The all purpose terrorism thread featuring plenty of allah akbar

[Schroeder]

Some all purpose terrorists are at it in Somalia again...
http://www.dw.com/en/twin-suicide-attacks-rock-mogadishu-beach/a-18997142

[eddie]

Daesh has a new copy of their new magazine out, calling for attacks against all Shia. Guess they hate everyone,lol Its ok as far as they are concerned to kill other Muslims like the Shia. Had to laugh at this pic from the articles page!:D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v138/Thony/1453322863352_zpsojesuhbo.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Thony/media/1453322863352_zpsojesuhbo.jpg.html)

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/01/21/new-issue-isis-magazine-dabiq-calls-for-war-on-muslims.html

[August]

Yes they will it is illegal for any US citizen to fight in a foreign armed force. This is why Western Europeans and North Americans that do go do not identify themselves by name. Nor do they state where they where when they return home.

Actually it's only illegal in certain circumstances

Federal statutes long in force prohibit certain aspects of foreign military service originating within the United States. The current laws are set forth in Section 958-960 of Title 18 of the United States Code. In Wiborg v. U.S. , 163 U.S. 632 (1896), the Supreme Court endorsed a lower court ruling that it was not a crime under U.S. law for an individual to go abroad for the purpose of enlisting in a foreign army; however, when someone has been recruited or hired in the United States, a violation may have occurred. The prosecution of persons who have violated 18 U.S.C. 958-960 is the responsibility of the Department of Justice. Although a person's enlistment in the armed forces of a foreign country may not constitute a violation of U.S. law, it could subject him or her to the provisions of Section 349(a)(3) of the INA [8 U.S.C. 1481(a)(3)] which provides for loss of U.S. nationality if a U.S national voluntarily and with the intention of relinquishing U.S. nationality enters or serves in the armed forces of a foreign state engaged in hostilities against the United States or serves in the armed forces of any foreign country as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer.
Military service in foreign countries, however, usually does not cause loss of nationality since an intention to relinquish nationality normally is lacking. In adjudicating loss of nationality cases, the Department has established an administrative presumption that a person serving in the armed forces of a foreign state not engaged in hostilities against the United States does not have the intention to relinquish nationality. On the other hand, voluntary service in the armed forces of a state engaged in hostilities against the United States could be viewed as indicative of an intention to relinquish U.S. nationality.


travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal-considerations/us-citizenship-laws-policies/citizenship-and-dual-nationality/citizenship-and-foreign-military-service.html

[Rockstar]

I think someone here already voiced this concern. Looking forward to February's vote to see how it all pans out.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/01/22/could-an-entire-french-generation-grow-up-in-a-state-of-emergency/

Could an Entire French Generation Grow Up in a State of Emergency?

In November, after Islamic State terrorists slaughtered 130 people in Paris, French President Francois Hollande wasted no time declaring a national state of emergency. It allowed security forces to raid homes without warrants, impose curfews, and prevent large gatherings.

A week later, with the country still on edge, French lawmakers agreed to extend the state of emergency for three months, and reformed the law to allow police to search computers found in raids and easily place suspects under house arrest.

But Prime Minister Manuel Valls warned Friday that the mandate could last until the Islamic State is defeated. And that could be for years to come.

In an interview with the BBC at the Davos World Economic Forum, Valls said the war against the Islamic State could last for an entire generation, and that emergency measures could remain in place “as long as is necessary” and “until we can get rid of Daesh” — using an acronym for the extremist group.

“As long as the threat is there we must use all means at our disposal,” he said.

The current measures will expire in February, and French lawmakers will need to decide in coming days whether or not they will again extend the state of emergency — the first since the Algerian War. The ability to launch raids without warrants has paved the way for Hollande to take a tougher stance on terrorism after the country’s right-wing political parties accused the socialist leader of being weak on national security issues.

One reform that has been floated would strip dual citizens convicted of terrorism of their French citizenship.

Although many French citizens have favored the state of emergency, United Nations experts have urged Paris to repeal the measures unless they are going to be used specifically to target terrorists. Their concern was sparked by the fact environmental activists have also been put under house arrest, although they do not appear to be a threat to national security.

“While exceptional measures may be required under exceptional circumstances, this does not relieve the authorities from demonstrating that these are applied solely for the purposes for which they were prescribed, and are directly related to the specific objective that inspired them,” the group of experts wrote to the French government this week.

And last week, Council of Europe’s human rights commissioner Nils Muiznieks warned that if extended for too long, the emergency laws could threaten democracy and encourage ethnic profiling.

“There is a risk that these measures could sap the system of democratic control,” he said.

[Oberon]

http://workplacepsychology.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/jfk-crisis-danger-and-opportunity.png

[Skybird]

Where is the opportunity in this mess.

Originator of the quote by the way is not Kennedy, Richard Wilhelm decades before him, translator of the first authentic portation of the I Ching into a Western language - which happened to be not English, but German. Just btw, since I appreciate the I Ging's value as a tool of self-reflection.

[Oberon]

A State of Emergency is always a good opportunity to pass laws to restrict the freedom of people under the auspices of fighting against terrorism. Look at the PATRIOT Act.
I had a horrid feeling in the aftermath of Paris that something like this might happen.

[eddie]

Oberon, its kind of funny to say ISIS backwards, got a definite sissy sound to it,lol

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Are you sure about that? As long as they don't fight for an enemy army, little if anything will be done to them.

"Unlike Americans joining Islamic State, who can face terrorism charges (http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-authorities-struggle-to-find-a-pattern-among-aspiring-isis-members-1425586022), citizens like them risk little trouble back home. U.S. officials say volunteering to fight overseas, while discouraged, isn’t illegal if an American isn’t joining an enemy or group the U.S. labels terrorist."

And they gave their names and the FBI knows they are there. 2 former Iraq war veterans!

http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-american-veterans-who-fight-isis-1441362601Those articles require subscription. Could you give us a summary of their content?

[eddie]

The FBI basically says there are not more then 100 Americans fighting with the Kurds against Daesh. The two men they talk about in this article, one is an Army Vet (40 years old) who is still fighting there. Before he left to go over there, he was interviewed by the FBI as to what his intent was. Upon learning what he wanted to do, they let him go over there. He faces no criminal charges when he returns.

The other guy was a 29 year old Marine. He had served in Iraq before, and wanted to go join the fight and to see where some of his friends had fought and died at. He also was interviewed by the FBI before he left, and was allowed to go. He was there fighting for a short time, then returned home. He faces no criminal charges.

As the article states, they frown on Americans fighting in a foreign army, but as long as it isn't an enemy of the US, they don't try to punish them for it or stop them from doing so. Unless they commit a criminal act during their service with this foreign army, not much they can do I guess.

[Onkel Neal]

You never let a serious crisis go to waste. And what I mean by that it's an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before.

Rahm Emanuel



..........

[Aktungbby]

but as long as it isn't an enemy of the US, they don't try to punish them for it or stop them from doing so. Unless they commit a criminal act during their service with this foreign army, not much they can do I guess. You can bet they are debriefed info-wise against future necessity.:salute:

[eddie]

Oh I am sure they get debriefed when they get back. Both mentioned the unreliability of some of the weapons they were given by the Kurds. The AK's worked ok, but the grenades were another matter. The 40 year old vet said you never knew if they would go off! not a good thing when the fighting is close quarters.

I'm sure there are guns for hire fighting there too, you know the old Soldiers of Fortune types.

[Dan D]

Libya's recognized parliament rejects U.N.-backed unity government (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-libya-security-politics-idUSKCN0V31Q0)

Reuters:

"Since 2014, Libya has had two competing parliaments and governments, one based in Tripoli and the other in the east. Both are backed by loose alliances of armed groups and former rebels who helped topple Muammar Gaddafi in 2011.

Western powers hope a unity government will deliver stability and be able to tackle a growing threat from Islamic State militants.

Libya's internationally recognized parliament voted on Monday to reject a unity government proposed under a United Nations-backed plan to resolve the country's political crisis and armed conflict.

Though not a surprise, the rejection was a setback in efforts to heal Libya's deep divides. Of 104 members who attended the session in the eastern city of Tobruk, 89 voted against an administration nominated last week, demanding a new proposal within 10 days."

[August]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/12143466/German-head-of-security-services-Isil-fighters-are-disguising-themselves-as-refugees.html

The Islamic State is infiltrating terrorists into Europe “disguised as refugees ”, the head of Germany’s domestic security service has said. The warning comes after an Algerian man was arrested at a refugee shelter on Thursday on suspicion of planning a terror attack in Berlin.

“We have seen repeatedly that terrorists are being smuggled in disguised or camouflaged as refugees,” Hans-Georg Maassen, the head of the Office for the Protection of the Constitution (BfV), said.

[Oberon]

They'd have to have the tactical acumen of a walnut to not smuggle forces into Europe using the best camouflage the world has created for them. That's just the risk that you run.
To be honest, Daesh are quite easily tearing Europe apart and they don't even need to fire a shot, just keep pushing refugees out of Syria and wait for Europe to melt down and start conforming to the narrative that Daesh are selling, that the west is at war with Islam.

We lost this war the day we started fighting it. :yep:

[Jimbuna]

They'd have to have the tactical acumen of a walnut to not smuggle forces into Europe using the best camouflage the world has created for them. That's just the risk that you run.
To be honest, Daesh are quite easily tearing Europe apart and they don't even need to fire a shot, just keep pushing refugees out of Syria and wait for Europe to melt down and start conforming to the narrative that Daesh are selling, that the west is at war with Islam.

We lost this war the day we started fighting it. :yep:

I'd say the Russian bombing of civilians are the cause of the most refugees fleeing Syria atm.

[ikalugin]

Not the ground war? With arty bombardments? Or the prolonged humanitarian crisis?

When you think about it - we don't drop all that much ordanance from those aircraft. Much more is fired by arty every day (including ours), it is just that air aspect of the war is over rated for various reasons. And then you get political/religious/ethnic cleansing with related deaths, general insecurity and fear of prolonged civil war.

[HunterICX]

I'd say the Russian bombing of civilians are the cause of the most refugees fleeing Syria atm.

Eh....no, they themselves pretty much state they're getting bombed by Russia, attacked by Assad's Army from one side, attacked by Syrian Rebels from the other and on yet another side they have ISIS.

So wherever they go or are in Syria it ain't a pretty situation.

[Nippelspanner]

I'd say the Russian bombing of civilians are the cause of the most refugees fleeing Syria atm.
No. Just absolutely no.

I am no fan of Putin, that guy is simply sick in the head, but the eternal "Russians blow everything up" is just bogus.
Yes, they dropped some bombs on the wrong targets and of course that would not happen to anyone else, ever....... so it is - as always - Russia's fault.
Syrians were fleeing the region long before Russia started dropping bombs.

If East/West relationships deteriorate any further, the West can dig out their old anti-communism posters again. They worked back then, they will work today, which is sad and funny at the same time.
I love Russia. And Russians. Mostly awesome people, they just tick a little different but once you know how to take them, all is fine, so the current "Russia evil!" attitude of the west pisses me off completely, more so because many people simply buy it without question.

I wouldn't know what to do if things would escalate.
Defend my country, or attack someone I don't want to attack because I know it is all BS?

Politicians, man... :nope:

[Skybird]

Nippelspanner,

it seems that in past weeks indeed the lion's share of civilian casualties comes from intensified Russian attacks. The Russian bombers kick in the doors for the Syrian ground troops. Assad currently is on the offensive. Moscow wants to collect some favourable facts on the ground before any possible negotiations get underway - possibly.

Russia is good in blowing stuff up without discrimination. See Chechnya. The grim truth is: brute force works.

One can be thankful that they have no major ground forces there, implementing Russian artillery doctrine.

[Oberon]

Hunter is right though, right now the RuAF is conducting a heavy bombing campaign against Aleppo as a prelude to a ground assault to retake the city. As a result of that some 35,000 have turned up on the Turkish border looking to flee into Turkey.

You can't really blame them, this is what they're fleeing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipcnB4hxR08

But yeah, the RuAF is definitely helping the Syrian ground forces push further into Aleppo, their campaign is working...but it is also causing an increase in refugees, but so does any major offensive.

[ikalugin]

I think that arty is a more important factor here. When you think about 1 bomb = 5 152mm shells. We drop less than 200 I would say every day, meaning that equivalent in 152mm shells is 1000. With ROF of 5/min this could be fired by a divizion of 20 in 10min.

[Betonov]

Meanwhile in Germany

http://i.imgur.com/iHOOUNI.jpg

[Jimbuna]

Anyone watching the BBC News the other night see the presentation on the matter of RuAF bombing civilian targets in Aleppo then returning within thirty minutes and bombing those carrying out rescue work?

Russia becoming involved in the area for the sake of gaining a naval base and Putin looking for revenge against sanctions imposed by the west has simply undermined what was a just effort to rid the Syrian people of a tyrant.

I'd have thought a united east/west front ridding the area of Daesh and then a united committment by said parties to seek a political end to the conflict would have been more sensible, surely?

What is happening currently will never bring about a peaceful solution to all the parties involved.

[Skybird]

Who said peace is in Russia's interest?

Merkel has been the one factor in Europe that Putin sometimes listened to, sometimes not. Her political weight also often stood in his way in the past months, the past year.

By waging war in Syria, he triggers more migrants fleeing - to Europe. Which is destabilising not only the EU, but Merkel as well.

What happens in Syria is: Putin bombing Merkel out of his way. After Merkel, only weak or far-left leaning politicians are left to follow her. This will losen fiscal discipline in Europe, destabilising it even more. In Italy, Greece, France, Spain, Portugal, everywhere the demands are growing to grow spending sand increase debts. Which likely will happen with germany not having much influence in the EU anymore. Germany is massively isolated over the handling of the mass migration.

Russia's interests are going far beyond Syria here. The main target the Russians are firing at - is the EU. Divide et impera. Also to deepen the rifts between EU and Turkey.

Its a strategy of being longtermed destructive to crack the EU. Not nice.. Not civilised. But functional. The Russians run Realpolitik in Syria. The West dreams and babbles. The Arabs get stunned by their own inner contradictions.

You see, it is in Russia's interest to increaser and intensify the mass migration to Europe as much as it can. The more migraiton, the greater the pressure and the damage to the EU, the weaker and more isolated Germany is in the EU.

[ikalugin]

Then BBC makes fine propaganda for RuASF, as it overstates our sortie generation (which is around 90/day for the air base and that is on the good days). With that sortie generation, an average of 2 FAB250 equivalent weapons used per sortie (which appears to be the case) our air campaighn effort is the same as 10min fire prep by an 152mm arty divizion. The divizion we have in Syria (amongst other things).

But was it really such an effort?

It is, if the "non islamist opposition" could negotiate as a single body without pre requisites for the negotiations. This was not possible untill recently.

[Rockstar]

Anyone watching the BBC News the other night see the presentation on the matter of RuAF bombing civilian targets in Aleppo then returning within thirty minutes and bombing those carrying out rescue work?

Russia becoming involved in the area for the sake of gaining a naval base and Putin looking for revenge against sanctions imposed by the west has simply undermined what was a just effort to rid the Syrian people of a tyrant.

I'd have thought a united east/west front ridding the area of Daesh and then a united committment by said parties to seek a political end to the conflict would have been more sensible, surely?

What is happening currently will never bring about a peaceful solution to all the parties involved.

I have a hard time believing Tartus is anywhere near a main objective of the Russians. Sure it would nice too say to the world, " hey we have a navy base in Syria", but its no Subic Bay. Its one short pier in a small shallow harbor, you might fit a supply ship and a small escort there.

[ikalugin]

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/de_la_mitrio/3989359/42828/42828_original.png
If we assume that each object is destroyed by 4 FAB250s equivalents (12 FAB250 equivalents per sortie then), then the comparison indeed does change, leading to the air effort closer to 40min or arty fire per day rather than 10.

[Skybird]

Syria also is a showcase for Russia'S grown military capabilties, some of which have been improved ramatically since the Goergia war. Seen that way, not so much what they do but how they do it, is a message to NATO, and a warning:

For exmaple it was said the Russians wouold be unable to send bigger expedionary forces outside the reahc of a comprehensive rail network. But most logistics needed to form up the Russian presenc ein Syria, was via aiurlift and sea transport - and at a surprisingly fast pace.

Russia uses a quite economic mix of smart ammunitions and dumb iron bombs. Where the Americna forces some time ago rang the alarm bell once again that their stockpile of smart ammo was rapidly depleting, the Russians do only one in five shots with smart ammo - but this with great effect. They have them, they are capable in using them, and they know what resource management means.

Maybe the most alarming news: the Russian airforce demonstrates its ability to closely live-coordinate CAS with Syrian and Iranian ground forces. A capability that just last autumn NATO assumed they would not even have to a bigger level with even their own forces.

Submarine launched cruise missiles were used to smash relatively small unimportant targets in the past. These targets were such that they did not really justify an expensive strike with cruise missiles. But they were fired from small fast attack boats, and submarines, telling NATO: we have them, we can strike your countries with them, and you have a hard time to find these small platforms from which they get fired.

A British commentator some weeks ago also noticed what Putin may reveal he does not have: capable sea-based air power. The Russian aircraft carrier is not there, although described to be ideal for operating offshore Syria. Maybe the thing is not operating as well as they want to make the world believe?! Or the fleet is not able to protect it efficiently? The Med still is NATO's pond.

The Russians' role in syria cannot be understood correctly if just focussing the view on syria alone. What they really do, is splitting Europe, and at the same time communicating to NATO by non-verbal communication, so to speak. And what they say, is a famous Romulan quote: "We are back."

The pace their military is capable to operate with, is stunning. The sortie rate of their air forces has dramatically increased.

Just days ago a NATO general has warned that in case of a Russian attack they would overrun most of the former Warsaw Pact states without NATO being able to do anything about it. Some American Strykers more or less will not make a difference.

[Schroeder]

For exmaple it was said the Russians wouold be unable to send bigger expedionary forces outside the reahc of a comprehensive rail network. But most logistics needed to form up the Russian presenc ein Syria, was via aiurlift and sea transport - and at a surprisingly fast pace.

That believe surprises me considering that we had to rent THEIR Antonovs to airlift our stuff to Afghanistan....:hmm2:

[Skybird]

That believe surprises me considering that we had to rent THEIR Antonovs to airlift our stuff to Afghanistan....:hmm2:
You can be small in airlifting, and still in peaceful days can rent a small share of that for a two-day operation. That we rent their Antonovs, means little, I think. For Russia'S capabilities at least. It says a ,lot about Germany's deficits, however. We should not want to play on playgrounds we cannot reach and manouver in by our own means. That is stupid doing.

Relocating brigade and divisions sized forces and supplying them across Russia - that is where the challenge lies. They probably still dpeend on their rail network heavily. But that they would be able to relocated such an effective expeditionary force via airlift and sea transport with so short time of early warning and with such a speed, caught many analysts in Brussels HQ on the wrong foot, I read.

[ikalugin]

The problem with Kuznetsov is that the carrier presense in Syria is not cost effective - it is much better to base aircraft on conventional airfields.

So when Kuznetsov does sortie to Med it would be a big training exercise.

[U505995]

Anyone watching the BBC News the other night see the presentation on the matter of RuAF bombing civilian targets in Aleppo then returning within thirty minutes and bombing those carrying out rescue work?

Russia becoming involved in the area for the sake of gaining a naval base and Putin looking for revenge against sanctions imposed by the west has simply undermined what was a just effort to rid the Syrian people of a tyrant.

I'd have thought a united east/west front ridding the area of Daesh and then a united committment by said parties to seek a political end to the conflict would have been more sensible, surely?

What is happening currently will never bring about a peaceful solution to all the parties involved.
Oh boy, *grabs popcorn*

[Nippelspanner]

Anyone watching the BBC News the other night see the presentation on the matter of RuAF bombing civilian targets in Aleppo then returning within thirty minutes and bombing those carrying out rescue work?
Yeah, that's called a "double tap" - at least in the US drone operations in the middle east and being practiced like that since the very beginning. :03:

[August]

Yeah, that's called a "double tap" - at least in the US drone operations in the middle east and being practiced like that since the very beginning. :03:

I've read that the Germans originally perfected the tactic during the Blitz. That must be the beginning you're talking about.

[Nippelspanner]

I've read that the Germans originally perfected the tactic during the Blitz. That must be the beginning you're talking about.
While you of course only post this because you can not accept any sort of criticism towards your holy, untouchable country - especially not from some foreigner - the point is not who practiced it first, but rather a hint towards something I mentioned earlier.
The west concentrates on "Russia = bad", while it, for over a decade now, ignores the crimes *someone* commits in the middle east.
I am not sure how what the Luftwaffe over 70 years ago did still matters in that context?
Oh right it doesn't - it is just about blame-shifting as usual. :yeah:

What I said isn't wrong - is it?
Bombing those who come to help is a disgusting tactic and surely kills more non-combatants than legit military targets, that is the point and if your only excuse is "but the Nazis!" then I can't help you anyways.

Long story short: Can't blame Russia when 'we' do the same thing.

[Skybird]

While you of course only post this because you can not accept any sort of criticism towards your holy, untouchable country - especially not from some foreigner - the point is not who practiced it first, but rather a hint towards something I mentioned earlier.
The west concentrates on "Russia = bad", while it, for over a decade now, ignores the crimes *someone* commits in the middle east.
I am not sure how what the Luftwaffe over 70 years ago did still matters in that context?
Oh right it doesn't - it is just about blame-shifting as usual. :yeah:

What I said isn't wrong - is it?
Bombing those who come to help is a disgusting tactic and surely kills more non-combatants than legit military targets, that is the point and if your only excuse is "but the Nazis!" then I can't help you anyways.

Long story short: Can't blame Russia when 'we' do the same thing.

It's war. Be enraged or perplexed or whatever about the fact that there is war, if you think you must - but not about the ways and the tools of war once there is a war. War is war. And it absolutely is nothing different.

War is not the continuing of peace with other means. Judging it by moral standards of peace time, makes no sense. It does not ennoble war, magically, war remaisn to be dirty, and mean, always. There are no "just" wars or "holy" wars - only wars that are needed and wars that are wanted. The first must be fought, the latter must be avoided at all cost. The Russians have a mission, a cause, an objective, so they think. And obviously they do not accept getting distracted from their objective, may there be civilians in the way, may there be diplomats protesting. They do not care. Their objective still is not achieved, and so they keep on bombing until they have achieved it, or got defeated.

Thats why I think they have a better chance to win this their latest military adventure, while the West has turned all its major military wins of the past 40 years into strategic defeats, needlessly: Vietnam, Gulf 2, Afghanistan, Gulf 3 - militarily undefeated, but turned into strategic defeats nevertheless. We excel in loosing wars - despite claimed military superiority.

[Nippelspanner]

It's war. Be enraged or perplexed or whatever about the fact that there is war, if you think you must - but not about the ways and the tools of war once there is a war. War is war. And it absolutely is nothing different.

War is not the continuing of peace with other means. Judging it by moral standards of peace time, makes no sense. It does not ennoble war, magically, war remaisn to be dirty, and mean, always. There are no "just" wars or "holy" wars - only wars that are needed and wars that are wanted. The first must be fought, the latter must be avoided at all cost. The Russians have a mission, a cause, an objective, so they think. And obviously they do not accept getting distracted from their objective, may there be civilians in the way, may there be diplomats protesting. They do not care. Their objective still is not achieved, and so they keep on bombing until they have achieved it, or got defeated.

Thats why I think they have a better chance to win this their latest military adventure, while the West has turned all its major military wins of the past 40 years into strategic defeats, needlessly: Vietnam, Gulf 2, Afghanistan, Gulf 3 - militarily undefeated, but turned into strategic defeats nevertheless. We excel in loosing wars - despite claimed military superiority.
Yeah...right...

I was talking exclusively about the deliberate killing of civilians, but go ahead, don't let my "peace time morales(?)" disturb your convenient point of view.

[August]

While you of course only post this because you can not accept any sort of criticism towards your holy, untouchable country - especially not from some foreigner - the point is not who practiced it first, but rather a hint towards something I mentioned earlier.

No, you just don't like taking a little of the medicine you love to dish out. Maybe you should just stick to complaining about those brown skinned refugees you and your pals hate so much.

[Rockstar]

What does it mean to win? Most here swallowed the pill when told western powers intervened to bring "freedom and democracy" to the middle east. If we base our idea of a win on that. IF that was the real objective then yes, we can say with all certainty the west lost. But I dont think its about winning the hearts and minds or setting anyone free from tyranny.

Western powers win when we prevent any nation over there from becoming the victor. We win when we bring stalemate and keep the region destabilized. We win when we have them focused and fighting each other instead of the West. IMO the West understands the middle east very well and plays them like a fiddle.

I think whats going on over there now doesn't have squat to do with bringing freedom and democracey to Syria or with moderate and radical Islam and terrorists, these are just isolated storms in a tea cup. IMO the war being fought is between Russia and NATO battling over spheres of influence. Russia is interested in keeping Assad in power so they get a piece of the action and a say in regional policy. The west is interested in restricting Russia's influence in the region, by attempting to oust Assad under the guise of freedom and democracy.

[Nippelspanner]

No, you just don't like taking a little of the medicine you love to dish out. Maybe you should just stick to complaining about those brown skinned refugees you and your pals hate so much.
August, I tried to make this clear to you at least 3 times by now, but I will gladly try to make you understand once more.
Unlike you, I am no nationalist. Get that into your head.

So when you try to "get me" by mentioning Nazi Germany which I had nothing to do with it leaves me cold.
There is no connection at all and I am not stupid enough to feel personally attacked when someone legitimately criticizes the political actions of the country I live in - heck I criticize Germany's politics heavily myself, so what's your point actually?
"You attacked my country, now I attack yours! Because that matters and is totally an argument!"

And I really wonder, why don't you agree with me when I say that deliberately murdering civilians (or more precisely: Unidentified persons) is wrong?
Aren't you one of these 'good Christians'?
Shouldn't you be highly appalled by these kind of actions?
Oh and why exactly did you mention the refugees predominant skin color?
Is that a factor to you, I wonder? :hmm2:

Also, I would prefer if you not make wrong claims about me since I don't think defamation goes well with Subsims rules. Please, quote me in the future, will you?

To clear that up, since you struggle so often to understand so little, I don't hate refugees, which you must have read more than once by now, but as usual: You only hear what you want to hear, and ignore the rest.
I even said I'd let a Syrian family live in my house if circumstances would allow it (my house is half empty at the moment and before I sell it, this won't change), but yeah, go ahead, imply how I hate these brown skinned refugees... :roll:

[Oberon]

Oh boy, *grabs popcorn*

Got any of that popcorn to spare? :hmmm:

[Skybird]

Yeah...right...

I was talking exclusively about the deliberate killing of civilians, but go ahead, don't let my "peace time morales(?)" disturb your convenient point of view.

I am against deliberate killing of civilians, too, beleive it or not, may it be war or not. However, my argument is that war has its own logic dictated by military demands and objectives. Being cruel for the sake of just wanting to be cruel, imo is not needed, detemrination is sufficient: but that means to not let your objective out of your sights and stop firing because civilians are around - all you acheive by that is the enemy noticing your hesitation and startzing to abuse civilians as human shields behind which to hide. He fires at you, but you not at him. Guess who wins.

Assads regime seems to terrorise the population by besieging one city since months and causing a huge starvation desaster there, I do not know what kind of military advantage he sees in that - but I also do not know what kind of enemies of his are inside the city. The bombing campaign by Russia in Alleppo also looks quite ruthless, but as I said earlier: from Putin'S POV the objective is to assist Assad - but also to create more pressure by causing more refugees moving to Turkey, and Europe. Like them or not - but these are his objectives. If you are a realist, you must recognise that.

I do not justify this or that, nor do I take sides. If you want to criticise me of anything, than for my effort to maintain a sober, unsentimental look - from all side's perspectives. That I think I could "decypher" and understand Russia's objectives and calculations, does not automatically mean I sympathise with them.

[Skybird]

What does it mean to win? Most here swallowed the pill when told western powers intervened to bring "freedom and democracy" to the middle east. If we base our idea of a win on that. IF that was the real objective then yes, we can say with all certainty the west lost. But I dont think its about winning the hearts and minds or setting anyone free from tyranny.

Western powers win when we prevent any nation over there from becoming the victor. We win when we bring stalemate and keep the region destabilized. We win when we have them focused and fighting each other instead of the West. IMO the West understands the middle east very well and plays them like a fiddle.

I think whats going on over there now doesn't have squat to do with bringing freedom and democracey to Syria. Nothing to do with moderate or radical Islam and terrorists, those are just isolated storms in a tea cup. IMO the war being fought is between Russia and NATO battling over spheres of influence. Russia is interested in keeping Assad in power somthey get a piece of the action and a say in regional policy. The west is interested in restricting Russia's influence in the region, which means ousting Assad under the guise of freedom and democracy.

While I too do not buy that freedom&democracy strawman claim, I think you underestimate the importance of the Shia-Sunni conflict for this war. At minimum it ius a relgious proxy war already.

And then ther eis Turkey, which is noit automatically to be counted as a Western ally, it is not, but by now stands for its own ambitions for regional dominance (last but not least over both Iran and Saudi Arabia). The Russians have picked their sides, against Tuzrkey, for Assad, witzh the Shia Persians (Iran). The West flits about (="irrlichtert herum") in search of a clue.

[Nippelspanner]

Skybird,
I didn't mean to imply on what side you are, I don't care in the end anyways, that is up to you.
I have a very simple point of view about all of this:
The deliberate killing of unidentified targets must not be a valid doctrine under any circumstances.

I'd expect this from North Korea, maybe, but not from a country (or rather an alliance of countries) that prides itself with lies about freedom, equality, democracy and humanity, quickly condemning the actions of other countries, while being responsible for an incredible - maybe even unimaginable - amount of destruction, pain and suffering for decades.

That's really it. *shrugs*

[Skybird]

Skybird,
I didn't mean to imply on what side you are, I don't care in the end anyways, that is up to you.
I have a very simple point of view about all of this:
The deliberate killing of unidentified targets must not be a valid doctrine under any circumstances.

I'd expect this from North Korea, maybe, but not from a country (or rather an alliance of countries) that prides itself with lies about freedom, equality, democracy and humanity, quickly condemning the actions of other countries, while being responsible for an incredible - maybe even unimaginable - amount of destruction, pain and suffering for decades.

That's really it. *shrugs*
I perfectly understood your view from beginning on. Obviosuly, you must admit that, yo7ur view collides with the events of reality, and I tried to explain why this is so. There is a n incompatability between the mode the world in Syria is working in currently - war -, and the set of morals by which you want war to be run.

War is war. And it is absolut ely nothign else than that: war. You have to expect barbaric acts happening in war. these are why you call it war, and not a picnic on the meadow. There is no and never was a way to run war with surgical purity and civilizational cream on top. Its the absence of these. Get dirty when playing this game of war. Else do not play at all. Just do not try to play this game nice. It does not work - never has, never will.

That's all.

You're German, you understand this translation of a Japanese poem:

Was zum Überfluß Worte machen,
was soll das?
Es steht die Sache
auf diesem Schwerte,
auf dieser Klinge allein.

Either this, or that - no in-between, that means.

[Skybird]

Skybird,
I didn't mean to imply on what side you are, I don't care in the end anyways, that is up to you.
I have a very simple point of view about all of this:
The deliberate killing of unidentified targets must not be a valid doctrine under any circumstances.

I'd expect this from North Korea, maybe, but not from a country (or rather an alliance of countries) that prides itself with lies about freedom, equality, democracy and humanity, quickly condemning the actions of other countries, while being responsible for an incredible - maybe even unimaginable - amount of destruction, pain and suffering for decades.

That's really it. *shrugs*
I perfectly understood your view from beginning on. Obviosuly, you must admit that, yo7ur view collides with the events of reality, and I tried to explain why this is so. There is a n incompatability between the mode the world in Syria is working in currently - war -, and the set of morals by which you want war to be run.

War is war. And it is absolut ely nothign else than that: war. You have to expect barbaric acts happening in war. these are why you call it war, and not a picnic on the meadow. There is no and never was a way to run war with surgical purity and civilizational cream on top. Its the absence of these. Get dirty when playing this game of war. Else do not play at all. Just do not try to play this game nice. It does not work - never has, never will.

That's all.

[Nippelspanner]

No.

[Skybird]

No.

Doch.

http://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/luftschlaege-in-syrien-russische-luftangriffe-die-weltgemeinschaft-steht-putins-treiben-ohnmaechtig-gegenueber_id_5272565.html

http://www.straussenfarm-riederfelde.de/mediapool/128/1285102/resources/24478409.jpg
Doesn't help.

http://boerse.ard.de/nomapping/meldungen/drei-affen100%7E_pd-1366806613084_v-z-a-par-a-small-float-s.jpg
Doesn't help either.

[Nippelspanner]

Doch.

http://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/luftschlaege-in-syrien-russische-luftangriffe-die-weltgemeinschaft-steht-putins-treiben-ohnmaechtig-gegenueber_id_5272565.html


Doesn't help.


Doesn't help either.
Nothing justifies the deliberate killing of civilians. End of story.

[Skybird]

Still its getting done. Justification yes or no.

Walk into the desert, find a lonely place all for yourself, raise your face to the heaven above and shout "I wish this world would be a better place."

Don't take the to be expected result personal. It was forseeable.

[Nippelspanner]

Meine Fresse!

I never said IT DOESN'T HAPPEN, I said it is WRONG.
That is all I said! I said it is wrong. End of story. Nothing more to it!
Seriously, it isn't rocket science what I said, is it now?
So save your funny pictures for a better opportunity, for now they suit yourself more than me because you go on and on and on about something no one asked for, including dramatic lectures about how gruesome war is.
Really now, Captain Obvious!?

Kopf -> Tisch. :stare:

[ikalugin]

As clarification, we do not kill civilians deliberately, we are just less tight about collateral losses. Another thing - one should not equate attacks on civilian infrastructure to murdering civilians deliberately, as such infrastructure can be seen as a valid target, i.e. every single strategic bombing campaign, including Kosovo.

[Skybird]

Infrastructure per se is a valid target in war, like all installations of dual usability that can be of use for civilian society and military as well. Bridges. Powerhouses. Powergrid. Civlian houses and institutions with ammo stores, weapon sites, troops concentrations. Heck, even farmland and crop before harvesting. In Vietnam they defoliated whole forests in a bid to deny the VC the forest's camouflage.

[mapuc]

I'm with Nippelspanner in this case-You shall do anything you can as possible to prevent hitting/bombing civilians

I do also agree somehow with ikalugin that a target, such as a civilian house is a legit target if there are terrorist hiding there.

It hurt my pacifistic heart to see civilian get killed mostly because the terrorist is going totally against any known ROE regarding civilians it also hurt my heart to see our bombers has no other choice to drop bombs on civilians target-if they do drop them, to get a terrorist.

I hope they will "jump forward" with those micro weapons.

Markus

[Oberon]

At least we've come a way from area bombing as a doctrine, I think in the case of Aleppo as ikalugin said, a lot of the damage is likely from months of artillery bombardment.
Certainly though, every effort should be made to avoid civilian casualties, especially in a war like this because every civilian casualty creates the possibility of radicalising the relatives of the deceased. :dead:
Unfortunately for us though, the enemy knows our ROE and has no qualms in using civilians as shields.

Catch-22. :/\\!!

[ikalugin]

I think that the Tu22M3 carpet bombing runs occurred over ISIS held territories only.

[Rockstar]

:huh: What tangled webs we weave.

I was reading a news artcle which claimed the Syrian government awarded a contract to to a company called Stroytransgaz to build a gas facility in Tuweinan back in 2007. In 2013 rebels fighting against the Assad regime took control of the facility and noted Russian engineers had fled the site before they had arrived. In 2014 the facility fell into the hands of the most evil and henious empire of ne'er-do-wells called daesh.

Fast foward too today. Stroytransgaz through a subcontractor Hesco is, with the Islamic States permission of course, working to complete the facility. Apparently there are deals like this everywhere in Syria

Aron Lund, editor of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace’s website Syria in Crisis, said that similar gas and oil arrangements exist all over Syria. “You have them between the IS and the regime, but also between IS and rival Sunni Arab rebels, between the Kurds and the regime, Kurds and rebels, the rebels and the regime, and so on,” he said. “You have lots of informal trade connections that emerge among armed groups, smugglers, or private business to fill the gaps between the various sides as the country falls apart, while national institutions, infrastructure, and much of the economy will necessarily remain shared.”

Keep them fractured, destabilized and fighting each other. While the West (which in my book includes Russia) reaps the rewards.

[vienna]

https://desultoryheroics.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/6a01053596fb28970c01348365f7e1970c-450wi.jpg

http://francistapon.com/images/travels/europe/TheWarIsGoodForEconomyMyth4-war-is-money.jpg



<O>

[Oberon]

Rule of Acquisition number 34 (not to be mistaken with Rule 34 which is something else entirely...)

[Skybird]

While the West (which in my book includes Russia)

Britian is part of Europe - but not really. Or better, it is not by mentality and geograohy, but somehow, it sometimes is. Its - complicated. :D So it is with Russia. In case of doubt I see Russia as a cultural sphere of its own. Russia is Russia. Left-leaning by claim, and religiously orthodox, it may be close to Greece. And by size, Russia is Russia anyway, neither Europe, nor Asia.

Maybe the Russians do not even know themselves what they are and to what cultural side they belong more. Ask somebody in St. Petersburg, and somebody in Kamchatka, and expect to get two very different answers, maybe. :)

The differences in mentality and culture coming from Protestantism, Catholicism and Anglicanic churches on the one side, and Orthodoxy on the other side, also are nothing marginal.

[Skybird]

I think that the Tu22M3 carpet bombing runs occurred over ISIS held territories only.
And I think non IS-opposition to Assad has been bombed and shelled and attacked much more than IS itself over the past months. Like Turkey did, too: the are more busy with fighting the Kurds than the IS. And accuse the US for not joining them in fighting the Kurds.

Its almost as chaotic as in one of those old screwball comedies from the 40s and 50s.

[ikalugin]

We don't carpet bomb the non ISIS people. Unless you call 2-4 FAB250s carpet bombing these days.

[mapuc]

If I only could remember every word I hear and remember every sequence I see on different news program about Syria.

I do remember some words between the host of a news program and the man in the field(Damaskus-Syria)

Man in the field. mention three Arabic countries that will deploy soldiers in Syria to fight Daesh

Then the host said something about West giving air support to these and if we are very unlucky we could face a air battle over Syria between Russia and West/NATO

Markus

[Catfish]

It's just human rationalizing at work

".. man stands with a puzzled expression on his face and a handful of things scavenged on the way from gutters, interglacial littorals, sacked settlements and broken relationships, the .. human has no use for thinking except in the service of acquisition. He stands at every gate with one hand held out and the other behind his back, inventing reasons why he should be let in. From the first bunch of bananas, his every sluggish fit or dull fleabite of mental activity has prompted more, more; and his time has been spent for thousands of years in the construction and sophistication of systems of ideas that will enable him to excuse, rationalize, and moralize the grasping hand. .."

His dreams, those priceless comic visions he has of himself as a being with concerns beyond the material, are no more than furtive cannibals stumbling round in an uncomfortable murk of emotion, trying to eat each other. Politics, religion, ideology — desperate, edgy attempts to shift the onus of responsibility for his own actions: abdications. His hands have the largest neural representation in the somesthetic cortex, his head the smallest; but he's always trying to hide the one behind the other.”

Queer, but well said.

[August]

It's just human rationalizing at work

".. man stands with a puzzled expression on his face and a handful of things scavenged on the way from gutters, interglacial littorals, sacked settlements and broken relationships, the .. human has no use for thinking except in the service of acquisition. He stands at every gate with one hand held out and the other behind his back, inventing reasons why he should be let in. From the first bunch of bananas, his every sluggish fit or dull fleabite of mental activity has prompted more, more; and his time has been spent for thousands of years in the construction and sophistication of systems of ideas that will enable him to excuse, rationalize, and moralize the grasping hand. .."

His dreams, those priceless comic visions he has of himself as a being with concerns beyond the material, are no more than furtive cannibals stumbling round in an uncomfortable murk of emotion, trying to eat each other. Politics, religion, ideology — desperate, edgy attempts to shift the onus of responsibility for his own actions: abdications. His hands have the largest neural representation in the somesthetic cortex, his head the smallest; but he's always trying to hide the one behind the other.”

Queer, but well said.

You Germans just love depressing cynicism. :) Here's another lovely Harrison gem:

“Happiness and beauty are the worst things you can have in a life, because you never forget them. They go on and on ambushing you, presumably until you die.”

:roll:

[mapuc]

I tried to see it from the Russian side

They are being accused of mostly bombing the moderate terrorist who's on "our side" and not so much Daesh

It may be several groups that is fighting Assad, in all there is one enemy.
OK all those terrorist groups may have different agenda to what they will do with Syria, if they should win the war and they may be fighting Assad & Co-still in all there's one enemy fighting Assad-That's what I think Russia is thinking. They don't see 5, 7 or 10 different terror groups.

Right now the fighting is around Aleppo and it is around that area these moderate terrorist is and they are close to Assad and his supporting forces, so it would be natural to bomb in these areas.

Markus

[Dmitry Markov]

We have a popular joke here: a journalist is asking Russian ASF (ВКС) executive - does ASF see any difference between common terrorists and moderate terrorists in Syria? ASF guy answers that yes, we do see the difference and for engaging common terrorists we use common bombs and for engaging moderate terrorists we use moderate bombs.

[Dowly]

OK all those terrorist groups may have different agenda to what they will do with Syria[..]
Indeed, this is important to keep in mind. If it was just one united rebel group against Assad, I'd give them my support, but half a dozen? That won't go well, if Assad is overthrown, just more fighting between these groups to decide who gets to be the next big boss. Add in ISIS and we're looking at several years of more conflict.

[Schroeder]

Indeed, this is important to keep in mind. If it was just one united rebel group against Assad, I'd give them my support, but half a dozen? That won't go well, if Assad is overthrown, just more fighting between these groups to decide who gets to be the next big boss. Add in ISIS and we're looking at several years of more conflict.
That's why I'm for Assad to win by now. All other alternatives are far worse for Syria.:dead:

[Nippelspanner]

That's why I'm for Assad to win by now. All other alternatives are far worse for Syria.:dead:
I just figured the same... which is kinda frightening considering what Assad is.

[Skybird]

^, ^^ Same here.

Longer time ago, before the Russians started to heavily relocate forces and intervene, there was a time when I considered Assad to be already defeated. Big mistake of mine.

However, he is done anyway, maybe, for Russia has no specific interest in his person and government, only in its own interests in Syria, and denying the realisation of other sides' interests to them. They will stick to Assad, if they must. If they can do without him, he is game over.

Unfortunately Iran is part of the Russian-Syrian cooperation.

In the end, the ME with military dictators like until some years ago, was more stable, peaceful and predictable, than it is now. It was a mess back then. Now it is hell.

[eddie]

And its going to get worse Skybird, Turkey will send in ground troops to fight Daesh, and will allow Saudi Arabia to use its airbases for air strikes. Got a feeling there will be fighting between the Turks and the Kurds, have no idea how Saudi airstrikes will work at all!?!

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/turkey-pledges-to-send-ground-forces-to-fight-islamic-state-in-syria/ar-BBpsDKc

[eddie]

Now Russia says-

"Russia meanwhile warned against any ground intervention in Syria by countries in the US-led coalition with Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev saying it would unleash another war."

So does that mean it is warning Turkey to stay out of it, and will Turkey now violate Iraqs borders and go in without being asked by the Iraqi Govt?

Going to get hotter in the ME, that's for sure!
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-sends-brand-new-cruise-missile-ship-to-syria-report/ar-BBpslRU

[mapuc]

Here's hypothetical question

Can The politicians etc here in the west, live with Syria as a Sharia state, if the people by free election choose this way of (forgot the word, sorry)

Maybe it will never happen, that the Syrian people get the chance to make such a choice , I guess our way of democracy will be forced upon them.

Markus

[Onkel Neal]

^, ^^ Same here.

Longer time ago, before the Russians started to heavily relocate forces and intervene, there was a time when I considered Assad to be already defeated. Big mistake of mine.



It was pretty close for a while. When Putin told Obama to stop after the chemical weapon violation, and Obama did stop, it decided the issue in favor of Assad.

[Oberon]

A MSF hospital in Syria has been hit by an air strike. No one knows who did it at the moment, the Turks have (naturally) blamed the Russians, as has a local monitoring group and there was an intense amount of flash traffic on the Russian military strategic networks about two hours ago, although I guess that could be related to the exercises going on at the Baltic borders, although why they'd be using the strategic channels to talk about a paratrooper based exercise is beyond me.

Well, I guess it's US 1, Russia 1 so far for hitting MSF hospitals. :doh:

[Dowly]

:haha:
https://www.riemurasia.net/video/Putin-lapsii-menemaan/179032

[Dan D]

Statement of the International Syria Support Group:

"Meeting in Munich on February 11 & 12, 2016, as the International Syria Support Group (ISSG), the Arab League, China, Egypt, the EU, France, Germany, Iran, Iraq, Italy, Jordan, Lebanon, the Organization of Islamic Cooperation, Oman, Qatar, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, the United Kingdom, the United Nations, and the United States decided that humanitarian access will commence this week to besieged areas, and an ISSG task force will within one week elaborate modalities for a nationwide cessation of hostilities. (…)
In order to accelerate the urgent delivery of humanitarian aid, sustained delivery of assistance shall begin this week by air to Deir Ez Zour and simultaneously to Fouah, Kafrayah, the besieged areas of Rural Damascus, Madaya, Mouadhimiyeh, and Kafr Batna by land, and continue as long as humanitarian needs persist. Humanitarian access to these most urgent areas will be a first step toward full, sustained, and unimpeded access throughout the country. (…)
The ISSG members agreed that a nationwide cessation of hostilities must be urgently implemented, and should apply to any party currently engaged in military or paramilitary hostilities against any other parties other than Daesh, Jabhat al-Nusra, or other groups designated as terrorist organizations by the United Nations Security Council. The ISSG members commit to exercise influence for an immediate and significant reduction in violence leading to the nationwide cessation of hostilities".

http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/DE/Infoservice/Presse/Meldungen/2016/160211_Communique%20Syrienkonferenz.html?nn=342580

[ikalugin]

Can be good.

If turks with saudis do not ruin this via massive intervention.

[Oberon]

Well, Russia is going to continue the airstrikes anyway, so I doubt this will hold for long.

[Jimbuna]

Can be good.

If turks with saudis do not ruin this via massive intervention.

I think Russia beat them to it already.

[ikalugin]

I think Russia beat them to it already.
I meant in the sense of hitting our positions in a massive attack.

[Oberon]

I meant in the sense of hitting our positions in a massive attack.

They probably will, although I doubt they'll hit your positions, they'll go for Assad, which means that the RuAF and Russian ground forces will have to step in.
You see the problem with ceasefires is that all sides need to stop firing or it doesn't work. Daesh won't stop, we know that much, and if the RuAF was going to concentrate their bombing effort purely on Daesh during this possible cessation of hostilities then there might not be a problem, but we all know that that will not happen, and they will continue to clear a path for Assads forces because that's what they're there to do. As such, Assad will have to use his forces to manoeuvre, attack and exploit the gaps made by Russian bombing, which means that the enemy will be forced to open fire to defend itself and here we go again.
If I were Putin, I'd tell the RuAF to switch targets to Daesh only during this interim period, let Turkey and the Saudis make the first move in regards to attacking Assads forces, then Russia will have the upper moral ground...but to be fair, that's never really been a position that Putin has cared about, which has made him quite appealing to some in the west for some reason. Snag is, it makes it all to easy to paint him as the villain in the piece, I mean western forces are going to try anyway, why make it easy for them? I thought Russia was good at the whole propaganda game? :hmmm:

[Oberon]

Looks like the Saudis are writing off Lebanon as lost to Iran, they cancelled a large arms deal the other day and it looks like their next move might be to deep-six the Lebanese economy.

https://mideastwire.wordpress.com/2016/02/23/saudis-next-move-against-lebanon-could-be-in-the-form-of-a-financial-bomb-removing-massive-golddollar-deposits/

[Oberon]

Meanwhile the reformist movement is gathering steam in Iran:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-35681250

[eddie]

Meanwhile the reformist movement is gathering steam in Iran:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-35681250

The Republican Guard will only let that go so far, the moderates did well in Tehran, but haven't gained a whole lot across the country.

[Oberon]

The Republican Guard will only let that go so far, the moderates did well in Tehran, but haven't gained a whole lot across the country.

I guess a lot depends on what happens when the Ayatollah falls off his perch, a reformist Ayatollah could challenge the IRG, but he'd need to get the rest of the military behind him before he did, so not very likely. :hmmm:

[eddie]

I agree with you there Oberon, interesting to see what would happen n the near future. Wonder what kind of chance Rafsanjani would have to become the grand poobah? If he has any chance at all that is.

[Catfish]

Well it seems they blew the hardliners away in the election.. good for them.
We will have to see how this turns out, but for now it does not look bad at all:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/28/iranian-elections-deal-blow-to-hardliners-as-reformists-make-gains

Before and during the days of the Shah, Persia/Iran was a striving country. The Shah's dictatorship, torture and suppression lead to the rise of the Ayatollahs, you can imagine what the Shah was like, when they preferred a cleric madman like Chomeini.

Anyway iranian terrorists are relatively rare, so it does not quite fit in this thread.

Of course, just of all Saudi-Arabia now tries to stab Iran.. seems apart from Shiite and Sunnite there are also other axes they like to grind. And of course, saudi-arabian terrorists do not exist, in the US media. Such a great ally.

[Oberon]

Anyway iranian terrorists are relatively rare, so it does not quite fit in this thread.

Yeah, I'm just loathe to start a new thread about it, so I just dump it all in here, since at the end of the day it's going to have a knock on effect to Middle Eastern terrorism because of the Shia/Sunni war.

[Skybird]

Anyway iranian terrorists are relatively rare, so it does not quite fit in this thread.

Iran is one of the biggest - one of the top three - financiers of Muslim terrorism wordwide, beside Saudi Arabia, Quatar, UAE, privateers in Marocco, and not counting the weapons deals of Turkey with the IS. Iran also runs multiple proxy war operations and has military advisers and special commandos operating and participating in combat action in several countries it wants to destabilize.

All called allies of the West. Interesting.

Iranian terrorists "relatively rare"? Not in the world I live in.

[Skybird]

Anyway iranian terrorists are relatively rare, so it does not quite fit in this thread.

Iran is one of the biggest - one of the top three - financiers of Muslim terrorism wordwide, beside Saudi Arabia, Quatar, UAE, privateers in Marocco, and not counting the weapons deals of Turkey with the IS. Iran also runs multiple proxy war operations and has military advisers and special commandos operating and participating in combat action in several countries it wants to destabilize.

All called allies of the West. Interesting. Nice friends we made ourselves.

Iranian terrorists "relatively rare"? Not in the world I live in.

[Catfish]

^ hmm you seem to be right, but then there are so much conflicting reports. I rest my case.

2013:
http://www.merkur.de/politik/us-report-iran-unterstuetzt-terroristen-zr-2933363.html

2015:
http://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2015-12/terrorismus-islamischer-staat-hassan-ruhani-islambild

This just in:
http://www.israelnetz.com/arabische-welt/detailansicht/aktuell/iran-will-angehoerige-von-terroristen-entschaedigen-95119/

Especially the last :doh:

[Betonov]

Iranian funded terrorists rarely hit the west.
When it comes to Syria and the rest of the middle east hotspots, they're like ants (probably)

[Catfish]

Yep, seldomly sold to the sheep here in the media, but it's all in the web, everywhere. Must have completely overlooked that :oops: Sorry.

@ Skybird – aber was sagt man hierzu (?):
"Ähnlich im Irak: Obwohl der Iran sich verpflichtete, die Stabilisierung im Irak zu unterstützen, hat er – in Reaktion auf den Vormarsch von ISIL im Irak – die Ausbildung und Finanzierung irakischer schiitischer Milizen verstärkt. Viele von diesen Gruppen, wie zum Beispiel die „Kata’ib Hisbollah“, haben zur Erhöhung religiöser Spannungen im Irak beigetragen und an hauptsächlich sunnitischen Zivilpersonen schwere Menschenrechtsverletzungen begangen. Die IRGC-QF hat gemeinsam mit der libanesischen Hisbollah außerhalb des Irak Truppen ausgebildet, doch ebenso zu schiitischen Milizen im Irak Berater geschickt, zum Bau und Gebrauch von raffiniert improvisierter Sprengtechnik (IED) und anderem fortgeschrittenen Militärgerät. Ähnlich den Kämpfern der Hisbollah setzten diese ausgebildeten Schiiten ihre Fähigkeiten ein, um für das Assad-Regime in Syrien bzw. gegen ISIL im Irak zu kämpfen."

Ach so, ja, äh, was?

[Skybird]

I only giggle these days when I hear the West claiming that Rohani is a "moderate" - that is jujst wishful thinking so that Wetsern diplomats can assume they have somebody to talk to seriously. Rohani never was moderate at all, he is just much more clever than some others, hiding his very fundamentalist nature. He is an unwavered defender of a nculear program for Iran capable to form nuclear weapons, he always was, and still is. He just does not make waves about it.

A wolf in a sheep's clothing.

The West just desperately wants to believe anything that fits its hopes for not needing to accept a conflict over something, anything. Falling back - not standing up. Lip-confessions, not defending for real.

States have no friends - states have interests. That is true for Iran as well.

[Oberon]

Aye, at the end of the day they're both as bad as each other, Iran and Saudi Arabia, perhaps there will be reform but I doubt it. But there will be continued conflict, and if Iran does happen to get the bomb, it won't aim it at us, it'll aim it at Riyadh, and Saudi Arabia will get a bomb from Pakistan and point it at Tehran.
The west getting drawn into this is a bad idea, Russia is already in, let them play. Unfortunately with the whole oil dependency thing I doubt that we'll stay out, looking at the next two candidates for US presidency I'd say that it's almost guaranteed that the US will be going back into the middle of this Middle Eastern conflict. :dead:

[Catfish]

The situation is as usual, a lot of young better-educated people of the population want a better life in all respects, while another lot of conservative and religious people prefer the ways as they are.
And their government screws them all.

Election of a certain (modern) party in a lot of rural places was b.t.w. forbidden, in Iran. Because of "religious reasons".. and in those areas, the Ayatollahs still got their votes. If they had tried to pull this off in bigger towns like Teheran, there would have been an instant-revolution.

[August]

How far ahead are the Iranians to building their own bomb compared to the Saudis?

[Oberon]

How far ahead are the Iranians to building their own bomb compared to the Saudis?

AFAIK the Saudis haven't really made too much of an effort to get a bomb, although they've had groundwork for it, I believe they're working with the Chinese to get some nuclear power stations up and running by 2030, and they did have involvement with the short lived Iraqi nuclear program back in the day. If Iran did decide to go for a bomb then Saudi Arabia would get weapons either traded or on loan from Pakistan, I believe that is the unofficial agreement.
The Iranians though have put a hold on their nuclear program, I think that Mossad was doing a good job of quietly killing anyone involved with it, and with the sanctions biting in and oil prices coming down, it's probably easier for Iran to take on Saudi Arabia without a nuclear weapon than it is with one. If Israel got involved in the Sunni/Shia war then that might change, but at the moment Iran has got Saudi Arabia very worried, and with the turn of public opinion in the west away from Saudi Arabia, Iran has found itself in a stronger position with a more isolated Saudi opponent, and with Russia on its side in Syria helping to push the Saudi backed forces out and a quagmire in Yemen (which has shown some extremely large deficiencies in the Saudi military, such as Saudi M1A2 MBTs being destroyed by Iranian copies of the Konkurs ATGM, and other American bought equipment being abandoned to the enemy as the ill trained crew flee the battlefield.
And this is just the opening phases of this religious cold war, I can't rule out nuclear weapons being bought in at a later date, but it would depend on a lot of factors.

[Oberon]

"The names change, the world doesn't."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BmAY__hlXs

[Schroeder]

Here's a little video about what the German efforts against DEASH are:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDHi423EvO0

[Nippelspanner]

Here's a little video about what the German efforts against DEASH are:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDHi423EvO0
6 Tornados.

So... basically all we are able to get airborne? :yeah:

[Schroeder]

6 Tornados.

So... basically all we are able to get airborne? :yeah:
Most likely more than we can actually get airborne....:/\\!!

[Betonov]

I'm guessing ther'es at least a squadron at home, should the Russians get frisky :03:

[Schroeder]

I'm guessing ther'es at least a squadron at home, should the Russians get frisky :03:
IIRC we still have 69 Tornados of which only some 20ish are in airworthy condition with the rest awaiting repairs / spare parts / maintenance you name it.... of these 20iesh 6 are now in Turkey.

[Oberon]

That's 6 more Tonkas than we probably have. :O:

[eddie]

Wonder why Iran is pulling out its 2,500 troops from Syria?

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2016/03/01/iran-to-withdraw-2500-troops-from-syrai/

[Oberon]

That's a bit concerning, where are they off to? Yemen? :hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

Wonder why Iran is pulling out its 2,500 troops from Syria?

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2016/03/01/iran-to-withdraw-2500-troops-from-syrai/

They've received EU passports and are enroute to Calais :)

[mapuc]

The Danish Government have today decided to send

6-8 F-16
Special forces(1)
And crew to maintain the F-16

(1) Their main objective is to highlight the target for the pilots
Secondary is to either blow things up or assassin high rank Daesh member.
They will operate of course have to operate inside Daesh controlled areas.

Markus

[eddie]

That's a bit concerning, where are they off to? Yemen? :hmmm:

I wonder if this has anything to do with it Oberon. I've read other reports of him being wounded too!

http://newsblaze.com/story/20151203160654shak.nb/topstory.html

[Mittelwaechter]

IIRC we still have 69 Tornados of which only some 20ish are in airworthy condition with the rest awaiting repairs / spare parts / maintenance you name it.... of these 20iesh 6 are now in Turkey.

Sure gemtlemen, all our weapons are totally crap and we own only 20 usable jets. Read it in the newspapers and repeat it dutyfully to adopt it.

Our well armed machine-uterus Troopers Ursel has broken all the good stuff, just after our Oil-Prince von und zu Copy&Paste has left a fully operational Bundeswehr in excellent condition, to be led by sinister, serious and stout Misèrable Tom doing an awesome job.

I would call them fully operational only if there are two complete engines in reserve. So I could argue anytime to be in need of taxmoney to get my other jets operational, if this would be necessary.

Assume we have 20 jets fully operational and 49 jets only partially operational, while 11 are in repair and 7 are only used for spare parts (you may search yourself for the actual numbers).
These 49 jets are totally capable of carrying ordnance into a fight as to be shot down. ;)

But 49x2 is 98 engines to be bought for a "fully operational" fleet of 69 jets.
Well, thats all dead, spent money for the taxpayer, but profit for the engines builders.

Now guess what they do? And what is the situation with these sophisticated Typhoons?

[mapuc]

Now I know exactly what Denmark are going to send as a contribution in the war against Daesh

7 F-16 latest version

60 special forces-from frogman corps and commando troops

A Hercules transport plane

Ground crew to assist the fighter jet and the transporter plane.

In all about 300 persons.

If I understand the article correctly Denmark is the country who contributes most if you look to the population

Markus
Markus

[Oberon]

Terrorist hide found in country park:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-35739286

[Jimbuna]

I wonder if it was linked in any way to the recent van bomb?

I know a few NI personnel and they still check their vehicles on a regular basis.

[Schroeder]

Could that actually be the first non Islamic entry in this threat?:o

[Oberon]

Could that actually be the first non Islamic entry in this threat?:o

Probably the first non-disputed non-Islamic entry. :hmmm:

And Jim, I'd not be surprised if it was, looks like we may be slowly sliding back into troubles, although so far it's contained in Norn Iron.

[mapuc]

According to RT- Al Nusra is shelling areas in Turkey near the Border to Syria-They are trying to get Turkey to send troops into Syria.

Markus

[Jimbuna]

Probably the first non-disputed non-Islamic entry. :hmmm:

And Jim, I'd not be surprised if it was, looks like we may be slowly sliding back into troubles, although so far it's contained in Norn Iron.

Hope not but it is a bit galling to see a certain pair preaching peace and understanding on the news channels when they were/are obvious founding elements.

[Betonov]

Slovene media reports, that about 300 Bosnians went to fight alongside ISIS, but are all trying to return back home, willing to surrender themselves to the police and go to prison.

[Tchocky]

Hope not but it is a bit galling to see a certain pair preaching peace and understanding on the news channels when they were/are obvious founding elements.


Don't get me started.

Adams is technically my TD, and a close neighbour of my parents.

Very glad to be out of the country.

[Jimbuna]

Don't get me started.

Adams is technically my TD, and a close neighbour of my parents.

Very glad to be out of the country.

Yeah, fully understandable :yep:

[Oberon]

Meanwhile back in the sandpit.

Saudi Arabia is gearing up for the long haul, and is looking for a loan to shore up its coffers (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-loan-idUSKCN0WB0K1?utm_source=twitter) .

[eddie]

I hope this turns out to be true!

An Islamic State commander described by the Pentagon as the group's "minister of war" was likely killed in a U.S. air strike in Syria, U.S. officials said on Tuesday, in what would be a major victory in the United States' efforts to strike the militant group's leadership.Abu Omar al-Shishani, also known as Omar the Chechen, ranked among America's most wanted militants under a U.S. program that offered up to $5 million for information to help remove him from the battlefield.


http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/islamic-states-minister-of-war-likely-killed-in-us-air-strike-officials/ar-AAgxCvq

[Nippelspanner]

I hope this turns out to be true!

Can't help myself but to smile about the fact that he lost his dumb grin for good. :D
http://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AAekCUC.img?h=277&w=270&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=1386&y=985

Good riddance.

[eddie]

Can't help myself but to smile about the fact that he lost his dumb grin for good. :D
http://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AAekCUC.img?h=277&w=270&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=1386&y=985

Good riddance.

I agree, would love to knock that goofy grin off his face! But hope our aircraft did it for us!:D

[Jimbuna]

It doesn't help matters seeing as how he was a 'ginga'.

j/k

[ikalugin]

Also a Chechen. We would rather bomb those people in Syria than bomb them in Chechnya.

[eddie]

He's not dead yet it sounds like, maybe he will die of his wounds hopefully! Sooner then later too!:)

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/is-commander-omar-the-chechen-survived-us-strike-monitor/ar-AAgzXWm

[Jimbuna]

He's not dead yet it sounds like, maybe he will die of his wounds hopefully! Sooner then later too!:)

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/is-commander-omar-the-chechen-survived-us-strike-monitor/ar-AAgzXWm

Rgr that :yep:

[eddie]

Daesh is using chemical weapons now, (low grade stuff) but still potent enough to kill a young Iraqi girl, 3 years old.

Would love to see the military catch these scum using these weapons out in the open somewhere, and napalm the hell out of them!:nope:


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/12/isis-launches-two-chemical-attacks-in-northern-iraq

[Oberon]

Napalm would be too good for them, a whiff of chlorine gas would perhaps do the job, enough to physically disable them for the rest of their life.

[mapuc]

Throughout Europe the Intelligence service has said Daesh could be preparing huge simultaneous attack around Europe

If true, I fear they will use Chemical stuff in some of these attacks

Markus

[Oberon]

Entirely possible, but hard to say, we were all certain that an NBC attack would happen 'soon' after 9/11, but it's been 15 years and we've fortunately been spared one, with the exception of the brief anthrax scare.
That won't last forever, they only have to get lucky once while we have to get lucky all the time, such is the cost of the war that we're in.

[Jimbuna]

Daesh is using chemical weapons now, (low grade stuff) but still potent enough to kill a young Iraqi girl, 3 years old.

Would love to see the military catch these scum using these weapons out in the open somewhere, and napalm the hell out of them!:nope:


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/12/isis-launches-two-chemical-attacks-in-northern-iraq

Send troops in and attack the cities they hold, forcing them into a deserted city/area then use a tactical nuke to end it all.

Oh, if life was so simple.

[eddie]

Send troops in and attack the cities they hold, forcing them into a deserted city/area then use a tactical nuke to end it all.

Oh, if life was so simple.

I agree Jim!:up: Could you imagine what its going to be like to clear out Mosul in the future. Think of all the IED's they have planted in there already, the tunnel systems they have dug too! The soldiers that have to go in there and clear them out are going to feel like they have stepped in to hell on earth.

[Jimbuna]

I agree Jim!:up: Could you imagine what its going to be like to clear out Mosul in the future. Think of all the IED's they have planted in there already, the tunnel systems they have dug too! The soldiers that have to go in there and clear them out are going to feel like they have stepped in to hell on earth.

Make the prisoners go in and clear the place.

[Oberon]

Reports are coming in that indicate that Putin has ordered the withdrawal of the major part of the Russian forces in Syria, stating that they have achieved their objective. :o

Trying to extract before Russia gets too mired in it, whilst the cease-fire is sort of holding, perhaps? :hmmm:

[tomfon]

Maybe he run out of money. And of course the "make a mess and leave" policy? :hmm2:

[Jimbuna]

My guess would be that a deal has been done with an end date for sanctions against Russia....but what of the Ukraine? :hmm2:

[Oberon]

My guess would be that a deal has been done with an end date for sanctions against Russia....but what of the Ukraine? :hmm2:

Yeah, it was the Ukraine that prompted the sanctions in the first place, so I can't see them being dropped just yet. :hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

Yeah, it was the Ukraine that prompted the sanctions in the first place, so I can't see them being dropped just yet. :hmmm:

Then it may be the case that Putin believes he has adequately demonstrated to the world what power he can unleash at short notice and is withdrawing some of said power on the understanding it can be unleashed again should anyone threaten Assad in the future.

I find it hard to believe that all parties concerned will ever reach a uified consensus of agreement in the region.

[Oberon]

Then it may be the case that Putin believes he has adequately demonstrated to the world what power he can unleash at short notice and is withdrawing some of said power on the understanding it can be unleashed again should anyone threaten Assad in the future.

I find it hard to believe that all parties concerned will ever reach a uified consensus of agreement in the region.

That would make sense, it did happen not long after it looked like we might start attacking Assad. :hmmm:

[Dan D]

Reports are coming in that indicate that Putin has ordered the withdrawal of the major part of the Russian forces in Syria, stating that they have achieved their objective. :o

Trying to extract before Russia gets too mired in it, whilst the cease-fire is sort of holding, perhaps? :hmmm:

Yes.
Putin orders to begin withdrawal of Russian forces from Syria starting March 15 (http://tass.ru/en/politics/862267)

Russia can't afford more war action as its economy it weaker than that of e.g. France or the UK right now?

[Jimbuna]

That would make sense, it did happen not long after it looked like we might start attacking Assad. :hmmm:

Up to the western coalition as to what is their next move I suspect.

[eddie]

Don't know if this is terrorism related or not, but a Serbian airliner that was scheduled to fly to Oregon, was found to have a surprise package on it. The package was found to be carrying 2 Hellfire missiles with their warheads attached!!:doh: Seems they originally came from Lebanon?

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/serbia-us-bound-combat-missiles-found-on-passenger-flight/ar-AAgJ9w8

[mapuc]

Maybe Putin took home his military from Syria, because he have other plans for the future and he don't want his military engage on two or three front.

Got this feeling that Putin is planning something.
(Guess we have to reopen the Ukraine-thread again if I'm right)

Markus

[Oberon]

Well, at least it wasn't heading for Cuba this time. :hmmm:

[vienna]

Maybe Putin took home his military from Syria, because he have other plans for the future and he don't want his military engage on two or three front.

Got this feeling that Putin is planning something.
(Guess we have to reopen the Ukraine-thread again if I'm right)

Markus

Could also be his buddies in Iran have give him a heads up on action the Iranians plan to take against Isis in Syria; if Iran goes in hot and heavy, as threatened, Putin may not want to have his troops perhaps caught in the crossfire...

Well, at least Dubbya could lend Putin one of his keepsakes:

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/images/putin-crimea-mission-accomplished.jpg



<O>

[eddie]

Could also be his buddies in Iran have give him a heads up on action the Iranians plan to take against Isis in Syria; if Iran goes in hot and heavy, as threatened, Putin may not want to have his troops perhaps caught in the crossfire...

O>

Problem with that though is that Iran is pulling 2,500 troops out of Syria.

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2016/03/01/iran-to-withdraw-2500-troops-from-syrai/

[eddie]

Its been confirmed, that Chechen IS dead!:yeah:


http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/is-commander-omar-the-chechen-dead-us-confirms/ar-BBqsAaa

[ikalugin]

Well we have accomplished our immediate objectives namely:
- ISIS and extremists ain't going anywhere.
- we keep the bases.
- showed how stronk we are in a prolonged live fire exercise in unfamiliar TMA. Gained lots of valuable experience too.

The bonus is that Assad is stabilized and is now recognized as a party in the peace talks, which is quite some progress when compared to a year ago.

[Mr Quatro]

The rest of the story will come out next week when the other shoe drops: http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/15/world/russia-syria-withdrawal/index.html

Russia's bombing blitz in Syria will end today, leaving behind both significant destruction and a Syrian regime to largely fend for itself.

The first group of Russian planes left Russia's Hmeymim air base in Syria on Tuesday morning, the Russian Defense Ministry said.

The surprise announcement by Russia on Monday came as suddenly as the airstrike campaign started last September.

[Rockstar]

Well, I have just one word for you ikalugin.










congratulations. :D

[Skybird]

The Russians do not lie here - they indeed have acchieved most of their objectives. Its just that due to ignporing reality and wishful thinking the West failed to recognise that the Russians' goals and the West's goals were two different pairs of shoes.

The Russians goal was not to necessarily wipe out the IS. Most of their combat was not focussed on the IS anyway, but any opposition to Assad, no matter which faction. Putin claimed before it began that he was about "to support and strengthen the legal government of Syria", which in Russia's view of things is Assad. And they indeed have achieved that objective. Assad gained ground recently, many if not all the IS' and other opposition groups strongholds are isolated and cut off from supply, the logistcal supply lines are interrupted, parts due to Russia, parts due to Western military as well.

The announced objectives indeed are achieved. And why should the Kremlin want to wipe out the IS when it is so nice a nuisance, or better a PITA, for the West and Europe and America, binds their focus and resources, and destabilises the ME so to notoriously set up new problems for the West? Better keep the sting in your enemy's flank sharp and alive than pulling it out. Also, an active IS will keep the mass migration streams alive, putting Merkel into more trouble and helping to destabilise Europe.

Welcome to the strategic world of Realpolitik in which illusions and ambitioned hopes will lead you nowhere.

The Russians keep their air and naval bases, and can reinforce again their presence in Syria any time they want to do that. And a totally wiped out IS is not in Russia'S interest.

[ikalugin]

Our objectives were:
- keeping ISIS out of Russian neighbourhood.
- keeping bases in Med.
- showing how stronk!/relevant! we are.
- large scale training in realistic environment.

Now, those were not our objectives:
- full stabilisation of Syria.
- nation building.

Hence we have achieved our objectives, wrecked other's game in the area (Assad was not a party to negotiations before - now he is) and now we could leave. Shame that a western coalition was not deeply commited against ISIS with ground troops.

Not that we won't return if we feel like it.

[Mittelwaechter]

- There will be parliament elections in mid april. Putin wants to keep Assad in charge, so no pipeline from the gulf to Europe will be built. A sovereign Assad caring and fighting for the country's fate will have more support than a puppet dependent on foreign help.
Additionally: all the foreign fighters in Syria will have no vote - and the legal residents know who to support and who to blame. Those strongly supportive to Assad are still in Syria, while the rest is somewhere.

- The "opposition" will have to show its will to find a peaceful solution in Geneva - just like Assad does. If they fall back to war, the western community of values will have to admit them to be the warmongers.

- ISIS stays a major western problem. It's our child, shall we care for this sting in our flesh. If it regains more power in Syria, the world community can observe who supports it.

- Turkey has no justification to call NATO for help against a Russian threat. The West may finally lose its patience with an Erdogan doing business with ISIS while bombing the Kurds.

- How long did it take the Russians to intervene, after they decided to do so? Could it happen again if necessary?

Edit: We may see some matching Russian behaviour soon to prevent the Iranian version of a pipeline (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Pipeline) passing south of Russian influence into Europe.

[ikalugin]

If need be we could come back even faster than the first time over because we keep the bases.

[Betonov]

You should have hanged Assad and installed a competent puppet.
With mustachio in power you'll be back in a year.

[Mr Quatro]

Perhaps Russian intel found out that the rebels backed by Saudi's have heat seeking missiles or isis is warning Russia using envoys to back off or they will use wmd's on the neighborhoods of the homeland. The bold underline is mine the rest is just a guess that Russia is not that dumb to see things are going to get nasty with the enemies back against the wall. :o

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/15/world/russia-withdrawal-from-syria-whats-next/index.html

CNN Moscow correspondent Matthew Chance says that Putin is declaring victory and getting out before it turns messy.

"The Russians can say they've made and achieved military objectives, brought partners to the table, supported their Middle East ally Bashar Al Assad, all with minimal Russian cost," says Chance.

[Tchocky]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35809974


One suspect has been shot dead, officials say, and two others are said to be still on the run following a counter-terrorism raid in Brussels.


The suspects were said to have been barricaded in a flat after earlier firing shots at the police.


Sigh.

[Oberon]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CdmjiT2XIAAldG6.jpg:large

GG Nextmap

[vienna]

Problem with that though is that Iran is pulling 2,500 troops out of Syria.

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2016/03/01/iran-to-withdraw-2500-troops-from-syrai/

Noted, but there has been talk out of Iran of a tit-for-tat in terms of chemical weapon use; I heard one analyst on a radio show here speculating Iran may be poised to launch an air attack (no need for ground troops) with some sort of chemical devices on Isis and its cohorts. I guess we'll know if the Shiite hits the fan...


<O>

[Jimbuna]

With Russia relaxing airstrikes I should imagine there will be a good number of civilians feeling relieved.

[eddie]

Noted, but there has been talk out of Iran of a tit-for-tat in terms of chemical weapon use; I heard one analyst on a radio show here speculating Iran may be poised to launch an air attack (no need for ground troops) with some sort of chemical devices on Isis and its cohorts. I guess we'll no if the Shiite hits the fan...


<O>

I agree, Iran is still leaving "advisers", so will be interesting to see what they do.

[eddie]

With Russia relaxing airstrikes I should imagine there will be a good number of civilians feeling relieved.

I bet Jim. Can't imagine what its been like for them just to have clean water to drink, or decent food to eat.

[ikalugin]

Perhaps Russian intel found out that the rebels backed by Saudi's have heat seeking missiles or isis is warning Russia using envoys to back off or they will use wmd's on the neighborhoods of the homeland. The bold underline is mine the rest is just a guess that Russia is not that dumb to see things are going to get nasty with the enemies back against the wall. :o

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/15/world/russia-withdrawal-from-syria-whats-next/index.html
Majority of the airstrikes were conducted from above the MANPADS ceiling. If ISIS were to use WMDs on Russian soil (with effect significantly above a regular terrorist attack) ISIS would be recognised as a state and then would physcially seize to exist in about 3 hours. No man - no problem.

[ikalugin]

I bet Jim. Can't imagine what its been like for them just to have clean water to drink, or decent food to eat.
I would say that arty had a more profound effect on their life.

You could read an account of arty use in 2nd Chechen war here:
http://artofwar.ru/c/cehanowich_b_g/text_0890.shtml

[August]

Majority of the airstrikes were conducted from above the MANPADS ceiling. If ISIS were to use WMDs on Russian soil (with effect significantly above a regular terrorist attack) ISIS would be recognised as a state and then would physcially seize to exist in about 3 hours. No man - no problem.

So no problem wiping out all the civilians in the areas that ISIS has occupied?

[ikalugin]

So no problem wiping out all the civilians in the areas that ISIS has occupied?
And then I look at Hiroshima, Nagasaki and all the conventional strategic bombing campaighns.

[Nippelspanner]

And then I look at Hiroshima, Nagasaki and all the conventional strategic bombing campaighns.
In before "we had no choice!"

[ikalugin]

In before "we had no choice!"
Alternatively we could invade the Gulf Monarchies for alleged links with ISIS. Because invading Afghanistan for the 6th time would be boring.

[Oberon]

In before "we had no choice!"

Out of interest, how would you have brought Japan to surrender at maximum benefit to the Allies (ie; before the Soviets could invade Hokkaido) with minimal bloodshed to the Allied forces and Japanese civilian population?

[ikalugin]

Out of interest, how would you have brought Japan to surrender at maximum benefit to the Allies (ie; before the Soviets could invade Hokkaido) with minimal bloodshed to the Allied forces and Japanese civilian population?
One could argue that the Soviet entry into the war by itself (with the collapse of Manchuria) has achieved the early surrender, as IJ was trying to get a conditional surrender via then neutral USSR.

[Oberon]

One could argue that the Soviet entry into the war by itself (with the collapse of Manchuria) has achieved the early surrender, as IJ was trying to get a conditional surrender via then neutral USSR.

A fair point, but by this point the signatories of the Potsdam Declaration had decided upon unconditional surrender as the only acceptable outcome.
One could perhaps cite that as a misunderstanding of the Japanese mind, of the need for 'peace with preservation of honour', but would a Japan that did not have a major American occupation and rebuilding post war be the same Japan that we see today? I think it may have resulted in a darker outcome for the Japanese people had the armed forces been allowed to continue running the government. :hmmm:
Has anyone discovered what the conditions were for Japanese surrender that were being put forward before the bombs were deployed? :hmmm:

[HunterICX]

^ Unconditional
the United States called for the unconditional surrender of the Japanese armed forces in the Potsdam Declaration (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potsdam_Declaration) on July 26, 1945—the alternative being "prompt and utter destruction". While publicly stating their intent to fight on to the bitter end, Japan's leaders (the Supreme Council for the Direction of the War (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0)), also known as the "Big Six") were privately making entreaties to the still-neutral Soviet Union (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union) to mediate peace on terms more favorable to the Japanese.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan

[Oberon]

^ Unconditional
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan

Sorry, bad phrasing, I meant what terms was Japan putting forward as conditions for its surrender?
Preservation of the Emperor and his role is obviously one (as well as his immunity from trial), but were there any others? :hmmm:

[ikalugin]

Back on topic.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e7oD5sCulf4&ebc=ANyPxKrmfLoA_9_0ckNs3OBXakMpMStR35KfUi-HUogbZo-eWxk6y-djFNfa75hV2fcyt8AV6QDS
Note Ka52 in the background.

[August]

And then I look at Hiroshima, Nagasaki and all the conventional strategic bombing campaighns.

Well then I look at Holodomor and the tens of millions of other innocent civilians deliberately murdered by the previous Russian regime. See, I can play the diversion game too, but that still doesn't answer my question about civilians in daesh held areas.

[Raptor1]

Sorry, bad phrasing, I meant what terms was Japan putting forward as conditions for its surrender?
Preservation of the Emperor and his role is obviously one (as well as his immunity from trial), but were there any others? :hmmm:

Their main priority seems to have been the preservation of their system of government, but besides that I don't think the Japanese ever laid out the terms under which they would be willing to surrender in detail. They were planning to send an envoy to the Soviet Union, as part of their attempts to get the Soviets to mediate peace with the Allies, which would have presumably issued such terms, but this obviously never happened.

[Oberon]

Their main priority seems to have been the preservation of their system of government, but besides that I don't think the Japanese ever laid out the terms under which they would be willing to surrender in detail. They were planning to send an envoy to the Soviet Union, as part of their attempts to get the Soviets to mediate peace with the Allies, which would have presumably issued such terms, but this obviously never happened.

Aah, I see, so the Emperor would definitely have stayed and likely the military government. I wonder how the culture of Bushido, as twisted by the military government, would have survived a national surrender. :hmmm:
Likewise the collapsing harvest of 1945 would have meant that Japan would have had to have gone cap in hand to the Allies for food shipments or face further starvation. It would have been very humiliating, but I dare say the military could have spun it some way, but I ponder how long such a government could stay in power...although with Communist China becoming a thing, perhaps the US would have been willing to help prop it up in order to act as a bulwark against the Chinese. Like South Korea and Syngman Rhee. :hmmm:

[ikalugin]

Well then I look at Holodomor and the tens of millions of other innocent civilians deliberately murdered by the previous Russian regime. See, I can play the diversion game too, but that still doesn't answer my question about civilians in daesh held areas.
You miss the point, there was no diversion.

The point was the if the Hiroshima/Nagasaki (and other strategic bombing campaigns) were justified, then so would be such a campaighn against ISIS.

[Oberon]

Russia has ratified the 1977 Protocol I of the Geneva Convention which contains Articles 51 and 54 which:

"outlaw indiscriminate attacks on civilian populations, and destruction of food, water, and other materials needed for survival. Indiscriminate attacks include directly attacking civilian (non-military) targets, but also using technology such as biological weapons, nuclear weapons and land mines, whose scope of destruction cannot be limited. A total war that does not distinguish between civilian and military targets is considered a war crime."

Ironically enough, the US, Turkey, Iran, Israel, India and Pakistan have not ratified it, although the US and Iran have signed it so that indicates that they intend to work towards ratifying it...some day...some time...

Then again, who really cares about the Geneva Convention these days, I mean who is going to uphold it? The UN? :har:

[ikalugin]

Russia has ratified the 1977 Protocol I of the Geneva Convention which contains Articles 51 and 54 which:



Ironically enough, the US, Turkey, Iran, Israel, India and Pakistan have not ratified it, although the US and Iran have signed it so that indicates that they intend to work towards ratifying it...some day...some time...

Then again, who really cares about the Geneva Convention these days, I mean who is going to uphold it? The UN? :har:
Well played, though I think that you got the wording wrong (nukes are not mentioned in this: https://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/7c4d08d9b287a42141256739003e636b/f6c8b9fee14a77fdc125641e0052b079 text for example within the articles you have specified).

Article 51 sections 4 and 5, article 54 section 2 are aplicable, but then if you interpret their wording strictly then a lot of people are warcriminals instead of warfighters.

[Mittelwaechter]

As long as nobody declares war there are no war crimes. There is no war.

Any robust action against terrorists is considered a robust action against terrorists - and the Geneva Convention has no rules for that.

A big gun and the power to define the terrorist justifies any action against whoever.

If there are some civilians hurt, it's their problem. They are accepted collateral damage - or simply declared to be terrorists too and therefore "legally" incinerated or phosphorized or carpet bombed or napalmed. That's what we do - what our uniformed terrorists do.

I guess anybody can do it on the exact same level of legality.

Even the other terrorists.

[August]

You miss the point, there was no diversion.

The point was the if the Hiroshima/Nagasaki (and other strategic bombing campaigns) were justified, then so would be such a campaighn against ISIS.

There was a time when torturing and burning enemy captives within sight of their city walls was justified too. I do understand your point because if they nuked one of our cities I'd want revenge as well, but Hiroshima/Nagasaki was considered necessary to avoid a a very bloody invasion that would make all previous invasions seem like Boy Scout camping trips but Daesh is no Imperial Japan and it won't take the A-Bomb to defeat them. You can hurt them just as badly with todays conventional weapons.

[ikalugin]

There was a time when torturing and burning enemy captives within sight of their city walls was justified too. I do understand your point because if they nuked one of our cities I'd want revenge as well, but Hiroshima/Nagasaki was considered necessary to avoid a a very bloody invasion that would make all previous invasions seem like Boy Scout camping trips but Daesh is no Imperial Japan and it won't take the A-Bomb to defeat them. You can hurt them just as badly with todays conventional weapons.
Compared to the recent wars we had (ie 080808 war) invasion of ISIS would be very bloody (atleast as bloody as the war in Afghanistan). So the comparison is valid. Still, in a way I agree with you - the US way is better in this case, hence we should bomb the Gulf states instead if such an incident happens.

[August]

Compared to the recent wars we had (ie 080808 war) invasion of ISIS would be very bloody (atleast as bloody as the war in Afghanistan). So the comparison is valid.

Well the US expected over a million casualties conquering the main islands (and another 10 million Japanese casualties, mostly civilians). No way subduing Daesh would take that.

...hence we should bomb the Gulf states instead if such an incident happens.

I agree that in the event of a WMD deployment any states supporting Daesh should receive at least some form of retribution.

[Betonov]

I agree that in the event of a WMD deployment any states supporting Daesh should receive at least some form of retribution.

The Saudis can pay with free oil.
They're not worth spending money on bullets anyways.

[mapuc]

In a former statement ikalugin said that if Daesh dropped some kind of ABC weapon on Russian soil, there would not be any more Daesh controlled soil
(something like that, can't remember the exact phrase)

It doesn't have to be Daesh, who would do this, it could very well be some other Islamic terror group.

Daesh have supporters in Muslim countries and around the world and I'm sure that somewhere some Islamic terror group is taking an attack on Daesh as an attack on Islam and will revenge this.

So Russia should not only look after Daesh-terrorist or their supporter, but also other Islamic terror groups.

Markus

[August]

So Russia should not only look after Daesh-terrorist or their supporter, but also other Islamic terror groups.

That is a good point Markus. These groups are shadowy and somewhat nebulous. If a Russian (or any other nationality) city is attacked it might be difficult to determine just who did it. Especially in the case of a nuclear bomb as there won't be a lot of forensic evidence left to gather.

[Oberon]

https://twitter.com/Zuttish/status/711171371817168896

:nope:

Such a shame, such a terrible shame that Turkey has come to this.

[Jimbuna]

https://twitter.com/Zuttish/status/711171371817168896

:nope:

Such a shame, such a terrible shame that Turkey has come to this.

I fear it may well get a lot worse now that negotiations have ceased.

[ikalugin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF9V8POmuxg
Look at what my hungarian friend has linked me. Those right wing fears are so fun.

[Rockstar]

Na Na Na Na
Hey Hey Hey
Goodbye!

[Dowly]

Reports say the blasts were in the departures area and speak of casualties although this has not been confirmed.http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35869254

:nope:

EDIT: Live Reddit https://www.reddit.com/live/wmk50bsm9vt3

[tomfon]

11 dead??? Has it been confirmed?

[Dowly]

Another explosion reported at Maalbeek metro station...

[tomfon]

Sky News reports 10 dead and 30 injured, at the airport...

[Wildcat]

This is bad news, sorry to hear of this. But I can't say it is surprising at all. This is what happens when you invite these people in droves.

[HunterICX]

*Sigh* :shifty::nope:

Can't say it is surprising in the least and with the arrest of Abdeslam last week one starts to ponder if in a way this is related.

[Oberon]

Bugger, yeah, not an entirely large surprise, but still terrible. :nope:

Thoughts are with the people of Belgium. Stay strong my friends.

[Tchocky]

Friends working at the airport and EU Parliament marked safe. That was a fun way to spend a Tuesday morning.


But I can't say it is surprising at all. This is what happens when you invite these people in droves.

Not now.

[Mr Quatro]

They were worried about this happening right after the Paris attack.

I thought isis was looking for Abdeslam too due to his deciding to make a run for it.

They say the neighborhood he was caught in is full of his friends, but I bet someone turned him in for the reward.

[Oberon]

Friends working at the airport and EU Parliament marked safe. That was a fun way to spend a Tuesday morning.

Glad to hear that you and your friends are safe. :yep:

[ikalugin]

Condolences.

[ikalugin]

However lessons must be learned from this event so that it doesn't repeat itself in the near future.

I also wonder if it would reinforce the possible shift to the right wing policies in Europe and how it would affect the current immigrant/refugee crisis.

[Jimbuna]

*Sigh* :shifty::nope:

Can't say it is surprising in the least and with the arrest of Abdeslam last week one starts to ponder if in a way this is related.

I would have thought so....a kind of payback or reminder to the authorities they/terrorists are still in the area.

Friends working at the airport and EU Parliament marked safe. That was a fun way to spend a Tuesday morning.



Nice one :sunny:

They were worried about this happening right after the Paris attack.

I thought isis was looking for Abdeslam too due to his deciding to make a run for it.

They say the neighborhood he was caught in is full of his friends, but I bet someone turned him in for the reward.

The area he lived in is reported as not being a no-go area but rather a 'police or not welcome here' area.

What I have learned from the news channels this morning that astonishes me is the report that the Belgian security services are poorly organised....two areas, north and south speaking different languages amongst sixteen agencies and practically none or at the best very little contact with the intelligence or security services. In fact, it is being reported that the intelligence service seldom talk or liase with that of France but get most of their information from the UK intelligence agencies.

If the above is true then a radical overhaul of their structure and systems is urgently needed.

[Oberon]

Sadly these sort of attacks are pretty hard to prevent, you can remain vigilant and raid suspected houses but they only have to get lucky once whereas you have to be lucky all the time.
The anti-migrant parties will make hay from this, no mistake, they will do well and gain more followers out of it. :nope: In fact, they are probably the only people who benefit from attacks like this.

Anyway, that's enough of that talk from me, this is not really the time for it, and I apologise for branching off into it. For now, all we can do is watch and hope that this situation is resolved quickly and with as few casualties as possible.

[Skybird]

Belgium spent past years with looking at the other direction, reality-denial, and appeasement, assuming that monsters not looked at would seize to exist all by themselves. Not before Paris, the Belgians started to stare really hard into the dark corners. Too late - today Belgium crashed hard on the concrete ground of reality.

After the Paris attacks, a whole offensive, a series of attacks, had been announced by the ideology-of-peace-activists.

Not nice for the affected families. But certainly not unexpected.

Germany has a blossoming Salafist scene as well, and these guys also are highly dangerous, expanding rapidly and missionising successfully. What happened in Paris and Belgium, sooner or later will happen here, too.

Edit. Now 26 dead. More casualties are feared.

[HunterICX]

According to the Dutch news papers through kurdish sources they tell that ISIS claims responsibility for the attacks on Brussels.

[ikalugin]

Meanwhile Ukraine blames the attacks on Russia.
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/colonelcassad/19281164/824683/824683_900.jpg

[Rockstar]

Sadly these sort of attacks are pretty hard to prevent, you can remain vigilant and raid suspected houses but they only have to get lucky once whereas you have to be lucky all the time.
The anti-migrant parties will make hay from this, no mistake, they will do well and gain more followers out of it. :nope: In fact, they are probably the only people who benefit from attacks like this.

Anyway, that's enough of that talk from me, this is not really the time for it, and I apologise for branching off into it. For now, all we can do is watch and hope that this situation is resolved quickly and with as few casualties as possible.


You're right, liked how you just come right out and start making political hay anyway though. Then tell everyone else its not really the time to talk that. :nope:

If you really think something should not be talked about. Then don't.

[Oberon]

You're right, liked how you sneak it in there though then tell everyone else its not really the time to talk about. :nope:

I'm only human.

[Jimbuna]

BBC are quoting latest death toll at 28 with more expected :nope:

[ikalugin]

BBC are quoting latest death toll at 28 with more expected :nope:
Well, atleast it is not an air liner (more would have died then)

[Onkel Neal]

Ahh, damn. :nope: I know the people in Brussels and Europe are stricken by this attack, my heart and thoughts go out to them.

[Wildcat]

I don't see how this can be NON political

the entire attack itself is a political and religious statement by Islamic lunatics whom we are letting into our countries by the shipload each day.

Nobody can speak in absolutes but this attack probably wouldn't have happened if Europe was not taking in so many terrorists. The lunatics committing these atrocities against innocent people need to be kept out. How many more of these incidents will it take?

[Onkel Neal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF9V8POmuxg
Look at what my hungarian friend has linked me. Those right wing fears are so fun.

Right-wing fears, I don't know. It's difficult to point out a growing change in culture and demographics without being attacked as xenophobic. I wonder Massasoit had critics to his immigration policies?

[Oberon]

http://i.imgur.com/eKM2bOb.jpg

:roll:

[Skybird]

I don't see how this can be NON political

the entire attack itself is a political and religious statement by Islamic lunatics whom we are letting into our countries by the shipload each day.

Nobody can speak in absolutes but this attack probably wouldn't have happened if Europe was not taking in so many terrorists. The lunatics committing these atrocities against innocent people need to be kept out. How many more of these incidents will it take?
While Euro intel services know for sure that and warn of - to their political masters' disgust - more and more experienced IS types are smuggling themselves into Europe via the mass migration currently hitting Europe, its also that many established Muslim organisations in Europe and Germany missionize aggressively amongst their local hosts and in migration camps as well and over the past years have often increased their numbers and the number of strike-willing recruits by several factors. Muslim lobby organisations still are busy with telling the public that Islam has nothing to do with it, and that identifying Islam behind the motivation of these strikers is "Islamophobia".

Terror attacks like now again are the more sensational spectaculum, no doubt. But the development towards more and more Islam-appeasing and knee-bowing, always done in the name of mutual understanding and multiculturalism, is far more dangerous. The evil on open display can be easily identified and pointed finger at, and nobody will dare to resist condemning it in loud pathetic rethorics. The silent shiftings towards embracing Islam more and more and tailoring our own homes and culture to bring them in line with more and more of Islam's rules and demands, is the far more lethal poison, and is much more difficult to rally support against.

I assume none of the victims' families and friends care to visit this or other forums currently, they have other things on their minds. None of what is written here will ever come to their attention, so all your condolences are in vain. Maybe you feel self-relieved for some reason I cannot understand, but your concern and empathy would have been better invested when investing it in advance into honest and straight confrontation of the always-appeasing Islamophiles and lobbyists and the political lunatics leading us deeper and deeper into a mess we hardly will escape from anymore. Thats why quite some of what is being given in condolences here, is hypocritical. The argument that "now is not the right time to talk" about certain politically unwanted arguments, is pointless. It seems it never is the right time for that.

But if not even in the wake of strikes like this - WHEN THEN...? Some fool on radio an hour ago already issued a statement once again that he fears that this undiscriminatory mass murder could increase discriminatory views against Muslims in Europe. Nice hierarchy of priorities there, man. Honestly said I think there are far more urgent issues to be solved than the precious sentiments of Muslims not wanting their faith beeing identified as the cause of bloodthirsty evil.

Its an undeclared war being waged against us. It does not matter whether we want it to be there or not. Its there.

Oh, I'm wrong there. It HAS been declared for sure. IS and others repeatedly said they would strike us in our own homes and countries. It IS a declared war.

[Skybird]

http://i.imgur.com/eKM2bOb.jpg

:roll:
I'm no fan of Trump, not at all, but that you think you must comment that statement with that smiley says more about yourself than the quote says something negative about Trump. :nope:

[Oberon]

Oh, I'm wrong there. It HAS been declared for sure. IS and others repeatedly said they would strike us in our own homes and countries. It IS a declared war.

Indeed, we are at war and we should expect casualties.

Europe is hardly a stranger to terrorism:

http://www.macleans.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/MacBlog_terrorist.jpg

We've killed plenty of them, it just doesn't feature in the media like it does when they kill us. I wonder how many Daesh militants were killed in Syria by Allied airstrikes just over the past month? Probably a lot more than 34.

[Skybird]

Just in : there is a related emergency-evacuation going on in the nuclear reactor at Tihange, 70 km from Aachen.

They have found photos in past days indicating that some leading staff of Beligian nuclear reactors, which are not guarded by any useful means, was targeted by ISIL, probbaly to get access to the installations.

[Rockstar]

Sure it may be difficult to pin point the change as it happens. Unfortunately when people today try too, all the arm chair professors of psychiatry start chirping and accuse them of having some kind of phobia or bent towards nazism.

But if you ask me one need only look at world history to see what an uncontrolled flood of a foreign people, no matter how well intentioned, welcomed or not, will eventually do to anothers nations borders and culture.

[Oberon]

I'm no fan of Trump, not at all, but that you think you must comment that statement with that smiley says more about yourself than the quote says something negative about Trump. :nope:

Oh, such strong words, I am mortally wounded.

I roll my eyes that Trump should choose to take this opportunity to try and score political points.

[Oberon]

Just in : there is a related emergency-evacuation going on in the nuclear reactor at Tihange, 70 km from Aachen.

They have found photos in past days indicating that some leading staff of Beligian nuclear reactors, which are not guarded by any useful means, was targeted by ISIL, probbaly to get access to the installations.

Makes sense, it's a high value target, and would cause massive amounts of terror if a terrorist so much as sneezed near it. Probably a false alarm though, but never hurts to be careful.

[Tchocky]

That's unsettling. 50km down the river.

[Skybird]

Indeed, we are at war and we should expect casualties.

Europe is hardly a stranger to terrorism:



We've killed plenty of them, it just doesn't feature in the media like it does when they kill us. I wonder how many Daesh militants were killed in Syria by Allied airstrikes just over the past month? Probably a lot more than 34.
So what...???

Is that really all you can offer here - counting numbers no matter how they came to be...??? You mix victims and perpetrators, intentional mass murder and collateral death. Is this really all you once again come up with, by reflex...???

Man, come to your senses, its really getting disgusting. What is next? Accusing Europe of the crusades once again, and that it dared to once wanting to defend Christians lands from Muslim invasions? Or reminding us that 300 years ago our ancestors still were where they were 300 years ago?

:nope: :nope: :nope:

[Oberon]

That's unsettling. 50km down the river.

Probably just a scare, everywhere is going to be jumpy after an attack like this. Besides, it takes a lot to damage a nuclear reactor to the point that it would leak dangerous levels of radiation into the surrounding area. Worse case scenario a suicide bomber would just cause the thing to SCRAM and shut down for a few weeks until they repaired it.

[Skybird]

Oh, such strong words, I am mortally wounded.

I roll my eyes that Trump should choose to take this opportunity to try and score political points.
Not lethally wounded yo7u are. But morally. Once again.

[Oberon]

So what...???

Is that really all you can offer here - counting numbers no matter how they came to be...??? You mix victims and perpetrators, intentional mass murder and collateral death. Is this really all you once again come up with, by reflex...???

Man, come to your senses, its really getting disgusting. What is next? Accusing Europe of the crusades once again, and that it dared to once wanting to defend Christians lands from Muslim invasions? Or reminding us that 300 years ago our ancestors still were where they were 300 years ago?

:nope: :nope: :nope:

We are at war, you said so yourself. We bomb them, and they suicide bomb us. Just because Daesh aren't driving tanks across western europe doesn't make it any more or less a war. Have we become so arrogant to think that wars only happen to other people? :hmmm:

[Oberon]

Not lethally wounded yo7u are. But morally. Once again.

You're the one making a big deal out of an emoticon. :salute:

[Oberon]

An update regarding the NPP:

https://twitter.com/Electrabel/status/712266905428619265

no evacuation . Employees that are not strictly necessary for safe operation be asked to leave the site.

[Jimbuna]

BBC now have the death toll at 31.

I really do appreciate how emotive a subject this is but can we all refrain from having a pop at each other please?

Debate and disagree by all means but try to maintain an acceptable level of respect for one another.

[AVGWarhawk]

Your world looks very different when this nonsense comes knocking at your front door.

Let's hope this is one isolated incident.

[Dmitry Markov]

My condolences to all who suffered.

I write such words too often this days (

[ikalugin]

Even though I would find Germany being over run by totalitarian Islamic theocracy most amusing, I don't find it to be likely in the near future. If only due to the natural reactionary movements.

[Nippelspanner]

Right-wing fears, I don't know. It's difficult to point out a growing change in culture and demographics without being attacked as xenophobic. I wonder Massasoit had critics to his immigration policies?
You spelled "impossible" wrong there, Neal. :03:

[Betonov]

I never called anyone that gave a reasonable rhetoric in change of culture and demographics a xenophobe. Hell, we had such a talk today at the cafe and I was one of the supporters that we need to deal with some people a lot more harshly.

But such are in short supply, it's the usual spew of biased hatred and unsupported facts to rile up the emotion of the unwashed masses that in the end of the day sounds the same as anti-west rhetoric of the islamist or anti-jew rhetoric of the nazis.

I wanted to stay out of this, but silence can too often be viewed as a victory to some lesser minds.

[Nippelspanner]

Even though I would find Germany being over run by totalitarian Islamic theocracy most amusing...
What would be so amusing about it?

[BossMark]

bloody chickens, the gutless bastards should try and have a ago at something that will fight back.

My deepest condolences to all those involved.

[Nippelspanner]

I hope they blow up a damn nuclear power plant and thousands die in Europe.
We do deserve so.

1. We still rely on nuclear power, despite what history taught us.
2. If we don't even protect these installations while Europe is flooded by terrorists, so be it.

Make it go boom and let's see what all the Gutmenschen have to say then.

[mapuc]

Have heard some politicians from Europe saying - We are at war.

Yes we are at war, NOT against Islam, but against Radical Islam and their followers/supporters

Markus

[mapuc]

I hope they blow up a damn nuclear power plant and thousands die in Europe.
We do deserve so.

1. We still rely on nuclear power, despite what history taught us.
2. If we don't even protect these installations while Europe is flooded by terrorists, so be it.

Make it go boom and let's see what all the Gutmenschen have to say then.

I myself hope this will not happen

These "Gutmenschen" will not attack radical Islam, they will point there fingers against those who has made statement against Islam/Radical Islam, saying

"This is all your fault"

Markus

[Oberon]

I hope they blow up a damn nuclear power plant and thousands die in Europe.

:hmmm:

[Nippelspanner]

:hmmm:
What's wrong with that?
We don't seem to mind, do we?

That happens when you let the religion of peace grow.
Oh right, it isn't related to religion, sorry, I keep forgetting that.

All good then! :up: