The all purpose terrorism thread featuring plenty of allah akbar

[Oberon]

I'm no fan of Trump but he hasn't advocated putting anyone in a camp.

This is correct, my mistake and I retract that statement of earlier. :yep:

[Buddahaid]

Just catching up. In comparison, the one big difference between the two ideologies is one is taken as God's will while the other is a political party. I don't recall Hitler ever calling himself god with power over people's afterlife.

[Skybird]

Look at PEGIDA, they're not against Jews and yet a keynote speaker (a Turk) at one of their rallies calling for the removal of Muslims from Germany says that "there were other alternatives - but unfortunately the concentration camps are out of order at the moment."

You are just not correctly informed, and German media indeed have started a campaign on that, spreading a total misinterpretation of what Akif Pirincci actually has said and they did so by my most favourite rethoric overkill trick: quoting out of context. Oh how well I know this trick. If I would have gotten a dollar every time it was tried on me, I would be able to buy a new bicycle . An expensive one.

I am no fan of Pirincci, for reasons that do not belong here, however, the full quote is going like this:

"Offenkundig scheint man bei der Macht die Angst und den Respekt vor dem eigenen Volk so restlos abgelegt zu haben, dass man ihm schulterzuckend die Ausreise empfehlen kann, wenn er gefälligst nicht pariert. Es gäbe natürlich andere Alternativen, aber die KZ sind ja derzeit außer Betrieb.“

Translation: Obviously those in power have lost any fear and concern of the people , that with a shouldershrug now one can even recommend all Germans (objecting the indiscrimated mass migration into Germany, Skybird) to simply leave Germany themselves, if they do not want to obey as they should. There could be another alternative, of course, but unfortunately the KZs are offline currently.

An aggressive rethoric by the man, no doubt, but one that is typical for him.

This quote stands in a context. Pirincci at this part of his speech referred to an event from Octobre 14th 2015, when the Regierungspräsdident (governing president) of the city of Kassel, Walther Lübke, a CDU man, used a public assembly to tell the public and journalists that germans who disagree with Merkel's policy to let in everybody who wants to come, are free and would not be hinderd to leave Germany once and forever.

http://www.turi2.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Akif-Pirin%C3%A7ci-150.jpg

Pirincci is a provoking, obscene writer, he is know to use gutter language to make his points, because in Germany political correctness and collective duty to comply with ordered "voluntary" solidarity and consensus on opinions and views have been pushed that far that this is the only way to get noticed in streamlined mass media anymore. I may sympathise with what he has to say, but I do not like the way he delivers his points, he offers too open flanks for counterattacking his cause, by that doing it more damage than benefits. But one thing he is not, on this here can be no doubt: he is neither a Nazi, nor a blind Muslim-hater wanting to slaughter them in scores. That is bull.

Needless to say that our German quality media totally and completely ignored the context and full quote I explained. But what I give there is true, you can easily check it out via the web if you understand German. Pirincci, a Muslim of Turkish decent, knowing quite well what he is talking and writing about when writing about Islam, may not be a good speaker, and his provoking and vulgar gutter language is not everybody's taste (its the reasons I do not line up with him and his side), but one has to understand that this is stage-acting only, an extreme tool he uses, and often abuses and uses beyond the limits. Which shows imo that he is either not too clever, or or is helpless somewhat. However, his shamelessness is possible only because he was not raised in Germany, and it helps him to disrespect the demanded consensus of politically demanded "right" views and opinions. However, it is easier to paint him as an Islamophobic irrational man hater and Nazi sympathiser, than to care for trying to counter the points he makes in his essays and writings - and which are much more difficult to counter than just defaming the man and mobilizing the masses by telling lies about him.

Finally, Pirincci since then is in a huge legal offensive against media, organisations and individuals, sueing them for defamation, slander and character assassination. And he is winning them and already has won several of them. Another thing you do not read about in Geman quality media.

Personally I do not like him, but I defend him. its a case of defending free speech and fighting back slander and lies that gets used as weapons to destroy resistance to the wanted official political goals.

The speech, btw, was a very bad one anyway. He simply is no good speaker anyway, and too shy for the task. This makes the cointrast between his vulgarities and provokations, and his friendly, shy and polite appearasnce even more - well, it just doe snot match.

Stick to your essays and books, Akif. ;) But don't hold speeches on public stages. Sometimes its better to just write songs - but leave the singing of them to others.

[Oberon]

You are just not correctly informed, and German media indeed have started a campaign on that, spreading a total misinterpretation of what Akif Pirincci actually has said and they did so by my most favourite rethoric overkill trick: quoting out of context. Oh how well I know this trick. If I would have gotten a dollar every time it was tried on me, I would be able to buy a new bicycle . An expensive one.

I am no fan of Pirincci, for reasons that do not belong here, however, the full quote is going like this:

"Offenkundig scheint man bei der Macht die Angst und den Respekt vor dem eigenen Volk so restlos abgelegt zu haben, dass man ihm schulterzuckend die Ausreise empfehlen kann, wenn er gefälligst nicht pariert. Es gäbe natürlich andere Alternativen, aber die KZ sind ja derzeit außer Betrieb.“

Translation: Obviously those in power have lost any fear and concern of the people , that with a shouldershrug now one can even recommend all Germans (objecting the indiscrimated mass migration into Germany, Skybird) to simply leave Germany themselves, if they do not want to obey as they should. There could be another alternative, of course, but unfortunately the KZs are offline currently.

An aggressive rethoric by the man, no doubt, but one that is typical for him.

This quote stands in a context. Pirincci at this part of his speech referred to an event from Octobre 14th 2015, when the Regierungspräsdident (governing president) of the city of Kassel, Walther Lübke, a CDU man, used a public assembly to tell the public and journalists that germans who disagree with Merkel's policy to let in everybody who wants to come, are free and would not be hinderd to leave Germany once and forever.


Ah, well, that makes sense. Yes, I can understand the twisted and subjective quoting problem...heck, sometimes I have done it myself, it's just too easy to refuse when you want to try to score a quick point.
One must admire the irony though, of a group of people feeling intimidated by another group of people, so they seek to return the favour. Intimidation following intimidation, and eventually that intimidation will turn to violence.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, as a wise man once said. :hmmm:

[Skybird]

Pegida is a very mixed bag of people. There are rightwing nutters amongst them, true. But to minimise Pegida to just that, means to not understand why it has formed up at all. But like with the AfD, before it indeed was hijacked by rightwingers, it is easier to defame them all as Nazis and rightwinged extremists. The truth in that claim is of limited reach, but it is the easiest and most potent winning formula to brandmark and ban them forever.

However, I avoid both. Too inconsistent, too emotional, too self-contradicting, too uncaring and indifferent towards those abusing them for their own - different - interests. Whatever it needs to stop and bring down the EU and Euro and to contain Islam in Europe and the like - these two do not have the needed substance. Not at all.

[Schroeder]

I would say that banning large mosques is going a bit too far, but the rest is fair enough, except for where you say no more mass immigration of Muslims. Now, what about if these are Muslims who are fleeing from the radical Muslims that you're looking to stop?
As I've said earlier I'm not against taking refugees in. I just want them to go back once Syria is at peace again.

Going back to our 1937 Germany comparison of earlier, Jewish Germans fleeing Germany, do we take them in? Even though they're from a nation run by the Nazi ideology, but they are in fact victims of that ideology rather than followers of it.
How do you split the two?
In case of the Jews it's pretty easy. They by definition can't be part of the Nazi ranks so there should be very little danger to import that ideology with them. The problem is we're not talking immigration of Jews but immigration of millions of "average" Germans who might or might not be in with the Nazis and don't reject Nazism per se but just the ultra radical version. "Moderate" Nazism is ok to them.


Now, no-one has banned PEGIDA even though it's heading down the NASDAP path, heck even the head of the Central Council of Jews in Germany can see the problems inherant in it, "He stated that the fear of Islamist terror was being exploited to disparage an entire religion. For him this was unacceptable."
Funny just two months ago the central counsel of the Jews in Germany stated their fear of a massive rise of antisemitism because of the many Muslim immigrants....
http://www.zentralratdjuden.de/de/article/5427.spitzengespr%C3%A4ch-von-cdu-und-zentralrat-der-juden.html



Have I ever said that? No, the alternative is rational reaction,
.
.
.
Let the refugees come, police the borders certainly, restrict them if necessary, house the refugees in temporary camps and work through them carefully and with the help of all nations of the EU, before rehoming them equally across the EU.

How do you work through them carefully? A lot of them have no papers and we know now that Daesh has most likely an official Syrian passport printer.

Rehoming them in the EU is a dream that won't come true as most member states don't give a sheet and leave it all to Germany and Sweden. So there goes the rational approach right there.


Deport them where though, and how do you stop them coming back?
If they have a passport send them back to their home country. If they have "lost" their papers make the person chose a country. If he refuses to pick one just send them to the Sahara. That will make them remember where they came from. Yes, that's quite nasty (and perhaps not that realistic) but it's the only way to not be played for fools by people who throw away their papers to prevent deportation.
Take fingerprints from all immigrants and filter those out that have already been deported once.


I'll admit now that I misattributed the camp project to Trump, I've seen since that he wants them all banned from entering the US rather than put in camps, but he did want all Muslims to carry ID cards if I recall correctly.
That's a step down a dangerous road in my book, and that's how these things start, when we accept that such steps are necessary, when the extreme becomes the normal.
Again, Trump is an idiot. (well, so am I, but that's a different story....:shifty:)


And the anti-Islam ideology isn't dangerous either?Maybe, maybe not. Maybe it's because I'm from a country that lived under Nazi oppression that I'm so vehemently against totalitarian ideologies. But what would have happened if no one had stopped the Nazis? What if people had decided to just let them do their thing and not to take an anti Nazi position? I think the world wouldn't look the same today and it would be ugly looking.


I find that reacting to extremism with extremism is hardly a wise choice of action.
Define extremism please. I'm not talking about killing. I'm not talking about mass imprisonment just for being Muslim. I'm not saying to tear down all mosques. All I say is that Islam should not become stronger here and prevent it from doing so by the means I've pointed out above.


I guess if we want to keep with the World War II analogies then yes, every Muslim is a threat because they follow the evil ideology of Islam and should be treated as such, being isolated from society and interned in camps until it can be determined that they're not going to explode. After all, that's what America did in World War II, it's what we did in World War II to any Germans or people of German descent, including the German Jews who had fled to the UK seeking refuge from Nazi Germany.
I thought we were better than that, but I guess I was wrong. It's just a pity that we have to watch history repeat itself again, but what else would I expect from the human race, I suppose? :O:So what do you propose? Let massive numbers of Muslims into your country and hope for the best? Hope that they will magically integrate much better than the other three million did 50 years earlier? What if they keep their tradition of having many children? What will you tell your great grandchildren when they have become a minority in their own country? "Well, we saw it coming but it was political incorrect to address or even do something about it, so please wear your headscarf at all times"?
Yes that is still far in the future but as it is it's just a question of when, not if.:-?

[em2nought]

I'm pretty sick of generations that can't get anything right pissing on the western allied greatest generation for doing what they had to do to beat the dirt bags that they had to beat. If only we were run by the western allied WW2 generation today. :salute:

[Oberon]

As I've said earlier I'm not against taking refugees in. I just want them to go back once Syria is at peace again.

That's fair enough, although to be honest what would become of those who fled Assad? Sticky situation.

In case of the Jews it's pretty easy. They by definition can't be part of the Nazi ranks so there should be very little danger to import that ideology with them. The problem is we're not talking immigration of Jews but immigration of millions of "average" Germans who might or might not be in with the Nazis and don't reject Nazism per se but just the ultra radical version. "Moderate" Nazism is ok to them.

By definition maybe, but that didn't stop some of them from being so. Stella Kubler for example. What would stop Nazis sending agents posing as Jews?


Funny just two months ago the central counsel of the Jews in Germany stated their fear of a massive rise of antisemitism because of the many Muslim immigrants....
http://www.zentralratdjuden.de/de/article/5427.spitzengespr%C3%A4ch-von-cdu-und-zentralrat-der-juden.html

Aye, sadly there is that problem, lots of fear around at the moment.

How do you work through them carefully? A lot of them have no papers and we know now that Daesh has most likely an official Syrian passport printer.

That's a tricky question and a lengthy process that would have to involve intelligence agencies and the like. Now that Daesh have a Syrian passport printer that's going to fubar things up somewhat. However, we already have a process which is used to weed out the real asylum seekers from the economic migrants, and the useful economic migrants from the useless ones.
Let's face it, if you were forced to flee Germany, as perhaps you think that one day you will, you would hope that another country would take you in and let you live there without intimidation or the continuation of the fear of persecution that you faced in Germany.

Rehoming them in the EU is a dream that won't come true as most member states don't give a sheet and leave it all to Germany and Sweden. So there goes the rational approach right there.

Aye, you're telling me. Stupid selfish idiots the lot of them.
Believe me, if it was down to me it would be a case of "If you want EU membership and all the benefits that go with it, then you have to take the downsides that come with it too." But many nations just want the good stuff and shirk the bad. :nope:

If they have a passport send them back to their home country. If they have "lost" their papers make the person chose a country. If he refuses to pick one just send them to the Sahara. That will make them remember where they came from. Yes, that's quite nasty (and perhaps not that realistic) but it's the only way to not be played for fools by people who throw away their papers to prevent deportation.
Take fingerprints from all immigrants and filter those out that have already been deported once.

Fingerprints is a good idea, deporting to the Sahara is perhaps a bit over the top but I can see your point. Might not be a bad idea to take DNA samples too.
Of course, this only works on the legal routes, and if someone has been legally deported then they won't come back on the legal route.

There's also the problems of those who have become state-less. I read a while ago about a man from...I think it was Iraq, who came to the UK seeking asylum, he was denied and sent back to Iraq but when he arrived at Iraq he was denied entry and was sent back to the UK where he's been in an detainee center ever since as his application for asylum is reassessed.
This happens a lot, the UNHCR has estimated there are around 10-11 million stateless people in the world, and you can be sure that a good number of the migrants who have come to Germany are in that 10-11 million category.
So where doe someone who has no country go when no country wants him or her? :hmmm:

Again, Trump is an idiot. (well, so am I, but that's a different story....:shifty:)

Mate, we're all idiots, just in varying ways. :03:

Maybe, maybe not. Maybe it's because I'm from a country that lived under Nazi oppression that I'm so vehemently against totalitarian ideologies. But what would have happened if no one had stopped the Nazis? What if people had decided to just let them do their thing and not to take an anti Nazi position? I think the world wouldn't look the same today and it would be ugly looking.

That's a fair point, and I can see where you're coming from. To be honest, if Hitler had not invaded Poland, and if Stalin had not come knocking then Nazi Germany probably would have continued until it inevitably collapsed under its own chaotic energies. Look at the Soviet Union, no-one stopped them, and Communist China, no-one stopped them either.

Define extremism please. I'm not talking about killing. I'm not talking about mass imprisonment just for being Muslim. I'm not saying to tear down all mosques. All I say is that Islam should not become stronger here and prevent it from doing so by the means I've pointed out above.

I define extremism as the targetted discrimination of people in a radical manner, be it by killing, expulsion, or detention. The thing is, you can't say that you're targetting Islam without saying that you're targetting Muslims, all Muslims. It would be like saying that you say that Christianity is a radical religion but not all Christians are radical. The truth is that it's the other way around, it doesn't so much boil down to the writing, because if it did then every single Muslim would be walking into their nearest public place with some explosives and a machine gun, what it boils down to is the individual person, and their interpretation of the writing. Not every Christian is a vehement anti-homosexual, and anti-abortion preacher, and let's face it, most people who state that they are a member of a set religion follow not even half of that religions stated guidelines or laws, do they? Everyone has their own definition of what it is all about, and some of those definitions are violent and dangerous, no doubt about it.
So how can two people look at the same book and behave completely differently? They're both Muslims, although both may claim that the other isn't a proper Muslim, and if you take the stand that Islam is evil, then that means that since they are both self-confessed followers of Islam then they are both by definition evil. It's far too wide a blanket to cast.

So what do you propose? Let massive numbers of Muslims into your country and hope for the best? Hope that they will magically integrate much better than the other three million did 50 years earlier?

Well, has Germany become a Sultanate over the past 50 years?

What if they keep their tradition of having many children?

Generally speaking that tends to decline over time. We had a similar problem with people imigrating from Africa, but that reduced once they had access to better healthcare and contraception.
"But Oberon," I hear you cry "that still means that they're going to have a higher birth rate than us!"
Yes, this is true, it is estimated by 2030 Muslims in France and Belgium will make up over ten percent of the population...

Wait a minute...ten percent?

Is that all?

Yup, at the moment conversion rates in France have doubled since the 1980s with 100,000 French National Muslim converts living in France...out of a total population of 66 million.

What about Germany?

Germany has a population of over 81 million, and I believe about 11.9% of that population are migrants, although obviously that will rise by at least five to ten percent over the coming years because of the Syrian crisis. That makes Germany the third highest in terms of immigration rate, behind Russia and the United States, and just in front of, ironically enough, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. :haha:

Anyway, back to Muslims, and according to wikipedia, somewhere between 1.9 and 5.4% of the population of Germany are Muslims, somewhere in the region of 4.3 million.

So 4.3 million people are scaring a country of 81 million.

What will you tell your great grandchildren when they have become a minority in their own country? "Well, we saw it coming but it was political incorrect to address or even do something about it, so please wear your headscarf at all times"?
Yes that is still far in the future but as it is it's just a question of when, not if.:-?

I think it would probably be my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandchildren who would become a minority, and by that time we probably would have nuked ourselves into an early grave, immigrated to another planet or uploaded our collective consciousness into an electronic mainframe I would hope.
Besides, my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great(x20000) grandfather would be mortified to see me typing a collective-bastardisation of European languages into this screen, not to mention a liberal smattering of Arabic and Hindu thrown into the mix.
He would probably be pretty angry that the nation I lived in worshiped the Christian God too instead of the Pagan Gods of old, and I wouldn't even begin to get him started on our culture. :haha:
He would probably be confused why we made such a big fuss about child pornography and pedophilia too. :hmmm:

In other words, don't buy into the alarmist propaganda that Islam is going to overthrow us in a generation or two, because, to be honest, it's very unlikely to happen, and even if it did, it would only be the continuation of a process that is as old as civilization itself, and our descendents eventually wouldn't even know the difference.

[Oberon]

I'm pretty sick of generations that can't get anything right pissing on the western allied greatest generation for doing what they had to do to beat the dirt bags that they had to beat. If only we were run by the western allied WW2 generation today. :salute:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegiance_%28musical%29

[Aktungbby]

Let the refugees come, police the borders certainly, restrict them if necessary, house the refugees in temporary camps and work through them carefully and with the help of all nations of the EU, before rehoming them equally across the EU.



Deport them where though, and how do you stop them coming back?
I'll admit now that I misattributed the camp project to Trump, I've seen since that he wants them all banned from entering the US rather than put in camps, but he did want all Muslims to carry ID cards if I recall correctly.
That's a step down a dangerous road in my book, and that's how these things start, when we accept that such steps are necessary, when the extreme becomes the normal.



I guess if we want to keep with the World War II analogies then yes, every Muslim is a threat because they follow the evil ideology of Islam and should be treated as such, being isolated from society and interned in camps until it can be determined that they're not going to explode. After all, that's what America did in World War II, it's what we did in World War II to any Germans or people of German descent, including the German Jews who had fled to the UK seeking refuge from Nazi Germany.
I thought we were better than that, but I guess I was wrong. It's just a pity that we have to watch history repeat itself again, but what else would I expect from the human race, I suppose? :O: Quote:

Actually you separate the accompanied families from single young men of a certain age demographic; Isolate and thoroughly check out the singles first; it's not foolproof but it's a good deal better than the obvious current sloppiness which will leave post-Hebdo Europe exposed. Having, for years myself, checked every ID of every person; removed all Kirpan's from Sikhs entering Federal buildings (some objected on 'religious grounds') and personally inspected all rental bobtail trucks parked curbside by Federal buildings following Oklahoma City...it's slow, meticulous, and tedious; and there cannot be a single lapse. I recollect Ike kept an entire "army in captivity" following WWII https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disarmed_Enemy_Forces (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disarmed_Enemy_Forces) The number of Germans surrendering to U.S. forces shot up from 313,000 by the end of the first quarter of 1945, to 2.6 million by April 1945 and more than 5 million in May. Most were kept so until 1948?!! The Russian POWs did not fare as well...some until 1956. Due to the vast influx and danger this is, unfortunately, the best mass-model we have. Naturally the caloric-food issue should not be as severe as 1945. Technology should considerably speed the vetting/background process. The "kindness coefficient" already demonstated should be superior as well. Moreover the refugees cannot fail to appreciate the terrific strain imposed and would likely cooperate-considering what they're fleeing: literally a Götterdämmerung of sorts. It's not a great plan but everyone has to be checked w/o exception and it's the low-pay front line security types who gotta do it.EDIT: slight update since the Paris attacks....the extreme has become the normal...throw in the World Trade Center for good measure.

:hmmm:That might work, but it'll take a fairly big logistical effort, and one has to remember that it's not just single males that are involved in this war, the women often appear alongside their men too. Rarely mothers though, it would seem, so they might be considered a safe zone.
Of course, separating all the young men and putting them in one zone is probably just asking for trouble, so you'd have to split them up and again we're coming back to some heavy logistics. If you spread them out through the EU then you've also got to factor in that each country has a different set budget for their immigration processing sector, and also different budgets for security, which means that these people are going to receive different treatment depending on where they end up. I don't mean different treatment in regards to the likelihood of having their applications accepted (although this is also true) but I mean different treatment in regards to how they are regarded during their time in the process. I suspect that in Eastern Europe they will be regarded as little more than criminals, which means that if their applications are passed then they will enter the nation feeling like criminals, and likely slide into criminality or extremism.
It's definitely an approach though, but I think it might well be beyond the EU to implement, I mean right now it can't even implement a simple spreading out of the load. :/\\!!

[Schroeder]

Well, has Germany become a Sultanate over the past 50 years?
No, but the voice of Islam demanding things is getting louder.


Generally speaking that tends to decline over time. We had a similar problem with people imigrating from Africa, but that reduced once they had access to better healthcare and contraception.
"But Oberon," I hear you cry "that still means that they're going to have a higher birth rate than us!"
Yes, this is true, it is estimated by 2030 Muslims in France and Belgium will make up over ten percent of the population...
Contraceptions are against Islamic law.:03:
I'm not sure how much the birthrate declines over time, I just know that I can't walk 500 meters in my hometown without bumping into a child cart pushed by someone with a headscarf... just personal observation, no statistic....Though I live in an area with several labour intensive industries so it has been a magnet for immigration workers over the decades.




So 4.3 million people are scaring a country of 81 million.
If 4,3 million can demand more and more and cause trouble without the rest being able to fight back as that would be so un PC then yes, that's scary.


Besides, my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great(x20000) grandfather would be mortified to see me typing a collective-bastardisation of European languages into this screen, not to mention a liberal smattering of Arabic and Hindu thrown into the mix....
Fair point. But there is 2.000 years between you and him so it's understandable that things have changed and he would be very confused. Islam tries to force it's 1.600 years old ideology onto modern people and that confuses me just as much. People always say everything was better in the past but I prefer to not go back to Mohammad's age. :yep:



In other words, don't buy into the alarmist propaganda that Islam is going to overthrow us in a generation or two, because, to be honest, it's very unlikely to happen, and even if it did, it would only be the continuation of a process that is as old as civilization itself, and our descendents eventually wouldn't even know the difference.They won't overthrow us in the next two generations. But the foundation is set and on a local scale there are some areas where Muslims already have a majority. That could get "interesting" in the not so distant future. When I notice something is wrong with my body I rather get treatment early before things become irreversible.

[Tchocky]

Sort of related, don't feel like making a new thread.

French far right National Front 'routed' in key vote (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35088276)
France's far-right National Front (FN) has failed to win a single region in the second round of elections, exit polls indicate.
Early results suggest the party was beaten into third place, despite leading in six of 13 regions in the first round of votes a week ago.
The polls predict Nicolas Sarkozy's centre-right Republicans will win most seats ahead of the ruling Socialists.
Acknowledging defeat, Ms Le Pen pledged to keep fighting.
"Nothing can stop us. Long live the French Republic! Long live the nation! Long live France!" she told her supporters.
.

[Tchocky]

When I notice something is wrong with my body I rather get treatment early before things become irreversible.

Can we try not to talk about people this way?

[Oberon]

No, but the voice of Islam demanding things is getting louder.

Everyones voice is getting louder, it's called having better access to communications. We wouldn't even be hearing about half of this stuff if it wasn't for the internet or mass media.

Contraceptions are against Islamic law.:03:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/islamethics/contraception.shtml

There is no single attitude to contraception within Islam; however eight of the nine classic schools of Islamic law permit it.


I'm not sure how much the birthrate declines over time, I just know that I can't walk 500 meters in my hometown without bumping into a child cart pushed by someone with a headscarf... just personal observation, no statistic....Though I live in an area with several labour intensive industries so it has been a magnet for immigration workers over the decades.

Then why so surprised about the number of immigrants?

If 4,3 million can demand more and more and cause trouble without the rest being able to fight back as that would be so un PC then yes, that's scary.

There's a difference between fighting back and becoming like the radical preachers that everyone hates. :O: If the radical preachers are saying that the west is declaring war on Islam, are you in agreement that this is what should be done? Sure, there are problems with certain things being taken too far, even PC has its extremists, and no doubt those who hate PC would call me one. But what political correctness originally began life as was actually trying to not treat other people like crap just because they're different to us. Some people think that that means we should do everything they ask us to do, but generally speaking it means just not being a dick to them.

Fair point. But there is 2.000 years between you and him so it's understandable that things have changed and he would be very confused. Islam tries to force it's 1.600 years old ideology onto modern people and that confuses me just as much. People always say everything was better in the past but I prefer to not go back to Mohammad's age. :yep:

Islam tries to force nothing on anybody, it's a bloody book for goodness sake, how is it going to force something on you, grab you with its pages?
Islamic extremists and to a point political Islam will try to force their versions of Islam on you, and that's where the problem lies, with them, not with a book. We declared war on Germany, not Mein Kampf.

They won't overthrow us in the next two generations.

They likely won't overthrow us at all.

But the foundation is set and on a local scale there are some areas where Muslims already have a majority. That could get "interesting" in the not so distant future. When I notice something is wrong with my body I rather get treatment early before things become irreversible.

So Islam is a cancer that must be cut out? These people are a disease? :hmmm:

[Oberon]

Can we try not to talk about people this way?

You know, if I referred to Jews like this, I would be banned in two seconds flat. :hmmm:

[Oberon]

Quote:

EDIT: slight update since the Paris attacks....the extreme has become the normal...throw in the World Trade Center for good measure.

:hmmm:

How many people have died of Islamic terrorism in the west since 2000?

How many Muslim people have been killed by coalition forces in Iraq and Afghanistan since 2000? I'm talking civilian casualties here, collateral damage.

I think the blood bill has been repaid, twice over.

[mapuc]

Said by a Danish Politicians, who's a Muslim and from Syria

"The Jews breed Nobel Price winner, the Muslim breed terrorist"

Markus

[Oberon]

Said by a Danish Politicians, who's a Muslim and from Syria

"The Jews breed Nobel Price winner, the Muslim breed terrorist"

Markus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_Nobel_laureates

[mapuc]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_Nobel_laureates

The Nobel peace price or what they say in English

I think he meant Nobel price in Medicine, Physics a.s.o

Markus

[Oberon]

The Nobel peace price or what they say in English

I think he meant Nobel price in Medicine, Physics a.s.o

Markus

Well, it is true, to be honest that people of the Jewish faith have won more Nobel Prizes than any other faith, something like over 20% of the total winners. Couldn't really say why, perhaps there's something about the Jewish faith that encourages science and technology, or perhaps they're just more focused on teaching and learning. Who can say?

But to say that Muslims only breed terrorists is inaccurate.

In short, never speak in absolutes. :03:

[Schroeder]

Can we try not to talk about people this way?
You know, if I referred to Jews like this, I would be banned in two seconds flat. :hmmm:

You guys put words into my mouth that I have never said. I didn't call anyone anything.
I used a metaphor about a problem that becomes worse over time if nothing happens and that everyone is familiar with.:/\\!!

Anyway I've said what I wanted to say and I'm out of here. No one will change the minds of others here anyway.

[Oberon]

Words into your mouth or not, if one were to replace Muslim or Islam in your replies with Jew and Judaism.

For example:

No, and I never said we were supposed to kill all Jews. It's the ideology that's evil and must be fought in my opinion.

or

So what do you propose? Let massive numbers of Jews into your country and hope for the best?

I just know that I can't walk 500 meters in my hometown without bumping into a child cart pushed by someone with a kippah

Don't you see? This is how it starts, by making them subhuman so it's easier for us to do things to them that we wouldn't dream of doing to others. Even down to the language that's used.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohrtFuxUzZE

Let's face it, when you find yourself in a position that is agreeing with the radical preachers of Islam who say that the west is declaring a war on Islam and against all Muslims, then surely you must take a moment to wonder if what you think is not walking into the very trap that want you to walk into? To demonise those people with a mass-generalisation and push them into the welcoming arms of radicalisation?

By all means, detain the radical preachers, bomb the extremists, surgically remove the problem, but targetting an entire ideology, an entire religion, and everyone within it? How can that possibly turn out to be anything but a disaster for all involved in it?

[Nippelspanner]

In other words, don't buy into the alarmist propaganda that Islam is going to overthrow us in a generation or two, because, to be honest, it's very unlikely to happen.
Who says that?
What proves that?

On the other side, demographic studies clearly point out where things are going.
My country for example?
We Germans, apparently we do not like to shag anymore for the purpose of creating a family.
Muslims often have very large families. Where the German family has its 1.3(?) kids, muslim families often have 4+.

Now, what might happen when a group of people that now is a minority will, in 10-30 years, be a majority or at least definitely no minority anymore?
They, their culture and therefor also religion, will get more influence and sooner or later, you see certain things change.

If things go on with the political correctness syndrome and 'Gutmenschentum' like they are now, it won't be long until the Muezzin is waking us up every morning.

Can't wait.

Now, I am not against foreigners, foreign cultures etc. at all. It is the opposite. However, in medicine I learned early:
Sola dosis facit venenum
(The dose makes the poison)
I want to point out that I do not consider people poison, but certain ideologies for sure - just in case someone feels his jimmies rustled over this analogy.

[mapuc]

Well, it is true, to be honest that people of the Jewish faith have won more Nobel Prizes than any other faith, something like over 20% of the total winners. Couldn't really say why, perhaps there's something about the Jewish faith that encourages science and technology, or perhaps they're just more focused on teaching and learning. Who can say?

But to say that Muslims only breed terrorists is inaccurate.

In short, never speak in absolutes. :03:

True- It was some days after the Terror in Paris he said those words.

Here is more what he and some other moderate Muslim have said at a conservative think tank on Thursday (Dec. 3

http://www.religionnews.com/2015/12/04/terrorism-islam-muslim-california-shooting/

[Oberon]

It's not impossible, I'll admit, a report back in April suggested that the global population of Muslims might come close to the global population of Christians by 2050, but the growth would be concentrated around the Middle-East, North Africa and Sub-Saharan Africa. I don't think anyone needs to guess the reasons why this is the case.

In Europe though, Christians retain the upper hand, while Muslims go from 5.9 in 2010 to about 10%, a 4.1% growth. Which is big, but still probably the third in line behind Christianity and No-Religion. Actually the biggest religion to grow over the past hundred years has been atheism, and agnosticism.

http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/religious-projections-2010-2050/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_religion#Historical_growth


Honestly I'd be more confident in seeing the Muslim population go from the current average of 3 per family to something like 1.8 or so, still higher than the average, but lower than the current. I'd also expect to see a rise of Muslims abandoning their faith as they gradually westernise.
Sure, the first two or three generations will keep most of their traditions and beliefs, that's what happens in all major movements of cultures, but eventually they will intergrate into us and we will intergrate into them.
There might well be clashes, some violence, a lot of fear and hatred will be going around, but it will eventually die down.

If it doesn't, if this is some kind of mass invasion, and colonisation of the west, well I guess what goes around comes around, we colonised and invaded plenty of other nations, mostly African, so I guess history has a wry sense of humour. :haha:

Either which way, is it really worth going Third Reich over? :hmmm:


EDIT: An interesting note in that Pew report indicates that historians believe that Islam may well have outnumbered Christianity before, between 1000 and 1600, during the years of the Black Death.

[eddie]

Turkey refuses to pull out its troops from Iraq, even as the Iraqi Government told them to. And Iraq complained to the UN about it. Now Erdogbone explains why he won't pull out his heavily armed unit. Because he has to protect Sunni's from the Shia dominated Govt in Baghdad. Who the heck does he think he is? Already protests are occurring in Baghdad, and some Shia backed militias are ready to fight Turkish troops near Mosul. Why are troops near Mosul, is he going to provide Daesh's leader, Bagaddy a way out if things go south?

Just another day in the centuries long war between Shia and Sunni. Why were we so stupid to get sucked into this never ending mess!:nope:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/12/erdogan-turkish-troops-iraq-pm-abadi-request-151209215017789.html

[Oberon]

Just another day in the centuries long war between Shia and Sunni. Why were we so stupid to get sucked into this never ending mess!:nope:

Black Gold. :/\\!!

[Nippelspanner]

Either which way, is it really worth going Third Reich over? :hmmm:
Who is going Third Reich over it?

Are you referring to what you said earlier?
Don't you see? This is how it starts, by making them subhuman so it's easier for us to do things to them that we wouldn't dream of doing to others. Even down to the language that's used.I'm not sure people are on the same page here.
Some yell "Nazi!" way too quickly, while most simply feel their country's stability and security threatened by an ideology(!) - and rightly so - not by people of a certain skin color or from a certain country. The goal is not to destroy anyone, the goal is to keep Europe clean from dangerous ideologies.

Saying this, I can hear people mumbling catchphrases like "Islamophob!".
The term of "Islamophobia" and all the other nice argument-ejection-seats from the, mostly, left side of this debate sure start to get old when not a day goes by where we can all see what this certain ideology causes.
Just today, someone attacked a Kindergarten teacher with a knife/sharp object, trying to cut his throat (unsuccessfully), saying that "this was just the beginning!".
Surprise, he is muslim. :shifty:
Oh wait: "Terror has no religion!" really!? :/\\!!
This isn't directed at you Oberon, I'm aware you don't fall for this crap, but so many do. So many just repeat what others injected them without thinking for themselves or because they are too afraid to say something that doesn't go along with the expected political correctness of these days.

And I still don't see Buddhists or Christians yelling "God/Buddha is great!" while trying to brutally murder anyone who doesn't agree and as long as this doesn't happen, let's not bring other ideologies into this.
There is one that causes problems right now, that does indeed seem to be dangerous, very much so.

But sure, let's rather find mostly cheap excuses to protect an ideology that would crush everything the west stands for right away, if it only could.

#thxreligion

[Rockstar]

Q:I see my neighborhood changing and it worries me.

A: All muslims are not the problem.

Q: I dont feel safe in my neighborhood anymore.

A: How dare you say all muslims are the problem

Q: I view the the current islamic ideology as something dangerous.

A: Just replace Islamic with Jewish and you sound just like a nazi.

Q: Islamic ideology reminds me of nazisim.

A: Takes one to know one.

Q: My parents have been assaulted by immigrants.

A: All muslims are not the problem.

Q: I wish my government would stop permitting so many immigrants to enter.

A: All muslims are not the problem.

Q: I never said all muslims are the problem.

A: So what's your problem then?

:/\\!!

[Onkel Neal]

Q:I see my neighborhood changing and it worries me.

A: All muslims are not the problem.

Q: I dont feel safe in my neighborhood anymore.

A: How dare you say all muslims are the problem

Q: I view the the current islamic ideology as something dangerous.

A: Just replace Islamic with Jewish and you sound just like a nazi.

Q: Islamic ideology reminds me of nazisim.

A: Takes one to know one.

Q: My parents have been assaulted by immigrants.

A: All muslims are not the problem.

Q: I wish my government would stop permitting so many immigrants to enter.

A: All muslims are not the problem.

Q: I never said all muslims are the problem.

A: So what's your problem then?

:/\\!!

:har:
http://utmbs8iu6w2vs3oz2ez0dj16.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Nugent.jpg

[Rockstar]

The Donald and Ted 'Zee Wango Zee Tango' Nugent for the 2016 ticket. :D

[Aktungbby]

I can't wait for trump to get elected...and be referred to as The Donald http://media.cagle.com/29/2015/12/08/172708_600.jpghttp://media.cagle.com/46/2015/12/08/172714_600.jpg

[Schroeder]

Just today, someone attacked a Kindergarten teacher with a knife/sharp object, trying to cut his throat (unsuccessfully), saying that "this was just the beginning!".
Surprise, he is muslim. :shifty:

To stay fair it seems this was a hoax.
http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/frankreich-angriff-auf-lehrer-103.html

[Nippelspanner]

To stay fair it seems this was a hoax.
http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/frankreich-angriff-auf-lehrer-103.html
That sucks, there's no need for this crap.
My point still stands, daily news regarding the religion of peace.

[Tchocky]

Q:I see my neighborhood changing and it worries me.

A: All muslims are not the problem.

Q: I dont feel safe in my neighborhood anymore.

A: How dare you say all muslims are the problem

Q: I view the the current islamic ideology as something dangerous.

A: Just replace Islamic with Jewish and you sound just like a nazi.

Q: Islamic ideology reminds me of nazisim.

A: Takes one to know one.

Q: My parents have been assaulted by immigrants.

A: All muslims are not the problem.

Q: I wish my government would stop permitting so many immigrants to enter.

A: All muslims are not the problem.

Q: I never said all muslims are the problem.

A: So what's your problem then?

:/\\!!


Are you happy enough in this conversation or would you like somebody else to talk to?


Bloody hell.

I also talk to myself in the shower. I don't believe it makes me a genius.

[Nippelspanner]

Are you happy enough in this conversation or would you like somebody else to talk to?


Bloody hell.

I also talk to myself in the shower. I don't believe it makes me a genius.
He has a point though.
These are answers we all heard before and you know exactly what he was trying to say - you just don't like it.
However, I can't say he's wrong there.

[ikalugin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0qlOygM8FU
new briefing by the General Staff, eng dub is there, but quality is lacking.

[Tchocky]

You guys put words into my mouth that I have never said. I didn't call anyone anything.
I used a metaphor about a problem that becomes worse over time if nothing happens and that everyone is familiar with.:/\\!!


Hey I understand. I didn't read the pages and pages of posts beforehand. I'm very much not putting words in your mouth or trying to define what you did or did not say.

All I'm saying is that it's not the best way to describe a lot of people. We all know what it sounds like and there are good reasons to make a little effort to not sound like a bigot.

There are enough of those here anyway without the reasonable people coming across the same way.

[CCIP]

You know what I'm very tired of? I'm very tired of people speaking on behalf of other people. You all seem like great experts in Islamic teaching and culture, knowing precisely nothing of it other than what a very skewed media feeds you, and regurgitating language that comes literally from the mouth of fascist ideologues who have defined it thus.

I am so beyond done with this forum :down: No moderation, no effort to be in any way tolerant and friendly, and now even the admin is drinking the cool aid :shifty:

[Tchocky]

He has a point though.

It's just a rubbish point. It's an exercise in self-congratulation dressed up as argument. If Rockstar keeps it up he'll go blind.

It boils down to - "people can be unreasonable". Except with a nice religious angle that makes us all feel warm and fuzzy inside.

These are answers we all heard before and you know exactly what he was trying to say - you just don't like it.

Heard them before, maybe.

That doesn't make them either representative, worth repeating, indicative of what he's talking about, or informative in any way.

However, I can't say he's wrong there.

Wrong about what? That some people have interacted this way? That's all that this could ever say. And of course that would be correct.

If the intent is to say that this is how the majority of these kind of interactions go, well then it's bigoted garbage that, again, isn't worth the TCP/IP packets.

[ikalugin]

You know what I'm very tired of? I'm very tired of people speaking on behalf of other people. You all seem like great experts in Islamic teaching and culture, knowing precisely nothing of it other than what a very skewed media feeds you, and regurgitating language that comes literally from the mouth of fascist ideologues who have defined it thus.

I am so beyond done with this forum :down: No moderation, no effort to be in any way tolerant and friendly, and now even the admin is drinking the cool aid :shifty:
Don't you find the discussion here amusing? I mean even I am a muslim loving humanitarian liberal by comparison :)

[Nippelspanner]

...knowing precisely nothing of it other than what a very skewed media feeds you...
Enlighten us then?
And how do you know who knows what here due to what source?
Simply claiming one is ill-informed without any foundation is no argument at all.

Open the Quran, read a few of the often cited and criticized lines and tell me again how the "skewed media feeds me" ...and then bring the classics: Misunderstood, wrong translation, can't be translated, out of context, ...
(If you included me in that post of yours that is. At least I felt addressed.)

I can only work with what I know and what I see.
And I have seen enough of the [I]'religion of peace' to know that I do not want it in "my" country, because I am convinced that it will lead to very bad things sooner or later.
No one told me to think that way, it is my observation, but it is so convenient to simply call every critic an islamophobe, a liar, someone ill-informed, a right-wing nut etc. isn't it?

Meanwhile, hundreds of people die every week in the name of this ideology, surely we all just misunderstand or are blinded by our hate and fear and what not.

[Nippelspanner]

It's just a rubbish point.
Oh, OK then.


Heard them before, maybe.
'Maybe'? Most definitely (at least from my POV).

That doesn't make them either representative, worth repeating, indicative of what he's talking about, or informative in any way.
Very representative to me, there is a reason why I was nodding my head while reading his post. Been there, heard that.
Maybe that indicates that he didn't just pull that one out of his butt?


If the intent is to say that this is how the majority of these kind of interactions go, well then it's bigoted garbage that, again, isn't worth the TCP/IP packets.
Actually, when you browse the net, read comments under videos (youtube), pictures (imgur/reddit/...) or from articles of various news/political pages you might be surprised, because what he said is exactly "Islam is good/evil discussion in a nutshell".
No matter what you, as a critic of Islam, say, you will definitely hear one or more of the lines he 'quoted'.
That doesn't mean that there aren't people with real arguments for a change, but this very well reflects the majority of debates about this topic, unfortunately.

[Tchocky]

I hate to break it to you man, but YouTube comments or news website comment sections are not the place to go for reasoned arguments from reasonable people.

Go to where the idiots are and all you'll get is idiot comments.

Don't confuse online chatter with actual debate. It usually isn't worth the time.

This thread is getting close to useless the more I read of it.

Doesn't mean there aren't exceptions, but encountering idiots you disagree with on YouTube comments doesn't make you right.


EDIT - and this just proves how stupid the post was in the first place. "Look what some idiot said" isn't often the start of a great argument.

[Nippelspanner]

I hate to break it to you man, but YouTube comments or news website comment sections are not the place to go for reasoned arguments from reasonable people.

Go to where the idiots are and all you'll get is idiot comments.

Don't confuse online chatter with actual debate. It usually isn't worth the time.

This thread is getting close to useless the more I read of it.

Doesn't mean there aren't exceptions, but encountering idiots you disagree with on YouTube comments doesn't make you right.
I agree with you and I am well aware, but you can't simply exclude all these people because you see fit.
They have their (shoddy) opinions, like it or not - and since they are so many, these ARE the most read comments, so again: Rockstar has a point there (which feels weird to say, tbh.)

Edit:
The thread was doomed from the very start.
Every regular here knows that.
Doesn't mean it has no right to exist or one shouldn't try, right?
Not everything said in here was nonsense or useless. But if we look at it from that perspective, we can lock down GT all together and call it a day.
These topics aren't easy to debate. We at Subsim sure aren't the only ones trying... and maybe failing.

[Aktungbby]

You know what I'm very tired of? I'm very tired of people speaking on behalf of other people. You all seem like great experts in Islamic teaching and culture, knowing precisely nothing of it other than what a very skewed media feeds you, and regurgitating language that comes literally from the mouth of fascist ideologues who have defined it thus.

I am so beyond done with this forum :down: No moderation, no effort to be in any way tolerant and friendly, and now even the admin is drinking the cool aid :shifty: That is an outright and damnable lie! Sailor Steve has issued Three red tags infracts in a row to myself, Rockstar, and Oberon 'the ever tolerant' (posts 395,396, 397 and even I managed to quote Mohammend Ali's insightful tolerant imput into the state of world affairs (post 442). Magnificent moderation IMHO! A PhD candidate:salute: should not make blanket statements that ignore the exculpatory facts.:03: Nice comment about administrative Koolaid though!:rock:http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f237/148980d1270511140-jonestown-massacre-photos-18-november-1978-78371d1249097631-jim-jones-jonestown-mass-murder-suicide-jonestown3.jpg http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/uploadedimages/1/148979.thumb?d=1270511122:Kaleun_Cheers:

[August]

But if we look at it from that perspective, we can lock down GT all together and call it a day.

I wish you guys had said something before I sent Neal this years forum dues. :wah:

[em2nought]

http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f237/148980d1270511140-jonestown-massacre-photos-18-november-1978-78371d1249097631-jim-jones-jonestown-mass-murder-suicide-jonestown3.jpg http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/uploadedimages/1/148979.thumb?d=1270511122:Kaleun_Cheers:


These are only the second and third photos I've ever seen of that incident. The other one was from the air and I only saw it about a month ago. Crazy!

[Onkel Neal]

freedom of speech is paramount, but as has already been said, freedom of speech has a down side in that people are free to preach hatred and convert people to radicalism under freedom of speech.

Seriously? Are you referring to this discussion group? I assume you mean in the general population... otherwise I cannot understand what you mean about converting people to radicalism...I don't see any extremists here, the ones I see are on the news with innocent blood on their hands.

Yeah, I keep forgetting if I post something someone disagrees with, it's a big problem. Pass the kool aide, please.:/\\k:

[Nippelspanner]

Yeah, I keep forgetting if I post something someone disagrees with, it's a big problem. Pass the kool aide, please.:/\\k:
Just because you're the admin of this page doesn't mean you can't have or express your opinion, I really don't see the connection some seem to make. :hmmm:
When you start to make up rules that go against those who disagree, then we'd have a problem here - but I can't imagine that at all.
So long, Subsim always allowed people to share their opinion and thoughts, even questionable ones, as long as they go along with the very sane set of rules we have here.
Edit: (...and the excellent moderation of this board!)

[Onkel Neal]

Thanks for that. Someone always calls me out. I don't post that much, but let me say something that's not appropriately PC, like maybe a sovereign nation should have the right to determine its immigration needs and I get a noose around my neck.

It's all just opinions, people, we all have them. :sunny:

[Oberon]

Huh? No, no, no I meant in general, sorry if that was worded badly. The collision between Freedom of Speech and Internal Security is a problem in all the western world at the moment.
In regards to expressing your own opinion, that would probably depend on if you were talking as Neal Stevens the owner of Subsim and its representative, or Neal Stevens the user of Subsim.
It's an awkward situation for any site owner or moderator as August has pointed out in the past. Like it or not, GT is the most active part of this site, and as such is probably where most people will look when they first come to Subsim (although I do note a lot of people stay in the Silent Hunter subforum and don't come down to GT that often), and as the site owner and main face of Subsim, what you say helps shape what Subsim is.
I suppose in one respect it's how what the president of the US does will affect how everyone in the world views Americans as a whole.

But yeah, wasn't targeting you directly, besides I know where you stand on most of these things already. :O:

[Skybird]

Q:I see my neighborhood changing and it worries me.

A: All muslims are not the problem.

Q: I dont feel safe in my neighborhood anymore.

A: How dare you say all muslims are the problem

Q: I view the the current islamic ideology as something dangerous.

A: Just replace Islamic with Jewish and you sound just like a nazi.

Q: Islamic ideology reminds me of nazisim.

A: Takes one to know one.

Q: My parents have been assaulted by immigrants.

A: All muslims are not the problem.

Q: I wish my government would stop permitting so many immigrants to enter.

A: All muslims are not the problem.

Q: I never said all muslims are the problem.

A: So what's your problem then?

:/\\!!

Hehe, I just felt like having had a deja-vu.

[Rockstar]

Just an FYI, my previous post wasnt a slam against 'all' of islam or muslims.

In our small community here we have a few who may be feeling somewhat helpless as they are claiming to witness first hand their neighborhoods take a header and are dealing directly with rising crime rates, assaults, and a waning sense of security. Granted some in the Islamic religion combined with media services and political divisivness make it even harder to deal with.

But for these few here speaking the root problem they say they are seeing, like it or not, are in fact muslim immigrants. And it seems to me when those few come out and accurately identify the source of their problem. Others who have nothing at all in common with their current situation just outright accuse them of not understanding, being or thinking like a nazi, or chastise them its not all muslims, get diagnosed by internet quacks with a phobia, and scolded for not being more tolerent.

Anyone should be able to say someone is messing up my neighborhood without the PC police getting their panties in a wad and accuse the person of having a phobia. Im fairly certain they, the actual victim, knows not everyone from the middle east are messing things up, they are not phobic, they are not nazis, they do understand.

They are however probably more than a little ticked off.

[Rockstar]

Just an FYI, my previous post wasnt a slam against 'all' of islam or muslims.

In our small community here we have a few who may be feeling somewhat helpless as they are claiming to witness first hand their neighborhoods take a header and are dealing directly with rising crime rates, assaults, and a waning sense of security. Granted some in the Islamic religion combined with media services and political divisivness make it even harder to deal with.

But for these few speaking out the root problem they say they are seeing, like it or not, are in fact muslim immigrants. And it seems to me when those few come out and accurately identify the source of their problem. Others who have nothing at all in common with their current situation just outright accuse them of not understanding, being or thinking like a nazi, or chastise them its not all muslims, get diagnosed by internet quacks with a phobia, and scolded for not being more tolerent.

Anyone should be able to say someone is messing up my neighborhood without the PC police getting their panties in a wad and accuse the person of having a phobia. Im fairly certain they, the actual victim, is not phobic, they are not nazis, they do understand, and know not everyone from the middle east is messing things up

They are however probably more than a little ticked off.

[Jimbuna]

Just because you're the admin of this page doesn't mean you can't have or express your opinion, I really don't see the connection some seem to make. :hmmm:
When you start to make up rules that go against those who disagree, then we'd have a problem here - but I can't imagine that at all.
So long, Subsim always allowed people to share their opinion and thoughts, even questionable ones, as long as they go along with the very sane set of rules we have here.
Edit: (...and the excellent moderation of this board!)

Precisely....adhere to the forum rules and everything should be hunky dory.

[August]

Thanks for that. Someone always calls me out. I don't post that much, but let me say something that's not appropriately PC, like maybe a sovereign nation should have the right to determine its immigration needs and I get a noose around my neck.

It's all just opinions, people, we all have them. :sunny:

Hey Neal, maybe you should create an anonymous account for posting on GT so you can be a jerk like the rest of us when you want to be without people rage quitting over it... :)

[STEED]

Hey Neal, maybe you should create an anonymous account for posting on GT so you can be a jerk like the rest of us when you want to be without people rage quitting over it... :)

What happens if Jim throws Neal in the slammer? :hmmm:

Better let jim know Neals secret ID. :know:

[August]

What happens if Jim throws Neal in the slammer? :hmmm:

Better let jim know Neals secret ID. :know:

I'm surprised that they don't all have secret ID's. :)

[Oberon]

Just an FYI, my previous post wasnt a slam against 'all' of islam or muslims.

In our small community here we have a few who may be feeling somewhat helpless as they are claiming to witness first hand their neighborhoods take a header and are dealing directly with rising crime rates, assaults, and a waning sense of security. Granted some in the Islamic religion combined with media services and political divisivness make it even harder to deal with.

But for these few speaking out the root problem they say they are seeing, like it or not, are in fact muslim immigrants. And it seems to me when those few come out and accurately identify the source of their problem. Others who have nothing at all in common with their current situation just outright accuse them of not understanding, being or thinking like a nazi, or chastise them its not all muslims, get diagnosed by internet quacks with a phobia, and scolded for not being more tolerent.

Anyone should be able to say someone is messing up my neighborhood without the PC police getting their panties in a wad and accuse the person of having a phobia. Im fairly certain they, the actual victim, is not phobic, they are not nazis, they do understand, and know not everyone from the middle east is messing things up

They are however probably more than a little ticked off.

Bingo.

Yes, there is a problem, but it's not Islam itself it's a whole mixture of screw-ups from top to bottom which leads to a rise in extremist attitudes both in the Muslim and non-Muslim population of an area. Which then leads to a feed back loop of distrust and eventual fear and hatred between the two communities. Ultimately things come to a head, and there is violence, but eventually things do tend to work themselves out if past events are any indication.
In the UK we had problems with the, and I'm going to break with the PC for a moment here because I can't think of a better term, Black communities back in the late 1970s and early 1980s, there was a mounting influx of people from both the East Indies and Africa, and this lead to white Britains feeling that they were being pushed out of their neighbourhoods by these foreign people, the Police clashed with Black youths fairly regularly, stopping them and searching them because they looked 'suspicious' to the police and eventually it lead to riots. Jim probably remembers a few of them, Toxteth for example.

I think when it boils down to it, a lot of the problems in the west with Islamic extremism can be traced at least partially to the fear of the unknown and the different. The media definitely plays on that with an almost 'stranger-danger' approach, highlighting the transgressions made by these new people and ignoring anything positive. This then colours peoples impressions before they've even met their first Muslim refugee, and thus when they do it's usually with a closed rather than an open mind.
Faced with this rise of negativity towards their existence, the refugees will be drawn towards their own kind, folding inwards on themselves rather than outward into the wider community, and this will be seized on by recruiters for Daesh who will highlight the transgressions made by the west against the refugees and ignore anything positive, and thus the battle-lines are drawn.

It takes two to tango as they say, and there are extremists on both sides of this story, and sure there are extremists who want to pander to every single whim of these people rather than reach something in the middle ground. People probably view me as one of those, if not worse. :haha:

Who knows, maybe we'll be able to link up with them to tackle the extremists in both our communities, that would be nice. :hmmm:

But, I suspect that as with most things in humanity, it's going to get worse before it gets better. If growing trends in both communities are anything to go by, it's not going to be a pretty couple of decades ahead. :nope:

[STEED]

I'm surprised that they don't all have secret ID's. :)

Makes you wonder. :hmmm: :haha:

[Onkel Neal]

Huh? No, no, no I meant in general, sorry if that was worded badly. The collision between Freedom of Speech and Internal Security is a problem in all the western world at the moment.
In regards to expressing your own opinion, that would probably depend on if you were talking as Neal Stevens the owner of Subsim and its representative, or Neal Stevens the user of Subsim.
It's an awkward situation for any site owner or moderator as August has pointed out in the past. Like it or not, GT is the most active part of this site, and as such is probably where most people will look when they first come to Subsim (although I do note a lot of people stay in the Silent Hunter subforum and don't come down to GT that often), and as the site owner and main face of Subsim, what you say helps shape what Subsim is.
I suppose in one respect it's how what the president of the US does will affect how everyone in the world views Americans as a whole.

But yeah, wasn't targeting you directly, besides I know where you stand on most of these things already. :O:

Whew, ok, thanks for clearing that up. :yep: I was glad to read that. Long ago, when I started my first forum, before we had issues with widespread global terrorism, I wanted to be sure this forum was open to all points of view, except for extremists. I know, how do we define "extremist". No matter how carefully we agree to a definition, there are gray areas. So far, I think we all do a pretty good job of keeping things cool.

Yeah, I know what you mean about "admin" showing up in a discussion. Some people pay no attention to it, some get cautious, some seem to go after him to show their independence. I've seen this in other forums where I am not the admin. I try not to post often in political threads, usually once every couple days or so. And I hope this is true, after I make my point, I let it go for a while.


Hey Neal, maybe you should create an anonymous account for posting on GT so you can be a jerk like the rest of us when you want to be without people rage quitting over it... :)

Haha, man, that would interesting. But no, I wouldn't do that to you guys.

What happens if Jim throws Neal in the slammer? :hmmm:

Better let jim know Neals secret ID. :know:

Why do you think I got polite real fast?:D

[STEED]

Why do you think I got polite real fast?:D

Jim hid all your beer. :hmmm:

I would do the same if Jim hid all my Pot Noodle Bombay Bay Boy.

[Jimbuna]

Jim hid all your beer. :hmmm:

I would do the same if Jim hid all my Pot Noodle Bombay Bay Boy.

I'm never usually far away :03:

http://i.imgur.com/7Q6VNUL.gif

[STEED]

I'm never usually far away :03:

http://i.imgur.com/7Q6VNUL.gif

Hi Jim can't stop have check my Pot Noodles.....:rolleyes:

[Aktungbby]

Haha, man, that would interesting. But no, I wouldn't do that to you guys.

NO NO in in Henry V the king walks anonymously among the the troops the night before Agincourt... to get the feel of the troops before the fight! the King arrives incognito upon a trio of soldiers. They are ruminating on their chances of mere survival, let alone victory in the coming fight. The King pretends to be a junior officer and joins in the discussion. Trio: Me Rockstar and Oberon: Ever a 'band of brothers who hold our manhood cheap' award U the sacred http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/redcard.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/infraction.php?do=view&p=2364056) in advance; "upon St Crisp..." er the anniversary of the Bill of Rights ratified (including the First Amendment) on this date 1792 :k_confused::har: Gadzooks! someone check the 'thirdman-syndrôme altimeter! :huh:

[Betonov]

I have come to the conclusion that I partially agree with people I tend to dissagree and partially disagree with people I tend to agree.
Therefore I am just too much in the center not to get on the nerves of both sides and should really stay out of it.

[Jimbuna]

http://i.imgur.com/IRgLePh.jpg

[Rockstar]

Islam originating and practiced in Lizzard Piss Iowa or Po'Dunk China may not be the problem. But I disagree Islam is not at the top of the list of problems in Europe or in some of our community members neighborhoods. Heck, one just has to look at the origin this flood of immigrants are coming from. The entire region has been war against the infidel and each other since the days of Muhammad and it is that culture which operates in the name of Islam being imported into Europe.

[Aktungbby]

I have come to the conclusion that I partially agree with people I tend to dissagree and partially disagree with people I tend to agree.
Therefore I am just too much in the center not to get on the nerves of both sides and should really stay out of it. You're a Roman politician at heart!:D Curio pater quadam eum oration: omnium mulierum virum et omnium virorum mulierem appellat.
(dodging the avenging kukri):O:

[STEED]

I have come to the conclusion that I partially agree with people I tend to dissagree and partially disagree with people I tend to agree.
Therefore I am just too much in the center not to get on the nerves of both sides and should really stay out of it.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lztclrVGJ31qe3irh.jpg

[Oberon]

I have come to the conclusion that I partially agree with people I tend to dissagree and partially disagree with people I tend to agree.
Therefore I am just too much in the center not to get on the nerves of both sides and should really stay out of it.

http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-there-are-known-knowns-these-are-things-we-know-that-we-know-there-are-known-unknowns-that-is-to-donald-rumsfeld-160005.jpg

Islam originating and practiced in Lizzard Piss Iowa or Po'Dunk China may not be the problem. But I disagree Islam is not at the top of the list of problems in Europe or in some of our community members neighborhoods. Heck, one just has to look at the origin this flood of immigrants are coming from. The entire region has been war against the infidel and each other since the days of Muhammad and it is that culture which operates in the name of Islam being imported into Europe.

Yeah, there is a definite clash between the culture of the Middle East and the culture of the west, I think nowhere clearer illustrates this than places like Bahrain, Dubai and Saudi Arabia where western commercialism sits right next to Islamic conservatism. But progress is being made, heck in Saudi Arabia the other day women got to vote for the first time, and for the first time women have become councillors. It's not perfect, there's tons of curbs and rules that fly in their way, but it's a small step on a long road in the right direction.

I do think though, that with the right mind-set and ignoring the best attempts of the extremists to derail it, there can be an integration between the two cultures. It will start with the second or third generation, maybe as late as the fourth, but it will start.
It's going to be a bumpy road, there is going to be people on both sides that won't want it to happen, the extremists who think that such integration is either haram or an invasion. I don't know how things work on the continent, but in the UK things tend to mash together, bits of Muslim culture will become assimilated into British culture. I think no better example of this assimilation can be found in the Chicken Tikka Masala, voted Britains favourite dish (not Fish and chips anymore, folks) and whilst it sounds Indian it was in fact created in Britain. We'll adopt parts of their language into our own, just as we've taken from Arabic, Hindu, and all other kinds of languages. An example of this is the old slang term "I'll go take a shufti" or the term for a reconnaissance aircraft a "shufti-kite" which was picked up by our soldiers during the Desert war from the Arab word Shufti which means to look.
For those living through it, it's un-nerving, we've had a lot of upset in the UK in recent years because of Eastern Europeans immigrating into the UK and supposedly 'taking all our jobs (TM)', and it's the same thing with Muslims. Ok, we've not had any Poles shoot up a restaurant, but people still react to something that's different with negativity. Most people don't take change very well...heck, I hate big changes but life is full of them, and they're not all for the worse.
I must admit during my last trek down to London I heard more Eastern European accents and language than I did Arabic or Muslim, but then our governments being an arse when it comes to taking the refugees in and working with the EU about this. That's another thing, the EU and the open immigration within it, how much scaremongering the media has brought up about that. Charlie Brooker did a good one on Newswipe towards the beginning of the year when Romania and Bulgaria became EU members:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbTvfol4LwQ

Still, fear sells papers, doesn't it? :/\\!!

Well, we'll see how it all pans out, certainly I expect more terrorist attacks in the future, not big ones like 9/11 but Paris style attacks, I think that Birmingham will probably be the next one that gets hit in the UK, it's got a sizable Muslim population to scare the public against so that'll create the sort of tension that Daesh and the EDL want to happen.
The thing is, we're at war, and the enemy doesn't have Heinkel He-111s to come across and drop bombs on us, or cruise missiles that have the range to hit us, so they attack this way. We've been lucky, very very lucky in fact if one was to compare the death tolls between them and us, well it's definitely in our favour, but nevertheless it is war and western civilians are going to die, and it could be anyone anywhere, could be any of us or any of our families. It's a horrible thought, but it's true.
But then, we're probably a lot more likely to get hit by a car, or stabbed/shot by a mugger, or have the plane we're on fall out of the sky for unknown reasons than we are to be the victims of terrorism.
Terrorism sells more papers though. :03:

[August]

I would do the same if Jim hid all my Pot Noodle Bombay Bay Boy.

Could you translate that into the common language for me?

[Oberon]

Could you translate that into the common language for me?


Our chum can't believe Sedan's fallen...I can.


Sorry, sorry, no, that's not it.

Pot Noodle Bombay Bad Boy (not Bay Boy) is a type of food in the UK, it's essentially rubber bands compressed into a clump of flavoured dehydrated ingredients. You boil up a kettle, fill up the Pot Noodle to the right height, wait until it cools and then eat it, and spend the rest of the day having it repeat on you.
I quite like the Chicken and Mushroom flavoured ones, them and the Beef and Tomato Pot Noodles were my staple lunch-time food at college, to the point that the staff used to refer to me as 'Noodle boy'.
Fills a hole though, and can be fun on topical news comedy quiz shows:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9YbmaofQ1w

[Aktungbby]

Jim hid all your beer. :hmmm:

I would do the same if Jim hid all my Pot Noodle Bombay Bay Boy.





An example of this is the old slang term "I'll go take a shufti" or the term for a reconnaissance aircraft a "shufti-kite" which was picked up by our soldiers during the Desert war from the Arab word Shufti which means to look.




Could you translate that into the common language for me? http://www.theramenrater.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/2012_1_5_625_001.jpg:D After eating such, a Gandu Shufti is in order: ie a colonoscopy:O:

[August]

Ah I see thanks. It can be confusing! :)

[nikimcbee]

http://www.theramenrater.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/2012_1_5_625_001.jpg:D After eating such, a Gandu Shufti is in order: ie a colonoscopy:O:


Needs more Steed.

[nikimcbee]

At least it wasn't Singapore Asian boy toy.:o


http://nehandaradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Mugabe-looking-glum-e1363756187541.jpg
Harumph, Steed would never leave me.

[Oberon]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/3617427/hard-to-starboard-o.gif

"Thread derailment right ahead!!"
"Hard to starboard!!"

[Schroeder]

"Hard to starboard!!"
That proofs it! You want to go to starboard so you are a right winger after all!:huh:


:O:

[Dowly]

That proofs it! You want to go to starboard so you are a right winger after all!:huh:


:O:
In the context of Titanic, "Hard to starboard!" means to the left.

See, I can terminate fun too. :smug:

[Jimbuna]

First thread derailment report just in....not surprising.

[Rockstar]

http://iruntheinternet.com/lulzdump/images/rails-train-off-wherewearegoing-backtothefuture-1338955001l.jpg

[Sailor Steve]

I guess the warning was too subtle.

[Onkel Neal]

Makes you wonder. :hmmm: :haha:

Just to be clear, for the record, neither I nor any moderator uses a 2nd account. Alias accounts are not allowed in the Radio Room, and the moderators have some effective tools to detect any eliminate any duplicate accounts.

I do have a Subsim Admin account, for admin duties, and a Conan account, for forum testing, I do not use either for routine discussion.:salute:

[Sailor Steve]

Okay, we'll try again.

[Aktungbby]

Okay, we'll try again. The all porpoise terrorism thread (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=222852): http://www.theverge.com/2013/10/25/5028608/researchers-discover-new-bomb-detecting-radar-method-inspired-by-dolphins This all makes the method appealing for finding explosive devices, http://images.nationalgeographic.com/wpf/media-live/photos/000/005/cache/harbor-porpoises_569_600x450.jpghttp://a.abcnews.go.com/images/Blotter/ht_isis_bomb_release_float_jc_151118_12x5_1600.jpg A new image has surfaced online of the bomb, hidden in a soda can, that ISIS claims was responsible for downing a Russian airliner over Egypt late last month, killing more than 200 people.
The image, included in the latest issues of an ISIS magazine, shows a soda can and what explosives experts told ABC News are a blasting cap and an electric initiator. The ISIS magazine said the image showed “the IED [improvised explosive device (http://abcnews.go.com/topics/news/iraq/improvised-explosive-device.htm)] used to bring down the Russian airliner.” https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/da/NMMP_dolphin_with_locator.jpeg/800px-NMMP_dolphin_with_locator.jpegA U.S. Navy Marine Mammal Program dolphin named KDog, wearing a locating pinger, performed mine clearance work in the Persian Gulf (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Gulf) during the Iraq War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War). :rock:

[Jimbuna]

new image has surfaced online of the bomb, hidden in a soda can, that ISIS claims was responsible for downing a Russian airliner over Egypt late last month, killing more than 200 people. [/COLOR]

Hardly 'new', this was reported a month ago in the UK press:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3323900/Is-IED-used-Russian-jet-Egypt-ISIS-magazine-releases-picture-crude-device-claim-used-bomb-killed-224-people.html

[eddie]

A large force of Daesh fighters attack 3 different Kurdish positions north of Mosul, but are repulsed with help from US, British and French warplanes!:rock:

Would have loved to see the damage those jets did when catching those clowns out in the open!:up:

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-terror/hundreds-isis-fighters-launch-17-hour-assault-kurds-iraq-n481756

[Jimbuna]

^ Aye, must be a great many now living as underground dwellers.

[Mr Quatro]

A large force of Daesh fighters attack 3 different Kurdish positions north of Mosul, but are repulsed with help from US, British and French warplanes!:rock:

Would have loved to see the damage those jets did when catching those clowns out in the open!:up:

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-terror/hundreds-isis-fighters-launch-17-hour-assault-kurds-iraq-n481756

and the Canadian forces on the ground :yep:

[Oberon]

Virginia schools shut in Islamic calligraphy row

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-35136023

Bit of a dumb move to use that particular piece of text to illustrate the point, there's plenty of Arabic words out there to use. Shame that it escalated to the point that they felt the need to close the schools though, but better safe than sorry given the climate of fear.

[Rockstar]

I have no problem if a school wants to offer Arabic language, history, arts course. Heck I would even be fine with Middle Eastern religious studies.

But the above calligraphy lesson was just stupid.

I do believe in God. But I also believe 'religion' needs to stay out of public schools.

[Oberon]

I have no problem if a school wants to offer Arabic language, history, arts course. Heck I would even be fine with Middle Eastern religious studies.

But the above calligraphy lesson was just stupid.

I do believe in God. But I also believe 'religion' needs to stay out of public schools.

Agreed, I think in all governments there should be a clear seperation of the church and state, including in education. Religion is a personal matter after all, "render unto Caesar" as the saying goes.

By all means study religion in school, but look at more than one, take a good look at the Qu'ran and the Bible as well as the Torah. That's what we did back when I was at school, and truth be told, I can only recall a handful of things from those lessons since I found them...a struggle to stay awake in most of the time. :hmmm:

[August]

Agreed, I think in all governments there should be a clear seperation of the church and state, including in education. Religion is a personal matter after all, "render unto Caesar" as the saying goes.

By all means study religion in school

If you're going to demand complete separation between church and state then I don't want the subject of religion being mentioned in class (at least K through 12) at all. This is because it can not be done without the teachers personal bias affecting the presentation one way or the other and it is not the job of the state to decide how religions are portrayed.

[mapuc]

According to a Norwegian news paper who have their information from the Norwegian NSB=FBI

About 200-250 special trained Daesh people are in Europe and ready to do terror.

Don't know how reliable these information are.

Markus

[August]

According to a Norwegian news paper who have their information from the Norwegian NSB=FBI

About 200-250 special trained Daesh people are in Europe and ready to do terror.

Don't know how reliable these information are.

Markus

Yeah it could be more or it could be less but i'd bet that there are at least some. Western borders (and I include my own countries borders) are far too porous to stop determined and well funded group from infiltrating people, weapons or anything else.

[Oberon]

If you're going to demand complete separation between church and state then I don't want the subject of religion being mentioned in class (at least K through 12) at all. This is because it can not be done without the teachers personal bias affecting the presentation one way or the other and it is not the job of the state to decide how religions are portrayed.

Or how about a representative from each religion is given a week or so with each class? That way they can all get their respective viewpoints across without governmental bias. A bit like a job market, but with religions.
Otherwise the only exposure they'll get to religions outside of their respective areas will be through the media and we all know what that's like.

[Nippelspanner]

Yeah it could be more or it could be less but i'd bet that there are at least some. Western borders (and I include my own countries borders) are far too porous to stop determined and well funded group from infiltrating people, weapons or anything else.
By now, I am only surprised nothing happened in Germany yet.
But it is only a matter of time.
Scary thought.

:-?

[Oberon]

By now, I am only surprised nothing happened in Germany yet.
But it is only a matter of time.
Scary thought.

:-?

I'm really surprised too, honestly I am. I'm also surprised we haven't had a major attack happen here in a decade.
Guess either they're not trying as hard as we're made to believe they are, or our security services are better than we think they are...or somewhere in the middle.

[August]

By now, I am only surprised nothing happened in Germany yet.
But it is only a matter of time.
Scary thought.

:-?

Munich 1972 was the last incident? That's a record to envy. You folks must be doing something right.

[Oberon]

Munich 1972 was the last incident? That's a record to envy. You folks must be doing something right.

Munich '80 looks like the last one with casualties in double figures. Although if you tote up the deaths from Red Army Faction over the years.
But yes, they must be doing something right in general, but unfortunately I fear the refugee situation will result in something happening. It's pretty inevitable that Daesh will have hid agents in the groups, so it's only a matter of time before another attack happens somewhere.
I, personally, think we've been lucky to have had such low casualties rates since 2001, especially considering that back in the aftermath of 9/11 everyone was predicting that there would be another 9/11 sized attack before the decade was out.

[Tchocky]

Oberon, it's not luck. The takeaway from those figures is that no matter where you go or who you meet, the number of people who want to murder innocent people in cold blood is vanishingly, astonishingly low. Get easily led people caughtup in a war like in Syria, fine, the blinkered horizons can easily enforce a totalitarian worldview. Not so in the West.

Last major one Munich? Makes sense, I can't think of another more recent in the same vein so let's go with that.

I guess the major point from that is that there has been an incredibly low level of Islamist terrorism.

Not nothing, but low overall.

So perhaps, perhaps, there's more heat than light being added to this debate.

The last major incidents in Western Europe- Madrid 11/M, London 7/7 and both Paris attacks this year. It's even lower in the US.

And yet.

To listen to the bigots on this forum we should have expected a lot more.

But they're never wrong. As long as you can dress up a problem in apocalyptic terms, conflate everyone of a certain faith entering your country with a murderous ideology, and reinforce the colossal mass of opinionated morons who confuse contrarianism with wisdom, who cares?

As long as there's some illusory threat to rail against, stupidity has an advantage.

[Aktungbby]

According to a Norwegian news paper who have their information from the Norwegian NSB=FBI

About 200-250 special trained Daesh people are in Europe and ready to do terror.

Don't know how reliable these information are.

Markus
BEST 2 CONSIDER IT RELIABLE: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2345182#post2345182 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2345182#post2345182)

[Schroeder]

As long as you can dress up a problem in apocalyptic terms, conflate everyone of a certain faith entering your country with a murderous ideology, and reinforce the colossal mass of opinionated morons who confuse contrarianism with wisdom, who cares?

Maybe said bigots fear more than just terror attacks? Maybe they see bad things happening in their neighborhoods outside of terror?

Here are some of my experiences:

If you know two women who have repeatedly been beaten up by their boyfriends and both of said boyfriends were Muslims then that is probably just a coincidence...

If a Turkish-German head of a security company tells you that they usually have no problems with Germans but with "foreigners" at the festivals and discotheques they protect then that's just a coincidence....

When the newspapers say "The perpetrator looked southlandish" (which is PC for Turk, Arab, Afghan) in about every second or third story about someone being robbed or mugged then that's just a coincidence as well and us bigots are just stupid.

When your boss tells you that they had a Muslim coworker who kept bullying the other workers and finally physically attacked the boss when being called out on it then that's of course just a coincidence that has no meaning. (BTW that guy was also known to beat up his wife and had some assault charges against him...coincidence of course...).

My friend's adopted son from Kenya was bullied in elementary school for being black to a degree where he didn't want to go to school anymore. Not by the Germans but the Turkish kids. The parents didn't give a hoot because black people are beneath them. He had to take his boy off of that school and send him to a private one were he is happy again now. Just coincidence of course...Who teaches his elementary school aged kids that black people are inferior?

When I was in elementary school we had one boy who kept stealing like there was no tomorrow and beating up others. He was Turkish and got thrown off that school in first grade. It takes quite something to be thrown off of a German elementary school in first grade. Just a coincidence of course...

But we are just stupid of course and there is nothing to be seen here. Move along.:shifty:

[Dowly]

I think saying that Islam has nothing to do with certain problems in countries which have received refugees in the past 6 months is naive. Of course the culture of many middle eastern countries have been sculpted by interpretations of said religion. Much like many western countries have been sculpted by reformed christianity, in other words: interpretation of said religion. Expecting that people coming from so very different culture wont cause any trouble is just silly.

I also find it funny how certain people say muslims should not be generalised by the actions of some. Yet, every critic of muslims/islam are a) extremists and b) buying the "fear" papers sell them. :88)

Anyways, that's just my opinion.

[Oberon]

I think saying that Islam has nothing to do with certain problems in countries which have received refugees in the past 6 months is naive. Of course the culture of many middle eastern countries have been sculpted by interpretations of said religion. Much like many western countries have been sculpted by reformed christianity, in other words: interpretation of said religion. Expecting that people coming from so very different culture wont cause any trouble is just silly.

I also find it funny how certain people say muslims should not be generalised by the actions of some. Yet, every critic of muslims/islam are a) extremists and b) buying the "fear" papers sell them. :88)

Anyways, that's just my opinion.

It's all interpretation though, to be honest, which is down to people rather than the religion itself. Islam and Christianity are one thing, how people interpret and react to them is another.

[Dan D]

BBC: The Taliban in Afghanistan have set up a special forces unit to fight IS:
Why Taliban special forces are fighting Islamic State (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-35123748)

" ...has more than 1,000 fighters - better equipped and trained than regular Taliban and with the sole aim of crushing IS".
:arrgh!:

[Nippelspanner]

It's all interpretation though, to be honest, which is down to people rather than the religion itself. Islam and Christianity are one thing, how people interpret and react to them is another.
I stopped giving a damn what or who interprets this book in what way and who is a "real muslim" and who isn't etc.
At this point, I just want the problem to be gone.

They debate for decades if Mein Kampf 'the super dangerous book' should ever be printed again in Germany or if, only with comments (as it happened now).

Funny, I think what needs comments is the Quran, since it seems to lead people to do terrible things. Or, you know, just put the whole crappy book under "hate speech" and be done with it.
Enough is enough.

When the muslims go crazy about it, ask them to stay and accept it, or to leave when their religion is more important than a stable society free of voodoo-bs.

/rant
(sorry)

[Oberon]

I stopped giving a F what or who interpretes this book in what way and who is a "real muslim" and who isn't etc.
At this point, I just want the problem to be gone.

They debate for decades if Mein Kampf 'the super dangerous book' should ever be printed again in Germany or if, only with comments (as it happened now).

Funny, I think what needs comments is the Quran, since it seems to lead people to do terrible things. Or, you know, just put the whole crappy book under "hate speech" and be done with it.
Enough is enough.

When the muslims go crazy about it, ask them to stay and accept it, or to leave when their religion is more important than a stable society free of voodoo-bs.

/rant
(sorry)

If only it was as simple as banning a book, but sadly not even banning Mein Kampf got rid of Nazi-ism in Germany, just pushed it underground, made people hide it until it bubbled up from time to time in ugly outbursts.
Of course, banning that book only came after a lengthy war which killed millions, and then there's the other book which is probably just as bad and that's Marx's 'Communist Manifesto', and Mao Tse-Tungs 'Little Red book'.
All have lead to the deaths of millions, and yet only Mein Kampf was banned in its home country, because Germany lost.

I don't think there is any easy solution to this problem because it is a part of human nature, you will always get people arguing over their interpretations of something, in fact, a good part of this thread could be constituted as people disagreeing over the interpretation of Muslims. Only we haven't got so far as trying to kill each other over it...yet. (:O:)

However, I don't see any advantages to furthering devisiveness in an already divided community, I don't see how the 'us vs them' mentality is going to get us anywhere other than deeper into the mire that we're already in. If we further the image that there is some sort of war between the west and the entirity of Islam, the image that the likes of Daesh want to create, then I don't see how doing Daeshs work for them is going to net us any particular reward.

But, there is a problem, and I don't know if it's a problem that's small enough for us to solve without resorting to some sort of drastic change in our mentality, which isn't something that's possible in the timeframe that we have. It's like a cycle of mistrust, and humans tend to focus on the negative aspects of it. Schroeder has had plenty of bad experiences with Turks, for example, thus he has a negative viewpoint towards them. I have not had these experiences, thus I do not have that same viewpoint. There are likely at least one positive action by a Turkish-German for each negative action that Schroeder has born witness to, but either he has not witnessed them or he does not remember them, because the human brain has a knack for focusing on negative things over positive things, I don't know why, but it's why bad news sells better than good.

Again, ultimately it comes down to the individual person and problems of generalisation. I recently had a conversation with August which drew my attention to the fact that I make the same generalisations as I have criticised others for when I generalise right wing pro-gun viewpoints, I tend to have more exposure to right wing radicals than I do to left-wing ones, and as such I view the right-wing as being more...radical, shall we say, than the left. This is of course wrong, but my online experience which has in of itself been tailored by my own existing left-wing views means that I have built up a form of bias against right-wing viewpoints while at the same time being more sympathetic to left-wing viewpoints. That's only human nature but it's something that I have to periodically step back from and force myself to try to look at both sides of the story at hand...remind myself that not all right-wing thinkers are neo-nazis or gun-loving nutjobs, just as others should remind themselves that not all left-wing thinkers are gun-hating, communist nutjobs.

It's a messy world, this is a messy situation, but we need to encourage open minds, not closed ones, and that goes for both sides, not just for us westerners, it is, after all, a two way street. If a Muslim refugee family are willing to come to Germany, work, live and worship by the rules of Germany and the Qu'ran, as much as Christians abide by the rules of Germany and the bible, then we should be able to treat them with the respect that they deserve. If they break the laws, they should go to prison, no special treatment or Sharia law, because the laws of Germany are the laws of Germany. Admittedly these laws are based upon over a thousand years of Christianity, just as the laws of Middle Eastern nations are based on a thousand years of Islam, and ultimately the future of these laws are up to the people of that nation to decide upon. If the people of Saudi Arabia want westernisation then they will achieve it or some form of it, but it will take them time, blood and sacrifice to get there, and it is really not our place to dictate our laws to them just as it is not their place to dictate their laws to us. It is as wrong for a Muslim to demand Sharia law in Germany as it is for a German to demand non-Sharia law in Saudi Arabia.
We may not like it, we may think it barbaric, but it is not ours to change.

Dammit, I keep sidetracking myself, no wonder I derail my own threads.


In short, I don't think banning anything works particularly well, as has been pointed out to me before in the gun threads, banning firearms won't stop criminals from owning firearms. Banning Mein Kampf in Germany didn't stop neo-nazis from obtaining it, and banning the Qu'ran won't stop Muslims from owning it.
A society should be able to discourage a group without resorting to state laws banning such things, people should know enough from the past to know where radicalism ends up, and if they don't then we need to teach them.

And as rants go, that wasn't so bad. :up:

[Dan D]

Just to make things clear: the book "Mein Kampf" was never forbidden in Germany.
You are e.g. allowed to sell the existing pre-1945 copies in Germany.

The copyright for the book was inherited by the German state Bavaria until now because as we know Hitler had no kids and none of his relatives ever showed up to claim the copyright.

The state Bavaria decided to release no new copies (past-1945) and sued everyone who violated the copyright. The copyright now runs out after 70 years and so Bavaria can no longer make copyright claims.

*****
Second: the whole "hate speech" thing is not known to the German legal system. That concept derives from the Anglosphere via the Internet. It does not fit here right now, as the German and American Constitutional law has a different emphasis with regard to "free speech". Of course, you could try to introduce the "hate speech" concept in Germany, but at present, you would confuse people, because no one knows wtf you are talking about.

[Schroeder]

*****
Second: the whole "hate speech" thing is not known to the German legal system. That concept derives from the Anglosphere via the Internet. It does not fit here right now, as the German and American Constitutional law has a different emphasis with regard to "free speech". Of course, you could try to introduce the "hate speech" concept in Germany, but at present, you would confuse people, because no one knows wtf you are talking about.
Volksverhetzung.:03:

[Rockstar]

Immigration is a big pain in the hind end.

Having witnessed massive immigration into a city I once lived in. I think options are few. Unless government blockades entrance change is inevitable and the force behind it unstoppable. Language, culture, demographics, crime rates, businesses, you name it, it all changes and I soon became a minority.

The thing is nobody assimilated into a unified culture. Instead within the city it now is Little Haiti, Little Cuba, Little El Salvador, Little Honduras etc etc. Each pretty much with its established boundaries, language and cultures. Instead of sitting around the campfire singing kumbya Miami has become even further racially and culturally divided. But it is a pretty cool place to visit provided you know the city and stay on the beaten path.

But I said before though. The U.S. is big we got a lot of land mass to absorb such things. Crowded little countries like Germany? Well, I think its a little tuffer to deal with.

Having been in the trenches, the best advice I can give is learn the language, put bars on your doors and windows, or move somewhere else. :D

[Dan D]

Immigration is a big pain in the hind end.

....
But I said before though. The U.S. is big we got a lot of land mass to absorb such things. Crowded little countries like Germany? Well, I think its a little tuffer to deal with.
....
:D

Germany is in need of people who are willing to immigrate to Germany, otherwhise e.g our pension scheme will collapse sooner or later, if you look at the demographics.

So we are not a cramped little country, like you seem to think. And we have the jobs.

We can't keep up our present living standards without immigrants. If you leave this years' refugees aside, more people do emigrate from Germany than immigrate. If it is said, 1 million refugees have come to Germany, we need at least 7 million people over the next years.

The decision to take in refugees from Syria is based on the idea that Syria has the best educational system in that part of the world.

[August]

Germany is in need of people who are willing to immigrate to Germany, otherwhise e.g our pension scheme will collapse sooner or later, if you look at the demographics.

Germany has added over 11 million more people to your population since WW2. How come the pension scheme depends even higher population growth than that?

[Buddahaid]

Because they get set up like pyramid schemes and the funding collapses.

[Betonov]

Because they get set up like pyramid schemes and the funding collapses.

In a way yes. But mostly no. Pyramid schemes are set to make some people rich, pensions are set to make sure we don't abandon people that built this nation before us like some animals.
European pensions were created during the industrial age and finalised after WW2.
When famillies had 5 children and people rarely lived more than 10 years after they retired, there was plenty of the working young to pay for it.
Today fammilies are smaller and the working population is getting smaller, while people retire at 65 and live to a 100.
My mother (at 30) had to pay less than 1% of her monthly wage to pay for the pensions, I already have to pay about 5% of that. And it will get worse.
The pension I pay for the last generation goes as a guarantee for my own pension, the more I'll pay in, the more I'll get back after retirement. But that pension will have to be payed by my grandchildren and they'll pay a lot.

The only solution is that every generation pays for it's own pension, I'll agree to that, but that also means one generation will have to pay for their own and the current seniors.

[Dan D]

Germany has added over 11 million more people to your population since WW2. How come the pension scheme depends even higher population growth than that?

Do you mean the estimated 11 million German refugees that were forced to leave countries in Eastern Europe because of the war Hitler Germany started there or do you mean that 11 million people immigrated to Germany in total since 1945?

Anyway, I think Beton has already given a good explanation.

The pension scheme at least here in Germany is based on an intergenerational contract, that is : the younger ones who still work pay into the old age insurance whereof the retired ones get their pensions paid. That way the young ones support the old ones.

When old people are getting older then let's say 100 years ago and at the same time the population is shrinking because the birth rate is getting lower, then fewer people have to finance the pensions of a growing number of older people.

Worst case would be that it turns out that you paid more money into the old age insurance than you get out of it once you retire yourself. Then the young ones would probably withdrawal from the intergenerational contract as the doctrine of frustration applies.

Right now, the old age insurance is getting more and more expensive.

[August]

Do you mean the estimated 11 million German refugees that were forced to leave countries in Eastern Europe because of the war Hitler Germany started there or do you mean that 11 million people immigrated to Germany in total since 1945?

No I meant how the total population of Germany was about 68 million in 1950 and now it's over 81 million.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany#/media/File:Population_of_German_territories_1800_-_2000.JPG

Anyway, I think Beton has already given a good explanation.

...

When old people are getting older then let's say 100 years ago and at the same time the population is shrinking because the birth rate is getting lower, then fewer people have to finance the pensions of a growing number of older people.

That all makes sense but like I said above your population is not shrinking, it has grown by an eighth in that time. So why is that not enough to sustain you?

[Betonov]

That all makes sense but like I said above your population is not shrinking, it has grown by an eighth in that time. So why is that not enough to sustain you?

It's the composition of the population, not the size. Young vs. old.
The refugees mean an influx of young people and children, those that work and those that will work.
European countries need to be liberal with immigration, but also very liberal with deportations.

[August]

It's the composition of the population, not the size. Young vs. old.
The refugees mean an influx of young people and children, those that work and those that will work.
European countries need to be liberal with immigration, but also very liberal with deportations.

I understand that but German population has been steadily rising since the end of WW2. Unless the newcomers are all pensioners there should be plenty of young people to take up the slack.

[Betonov]

I understand that but German population has been steadily rising since the end of WW2. Unless the newcomers are all pensioners there should be plenty of young people to take up the slack.

Brutally honestly, it's because the old people die off too slow.
When the death rate slows down along with the birth rate, the population will still grow.

[Dan D]

Yes, what Beton said.

And I am going to use a new word now that I learned today which wil be of good use when I play "scrabble" next time: "Bevölkerungsvorausberechnungen" aka "population projections".

Those population projections which are made by the state offices together with the German Federal Statistical Offices forecast that the total population by 2050 will have fallen from 81 million down to 74 million people and this affects the age structure as well, there will be less and less children and even more older people. Statistics are always controversial, of course.

And with regard to what Beton said: "European countries need also be very liberal with deportation", this needs to be pointed out in this context.

No country can afford an uncontrolled mass immigration into its social security systems like e.g. old age insurance, otherwhise they would collapse.

Because of that, immigration law is really really very strict. Countries must be able to control migration movements.

An example: if you have come to Germany claiming to be a "refugee" and if then the immigration office rejects your claim because they feel that you are an economic migrant only (for EU citizens economic migration is wanted), then this decision by the immigration office has a blocking effect for all other residence permits. This means even if you have archieved a legitimate claim for a residence permit for some other reason in the meantime, the refusal of asylum closes this door. You can not simply change your reason to stay ("One does not simply walk into Modor") and so you must go back to start (country of your origin).

[Aktungbby]

With the 'new ' word "Bevölkerungsvorausberechnungen" best never forget the 'old' word Lebensraum :timeout: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum)

[Skybird]

50 years ago, the relation in West-Germany between employees being pressed to paying protection money, and pensioners, was 6:1. 20 years ago, the relation in united Germany, was 2.7:1 2012, the same relation in all Germany was 2:1 In the past decade, the number of people in the low-wage sector has exploded. That means they are unable to save for their pension privately. The experiences wiht our largest migration groupo, Turks, since the late 50s shows that even in third generation their integration is a failed case. The examples mirgants from other places/cultures show - both in East and West germany - that unde rbest circumstances still three generatins are needed until a parity between net contribution to the social systems and net benefit could be hoped to be achieved. The Syrian masses now coming, are educated above averga e- by Arab standards. Experts for the labour m,arket and economic strtcure of German national economy who are not paid by the government say that still the overwheliming majority of these are "schwer vermiottelbar", hard to be brought into jobs with maintainable social insurrance. Fiscal calculations from sources that are not close to the government mention net costs for the madness over the next 30 years - one generation - of high two doigiot and even three digit billions. The worst case scenario beign calculatedf and reported of some weeks ago, even had it at almost 1 trillion over the coming 20 years - that includes not only direct social wellfare, but all follow-up costs from this, if calcuating by standards comaprable tpo the ways thign sunföloded with the Turkish kigration. The Syrian refugees being a longterm investment into social secuity in Germany? More likely it will go the way the youthz has been kicked ot the bottom in the Arab sphere in the past 3-6 generations. And this all still leaves out all implications when considering the political effect of the EU, and the Euro, and the disaster both mean for Europe. It also means Germany is accepting socialist France dreaming imperial dreams again by forming its old dream of a Mediterranean union. Under French dominance, of cpourse. Germany private savings are meant to pay for it. Gotta love those socialist looters. Renzi in Italy has pushed through a plan that next year all young people becoming 18 years old will ghet a free prepaid consumtion card worth 500 Euros, which they can use for buying things. For free. "The state is paying for it". The state...? Is it really the state paying this...? LOL In Finland they want to experiment with a condition-free general base income from next or seocnd next year on - more money raining down from heaven "for free" (at least as cash-free payment is still not completely enforced, Sweden has the lead in this destruction of freedom). And in Spain the election just was decided by demands to end the austwerity politics, while Greece gets moeny pumped into it for nothing, as usual. And where was it these very days that a public referendum of the population has reversed the just implemented legal equalization of marriages and "gay marriages", which was not wanted by the people, only by the so-called progressive" politicians? Was it Ireland. Or Slovenia? The writing is on the wall, more and more people in Europe turn away from the middle of the wanted "mainstream", and in opposition to to it turn "conservative". Every action has reaction and whatever force you inflict, inevitably returns. So it goes when you build a whole continent and contemporary culture on tick and debts only. What you built, cannot last, it sinks in, and collapses. But in Brussel they wonder about what is happening in political Poland currently. I do not wonder at all. We will see these political changes happening in other Eastern states, too, we already do. I do not sign into a generalization of the idea that the enemy of my enemy necessarily must be my friend, but in case of my view of conservative Poland, and the EU, it is true. I will not stand in the way of the Poles. Or the Brits, if they are clever enough to not listen to the scaremongers, and leave the EU. It'S a smart move. For the same reason I hope the Eastern nations will set up one hell of a battle over migrants. Let Germany feel the dent of it. It was our Staatsratsvorsitzende openign the gates and switching on the magnet, and it was the German public even applauding her. It is justice that we get the main force of the blow. Serves us right. What will be achieved by all this modern madness in the EU? Exactly the opposite of what one claims one wants to achieve. Exactly what one claimed one wanted to prevent - this will be the result of it all. And I have become old enough now to start feeling a grim and merciless satisfaction over this.

[Skybird]

Why is the website messing up my text formatting? :timeout:

[Oberon]

Meanwhile in Kenya:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-35151967

[Schroeder]

Meanwhile in Kenya:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-35151967
Not bad. :yep:
I'm actually surprised they didn't kill them all.:o

[eddie]

Not bad. :yep:
I'm actually surprised they didn't kill them all.:o

They'll keep trying, I'm sure!:nope:

[eddie]

6 US soldiers killed by a suicide bomber in Afghanistan.:nope: Screw that dump they call a country over there, I could care less about it anymore, bring our troops home. Let them fight their own never ending damn war!

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2015/12/22/six-us-soldiers-dead-afghan-attack

[Nippelspanner]

6 US soldiers killed by a suicide bomber in Afghanistan.:nope: Screw that dump they call a country over there, I could care less about it anymore, bring our troops home. Let them fight their own never ending damn war!

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2015/12/22/six-us-soldiers-dead-afghan-attack
Their own war?
Whatever happened to "never forget!"
and "war on terror!" etc.? :hmmm:

You guys started this.
Don't get me wrong, I hate these kind of news just like you.
But you reap what you sow. And when I today hear Americans act like "what the Hell are we even doing there!?" I can only chuckle.

Not too long ago, you all wanted this.
The whole Operation failed big time, now no one wants to be there anymore.

[eddie]

First of all, don't go around judging every American for wanting to go to war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Because I sure as hell didn't. So don't preach this crap to me. Don't like what I post, don't read it. Preach to someone else.

[August]

Not bad. :yep:
I'm actually surprised they didn't kill them all.:o


Which makes me a little suspicious of the veracity of the story. :-?

[Nippelspanner]

First of all, don't go around judging every American for wanting to go to war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Because I sure as hell didn't. So don't preach this crap to me. Don't like what I post, don't read it. Preach to someone else.
Of course not "every" American. I thought this goes without saying, but OK.
If you didn't want it, then you sure know that most Americans avidly supported the whole thing. While it may have been wrong to assume you've been one of them, there is no need to get so... defensive.

For some years now, I read that a lot. "What are we even doing there?"
And this is often coming from the same people who waved tiny US flags while cheering out loud when Bush announced to strike back etc.
Then it got ugly and all the sudden these Americans didn't want to play the game anymore.

[Oberon]

Well, for Afghanistan it's kind of understandable, I mean this was the nation habouring the man who was the leader of the deadliest terror attack to have hit American soil. At least that's what the public were told. So you can understand the support for drastic military action in Afghanistan.
Iraq, that's a little harder and a good portion of America didn't want to go into a ground war in Iraq, but for better or for worse it happened.
Of course, few of us could have predicted the quagmire that Afghanistan would become, I guess we could and should have looked back at the previous ventures into that place and stuck to an air campaign but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Still, like it or not, we can't think of Afghanistan and Iraq as 'them' any more, because we helped make that mess that they're fighting through. We have a choice with Afghanistan, really, and that's push back the Taliban by going back there on the ground, or prepare ourselves for the return of the Taliban as the government of Afghanistan and all the circumstances that this will bring. We have a slight advantage in the war against Daesh at the moment in that, of all people, Al'Qaeda are on our side, or at the very least are against Daesh...but Afghanistan is different and harder, and not helped by the 'on again, off again' attitude of Pakistan.

Either which way, this is just the beginning, the cards are still in the air and no-one can be sure where in the western Middle East things are going to fall, and the fallout from that power struggle will no doubt have implications for the Eastern Middle-East. To say that 'The times they are a-changin' ' is somewhat of an understatement. :dead:

[Oberon]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35178873

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=267968&stc=1&d=1451114356

[Schroeder]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35178873

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=267968&stc=1&d=1451114356
And in North Korea the Unicorn was found that crapped out Kim Jong Un....
Doesn't look staged at all....:/\\!!

[Catfish]

^ Oh yes, reminds me of the North korean news that Kim landed on the sun, clever as he was, he travelled there by night!

Go Erdoghan, go!

:rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2:

[Oberon]

Turkish aircraft violate Greek airspace, dogfight ensues.
http://theaviationist.com/2015/12/30/aegean-sea-dogfight/

[Oberon]

Saudia Arabia restructures economy, 'tightens belt'.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-12-28/saudis-plan-unprecedented-subsidy-cuts-to-counter-oil-plunge-iiqbmg4x

Looks like they're planning on keeping the oil prices low as part of their campaign against Iran and against Irans ally in Moscow, and they're willing to take a hit to their economy to do so.

Ballsy move, and it might just backfire on them if their economy can't handle it.

[Schroeder]

Sahra Wagenknecht, a leading member of "Die Linke" (The left) has just said that the campaign against ISIS is terror...
(sorry, German only)
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/fuer-sarah-wagenknecht-ist-syrien-einsatz-terror-13986833.html

How could they get 3.5 million votes during the last federal election?:/\\!!

[Nippelspanner]

Sarah Wagenknecht, a leading member of "Die Linke" (The left) has just said that the campaign against ISIS is terror...
(sorry, German only)
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/fuer-sarah-wagenknecht-ist-syrien-einsatz-terror-13986833.html

How could they get 3.5 million votes during the last federal election?:/\\!!
I hate to admit it, since I never liked her. But she has a point if you're honest.
"Die Luftangriffe auf syrische Zivilisten seien ein mindestens ebenso großes Verbrechen wie die Terroranschläge von Paris, sagt Sahra Wagenknecht. Ohne den Westen gäbe es den „Islamischen Staat“ gar nicht, der nun bekämpft wird."

Of course, to claim that the airstrikes "on civilians" (implying they were the original target, wtf!?) are the same kind of crime/terror as it happened in paris is just plain stupid and the known and typical 'drama way' to argue for Die Linke. However, her saying that the west created Daesh is absolutely true. But at this point, who cares? Why is this still relevant? I don't care where a problem comes from, I care about solving it. And we won't solve it if we blame each other for attacking, no wait what did she say? Ah yes: "murdering" civilians.
Yes. Sarah. Western (and Russian btw.) forces went to murder civilians......... -> :/\\!!

German political parties have become extremely ridiculous for ~10+ years now. Before that, I felt, we had choices. Now it doesn't matter who you vote, they are all FUBAR.

Turkish and Greek fighters engage in dogfight over the Aegean SeaOk. Enough. Is it just me, or did the leaders of most nations travel back to 1913!? Why is every nation besides Canada, who is very sorry to not play along, so eager to pick a fight at the moment?
What is going on here?
Stop this BS already! :-?

[Schroeder]

German political parties have become extremely ridiculous for ~10+ years now. Before that, I felt, we had choices. Now it doesn't matter who you vote, they are all FUBAR.

And that's how the Nazis can come to power (just nicely demonstrated in Poland:/\\!!).

[August]

German political parties have become extremely ridiculous for ~10+ years now. Before that, I felt, we had choices. Now it doesn't matter who you vote, they are all FUBAR.

There are similar feelings here in the States as well which is why someone like Donald Trump hasn't been laughed off the campaign trail yet.

[Nippelspanner]

There are similar feelings here in the States as well which is why someone like Donald Trump hasn't been laughed off the campaign trail yet.
:yep:

[Oberon]

And that's how the Nazis can come to power (just nicely demonstrated in Poland:/\\!!).

There are similar feelings here in the States as well which is why someone like Donald Trump hasn't been laughed off the campaign trail yet.


Sadly very true, and only exacerbated in times of crisis when people turn to the government and the government is shown to be unable to cope, so they turn to less conventional parties... :nope:

[Betonov]

When the right goes far, the turn into a (insert what you want)-phobic, pro church, anti-pleasure, semi nazi, semi-authoritan party that likes to goosestep.
But when the left goes far they turn into litteral pinko liberal hippie hippsters that think that solving the worlds problems means having a nice talk with a vegan meal, opening outside borders and wishfully thinking that the worst the immigrants can bring in will be solved by the collective love that would radiate from the population that would not need to work anymore for a living.

:/\\!!

Fer crying out loud, I'm mostly left, I hug trees, I love flowers and would kill to prevent my social medicine being taken away from me, but what poses for a left these days would make Tito spin in his grave fast enough to alter the Earths rotation

[mapuc]

Sadly very true, and only exacerbated in times of crisis when people turn to the government and the government is shown to be unable to cope, so they turn to less conventional parties... :nope:

And sometimes I do understand these people

Some years ago it was decided that our school, where I lived before, should remove pork and only serve Halal meat despite it was only ca 4-5 % pupil in these school.(can't remember the exact percentage but it was under 10 %.)

And many of our stores have removed some of the Christmas things-They have done this so the Muslims aren't getting offended.

Its not The Muslim I'm mad at, its our main-politicians and the main parties I'm mad at.

Markus

[Oberon]

Erdogan says Hitler's Germany exemplifies effective presidential system

http://news.yahoo.com/erdogan-says-hitlers-germany-exemplifies-effective-presidential-system-123619208.html?nf=1

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-FlTOIvCF9-o/UnZDqRz2z8I/AAAAAAAAOnE/V6umyJ4vNxg/s1600/u-wot-m8.gif

[STEED]

Saudi Arabia has executed the prominent Shia cleric Sheikh Nimr al-Nimr, the interior ministry said.
He was among 47 put to death after being convicted of terrorism offences, it said in a statement.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-35213244

So this is how Saudi Arabia welcomes in the new year.

[Jimbuna]

His brother, Mohammed al-Nimr, said he hoped any reaction to the execution would be peaceful.

I don't hold out much hope for that being the case.

[Oberon]

http://aplus.com/a/muslims-tweet-hilarious-responses-isis?c=2547&utm_campaign=i2984&utm_source=a86232&utm_content=inf_10_459_2&tse_id=INF_00f473e82c66438ea2a3ce069cbe5325

:up: :haha:

[Sailor Steve]

:rotfl2: :rotfl2: :rotfl2:

That is too rich. :rock:

[Betonov]

Croatians are very serious in this terror business :hmmm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1wMXN8J3y8

[Oberon]

Armed 'militia' takes over government building:
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/01/03/us/oregon-wildlife-refuge-protest/

[Jimbuna]

http://aplus.com/a/muslims-tweet-hilarious-responses-isis?c=2547&utm_campaign=i2984&utm_source=a86232&utm_content=inf_10_459_2&tse_id=INF_00f473e82c66438ea2a3ce069cbe5325

:up: :haha:

I wanna wait until April and find out what happened to Jon Snow

Priceless :D

[August]

Armed 'militia' takes over government building:
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/01/03/us/oregon-wildlife-refuge-protest/

Oh I see, a political protest in an unoccupied building, far away from any innocent civilians with no violence or any hostages taken = TERRORISM! in the Oberon Book of Reality. Gotcha! :up:

[Rockstar]

August does bring up a good point. After having read the case United States of America v. Dwight Lincoln Hammond, Jr., Steven Dwight Hammond and the current situation and actions by certain individuals and groups in Oregon. Their action does at the moment look much less than terrorism as defined by U.S. law and more like a 'protest' lead by an eccentric nut.

[Platapus]

Armed 'militia' takes over government building:
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/01/03/us/oregon-wildlife-refuge-protest/

Well, it gets a little cold in Oregon. Cut the power and water and wait them out. They are gonna get a little hungry after a while.

What we don't need is another Waco. :nope:

[Buddahaid]

Order them out, blockade, and wait, they're just begging to start a fight. The thing is as I see it, if they threaten anybody directly with their firearms it will be armed assault leading to convictions that will have their guns confiscated in the end.

Let's see how smart they are.

[Oberon]

August does bring up a good point. After having read the case United States of America v. Dwight Lincoln Hammond, Jr., Steven Dwight Hammond and the current situation and actions by certain individuals and groups in Oregon. Their action does at the moment look much less than terrorism as defined by U.S. law and more like a 'protest' lead by an eccentric nut.

The thing I would ponder is that if such a thing took place in another nation, say, somewhere in the Middle East, what would we label it? :hmmm: Also, if these people were Muslims, never mind their reasoning behind the protest, would we still be so calm?

[Sailor Steve]

The thing I would ponder is that if such a thing took place in another nation, say, somewhere in the Middle East, what would we label it? :hmmm: Also, if these people were Muslims, never mind their reasoning behind the protest, would we still be so calm?
I think that if they didn't kill or even hurt anybody, and gave their reasons, it might still only be called a protest.

The bigger danger I see is them possibly being proved right. Places like Ruby Ridge and Waco come to mind. Sometimes authorities do tend to overreact, and act more like terrorists than the ones they give that label.

[Oberon]

Well, it gets a little cold in Oregon. Cut the power and water and wait them out. They are gonna get a little hungry after a while.

What we don't need is another Waco. :nope:

I think that if they didn't kill or even hurt anybody, and gave their reasons, it might still only be called a protest.

The bigger danger I see is them possibly being proved right. Places like Ruby Ridge and Waco come to mind. Sometimes authorities do tend to overreact, and act more like terrorists than the ones they give that label.

Some probably would still just call it a protest, but you just know that the usual suspects would be very quick to call it terrorism, before details of the incident had even emerged.

But you are correct, the last thing we need here is for people to become martyrs, that would just split the US even more. :nope:

[Rockstar]

The Hammonds were brought to court, tried, and found guilty by a jury of their peers of arson. The stink arose when after only being given a slap on the hands for their punishment. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the federal law, reasoning that “given the seriousness of arson, a five-year sentence is not grossly disproportionate to the offense. Overturned the decision and awarded the maximum punishment of five years in prison.

I say good on the Ninth Circuit Court for throwing the book at the Hammonds.

Enter Bundy and his followers storming the castle to protest the decision.

Are we too quick to pronounce judgment on what a terrorist act is? Maybe so, but then ask what unfounded accusations of terrorism have been made?

[Oberon]

The Hammonds were brought to court, tried, and found guilty by a jury of their peers of arson. The stink arose when after only being given a slap on the hands for their punishment. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the federal law, reasoning that “given the seriousness of arson, a five-year sentence is not grossly disproportionate to the offense. Overturned the decision and awarded the maximum punishment of five years in prison.

I say good on the Ninth Circuit Court for throwing the book at the Hammonds.

Enter Bundy and his followers storming the castle to protest the decision.

Are we too quick to pronounce judgment on what a terrorist act is? But I have ask what accusations of terrorism made on here have so far been untrue?

To be fair, Bundy is being smart in not issuing any demands or anything as such, so it can still be classified as a protest, but really it's only a small shuffle away from an attempt to alter the decision of local government through threat of force. I mean Bundys group have broken the law, they are illegally occupying a federal building, but at this point no-one has been harmed. Hopefully it will stay that way but I cannot be certain that it will.

What amuses me is the divide in which such stories are written and reported and how local governments respond, depending on exactly who it is that is undertaking the action. It's a sign of the polarised world that we live in.

[STEED]

Islamic State militants have released a video, featuring a man and young boy speaking with British accents, purportedly showing the killing of five men who it says were spying for the UK.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35218086


Meanwhile at the BBC..

A group that says it targets online activity linked to so-called Islamic State (IS) has claimed it was behind an attack on the BBC's website.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-35213415

[Oberon]

Saudi Arabia cuts diplomatic ties with Iran, instructs Iranian diplomats to leave within 48 hours.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-35217328

[Catfish]

Saudi Arabia cuts diplomatic ties with Iran, instructs Iranian diplomats to leave within 48 hours.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-35217328

Yes, but you should put it in the right order.

Saudi-Arabai beheads 72 persons being accused of "criticizing the state".
It is all about Sunnites, against Shiites.

There is a worldwide uproar, because of this.

The Saudi-arabian embassy in Iran is being stormed, by outraged people, and not only Iranians.

And NOW, Saudi-Arabia cuts diplomatic ties, with Iran.
Which of course was planned all the time.
I am being soo tired of our good friends, the Saudi Arabians.

[Oberon]

Oh, don't worry, Iran is ready to do its own executions shortly. Like you say, it's all Sunni vs Shi'ite, and it's just another step in the Iran/Saudi Arabia cold war. Things will calm down again eventually once they've finished their tit for tat, although I doubt diplomatic relations will be restored for a while, if ever.

EDIT: Actually, I take that back, looking through Iyad El-Baghdadis twitter feed I see that the Iranian army has stated that it's time to act against Saudi Arabia. This could possibly go south, but I don't think either side particularly wants it to, it's easier for them to fight through proxies rather than directly battle...but...

[Catfish]

Right, tit for tat. Like some spoiled children, in school.
Of course that is how politics work lol.

But, who do we feed with weapons, of all kinds, since decades?
And make a lot of money by it, of course. Maybe we see an outright hot war.

I have met a lot of middle-east people during my studies. People from Israeel were the most up-to-date, and open minded. Maybe there were not so much right-wing hawks, studying here.
Then there were Iranians, also very open-minded, and openly criticizing their country's government and eager to go back and change things, some in exile, of course.

Then there were a lot of other nationalities, ended by a state that seems to consist merely of slaves, and princes.
Now guess who was the worst of all those nations, when it comes to intolerance, arrogance, and religious fanatism.

[Oberon]

Eh, politics is one thing but this has got religious divisions in it too. Some people are already comparing to the Thirty years war, and it could get just as messy. Let's face it, for the people of Syria and Yemen, it already is pretty bloody messy.

When it comes to the Saudis though, that's realpolitik in action right there. Once upon a time, don't forget, we were friends with the Iranians, but then they went to the Soviets and so we saddled up to the guys who had the biggest share in the oil market.
I think you perhaps underestimate how much oil has ruled the western world since the early 1900s, and when you consider how much oil the Saudis control and their clout in the control of the oil prices, you can bet your bottom dollar (literally) that any nation who requires large sums of oil will do their best to be their best friends.
Remember South Africa during Apartheid? They were everything the western world were supposedly against, but they were also virulently anti-communist and they controlled vast sums of precious metals and minerals, and so we were buddy-buddy with them, although it varied depending on who was in office, it was rather a schizophrenic relationship but nevertheless it was a relationship.

In this instance though the western world is definitely at a crossroads, because Saudi Arabia and Iran are fighting not just because of religious differences, although it benefits both of them to paint it that way because then you can call in more people from other countries to help you, but they're fighting because both want to be the top dog in the Middle East, and both have the allies and wherewithal to do it. So we in the west have got to decide which dog to bet on, do we side with Iran even though they're technically Russias dog and have spent the past two decades being very openly anti-western, or do we side with the Saudis who are traditionally our dog but who are possibly the underdog in this proxy conflict and who have been quietly anti-western. Both sides hate us, but both sides have oil, and we need oil, we're not out of the oil age yet and the main reason the oil prices have come down so low is because Saudi Arabia wanted them to, because it wanted to undercut any profits that Russia and Iran could make from their oil and deny them that advantage over them.
Let's face it though, Iran and Russia would benefit from a war and the jump in oil prices that would follow, but ultimately I don't know if that benefit would be worth the conflict, especially since the US will almost certainly intervene to assist Saudi Arabia.

Ultimately for our own purposes it would be best if we didn't pick any side and just stayed out, but until the US provides enough shale oil to fuel the entire western world and then some I don't think that we have that luxury.

[Rockstar]

To be fair, Bundy is being smart in not issuing any demands or anything as such, so it can still be classified as a protest, but really it's only a small shuffle away from an attempt to alter the decision of local government through threat of force. I mean Bundys group have broken the law, they are illegally occupying a federal building, but at this point no-one has been harmed. Hopefully it will stay that way but I cannot be certain that it will.

What amuses me is the divide in which such stories are written and reported and how local governments respond, depending on exactly who it is that is undertaking the action. It's a sign of the polarised world that we live in.

You're right, we live in a weird world, but there is a difference between the emotion of terror due to someones actions and the legal deffiniton of terrorism under U.S. law. To be honest after the attack in Paris I immediately thought terrorism and still do. But did the act really meet the legal diffinition of terrorism under French law? I dont know.

As far as the Bundy group goes unless they meet the criteria for terrorism as defined under U.S. law they cannot be considered or tried as one. However, if they do cross that line then I say treat him like one and launch a drone strike against them, just like we do in other countries! :yeah:

[mapuc]

Iran and Saudi Arabia has been fighting a war against each other by proxy for some years now

Some day this will turn into a direct war between these two countries and these two days event in Saudi Arabia and Iran could very well be the "start" of this war.

As Oberon said, we should stay outside this-I do fear that USA will make some kind of intervention in the strait of hormuz so the oil tankers can go in and out in this area.

Markus

[Oberon]

Well, Iran does have the strait by the balls so the USN would have to move into the strait if any threat is made...but if Iran is smart, and certainly they've been playing the game fairly smartly in recent years with the climbdown on their nuclear program and the deal with the US, then they'll leave the straits alone and promise that only defensive actions would be taken against Saudi warships in the area. Or perhaps bring in the Russian navy to patrol the area and escort oil tankers through.

[Dowly]

Overturned the decision and awarded the maximum punishment of five years in prison.
Five years is the minimum.

[Oberon]

Bahrain has cut ties with Iran, Sudan has expelled Irans ambassador and the UAE has downgraded their diplomatic team in Iran. No real surprises there, these chaps being Saudi allies.

[Skybird]

If some people now still try to convince themselves that the ME will settle down to peace if only the "Palestinian question" would be solved and Israel would be "called to reason ", then nothing will ever make these kind of people think - nothing.

If anything, what gets shown in yesterday's and today's events between SA and Iran, is this: how irrelevant the Palestinian question really is - and how grassrootingly deep in importance the Sunni-Shia conflict since centuries and centuries really is.

Syria and Jemen are done. Irak, Lebanon too.

And then there is Erdoghanistan's ambition and role.

And next there are the cluelessness of Washington, and the infantility of Brussel, Berlin, Paris, London.

Happy New Year, dear Middle East! :yeah: You suck, as always.

[MH]

Happy New Year, dear Middle East! :yeah: You suck, as always.
:Kaleun_Party::Kaleun_Party::Kaleun_Party:
As far as ME goes the rule of thumb is to wish for best and expect the worst.
Nuthouse....

[Penguin]

As far as ME goes the rule of thumb is to wish for best and expect the worst.
Nuthouse....

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Terrorist-stabs-lightly-wounds-two-people-in-Jerusalem-439344

Tomorrow we'll probably read "Israel shoots Palestinian teen!!!" in many European newspapers, as we all know it's the fault of the Zionist Apartheid light rail oppressing the poor boy.

[Oberon]

The whole region has been overdue for a major geopolitic restructuring for some time, it's been like an elastic band being pulled in both directions, stretching and stretching and stretching, sooner or later it's going to snap.
God help everyone in the region when it does.

[August]

The whole region has been overdue for a major geopolitic restructuring for some time, it's been like an elastic band being pulled in both directions, stretching and stretching and stretching, sooner or later it's going to snap.
God help everyone in the region when it does.

Yeah right about the time the Iranians build their Obamanukes... :yep:

[mapuc]

Some of the countries in the area has joined Saudi Arabia and have sent Iranian diplomats a.s.o home.

So Saudi Arabia has some supporters in that area. What About Iran, who are supporting Iran ? Syria is one of them and Some terror group in Lebanon and Palestine.

Markus

[Oberon]

Yeah right about the time the Iranians build their Obamanukes... :yep:

Well, if the Iranians get their 'Obamanukes' then Saudi Arabia will be getting some Pakistani ones on loan, so there will be a level of detente there, or both Saudi Arabia and Iran will shake hands and use them all on Israel. :hmmm:

Either which way, now is a good time to invest in Tesla technologies... :har:

[Oberon]

Some of the countries in the area has joined Saudi Arabia and have sent Iranian diplomats a.s.o home.

So Saudi Arabia has some supporters in that area. What About Iran, who are supporting Iran ? Syria is one of them and Some terror group in Lebanon and Palestine.

Markus

Russia will do, but not openly, but you can guarantee that if the US sends any form of support to Saudi Arabia, Russia will match it to Iran. Otherwise, you've pretty much summed them all up there...oh, and Venezuela, but that might as well be on the moon for all it matters. :03:

[eddie]

Yeah right about the time the Iranians build their Obamanukes... :yep:

Why not! They already have ReagonHawk missile batteries!:D

[mapuc]

Seems like the Embassy in Tehran wasn't enough. Have through Press TV got information that the Saudi Embassy in Baghdad has been hit by a rocket

Markus

[August]

Why not! They already have ReagonHawk missile batteries!:D

That's true but it must be said that short range defensive missiles are not even in the same league as nuclear weapons.

[Oberon]

That's true but it must be said that short range defensive missiles are not even in the same league as nuclear weapons.

If you put an Obamanuke on a ReaganHawk missile...what do you get? An Inter-Carter Ballistic Missile? :hmmm:

[ikalugin]

Strangely Motherland was not mentioned. Is it a nefarious plot of some kind?

[Oberon]

Strangely Motherland was not mentioned. Is it a nefarious plot of some kind?

Give it time, tovarisch, give it time.

[ikalugin]

As to the friends of Iran - Iraq de facto has Iranian shia proxy government. So Iraq is split between Iran and Saudi influences in sunni/shia areas.

In general - in the open, all out war SA has the advantage of technical superiority systems wise. Thus Iran would probably rearm before initiating the war.
As such rearmament would be hard to in the next few years, in my opinion, Iran would not initiate the war, but SA may, especially if it secures Pakistanian support (including nukes on lease).

[Catfish]

Seems the Saudi-Arabian did plan this very well, a lot of other befriended countries have cut their relations to Iran as well.

So the beheading has been sanctioned, in a way.

https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/947073_10156344091910117_853921920359364147_n.jpg? oh=a63b75406a4a2a24e5484b13c2092a09&oe=571D77A0


(stole this from Botonov, sorry but this fits so well :03: )


Also, the west has outfitted Saudi-Arabia with a lot of up-to-date military equipment. Germany alone delivers 800 Leopard 2 tanks.
Of course we know tanks are a purely defensive weapon.
(lmao)
Not the first time the west supports dictators, to get its hands on resources..


Maybe the US should not have removed Saddam. The Iraq population would be in a much better state, no civil war, no bombed-out infrastructure abd no DAESH, and some counterpart to the Saudis.

[STEED]

Blair told Gaddafi to 'step aside', phone records show

...Gaddafi said his forces did not inflict violence on ordinary Libyan people and that the protests were an attempt by armed Islamic extremists to "control the Mediterranean... and then attack Europe".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35253750

Over to Oberon. :03:

I will read more of this tomorrow.

Update - phone transcripts were interesting to a point but I am not digging any deeper into this one.

[Jimbuna]

I was wondering if these (add suitable expletive here) had reached the lowest levels of depravity, then came across this...

An Islamic State militant carried out a public "execution" of his mother because she asked him to leave the group, activists say.
Ali Saqr, 21, killed his mother, Lena al-Qasem, 45, outside the post office in Raqqa, Syria, eyewitnesses said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-35260475

[Aktungbby]

^Well when a hell-fire drone missile finally gets him, he'll only get 71 virgins in paradise!... just to prevent an incestuous jihadi screwup!:O:http://wikiislam.net/wiki/images/9/9b/72-houris.jpg (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/images/9/9b/72-houris.jpg)<http://www.theguardian.com/books/2002/jan/12/books.guardianreview5 (http://www.theguardian.com/books/2002/jan/12/books.guardianreview5)

[Schroeder]

I was wondering if these (add suitable expletive here) had reached the lowest levels of depravity, then came across this...

Looks like the SS has finally found it's equal...:-?

[Jimbuna]

Looks like the SS has finally found it's equal...:-?

And some more...:yep:

[Betonov]

At least the SS cared about their mothers.

[Skybird]

At least the SS cared about their mothers.
Both Nazi Germany and the following East-German regime knew fanatic younglings who sold their families to the authorities if they were regime-critical.

[Betonov]

I take back what I said.

[ikalugin]

It is the old conflict of loyalties problem. Is one more loyal to the country than to his fammily? Does the loyalty to one's religion come above all else? In civil wars, in wars of religion brother kills brother and sons execute their mothers (and vice versa). This is why they are so horrible in the first place.

[STEED]

A 30-year-old who pledged allegiance to Islamic State fired 11 shots at the officer in an "attempted assassination", police say.

http://news.sky.com/story/1619383/philadelphia-cop-shot-by-is-sympathiser


Attackers arrive by sea before opening fire at a tourist hotel in the Red Sea resort of Hurghada.

http://news.sky.com/story/1619406/gunmen-open-fire-at-egyptian-beach-resort

Looks like another bloody year not to look forward to. :nope:

[mapuc]

I could be wrong

What if this "fake" attack on this French police station was nothing more than a "test" and we will see a lot more of these "test" before a real combine terror attack will happen against French police stations.

Markus

[Catfish]

I was wondering if these (add suitable expletive here) had reached the lowest levels of depravity, then came across this...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-35260475

Well it's already in the bible, Jesus tells his followers to
1st give up or even kill your parents, then follow him.
2nd no one with a half pound of minced meat in his head would take that literally, at least today.

Of course, this is all in the old (unforgiving) testament .. and there is also a lot of worse stuff.
The old testament is older, than Islam.

I think the problem is, that people do not live long enough.
As long as people are young and dumb, they believe everything some unscrupulous teacher tells them, and they follow and wreak havoc.
When they have gathered some knowledge, and expericence, they are not longer seen "fit" for for military duty or senseless slaughtering (in other words they don't buy this bull anymore they are being told)
Getting old, no one listens to them anyway, especially not the young and dumb.
Then they die, and the young and dumb repeat all the mistakes.

There is no collective consciousness. Politicians, dictators and a'holes of all kinds like DAESH love to exploit that.

[Oberon]

Well it's already in the bible, Jesus tells his followers to
1st give up or even kill your parents, then follow him.
2nd no one with a half pound of minced meat in his head takes that literally, at least today.

Of course, this is all in the old (unforgiving) testament .. and a lot worse.

Hold up a mo, Jesus in the Old Testament?

[Catfish]

Sorry, it is HIMSELF in the old testament, and Jesus in the new.
Yes, he says that, even in the new one. Not in the Lutherian variant anymore though, as far as i know.

But you are evading the point :03:

[Oberon]

Sorry, it is HIMSELF in the old testament, and Jesus in the new.
Yes, he says that, even in the new one. Not in the Lutherian variant anymore though, as far as i know.

But you are evading the point :03:

I don't recall Jesus saying about killing parents, God might well have in the Old Testament, most things that stood still for long enough got smited for some reason in the Old Testament, but I see what you mean about giving up, in Luke 18:29, although IIRC it came at the end of a sermon about materialism and how hard it was for the rich to enter the kingdom of God.

Yeah, though, the short and the long of it is, like you say, most people with half a brain cell interpret the Bible in their own manner. In fact, I think everyone interprets it in their own way, the same as with any holy scripture, or indeed, any scripture at all. :doh: It's what you take away from it. :yep:

[mapuc]

Going to be a little off topic

I have since decade back been fascinated by the bible and especially The life of Jesus-officials knowings and un-officials

It has been a while since I last read part of the bible or books related to the bible and I can't remember have read things like that.

Back to topic

Markus

[vienna]

...most things that stood still for long enough got smited for some reason in the Old Testament...

Well, it was either smited or begat... :haha:



<O>

[Oberon]

Going to be a little off topic

I have since decade back been fascinated by the bible and especially The life of Jesus-officials knowings and un-officials

It has been a while since I last read part of the bible or books related to the bible and I can't remember have read things like that.

Back to topic

Markus

I think what Catfish refers to is "The Rich Young Ruler" which is Luke:18:18-30. There's also Luke 14:25-33 which is "The Cost of following Jesus".
When you consider that, at the time, Jesus was seen as a radical preacher and his 'cult' was a dangerous thing, it's probably fairly sound advice to give his disciplines because by following him, by joining his 'cult', they would stand to lose everything, including their lives. So in essence they have to decide if it's worth it to them to make that sacrifice, to put everything else aside in their devotion to God in the hope that their sacrifices will be rewarded in the after life.
I must admit, it's a bit carrot and stick for me, "If you do this, we promise you this." but who can say what Jesus said at the time compared to what has been written and altered in this book over the millennia that it's been in circulation.

[Skybird]

Ouch.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35290760

[Catfish]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35290760

:/\\!!

The only thing that astonishes me is, that Erdoghan does not says it was the Kurds, or the Armenians. After all, he and his family earn a lot of money with edit: buying (thanks S) oil from DAESH.

[Schroeder]

:/\\!!
The only thing that astonishes me is, that Erdoghan does not says it was the Kurds, or the Armenians. After all, he and his family earn a lot of money with selling oil to DAESH.
Actually they are accused of taking oil from DAESH not selling to but still.

I find it funny that most victims were Germans...and that they already know who the dude was....:hmm2:
I really have to watch out to not become one of those conspiracy theorists but with the current government in Turkey I wouldn't be surprised by anything.:shifty:

[Catfish]

"When a pig mounts the throne, it will not just become a Sultan.
But the palace becomes a pigsty."

[Schroeder]

On the other hand tourists from Germany contribute a big part of their income from tourism so I guess it's not that likely that it's an inside job.:88)

[Oberon]

Iran has two US Navy 'boats' and their crew. The Pentagon says that it hopes that Iran will return them promptly. No word on what type of vessels these are, but if it's anything like last time, probably RHIBs, I doubt the Iranian navy has the firepower to detain anything larger.

[Jimbuna]

Iran has assured the US that the sailors and two small vessels would be returned promptly,

I should think they would otherwise the potential consequences could be majorly problematic for them.

[mapuc]

I should think they would otherwise the potential consequences could be majorly problematic for them.

According to the Swedish news paper aftonbladet.se

The Iranian promised to release the boats. The latest is that Iranian soldiers has taken 10 American sailor into custody.

Markus

[ivanov.ruslan]

CatfishМ: Erdoghan does not says it was the Kurds

A little while ago I heard on the news that was not PKK

Strangely http://www.nariba.com/forum/images/smilies/017.gif

[Jimbuna]

Iran has two US Navy 'boats' and their crew. The Pentagon says that it hopes that Iran will return them promptly. No word on what type of vessels these are, but if it's anything like last time, probably RHIBs, I doubt the Iranian navy has the firepower to detain anything larger.

Apparently, at least one of the boats run aground.

[Mr Quatro]

It's 3am in the morning over there ... no time to be returning anything nautical that is.

Right before the POTUS state of the union speech in a couple of hours too :hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

It's 3am in the morning over there ... no time to be returning anything nautical that is.

Right before the POTUS state of the union speech in a couple of hours too :hmmm:

Not too sure if this is coincidental but Iran is being reported as stating the boats and crews will be repatriated tomorrow (Wednesday).

[Oberon]

Not too sure if this is coincidental but Iran is being reported as stating the boats and crews will be repatriated tomorrow (Wednesday).

Maybe Trump phoned them up and asked them to get themselves stuck in Iranian waters so it could overshadow the State of the Union address. :O:

I guess it's just routine matters, relations between the US and Iran are vastly improved over what they were under the Bush administration. On that note, I recall seeing somewhere on social media the other day the word that Iran had sent the last of its enhanced uranium off to Russia, so hopefully that means the end of the Iranian bomb program, but they'll still have the infrastructure in place to slap one together in a hurry if they need to.

[Oberon]

Meanwhile it appears that Al'Qaeda in the Arabic Peninsula are filming a remake of the Italian Job:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYhswpBUoAA25aa.jpg:large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYhswwrUoAE_fFA.jpg:large

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4C9HuLu4B0

[mapuc]

Breaking news in Denmark

A 15-year-old girl from Sandby near Holbaek was Wednesday arrested and charged with possession of explosives, the testing of explosives and to encourage terrorist acts

The arrested is a ethnic Danish girl who have converted to Islam.

Its a sad story. It is not the first time I hear such story about a person who after have converted to another religion, mostly Islam, has turned into a terrorist.

Markus

[Nippelspanner]

^
http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/d1/d1e6bb44e6415efe4091add654151dad998c4a21f500604929 962f6157359035.jpg

[Rockstar]

Islam is peaceful. But there can be no peace until all have submitted to Islam.

Have a nice day.

[Onkel Neal]

Some all purpose terror happening in Jakarta (http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/14/asia/jakarta-gunfire-explosions/).

Attackers struck in the middle of the day Thursday, in the middle of a busy central Jakarta commercial hub -- killing at least two, wounding 19 and raising alarms about terrorism once more, this time in the world's most populous Muslim country.

There was no immediate claim of responsibility for the rattle of shots and explosions from at least five attackers. But police believe that they were linked to ISIS, and the Islamic State-affiliated Aamaq News Agency reported people from that terror group were behind the bloodshed.

The Jakarta carnage, in an area frequented by foreigners, came 6,000 miles from and two days after ISIS boasted about a suicide bombing in the heart of Istanbul. That attack in Sultanahmet Square, between the popular Hagia Sophia and Blue Mosque tourist attractions, killed 10 German visitors.

[Skybird]

It was the time of the preacher in the year of 01
Now the lesson is over and the killin's begun

[Onkel Neal]

Gunmen Storm Hotel and Seize Hostages in Burkina Faso (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/16/world/africa/gunmen-attack-hotel-in-burkina-fasos-capital.html?_r=0)

I don't even know where that is. :88)

OUAGADOUGOU, Burkina Faso

Oh come on, that's just trolling.

[nikimcbee]

Islam is peaceful. But there can be no peace until all have submitted to Islam.

Have a nice day.

You mean religion of piece(s)?

If you could just submit....
that would be great.
http://assets.creativity-online.com/images/work/full/a/t/l/Atlassian_HipChatTeamMeetingEMBARGO15.jpg

[eddie]

Daesh has attacked the Syrian city of Deir al-Zor, killing a large amount of civilians (executed 300 of them that is) and kidnapping dozens more, if not hundreds of them. They want to control the part of Syria that has the largest oil deposits. Mean while, with the help of Russian air strikes, Syrian troops continue to push to surround Aleppo.

Slaughter innocent civilians, man these are some real tough guys!:nope:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/17/dozens-killed-by-islamic-state-in-massacre-in-syrian-city-of-deir-ezzor?CMP=soc_567

[Oberon]

Yeah, I was listening on the World Service last night to the story of an Iraqi woman who is a refugee in Turkey who was captured by Daesh. The Yazedi village she lived in was captured with very little warning by Daesh forces, they were taken to a local school and said that anyone who wanted to convert to Islam had a day to do so, and then they seperated the men and women and the children, the men were lead away and killed, even those who decided to 'convert' since they don't consider that a Yazedi who has converted is worthy of anything except death, the children were taken away to be converted and then the women were divided into the elderly, the younger and the married. The elderly were killed and then the rest were given to various soldiers to either keep or to sell on. Apparently each woman is photographed and a telephone number is written underneath the picture, if you want the woman you ring up the soldier who is her keeper and negotiate a price. She tried to escape while with her Daesh keeper, but she was captured and gang-raped by him and his guards, eventually she was sold to another man and managed to escape when he went out to find some jewellery for her to wear since he was looking to sell her on, she ran through the streets of Mosul until she found a Muslim family who took her in and managed to arrange to get her out of Mosul and to friendly lines, she then fled and sought asylum in Germany.

Despicable behaviour by a group of creatures whose behaviour is lower than low, one can only hope that the bombs that we drop mortally wound Daesh soldiers and that they die in pain, or perhaps better, lose limbs and become useless to the cause and thus have to live the rest of their lives knowing that they are useless to their brothers and just a burden. That's if they're not just shot, I guess. :hmmm:

[Skybird]

Determination, and not accepting compromise, are sufficient.

[eddie]

3 American contractors kidnapped in Baghdad, guess we know how this is going to turn out.:nope:

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/three-americans-reportedly-kidnapped-baghdad-n498351?cid=sm_fb

[Jimbuna]

3 American contractors kidnapped in Baghdad, guess we know how this is going to turn out.:nope:

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/three-americans-reportedly-kidnapped-baghdad-n498351?cid=sm_fb

Hopefully all will end well but not confident :nope:

[Oberon]

Why are civilians still being put in harms way there? If there's construction work to be done then why isn't the US Engineering Corps doing it? Or even the REMEs?
The more western civilians we put into Iraq or Syria, the more likely it is that they're going to be used against us as propaganda tools by Daesh.

Of course, it works both ways, a dead western civilian increases support for action against Daesh within a populace who is indifferent to the local civilian casualties caused by Daesh...so a cynical person might say that that is the reason why civilian contractors are still in Iraq...well, that and money.

Either which way, my thoughts go out to the families of these men and I hope that if they are to die, then it is as quick as possible, and I also hope that the media refrain from blasting it all over the front pages where the families will see it...but I might as well hope for peace in the Middle East while I'm hoping for that. :nope:

[Jimbuna]

^ Companies greed for financial gain and the urge of individuals to work for inflated wages they can't get in their home countries

[HunterICX]

Former Dutch soldier may face charges for killing IS jihadis

A former Dutch commando who has been fighting alongside an armed Kurdish group against IS in Syria has been arrested in the Netherlands. Jitse A was picked up in Arnhem and is being investigated for his role in killing Islamic State jihadis while fighting with YPG forces, the public prosecution department said in a statement.http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2016/01/83438-2/

I really like this part:
Dutch nationals who take up arms against IS fall under Dutch criminal law and can be prosecuted if they commit crimes. No decision has yet been taken on whether he should face criminal charges.If he where to be charged it adds up nicely to the fact when Dutch Jihadists return they're to be pampered and treated with care as they probably where misunderstood and couldn't help the crimes they commited against Humanity.

Personally I would buy him a couple of beers to thank him.

[Tchocky]

Ive been following this case a little bit. The tricky aspect is that almost all of the testimony against him is hearsay and coincidental stuff.

I don't for a second believe he's innocent, but we gotta prove stuff first.

[HunterICX]

I don't for a second believe he's innocent.

I think we can agree that between all combatants involved in the war against IS you can drop the word ''Innocence''

EDIT:

The tricky aspect is that almost all of the testimony against him is hearsay and coincidental stuff.

Where would I be able to find these, would love to get to know more about it then what the Dutch Newspapers give me.

[eddie]

Why are civilians still being put in harms way there? If there's construction work to be done then why isn't the US Engineering Corps doing it? Or even the REMEs?
The more western civilians we put into Iraq or Syria, the more likely it is that they're going to be used against us as propaganda tools by Daesh.

Of course, it works both ways, a dead western civilian increases support for action against Daesh within a populace who is indifferent to the local civilian casualties caused by Daesh...so a cynical person might say that that is the reason why civilian contractors are still in Iraq...well, that and money.

Either which way, my thoughts go out to the families of these men and I hope that if they are to die, then it is as quick as possible, and I also hope that the media refrain from blasting it all over the front pages where the families will see it...but I might as well hope for peace in the Middle East while I'm hoping for that. :nope:

We don't want the Army Corps of Engineers over there for just this very reason, they would be nothing but targets. Because we would have ti get the Iraqi Govt approval for that, and they wouldn't do that without the ok from Tehran. Plus that jackass Muqtada "The fat pig" al Sadr says if American troops of any kind come to Iraq, his group will hunt them down. We should have put a bullet in his brain a long time ago.

So that leaves this type of work to contractors who want to make good money. These 3 were working at the Baghdad airport, and they are not even sure Daesh has them. Could be any one of the many groups over there. 26 hunters from Qatar were kidnapped a while ago in southern Iraq, no word on where they are or who has them. I don't know what you would hunt in Iraq, besides terrorist! Or why would you go hunting in Iraq in the first place!:88)

[eddie]

Former Dutch soldier may face charges for killing IS jihadis

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2016/01/83438-2/

I really like this part:
If he where to be charged it adds up nicely to the fact when Dutch Jihadists return they're to be pampered and treated with care as they probably where misunderstood and couldn't help the crimes they commited against Humanity.

Personally I would buy him a couple of beers to thank him.

There are a few Americans fighting with the Kurds too, sure won't get into trouble over here for that! Hell, I'd give them a medal plus buy the beer!:D

[eddie]

This just in from Fox news Oberon-
A spokesman for Baghdad's Joint Operations Command told The Washington Post that the three citizens were Iraqis who had acquired U.S. citizenship. A Baghdad police official said they worked as contractors at Baghdad International Airport, but did not say which country employed them.

The police official and a building resident both told the Post that the apartment the Americans were taken from is well-known in the area as a brothel and is subject to frequent raids by Shiite militias, including the Iran-backed Asa’ib ah al-Haqq.


Stupid is as stupid does!

[Oberon]

This just in from Fox news Oberon-
A spokesman for Baghdad's Joint Operations Command told The Washington Post that the three citizens were Iraqis who had acquired U.S. citizenship. A Baghdad police official said they worked as contractors at Baghdad International Airport, but did not say which country employed them.

The police official and a building resident both told the Post that the apartment the Americans were taken from is well-known in the area as a brothel and is subject to frequent raids by Shiite militias, including the Iran-backed Asa’ib ah al-Haqq.


Stupid is as stupid does!

Ah, I can see why they would be considered top notch for the job, having the local knowledge but yeah...I don't think you could pay me enough to work in Baghdad, at least not without Western army bodyguards backing me up. But yes, their sexual urges have really put them in the crap this time, poor sods...but like you say, bad move on their behalf and they really should have known better having already left Iraq once. :dead:

[Oberon]

https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/10153464748691939/

[mapuc]

As the person I'm. I would, if I had the money like Daesh has, I would create an organization like Red Cross to help people in need.

Now this is about thinking or try to think like a terrorist leader if I was such a type

I would create three types of terrorist

The low type terrorist-These will get about 3-6 month training in handling explosive and to use a gun/machine gun-These terrorist will be used as suicide terrorist.

The Medium terrorist-These will get about a year or so of training-I will use these to attack the infrastructure in other countries

The Expert-These will get a 4-5 yeas of training-Like The American Navy Seal or the English SAS- These I will use against other countries high rank officer and politicians.

As stated above I would rather create an organization like Red Cross, then Create things that harm people.

Markus

[eddie]

https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/10153464748691939/

I loved the way they get into the face of those radicals!:D

[Stealhead]

There are a few Americans fighting with the Kurds too, sure won't get into trouble over here for that! Hell, I'd give them a medal plus buy the beer!:D

Yes they will it is illegal for any US citizen to fight in a foreign armed force. This is why Western Europeans and North Americans that do go do not identify themselves by name. Nor do they state where they where when they return home.

[eddie]

Yes they will it is illegal for any US citizen to fight in a foreign armed force. This is why Western Europeans and North Americans that do go do not identify themselves by name. Nor do they state where they where when they return home.

Are you sure about that? As long as they don't fight for an enemy army, little if anything will be done to them.

"Unlike Americans joining Islamic State, who can face terrorism charges (http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-authorities-struggle-to-find-a-pattern-among-aspiring-isis-members-1425586022), citizens like them risk little trouble back home. U.S. officials say volunteering to fight overseas, while discouraged, isn’t illegal if an American isn’t joining an enemy or group the U.S. labels terrorist."

And they gave their names and the FBI knows they are there. 2 former Iraq war veterans!

http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-american-veterans-who-fight-isis-1441362601