UK, Jordanian and Norwegian special forces. It uses the latest NATO equipment and has on call U.S. air/artillery support:

The "Boots are on the ground" and in much larger numbers than the official numbers.

Reminds me of the Rhodesian war, quite a lot of our former special forces found employment training Rhodesian soldiers and volunteers.

[mapuc]

The real question or questions should rather be

1. How many boots from NATO/Europe are there in Syria and Iraq when it comes to fight Daesh ?

and

2. How much engage in the civil war are these, beside fighting Daesh ?
( I hope they are there solely to fight Daesh and nothing more. And of course to train others so they can fight Daesh)

Markus

[Oberon]

Classified and...erm...classified. :O:

I'd imagine now that they're focusing purely on Daesh, because they know that the side that they were supporting has now pretty much collapsed so the key is to undercut Daesh and stop it spreading across the border into Iraq. If they can get intel on what Assad and Russia are up to in the meantime then that's also good but I doubt that they'll be actively hitting Assad deliberately. They will probably be training people who will go on to hit Assad, but that's just peeing into the wind really.

[Bilge_Rat]

its all pretty hush, hush. Look at Canada, no official data, but if you follow news story, you find out Canadian special forces were on the ground officially as air spotters to help direct air strikes against ISIS and also sometimes got into firefights with ISIS troops, so they were on the front lines and Canada is a very minor player in Syria.

Canadian special operations forces are continuing to advise and assist Kurdish forces as they battle ISIS in a major offensive in the northern part of Iraq, an operation that brings with it the strong likelihood Canadian commandos are in combat today.

The Department of National Defence refuses to discuss what Canada's military advisers are currently up to, citing operational security. But following a series of queries from CBC News, it confirmed Canada's special forces have had no change to the mandate that allows them to accompany Kurdish forces up to and across front lines and into battle.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/special-forces-isis-iraq-combat-1.3318451

The Islamist militants made an audacious land grab attempt outside Mosul, in northern Iraq, but came unstuck when they ran into a hailstorm of bullets and bombs from Western forces.

Around 200 crazed terrorists were mown down by elite Canadian troops who rushed to the frontline to help pinned down Kurdish peshmerga forces protect their lands from the twisted invaders.

RAF bombers also joined in on the action, bombing the jihadis from the skies as their attempted invasion ended in panic and a full-on retreat.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/627834/Islamic-State-ISIS-Canada-special-forces-Kurds-RAF-jets-Iraq-Mosul

[mapuc]

They will probably be training people who will go on to hit Assad, but that's just peeing into the wind really.

While writing question number two I was thinking

I know Special forces from Denmark are in Iraq to train YPG, so they can fight Daesh in Syria-YPG is a Kurdish military group and is Denmark sure of that they don't use this "learned skills" in their fight against Turkey ?

Markus

[mapuc]

Word war between the US and Russia continue
The US has suspended talks with Russia about the ceasefire. Accused Russians for not doing enough to relief can reach those in need in Aleppo
The Russians on the other hand accuse the United States for failing to separating the rebels and for sending weapons to some of them in Aleppo

Markus

[Mr Quatro]

Lets think about this ...

The war started about 6 years ago in 2010
The USA backed the rebels in 2011

On September 22, 2014, the United States, Bahrain, Jordan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates began to strike targets of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) inside Syria,

Just our side not including Russia and Iran on Syria's side have been fighting for two years and some odd days and IS is still fighting back.

No Navy, no air force, no ground to air missiles, just a volunteer army of sorts and abandon weapons from the war in Iraq when they took over there.

Where do they get their supplies? How do they rearm?

Something doesn't add up to modern warfare with so much against IS that they still exsist is a wonder. :yep:

[Jimbuna]

Lets think about this ...

The war started about 6 years ago in 2010
The USA backed the rebels in 2011

On September 22, 2014, the United States, Bahrain, Jordan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates began to strike targets of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) inside Syria,

Just our side not including Russia and Iran on Syria's side have been fighting for two years and some odd days and IS is still fighting back.

No Navy, no air force, no ground to air missiles, just a volunteer army of sorts and abandon weapons from the war in Iraq when they took over there.

Where do they get their supplies? How do they rearm?

Something doesn't add up to modern warfare with so much against IS that they still exsist is a wonder. :yep:

This document should answer the above:

http://www.fatf-gafi.org/media/fatf/documents/reports/Financing-of-the-terrorist-organisation-ISIL.pdf

There are a great many more sources, some more authorative than others, here are a few:

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/10/06/world/meast/isis-funding/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/11052919/How-Isil-is-funded-trained-and-operating-in-Iraq-and-Syria.html

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2015/12/isil-sells-oil-buying-151206055403374.html

[Skybird]

Two policeman stabbed with knife in neck and stomach in Brussels in what police says they have reason to take as a terror attack. A third officer got his nose broken. Attacker was shot in the leg and arrested. Health status of the two stabbed officers unknown at this time.

[Oberon]

Lucky for them it was a small scale event, assuming that it is extremist based incident. At least police these days usually have stab vests and are well trained what to do with knife wounds since they are the favoured weapons of most street gangs.

[eddie]

Who the hell does Erdogan think he is?

"The Turkish parliament at the weekend extended by one year a government mandate allowing its troops to deploy on Iraqi soil -- as well as Syrian territory -- a decision the Iraqi parliament then rejected, calling for the withdrawal of the Turkish troops."

Iraq parliament told them to get out, but Turkish troops are stationed at that camp just north of Mosul. They claim they are training Iraqi fighters for the assault on Mosul. Probably there to help Daesh leaders to escape when the assault begins.


"Erdogan suggested at the weekend any liberation of Mosul had to be conducted by those with ethnic and religious ties to the city, objecting to the use of Shiite militiamen or anti-Ankara Kurdish forces.
Turkey is an overwhelmingly Sunni Muslim country with increasingly close ties to Sunni Muslim kingpin Saudi Arabia.
As he did with regard to Syria, Erdogan indicated he was particularly troubled by any use of fighters linked to the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), which has waged a 32-year insurgency inside Turkey and whose paramilitary headquarters are in northern Iraq.
"The game played by Shiite militias and members of the terrorist organisation linked to the PKK -- in complete contradiction of the region's sectarian and ethnic structure, its cultural sensitivities -- must be disrupted," he said."


I hope an IED takes out Erdogan, that pig!:rock:


http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/iraq-turkey-tensions-soar-over-impending-mosul-operation/ar-BBx1ldp

[Catfish]

Well his country is member of the NATO, so he is one of the good guys.
And we help him, as much as we can. Read our propaganda. :yep:

[Jimbuna]

Who the hell does Erdogan think he is?

"The Turkish parliament at the weekend extended by one year a government mandate allowing its troops to deploy on Iraqi soil -- as well as Syrian territory -- a decision the Iraqi parliament then rejected, calling for the withdrawal of the Turkish troops."

Iraq parliament told them to get out, but Turkish troops are stationed at that camp just north of Mosul. They claim they are training Iraqi fighters for the assault on Mosul. Probably there to help Daesh leaders to escape when the assault begins.


"Erdogan suggested at the weekend any liberation of Mosul had to be conducted by those with ethnic and religious ties to the city, objecting to the use of Shiite militiamen or anti-Ankara Kurdish forces.
Turkey is an overwhelmingly Sunni Muslim country with increasingly close ties to Sunni Muslim kingpin Saudi Arabia.
As he did with regard to Syria, Erdogan indicated he was particularly troubled by any use of fighters linked to the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), which has waged a 32-year insurgency inside Turkey and whose paramilitary headquarters are in northern Iraq.
"The game played by Shiite militias and members of the terrorist organisation linked to the PKK -- in complete contradiction of the region's sectarian and ethnic structure, its cultural sensitivities -- must be disrupted," he said."


I hope an IED takes out Erdogan, that pig!:rock:


http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/iraq-turkey-tensions-soar-over-impending-mosul-operation/ar-BBx1ldp

And just hours after the Kurds announced they were going to keep any land they liberated (Mosul included).

Surprise surprise and the possible next chapter in the whole mess about to take shape after ISIS are run out of town.

[Nippelspanner]

And just hours after the Kurds announced they were going to keep any land they liberated (Mosul included).
That... could be interesting. :doh:

[Oberon]

Oh great, back to the Kurd-bashing. That'll please newsreaders, trying to make sure they get the first letters the right way round when saying "Turkish Kurds"

[mapuc]

Two things which I have wondered about

1. In the late night news yesterday I heard Russia had given Assad their S-300-This got me thinking, today Assad, tomorrow...?

2. In a letter or something the Iraqi government have warned Turkey to leave Iraqi ground or the danger for a regional war were dangerously near
A real threat or ?

Markus

[eddie]

Iraq has told Erdogan, that if their troops don't leave Iraq, it could turn into a regional war. Motive behind Turkeys move is-

"In northern Syria, where Turkey is backing rebels fighting Islamic State, Ankara has warned that Kurdish militias are "filling the vacuum" left by Islamic State. Fearing that this will boost the Kurdish rebellion across the border in southeast Turkey, it has threatened to "cleanse" them."

Just what the area needs, is more war,lol


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-iraq-turkey-idUSKCN1250H9?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Social

[Oberon]

Meanwhile a Su-27 went sniffing into Finnish airspace briefly earlier today.

[eddie]

I read recently some Russian 160'a were in your area too, but didn't go into your air space.

[mapuc]

About this Russian fighter jets sniffing or what you call it, around some borders is nothing new- it happened on daily basis during the cold war

And both side did it.

End of - off Topic

Markus

[Oberon]

I read recently some Russian 160'a were in your area too, but didn't go into your air space.

Yeah, they do like to sniff around the area, never enter UK airspace though.

Here's a pic of the Finnish Flanker:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CuHOja1XYAE83Nf.jpg

[eddie]

Israel hit by a few rockets from Gaza, and Israeli jets respond. Geez, if they weren't trying to kill each other in the ME, they wouldn't have a stinking thing to do over there.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-idUSKCN1250NB

[Dowly]

Meanwhile a Su-27 went sniffing into Finnish airspace briefly earlier today.
Nothing new there, happens number of times each year.

[Betonov]

We once had a spy car sniffing into Croatia. They reached Zagreb before being caught.

[Tycho]

Some time ago, one from west landed on the Red square. So, a little sniffing here and there is hardly much of a problem.:D

[Dowly]

We once had a spy car sniffing into Croatia. They reached Zagreb before being caught.Did it have 'Google' written on the side? :O:

[Betonov]

Did it have 'Google' written on the side? :O:

Worse. It had "slovenska vojska" and an antenna array so it wasnt really hidding the fact it was a spy car.

[Schroeder]

Worse. It had "slovenska vojska" and an antenna array so it wasnt really hidding the fact it was a spy car.
Now that's smart...:doh:

[Betonov]

Now that's smart...:doh:

They got trough the border and reached the Croat capital un-noticed. It worked.

They made an affair out of it like war was to start. In the end someone lost some rank due to incompetent navigation and all the equipment was returned. Croats use the same set up so they didnt learned anything new.

[Jimbuna]

We once had a spy car sniffing into Croatia. They reached Zagreb before being caught.

Did it run out of petrol? :O:

[Oberon]

Turning back to the Middle East, the recently released Podesta Papers give an interesting insight into developments there.

https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/882

His [Erdogans] foreign policy has been based on having no enemies and calm on his borders. But he is now faced with chaos and conflict on his borders. He fears, with good reason an Iranian/Russian/Syrian/Kurdish axis. This, together with Turkey's slowing economic growth and large debt overhang, and his membership in NATO, gives us leverage. Indeed, one of the reasons he is warming-up to possible resumption of relations with Israel is his fear that he is isolated. He openly said he wants to restore relations with Israel. Likewise, he is taking a more conciliatory approach toward Cyprus, reciprocated by the new government there. This concern opens opportunities for the U.S. to get Erdogan to lean more to the West. Likewise, the burden of dealing with well over a million Syrian refugees, and the EU funds that will be provided to help keep them from coming to Europe, provides some leverage for the West.

Erdogan believes the U.S. needs Turkey more than Turkey needs the U.S. There was a division in the Board of how to deal with this problem. A few felt we should adopt a tougher tone to disabuse him of this belief, but a majority felt we should be exploring ways to take advantage of Turkey's economic problems and security threats to draw him closer to the U.S.

Turkey wants a No-Fly Zone in northern Syria to protect refugees and staunch the flow into Turkey .But this can only happen if they and others put boots on the ground.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CuNbnJjXYAEBq8s.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CuNeV-uWIAACDBx.jpg

[eddie]

And Russia has made its base in Syria permanent, shipments of supplies to the base has increased, and the aircraft from there that returned to bases in Russia have gone back to Syria. Mainly SU 24's and SU 34's. I like this part of the agreement that Russian has with Syria now-

“Russian military personnel and shipments can pass in and out of Syria at will and aren’t subject to controls by Syrian authorities,” the document says. “Syrians can’t enter Russian bases without Russia’s permission. And Russia disclaims any responsibility for damage caused by its activities inside Syria.” Additionally, according to the agreement, Russia receives use of the Khmeimim aviation base with no fee and does not have to pay taxes in Syria. :D

Syria, I hope you enjoy your new tenants,lol

Russia is also looking to reestablish bases in Cuba and Vietnam, but no indications yet from those 2 countries that the Russians would be welcome.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-has-its-permanent-air-base-in-syria-now-it%e2%80%99s-looking-at-cuba-and-vietnam/ar-BBx9Ff3

Mean while in the Baltic-

Estonian officials have said that Russia appears to be moving powerful, nuclear capable missiles into Kaliningrad, a Russian outpost province sandwiched between Poland and Lithuania along the Baltic coast.
The Iskander-M missiles, which have a range of over 500km, are reportedly being transported by ship from the St Petersburg area. It had previously been reported that the Russians might seek to place the Iskander-M missiles in Kaliningrad but not until 2018-19.
If confirmed, the move would be seen by western governments as another sign that Russia is seeking to establish facts on the ground, from eastern Europe to the Middle East, before a new US president takes office in January.
Estonian officials said they were monitoring the ship and its contents. The ship, called the Ambal, was due to dock on Friday; reports of the cargo came from Estonian government sources.


http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-moving-nuclear-capable-missiles-into-kaliningrad-says-estonia/ar-BBx8HTt

[mapuc]

I wish I could give you a link to this 25 minutes interview the Danish news channel TV2 News had with Assad some days ago.

Some major part of this interview

Denmark, England and others are like blind chicken that follows USA in everything without thinking for them self-He said that after the Danish journalist asked him about the "friendly fire" that killed some of his men

He even said, that USA or the military hawks in USA is doing everything they can so the can be direct conflict between USA and Russia

Markus

[Skybird]

Nothing new there, happens number of times each year.
Nuclear-capable Iskander missiles stationed in Kaliningrad - this does not happen every day. Range is sufficient to reach Berlin, and further.

From a strategic POV, that enclave is a NATO nightmare. They can turn the whole air space in the Baltic region and Eastenrn Europe into an aerial access-denial zone, extended into Germany. High time that NATO starts to take this new cold war serious.

---

Meanwhile, since this is about terrorism, German police today raided appartment in Chemnitz and found "highly dangerous" explosives, now described as "multiple times as dangerous as TNT", and apparently so dangeorus and/or insatabile that they did not dare to move it out, evacuated hundreds of appartments instead and then arranged a controlled (and quite huge, I read) detonation that was still felt by civilians several hundred meters away, said a reporter. Syrian flat owner has gone into an emergency-dive. Nation-wide police search running. Religious background highly likely, says the police. Suspect arrived in Germany one year ago. Type of explosives and the whole case hint at a planned attack of "spectacular dimension", says the police. Three suspected complices have been arrested.

[Oberon]

Nuclear-capable Iskander missiles stationed in Kaliningrad - this does not happen every day. Range is sufficient to reach Berlin, and further.

From a strategic POV, that enclave is a NATO nightmare. They can turn the whole air space in the Baltic region and Eastenrn Europe into an aerial access-denial zone, extended into Germany. High time that NATO starts to take this new cold war serious.

Dowly was referring to my comment on the Su-27 entering Finnish airspace.

The Iskanders are upping the ante though, but we've been expecting them for a while now, the AEGIS BMD will be going into Poland around 2018, and the missile radars will be set up around that time too.
Of course, NATO would love to start taking this new Cold War serious, but every time they try they get accused of being too aggressive towards Russia, or of over-reacting...or the forces of the nations that make up NATO get deployed fighting terrorists in the Middle East.
Can't win. :yeah:

[eddie]

Things are heating up along the Ukraine border, artillery and mortar barrages falling on different locations. Whether Russia is actually involved is uncertain, but I'm sure they are using their proxy's to stir up trouble.

http://uaposition.com/latest-news/russian-troops-attack-ukraine-38-times-in-last-day/

[Jimbuna]

Another shining example of Russian compassion for human life.

Russia vetoes U.N. demand for end to bombing of Syria's Aleppo

British U.N. Ambassador Matthew Rycroft told Russian U.N. Ambassador Vitaly Churkin: "Thanks to your actions today, Syrians will continue to lose their lives in Aleppo and beyond to Russian and Syrian bombing. Please stop now."

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-un-idUSKCN1280VJ?il=0

Another step towards a new cold war no doubt.

[Oberon]

Aleppo is boned, no two ways about it, a good comparison would be Grozny during the Chechen wars, in 2006 the UN called Grozny the most destroyed capital on Earth, so that's a good indication of how Aleppo is going to look before long.

Meanwhile the Kuznetsov, which apparently isn't on station in the Med yet, is preparing to sortie presumably from Murmansk:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CuSRlp6XYAE3eKG.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CuSRmwsXYAABlUr.jpg

[Mr Quatro]

The Kuznetsov should stay where she is ... how would it look if she had to be towed back home. :D

[Oberon]

The Kuznetsov should stay where she is ... how would it look if she had to be towed back home. :D

Knowing the Russians they'd hook up two Oscar IIs and tow her from underwater just to maintain the appearance of a functioning carrier. :03:

[Skybird]

Special Forces currently raid an area in Chemnitz where they hould have confronted Jabar Albakr, that Syrian wannabe-bomber. Residents report explosion(s). Police rates him as extrrmely dangerous, even more so now since he has nothing to lose anymore. Police also links him - in a no futher specified way - to the the murderers in Paris and Brussels.

[Oberon]

Cornered beasts are always the most dangerous, go careful polizei. :salute:

[Skybird]

He escaped, it seems. A second flat was stormed and another suspect arrested. Albakr now is wanted with international warrant, so they seem to assume he already may be outside Germany.
Police says they are quite certain that he got trained by IS.

[Oberon]

He escaped, it seems. A second flat was stormed and another suspect arrested. Albakr now is wanted with international warrant, so they seem to assume he already may be outside Germany.
Police says they are quite certain that he got trained by IS.

Probably heading for Turkey, and then into Syria.

[Skybird]

Gotcha - they got him.

The explosves he wanted to use is the same stuff that was used in Paris and Brussel, a chemically quite instabile agent with more power than TNT. Not the easiest stuff to handle, they say.

It seems it were other Syrians whom he asked for help who overwhelmed him, and called the police.

[Catfish]

[...] It seems it were other Syrians whom he asked for help who overwhelmed him, and called the police.
Seems some imigrants are quite reasonable, or even thankful for living in Germany.
Does that put a question mark after your "all muslims are bad" statement.
:hmmm:

All things aside, good they got him!

[Skybird]

Seems some imigrants are quite reasonable, or even thankful for living in Germany.
Does that put a question mark after your "all muslims are bad" statement.
:hmmm:


Impossible that it could - since I never nowhere ever made such a statement. I however insist on brandmarking the content and aim of Islamic ideology as totalitarian and supremacist - and people from such countries being the more a problem for all others the more they comply with this nature of Islam - which implies you may have the chance for less problems with them the less they comply with Islam'S real nature.

[Dowly]

Maybe they ratted him out, so they can themselves get the 72 virgins! :O:

[Schroeder]

It seems it were other Syrians whom he asked for help who overwhelmed him, and called the police.
I had not expected that considering that the Brussels attacker could hide among his people in Molenbeek but it's a welcome surprise.

[Skybird]

Slowly it gets learned that Germany probably escaped an "extremely devastating" terror attack indeed. It gets reported that the bomber had multiple times as much of this highly potent explosive stuff than was initially reported. The attack target seems to have been one of the two big airports in Berlin, so since airport Brandenburg is not in service (still not :LOL :har:), it leaves only Tegel. That could have turned into a huge massacre.

[mapuc]

Slowly it gets learned that Germany probably escaped an "extremely devastating" terror attack indeed. It gets reported that the bomber had multiple times as much of this highly potent explosive stuff than was initially reported. The attack target seems to have been one of the two big airports in Berlin, so since airport Brandenburg is not in service (still not :LOL :har:), it leaves only Tegel. That could have turned into a huge massacre.


A country's military learn by their mistake they do in a war-When it comes to ISIS, they keep on making the same mistake over and over again-Good for us and our intelligence.

Markus

[Jimbuna]

Gotcha - they got him.

The explosves he wanted to use is the same stuff that was used in Paris and Brussel, a chemically quite instabile agent with more power than TNT. Not the easiest stuff to handle, they say.

It seems it were other Syrians whom he asked for help who overwhelmed him, and called the police.

Good to know that's one less threat to a country and its people/infrastructure.

[eddie]

Glad they got him! Hope they bounce him off the walls for a bit. knock some sense into him,lol

[Skybird]

Good to know that's one less threat to a country and its people/infrastructure.
The head of the police union two days ago got quoted by a newspaper that amongst the migrants that came to Germany last year, "several thousand" are potential attackers, IS sleepers and/or prone to quick radicalization by "extremist propaganda" in Germany. Nobody has a solution, politicians do not care.

The Federal Office for Migration issues - BAMF - also confirmed or was revealed to have identified several thousand migrants who entered Germany with forged papers - without any consequences that the law however demands then. They should have been sentd away, either when entering or after having been identified to own forged papers - instead they were allowed to stay in germany. With still forged, non-valid papers. The teeth of the laws have been pulled, intentionally. Nobody cares. Police speakers criticising this, get called back by politicians.

Finally, several tens of tousands of migrants, especially young single males, have disappeared in germany, dropped under the radar. Nobody cares.

We were lucky while we do sleepwalking. And we call this our "strategy". But it is just sleepwalking, and what has saved us so far is not our masterplan, but mere luck. Others could envy us for our luck until here.

[Nippelspanner]

Others could envy us for our luck until here.
Oh that's for sure. But that luck will run out.
There will be blood.

[Schroeder]

Oh that's for sure. But that luck will run out.
There will be blood.
Just a question of time. :88)

[Mr Quatro]

The head of the police union two days ago got quoted by a newspaper that amongst the migrants that came to Germany last year, "several thousand" are potential attackers, IS sleepers and/or prone to quick radicalization by "extremist propaganda" in Germany. Nobody has a solution, politicians do not care.

The Federal Office for Migration issues - BAMF - also confirmed or was revealed to have identified several thousand migrants who entered Germany with forged papers - without any consequences that the law however demands then. They should have been sentd away, either when entering or after having been identified to own forged papers - instead they were allowed to stay in germany. With still forged, non-valid papers. The teeth of the laws have been pulled, intentionally. Nobody cares. Police speakers criticising this, get called back by politicians.

Finally, several tens of tousands of migrants, especially young single males, have disappeared in germany, dropped under the radar. Nobody cares.

We were lucky while we do sleepwalking. And we call this our "strategy". But it is just sleepwalking, and what has saved us so far is not our masterplan, but mere luck. Others could envy us for our luck until here.

The bad guys seem to have the same problems ... they need money:yep:

One way I have noticed is that they sell drugs and use drugs to obtain their weapons and influence and power.

Crack down on drugs and reward the drug dealers for any information that would lead to the arrest of terrorist sleeper cells. :yep:

[Oberon]

Just a question of time. :88)

We may disagree on the solutions to the situation, but I agree with you both here, it is just a matter of time before one gets through. I've been expecting an attack over here for quite a while now, particularly in one of the northern/western cities like Birmingham or Liverpool. We've caught a few, stopped a few (that the public are aware of), but sooner or later one will get through. C'est la guerre.

[Jimbuna]

Another shining example of Russian compassion for human life.


Russia vetoes U.N. demand for end to bombing of Syria's Aleppo

British U.N. Ambassador Matthew Rycroft told Russian U.N. Ambassador Vitaly Churkin: "Thanks to your actions today, Syrians will continue to lose their lives in Aleppo and beyond to Russian and Syrian bombing. Please stop now."



http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-un-idUSKCN1280VJ?il=0

Another step towards a new cold war no doubt.

And now another step closer.

Parliament are currently debating whether the RAF should help a western alliance in setting up a no-fly zone to stop Russian airstrikes in Syria.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-37616636

[Jimbuna]

The French are now making their opposition known.

Russia's President Vladimir Putin has cancelled a planned visit to France amid a row over Syria.

On Monday, Mr Hollande suggested Russia could face war crimes charges over its bombardment of Syria's city of Aleppo.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37616333

[Skybird]

Shooting down Russian planes?

Bombing Russian artillery?

I believe it when it I see it happening. Bad idea, btw. Very bad idea.

Imagine Russia starts bombing American units in Iraq. Anyone believing the US would sit still and not militarily react - in Iraq and beyond? Shoot at Russian planes - and see them shooting back. Then take a time out and imagine how this necessarily must and will all end.

Now all this is a very realistic scenario for an escalating World War Three. I am not willing to wage one just to save one already destroyed city. Costs and gains, you know. Too much of the first, none of the latter.


Crack down on drugs and reward the drug dealers for any information Has not worked well in decades on war on drugs, or has it? Legalise drugs instead. Ruins the criminals' business model. Be cheaper than them, and they must quit then. You also reduce drug related crime that is done to obtain money to buy drugs, if drugs get cheaper and legal. You get people off the streets.

Why does a state have to take it upon itself to tell people which drugs they may consume? Certain drugs - mass-damaging and mass killing people, btw - are highly welcomed if the state has obtained a monopole to tax their consummation. People are to be free. And that means they are to be responsible for themselves and their decisions.

Legalise it. Ruins a whole plenty of bad guy'S way to earn their money for a living. The whole "war on drugs" until today has been a terrible desaster, and has only boosted the prison industry in the US.

[Oberon]

I must admit I fail to see how a No Fly Zone would work, if Putin decides to call NATOs bluff...and he probably will...do we go to war with Russia?


Well, I guess it'll solve many of the worlds problems if we do... :hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

I think the best that can be hoped for (regarding those in favour of some kind of penalty) will be trade sanctions.

[eddie]

I must admit I fail to see how a No Fly Zone would work, if Putin decides to call NATOs bluff...and he probably will...do we go to war with Russia?


Well, I guess it'll solve many of the worlds problems if we do... :hmmm:

What's Russia going to do if they want to hit a Hamas target in Damascus? They've done it before when Iran tried to ship in some new rockets for Hamas,
Israel bombed the warehouse they were stored in, which was in Damascus.

[Alex]

The French are now making their opposition known.

Russia's President Vladimir Putin has cancelled a planned visit to France amid a row over Syria.On Monday, Mr Hollande suggested Russia could face war crimes charges over its bombardment of Syria's city of Aleppo.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37616333
Hollande sold his arse to atlanticism, and never acted on behalf of France at any time. France is Church's elder daughter, so I'd use another vocabulary to speak about that fat pig's behaviour in Moscow. :doh:


Whose nationalism is leading us to WW3 ? :hmm2: (https://youtu.be/RZ4-Nh3If8I)

[mapuc]

Yesterday a Danish News paper had an article about Russia placing Iscander/Iskander(can't find the English word or the military term for this missile) missile in the enclave Kaliningrad

The article or the author of it said it could be a Cuba crisis all over again.

Markus

[eddie]

Who's burning all those cars in Denmark, Markus?

[mapuc]

Who's burning all those cars in Denmark, Markus?

I'm assure it's the same type of people as in Sweden.

Sweden had not so long back the same problems in Stockholm Gothenburg, Malmoe and in some other areas.

I understand that it also happens in Germany. Have not heard about England yet though

Back to those burning cars here in Denmark

Many believes it's some disaffected refugees or migrants who are doing this( I'm one of them).
There may also be insurance cheating(maybe a few per year) or that the new cars have a defect so they spontaneously ignites

Markus

[Skybird]

What's Russia going to do if they want to hit a Hamas target in Damascus? They've done it before when Iran tried to ship in some new rockets for Hamas,
Israel bombed the warehouse they were stored in, which was in Damascus.
That was before the Syrians had S-300. Such systems has been delivered meanwhile, not so long time ago. And that system is a.) a lethal beast, fourth generaton fighters probably are no match for it; and b.) Russian doctrine demands air defences to be set up in several layers, and it is known that amongst others Russia also has deployed SA-22s around its bases, these are short range systems - but again, absolutely lethal. With one or two more different AD systems fitting into the formula I cannot imagine that anything can happen in Russian controlled air space in Syria anymore without the Russians allowing it - or repelling it. Neither France nor Britain nor Israel operate fifth generation combat aircraft and bombers currently. And even these maybe are not untouchable by these new systems.

The question of whethee the Russians would indeed open fire on NATO planes, is hypothetical. More realistic is the question whether any Western political leader in france, Britain or Washington would risk to call them out and send airplanes into a msision to find out, with quite some NATO members probably not supporting this step. The answer is most likely a No.

Lets be realistic. The West has no horses in this race over Syria. If we would rewalyl be about saving civiliuan lives, we would cooperate with Assad and Russia, stop all support to the over one hundred rebel groups formign the socalle drestience, and of which many are relgiozs radicals, and shorten the war by allowing one side the aesy and quick win, which necessarily will also mean destruciton of most of the opposing side. Syria will be no single state as before enaymore, but a fractured entity, probably three or four components. And somebody in the West has to kick the Erdoghanis' lower bottom so that they learn to sit still. And what would we gain if Assad's enemy'S win? Look at Libya.

Really, we have no horses in this race. We never had. We already have damaged ourselves: we created a scenario where now Russia can openly protect Syrian nuclear ambitions by military, direct means. Another of these ingenious, ambitious moves we made but did not really calculate to the end. I hate it when politicians try to think with their hearts.

And finally there is the question of whether or not there are Russians near that ground target you want to bomb in Damascus. And if cou kill Russian troops there, the Russians will hardly agree to just call them collateral damage.

[eddie]

I'm assure it's the same type of people as in Sweden.

Sweden had not so long back the same problems in Stockholm Gothenburg, Malmoe and in some other areas.

I understand that it also happens in Germany. Have not heard about England yet though

Back to those burning cars here in Denmark

Many believes it's some disaffected refugees or migrants who are doing this( I'm one of them).
There may also be insurance cheating(maybe a few per year) or that the new cars have a defect so they spontaneously ignites

Markus

I'm just glad no one has been in those cars when they set them on fire. So far, that is.

[mapuc]

@ Skybird

These S-300 have been known by the West and Israel for years so don't you think they have come up with some type of countermeasure or like ?

Markus

[Skybird]

@ Skybird

These S-300 have been known by the West and Israel for years so don't you think they have come up with some type of countermeasure or like ?

Markus
And what makes you assuming the Russians did not react to countermeasure designs?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/04/13/putin-s-missile-could-make-u-s-attacks-on-iran-nearly-impossible.html


Many U.S. defense officials from the Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps agree that the Russian missile system effectively renders entire regions no-go zones for conventional jets like the F-16 or Navy F/A-18 Hornet. Currently, only high-end stealth aircraft like the $2.2 billion B-2 Spirit—of which the Air Force has exactly 20—and the high-performance F-22 Raptor can safely operate inside an area protected by the S-300 and its many variants. The Pentagon’s $400 billion F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (http://www.thedailybeast.com/content/dailybeast/articles/2015/03/25/stealth-jet-s-slow-half-blind-debut.html) will eventually be able to operate inside those zones, too. But according to multiple sources within the Pentagon and defense industry, no warplane now operating can remain inside those well-defended areas for long.
A senior U.S. Marine Corps aviator said that if Russia delivers the S-300 missile to Iran, it would fundamentally change U.S. war plans. “A complete game changer for all fourth-gen aircraft [like the F-15, F-16 and F/A-18]. That thing is a beast and you don’t want to get near it,” he said.
And these are not even the latest of Russian AD systems. There is the S-400.

Any air force challenging such systems and not being formed by B-2s or F-22s, must expect significant losses. They maybe would achieve their objectives - but not without significant losses. And the Russians boasted already years ago they possessed the means to refuse stealth fighters their protective hiding cloak. I would not so easily wipe that off the table as boasting so easily. In the end, its all about amounts of energy.

There is this strange tendency in the West to always underestimate Russian equiment, saying it may be sturdy, but techcially not sophisticated. I do not share this attitude.

Also, the stuff they have in Syria this time is operated by well-trained Russian specialists, and they do not run reduced export versions of platforms, but their own line-A grade material.

Let Iraq 1992 and 2003 not deceive you. This match now is in a completely different league.

[eddie]

Erdogan running his big mouth again. This time he tells the Iraq Govt that their troops will not leave Iraq, no matter what Baghdad says.

"ANKARA, Turkey — Turkey can't be excluded from a possible operation to recapture the Iraqi city of Mosul, Turkey's president said Tuesday, telling Iraq's leader to "know his place."

"In a speech delivered in Istanbul, Erdogan also said Turkish troops wouldn't withdraw from a base near Mosul, saying the Turkish army wouldn't take orders from Baghdad. Turkey is training anti-IS fighters to help retake Mosul from the extremist group."

"You are not my interlocutor, you are not at my level, you are not my equivalent, you are not of the same quality as me," Erdogan said, addressing Iraqi Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi. "Your screaming and shouting in Iraq is of no importance to us. You should know that we will go our own way."

"Turkey's army hasn't lost enough of its quality to take orders from you," Erdogan said in response to Iraqi calls for the troop's withdrawal. "We would do whatever is necessary as we have done until today."

Man, I wish someone would take that pig out!! Leave his brains spattered on the floor!

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/turkeys-president-tells-iraqi-leader-to-know-his-place/ar-BBxibWm

[Jimbuna]

I doubt the Iraqi military would be any match for that of Turkey but the possible scenario of a NATO member coming into conflict with an 'ally' of the west does intrigue me.

[Skybird]

I doubt the Iraqi military would be any match for that of Turkey but the possible scenario of a NATO member coming into conflict with an 'ally' of the west does intrigue me.
This conflict already is reality.

Its really important, impo, to get a Kurdish state up and running. As a buffer zone that contains Turkey from all its neighbours in the South.

I call Turkey an enemy of the West. What it does under the cover of and in the name of NATO, oversteps the boundary to treason. And it already fights "allies" of the West, by firepower. In Syria. In Iraq. Plus logistical, intel and financial support for such enemies in other countries.

It damages NATO's credibility that Wahsington and others still accept Turkey to be member of NATO. Turkey is a viper within NATO'S living and sleeping room. And nobody cares, shrugs shoulders, and says "Bosporus" as an excuse. I do not buy that Bosporus argument anymore. The threat by Turkey is much greater than the gains of having diplomatic control (more it is not!) over the Bosporus.

Already 10+ years ago I warned bitterly of Erdoghan, and most people just laughed. Today nobody laughs anymkore. Some more years, and I am certain many people will have come to their minds over this issue as well, and then share my reasoning once again. Erdoghan is a highly destabilizing and very dangerous threat factor to keeping the powederkeg that the ME is under any kind of desperate "control". IMO, he really is mentally ill, a narcissist with religious messiah-syndrome and megalomaniac self-perception, in life revealing the personality of a strict, brutal psychopathic personality structure. What he does to Turkey and how he does it, functionally reminds very strongly of the Nazi movement after it got out of the starting block in Germany. Erdoghan poses in similiar fashion like Hitler did. His argumentation is functionally comparable, his sense of mission, the means by which he takes control and widens his powers.

Its only a question of time until even blue-eyed Washington realise that they have lost control of Erdoghan. And I predict that much of what the West wants to prevent in the ME, will come true nevertheless - because of Erdoghan.

[Schroeder]

Gotcha - they got him.

And he escaped again. This time for good. He was just found in his cell. Seems he managed to hang himself.:/\\!!
:/\\!!:/\\!!

http://www.dw.com/en/media-reports-chemnitz-terror-suspect-jaber-albakr-found-hanged-dead-in-cell/a-36028311

[Skybird]

I hope any information he maybe had on his mind, had been extracted before.

And now some painful questions to the guards.

[Schroeder]

I hope any information he maybe had on his mind, had been extracted before.

And now some painful questions to the guards.
In that short time? Forget it.
First the police let's that guy escape and now the personnel of the jail can't prevent him from committing suicide. Is anybody in Saxony's law enforcement actually doing their jobs?:/\\!!:/\\!!

[Oberon]

Two more missiles have been launched from rebel held territory in Yemen at the USS Mason in the Red Sea.

[eddie]

I'd suggest that the Mason should increase its distance form the shore. I 'm sure a drone is on station now, hopefully they get a nice clear picture of who is launching the missiles, don't need to hit the wrong target especially after what the Saudi's did !

[Oberon]

I'd suggest that the Mason should increase its distance form the shore. I 'm sure a drone is on station now, hopefully they get a nice clear picture of who is launching the missiles, don't need to hit the wrong target especially after what the Saudi's did !

I think they're there because missiles got fired at a UAE ship:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a6/HSV-2_Swift_Bow_Damage.jpg

So I guess she's acting as a missile sponge, after all she has SM-2s and RIM-1662s, as well as decoys and countermeasures whereas civilian shipping doesn't. The more that the rebels, or whoever is shooting these missiles, fire then the more likely they are to give away their positions and open themselves up to a drone, missile or naval gun strike.

[eddie]

Well Oberon, that didn't take long. Using Tomahawk cruise missiles, the US Navy attacked 3 coastal radar installations they used to track ships. All 3 were destroyed.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-launches-strikes-in-yemen-after-missiles-aimed-at-american-ships/ar-AAiT7zO

[Oberon]

Well Oberon, that didn't take long. Using Tomahawk cruise missiles, the US Navy attacked 3 coastal radar installations they used to track ships. All 3 were destroyed.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-launches-strikes-in-yemen-after-missiles-aimed-at-american-ships/ar-AAiT7zO

:Kaleun_Thumbs_Up:

[Jimbuna]

I think they're there because missiles got fired at a UAE ship:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a6/HSV-2_Swift_Bow_Damage.jpg

So I guess she's acting as a missile sponge, after all she has SM-2s and RIM-1662s, as well as decoys and countermeasures whereas civilian shipping doesn't. The more that the rebels, or whoever is shooting these missiles, fire then the more likely they are to give away their positions and open themselves up to a drone, missile or naval gun strike.

Well Oberon, that didn't take long. Using Tomahawk cruise missiles, the US Navy attacked 3 coastal radar installations they used to track ships. All 3 were destroyed.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-launches-strikes-in-yemen-after-missiles-aimed-at-american-ships/ar-AAiT7zO

Rgr that :yep:

[Oberon]

Another news headline about the strike (http://www.duffelblog.com/2016/10/sailors-not-navy-seals-finally-get-shoot-****)

[mapuc]

When I some days ago heard of the first attack against the American navy I thought its getting very complicated-Those who attacked USA is supported by Iran who also support Assad and (forgot the name of this terror group) who are fighting in Syria and against USA or those USA and its allied is supporting.

Markus

[eddie]

Another news headline about the strike (http://www.duffelblog.com/2016/10/sailors-not-navy-seals-finally-get-shoot-****)

That's pretty good!:03:

[eddie]

Well, the long awaited battle for Mosul has begun!

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/iraqi-pm-signals-start-of-operations-to-drive-is-from-mosul/ar-AAj1KZQ?li=BBnb7Kz

[August]

Yeah we should be worried about Trump supporters... :hmmm:

Republican headquarters in North Carolina’s Orange County has been firebombed, The Charlotte Observer reports.

Police said on Sunday that a bottle of flammable liquid was thrown through the front window of the office and that the words "Nazi Republicans get out of town or else" were spray painted on a nearby building.

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/North-Carolina-GOP-headquarters-firebombed/2016/10/16/id/753685/?ns_mail_uid=55917891&ns_mail_job=1692182_10162016&s=al&dkt_nbr=zyeh6sdx

[Schroeder]

Yeah we should be worried about Trump supporters... :hmmm:

At this point I'm worried about the supporters of both. How can anyone actually be a supporter of either?:/\\!!

[Nippelspanner]

Yeah we should be worried about Trump supporters... :hmmm:
Are you implying we should not worry about cancer because somewhere AIDS made a mess?
I love your logic and reasoning, it is always so entertaining - unfortunately rarely valuable for serious topics.

[Oberon]

Well, the long awaited battle for Mosul has begun!

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/iraqi-pm-signals-start-of-operations-to-drive-is-from-mosul/ar-AAj1KZQ?li=BBnb7Kz

You can watch live footage here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wcKAD5bUPw

[Nippelspanner]

You can watch live footage here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wcKAD5bUPw
Including side chat with the most despicable things people could say.
Next time, there will be a bet-and-win system.

Isn't the 21st Century great? :-?

[Oberon]

Including side chat with the most despicable things people could say.
Next time, there will be a bet-and-win system.

Isn't the 21st Century great? :-?

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/66/6692eb98e441824dd1705d11e61477bc4d4af38aff099cc016 3054243cd38867.jpg

You soon learn to either not read chat or turn the chat off when you're on youtube.

Just remember though, these people can vote. :wah:

[Nippelspanner]

Just remember though, these people can vote. :wah:That's exactly the only reason why I feel affected by these scummy individuals. Personally, I couldn't care less about any of them, but yes, they can influence the way things are - and that is bone chilling.

[Catfish]

Yeah we should be worried about Trump supporters... :hmmm: [...]

Quoting Sailor Steve:
It's not the relevance of the candidate that matters in cases like this, but the two-faced attitudes of the accusers. it only matters when it's the other guys' candidate that did it. It's dishonest, plain and simple

[Oberon]

Quoting Sailor Steve:

And besides, when you have people saying things like this:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/kentucky-gov-matt-bevin-says-bloodshed-might-be-165058821.html

Is it any wonder that people, of either side, are turning to violence?

[eddie]

You can watch live footage here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wcKAD5bUPw
Are they having a break or something,lol Must be waiting for help, with all the fighting going on around them!:D

[Oberon]

Are they having a break or something,lol Must be waiting for help, with all the fighting going on around them!:D

They say that war is 'long periods of boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror.' :hmmm: :03:

[August]

Are you implying we should not worry about cancer because somewhere AIDS made a mess?
I love your logic and reasoning, it is always so entertaining - unfortunately rarely valuable for serious topics.

Some folks here were just saying the other day that the there might be a violent reaction by the right over the Presidential election, but the reality it that it's actually the left who are the violent ones that we really should be worrying about. Bombings, rioting, attempting to disrupt political events and silence candidates. It's not the Trump people doing those things, but don't let that intrude on that fantasy world you live in.

[August]

Quoting Sailor Steve:

People on this forum love to make unsupported accusations about what the right the right might do but if anyone dares to shine some light on what the other side actually does it's met with stupid comments like that. Show me where Trump supporters have firebombed a building and show me where Trump supporters have bussed in dozens of thugs to disrupt Clinton rallies and then maybe Steves quote will have some validity but it still would not excuse the crimes of the left.

[Nippelspanner]

It's not the Trump people doing those things, but don't let that intrude on that fantasy world you live in.

Trump Supporter Threatened to Beat Up Black Woman — October 2016
A 55-year-old man in Albany, New York, was arrested (http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/10/trump-supporter-arrested-after-threatening-a-black-woman.html) after approaching a 27-year-old black woman outside a grocery store and yelling, “You [racial slur] had your time. Your eight years are up.” He also added, “Trump is going to win and if you don’t like it I’m going to beat your ass.”Man Says, “I Can’t Wait Until Trump Gets Elected So I Can Force Bitches Like You Down on Your Knees” — October 2016
Writer Sara Nović shared a screenshot of a text message from her younger sister, in which she described being pestered by a man in Penn Station until she told him, “I don’t mean to be rude at all, but I’m just not interested.” He reportedly replied, “Wooowww, ****ing bitch! I can’t wait until Trump gets elected so I can force bitches like you down on your knees when you talk like that.”College Student Followed and Assaulted by Trump Supporter — October 2016
Katie Zurbrick, a senior at Portland State University, told KATU (http://katu.com/news/local/report-man-filmed-woman-on-psu-campus-before-asking-about-trump-attacking-her) that a stranger approached her with a video camera and asked her if she wanted to be on “Trump TV.” After she declined, he reportedly began to shout expletives and sexual slurs at her, only to grab her phone, attempt to destroy it, and shove her out of the way until she screamed and he ran off.Muslim Women Attacked by Someone Trying to Rip Their Head Scarves Off — September 2016
Two Muslim women pushing their strollers in Bath Beach, Brooklyn, were attacked (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/bigot-ripping-muslim-women-hijabs-hateful-attack-article-1.2785475) by Emirjeta Xhelili, a 32-year-old woman who allegedly yelled, “Get the **** out of here, get the **** out of America, bitches,” while punching and kicking them. She also tried to rip their head scarves off. Upon investigating her Facebook and Twitter accounts, it was found that she posted messages like, “America is the ark of Noah. Trump’s gonna win.”Nevada: At a campaign rally in Las Vegas, Trump supporters gleefully watched as gun control supporters and Black Lives Matter demonstrators were physically dragged out of his event by security. As one man was dragged away, Trump supporters yelled, “Shoot him! Kick his ass,” and “Light the mother*******er on fire!” A large, middle-aged man shouted, “Sieg heil!” (a Nazi salute). “He’s a Muslim!” another man said. “He’s a Muslim!”And I didn't even search thoroughly, I am absolutely sure there are way more and way severe examples, but gladly, it is always the others who are delusional and living in fantasy worlds, right, August? :yeah:
Now, please don't say "but dem didn burn anything so Dump supporters are no problem!", please just don't.

[Moonlight]

Shouldn't ^this^ be in the 2016 US Presidential thread and not in the The all purpose terrorism thread, or is this British country bumpkin missing something important? :hmmm:

[Catfish]

Shouldn't ^this^ be in the 2016 US Presidential thread and not in the The all purpose terrorism thread, or is this British country bumpkin missing something important? :hmmm:

Maybe in the PC future any rant or ction against either candidate can be classified as terrorism, and all perpetrators shot :03:

@August: S. Steve's statement kicks out against both sides, so i see your point. It is just that all do it.

[Oberon]

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--pNdcq0sN--/ghx790kfy0idxnzwipfh.jpg

[August]

And I didn't even search thoroughly, I am absolutely sure there are way more and way severe examples, but gladly, it is always the others who are delusional and living in fantasy worlds, right, August? :yeah:
Now, please don't say "but dem didn burn anything so Dump supporters are no problem!", please just don't.

You put in a few unsubstantiated anecdotes and then tell me that a firebombing doesn't count. They bus in hundreds of paid protestors to deliberately try to disrupt and silence Trump events and you think these fake accounts you post are the same thing. Sorry but that just wont cut it.

[August]

@August: S. Steve's statement kicks out against both sides, so i see your point. It is just that all do it.

I'm not defending Trump supporters or saying that you can't find an example of someone purporting to be on his side making harsh statements but organized disruption including paying and busing in hundreds of protestors takes things to a whole new level.

[Nippelspanner]

You put in a few unsubstantiated anecdotes and then tell me that a firebombing doesn't count.No, not what I said and not the point. Read it again, comprehend it, try again.

...and you think these fake accounts you post are the same thing. Sorry but that just wont cut it.
Ah, yes, of course these are all fake reports, probably uploaded by Hillary herself via private servers...

You... are fascinating.

[August]

Shouldn't ^this^ be in the 2016 US Presidential thread and not in the The all purpose terrorism thread, or is this British country bumpkin missing something important? :hmmm:

Maybe it's just me but firebombing an office is a bit more extreme than politics as usual. As you can see there is no shortage of people here who would try to excuse it. Unless of course it was a DNC office then they would be going out of their minds.

[August]

No, not what I said and not the point. Read it again, comprehend it, try again.

Oh I understand you and your motivations very well. You are attempting to dismiss an act of terrorism just because it's against people you don't like.

[Nippelspanner]

Oh I understand you and your motivations very well. You are attempting to dismiss an act of terrorism just because it's against people you don't like.
*facepalm*
Yes, that's exactly it. Congratulations, Sherlock.
Just a hint. Not everybody is that shallow and simple minded, you know?

[Oberon]

Maybe it's just me but firebombing an office is a bit more extreme than politics as usual. As you can see there is no shortage of people here who would try to excuse it. Unless of course it was a DNC office then they would be going out of their minds.

Rockstar is the chap who determines whether it's terrorism or not, we should ask him. :yep:

[eddie]

You put in a few unsubstantiated anecdotes and then tell me that a firebombing doesn't count. They bus in hundreds of paid protestors to deliberately try to disrupt and silence Trump events and you think these fake accounts you post are the same thing. Sorry but that just wont cut it.

Local Democratic party started a GoFund Me account to rebuild the Republican Party Headquarters in North Carolina, Those damn liberals:haha:
They have already raised enough money to do that too.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/democrats-raise-dollar13k-to-reopen-firebombed-gop-headquarters/ar-AAj3lYf

[em2nought]

And besides, when you have people saying things like this:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/kentucky-gov-matt-bevin-says-bloodshed-might-be-165058821.html

Is it any wonder that people, of either side, are turning to violence?

When the other side is blatantly stuffing the ballot box. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUDTcxIqqM0

When the media is in the other side's pocket.

When supposed republicans that have been around for a long time being totally ineffective won't support the candidate.

I can see why some might start to think this way, especially since our side is much better armed than the opposition, and hence the reason the liberal side really wants the USA disarmed. :up:

[Takeda Shingen]

If the last defense of freedom is a bunch of old fat guys waving around their AR-15s then freedom is finished.

[Oberon]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cu-kNVTXEAA8cVU.jpg:large


http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/156/852/tumblr_l9h8m0JcLu1qzqmo7o1_400.jpg

[August]

*facepalm*
Yes, that's exactly it. Congratulations, Sherlock.
Just a hint. Not everybody is that shallow and simple minded, you know?

I'm glad that you recognize your personal limitations. You know?

[Nippelspanner]

I'm glad that you recognize your personal limitations. You know?
Which can't be said about everyone, apparently.

[em2nought]

If the last defense of freedom is a bunch of old fat guys waving around their AR-15s then freedom is finished.

Well, the fatties will be the first to go of course, because we can't shoot and scoot so well.

http://revolution.mrdonn.org/concordbridge01_jpg.jpg

[August]

Local Democratic party started a GoFund Me account to rebuild the Republican Party Headquarters in North Carolina, Those damn liberals:haha:
They have already raised enough money to do that too.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/democrats-raise-dollar13k-to-reopen-firebombed-gop-headquarters/ar-AAj3lYf

Somebody has a guilty conscience i'll bet...

[Takeda Shingen]

Well, the fatties will be the first to go of course, because we can't shoot and scoot so well.

http://revolution.mrdonn.org/concordbridge01_jpg.jpg

Interesting use of imagery. The American Revolution was, ostensibly at least, about exclusion from the democratic process. Your fanciful new revolution is all about subverting that very process. Curious.

[eddie]

Somebody has a guilty conscience i'll bet...

You have no clue who did it either, and how much support did the Republicans give in getting it rebuilt?

[August]

Mindless parroting

The Democrats did the same thing to John McCain

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/10/list-debunked-groper-allegations-corrupt-media-donald-trump/

[August]

You have no clue who did it either, and how much support did the Republicans give in getting it rebuilt?

No I don't know who did it. It wouldn't be the first time somebody did something like that for sympathy. The LGBT community does it all the time.
http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/culture/kristine-marsh/2015/08/10/fake-hate-9-false-discrimination-stories-media-ran

But also as far as either of us knows the money from that Gofundme drive was put up by Republicans. Just because the dems started it that doesn't mean they actually contributed any real money to it.

[mapuc]

In todays primetime news program

I learned that beside, Iraqi, Kurdish and American soldiers who's involved in the ongoing operation Fatah-Liberating Mosul, also Danish forces participates too- They are supporting the assault with 4 F-16 and some special troops(was not being told, but I know they are into it too)

Now that I have learned Denmark is taking part of this operation, I wonder how many more of USA's allied is engaging Daesh from air and or ground

Markus

[MaDef]

Rockstar is the chap who determines whether it's terrorism or not, we should ask him. :yep:I'm not rockstar, but it seems to be pretty cut and dried to me. (at least by Merriam-Webster) ;)

the use of violent acts to frighten the people in an area as a way of trying to achieve a political goal

[Oberon]

The Democrats did the same thing to John McCain

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/10/list-debunked-groper-allegations-corrupt-media-donald-trump/

This parrot has a mind, thank you. Just because it's not very good, doesn't mean it's not there. :O:

All I'm saying though is that if your candidate can be taken down this easily, then perhaps you need a better candidate. I mean, one of the biggest problems with McCain and certainly the thing his campaign is most remembered for is his choice of running mate. Romney was just completely out-maneuvered by Obama but even so he played a good field...Trump has broken the camels back. To be fair, this moment was always coming, the moment that the Republican party either needs to split or rethink its position. I'm not saying this from some kind of ivory tower, British politics since Brexit has undergone a similar process, there's Labour which is in the midst of a very hard shift to the far left which has cause the loss of many supporters and a pretty nasty civil war, there's UKIP which is struggling to find a reason to exist post-Brexit, there's the Lib-Dems which still hasn't recovered after losing the student vote after Nick Clegg sold his soul to David Cameron, and so that leaves the Tories as the only functioning party and even they are still pretty rudderless, at any other time it would be considered a crisis but they're looking strong by the sheer fact that they haven't imploded like all the other parties have.
The Republican party has been facing this crisis since Bush Jr, it's the war between the Conservatives (or Neo-Cons) and the Tea Party element. Sure, the Democrats also have their own little split, but there haven't been the figureheads in them to push open those fault-lines and they've got their guy in office, so they're content to give the nod to the Bernie-bros but just paper over the cracks in order to keep their side in power. Their time will come, probably after the Republicans have undergone their crisis and fielded a candidate that makes it to the White House. Depending on global factors, the aftermath of that might be when the Democrats split between the centrists and the left. Pretty much what has happened to the UKs Labour Party following the collapse of New Labour post-Blair.
I said this after Romney lost, the Republicans need to take the next four years to work out who it is that they're supposed to appeal to. Try to lose that Alt-Right support, the sort of people who create the negative image that Trump has got, stop focusing on the negative of everything and get a more positive outlook. Back when Dubya was around, the worst the Republicans got were that they were Machiavellian oil grabbing shills for big business (kind of like what people are accusing Hillary of being), but now we're got Trump who is tarnishing the party with all kinds of groups and people that you really don't want to be associated with.

Not being funny, but this election was a gift on a silver plate for the Republicans, it was Hillary, one of the most hated women in America, and she took down Grandpa Bernie through dirty means, if the Republicans had had a half-decent candidate he could have absolutely shredded them and perhaps started a civil war in the Democrats between the Hillaries and the Bernies which would have knocked the Dems out of the loop for an election cycle at least, but the GOP screwed it up, they screwed it up good and proper and to blame everyone else for it is just missing the point and missing a very valuable lesson which they need to learn if they're going to stand any hope of getting a good candidate forward for the next election.

Now, we'll see how badly things have gotten when the actual election comes through, it could be that Republican voters actually support half the stuff that Trump is accused of, which is concerning from a moral standpoint but a conversation for another time...but honestly, the GOP could do with a good kicking, so that it can turn to the Tea Party faction and say "Right, you've had your fun and it's killed us, now get lost and form your own party." This would take away a portion of the GOP but I don't think it would kill it, and in time it would heal and become electable again, because out of the four that made it to the final stages of the primaries, I think only Kaisch was the one who hadn't been tainted by the extremism within the party.

I think, in general, in the whole in the world today people need to stop drifting off towards the fringes, to the far left and right and come back into the center, because dangerous things happen out in those fringes and dangerous people can be found there. People who say and do stupid things but in doing so enable those things, encourage those things, which brings out the darkest in humanity. And again, no ivory tower, I have the same concern about British politics, and in particular the flaming garbage pile that is UKIP, which seems to have become a cult of personality around Kim Jong-Nige (and that's a nickname he's got within his own party, by the way).


I'm not rockstar, but it seems to be pretty cut and dried to me. (at least by Merriam-Webster) ;)

You'd think so, and I'd be inclined to agree...but I've trodden on these landmines before so I'll defer to others.
Either which way, whoever did it is an idiot, no matter what their political beliefs are.

[Takeda Shingen]

Not being funny, but this election was a gift on a silver plate for the Republicans, it was Hillary, one of the most hated women in America, and she took down Grandpa Bernie through dirty means, if the Republicans had had a half-decent candidate he could have absolutely shredded them and perhaps started a civil war in the Democrats between the Hillaries and the Bernies which would have knocked the Dems out of the loop for an election cycle at least, but the GOP screwed it up, they screwed it up good and proper and to blame everyone else for it is just missing the point and missing a very valuable lesson which they need to learn if they're going to stand any hope of getting a good candidate forward for the next election.

You're correct. Hillary Clinton is the weakest presidential candidate, in terms of voter support, that the Democratic Party has nominated since Walter Mondale. While she is not inept or unqualified for the position she is wildly unpopular due in no small part to her notorious corruption. Her personality also renders her highly unlikable. This election should have been a layup for the opposition party.

Fortunately for the powers that be in the Democratic Party, the Republicans have spent the past eight years courting the lunatic fringe in an effort to stay viable in regional elections. They've empowered these people through a series of astroturfed movements, the so-called Tea Party the most famous among them. The result of that had been, up to this point, the removal of more moderate elements within the Republican Party and their replacement by a far more extreme element. With eight years of funding and organization behind them it is little wonder that this portion of the Republican base, roughly 30% of the registered Republican voters, were able to push through the presidential candidate they wanted.

The candidacy Donald J Trump is the Frankenstein's monster that has finally gotten away from the control of its master. Rather than reform the platform to represent a greater portion of the American people, the party bosses doubled down on extremism. Now the extremists have their candidate, and the Republicans are slowly coming to terms with the painful truth that 30% of a party base is not nearly enough to win a national election, even against a candidate as unpopular as Hillary Clinton.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

<snip>
Now that I have learned Denmark is taking part of this operation, I wonder how many more of USA's allied is engaging Daesh from air and or ground

MarkusOur national broadcaster Yle reported, that there are forces from 60 countires involved in Mosul operation including from all EU and Nordic countries.

Finnish Army has 100 soldiers attached to Kurdish Peshmerga forces. Half of them form training unit while another half is supporting operations against Daesh (including assault towards Mosul) as advisers. Officially they do not participate in combat, but that maybe merely official position for legal reasons.

[Jimbuna]

Shouldn't ^this^ be in the 2016 US Presidential thread and not in the The all purpose terrorism thread, or is this British country bumpkin missing something important? :hmmm:

Agreed, keep the politics in the political threads.

Back on topic:

Russian and Syrian warplanes have suspended air strikes in the Syrian city of Aleppo ahead of a humanitarian pause on Thursday, Russia has said.
Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu said the bombing had been halted early on Tuesday.
Russia had already announced an eight-hour pause between 08:00 (05:00 GMT) and 16:00 on Thursday.
Mr Shoigu urged rebels and civilians in the besieged eastern area of the city to use humanitarian corridors to leave.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-37689063

[August]

Agreed, keep the politics in the political threads.


The way I see it firebombing a political office is an act of terror according to the definition being floated around here.

[Oberon]

The way I see it firebombing a political office is an act of terror according to the definition being floated around here.

I agree, but equally the discussion of the political motives of the attack probably belong in the election thread. I mean, I've been putting news of Russian events in here because I didn't want to start a new thread, but then mapuc started his Russian tensions thread so I can put them in there instead.

It's a tricky one though, I agree. But this was politically motivated domestic terrorism IMHO, and whoever did it should be brought to justice.
Just as an aside, apparently the nearby Dem office in the same area also got broken into and graffiti about 'Death to capitalists' or some such thing was sprayed on the wall. Not exactly a firebomb but perhaps an indication of who did it, a radical Berniebro most likely or someone wanting to pin it on one. We'll hopefully see in time when the law enforcement catches up with them.

[August]

It's a tricky one though, I agree. But this was politically motivated domestic terrorism IMHO, and whoever did it should be brought to justice.
Just as an aside, apparently the nearby Dem office in the same area also got broken into and graffiti about 'Death to capitalists' or some such thing was sprayed on the wall. Not exactly a firebomb but perhaps an indication of who did it, a radical Berniebro most likely or someone wanting to pin it on one. We'll hopefully see in time when the law enforcement catches up with them.

Or it's someone trying to divert suspicion :hmmm: but certainly there could be an "Arlington Road" element at work here I suppose.

[Oberon]

Or it's someone trying to divert suspicion :hmmm: but certainly there could be an "Arlington Road" element at work here I suppose.

It could be, it could be.

*googles Arlington Road* Oooh, looks like an interesting film *bookmarks*

[August]

It could be, it could be.

*googles Arlington Road* Oooh, looks like an interesting film *bookmarks*

I thought the ending sucked but I dare not say any more without spoiling the suck for you. :)

[Sailor Steve]

A long time ago I posted about it in the 'Movie' thread. I didn't think the ending was bad, just unexpected. :sunny:

[Oberon]

Four officers injured, one seriously, during a police raid on a far-right 'Reichsburger' in Bavaria:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germany-police-shooting-four-officers-injured-raid-far-right-reichsbuerger-georgensgmuend-bavaria-a7368946.html

[Schroeder]

Kudos to the police that they could take that clown down without killing him.:salute:

I wish a speedy recovery to the injured.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Wolfgang P is believed to have been alerted to the police’s approach by blue lights and sirens, having a gun and bulletproof vest next to his bedI just don't get this. You are making an early morning raid to house of potentially armed person and you come in with blues and twos? :doh:

[Schroeder]

Darn, one of the officers just died from his injuries. Now they guy is guilty of murder. Let's hope he'll rot in a prison cell for the rest of his worthless life.:down:

I just don't get this. You are making an early morning raid to house of potentially armed person and you come in with blues and twos? :doh: That would indeed be highly unusual. I have a hard time believing they would do that especially since they had planned the thing in advance and weren't forced to act quickly..:hmm2:

[Oberon]

I just don't get this. You are making an early morning raid to house of potentially armed person and you come in with blues and twos? :doh:

Could be a legal thing, like how police always seem to yell "Stop! Police!" when the suspect is far enough away to run off. :dead:

[Oberon]

Darn, one of the officers just died from his injuries. Now they guy is guilty of murder. Let's hope he'll rot in a prison cell for the rest of his worthless life.:down:

Deport him to Syria. :yeah:

[August]

Democrat advocating causing violence at Trump events.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IuJGHuIkzY

Scott Foval, visited the White House during the past 8 year 320 times and the media is silent about it. Don't tell me the fix isn't in...

[Schroeder]

Darn, one of the officers just died from his injuries.

This is getting odder by the minute. Now the police say that the officer hasn't died but is still in critical condition.... Guys really? Is it so difficult to determine whether someone is dead or not? How could that wrong statement get out?:down:

[Oberon]

This is getting odder by the minute. Now the police say that the officer hasn't died but is still in critical condition.... Guys really? Is it so difficult to determine whether someone is dead or not? How could that wrong statement get out?:down:

What on Earth is going on with your police force? :doh:

[Schroeder]

What on Earth is going on with your police force? :doh:
Usually they are pretty good at their jobs but the recent events are rather embarrassing. Anyway I have to give it to them that they were able to get him without pumping him full of lead like I would have expected most other police forces to have done. That is actually a testament of their training and discipline.

[Oberon]

Usually they are pretty good at their jobs but the recent events are rather embarrassing. Anyway I have to give it to them that they were able to get him without pumping him full of lead like I would have expected most other police forces to have done. That is actually a testament of their training and discipline.

This is true, always thought of the Polizei as being up there with the top police forces. :yep:

[Nippelspanner]

Usually they are pretty good at their jobs but the recent events are rather embarrassing. Anyway I have to give it to them that they were able to get him without pumping him full of lead like I would have expected most other police forces to have done. That is actually a testament of their training and discipline.
Yeah I agree, you rarely hear of fatalities when they do their job and you just as rarely hear about mishaps of whatever kind.

I had the luck to witness them train while I was in the army on a range.
They were practicing CQB with army special forces and later enjoyed a good barbecue... while I had to sweat a lot for just some overcooked Gulasch. :shifty:

However, really nice to hear the officer did not die!
When I read he did die earlier today I was quite sad that one of our finest had to die because of one of our worst.Just not fair.Hope everyone recovers fully, physically and mentally.
And let's hope our 'Herr Reichsbürger' will drop the soap once or twice :03:

[Oberon]

And let's hope our 'Herr Reichsbürger' will drop the soap once or twice :03:



Guten Tag....Surprise Arschluss :arrgh!:

[Schroeder]

However, really nice to hear the officer did not die!
And now he did.:-?

I guess they knew that his wounds were so severe that he wouldn't make it and that's how the false statement got released even before he had died.

[Catfish]

That is really bad :shifty:
My condolences to his family and relatives.


"Reichsbuerger", lmao.
Some claim (and maybe this is even true) the German Reich judicially still exists, and we still do not have a real peace treaty.
But to build you worldview and radicalisation on that .. :doh:

[Nippelspanner]

And now he did.:-?
Ah crap. :(

[Jimbuna]

Now that the operation to retake Mosul is well underway, further stories of atrocities by IS against civilians are beginning to emerge.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-37761088

[eddie]

I imagine its going to be pure hell for civilians in Mosul, Jim. Have to be grateful we don't have to endure anything like that, feel so sorry for them.

[Jimbuna]

Rgr that Eddie :yep:

[mapuc]

I agree on that too

Yesterday I heard on the news that ISIS had killed xx-people because they had celebrated their freedom from ISIS-After the Iraqi forces had kicked out ISIS from a town near Mosul, they left and ISIS could return and retake the town without any problems

When I heard this I was sad and mad-What kind of warfare is this ?

Markus

[Jimbuna]

Iraqi special forces are now less than 1.5km from the eastern outskirts of Mosul and are preparing to enter the city held by Islamic State fighters.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-37821602

[eddie]

One step closer Jim:up: But still a long hard fight ahead of them.

[mapuc]

Been thinking and I could be wrong.

I know why the Iraqi government does nothing than using words against the Turkey and its military forces in Iraq.

Turkey is fighting Daesh Which Iraq is fighting too. Turkey is fighting the Kurds which Irag is not exactly fighting but are not happy about their demand of getting some part of iraq.

So why fight Turkey when they do alle the hard job for them(Iraq)

Markus

[Jimbuna]

One step closer Jim:up: But still a long hard fight ahead of them.

Rgr that Eddie....now it gets really intense and potentially very messy.

One of my main concerns is the fact a westerly corridor is being allowed for IS to retreat through, the thinking being that the drones and manned air assets will sort them out....but what of the human shields they (IS) will obviously use during the retreat?

[Jimbuna]

Been thinking and I could be wrong.

I know why the Iraqi government does nothing than using words against the Turkey and its military forces in Iraq.

Turkey is fighting Daesh Which Iraq is fighting too. Turkey is fighting the Kurds which Irag is not exactly fighting but are not happy about their demand of getting some part of iraq.

So why fight Turkey when they do alle the hard job for them(Iraq)

Markus

Iraq are no match for the Turkish military and would be extremely foolish to confront them.

The real dilemma for the west is which side would they support....a NATO member or a close ally in the region on their sovereign territory?

[eddie]

What I read yesterday Jim, was that the regular Iraqi Army units were bogged down 15 to 20 KM west of Mosul fighting against Daesh in some villages in that area. You would think with air support they would be closer, but who knows.

As far as Turkey goes, they said they were in the fight for Mosul to make sure that the Turkmen who live in that area are not slaughtered by the Shia militias that are with the Iraqi forces. They refuse to allow any ethnic cleansing of Sunni's like the Shia have done before. Erdogan is pushing ro bring back the Death Penalty in Turkey again, which the EU has said will make it tough for Turkey to join the EU. His response to the EU was that they basically don't listen to anyone trying to tell Turkey what to do.

I'd be more worried about members of Daesh escaping through Turkish lines, especially the highest members of Daesh.

[Jimbuna]

Iraqi troops are now in the eastern outskirts of Mosul.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-37832819

[eddie]

Look out Germany, Erdogan is picking on you now,lol As if anyone outside of Turkey gives a crap what he thinks!:haha:

He says Germany has become a den of terrorists, because you won't deport a bunch of people he thinks were part of that sham he calls a coup! what are you thinking over there? Erdogbone is going to get mad at you!!!:haha:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/turkeys-erdogan-says-germany-become-haven-terrorists-114818763.html

[Oberon]

Turkey is a joke, it's just a terrible shame for the poor sods who live there...but, equally...there does seem to be some popular support for the guy, and I guess he is the strong man that people seem to go for these days, so what can you do?

I guess click on the German Erdogan song and get it even more views I guess. :yeah:

[Jimbuna]

Look out Germany, Erdogan is picking on you now,lol As if anyone outside of Turkey gives a crap what he thinks!:haha:



Well that's certainly how I think :yep:

[eddie]

The assault to take Raqqa has begun. Kurdish forces are moving first to isolate the city then the attacks to take the city will follow.


http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-backed-forces-launch-assault-on-syrian-is-capital/ar-AAjXvFa?li=BBnbcA1

[Oberon]

Smart operational movement, but it's going to be a tough old slog through the streets. Best of luck to them. :salute:

[Jimbuna]

I doubt this will lead to the imminent demise of IS but simply a case of the buggas rearing their ugly heads elsewhere, unfortunately.

[Onkel Neal]

Ohio State attacked by crazed refugee
http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2016/11/28/ohio-state-issues-shelter-place-order-after-active-shooter-report/7dfbPAUUuup8Q4grP4VttN/story.html

[Rockstar]

interesting that this young man entered the U.S. is afforded a home, financial aid, education and a new way of life. He doesnt get involved with ISIS he gets involved with the religion of Islam and starts running down his neighbhors and hacking them apart with a machete.

Now I know not all muslims are terrorists but you have to admit a damn good majority of terrorists these days do seem to all muslims.

[Oberon]

https://media.giphy.com/media/jwHUzToGV0jss/giphy.gif

Did someone call for the PC Police Gif Terrorist?

No?

Fine, I'll come back later.

https://media.giphy.com/media/z3T9UyR6EgnK0/giphy.gif

[Takeda Shingen]

https://media.giphy.com/media/jwHUzToGV0jss/giphy.gif

Did someone call for the PC Police Gif Terrorist?

No?

Fine, I'll come back later.

https://media.giphy.com/media/z3T9UyR6EgnK0/giphy.gif

I would not have dared to disturb you during the FFXV release!

[Oberon]

I would not have dared to disturb you during the FFXV release!

:haha: Ah, alas, the other half had to cancel her pre-order because it clashed with another popular game which involves enslaving small creatures to battle to the death with her enemies. But...well...Christmas is coming... :03:

[Takeda Shingen]

:haha: Ah, alas, the other half had to cancel her pre-order because it clashed with another popular game which involves enslaving small creatures to battle to the death with her enemies. But...well...Christmas is coming... :03:

Sorry to hear that. I know you're a big fan of the series. :oops:

[HunterICX]

...another popular game which involves enslaving small creatures to battle to the death with her enemies.

Are you talking about Pokemon or your marriage? :D

[Oberon]

Are you talking about Pokemon or your marriage? :D

Yes. :03:

[Mr Quatro]

Russia has talking points too? What if this is just a way to confuse POTUS elect Donald Trump ... who will tweet Putin, "Do you know why we call our fighter jets Hornets"?


MOSCOW, Nov. 30 (UPI) -- Russia is considering using Iran's Hamadan airbase to launch airstrikes on insurgents in Syria if its aircraft carrier, the Admiral Kuznetsov, leaves Syria's coastline on the Mediterranean for a new mission, Russian and Iranian officials said.
"The necessity to use the airfield of the airbase in Hamadan could emerge if Admiral Kuznetsov carries out another operation and [Russia] will not be able to use it for airstrikes against terrorists in Syria

[Oberon]

The necessity to use the airfield of the airbase in Hamadan could emerge if Admiral Kuznetsov carries out another operation and [Russia] will not be able to use it for airstrikes against terrorists in Syria

For 'carries out another operation' read 'has to go back to Murmansk for repairs'.

[Jimbuna]

For 'carries out another operation' read 'has to go back to Murmansk for repairs'.

Precisely :)

[Rockstar]

Whether under its own power or its towed from what I been reading in the news is if it goes anywhere Id bet it will go to the Crimea.

[Oberon]

Whether under its own power or its towed from what I been reading in the news is if it goes anywhere Id bet it will go to the Crimea.

Well, it was built around there. But yes...Ukraine planning to conduct missile tests in Crimean airspace...not the smartest move... :dead: Still, I guess they want to get this war going whilst they still have a sympathetic ear in Washington. :hmmm:

[Mr Quatro]

Whether under its own power or its towed from what I been reading in the news is if it goes anywhere Id bet it will go to the Crimea.

Sell it to India and at least get something for it, but another war is brewing in the region that this carrier may be headed for to be a flag ship warning sign: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2016/12/01/Russia-threatens-retaliation-if-Ukraine-holds-missile-tests/9441480564800/?sn=tn_us

Russia threatens retaliation if Ukraine holds missile tests

Russia considers the placement and testing of anti-aircraft missiles on the Crimean peninsula a violation of Russian airspace and territory because of claims it put on the land two years ago.

[Jimbuna]

"We have will have to respond militarily," said Konstanin Kosachev, Foreign Policy Committee chair in the Russian Parliament's upper house. "Of course this would be the least desirable scenario, and all of us must work to prevent it... But eight years ago the leader of another country that was in conflict with Russia -- I'm referring to Georgia -- decided to test our military. And we all know how that ended. I hope Ukrainian officials remember the lesson from that experience."

Not saying I agree but the Russian position is abundantly clear.

[Mr Quatro]

Not saying I agree but the Russian position is abundantly clear.

It's almost like you can see the chess move in advance. :yep:

[Rockstar]

Since this is the 'all purpose terrorism thread' and since terrorists do not have have rights to conduct operations against sovereign nations. I think we have clearly deviated from the topic of terrorism to issues of sovereign nations. May I suggest we form a new topic to continue this conversation, call it 'The all purpose jus ad bellum' (right to war).

[Skybird]

Wait until Fillon in france maybe becomes elected president. He is extrenely russophile and doe snot hide his smypathy for the diea of forming a strong alliance beteen the EU states, and Moscow. While Germany's SPD also is quite russophile, like the established poltical left always has been, Merkel has become more and more criticla and sistanced to Putin - something that Putin does not forgive her.

This could lead to a widening split in the EU, between France and the eU on the other side, and Germany and the eAtern European state son the other side. additonal to the trenchlines and widening rifts over the Euro crisis, spending discipline, and so forth.

If Merkel wins the fourth chancellory next year - and that is likely currently - she will not be the perceived strongest European leader anymore, the last defender of the West now that Trumpo club of millinaires and billionaires prepares to take over in Washington and does not hide its desinterest for Europe. In fact it has become extremely lonely around Merkel, both within her party thatr she has deeply wounded with her self-sustaining personnel decisions of the past ten years (she has eroded the CDU systematically of any potent or/and competent personnel to eliminate all threats by rivals to her chancellory), and with her mass migraiton policy. The latter is the reason why Merkel also isolated in Europe. Its Twilight of the Merkel, so to speak.

Additional, there is Turkey. Britain KJohnso9n provoked the eU recently with reocmmendign to let Turkey in. Germany and France are dibided over how to deal with reunificaiton oy Cyprus. The problem there is that if Cyprus and Turkey reunite, the strong Turkish side on Cyprus liekly becomes Erdoghan'S placeholde rin brussel - and can veto in his names EU deicisons and infleunce EU policy forming. That is a scenario that has written "disaster" all over it. Many in Brussel imo have not even realised this dramatic implication so far.

To add even more fuel into the fire, the EU commission heold negotaitons with turkey that are kept hidden fromt he oublic over nevertheless allowing Visa excemption for Turks wanting to move into the EU.

Did I say Merkeldämmerung? Ther eis a very important Italian referendum which could give the Euro crisis a massive boost for collapsing. EU-dämmerung maybe is the better term to use here. Collapse of the EU imo has become a very realistic possibility.

And it could now happen much quicker than ever before was thought.

With regard to the Euro, things look even more dramatic. If the Italians say No to Renzi this weekend, I do not dare anymore to calculate any possible future scenarios for the Euro beyond the immediate couple of months. Longer termed strategies for investing alreadey now imo have reached almost a 50:50 parity with being proven wrong, which means again that you have maximum uncertainty here, thus investing turns into gambling. Stay away, or get in: throw a coin to decide. Thanks to cheap money, the Fed, the ECB.

Everything can happen now. That means we have a state of maximum uncertainty. This instability is very unlikely to end within the next years, I fear it will even increase. And it still is not understood by many of the decision makers, as illustrated by their willingness to increase the burdens and problems of the EU and Europe and the Euro, for ideological reasons.

Now at the end of this year, I feel much more worried than I already was at the beginning of this year. And where it was just an intellectual worrying in past years, I must admit that the threats have become so many by now that I start to feel an emotional fallout from that. I think I am not alone with this. The popular mood is turning in Europe, it becomes darker and darker. Decisively. And that is not because of the EU's problems, as these reality-disconnected fools try to tell us - its just a natural, reasonable reaction to right these arrogant retards' political decisions.

Putin's calculation work well until here. Europe and America suffer growing mutual alienation, and the EU paralyses and erodes itself, destroys itself from within, rots from within. The spirit of discord gets fed and boosted right from within the EU's key personnel, by always overestimating itself, overestimating the means and potnetials and possibilities of the EU, and underestimating the people'S growing disagreement with this megalomania.

And all this together opens the way for a Russian dominant role in Europe.

[Oberon]

Well, I guess Europe was never going to control itself in the end. So it's either Washington or Moscow that we'll bow down to.

[Skybird]

Since this is the 'all purpose terrorism thread' and since terrorists do not have have rights to conduct operations against sovereign nations. I think we have clearly deviated from the topic of terrorism to issues of sovereign nations. May I suggest we form a new topic to continue this conversation, call it 'The all purpose jus ad bellum'.
In times where supporting terrorism (and fighting over the legitimation of claiming something terrorism or not) has become part of nations' political agendas, the difference between terrorism and poltics becomes hazy, and so does this thread. It just reflects realites. Putin and the likes like him, do not care for these differentiations. Thats why they are successful with doing what - and how - they are doing. In case of many countries like Russia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, it makes no sense to differentiate between nation's policies, terrorism, and even religion. They combine all that, even turn it into one.

So the way the thread is going, does not look that misled at all to me.

[Skybird]

Well, I guess Europe was never going to control itself in the end. So it's either Washington or Moscow that we'll bow down to.
Or Islam as third player.

[Oberon]

Or Islam as third player.

Probably, who knows. Russia and Washington might just bomb it out of existence and us along with it.