The all purpose terrorism thread featuring plenty of allah akbar

[Nippelspanner]

And don't even get me started on Jihad and what that means. Did you know there are several points to describe Jihad and only one of them are about "holy war". As a well read individual I am certain you can lecture us all about all points which total up to what Jihad is.
I didn't even mention Jihad, not once.
Are you leading phantom-debates now because you have no point?

Read. The. Book.

[Von Due]

There are no phantom anything here. The issues are: Tolerance vs intolerance, to which I have said my piece a number of times now, traditions and what traditions, to which I have said my piece a number of times now, misinformation in the news and elsewhere, I happened tto pick this jihad thing, to which I have said my piece a number of times now. One more issue is what is Islam and how does terrorism fit into the religion, to which I and history have said our pieces a number of times.

You will not find a simpleton's one-liner substitute for the issues we all are facing here. This is not a "Islam vs the World, end of story" debate, no, not all muslims share every idea of what Islam is about, no, not every muslim is rooting for terrorists, there are more issues here, and older ones too, than mere religion. There are much younger issues here as well, than mere religion.

Religion does play a part but it is not the only part.

[Mittelwaechter]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CmABvbbWMAAXizx.jpg

The right side can be checked for truth. The left side could show us easily 12 women from Saudi Arabia.
Is the Saudi woman missing, because we shall not be reminded, our fine ally enforces this dress too?
Or is it traditional over there?

Just asking...

[Nippelspanner]

'Tolerance' :har:
I see, you haven't read a single page of this book.
"not all muslims share every idea of what Islam is about"

Islam, defined by the Quran, which is infallible, doesn't care about how anyone sees Islam, or wants to see it.
The Quran is Islam. And you are only a muslim if you follow it.

While I hate repeating myself:
Read. The. Book.

You can share your "pieces" as much as you want, it doesn't matter when you don't even understand the basics of this totalitarian ideology that is on its way to conquer Europe bomb by bomb... or truck by truck.

[Von Due]

'Tolerance' :har:
I see, you haven't read a single page of this book.
"not all muslims share every idea of what Islam is about"

Islam, defined by the Quran, which is infallible, doesn't care about how anyone sees Islam, or wants to see it.
The Quran is Islam. And you are only a muslim if you follow it.

While I hate repeating myself:
Read. The. Book.

You can share your "pieces" as much as you want, it doesn't matter when you don't even understand the basics of this totalitarian ideology that is on its way to conquer Europe bomb by bomb... or truck by truck.

Islam is defined by the Quran exactly the same way every other religion is defined by their holy text. Riddle me this: Why do Sunnis and Shias worship differently, with different rituals and all? They share the same religion but they do not read the same book the same way. Riddle me this: In some muslim countries, women have to wear burkhas. In other they don't. In some they have to wear hijab, in others, they don't. They read the same book and get the same "commands".

It is how we humans read and interpret these books, all of these books, that makes what is a practiced religion.

You keep clinging to your world of simple one-liners and I am trying to explain that it is not among one-liners you will find the solutions. It is not a black and white world we live in, it is not 2 dimensional populated by cardboard figures made on order. This is a fully fledged 3D world with more dimensions to these problems than just "it's Islam".

[Nippelspanner]

Islam is defined by the Quran exactly the same way every other religion is defined by their holy text. Riddle me this: Why do Sunnis and Shias worship differently, with different rituals and all? They share the same religion but they do not read the same book the same way. Riddle me this: In some muslim countries, women have to wear burkhas. In other they don't. In some they have to wear hijab, in others, they don't. They read the same book and get the same "commands".

It is how we humans read and interpret these books, all of these books, that makes what is a practiced religion.

You keep clinging to your world of simple one-liners and I am trying to explain that it is not among one-liners you will find the solutions. It is not a black and white world we live in, it is not 2 dimensional populated by cardboard figures made on order. This is a fully fledged 3D world with more dimensions to these problems than just "it's Islam".
You just don't get it.
The world isn't black and white, no way Sherlock?
However, Islam is. It is the simplest thing. Follow, or don't follow.

How in seven Hells can people speak of 'tolerance' when they talk about an ideology that commands its people to murder, to lie, to deceive and to conquer?

"Muh but Christianity!!!1"
Yes, but unlike Islam, even this crap-ideology evolved somewhat, because it realized it had to (surely not out of courtesy).
Islam however... there is but one way in Islam.
Translate Islam and you get the answer.


What a waste of time.

[Von Due]

You just don't get it.
The world isn't black and white, no way Sherlock?
However, Islam is. It is the simplest thing. Follow, or don't follow.

How in seven Hells can people speak of 'tolerance' when they talk about an ideology that commands its people to murder, to lie, to deceive and to conquer?

"Muh but Christianity!!!1"
Yes, but unlike Islam, even this crap-ideology evolved somewhat, because it realized it had to (surely not out of courtesy).
Islam however... there is but one way in Islam.
Translate Islam and you get the answer.


What a waste of time.

The fact is there are more than a billion muslims worldwide. We do not have a billion terrorists running around killing infidels left and right. ISIS has an estimated crowd of some 30,000+. 30,000+ out of more than a billion. Numbers tell me they do not represent Islam despite the claim by their leader and their followers. More than a billion believers and how many of them have committed murder in the name of religion? Nowhere near a billion I can tell you that. These non-murdering muslims are not single, isolated cases. They are the majority. By definition not single, isolated cases. How does the majority fit into your narrative of muslims being murderous? How does that fit into your narrative of their religion telling them to go out and commit murder? They simply do not and it doesn't take a PhD to get that fact straight,

[Nippelspanner]

The fact is there are more than a billion muslims worldwide. We do not have a billion terrorists running around killing infidels left and right.
*sigh*
If I'd get a dollar each time I have to hear this empty catchphrase.
"Radical Islam" doesn't start with beheadings and bombings - by definition (from intelligence agencies world wide), it starts with the acceptance of Shariah law. And according to multiple sources (who are all automatically wrong and liars, of course, don't waste your time) hundreds of millions of muslims want that/would support that.

Until someone can proof these numbers wrong, I have no reason not to be on my toes. And what a coincidence, just yesterday my country was attacked - though the outcome was rather lucky, it seems.

Oh and closing, you mentioned they don't behead people left and right.
WELL IT SEEMS THEY ARE ON A GOOD WAY AREN'T THEY? :/\\!!
Oberon said the same nonsense a while ago, ignoring that people in his country are indeed getting beheaded.
It happened, it will happen again, it will happen more frequently.
But Islam isn't the problem - we are.

I'm just some hopeless Islamophobe who has no reason whatsoever to despise Islam and feel alarmed, don't mind me. :shifty:

/END OF WATCH

[Mittelwaechter]

Brilliant! Finally the ultimate justification to attack any Muslim.
Each and everyone considering himself/herself a Muslim is evil by default.

Well, at least it seems to be on a balanced niveau with fanatic Muslims, justifying to attack any non-believer.


Damn, I have to relive my life again and treat my Muslim workers, colleagues and friends right.

[Mittelwaechter]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CmABvbbWMAAXizx.jpg

Let's have a google image search for the left statement:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=women+india&btnG=Search&gbv=1&tbm=isch India
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=women+bosnia&btnG=Search&gbv=1&tbm=isch Bosnia
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=women+iraq&btnG=Search&gbv=1&tbm=isch Iraq
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=women+afghanistan&btnG=Search&gbv=1&tbm=isch Afghanistan

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=women+syria&btnG=Search&gbv=1&tbm=isch Syria
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=women+ua+emirates&btnG=Search&gbv=1&tbm=isch UA Emirates
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=women+yemen&btnG=Search&gbv=1&tbm=isch Yemen
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=women+egypt&btnG=Search&gbv=1&tbm=isch Egypt

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=women+pakistan&btnG=Search&gbv=1&tbm=isch Pakistan
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=women+iran&btnG=Search&gbv=1&tbm=isch Iran
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=women+somalia&btnG=Search&gbv=1&tbm=isch Somalia
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=women+malaysia&btnG=Search&gbv=1&tbm=isch Malaysia

And this shows up for Saudi Arabia - our ally - and surprisingly missing on this educative collection, reassuring our perception and motivation:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=women+saudi+arabia&btnG=Search&gbv=1&tbm=isch

[August]

Let's have a google image search for the left statement:

Do a better google search. Your India link for example show mostly Hindi women.

[Mittelwaechter]

The links show the first Google image page for the nations you have provided.

I don't write Google's algorithms. They pretend to show the most relevant results first...

India muslim women:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=india+muslim+women&btnG=Search&hl=en-GB&gbv=1&tbm=isch

Indian muslim women:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=indian+muslim+women&btnG=Search&hl=en-GB&gbv=1&tbm=isch



Provide a better, less misleading information yourself.

It is not personal, August. No offense intended.
You just provided a perfect demonstration of perception control, creating reality and motivation.

[Rockstar]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CmABvbbWMAAXizx.jpg

I think I've brought this up before. Back in the day women dressed like those on the right, beautiful. Historically the only women who routinely covered themselves to conceal their indentity during business hours back then were the local prostitutes. Why or how the muslim religion came to expect their women to dress that way is beyond me.

[Skybird]

Growing doubt on the identity of the "Afghan attacker in Germany. Instead police now strongly assumes he was indeed Pakistani.

His victims were a family - from Hongkong.

[Mittelwaechter]

Noooo! His victim was Germany! He's a Muslim terrorist attacking our lifestyle...


The 14th I was just Nice - now I'm Bavarian and Nice!

[Mittelwaechter]

Why or how the muslim religion came to expect their women to dress that way is beyond me.

We overcame our Christian priests - to be replaced by media priests telling us to pray to Mammon.
Sex sells, grants growth - so our women are half naked.
We expect them to be half naked here with us - and some even try to refuse Muslimas the personal freedom to cover up.

Our former Christian religion expected our women to appear decent and covered.
Our women totally devoted to God look like nuns, you know...

http://abload.de/img/audreyx4uev.jpg

[Rockstar]

Umm it was in France that three women were attacked because of their lifestyle. I guess the attacker thought the mother and her two daughters were too scantily clad for his religious tastes and should dress like the ones pictured above on the left. They weren't so he stabbed them with a knife.

[Mittelwaechter]

Idiots are not rare. I heared there was a Californian woman cutting her husbands private off, because he wanted to be divorced. She told the police he deserved it.

There is no shortage of news to provide our views of the world. But we see the world as we are, not as it is. Our comments and opinions reveal more about ourselves than about the objects of discussion.

We read those papers and watch those documentations we are interested in, showing us “our” world. Most people are not interested in truth, but in reaffirmation their view of the world is correct.

Someone reding the Sun is expecting a differnt description than someone reading the Times. In both news we are victim to a remote controlled perception of the world and doomed to believe, just becaue we can't check everything to be true.

Believing in God or believing in media is believing - not knowing. You guess the attacker...

We see what we shall see, hear what we shall hear, read what we shall read.
And with the internet it works on an idividual level now.

The former controlled group in the weekly church was replaced by a smaller controlled group of daily readers - and is now replaced by the controlled individual - every time consuming information.

We get some free gimmicks in exchange - email clients, online storage or free operating systems. And greedy bargain hunters we are, we hand over our data to enable our profiling.

So they shall know what information we need to stay in formation.

[eddie]

Idiots are not rare. I heared there was a Californian woman cutting her husbands private off, because he wanted to be divorced. She told the police he deserved it.

There is no shortage of news to provide our views of the world. But we see the world as we are, not as it is. Our comments and opinions reveal more about ourselves than about the objects of discussion.

We read those papers and watch those documentations we are interested in, showing us “our” world. Most people are not interested in truth, but in reaffirmation their view of the world is correct.

Someone reding the Sun is expecting a differnt description than someone reading the Times. In both news we are victim to a remote controlled perception of the world and doomed to believe, just becaue we can't check everything to be true.

Believing in God or believing in media is believing - not knowing. You guess the attacker...

We see what we shall see, hear what we shall hear, read what we shall read.
And with the internet it works on an idividual level now.

The former controlled group in the weekly church was replaced by a smaller controlled group of daily readers - and is now replaced by the controlled individual - every time consuming information.

We get some free gimmicks in exchange - email clients, online storage or free operating systems. And greedy bargain hunters we are, we hand over our data to enable our profiling.

So they shall know what information we need to stay in formation.

Oh please! What drivel!!:nope:

[August]

It is not personal, August. No offense intended.
You just provided a perfect demonstration of perception control, creating reality and motivation.

It's not meant to be a scientific study.

The point is that the types of garb on the right were once a lot more common in their host countries than they are today. Islamic communities have become more fundamentalist and the headscarf is just one noticeable aspect of it.

[Mittelwaechter]

The point is...

If this is the point, do you dress like your grandpa? Do you wear some garb?

Or do you follow the expected, usual, conform, modern Western dresscode?
Do they do the same - adapt to their actual society rules?

Western capitalism has intensified in the last decades too. Some have to work three jobs now to make it to the end of the month. Some have to rely on food stamps, because the capitalist jobs are somewhere overseas. But we have to show our happiness, our success in capitalism, so we try to dress accordingly at least - volunteerly.


Who are we to dictate their way of life? Would we accept their dictate, if they were able to conquer our soil? If they were economically strong enough to blackmail us?
If they would have some drones in our skies, to hit wherever they think a terrorist might stand next to you?

Where do you think our people turn to traditionally, ask for support and follow the offered concepts, if being massively endangered, attacked, killed, tortured, opressed and exploited - just to find some hope for a better future?

To a competitive, capitalist, corporate CEO? To pray for a rising sales index?

[Sailor Steve]

Oh please! What drivel!!:nope:
Please counter the argument or not. No more insults.

[mapuc]

While we sit and throw words and other verbal things against each other the political and religious Islam is growing stronger and stronger in Europe.

I think those radical Muslim must love us for our peaceful everlasting word throwing

Markus

[Mittelwaechter]

I think those radical Muslim must love us...

I think they must hate us for throwing bombs and missiles on their homes and families, for conquering their holy land, for taking their soil and granting it to one religious group of the area, for destabilizing their societies, for killing their elected leaders, for sanctionizing their economies, denying medicine for the sick, torturing their people, abusing their children, importing fanatic radicals...

... supporting and arming 10% local opposition, trying to overthrow a leader supported by 70% of the polulation...

[mapuc]

I think they must hate us for throwing bombs and missiles on their homes and families, for conquering their holy land, for taking their soil and granting it to one religious group of the area, for destabilizing their societies, for killing their elected leaders, for sanctionizing their economies, denying medicine for the sick, torturing their people, abusing their children...

Of course when it come to they own country they must hate us, I meant here in Europe where we do nothing than talk, talk and our government are doing nothing than saying that everything is going to be OK, we have everything under control.

I do not have a solution to what we shall do, I only know we have to stop talking and start to take action or those terror attack will keep on coming and it will increase fast.

Markus

[Mittelwaechter]

I do not have a solution to what we shall do, I only know we have to stop talking and start to take action or those terror attack will keep on coming and it will increase fast.

Would you stop spitting at me, if I stop beating you?

[August]

If this is the point, do you dress like your grandpa? Do you wear some garb?

Or do you follow the expected, usual, conform, modern Western dresscode?
Do they do the same - adapt to their actual society rules?

Western capitalism has intensified in the last decades too. Some have to work three jobs now to make it to the end of the month. Some have to rely on food stamps, because the capitalist jobs are somewhere overseas. But we have to show our happiness, our success in capitalism, so we try to dress accordingly at least - volunteerly.


Who are we to dictate their way of life? Would we accept their dictate, if they were able to conquer our soil? If they were economically strong enough to blackmail us?
If they would have some drones in our skies, to hit wherever they think a terrorist might stand next to you?

Where do you think our people turn to traditionally, ask for support and follow the offered concepts, if being massively endangered, attacked, killed, tortured, opressed and exploited - just to find some hope for a better future?

To a competitive, capitalist, corporate CEO? To pray for a rising sales index?

Wow! Are you that threatened by a simple observation that you just had to construct this gigantic straw man to avoid it?

Bottom line here is no westerner is telling Muslims how they must dress but many many Muslims have been and continue to be raped, beaten and killed for minor transgressions including not wearing fundamentalist approved clothing.

[August]

I think they must hate us for throwing bombs and missiles on their homes and families, for conquering their holy land, for taking their soil and granting it to one religious group of the area, for destabilizing their societies, for killing their elected leaders, for sanctionizing their economies, denying medicine for the sick, torturing their people, abusing their children, importing fanatic radicals...

... supporting and arming 10% local opposition, trying to overthrow a leader supported by 70% of the polulation...

You mean the exact same things they do to themselves in their never ending internecine wars?

[Skybird]

LINK - Nothing to do with Islam (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N46mIHEGHN0)

LINK - Its good to be anti-Islam (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIaGWURONRU)

[Mittelwaechter]

You mean the exact same things they do to themselves in their never ending internecine wars?

You mean it is better if we do it to them?

[Mittelwaechter]

Wow! Are you that threatened by a simple observation that you just had to construct this gigantic straw man to avoid it?

Where did I try to avoid a threat?

Bottom line here is no westerner is telling Muslims how they must dress but many many Muslims have been and continue to be raped, beaten and killed for minor transgressions including not wearing fundamentalist approved clothing.

Their social rules, their problems. Their idiots raping, beating and killing - just like we have a generous portion of them. They are entitled to rule by their society? Again, their social rules, their problems.

Definitively not our business justifying any violent action. We could care for our own problems, our violent behaviour, our social rules...
Of course we only want to free the poor slaves - to exploit them our style. Some simply have to die for our good intentions.

And I know of westerners who want to order Muslimas to take their scarfs off. There have been even legal verdicts in Germany (neo-westerners third class), to enforce it in job environments.
And there are legal verdicts to counter these verdicts.

Edit: most wife beaters/killers are to be found in our allied Saudi Arabia, afair. And in Afghanistan - just after our westerners have imported a few thousand Saudi Arabian extremists to Afghanistan to fight the Russians. Those ex-mujaheddin are called Taliban now, afair.

This matches even our Google image search further up this thread!

[August]

Their social rules, their problems. Their idiots raping, beating and killing - just like we have a generous portion of them. They are entitled to rule by their society? Again, their social rules, their problems.

Definitively not our business justifying any violent action. We could care for our own problems, our violent behaviour, our social rules...
Of course we only want to free the poor slaves - to exploit them our style. Some simply have to die for our good intentions.

Right because here in the west we all get up in the morning just to think up new and profitable ways to exploit the poor poor Muslims.

As far as idiots go at least ours tend to be prosecuted and jailed for those crimes whereas their have seized control of their societies and they maintain their iron rule by committing those crimes in mass quantities against anyone who opposes them.

And I know of westerners who want to order Muslimas to take their scarfs off. There have been even legal verdicts in Germany (neo-westerners thirYeah because the need to identify a person is the same thing as executing a woman for the crime of being raped. Never mind that the scarf hating westerners that you know do not have the ability to conduct mass executions, but oh yeah "legal verdicts in Germany" are just like public stonings.

And what should we do when these downtrodden peoples ask for our help? Delegations of oppressed ethnic groups from around the world do that all the time. Should we always ignore them? Would you also ignore a cry of help from a neighbor being attacked or is it just strangers who deserve such heartlessness?

[Mittelwaechter]

Right because here in the west we all get up in the morning just to think up new and profitable ways to exploit the poor poor Muslims.

“We” usually get up to be exploited - by those thinking about new ways to exploit us and additionally about ways to enlarge their host of exploitable servants.
That's a primary concept of capitalism: raise above others and make them pay your lifestyle, make them invest lifetime to be transferred to your disposal. They work for you - instead of you - while you enjoy your lifetime. It is the freedom we fight, kill and die for - the freedom to exploit others.

As far as idiots go at least ours tend to be prosecuted and jailed for those crimes whereas their have seized control of their societies and they maintain their iron rule by committing those crimes in mass quantities against anyone who opposes them.

Our society is entitled to define our idiots as theirs is entitled to define theirs.
Our definition of law has not to be identical with theirs, I hope.
But this is true for their expectations and hopes either. If they prefer the Sharia...

Those Egyptian Muslims really had the chance to democratically vote for our system...

Yeah because the need to identify a person is the same thing as executing a woman for the crime of being raped. Never mind that the scarf hating westerners that you know do not have the ability to conduct mass executions, but oh yeah "legal verdicts in Germany" are just like public stonings.

My scarf haters don't try to stone someone, but deny the expression of religious belief granted by our laws. The problem is - our capitalist religion expects a worker to be as profitable as possible - and an intolerant customer may keep his money in his pocket. So a Muslima working at a counter selling tools may be harmful for business, if she wears a scarf to cover her hair, because the optional buyer may be spurning Islam and it's symbols.
The scarf I'm talking about is no veil/curtain across her face, hindering her identification.

Death penalty is uncivilized - I totally agree. Mass executions by law are as bad as single executions by law. Killing 25 people on a central place in public is just more a happening than killing 25 people across the whole country. Well - it depends...

What did you do to prevent executions by law in the US? Shall we send some weapons and instructors? Maybe we could try to motivate some Afro-American citizens to support your efforts?

And what should we do when these downtrodden peoples ask for our help? Delegations of oppressed ethnic groups from around the world do that all the time. Should we always ignore them? Would you also ignore a cry of help from a neighbor being attacked or is it just strangers who deserve such heartlessness?

Asking us for help should motivate us to help them, but not to kill them.

We could invite them? Offer our protection here with us?
Well, not all agree on that and want to build walls and fences to keep them out.

We have accepted rules in the law of nations. But some don't consider it to be valid for them. They only insist on it while trying to enforce it on others.


We kill for our greedy capitalism, not to help strangers. Don't fall for this propaganda.
We don't want to help them, we “want” to help our capitalistic rulers to get their desired growth. Control over more ressources, cheap workers, unmet consumers, naive debtors, motivated soldiers.
Read or watch the news and learn our primary economic needs.

Did we sanctionize Syria to help them? Or did we sanctionize Syria to encourage the population to blame Assad for the miserable conditions and overturn his rule?
And did we arm a resulting 10% opposition to help the 90% rest of the population?

Encouraging Saudi Arabia - again, and still our ally - to import all kinds of Muslim extremists into the country, to support the 10%? They get out of control and start ISIS? Some TalibanII scenario? Al Nusra is Al Qaida, but we support them? Really?


Well, at least it seems Kerry is adapting to some facts right now - thanks to Putin.

[Skybird]

The father of the family that got attacked by that thug with an axe, still fights for his life , status is critical.

[August]

“We” usually get up to be exploited - by those thinking about new ways to exploit us and additionally about ways to enlarge their host of exploitable servants.
That's a primary concept of capitalism: raise above others and make them pay your lifestyle, make them invest lifetime to be transferred to your disposal. They work for you - instead of you - while you enjoy your lifetime. It is the freedom we fight, kill and die for - the freedom to exploit others.

You have a twisted view of capitalism that sounds a lot like old Soviet propaganda. The truth is that while flawed (like any human economic system), Capitalism is all about working hard to better oneself. Creating ones own opportunity. Something that you cannot do in non capitalistic systems where your ethnic group or your loyalty to The Party means everything.

Something else you should remember. Nobody is owed a job but nobody is forced to go to work at gun point in a capitalist system. You may not like the job you're doing but you're still free to walk out the door singing a Johnny Paycheck tune and use your talents, intelligence and personal drive to create a better situation for you and your family.

Our society is entitled to define our idiots as theirs is entitled to define theirs.

You talk about societies like they are created with the assistance and approval of everyone in them. While you may have an argument when talking about a modern western society that certainly does not apply in the countries we're talking about.

My scarf haters don't try to stone someone, but deny the expression of religious belief granted by our laws.

So you're still trying to compare that with public stonings. Amazing.

The problem is - our capitalist religion

Now it's a religion? Here and I thought it was a economic system open to anyone regardless of religion... My bad.

expects a worker to be as profitable as possible - and an intolerant customer may keep his money in his pocket. So a Muslima working at a counter selling tools may be harmful for business, if she wears a scarf to cover her hair, because the optional buyer may be spurning Islam and it's symbols.

It's called a dress code. If the scarf isn't part of it then again they are free to walk out the door and go open a tool store where a head scarf is part of uniform.

The scarf I'm talking about is no veil/curtain across her face, hindering her identification.

Yeah and in doing so you deliberately confuse a few calls for government restriction on veil wearing with a private companies dress policy. Apples and oranges.

Death penalty is uncivilized - I totally agree. Mass executions by law are as bad as single executions by law.

That all depends on the set of laws you're talking about. Are they ones created and enforced at whim by the local warlord or real ones being the result of a fair trial by ones peers with extensive appeals and delays to ensure that they get it right?

Killing 25 people on a central place in public is just more a happening than killing 25 people across the whole country. Well - it depends...

Nothing wrong with public executions, I think they should all be public, but show me the last time a western country that executed 25 convicted criminals in one day.

What did you do to prevent executions by law in the US? Shall we send some weapons and instructors? Maybe we could try to motivate some Afro-American citizens to support your efforts?

I don't have any problem at all with executing a criminal. Heck i'd pull the switch myself on a McVeigh or a Zarneyev. It's just that my definition of criminal is a bit more than any woman who manages to get herself raped and didn't commit suicide from the shame right afterwards. Unless you can understand the difference better than you understand capitalism then further discussion is useless.

[Reece]

I can't say much August except :up:

[Betonov]

I'm jealous August. Where's that passion when you're sparring with me

[Mittelwaechter]

You have a twisted view of capitalism

Do I? Maybe you have it twisted, because you have learned your lessons well?

It's off topic, but has some brutal terror included...


Let me direct you a little movie in your head. Of course it is just a movie and can't reflect all aspects of a century long developement, but it tries to show the general picture.

Imagine there was a little homestead of 10 shacks, at the foot of a hill, close to a river leading to the village with the market place. 60 people are living in the shacks - men, women and children.
The hill provided a fresh water well, some woodland, some willow trees, gras for the sheep, eadible berries, roots, wild corn, some deer...
It was a hard life for the 60, but the hill provided for them. They used the public hill and river to make a living, cut twigs from the willow trees to weave baskets, cut trees in the woods, to roll them downhill to the river and float the trees and the baskets to the village, to sell all of it on the market, to have some money to access goods and services they couldn't provide themselves.

One day a Mr. Hillock arrived, a “giant” of man, in company of his three heavily built sons and his wife.
The four men carried clubs and entered the shacks to claim the hill to be their property from this day on. Some couraged of the 60 tried to argue, but were bludgeoned by the four bullies.
Well - the four thugs kept the 60 under control and forced them to build a nice villa at the top of the hill, with a formidable veranda at the southern side, to oversee the woods, the shacks and the river.
The 60 had to provide for the thugs, pay them the tythe, about ~ 20% of all they managed to collect, produce, hunt and sell. The Hillocks were criminals, ruling the hill, ruling the people, living a pleasurable life on top of the hill. They took what they wanted - additionally to the tythe. The natural right of the strongest justified their easy wealth and joy.

Anybody could have done it like the Hillocks, if they just tried to better their life, by raising above the community and enforcing them to pay the tythe and of course bear the discomfort of major responsibility.

So guess what? Mr. Hillock got old, one of his sons drowned in the river a few years ago, one was a toper and the third one was weakened, suffering from syphilis.
A Mr. Barrow arrived, two sons, a wife, three shotguns. He asked Mr. Hillock politely to leave the villa on top of the hill. Some shots were fired, and somehow the hill had a new master.
An able, engaged entrepreneur - a brilliant description by the way - with visionary economic talent.

The 60 were offered jobs - to be payed by Mr. Barrow now. The old system of the tythe should be considered overcome. Mr. Barrow wouldn't take the tythe, but pay for work. Imagine!
Fair conditions should be established, everybody should have the right to have some wealth, after working hard to better himself. They should be payed according to performance.

So Mr. Weaver - living in the second shack - once cut twigs from the public willow trees, weaved a basket, transported it to the village, sold it at the market and earned 100 credits per day - 100 certificates to verify his creation of value. A comfortable means to be exchanged for some salt, sugar, beans, a hair cut and a beer at the inn.
Mr. Woodpecker - living in the fifth shack - once cut public trees on the hill, rolled them downhill, foated them to the village, sold them on the market and earned 100 credits a day - 100 certificates...

With Mr.Barrow owning the hill, the trees and the twigs - both couldn't provide for themselves other than working for Mr. Barrow - or leave the shacks and try to better themselves somewhere else.
Overseas are some hills to be taken they say, from some badly equipped red people, living in tipis close by their public hills...

Mr. Barrow was clever enough to have the Weavers and Woodpeckers do specialized jobs now. Mrs. Weaver was cuting twigs, Mr. Weaver was weaving them to baskets. Timmy Woodpecker, Mr. Woodpecker's son, transported twigs to the shacks and baskets to the village. Lilly Woodpecker, Mr. Woodpeckers daughter, sold the baskets on the market and transported the money back uphill. She was gifted with trading skills and a trustworthy, honest believer in the ten commandments.

Why should they have specialized jobs, you attentive viewer ask? Well, if you understand as a worker, you are doing all the work in the chain of production, sell the product and have to carry 100 credits back uphill - to be paid from that money - you may realize some odd facts with Mr. Barrows fair system.

So, uphill the Weavers and Woodpeckers were really paid their money as Mr. Barrow told them. The more productive specialized job system enabled the selling of 4 baskets a day - so Mr. Barrow paid 100 credits to eachof his workers, because they did all the work to verify the creation of 4 baskets and the transformation into 400 credits.
Mr. Barrow made his own living by donating some of his organs and blood to the Red Cross...

Let's stop the movie here and take a break. Have some popcorn and a soda. I hope you are still enjoying the story and forgive the bad acting and rare development of characters - as the lousy text formation.
I have to admit, the ending of part one was a bit fictional. The Weavers and Woodpecker's offspring didn't get paid by Mr. Barrow. But let's watch them...

Mrs. Weaver did a simple job, so she earned 40 credits that day, while Mr. Weaver did a very skilled job - he earned 60 credits that day.
Timmy had a workers contract for 40 credits wage - and Lilly was employed, earning 60 credits, for her sophisticated performance in a position of trust.
So let's do the math and add it up: thats only 200 of 400 credits paid to the creators of value. How the heck - oh, right - the taxes...

Mr. Barrow and his friends had taken care for a civilized community by now. No person should have the right to take away some others property by force again.
Some villagers down the river had taken each others shabby clothes and worn out shoes, and some were stealing bread to survive, you know.

This civilized community had to provide some services for its members - like a school for the children to learn how to read, weave baskets and function properly in Mr. Barrow's fair economic system.
They were thought properly, to understand their freedom of working hard to better themselves. Long time ago, some slaves had to work for their owners and some uncivilized thugs blackmailed the polulation to be provided by them. Dark ages. Today we privatize (privare lat. to rob) by economic force, by the accumulation of money to be paid to some owner of property, to legally possess the property. Everybody can do it legally.

By the way - Mr. Barrow pays a private teacher for his children, so they shall learn how the system works and how to keep it running. Waeving is no necessary skill here.

Another important service was installed and to be paid by the comminity - a police force, to ensure the laws of property and society. The law granted property and heritage for Mr. Barrow as for the Weavers and Woodpeckers equally. Any criminal, taking the property of members of the community, shall be arrested and the robbed property shall be given back to the rightful owner. Take that, Mr. Hillock!

Come on! We have to admit Mr. Barrow and his friends are really smart guys. They manage to have a comfortable lifestyle, because they are clever enough to control the rest of the polulation with proper information.

So the Weavers and Woodpeckers paid Mr. Barrow de facto 200 credits - and Mr. Barrow transfers 100 credits to the community - as taxes and for social security (if installed) from the Weavers and Woodpeckers.
So he has 100 credits left. He has of course some costs for axes and knifes, not to mention the seedlings for regrowing the cut trees. Some fees for his hill owner interest group and his employer association add up too.
15 credits later he has only 85 credits left. His tax level is exremely high and he has to pay 40% taxes of his income.

Wait, he has to use a car to drive regularly down to the village to check Lilly. 7 credits cost for the car are off the taxes. That's 78 credits left. He invested into a paved river bank downhill, to enable a propper handling of the trres into the river. He had to take a credit at the bank - apportioned to the daily 100 credits it is 30 credits off the tax base. He is a trustworthy customer the banksters say.

We are down to 48 credits now. There must be something... oh, yeah, the teacher for the kids. Sure. The man has to earn his living - 70 credits for educational purposes - but only 50% accoutable for the taxes. 13 credits left. The tax free level for entrepreneurs is ... ? ... flipping papers, checking tables... 16 credits a day. Phew! That was close. So no taxes for Mr. Barrow.

Well, Mr. Barrow would have had the possibility to transfer some money to Panama - like all of us - to avoid taxes.
Mr. Barrow plans to check Mr. Holt's method, to get some taxmoney from the community, called subsidies.

Could have been a cliffhanger for the next part of our movie. But now we are just so excited to see what happens next to the capitalist hill society, right?

Well - in short - Mr. Barrow has a heart attack.

What? Yup - he dies.

Red haired Fabian Barrow, his elder son, has absolutly no intention to stay at the rural hill and with the Weavers and Woodpeckers. He's a dandy and loves gold and jewels.
He moves into the busy village and marries Constanza Rothshield. A twisted story of some accusations for tax fraud makes him take the family name of his wife.

You may want to watch the capitalist adventures of Fabian Rothshield in the movie linked in my signature.

[August]

Do I? Maybe you have it twisted, because you have learned your lessons well?

It's off topic.

Is there an actual point to this? It's so badly written it's difficult to tell.

It's biggest flaw is the idea that living in a shack, dying by age 30 after burying most of ones children first from disease and injury first is some kind of thing to be nostalgic for. "Hard life" indeed. You have no idea what that actually means if you promote it like that.

Another thing the story lacks is how those original 60 even if left alone would still happily butcher each other for all same reasons you try to pin on capitalism if the mood were to strike them. Greed is not ideology specific and evil is universal.

Finally it lacks barbarians. For obvious reasons that alone makes it useless as point making material. :yep:

[August]

I'm jealous August. Where's that passion when you're sparring with me

You're too much effort :up:

[Skybird]

LINK - Is this what you consider evil? (http://www.working-minds.com/money.htm)

[Mittelwaechter]

Is there an actual point to this? It's so badly written it's difficult to tell.... :yep:

No development - science, technology, culture - is possible without Mr. Barrow? Mankind proves you wrong.
Science, technology and culture could be much further, if the Barrows and Bishops were banned in time.

The Weavers and the Woodpeckers are after butchering? Are you living in a bad neighbourhood, or were do you get this impression from?
Mrs. Woodpecker has no interest in the shacks on the other island, but Mr. Barrow has. She wouldn't have more for a living, but he could offer more jobs.
She would have major problems in the community, with attacking her neighbour.
Mr Barrow invests money and some of his “workers”, to attack the neighbour hill. He easily cares for personal protection.

Barbarians! Next movie shall have some Barbarians. And some explosions maybe?

[Mittelwaechter]

A teaser for the new movie “Augustus, the Barbarian.”
- An alternative history of the ten shacks. -

Mrs. Woodpecker is collecting berries, to bake some pie for the 35th anniversary festivities of the ten shacks. They call the settlement “Friendship” now.
We realize she is worried. The radio this morning has told, a foreign hill society - under the leadership of Augustus the Barbarian - has stationed missiles at the other side of the river.
He has money and soldiers an masse, to threaten any hill he is intersted in. Augustus controls the overseas trade and the money flow.

Mr. Woodpecker and the Weavers had a discussion this morning, if it would be necessary to take some money of the settlement and build a bunker - and maybe a few missiles of their own.
Augustus has already taken control over the river delta, and the ships trading goods from the village to overseas are sent back. A cordon across the river has been installed.

Augustus declares, sanctions are necessary to motivate the Friendship settlement to accept his reign peacefully. He emphasizes several times, he is not after war, but would defend himself if being attacked.
Timmy Woodpecker and a few friends have built an explosive device, to destroy the barrier...

[Jeff-Groves]

Is this the Terrorism thread or the fantasy thread now?
I'm confused.
:o

[Mittelwaechter]

I like your signature! ;)

[August]

Is this the Terrorism thread or the fantasy thread now?
I'm confused.
:o

Yeah I've been kinda wondering about that as well but now that he's gone personal i'm guessing the forum admins will be stepping in shortly.

[Mittelwaechter]

Didn't you ask for barbarians?

Oh - the famous American humor.

All is good while making jokes about others, but dare you to have a payoff on the US.

Shall I rename Augustus to Ocatvian?

[Jeff-Groves]

I like your signature! ;)

Yea. I kind of fell down there didn't I?
:oops:

[Mittelwaechter]

http://abload.de/img/iubm0vbr68nubuzj.gif

[mapuc]

I have a request, can't you agree on, that you disagree on most of the topic being discussed in this thread and then continue from there ?

Markus

[Mittelwaechter]

We are a circle of sheep - with one sheep telling the others, they shall not accept the wolves to take their lambs, eat them, send them to death, make them kill other sheep.

But the others have been taught intensively and successfully by the wolves, they could become wolves themselves. They just have to start eating lambs and fight other sheep, who try to resist our wolves attacks. So they insist on this possibility and consider it their own fault to stay sheeps.

Now you enter the circle and ask to agree to disagree.

Do you have any lambs?


I totally know you are after harmony. You are a nice sheep. ;)

[August]

I have a request, can't you agree on, that you disagree on most of the topic being discussed in this thread and then continue from there ?

Markus

I pretty much disagree with his entire take on life. Whats left?

[Hottentot]

Whats left?

Being a better person, shrugging and moving on? It's only the internet after all.

[Catfish]

[...] Whats left?

Depends on the point of view.
What is "right" in Europe, is "socialist" in the USA.
What is "left" in the US, is already "right" in Europe.
For Ayn Rand lovers the Nazis are "left".
What is "right" in the US, exceeds european gauges.
And the moon is made of green cheese.

Thread properly derailed? :D


Seriously, what Mittelwaechter wrote is not so wrong when you think about it.. observational abstraction and all that.

[Betonov]

Mittelwaecher is wrong in one aspect, what we have is not capitalism. It's corporate socialism where companies used wealth and influence to lobby goverments into favourable laws at the expense of the working folk.

[Catfish]

Mittelwaecher is wrong in one aspect, what we have is not capitalism. It's corporate socialism where companies used wealth and influence to lobby goverments into favourable laws at the expense of the working folk.

Define "corporate socialism" :hmmm:
What has lobbying, bribing politicians and getting corporation-friendly rules through (to the disadvantage of the workers), to do with "socialism"? I would define this as "locust capitalism", if at all.

What we have is what "capitalism" becomes, everywhere and always, after a few years. Like communism and dictatorship.
Initially it may have been a good idea, but it does not work in the long run. And the result has not much to do with the initial "..ism".

[Betonov]

Define "corporate socialism" :hmmm:
What has lobbying, bribing politicians and getting corporation-friendly rules through (to the disadvantage of the workers), to do with "socialism"? I would define this as "locust capitalism", if at all.


They enjoy tax payed benefits.
When you're from former Yugoslavia socialism means something positive. Something that benefited the population.

[Aktungbby]

.... with one sheep telling the others, they shall not accept the wolves to take their lambs, eat them, send them to death, make them kill other sheep.

Do you have any lambs? You are a nice sheep. ;)That's called a Judas GOAT...not a sheep! https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/8e/Judasgoat.jpg/220px-Judasgoat.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Judasgoat.jpg)
https://s3.amazonaws.com/lowres.cartoonstock.com/animals-pork-farmers-slaughterhouses-betrayed-double_agents-aprn77_low.jpg (https://www.cartoonstock.com/cartoonview.asp?catref=aprn77)

[Catfish]

^ Hehe ;) I think what he means is not an intentional bribed "Judas goat", but someone who does it voluntarily, because he indeed believes it is best for the people, thus generating a false... "harmony".
The "Judas" does not even take money anymore, he is brainwashed himself.


They enjoy tax payed benefits.
When you're from former Yugoslavia socialism means something positive. Something that benefited the population.

Socialism is the prestage which inevitably leads to communism, say Marx, and Engels.

In the socialist stage there are some private companies left which are not yet nationalised, and are temporarily being guided and then dissolved by the wise benevolent government of the people, which, in reality, astonishingly, consists of one person. Same as later with the communist final stage, only that all companies and corporations are nationalised. Still one dictator.
All for the good of the people, of course.
It is as it has always been: Every dictator has to invoke a legitimation for his rule, in former time it may have been brute force (also a legitimation: I can do it), but then came religion (deus vult), and now political theories of all kinds (good for the people). Or, a putsch/coup, but i digress..

In theory when the stage of communism has been reached, there is not even the need for a government anymore, let alone a dictator. It is the "people's rule", of all.

But what we see and have seen with "communism" is not the theoretical socialism or communism described and thought of by Marx, what happens is always a dictatorship.
We can discuss whether the latter is inevitable with humans, when they try to live by communism. But the end product is not communism as defined by Marx or Engels. In the real world, it always ends in a dictatorship.
So we can conclude that socialism and communism is probably a nice idea, but impossible to implement among the selfish and egoistic human race.
In theory, theory and practice are the same.
In practice, not so much.

Capitalism is much closer to humanity, not ethical theoretical nonsense but pure plain and healthy greed (not being sarcastic here), turning out to be the best system, because in a way almost all can participate, and the general standard of living is higher than in all other systems and "...isms".
There may still be pity and helping others of course, but it is not the main principle.


Ok i get it that you say the corporations bribe the politicians, thus counterfeiting the wellbeing and will of the common people, and common sense. And the politicians use the people's tax money to even the way, for the corporations, e.g. by paying for the infrastructure a.s.o..
But why would you call that socialism? :hmmm:

Edit please punch me if i get close to skybirdian length.. :haha:

[Oberon]

That does tend to be how communism works out in reality, power in the hands of one person, but IIRC the original goal was power spread amongst many hands rather than just one, probably the closest that we almost got to that were the Soviets set up in post-Tsar Russia but before they were all infiltrated and overrun with members of the ruling government.
Of course, this being humanity such a form of government would tear itself apart as various factions sprung up and worked against each other rather than for each other. Hence why the 'Dictatorship of the Proleteriat' was turned into an actual dictatorship as opposed to being a phrase indicating the political control by the proleteriat class level. Lenin knew a good thing when he saw one. :haha:

I think, honestly, in Europe we're as close to socialism as we're going to get, perhaps in the future we might get a bit closer as we become further interlinked by communications, but I'd have said that was more interwined with direct democracy, which is a system which has its benefits but relies heavily on the information presented to the public being free of bias, which is another problem that we have in this current era.

[Skybird]

Communism is the endgame of socialism, when the last capitalist straw of market economy that socialism clings to and that kept it floating for some time, undeserved, has been consumed and eradicated, and so socialism drowns as well.

Socialism is a way to mean communism without wanting to be held responsible for he term.

Social market economy is a term that means socialist planned economy, without wanting to be identified with that term and being criticised.

Its all about deception. And it always ends in mass poverty and misery in which we all finally will be equal indeed, and it always ends in brutal tyranny and secret police regimes that enforce what the people finally have understood was not the way to heaven. When ideology and empty promises do not do the trick anymore to rally them around your lies, you need to use brute force to make them.

[Mittelwaechter]

^ Hehe ;) I think what he means is not an intentional bribed "Judas goat", but someone who does it voluntarily, because he indeed believes it is best for the people, thus generating a false... "harmony".
The "Judas" does not even take money anymore, he is brainwashed himself.

Sorry for any confusion!

I consider Mapuc not to be a goat or Judas, but a nice guy who cares for his people, friends and dotcomrades. He sees problems and wants them to be solved.
No offense, no bad intentions, no second thoughts, no cynism...

I consider him to be one of us sheeps.

I admit I deliberately used some verbal barbs in my postings before. :p2:

Capitalism is much closer to humanity, not ethical theoretical nonsense but pure plain and healthy greed (not being sarcastic here), turning out to be the best system, because in a way almost all can participate, and the general standard of living is higher than in all other systems and "...isms".

Is the wolfpack really closer to us humans than the flock? Or is this just the story, the wolves teach us?

We grow up in families - not organized like wolfpacks. We care for each other, do not exploit the weaker, do not deny a fair share - the needed share - of the joint hunt. We have a leader - a dictator - who dominates the family, but who cares for it and shares its fate. He doesn't accumulate wealth for himself, while his family suffers. What is this but socialism?

We live in communities and neighbourhoods - without robbing property or butchering each other. We accept rules to be followed, for the community to survive, to provide protection and support in times of trouble. We care for each other. Socialism!

We do have perverted neighbourhoods and perverted families - sickened by the ideology of the wolves. We are told to become happy with privatized property - wich we have to finance with the work for the wolves. A bigger car, the latest cell phone, nuke sneakers...
Work and consume are the meaning of life. Debts are necessary, to have a better education, to have better chances to work for the wolves. They have the money we need - and they happily hand it over - for interest. Here we have capitalism!

We are kept competitive for the jobs - and the wolves care for more workers than jobs - or less jobs than workers, to keep the wages low - the exploited share high.

But happiness comes with property we have learned. No job - no property. Agression is the consequence, even robbery just to survive - in the worst case.

The wolves tell us, this is our nature and we believe it. But we are sheeps, no wolves. It is their nature, not ours. They fight each other after the deer is caught - for the biggest piece. The alphas eat the most, the “middle pack” have their share, and the weak get some food stamps. And the group of the weak is growing, because the jobs are in China - and the Chinese sheep have started to fight our wolves, by hunting deer. They don't eat it, they invest it.

So we have to hunt harder. Of course our wolves want their usual growth, more deer and bigger pieces. So the middle pack is shrinking and the weak starve.

Now we ask the wolves' sheepdogs to make America great again.

[Catfish]

^ @Skybird: What you write is not so far away of what i wrote, although you chose your own or Rand's ideas of what communism is.

It is just human nature that socialism and communism have never worked, and always led to dictatorship, poverty and misery. Which is why what we see is not the theoretical part, but what it always turns out to be in practice. The theoretical part obviously does not work, in reality.
We are too egoistic, or too individual – depends on point of view.


However the theoretical part of capitalism regarding what Mises and Ayn Rand wrote is wrong as well. Theoretical capitalism with lots of small companies competing against each other and thus low prices for the people sounds good, but does not work in the long run. Because companies will always try to merge to become bigger, and have more power.

If you let them do what they want, you have monopolies, cheap printed money without backing it up, globalisation with the locusts and the side effects.

If you have some governmental control about forbidding them to merge and become monopolies, it is not free capitalism anymore. But it also is not communism.
It is pretty much what we have.

[Betonov]

Socialism worked in Yugoslavia becasue people that dind't work were shuned by the people and the state. You were not priviliged to benefits if you didn't pitched in.
That's why socialism is so venerated here and that's why I have a different mental image than the west when socialism is mentioned.

Today it's a mess. The system where everyone pitched in and everyone benefited is falling apart by people that don't pitch in and people that take more benefits than deserve.

Those who can no longer give to those who can't but those who must give to those who won't :nope:

[Mittelwaechter]

Capitalism is much closer to humanity, not ethical theoretical nonsense but pure plain and healthy greed (not being sarcastic here), turning out to be the best system, because in a way almost all can participate, and the general standard of living is higher than in all other systems and "...isms".


PartII

Your best system, were allmost all can participate the higher living standard, is a sophism.

We don't see the hordes of exploited for our capitalist American Way of Life. They live in India, Bangladesh, China, Cambodia...
They are our cheap workers - slaves to be payed 20 cents an hour - working under inhumane and risky conditions. The poor suffering masses are far away - and we have a high living standard. They pay us for it.

With the downfall of socialism and communism - they act more capitalistic now - a controlled capitalism - we have to face the problem of competitive ability. Our own people have to work for cheap wages now, have to work longer hours, be extremely productive, have three jobs.

Suddenly we have the poor in the middle of our high living standard. Food stamps and Hartz4. A market installed for cheap working power. Germany was paying top wages - and now we are the cheapest wages market of Europe.
Capitalism doesn't work for a majority, but for a few privileged in Europe and in the US - as it works for a few privileged in the world - Europe and the US.

We are Mr. Barrow - the western community of values - countable in Dollars and Euros. And we are doomed to die - the heart attack in inavoidable.

We fight it - even kill for it. It happened before - and now it happens again.
The actual cycle for empires to rise, shine and fall is 70 years. The Soviets matched it perfectly. The Westerners will be gone ~ 2020.

The Pharaohs ruled thousands of years, the Romans a few centuries, the Mayas less, the British even lesser, the Soviets 70 years - and the US started after the Second World War. China's turn now - 55 years maybe.

With continued progress in technology and communications, we heat the systems up faster and faster. China was growing 15% a year and they reduced the growth to 7% by design. They still do everything simultaneously what the former empires had to perform step by step.

We polluted our environment 200 years massively - they do it only 25 years - but with the same damage.

We are doomed to get rid of capitalism. We just haven't learned and accepted yet. China could make us their India, their Bangladesh.

You may not like the messenger, his whole view on our life, but that doesn't change any facts.

[Jimbuna]

Can we go back on topic or is this thread exhausted now?

[Betonov]

Can we go back on topic or is this thread exhausted now?

Until the next attack.
Which might be today to be honest.

[Skybird]

although you chose your own or Rand's ideas of what communism is.
Neither. The words I dressed it in at this opportnity, have been used many times before, by many others. Churchill for example used someting comparable.


It is just human nature that socialism and communism have never worked, and always led to dictatorship, poverty and misery. Indeed. Any ideology that is set up against the very nature of man, that ignores it, and violates the basic essence of what motivates man, is doomed to fail. One could as well command man to stop breathing in order to control CO2 emmissions. The goal may sound reasonable. But still, it will never work.

And governments will never know what people will want to do the next moment, what their ideas will be, their drives, their real or imagined needs. As complex, if not more, is the action on a free market - billions of decisons anbd motivations and interests and skills and abilktiiues and offerings beeing balanced against each other every day. As if by magic, the market, if left to itself, balances that, and straightens out the ups and lows. But beware of a bureaucratic genius claiming to know it better and being able to forsee what the market needs, and what should be wanted, and for what price! We better kill such a rotten mind immediately, or get our sprinting shoes on and run, run, run as long as we still can, for they are trying to prevent us from escaping their rule.

[Dowly]

Shots fired in a shopping centre in Munich:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36870874

Live reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/live/xatezzbcvxxy

[STEED]

Shots fired in a shopping centre in Munich:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36870874

Live reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/live/xatezzbcvxxy

Mad man or another crazy terrorist who cares, another dreadful incident. :nope:

[Oberon]

Until the next attack.
Which might be today to be honest.

Sadly, I think you're right. Anyway, that's it from me for now.

[Skybird]

Munich. Subways stopped, people are called to stay inside and avoid streets. Currently reports of a second shooting come in, from city centre.
No confirmed info on numbers of killed people, reports vary from1 to 15 dead. Second police operation running, attacker feared to be on escape run.
Cellphone media shown right now show that it is a majlr incident and total chaos.


This is a terror attack.

[Skybird]

Unconfirmed reports coming in that there are or have been multiple shootings simultaneously at 2, 3 or more locations.

Again:
UNCONFIRMED.

[Nippelspanner]

https://www.reddit.com/live/xatezzbcvxxy/updates/b4f6536e-5037-11e6-9255-0e9397ce2b89

Wow.

[Skybird]

Police confirms they are hunting three attackers at least. Earlier, witnesses said that at the shopping mall where it started they heard shots from three different positions.

Government office of Bavaria indirectly confirms at least three dead, probably more. "Very many injured", so it is further said in its release.

Reports of a second major attack at the centre, fortunately had been triggered by false alarms only.

Witnesses in Munich say that the police is acting extremely nervously. It seems they still have no real idea of the real scale, and what is actually going on. Witnesses say they are zigzagging back and forth across the city. They got reinforcements from all of Southern Germany, and special forces of the national police.

[Skybird]

Security circles now speak of "at least six dead". Police now also officially speaks of a "strong terror suspicion."

[Nippelspanner]

"Long rifles" spotted, it is officially a "terror situation" now.

And: "Reuters according to FAZ: Hospital workers being called in to help with wounded."
THAT sounds bad. Really, really bad.

[Schroeder]

I bet the shooters are Buddhists.

If they came with the refugees then Merkel needs to be put on trial for treason.

[danasan]

I bet the shooters are Buddhists.

If they came with the refugees than Merkel needs to be put on trial for treason.

Send her to Erdogan. They'd make a nice couple over there.

[mapuc]

I can only access information from my Danish News channel and what you post and link to here in this thread

According to some of the information I got from this news channel is

The perpetrator/terrorist has shot himself-If that's the case I wonder if its terror ´cause an Islamic terrorist use to blow them self up.

One to three perpetrator/terrorist has been reported

Reports of more shooting around the area(the speaker said some German words)

Edit:

I may not know much, this I do know though-
If it is Islamic terror that once again has hit Europe, then it is not islam we shall blame.
If it is some right wing freak-then EVERY right wing people has to be blamed.

Markus

[Catfish]

Seems he was a german who has been in medical and psychological treatment, so maybe not a terrorist but at least not a religiously motivated nutjob. Also think of Breivik's "motivation".
Still there is nothing really confirmed.

[Schroeder]

Seems he was a german who has been in medical and psychological treatment, so maybe not a terrorist but at least not a religiously motivated nutjob. Also think of Breivik's "motivation".
Still there is nothing really confirmed.
The "Tagesschau" site has nothing about a dead suspect...:hmm2:

[mapuc]

Seems he was a german who has been in medical and psychological treatment, so maybe not a terrorist but at least not a religiously motivated nutjob. Also think of Breivik's "motivation".
Still there is nothing really confirmed.

In a Danish News paper it said something like

Outside McDonalds there stood a man in Dark clothes suddenly he start shooting at the same time some other start shooting inside the Mall.

Markus

[Nippelspanner]

Reports really conflict heavily.
Lone wolf, 3 guys, pistols, rifles, dead already or not...

Let's wait and hope for the best.

[mapuc]

Reports really conflict heavily.
Lone wolf, 3 guys, pistols, rifles, dead already or not...

Let's wait and hope for the best.

Let me add this to this news conflict

(read it on a friends wall-She has seen it on CNN)

A muslim had told some news agency that some had taken aim at the children in the local McDonalds and shouted allahu Akbar and right thereafter start shooting at these children

Markus

[Nippelspanner]

My point was we may back down and just...wait.
Rumors and nonsense isn't helping.

[mapuc]

My point was we may back down and just...wait.
Rumors and nonsense isn't helping.

I couldn't agree more

So what do you all say, shall we "cool down" and await what has happened, how it had happened and who was behind

It may takes some hours or days before the authorities can give us information-solid information that is.

Markus

[Betonov]

Nothing solid from Slovene media.
They're probably getting info from German media so Skybird will know before they do.

[Skybird]

22:26 local time.

Officially the police still treats this as a case of terrorism, for what they need to do now - search anbds secruing - fits a terror scenario best. Units from all of Germany's south have been called to Munich, everything that was available, plus federal police, plus the GSG-9. Czech Republic has sealed the border, the Austrians are engaged in some way, too.

First program of state TV notoriously speaks of 3 suspects, one of which may have shot himself. They take "3" almost as granted

Second program of state TV notoriously speaks of 1 attacker who probably shot himself, but maybe, theoretically, 2 others on the run. But they take "1" almost as granted.

Both channels do not really report the story identically, therefore.

Police said clearly they have no indication for an Islamic background. Police further said that a radical right-wing background theoretically is possible, but unlikely, again: no hints for that.

Confirmed is that all alarms about shootings in other places of the city, were false alarms due to crowds panicking. Confirmed is that at the only one scene of shooting, that shopping mall, witnesses insist that there were shots from three different positions. Public transportation - train, subway, busses, taxis, everything - is in a total stop. And this in Munich, a tourist ressort. On a Friday night. In summer. :X

Its the biggest such police operation ever staged in post-war Germany.

[Skybird]

Numbers corrected. Police now counts 9 dead.

[Mittelwaechter]

Breivik - 07/22/2011 - five years ago

[eddie]

Unreal to see the video of the gunman, outside of McDonalds, just start shooting those people!:nope:

[Skybird]

Its possibly over. Police cautiously gives all clear signal. The dead corpus of an 18 year old Iranian with German papers that they found is now strongly assumed to be the attacker, and police now assumes he acted all alone. Busses drive again.

Possibly a mentally ill. He should have shouted that he was in psychiatric treatement, also yelling that he were German. There is a quite bizarr video of hiom on the roof of a parking house, exchanging offences and arguments with a resident who shouted at him out of his house window from a distance. - Surreal!

Nice lesson on the trustworthiness of witness accounts. "Three men with long guns." "Shots from three directions." "Shootings in other parts of the city."

[mapuc]

Its possibly over. Police cautiously gives all clear signal. The dead corpus of an 18 year old Iranian with German papers is now strongly assumed to be the attacker, and police now assumes he acted all alone.

Now the hard work for the German police and secret service start-finding out if he acted on order from Daesh or other terror group or own his own- inspired by Daesh/other or by himself

Or if he was psychological unstable

Markus

[eddie]

I am glad he is dead!!!:rock:

[Schroeder]

There is a quite bizarr video of hiom on the roof of a parking house, exchanging offences and arguments with a resident who shouted at him out of his house window from a distance. - Surreal!

The dude had time to film the whole thing over minutes and upload it on the net but did he care to inform the cops of the whereabouts of the attacker? Possibly not as none of them tried to stop him on the roof.:/\\!!

[Nippelspanner]

220
The dude had time to film the whole thing over minutes and upload it on the net but did he care to inform the cops of the whereabouts of the attacker? Possibly not as none of them tried to stop him on the roof.:/\\!!
Don't assume the worst.
He wasn't alone at his home, he or someone else might have contacted the cops while he was filming OR he started after contacting them.
You don't know... don't assume the worst when we already live in such times.

[Skybird]

Police now talks of an "amok background". The attacker was 18 years, student, held Iranian and German nationality with his family coming from Iran, lived in Munich since 2 years, and in his flat they found material and books about amok runs. He was in psychiatric therapy, in the press conference talk was of major depression.

His victims all but one were young: three were 14 years, two more were 15, one was 17, one was 19, and one was 20. The oldest victim was 45.

[Schroeder]

He was in psychiatric therapy, in the press conference talk was of major depression.

So what? I'm still recovering from a medium depression and never ever felt the urge to kill someone else. So the whole" he had a depression that made him do that" (just like with the Germanwings murder) is BS to me.:down:

[Skybird]

Easy there, Schroeder. "Depression" is a VERY wide field. And its a very mean thing. I now that from professional point of view - and from my family.

We are not talkign about the abuse of the term by the public, were it is almost chic to tell on telephone that last week "I had a depression", and "I feel depressed today".

Maybe it is a media cover up to hide that the guy was this or that. Like some media already have started to hide the Iranian background.

But if real major depression played a role here, then anything was possible. All the time while it could have been even more, a wrong diagnosis, or part of something else. It is unusual that depressive patients find the energy to turn violent against their environment, they more often turn violent against themselves, ironically just when their batteries have just charged a little bit again - before they had not sufficient power to hurt or kill themselves. Most depressives killing themselves during therapy, do so after they got medication and reported to feel better. I think in case of this Iranian-German, there probably was more, kind of hallucination, maybe an unfolding schizophrenia, paranoia, whatever.

This still needs explanation, however. The guy had books on amok runs in his flat, and from my way of arguing on religion, fanatically practiced or fundamentalist religion is a form of dementia in itself.

A link to the "jubilee" of the Breivik amok run also is possible as a motivational factor.

[Jimbuna]

I am glad he is dead!!!:rock:

So what? I'm still recovering from a medium depression and never ever felt the urge to kill someone else. So the whole" he had a depression that made him do that" (just like with the Germanwings murder) is BS to me.:down:

The only positive I can derive is the fact he is dead and won't be harming anyone ever again.

My condolences to the loved ones of those who were murdered.

[Skybird]

Police now says the attacker "was obsessed with Anders Breivik".

There is yet to be verified info on that the attacker intentionally lured his victims into the fastfood restaurant via an invitation he sent via a hacked facebook account. "I buy for you what you want, but not too expensive", the message should have read.

Doesn't sound too much like a "depression" to me, more like somethign different, maybe a personality disorder of any kind. A depressive has not the energy to prepare and invest. Delusions, paranoia, schizophrenia match better. But this is said from a long distance. Maybe he was treated on false grounds. Happens not rarely in abulant practice, and giving certain diagnosis sometimes gets avoided due to them beign considered as being "stigmatizing".

300 rounds of ammo in his Rucksack. He had high-flying plans. And btw, beside the dead, 21 injured.

[Dowly]

Screw depression and Breivik obsession! Media reports he also played VIDEO GAMES!

http://abload.de/img/rich8ij0s.gif

[Betonov]

Screw depression and Breivik obsession! Media reports he also played VIDEO GAMES!



That means that the risk of an attack comes from every European male under 35 and 3/4 of females under 35 :o

How many million is that ??

[Skybird]

Screw depression and Breivik obsession! Media reports he also played VIDEO GAMES!


Just published by FOCUS Germany:


Die Polizei geht derzeit Hinweisen nach, wonach der 18-Jährige womöglich ein Facebook (http://www.focus.de/thema/facebook/)-Profil hackte, um gezielt Opfer zu der McDonald's-Filiale zu locken, in der er begann, um sich zu schießen. "Wen sieht man heute alles im 16 Uhr im Meggi neben OEZ? Ich kann auch gerne spendieren", stand dort.

"Er hat uns immer wieder bedroht"

Wie die „Bild“ berichtet soll S. auch einen Account beim Online-Spiel „Steam“ gehabt haben. Dort war er unter Namen wie „Psycho“, „Bis ich keinen Sinn mehr sehe“, „Wir spielen dieses Spiel bis zum Tod“ und „Godlike“ angemeldet.
Die Zeitung beruft sich auf einen Schulfreund des Täters, demzufolge S. Mitspielern bei „Steam“ dazu aufgefordert haben soll, zur McDonald‘s-Filiale zu kommen.„Wir haben ihn vor über einem Jahr aus der Gruppe ausgeschlossen, weil er uns immer wieder bedroht hat“, sagte der ehemalige Freund der „Bild“. He was banned from the group of his former friends a year ago, becasue he repatedly threatened them, a former friend says. He had Steam and there acted under names like "Psycho", "Until I see no more meaning", "We play this game until death" and "Godlike". His FB account used a portrait of Breivik as avatar.

He should also have used his Steam account to lure his victims into the diner.

The more I hear, the more I sense serious personality development problems there. The parents and the atmosphere in the family must be carefully checked.

The sad thing about all this aftermath is that all focus is on the attacker, all curiosity and media interest. 9 victims dead, 21 injured - nobody cares. We must not pull them into the spotlights of the public, those surviving probably do not want that anyway. We just should question our priorities a bit, I think.

[Nippelspanner]

So what? I'm still recovering from a medium depression and never ever felt the urge to kill someone else. So the whole" he had a depression that made him do that" (just like with the Germanwings murder) is BS to me.:down:
And as someone who is experiencing rather severe depressions for ~2 years now, I completely agree.
Depressions don't make you want to hurt others, a "healthy" depressed person has no interest in harming others, ever.
The problem lies elsewhere.

[Nippelspanner]

Screw depression and Breivik obsession! Media reports he also played VIDEO GAMES!

http://abload.de/img/rich8ij0s.gif
During a press conference I heard one reporter ask that "they heard he played 'Ballerspiele' (derogatory term for ego-shooters that immediately identify you as someone who has no idea what he's talking about) is that true?"
I switched off at this point.

I mean, wat?
*police breaches apartment door and searches room*
"Ah, see here Fritz, we found ze computa and he plays ze counter-strike - notorious killa-game, you know!"
"Well, Hans, at least now we know wot caused him to do zat, case closed, ja!"

Irgh.

[Mittelwaechter]

Somewhat awkward for sure: a male online gamer Muslim immigrant takes over the clean conservative extremist-bio-German argumentation against Muslim immigrants and starts to follow his impulse.

[MaDef]

During a press conference I heard one reporter ask that "they heard he played 'Ballerspiele' (derogatory term for ego-shooters that immediately identify you as someone who has no idea what he's talking about) is that true?"
I switched off at this point.

I mean, wat?
*police breaches apartment door and searches room*
"Ah, see here Fritz, we found ze computa and he plays ze counter-strike - notorious killa-game, you know!"
"Well, Hans, at least now we know wot caused him to do zat, case closed, ja!"

Irgh.
LOL.... Here in the U.S. we pretty much debunked that argument back in the 90's, although there are some who still believe it.

simple fact is that killing for anything other than self defense or in defense
of another is wrong. Trying to "understand" the actions that lead up to these killings is nothing but an exercise in futility, since the reasons for these incidents are as myriad and varied as the killers themselves.

In other words, there are some people who just don't belong in society and there isn't a whole lot you can do to stop it and still retain any measure of individual freedom.

[Skybird]

A guy herein Germany commented on the killergame debate like this:

he referred to the fact that there are not only killergames, but also killerbooks and killerscriptures, for unknown reason these do not get criticised by politicians, especially when they are claimed to be "holy". - Also, there are killertrees and killerbranches, that were already used by young boys like Ceasar, Alexander, Napoleon and Kublai Khan to run around with in the forest and play legionaire and barbarian and hacking away at each other. We all know where this led. :D

German link: http://boess.welt.de/

During the football Euro, a netmum advised parents to not watch football with kids, for it teaches the little darlings competitive behaviour and applauding the one team, which might hurt the feelings of kid fans of the other team, also she does not want to give kids an example of that scoring goals can make you win a game, for games should be played with each other, not against each other. - God help her cute, sweet kids if they ever happen to cross my way, they might end up as spread on my bread, or dinner surprise during my next BBQ. :D I bet their meat will be especially delicious, soft and delicate, with a soft flavour of sensibility and unaggressiveness and no bitter taste at all.

Also, the attacker on Friday should have gotten his weapon via the darknet, illegally. That does not change the fact that once again German gun laws for legal owners should be tightened again. :88) - Germany already has the third or fourth tightest and strictest gun laws in the world. :dead:

The conditioned-reflex-brigade already has taken over again.

[Betonov]

If Call of duty makes people violent, what would the Horus Heresy series do to a persons mind :nope:











blood for the blood god

[Mittelwaechter]

Most aggression of online gamers must be observed directly after LAN-parties, I guess.

Them bathing in adrenaline and murderous intent, shoudn't the news of LAN-party massacres make more headlines?

Or do our rulers just miss the opportunity to control our perception, to take some of our liberties?

Snicker

[Nippelspanner]

Most aggression of online gamers must be observed directly after LAN-parties, I guess.

Them bathing in adrenaline and murderous intent, shoudn't the news of LAN-party massacres make more headlines?

Or do our rulers just miss the opportunity to control our perception, to take some of our liberties?

Snicker
Also, if they must target games, they target the wrong ones.
Counter-Strike? Pff
Ego-Shooters in general never ever made me rage anything like FIFA, or worse: Top Spin 2.

My blood pressure still rises when I remember some TS2 sessions. :shifty:

[eddie]

Syrian asylum seeker kills woman and injures two other with a machete in Germany.:nope: Authorities don't believe it was terror related though. He was known to the police. I would say that his application for asylum might not be granted now. Don't throw him in prison, throw him from a plane over Syria, from 10,000 feet, that should do it I would think!

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/syrian-asylum-seeker-kills-one-wounds-two-german-machete-attack-n615751

[Oberon]

At least the Turk got him.

[Mittelwaechter]

^^ Something for your nerves? It's an ego-walker...

http://www.tale-of-tales.com/TheGraveyard/trial/TheGraveyardTrial_1.1_Windows.zip

Free Trial!

MinReq: XP, dedicated graphics card (Radeon/GeForce) Keyboard/Joystick, a few MB space...

Soundtrack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2xTV8m71VE

5 Credits for the killer version.

:DL

[Nippelspanner]

Syrian asylum seeker kills woman and injures two other with a machete in Germany.:nope:
Cultural enrichment™.

[Catfish]

Everytime i play Rise of Flight, afterwards i take off in my Halberstadt, and am the terror of the Hannover skies :O:

[Mittelwaechter]

Don't throw him in prison, throw him from a plane over Syria, from 10,000 feet, that should do it I would think!


Your fathers taught the German Nazis, that's not a proper way to deal with humans.
Some died for it - to make the world a better place. They shall never be forgotten.

And now you show up with this advice?

[eddie]

You don't have to read my posts homeboy, guess you feel nothing for that poor woman who lost her life do you! Most of your posts don't make any sense to anyone, so I wouldn't talk too damned loud!:haha:

[Oberon]

Interesting that so little is made of the man who stopped the attacker. :hmmm:

[Betonov]

Interesting that so little is made of the man who stopped the attacker. :hmmm:

Fear of revenge by other nutjobs ??

[Schroeder]

Interesting that so little is made of the man who stopped the attacker. :hmmm:
It seems the media tries to keep this one low. There is nothing on Tageschschau.de at all about the case (one of the most reliable German news sources). My guess is that people aren't supposed to hear about Muslims committing violent crimes in Germany anymore unless it can't be kept under wraps anymore....but that's just me being a bitter old man.....crap and I'm physically only 34....:/\\!!

[Oberon]

Fear of revenge by other nutjobs ??

Ah, the guy was a Turk, he should be used to nutjobs by now. :03:

[Betonov]

Ah, the guy was a Turk, he should be used to nutjobs by now. :03:

Oh my, muslim saving non muslims from a muslim

[Oberon]

Oh my, muslim saving non muslims from a muslim

From what I've read, the woman was Polish and the Syrian guys co-worker at the kebab shop, they got into a massive row and the Syrian guy got the knife he uses to cut the kebab to stab her, and others nearby, and at this point the Turkish guy was passing in his BMW and swerved over to hit the Syrian with his car and stop the attack.

[Betonov]

:nope:

They should set up a place and date if they want to kill eachother like we used to do and just let them.

[Mittelwaechter]

You don't have to read my posts homeboy, guess you feel nothing for that poor woman who lost her life do you! Most of your posts don't make any sense to anyone, so I wouldn't talk too damned loud!:haha:


Giving useless advice/commands, assuming and diagnosing into the blue, projecting ones character and abilities onto others?

Revealing performance.

At least your kindness shines through your postings.

But I give you that: of course not anyone understands my postings. Some brains is necessary.

[Skybird]

That Syrian is a 21 years old asylum seeker and was known to the police for previous incidents and violence shown. The women he killed should have been pregnant. He was so nuts that he should even have chased after a police car, swinging his machete at it until another, private driver decided to take him out and rammed him with his car.

Munich two days ago. Before that the terror attack with an axe on a family in a train at Würzburg. Yesterday, a drunken man in a train in Northern Germany ticked off and attacked/threatened several passengers with a knife. Now this. Is there a virus in the wild, or what...?!

[Oberon]

Munich two days ago. Before that the terror attack with an axe on a family in a train at Würzburg. Yesterday, a drunken man in a train in Northern Germany ticked off and attacked/threatened several passengers with a knife. Now this. Is there a virus in the wild, or what...?!

I dunno what it's like in Germany at the moment but in the UK it's bloody hot, and that always tends to bring out the best side in humanity. A few days ago at Hyde Park there was an inpromptu water-gun fight which ended up with three people being stabbed and the riot police called in. It's also no co-incidence that the 2011 riots happened on hot August nights, and then stopped when it started raining.

[Sailor Steve]

A couple of people need to take a couple of steps back.

He who makes his posts too personal may find himself not posting at all for a time.

[Nippelspanner]

That Syrian is a 21 years old asylum seeker and was known to the police for previous incidents and violence shown.
This is what I don't understand. :nope:
Why do we tolerate such garbage in a civilized country?
Why won't we, with zero tolerance, get rid of oxygen thieves like that?

Brace yourselves though, these incidents will rise more and more.
Mark my words.

[Wamiduku]

Brace yourselves though, these incidents will rise more and more.
Mark my words.
Here are some chilling numbers from Sweden for you:

Out of the 260000 asylum seekers who have arrived here since 2014 (that's 2.6% of the population btw), 85000 live in asylum homes. So far this year, the press has reported 6 murders at those homes. I have no way of knowing if there have been more murders, as the press is reluctant to report anything negative about people from the countries in question.

The average number of murders per year in Sweden is about 1 per 100000 people, which is about the European average. So, 6 murders in 8 months, in a group of 85000 is really, really bad compared to Sweden's average of 1 in 12 months in a group of 100000.

Link (in Swedish) to mainstream media, to prove that I'm not making up the numbers: http://www.svd.se/asylkoping--ett-katastrofomrade

The journalist who wrote this article had to close his Twitter account, due to attacks from the loud and violent left wing journalists and their followers. It's a miracle that he's not been fired yet. If you link to his writings on you Facebook page, be prepared to have people "unfriending" you, if you live in Sweden.

[mapuc]

Here are some chilling numbers from Sweden for you:

Out of the 260000 asylum seekers who have arrived here since 2014 (that's 2.6% of the population btw), 85000 live in asylum homes. So far this year, the press has reported 6 murders at those homes. I have no way of knowing if there have been more murders, as the press is reluctant to report anything negative about people from the countries in question.

The average number of murders per year in Sweden is about 1 per 100000 people, which is about the European average. So, 6 murders in 8 months, in a group of 85000 is really, really bad compared to Sweden's average of 1 in 12 months in a group of 100000.

Link (in Swedish) to mainstream media, to prove that I'm not making up the numbers: http://www.svd.se/asylkoping--ett-katastrofomrade

The journalist who wrote this article had to close his Twitter account, due to attacks from the loud and violent left wing journalists and their followers. It's a miracle that he's not been fired yet. If you link to his writings on you Facebook page, be prepared to have people "unfriending" you, if you live in Sweden.

Then I can tell you, here in Denmark, the readers or TV viewer are being told everything nothing is withhold us. Even survey that shows bad things like 95 % of bodily harm crime have been committed by foreigners are being told.
A Danish person who are reading a news paper or watching the news may here "Copenhagen police are looking for two Moroccan brothers for attempted murder "(and there will be a picture of them)

Markus

[Penguin]

Germany doen't get much rest this weekend: explosion in Ansbach, Bavaria, 1 dead, 11 injured, that's the best English source atm: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36880758

The article got it wrong about the bar explosion, as it happened just next to the entrance of the festival which some 2000 folks attended.

I'd be glad to delete this post in case it was "only" some local crime, but it doesn't look like this momentarily.
There are many US military facilities around Ansbach, so if many Americans attended this festival, this could have been an additional motivation for the target.

[Penguin]

I dunno what it's like in Germany at the moment but in the UK it's bloody hot, and that always tends to bring out the best side in humanity. A few days ago at Hyde Park there was an inpromptu water-gun fight which ended up with three people being stabbed and the riot police called in. It's also no co-incidence that the 2011 riots happened on hot August nights, and then stopped when it started raining.

That's the weather here atm. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpktBGInl60)
It was also my theory during the past days that the weather plays a part. Just driving here feels like most drivers are adjusting to Mumbai road behaviour. So the woman who smashed into the bastard in Reutlingen might just be a typical BMW driver without an air condition...
(jk, she's a hero)

[Mittelwaechter]

It's pretty unfair to concentrate potentially traumatized 85 000 asylum seekers into some camps and expect them to behave like the regular population.

Can you imagine a little spark could set an explosion, you living with five people - strangers - in a room of 25 sqm - after fleeing your home - for 18 months? Imagine you are in - um - Hungary. Strange language, the people are not happy to have you, some threat you with molotov cocktails...

And imagine Hungary to be the country responsible for your fleeing. They hired a few thousand extremist Ukrainians, to support your 10% left-wing party opposition to violently topple your government, by stirring up the whole society, shooting and killing civilians, establishing a Free Euro-Ukrainian State in your country.

And the Russians and Chinese help them... Merkel/May/Hollande/Löfven has to go!

And Google translate tells you, a clever Hungarian politician has asked for sending back at least all the men, to make them fight for their country.

[Wamiduku]

It's pretty unfair to concentrate potentially traumatized 85 000 asylum seekers into some camps and expect them to behave like the regular population.
So you basically say that if we let them in, then murder and violence is what we can expect.

Strange language, the people are not happy to have you, some threat you with molotov cocktails...
That left wing propaganda about fires in Swedish asylum homes has been disproved. 89% of those 180 fires started inside the homes. In other words: there were very few external arsonists. Most fires were because asylum seekers torched the homes themselves.

Reference: http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=83&artikel=6452483

[August]

Another attack in Germany.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36880758

[Mittelwaechter]

So you basically say that if we let them in, then murder and violence is what we can expect.

If we deny them a more human life style, with proper treatment of their conditions - yes. These are no healthy normal guests visiting Sweden/Germany for a summer vacation. They fled from violence, because they were exposed to it.

We are aware of the fact, that exposing people to extreme violent situations may change their behaviour. Our own soldiers suffer from it.

Treating them badly, crowd them, calling them names, showing them disrespect, expecting too much from them in a short time doesn't better the condition and may lead to unexpected reactions. These are people - human beings.


That left wing propaganda about fires in Swedish asylum homes has been disproved. 89% of those 180 fires started inside the homes. In other words: there were very few external arsonists. Most fires were because asylum seekers torched the homes themselves.

Reference: http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=83&artikel=6452483

I was not talking abourt your left wing or right wing. I don't know enough about the according situation in Sweden. I just tried to give you a more personal, self affected imagination. Certain Germans tend to use the cocktails more often.

[Reece]

These are people - human beings.

From the way they behave I'd say not, they're Muslims and Muslims only tolerate Muslims, they'll kill anyone else given the chance!:-?

[Mittelwaechter]

From the way they behave I'd say not, they're Muslims and Muslims only tolerate Muslims, they'll kill anyone else given the chance!:-?

This contradicts my experience totally. I felt well treated, very well indeed. I am no Muslim. None of them ever tried to kill me.

Obviously we have met different milieus of their society.

[Reece]

Like 9/11 for example!:yep:

To be fair there are some good Muslims, take the latest attacks in Afghanistan (Kabul), they are fighting each other, mostly the problem is with ISIS they are not Muslims just terrorists.

[Skybird]

While Merkel has taught us that a sovereign state has no right to protect its borders, and that the constitutional duty of the German government to protect its citizens must not be obeyed, after Ansbach we now learn that we have no right to discriminate between asylum seekers and to freely decide ourselves whom we accept or not, because if we do not accept that somebody's request for asylum must already be our command, then... You've been warned!

This is a form of blackmailing. Like fleeing into churches to evade police extractions of refused asylum seekers, hunger strikes, and squatting is blackmailing, too.

You have no automatic right for asylum. You are only allowed to ask. You have no claim that the answer must be "Yes". And no matter what they say - there cannot be a "human right" for asylum.

The proper way to announce the rejection of asylum? Have the asylum seeker and his complete family - mandatorily, no excuses accepted: I mean it it an important date, or not? - in an office and telling him there whether his request has been accepted or rejected, and then immediately and without delay release him into police custody, having the police leading him/them out of that office and then off to the airport or wherever. - No chance to run away and hide in anonymity.

[Skybird]

Like 9/11 for example!:yep:
London. Madrid. Paris, repeatedly. Brussel, repeatedly. And that is just Europe.

There have been dozens of attacks already in Europe in the years and decades before 9/11. And then there are the attacks on synagogues that are not committed by rightwingers, but Muhammeddans.

Then the Islamic attacks on Western tourists in tourist ressorts outside Europe.

Thank Allah everybody that Muslim ideology motivating this has nothing to do with it, for Allah is all-knowing and merciful. What does not kill you, makes you pray - that was Muhammad's idea at least, and look how well it worked over the centuries.

[Skybird]

Small point: in the night there was a press conference. BBC and CNN reported live. Neither first nor second channel of TV state propaganda broadcasters were present, so no coverage. And for that we need to pay a head-tax, no matter whether we have technical devices that can receive their programs or not!

[Nippelspanner]

It's pretty unfair to concentrate potentially traumatized 85 000 asylum seekers into some camps and expect them to behave like the regular population.
If their circumstances are so miserable, they are free to leave and go back 24/7 - but yeah, poor poor refugees who have warm shelter, food and everything else they need to live for free.
How dare we to expect them not to commit MURDER! :o :timeout:
Also, if we wouldn't accept "refugees" from North Africa (these cause the most problems, by far), the circumstances for the REAL refugees, mainly Syrians, would be better as well,
but since we even take in the worst scum, we now pay the price, bit by bit.


Can you imagine a little spark could set an explosion, you living with five people - strangers - in a room of 25 sqm - after fleeing your home - for 18 months? Imagine you are in - um - Hungary. Strange language, the people are not happy to have you, some threat you with molotov cocktails...You are absolutely right.
Let's do the only logical thing and commit murder, rape or attack random people. Oh and steal everything that isn't nailed to the floor.

You apologists start to become worse than the actual perpetrators - since this behavior will only prolong the problems, it won't solve them.
Only actions can save Europe at this point.

[Skybird]

You are wasting your time, Nippelspanner. ;) Just saying. Left do-gooders like him always know it better, and will never question themselves, and will always find an excuse to blame it all on the West that they despise so much. Even if it feeds them and has created the freedom they now abuse, or carelessly waste and give away. And maybe that they still live at the West's cost, get fed and nursed and financed by it, and can exist only due to it, is what they hate more than anything else.

Its all our fault. The other is necessarily better, because he is not us. No matter how much we do, it never will be good enough.

Or compressed and in plain English: "I demand you to pay for my bills. You are responsible for my faults, and you are to supply what I want but cannot afford, for I suck in building a basis like you have done. You perform better, and that's why you are evil and I am your victim. And so you are responsible for my well-being.,"

[Catfish]

;) A little twist ^:

You are wasting your time. Just saying. The right hard-liners like Skybird always know it better, and will never question themselves, and will always find an excuse to blame it all on the Muslims that they despise so much.

Even if the past "left" action has created the freedom they now despise, or carelessly waste and give away due to the Wutbuerger mentality. They still harvest what trade unions and health insurance funds managed to do for the common man, against the ruling class, relaxing on the laurels others fought for.

Its all their fault. Call it the Left, Muslims, Turks, Jews, the other is necessarily worse, because he is not us. No matter how much they do, it never will be good enough.

Or compressed and in plain English: I demand them to pay for the faults I have done in the past. The muslims are responsible for my faults and my creating of borders, and me exploiting their resources, for my wars I fought in their countries destroying their cities, economy and infrastructure, and they are to care for those nutjobs and terrorists who don't like that, like every christian instantly stops any other christian who does wrong, and instantly slaps them, when they are doing something against international law, or perform terrorist actions.

Or do they? :hmmm:

[Skybird]

So clever you are, aren't you, wordgames, rethorics and all that. Just no argument that is in line with the written basics of a certain scripture, the motivation it unfolds in the minds of legions of people and since centuries that made already their forefathers to get stuck in barbarian times that us guilty Westerners have left behind since long. As if it would have taken the evil wicked Westerners to mess those places up that first where conquered by Islam and then torn apart in an endless civil war-like feud, and second where tribal primitives already hacked their heads off long before Muhammad arrived - and they still settle old bills and scores for that, until today. Something that affects most of Africa as well, btw.

Maybe you think you have an argument there, but you haven't. What you have, is called a hobby. The hobby of objecting - for the mere purpose of objecting, even if that means to object the obvious.

The world is so full of clever Dicks these days. And almost all of them are experts for selective cherry-picking.

Okay, your turn again. Turn words in my mouth or do whatever else you think is clever or funny. And do not get distracted by reality too much - for that would not really help your cause.

[Wamiduku]

If we deny them a more human life style, with proper treatment of their conditions - yes. [...]

Treating them badly, crowd them,
I see that you have not a single link to support your claims. My claim is that you're lying and I'll back that up with links (you'll need Google translate, because they're in Swedish).

1) Proper treatment

Treatment is much cheaper for asylum seekers than for Swedes. In fact, many Swedish pensioners suffer in pain, because dental care is too expensive (Swedish state TV: http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=78&artikel=5184766). Immigrants OTOH, illegal or not, will get their treatment payed by the tax payers: (official authorities article: http://www.1177.se/Stockholm/Regler-och-rattigheter/Vard-i-Sverige-om-man-ar-asylsokande). So, we deny out own pensioners the treatment that we almost give away (SEK 50:- = EUR 5:-) to foreigners.

Actually, in order to give foreigners more resources, some Swedes no longer get proper treatment of their conditions:


Meeting places for the elderly and those with mental issues will be shut down.
Home care visits for 75-79 year olds will stop.
Less home care generally
Fewer slots for the elderly at care homes.
The elderly and handicapped will get less help to participate in activities


Link: http://www.sydsvenskan.se/2015-11-16/malmos-stadsomraden-bloder-pengar-

2) Crowd them

According to official statistics 357812 (http://www.migrationsverket.se/Om-Migrationsverket/Statistik.html and http://www.migrationsverket.se/download/18.2d998ffc151ac3871598173/1460036885615/Asyls%C3%B6kande+till+Sverige+2000-2015.pdf) have arrived since 2012. That's more than 3.6% of the total Swedish population. As a comparison, Sweden's 3rd largest city, Malmö, has 280000 inhabitants. Even if we had duplicated our 3rd largest city in 3½ years, it would be crowded because we would lack space for 357k-280k = 77000 people. And we have not duplicated any large city in 3½ years, because building large cities takes more than 3½ years.

What's you suggestion for less crowding of a number of asylum seekers that is larger than our 3rd largest city - kick out the Swedes from our homes?

The route that Swedish municipalities are taking, is to let foreigners get priority in the queue system for apartments. So, people who have been waiting for many years for an apartment won't get one because of their Swedish nationality, while foreigners will just slide past them in queue. Just because they're foreigners. Link: http://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/skane/kommuner-vill-ha-snabbspar-for-nyanlanda-i-bostadskon

Also, the elderly are kicked out of nursing homes to make space for foreigners. In the first link, we're talking about 90 year olds:
http://www.gp.se/nyheter/v%C3%A4stsverige/90-%C3%A5ringar-tvingas-flytta-fr%C3%A5n-sina-l%C3%A4genheter-1.162680
http://www.op.se/jamtland/are/aldreboendet-i-kall-kan-bli-hem-for-ensamkommande-flyktingbarn

calling them names, showing them disrespect, expecting too much from them in a short time doesn't better the condition and may lead to unexpected reactions. These are people - human beings.

So, greeting them with "Refugees Welcome" banners at the train station is reason for them to commit murders and gang rapes? Obvious trolling.

Swedes are human beings too. This is a transcript of the Green Party leader's speech: https://www.mp.se/just-nu/asa-romsons-almedalstal-2014. I hope the 9th paragraph translates OK in Google, because there she says that white, heterosexual men are not humans. Did that name calling make us kill people?

The Swedish prime minister basically called Swedes barbarians, while sucking up to arabs in the Ronna ghetto. Link: http://www.dn.se/nyheter/politik/reinfeldt-det-ursvenska-ar-blott-barbari/ Again, did that send Swedish murder rates sky rocketing towards the level of asylum seeker murder rates?

I don't know enough about the according situation in Sweden.
That is very obvious.

To other readers:
Please note that all my claims are backed up by links (to accepted news and official sources, not to extremist sites - verify them if you doubt me), whereas Mittelwachter so far has been incapable of posting one single link to substantiate one single claim he makes.

Thus, Hitchen's razor can be applied to Mittelwachter's posts: "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor).

[Nippelspanner]

The idiot who blew himself up in Ansbach is confirmed to have pledged allegiance to ISIS.

So it starts...

[Sailor Steve]

A general warning:

Arguments are good. Heated arguments are okay. Name-calling is not. Just because you believe someone is wrong, claiming he is lying is not a good arguing tactic. Please keep it civil.

[Schroeder]

A general warning:

Arguments are good. Heated arguments are okay. Name-calling is not. Just because you believe someone is wrong, claiming he is lying is not a good arguing tactic. Please keep it civil.
He's not claiming, he's proving.:shifty:

The idiot who blew himself up in Ansbach is confirmed to have pledged allegiance to ISIS.

So it starts...
Can't be true. We all know that no terrorists will enter Germany using the refugees for cover.:/\\!!:/\\!!:/\\!!

[Nippelspanner]

A general warning:

Arguments are good. Heated arguments are okay. Name-calling is not. Just because you believe someone is wrong, claiming he is lying is not a good arguing tactic. Please keep it civil.

He's not claiming, he's proving.:shifty:
That's how I understood it as well.
Sure, to claim someone is lying does sound ugly at first... but if it is the case, why not say it, as long as facts are provided to back things up, Steve?

[HunterICX]

I think Steve is referring to -

The world is so full of clever Dicks these days. And almost all of them are experts for selective cherry-picking.

[Nippelspanner]

I think Steve is referring to -
Why did he mention lying then? :hmmm:

[Skybird]

A general warning:

Arguments are good. Heated arguments are okay. Name-calling is not. Just because you believe someone is wrong, claiming he is lying is not a good arguing tactic. Please keep it civil.
Just in case you mean "clever Dick" - that is the translation I got for "Schlaumeier", "Besserwisser" - meaning a super-witty know-it-all. I got that translation already over 30 years ago at school, my English teacher was half-American, she lived there for 20 years, and all her family was and I assume still is there, so she knew your language a bit. But it is also in the book-dictonary I have. And in the internet dictionaries I know as well. I cannot see anything offensive in that term. Note the name is used as a name, not as a noun for you know what.

And Schlaumeier, Schlauberger was exactly the term I meant.

[HunterICX]

Why did he mention lying then? :hmmm:

My bad, just red Wamiduku's post and opening sentence.

Was still catching up with the thread.

[Sailor Steve]

He's not claiming, he's proving.:shifty:
Proving somebody is wrong is not the same as proving he's intentionally lying. And it doesn't matter. Calling somebody a liar, whether true or not, is still resorting to name calling, and is still not allowed.

Period.

[Dowly]

Liar is name calling?

Really now? :)

[Nippelspanner]

Liar is name calling?

Really now? :)
:subsim:

[Sailor Steve]

Liar is name calling?

Really now? :)
Yes. It has happened before, with resulting action taken by Neal himself.

As I said, keep it civil.

[Catfish]

What Skybird writes are mostly opinion pieces, like this last one, not evidence.
Regarding a "Schlaumeier" who selfrighteously claims to know it all, look into the mirror. Quoting Ayn Rand what capitalism is or is not, does not prove to be evidence.

[Mittelwaechter]

Like 9/11 for example!:yep:

All Muslims attacked the US on 9/11? Or was it a group of certain civilians, motivated to take revenge for some US action?

Do we have highly motivated civilians, willing to kill Muslims, because some did evil things? Are they keeping their feet close, because we send troops to do the job?

_________________________

A nation mistreating its own population has a problem. This problem intensifies, if the nation adds more population.
But the root of the problem is not the population here, but the nation treating the population wrong.
Can everybody prove it to himself, just by using his own brain? Do I need some back up from some clever media?

Most data to prove a concept taken from any entity with an agenda is subject to interpretation.
Common facts are a good base for discussions, but abused statistics and prepared data to support a political statement are supporting the political statement by default.
“But my politics are of course better than yours! You are totally wrong informed, my information is way better than yours!”

The media is paid for creating perception, reality and motivation. Wherever we are not in person, some experts are entitled to tell us their interpretation of truth.
We may believe or not. We tend to trust our preferred expert, especially if we have been taught for decades he would never ever lie to us.
The internet caused the “Lügenpresse”, because we are able to uncover the lies. The classical media is in trouble, the believers start to distrust.
Do I have to find some back up for this? Or do you realize by yourself what happens around you?

My media expert will create motivation for my followers, your media expert creates motivation for your followers.
The followers may have intense discussions, who's paid manipulators are the better ones. Believers in religious online-wars, engaged to support their god.

Please use your own brain. Learn to distrust your “information”, designed for your indignation management. Try to get these media priests out of your heads.

Divide et impera works by ruling through deviding the people - make them fight, distrust, hate each other.
If the people would just react on their first person reality - created by their own personal experience, the wrong treatment of population would be history.
We don't need more agitatiors, hatemongers and hooray patriots. We need mediators, teachers (of facts) and more critical thinking to live in peace. If this is something to be desired of course.

So insisting on providing some motivational data is not desirable, because we all see our own motivators to be the correct ones.
That's why we chose them to be our motivators. There is a feed back loop. We see the world we want to see it - and our preferred media shows us the world we want to look at it.

Consequently the discussions of links are endless, the only possible end is “agree to disagree”, for those who already know the true truth - provided by their motivators. A waste of lifetime.

So let's keep it civilised and let's use common sense. There is some data available we do agree upon.
I.e.: Soldiers are trained for violence, but may suffer from it afterwards. Does your motivator agree or disagree? Do you have to agree or disagree?
Or do we share this knowledge and are we consequently able to project it on civilians and violence? Could this explain the unexpected behaviour?
I think so. My opinion. No motivator around to prove my statement. It's my statement.

As it is my statement “refugees are attacked with Molotov cocktails”. This is common knowledge I hope. If this can be proven wrong - please do so. But the “pyromenes facts” don't contradict the statement.
They add some now common knowledge. The fire senations in Swedish refugee's shelters have several different reasons.

As I said before - I don't talk about any Swedish situation in special, but the general situation for us and the immigrants/refugees in Europe and their homelands.
But now I talk about Sweden: I think (with my pretty limited grade of background information) Sweden tries to bite more than it can chew. Why dare I to have an opinion on it?

I know there are only about 10 mio Swedes. They have some sort of national stigma - something like “didn't fulfil the own expectations on nobility, by refusing to help enough refugees in Nazi times.”
Now history repeating, the motivation to defend the noble values clashes with the fear to suffer from indentity loss by strangers. The Swedish society might change totally. The numbers of refugees are too high. I do agree - my personal opinion - based on my observation, the Germans face a similar problem for decades: a feeling of guilt has to be overcompensated by showing the total opposite former behaviour.

The European/Western problem is quite similar, but we are Janus-faced. We attack their homelands, but tell everywhere we are noble minded.
So we have to offer help - but a huge part of our own society is in fear to do it. Too many strangers, acting weird, wrong religion, the money.
We should help our poor first! Nobody cared for them before, but now we realize a problem. The nation is dealing wrong with some population.

Our tendency for generalization doesn't help either.

No certain media motivator generates my motivation to support my statements, but my own observations, some undisputed facts and some common sense.
Hard to find some motivator's quotes for me. I can offer links to some undisputed quotes. I like to assume you are of certain education and we share a certain amount of common facts.
All other causal consequences of my arguments are constucted by me. They represent my opinion and not the generated opinion of any motivator.

So is it possible to have an unemotional discussion? Critical personal thinking - own opinion - connecting facts and common sense? Without hate and agitation?
Civilized discussion on a certain niveau - or dull reaffirmation of peer believes?

[Aktungbby]

Yes. It has happened before, with resulting action taken by Neal himself.

As I said, keep it civil.:Kaleun_Smile: and smile!https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/Virginian-029.jpghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSFJdbqYiTc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSFJdbqYiTc)

[mapuc]

Here is what I don't dislike

Muslim or other refugees/immigrants that behave and respect the written laws and the unwritten laws in our society(Denmark and Sweden)

What I dislike

Is fanatical Muslims, our lying politicians who have the biggest guilt for have created this situation.

Mittelwaechter I have lived in Sweden for more than 30 years and I still have relatives living there-My mom, two sister, so what Wamiduku wrote is correct.

What he may have forgot is-You better be careful who you discuss the official refugee poltics with-It's something you only discuss with friends you can rely on 110 %. and do not tell that you support SD-that could make you unemployed

Sweden is a democratic country-that is not when it comes to refugees/immigrants then there is some kind of censorship. The political and the cultural elites are doing everything to withheld the public information at almost any cost. The only way a person can get some kind of correct information about the refugee problems is to read news from outside the mainstream media.

My mon is over 75 and she has to pay almost full price at the dentist or for getting new glasses and about 200 Skr for a visit to the doctor while a refugee legal or illegal only has to pay 50 Skr to whatever it may be regarding healthcare.

Markus

[Mittelwaechter]

Here is what I don't dislike

Muslim or other refugees/immigrants that behave and respect the written laws and the unwritten laws in our society(Denmark and Sweden)

What I dislike

Is fanatical Muslims, our lying politicians who have the biggest guilt for have created this situation.

Mittelwaechter I have lived in Sweden for more than 30 years and I still have relatives living there-My mom, two sister, so what Wamiduku wrote is correct.

What he may have forgot is-You better be careful who you discuss the official refugee poltics with-It's something you only discuss with friends you can rely on 110 %. and do not tell that you support SD-that could make you unemployed

Sweden is a democratic country-that is not when it comes to refugees/immigrants then there is some kind of censorship. The political and the cultural elites are doing everything to withheld the public information at almost any cost. The only way a person can get some kind of correct information about the refugee problems is to read news from outside the mainstream media.

My mon is over 75 and she has to pay almost full price at the dentist or for getting new glasses and about 200 Skr for a visit to the doctor while a refugee legal or illegal only has to pay 50 Skr to whatever it may be regarding healthcare.

Markus

Some first class, first hand information here, Mapuc.

Would you agree, it takes time, money and special treatment to teach other people?
Like children - maybe adopted children from Africa?

Can we expect them to understand our laws and Do's and Don'ts, if we don't train them to understand them? Is it useful to keep them away, put them in a nice childrens room and leave them alone most of the time? Some are hurt and have psychological problems too.


I'm totally stunned to hear the problems the Swedes have to bear.
We are told, Sweden is a wonderful democracy, with happy people living there.
I could find media links stating, the Scandinavian people are amongst the happiest people of the world. This has been told in the media for several years now repetitively. No link necessary I hope.

Swedes are not free to discuss these problems in public? The nation is treating its population wrong here I guess. But it is a democracy and the people could vote for a different treatment - different politicians? Or is the democracy in Sweden somehow flawed too?

I'm truly sorry for your mom. Are you somehow able to support her?

I fear at least 40% of our society in Germany will have to face these problems soon. This was true, before any refugees arrived here. So it may be even worse.
Some do have these problems already.

I constantly try to explain our problems come from our politics, the way we live and don't care for each other. We care for money, not people.

[mapuc]

Some first class, first hand information here, Mapuc.

Would you agree, it takes time, money and special treatment to teach other people?
Like children - maybe adopted children from Africa?

Can we expect them to understand our laws and Do's and Don'ts, if we don't train them to understand them? Is it useful to keep them away, put them in a nice childrens room and leave them alone most of the time? Some are hurt and have psychological problems too.


I'm totally stunned to hear the problems the Swedes have to bear.
We are told, Sweden is a wonderful democracy, with happy people living there.
I could find media links stating, the Scandinavian people are amongst the happiest people of the world. This has been told in the media for several years now repetitively. No link necessary I hope.

Swedes are not free to discuss these problems in public? The nation is treating its population wrong here I guess. But it is a democracy and the people could vote for a different treatment - different politicians? Or is the democracy in Sweden somehow flawed too?

I'm truly sorry for your mom. Are you somehow able to support her?

I fear at least 40% of our society in Germany will have to face these problems soon. This was true, before any refugees arrived here. So it may be even worse.
Some do have these problems already.

I constantly try to explain our problems come from our politics, the way we live and don't care for each other. We care for money, not people.

I do agree on that people coming from other countries like Africa have some special needs and are in need of special training to be a good citizens or how to behave in our society.

But I disagree when it comes to cut away the most basale welfare for our children and our elder-
Let me give you an example from Denmark-A municipality Nyborg-Last year we could read that they had to cut down on certain welfare for the elder living in that town and some cutbacks for the children. There weren't any money available politicians said.

Some month later we could read that the same municipality had bought several houses for millions of Danish Kroner-They was bought for the Refugees that was on it's way.

A Journalist asked the mayor of the city why this different-His reply-because the law says so-the refugees/immigrants comes before the ordinary Danish people

Lets go back to Sweden
My mon is doing well, why I mentioned here, is because she has ,as all the rest of the ordinary Swedish people or elder, to pay almost full price for things in the Swedish healthcare

Sweden and Denmark has also huge problems with some refugees that behave badly or are very unthankful-if ain't the food, or the house/apartment, then there is something else they are very dissatisfied with

Both in Sweden and in Denmark we have been told we can expect huge cutbacks on welfare.

by the way-I'm with Eddie and some other debatters in this thread-a refugee or an immigrant who commit crimes while his or her application for asylum is pending-he or she should be kicked out of the country he or she is trying to get access to.

Markus

[Betonov]

We have an immigrant from Ghana, he is a mayor of Piran for the last few years. Admited, this one is university educated and a doctor.
We have another one from one of the former French colonies, he causes no problems, pays taxes, learns slovene and is a garbage man and when they pick up the trash at the pub he loudly greets the patrons sitting outside before the truck drives off. Everyone loves him.

One is a law abiding white collar immigrant from Africa, one is a law abiding blue collar immigrant from Africa and both should set the bar on integration and behavior for immigrants.
Anything less, any resistance to integration and they should be kicked out. And they are evidence that a culture shock can be overcome in a reasonable time.

Some people deserve to be here, some people don't. Time to stop wasting money on people that don't. People that do deserve to be here are contributors anyway.

[Mittelwaechter]

But I disagree when it comes to cut away the most basale welfare for our children and our elder ... There weren't any money available politicians said.


So were does all the money accumulate, missing for the own poor people?
Do we use it to help other poor people - or do we use it to give it to people who have too much money already? Who collects all the money? Some poor and some other poor - or some rich, not knowing where to put all the money?

Some month later we could read that the same municipality had bought several houses for millions of Danish Kroner-They was bought for the Refugees that was on it's way.

So someone was able to create your perception of money flow here. The missing money for the elder and children suddenly showed up and was invested into refugees shelters.
Were did this money come from? Who controls its purpose?
The refugees? The voting citizens? The politicians? Someone else?

A Journalist asked the mayor of the city why this different-His reply-because the law says so-the refugees/immigrants comes before the ordinary Danish people

Strange laws there. Did the journalist question the statement, or are the laws really in favour of refugees? Or did the journalist try to inform some followers to motivate them accordingly?

Sweden and Denmark has also huge problems with some refugees that behave badly or are very unthankful-if ain't the food, or the house/apartment, then there is something else they are very dissatisfied with

Both in Sweden and in Denmark we have been told we can expect huge cutbacks on welfare.

If I could control the media and control the perception of the people - and if I were interested in more money, in public subsidies for myself - I would try to tell the people a lie about the true reasons for some cut backs. So I get more money and they hate each other - and not me.

by the way-I'm with Eddie and some other debatters in this thread-a refugee or an immigrant who commit crimes while his or her application for asylum is pending-he or she should be kicked out of the country he or she is trying to get access to.

I disagree. Sending them back could be a death sentence. We should treat them equally to our criminals. I'd like to see criminals to provide for themselves and their custody costs. The public should have no costs at all for the criminals. But they should not be providing to the public and grow the public - or worse, some private - wealth. It would be the perfect justification to catch a few slaves...


Your mom is good? Good!

[Mittelwaechter]

We have an immigrant from Ghana, he is a mayor of Piran for the last few years. Admited, this one is university educated and a doctor.
We have another one from one of the former French colonies, he causes no problems, pays taxes, learns slovene and is a garbage man and when they pick up the trash at the pub he loudly greets the patrons sitting outside before the truck drives off. Everyone loves him.

One is a law abiding white collar immigrant from Africa, one is a law abiding blue collar immigrant from Africa and both should set the bar on integration and behavior for immigrants.
Anything less, any resistance to integration and they should be kicked out. And they are evidence that a culture shock can be overcome in a reasonable time.

Some people deserve to be here, some people don't. Time to stop wasting money on people that don't. People that do deserve to be here are contributors anyway.

Finally some positive stories about immigrants. Not all are bad.
Can we sort them at the border?

And what do you think about natives resisting immigration?

[Wamiduku]

What he may have forgot is-You better be careful who you discuss the official refugee poltics with-It's something you only discuss with friends you can rely on 110 %. and do not tell that you support SD-that could make you unemployed
Absolutely correct. Actually, having lunch with the wrong people can be enough to get you fired. Sports journalist Marcus Birro was photographed having lunch with parliament members from the Sweden Democrat party (3rd largest of the 8 parties in parliament, 13% of the 2014 election votes and about 20% in recent polls), which caused him to lose his job. Link: http://www.gp.se/n%C3%B6je/marcus-birro-sparkas-igen-1.51269

The Danish police union magazine states that their Swedish colleagues could get fired if they told the public what goes on in the Malmö muslim enclave Rosengård: http://dansk-politi.dk/artikler/2013/september/narkohandel,-integrationsproblemer-og-lukkede-doere-i-malmoe.aspx

Also, people are kicked out of their trade unions if they have anything to do with the Sweden Democrats. Several examples:
http://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/smaland/uteslots-fran-facket-for-att-han-ar-sverigdemokrat
http://www.hd.se/2015-04-23/sd-politiker-pa-vag-uteslutas-ur-facket
http://www.sydsvenskan.se/2006-03-15/annu-en-sd-medlem-slangs-ut-ur-facket

So, if anybody thought mapuc's post seemed exaggerated, now you have sources that verifies what he says.

Again, my links are to established sources, not to right wing blogs. I saw earlier that Mittelwaechter tries to justify his complete lack of references and wants us to take his word for anything he writes, so once again I dismiss him referring to Hitchen's Razor: What is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

[Mittelwaechter]

What is not written in the Bible is not true, we know.

The media is right by default. Your media of course.
Your experts in manipulation shall have the control over the brains you want to convince. Don't think for yourself - listen to them!

Listen to the priests! But damn you Muslims - stop listen to yours. They seed all the hate into your hearts. The Quran is the book of evil. Listen to the Bible!

Consequent behaviour?

So, if anybody thought mapuc's post seemed exaggerated, now you have sources that verifies what he says.

Do you doubt him?

[August]

Another incident in Japan.

A knife-wielding man has gone on a rampage at a facility for handicapped people in the city of Sagamihara, west of Tokyo.

Police say 15 people are confirmed dead and 45 injured.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20160726_08/

[Nippelspanner]

The Quran is the book of evil. Listen to the Bible!
And who here said that or even remotely suggested that?
No one. Absolutely no one.
Can you at least try to make a valid point for once instead of resting your argument on things no one here said?

[mapuc]

Strange laws there. Did the journalist question the statement, or are the laws really in favour of refugees? Or did the journalist try to inform some followers to motivate them accordingly?



Following two sentences is from an Danish news paper the article was postet on Februar 2015-the law is still in force,

The municipalities struggle to provide housing for their nationals in housing shortage because they have to find housing for refugees first

That is the message from a number of municipalities, which is concerned that the refugees' legal entitlement to be assigned housing gets some citizens to see negative on refugees.

There have been another politician on Danish TV who said the law say we shall put the refugees first-this after we were told an handicapped person who was granted a special apartment, suddenly was placed further back in the queue.

Markus

[August]

And who here said that or even remotely suggested that?
No one. Absolutely no one.
Can you at least try to make a valid point for once instead of resting your argument on things no one here said?

Be careful, he'll start telling us Mittelwaechters fables again. :)

[Nippelspanner]

Be careful, he'll start telling us Mittelwaechters fables again. :)
But what else would keep this gorgeous thread alive?
Oh right... daily Muslim terror attacks that have nothing to do with Islam.

[mapuc]

Quran versus our Holy Bible

I have been told there is a violent part and a peaceful part in the Quran and then there are these Hadith and some other book that a muslim also need to read to fully understand their holy book.

If I remember correctly our own bible have a violent part and a peaceful part

What is common for Islamic and Christians fanatics is they pick a sentence here and there and a letter here and there in their respective religious book so they can justify their "behaviour"

That goes for any religious fanatics. They take what they need from their religious book.

Markus

[Nippelspanner]

Quran versus our Holy Bible

I have been told there is a violent part and a peaceful part in the Quran and then there are these Hadith and some other book that a muslim also need to read to fully understand their holy book.

If I remember correctly our own bible have a violent part and a peaceful part

What is common for Islamic and Christians fanatics is they pick a sentence here and there and a letter here and there in their respective religious book so they can justify their "behaviour"

That goes for any religious fanatics. They take what they need from their religious book.

Markus
Why do you defend/relativise the Islam when you obviously don't know it?

One main difference between the Bible (that I don't give a damn about as an atheist) and the Quran is that one book doesn't command its followers to kill non-believers,
lie to them, or not to befriend them in any way but abuse them to advance the own cause.

Now guess which book that is...

[mapuc]

Why do you defend/relativise the Islam when you obviously don't know it?

One main difference between the Bible (that I don't give a damn about as an atheist) and the Quran is that one book doesn't command its followers to kill non-believers,
lie to them, or not to befriend them in any way but abuse them to advance the own cause.

Now guess which book that is...

I do NOT defend any of them-not if the followers of their holy book kills other. A peaceful person who has a belief but do not harm any-that person I have nothing against.

I'm not an expert on the Quran its only what I have been told-If not true then enlighten me.

Markus

[Mittelwaechter]

Following two sentences is from an Danish news paper the article was postet on Februar 2015-the law is still in force,

The municipalities struggle to provide housing for their nationals in housing shortage because they have to find housing for refugees first

That is the message from a number of municipalities, which is concerned that the refugees' legal entitlement to be assigned housing gets some citizens to see negative on refugees.

There have been another politician on Danish TV who said the law say we shall put the refugees first-this after we were told an handicapped person who was granted a special apartment, suddenly was placed further back in the queue.

Markus

Again - a problem was unsolved - there was obviously a housing shortage. Did it appear overnight? Were comes the difference from?
100 citizens but only 85 houses. Why is there 15 citizens without housing?

Not all of the native population willing to live in a house/appartment could get one. Were did they live then? Was this situation somewhat accepted? Were more housings been built?

Now 100 000 refugees come and look for help. Of course this adds to the former problem. But obviously the former problem was accepted. Even the handicapped person was living somewere - and does now have to live there further on, until enough housing is available.

The people not willing to help suddenly mention some own citizens have no homes and shall have them first. Until now they didn't try to help even the own people. But forcing them to help - they feel some need for solidarity. Funny, eh?

So the politicians say - everybody accepted it first and now we care for those without any housing - the refugees - first.

Same situation as above - the problems already existent, but denied or accepted, become suddenly urgent. Those motivated to generate hate against the refugees will start to complain. Our people first - the refugees shall have to wait.

Those in extremly dire shall wait, until those with less dire will be satisfied.
Ask a medic if this is appropriate.


Our societies are no homogen constructs. We have groups of different interests. But we agreed on some represenatives, some custodians, to make decisions for us. They represent the majority the day we vote for them.
We are told, we are not smart enough to decide problems when they occur, but are smart enough to designate a stranger to make decisions for us in our interest. We have a problem here - and it's not the refugees.

With a more direct democraty we citizens would have more influence on actual solutions - but the rulers controlling the politicians would have less.
So we stay with a representative democracy, until we are personally contolled to such a degree, that the rulers are able to allow the politicians to promote direct democracy - without loss of control.

The politicians will not like it.


A peaceful person who has a belief but do not harm any-that person I have nothing against.Is there a difference what religion the person follows?

[Mittelwaechter]

And who here said that or even remotely suggested that?
No one. Absolutely no one.
Can you at least try to make a valid point for once instead of resting your argument on things no one here said?

We shall listen to the media priests - link thier motivation to control our perception.
Your opinion is from priest A - writing in media “True”. You link the text to support your opinion - his opinion, his processed data, his motivation to see the world - you have accepted this opinion.

I do the same - link my motivator. I shall read yours, you shall read mine.

I don't think this kind of discussion to be useful. Let the media priests have that discussion by themselves. They don't need us for that.

The cleric priests explaining the world with the Bible has lost influence. You don't listen to them.

But the media priests explaining the world with news and data have gained influence. You totally believe them. Muslims are all evil terrorists - you link to their hatemonger.

What's not written in the news is not true! = What's not written in the Bible is not true.


In the same tone you address me: please, for once, try to keep up and use your intelligence. Don't tell me I overestimate it.

And now please tell me, is this tone necessary and productive? Does it add to the discussion?

[Oberon]

One main difference between the Bible (that I don't give a damn about as an atheist) and the Quran is that one book doesn't command its followers to kill non-believers,
lie to them, or not to befriend them in any way but abuse them to advance the own cause.

:hmmm::hmmm::hmmm:

Do not sacrifice to the Lord your God an ox or a sheep that has any defect or flaw in it, for that would be detestable to him. 2 If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the Lord gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the Lord your God in violation of his covenant, 3 and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars in the sky, 4 and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, 5 take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death. 6 On the testimony of two or three witnesses a person is to be put to death, but no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness. 7 The hands of the witnesses must be the first in putting that person to death, and then the hands of all the people. You must purge the evil from among you.


If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you. 6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely,both its people and its livestock. 16 You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt, 17 and none of the condemned things are to be found in your hands. Then the Lord will turn from his fierce anger, will show you mercy, and will have compassion on you. He will increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your ancestors— 18 because you obey the Lord your God by keeping all his commands that I am giving you today and doing what is right in his eyes

Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle. 15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

[Mittelwaechter]

And 'the law' - the Old Testament is valid.

Sermon on the Mount - Jesus talking

Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
5:20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Christians consider Christ to be God - and God to be Christ. Christ stands for the old rules as God stands for them.

But what do I know.

Linking to some common knowledge.

[Oberon]

Christians consider Christ to be God - and God to be Christ.

It's a bit more complicated than that, some do believe that yes, whereas others believe that the Holy Trinity (The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit) represent three different things which are united in their essence. Then, of course, there are Christian sects which don't believe in the Trinity at all, such as Jehovahs Witnesses.

Atheists should consider themselves lucky that they're still a young enough movement that no major splits/sects have happened yet. Seems to happen to most major religions/ideologies. :dead:

[Mittelwaechter]

Atheistm is no movement. Atheist is the name for nonbelievers, given by believers. But the difference is only relevant for believers. They form a movement.

Would you name yourself non-stamp-collector, a non-high-heels-wearer, a non-deep-sea-diver? Is it relevant for you - or for the philatelist who talks about you?

I accept them to name me for their purposes - and I may even use it in communication with them. It makes things easier.

But I don't consider me myself to be an atheist nor am I part of a movement or ideology.

But of course I could follow the common concepts - provided by believers and their priests.

[Oberon]

Everyone tends to follow some kind of concept which has been formed by influential people, the primary difference is how strict they adhere to such concepts and whether they also follow other concepts which may or may not contradict.

Humanity is strange.

[Mittelwaechter]

Humanity is strange.

:yep:

[Sailor Steve]

Atheists should consider themselves lucky that they're still a young enough movement that no major splits/sects have happened yet. Seems to happen to most major religions/ideologies. :dead:
There have been people of note proclaiming that there is no God since ancient times. In the middle ages it was dangerous to do so, and the organized religion were in the habit of torturing and beheading people who spoke out against the existence of a God.

I this I agree with Mittelwaechter that, while there have been Atheist organizations springing up in recent times, they don't exactly adhere to a creed in the religious sense, and those who differ are more likely to go their own way or discuss it reasonably than get into holy wars.

[Oberon]

There have been people of note proclaiming that there is no God since ancient times. In the middle ages it was dangerous to do so, and the organized religion were in the habit of torturing and beheading people who spoke out against the existence of a God.

I this I agree with Mittelwaechter that, while there have been Atheist organizations springing up in recent times, they don't exactly adhere to a creed in the religious sense, and those who differ are more likely to go their own way or discuss it reasonably than get into holy wars.

I would perhaps ponder if that will change in this modern era, certainly records indicate that atheism has bloomed in a big way over the past fifty years in the western world, and I would say that there are now more atheists in the world than there has ever been in any point in history.
But it's a valid point that atheism isn't really a religion of its own, since it has only one real point to it, the disbelief of the presence of a God and thus it's an easier thing to adhere to without taking bits of it apart.
Instead, I imagine that Atheists fight over other ideological differences.

[Catfish]

OT? Is religion off-topic in this thread? :hmmm:

It's a bit more complicated than that, some do believe that yes, whereas others believe that the Holy Trinity (The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit) represent three different things which are united in their essence. [...]

And they also tried to kill each other, from Spain to England, because of that or various other opinions. Then catholicism, evangelism, judaism, the anglican church, baptism, and lots and lots of other "splinter groups".

I guess we can all say that
1. there are not much people today in the West who take the bible literally, if they believe at all.
2. There are a lot who bend the bible in their way, quoting what pleases them most and simply disregarding the "rest".
3. The bible is contradictory, depending on which parts and authors you read.
4. There has been a lot of discussing and abstraction in christian theological circles for centuries, to unite and come to a common view, but there are still lots of sects who still believe in their own. Most do not play a big role though. Thank.. God.

Islam being a slightly younger religion, it seems a lot of this theological discussion has not yet taken place, but also a lot of egoists with their own unethical goals quote those text components they want their followers to believe, and abuse it. Most "christian" atrocities have been perpetrated until the 19th century, when there were still some witches burnt, in the US. But the real big bad things did take place before and in the middle ages, some centuries ago.

You could say that the interpretation in Islam has not come to a more united view "yet", but this may be wrong. It is just that a few donkeyholes abuse and bend it to their liking, because every "leader" ever had to have a legitimation for their ruling, no matter how far-fetched it may appear.
The daesh leaders legitimate their crimes by the Koran, but they only quote what suits them. What we see are people blowing their own trumpet, for themselves and their power, just using religion to their personal advantage.
Any new christian leader could (ab)use the bible in the same way.

From own experience and perception:
Some 7 or 8 years ago, the local "muslims" or should i just say common people of another faith invited all to their "mosque" (being just another normal house here) for a secular celebration, and to talk about differences and possible "joint ventures" so to speak. All quite reasonable, organising charity events and generally trying to fit in. Some businessmen and women, some selling snacks, lots of children, all with german passport in the 3rd generation or so. They also showed us their praying chamber, a reasonable priest/Imam and they did not hold back much, if at all.

I failed to see aggressiveness or even the will to convert anyone. They did it for a better integration and coming to know each other.

With all those new immigrants, this is certainly another matter. But bedeviling all?

[Skybird]

Atheism is no religion to believe in. It is the refusal of just believing into claims about a theistic deity for which no evidence exists.

Atheists have always been around, just in varying numbers, and in the past they had all reason to hide . Some stepped for forward and stood up for their thinking, many paid with their lives.

Atheism is no ideology or theory or belief system in itself. All it wants is evidence for claims made by theistic religions. If you do not have such evidence, they want to be left alone and want at best that religious stop forming society to theistic demands.

Its not so much that they want something on their own behalf. They want something not. Freedom of religious practicing always must mean freedom from religion as well - else it is religious tyranny in more or less disguise.

Religions can be atheist when they do not center around a theistic deity. Religion must not necessarily be mono- or polytheistic. But usually atheists are areligious as well.

Some atheists I knew, just did not care for these religious issues, others wanted to be left alone by them. None of them fought for an atheist agenda, since there is nothing like an agenda, but they may set up a fight if religious people directly or indirectly press them to surrender to demands of theistic belief, or want to enforce theistic views on society.

The golden rule to get along with atheists and not even realising that they may differ from you? Do not push them, then they do not push you. They do not care for what your practice in your cabin a slong as you do not consume children or torture animals. The more you push them, the more they push back. Do not limit their freedom from your religion by increasing the demands of your religion and the role it should play in the world they also share with you. Try to make them belief in your deity, and see them asking you for evidence that it exists. The burden of evidence is on theists, not atheists.

As either Dawkins or Hitchens once put it: the theist is as atheistic as the atheist, both do not believe in Zeus, Apollo or Venus; Wotan, Tor or Loki; Isis, Apophis or Re, nor do they believe in Easter bunnies, Santa Claus or that the storch brings the babies. The atheists just goes all the way, he goes one deity's further in his refusal to believe.

Claims that "atheists" ruin the world" and "atheists triggered the war" and then pointing out that Stalin or Mao or Hitler were atheist (Hitler formally was Catholic, btw), are hilarious. Here, a correlation is taken for a causal link. Everybody knowing the basics of statistics know what the problem is. One could as well claim that bearded men kicked the world into WWII.

-----

BTW, hostage taking in a Northern French church. Two attackers, both shot dead by the police. 1 hostage dead, the priest. No word on the background so far. And just in: French officials base on terror suspicion.

[Dowly]

BTW, hostage taking in a Northern French church. Two attackers, both shot dead by the police. 1 hostage dead. No word on the background so far. And just in: French officials base on terror suspicion.
Yup... apparently the priest's throat was cut. :nope:

[Skybird]

Yup... apparently the priest's throat was cut. :nope:
Throat cut? Probably the terrorists were Jews, they do this kosher-thingy.

Islam cannot have anything to do with it, many so many people in here have met friendly Muslims, even a reasonable Imam. Wowh, that speaks volumes about Islam. Im stunned by the expertise about the ideological content of Islamic scripture.

The problem is that some people treat "being Muslim" as if it were just a genetic trait like hair colour, size, skin colour, race. But it isn't. It is about the content of an ideology - and whether somebody obeys that content or not. That's what under a regime of reason and logic would define who is Muslim. Ideologically, however, Muslim is who was born with a Muslim father, but that is lazy thinking, its just a claim for possession of the individual. So stop using the term Muslim as if you were talking about for example "the Chinese", "the Blacks". I was baptised when I was a baby and had no say and had no thought about it. Does this mean you should see a Christian in me? Hardly, I am clearly no Christian, a man in fancy clothes spilled water over my head and cast some magical spells, why should I worry, I did not even realise what happened and have no memory of it. If you would refer to me as "that Christian from Germany", it would make no sense.

[Skybird]

France, now confirmed: one hostage dead, two hostages seriously injured and fighting for their lives, both terrorists dead.

French officials say link to IS is "very likely".

[Mittelwaechter]

Shots have been fired - Benjamin Franklin Clinic - Berlin - patient fired on Doctor - wounded - then suicide they say - again.

The classical media can't keep up anymore.

[Catfish]

If the media posted every assasssination and terror act worldwide, they would be stuffed unto the next century already.

Astonishing that all happens over the day, exactly fits into a newspaper/website/blog. Did they even apply the muslim terrorism filter here?

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y174/penaeus/car-toon_zpscbblgtxy.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/penaeus/media/car-toon_zpscbblgtxy.jpg.html)

[Betonov]

And what do you think about natives resisting immigration?

Sorry, I was at work, late answer.

It's a natural reaction to be cautious, then flamed up by media (mainstream or otherwise).

Some concerns are legit, terorists smuggling themsleves in via refugees, some bringing with them non-european habits or principles without intentions to integrate, others simply ready to live of the social systems the taxpayer maintaines.

I am a liberal. European level socialist and left wing but I will take a turn for the right when we're dealing with immigrants that will come here for anything else than try to make an honest living.

I do believe that there should be tougher rules for immigrants. One strike and you're out. Missdemenanors, OK, I'm not advocating throwing people out for parking violations but murder, rape, grand theft, sorry, I'll pay for a chance to drive you to the border in summer in my car trunk. I am not going to waste my taxpayer money to see you locked up in a Slovene prison and then be back out in a few years. I don't want to see you ever again and if you're going to to a hellhole spare me the tears, you had a chance and you blew it.
Don't want to follow the law we wrote, you want to install a law system based on a book that's out of date ffor 1500 years, get out of my country.
Don't want to learn our language, there's the port, I don't care if you swim back.
You start protesting that we shouldn't be a secular country, here's a free one way ticket.
If Enver from Albania serving me burek can do all that, so can you.

Multiculturalism only works if there's one dominant culture, the culture of the natives and all others adapt.


Refugees are another matter. Refugee camps should be established, with food, heat, healthcare, maybe help them set up some small economy so the camps are a lesser burdeon for the economy, slowly weed out the troublemakers and send them back, pick out what Europe lacks, doctors engineers, artisans and give them asylums. The rest can wait until the war stops and they can be sent back.
Sounds terrible from a liberal.

Let me tell you why.

Because no matter how left wing I can meditate, I will never, ever, eeeeever believe that midle eastern countries will give us the same courtesy. They'll either close the borders or accept us as a sudden influx of cheap labor. I rather face down the Russians than run to Turkey or Saudi Arabia. Quick death by an AK is prefferable than slow starvation in a Dubai construction site.

[Mittelwaechter]

Catfish :up:

I did a 6 month observation of some major online media presences in D - FAZ/SZ/ZON/WO - maybe four years ago.

During the week all had the exactly same reports - wording - interpretation - often same pictures. Friday afternoon they started to divert and began to concentrate on single topics - each news site ~ three main headlines from the week occurances. They kept it that way over the weekend.
They all showed different headlines and in deep rehash of the major events. Very obviously coordinated and collusive.
For every reader with some time available on the weekend, checking some other news sites to see what they report, the impression was created, the sites were reporting different priorities, but all the important news of course too.

Different scheme with TV news. Both public stations had exactly the same news - often even in identical sequence - day by day. Two independent news desks - the exact same 15 toppics - taken from all over the world. Observed them only 4 weeks.

All shall have the same state of knowledge, all shall have the same general opinion.

They changed it - but I'm pretty sure the new scheme is just more complicated to reveal.

[Mittelwaechter]

Let me add something to the common knowledge:
http://www.pri.org/stories/2016-04-26/what-it-s-inside-refugee-camp-europeans-who-fled-syria-egypt-and-palestine-during

[Dowly]

Let me add something to the common knowledge:
http://www.pri.org/stories/2016-04-26/what-it-s-inside-refugee-camp-europeans-who-fled-syria-egypt-and-palestine-duringHow do I know that site is not part of the controlled media? http://i.imgur.com/10hSxqM.gif

[Wamiduku]

Let me add something to the common knowledge:
http://www.pri.org/stories/2016-04-26/what-it-s-inside-refugee-camp-europeans-who-fled-syria-egypt-and-palestine-during

How fortunate for the refugees that Syria was still controlled by Vichy France. Under muslim rule, kuffar (unbelievers) would problably have been treated the way the muslim Egyptians treat the christian Copts.

[August]

For every reader with some time available on the weekend, checking some other news sites to see what they report, the impression was created, the sites were reporting different priorities, but all the important news of course too.

You seem to like giving work to others. Are you sure your name isn't Mr. Barrow?

[Mittelwaechter]

You seem to like giving work to others. Are you sure your name isn't Mr. Barrow?

Must be some misundertanding here.

I did this research four years ago. No jobs offered here.

I'm still left over from yesterday - no sleep. Sorry for any confusing expression.

[Mittelwaechter]

How do I know that site is not part of the controlled media? http://i.imgur.com/10hSxqM.gif

Now we are talking!

I remember to have checked some cross references - several camps in Syria, Jordan, Egypt. Afiar - there was some UN data unaccessable.

There is an old Wikipedia site for one of the camps - and I remember some Google books scans from a nurse telling a story about some Yugoslavian kids and mothers in ? Egypt or Palestine maybe.

I am not that bad at researching - I can surely find some of that data again. Tomorrow! OK?

Edit: Oh - and the site itself isn't that perfect resource in my eyes. I was unhappy with their financing and I checked some of their other articles. Not my preferred tone of information, but I kept the link, because the fact of the European refugees in Syria, Palestine, Jordan and Egypt is true.
Not sure about the details of living conditions...

[Skybird]

Shooting incident in the Charité in Lichterfelde has no extremist background.

[Mittelwaechter]

Because no matter how left wing I can meditate, I will never, ever, eeeeever believe that midle eastern countries will give us the same courtesy.

The “more common knowledge” post above should make you know.

Some of your measures are pretty harsh. All should be granted a second chance I think.
Well - of course not for major crimes. Kill one and you shall have a second chance is obviously stupid.
But for learning and adapting - a shot before the bow - some damages maybe - public work.

Regular immigrants could be instructed properly - by someone speaking their language - and then they should be spread all over the country.
Every little village, every small town, every city should have to accept and adapt to the immigrants too. Fair share and evenly mix of cultures.
No ghettos, no subcultures for them - no second hand experience by news and “I have heared they live like kings” for the natives.

They should have to work - a regular native day. Paint blue boxes green, transport them to A - paint them blue - and transport them back to B - to be repainted green - simple tasks, if necessary.
As long as there is no real jobs available, they are kept busy. “We” could recognize the wood they are.

Immigration is no one way ticket, someone stated in an other posting. German natives recognize an immigrant not by speech or clothing or behaviour - but by physiognomy.
Your parents may have been born in Germany - but if you look like uncle Ali you are a foreigner, an immigrant. No matter if you are a doctor or professoer or astronaut or major.
The natives have to adapt here too, for a successful immigration process.

Refugees should be taken intensly care of - especially health care. In Germany it seems to be a mess.

I like the 1944 Syrian way to make them work . They are kept busy and don't hang around and breed trouble.

[Betonov]

Some of your measures are pretty harsh. All should be granted a second chance I think.


Immigrants that are ready to become productive members of society don't need a second chance.
A second chance in life when we allow them in. No second chances in crime.
We don't even give second chances to our own. One murder and you're off to jail (provided the police and courts do their job).

[Wamiduku]

I like the 1944 Syrian way to make them work . They are kept busy and don't hang around and breed trouble.
That was the French way, of course. Syria wasn't independent until 1946.

[Mittelwaechter]

Immigrants that are ready to become productive members of society don't need a second chance.
A second chance in life when we allow them in. No second chances in crime.
We don't even give second chances to our own. One murder and you're off to jail (provided the police and courts do their job).

I Agree on treating them like our own people. A small crime - a small theft maybe - is no jail for our own people. They get a harsh warning - more or less - some public work and probation.

For murder there is no dispute.

[Mittelwaechter]

That was the French way, of course. Syria wasn't independent until 1946.

The camps were operated until 1949 afair. We'll see...

EDIT: Ok - in the article itself - an Egypt camp until 1948. Checking for Syrian data...


Edit: My UN site - as useful as ever
https://search.archives.un.org/middle-east-relief-and-refugee-administration-merra-united-nations-relift-and-rehabilitation-agency-unrra-policy

Some Google books scans
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=en3kAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA92&lpg=PA92&dq=Tolumbat+camp&source=bl&ots=YsDRmiYw-C&sig=9RgyEZH8KClua2yk93Lc_Udyj6w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi7ltzxzJHOAhVEJ8AKHWB3DC4Q6AEIKTAG

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=fqUSGevFe5MC&pg=PA321&lpg=PA321&dq=Tolumbat+camp&source=bl&ots=-Oe_fnc9W9&sig=60dZEodFFw7XXtCOcVPjhiVySiI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi7ltzxzJHOAhVEJ8AKHWB3DC4Q6AEILzAI

Can't find my nurse.

El Shatt - Egypt - with links (my Wikipedia link! - the article history goes to 2009)
https://www.geni.com/projects/El-Shatt-WWII-refugee-camps/1065

Still nothing useful for Syria - the camp was at Aleppo.

The Washington Post has adopted the topic too now - and links to an site with Polish refugees in Iran. No cross reference, no back up...
https://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/polsirn.htm

I think this is what one has to do with information provided by the media priests. Check and crosscheck the data - don't trust the media priest per se. Some common sense is helpful. Europeean refugees in Syria sounds strange at first, but considering that some population tends to flee the violence - where should they have fled to? Who has an agenda here? Follow the money is a standard principle.


Edit: Is your question answered, Dowly?

I try to get some sleep now. CU

[Jimbuna]

France, now confirmed: one hostage dead, two hostages seriously injured and fighting for their lives, both terrorists dead.

French officials say link to IS is "very likely".

One of the men suspected of killing a priest at a church in northern France was being monitored by police and was wearing a surveillance tag at the time of the attack, officials say.
Prosecutor Francois Molins said Adel Kermiche, 19, was twice arrested last year trying to reach Syria.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36900233

[Nippelspanner]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36900233
"When they were eventually let go, the two attackers followed them out of the church shouting "Allahu Akbar" before being killed, Mr Molins said."

Nuthn' to do with Islam! :yeah:

[HunterICX]

Archbishop of Westminster unites with Muslim leaders to condemn Rouen attack

Two armed men took six people, including a priest and two nuns, hostage this morning. They killed Fr Jacques Hamel, 84, by cutting his throat, before being shot by police (http://www.thetablet.co.uk/news/5889/0/priest-murdered-as-two-armed-men-take-churchgoers-hostage-during-morning-mass-). The Cardinal, who signed the statement along with prominent Muslims including Sheikh Mohammed Al-Hilli, Director of the Noor Trust; Imam Qari Muhammad Asim, Head Imam at Mecca Mosque and Sheikh Ibrahim Mogra, Co-Chair of the Christian-Muslim Forum, said he was deeply shocked by the murder.
“To commit murder at a place where people gather in peace to worship adds another layer of depravity to the violence that we have witnessed over the past weeks. We pray for the courage to respond to all evil with truth, justice, and reconciliation,” they wrote.
http://www.thetablet.co.uk/news/5891/0/archbishop-of-westminster-unites-with-muslim-leaders-to-condemn-rouen-attack

[Skybird]

First you spill oil, then you set it ablaze, and then you sell the inferno to the world as cold ice that is refreshing in hot summer.

And people buy it. In masses and masses.

:dead:

Hopeless.

[Mittelwaechter]

Joey is beating a child, making it cry, causing the noise. But the noise is the child's fault! Solution? Let's beat the child for the noise.

Do we both see a problem here? Does it somehow have to do with the child?


“Do you want to say, the noise doesn't come from the child? I'm an child expert! Believe me, children are noisy.”

“No, I want to say Joey is causing the actual problem.”


http://abload.de/img/internetdiskussionkurn3oyi.jpg

Pic related.

[Nippelspanner]

Do we both see a problem here?
Nope, it's just you who sees problems in the most inaccurate analogies right outta' Lala-land. :roll:

[Mittelwaechter]

Nope, it's just you who sees problems in the most inaccurate analogies right outta' Lala-land. :roll:

Surely there is no elephant in the room.

[Nippelspanner]

Surely there is no elephant in the room.
Sorry to disappoint, but no, there is absolutely not. Nighty night. :up:

[Mittelwaechter]

Why does Mrs. Merkel tell the Germans “We will manage it!”
Why is it good for Germany to welcome the refugees?

If I were a Barrow - let's say a building contractor - suffering from a shrinking population - only a few new houses are needed - no money to make by being paid by my workers - the isolation of homes with some chemical warmth is slow and even running dry. I could repair roads for taxmoney, bridges - infrastructure, but the taxmoney has been used for the banksters.

But I have influence on my politicians and my media friends. Some other Barrows are caring for weapons production, expansion, energy supply and “the future” - with their influence on their politicianss and media friends. There is some synergy! My interest is to build houses, but we need people for this. The other Barrows motivate some foreigeners to leave their homes - by destroying them. They come to Germany and ask for housing. Damn - what a coincidence.

I talk to my politicians. I am willing to build houses, with support of the taxpayer. Is at least some little subsidies available? I take care for jobs, you know? Great!
Some credit, provided by those with private money, shall finance the construction of the housings too - they shall have a return of investment, by receiving rental from the foreigners. Forever! The interest for their surplus money is so low, you know. They don't know where to put their money else.

My workers will pay me - as the taxpayer will support them in doing so. The rich landlords will get more money. The good system works. The politician tell the workers, their jobs are secure for some years. The economy is growing...

Germany is performing well!

If only there were no evil Muslims - those terrorists.

No elephant in this zoo!

[Mittelwaechter]

so once again I dismiss him referring to Hitchen's Razor: What is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

I knew I missed one...

So to use Occam's razor on Hitchens' razor: if no one supports your claim - your idea - the claim is wrong.
Could be the motto of the Spanish Inquisition. Priests caring for conformity.

Find some priest who is willing to speak in your favour.
Simply tell the priest's claims and you shall have no problem.

The priest doesn't have to act accordingly - he enjoys the power to claim by himself - because it is the word of God.
Politicians can do so too. You entitle them to claim whatever they seem fit.
God explains priests and politicians his desire - and they claim it in his or in your name.

Do you see the problem here? You can't explain anyone your desire.
You can just vote for the politician who shall tell you Gods desire and you may be free to chose your priest.
Occam: If your desire is not supported officially - it is wrong.

Damn - I have no link to support this idea.

But as usual I try it with common sense, some healthy distrust and some common knowledge/research.
Who's Hitchen? A journalist, a media priest? What does he try to explain? Does he try to fool me - by doing his job?

He claimed in 2003 - a time we had started to exchange our own ideas.


Hitchens' razor is the contradiction to sapere aude.


_________________________

Edit: Hitchens' razor is “widely attributed to him”. I may do his person wrong here.
Someone might have slipped him the quote, to hide the true source, while increasing the effect of the statement, profiting from Hitchens' respected reputation. Abusing Hitchens, to support the own agenda. The people shall respect only the claims from media priests, respect quotable, given and accepted concepts.
Thou shalt have no other God before me.

Edit2: This is his true quote: Forgotten were the elementary rules of logic, that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and that what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2003/10/mommie_dearest.html

What is he talking about? He was talking about logic - not own opinion backed by common sense and critical thinking. There might be logic involved.
And there might be experience, observation, facts, common knowledge...

“Hitchens's razor” is actually an (rough) English translation of the Latin proverb "Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur (https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/en:Latin_proverbs#Q)", (What is freely asserted is freely deserted.). It's not from Hitchens at all. He took a proverb and mixed it into his own statement.

Thus, Hitchen's razor can be applied to Mittelwachter's posts: "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor). No, it can't be applied. The whole quote is just the the contradiction of sapere aude (dare to think for yourself), to make us do exactly the opposite.

“Hitchens's razor” is actually an (rough) English translation of the Latin proverb "Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur (https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/en:Latin_proverbs#Q)", (What is freely asserted is freely deserted.). It's not from Hitchens at all. He took a proverb and mixed it into his own statement about logic.

Thus, Hitchen's razor can be applied to Mittelwachter's posts: "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor). No, it can't be applied. The whole quote is just the the contradiction of sapere aude (dare to think for yourself), to make us do exactly the opposite.


So my Edit1 seems to be valid. Someone is quoting Hitchens wrong - and calls it Hitchens' Razor.

Wamiduku, you have been tricked - and I think you don't understand Hitchens' Razor itself. Additionally you try to use its assumed message in the wrong context.
You kept me busy, but I learned something here. So I'm more thankful than mad.

__________________________________

Edit3: Richard Dawkins, a fellow antitheistic activist of the late Hitchens, formulated totally different, at TED in February 2002:

“The onus is on you to say why, the onus is not on the rest of us to say why not.”

This works fine and enables you to discuss new ideas - make claims without “official evidence”. You may think for yourself.

A refugee might have suffered from the exposure to violence, because we know of soldiers suffering from the same conditions. The unexpected behaviour could be caused by this, not by his real Muslim belief.

There has no official evidence for the statement to be found and linked. There may be no evidence available at all, by now no tests executed.
But we may agree onto this, just out of common sense.

[Penguin]

Immigrants that are ready to become productive members of society don't need a second chance.
A second chance in life when we allow them in. No second chances in crime.
We don't even give second chances to our own. One murder and you're off to jail (provided the police and courts do their job).

Do you want all the Yugos back from here? That's how you will get them. :know:
No seriously, I think we should differ petween petty crime and criminal offences. For the first thing you should have a second chance, for the second one, not.
I'm especially referring to Yugos, as Germany took a ton of them during the Balkan wars and many stayed. There were folks under them who were heavily trumatized as well, just as some had trouble adjusting and/or were prone to more violent behaviour.
The difference: you don't see any Serbs blowing themselves up for perceived injustices they saw. You certainly know better than me how happy they were about the NATO bombings back then and still are today. Interestingly enough, today those ex-refugees are even more against the current policies than native Germans are, just as most immigrants who came here by other means.

There are certain authoritan personalities and cultures where kindness is seen as weakness. Just as an Indian once explained to me: in India, if you give away free stuff, you're not seen as a generous guy, but as a sucker who deserves to be ripped off.

Just look at the scumbag who burned down the refugee shelter here in my home town, endangering 300 people who were living there: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36487781
This guy already had >30 criminal offences on his record. Given our competent police force here, you can triple the number for the real number of crimes he committed. It's no wonder those folks don't take laws seriously when they never experience the slightest consequences of their actions. That's one problem of our laws: they are intended for the normal population: if you have a job, you fear financial repercussions; if you come from a country which chops off your hand for stealing, or the police just beats you up, you laugh at a system which takes your name and puts you on the street afterwards.

[Betonov]

The difference: you don't see any Serbs blowing themselves up for perceived injustices they saw. You certainly know better than me how happy they were about the NATO bombings back then and still are today. Interestingly enough, today those ex-refugees are even more against the current policies than native Germans are, just as most immigrants who came here by other means.



They know Germany is the promised land for them and are affraid that terrorists are going to right turn Germany and they'll be targeted by the state and/or banished.
They adapted, they learned the law of the land, the language and would agree with what I wrote about immigration because they followed the ''harsh'' demands I wrote (aka if I can do it, so can you).

[Penguin]

I remeber the discussion I had with a Russian friend who came here some 15 years ago. I told her "you're not Russian, you're more German than most Germans are." After half an hour telling her all the German traits and behaviours she has, she said "No, I still have a Russian soul and heart" - "What about your daughter?" (She was born here) - "Oh, she's German!" :dead::rotfl2:

[Nippelspanner]

If only there were no evil Muslims - those terrorists.
Who said every Muslim is a terrorist? :hmmm:
Riiiight -> not a single person in this thread!

My bad, for a second I forgot that this is your thing.
You know, building your 'arguments' onto things no one ever said.

[August]

I remeber the discussion I had with a Russian friend who came here some 15 years ago. I told her "you're not Russian, you're more German than most Germans are." After half an hour telling her all the German traits and behaviours she has, she said "No, I still have a Russian soul and heart" - "What about your daughter?" (She was born here) - "Oh, she's German!" :dead::rotfl2:

That's a common immigrant story over here too, at least it used to be.

[Catfish]

Who said every Muslim is a terrorist? :hmmm:
Riiiight -> not a single person in this thread! ... .

To correct that: The Amok nutjob in Munich was a right-wing terrorist, being proud of having the same birthday as Hitler and worshipping this nutjob Breivik, and the AfD :doh:

So it is more convenient to say that all immigrants are terrorists, not only the muslims?

[Wamiduku]

“Hitchens's razor” is actually a (rough) English translation of the Latin proverb "Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur (https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/en:Latin_proverbs#Q)", (What is freely asserted is freely deserted.). It's not from Hitchens at all. He took this proverb and mixed it into his own statement about logic.

Which is exactly what it says in the link I posted. Duh...

[Wamiduku]

Who said every Muslim is a terrorist? :hmmm:
Riiiight -> not a single person in this thread!

My bad, for a second I forgot that this is your thing.
You know, building your 'arguments' onto things no one ever said.
The fascinating thing, is how long and incoherent arguments he has with his self constructed straw men (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man).

This debating technique is also very popular with the Swedish left. Maybe it's something they teach in left wing academies?

[Nippelspanner]

The fascinating thing, is how long and incoherent arguments he has with his self constructed straw men (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man).

This debating technique is also very popular with the Swedish left. Maybe it's something they teach in left wing academies?
Nah, regardless of topic or political position, people who have no valid arguments use to them so they can at least talk along instead of just staying silent.

[Mittelwaechter]

Which is exactly what it says in the link I posted. Duh...

Right! You posted a link to prove you wrong. And the linked article itself wants to signify Hitchens quote to be about truthfulness - but Hitchens was writing about logic.

[Oberon]

Islam = Extremist/terrorism religion
Followers of Islam = Muslims

Therefore

Muslims = Terrorists

[Nippelspanner]

Islam = Extremist/terrorism religion
Followers of Islam = Muslims

Therefore

Muslims = Terrorists
*slowclap*

Not every extremist is a terrorist. But I'm not surprised here...

[Oberon]

*slowclap*

Not every extremist is a terrorist. But I'm not surprised here...

So is Islam a religion of terror or not?

Are Muslims people who practice the religion of Islam or not?

Are all Muslims terrorists or not?

[Skybird]

To correct that: The Amok nutjob in Munich was a right-wing terrorist, being proud of having the same birthday as Hitler and worshipping this nutjob Breivik, and the AfD :doh:

So it is more convenient to say that all immigrants are terrorists, not only the muslims?
If you would give me one Euro for every time a Muslim resident in a Muslim country told me to my face how proud I must be to come from the country of Adolf Hitler and how well we did with what we did to the Jews and we should be proud to have killed so many Jews, you would end in a serious state of finances. ;)

Nazism and Islam fit each other nicely. Both are totalitarian. Both are racist. Both are supremacist. Both are especially strictly anti-semitic. Already Muhammad committed what by todays standards and legal definitions would be called genocide of Jews, mass murderings that even for the numerically limited standards of his time were rather outrageous. If you do not believe that then try to find out why archaeological excavations on the market place in Mediana are prohibited by death penalty until today. I explained it often enough.

[Mittelwaechter]

Who said every Muslim is a terrorist? :hmmm:
Riiiight -> not a single person in this thread!

My bad, for a second I forgot that this is your thing.
You know, building your 'arguments' onto things no one ever said.

I remember Reece to write about “Refugees are Muslims and Muslims only tolerate Muslims, they'll kill anyone else given the chance!”

Proper pronounciation advised:

If only there were no evil Muslims - those terrorists.

is not

If only there were no evil Muslims - those terrorists.

You should be aware of my way too tolerant attitude towards Muslims.
But to confuse you, I suddenly switch over to the opposite.

[Nippelspanner]

So is Islam a religion of terror or not?

Are Muslims people who practice the religion of Islam or not?

Are all Muslims terrorists or not?
All real Muslims are extremists - since they follow an extremist ideology, yes.
However, if I really have to explain to you why an extremist isn't automatically a terrorist, I'm going to worry.

Also, Oberon, didn't you want to stay out? I mean, is this Groundhog Day by now or what?
By the way, I'm still waiting for answers along with some proof for some questions I asked months ago.
You know, the ones you had no answer for so you simply decided to bail out and just jump back in when it feels convenient, yet never provided anything profound.

[Oberon]

All real Muslims are extremists - since they follow an extremist ideology, yes.
However, if I really have to explain to you why an extremist isn't automatically a terrorist, I'm going to worry.

So, you judge Muslims on whether or not they're real Muslims based upon how strictly they follow their ideology? Do you apply the same rule to Christians?

Oh, and I did bail out, I just wanted to confirm a few things for the thread, for other people to comment on, put it on the record and all that.

Truth be told, I really can't help but comment from time to time, I guess I could get Jim to delete my account, that would probably be the only way I could stop this.

Oh, and the questions...yeah, you can have that victory if you like.

[Mittelwaechter]

If you would give me one Euro for every time a Muslim resident in a Muslim country told me to my face how proud I must be to come from the country of Adolf Hitler and how well we did with what we did to the Jews and we should be proud to have killed so many Jews, you would end in a serious state of finances. In Turkey. ;)

This could be considered to be an own-goal pretty easy, knowing the amiable hospitality in Turkey.:yep:

[Nippelspanner]

So, you judge Muslims on whether or not they're real Muslims based upon how strictly they follow their ideology? Do you apply the same rule to Christians?
Oh, I KNEW you'd bring this up again!
I should have called it! :har:

Do I have to repeat myself again?
Why don't you go back to pages 50-100 or so, I'm sure it's still there.

"Hey people, let's talk about problem A!"
"Oh, oh yeah!? Problem A, huh? Well what about Problem Z!!?"
:/\\!!

[Oberon]

Oh, I KNEW you'd bring this up again!
I should have called it! :har:

Do I have to repeat myself again?
Why don't you go back to pages 50-100 or so, I'm sure it's still there.

"Hey people, let's talk about problem A!"
"Oh, oh yeah!? Problem A, huh? Well what about Problem Z!!?"
:/\\!!

You should have done, why didn't you? :nope:

You're slipping old boy, slipping.

[Skybird]

I repeatedly referred to Hamed Abdel-Samad, a German Egyptrian apostate and son to a famous Egyptian cleric, who is threatened by a fatwa demanding his assassination.

A French book publisher who was about to release the translation of Hamed Abdel-Samads book "Der islamische Faschismus" (The Islamic Fascism), has stopped the project, quoting concerns about the safety of his workers (which Abdel-Samad accepted as a reason, saying he could not dem,and that others take the same risks for their lives as he does for his own life), and fears of spilling oil into the fire of the radical right (which Abdel-Samad rejected as a valid reason, saying that Voltaire would turn in his grave if he would learn what understanding of free opinion and free speech some people in the culture business would have 230 years later, in thios country where Voltaire once lived.

German links:

http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/literatur/hamed-abdel-samad-der-islamische-faschismus-erscheint-nicht-in-frankreich-a-1104945.html

Personal comment by Abdel-Samad:

http://www.achgut.com/artikel/la_france_in_trance_hurra_sie_kapitulieren


Es ist noch nicht lange her, da schrieb dieser Verleger "Je suis Charlie", heute schreibt er "Ich habe Angst, Charlie zu werden." - Not long time ago, this publisher wrote "Je suis Charlie", today he writes "I am afraid to become Charlie". I once talked with the man for a short time. Good man, back then when I met him he still was a bit softer, but today seeing the truth much more uncompromised - and different to so many cowards he dares to speak it out despite the threats for his life this brings. Needless to say that the Islamophile German establishment of politicians, left feuilleton and Islam-understanders hate him like the plague: he leaves nothing of their precious illusions. And nhaving been a "radical Islamist" himself and educated by his father hwo was/is cleric of fame in egypt, he knows what he talks of - better than many of those retarded self-declared Islam experts and academics that occupy our media that do not grow tired of telling us that Islam has never nothing to do with anything.

May that needed luck always be with you, Sir - and your bodyguards always on guard.

[Nippelspanner]

You should have done, why didn't you? :nope:

You're slipping old boy, slipping.
What can I say, time takes its toll.

[Oberon]

What can I say, time takes its toll.

Time and tide takes it toll on all of us. :salute:

[Nippelspanner]

We can agree on that at least.

[Mittelwaechter]

Sunday in a street cafe, at the next table...

Why are you beating your wife?

Because she beats me.

Hello? We are not talking about her!

How often do I have to tell you, we are talking about you? How often do I have to repeat it?

So why are you beating your wife?

[mapuc]

Heard following on Danish TV
(Said by a politician) on the question if he think we are at war against Islam(33 % have said in a survey they believe/think Denmark/Western are at war with Islam)
We are at war against the radical Islamic world and in a cultural fight with the Moderate Muslim whereby the Quran should be a part of the Danish Constitution or as whole.

Markus

[Oberon]

I think it would be a dangerous step to enter into a war on Islam, and quite frankly I think it would be non-sensical, like most of these other 'Wars on x' blanket statements that we've had over the years, 'The War on Terror', 'The War on Drugs', 'The War on Christmas' and so on.
We should be vigilent against extremism, in any form, and push back against terrorism, by denying the terrorists the satisfaction of seeing their goals achieved.
Sadly, I don't believe that any of what I've just said will actually happen.
So buckle up, because things are going to get dark.