The all purpose terrorism thread featuring plenty of allah akbar

[Jimbuna]

Looks like trouble is brewing between Turkey and Russia. The Turks shot down a Russian Su-24, which they said has crossed over into their airspace.Russia says it can prove it was still over Syria. They have found one of the crewmen and are looking for the other.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russian-military-helicopters-search-for-pilots-of-downed-jet-turkeys-dogan-news-agency/ar-BBnnnBR

There is so much traffic in those skies these days it was only a matter of time.

[Dmitry Markov]

Turkish resorts may say bye bye to our money from now on, I suppose :hmmm:

[CaptainRamius]

Turkish resorts may say bye bye to our money from now on, I suppose :hmmm:

I'd love to go to a Turkish resort :hmmm:
Just not right now :D

[Betonov]

I'll go to a Turkish resort as soon as they vote Erdogan and his cronies out.
After that I'd love to visit Istanbul.


Meanwhile on the interwebz, Anonymous bring out the big guns
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/apps/news/a18315/anonymous-is-rick-rolling-isis-on-twitter/

[Oberon]

Hostage situation reported at French town of Roubaix near Belgian border.

EDIT: Seems to be an armed robbery gone wrong rather than terrorism based.

[eddie]

Another terrorist bombing, this time in Tunisia. Daesh has claimed responsibility. 12 dead so far in a bombing of a bus.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/tunisia-to-declare-state-of-emergency-after-tunis-bus-bombing-ministry/ar-BBnoH5Z

[Nippelspanner]

http://i.4cdn.org/pol/1448397512630.png

[eddie]

AQ takes on Daesh in the Golan Heights. Suicide bomber wipes out Daesh Commander!:haha:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/11/24/severe-blow-al-qaeda-suicide-bomber-takes-out-leadership-key-isis-brigade/

[Oberon]

Pic

Wow, Daesh have been looking at North Korean propaganda again, haven't they? :hmmm:

[Nippelspanner]

Wow, Daesh have been looking at North Korean propaganda again, haven't they? :hmmm:
And somehow I can already see Donald Dumb quoting this article for and during his campaign... God I'd love to witness that. :D

[mapuc]

And somehow I can already see Donald Dumb quoting this article for and during his campaign... God I'd love to witness that. :D

And the other 70-80 % of the world population, who has access to Internet.

Markus

[Oberon]

And somehow I can already see Donald Dumb quoting this article for and during his campaign... God I'd love to witness that. :D

Him and Carson as well probably. :dead:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34903577

[Nippelspanner]

And the other 70-80 % of the world population, who has access to Internet.

Markus
70-80% quote this article for Dumbs campaign? :hmmm:

[mapuc]

70-80% quote this article for Dumbs campaign? :hmmm:

No-Some person will read this(the picture and the writing) put it on his or her FB-wall. They will get many likes and comment, many will share this and the story start rolling.

Markus

[Nippelspanner]

No-Some person will read this(the picture and the writing) put it on his or her FB-wall. They will get many likes and comment, many will share this and the story start rolling.

Markus
Good. :D

[Betonov]

It seems I have posted a link I found on this page in this thread :oops:

[Dowly]

Twice. :O:

[August]

Good. :D

Why is that good?

[Nippelspanner]

Why is that good?
Because if I can't fight people's stupidity and paranoia, at least I want it to entertain me. Selfish, I know.

[mapuc]

A speculation about a picture posted by Oberon in another thread

The pictures showed a train with many tanks and Oberon wrote

"Turkish tanks continuing to be sent to the Syrian border."

That made me speculate

Are Turkey planning on invade some miles into Syria, to protect the Turkish majority living there ?

Markus

[Oberon]

A speculation about a picture posted by Oberon in another thread

The pictures showed a train with many tanks and Oberon wrote

"Turkish tanks continuing to be sent to the Syrian border."

That made me speculate

Are Turkey planning on invade some miles into Syria, to protect the Turkish majority living there ?

Markus

Or they might take a page out of Russias book and 'lose' the tanks over the border into the hands of the Turkmen forces, although without decent anti-air support going with them they'll just be more fodder for the Frogfoots.

[Schroeder]

Looks like Germany will be joining the fight against Daesh now. Six Recce Tornados will be on their way soon. officially just for reconnaissance but those things can also drop bombs.


http://www.timesofisrael.com/germany-to-send-tornado-reconnaissance-jets-to-fight-is/

[Nippelspanner]

Looks like Germany will be joining the fight against Daesh now. Six Recce Tornados will be on their way soon. officially just for reconnaissance but those things can also drop bombs.


http://www.timesofisrael.com/germany-to-send-tornado-reconnaissance-jets-to-fight-is/
Duh.
Gutmenschen inbound.
#InB4'whycan'twejusttalkwiththem!?

I like it. Go Recce! :D

[Schroeder]

Duh.
Gutmenschen inbound.
#InB4'whycan'twejusttalkwiththem!?

I like it. Go Recce! :D
I'm still waiting for someone of Die Linke (the left) to make a sad face and say that we've just declared war on the Syrian civil population just as they did when the anti piracy thing was passed and one claimed that we had declared war on the Somali civil population....:rotfl2:
How can these freaks get so many votes???:doh:

[Nippelspanner]

I'm still waiting for someone of Die Linke (the left) to make a sad face and say that we've just declared war on the Syrian civil population just as they did when the anti piracy thing was passed and one claimed that we had declared war on the Somali civil population....:rotfl2:
How can these freaks get so many votes???:doh:
I don't know man.
While I stand way more left than right on the political compass myself, I can only cringe when I listen to these idiots. You delivered a perfect example.
They seem so disconnected from reality sometimes, it is actually scary that they influence this country... but that goes for all of the parties if you think about it. Be it Merkel's gang, what is left of the social-democrats, the green folks or the lefties... :dead:

[Schroeder]

And....the left have said they want to sue against bringing Tornados to Syria.:woot:

I hate those morons.:dead:

[Oberon]

And....the left have said they want to sue against bringing Tornados to Syria.:woot:

I hate those morons.:dead:

You hate everyone. :O:

[Cybermat47]

And....the left have said they want to sue against bringing Tornados to Syria.:woot:


FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF....

[Oberon]

I would like the jury to note that I am aware of events in Colorado, but for the sake of sanity of certain members of this board I am refraining from making a comment on it. Just in case someone decides to mention that I've not made a note of it.

Ende

[Nippelspanner]

And....the left have said they want to sue against bringing Tornados to Syria.:woot:
:/\\!!

[Betonov]

I would like the jury to note that I am aware of events in Colorado, but for the sake of sanity of certain members of this board I am refraining from making a comment on it. Just in case someone decides to mention that I've not made a note of it.

Ende

The incident where people who's religion, that is not islam, is against abortions and they choose to make a political statement and instill fear for acheiving a certain goal, which is the definition of terrorism, but it wasn't terrorism becasue the religion of the perpetraitors was not islam.
That incident ??

[u crank]

I would like the jury to note that I am aware of events in Colorado, but for the sake of sanity of certain members of this board I am refraining from making a comment on it. Just in case someone decides to mention that I've not made a note of it.

Ende

The incident where people who's religion, that is not islam, is against abortions and they choose to make a political statement and instill fear for acheiving a certain goal, which is the definition of terrorism, but it wasn't terrorism becasue the religion of the perpetraitors was not islam.
That incident ??


This is domestic terrorism. Don't you know the difference? Why's everybody whispering?

[Jimbuna]

I think it's called 'making a statement'.

[u crank]

I think it's called 'making a statement'.

:yep:

[Oberon]

Back to more desert-like climes, the Iraqi army is preparing for a major offensive on Ramadi.
This is a big one, it was a major embarrassment for them to lose it back in May, so getting it back will be a much needed morale boost for the Iraqi armed forces, and if the Syrians can complete their operations in Aleppo before the year is out then 2016 will start with Daesh very much on the back foot.

[ikalugin]

I think that Germany is going into this whole anti ISIS thing now, though 1200 troops is not a large commitment.

[Schroeder]

I think that Germany is going into this whole anti ISIS thing now, though 1200 troops is not a large commitment.
By German standards it is a large commitment. :dead:

[Nippelspanner]

By German standards it is a large commitment. :dead:
This. :oops:

[mapuc]

If I was Daesh, I would do anything to get Turkey and Israel directly involved in the civil war in Syria, if I should loose ground to the Syrian army and to the Iraqi army.

Markus

[eddie]

Looks like we should let Iraq fight Daesh on their own. No need to send them our money, equipment or anyone to help train them. Since the shia will attack any special forces we send over there, I say the heck with them. Let them fight their own war.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/iraqi-shiite-militias-pledge-to-fight-us-forces-if-deployed/ar-AAfTNvM

[ikalugin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SREX7ol1R0&feature=youtu.be

MoD briefing.

[Jimbuna]

Parliament (UK) are voting this evening on whether to send extra air assets to bomb Daesh in Syria.

[Oberon]

I'd be happier if we had a firmer game plan rather than relying on these magical 70,000 'moderate' fighters to run the show while we bomb from above.

[Oberon]

"My Precious Turkmen!"

http://i.imgur.com/itRyznZ.jpg

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34979249

[Oberon]

I am also aware of todays ongoing incident.

[eddie]

I am also aware of todays ongoing incident.

This a stinking joke to you Oberon?

[Schroeder]

This a stinking joke to you Oberon?
Nope, it's the reaction to some people here claiming that terror strikes are not terror strikes if they are carried out by non Muslims and should therefore not be in a terrorism thread, or something like that.

[Oberon]

This a stinking joke to you Oberon?

Nope, it's the reaction to some people here claiming that terror strikes are not terror strikes if they are carried out by non Muslims and should therefore not be in a terrorism thread, or something like that.

Pretty much, the last time some idiot with a gun shot up a church full of black people I called it terrorism, and then had to spend the next six pages defending my decision to do so. This thread was started with the 'all purpose' in order that all terrorist incidents would be placed in it, I then had to defend my decision to do this for about three pages since people were under the impression that if it wasn't done by a Muslim then it's not terrorism. Therefore, I have been acknowledging that I am aware that something has occurred, just in case someone decides to attack me on the fact that I'm not reporting on non-Muslim terrorist based incidents despite calling this a 'All purpose terrorism thread' but I am not making any comment beyond that because that will lead to people attacking me on trying to say that the event in San Bernadino is terrorism.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. :yeah:

[Rockstar]

Nope, it's the reaction to some people here claiming that terror strikes are not terror strikes if they are carried out by non Muslims and should therefore not be in a terrorism thread, or something like that.


Yes, but as I brought to everyones attention before, the U.S. already has lawfully defined what an act of terrorism is and certain criteria must be met for anyone to be called a terrorist. If someone wants to make up their own definition to suit their own agenda, go for it. It doesnt really matter to me one bit because their definition has nothing to do with reality.

[August]

Well call it what you want but there were at least three attackers involved so this is no crazed gunman scenario. I suppose that workplace violence is still a possible motive but so far it doesn't sound like it to me. Terrorism has definitely not been ruled out yet.

The anti gun media is currently in full court press though.

[nikimcbee]

Well call it what you want but there were at least three attackers involved so this is no crazed gunman scenario. I suppose that workplace violence is still a possible motive but so far it doesn't sound like it to me. Terrorism has definitely not been ruled out yet.

The anti gun media is currently in full court press though.

Can't waste a good tragedy. I look at this as job security for the media.:shifty:

[Aktungbby]

Pretty much, the last time some idiot with a gun shot up a church full of black people I called it terrorism, and then had to spend the next six pages defending my decision to do so. This thread was started with the 'all purpose' in order that all terrorist incidents would be placed in it, I then had to defend my decision to do this for about three pages since people were under the impression that if it wasn't done by a Muslim then it's not terrorism. Therefore, I have been acknowledging that I am aware that something has occurred, just in case someone decides to attack me on the fact that I'm not reporting on non-Muslim terrorist based incidents despite calling this a 'All purpose terrorism thread' but I am not making any comment beyond that because that will lead to people attacking me on trying to say that the event in San Bernadino is terrorism.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. :yeah:It follows then from pure logic: that you have already written the six pages of defense..feel free to call this terrorism and then simply quote yourself in the prewritten defense!:yeah: NO IMHO: THIS IS MASS MURDER AND THAT IS TERRORISM!

[Rockstar]

No, this is terrorism as defined by 'Definitions of Terrorism in the U.S. Code.'

18 U.S.C. § 2331 defines "international terrorism" and "domestic terrorism" for purposes of Chapter 113B of the Code, entitled "Terrorism”:

"International terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:

Involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
Appear to be intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
Occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S., or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to intimidate or coerce, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum.*
"Domestic terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:

Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and
Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.
18 U.S.C. § 2332b defines the term "federal crime of terrorism" as an offense that:

Is calculated to influence or affect the conduct of government by intimidation or coercion, or to retaliate against government conduct; and
Is a violation of one of several listed statutes, including § 930(c) (relating to killing or attempted killing during an attack on a federal facility with a dangerous weapon); and § 1114 (relating to killing or attempted killing of officers and employees of the U.S.).
* FISA defines "international terrorism" in a nearly identical way, replacing "primarily" outside the U.S. with "totally" outside the U.S. 50 U.S.C. § 1801(c).

Anything else is just, well, from an emotionally unstable dream world.

[August]

No, this is terrorism as defined by 'Definitions of Terrorism in the U.S. Code.'

Yadda yadda yadda


Anything else is just, well, from an emotionally unstable dream world.

Dude, US Code is not the worlds official definition of anything. The Germans and the British not being subject to it are therefore entitled to have their own official definitions that are no less valid than ours.

[Aktungbby]

Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and
Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.

Precisely & close enough: This act thus qualifies.(i) Civilians were certainly coerced;(ii) San Bernadino, a government, is responding to intimidation of it's employees; the employees of the assaulted party were department employees (their conduct affected) and I've no doubt there will be(iii) measures taken within the territorial jurisdiction of the US to further tighten security...but that's been ongoing since Oklahoma City.

[eddie]

They have identified the 2 dead shooters as Syed Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik. They don't know if this Syed was Tashfeens girlfriend or wife. As long as those 2 are dead, who cares if they were married or not! No word on the guy who is in custody.

[Oberon]

Well, the names are going to make a few people jump to the big T, but the Beeb has said that:

Police said they had "no information on motivation," but Farook had earlier left the work event after an angry incident. He returned with Malik, both heavily armed, to carry out the massacre.

So the motive is unclear, but the effect is pretty devastating.

Of course, the question is how much emphasis should be put on the motive? Should we focus more on the motive than the act? Is workplace revenge or dispute any less an act than Islamic terrorism?
Some things to think about while we wait for news on the motive.

[Schroeder]

No, this is terrorism as defined by 'Definitions of Terrorism in the U.S. Code.'

Anything else is just, well, from an emotionally unstable dream world.
And this is domestic terrorism as defined by the Patriot Act:

SEC. 802. DEFINITION OF DOMESTIC TERRORISM.
(a) DOMESTIC
TERRORISM
DEFINED
.
—
Section 2331 of title 18,
United States Code, is amended
—
(1) in paragraph (1)(B)(iii), by striking
by assassination
or kidnapping
and inserting
by mass destruction, assassina-
tion, or kidnapping

(2) in paragraph (3), by striking
and
(3) in paragraph (4), by striking the period at the end
and inserting
and
(4) by adding at the end the following:
(5) the term
domestic terrorism
means activities that

(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are
a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or
of any State;
(B) appear to be intended

(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;

(ii) to influence the policy of a government by
intimidation or coercion; or

(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by
mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and

(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction
of the United States.

(b) CONFORMING
AMENDMENT
.
Section 3077(1) of title 18,
United States Code, is amended to read as follows:

(1)

act of terrorism

means an act of domestic or inter-
national terrorism as defined in section 2331;
.Sorry for the bad format but I had to take that from a PDF http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-107publ56/pdf/PLAW-107publ56.pdf
It can be found on page 106.

[Oberon]

And this is domestic terrorism as defined by the Patriot Act:
Sorry for the bad format but I had to take that from a PDF http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-107publ56/pdf/PLAW-107publ56.pdf
It can be found on page 106.

I think the sticking point is whether the i, ii, iii of B are 'and' or 'or', because so far as we know, this attack was not intended to influence or affect the policies of the US government, however it was certainly intended by its very nature to intimidate a civilian population.

[ikalugin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5dBklU78T8
Total threat of terrorism, comparing threat of terrorism to threat of nazis, ect ect.

[Oberon]

The Great Patriotic War II :hmmm:

[ikalugin]

Most of the adress is on the internal matters. The Erdogan bash was for the warm up, so people do not fall asleep (and still - some did).

[Onkel Neal]

Well, the names are going to make a few people jump to the big T,
.

Well, you sure were the first to post about this in the "all purpose terrorism" thread (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2363143&postcount=295). :smug:

They have identified the 2 dead shooters as Syed Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik. They don't know if this Syed was Tashfeens girlfriend or wife. As long as those 2 are dead, who cares if they were married or not! No word on the guy who is in custody.
Yeah, turns out it was terrorism, they got it right this time.

[Rockstar]

Dude, US Code is not the worlds official definition of anything. The Germans and the British not being subject to it are therefore entitled to have their own official definitions that are no less valid than ours.


Dude, not once did Oberon when he started the thread about the church shooting which happened in the U.S. consider the lawful definition of terrorism. And I doubt he considered it when he initially commented on the recent incident in the U.S. But even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awile, appears he was right when he insinuated an act of terrorism happened in San Bernardino a few posts earlier.

[eddie]

Found this interesting-

"Investigators Thursday were trying to learn why the couple left behind their baby daughter and went on the rampage — the nation's deadliest mass shooting since the Newtown, Connecticut, school tragedy three years ago that left 26 children and adults dead"

"Farook was born in the U.S. to a Pakistani family and had been a San Bernardino County employee for five years, according to authorities. San Bernardino Police Chief Jarrod Burguan said he had no information on Malik's background. Relatives said Farook had traveled to Saudi Arabia to meet his wife."

Seems Farook's attitude changed after he got back from Saudi Arabia?

http://news.yahoo.com/14-dead-17-wounded-california-081816288.html#

[Jimbuna]

From the BBC news site just over an hour ago...

No motive has been established, but the FBI is considering both workplace violence and terrorism, according to David Bowdich from the bureau's Los Angeles office.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34991855

[Rockstar]

certainly it was a couple of true belivers of islam but the act of terrorism as defined by U.S.C. may have not been met. we shall see.

[Aktungbby]

I think the sticking point is whether the i, ii, iii of B are 'and' or 'or', because so far as we know, this attack was not intended to influence or affect the policies of the US government, however it was certainly intended by its very nature to intimidate a civilian population.
Well in addition to the body armor, BDUs, excessive ammo/weapons, there were explosive devices however crudely built; preconceived intent to make a large impact with that much planning involving an accomplice; an alleged trip back to Saudi Arabia all tend to point to sudden radicalization awaiting an opportunity ...I just hope the obviously devoted Ms Farouk doesn't object to hubby's 72 virgins....

[eddie]

Makes you wonder if she was a radical already when he married her, and that she and others turned him into one?

[Onkel Neal]

certainly it was a couple of true belivers of islam but the act of terrorism as defined by U.S.C. may have not been met. we shall see.

Well, if these weren't terrorists, then that means they must have been moderate muslims...yipes. :dead:

[Rockstar]

I'll say this, I like France's response to what happened when the same thing happened over there. Seems to me nobody thought twice to bomb the snot out of those camel jockeys. Whereas we're sitting on our arses debating along political ideology and or whether it was a case of work place violence or terrorism.

I dont want 'the new norm' I want satisfaction, I want to put an end to it. Do what we in the 40's if they cant live in peace with thier neighbor then drop leaflets warning them to run and turn that sandlot into a molten ball of glass.

Yes that means I will have to be like them for a few minutes until its over. Afterwards I can go back to living in peace.

[Aktungbby]

I'll say this, I like France's response to what happened when the same thing happened over there. Seems to me nobody thought twice to bomb the snot out of those camel jockeys. Whereas we're sitting on our arses debating along political ideology and or whether it was a case of work place violence or terrorism.

I dont want 'the new norm' I want satisfaction, I want to put an end to it. Do what we in the 40's if they cant live in peace with thier neighbor then drop leaflets warning them to run and turn that sandlot into a molten ball of glass.
I think calling some one a Camel jockey is disrespectful!!:O: http://www.gluckman.com/Camel2.jpg and it's not a 'molten ball'; it's trinitite, A uniquely American product; and we need to re-invent it again...:up:https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/71/Trinitite-detail2.jpg/300px-Trinitite-detail2.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Trinitite-detail2.jpg)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinitite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinitite)

[yubba]

So, this the clock makers work place violence thread,,,... I see some still can't say radical islam.

[Aktungbby]

So, this the clock makers work place violence thread,,,... I see some still can't say radical islam.

point to sudden radicalization awaiting Oh I think I just bracketed that target sufficiently...:shucks: :yep: :hmph:

[mapuc]

I'm not afraid to say radical Islam, but was those who did this, radical in their belief ?

Markus

[Skybird]

14 dead, a dozen pipe bombs found, several thousand rounds of ammo found, Islamic background. If this is not IDying them as Islamic terrorists, then I don't know what could.

If not now, they would have gone live later.

[Skybird]

I'm not afraid to say radical Islam, but was those who did this, radical in their belief ?

Markus

Can a believer of a given radical ideology be not be a believer of that ideology when believing that radical ideology? :06: :88) Either he believes in it, then he necessarily is a radical, since it is a radical ideology, or he questions that need for radical content in it - by that illustrating that he already does no longer believe in it.

Either you are wet, or you are not. There is no dry way to be wet. Better consider this before jumping into the water.

[yubba]

14 dead, a dozen pipe bombs found, several thousand rounds of ammo found, Islamic background. If this is not IDying them as Islamic terrorists, then I don't know what could.

If not now, they would have gone live later.

Just some up standing Citizens,, exercising their first amendment rights

[u crank]

Can a believer of a given radical ideology be not be a believer of that ideology when believing that radical ideology? :06: :88) Either he believes in it, then he necessarily is a radical, since it is a radical ideology, or he questions that need for radical content in it - by that illustrating that he already does no longer believe in it.

Either you are wet, or you are not. There is no dry way to be wet. Better consider this before jumping into the water.

There are other possibilities. Maybe he is just a thug. A killer, a gangster. A sick person looking for a way to carry out his nightmare. He doesn't believe. He doesn't have to believe. Maybe he just needs an excuse. Any excuse will do.

And he doesn't care if he's wet or dry.

[Skybird]

"Possibilities" there are as many as there are minds on Earth multipli8ed by the stars in the sky.

Its about how likely they are. Thats why I do not really take into account the "possibility" that pigs indeed could fly.

But maybe I just lack fantasy, and am too sober-minded.

[u crank]

But maybe I just lack fantasy, and am too sober-minded.

Are you saying that it's not a possibility? Or are you saying you don't want it to be a possibility?

[mapuc]

Should we not let the FBI do their job and see what conclusion they come to ?

It's not the first time this has happened. It has happened even here in Denmark and Sweden, where a male person has, after been thrown out from a party, returned with some type of weapons and attacked those who was at the party and manage to kill and/or wound people.

Markus

[August]

Should we not let the FBI do their job and see what conclusion they come to ?

It's not the first time this has happened. It has happened even here in Denmark and Sweden, where a male person has, after been thrown out from a party, returned with some type of weapons and attacked those who was at the party and manage to kill and/or wound people.

Markus

But how many times did his wife return with him to help? Not just instigating but a full participant in both the crime and the gunfight later during their attempted escape. I agree with you about letting the FBI do their job before making any judgements.

[nikimcbee]

I gotta admit, it's kinda fun to watch the bamster's admin avoid using the"T" word.

It's work place violence...
It's road rage...
It's a customer service problem...

Who cares, what difference does it make?
:yeah:
Can I get a wut! wut! for president Comacho!

You realize, President Comacho can't call it terrorism, because that means he'd have to call Putin to come and take care of it. It would be kinda awkward for Russian warplanes to be bombing terror camps in Cali.

[vienna]

I live in Los Angeles, which is adjacent to San Bernardino, and the major news networks and local stations are all headquartered out of LA, so we have been getting 24/7 news on the incident since it happened, in real time. This includes live news conferences and updates held by the local, state and federal officials. A few of the details of the incident seem to add up to a possible "hybrid" situation unfolding:

1. There is no doubt the couple were involved in some sort of terrorist activities and may have been the nexus of a greater plot;

2. The amount of munitions found at the suspected home of the couple indicate a much larger plot was in play (I say suspected home since the authorities, as recently as less than an hour ago, have been unable to confirm the couple actually lived in the home, in spite of their names being on the rental agreement);

3. Prior to the shootings, neighbors had observed a sizable number of ME males coming and going to and from the home;

4. The authorities went directly to the home following a tip from a co-worker who had observed the male suspect behaving strangely at the target facility and called the authorities out of concern;

5. Due to the tip, the authorities actually arrived at the home before the couple and, when the couple saw the authorities on scene, they fled prompting the chase and shootout;

6. A large number of electronic devices were found at the home: PCs, laptops, cellphones, etc., all apparently fully functional and and holding their current data in memories;

Given the above this is my supposition of what it all means: The couple were, if not the instigators, active members of a larger plot, one that may not have included an attack on the Resource Center as part of the full plot. According to local reports, the male suspect was known to be a rather hot-headed; it is possible he may have had personal grudges against his employers and co-workers. Something, words or events, may have triggered his rage and he went back to the home, armed himself and his wife, and returned to Center and carried out the massacre, not as part of a plot, by as a personal action. After the attack, he must have realized he had made a huge tactical error as related to a larger plot and tried to hurry home to destroy whatever evidence he had left behind at the home. Fortunately, the authorities got there first and, seeing the police presence at the home, fled, only to be cornered and killed in the shootout. The very fact that so much evidence was left behind at the home tells us the Center attack was not the target of the terror plot. The SOP of organized terror cells is to destroy and dispose of all evidence, physical and electronic, that would give authorities clues as to who they worked for, who may have been involved in a plot and the locations of those individuals. The couple did not do this simple, fundamental, Terror 101 action. I think the male went off half-cocked on a personal vendetta and, in the process, completely compromised the larger plot. I do believe the FBI, Homeland, any any other concerned agencies are goin to have a field day with the data they will collect from the devices left behind. It is entirely possible the co-plotters will be found because one of their own allowed his hot-headed pride to get the better of him. So, basically, what you have is a hybrid: it was an act of terror, it was not the intended act of terror...


<O>

[August]

What happened to the third shooter reported at the scene? Last night they had somebody in custody but today I couldn't find any mention of it.

[eddie]

Haven't heard anything more about him either August!

[nikimcbee]

Yeah, hopefully they got some good info from the house. They need to break all this stuff up, before it gets worse.

The info about the neighbor's observations, man that's a tough call. I had neighbor's about 9 years ago that were dealing in stolen goods. Beat up, out of state, vans in front of their house. It's easy to make the call after the fact. Paging captain hindsight...

https://lablouisianaboy.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/captain-hindsight-courtesy-of-comedy-central-south-park.jpg

[eddie]

The guy that was detained by Police has been released, and is not a suspect in this shooting spree

About the third person who was detained

A man was seen running from the gun battle on East San Bernardino Avenue (http://www.latimes.com/la-me-g-san-bernardino-shooting-20151202-htmlstory.html) on Wednesday and was detained. Police later determined that the man was not a suspect.



http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-san-bernardino-shooting-live-updates-htmlstory.html

[August]

Ah thanks So the eye witness reports of three attackers was wrong too?

[nikimcbee]

Ah thanks So the eye witness reports of three attackers was wrong too?

Having just finished a book about Pearl Harbor, I don't put a lot of faith into eye witness reports.

[eddie]

Ah thanks So the eye witness reports of three attackers was wrong too?

More then likely.

[Jimbuna]

It looks like the pair left a six-month-old baby with the grandmother beforehand.

[mapuc]

Hope some can provide me with confirmations about what I'm about to write

A friend had posted a video showing Russian Bomber plane bombing A Daesh what looks like a refinery and some cistern

And with words these has been untouched until now.

That made me confused-Have our own politicians let Daesh have these oil refinery all these time

USA/NATO etc have been bombing Daesh for a long time before Russia entered the party and targets like those are or should be what I would call top priority targets.

Markus

[Betonov]

This is a good comic about the problem with Islam, but it's long and contains a few F-words so I'll put it in a spoiler bracket for those with bad bandwith.

http://i.imgur.com/xwzdPpV.jpg

[Skybird]

At least the female had sworn allegiance to IS, German media quote San Bernadino police speaker. Add this to "14 dead", "12 pipe bombs", "5000 rounds stored", and "Islamic mindset".

I add the single pieces together, and I don't care for the oh so clever hair-splitting by some people here. Call the drama, call the two murderers what you want - its two Muslim terrorists we talk of now, because that is what their mindset obviously has been, and if they had not gone off now, they would have later: the writing is crystal-clear on the wall.

And who knows if maybe people must feel lucky that they went off by beign triggered by some job event. if thy had started their coup in an even more prepared fashion, by the time and place of their choice, the local residents maybe would need to bury many more corpses now. Paris has shown what a very small number of automatic weapons in the few hands of the determined can do. There is the reason why these weapons are called the worst weapon of mass destruction ever in human history.

[eddie]

Hope some can provide me with confirmations about what I'm about to write

A friend had posted a video showing Russian Bomber plane bombing A Daesh what looks like a refinery and some cistern

And with words these has been untouched until now.

That made me confused-Have our own politicians let Daesh have these oil refinery all these time

USA/NATO etc have been bombing Daesh for a long time before Russia entered the party and targets like those are or should be what I would call top priority targets.

Markus

Yes Markus, Russian and Coalition aircraft have been bombing oil refineries in Syria. To cut off the ability of Daesh to sell the oil on the black market.

[mapuc]

Yes Markus, Russian and Coalition aircraft have been bombing oil refineries in Syria. To cut off the ability of Daesh to sell the oil on the black market.

Thank you, but you missed some part of my question or I may have misspelled it.

Was Russia the first to bomb these targets ? If yes, why wasn't they bombed by USA/NATO and other countries ?

Markus

[eddie]

The Coalition started bombing them a while ago. Russia wasn't the first to do it.

[eddie]

Unbelievable!!! The goofy landlord of the shooters home, let reporters inside and they went crazy in there! Jeez, I wonder if the crime scene has been contaminated now!?!:doh:

http://news.yahoo.com/reporters-inexplicably-stampede-san-bernardino-shooter-s-home-182218908.html#

[vienna]

I was watching the live news conference by the local police, the FBI and other alphabet agencies on TV about 3 hours ago and the FBI Director in charge of this region and the current investigation addressed the very subject of the landlord opening up the condo to the press. He said the various agencies had completed their sweeps and had turned over control of the condo to the owner (the couple had been renting the unit and did not own it). The Director said the FBI was required to do so by law. He noted that after returning control to the owner, the FBI and other law enforcement agencies have no say in what happens to the property. If you saw the news footage of the inside of the condo, there was very openly placed on a table copies of the search warrants and a full and complete listing of all items removed from the scene. When the press questioned why those documents were left at the scene, the Director said the law also required the agencies to leave copies of those documents at the scene...

If you saw the footage of the condo and its remaining contents, there was something rather odd about the scene; there were items one would think would have been tagged and bagged for evaluation, items such as at least one printer, a couple of PC keyboards and mice, and a surprisingly large number of items one would think might yield fingerprints, DNA, or other trace evidence. It was almost as if the items were left behind on purpose, although what that purpose might be is beyond my ken. This whole case is rife with some very odd and anomalous circumstances and activities. Even the Director, at the press conference in San Bernardino, noted many aspects of the couple, their actions, and the related evidence has been baffling, running contrary to what has come to be expected in cases of either workplace violence or terrorist attacks. There is something rather hinky about the whole case and it will be interesting to see what develops in the future. What I hope doesn't happen is a slide into an attitude of "Well, they're dead, so what difference does it make?. There are to many unanswered questions and possible leads to be followed to allow the investigation of this crime to fall into a posture of indifference...


<O>

[Onkel Neal]

"Typical Housewife"
http://s1.ibtimes.com/sites/www.ibtimes.com/files/styles/v2_article_large/public/2015/12/04/amalik22.jpg



Farook was remembered as reserved by co-workers, who said he had grown his beard out in recent months – often a sign among Muslims of heightened religious devotion. He also had gotten into several heated arguments with a co-worker, Nicholas Thalasinos, about Islam. Thalasinos reportedly questioned whether Farook’s faith was truly a “religion of peace.” He was one of the 14 killed in Wednesday’s attack.

I guess Farook showed him.

[Stealhead]

That's why I avoid conversations about religion,sports or politics at work or when I encounter people. I just nod and agree with what ever they say.

While I was in the Air Force let me tell you I heard some interesting(crazy) "conversations" (mostly me just nodding in agreement while the other blabbed). I never had any issues so it must have worked. I did report once a guy that said some interestign(conserning) stuff about Nazis I guess they sundowned him cause he just vanished from the unit one day.
EDIT: Sundowned means kicked out of the military rapidly

[nikimcbee]

That's why I avoid conversations about religion,sports or politics at work or when I encounter people. I just nod and agree with what ever they say.

While I was in the Air Force let me tell you I heard some interesting(crazy) "conversations" (mostly me just nodding in agreement while the other blabbed). I never had any issues so it must have worked. I did report once a guy that said some interestign(conserning) stuff about Nazis I guess they sundowned him cause he just vanished from the unit one day.
EDIT: Sundowned means kicked out of the military rapidly

Me too, I stay the hell away from anything religious or political at work. You're just looking for trouble. It's almost always that third party, that has no part of your conversation, over hears it and reports you to HR because they didn't like it. I've worked with people who wore their religion on their sleeves. Really smurfing annoying. One place I work, there were two people who didn't like each others faith, so they were constantly trying to convert each other.:doh: People can be so petty about beliefs, you don't believe their way....they won't even talk to you.:dead:

[Dmitry Markov]

My condolenses to all who suffered during shooting in CA.

[Jimbuna]

It would now appear that those who speculated it may be terrorism related were correct.

[Rockstar]

Heated arguement if Islam was a religion of peace, whats the argument? Of course its a religion of peace. Its just that there can be no peace until all have submitted to it.

And dont give me any crap about he was radicalized. There is no such thing in Islam. You either believe fully in its morally henious doctrine like the perpetrators of this crime did, or you don't.

"They were radicalized" is used to minimize the responisibilty of a terrorist act. Someone else made the person a "terrorist" against that persons will. Some here are very fond of the word and use it often for just that reason.

Too bad.

Nobody radicalized them nobody made them do it. That religion and doctrine called lead them and they made the conscience decision follow it to the letter.

LEADERSHIP

1. the position or function of a leader, a person who guides or directs a group:
He managed to maintain his leadership of the party despite heavy opposition.
Synonyms: administration, management, directorship, control, governorship, stewardship, hegemony.
2. ability to lead:
As early as sixth grade she displayed remarkable leadership potential.
Synonyms: authoritativeness, influence, command, effectiveness; sway, clout.
3. an act or instance of leading; guidance; direction:
They prospered under his strong leadership.

[Nippelspanner]

Heated arguement if Islam was a religion of peace, whats the argument? Of course its a religion of peace. Its just that there can be no peace until all have submitted to it.

And dont give me any crap about he was radicalized. There is no such thing in Islam. You either believe fully in its morally henious doctrine like the perpetrators of this crime did, or you don't.

"They were radicalized" is used to minimize the responisibilty of a terrorist act. Someone else made the person a "terrorist" against that persons will. Some here are very fond of the word and use it often for just that reason.
Pretty much how I see it.

[eddie]

It would now appear that those who speculated it may be terrorism related were correct.

Looks that way Jim.

[u crank]

Heated arguement if Islam was a religion of peace, whats the argument? Of course its a religion of peace. Its just that there can be no peace until all have submitted to it.

Is this one of those times when you are just kidding?

And dont give me any crap about he was radicalized. There is no such thing in Islam. You either believe fully in its morally henious doctrine like the perpetrators of this crime did, or you don't.

If you have any kind of evidence to back this up I'd like to hear it. And don't bother quoting from an ancient book. There are lots of ancient books that say lots of things. Not everybody believes them. You should be able to differentiate between a religious person and a religious extremist. If you can't you will have some problems.

Nobody radicalized them nobody made them do it.

Unless this is just your personal opinion, prove it.

[Schroeder]

Pretty much how I see it.
I do not often agree with Rockstar but in this case I would tend to see it that way too...

[Rockstar]

If it is as so many proclaim the religion of peace. Why then, after they had travelled to the cradle of Islam itself didnt they come back and proclaim peace?

[mapuc]

Wauw I must have met some "false" Muslims during my life until now.

Two working colleges-not at the same job though, one of them loved pork tenderloin he had that one time per month, the other, sad and had a after-work beer together with us.

And where I lived before I Sometimes met my Muslim neighbors in the laundry room while we stood and talked about football he stood and put clothes together also his wife's underwear

I could continue, as said by some there ain't no such thing as moderate Muslim, if that's true, then those mentioned above must be false Muslims

Markus

[Onkel Neal]

Wauw I must have met some "false" Muslims during my life until now.

Two working colleges-not at the same job though, one of them loved pork tenderloin he had that one time per month, the other, sad and had a after-work beer together with us.

And where I lived before I Sometimes met my Muslim neighbors in the laundry room while we stood and talked about football he stood and put clothes together also his wife's underwear

I could continue, as said by some there ain't no such thing as moderate Muslim, if that's true, then those mentioned above must be false Muslims

Markus

Markus, sure there are millions of Muslims who do not agree with the insanity and murderous ideology that ISIS and Al Qaeda espouse. They suffer from the extremists more than anyone.


For myself, I did not speculate until the FBI released their names.

More news, http://www.reuters.com/article/us-california-shooting-idUSKBN0TO0BD20151205

Islamic State said on Saturday that the married couple who killed 14 people in a mass shooting in California which the U.S. authorities are investigating as an act of terrorism were its followers.

The militant group made the statement in an online radio broadcast three days after U.S.-born Syed Rizwan Farook, 28, and his wife Tashfeen Malik, 29, from Pakistan, attacked a holiday party for civil servants in San Bernardino, about 60 miles (100 km) east of Los Angeles.

The pair were killed two hours later in a shootout with police.

Officials with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, which is leading the probe into the shooting, said Malik and her husband appeared to have been inspired by foreign militant groups but there was no sign they had worked with any of them or that Islamic State even knew who they were.

"It is entirely possible that these two attackers were radicalized to commit this act of terror," U.S. President Barack Obama said in a radio address on Saturday. "If so, it would underscore a threat we've been focused on for years, the danger of people succumbing to violent extremist ideologies."



Yeah. I guess it's possible...

[Nippelspanner]

I do not often agree with Rockstar but in this case I would tend to see it that way too...
Same. :D

Wauw I must have met some "false" Muslims during my life until now.
Exactly.

[eddie]

Looks like the next place Daesh has moved to is Libya. Not very far from the heart of Europe.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/libyas-raqqa-isis-sirte-stronghold-next-target-coalition-air-strikes-1531903

[Betonov]

Ugh, I can't believe i'm saying this, Rockstar has a point.

But we shouldn't call the non radical muslims false muslims just because they have the brain to resist brainwashing by imams with an agenda of their own in the same way we don't call false christians those that don't shoot up abortion clinics.
Like I said on another thread, the un-holliest thing in christianity is the Bible* and every single christian I know is a false christian becasue he/she doesn't stone his/hers children. Koran can't be far behind. Holly books were written to control populations, not a transcript from a fax line to god.

[u crank]

Ugh, I can't believe i'm saying this, Rockstar has a point.

Which one?

[Betonov]

Which one?

The one that radicalised muslims are true followers of the religion.
To which I added that the same can be said for christians.
And since true christians are actually those that are ''false'' christians (not radical), the same can be true for the muslims.

[Onkel Neal]

Ugh, I can't believe i'm saying this, Rockstar has a point.

But we shouldn't call the non radical muslims false muslims just because they have the brain to resist brainwashing by imams with an agenda of their own in the same way we don't call false christians those that don't shoot up abortion clinics.
.

I agree with you. No matter what parts of the Koran may be interpreted in ways that could suggest violence and intolerance, not all, even most Muslims act on it. Just like the Bible.

"Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them," Allah instructs the Prophet Muhammad (Quran, 9:5). He continues: "Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites! ... Hell shall be their home, an evil fate.


That may be the popular notion of jihad, says Waleed El-Ansary, but it's the wrong one. El-Ansary, who teaches Islamic studies at the University of South Carolina, says the Quran explicitly condemns religious aggression and the killing of civilians. And it makes the distinction between jihad — legal warfare with the proper rules of engagement — and irjaf, or terrorism.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124494788

[Oberon]

It's a fair point, one only has to look at the Old Testament, boy did God not kid around in those days. :doh:
I must confess ignorance to the teachings of Sikh and Hindu, likewise to the part of Buddhism beyond that which is populised in the west.

But the thing is, we're not at war with Islam, because it's a war that cannot be won. There are some similarities with Imperial Japan, in particular Japan in the early Shówa period. Yes, we fought Japan, but we did not fight the spirit of Japan, the heart of Japan, the Emperor to be precise. In fact, in order to prevent bloodshed we made peace with the Emperor and the 'Reverse course' meant that while a lot of the Bushido code was dismantled, Japan suffered a much lighter touch than Germany, and the results of that can be seen today if one makes a comparison in attitudes regarding the war in either country.

To declare a war on Islam, on some 2 billion people, is suicide, so you must cut with a scalpel, not a broadsword, and cut the cancers out of Islam surgically. Just as you would aim to do the same with any religion, because people who would use a religion to further their own agenda of hate are people who would use anything to do such a thing. Heck, Stalin embraced the Orthadox church briefly during the 'Great Patriotic War' in order to help encourage fighting against the Germans in 'The Sacred War'.

I think, honestly, people who commit violence because of religion, would commit violence for any given ideology, quite why religion always seems to attract them though, I can't say. :hmmm: Perhaps the whole afterlife thing which gives freedom from consequences in the mortal world so long as you do the right things gives greater encouragement? :hmmm:

[mapuc]

Ugh, I can't believe i'm saying this, Rockstar has a point.

But we shouldn't call the non radical muslims false muslims just because they have the brain to resist brainwashing by imams with an agenda of their own in the same way we don't call false christians those that don't shoot up abortion clinics.
Like I said on another thread, the un-holliest thing in christianity is the Bible* and every single christian I know is a false christian becasue he/she doesn't stone his/hers children. Koran can't be far behind. Holly books were written to control populations, not a transcript from a fax line to god.

Why I use the word "false Muslim" was not to talk down to these who have the brain to resist brainwashing.

I could have used another word instead. While writing I did not know what other word I should use.

Markus

[Betonov]

Why I use the word "false Muslim" was not to talk down to these who have the brain to resist brainwashing.

I could have used another word instead. While writing I did not know what other word I should use.

Markus

I didn't feel like you were talking down to normal muslims.
I understood it more of a sarcasm against those that believe that non-radical muslim are false.

[mapuc]

I didn't feel like you were talking down to normal muslims.
I understood it more of a sarcasm against those that believe that non-radical muslim are false.

Then you got it right-thank you.

Markus

[Nippelspanner]

...so you must cut with a scalpel, not a broadsword, and cut the cancers out of Islam surgically.
Hard to do when more and more western countries set course towards a future where criticizing someone's religion (Islam or whatever) falls under "hate speech" and therefore effectively kills freedom of speech, the maybe most important thing we (in the western world) have, cause it can be considered the foundation for everything else.

I read a line yesterday that Canada may pass a bill that will be a solid first step to silence freedom of speech (http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/08/27/canadian-hate-speech-proposal-threatens-free-speech/).

Same with all the "I'm offended!!! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pTbL7GYUuA)" crap nowadays.

Tl;dr: I really don't like where all of this is going.

[u crank]

I read a line yesterday that Canada may pass a bill that will be a solid first step to silence freedom of speech (http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/08/27/canadian-hate-speech-proposal-threatens-free-speech/).


Not Canada. Quebec. Big difference.

[mapuc]

When I read Oberon latest reply where he mentioned the Old Testament made me remember a part of an article I posted earlier in this thread-about a German-Egyptian Muslim who said the Koran was divided into a violent part and peaceful part.

Our own bible is almost the same the Old Testament is the violent part, while the New Testament is a lot more peaceful.

I guess that goes for every religious book in the world.

Markus

[Nippelspanner]

Not Canada. Quebec. Big difference.
My bad - but my point still stands. It is one dangerous step into a very dark direction. Maybe I'm over-sensitive when it comes to freedom of speech...then again, can one be these days?

Our own bible is almost the same the Old Testament is the violent part, while the New Testament is a lot more peaceful.
I'm offended!!!

[u crank]

My bad - but my point still stands. It is one dangerous step into a very dark direction. Maybe I'm over-sensitive when it comes to freedom of speech...then again, can one be these days?


The funny thing about this bill is that it could be used against Muslims who preach any kind of hate from their mosques.

Section 3: ... Any person who is aware of hate speech or speech inciting violence being engaged in or disseminated can report it to the Commission.

[mapuc]

The funny thing about this bill is that it could be used against Muslims who preach any kind of hate from their mosques.

In Denmark we have the 266b bill(law) and now and then it is revealed who imam in mosque talks hate speech and every Muslim should kill Jews etc

So far only a very few Imam or Muslim in Denmark or lesser than that have been accused of breaking this law.

Markus

[mapuc]

Would have told you this story before, but had forgot it, now that I have it fresh in my mind i use this thread to this story that confused me. I have though decided to believe the woman.

OK start of the story, its from Facebook

In a group a member had made a thread about Muslim and I wrote that not every Muslim is radical evil.

Another member replies and asked me how much knowledge I had about Islam-Told him not much, only from working colleges and neighbors.
Then he wrote Markus I have worked for an American oil company in Saudi Arabia in the 70's and I tell you there ain't no moderate Muslim.

Made me wonder, could he be right- I will never accuse a person lying and he could be true-have been working in Saudi Arabia.

Now the part where I got confused

Some month later I got a new friend and later she wrote about the time when she lived with her Saudi Arabian husband in Saudi Arabia and how good, friendly and nice the people in Saudi Arabia was.

I choice to believe the woman

Markus

[Skybird]

When I read Oberon latest reply where he mentioned the Old Testament made me remember a part of an article I posted earlier in this thread-about a German-Egyptian Muslim who said the Koran was divided into a violent part and peaceful part.

Our own bible is almost the same the Old Testament is the violent part, while the New Testament is a lot more peaceful.

I guess that goes for every religious book in the world.

Markus

Not really. Some suras are from an earlier part of Muhammad'S life when he was at Mekka, and some from a later part, when he was more focussed on Medina and later years after his time there. These Suras sometime get referred to as stemming from the Mekkanese and Medinese era. However, the Quran is not sorted in this chronological way, but mixes Mekkanese and Medinese verses wildely by having sorted the Suras by their length instead. Thats why you have a wild mix of Kitsch and egoism, pretended friendliness and barbaric aggressiveness, philantrophy and violence and brutality in it. If you sort the suras in the chronological order, you read a biograpohy of a man who turned from relatively "moderate" to more and more brutal and violent and racist. Its then the biography of a man whom - as we would say today - radicalised himself over the time of his life, more and more. Maybe that is why they rearranged the order of the Suras, to hide this unwelcomed news a bit better. Muslims usually fade out the unwanted parts, opportunistically basing on the needs of a situation they are in, and by that cherry-pick what helps them to defend their wishes and causes on grounds of the Quran. Can be the carrot, can be the whip. But its always self-victimization being used to morally blackmail those standing in their way, obstructing the realization of their demands and desires. Both cowardly and underhanded that is, if you ask me. But it is clever, and highly effective. The problem with the mixing of Suras is the so-called abrogation principle, meaning that the major schools of Islam already in the 9th or 10th century agreed to decide between contradicting statements of thre Quran by giving authority to that staement that stems from a later part of Muhammad, the younger quote, therefore. Its with a dead perosn having left behind severla last wills - the lawyer dealing with it usually will (and must) decide that the document that was written last will be the one taken into account, the earlier ones will be ignored. Since Muhammad turned more and more violent and brutal the older he got, it means that the more brutal statements of the Quran are getting interpretation sovereignty over the more moderate parts from Muhammad's earlier life. That is that those many Western idiots wanting to sweet-talk about Islam's inherent violence by differing between Islam and Islamism, declaring all good as Islam and outsourcing all its many evils to Islamism, do not not understand. Such a differentiation does not exist, and never has existed beyond just a propaganda tool to press opponents of Islam into the moral defensive. This too works marvellously well. Allah indeed is a great deceiver, you see.

[mapuc]

Not really. Some suras are from an earlier part of Muhammad'S life when he was at Mekka, and some from a later part, when he was more focussed on Medina and later years after his time there. These Suras sometime get referred to as stemming from the Mekkanese and Medinese era. However, the Quran is not sorted in this chronological way, but mixes Mekkanese and Medinese verses wildely by having sorted the Suras by their length instead. Thats why you have a wild mix of Kitsch and egoism, pretended friendliness and barbaric aggressiveness, philantrophy and violence and brutality in it. If you sort the suras in the chronological order, you read a biograpohy of a man who turned from relatively "moderate" to more and more brutal and violent and racist. Its then the biography of a man whom - as we would say today - radicalised himself over the time of his life, more and more. Maybe that is why they rearranged the order of the Suras, to hide this unwelcomed news a bit better. Muslims usually fade out the unwanted parts, opportunistically basing on the needs of a situation they are in, and by that cherry-pick what helps them to defend their wishes and causes on grounds of the Quran. Can be the carrot, can be the whip. But its always self-victimization being used to morally blackmail those standing in their way, obstructing the realization of their demands and desires. Both cowardly and underhanded that is, if you ask me. But it is clever, and highly effective. The problem with the mixing of Suras is the so-called abrogation principle, meaning that the major schools of Islam already in the 9th or 10th century agreed to decide between contradicting statements of thre Quran by giving authority to that staement that stems from a later part of Muhammad, the younger quote, therefore. Its with a dead perosn having left behind severla last wills - the lawyer dealing with it usually will (and must) decide that the document that was written last will be the one taken into account, the earlier ones will be ignored. Since Muhammad turned more and more violent and brutal the older he got, it means that the more brutal statements of the Quran are getting interpretation sovereignty over the more moderate parts from Muhammad's earlier life. That is that those many Western idiots wanting to sweet-talk about Islam's inherent violence by differing between Islam and Islamism, declaring all good as Islam and outsourcing all its many evils to Islamism, do not not understand. Such a differentiation does not exist, and never has existed beyond just a propaganda tool to press opponents of Islam into the moral defensive. This too works marvellously well. Allah indeed is a great deceiver, you see.


I can see I forgot one important word-this person was an Expert on Islam not only a Muslim.

Markus

[Oberon]

Tl;dr: I really don't like where all of this is going.

Aye, road to hell and all that. Trouble is you've got the people who overreact on both sides, with those who want to ban free speech and those who want to use that same free speech to encourage other people to kill other people or at the very least make them so hateful and scared of these people that they see the only option is to kill them.


In other news, it seems that we've just had our own attack, of sorts, a stabbing on the tube which is being treated as 'terrorism' by the police:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35018789

[Schroeder]

It's a fair point, one only has to look at the Old Testament, boy did God not kid around in those days. :doh:

I still think god was a drug addict. During the old testament he had an LSD induced horror trip with blood, gore, catastrophes and all the good stuff.
During the new testament he was high on weed and became a hippie preaching peace and love just to take LSD again when Mohammad was around going back to blood and gore. I guess he overdosed though as noone has ever heard from him again since.:dead:

[Rockstar]

oh oh religion.

some might not think much of the so called old testement. But it did pretty much hit the nail right smack on the head about the line of Ishmael.

"And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him; ..."

[Aktungbby]

I still think god was a drug addict. During the old testament he had an LSD induced horror trip with blood, gore, catastrophes and all the good stuff.
During the new testament he was high on weed and became a hippie preaching peace and love just to take LSD again when Mohammad was around going back to blood and gore. I guess he overdosed though as noone has ever heard from him again since.:dead:
Indeed, the landlord is out-to-lunch with a serious case of the 'munchies':huh:
...and we are 'in his image':O: Any universal ma'at has long since turned to worldly götterdämmerung! :woot:

[u crank]

I still think god was a drug addict. During the old testament he had an LSD induced horror trip with blood, gore, catastrophes and all the good stuff.
During the new testament he was high on weed and became a hippie preaching peace and love just to take LSD again when Mohammad was around going back to blood and gore. I guess he overdosed though as noone has ever heard from him again since.:dead:

:har:

Sounds made up. :O:

[Skybird]

I can see I forgot one important word-this person was an Expert on Islam not only a Muslim.

Markus
So what? I'm an "expert" too. :)

German Egyptian, you said. By chance - Hamed Abdel Samadh?

[August]

Ahh, the the idea that because God won't wipe humanities collective butts for us every time we crap ourselves he therefore can't exist. Que up the internet meme's and mocking posts.

[Nippelspanner]

Ahh, the the idea that because God won't wipe humanities collective butts for us every time we crap ourselves he therefore can't exist.
Nah, it's more the fact that - so far - there was no proof whatsoever that something like a God exists.
Que up the internet meme's and mocking posts.
As you wish!

http://i.imgur.com/7B316jB.jpg

http://wp.production.patheos.com/blogs/excommunications/files/2014/11/hitch03.jpg

One more just for you and because it is so good:
http://cdn.meme.am/instances/400x/61632154.jpg

:salute:

[Sailor Steve]

Okay, the thread is about terrorism. I understand that a lot of today's news on that subject is tied to certain religious beliefs. That does not mean we get to turn it into a discussion on the existence of God, or anything like that. Not that what I'm seeing now is in any way a "discussion".

Please end it here.

[Oberon]

#YouAintNoMuslimBruv (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35020427)

[Nippelspanner]

My apology...

[Aktungbby]

Okay, the thread is about terrorism. I understand that a lot of today's news on that subject is tied to certain religious beliefs. That does not mean we get to turn it into a discussion on the existence of God, or anything like that. Not that what I'm seeing now is in any way a "discussion".

Please end it here.Well considering that the Ark of the Covenant was created by God to instill terror early on while housing stone tablets and supplanting a golden-calf (and killed a lot of Non-Levite Jews and Philistines...and terrorist Roman Catholic wops at Adowa-1898...used as a 'counter terrorist weapon in this case) I will concede there is no god but merely an advanced case of "third man syndrome" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Man_factor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Man_factor)

often experienced by mountain climbers: (i) Matthew 4 :1-11: "Again, the devil took him(Jesus) to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.":huh: (ii) Exodus 24: 15: "Then Moses went up to the mountain, and the cloud covered the mountain. The glory of the LORD rested on Mount Sinai, 7,490 ft, and the cloud covered it for six days; and on the seventh day He called to Moses from the midst of the cloud.…:yep:" (iii)"According to Islam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam), Muhammad's first revelation was the event in which Muhammad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad) was visited by the archangel Gabriel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel) (hey!!one of our guys too!) who revealed to him a verse from the Quran (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran). The event took place in a cave called Hira (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hira), 890 ft, located on the mountain called Jabal an-Nour (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jabal_al-Nour), near Mecca." :timeout: God, or whoever employs Gabriel...and/or the devil, knew Mohammed kept "a tight schedule" and a slow camel, occasionally the "mountain would come to Mohammed.":O: These guys (the big three) talked directly to god actually; a rarity where the air was ....thin!???? Park City, Utah is at 7,000 feet... considerably "up there" and I'm a true believer BBY! :/\\!!

[Rockstar]

What a possible terrorist might look like.

http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa408/jky242/07dafde45eb2bae20c0e9f735e1b07d5.jpg

http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa408/jky242/87485f5b6ef38438d624da055bf82331.jpg

http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa408/jky242/8cb09169397021d77202f5738e361910.jpg

[Oberon]

http://i2.wp.com/www.mbird.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/771.jpg?resize=500%2C398

[Rockstar]

Sooo, I was reading an article I found in the Daily Fail. Said ISIS claims to have WMD in Europe and is promising to use it.

Was wondering have there been any proclamations and promises they have not yet kept?

[Buddahaid]

Okay, the thread is about terrorism. I understand that a lot of today's news on that subject is tied to certain religious beliefs. That does not mean we get to turn it into a discussion on the existence of God, or anything like that. Not that what I'm seeing now is in any way a "discussion".

Please end it here.

While I agree with you in principal, there is no way to discuss global terrorism without discussing religion in the process since religion is the fount that begate it for the most part.

Aktungbby, is that what is meant by "on high"?

[mapuc]

Sooo, I was reading an article I found in the Daily Fail. Said ISIS claims to have WMD in Europe and is promising to use it.

Was wondering have there been any proclamations and promises they have not yet kept?

I was about to write the same.

I don't know if it's "misinformation" or propaganda from Daesh or their supporters in Europe.

I have difficulty to imagine what would happen if the story is true and they use it, here in Europe.

Markus

[Aktungbby]

Aktungbby, is that what is meant by "on high"? http://images.rgs.org/webimages/0/0/10000/2000/100/S0012148.jpg Hang on! I'm checkin' in with "the Third Man!" Sir Edmund's Thoughts: "Nobody climbs mountains (https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mountains) for scientific reasons. Science (https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Science) is used to raise money (https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Money) for the expeditions, but you really climb for the hell (https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Hell) of it" and the immortal: "Well George, we’ve knocked the bastard off."

[eddie]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v138/Thony/12345395_456312781223505_2725430589180221937_n_zps mankiqna.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Thony/media/12345395_456312781223505_2725430589180221937_n_zps mankiqna.jpg.html)

[Rockstar]

The problem with the above poster is confederate memorabilia, memorials, statues, flags, etc. etc. are not banned. The chief complaint was that stuff had no business being displayed on state and federal properties.

[Sailor Steve]

While I agree with you in principal, there is no way to discuss global terrorism without discussing religion in the process since religion is the fount that begate it for the most part.
This is true. On the other hand what I was pointing out was not discussion at all, but attacks and mockery.

[ikalugin]

http://ria.ru/world/20151206/1337189899.html
Iraq gave 48 hours for Turkish troops to leave it's soil.

I sense Balkans of 1914.

[mapuc]

http://ria.ru/world/20151206/1337189899.html
Iraq gave 48 hours for Turkish troops to leave it's soil.

I sense Balkans of 1914.

My Russian is not so good, in fact I can't any Russian except Njet, Da and Spasiba.

Going to reply on what you wrote

It's not the first time Iraq ask Turkey to leave Iraqi soil.

Markus

[Jeff-Groves]

This is true. On the other hand what I was pointing out was not discussion at all, but attacks and mockery.
Ya. General topics has a vast history of that with no punitive actions.
Itchy trigger fingers going on?
:hmmm:

[Rockstar]

Carefull, ref doesn't carry yellow cards. :D

http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa408/jky242/c247756272281de4a360cfadfc2d071b.jpg

[Onkel Neal]

Ya. General topics has a vast history of that with no punitive actions.
Itchy trigger fingers going on?
:hmmm:

We try to be as consistent as possible, but none of us are perfect. None of the moderators wishes to take a heavy hand, I really think they are pretty lenient with the gif-trolling and sharp elbows that come along with open discussion. :shucks:

[Oberon]

Only you can prevent gif trolling. :shucks:

[Rockstar]

Only you can prevent gif trolling. :shucks:

http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k570/slimer1/My%20Gifs/troll-detected-gif.gif

[Oberon]

http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k570/slimer1/My%20Gifs/troll-detected-gif.gif

Uh oh...better launch counter-measure gifs!

http://i.imgur.com/6xMBb9b.gif


Anyway...we'd probably better get back on topic...somehow...

Errr...how about the news that the Cali shooters had target practice?

(come on, help me out here)

[Rockstar]

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/9434/getbackontopic.jpg

[Rockstar]

http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa408/jky242/c7f1154ec7e74942a59873377aab4900.jpg

[Rockstar]

Hmmm might be hard to get restarted with that one. Target practice is not against the law.

[Buddahaid]

Errr...how about the news that the Cali shooters had target practice?

(come on, help me out here)

Lots of people take target practice. It's about as big of a red flag as what toothpaste they used. I can also go down to Home Depot and buy pipe so I don't see how either of those things help in rooting out terrorists in wait. I don't like feeling helpless but I'm not willing to give up free will to feel safer.

[Oberon]

pic

:o

What was the topic again? :hmmm:

Ah yes.

Well, that's true, and unfortunately it's one of those situations where really you haven't got much wiggle room in what you can do, perhaps these two should have been flagged on a list, but again, it's a very hard thing to do, especially if the target is radicalised offline and thus doesn't even come up on the FBIs radar until its too late.
Same goes for the type of yahoos who shoot up Planned Parenthood clinics because they think that baby harvesting goes on there, you know that they're out there and that they will be driven to do these things, but you just can't tell where or when. In the UK the problem is with knives, the incident at Leytonstone the other day shows that if one guy wants to get a knife and slash someone in the throat while shouting "This is for Syria" there's not a great deal that can be done to prevent him, the swift arrival of the police, as well as other people around the attempted terrorist meant that no-one died, but there were injuries. This is, I guess, an advantage of the knife over the gun in regards to casualty count. If the same guy had opened up with an assault rifle, you'd be looking at a similar death count to California, if not higher. Equally though, if other people in the tube had also had a gun then perhaps they'd have shot him first, who can say, it's the same old ground we've covered plenty of times before only this time there was a radical Islamist behind the trigger so there's that focus to work on that is lacking when it's anyone else.
On that note, has anyone actually worked out the motive for the guy who shot up the Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado? He seems to be keeping quiet about it, but that's not stopped a lot of speculation, I wonder if he'll actually give his motivation or whether he'll let the media do it for him. Either which way, his choice of target was telling.

[eddie]

I thought you had another terrorist stabbing in Oxfordshire at that Poundland store Oberon, turns out it wasn't, just some nutjob stabbing someone to death. Such a shame that has to happen.

[Oberon]

I thought you had another terrorist stabbing in Oxfordshire at that Poundland store Oberon, turns out it wasn't, just some nutjob stabbing someone to death. Such a shame that has to happen.

Aye, God alone knows what provoked him to do that in Poundland of all places. At least the police were able to quickly taser him and restrain him.

[Aktungbby]

Lots of people take target practice. It's about as big of a red flag as what ...they used.

:o

What was the topic again? :hmmm:

Ah yes.

and unfortunately it's one of those situations where really you haven't got much wiggle room in what you can do, .

At least the police were able to quickly taser him and restrain him.Precisely the opposite of how we do it here!:O: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/prince-georges-police-taser-a-handcuffed-man-after-traffic-stop/2015/10/18/bb2b3808-75a9-11e5-bc80-9091021aeb69_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/prince-georges-police-taser-a-handcuffed-man-after-traffic-stop/2015/10/18/bb2b3808-75a9-11e5-bc80-9091021aeb69_story.html) http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2009/07/man_stunned_with_taser_while_h.html (http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2009/07/man_stunned_with_taser_while_h.html)

MY favorite: http://www.torontosun.com/2015/11/12/video-virginia-police-repeatedly-taser-handcuffed-man-who-died (http://www.torontosun.com/2015/11/12/video-virginia-police-repeatedly-taser-handcuffed-man-who-died)

[Oberon]

Precisely the opposite of how we do it here!:O: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/prince-georges-police-taser-a-handcuffed-man-after-traffic-stop/2015/10/18/bb2b3808-75a9-11e5-bc80-9091021aeb69_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/prince-georges-police-taser-a-handcuffed-man-after-traffic-stop/2015/10/18/bb2b3808-75a9-11e5-bc80-9091021aeb69_story.html) http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2009/07/man_stunned_with_taser_while_h.html (http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2009/07/man_stunned_with_taser_while_h.html)

MY favorite: http://www.torontosun.com/2015/11/12/video-virginia-police-repeatedly-taser-handcuffed-man-who-died (http://www.torontosun.com/2015/11/12/video-virginia-police-repeatedly-taser-handcuffed-man-who-died)


:doh:

Protect and Serve, you're doing it wrong.

[Betonov]

There was a TV debate if our cops should be given tasers.
Considering they pull a gun once every 10 years in this country a taser would be a waste of money. But I'm all for it though.
The ''best'' par is, that the cops have 5year old tires on patrol cars because ''the ministry is saving money''* and now there's talk of buying some 6000 tasers :doh:

*that 5 cent harlot we have as the interior minister needs that money for new clothes, hairdressers and Croatian vacation :/\\!!

[eddie]

:doh:

Protect and Serve, you're doing it wrong.

:haha:

You couldn't pay me enough to be a cop over here!

[Oberon]

There was a TV debate if our cops should be given tasers.
Considering they pull a gun once every 10 years in this country a taser would be a waste of money. But I'm all for it though.
The ''best'' par is, that the cops have 5year old tires on patrol cars because ''the ministry is saving money''* and now there's talk of buying some 6000 tasers :doh:

*that 5 cent harlot we have as the interior minister needs that money for new clothes, hairdressers and Croatian vacation :/\\!!


There's been some talk over here if UK cops should be issued with firearms, but most people don't want them to have them and even the cops themselves don't want them. Tasers and the old flick-out trucheon do the job for all but the worst offenders, and for those we have the artists formerly known as SO19.

In other news, a Kilo SSK has successfully fired 3M-54 Kalibur missiles into Syria:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CVuqHptWEAQGD0H.png

[Rockstar]

There's been some talk over here if UK cops should be issued with firearms, but most people don't want them to have them and even the cops themselves don't want them. Tasers and the old flick-out trucheon do the job for all but the worst offenders, and for those we have the artists formerly known as SO19.

...

Never ever bring a knife to a gunfight.

[Betonov]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CVuqHptWEAQGD0H.png

The most awfull death is always so beautiful

[Schroeder]

Never ever bring a knife to a gunfight.
We pretty much don't have gun fights here.:yep:

[Aktungbby]

We pretty much don't have gun fights here.:yep:
U can't say that in http://www.goethe.de/mmo/priv/4769613-STANDARD.jpgBad Segeberg:D or around me when Im' a toten' ol Henrystutzen, my .44 mag. golden boy! https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/90/Winnetou.jpg/220px-Winnetou.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Winnetou.jpg)Jus go fer the light BBY!:sunny:

[Nippelspanner]

U can't say that in http://www.goethe.de/mmo/priv/4769613-STANDARD.jpgBad Segeberg:D
Have you been there?
Was there as a really young kid, loved it.

[mapuc]

The American Minister of Defense has sent a letter to Finland, Norway, Sweden and Denmark and asked them to send military aid to fight Daesh

Markus

[Rockstar]

The American Minister of Defense has sent a letter to Finland, Norway, Sweden and Denmark and asked them to send military aid to fight Daesh

Markus

If you ask me those nations have the least to do with this mess. Id tell Mr. AMOD 'pack sand'.

[mapuc]

If you ask me those nations have the least to do with this mess. Id tell Mr. AMOD 'pack sand'.

The Danish contribution was 6 F-16 who flew over 500 bomb mission in Iraq between Oct 2014 and Oct 2015. Right now they are back for maintenance and will in spring 2016 be back to engage Daesh not only in Iraq but also in Syria. At this moment The danish contribution is some advanced radar airplane.

Markus

[Jeff-Groves]

We try to be as consistent as possible, but none of us are perfect. None of the moderators wishes to take a heavy hand, I really think they are pretty lenient with the gif-trolling and sharp elbows that come along with open discussion. :shucks:

I understand what your saying Neal.
But I'll be brutally honest now.
Where SubSim was my number one place to go to and support since way back?
It's fallen to a point I rarely visit until I get a phone call or e-mail.
Ya. I'm just a single person that has probably very little impact on this great site.

Respect is earned and easily lost. I've lost more respect for some people then I really want to stay around for.

[Dowly]

If you ask me those nations have the least to do with this mess. Id tell Mr. AMOD 'pack sand'.

Fortunately, we've got laws that forbid our army to be used in combat role in foreign conflicts.

[Oberon]

Russian mission in Syria infographic:

http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/RussianInSyria_v2b.png

[Oberon]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CVoHwqyWcAAVrmf.jpg

Hundreds of Muslims march in London to condemn terrorism. Completely ignored by mainstream media.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/muslim-anti-isis-march-not-covered-by-mainstream-media-outlets-say-organisers-a6765976.html

[Schroeder]

Hundreds of Muslims march in London to condemn terrorism. Completely ignored by mainstream media.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/muslim-anti-isis-march-not-covered-by-mainstream-media-outlets-say-organisers-a6765976.html
Might be because a few hundred isn't exactly a lot compared to the number of Muslims in London. Let's face it, there is no huge outcry among the Muslim population against the terror attacks.:shifty:

On the other hand it seems that 90% of German commentators on tagesschau.de think that the only goal of our recon and the allied bombing campaign in Syria is to terrorize the local population with as many killed civilians as possible.:/\\!!
Strangely enough hardly a word about what DEASH is doing to said local population if we don't intervene.:/\\!!
It seems almost all comments are made by members of Die Linke (German left party) and I've grown to hate Die Linke just as much as I hate the NPD (German Nazi wannabe party).
http://meta.tagesschau.de/id/106240/bundeswehr-tornados-starten-is-kampf-beginn-eines-heiklen-einsatzes

[Oberon]

Let's face it, there is no huge outcry among the Muslim population against the terror attacks.:shifty:



Why does there have to be? Does the media go to the Pope every time a Christian kills someone?

[MaDef]

Why does there have to be? Does the media go to the Pope every time a Christian kills someone?Qui tacet consentire videtur, ubi loqui debuit ac potuit

[Schroeder]

Why does there have to be? Does the media go to the Pope every time a Christian kills someone?
Does it happen on an almost daily basis that a catholic shoots up a place and then claims to have done it for the Christian god?

Qui tacet consentire videtur, ubi loqui debuit ac potuit
For all those who (like me) didn't do too well at Latin in school: he who is silent is taken to agree.

[Jimbuna]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CVoHwqyWcAAVrmf.jpg

Hundreds of Muslims march in London to condemn terrorism. Completely ignored by mainstream media.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/muslim-anti-isis-march-not-covered-by-mainstream-media-outlets-say-organisers-a6765976.html

I'm beginning to notice small subtle changes in the BBC as well :hmm2:

[Oberon]

Does it happen on an almost daily basis that a catholic shoots up a place and then claims to have done it for the Christian god?

Does it happen that a Muslim shoots up a place on a daily basis? Not in the west, maybe in the Middle East, but then have you seen the violence in Africa done by Christian militia? The Lords Resistance Army is hardly a Muslim organisation. :O:
What about in the West? Well, I can cite at least one recent incident that resulted in three dead and several injured that most likely has links to Christianity in the long term, certainly it's religious based.
Likewise attitudes such as homophobia, transphobia and anti-abortion violence are very often traced back to attitudes instigated by religious people, and let's see where that leads:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unlawfully_killed_transgender_people#2015

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_bashing#Cases

More transgender people have been murdered in the US in 2015 than people have died of terrorist related causes. Heck, more people have been randomly shot in the US than have died of terrorism, but the Muslims have to speak out, and then when they do, it's still not enough.

[Aktungbby]

http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/7af722b4e3e0b68a801b60c589fa3601492f5764/c=2096-224-3687-2346&r=537&c=0-0-534-712/local/-/media/2015/12/09/USATODAY/USATODAY/635852845077688024-GTY-489280144-76063816.jpgMohammed Ali checks IN:"

“I am a Muslim, and there is nothing Islamic about killing innocent people in Paris, San Bernardino, or anywhere else in the world,” Ali said. “True Muslims know the ruthless violence of so-called Islamic Jihadists goes against the very tenets of our religion.
“We, as Muslims, have to stand up to those who use Islam to advance their own personal agenda. They have alienated many from learning about Islam. True Muslims know or should know that it goes against our religion to try and force Islam on anybody.”

[STEED]

I'm beginning to notice small subtle changes in the BBC as well :hmm2:

Organisers of an anti-Isis march in London have spoken of their frustration after mainstream media outlets failed to cover the demonstration.

Don't worry about it all protests marches hardly appear on the mainstream news these days and when they do a couple lines just before the sports news.

[Oberon]

Don't worry about it all protests marches hardly appear on the mainstream news these day and when they do a couple lines just before the sports news.

Ha, sadly true that, sadly true. :nope:

[August]

What about in the West? Well, I can cite at least one recent incident that resulted in three dead and several injured that most likely has links to Christianity in the long term, certainly it's religious based.

You can wish for a connection all you want but the picture emerging here is that the murderer is a loner nutcase with no ties to any religion or religious group. If he had said he wanted to protect ET would you have claimed it was the Martians who put him up to it?

[AVGWarhawk]

http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/7af722b4e3e0b68a801b60c589fa3601492f5764/c=2096-224-3687-2346&r=537&c=0-0-534-712/local/-/media/2015/12/09/USATODAY/USATODAY/635852845077688024-GTY-489280144-76063816.jpgMohammed Ali checks IN:"


Draft dodging.

None-the-less I like Ali and watched him fight when I was a kid. When he retired boxing was over for me.

[Oberon]

You can wish for a connection all you want but the picture emerging here is that the murderer is a loner nutcase with no ties to any religion or religious group. If he had said he wanted to protect ET would you have claimed it was the Martians who put him up to it?


Mr. Dear described as 'heroes' members of the Army of God, a loosely organized group of anti-abortion extremists that has claimed responsibility for a number of killings and bombings.


Dear wrote on a marijuana Internet forum: "Turn to JESUS or burn in hell [...] WAKE UP SINNERS U CANT SAVE YOURSELF U WILL DIE AN WORMS SHALL EAT YOUR FLESH, NOW YOUR SOUL IS GOING SOMEWHERE."

...

[August]

...

Links?

[AVGWarhawk]

You can wish for a connection all you want but the picture emerging here is that the murderer is a loner nutcase with no ties to any religion or religious group. If he had said he wanted to protect ET would you have claimed it was the Martians who put him up to it?


If you are talking about the Planned Parenthood shootings last week..yes sir..the guys is certifiable. He is the "Protector of the Children."

[Oberon]

Links?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Colorado_Springs_shooting


The thing is, and the point I'm trying to make here is would there be this much stigma against abortion, homosexuals and transgender if some people didn't take from verses of their religious text and use it against these people?
Sure, this particular nutjob may be psychologically damaged, but how did he get that particular image into his head that Planned Parenthood are murdering babies and harvesting their body parts?

[mapuc]

In the headlines in one of the Danish news paper yesterday

"Russia will stop at nothing: Putin threatens to use nuclear weapons against ISIS"

but says at the same time around he hopes "it wouldn't be necessary."

Markus

[Betonov]

In the headlines in one of the Danish news paper yesterday

"Russia will stop at nothing: Putin threatens to use nuclear weapons against ISIS"

but says at the same time around he hopes "it wouldn't be necessary."

Markus

Not a chance. If any other reason he wants Assad to get as much of Syria back.
But a Daesh fighter doens't know that. They're slowly thinking in their small heads: Russians, nukes, Russians, nukes...

[Oberon]

And don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming the religion itself, it's just a load of words after all...it's the way that people interpret those words and how they choose to enact that interpretation on others that's the problem.

It's a pretty familiar problem.

[eddie]

Not sure how true this is, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was. Seem's Daesh is destroying any shipments of drugs that come through the area they control in the ME. And it is starting to get the drug cartels upset. Now a war of words is going on between them, like the cartels are supposed to be scared of Daesh!:haha:

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/12/10/drug-lord-el-chapo-threatens-to-destroy-isis-in-e-mail

[Oberon]

Now that's an idea, ship all the Mexican drug cartels to fight Daesh. :yep:

[mapuc]

Not sure how true this is, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was. Seem's Daesh is destroying any shipments of drugs that come through the area they control in the ME. And it is starting to get the drug cartels upset. Now a war of words is going on between them, like the cartels are supposed to be scared of Daesh!:haha:

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/12/10/drug-lord-el-chapo-threatens-to-destroy-isis-in-e-mail

Didn't the Taliban do the same to the Drugs in Afghanistan ?

Markus

[August]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Colorado_Springs_shooting


It's an uncited reference which is quoting a NYT article that quotes an anonymous source. IOW biased propaganda until we have actual evidence of an actual connection to a Christian or anti-abortion group. The guy is a babbling madman. Who knows how he was manipulated into saying anything and whether he even actually understands what he said. A far cry btw from Farouk and wife coldly planning and plotting for years to commit their crimes.

The thing is, and the point I'm trying to make here is would there be this much stigma against abortion, homosexuals and transgender if some people didn't take from verses of their religious text and use it against these people? Well maybe and maybe not. Hate certainly does not require religion to exist. Religion might provide a handy excuse to stigmatize but there are plenty of other secular reasons to do so to just about any practice or group if one wants, and they do because it's human nature to subdivide and classify people into groups, tribes, cliques, teams, nations, whatever. Take one hate method away i'm sure people would find others to fill the void.

Sure, this particular nutjob may be psychologically damaged, but how did he get that particular image into his head that Planned Parenthood are murdering babies and harvesting their body parts?I don't know, perhaps from the mass media coverage of those undercover videos where the PP exec basically admits to it? But more realistically maybe it's because it's common knowledge that they are murdering (or at least killing) unborn babies and they are harvesting their body parts. Do they not perform abortions? Do they not sell body parts and stem cells? Good or bad intentions and profit margins aside that is exactly what they do.

But don't get me wrong Bud, i'm all for abortion. As I have said many times we have far too many people on this planet already and the last thing we need is more unwanted children in it, especially those born to parents unable or unwilling to make the personal, social and financial commitments to raising them properly so they don't turn into barbarians. We got too many of those too. I just don't believe in white washing what Planned "Parenthood" is really doing here, and more importantly to a good number of anti-abortion people what they do with tax payer funds.

[Oberon]

It's an uncited reference which is quoting a NYT article that quotes an anonymous source. IOW biased propaganda until we have actual evidence of an actual connection to a Christian or anti-abortion group. The guy is a babbling madman. Who knows how he was manipulated into saying anything and whether he even actually understands what he said. A far cry btw from Farouk and wife coldly planning and plotting for years to commit their crimes.

This is a fair point, although there are no doubt others who are not Muslim who coldly plotted and planned for years to commit a mass-murder.

Well maybe and maybe not. Hate certainly does not require religion to exist.

This is true.

Religion might provide a handy excuse to stigmatize but there are plenty of other secular reasons to do so to just about any practice or group if one wants, and they do because it's human nature to subdivide and classify people into groups, tribes, cliques, teams, nations, whatever.

Yup, religion is a handy excuse to stigmatize, be it Christian, Muslim, Jew or Hindu. All religions have their nutjobs, all religions have their murderers.

Take one hate method away i'm sure people would find others to fill the void.

Exactly, it's that part of human nature to subdivide and classify people that is the true root cause of this war, heck, you could say that it's the root cause of many wars, and of many murders and other crimes. The fear of something that isn't like me. Be it a Muslim, a Communist, or a Homosexual, to pick just three examples. But when someone from one of these groups commits an abherrant action, should all other members of that group, no matter how many they number, nor how they have lived their lives, apologise for that persons actions?
If someone from Subsim went on a killing spree at a mosque tomorrow, would Neal have to apologise for that persons actions? Would all of us in GT have to apologise? Would every single member of Subsim have to come into GT and say that they don't support the action of that individual?

I don't know, perhaps from the mass media coverage of those undercover videos where the PP exec basically admits to it? But more realistically maybe it's because it's common knowledge that they are murdering (or at least killing) unborn babies and they are harvesting their body parts.

The key problem in this subject, is the viewpoint of when one considers a foetus to have sentience. Until someone proves that one way or the other it's going to be a key problem in this debate.

Do they not perform abortions? Do they not sell body parts and stem cells? Good or bad intentions and profit margins aside that is exactly what they do.

Absolutely.

But don't get me wrong Bud, i'm all for abortion. As I have said many times we have far too many people on this planet already and the last thing we need is more unwanted children in it, especially those born to parents unable or unwilling to make the personal, social and financial commitments to raising them properly so they don't turn into barbarians. We got too many of those too. I just don't believe in white washing what Planned "Parenthood" is really doing here, and more importantly to a good number of anti-abortion people what they do with tax payer funds.

The problem is, is that it's become such a heated subject in the US (and indeed in Europe too, but not to the same extremes) that you get people taking violent actions against abortion clinics and the people who are employed by them and who use them. These violent acts run up to and including murder. Deals is just one in a line of people who have attacked abortion clinics, be they operating under the name of 'Planned Parenthood' or otherwise, and let's not forget that they don't just do abortions, they also provide forms of contraception and so forth. In an ideal world, contraception would be all that would be needed and the rest would be down to common sense and decency.
Of course, it's not a perfect world, and so clinics like 'Planned Parenthood' are needed, and it has, as you've pointed out, an additional side-benefit of helping to keep a more realistic population sustainability level without having to resort to something drastic like the Chinese did.
Ultimately, I believe that it should be put in federal law that a persons body is their own, to do with as they please, and while a foetus is inside that body, it's under the juristiction of the person whose body it is co-existing with. If that person decides that it no longer wants the foetus inside it, then that's the choice of that person.
Heck, I've seen children from the foster care system, and while foster parents do a fantastic job, it's no life for a kid, and like you say, if a couple do not have the means to have a child, nor the wish to care for one, then that child would be better off not coming out.

Ok...major veering off topic really, but I think really that something like abortion and even the harvesting of body parts and stem cells (with the former parents permission) should be something that is a part of the healthcare profession. Although it does run a bit in the face of the Hippocratic Oath, it is in the long term a beneficial option, especially in the cases where the mothers life is in danger through continued pregnancy, and when it comes to body parts and stem cells, they are very useful items for the medical system to have access to and could well benefit another persons life. From death comes life, as they say.
In Wales recently they changed the organ donor laws, so that rather than opt-in, you now have to opt-out, meaning that everyone will be treated as an organ donor unless they have something to state that they're not.
I think that's a fantastic idea, I would be an organ donor myself but I'm not sure how the tablets I'm on effects the organs...I should probably talk to my doctor and opt into the scheme once the current situation is over.

I understand people who have objections to abortion and to organ donation and stem cells. I wasn't raised a Christian, but I had an illustrated Bible and I went to a Church of England school, so I know the basics and I understand how people could view such things. But, I don't understand other people, who say that they are 'God fearing Christians' who use intimidation and violence, and even murder to try to stop other people using the free will that God gave them. To me those people seem as Christian as followers of Daesh must seem to Muslims. Yeah, I can understand the technical reason why they're doing something, but I really can't understand why they are doing something.

Still...I guess I've always been a dreamer. :hmmm:

[Dowly]

Two suspected ISIS members who took part in the 2014 Tikrit mass execution have been detained in Finland.

The National Bureau of Investigation says that two Iraqi men were detained in Forssa, Finland, on Tuesday on suspicion of terrorism-related murders committed in Iraq. The detentions took place peacefully.http://yle.fi/uutiset/two_detained_in_finland_over_isis_executions_in_ti krit/8518806

[Jimbuna]

Not sure how true this is, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was. Seem's Daesh is destroying any shipments of drugs that come through the area they control in the ME. And it is starting to get the drug cartels upset. Now a war of words is going on between them, like the cartels are supposed to be scared of Daesh!:haha:

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/12/10/drug-lord-el-chapo-threatens-to-destroy-isis-in-e-mail

From the link...

Blogger Steve Charnock told Daily Mail Online that he published the story and it was untrue.

[eddie]

From the link...

Kind of leaned that way myself Jim, but thought it would be funny if it was true.

[eddie]

Two suspected ISIS members who took part in the 2014 Tikrit mass execution have been detained in Finland.

http://yle.fi/uutiset/two_detained_in_finland_over_isis_executions_in_ti krit/8518806

I'm glad they caught them Dowly, wonder why they are in Finland in the first place? Were they looking for asylum or trying to cause problems there!?!

[Rockstar]

..., if a couple do not have the means to have a child, nor the wish to care for one, then that child would be better off not coming out. ...

Those are in my opinion rather poor excuses for snuffing out a life. One doesn't have to be religious or some zealot to look at what's going on today and see something dreadfully wrong. I mean, christ on a crutch, watching what has become the big business of killing off and harvesting human bodies for another humans benefit if you ask me the epitome of selfishness and akin to human slavery.

Dogs care and expect more from their young and pack.

I would rather see irresponsibility 'fixed' or 'snipped' than human bodies being harvested because someone didnt feel like taking responsibility for their actions. They want to behave like animals treat them like animals.

What a sick world this is. Everyone so afraid of their own mortality they will not hessitate to destroy another's life just so they can live another hour.

[vienna]

All part of that 'intelligent design'...


<O>

[Oberon]

Those are in my opinion rather poor excuses for snuffing out a life. One doesn't have to be religious or some zealot to look at what's going on today and see something dreadfully wrong. I mean, christ on a crutch, watching what has become the big business of killing off and harvesting human bodies for another humans benefit if you ask me the epitome of selfishness and akin to human slavery.

It's a moral grey area that's for certain. Wait until the time when some humans are made and grown especially for their harvestable organs.
Heck, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see someone somewhere go back into eugenics in a Third Reich way in the future, using people with mental disabilities as growing vats for organs for those who are mentally capable.

Dogs care and expect more from their young and pack.

:hmmm: Not always, a mother dog can and sometimes will kill her young, especially if she senses that something is wrong with them. Even if they do survive, sickly pups will often become the runt of the litter and without human intervention will have the odds against them to survive since they'll always be the last to get or do anything, drink, feed, hunt, etc.

I would rather see irresponsibility 'fixed' or 'snipped' than human bodies being harvested because someone didnt feel like taking responsibility for their actions. They want to behave like animals treat them like animals.

That's an option, definitely, and funnily enough I think that Planned Parenthood offers such options to people.

What a sick world this is. Everyone so afraid of their own mortality they will not hessitate to destroy another's life just so they can live another hour.

It's been like that forever. Fear of mortality, or perhaps lust or greed, fear of something different, they're powerful motivators and will cause fights, wars, murders, and much more.

[eddie]

Daesh has gotten their hands on a Syrian passport printing machine!:nope:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/isis-print-fake-syrian-passports-article-1.2463535

[Schroeder]

Daesh has gotten their hands on a Syrian passport printing machine!:nope:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/isis-print-fake-syrian-passports-article-1.2463535
Fun times ahead....:/\\!!

[eddie]

Is this International Terrorism Week!?! A whole lot of attacks going on all over the world it seems.:nope:

6 dead from suicide bomber attack on Iraq Saudi border
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/suicide-bomber-kills-six-on-iraq-saudi-border-officials/ar-BBnt6Is?ocid=U351DHP

21 dead after attack in Burundi
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/witness-21-people-found-dead-after-attacks-in-burundi/ar-BBnt3lN?ocid=U351DHP

Soldier killed and 4 wounded by bomb in SW Pakistan
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/bomb-kills-soldier-wounds-four-in-sw-pakistan-police/ar-BBnt0YK?ocid=U351DHP

Grenade attack on mosque in Ethiopia injures 17
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/bomb-kills-soldier-wounds-four-in-sw-pakistan-police/ar-BBnt0YK?ocid=U351DHP

50 dead after Taliban attack on airport in Kandahar, plus an attack near the Spanish embassy in Kabul
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/afghan-forces-end-siege-near-spanish-embassy-in-kabul-official/ar-BBnsB3X?ocid=U351DHP

Been a busy week for these thugs:doh:

[vienna]

Daesh has gotten their hands on a Syrian passport printing machine!:nope:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/isis-print-fake-syrian-passports-article-1.2463535

Basically all this does is make Syrian passports the most inspected, scrutinized, and verified passports in the world. Terrorists crossing international borders are not really very likely to want to be carrying such a red flag...


<O>

[Schroeder]

Is this International Terrorism Week!?! A whole lot of attacks going on all over the world it seems.:nope:

That is all just done by some misunderstood people and it has nothing to do with Islam...

Basically all this does is make Syrian passports the most inspected, scrutinized, and verified passports in the world. Terrorists crossing international borders are not really very likely to want to be carrying such a red flag...

You know that they are crossing the German boarder by the hundred thousands? We don't have time to inspect everyone to the bone.:shifty:

[Oberon]

And so he advances on his fatal road until another force comes forth to oppose him, and in a mighty struggle hurls the heaven-stormer back to Lucifer. Germany is today the next great war aim of Bolshevism. It requires all the force of a young missionary idea to raise our people up again, to free them from the snares of this international serpent...

[Schroeder]

And so he advances on his fatal road until another force comes forth to oppose him, and in a mighty struggle hurls the heaven-stormer back to Lucifer. Germany is today the next great war aim of Bolshevism. It requires all the force of a young missionary idea to raise our people up again, to free them from the snares of this international serpent...
I guess I'm missing some background info here. The first part sounds like it's from the bible, the other sounds as if it was from Mein Kampf.:hmm2:

[vienna]

You know that they are crossing the German boarder by the hundred thousands? We don't have time to inspect everyone to the bone.:shifty:

I was speaking in regards to the spread of terrorism to areas such as the U.S., not those where the geography lends to such overwhelming mass migration. It is indeed a very serious problem for Germany and the other nations in that area. Perhaps it is time for Europe to go back to the sealed borders of yore, if only temporarily, until the whole matter gets sorted...


<O>

[eddie]

I read where two of the attackers in Paris used these passports.

[Oberon]

I guess I'm missing some background info here. The first part sounds like it's from the bible, the other sounds as if it was from Mein Kampf.:hmm2:

Try all from Mein Kampf, or at the very least, from its author.

Got to love it when people set sights on a religion being the problem, that always works out so well. :salute:

[Schroeder]

Try all from Mein Kampf, or at the very least, from its author.

Got to love it when people set sights on a religion being the problem, that always works out so well. :salute:
And what does that have to do with anything? If you tried to tell me that there are other bad ideologies out there that should be fought as well then you are too late, I already knew that.:doh:
It's just that Islam is the most dangerous one at the moment.

[Oberon]

And what does that have to do with anything? If you tried to tell me that there are other bad ideologies out there that should be fought as well then you are too late, I already knew that.:doh:
It's just that Islam is the most dangerous one at the moment.

Is it? Is it really?

Strikes me that there's a much more dangerous one, one that teaches hate and makes it so much easier to start marginalising whole sections of people.
It also strikes me that it's sweeping the whole western world right now, exactly as the extremists who encourage it want it to.
Before 2001, if people had seen some of the things written about Muslims in media they would have been shocked and surprised that people could suggest such things, and be supported by other people.
We hear again and again and again how Islam is the biggest threat to the western world, and yet Islam kills more of its own people than it does of us, and yet whenever someone kills a hundred or so in a western nation we all run around screaming like the world is about to end. How many have died in Iraq and Afghanistan since 2001 and 2003? More than every terrorist attack in the US and Europe since 2001 and then a whole lot more, that's how many.
But no, we keep creating that boogeyman, keep putting it out in the media, keep stirring up that hatred and fear, keeping hollering about how Islam is the threat and it's a war against Islam. Yeah, pretty much the same words that the extremists themselves use.

I don't fear Islamic extremists...I fear what they might turn us into. :nope:

[Oberon]

And by the way, just as an aside, 87 people have died in Burandi today as tensions between the Hutus and the Tutsies rise. There's fears that there might be conflict again between the two, last time that happened some 50-100,000 people died.

[Schroeder]

I don't fear Islamic extremists...I fear what they might turn us into. :nope:
Why don't you like Nazis? Nazis aren't so bad. You see in 2013 560,660 people voted for the NPD in Germany. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationaldemokratische_Partei_Deutschlands#Bundesta gswahlergebnisse

However only 11,762 right wing felonies were recorded in the same year. http://www.petrapau.de/17_bundestag/dok/down/2013_zf-rechtsextreme-straftaten.pdf

That means even if every felony was committed by a different person only 2% of all Nazis became criminals. You see, the average Nazi is a peace loving person who doesn't like violence and is most likely even opposed to what the few criminal ones do. It's just a few radicalized ones that attack refugees, homeless, foreigners, left wing members etc. But that has nothing to do with real Nazism. Real Nazis don't like that. You see we shouldn't generalize them and allow them to build their education centers and do their parades through our cities and use all the symbols they want during protests and demonstrations. After all the vast majority don't commit any crimes. So why don't you like them?


I hope the sarcasm was clear. To me Nazism and Islam are pretty much interchangeable when it comes to turning their followers into violent zombies. Both ideologies are in my opinion totalitarian and opposed to freedom. None should have a place in the West.

[ikalugin]

We hear again and again and again how Islam is the biggest threat to the western world
For that is way better than Russia being considered the biggest threat.

[Oberon]

Why don't you like Nazis? Nazis aren't so bad. You see in 2013 560,660 people voted for the NPD in Germany. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationaldemokratische_Partei_Deutschlands#Bundesta gswahlergebnisse

However only 11,762 right wing felonies were recorded in the same year. http://www.petrapau.de/17_bundestag/dok/down/2013_zf-rechtsextreme-straftaten.pdf

That means even if every felony was committed by a different person only 2% of all Nazis became criminals. You see, the average Nazi is a peace loving person who doesn't like violence and is most likely even opposed to what the few criminal ones do. It's just a few radicalized ones that attack refugees, homeless, foreigners, left wing members etc. But that has nothing to do with real Nazism. Real Nazis don't like that. You see we shouldn't generalize them and allow them to build their education centers and do their parades through our cities and use all the symbols they want during protests and demonstrations. After all the vast majority don't commit any crimes. So why don't you like them?


I hope the sarcasm was clear. To me Nazism and Islam are pretty much interchangeable when it comes to turning their followers into violent zombies. Both ideologies are in my opinion totalitarian and opposed to freedom. None should have a place in the West.

But was every German a Nazi?

[Skybird]

Many Germans were no Nazis, and most Germans never strangled even a single Jew with their own hands. Still, the third Reich rose in Germany, not in another place, and Nazism and the evil of Hitler came from and by - the Germans and Austrians.

[Oberon]

Absolutely, but does that mean that all Germans and Austrians should have been killed in order to prevent the rise of Hitler?

[Schroeder]

But was every German a Nazi?
No, but that didn't keep us from committing some of the worst crimes this planet has ever seen with most people not doing much against that may it have been because of fear or because they didn't care/know or because they actually supported it. In the end what does it matter? The ideology was capable of finding enough willing helpers just as Islam finds enough people to fuel Daesh, Boko Haram, the Taliban etc.

Absolutely, but does that mean that all Germans and Austrians should have been killed in order to prevent the rise of Hitler?
No, and I never said we were supposed to kill all Muslims. It's the ideology that's evil and must be fought in my opinion. We actively fight Nazism while inviting Islam even though both ideologies are of the same evil. You can't be for one but against the other as both are way too similar in how they want to achieve their goals and control your every day life.
How can we justify to ban the swastika but allow symbols of another totalitarian ideology with the same mindset?
To me Nazism and Islam are pretty much two sides of the same coin. Both are intrusive ideologies that claim absolute supremacy over everyone else, both want to control their followers and/or force everyone into obedience and both don't allow different opinions or else.

I want neither ideology to gain influence in my country. To me we have opened the flood gates for refugees with a mindset like in Nazi Germany around 1937.
Imagine it's 1937 and you have several million people from Nazi Germany in your country. Actually some have been there for more than 40 years. They still speak German (and often times very little or no English at all and even actively refuse to learn it), wear brown shirts with swastika arm badges, frenetically cheer for Adolf Hitler when he visits your country and greet each other with Heil Hitler.

Of course there is also a portion who in fact did manage to integrate but it's probably not much more than 50% (if that much) and even though they are 3rd generation Brits they are still named Hans and Günter.
Would you consider that a problem? I would.

However if we replace "People from Nazi Germany" with Immigrants from Islamic countries everything is cool all of a sudden and we shouldn't worry too much.


In my opinion we need to push back Islam just as much as we need to push back Nazism. We shouldn't encourage it to grow here. But that makes me a Neo Nazi, fascist, xenophobe etc.

Why are both ideologies measured with different scales?:88)

[Armistead]

In my opinion we need to push back Islam just as much as we need to push back Nazism. We shouldn't encourage it to grow here. But that makes me a Neo Nazi, fascist, xenophobe etc.

Why are both ideologies measured with different scales?:88)

Very valid points and I agree. I find it so amazing people are so afraid to offend moderate Muslims, which exposes a lot, thinking moderates pose no problems to cultures. Most moderates still live in the dark ages of women are property, no civil rights, apostates can be killed and Islam should take over the world. Islam just hasn't reformed like other religions. In almost every nation, Muslims are forming strict religious communities way outside the norm, which can be seen when someone post something as simple as an offensive cartoon... Europe is starting to feel the effects of this dark age mindset.

Of the 10 worse nations ranked on women's rights, 9 are Islamic majority or ran nations. They tell us women prefer this, we know better, it's lifelong indoctrination.

Thankfully many Muslims simply don't follow the Koran...

[ikalugin]

Apparently majority of female sex organ mutilation is done... by women. My point is that while we may find it strange (and horrible) it is still done by women and are we to pass judgements (if it is done in countries other than ours)?

[Oberon]

No, but that didn't keep us from committing some of the worst crimes this planet has ever seen with most people not doing much against that may it have been because of fear or because they didn't care/know or because they actually supported it. In the end what does it matter? The ideology was capable of finding enough willing helpers just as Islam finds enough people to fuel Daesh, Boko Haram, the Taliban etc.

Every ideology finds violent supporters of it, especially if you get some who encourage that violence.

No, and I never said we were supposed to kill all Muslims. It's the ideology that's evil and must be fought in my opinion. We actively fight Nazism while inviting Islam even though both ideologies are of the same evil. You can't be for one but against the other as both are way too similar in how they want to achieve their goals and control your every day life.
How can we justify to ban the swastika but allow symbols of another totalitarian ideology with the same mindset?
To me Nazism and Islam are pretty much two sides of the same coin. Both are intrusive ideologies that claim absolute supremacy over everyone else, both want to control their followers and/or force everyone into obedience and both don't allow different opinions or else.

Then tell me, how do you fight 'Islam' without fighting every single Muslim on the planet? It's like saying that you must fight Christianity, or fight Sikhism, you are going to force every single follower of that religion into the defensive, and you are going to create that holy war that the radical followers of that religion want you to create.
In short, by fighting Islam, you're doing what Daesh wants you to do.
GG.

I want neither ideology to gain influence in my country. To me we have opened the flood gates for refugees with a mindset like in Nazi Germany around 1937.
Imagine it's 1937 and you have several million people from Nazi Germany in your country. Actually some have been there for more than 40 years. They still speak German (and often times very little or no English at all and even actively refuse to learn it), wear brown shirts with swastika arm badges, frenetically cheer for Adolf Hitler when he visits your country and greet each other with Heil Hitler.

We had those, they were called followers of Oswald Mosley. The most active and virulent fascists who refused to behave were interred and those who just quietly expressed their beliefs carried on as normal.
Heck, in America a fascist owned one of their biggest car manufacturing companies, and another one was a big politician.
I don't believe it would be particularly wise to set up camps for Muslims, like Donald Trump wants to, but I have no problem with imprisoning Islamic extremists.

Of course there is also a portion who in fact did manage to integrate but it's probably not much more than 50% (if that much) and even though they are 3rd generation Brits they are still named Hans and Günter.
Would you consider that a problem? I would.

I have no problem with a third generation Brit being called Hans or Gunter, most of our names are from foreign countries anyway. My name has its origins in Hebrew I believe.

However if we replace "People from Nazi Germany" with Immigrants from Islamic countries everything is cool all of a sudden and we shouldn't worry too much.

http://www.onaquietday.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/GermanJewsPouringintothiscountry.jpg

In my opinion we need to push back Islam just as much as we need to push back Nazism. We shouldn't encourage it to grow here. But that makes me a Neo Nazi, fascist, xenophobe etc.

Why are both ideologies measured with different scales?:88)

Probably because if all Muslims were the evil scumbags you seem to think they are then we'd be dead by now, since there are 2 billion odd of them. :O:

[Schroeder]

Then tell me, how do you fight 'Islam' without fighting every single Muslim on the planet?

No more massive mosques. No more special rights for Muslims (they can slaughter animals here in ways that are violating our animal protection laws but religious freedom trumps animal rights...). No more mass immigration of Muslims.
Immediate deportation of radical preachers and criminals without a German passport (regardless of religion). You come to this country you follow our rules, period!
That's how I would do it. No violence. No concentration camps, no harassment for the average Muslim John Doe who just wants to get by.


It's like saying that you must fight Christianity, or fight Sikhism, you are going to force every single follower of that religion into the defensive, and you are going to create that holy war that the radical followers of that religion want you to create.
So you also think we should stop being against Nazism? After all all that you said is also perfectly applicable towards Nazism....
Same thing, two scales.:88)

And what is the alternative? Just bending over and take it?


I don't believe it would be particularly wise to set up camps for Muslims, like Donald Trump wants to, but I have no problem with imprisoning Islamic extremists.
Trump is an idiot and setting up camps is stupid (and I've never advocated that). I do have a problem with imprisoning extremists though and that is that they will get free again after a few years. Deportation is the only solution I see for them to prevent them from doing their thing in my country.


Probably because if all Muslims were the evil scumbags you seem to think they are then we'd be dead by now, since there are 2 billion odd of them. :O:Read again. I've never said that all Muslims are evil scumbags, I repeatedly said that the ideology is evil. It's the same as with Nazi Germany. Not every German was/is a scumbag but the ideology that ruled the place was highly dangerous and evil and made a lot of people commit atrocities. Just like Islam.
Besides most Islamic countries lack the military power to be really dangerous. Maybe you should ask some Israelis what would happen to them if the neighboring Muslim countries had the military capacity to overrun them....

[August]

I don't believe it would be particularly wise to set up camps for Muslims, like Donald Trump wants to

I'm no fan of Trump but he hasn't advocated putting anyone in a camp.

[Armistead]

I think the future will be tricky, religious test, freedom of speech, etc., vs. security. That old saying "he that gives up liberty for security deserves neither" .... but to abide by that, it means you go to war and destroy your enemy, not so easy with a world religion.

I've watched numerous sermons by many so called moderate clerics in the US on youtube, debates and speeches, you start getting a feeling there's more a political religious movement going on to change systems and culture with a nod and a wink, what the radicals are doing is OK... leading the way. Sure it's not true with many, but obvious it's a tight religious group. If you start religious test, then there's the slippery constitutional slope, many liberal groups would love to ban so called hate speech spouted off in Christian churches.

Obvious the big problem is inner conflict between Islam itself, the numerous sects, Shiites vs Sunni, all the war and conflict leaves so many vacuums that create terrorist movements and we often get drug into the conflict. Another thing is obvious, Islam is often the religion of punks and thugs.

Other religions reformed, while many are hateful bigots, Islam is different. In a modern world with WMDs, I'm not sure we have 500 years waiting for it to reform, maybe not even a decade.....

[Aktungbby]

I'm no fan of Trump but he hasn't advocated putting anyone in a camp.

Neither did Hitler!:O: That's what minions R 4! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference)

[Armistead]

Apparently majority of female sex organ mutilation is done... by women. My point is that while we may find it strange (and horrible) it is still done by women and are we to pass judgements (if it is done in countries other than ours)?

Yea, but it's the indoctrinated mindset and often they have no rights or choice to freely choose, obtain knowledge, etc. If you're convinced from birth such things are divine, people will do anything. This is how all religious systems controlled the masses for generations. The civil rights abuse and violence towards women in Islam has to be exposed. People should never suffer torture, even if they agree to it because they never got to learn any better.

[August]

Neither did Hitler!:O: That's what minions R 4! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference)


All these hitler comparisons and not one person bringing up godsons law. :hmmm:

I guess that only applies for certain people right? :yep:

[Sailor Steve]

It's "Godwin's" Law, and given that the conversation seems to have turned to the comparing of certain ideologies it's not wholly inappropriate.

And what, specifically, only applies to certain people, and to which people?

[ikalugin]

Yea, but it's the indoctrinated mindset and often they have no rights or choice to freely choose, obtain knowledge, etc. If you're convinced from birth such things are divine, people will do anything. This is how all religious systems controlled the masses for generations. The civil rights abuse and violence towards women in Islam has to be exposed. People should never suffer torture, even if they agree to it because they never got to learn any better. Those practices are wide spread in secular (ie Kurdish) areas and in Egypt are done by medical practitioners. Thus they are not entirely based on religion or ignorance.

Now, if a subset of this practice is not health threatening and is done by consenting adults or by parents to their children, would you deny their right to do that?

If so, then I have to ask - would you enforce your views and customs onto the other people and countries the same way? And is that a morally right thing to do?

[Skybird]

Absolutely, but does that mean that all Germans and Austrians should have been killed in order to prevent the rise of Hitler?

If that would have prevented the beast from getting bred - yes. The people from whose middle evil rose, should have paid the price all alone, if the foreign victms by that could have been saved. - For comparable logic, the nuclear bombs have been dropped on Japan. The Austrians and Germans were responsible for WWII - not the many Poles and Dutch, and French and Greek that were slain in their name.

[ikalugin]

I guess Soviets do not count?

[Skybird]

Like many others. Should I list all those millions by individual name? I go on strike then.

Serious: Stalin. What the Nazis missed, was picked up by him. No difference between him and Hitler. Other people had their monsters haunting them at home, too.

[Oberon]

No more massive mosques. No more special rights for Muslims (they can slaughter animals here in ways that are violating our animal protection laws but religious freedom trumps animal rights...). No more mass immigration of Muslims.
Immediate deportation of radical preachers and criminals without a German passport (regardless of religion). You come to this country you follow our rules, period!
That's how I would do it. No violence. No concentration camps, no harassment for the average Muslim John Doe who just wants to get by.

I would say that banning large mosques is going a bit too far, but the rest is fair enough, except for where you say no more mass immigration of Muslims. Now, what about if these are Muslims who are fleeing from the radical Muslims that you're looking to stop?
Going back to our 1937 Germany comparison of earlier, Jewish Germans fleeing Germany, do we take them in? Even though they're from a nation run by the Nazi ideology, but they are in fact victims of that ideology rather than followers of it.
How do you split the two?


So you also think we should stop being against Nazism? After all all that you said is also perfectly applicable towards Nazism....
Same thing, two scales.:88)

Fair point, fair point. To be honest, I would say yes, in the manner in which Germany has prosecuted against Nazi symbolism and such. To be honest, many people in Germany are leaning towards Nazism anyway, just not towards Jews anymore since that's already been done. Look at PEGIDA, they're not against Jews and yet a keynote speaker (a Turk) at one of their rallies calling for the removal of Muslims from Germany says that "there were other alternatives - but unfortunately the concentration camps are out of order at the moment."
Now, no-one has banned PEGIDA even though it's heading down the NASDAP path, heck even the head of the Central Council of Jews in Germany can see the problems inherant in it, "He stated that the fear of Islamist terror was being exploited to disparage an entire religion. For him this was unacceptable."

And what is the alternative? Just bending over and take it?

Have I ever said that? No, the alternative is rational reaction, not flocking to the extreme left and right as Europe is doing now, and as it did back in the 20s and 30s. Let the refugees come, police the borders certainly, restrict them if necessary, house the refugees in temporary camps and work through them carefully and with the help of all nations of the EU, before rehoming them equally across the EU.

Trump is an idiot and setting up camps is stupid (and I've never advocated that). I do have a problem with imprisoning extremists though and that is that they will get free again after a few years. Deportation is the only solution I see for them to prevent them from doing their thing in my country.


Deport them where though, and how do you stop them coming back?
I'll admit now that I misattributed the camp project to Trump, I've seen since that he wants them all banned from entering the US rather than put in camps, but he did want all Muslims to carry ID cards if I recall correctly.
That's a step down a dangerous road in my book, and that's how these things start, when we accept that such steps are necessary, when the extreme becomes the normal.

Read again. I've never said that all Muslims are evil scumbags, I repeatedly said that the ideology is evil.
It's the same as with Nazi Germany. Not every German was/is a scumbag but the ideology that ruled the place was highly dangerous and evil and made a lot of people commit atrocities. Just like Islam.

And the anti-Islam ideology isn't dangerous either? I find that reacting to extremism with extremism is hardly a wise choice of action.
I guess if we want to keep with the World War II analogies then yes, every Muslim is a threat because they follow the evil ideology of Islam and should be treated as such, being isolated from society and interned in camps until it can be determined that they're not going to explode. After all, that's what America did in World War II, it's what we did in World War II to any Germans or people of German descent, including the German Jews who had fled to the UK seeking refuge from Nazi Germany.
I thought we were better than that, but I guess I was wrong. It's just a pity that we have to watch history repeat itself again, but what else would I expect from the human race, I suppose? :O: