The all purpose terrorism thread featuring plenty of allah akbar

[Nippelspanner]

http://i.imgur.com/CDTFRFr.gif
Appreciated!

[Jimbuna]

Appreciated!

No problem but I must admit it took a little sorting out :)

[Catfish]

The legends tell of a great warrior, who is still rolling somewhere in the deserts of Syria. If you listen closely at night, you can hear his comrades calling his name; ABU HAJAAAAAR!!

:hmmm: I don't get it .. :hmm2: :oops:

[Onkel Neal]

All right, Jim,. good deal :yeah:

[Oberon]

:hmmm: I don't get it .. :hmm2: :oops:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aM3ElTvF52I

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/abu-hajaar

[Rockstar]

Well there's your problem. Stop watching those cartoons kid, you'll rot your brain.

Tom & Jerry to blame for violence in Arab World:

official Al-Masry Al-Youm Salah Abdel Sadeq, head of the State Information Service, has blamed the spread of violence and extremism in the Arab world on Tom & Jerry cartoons and video games.

In a speech at the conference, “Media and Culture of Violence" at Cairo University's Mass Communication Faculty on Tuesday, he explained that the generations-old American cartoon condones violence, among other bad habits, for viewers. People — particularly young men — now spend long hours playing video games too, he continued. They get enjoyment from killing and shedding blood while playing. So when these young gamers are faced with social pressures in the real world, they resort to violence because it has become normalized for them as a response.

http://www.egyptindependent.com//news/tom-jerry-blame-violence-arab-world-official


.

[Oberon]

They need more Childrens Television Act! :yep:

[Rockstar]

Tom and Jerry cartoons, who knew? Glad we can finally pinpoint the cause of all that violence. For a moment there I was beginning to think it was religious zeal.

[mapuc]

An off topic story about the Swedish authorities and their view on violent cartoon

The authorities cut some minutes and censured some of Disney's and others cartoon. This was in the 80's and the 90's.

End of off topic story

Markus

[Jimbuna]

How about this for a propaganda coup?

A renowned Russian conductor will perform in the ruins of Palmyra in Syria on Thursday, Russian media say.
Valery Gergiev, who supported Vladimir Putin's presidential run in 2012, will perform at Palmyra's Roman Theatre, Rossiya 24 reported.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-36211449

[Rockstar]

http://www.idontgetit.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/photo-theyre-back.jpg

EgyptAir takes a header. Religion of peace suspected.

An EgyptAir flight from Paris to Cairo is more likely to have been brought down by a "terror attack" than a technical fault, Egyptian Civil Aviation Minister Sherif Fathy has said.

http://news.sky.com/story/1698511/egyptair-jet-disappears-over-mediterranean-sea

[Nippelspanner]

TERROR KNOWS NO RELIGION!!!111:stare::stare::stare:

[Oberon]

I've already started a topic on the EgyptAir crash.

[Rockstar]

Definition: Religion

1. “a set of beliefs and practices related to the issue of what exists beyond the visible world, generally including the idea of the existence of a being, group of beings, an external principle or a transcendent spiritual entity” (Adapted from Random House Dictionary of the English Language, 1967).

2. “set of beliefs, practices, and language that characterizes a community that is searching for transcendent meaning in a particular way, generally based upon belief in a deity” (Astrow et al. 2001).

3. religious beliefs – “formed within the context of practices and rituals shared by a group to provide a framework for connectedness to God” (Davies, Brenner, Orloff, Sumner, and Worden 2002).

4. “an organized system of practices and beliefs in which people engage … a platform for the expression of spirituality…” (Mohr 2006).

5. “outward practice of a spiritual system of beliefs, values, codes of conduct, and rituals” (Speck 1998).

What the west defines as terrorism, they define as holy war which is a integral part of their religion and according to these disciples who wage holy war the foundation of their beliefs are rooted in the Quran, Hadith and their religious leaders. I'd bet big dollars that if they did not 'believe' they were doing their allah service and would see paradise for their diabolical works I doubt they would have driven that aircraft into the sea.

[Nippelspanner]

I was sarcastic...

[Rockstar]

I knew that :D

[Jimbuna]

I've already started a topic on the EgyptAir crash.

We'll keep an eye on both for now subject to future/further developments.

[Rockstar]

Wishful thinking: aliens did it. Reality: terrorism.

[em2nought]

Wishful thinking: aliens did it. Reality: terrorism.
Reality: the weakness of the West is responsible

[Catfish]

The weakness of the west is responsible for all bad things on this world.
What is responsible for the weakness of the West?
The relative strongness of the East, South and North? :hmmm:

[Rockstar]

Its probably not wise to mistake ones reasonable expectation of civility as a weakness. There are though very evil people in this world who would take advantage of that and prey upon them.

[Skybird]

The weakness of the west is responsible for all bad things on this world.
What is responsible for the weakness of the West?
The relative strongness of the East, South and North? :hmmm:
No, but that everything keeps running in cycles - so does history. Societies, cultures, civilizations grow strong, blossom, climax, and then fall and degrade with growing age. Nothing lasts forever. Some last longer, some not - but forever nobody and nothing lasts.

We are old, and our minds got paralysed and deceived by an unprecedented periods of military peace in our home countries, and or ways of running our businesses as well as demographic aging plot our course for growing European unimportance. Our toothlessness does its part, too.

A light shining twice as bright shines only half as long. And we really wasted our intellectual resources in illusions and wishful daydreams. European civilization once was a leading light in the world, influencing all corners of the world, mostly for the better, and more dramatic in effects than any other civilization before ever did. Today - we are rotting meat.

Over 50% of the German citizens allowed to go voting, are over 50 - by trend this group is growing both in mean age and numerical size. Go figure what that meand for the foci of politicians when they want to get re-elected.

Cultures and civilizations are also about biological vitality. Ours face the end of its lifespan.

[Aktungbby]

ISIS has become a terror onto itself apparently: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/06/06/isis-kills-dozens-its-own-in-hunt-for-spies.html (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/06/06/isis-kills-dozens-its-own-in-hunt-for-spies.html) the group would kill 38 of its own members on suspicion of acting as informants.
They were among dozens of ISIS members killed by their own leadership in recent months in a vicious purge after a string of airstrikes killed prominent figures. Others have disappeared into prisons and still more have fled, fearing they could be next as the jihadi group turns on itself in the hunt for moles, In short ISIS is killing its own on speculation...so much for new recruits!

[Aktungbby]

ISIS has become a terror onto itself apparently: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/06/06/isis-kills-dozens-its-own-in-hunt-for-spies.html (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/06/06/isis-kills-dozens-its-own-in-hunt-for-spies.html) the group would kill 38 of its own members on suspicion of acting as informants.
They were among dozens of ISIS members killed by their own leadership in recent months in a vicious purge after a string of airstrikes killed prominent figures. Others have disappeared into prisons and still more have fled, fearing they could be next as the jihadi group turns on itself in the hunt for moles, In short ISIS is killing its own on speculation...so much for new recruits!

[August]

ISIS has become a terror onto itself apparently: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/06/06/isis-kills-dozens-its-own-in-hunt-for-spies.html (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/06/06/isis-kills-dozens-its-own-in-hunt-for-spies.html) In short ISIS is killing its own on speculation...so much for new recruits!

Purity tests inevitably turn inward.

[HunterICX]

Purity tests inevitably turn inward.

It's a very good sign if your enemy starts to do that. :yep:

[Betonov]

Start feeding them some false info about who's a spy and let themselves sort it out.

[Jimbuna]

It's a very good sign if your enemy starts to do that. :yep:

Rgr that :yep:

Start feeding them some false info about who's a spy and let themselves sort it out.

I should imagine that has been going on for some time now but it has taken the deaths of some of their senior players before coming to the realisation they could have troubles from 'within'.

[Catfish]

Well i hope they do not kill the "wrong" ones, since we indeed have some spies in their organisation..

[em2nought]

It's a very good sign if your enemy starts to do that. :yep:

Too bad "our" leadership doesn't purge itself. :03:

[Betonov]

Well i hope they do not kill the "wrong" ones, since we indeed have some spies in their organisation..

Our spies will make sure that they draw attention away from themselves.
Spies are smart


Too bad "our" leadership doesn't purge itself. :03:

They do. And after they purge you, you're left with a severance package worth 10 monthly salaries of fammilies that voted you in and enough contacts and leftover favors to land you a CEO level job.

[Jimbuna]

The Euro Championships starting in France next week must be the prime target now.

Hopefully, the security measures being taken will prove adequate.

[Jimbuna]

Doesn't appear to be making the news headlines as much as it has recently but yet another hospital has been hit by an airstrike in Aleppo.

At least 15 people are reported to have been killed and dozens wounded in a series of air strikes on rebel-held areas in the Syrian city of Aleppo.
One of the strikes hit a makeshift hospital in the eastern Shaar district, activists and a monitoring group said.
Video footage, purportedly of the aftermath, showed bodies being pulled from a partially destroyed building.
It was not clear who was responsible, but government forces are seeking to regain control of the divided city.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-36479415

[Aktungbby]

^ A particularly telling shot of Herr Assad imho http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/61DB/production/_89915052_a7459cdc-47a2-4756-86e9-63f29c98db38.jpg

[Schroeder]

Doesn't appear to be making the news headlines as much as it has recently but yet another hospital has been hit by an airstrike in Aleppo.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-36479415
It has been Assad's / Russia's strategy for some time now to destroy the medical infrastructure of an area before attacking it. My guess is they want to prevent wounded enemy fighters from being treated. Oh well, the civil population thankfully doesn't require medical aid.....:/\\!!

[HunterICX]

It has been Assad's / Russia's strategy for some time now to destroy the medical infrastructure of an area before attacking it. My guess is they want to prevent wounded enemy fighters from being treated. Oh well, the civil population thankfully doesn't require medical aid.....:/\\!!

Like the terrorists will respect Hospitals and not hide in them to fire from :roll:
Better blow it up now before more wounded are being brought in when the army starts to liberate the city and it has to be blown up because shots are being fired from it by cowardly terrorist trash.

[Schroeder]

Like the terrorists will respect Hospitals and not hide in them to fire from :roll:
Better blow it up now before more wounded are being brought in when the army starts to liberate the city and it has to be blown up because shots are being fired from it by cowardly terrorist trash.
Oh I'm fully aware of that and I don't blame the army. In fact I hope Assad will win that war as I believe all other options to be far worse for Syria and the entire region (plus it pisses Erdogan off as a bonus:D).
The problem is that the civilian population will now have a big problem until the city is liberated and that could take some time.:-?

[eddie]

Remember the way Daesh killed that Jordanian pilot by burning him to death while he was in a cage!?! Daesh just did it again, but this time it was to 19 Yazidi girls for refusing to have sex with their captors. It happened in Mosul. Each girl in her own cage, burned alive in front of a large crowd who could do nothing to save them.:( I imagine those people who witnessed it will hear the young girls screams for help, for a long time.:nope: I would have no problem with dealing out the same type of cruel death to those members of Deash who did this to those young girls. I would sleep damned good too.

http://nypost.com/2016/06/07/yazidi-girls-burned-alive-for-refusing-to-have-sex-with-isis-captors/?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=NYPFacebook&utm_medium=SocialFlow

[HunterICX]

^ And the only time you hear about civlian casualties now on the news is when Russian or Syrian Governement troops dropped a bomb on them.

What about the daily atrocities commited by Daesh to civilians? Naah that's so 2014.

[Rockstar]

Women being burned alive, planes blown to bits? Its all part of the new norm, get used to it.

[Oberon]

Eh, that's how it is these days, they can blow each other to pieces in the Middle East and you're lucky if you see it before page 7. One guy stabs another guy in a western city in the name of Allah and it's front page news. :hmmm:

[Schroeder]

Eh, that's how it is these days, they can blow each other to pieces in the Middle East and you're lucky if you see it before page 7. One guy stabs another guy in a western city in the name of Allah and it's front page news. :hmmm:
Big difference there though. What they do to each other over there is their thing and I've stopped caring a long time ago. But when they do something here they do it to us. Big difference.

[Dowly]

Big difference there though. What they do to each other over there is their thing and I've stopped caring a long time ago. But when they do something here they do it to us. Big difference.
Exactly.

Violence over there is a daily thing, in some areas, suicide bombings are almost a weekly thing.

But someone chopping a head off in Europe? It's not quite the same. It hits closer to home and is not something we have grown used to happen often.

[Jimbuna]

Eh, that's how it is these days, they can blow each other to pieces in the Middle East and you're lucky if you see it before page 7. One guy stabs another guy in a western city in the name of Allah and it's front page news. :hmmm:

Sad but true.

[Oberon]

Big difference there though. What they do to each other over there is their thing and I've stopped caring a long time ago. But when they do something here they do it to us. Big difference.

Us vs them, I guess. :hmmm: Bit unfair considering how much input we had in starting this ball rolling, and keeping it rolling, but that's the western mindset I guess, Not In My Backyard™. :yep:

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Us vs them, I guess. :hmmm: Bit unfair considering how much input we had in starting this ball rolling, and keeping it rolling, but that's the western mindset I guess, Not In My Backyard™. :yep:Well you can always discuss about responsivility (which is good debate to have), but in the end most of current generation (or past for that matter) had nothing to do (except existing Western country) in creating this mess.

Besides there isn't anything new in people's attitudes. Think about accidents, its very different thing emotionally if you have some kind of association with victim(s) be it family connection, friendship or in cases like this being nearby you and/or happens in culture relatively similar with your's.

[Oberon]

Well you can always discuss about responsivility (which is good debate to have), but in the end most of current generation (or past for that matter) had nothing to do (except existing Western country) in creating this mess.

Besides there isn't anything new in people's attitudes. Think about accidents, its very different thing emotionally if you have some kind of association with victim(s) be it family connection, friendship or in cases like this being nearby you in culture relatively similar with your's.

True, true, although one can talk indeed about the amount of responsibility the average citizen has for the actions of the country that they inhabit. If I vote for a government and that government declares war on another country then do I bear responsibility for that declaration even though I am against that war?

But yes, ultimately this generation bears little responsibility for the initial cause of this unrest, which dates back at the very least just under a hundred years.

And indeed, you're spot on about peoples attitudes, and it is a shame, but I guess we can be grateful that with access to the internet that at least the information is more easily accessible than it would be filtered through newspaper and television media. It's a double-edged sword since all kinds of information both true and false are also available with the onus being on the reader to weigh up the veriacity of it. :hmmm:

[Schroeder]

I'm sorry but I can't and actually don't want to mourn/worry/root etc. for every third world country and person. It would make me go insane. It's enough for me to get my depressions from doing all that for my own people and myself. :-?

[Nippelspanner]

I'm sorry but I can't and actually don't want to mourn/worry/root etc. for every third world country and person. It would make me go insane. It's enough for me to get my depressions from doing all that for my own people and myself. :-?
/signed.

[Oberon]

The U.S. Code of Federal Regulations defines terrorism as "the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives"http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/36510272

There's been an attack in a gay club in Orlando, multiple casualties, reports of a bomb being present and a controlled detonation carried out, but thankfully the gunman is reported to be dead now.

Now before people jump on me because this hasn't been confirmed as a Muslim attack, I determine this to likely be politically or socially motivated because it has taken place against a gay nightclub, and given the situation in the US regarding homosexuality it is highly possible that this was a deliberate choice of target against the civilian population related to a social or political vendetta.

EDIT: It has been suggested by the FBI that the shooter may have had leanings towards radical Islam.

He has been named as Omar Marteen, a US citizen from Port St. Lucie.

Death count has been raised from 20 to 50, with an additional 53 in hospital.

[Torplexed]

Just a day after singer and songwriter Christina Grimmie was murdered in an Orlando nightclub by a demented fan while signing autographs after a performance. A grim weekend in Florida. :down:

[Rockstar]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/36510272

There's been an attack in a gay club in Orlando, multiple casualties, reports of a bomb being present and a controlled detonation carried out, but thankfully the gunman is reported to be dead now.

Now before people jump on me because this hasn't been confirmed as a Muslim attack, I determine this to likely be politically or socially motivated because it has taken place against a gay nightclub, and given the situation in the US regarding homosexuality it is highly possible that this was a deliberate choice of target against the civilian population related to a social or political vendetta.

EDIT: It has been suggested by the FBI that the shooter may have had leanings towards radical Islam.

He has been named as Omar Marteen, a US citizen from Port St. Lucie.

Death count has been raised from 20 to 50, with an additional 53 in hospital.


xxxxxxxxxx edit: Oh nevermind

[Oberon]

Just a day after singer and songwriter Christina Grimmie was murdered in an Orlando nightclub by a demented fan while signing autographs after a performance. A grim weekend in Florida. :down:

Looks like LA may have had a close call too:

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-gay-pride-la-weapons-20160612-snap-story.html

[Skybird]

The Muslim terrorist in Orlando seems to be confirmed to have vowed loyalty to IS. His family are Muslim Afghans with now US papers. I put it like this because differentiating between cultural origin and cultural home and ethnicity, and bureaucratic formalities, may be politically incorrect, but is important. Identity is more than just papers, and a stamp on them. MUCH MORE. You do not become American or German or French or whatever just by getting a new ID card. There is a historically grown background story - and it weighs heavily.

Muslim lobby groups alreayd started to campaign for "Islam and religion have nothing to do with it". As always. An innocent lamb who still believes this nonsense.

[MaDef]

Muslim lobby groups alreayd started to campaign for "Islam and religion have nothing to do with it". As always. An innocent lamb who still believes this nonsense.The following idiom is an appropriate response.

Actions speak louder than words.

[Nippelspanner]

Identity is more than just papers, and a stamp on them. MUCH MORE. You do not become American or German or French or whatever just by getting a new ID card. There is a historically grown background story - and it weighs heavily.
I agree, and I struggle to understand why so many other people don't get this fact. One example are German crime statistics. Some Gutmenschen claim that "Just as many Germans commit certain crimes as Muslims/migrants." and they hint to some statistics that heavily play in their favor by discounting those who are "German" - although they are culturally from wherever.
That is such nonsense and for me it counts where someone is from instead of what a piece of paper says. "Chello, me Ahmed, me German!" Uh, sure... now tell me about your German culture and herita... oh, right. :shifty:

If I get the US citizenship tomorrow, I'm still not 'American', nor will I ever be. I am German, born and bred.
Saying anything else is nothing but feels over facts political correctness or to push certain agendas. And it has to stop.

[Nippelspanner]

And sorry for double post but I think that's worth it: Thoughts and Prayers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FLGEr1zJYo)

[Skybird]

If I get the US citizenship tomorrow, I'm still not 'American', nor will I ever be. I am German, born and bred.
Saying anything else is nothing but feels over facts political correctness or to push certain agendas. And it has to stop.
That's mostly true, its just that regarding culture, mentality, historic origin, while there are differences between Germans/Europeans, and Americans, these two still are relatively close to each other, last but not least due to the shared history and the mass migration from Europe to the US. Although this closeness may change over time due to the influx of present mass migration. Thats why we usually do not make big deal of migrants living in our middle coming from our direct neighbouring country, for example. Its easy for both sides, one already is very close, and not just in space. The greater the cultural differences and the differences in historically grown identity, the more difficult it becomes. If then the other comes from a culture that takes a very supremacist stand on all other cultures and implies they must be subjugated anyway, like Islam does, then it is even worse., because integration by the migrant gets actively refused in deed and thought. And it explains why migrants from diffrent countries and cultures must be described separately in statistics. in germany, migration from asia for exampel does exist, to some extend, there are Chinese, Japaness, Koreans living here, Vietnamese as well. It goes unnoticed, almost, becausue they cause no problems, they come from quite a different culture, but that culture is not as aggressive and supremcaist, as Islam. They fit in. Dutch and Danes, French and Spaniards, Poles, Brits and even the occasional american - no big deal, there are difference, but they are minor, often one even chuckles about them together. This shared intersection is what makes the West actually "the West". But the moment the migration group comes from any Muslim country, no matter which one, the indices in warning categopries of statistics go up steeply and integration flies out of thew window in most cases.

Thats why it is also idootic if German spocilaistsa compare the waves of migrants coming now from Northafrican Islamci countries and the ME, with the war refugees Germany let in after WWII. Those war refugees were comign from places that culturally are so very much closer to European and Germn culture, than the Islamci world ever was, and most of those refugees were the descendants of germans who had moved to Easteuropean coutnries and Russia in centuries before anyway, so already had German roots anyway, also were close to the German language, and of course althogh Catholicism and Orthodoxy are twop traditons now, both nevertheless share the same Christian fundament.

To expect that so many Islamic migrants can be integrated and to think Germans can do that, by referring to the example of the post-WWII mass exodis to Germany, is a bad joke. Both events have NOTHING in common, nothing. Not to mention that Germany back then faced what it has caused itself (the war), while we are not responsible for 1000 years of Islamic tradition forming and corruption in their own countries and the ways in which these people and their forefathers laid the basis for the ongoing tyrannies they then lived under. Its their cultural evolution they suffer from, or better the lack of cultural evolution.

All these implications should be healed by newspapers not calling a Muslim suspect as Muslim suspect or an Arab an Arab, but by talking of "a person" only who did something? A "man"? A "citizen"? I think we are more than just zeroes for women and ones for males, we are a bit more feature-enriched than just this, aren't we.

Its so idiotic. I still recall how the police in Cologne some years ago released a warrant in the newspapers, asking for hints on a group of male persons who were to be seen at a given time at a given place - but avoiding just any description that referred to actually helping to recognise them - because they were from the ME. And there were so many examples like this, although after the sexual mass attacks in Cologne half a year ago now there seems to be a shy drop in self-gagging at least in some media.

A bit off topic, but also, a bit not off topic. Obama once again carefully avoided to identify the origin of Muslim terrorism, this time in Oregon: Islamic ideology. Unacceptable.

[em2nought]

So what was the FBI's budget last year because if questioning this guy twice is the best they can do maybe we should just shut them down. https://www.ispot.tv/ad/Ant5/lifelock-fix-it

[Skybird]

French special commandos shot dead an assumed-to-be terrorist in Paris who before had shot a police officer and took that officer'S family as hostage. After storming the house, they also found a woman (I assume the mother and wife), and an living kid. The attacker declared himself to be loyal to IS. Islamic ideology had nothing to do with it.

[Oberon]

Every ideology can be used as a weapon, but what is a weapon other than a tool to be used by the holder? :hmmm:

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

So what was the FBI's budget last year because if questioning this guy twice is the best they can do maybe we should just shut them down. https://www.ispot.tv/ad/Ant5/lifelock-fix-itFor some reason video (if there is such, I see only commercials) doesn't work for me so I would appreciate if someone could provide summary on content.

Anyway I would like remind people that FBI isn't secret police as used by dictators to deal with troublemakers. They can't imprison anyone indefinately so unless they get sufficiet evidence they have to release suspect. In my opinion it is very good thing it is that way.

[Von Due]

For some reason video (if there is such, I see only commercials) doesn't work for me so I would appreciate if someone could provide summary on content.

Anyway I would like remind people that FBI isn't secret police as used by dictators to deal with troublemakers. They can't imprison anyone indefinately so unless they get sufficiet evidence they have to release suspect. In my opinion it is very good thing it is that way.

Just like to add to that:

Considering the number of possible threats to the US each year (it is a rather large number before being categorized according to plausability and risk), law enforcement and intelligence agencies have a monumental task not only tracking each threat as they are identified, but in identifying them in the first place. You can't just call someone up and ask them if they are plotting and scheming. You need to be able to trace them from, and to, known threats or activities such as financial activities and communication that are linked to known threats. This, needless to say, only works if there is an organisation behind the plotting and scheming. It does not work when individuals, or small groups of individuals for whatever reason, suddenly get the idea of committing an act of terror. Lone wolves are notoriously difficult to identify. One example is Breivik, the mass murderer behind the shootings and bombing in Norway.

The Norwegian police's intelligence did catch on to his purchases of bomb making materials that weren't necessarily illegal on their own, but this guy acted on his own, with noone but himself involved. A recipe for purchased electric wire is not enough to arrest him when there are no other signs of that would come.

In both the latest French incident and in recent US incidents, the men were lone wolves as far as anyone can tell. That they said they consider themselves to fight for ISIS does not imply ISIS had any idea. It does not go both ways by default.

To round it up: To blame the FBI, or any other agency for failing to get these guys before they can commit these murders, is really not fair at all. Lone wolves in particular do have a higher chance of slipping through the many nets that are out there than more organised attackers. The agencies do work 24/7 to get as many as they can but they are not magicians. There are no unicorns or pixies whispering information into their ears. If the plan only exists in one person's mind then it is more of a miracle the times the agencies do successfully identify and arrest the threats before bad things happen.

[Catfish]

^ Very true. The FBI generally stands on legal ground, it is effective and professional.


However i could not resist to post this :)


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y174/penaeus/The%20difference_zpseekrfwm5.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/penaeus/media/The%20difference_zpseekrfwm5.jpg.html)

[Nippelspanner]

Every ideology can be used as a weapon, but what is a weapon other than a tool to be used by the holder? :hmmm:
Yet only Islam is being "used"!
Truly Islam can not be blamed and this poor poor religion of peace, coincidentally once again, was "abused" by some nutcases because... because Buddhism is lame?!

Why is it so hard for you to admit that Islam itself is radical and basically promotes what all these people are doing? Why is it that it is solely Islam, not Christianity or Buddhism etc.? Why is it Islam/religion at all?

Why do people feel the need to defend this sick ideology by any means, no matter the facts?
Genuine question, for I don't understand this kind of behavior at all.
What is your motivation, I wonder? How do you convince yourself that Islam is totally dandy, while news from all over the world contradict you?

You know, if nothing bad would have happened, ever, in the name of religion and especially (exclusively if we talk modern times) Islam, then yeah, sure "what the Hell people!?" but...that is not the case. Is it?

Now, a French cop was murdered, along with his wife.
In Orlando 49 people had to die because Allah is totally akbar and gay people suck.
And who knows what will happen until July 10, when the festivals are over in France.
But sure, poor Islam is just being abused again, nothing to see here, move along citizen and do not leave the PC-queue, move along now...

:down:

[Skybird]

Every ideology can be used as a weapon, but what is a weapon other than a tool to be used by the holder? :hmmm:
That puts Hitler or Stalin, the KKK or the Khmer Rouge into a completely new light.

[Von Due]

Yet only Islam is being "used"!
Truly Islam can not be blamed and this poor poor religion of peace, coincidentally once again, was "abused" by some nutcases because... because Buddhism is lame?!

Why is it so hard for you to admit that Islam itself is radical and basically promotes what all these people are doing? Why is it that it is solely Islam, not Christianity or Buddhism etc.? Why is it Islam/religion at all?

Why do people feel the need to defend this sick ideology by any means, no matter the facts?
Genuine question, for I don't understand this kind of behavior at all.
What is your motivation, I wonder? How do you convince yourself that Islam is totally dandy, while news from all over the world contradict you?

You know, if nothing bad would have happened, ever, in the name of religion and especially (exclusively if we talk modern times) Islam, then yeah, sure "what the Hell people!?" but...that is not the case. Is it?

Now, a French cop was murdered, along with his wife.
In Orlando 49 people had to die because Allah is totally akbar and gay people suck.
And who knows what will happen until July 10, when the festivals are over in France.
But sure, poor Islam is just being abused again, nothing to see here, move along citizen and do not leave the PC-queue, move along now...

:down:

The highlighted bit.
I'm sorry to say but that is provable not true.
Jewish extremists have committed attrocities alongside muslim extremists like firebombing family homes. They have both committed attrocities alongside Christians and atheists alike.
Buddhism is not innocent either. Look up Ashin Wirathu and the 969 Buddhist Nationalist movement. They talk about things like "race", "racial purity", about restrictions on marriages between Buddhists and Muslims, and boycotts of Muslim-owned businesses. Swap muslim for jew and it's all too familiar. Weirdly enough he apparently likes to see himself as a Burmese Bin Laden... Some red flags should go up here.
And the supporters of this Ashin are no strangers to violence including murder. Do these "gents" represent Buddhism worldwide? Of course not but they are there and doing it all in the name of Buddhism.

To say that Islam is the only religion spreading hate is nonsense. We need to stop making up excuses for our own personal favourites and look at all religions. I can't think of any religion really, among the big ones, that is innocent.

[Nippelspanner]

To say that Islam is the only religion spreading hate is nonsense. We need to stop making up excuses for our own personal favourites and look at all religions. I can't think of any religion really, among the big ones, that is innocent.
That isn't what I meant but I sure worded it poorly.
I'm talking context, though.

Look at terror in the name of Islam and you will find it all over the globe, DAILY.
Look at all other Religions combined... mh... get's a little quiet now, does it?

And if you meant to imply that I have a favorite Religion... I'm an atheist and despise every single religion, don't worry. However, it is Islam that tries to conquer this globe and causes 99% of the trouble - or not?

[Catfish]

All bad things can be done "in the name" of someone, or something.
This is the excuse, to do what one does, to perpetrate atrocities and kill.
With religion, it is god or whatever you call him.
With war it is your superior officer who orders you to kill, so you do not need to think about it or be reluctant, you have your justification. For king and country, for god, against evil, you name it.
The art is to find out whether it is real evil, or just a comfortable excuse to let yourself be instrumentalized by some lunatic.

All religions have had their times of killing and suppression. Islam is a -relatively- young religion, and the people are thus in a way closer to its original bloody text, and founder. The bible has similar laws what to do with infidels and the like, but it is not longer being practised.
When and where was the last witch burned? 19th century i think.

Imams and Islam interpreters have not gone through the processes of interpretation, exegesis and abstraction, at least not as far as the 'older' religions have done that. Some do not separate state and religion, demanding a religious law. But not all.

Terrorism can be perpetrated by anyone, with whatever justification. In this contemporary fashion it is islamic religion. During war it is not called terrorism, at least not by the victor.
I am sure man will find another excuse to kill each other, as soon as this current religious fashion dies out. IMHO man himself is the disease.


edit: no muslim with its quarterpound of brain can reasonably support extremism, so a demand to distance themselves from terrorism is fruitless. The real extremists are much too bullheaded, and for the normal peaceful muslim this demand sounds like an insult.

[Von Due]

That isn't what I meant but I sure worded it poorly.
I'm talking context, though.

Look at terror in the name of Islam and you will find it all over the globe, DAILY.
Look at all other Religions combined... mh... get's a little quiet now, does it?

And if you meant to imply that I have a favorite Religion... I'm an atheist and despise every single religion, don't worry. However, it is Islam that tries to conquer this globe and causes 99% of the trouble - or not?

If you look at this http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/target/etc/modern.html
you might notice something peculiar, namely what appears to be a correlation between certain political events, regionally, nationally and globally, and terrorism.

If any religion was the one, true cause for these attacks then we should have seen a steady flow of attacks throughout history yet, that is not what history shows. Sure, you have ancient groups like Nizari Ismalis which were assassins but you can't say that the number of Islamic terrorist attacks have remained close to constant adjusted for population. It have however increased dramatically the last handful of decades, especially after 1945. The religion has not changed I think we can safely say. Something else has changed and that something else is the political and economic balance globally, regionally and nationally. People's daily lives have changed. Their opportunities have changed.

The problem is not a particular religion but fundamentalism, a term incidentally first linked to Christian groups in the 19th and 20th century, that rises when the political/economic situation allows it or even promotes it. I'm not saying fundamentalism equals terrorism because it simply doesn't. What I do say though is that terrorism leaps out of fundamentalism whatever shape or form it takes.

It is not your average Jew who go out to gun down people. It is not your average Christian who go out and gun down people. It is not your average Buddhist that go out and gun down people. It is not your average muslim who go out and gun down people. When the political stability disappears, when the economic stability disappears, that's when things can get nasty for real. When leaders with their own interests show up talking people into a frenzy, that's when things do get nasty for real.

The people behind all these attacks are fundamentalists (obviously not counting the genuine fruitloops) acting according to an interpretation of their own religion not shared by most other of their own religion. The religious leaders who talk the crowd into this are of a varied sort. Some are politically motivated, others are genuinely sure they are right and holy, to some it's about personal power, wealth, freebees at the slave market or in the confessional and some are plain psychotic with a silver tongue.

My point is: Unless we attack fundamentalism wherever it appears, unless we attack the very reasons fundamentalism can rise, as long as we neglect that, we will have terrorist attacks coming from anywhere. Our problem is, we don't want to pay the pricetag that comes with removing those causes so we keep ignoring what we really can't afford to ignore, if we really want to see terrorism on the decline.

PS: In no way did I make any suggestions as to what your religion could be, intentionally that is. It was directed to each and every one of us, all 7+ billion of us and yep, I consider myself an agnostic with some heavy leanings towards atheism but this is really irrelevant.

[Skybird]

To say that Islam is the only religion spreading hate is nonsense. We need to stop making up excuses for our own personal favourites and look at all religions. I can't think of any religion really, among the big ones, that is innocent.
Muhammad alias the Prophet called for subjugaton of the other, and conquest. Show me were Siddharta alias the Enlightened or Jesus alias the Risen have done that. Buddha called for reaosn and self-reralisation by undertanding one'S own mind and how it functions, Jesus, in plenty of metaphors, I admit, also pointed to people's inside as the source of relief from suffering. Theists will call me out on that and insist that his talking of Father and God have to be taklen literal, but if taking it literal, it makes no sense what he said and only is another addition to the huge canon of superstitious mumbojumbo. People like Meister Eckhart and the socalled Christian mystics porbbaly got it best what Jesus wanted to say - and that is not what the church's official view of things are! Some historians even claim there were hints that could indicate that Jesus even travelled to IUndia in the time before the Bibles starts vtracking and telling his life, and that he may have learned about Buddha'S teahcing there. It is speculation to me, but I see no principle unsurmoutable contradictions between Christian mysticism and Buddhism. - Subjugation, totalitarian unity, conquest demanded by Muhammad, self-realisation and exploring mind, tolerance and peacefulness without subjugating thb eother by force, recommended by Siddharta and Jesus. - You are wrong, by content ideologies are NOT all the same. Not by lightyears. Islam once had a mystic tradition, too, btw, much to the anger of the orthodoxy. When the Moingoles destroyed Bahdad, this traditoion and it smajor names got wiped out, muczh to the relief of said orhtodoxy. While today there are the Sufis, their tradition never won back the influence and recognition the earlier mystics had. The Sufis are being seen as very supectible potential heretics, much like the Chinese regime keeps the shaolin heritage under control and runs it for tourist shows, in the main.

Its about the content of these ideologies, then. Muhammad preached conquest, violance, intolerance, racism, he demanded blackmailing and called for and demanded the murdering of his critics and opponents. Brute force and the claim that it is heresy against the will of Allah if one resists to him, were the axes of power he swung. Thus Islam is what it is, and you can find that out yourself if you would care to read into its scriptures, maybe even considering the so-called abrogation principle* when doing that which rules that later statements by the prohet should overrule earlier statements by him that the latter would contradict.

To give Islam a kinder face, you have to actively ignore the message of that ideology'S creator. But you have to distort and violate the message of Buddha or Jesus to give it a violent appearance. Churches, political actors in disguise that they always have been, may have done that in the past, but they betrayed Jesus were they did so. The point is: our ancestors for the most have left these brutal practicings behind, and have forced religion back, to be less tyrannic a force in public life. We pout it in chaisn and rendered its much more powerless, this is where our civilization'S rioghts and liberties, its wealth and scientific knowedlege stem from. In islam, the claim for Islam and Sharia ruling every aspect of human life, run hot, and so its places are still were our ancestors were centuries ago. Before Muhammad, the Arabs were superior in trade, physics, optics, mathematics, medicine, then came Muhammad and in the two centuries followiung the great stagnation started to spread and suffocated every intellectual life that could have been a challange to religous dogma - and it is like this until today, and that si why their countries are so dark and backward and barbaric until today with all their lacking capability and stoneage law. And still they claim they are superior and that the world owes to bow its knees to Islam!? While at the same time they hopelessly depend on the ifnidel world, its tehcnology, knowledge, sciences, medicine, industry...?

But go on, relativise things endlessly like so many others do. Its all relative - and with that knowledge of omnipresent relativity, you can give evry evil a kind face and declare it as innocent and a victim of circumstances, or a victim of intended its victim that had the impudence to resist to it and to fight back.

Heck, just compare what is known about the biography of Muhammad to the biographies of Jesus and Siddharta. No comparison possible, they just do not compare. The first today would be called a warlord and mobster and war criminal, the latter two - well, show me were they lead people to war, called for the destruction of other cultures and intimidated foreigners to submit and to pay proteciton money. Muhammad ordered almost 70 raids and wars during his lifetime, commande dmost of these himself, and also ordered what today would qualify for genocide, and ordered the assassination of critics or people who know his chetaing too well and had to flee for their lives (his secretaries, for example). Comapring Muhammad to Jesus or Buddha is like comapring the progroms of Stalin's secret police to the work of Schweitzer in the African jungle. Relativise that, if you can.

Its not Islam that does enlighten the world, in fact it covers the world with darkness, superstition, illiteracy, intolerance, racism and theocratic dictatorship. It is the Western cultural heritage that has created the wealth, the high standard of civilization, the rights and law culture, the civil liberty, the civil societies of the West that mark the so far climax of human civilizational evolution, second to none - I say that: SECOND TO NONE. We throw that all carelessly away today, yes, but the Islamic world since centuries stucks with its head in the ahole of history, one thousand years deep. The examples of Erdoghan's Turkey, or the nightmarish "Arab spring that was not real", should show everybody how easily the kraken of Islam awakes from what never has been a lasting chnage or self-refomation, but only a temporary winter sleep, and how easily it takes over control over people's mind'S and hearts again. Its not that Erdoghan has run a coup detat to get elected. I have gotten aroudn a bit in the Muslim world, I tell you it is predominantly arch- and even ultra-conservative, even if you well-meaning Westerners with your kind hearts do not want to hear that. What happoens in Turky since Erdoghan for exmaple therefore does not surprise me one bit, nor did the outcome of the Arab Sporing surpise me. It were the to-be-expected results,and I said that since many years.

"It's the ideology, stupid." And this one, Islam's, is written down black on white in the revelation of its claimed highest authority: its deity, what makes it unavailable for human corrections. And yet Westerners weasel around it like performing a dance around eggs, in a bidding to not call it by its wicked names and so wanting to avoid realisation of that they have to confront it over the threat it poses to the world - at least if they do want to defend their most natural, essential freedoms. Which absolutely also means: freedom FROM Islam. Or any kind of totalitarianism and theocracy, btw.

If you are too afraid to defend freedom, you do not deserve it. Afraid you can be, and should be, it may teach you both caution and determination - but you should not allow it to dictate your decisions. But that is what happens, this, and what happens further is the brutal, unscrupulous selfish opportunism of Western decisions makers with extremely short sight, a deficit owed to the mechanisms of modern "democracy". . And the illusions of fairy queen-believers also play into it, who think that if only they mean it well enough in the deepest bottoms of their hearts, things will turn for the better all by themselevs and without needing to fight for their improvement or defence.

Europeans are unable to bear conflicts, their sensible, precious poor minds cannot stand the idea of having to fight (how barbaric, how male...! how stoneage-ish! Better pacify the bad, bad world by attending the CSD and with genderdism studies, and care for planting 1 sqm of rain forest when buying a sixpack of alcohol-free Krombacher!) Uncapable of conflict, and unwilling of conflict. And watching as the things unfold in Europe since many, many years, and how integration gets denied by Muslims on great scale throughout Europe, and local populations reacting increasingly hostile to them in a logical feedback, it takes no rocket scientist to make reasonable projection where this cowardice and incapability will lead Europe too.

The disaster named EU, and Euro, of course tremendously help to detoriate things over here.

[Catfish]

"And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel. And the LORD said unto Moses, 'Take all the heads of the people and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel."

"And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God..."

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;"
"Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people."
"Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword."

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."


But there's also sound and kind advice:
"Thou shalt not boil a kid in its mother’s milk." (Exodus 23:19)

Ah.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

There is one other important difference between Christianity and Islam today. That is lack of more or less fundamentalist proponent for one unified Christian faith. Back when bloodshedding in name of the Christ was in its apex this role was served by the Papacy in Rome which acted both for spritiual and temporal reasons. Ofcourse temporal interests of temporal rules also played their part.

The modern Islamic world has very similar situation except that there are two competeting proponents: the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (Wahhabist Sunni Islam) and the Islamic Republic of Iran (Shia Islam). Just like in the Christian world, especially back in the Middle Ages. these proponets and their allies act both for spiritual and temporal reasons.

I personally don't see much chance for change as long as these two proponents play their little games.

[Von Due]

You are setting the fundamentalists of one religion up against non-fundamentalists of another and the result is absurd.

What strikes me immediately is how Christians almost unanimously interpret the "sword" that Jesus will bring with him as words, or separation etc etc. Then you have those pastors who preach the "sword" is really a heavy machine gun. The Qu'ran is written as a... imagine a bible written as one gigantic poem, with verses.The meter might be off at times but it really is a huge collection of verses, just like a poem of sorts.

As for passages in the Bible, which we can read literally, or symbolically, as we would then read the Qu'ran literally, or symbolically, we can look at
Deuteronomy 17:
2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant,
3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:
5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

Now, we can read this literally, or symbolically but then we have also chosen how to read the Qu'ran. This is precicely where fundamentalism enters the stage, or leaves the stage as is the case for most.

You can not ignore the importance of the difference between fundamentalists and non-fundamentalists.

Yes, according to most, Jesus preached pacifism. Yet, to others it's a matter of holyness to hate the most. Buddhism is to most a pacifist religion/philosophy. Yet, it is being used as a fundament for raising ideas of master races vs subhumans of no value as living beings. Islam is really no different when their book can be read symbolically, or literally. Now the real issue:

What about the Qu'ran's words that jews and christians are "people of the book" that shall be protected and respected?

Should we choose to take that single piece out and say that one piece is meant symbolically but the rest is to be taken literally? Should we say that yes, all muslims take that literally therefor terrorism against jews and christians? Or should we say everything is to be taken symbolically, metaphorically if you like.

None of this makes sense at all unless we reintroduce the religious leaders who will talk their followers into a frenzy when the time is right. Here you also have an answer to the question why Al Quaida declared war on ISIS (how well that went is up for debate), why you have all these rfactions fighting eachother and various Islamic nations while being backed up by other Islamic nations. It is not about the words in the books. It is how the words are interpreted and presented by and to the followers of all these leaders.

PS: Yes, I am playing the devil's advocate here but there is so much wrong with the whole debate here in the west that someone has to take that role. I just don't have any wish to do it every day for the rest of my life.

[Betonov]

Von Due, you're new here, aren't you ??

Just like the pastors, muftis and grand priests of an other radical organizations, some members here also choose to focus on certain, for them more agreable parts of media reports, ideologies or scriptures, while ignoring the rest.

And playing the devils advocate means only those that are not like blinded horses will actually not ignore you.
Some of us tried and failed. Talking to a wall always brings the same result.

[em2nought]

For some reason video (if there is such, I see only commercials) doesn't work for me so I would appreciate if someone could provide summary on content.

It's a bank robbery, but the guard is just a security monitor, his only job is to let people know if there's a robbery. He tells the woman on the floor "Yeah, there's a robbery." The commercial goes on to say why monitor a problem if you don't intend to fix it.

This guy was monitored, or had been in the past, but they didn't follow up at all. They can tap all of "our" phone conversations, but they can't keep track of this guy? My bank alerts them if I take out over $10,000, but they can't track this guy? Hey you know that guy you thought was a terrorist just bought a couple guns and 500 rounds of ammo, just thought you should know. Really have to wonder if it comes down from the top to lay off these guys? It's obvious POtuS tries to go out of his way not to blame them for anything. Oh, no it's the evil NRA and republicans that he blames.

I can't wait til this POtuS leaves, and I sure hope that the wicked witch isn't the next to take his place. :D

[Von Due]

Talking to a wall always brings the same result.

To not quote Tommy Cooper: Humans make terrible walls :)

Nah, one can't shut up just because people stop listening. Sounds silly doesn't it? Like I said, humans make terrible walls and ever so often we find ourselves looking into stuff we never looked into before but if we all keep quiet as soon as people walk away then we might as well pack it up and say "have it your way, guys" and that is really not what we need. Keep yapping and if only one guy listens up and has his or her curiosity peaked then that is totally great!

[Skybird]

"And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel. And the LORD said unto Moses, 'Take all the heads of the people and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel."

"And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God..."

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;"
"Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people."
"Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword."

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."


But there's also sound and kind advice:
"Thou shalt not boil a kid in its mother’s milk." (Exodus 23:19)

Ah.
Going through the four gospels, i cannot find where Jesus nicknamed the Christ have said that. And what there was before - was Judaism. Christian religion is so-to-speak a reformation of Judaism.

The Quran however always was just what would equal the Old Testament in the Bible. It has no reformation chapter like the Glad Tidings. Some argue it is plagiatarism. A cheap copy.

Also, the Quran is not man-made. It is God'S own revelation of his will and word. Christian usually at leats agree that the creation of the Bible was a human endavour, telling about God, but not made by God. Islam'S Quran is God'S own creation. untouchable and unavailable for comment, or criticism. We are just mortals, you see.

Jewish scholars started to collect mouth-to-mouth given transmission of their teahcings from around 500 B.C. on., the five books of Mose which formed the Tora in writing. In the following centuries, before Christ still, more parts of what later would be formign the Old Testasmrent, were colelcted and put down in writing, the pslams for exmaple, and many others. The youngest parts of ther old testament were added around 200 B.C. All this represents human mental evolution and status of knwoedge from almnost 2600 years ago, therefore - and includes only ther written format. The verbal tradition roots back even longer.

You now compare these with Islam, and attemnpt to relativise it by doing so. That works badly against yoiu, for two reasons.

First, you confirm your view that Islam and its scripture compares to a status of things and knowledge that is over 2 and a half millenia old. Well, I do not know about you, but I live in the 21st century - AFTER Christ. While the Islamic world mostkly sytill sticks with a status of 2 and a half millenia ago. I most not do long calculations to find which civilization and which human mindset is more advanced.

Second, the four gospels that form the core of Christ's message, obviously (and there is no Christan message without Christ), obviously were added not before Jesus had lived. Around 70 years after his death, is a common estimation. Jesus represnets a mssive chnage and "reforming" of the pychotic and sadistic tyrant the old testment describes, the god of the old testament and the God that Jesus describes, in principle have nothing in common. There is an evolutional quantum leap, obviously. Christians today mostly define themselves - if they even DO define themselves - on grounds of Christ'S message, they focus on the four gospels, the semron on the mount, and the comments and later stories added after the four gosp0els. The only big exceptions are some ultra-orthdox in the American mountains who still take the old etstament literally and, and the Ten Commandments that until today get quoted, but are not unique in the cnaon of world relgions, the set of m oral rules are pretyt much common sense, often represent natural law, and are beign share din many cultures and relgions (though not in all).

So, Although there has been a huge change in Judaic-Christian ways of definign man'S relation to the one deity, understood as the change that Jesus' appearance made, and this took place centuries after the Tora and later canon of scripture (OT) were collected - another whopping half millenia after Jesus Muhammad still had not gotten it and still stuck to the state of things half a millenia even before Jesus. He surely did not like experiments, did he. He was a already a thousand years old when he was born.

So what you do, Catfish, is comparing the understanding and world view of two groups of people that are set apart by a gap of ages. We in the West have advanced centuries beyond the state of things you fall back to in your quotes, millenia. Islam still sticks to those old conditions of ancient times, and views on things from back then. It still has its head stuck deep in the ahole of history, over one millenia deep - that may be rude, but it is the most matching description I have ever heard of it. You know what it is like that deep in there. Dark.

And you want to imply "us" and "them", the modern Wetsern world and the backwardly Islamic world, compare to each other, and we meet on same eye level? No, we don't meet on same eye level, it is an offence to ourselves if we accept to meet them on same eyx elevel, becasue we are so much more advanced in moral and mental evolution and evolution of civil liberty, and legal rights. we hand all that away, yes, but that is another stpory... And that is illustrated by how tremendously superior Western civilization has become in skill, knowledge, capability, human self-understanding and realsijng our minor sttaus in the universe. We may not always have used this in a wise and friendly manner, and we still see the old barbarism on ancient times popping up where we allow the ancient tyranny of religious fanatism flaming up again. Give relgion, even the churches, a single fginger, and rips off your whole arm and then demands more. But all in all we are centuries, many, many centuries more advanced than Islam's view on and claim for the world.

Have you heard the story of that Dutch girl that was raped in Quatar and was sentenced for illegal sex before marriage? Just one of so many stories illustrating how perverse thigns run in many of these palces. Not by exception from the rules but by official, legal standards, with many people, the majority of people supoportiung that. The young woman was allowed to leave the country, they did not want to stress diplomatic relations before their staged coup with the sports event has taken. If you are bored, you can find out what would have been her penalty if she were a Quatari woman. Its not pleasant, I found. Lesson from the sotry: donÄT get raped in coutnries like this - you find yourself in even bigger troubles afterwards. Becasue that is what teh law wants.

Get some injections and get back to your senses, all you relativisers out there. The world can very well ruin itself all by itself for while, while you take a break from enthusiastically assisting it.

[Oberon]

Genuine question, for I don't understand this kind of behavior at all.
What is your motivation, I wonder? How do you convince yourself that Islam is totally dandy, while news from all over the world contradict you?

Because I refuse to believe that a quarter of the worlds population are radical extremists? That 1.7 billion people are primed and ready to kill me just because I'm a filthy westerner infidel™.
I don't buy into the narrative that some people like to put out that we are at war against Islam, that is to say we are at war against the whole of the Islamic religion and all those who practice it. That we should automatically and instinctive segregate and treat Muslims differently because of the actions of people who are beyond the average followers ability to control.
It's a narrative that people on both sides of the divide love to enforce because it makes these actions easier for people to accept, it makes radical actions easier to digest, and so we slide step by step into the mire whilst grappling together for eternity.

This is why I make the difference between Islam and Radical Islam, between a Muslim and a Terrorist, because I don't want to stoop to the levels of those who walk into a gay nightclub and kill 49 people.

[Oberon]

To not quote Tommy Cooper: Humans make terrible walls :)

Nah, one can't shut up just because people stop listening. Sounds silly doesn't it? Like I said, humans make terrible walls and ever so often we find ourselves looking into stuff we never looked into before but if we all keep quiet as soon as people walk away then we might as well pack it up and say "have it your way, guys" and that is really not what we need. Keep yapping and if only one guy listens up and has his or her curiosity peaked then that is totally great!

You poor bugger, well...good luck. Prepare to be called naive, foolish, delusional and everything else because of it. :yep:
Truth be told though, most of the sides in this thread made their minds up a loooooong time ago, and I doubt very very very much that they will ever change their point of view.

[Von Due]

You poor bugger, well...good luck. Prepare to be called naive, foolish, delusional and everything else because of it. :yep:
Truth be told though, most of the sides in this thread made their minds up a loooooong time ago, and I doubt very very very much that they will ever change their point of view.

Forever is a very long time and if humans couldn't change their minds we would still worship clay statues of women.

I'm not holding my breath though and by that I really mean it, nor hoping nor stop yapping on about it :haha: and there are very few surprises left, I think, about what people call me. I've been called many a things, a communist nazi (really), ungodly, deeply religious, short, tall, fat, slim etc

[Tchocky]

You poor bugger, well...good luck. Prepare to be called naive, foolish, delusional and everything else because of it. :yep:
Truth be told though, most of the sides in this thread made their minds up a loooooong time ago, and I doubt very very very much that they will ever change their point of view.


Actually I was wondering how this would go - a gay man attacks a LGBT club and professes to be inspired by radical Islam.


It hits all the boxes for some users here.

[Rockstar]

Because I refuse to believe that a quarter of the worlds population are radical extremists? That 1.7 billion people are primed and ready to kill me just because I'm a filthy westerner infidel™.
I don't buy into the narrative that some people like to put out that we are at war against Islam, that is to say we are at war against the whole of the Islamic religion and all those who practice it. That we should automatically and instinctive segregate and treat Muslims differently because of the actions of people who are beyond the average followers ability to control.
It's a narrative that people on both sides of the divide love to enforce because it makes these actions easier for people to accept, it makes radical actions easier to digest, and so we slide step by step into the mire whilst grappling together for eternity.

This is why I make the difference between Islam and Radical Islam, between a Muslim and a Terrorist, because I don't want to stoop to the levels of those who walk into a gay nightclub and kill 49 people.

I agree I dont think for an instant that all 1.7 billion muslims are radical extemists but then there are soldiers who fight and civilians who read about it in every war. But dont forget too this is a religion, what is being carried out by the soldiers can according to their own teachings be construed as pointing towards a minor end time prophecy. This I think will only lead to more jumping on the bandwagon of extremism and as well as the silent approval by others.

[Skybird]

We slowly approach the climax of the show where somebody will show up in TV and say that the terrorist was gay himself, could not bear it, turned from auto-aggressive to projecting his self-hate onto others (hating him), and decided to take revenge. By the pricking of my thumbs, I could swear that this one comes.

[Von Due]

As for LGTB and Islam, there's an article on BBC's webpages that is an interesting read.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36388507

While it does bring the risk of execution, there is a parallell approach that pushes gender change as a "solution". Another thing I noticed was, here was a mother, deeply religious and still she accepted her daugher's partner living in their house despite hating it. No call to the coppers from her unlike for an Iraqi fellow who was on the run from his family with a death threat on his head.

No surprise really, how individuals have well... individual views on how to deal with it.

[Skybird]

I agree I dont think for an instant that all 1.7 billion muslims are radical extemists but then there are soldiers who fight and civilians who read about it in every war. And dont forget this is also a religion, what is being carried out by the soldiers can according to their own teachings be pointing towards a minor end time prophecy. This I think will only lead to more jumping on the bandwagon of extremism and the silent approval by others.
Yes. For the x-thousandth time: its about the ideology, and how it motivates mankind. The biggest part of mankind is driven by ideology of various kind.

Not all Germans strangle even a single Jew, but holocaust was commited - in Germany. Not all Germans knew it or would have willed it, but it happened nevertheless. In Germany. Many Germans were well-educated, but still Nazism was present in Germany. Some Germans took great risks to help fleeing Jews, but in germany, the Nazis still ruled. After the war, many Germans did not believe about the KZs, but the KZ'S existed: in Germany and German-occupied territories. Not in some place but in Germany. Many people meant it well when starting to believe for Nazi ideology, but in its name came war and terror, from Germany. Some German until today deny the responsibility of Nazism and deny that Germany did somethignm bad- but iut was coming from Germany, and already was an finsihed ideology 20 years before Hitler even came to power.

Most Germans probbaly never were convinced Nazis. But Nazism was a reality in Germany, and dominated the place. Even thouigh most Germans probbaly did not actively willed it, followed it, engaged in it.

Does the claim that WWII and Nazism are no problems just related to Germany, make any sense? Hardly.

Okay, not all was Germany. Austria also had some hand in it. :smug:

Summary of it all, for the x-thousand-and-oneth time: its about the ideology, and how motivation comes from ideology.

[Tchocky]

Considering the gunman swore allegiance to mutually opposing extremist groups (some of whom are actually at war with each other) - I don't think it's all about ideology.

[Von Due]

Considering the gunman swore allegiance to mutually opposing extremist groups (some of whom are actually at war with each other) - I don't think it's all about ideology.

Considering how some of the newborn fanatics who wanted to leave England for Syria, to fight for ISIS with the
Q'uran For Dummies and Islam For Dummies (http://www.newstatesman.com/religion/2014/08/what-jihadists-who-bought-islam-dummies-amazon-tell-us-about-radicalisation) in their bags, I'm inclined to think it's all about idiocy.

[Oberon]

I agree I dont think for an instant that all 1.7 billion muslims are radical extemists but then there are soldiers who fight and civilians who read about it in every war. But dont forget too this is a religion, what is being carried out by the soldiers can according to their own teachings be construed as pointing towards a minor end time prophecy. This I think will only lead to more jumping on the bandwagon of extremism and as well as the silent approval by others.

Oh, End Time Prophecies are a big thing in the world, you've only got to look at the whole Third Temple thing, and how many people in the western world think that it's their duty to begin the end times so that the final battle against the forces of Lucifer can take place and paradise return to Earth, or variations on that theme. Judgement Day and all that but with less Ahnold.
It's big stuff, heck, some pretty powerful people in the US believe in it, so it makes you wonder about some of the US's more questionable decisions. :doh:

Either which way, I'd like to believe that the average Islamic believer just wants to get through the day like the rest of us.

[Schroeder]

Because I refuse to believe that a quarter of the worlds population are radical extremists? That 1.7 billion people are primed and ready to kill me just because I'm a filthy westerner infidel™.
No, they don't. But the ideology they claim to follow would be happy about it. Do I have to dig out the Nazi comparison again? Not every member of the NSDAP was evil or wanted to kill someone but the party they were members of did. Who denies that Nazism was/is evil? But when it comes to Islam which in my belief has very similar goals and mindsets everybody is getting defensive. When I say Islam is evil I'm not talking about each and every individual who calls himself a Muslim but about the ideology they follow and that ideology of hate, violence, suppression and intolerance mustn't be given influence here in the West just as much as we need to keep Nazism down for we know what happens when we don't.:dead:

[August]

Considering the gunman swore allegiance to mutually opposing extremist groups (some of whom are actually at war with each other) - I don't think it's all about ideology.

Assuming that they fit our preconceived notions of ideology. He and they might not have felt that it was a conflict of interest at all to support more than one Jihadi group.

[Oberon]

No, they don't. But the ideology they claim to follow would be happy about it. Do I have to dig out the Nazi comparison again? Not every member of the NSDAP was evil or wanted to kill someone but the party they were members of did. Who denies that Nazism was/is evil? But when it comes to Islam which in my belief has very similar goals and mindsets everybody is getting defensive. When I say Islam is evil I'm not talking about each and every individual who calls himself a Muslim but about the ideology they follow and that ideology of hate, violence, suppression and intolerance mustn't be given influence here in the West just as much as we need to keep Nazism down for we know what happens when we don't.:dead:

That's fair enough, but how do you deal with it without focusing and persecuting all of the followers of it? When we went to war with Nazism, we bombed the source of it, and killed thousands of Germans whether they were Nazis or not. How do you fight the ideology of Islam without going to war with 1.7 billion people? :hmmm:

[Schroeder]

How do you fight the ideology of Islam without going to war with 1.7 billion people? :hmmm:
That's the million dollar question. However I don't see the need to go to a hot war with them (yet). All I want is to keep the influence of Islam away from me and my country or at the very least at a minimum, just as much as I want all totalitarian dogmatic ideologies to stay away from me.
I don't have a magical solution that would be fair for everybody. But in my opinion we have the choice of doing something about Islam or be "fair" and becoming it's victim more and more often. And that's not just terror but all the problems that badly integrated parallel societies bring.:/\\!!

[Betonov]

Of course islam is evil, it's a religion.

It's the mentality that it has a monopoly on being evil that I can't stand.
And that my local burek baker is going to behead me one day when I pick up lunch just because he's a muslim.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

@Oberon, I won't stick my spoon into this soup other than throwing in some spices.

There are followers and then there are "followers". Former which I would call "true followers" actually practice their religion and follow its teachings. Latter ones are more like "habitual followers" who do as they please and observe what they please.

I personally fit into latter category. I'm officially member of Evangelical Lutheran church but in reality I'm agnostic at best. I don't pray or read the Bible. I visit church occasionally for habitual reasons but hardly ever pay much attention to priest's sermon.

Most people I know represent some flavour of habitual spirituality and I dare to suppose that many Muslims aren't any different.

[Oberon]

That's the million dollar question. However I don't see the need to go to a hot war with them (yet). All I want is to keep the influence of Islam away from me and my country or at the very least at a minimum, just as much as I want all totalitarian dogmatic ideologies to stay away from me.
I don't have a magical solution that would be fair for everybody. But in my opinion we have the choice of doing something about Islam or be "fair" and becoming it's victim more and more often. And that's not just terror but all the problems that badly integrated parallel societies bring.:/\\!!

I would say that I understand but I cannot fully understand, perhaps this is why I think the way I do, or perhaps it's just because of my working class socialist leanings. I think ultimately the problem lies in trying not to offend everyone and at the same time letting bad practices slip past.
In my eyes, the law should be applied equally to all, regardless of religion, sex or age (with perhaps the exception of the very very young, but irregardless there should still be some sort of punishment as a deterrance).
Whether this person is a white neo-nazi or a muslim kid from Uzbekistan, if they break the law they should face the statutory punishment as decided by the state. Deportation is also an option if the person involved constantly refuses to obey the law of the nation they are seeking access into.
If a Muslim wants to build a Mosque in the city, fear enough, so long as it doesn't violate building codes or cause a public nuisance, for example, calling to prayer at 2am is a no-no. Not that I believe that there are calls to prayer at 2am, except perhaps in Ramadan, I don't know. :hmmm:
It's important to be welcoming but not docile, firm but not fanatically against, and I don't think any country in the EU has found that balance yet. Germany is too docile and will have a massive and painful backlash in the near future because of it, Poland and Hungary are too firm, too unwelcoming which means that any Muslims who do wind up there are more likely to turn to extremism because of that sense of being in a place where no-one wants you except your own kind, and that kind of sentiment makes it easy for recruiters to begin worming their way into peoples minds, especially those in their teens or early twenties who are traditionally outcasts of society anyway.

[Oberon]

Of course islam is evil, it's a religion.

It's the mentality that it has a monopoly on being evil that I can't stand.
And that my local burek baker is going to behead me one day when I pick up lunch just because he's a muslim.

Only if you try to give him fake currency. :O:

@Oberon, I won't stick my spoon into this soup other than throwing in some spices.

There are followers and then there are "followers". Former which I would call "true followers" actually practice their religion and follow its teachings. Latter ones are more like "habitual followers" who do as they please and observe what they please.

I personally fit into latter category. I'm officially member of Evangelical Lutheran church but in reality I'm agnostic at best. I don't pray or read the Bible. I visit church occasionally for habitual reasons but hardly ever pay much attention to priest's sermon.

Most people I know represent some flavour of habitual spirituality and I dare to suppose that many Muslims aren't any different.

I understand, I think that a good number of Muslims are indeed habitual followers, those like the Pakistani that runs the local corner shop, or Betonovs baker. Often enough the hardcore followers would likely look down on them as not being Muslim enough, which I guess puts them in a bit of a black hole as far as western society goes, they're Muslim so non-Muslims will lump them in with the fanatical Muslims but the fanatical Muslims don't like them either. Rock and a Hajj place, perhaps (Sorry).

[Betonov]

Only if you try to give him fake currency. :O:



He's Albanian. Probably came from his printing shop.

[Catfish]

Von Due posted this, and before it gets buried in the flood:

http://www.newstatesman.com/religion/2014/08/what-jihadists-who-bought-islam-dummies-amazon-tell-us-about-radicalisation

" ... Berks, not martyrs. “Pathetic figures”, to quote the former MI6 chief Richard Dearlove, not holy warriors. If we want to tackle jihadism, we need to stop exaggerating the threat these young men pose and giving them the oxygen of publicity they crave, and start highlighting how so many of them lead decidedly un-Islamic lives. ..."

Well. worth. reading.

[Nippelspanner]

Because I refuse to believe that a quarter of the worlds population are radical extremists? That 1.7 billion people are primed and ready to kill me just because I'm a filthy westerner infidel™.
So, a muslim who thinks the Sharia should rule is... not radical?
Because over 1 billion muslims do think the Sharia should rule.

[Mittelwaechter]

So a western value believer - an ex-true-christian maybe - who thinks the free market economy religion - cormorant and misanthropic exploiting - should rule is... not radical?
Just because their kin do think the free market, the western money system, the secular state running a faked democracy - who has overthrown the traditional christian religion by deconsecration and media - shall rule.

How about withdrawal of our troops from their homeland? Do you see a muslim army on our western soil? Our allied troops cause carnage in their homes and these people have to try to reach safety here with us. And with this stream of despair, those who try to fight back our troops infiltrate our homeland and pay back our generous offer to bloodily liberate and 'democratize' their people.

Syria for example: we sanction Syria for years, just to destabilize the Syrian society and 'encourage' the people to overturn their president, who simply denies a gas pipeline through Syria to support Putin. Thousands have to die for our greedy and perfidious efforts to bypass the Russian pipelines.

How radical is this? And our media priests - in their heritage of our cleric priests - dictate us what to believe, what to support, what to attack, what to kill - just like their predecessors did. But now they are controlled by corporations - they are corporations - the flowers of our economic system.
Our economic system is a religion and we justify any aggressive action against dissenters. They are heretics, misguided, witches - and we burn them in hellfire.

They are free to accept our dominion and it's all their own fault that our heroic allied troops have to fight, kill and die in their countries. They could peacefully resign and simply give us what we want. Christianization and colonization in a modern robe.

Don't know what you want of them, but our true leaders want their resources, cheap labour, spending power, their soldiers - and they want to borrow money at interest...


... Ah shucks! Why do I even try?

[eddie]

I don't see this killer as a radical terrorist, he was a nutjob who happened to be gay! He had been going to that club for several years, and not to plan his attack. He was there partying, drinking and dancing with other gay men. He had put his picture up on dating sites for gay men. How does this make him a radical terrorist? His reasons for the murders are about as clear as the guy who killed all those people at the theater in Colorado, nothing to do with ISIS either. Why would he swear his loyalty to ISIS, because if he was in the area controlled by them, and they found out he was gay, they would deal with him like they do with anyone they find out that they are gay. They would take him to the top of a building and throw him off, just to see his brains splatter on the street! They execute gays. That BS Mateen put out about his loyalty to ISIS was just a smoke screen to throw everyone off of the fact, he was gay, and a nutjob, nothing more!

http://abcnews.go.com/US/witnesses-orlando-shooter-regular-gay-clubs/story?id=39839464

[Oberon]

So, a muslim who thinks the Sharia should rule is... not radical?
Because over 1 billion muslims do think the Sharia should rule.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bD0gt8dhFDQ/V1CocyP1evI/AAAAAAAAAkg/bc9-A7Wo7rkITQSqsUOmAPqYiHVSoMkqQCLcB/s1600/xkcd-citation_needed.png

This makes for interesting reading:
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/12/07/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

[Nippelspanner]

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bD0gt8dhFDQ/V1CocyP1evI/AAAAAAAAAkg/bc9-A7Wo7rkITQSqsUOmAPqYiHVSoMkqQCLcB/s1600/xkcd-citation_needed.png


Yeah well Oberon we tried this before, haven't we?
I remember very well how I indeed delivered multiple sources and asked very specific yes/no questions - but you refused to answer and backed out of the debate completely because you had nothing to prove me wrong and were too proud to admit it.

I won't waste my time again.

Furthermore, I won't debate this topic at all anymore, it is pointless, always was. Let's rather just continue our stupid course of non-action, as we can see, Europe is totally fine and all the Allahu akbar shouting freaks who cut our throats or blow us up have - thank God - nothing to do with Islam.

At least we die politically correct. :yep:

[Oberon]

Yeah well Oberon we tried this before, haven't we?
I remember very well how I indeed delivered multiple sources and asked very specific yes/no questions - but you refused to answer and backed out of the debate completely because you had nothing to prove me wrong and were too proud to admit it.

I won't waste my time again.

Furthermore, I won't debate this topic at all anymore, it is pointless, always was. Let's rather just continue our stupid course of non-action, as we can see, Europe is totally fine and all the Allahu akbar shouting freaks who cut our throats or blow us up have - thank God - nothing to do with Islam.

At least we die politically correct. :yep:

Fair enough. I'd rather die politically correct than wrestling in the dirt at the same level as the radicals anyway.

Allahu Ackbar indeed. :sunny:

[Nippelspanner]

If self-preservation is "low level", gladly.

[Oberon]

If self-preservation is "low level", gladly.

Depends on the cost, must we become that which we fight against? Is it really necessary to act in the manner in which the extremists propaganda machine displays us acting in? Do we really have to play their game by their rules?

[Nippelspanner]

Depends on the cost, must we become that which we fight against? Is it really necessary to act in the manner in which the extremists propaganda machine displays us acting in? Do we really have to play their game by their rules?
10/10, Oberon, 10/10. :roll:

/unsubbed

[Betonov]

Or hide in our basements, not seeing the world, not enjoying life, not having a good night sleep because the talking heads tell us we should fear the brown man.
No thanks. My grandfather gave the middle finger to the wehrmacht, my father to the yugoslav army and I'm flipping it to the islamists.

I'm not going to be the first coward in the family and if I die so be it. We all do in the end. It's the quality of life until then that matters.

[Oberon]

Ah well, at least this may serve as a warning to the poor souls like Von Due. :salute:

[Dowly]

http://i.imgur.com/tEQYPvl.jpg

[Von Due]

Ah well, at least this may serve as a warning to the poor souls like Von Due. :salute:

Warning? Nah. It's nothing new but at least anyone reading this thread gets more than the one and only side you will get from conservative news outlets, from ultra conservative news outlets. from fundamentalist news outlets ,so for linking up sources and facts for readers here to read, the more the merrier.

[August]

Depends on the cost, must we become that which we fight against?

When we start burning caged prisoners alive and stoning women to death for being raped then we'll have to worry about becoming like them but we're no where near that yet.

[Betonov]

This would be a nice solution

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bguTeCAPZSk

One of their own throwing fire and brimstone and shaming his own for the mess.
That's the only way really, I'll have to agree with Sky, but only islam can fix islam. Anything we might do will only be used as propaganda.

[Von Due]

This would be a nice solution

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bguTeCAPZSk

One of their own throwing fire and brimstone and shaming his own for the mess.
That's the only way really, I'll have to agree with Sky, but only islam can fix islam. Anything we might do will only be used as propaganda.

^That.

with the addition: We can also do something. We can present and promote these views and their advocates, to people who are utterly unaware that the views presented in that speech are also present in the Muslim communities.

Or we can choose not to mention it to anyone and discourage people from looking, and pretend those ideas don't exist in the Muslim communities.

The last option is really a terrible one. Really, it is.

[Schroeder]

Do we really have to play their game by their rules?
We're not playing their game, we're not playing at all and are just watching as things around us happen.
There is a saying over here which goes: "The smarter one backs down (in an argument)." The problem is it should go: The smarter one backs down (from an argument) for so long until he's the dumber one." I think our apathy and unwillingness to do something will cost us dearly.

[Oberon]

We're not playing their game, we're not playing at all and are just watching as things around us happen.
There is a saying over here which goes: "The smarter one backs down (in an argument)." The problem is it should go: The smarter one backs down (from an argument) for so long until he's the dumber one." I think our apathy and unwillingness to do something will cost us dearly.

The trouble is, there is a paralysis to act because as a society we cannot really make up our minds where the blame for the problem lies, whether it is on ourselves for being too lenient, or on the individual for being too criminal.
With freedom of speech do we allow the preaching of violence against homosexuality, or do we focus on punishing those who act on that preaching by conducting violence against homosexuality? How far do we go to address the problem of extremism and how big of a risk is there in creating more extremism by attempting to stop it?
It really isn't as simple as some people make it out to be.

And yes, I'm aware that we don't set fire to people in cages, thank God, and my focus is to make sure that we never find ourselves in a position where we deem it acceptable to do so. Which is why I am so concerned about the use of language by prominant members of society and politicians that only seeks to exacerbate the 'Us vs them' mentality of the public when regarding Muslims by slowly turning them from a flesh and blood entity into a derogative term. By constantly telling the public that Islam is a threat and the followers of Islam are a threat then it makes it easier to the public mind to permit what would ordinarily be intolerable actions to take place against these people. It creates a cultural prejudice which seeks to alienate and isolate Muslims in society, and it plays straight into the hands of the people that we actually should be fighting.
We know that the likes of Daesh, Al'Qaeda, Al-Shabab, and Boko Haram, to name but a few, operate on the propaganda that the west is not only decadent but also seeking to destroy Islam, in their eyes it is a war of defence rather than offence. It's a lot easier to sell to people a defensive war than an offensive one after all. They focus on the civilian casualties that our operations cause and downplay the damage to their organisation, it's no different to the sort of propaganda that western powers put out during the First World War, remember that American poster (based on an earlier British one) with the King Kong wearing a Pickelhaube? 'Destroy this mad brute', indeed.
That is the art of offensive war propaganda, to devolve your target from a human being into an entity which is vile and terrible and thus easy for the populace to accept the destruction of. I could Godwin this thread (some more) by bringing in other examples of offensive propaganda, but I think we've all been through this before so I won't, but hopefully you get the idea of what I'm trying to put across.
So when people in the western world, the people who the radical Muslims in the Middle East are telling their people are trying to destroy Islam, say that we are in a war against Islam, it only reinforces the propaganda of the likes of Daesh, it plays directly into their hands and helps boost their recruiting power in our own lands. When we look upon all Muslims with fear and suspicion because we have downgraded them from human beings into enemy combatants then they will feel that they are enemy combatants and thus be open for conversion into exactly that.

That is the kind of thing that I hope for society to avoid, but I hold out little hope of it actually avoiding.

I'm probably urinating into the wind, and no doubt will just be dismissed as another 'gutmenschen', or a hopeless liberal, but that's what I believe.

[Skybird]

I once knew a patient who repeatedly had hurt himself or suffered accidents of various kinds, because he was unable to realise the difference between the meaning of the words "left" and "right". He could not differentiate the concept of "two sides, two directions". When you told him "left!" or "right", he randomly decided for any directon. It was unclear why this was so, he had an IQ of around 90, and was not further diagnosed with any problems and mental/intellectual deficits. Very strange, and a mystery.

So he randomly decided for either side, no matter which information ("watch out left!" "Not the right door!") he received in some situations of ordinary daily life. Sometimes that had physical consequences. :)

Debates about Islam and its ideology sometimes remind me of this. Or better: some of the people talking. They too think that what "Muslim" means and is, can be arbitrarily defined as they see opportune, and that the fundament of the ideology, the scripture, means nothing. They just don't get it. They do not want to get it, for it messes up their kind world view.

The accident caused by this will be more than just some minor physical injuries like that patient sometimes suffered.

[eddie]

After what happened in Orlando, Newt Gingrich wants to bring back the House Un-American Activities Committee!! Way to go Newt!! I mean it worked so well the first time around, ask the people who faced McCarthy!!:haha:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/14/politics/newt-gingrich-house-un-american-activities-committee/index.html

[Mittelwaechter]

And yes, I'm aware that we don't set fire to people in cages, thank God, ...

We freeze them!

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/0006555318.pdf

Link to the CIA.

[Von Due]

We freeze them!

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/0006555318.pdf

Link to the CIA.

That link is a no workey for me.

Prisoners in the US on terrorism charges, they get to go to exotic locations on vacation, all expences covered, they aren't pestered by paparazzis all the time while they're there either. Best of all, you don't even have to be a terrorist, or a captured fighter. No need to go through all the hassle of abandoning your faith to go on a murder rampage. Say you've been to Mecca once and you just won yourself years of relaxation in the Carribean. They get to enjoy waterboarding, that's surfing, right, the ocean, a board, sunny California, big waves, right, all paid for by the Govt, right?

(if that doesn't sound like an insane paragraph to you then I am seriously worried)

The problem I have here is the constant attempts from some to link, or quietly insinuate a link between, Muslims in general to Muslims who join terrorist groups, groups that mullahs have declared to be devil worshippers.

It's like saying all Catholics are gangsters because Italians are Catholics and you can prove that the american mafia has its roots in Italy. Mexican drug cartelles pray and pray while they gun down priests and students and just about anything that still moves. See how the Catholic gangster culture is spreading and getting worse? We need a war against the Vatican then...

...or we could try to return to our senses and see that no, being a Catholic does not turn you into a Mexican drug lord, nor does being a Muslim turn you into a bloodthirsty savage with only burning and beheadings of infidels on your mind.

We are quick to come forward and say "well, no true Catholic would do such a thing" and many are equally quick to come forward and say "all true muslims would do such a thing"...

No. Just no. That link people make has to go.

[Mittelwaechter]

Many people can't differentiate, have a simple view at the world and tend to stereotype thinking (pigeonholing). Most don't even know one single muslim, but have learned per media and friends of friends that they are all dangerous and aggressive and want to destroy our lifestyle.

I do agree they are all potential terrorists. Just the way we are.

And there is this phenomenon of selective perception.
I think my neighbour doesn't like me. So when she passes me on the other side of the street without greeting me, I feel my suspicion is confirmed. This intensifies everytime I meet her and she doesn't act up to my expectations. And even if she does, I assume she just tries to delude me.

"She's this type of neighbour you know, who is pretending to respect me, but in reality I guess she's planning to kill me! She's from Bulgaria and I recently learned, all the other Bulgarians here are quite the same!"

It goes the other way round too. I buy a green VW Golf - and suddenly I recognize these green Golfs in the dozen along my daily trip to work and back.

The muslim religion is as good a ours. It just depends on the person what he/she makes out of it. Kill my wife and children and I will come for you, no matter what religion I follow.

These priests abusing kids are Christian, right? So all Christians are abusing kids? Do they learn it from their priests? Reading the next article in the news about child abuse, I may get this impression.

[Von Due]

Reading the next article in the news...

We have a right/far right govt at the moment and our Minister of Imigration went out as a deranged town cryer, saying

"Fear, panic, anyone who isn't a quivering puddle of dissolved nerves does not love this country" and every major newspaper here gave her the whole front page. Ok, so some gave her the front page and asked if it wasn't time for our mental health care system to kick into gear and do its job with that woman but mostly they cried out in merry unison "fear for your lives!"...

There is definitely an issue with information going on here.

Another story here was some then unknown people set fire to a house with a refugee family inside, then a reassigned hotel filled with immigrants, many of them lone traveling children. The attacks caused an outcry but also cheering coming from good, loving, decent hard working people, as they were called in the papers. One of those who cheered got invited to a dinner party the refugees and management organized. He came there, looked around, talked with people, left the party when it was over and told the journalists he was sick to his stomach with the attacks. A few papers gave us a small feelgood story and moved on.

There is absolutely, positively, indeniably, an issue with information going on here.

[Mittelwaechter]

Information is provided to keep you in formation. All recipients shall have the same direction to follow and all shall see, read and hear, what they shall see, read and hear.

Whoever controls our perception controls our reality - and therefore our motivation to act - to ignore, to tolerate, to accept, to buy, to condemn, to attack, to kill.
We are especially receptive to propaganda after having learned we are not exposed to it. Every Russian knows he is a victim to media manipulation. We are convinced to trust our media.

So we follow the prethought direction, we listen to the provided concepts and learn to understand them as our point of view. Our own opinion is offered, tolerated and repeated 'in formation' we have learned voluntarily. It ensures the opinion of the rulers becomes the public opinion - and so they get the general conditions they are after.

These days it is important to devide the society. Don't let them gather and solidarise, they may overcome the system. So keep them apart and emphasize all kind of contrarieties: Male vs. Female, Black vs. White, Reps vs. Democrats, Christians vs. Muslims, Young vs. Old, Abortion Supporters vs. Adversaries, Gun Owners vs. Proponents of more Gun Control ... Watch it! Gender discussions, Vegetarians, Virginity (for Purity, Honour and Worth), Brexit or Not?, Tax Money for the Poor? Health Care, Terrorists, War on Whatever, Refugees ... Endless discussions without solutions - just to keep us busy and incited - and apart!

[Von Due]

Information is provided to keep you in formation

I'm tempted to steal that quote.

Everything in your post is true. Divide and conquer. We can even say it's the circus as in bread and circus for the people.

[Mittelwaechter]

I'm tempted to steal that quote.

When a thing has been said and well said, have no scruple: take it and copy it! (Anatole France)

You may want to add 'provided by the media to' ... for general use.


Edit: It gets better and better!
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/15/a-twitter-bot-is-beating-trump-fans.html
People having discussions with bots. ;) Keep 'em busy!

[u crank]

Edit: It gets better and better!
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/15/a-twitter-bot-is-beating-trump-fans.html
People having discussions with bots. ;) Keep 'em busy!

Now that is funny. :yep:

[Onkel Neal]

Ok, UK, so it's your turn now?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/16/mp-jo-cox-fights-for-life-after-brazen-attack-on-british-street.html

An eyewitness to the attack on Jo Cox, who was an MP of the left-wing Labour Party, claimed her attacker was shouting “Britain first!” as he kicked, stabbed and then fatally shot her.

Cox, 41, who had two young children, was a passionate immigration campaigner and an outspoken supporter of voting to remain in the European Union in next week’s referendum.

Man, this guy covered all the bases.:dead:

[Oberon]

Ok, UK, so it's your turn now?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/16/mp-jo-cox-fights-for-life-after-brazen-attack-on-british-street.html



Man, this guy covered all the bases.:dead:

Aye, first politician to get killed by a non-Irish person in 204 years, and the first one to be killed full stop in 16 years.
Looks to be a mentally unstable chap who ate more referendum than he could digest. Horrific stuff really, and there'll be a lot of questions asked about how it was allowed to happen and how it did happen.
A sad day for the UK.

[Von Due]

Edited out because I didn't properly check the sources

[Mittelwaechter]

Aye, first politician to get killed by a non-Irish person in 204 years, and the first one to be killed full stop in 16 years.
Looks to be a mentally unstable chap who ate more referendum than he could digest. Horrific stuff really, and there'll be a lot of questions asked about how it was allowed to happen and how it did happen.
A sad day for the UK.

Imagine our media coverage, the victim would have been a Russian opposition member, killed on a bridge in Moscow.

I guess Cameron isn't somehow connected to this lonely, menatlly unstable chap, right? Is the guy Christian?

[Von Due]

Can someone fill me in here? Either I'm not getting the obvious or they have gone full on insane.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36563337

It's ok to allow people on terrorist watch lists to buy guns without having to at least notify the authorities? How does that add up? They WANT these things to happen or what? Someone fill me in on what it is I'm not getting.

[Dowly]

Can someone fill me in here? Either I'm not getting the obvious or they have gone full on insane.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36563337

It's ok to allow people on terrorist watch lists to buy guns without having to at least notify the authorities? How does that add up? They WANT these things to happen or what? Someone fill me in on what it is I'm not getting.Because then every citizen would be put on the list, so the Feds could take away their guns. Somehow the UN is also involved and a couple of Jewish dentists too.

Have you been living under a rock or something? :doh:

[Von Due]

Because then every citizen would be put on the list, so the Feds could take away their guns. Somehow the UN is also involved and a couple of Jewish dentists too.

Have you been living under a rock or something? :doh:

That is the arguement but seriously, it is hard to imagine how people can actually believe it to be a sensible arguement. It's like they don't consider consequences to be part of reality.

How can they on one hand say they're fighting terrorism while saying hey, we have good reasons to think you plan on attacking somewhere but here's your gun and don't worry, the feds won't know about it? The absurdity is mindboggling.

[August]

Can someone fill me in here? Either I'm not getting the obvious or they have gone full on insane.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36563337

It's ok to allow people on terrorist watch lists to buy guns without having to at least notify the authorities? How does that add up? They WANT these things to happen or what? Someone fill me in on what it is I'm not getting.

It's called Due Process.

Basically it means that you can't just take rights away from people, especially ones enumerated in the Constitution, without allowing them some form or means of redress in the courts if it was applied in error (or spite). The Democrats refuse to allow that corrective ability in this situation and the Republicans can't add it in without their support.

Remember the Terrorist Watch List is a secret list of names maintained by anonymous bureaucrats who can't be held accountable for their actions. Once a person is added to the list, even by mistake, whether its a clerical error or any other reason (including spite), there is currently no way for the victim to even find out they have been added, why they were added or who put them on it. They can't even petition the courts to their names removed from it.

What's just as bad at that is none of the proposed legislation would have stopped the Orlando terrorist as he had already been removed from the Watch list. In other words they're trying to do something they already know wouldn't work. Makes you wonder the true reasons for proposing it.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

It's called Due Process.

Basically it means that you can't just take rights away from people, especially ones enumerated in the Constitution, without allowing them some form or means of redress in the courts if it was applied in error (or spite). The Democrats refuse to allow that corrective ability in this situation and the Republicans can't add it in without their support.

Remember the Terrorist Watch List is a secret list of names maintained by anonymous bureaucrats who can't be held accountable for their actions. Once a person is added to the list, even by mistake, whether its a clerical error or any other reason (including spite), there is currently no way for the victim to even find out they have been added, why they were added or who put them on it. They can't even petition the courts to their names removed from it.

What's just as bad at that is none of the proposed legislation would have stopped the Orlando terrorist as he had already been removed from the Watch list. In other words they're trying to do something they already know wouldn't work. Makes you wonder the true reasons for proposing it.:agree:

[Von Due]

It's called Due Process.

Basically it means that you can't just take rights away from people, especially ones enumerated in the Constitution, without allowing them some form or means of redress in the courts if it was applied in error (or spite). The Democrats refuse to allow that corrective ability in this situation and the Republicans can't add it in without their support.

Remember the Terrorist Watch List is a secret list of names maintained by anonymous bureaucrats who can't be held accountable for their actions. Once a person is added to the list, even by mistake, whether its a clerical error or any other reason (including spite), there is currently no way for the victim to even find out they have been added, why they were added or who put them on it. They can't even petition the courts to their names removed from it.

What's just as bad at that is none of the proposed legislation would have stopped the Orlando terrorist as he had already been removed from the Watch list. In other words they're trying to do something they already know wouldn't work. Makes you wonder the true reasons for proposing it.

Then wouldn't the way be to open up for openness around those lists? I totally see that total secrecy isn't going to increase people's trust in those bureaucrats. They are hit by a no trust sentiment and they aren't doing much to improve that right now and the congress is working overtime to increase that mistrust.

One problem with openness though is, if there is an unrestricted openness then anyone who is on the list can check and go sleeping until they're off the list, which pretty much defeats the purpose of the list in the first place. Even worse, it will give away to individuals and organizations that the law and intelligence agencies are onto them. Revealing that can be literally deadly. Unrestricted openness won't work but some kind of openness is needed.

I don't believe for a second that humans can not figure out how to have a working system here. One step that would be absolutely necessary would be to open up for some kind of openness. The Congress blocking that openness is insane in that regard.

As for lists and faceless bureaucrats: Anyone with a phone, anyone with a credit card, anyone with a job, anyone who is paying taxes, anyone with a car, or a home, is on a number of lists they don't have access to. Anyone using the internet is on a number of lists. The President of the USA. There, those words are all it takes for this post to be logged for further examination and there is a chance it will be logged on a list and looked at automatically by computers. Lists are everywhere for almost anything. If one don't want any list of any kind that is secret, the only way is to move to another planet.

The Constitution is the main arguement and the 2nd amendment in particular. One thing is, an unrestricted and fundamentalistic view on these will have the consequence of terrorists and nutcases getting the weapons they need while making it more difficult for law enforcement agencies to act before tragedy strikes. There is no way around that. The vote, as it is now, opens the doors wide for lone wolves and organizations to hit with minimum or no warning. That is an unavoidable consequence of the vote. In fact it has been the unavoidable consequence since day 1. Question is, can the US afford this fundamentalistic view on a right that certainly is given to terrorists and sound minded folks alike?

I live in Norway and we had in our Constitution the law that said Jews, monks and Jesuits were forbidden to enter the country (really, we did, §2). We got rid of it in 1851, because it's madness to have such a paragraph. We got rid of a paragraph that only did harm to people and nothing good to anyone. Now, this was here in Norway, not the US but even Constitutions are not eternally set in stone. If there is a paragraph or amendment that doesn't work, then all it takes to get rid of that is will to get rid of it. I don't think that is going to happen anytime soon in the US but who knows what will happen in the future. What's written by humans can be changed by humans.

[vienna]

The fellow who recently tried to wrest away the gun of a police officer at a Trump rally and then made statements he did so in an effort to kill Trump is from Britain. Can we expect the imposition of a ban on Brits entering the US in an effort to stem such actions? Wonder what religion he espouses; perhaps that should also be looked into... :hmmm:



<O>

[Oberon]

I figured we would be under the ban anyway, since we also include Northern Ireland and...well...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/19/UVFVolunteers.jpeg

[August]

Then wouldn't the way be to open up for openness around those lists? I totally see that total secrecy isn't going to increase people's trust in those bureaucrats. They are hit by a no trust sentiment and they aren't doing much to improve that right now and the congress is working overtime to increase that mistrust.

It's not just trust that is at issue here or openness and it's not just the 2nd Amendment. Terrorist Watch Lists could be considered unconstitutional themselves for a variety of reasons not the least of which they deprive people of their freedom without allowing them the right to defend themselves in a court of law.

If there is a paragraph or amendment that doesn't work, then all it takes to get rid of that is will to get rid of it. I don't think that is going to happen anytime soon in the US but who knows what will happen in the future. What's written by humans can be changed by humans.

There is a method to change an amendment. It's called a Constitutional Convention but like you say there is no will to do it right so the government tries to go around it by making secret lists.

I don't care how many lists there are out there, when they're used to get around peoples rights then they must be fought and never ever accepted.

[Oberon]

That being said, you can't argue that the ability of domestic terrorists to gain easy access to firearms to kill American citizens is a problem.
The snag comes when you try to deal with that problem without creating a system that is open to potential abuse or subtracting a constitutional right from citizens who are not terrorists.

Perhaps this is one for the old Firearms control thread? :hmmm:

[vienna]

Point of clarification and facts: a Constitutional Convention is not required to amend or repeal any amendment to the US Constitution. Since the first Constitutional Convention, there have not been any other Conventions:

The Constitution provides that an amendment may be proposed either by the Congress with a two-thirds majority vote in both the House of Representatives and the Senate or by a constitutional convention called for by two-thirds of the State legislatures. None of the 27 amendments to the Constitution have been proposed by constitutional convention. https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/constitution/

This is basic civics as taught in US schools...



<O>

[August]

Point of clarification and facts: a Constitutional Convention is not required...

I didn't claim that it was but you knew that already...

This is basic civics as taught in US schools...

Very Tribesmanlike of you to point that out. :nope:

[August]

That being said, you can't argue that the ability of domestic terrorists to gain easy access to firearms to kill American citizens is a problem.

Or their ability to create deadly bombs out of pressure cookers, cargo trucks and jet aircraft.

The snag comes when you try to deal with that problem without creating a system that is open to potential abuse or subtracting a constitutional right from citizens who are not terrorists.

Made even worse by those who would use the situation to rid the American people of those pesky rights and freedoms that keep getting in the way of maintaining proper order. I can see no other reason for proposals that obviously would do nothing to prevent terrorists from obtaining the tools to commit their acts of of murder and mayhem.

[Von Due]

I have to say, I really wasn't suggesting that simply allowing for such lists would be the one step needed. The terrorism issue can not be solved in a few steps. It is a massive jigsaw puzzle where national politics, global politics, global economy, local economies, power, riches, poverty, acceptance for violence, non-acceptance for violence, religions, education, knowledge, news outlets and their pitch, medicine, alliances, propaganda vs reality, resources and who should own those resources, mistrust, trust, invasions, etc etc etc etc are pieces or issues.

The problem is that all these issues have to be looked at. They are all interconnected. In the last 15 years it has been presented as a pure religious issue by politicians, news, priests and mullahs, or it has been presented as purely one of the other issues. Oil, revenge, Bush, Obama, take your pick but you can only pick one.

There are issues that need to be solved that are seen as holy cows, almost taboo. There are issues one want to present as the only issue. That is perhaps the greatest challenge, to say no more holy cows, bring everything to the table and leave personal, short sighted interests behind.

The gun issue is one of these pieces but it is by no means the only piece, not even the biggest. It's just one more piece to the puzzle.

[vienna]

My reference to the amendment process to the US Constitution was intended, as I said, to clarify. This forum has a wide international membership and not a few have expressed interest in the workings of the US government and our processes of governance. The previous posting re: the amendment process seemed to give the impression a Constitutional Convention was the sole means of amending the Constitution or amending and/or repealing existing clauses or amendments. It is always best, when giving an answer, to give as complete an answer as possible, so as to prevent misconceptions. Clarity and factuality in answers and/or statements is best for educating and informing; half facts and unclear, omissive statements or answers are not...



<O>

[Rockstar]

My reference to the amendment process to the US Constitution was intended, as I said, to clarify. This forum has a wide international membership and not a few have expressed interest in the workings of the US government and our processes of governance. The previous posting re: the amendment process seemed to give the impression a Constitutional Convention was the sole means of amending the Constitution or amending and/or repealing existing clauses or amendments. It is always best, when giving an answer, to give as complete an answer as possible, so as to prevent misconceptions. Clarity and factuality in answers and/or statements is best for educating and informing; half facts and unclear, omissive statements or answers are not...



<O>


Just an FYI ol'buddy, your post added absolutley nothing to this discussion. :yeah:

[vienna]

I apologize for the tangential post. A statement was made in an earlier post that seemed incomplete and I just thought there should be a clarification. Again, I apologize to you for the divergence... :up:



<O>

[August]

Gotta love this.

A U.S. immigration official blamed in a federal report for barring law enforcement agents from a suspect in the San Bernardino terror attack has been nominated for a prestigious agency award – but her bosses in Washington refuse to say what she did to earn consideration.

Irene Martin heads the San Bernardino U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services office, where last December, she allegedly blocked five armed Department of Homeland Security agents from the man authorities say supplied the firepower in the deadly attack a day earlier. Although an Inspector General's report found she acted improperly, and then lied to investigators, FoxNews.com has learned she has been nominated for the Secretary’s Award for Valor.


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/23/immigration-boss-who-barred-feds-from-terror-suspect-up-for-award-but-agency-wont-say-why.html

[eddie]

A man who took hostages at a German theater has been shot dead by police. Glad they ended that quickly!


http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/police-shoot-dead-gunman-who-took-hostages-in-german-cinema/ar-AAhxdSc?li=BBnbfcL

[Skybird]

^ Attacker gets described by the police as "mentally confused".

Varying reports on how many people inhaled CS gas, maybe around two dozen.

While not all details are clear, the police already rules out an Islamic terror background. There are also reports saying the man was armed with fake weapons only.

[Betonov]

Suicide by cop ??

[Nippelspanner]

There are also reports saying the man was armed with fake weapons only.
And I wondered how he managed to "open fire" yet apparently not hit anyone.
Either intentional, or crappiest shot ever - or fake guns (very likely).

Anyways - good riddance, fake guns or not.

[Jimbuna]

I've no sympathy for anyone performing such actions in the presence of others.

Surely they understood the potential consequences.

[August]

Suicide by cop ??

Sounds like it to me.. :yep:

[HunterICX]

Here we go again :nope:

Istanbul Ataturk airport attack: 36 dead and more than 140 hurt

A gun and bomb attack on Istanbul's Ataturk international airport has killed 36 people and injured more than 140 others, officials say.

Three attackers began shooting inside and outside the terminal late on Tuesday and blew themselves up after police fired at them, officials say.
PM Binali Yildirim said early signs pointed to so-called Islamic State but no-one has so far admitted the attack.
Recent bombings have been linked to either IS or Kurdish separatists.


Also:

Footage on social media shows one of the attackers running in the departure hall as people around him flee.
He is shot by police and remains on the ground for about 20 seconds before blowing himself up.


:salute: Well done, sir!

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36658187

[Jimbuna]

My lad was in Istanbul a little over a week ago.

[Betonov]

I feel sorry for the Turks.
They're being screwed over by Erdogan the short and then they're killed by the same jackasses he supports :nope:

[Oberon]

Alas I cannot say I'm surprised, Turkey is sliding into a very bad place. It is a terrible shame for the Turkish people. :nope:

[Catfish]

I feel sorry for the Turks.
They're being screwed over by Erdogan the short and then they're killed by the same jackasses he supports :nope:

No problem for him, he blames all on the Kurds. :nope:

[Betonov]

No problem for him, he blames all on the Kurds. :nope:

Not this time.
This time he'll cry to the west [use cartonish arabian voice] ''see infidel, they attack me, they hate me, I have no dealings with them, if we allies they wouldn't attack me''

[Jimbuna]

Alas I cannot say I'm surprised, Turkey is sliding into a very bad place. It is a terrible shame for the Turkish people. :nope:

I've a couple of Turkish friends and the stories they tell are really quite alarming.

[Torplexed]

Orlando-Kabul-Instanbul-Dhaka. Terrorism is steadily working its way towards being a daily occurrence.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-36687616

Gunmen have stormed a popular cafe in the diplomatic area of the Bangladeshi capital, Dhaka, taking a number of hostages, officials say.
Several foreigners are among those being held by eight or nine armed men in the city's Gulshan district, they add.

A police officer has been killed and at least five others injured in a gun battle, a spokesman said.

So-called Islamic State has said it carried out the attack.

[Von Due]

Update on the attack in Dhaka
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-36692613

It ends with 20 of the hostages being killed. Another grim day.

[Jimbuna]

I certainly wouldn't want to be the one arrested, especially over there.

[eddie]

The recent bombings in Baghdad, that killed so many people recently has brought to light that the Iraqi security forces are still using fake bomb detectors at checkpoints. They were sold to them by a British con man who is in prison for 10 years. It has been proven by British authorities that they don't detect anything, but the Iraqis still use them because they have nothing to take its place!!!!! Abadi has claimed they work between 20 to 50 percent of the time, depending how much training the operator has,lol Just how stupid is that government!:nope:

[Nippelspanner]

The recent bombings in Baghdad, that killed so many people recently has brought to light that the Iraqi security forces are still using fake bomb detectors at checkpoints. They were sold to them by a British con man who is in prison for 10 years. It has been proven by British authorities that they don't detect anything, but the Iraqis still use them because they have nothing to take its place!!!!! Abadi has claimed they work between 20 to 50 percent of the time, depending how much training the operator has,lol Just how stupid is that government!:nope:
It's just the overall mentality in these countries, or in this area of the world.
It is, you could say, a different world over there.

[Von Due]

The recent bombings in Baghdad, that killed so many people recently has brought to light that the Iraqi security forces are still using fake bomb detectors at checkpoints. They were sold to them by a British con man who is in prison for 10 years. It has been proven by British authorities that they don't detect anything, but the Iraqis still use them because they have nothing to take its place!!!!! Abadi has claimed they work between 20 to 50 percent of the time, depending how much training the operator has,lol Just how stupid is that government!:nope:

Another way of looking at it: If you have no means of detecting bombs other than watching people blow up, then whatever you do, do not tell the terrorists the coast is clear. Desperate times need desperate nonesense, nonsense is better than no sense at all, anything that can cast any doubt into the minds of future suicide bombers. If one suicide bomber bails out because of that then that counts as a victory. Small victory but big victories are in the realm of fairytales for them, unfortunately.

[August]

Another way of looking at it: If you have no means of detecting bombs other than watching people blow up, then whatever you do, do not tell the terrorists the coast is clear. Desperate times need desperate nonesense, nonsense is better than no sense at all, anything that can cast any doubt into the minds of future suicide bombers. If one suicide bomber bails out because of that then that counts as a victory. Small victory but big victories are in the realm of fairytales for them, unfortunately.

Good point.

[Oberon]

Surprised that no-one has brought up the Medina attack. It's a good thing that the bomber was stopped before he made it inside the Prophets mosque because if that had been attacked then things would have been even worse.
But yes, all these attacks on Muslims during the holy month of Ramadan, not good, and goes to show that while we think we have it bad from Islamic extremism, it's the Muslims themselves that have it far far worse.

[Oberon]

Potential incident occuring in Nice, France. A lorry has ploughed through a crowd celebrating Bastille Day, reports of many casualties.

[Onkel Neal]

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/07/14/truck-reportedly-drives-into-crowd-following-bastille-day-fireworks-in-france.html

[Oberon]

Reports of 60 dead, it looks a real mess there.

Sadly, I suspect the gloating will commence soon.

Tragic day.

[August]

Sadly, I suspect the gloating will commence soon.

Gloating?

[Oberon]

Gloating?

The usual 'I told you so' crowd. Another arrow in their quiver.
Still, rather secondary to the events at hand, but another sad consequence of the times we live in.

EDIT: And frankly, I don't have the energy to go through the same old arguments back and forth, so I'll just leave for a few days until it's out of everyones system.

[Skybird]

Wowh, Oberon, just wowh. Thats rich even for your underhanded standards.

[Oberon]

Wowh, Oberon, just wowh. Thats rich even for your underhanded standards.

Yeah, you're probably right, I'll delete it and just not engage about this. It's just not worth the hassle any more.

[Torplexed]

BBC News now reporting up to 75 dead in Nice at this time. This sort of thing is slowly become an almost daily occurrence. In the past month we've had attacks of some sort from Florida to Dacca. It's getting to the point where a terrorist attack that kills only 5 or so people won't even get a mention.

I'm sure in sympathy, a lot of French flags will go up under a lot of avatars, but that gesture is fast losing any power due to constant use. :-?

[em2nought]

Is it time yet? I think it's time http://ilovehistory.utah.gov/time/images/enola-gay.jpg

[Nippelspanner]

Just watched some raw footage on liveleak.
Bodies everywhere, people in fear and despair over their loved ones who where just murdered by, oh surprise, a Muslim terrorist.
Not even angry. Just sad. Really, really sad. :-?


Is it time yet? I think it's time http://ilovehistory.utah.gov/time/images/enola-gay.jpg
What's this supposed to mean?
Is this you coming out of the closet?
Or do you imply to nuke the middle east, murdering millions of people, committing the third war crime of that sort? :hmmm:

[em2nought]

What's this supposed to mean?
Is this you coming out of the closet?
Or do you imply to nuke the middle east, murdering millions of people, committing the third war crime of that sort? :hmmm:

I'm all for internment too. :03: I don't really care what you care to label it with your revisionist views. :salute: Paul Tibbets isn't a war criminal.

[Onkel Neal]

BBC News now reporting up to 75 dead in Nice at this time. This sort of thing is slowly become an almost daily occurrence. In the past month we've had attacks of some sort from Florida to Dacca. It's getting to the point where a terrorist attack that kills only 5 or so people won't even get a mention.

I'm sure in sympathy, a lot of French flags will go up under a lot of avatars, but that gesture is fast losing any power due to constant use. :-?

What's really scary is...this is easily the most effective and lethal form of attack since 9/11. They could do this type of thing every day. And if they packed the truck with bombs to go off with a delay... :down:

[HunterICX]

What's really scary is...this is easily the most effective and lethal form of attack since 9/11. They could do this type of thing every day. And if they packed the truck with bombs to go off with a delay... :down:

From what I've red last night according to French Newspapers they found explosives, arms and munition in the driver's cabin...makes you wonder what other ideas the twisted bastard might have had if he wasn't shot by the police. :nope:

Seems the guy had a colourful rap sheet too from what I've red on the papers this morning.

[Betonov]

Wowh, Oberon, just wowh. Thats rich even for your underhanded standards.

Like he wasnt lying or was wrong.

And if Oberon has underhanded standards then yours are underfoot.

[HunterICX]

Nice attack: Many Muslims reportedly among 84 killed by lorry

Several Muslims are thought to be among the victims of a lorry attack in Nice (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/nice-attack-live-bastille-day-isis-terror-killed-dead-lorry-drives-crowd-celebrations-latest-news-a7138026.html) that has left at least 84 dead and at least 100 injured.
The French Muslim Council has condemned the atrocity as a “barbarian attack”. In a statement the council said: “France has been hit yet another time by a terrorist attack of the utmost severity.” It added the “odious terrorist act took aim at our country on the very day of its national holiday, a day which celebrates liberty, equality and fraternity”.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/nice-attack-latest-news-lorry-terrorism-muslim-victims-isis-a7138156.html

[Nippelspanner]

A Muslim condemning that liberty, equality and fraternity is under attack?

:hmm2:

[Mittelwaechter]

A human condemning that liberty, equality and fraternity is under attack!

One of your own kin is condemning violence.

You both just don't believe in the same Santa Claus.

Your Santa wears a red dress, while his wears a blue one.

[Skybird]

The ideology that motivates these attacks, has nothing to do with it.

Somehow I seem to have a deja vu.

[Jimbuna]

This sort of atrocity is fast becoming too commonplace....I wish somebody had the answer to stopping all this.

My thought to those families and friends of the deceased.

[STEED]

Third hit on France! Terrible :nope:

This will play into certain political party's at the elections.

[Mittelwaechter]

I wish somebody had the answer to stopping all this.We send our troops into their homes - and some of them come to our homes and pay back.

We are totally aghast, if our people suffer and our thoughts are with them, but we have accepted our troops' violence in their homeland as a commonplace.

We could stop killing their families and they would stop killing ours.
We let them live the way they want - and grant therefore liberty, human rights and democracy the way they want to have it. They prefer a theocracy? Their problem.

If they want to live the way we do, they will care for it.

But our systems' necessity to grow, to expand, to get more cheap workers, consumers, debtors and ressources under control causes all this violence of ours.
So it causes their violence in revenge.

Capitalism is violent by default.
Pressure causes counterpressure.
Our organized terror causes unorganized counterterror.

We all know it to be wrong, but we have no tools in our “free, democratic” society to change things, because our society's rules are designed to support the violent growth of capitalism.

We are caught in a trap. We refuse violence, name it to be archaic, but have to support it on our side. So we justify it with the glorious delivery of our western values, to be granted to those “poor opressed people” we want to serve our economic desires.

So we switch to the second best thing and ask to ban the violent pictures from our news. We don't want to have a constant reminder of our fork-tounged ideology.

We are overfed with our own medicine - and wish someone would have the answer to stop all this.

[Onkel Neal]

From what I've red last night according to French Newspapers they found explosives, arms and munition in the driver's cabin...makes you wonder what other ideas the twisted bastard might have had if he wasn't shot by the police. :nope:

Seems the guy had a colourful rap sheet too from what I've read on the papers this morning.

Yeah, that's one of my long time gripes about crime in general. When we have a mass killing, drunk driving murders, or some other heinous crime, it is almost always someone who has been in trouble many times. Same with these poor fools who manage to get shot by the police. They are never sweet law-abiding people, they typically are owners of a long rap sheet. They need to stay in prison longer; much, much longer.

[August]

We let them live the way they want - and grant therefore liberty, human rights and democracy the way they want to have it. They prefer a theocracy? Their problem.

Who is they? The radical minority that chops off the heads of infidels and apostates and crushes any dissenting voices in their own community or the great majority regular people who just want to get along?

Differentiating between the two, that's the problem...

[Catfish]

^ You are both right, however.. i take it that invading of and behaving "badly" in other countries does stock up terrorist potential in one or the other way.
There will always be nutjobs, but it sems we are not completely innocent in having bred some more.

[Dmitry Markov]

My sincere condolences to all who suffered in Nice (((

Hate to write such things again and again.

I love France and French people, love to visit France and it makes me very sad to hear such news from there ((

[Onkel Neal]

Same here, Dmitry, good post.

[Skybird]

crippled, so: deleted

[Mittelwaechter]

Who is they? The radical minority that chops off the heads of infidels and apostates and crushes any dissenting voices in their own community or the great majority regular people who just want to get along?

Differentiating between the two, that's the problem...

They are like us - accepting our elites to set the rules we have to follow.

Our rulers decide who is a terrorist, an extremist, a critic, a left or right wacko, a misfit - as they did allways - defining witches, heretics, renegades, dissenters, heathens, infidels...

They have their system, we have ours. But we are made believe our system is superior and it shall expand all over the world.

Our elites want to have their elites wealth. That's what we are fighting for - under the cloak of freedom, human rights and democracy.

Capitalism is competitive and aggressive, needs more and more of everything to survive.
They - the socialists, the communists, the theocrats - have it, but don't want to provide it volunteerly. They are not after competition, but after coexistence, sharing and caring.

The capitalists use force - economic force (sanctions) or physical force (war) to get what they want. They can't tolerate any other system, as it may show an alternative of living peacefully and relaxed to the own exploited people.
“Thou shalt have no other gods before me”.

And all their resources are belong to us!

Socialists, communists and theocracies could tolerate capitalism, if it would be peaceful.
They try to share what they have, adapt their population to their sustainably available ressources. The “bad” Chinese one child policy was exactly about this.
No growth is needed.

Bad bad idea in our elites eyes - and we are tought by their media to condemn it.
Restricting the poor Chinese personal freedom is bad.
Opposed to restricting our Western liberties is allways necessary to protect the good system.


So our elites make them enemies and send our children to fight, kill and die, to conquer and take what they want. And we take pride in fighting for our elites freedom to raise above others and exploit, betray and rob them - us - legally.

And we take pride in defending these human rights - those privileges we are granted by our elites as long as they don't have any other interest. Protecting East-Libyian civillians - their human rights - by killing West-Libyian civillians - while denying their human rights - is only a question of interest.

And this representative democracy is just a show to make the people believe they have a say. Politicians are under control of our elites and are easily replaceable.
Cameron and May anyone?
By voting we legitimize the system of our elites. The act itself is important, our vote itself is of no importance.
Vote for Trump or Clinton - and get the best president money can buy.

Their perception is under control - and their loyality is payed for.

Well, Trump is a problem here, as he didn't collect money from the elites to be easily controlled. The establishment - even his own party - is fighting him consequently, while Clinton is protected by the law and from the law.


We? They? It doesn't matter. The people are controlled, the elites rule - here and there. They make the laws and their people baer them.

Would you like to have a Chinese army in the US, providing their superior values to those poor US citizens dependent on food stamps?
Capitalism is obviously pretty bad for a huge part of the US society.

Shouldn't the Chinese help to better their conditions? Even by force, if there were some US militias defending this inhumane capitalist lifestyle, after the regular US military has been wiped out by the glorious Chinese People's Liberation Army.

They liberate too, you know...

[Nippelspanner]

A human condemning that liberty, equality and fraternity is under attack!

One of your own kin is condemning violence.

You both just don't believe in the same Santa Claus.

Your Santa wears a red dress, while his wears a blue one.
I don't believe in any form of Santa Claus, I'm an atheist and well above all this nonsense that causes people to go nuts and slaughter each other for centuries now.
Islam has nothing to do with values like liberty or equality, it strongly oppresses both, wherever it can, yet there is that lying bastard who dares to pull off a stunt like that. In Islam this is called Taqiyya*.
Surely, I am mistaken and Islam, as usual, has nothing to do with this, although about dozen of Suras from the Quran completely supports the actions of these "minorities".

Edit: One more thing, guess how many attacks in the name of Islam have been committed in July alone? Just Nice, right? I mean we didn't really hear anything else so...
During this time period, there were 186 Islamic attacks in 30 countries, in which 1561 people were killed and 2053 injured.Oh... :doh: (source (https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=Last30))


*There are several forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, the best known being taqiyya. These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause of Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.

[Schroeder]

I'm actually all for deporting foreigners with a criminal record. The moment they get jail time or a suspended jail time sentence it should be the highway for them. If they don't have a passport (which they've of course lost while still having their smart phones...) then make a deal with Zimbabwe. They get 20.000€ for every criminal they take and just have to guarantee that he won't be killed or tortured. So if someone doesn't have papers and doesn't want to remember where he is from then he gets send to Zimbabwe (or any other African hell hole). I bet that'll make them remember where they are from and would most likely be way more deterring than our (mostly suspended) jail sentences they get. You show you have no respect for the house's rules you get thrown out. That simple and I don't give a sheet whether they are in danger of torture or execution in their home countries. They got safety, food and shelter here and they CHOSE themselves to become criminals regardless so let them face the consequences.
But no, can't do that, have to be better than that....let's give them a slap on the wrist instead and feel good about ourselves.:yeah:

http://www.smileygarden.de/smilie/Kotzen/1.gif (http://www.smileygarden.de)

[Nippelspanner]

<common sense>
Oh you evil, evil Nazi you! :stare:

[Betonov]

Hey, I'm with Schroeder on this.

People need to learn that new country means new rules.
Equal chance to succed and equal chance you get prosecuted.
Just that prison should be reserved for taypayers.

[Onkel Neal]

Just a friendly word of caution: don't get so worked up you forget we have rules in this forum. Do not quite articles if it means including excessive vulgar language. Post a link, if necessary.

Easy, right?

[Skybird]

What quote...? The only quote I gave was by my grandfather. The article I just linked to, its all in German, so: no quoting done. The harsh language is by me. The newspaper is a major nationbal media over here, so no harsh language in that anyway.

[Onkel Neal]

All right, it was hard to tell where the article left off and you began. Just no t**** and h**** language, mate.

[mapuc]

A Danish/Syrian Politician wrote this as a debate on a Danish news paper homepage

Have used google-translate and corrected where needed-

Sorry for any "weird" sentence

Author Naser Khader

"Moderate Muslims have a shared responsibility for terror

We Muslims can not absolve ourselves of responsibility for that Islam is in deep crisis and that it is a duty to fight the dark forces

After the terrorist attack in Nice, where a Tunisian man killed at least 84 people and injured many more, I wrote an update on Facebook

"If it is Islam, I will not be a Muslim."

Note the word 'if'. Time of writing the Islamic State claimed responsibility for the attack. The details are not yet known.

The French government has called it terrorism. I do not write with my update that all Muslims are terrorists, or that we are at war with Islam. But as usual it will be read as such by many Muslims and other critics of my person. It is predictable, and that's exactly why Islam is in deep crisis.

My update was written deliberately, and I've said it before. It is not enough anymore to express sympathy with the victims and the bereaved. It is not enough to declare that we must stand together. It is not enough to establish that we are at war against lunatics and terrorists, not against Islam. Updates of the character, I and many other written so many, it has been clichés in a progressively terrorist packed everyday

I'm tired of clichés and platitudes. It is important that we step into character as a civilized society and goes a step further

Responses to my brief update did not fail. There was plenty of support, but also the opposite. Most interesting were the reactions of people with Muslim names, and it went from the total disclaimer - 'it has nothing to do with Islam, "" he is not a Muslim', 'this is a wrong reading of the Koran, "etc.. - For perfidious comments about my person, which includes the usual words like 'whore', 'traitor' and 'infidels

Examples exhibits with sad accuracy why Islam is in deep crisis. And they demonstrate comment for comment that moderate Muslims have a huge responsibility for the European countries continued production of Islamists

Why all this simpleton good understanding of Islamist terrorism? Why is Islam protected whenever committed terror in France, Denmark or Bangladesh? Do we hear an outcry over the defense of Islam, coming by reflex?

But it is convenient not to take a stand and say that it has nothing to do with Islam. It aggravates the only problem. As my colleague Majid Nawaz from Muslim Reform Movement has said in connection with the Nice terror:

"People say already that the Nice terrorist were not believers. Please stop. The good intentions about Muslims only makes the problem worse. It's just as bad as saying that it has "everything" to do with Islam. (...) This "something" to do with Islam. "

When you read my Facebook comment tracks, Islam apparently has to be
spared at any cost. It is almost a motto of some. Therefore, one would rather smear people like me rather than to distance themselves from terrorists. And it refuses to introspect and realize that Islam has some problems that only moderate Muslims can overcome. It must come from ourselves. But when did you last hear the same people call a terrorist for 'whore', 'traitor' or 'infidel'?

The key is the recognition that an internal problem is not the same as saying that all Muslims are terrorists. Unfortunately, terrorists are often Islamists."

The article or his debate was longer, but I thought this was enough

Markus

[Rockstar]

Axe attack in Germany. Authorities have not identified the attacker or motive so of course its not terrorism. Kinda like the MS804 say nothing and hope it goes away.

[Skybird]

Young man from Afghanistan who came here without parents, asylum seeker, should have shouted "Allahu Akhbar" during the attack with axe and knives in a train. He then fled, a SWAT team of the police that was nearby by random chance went after him. When he attacked them too, they shot him.

Damn, now everybody will yell again at us that we have not granted him asylum much earlier. :88)

Three people majorily injured, at least one is fighting for his life.

Once again, its a deed not committed by a Buddhist. Arrogant bastards they are - do they think they are something special or why do they never do their share in things like this ? The world is tired of Buddhists doing nothing but boring us - but even that not to death. :hmph:

P.S. Not three but four injured.

[Skybird]

The Afghan man was 17 year old, had no parents with him, and lived with a German foster family since two weeks.

Maybe its genetic?

[Oberon]

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/400x/55430489.jpg

[Skybird]

One would have assumed your endless relativising has been gloating enough already.

[Oberon]

One would have assumed your endless relativising has been gloating enough already.

GLOAT:
dwell on one's own success or another's misfortune with smugness or malignant pleasure.When have I gloated over a terrorist attack?

I take no pleasure from terrorist attacks
I take no pleasure from the backlash against ethnic and religious groups following these attacks
I take no pleasure from coming onto forums and seeing hatred and division spread following these attacks
I take no pleasure from the little jibes or the accusations of being 'PC' because I refuse to tow the party line on Muslims being the problem
I take no pleasure from knowing that the endless cycle of hatred breeding hatred is spreading through the west and doing exactly to us what the terrorists want it to
I take no pleasure from knowing that there probably will be a war against Islam in the future, and that it will be our downfall, because we played the game exactly how the terrorists wanted us to

So tell me, why do I gloat?

[Rockstar]

Me thinks someone might be taking this a bit too personnal. Please keep in mind this isnt about you.

[Oberon]

Me thinks someone might be taking this a bit too personnal. Please keep in mind this isnt about you.

Perhaps, perhaps, but sometimes it's hard to tell.

Anyway, I should stop posting, I keep telling myself not to let myself get dragged in but...

https://media.giphy.com/media/B3nATT4FPkb3G/giphy.gif

[Nippelspanner]

Anyway, I should stop posting, I keep telling myself not to let myself get dragged in but...

https://media.giphy.com/media/B3nATT4FPkb3G/giphy.gif
You said 2-3 times by now you'd stay out of this.
Not sure what pulls you back in if you never have anything of value to say anyways and rather just bitch about all the evil Islamophobes and their stupid facts, while not bringing anything of value to the table yourself.

This is not how it works! :shifty:

[Oberon]

You said 2-3 times by now you'd stay out of this.
Not sure what pulls you back in if you never have anything of value to say anyways and rather just bitch about all the evil Islamophobes and their stupid facts, while not bringing anything of value to the table yourself.

This is not how it works! :shifty:

k :yep::yep:

[Rockstar]

let's just pretend people like Angela Merkel know what they're doing and all critics of the current program are right wing smug gloating xenophobes. It's worked out so well.

[Skybird]

The Afghan had an IS flag.

[Catfish]

Terrorism is terrorism. Of course the likelihood of assults rise with the immigration of foreigners of countries suffering from war and terrorism, but you cannot fight terrorism with war.

War can only been waged against countries, now what did the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq exactly do? You invade a country, then you occupy it, you destroy the economy, then you call back the troops or not (it does not really matter), but the terrorists are still there or moved to other countries.
There can be no open war against terrorism, only secret service work and clandestine action beforehand.

The only other weapon against terrorism is taking away the soil t. grows on. This means giving certain countries a chance, a working economy, education, money, goods to buy, better living conditions, and a chance for their children. This will take decades of course, but it is the only chance in the long run.

[Betonov]

The only other weapon against terrorism is taking away the soil t. grows on. This means giving certain countries a chance, a working economy, education, money, goods to buy, better living conditions, and a chance for their children. This will take decades of course, but it is the only chance in the long run.

That sounds awfully a lot like something that needs 5 times the attention span of an average voter.

[Skybird]

Most of those Muslims attacking London and Madrid years ago, had good job outlooks, were educated, some had academic training, were upper middle class, had good future outlook, seemed to have been "integrated", had friends. They failed the profiles of terrorist schemes the police until then believed would help to identify them as terrorists.

Ideology means a set of concepts that builds motivational power with inherent self-dynamics. It does not depend on external factors, it is the driving force for itself. This means ideology must not be a reaction to external factors. It still can form up and manifest itself even when all external factors are against it.

Thats why I love religious ideologies so much. They make people believe they do something good when actually they commit the utmost cruel and barbaric acts and atrocities.

The old thinking of that it needs social circumstances of poverty and misery to form a Muslim terrorist (also maybe that such a "terrorist" is just somebody else's freedom fighter), are outdated and probably were misled from all beginning on. Its a thought reflex to avoid realising unwanted truths. Mind you, Islam is d death cult, where as people in the West get raised in belief of that individual life is precious. But for a cult that from all beginning on has glorified martyrdom to breed more fearless figthers for the wars to come, this recognition of individual life is pointless.

Certain cultural petrified structures and tradition that even forego Islam and Muhammad, also play a role here.

The attacker yesterday, lived with a foster family, so there were well-meaning people around him who let him live in their own home and family, voluntarily, which says something about the attitude of these people. They hardly met him with hostility or in a non-caring kind of attitude.

[Catfish]

That sounds awfully a lot like something that needs 5 times the attention span of an average voter.

Aye. Invading a country, destroying infrastructure and economy lies within the perception interval. Just like breeding terrorists.

And
1. most politicians have the foresight of a mole
2. they may just want to keep a country intentionally down, as long as they get what they need, like resources.


@Skybird why do you say it is not always the "lower" classes that perpetrate terrorism? As you rightly said it is also the intellectual circles, who see what happens in their country, and prescind the overall situation. Apart from doing it themselves they also (ab)use others and nutjobs for their deeds, yes.
I did not even know that the RAF still exists, in the third generation :doh:

[Betonov]

1. most politicians have the foresight of a mole


I strongly disagree.
Politicians have a foresight of an eagle to accumulate wealth for retirement, contacts to ensure a cushy wealthy job after voted out, redistribute untaxed wealth to hide it from the eyes of the tax services and maneouver familly and friends in said tax services to further hide their wealth and place friends and family in powerfull places no one is qualified to even be there.

[Mittelwaechter]

The Western war on the Middle East has caused the terror, and our Western War on Terror has dramatically intensified and worsened the situation.
We attacked them, conquered their holy soil, destabilized their societies, sanctionized them, attacked them with our puppets and carried harm and death and terror into their homes.

We simply define terror as "only to be performed by non-national forces" and easily legitimize our troops terror abroad.
Then our Mammon motivated troops show up and shoot in self defense at any car that doesn't stop at some foreign “Groola moola is miter!” - and “precision bomb” this communication installment next to the crowded market place.

We don't declare wars on nations anymore, but on abstract constructs like “terror” - and its supporters - and we define both, just like we need it.
Al Qaida (our former glorious Afghan mujaheddin) is a terror group if we want it to be. But in Syria it is just Assad's opposition, to be supported and armed, because we want Assad to be downed - like they were mujaheddin fighting the Russians supporting the bad (democratically elected!) communist “Afghan regime”.

Our glorious leader in the White House orders drone attacks on defined “terrorists” on a daily basis - and of course all victims of those attacks are considered to be terrorists. His drone pilots killed 5000 terrorists with hellfire misslies - and ~100 bystanders he says. Sure Sir, sure.

We are terrorizing Muslims in their homeland - and consequently any resistance is Muslim. What do we expect?

Now Muslims are terrorists - just like any resistance aginst our imperialism was allways a devious and unfair attack on our peacewarriors.
These lightly armed defenders of their homes never dared to face our tanks and aircraft in the open field, but hide and attack like guerillas.
“Bloody Cowards! Come out and fight like men. Use your AK47's and we use our Abrams' and F16's!”

And Holy Christ - now they dare to come over the oceans into our homelands to pay back.

It has a frightening effect on our people. So our media tells us, we have to intensify our efforts to terrorize those Muslims at home.

We care for those terrorists - we breed them by attacking Muslims in their homes. They didn't do anything wrong. We did! And we continue to do so!

And our simple minded give strong male support, just as required.

[Skybird]

The Western war on the Middle East has caused the terror, and our Western War on Terror has dramatically intensified and worsened the situation.
We attacked them, conquered their holy soil, destabilized their societies, sanctionized them, attacked them with our puppets and carried harm and death and terror into their homes.
Lets see if you know the other part of the coin as well and can complete your historical discourse. What was before that age of Imperialism, and why were there the crusades in the first, and the Reconquista,
how did the order of the Assassins end, and by whom and why, why is there a civil war in Islam raging sinc eover one millenium, and why in more modern times since Napoleon landed in Egypt was it the West being able to walk in their countries at will while they no longer were able to reach out against the West to conquer it anmyore like they did before?

Well...? Can you?

Can you give the complete picture - or only the cherries that you picked because they match your biased - and as I say as a German: your typically left-leaning German - world view?

Come to your senses. You sound like Die Linke's propaganda writer.


* For foreigners, Die Linke is a German communist party that followed the Eastgerman SED/PDS.

[xrvjorn]

Lets see if you know the other part of the coin as well and can complete your historical discourse. What was before that age of Imperialism, and why were there the crusades in the first, and the Reconquista,
how did the order of the Assassins end, and by whom and why, why is there a civil war in Islam raging sinc eover one millenium, and why in more modern times since Napoleon landed in Egypt was it the West being able to walk in their countries at will while they no longer were able to reach out against the West to conquer it anmyore like they did before?


For what it's worth, Skybird, a long time ago I used to argue against you in posts like http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=228254, but "completing my historical discourse", I have realized that I've been a naive idiot and you have been right all along.

[Mittelwaechter]

Lets see if you know....

Are you talking about Alexander or Rome and their military in the Middle East and North Africa?
Or is it Hannibal and the Vikings conquering Europe? Attila and his Huns?

Or is it even the clash of Neandertals and Homo Sapiens after the last ice age? Maybe the first 'conquista of Europe' - via Spain and Italy and the Balkans?

Let's see if you know there is a difference between war - of nations or even cultures - and this modern terror we lament.

Our modern wars terrorize civilians - that's the problem. The Second World War was the 'legally justified' birth of killing and bombing civilians en masses intentionally.
So it is civilians fighting back - French Resistance, Guerillas, Partisans...
First they attcked the occupying forces, but now they switched over to attack civilians by themselves - just like the militaries did it before.
It's way less dangerous and the effect is terrorizing.

There was no “Muslim terror” in the US or Europe in the 20th century until we took care of it.
What we call terrorists are no foreign troops trying to conquer our soil. They don't try to bring their lifestyle to us. They come for revenge.

We try to brutally enforce our lifestyle upon them. They shall support our lifestyle by providing their ressources and people to our capitalist religion.
We “offer” them to have our lifestyle - but when they come here to have it, they are shifty breeders, aiming to conquer our traditions, jobs and religion.

If we want to stop their terror - we have to stop terrorizing them and leave their soil. It's as easy as that.

And if we invite them to live with us - to support our religion's demand for growth - we have to accept them to be - especially to look - different from us.


PS: trying to personally insult me shows just a lack of arguments.

[Skybird]

For what it's worth, Skybird, a long time ago I used to argue against you in posts like http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=228254, but "completing my historical discourse", I have realized that I've been a naive idiot and you have been right all along.
Boy, ten years, is it really that long ago? :D

Not certain whether you are ironic or serious, if the latter, my hats-off to you . :shucks: I once have been such a "naive idiot" myself, 13, 15, 18 years ago - I know what a long quest it was to get the puzzle together - and when I had all the pieces in their natural places, seeing all contradictions disappearing all of a sudden. That was good - but nevertheless brought a whole bunch of new conflicts into my life - and costed me some "friend"ships.

[Skybird]

Are you talking about Alexander or Rome and their military in the Middle East and North Africa?
Or is it Hannibal and the Vikings conquering Europe? Attila and his Huns?

Or is it even the clash of Neandertals and Homo Sapiens after the last ice age? Maybe the first 'conquista of Europe' - via Spain and Italy and the Balkans?

Let's see if you know there is a difference between war - of nations or even cultures - and this modern terror we lament.

Our modern wars terrorize civilians - that's the problem. The Second World War was the 'legally justified' birth of killing and bombing civilians en masses intentionally.
So it is civilians fighting back - French Resistance, Guerillas, Partisans...
First they attcked the occupying forces, but now they switched over to attack civilians by themselves - just like the militaries did it before.
It's way less dangerous and the effect is terrorizing.

There was no “Muslim terror” in the US or Europe in the 20th century until we took care of it.
What we call terrorists are no foreign troops trying to conquer our soil. They don't try to bring their lifestyle to us. They come for revenge.

We try to brutally enforce our lifestyle upon them. They shall support our lifestyle by providing their ressources and people to our capitalist religion.
We “offer” them to have our lifestyle - but when they come here to have it, they are shifty breeders, aiming to conquer our traditions, jobs and religion.

If we want to stop their terror - we have to stop terrorizing them and leave their soil. It's as easy as that.

And if we invite them to live with us - to support our religion's demand for growth - we have to accept them to be - especially to look - different from us.


PS: trying to personally insult me shows just a lack of arguments.
I am about your understanding of the importance of violence and subjugation, terror and intimidation throughout Islamic history, and their founding in the Quran, as well as thwe ongpoing aggresison of Islam against every piece of non-Islamci world it ever cam einto contact with, its massive destruction and elimination of other cultures, and its record to attack the West tiem manad again, since one millenium, and establishing caliphates and and Muslim-ruled stronghold sinEurpope where time and again progroms, and the systematic suppression of infiels and their discmrinaiton by Musliom law, was the rule of the day, and in confiormity with the scripture of the Hadith.

I do not even dare to ask you whether you ever cared to rad some academic titles on Islam and its history, about Sunna, Hadith and Sira.

I think we both know the answer. You haven't cared to give yourself thew needed education. You just practice the Germans' most favourite hobby: West-bashing. "Its all out fault". "We are evil". "They are victims". "Muslims today are like Jews in the holocaust." "If we eliminate Israel and give the country back to the Arabs, all peace will break out all of a sudden." If we leave their soils, it will be as if Erdoghan and Khomenei, Muslim Brotherhood and Saudi financing of terrorism, Sunni-Shia war would never have happened."

Greetings to the Genossen. Kill their nerves, not mine. I have heard all this drivel one time too often to stay patient or polite.

[Von Due]

Just to set one thing straight. To say Islam everywhere has been aggressive against anything non-muslim one has to disregard the existence of Albania, which while being non-theist is a country in Europe with a majority of believers being muslims (about 58.8%). It is also a country that has a relatively high religious tolerance.

http://foreignpolicynews.org/2014/03/07/albania-kosovo-genuine-religious-tolerance-europes-backyard/

Remember too that under Saddam, Iraq as a nation was secular with reportedly the highest tolerance by the state towards other religions of all Arab countries. The state was non-theist but the people in the Govt were not necessarily so.

There is another thing that is rarely discussed. That is in the Arabic countries, there has always been a strong self identification with tribes, more than nations and flags.

Add to that the conflict between Sunni and Shia, originating in a very secular conflict over who should make all the calls for everybody.

What we see in the Arab countries can't be brushed off easily with a "it's Islam". It's much more and much deeper rooted than that.

It is true that Islamic terrorist attacks rose from near non existent before the 1960's to the mayhem we have today. Islam hasn't changed. Religions don't change like that, that rapidly. Something changed but if religion doesn't change, what is it then, that has changed since around the 1960's and has kept going in that new direction right up to this day?

It is too simple minded and too historyless to simplly say "it's islam". Today it is definitely in the equation but it is not the root, it is not the original cause.

[Betonov]

What we see in the Arab countries can't be brushed off easily with a "it's Islam". It's much more and much deeper rooted than that.



Now you'll anger st. Himmelvogel, the patron saint of long texts.
We actually can say it's islam, as an excuse terrorists use. The cause and root is always political in nature. You think Erdogan is a islamic tyrant becasue he prays five times a day or because religion is a good way to keep the population in check and willing to go against their own well being.
A sane muslim can always decide not to be a murderer.

[Skybird]

Since over one thousand years the communities of infidels in Muslim countries get reduced, and shrink. Dsirimination of them, even by state'S law, was and is commonplace. Progroms against infidel minorities happen even in tourist attractions like Egypt.

Ehile the level of discirmination varies, discrimination nevertheless is a fact in EVERY Muslim country I know of, all Africa, all Middle East included. And I include Turkey, Iraq and Iran here since many years.

I do not deny that there can be found many individual examples where regional psmall populations learned to tolerate each other and leave the other alone. But that is not because Islamci scripture encourages that or demands that - it is despite that scripture, becasue reason and humanism ruled over relgious demand. Which makes such Muslims no Muslims anymore,. but apostates in the eyes of Islamic ideology (and they can be rightfully killed for that, apostcy is under death penalty if the subject refuses to rethink his rejection of Islam). Because what Islam originally wants, is subjugation, the killing of the other if he is not a member of the people of the book (Jews and Christians), and if he is allowed to live then, at least he must pay protection money and must be felt inferior (according to Muhammad that is a mandatory obligation of every male Muslim) and must be discriminated by and before the law, he (she anyway) shall not be given equal status before the law (which is demanded to be Sharia law anyway).

You can call that "tolerance", if you want. I don't. Calling it "second-class citizens" still woudl be an euphemism.

[Von Due]

Now you'll anger st. Himmelvogel, the patron saint of long texts.
We actually can say it's islam, as an excuse terrorists use. The cause and root is always political in nature. You think Erdogan is a islamic tyrant becasue he prays five times a day or because religion is a good way to keep the population in check and willing to go against their own well being.
A sane muslim can always decide not to be a murderer.

Highlighted this bit there. This I agree on, like I agree that the murders that happened in Northern Ireland was a religious conflict between Catholics and Protestants as much as it was a conflict between Unionists and Union separatists. Still today one can find text that explains the Northern Ireland killings as being a religious war. The fact that it was always a conflict between staying in or leaving the UK didn't stop reputable news sources from claiming otherwise.

[Onkel Neal]

For what it's worth, Skybird, a long time ago I used to argue against you in posts like http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=228254, but "completing my historical discourse", I have realized that I've been a naive idiot and you have been right all along.


Oh my god, he knows he's right, don't tell him you think he's right, that could cause the Earth's magnetic field to collapse.:O:

[Skybird]

Now you'll anger st. Himmelvogel, the patron saint of long texts.
We actually can say it's islam, as an excuse terrorists use. The cause and root is always political in nature. You think Erdogan is a islamic tyrant becasue he prays five times a day or because religion is a good way to keep the population in check and willing to go against their own well being.
A sane muslim can always decide not to be a murderer.
A sane Muslim is somebody who follows Muslim doctrine according to the scriptures, because the scripture decides what Muslim is and what not. That is Muslim sanity.

Sanity has nothign to do with it. The courage or lack of courage to be an apostate - that is what its about. You put your life at risk if you fall away from Islam. Which already is a message on what a monster you are dealing with.

Islam is not a name to be arbitrarily abused for any self-collected set of private and subjective views and ideas. The term is a classification for something that is specifically meant by the term. you or others cannot just take the term, stick it to somethign you feel more comfortable with, and then call that "Islam". It isnt. Its you own little creation only. Call it Betonovism then, that's okay. But not Islam. Islam is Muhammedanism, and Muhammedanism bases on the scripture related to Muhammad, the originator. No way around this. Now way.

Okay, that was enough Islam fun for the week, I'm out of here.

[Mr Quatro]

Boy, ten years, is it really that long ago? :D

Not certain whether you are ironic or serious, if the latter, my hats-off to you . :shucks: I once have been such a "naive idiot" myself, 13, 15, 18 years ago - I know what a long quest it was to get the puzzle together - and when I had all the pieces in their natural places, seeing all contradictions disappearing all of a sudden. That was good - but nevertheless brought a whole bunch of new conflicts into my life - and costed me some "friend"ships.

What happened to 14, 16, and 17 years ago were they good ones :D

[Von Due]

Skybird: As I am sure you are aware, anti-Jewish sentiments go WAY back. I'm also confident you know that there is nothing in Judaism that forbids a Jewish banker from charging interest in loans. You may also be aware that in Islam, charging interest is against the religion. This has always bee true. In old Islamic countries, only Jews were allowed to charge interests in loans. Now explain to me how this intolerance towards non-muslims led to only Jews being allowed to make money on lending out money? How is that intolerance towards Judaism? Isn't this exactly the opposite, namely acceptance? Non-acceptance would have had a very different result but that other result is not what we see happened. Unlucky for the Jews, this acceptance to practice what Islam forbids led to what we now know as anti semittism.

Granted, this was a long time ago now and much have changed in a lot of areas but this really did happen and it really is not the tell tale sign of this eternal non-acceptance you keep repeating.

Look deeper if you have a genuine interest in finding out what is causing all the killings we see today.

[Nippelspanner]

TIL, it is our fault that a quarter of all muslims would love Shariah law to be the law to rule the world.
Interesting. This thread gets better and better, now even Die Linke has infiltrated Subsim with their apologist-nonsense.
For those who really think "this is our fault", go watch some lovely uncensored videos about all the terror attacks throughout the last 3 years, then visit some relatives and explain to them how their dead mother/father/son/... is at fault for being beheaded, blown to bits, stabbed to death or rolled over by a damn truck.

I start to get the feeling that some people here never even once put their nose into a friggin Quran, let alone did any research regarding why it is considered a dangerous ideology by everyone with a working brain, from Hitchens over Dawkins over Condell over Maher over you name it!
And these guys aren't exactly retarded right wing nuts.
Wake up!

[Von Due]

TIL, it is our fault that a quarter of all muslims would love Shariah law to be the law to rule the world.
Interesting. This thread gets better and better, now even Die Linke has infiltrated Subsim with their apologist-nonsense.
For those who really think "this is our fault", go watch some lovely uncensored videos about all the terror attacks throughout the last 3 years, then visit some relatives and explain to them how their dead mother/father/son/... is at fault for being beheaded, blown to bits, stabbed to death or rolled over by a damn truck.

I start to get the feeling that some people here never even once put their nose into a friggin Quran, let alone did any research regarding why it is considered a dangerous ideology by everyone with a working brain, from Hitchens over Dawkins over Condell over Maher over you name it!
And these guys aren't exactly retarded right wing nuts.
Wake up!

There is no reason to thing Islam plays no part, or only a small part of it. My point still stands though. To really understand why it has become what we see today we can't just look at religion. Still, that is the ONLY thing I see being talked about, everywhere from forums to news to small talk on town. Ignore everything behind that and you are guarantied to not find a solid, sound way out, just like totally ignoring what religion can lead people to do will guaranty the same.

[Nippelspanner]

To really understand why it has become what we see today we can't just look at religion. Still, that is the ONLY thing I see being talked about...
Because you ignore that Islam is much more than 'just religion'.
It is a culture, a way of life.

That is the problem.

[xrvjorn]

Not certain whether you are ironic or serious

I'm dead serious. Too much reality shattered my wishful thinking.

TIL, it is our fault that a quarter of all muslims would love Shariah law to be the law to rule the world.

Actually, about 65% of muslims in Western Europe according to this large survey: https://www.wzb.eu/sites/default/files/u6/koopmans_englisch_ed.pdf

Pew Research Center has made similar surveys in the Middle East, where the percentage was much higher.

BTW, I'm a great fan of Dawkins, Maher and the late Hitch myself. :-)

And by that I exit this discussion, because for a Swede it's safer to walk through a mine field than to have the wrong opinion (even if the "opinion" is a survey by a recognized research institute).

[Penguin]

Daesh apparently released a video of the jihadist who attacked the train passengers in Germany: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36832909

[Nippelspanner]

BTW, I'm a great fan of Dawkins, Maher and the late Hitch myself. :-)
A man of taste! :up:

And by that I exit this discussion, because for a Swede it's safer to walk through a mine field than to have the wrong opinion (even if the "opinion" is a survey by a recognized research institute).
Ugh, I remember, the situation in Sweden is severe. One of the last countries I expected to act so foolish. It must suck to drown in PC everyday while surrounded by feminists and the thought police of social justice. :down:

[Von Due]

Because you ignore that Islam is much more than 'just religion'.
It is a culture, a way of life.

That is the problem.

You see, the problem I have with that idea when taken whole sale is that there are cases where religion was blamed when it turned out it was a national, or regional, tradition. Not more than 3 years ago was it the truth that female genitals mutilation was a "muslim thing". Now reality has spoken up and set it straight: It's a "thing" in fewer than a handful African countries. It was practiced there before Islam as it is practiced there now.

Yes, religion is, by how we define culture, part of culture and as such, absolutely, Islam is "more than religion". Of course it is. But WHAT cultural things are we talking about? Hijabs? Say hello to the Jordanian Royal Family
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/69/13/d5/6913d5246e438531d582493a50b0b96d.jpg

[Nippelspanner]

Ah nice, some "moderate" Muslims (who aren't muslims - read the damn book!).
Your point?
I mean, do you have one?

again, read the book and then tell me again how muslim they are. What a joke.

[Mr Quatro]

I just found out that Syria has drones ... who's next isis?

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2016/07/17/Israel-launches-anti-aircraft-missiles-at-Syrian-drone-.html

Israel on Sunday fired missiles towards an unmanned drone that entered Israeli-controlled airspace from Syria and it turned back, the military said in a statement.

“Two Patriot air defense missiles were fired towards a drone which infiltrated Israeli airspace in the central Golan Heights. The drone returned to Syria,” the Israeli army said.

[Von Due]

First, on Jordan: Jordan is indeed a muslim country. Quote "The 1952 Constitution grants freedom of religion while stipulating that the king and his successors must be Muslims and sons of Muslim parents."

Surely you are not suggesting the king is not a muslim, or that if he is, he is obliged to intolerance towards non-muslims and will demand any wife of his to cover her hair. Not to mention the citizen must go absolutely gun crazy having a non-hihab wearing queen. Oh wait..... They don't.

Now, you are indeed in a mood where you WILL brush off any sign of non-unity in tradition among muslims as oddballs, "moderate" (what does that even mean that wouldn't mean the same for any other religious follower?), single isolated examples and on and on.

One can lead a horse to water and all that but you will have to look it up yourself, I'm afraid, to see that there are "traditions" that are less about Islam, or any other religion, and more about traditions from that area. I can keep trying but by the sound of it, you will continue to brush everything off with "those are isolated cases".

My point was and still is, learn the difference between those cultural issues, like hijabs, or burkhas, see that not every muslim woman everywhere is required to wear anything other than anyone else would have to wear anywhere else. Right now all I see is a merry jumbled mess of all traditions from everywhere we find muslims, and pin all of it on all of them.

And don't even get me started on Jihad and what that means. Did you know there are several points to describe Jihad and only one of them are about "holy war". As a well read individual I am certain you can lecture us all about all points which total up to what Jihad is.

[Mittelwaechter]

I am about...

Sorry, mate! You disqualify yourself for any further discussion, by your suppositions of my lack of knowledge, my intentions or background.

Please withstand any further unpolite and triggered response.

_________________

I'm not defending Islam or any other religion, but show the faults and latent or open ambiguities in our western religion - capitalism.

It is founded on our Christian religion, we are proud to have overcome in daily politics. Something we expect Muslims to do. They shall end their theocracy - as we did it. Well, we bomb their more open Muslim societies back into stone age constantly, but we are good in formulating expectations.

So we have overcome our religion in daily politics - but we just replaced Jesus Christ for Mammon - and some of us even try to serve both gods.

Our religion - our new religion - is fighting their religion as it was before. We are simply told, it is no holy war we are performing, but a justified provision of a better life, a better future, a better political system, modern lifestyle - by force.
We want their ressources and their people to follow our religion. Their oil, their warriors, their consume, their financial systems and debt servicing...

Just follow our god and you shall have a bright life - and for the double servants additioanlly a bright afterlife - if you fight for us.
They only have 72 virgins - by now pretty old eternal virgins, I guess.

_____________________

Our former Christian priests have lost their weekly influence on our (atheist) motivation, but our new religion's media priests have full access, several times on a daily basis. And they use it. Muslims are to be attcked, because they are evil heathens - still believing in their brutal god. They are terrorists!

We are good in alleging, they do all those bad things we do. See these terrorists terrorize civilians - our civilians.
Well, we terrorize theirs, but we are told these are no religious ambitions. We want to bring freedom, human rights and democracy... bla bla bla...

These media priests are paid experts in explaining us the world, wherever we can't witness ourselves. With the internet their power is decreasing, as we have broad access to alternative truths. The provided controlled eyewitness-dom per TV screen has been switched to an uncontrolled eyewitness-dom via Youtube and consorts.
Controlled public discussion via newspapers and readers letters has been replaced by uncontrolled public discussions in chats, blogs and forums.

The control over our perception has been shifted from regular, traditional media priests - controlled by - I don't know - maybe 300 media popes around the globe - to a few corporations like facebook and twitter, microsoft and adobe, controlling our personal pocket screens and internet monitors. And they have a direct feed back - some sort of confession deprivatized. We agree on their power to rule us, by giving them access to our personal data.

These new crooks - crosiers - lie to us, just as usual in their business. They collect our data to provide peronalized advertising. Advertising is just one sort of information - to be shown or hidden from us. They control it - we accept it.

And when the old media priests and the new corporate algorithms both tell us, those Muslims are terrorists, we eyewitness this truth again.

[August]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CmABvbbWMAAXizx.jpg

[Mittelwaechter]

Impressive, what conformity you can achieve with the control over perception and motivation.