The all purpose terrorism thread featuring plenty of allah akbar

[mapuc]

I think it would be a dangerous step to enter into a war on Islam, and quite frankly I think it would be non-sensical, like most of these other 'Wars on x' blanket statements that we've had over the years, 'The War on Terror', 'The War on Drugs', 'The War on Christmas' and so on.
We should be vigilent against extremism, in any form, and push back against terrorism, by denying the terrorists the satisfaction of seeing their goals achieved.
Sadly, I don't believe that any of what I've just said will actually happen.
So buckle up, because things are going to get dark.

Oh I read it and I say the same I'm not at war against a Muslim or the entire Muslim world I support the war against the radical Islamic terrorist and other radical terrorist or groups.

I have some thoughts about the other side-The Islamists their followers and the other ordinary Muslims
We(I) are telling some of our friends we are not at war against Islam, but against these radical Muslim

What about These Radical Muslims ? How many in percentage of the ordinary Muslims have they convinced that they are at war against us ?

On thing is that some of us refuse to believe some of our own radical people who say we are at war against Islam-What about the Islamic world. what do we know from their viewpoint.


Markus

[Oberon]

What about These Radical Muslims ? How many in percentage of the ordinary Muslims have they convinced that they are at war against us ?

On thing is that some of us refuse to believe some of our own radical people who say we are at war against Islam-What about the Islamic world. what do we know from their viewpoint.

Markus

That's a trickier one, I imagine that in many western countries the percentage is smaller than it would be in places such as Afghanistan or Iran. Obviously though there are still a not insignificant percentage who do believe that there is a war between Islam and the west, because if there wasn't then we wouldn't have any terrorist attacks in the west.
There's also the silent percentage who believe that such a war is happening but are not radicalised to the point of willing to become soldiers in it. I'd say that out of the whole of Islam, it's in double figures but probably no greater than in the teens, and out of that the actual number who are willing to be foot-soldiers in the aforementioned war probably just reaches double figures.
Obviously though that will vary depending on who you ask, I'm just taking a guess here and probably someone will be along shortly to say that it's all much worse than that, etc. :03:

[Nippelspanner]

For those who don't know Paul Joseph Watson yet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwp4znSQ3WM

Fits perfectly into this thread and I couldn't agree with him more.

[mapuc]

This is a story from a not controlled media(outside the mainstream media)

In the mainstream media the Swedish people have been told there have been riots in Växjö in the part where the mostly lives immigrants and refugees.

Sometime you need to go outside the mainstream to get a more detailed story

In a story from such a source it was told, it was the immigrants who had created these riots and a some was arrested. One of them was a young Muslim man, for having fired a rocket(those we use at New years eve) against a police woman.

His excuse-He didn't know it was against the law to do such a thing.

Markus

[August]

One of them was a young Muslim man, for having fired a rocket(those we use at New years eve) against a police woman.

His excuse-He didn't know it was against the law to do such a thing.

Markus

I wonder what shooting a rocket at a cop would have got him if he tried that in his home country? Probably a bullet in return.

[mapuc]

Found this interesting article on BBC homepage

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36912541

The FLNC warned of a "determined response, without any qualms" for any jihadist attack in Corsica, in a message to the Corse Matin newspaper

Wonder if there more of those "groups" in France and other European countries ?

Markus

[Betonov]

Found this interesting article on BBC homepage

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36912541



These guys are too good to be true.
Ready to kick ass but still differentiate between terrorist and Ahmed selling kebab :)

Shame about their history with dead cops, it means that the law enforcement will be less inclined to look away, vigilantism is illegal :nope:

[Wamiduku]

In the mainstream media the Swedish people have been told there have been riots in Växjö in the part where the mostly lives immigrants and refugees.
Happens all the time. In Växjö, riots is muslim areas is the new normal. Most of this never reaches national press, but short articles appear in the local Växjö press.

The no-go-zone in Växjö is named "Araby". Since "by" means "village", Araby is a funny name for an Arab enclave.

Some examples of what goes down in Araby, from the local Växjö newspaper:
Police attacked with rockets and green laser (http://www.smp.se/vaxjo/polisen-beskjuten-med-raketer-och-gron-laser/)
Arson (this happens every summer week) (http://www.smp.se/nyheter/bildack-brann-pa-araby/)
Carbecue (=setting cars on fire) season is here - 8 cars damaged (http://www.smp.se/nyheter/larm-om-brand-i-flera-bilar/)
40 people attack police with stones (http://www.smp.se/vaxjo/17-aring-anhallen-for-valdsamt-upplopp/)

This one was mentioned in national press: 11 cars torched (http://www.expressen.se/kvallsposten/elva-bilar-forstorda-i-brand-vi-ar-oroliga/)

Växjö is a town with a population 61000, so these days also smaller places like Växjö, Borås, Gislaved etc have problems with Middle East/North Africa immigrants attacking the country that pays their social benefits.

Massive riots in Uppsala (north of Stockholm) a few weeks ago caused a death in a fire, since the fire brigade had to wait for armed escort to arrive (due to attacks against fire fighters) before they could do their job: http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/stenkastning-hindrade-insats--en-dog-i-brand/

This is the new Sweden. Only 10 years ago, this was a different country.

http://www.svtstatic.se/image-cms/svtse/1463401001/svts/article8554438.svt/alternates/extralarge/nkpg1-jpg

[Nippelspanner]

Ben Shapiro: The Myth of the Tiny Radical Muslim Minority (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7TAAw3oQvg)

[mapuc]

I didn't want to open a new thread when its about radical Islamic, as we already have a thread about this subject.

This is again Naser Khader(Muslim and from Syria), a Danish Politicians who has postet a debate on Berlingske.dk. After I had read what he wrote I knew I had to share it with you. You may disagree og agree in his statement.

(Have used google translate, I hope nevertheless you can get essential of the story)

"One more time for Prince Knud(a Danish proverb) and Jens Rohde( Another Danish politician)

Naser Khader: Show me one example from history where bloodthirsty psychopaths come to their senses after they have had dialogue coffee with those who know better. I will not give up the fight for Islam's soul just to be politically correct.

On the field came Jens Rohde with a total acquittal of Islam for the sake of terror (Chronicle Holy War (I & II) here in the newspaper 29 and 30 July). Again-again we see a non-Muslim, who have not familiarized themselves with Islam, wise on Islam and as an elephant in a glass house trample into the internal struggle of values that I and other reform-Muslims trying to get started

I must every day give ear to similar naive comments from people who think we can solve all the world's problems by simply drinking dialog coffee, talking the crazy to reason or even worse, as Jens Rohde says that we should not talk about terror, as something that has to do with Islam. It is naive and daft

In Jens Rohde long investigation, he points several times on the story as proof that all wars since in one degree or another have a religious character. As if that in itself should acquit Islam's importance for today's terror. And show me otherwise one example from history where bloodthirsty psychopaths come to their senses after they have had dialogue coffee with those who know better.

Once shared Rohde otherwise my views on the relationship between Islam and terror, but then he set out to understand the bigger picture, and now he has become a lot smarter. these are the words by Jens Rohde (indeed), while he calls for "not listening to the religious rhetoric 'in trying to understand the terror being.

There is no limit to how destructive a point of view, I think it is. That said, it's unoriginal arguments he brings on the field. I am almost as familiar with the holy warriors in history, as Jens Rohde is, and I know that there have been religious motifs on the field before IS. But think that we just had to hear the story about the thousand year old crusade again. It's almost comical if it weren't so tragic, because it derails the debate on how to solve today's scourge of Islamism. The ideologies that Jens Rohde serves up in his argument, for the most part long since been discarded because they proved inept.

In our time it is Islamic State Islamist ideology that spread death, destruction, terror and division in our society and many other places in the world - not least in their self-styled caliphate that would rather be called Hell on Earth. While we are debating whether religion plays a role, proclaims jihadists continue and blithely their propaganda with the result that young people from around the world, including Denmark, continue to arise under their black flags and spreading death among others in European cities brutally.

There was a lot more, but I thought this was enough

Markus

[Gerald]

Happens all the time. In Växjö, riots is muslim areas is the new normal. Most of this never reaches national press, but short articles appear in the local Växjö press.

The no-go-zone in Växjö is named "Araby". Since "by" means "village", Araby is a funny name for an Arab enclave.

Some examples of what goes down in Araby, from the local Växjö newspaper:
Police attacked with rockets and green laser (http://www.smp.se/vaxjo/polisen-beskjuten-med-raketer-och-gron-laser/)
Arson (this happens every summer week) (http://www.smp.se/nyheter/bildack-brann-pa-araby/)
Carbecue (=setting cars on fire) season is here - 8 cars damaged (http://www.smp.se/nyheter/larm-om-brand-i-flera-bilar/)
40 people attack police with stones (http://www.smp.se/vaxjo/17-aring-anhallen-for-valdsamt-upplopp/)

This one was mentioned in national press: 11 cars torched (http://www.expressen.se/kvallsposten/elva-bilar-forstorda-i-brand-vi-ar-oroliga/)

Växjö is a town with a population 61000, so these days also smaller places like Växjö, Borås, Gislaved etc have problems with Middle East/North Africa immigrants attacking the country that pays their social benefits.

Massive riots in Uppsala (north of Stockholm) a few weeks ago caused a death in a fire, since the fire brigade had to wait for armed escort to arrive (due to attacks against fire fighters) before they could do their job: http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/stenkastning-hindrade-insats--en-dog-i-brand/

This is the new Sweden. Only 10 years ago, this was a different country.

http://www.svtstatic.se/image-cms/svtse/1463401001/svts/article8554438.svt/alternates/extralarge/nkpg1-jpg Well,well,Sweden is changing more than ten years ago, precisely because of that society with its infra- structure, not built to accommodate people in the scope, not because we do not want to help the refugees from violence-torn areas of the world, but it must be human to be able to help, otherwise it is not fair to those who will, there is for example no place in schools, housing, employment agency, has no time or very little time to help those new to arrive, municipality officer working on his knees to catch the disburse aid money into those new arrivals, medical care is hard strained, the police are facing new information which was not previously that such recruitment of young men and women that wan't to die for iS or other factions, that handles National police,and not police in every county, even if they're with and cooperate, but we'll see what the politicians say and want, unfortunately, the political situation is quite strained since the current government has little confidence, but what currently applies is that Sweden has closed its door for refugees 99 percent or so .... to be continued.

[Wamiduku]

Well,well,Sweden is changing more than ten years ago, precisely because of that society with its infra- structure, not built to accommodate people in the scope,

Yes, capacity is a problem, but the muslims can't use that as an excuse to attack the people that let them in to their country and give them free food, housing and medical care.

The real problem is MENA (Middle-East/North African) culture. No matter how large the capacity would have been, MENA culture would still be MENA culture, with all its arson, attacks on ambulance personnel etc. Since I made my last post there have been more riots, for example in Borlänge (population 41000).

Politicians blame all this on unemployment and bad economy, but you never see unemployed, impoverished ethnic Swedes attack fire fighters and rescue personnel.

[Nippelspanner]

...but the muslims can't use that as an excuse to attack the people that let them in to their country and give them free food, housing and medical care.
And they don't even have to.
Retarded leftists all across Europe are doing that for them, while a lot of our guests enrich our culture with sexual harassment, rape, murder, theft, assault, illegal prostitution of minors, etc. etc. etc.

Diversity! :yeah:

[Von Due]

And they don't even have to.
Retarded leftists all across Europe are doing that for them, while a lot of our guests enrich our culture with sexual harassment, rape, murder, theft, assault, illegal prostitution of minors, etc. etc. etc.

Diversity! :yeah:

Now, just to make it clear: Are you saying that sexual harrassment, rape, murder, theft, assault and illegal prostetution of minors is unknown in a shall we say, clean and pure western world? Is that what you are saying? If not, if you can agree that
-sexual harrassment
-rape
-murder
-theft
-assault
are all well known and have been fairly common occurances pretty much everywhere we humans have build civilizations, including every single country in Europe since day one up to today, then can you explain how the word enrich that you use fits into reality?

I call it. You are indeed working overtime to paint a picture of a world that never existed, a clean, pure western culture where no nasty muslim existed where men and women lived together in perfect harmony, where noone stole, where none murdered. It's a bluff. This culture has never existed. Not anywhere. Not once.

[Wamiduku]

Now, just to make it clear: Are you saying that sexual harrassment, rape, murder, theft, assault and illegal prostetution of minors is unknown in a shall we say, clean and pure western world?

Nobody said that. You're thinking binary: either there's crime or there isn't. That's ridiculous hogwash; there can be lots of crime or there can be little of it.

The last time we where allowed to see rape statistics per ethnicity in Sweden was 1996 (http://www.pdf-archive.com/2011/05/08/br-1996-2-invandrares-och-invandrares-barns-brottslighet-1/). After that, it was classified and guess what that means.

Here's a screenie from the PDF in the link. You'll find rapes in the second column ("Våldtäkt"):

http://i.imgur.com/0Jtjdat.jpg

See the "little" difference between the Arabs and the rest?

More numbers, this time from Norway:


A report released by the (Oslo) police on Wednesday states that all assault rapes during last year were committed by men with a non-Western origin.
Link: http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/all_rapes_in_oslo_by_foreigners_police/P20/

I call it. You are indeed working overtime to paint a picture of a world that never existed,

Well, then let's use official statistics (http://statistik.bra.se/solwebb/action/index) to paint a graph for you. This is how the number of rapes/100000 inhabitants has changed over the last 20 years in Sweden:

http://forumbilder.se/FANE1/rapstat.png

Painting clear enough for you?

Note that I have both references and official numbers to back up every word I write. Von Due has neither.

[Von Due]

2 things:

Arab =/= muslim. Not all arabs are muslims, and not all muslims are arabs. We are talking about Islam on one hand, and arabs on the other, then mix them all together.

Note in your statistics, the Iranians are in at 2. Ok so Iranians are not arabs but let's continue. Also note in your statistics, the Rumanians/Bulgarians are in at 3.6. The biggest religion by far in these 2 latter countries is not Islam, not are they arabs.

I am not pretending there are no issues with immigrants but I will not pretend these issues are unique to muslim immigrants, or arabs. This is my point.

There are issues, and they need to be sorted out but if we keep pretending it's a black and white world with simple, clear cut lines between who's good and who's bad, if we keep twisting reality with nonsense like arabs = muslims, when we will miss the targets and not find any solutions. That is my main point.

Last: My post was about the wording of Nipplespanner's post. I did not write his post. I asked for him to clear up exactly what it is he means by "enrich our culture" and that line of though.

[Gerald]

We should not look blind us to the statistics it can be misleading if you do not have good background knowledge, it happens in the context of multi-cultural groups meet is that of course it could be the dark number that is not recognized by the police, and hence it should not be there perceived as only for large groups coming to a new country, is the culprit.

[Nippelspanner]

Nobody said that. You're thinking binary: either there's crime or there isn't. That's ridiculous hogwash; there can be lots of crime or there can be little of it.
Sshhh, no reason here, you evil Islamophobe! :)

Last: My post was about the wording of Nipplespanner's post. I did not write his post. I asked for him to clear up exactly what it is he means by "enrich our culture" and that line of though.
I can see where you're coming from, so let me clear it up: No.
With not a single word I meant to say any of these things were unknown to western civilization, yet that is what many of them bring us after all!
However, the crime rates among, for example, north-African Muslims are severely high among the 15-30 year old males, every neutral statistic you look up will support what I just said and if necessary,
I can provide a few but really, just google it please, if in doubt. So, in some ways they indeed enrich our criminal culture.
We had no "honor killings", because we don't belong to some sub-humanistic cave-men culture that raised us this way.
Or what about hitting a woman with acid for some reasons? Juicy diversity!

So my wording wasn't even that off.
Additionally, the naturalness behind these things are also something quite new here.
They are just women, of course you grope and molest them, and if you're in a group, why not rape her? *shrug*

Show me how this is, or was, common, or rather a thing in general, in Europe - otherwise stop nitpicking over my phrasing.

Edit: I am not pretending there are no issues with immigrants but I will not pretend these issues are unique to muslim immigrants, or arabs. This is my point.
Nobody said crime or problems are exclusive to Islam. However, if you compare the cultures in question, you can't fail to notice something very obvious, can you?
On a sinking ship, I'd rather take care of the big leak first, rather than just shutting some broken valves off, if you catch my analogy.

[Mittelwaechter]

So let's stay with you own analogy.

Why is your ship sinking by a big leak you have to care for?
Is it due to an allied aircraft bombing your hull?
Why is this allied aircraft bombing your hull?
Is it because you declared war on the allies and kill their families?

Shooting the aircraft may be some sort of “taking care for the big leaks”.
But it`s not a very promising way to stop big leaks from showing up.

[Nippelspanner]

So let's stay with you own analogy.

Why is your ship sinking by a big leak you have to care for?
Is it due to an allied aircraft bombing your hull?
Why is this allied aircraft bombing your hull?
Is it because you declared war on the allies and kill their families?

Shooting the aircraft may be some sort of “taking care for the big leaks”.
But it`s not a very promising way to stop big leaks from showing up.
What the...!?
We had our Resident-Nazi-Holocaust-Denier on Subsim, now we have a Terrorist-Apologist who is throwing around with straw-men like a machine gun with lead.

In all honesty, I think you are a complete nutcase, a lunatic.
Your drivel is unbearable, you don't make any sense, you argue to 99% with made up straw-men, evading any honest debate completely.
You don't support any of your completely arbitrary claims and you don't pay attention to any evidence or facts provided - they are all made up by the controlled media anyways I guess.
You ignore them and hit your head against the keyboard, at least that's what your responses sound like.

Shame on you for even remotely defending and/or justifying the actions of all these terrorists.
Shame on you for insulting the thousands of victims around the globe over decades now.
Go tell the relatives of these people here, how these attacks were their fault:

https://i1.wp.com/s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/BN-OX740_0714Ni_GR_20160714185719.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/2CmoinQ.jpg

I'm always open for a debate, I don't need anyone to agree with my opinions or ideas, however, I won't tolerate some nut-job oxygen thief insulting the victims, dead or alive, of this ideology.
Welcome to my ignore list!

[Von Due]

I have no doubt the crime rate is higher for certain crimes among 15-30 years old immigrants from say, North African countries. The question is why and this is one point I don't think we see eye to eye on.

It is commonplace for employers here in Norway to automatically throw job applications in the dustbin if the name sounds "foreign". The unemployment rate among young immigrants from especially African countries is noticably higher than for any other group. These 2 are not unrelated.

1 quarter 2016:
Among non immigrants: 2.4% unemployed.
Nordic immigrants: 3.4
Rest of Western Europe: 4.6
North America + Oceania: 3.9
Eastern Europe (EU): 10
African countries: 12.1

https://ssb.no/arbeid-og-lonn/statistikker/innvarbl

This is not irrelevant in the slightest when we talk about crimes like theft, burglary, drug related crimes, in short crimes that don't require a lot of network building and resources, that "offer" quick cash. For organized crime, eastern Europe poses a greater threat at least here. Neither is it irrelevant if we look at what future prospect young people from these countries have, and more importantly what they percieve they have. You want to know why they turn to crimes like the ones I mentioned, then look at these numbers.

Asia, including the middle east, weights in at 8, somewhere in the middle. It reflects in the crime statistics for the same crimes.

You want to fight these crimes, then pointing at their religion is nothing but a red herring.

Furthermore, here we talk about people from North Africa and Africa in general. We are not talking about religion now. I have said and I will repeat myself here: We are dealing with regional/national issues. Each nationality brings its own set of issues. Some crime related, others not. No size fits all.

We are also talking about cultures. Plural. The culture in say, Tunisia is not the same as in say, Morocco, or in the middle east, where culture is as diverse as any other place. Theft part of "their culture"? In some muslim countries, they still chop off the hand of thieves. In others, they jail them. Like we do. In certain central African countries, jungle justice is very much alive where thieves are lynched by mobs, including being burnt alive. Not what I would call accepting to thievery. Murderers are executed in Saudi Arabia as they are in the US and China.

As for rape: India, which is not a north African country, nor a muslim country and certainly not an arab country, is plagued by rape and an acceptance for it by leading figures. Child prostitution is a major problem in buddhist countries like Thailand, where western men in particular are the main "customers". There are organizations in the west lobbying for legalization of paedophilia.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/10948796/Paedophilia-is-natural-and-normal-for-males.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ban-lifted-on-pro-paedophilia-group-in-the-netherlands-8559000.html
and more. Look up NAMBLA if you need more reason to be upset.

Honour killings were not unknown to the Romans although in modern times it is indeed true that it is something more connected to countries in the middle east, and in India where people to this day are sometimes hacked to death for marrying someone of the wrong caste.

It is true that honour killings are more of an issue among immigrants from countries in the middle east and north africa, and again India and Pakistan, but it is not entirely unknown in Europe either, although not as common nowadays.
http://hbv-awareness.com/regions/

[Nippelspanner]

I have no doubt the crime rate is higher for certain crimes among 15-30 years old immigrants from say, North African countries. The question is why and this is one point I don't think we see eye to eye on.
[...]
You want to fight these crimes, then pointing at their religion is nothing but a red herring.
I start to wonder if I could make my life easier by creating a little text file with standard responses - after all I had to repeat myself so often in this thread, it starts to get annoying.

I'm not pointing at their religion alone, I am pointing at their ideology, their culture, their way of life - which ultimately is what it is due to Islam.
I said over and over again that Islam is much more than just some religion.

The problem is the severely negative influence Islam had on the absolute most countries it is in. And the more Islam dominates a country, the worse it gets.

- From the 25 most dangerous countries in the world, nearly all of them are predominantly Muslim countries.
- 9 of 10 Worst Countries for Persecution of Christians Have 50% or Greater Muslim Populations.

Surely, Islam can't have anything to do with any of this - religion of peace after all.


Just one statistic to put into picture what I'm talking about:
http://i.imgur.com/oZpsU73.png

So peaceful, so advanced, so tolerant.
Allahu Akbar! :yeah:

[Von Due]

1) 85% in the survey believe women should obey men.
http://scottjhiggins.com/52-of-the-worlds-evangelical-leaders-believe-a-wife-must-always-obey-her-husband/#.V6Kbm7iLTIU
http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/christian-marriage-why-my-wife-should-obey-me/
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Feminism/everything.htm
True, 85% is a higher percentage but it is not insignificant in other cultures. You can hear the same idea coming from both men and women here in Norway, from "modern folks". Not 85% but still plenty. The obediant wife is very much an ideal to some here which is one reason you will find recommendations for finding Asian wives, because they quote "know their place".

2) 68% think Sharia should be law. Roughly 2/3 then. That is both a high number and something that needs to be addressed but how that is related to crimes like rape, theft and murder is beyond me. It is also beyond me why 1/3 of more than 1.6 billion people should be silenced and thrown in with a group they don't agree with. People who have the same religion, the same culture and who disagree on that topic.

3) Death for adultry 46% Less than half but still, I agree here. This one is highly problematic. Interesting though that reportedly, Sharia demands death for adultry and 68% want sharia laws but "only" 46% want more than a sharia light edition. Makes you wonder what sharia means then, doesn't it?

4) Death for leaving Islam 36% and declining. In the 19th century it was a higher percentage, in some areas near 100%, now that number has been on the decline for roughly 100-200 years. Still no excuse for it but clearly one can not think this is an eternal truth in islam that noone there is challenging.

What I can't see in that result is how the responses are distributed among the various countries. That would have been interesting. Afghanistan is particularely interesting as there are relatively "new" reports (from not further back than the 1950's and 1960's) of greater equality of opportunities and rights. Men and women alike in the same college/university classrooms, headscarves and no headscarves side by side. During the 60's, a powerstruggle emerged between pro-Soviet and nationalist elements, leading to the civil war where religious groups, including mujaheddin, joined in later. Thevery much secularly rooted civil war in turn leading to the Soviet invasion, and the power vaccuum after the Soviets went back home. The bombed out mess that is today's Afghanistan is fairly well documented and it is a country where its past is pretty much cut off in the history books today. One thing you can count on is, it's heaven for extremism to grow.
Point of this? How do you think the recent history of Afghanistan, its destruction, reflects in how people there think of extreme views? How much of that would you say is islam and not the never-ceasing war that has been going on there for about 50 years now with ever new fighting sides joining in? Look at modern day Iraq. Look at Iraq say 50 or 60 years ago. Tell me it's the same country. Tell me it's the same cultivator of violence then as it is now. Look at these countries in the near past and tell me there hasn't been a change in "culture". Tell me there hasn't been a change in religious preaching. Iran was islamic before their revolution. After the revolution it was unrecognizable, many fled and even more want none of it.

I don't have an issue with the problems that are in Islam. I have an issue with how you present the present day situation as something that has always been and something that is the same everywhere. I have an issue with your one sidedness, your simple mindedness. You keep talking about "their" culture. In one sentence it's the North Africans, the next it's all muslims, as if they all share the same culture. You keep saying that in the case of Islam then religion = culture. In some areas they are the same but in no way are they the same in every field. I mentioned it before. Until what 10 years ago, female genital mutilation was presented here in Europe as a "muslim thing". It was pretty much everywhere, in every news outlet and every pub where people talk. Well lo and behold, it's not a "muslim" thing. It's a problem in a few African countries, among muslims and non muslims there alike. It goes way back to the older traditions. And then happened the European colonialism. There you have a good source for growing extremism. If you occupy a country, you will not be met with greetings and boxes of chocolate. On the other hand, there was no surprise that central Africa and beyond, all the way to Kenya, saw murder cults popping up targeting Europeans and anyone else they saw as a threat to themselves.

[Jimbuna]

Warning note:

Come on now people, there are better ways to convey ones opinions and debate the subject without the need to resort to name calling and insults.

[HunterICX]

Oh Germany!

http://www.tz.de/muenchen/amoklauf-muenchen-aktuell-entwicklungen-news-ticker-ab-29-juli-zr-6620521.html

Wegen Beleidigung des Amokläufers: Anwohner angezeigt

Took a while to find english source, couldn't find any but the summary I did found below seems to be accurate according to my broken knowledge of the German Language (ask Schroeder)


Charges filed against the witness of the Munich Massacre who insulted the gunman from his balcony

When he saw the gunman of Munich standing on the roof of the parking deck, he cursed loudly at him. Now charges have been filed against the 57 y.o. for insult.
There were many witnesses during the shooting spree in Munich, amongst them was the construction worker Thomas Salbey. The 57 y.o. saw the gunman standing on the roof of a parking deck from his balcony. He even tried to stop him by throwing a beer bottle at him.
After the massacre, Salbey gave several interviews to the press, part of his statements were supported by video recordings. Because he cursed at the shooter, charges have been filed against him, according to Munich's newspaper "tz".
The prosecution office confirms the charges
The charges have been confirmed by Florin Weinzierl, speaker for the Prosecution Office Nr. I of Munich. It is still unclear who was responsible for filing the charges. Since the cursing happened after the killing spree started, they didn't have any influence on the outcome, explains Weinzierl.
The case is going to be considered as "insults for the disadvantage of a deceased". The trial is expected to be completed soon.
Translation source: https://voat.co/v/European/comments/1209979

http://i.imgur.com/iZ8gjgu.gif

[Von Due]

Warning note:

Come on now people, there are better ways to convey ones opinions and debate the subject without the need to resort to name calling and insults.

Note taken :salute: and apologies to Nipplespanner for me getting a bit carried away.

Oh Germany!

http://www.tz.de/muenchen/amoklauf-muenchen-aktuell-entwicklungen-news-ticker-ab-29-juli-zr-6620521.html

Wegen Beleidigung des Amokläufers: Anwohner angezeigt

Took me a while to find english source, couldn't find any but the summary below seems to be accurate according to my broken knowledge of the German Language (ask Schroeder)

Translation source: https://voat.co/v/European/comments/1209979

http://i.imgur.com/iZ8gjgu.gif

Ok, that is pretty absurd :/\\!!

[Schroeder]

Oh Germany!

http://i.imgur.com/iZ8gjgu.gif
Wir schaffen das!:dead:

[Betonov]

Oh god Germany, sell Angela to a Siberian coal mine and get the Hochenzollers back in :/\\!!

[Schroeder]

Oh god Germany, sell Angela to a Siberian coal mine and get the Hochenzollers back in :/\\!!
We tried to but we couldn't pay them enough to take her.:/\\!!

[Skybird]

The charges have just been dismissed. The "person" filing them, explicitly did so by claiming that the offences have just triggered the deeds of the perpetrator in the first and provoked him to commit them, said the state attorney'S speaker, but obviously he already had committed them when he arrived on that parkhouse roof, and the verbal exchange probably bamboozled him, says the police.

Still, very stupid.

[Oberon]

The charges were probably just filed in order to provoke a reaction from the media. Nothing new there.

[Skybird]

Wir schaffen das!:dead:
Die Frage ist: was.

German equivalents to this? LINK - German text about Blackburn (http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article157445768/Muslime-geben-in-einer-britischen-Stadt-den-Ton-an.html)
Or to Marseille? Malmö?Over 10% of the population in Berlin already is Muslim, fastly growing. More than a doubling within less than one generation. When I still lived in west-Berlin, it were around 3% or less. And it gives the city troubles, troubles, and more troubles.

I fear this much more than terrorism, and said so already ten years ago. Terrorism is the last of my concerns. There is no "civilised" defence against this peaceful invasion possible. Considering enforced deportation out of Germany - a no-go in Nazi-haunted Germany, unimaginable in Germany. The East-Europeans have it right when rejecting to let even small numbers in. That way they get the smallest amount of dirt on their hands.

"One day, millions of men will leave the Southern Hemisphere to go to the Northern Hemisphere. And they will not go there as friends. Because they will go there to conquer it. And they will conquer it with their sons. The wombs of our women will give us victory." - Houari Boumedien, Algerian president, in a speech deliveered to the UN assembly in 1974.

And Merkel opened them even more doors and gates, and told them to bring their buddies with them, and told their people at home that Germany will refuse to set up any limitations. She just has ruled out any limits once again just a few days ago. And the EU now wants to soften up the term "family", so that not just family members can follow the accepted migrants, but also migrants that are not family at all but who randomly met while being underway and then formed "relations". In other words, meet a stranger, travel together, say you like each other, and you are "family" - and both, or all, can get in.

"Merkel executes Erich Honecker's late revenge against the BRD." Old joke, but a lot of truth in it. First leading Germany deeper and deeper into the Euro disaster, and deeper and deeper into "EU integration" (what a malicious euphemism), and now Islamic mass migration. Erich must chuckle in his grave. As a strategy to destroy Germany from within and even motivating most Germans to help in that and to assist in their future demise - brilliant. Erich sees it from the afterlife, and thinks: "If you see your class enemy destroying himself - do not disturb him."

In some decades, there will be far, far more than just one Blackburn, and they will be spread across most of Europe, starting in France, England, Sweden, Germany, Netherlands. And another couple of decades later, cities listed in a posting like this will not be the Muslim enclaves and strongholds, but the non-Muslim enclaves in a more or less completely Islamised Europe.

Its the perfect invasion - no defence possible without behaving bad yourself, and having the values of liberalism and humanism being turned into tools to take you hostage, to blackmail you, and to enforce your voluntary subjugation. You will be crucified even by your own non-Muslim people if you resist! Can it go any better than this?

"Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them." - Karl Popper. And that guy usually is listed as a left!

[AVGWarhawk]

"One day, millions of men will leave the Southern Hemisphere to go to the Northern Hemisphere. And they will not go there as friends. Because they will go there to conquer it. And they will conquer it with their sons. The wombs of our women will give us victory."[/B] - Houari Boumedien, Algerian president, in a speech deliveered to the UN assembly in 1974.



From my findings Houari never said this. But it was wiki so who knows.

[Skybird]

Its sometimes questioned, but the number of people doing so is so small and they always just raise the claim of doubt but never give evidence, and the occasions on which this quote is given even in literature over the past twenty years and longer is so overwhelming, that I go with probability here and say its much more likely that it is true.

Anyway, I could set up a list with many many more quotes like this from some of the most prolific Muslim scholars, leaders, potlicians of the past 50 years, who all imply the same message - from there back then, to Erdoghan today.

Hm. I think I already repeatedly gave many comparable quotes in past years, in various threads. I called it demographic warfare.

[AVGWarhawk]

Its sometimes questioned, but the number of people doing so is so small and they always just raise the claim of doubt but never give evidence, and the occasions on which this quote is given even in literature over the past twenty years and longer is so overwhelming, that I go with probability here and say its much more likely that it is true.

Anyway, I could set up a list with many many more quotes like this from some of the most prolific Muslim scholars, leaders, potlicians of the past 50 years, who all imply the same message - from there back then, to Erdoghan today.

Hm. I think I already repeatedly gave many comparable quotes in past years, in various threads. I called it demographic warfare.

Not necessary to list additional quotes. We can certainly see it is a mess and getting progressively worse.

[Gerald]

A North Carolina man was arrested Thursday on a charge of conspiring to provide material support to the Islamic State militant group by attempting to recruit people to carry out an attack in the United States, the Justice Department said.

Erick Jamal Hendricks, 35, of Charlotte, contacted another man online in the spring of 2015, who was later arrested after attempting to purchase an AK-47 from an undercover officer, according to a court complaint.

Hendricks told another unnamed person his goal was to create a sleeper cell to be trained to carry out attacks in the United States.

The complaint alleges that Hendricks said his potential targets were military members, and a woman who had organized a Prophet Mohammed cartoon-drawing contest in Garland, Texas.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-security-northcarolina-idUSKCN10F1OL

No surprise here, this happens in other parts of the western world daily in terrorist cells or other factions.

Note: Thu Aug 4, 2016 11:07am EDT

[Nippelspanner]

Its the perfect invasion - no defence possible without behaving bad yourself, and having the values of liberalism and humanism being turned into tools to take you hostage, to blackmail you, and to enforce your voluntary subjugation. You will be crucified even by your own non-Muslim people if you resist! Can it go any better than this?

"Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them." - Karl Popper. And that guy usually is listed as a left!
You said that years ago, I said that years ago, the usual suspects called us islamophobic right wingers (lol) and.... now I wonder how many of them, at least in secret, realize that these predictions had nothing to do with fear mongering or the usual right wing propaganda, but with logic and simple demographics.

Whatever, it is too late now anyways.
You can't stop what's going on, even if we would stop the intake, those who are here breed like crazy, while we don't.
The question isn't if this all will happen, only when.
I hope other countries don't make the same mistakes...

Germany and Europe survived WW2, only to go be destroyed by its own blind political correctness, infiltrated by an ideology that has but one goal. Conquer.

[Skybird]

I hope other countries don't make the same mistakes...

In vain. France, Britain, Sweden, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark...

now I wonder how many of them, at least in secret, realize that these predictions had nothing to do with fear mongering or the usual right wing propaganda, but with logic and simple demographics.Nothing can convince the sense of ideological supremacism. You could as well try to argue with a Creationist. And if the matter blows up in their face - it s not their fault, it never was and never will be, because its always the others' fault of not having believed in the ideological dogma strong enough.

Debt crisis? Make more debts! Paper money crisis? Lets inflate money volumes! EU crisis? More EU! People do not trust it? Force them! Mass migration crisis? Lets have more migrants in! Overstretched lines in whatever a conflict, matter, issue? Lets expand some more! Appeasing Erdoghan does not work? Appease him! Talks with Russia are in vain? Lets talk about it! Socialist regimes in the past all collapsed or blew up in civil wars? Install another one! And on and on and on it goes.

Der Löffel geht so lang zum Mund bis dieser schließlich bricht,
dann fällt manchem das Kotelett aus dem Gesicht.
- Ulrich Rosski -

[Nippelspanner]

I don't always agree with you, but this post is spot on, unfortunately.

By the way, I wasn't referring to European countries when I meant other countries.
The EU is doomed for a while now, no point to still hope for some miracle.

[Gerald]

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Islamic State group will probably continue to be a threat to the U.S. even after it is ousted from key strongholds in Iraq and Syria, President Barack Obama said Thursday, warning that lone-wolf believers will still be inspired to launch attacks that are harder to detect and prevent.

Well,IS is a real treat to deal with,and it gone take time to get rid of.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/politics/article/Obama-Islamic-State-likely-to-continue-to-9123650.php

Note: President Barack Obama answers a question during a news conference after attending a National Security Council Meeting on efforts to counter the Islamic State, Thursday, Aug. 4, 2016, at the Pentagon in Washington.

[Feuer Frei!]

This 'holy' war has been around for 2000 years.

Muslims against Christians.

IS isn't going anywhere.

Nor is this war.

This is only the tip of the iceberg.

Much more to come.

Stay tuned.

[Oberon]

News just in: Earth confirmed to be spherical in shape.

[Reece]

Is there life on Mars?:hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

News just in: Earth confirmed to be spherical in shape.

Aye :)

[Schroeder]

News just in: Earth confirmed to be spherical in shape.
Nah, that's just propaganda. You are just flatophobic.:stare:

[Oberon]

Nah, that's just propaganda. You are just flatophobic.:stare:

I prefer a Spheradical. :yep:

[Skybird]

German police analysis proves that the Muslim terrorists from Ansbach and Würzburg got coached, counceled, advised and supported by chat partners residing in Saudi Arabia. The German police explicitly described it as "coaching" and "counceling".

[Catfish]

^
I still wonder why the US just of all targeted Iraq and Afghanistan, after 9/11. Needed another scapegoat, because of too good relations with the Saudis?

[AndyJWest]

^
I still wonder why the US just of all targeted Iraq and Afghanistan, after 9/11. Needed another scapegoat, because of too good relations with the Saudis?

Iraq? Three-letter word beginning with 'O' had a lot to do with it (didn't Dubya say as much at least once?). As for Afghanistan, they clearly had to go for Bin Laden once it became clear that they couldn't pin it all on the Iraqis, and doing a deal with the Taliban to get him handed over would probably have led to too many questions about past links.

[Von Due]

^
I still wonder why the US just of all targeted Iraq and Afghanistan, after 9/11. Needed another scapegoat, because of too good relations with the Saudis?

Pretty much spot on. Saudi Arabia is a buffer against Iran in particular and they have oil and they haven't publicly shouted death to the USA. It is known that the Saudi Royal family has been giving in to extremist demands since 1979 which coincidentally is the year relations with Iran went south, the Saudi events in November that year, and the King's response, just aren't mentioned the way the Iranian revolution is still talked about. The Iranians kicked out the US and British oil companies, the Saudis didn't mind foreigners the same way.

In addition: Saddam was also a buffer and supported (a puppet really in the eyes of the US) until he figured he was a big boy and could stay up as long as he wanted. That's when the US dampened their enthusiasm and ultimately removed him.

[Betonov]

Good thing a buffer agaisnt a country that never attacked Europe with more than big words is a country that actively supports and breeds terrorism :/\\!!

[Von Due]

Good thing a buffer agaisnt a country that never attacked Europe with more than big words is a country that actively supports and breeds terrorism :/\\!!

Expedience is the word. And big money. There was the hostage crisis though, in Tehran that whipped up some serious anti-Iranian sentiments if the oil companies weren't miffed enough already.

Iran is a major thorn in the eyes of the US though, for their hostility towards Israel, supporting anti-Israeli organizations.

[August]

Could any Germans here please confirm or deny this article and if it's true explain why it could happen?

The Munich resident who hurled insults at shooter Ali David Sonboly as he was carrying out an attack on a shopping mall has been accused of libel, the Munich prosecutor has announced.
Thomas Salbey became an internet sensation after footage of him
hurling abuse at Sonboly, from the balcony of his fifth floor apartment
was posted on Twitter.
But while many praised Mr. Salbey for standing up to the gunman – who
aimed shots in his direction – Florian Weinzierl, a spokesman for the
Munich prosecutor, has confirmed that Mr. Salbey is to be charged with
libel for his comments. It is not known who reported Mr. Salbey to the
authorities.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b85_1470416252

[Skybird]

Could any Germans here please confirm or deny this article and if it's true explain why it could happen?



http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b85_1470416252
True, but already dealt with:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2423989&postcount=1484

There is indeed a law here that is about libel of the deceased. It initially was reported that the complaint was on grounds of that, which triggered a lot of anger, but a spokesman later said what I referred to in my earlier post. ^ Whether that was true, oir just an attempt to defuse the angry reactions to it, I cannot say.

[Skybird]

Attempted murder of two policemen in Charleroi, Belgium. A "man" (well...) attacked and injured both officers with a machete and blamed it all on Allah, at least that was what according to witnesses he had yelled. He was stopped by shots. Edit: He meanwhile moved his residency closer to Allah.

I expect to learn that this is just an isolated case, that the man acted alone, radicalised himself all of a sudden and very quickly, and had psychic problems.

Yes. Psychic problems is what its about indeed. Just in a completely different understanding than usually is implied.

Allah is said to already have complained to the authorities for having been refered to by the attacker, claiming that his wonderful Allahism is divine and thus cannot be held accountable.

[Skybird]

Ooops. The officers both were females.

Use your imagination a bit - the possibilities to now raise the most absurd of claims to protect harmless Muslim men promendading in the streets from being surprisingly met by uniformed women with authority, are endless! :D

[Oberon]

https://media.makeameme.org/created/Good-news-everyone-42fvqb.jpg

[Skybird]

Belgian authorities rate the attack in Charleroi now officially as a terror attack.

[Jimbuna]

The guy has been identified as being an Algerian

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37003146

[Nippelspanner]

German intelligence warns of IS ‘hit squads’ among refugees (http://www.politico.eu/article/german-intelligence-warns-of-is-hit-squads-among-refugees/)

You don't say!? :haha: :har:

[Skybird]

One terrorist arrested in Germany earlier this week. Another one arrested in Germany last week. Terrorist tried to be arrested in the US yesterday gets killed. Terrorists also chased in Belgium, and France in past days.

Mind the mantra: the ideology motivating them to become what they are, has nothing to do with it. Really. Believe in it, and it will be true, for Muhammad was the greatest of deceivers.

[Schroeder]

German intelligence warns of IS ‘hit squads’ among refugees (http://www.politico.eu/article/german-intelligence-warns-of-is-hit-squads-among-refugees/)

You don't say!? :haha: :har:

BS! They told us terrorists would never come in here pretending to be refugees! That would be way to dangerous for them they said!:stare:
No terrorists here, nothing to see move along.:/\\!!

[Nippelspanner]

Yeah I call BS on this too... and if, we probably just speak of regrettable and isolated incidents... right? Right? :hmmm:

At this point I sometimes catch myself thinking that maaaybeeee, a large and devastating attack with many casualties is what this country needs to wake up from its social-political-coma and start to act.
But I am unwilling to witness these kind of news actually.
And I also doubt it would change the regressive, self-destructive minds of the Gutmenschen-Plague roaming the country, sooo...

le sigh?
le sigh!

[mapuc]

Some weeks ago the Danish leader of the Danish PET=Police intelligence Service said to Danish TV and news paper there is no evidence that IS has used the refugees problems to get terrorist into Europe.

Markus

[Von Due]

Last year there were news reports (on BBC for one) of intelligence reports (US and UK intelligence together with local intelligence if I recall correctly) saying there were indications of ISIS mingling with the refugees or planning to. It would be surprising if they didn't attempt to get into Europe this way. They need to build networks, they need contacts, they need to figure out who to reach out to, who could be talked into committing the attacks, who could do the job of reaching out for them, where and how to get the neccessary gear, as well as having people there prepared to do the job themselves. This is something that is very real and something that intelligence is working on 24/7. It's not an easy job though with very strong encryption readily available to anyone who wants it, fairly sophisticated and unsophisticated but effective ways of slipping past surveilance, the lone travellers among hundreds who has his orders in memory and not on a piece of document etc.

Either the new reports there are old reports retold or there are new intelligence on new attempts to get their guys in here. Either way, again I would be very surprised if they didn't try.

[August]

BS! They told us terrorists would never come in here pretending to be refugees! That would be way to dangerous for them they said!:stare:
No terrorists here, nothing to see move along.:/\\!!

No way Hillary Clinton assures us that this would never happen!

[Jimbuna]

German intelligence warns of IS ‘hit squads’ among refugees (http://www.politico.eu/article/german-intelligence-warns-of-is-hit-squads-among-refugees/)

You don't say!? :haha: :har:


I doubt it will happen but I'd be interested in seeing what the actual numbers are suspected of being :hmm2:

[danasan]

Yeah I call BS on this too... and if, we probably just speak of regrettable and isolated incidents... right? Right? :hmmm:

At this point I sometimes catch myself thinking that maaaybeeee, a large and devastating attack with many casualties is what this country needs to wake up from its social-political-coma and start to act.
But I am unwilling to witness these kind of news actually.
And I also doubt it would change the regressive, self-destructive minds of the Gutmenschen-Plague roaming the country, sooo...

le sigh?
le sigh!

I really agree with you, generally speaking. But we can't wish to have innocent victims, can we?

[Oberon]

I really agree with you, generally speaking. But we can't wish to have innocent victims, can we?

The trouble with large scale attacks with many victims is not only does it make a country act...it also makes it over-act which in turn backfires in its face further on down the line. But I'm sure NS will get his wish one day, the law of averages dictates that one is going to get through sometime, they only have to be lucky once, we have to be lucky all the time.
C'est la guerre.

[Nippelspanner]

I really agree with you, generally speaking. But we can't wish to have innocent victims, can we?
Which is why I said it the way I did, adding that I don't want that, of course.
I tried to point out that people usually only start to act when things happen, regardless what we're talking about. This is natural, I guess, yet these days many things need pre-emptive action.
Controlling the invasion of Europe at all would have been the right thing to do, but it didn't happen and now, in consequence, anything can happen.

The trouble with large scale attacks with many victims is not only does it make a country act...it also makes it over-act which in turn backfires in its face further on down the line.
Over-reacting like what?

[Buddahaid]

Like invading Iraq after 911.

[Nippelspanner]

Like invading Iraq after 911.
As if that was some knee-jerk reaction solely due to 911, come on now.

[AndyJWest]

As if that was some knee-jerk reaction solely due to 911, come on now.

It wasn't a 'knee jerk reaction' to 911 at all. Those behind the invasion knew perfectly well that the Iraqi regime had nothing to do with 911.

[Nippelspanner]

It wasn't a 'knee jerk reaction' to 911 at all. Those behind the invasion knew perfectly well that the Iraqi regime had nothing to do with 911.
That's what I meant, in case it came across differently.

[Buddahaid]

I disagree. The public in general wanted to lash out and do something about it. The government did to and made something happen while public sentiment was favorable. No WMD found but some "towel heads" got their butts kicked and people felt better. It was a bad decision based more on emotions than logic.

[Oberon]

You can make the argument for Iraq, yes, but I also think about the First World War, the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982, the Indian attack on the Golden Temple in 1984, to give a couple of examples. In each one all the reaction has done is lead to an escalation of the crisis and resulted in a rise in casualties for both sides. In fact, in some instances terrorist attacks are designed to try and provoke an overreaction, Bin Laden in 2004 said that it is "easy for us to provoke and bait....All that we have to do is to send two mujahidin...to raise a piece of cloth on which it is written Al'Qaeda in order to make the generals race there to cause America human, economic, and political losses."
Clearly one of the goals of terrorism is to provoke a reaction and to do it on the terms of the terrorists, and thus if we wish to act counter to the interests of terrorists we need to take a much more measured and reasoned response in order to avoid fighting the war on their tune.

Here's a read:
http://politicalscience.osu.edu/faculty/jmueller/nb.pdf

[Nippelspanner]

...and thus if we wish to act counter to the interests of terrorists we need to take a much more measured and reasoned response in order to avoid fighting the war on their tune.
Like what?

[Oberon]

Like what?

Indentifying how their organisations are structured and targetting key figures, remaining vigilant but working with rather than against local Muslim communities, and remembering that in this war we still have the upper hand, our casualty rates are far far lower than theirs. For every western civilian killed by extremists there have to be at least twenty Daesh fighters killed in Syria. Unfortunately there are going to be western casualties, I think even if you stopped every refugee from entering Europe and put every Muslim citizen under surveillance there would be ones who would slip through the cracks and attack, and I think the fact that it's been seventy years since the west has had such casualties has made our acceptance of such deaths much lower, but allowing this to affect our strategic and tactical war plan would be a mistake.

To take another example, and apologies in advance for the Godwin but it's the only one I can think of to hand since it's an area I have studied fairly in depth. During the Battle of Britain the Luftwaffe had the RAF on the back foot after Adlertag, whilst it wasn't the knock-out blow that was wanted and indeed you can argue that Adlertag failed in its objectives, the rate of attriction on the RAF was high and a lot of 11 Group airfields were badly damaged, forcing squadrons to fall back closer to London and use dispersed fields. Then came the Croydon error, which lead to Berlin being visited by Bomber Command and the Luftwaffe switched from focusing on 11 Group airfields and attritioning the RAF in the air to hitting targets in London which achieved little of strategic value. Likewise the focus on the 'V' weapons later in the war which consumed precious materials and resources for little to no return all because of a desire for Vengence for losses suffered by the German people to Allied bombing raids.
I get that fear and vengence are powerful emotions, I felt them too after July 7th, when I went to London the first time after the bombings I felt uneasy whilst on the tube and every person carrying a rucksack received a second glance, particularly if they looked 'a bit foreign', but we have to try to rise above that and act with care and thought in order to inflict as much damage on our enemy as we can without making the job harder for ourselves whilst doing so.

[Skybird]

Scandal: a parliamentary request by the party Die Linke led to a reply via a secret paper that was gained by media and where the government declares that in its view and based on assessments of the German BND Erdoghan is in full cooperation and support of Muslim terror organisation and has opened Turkey as a platform from which these barbarians operate. Officially, the government has always rejected this version. Also a sensible nuance: the reply did not come from the foreign ministry, but the interior ministry.

To be precise, not the whole paper is secret, only the explosive parts in it. These parts now were gained by German state television ARD.

One wonders whether the revelation really is unwanted, and not channelled. The relations between Turkey and Germany are at an all-time low, well-deserved, and I hope they freeze even more. Almost never making a stand in public that could lead to open confrontation, this might be Merkel'S way to retaliate for the treason against Germany and NATO conducted by Erdoghan, and the constant and ongoing Turkish offences, diffamations, provocations and demands to obey the Sultan's willpower.

We can be certain that oncer again the German ambassador will be called in - who since months only get met when the Turks want to complain again and want to demand again, else gets completely shut out since the gerna parliament dared to call the Turkish genocide against the Armenians a genocide. A step that other Western parliaments already took many years ago.

And two days ago there was a media report that prominant circles in the American military do not see the nukes at Incirlik as safe and rate it as an uncalculatable risk to leave them in Turkey. They could be obtained by one of the many terror groups in the region - I would even claim they are not safe from the Turks themselves. We must push Turkey out of NATO, at all costs. A treacherous, split-tongued, double-acting ally is no ally, but a danger and a risk.

Maybe a US president Trump would do that. Which would give Putin a nice trophy, since pro-Russian groups seem to finance his campaign quite massively. Who said Russians cannot play chess? Trump would divide the West, Clinton not so much. Its clear where Putin's sympathies lies.

[eddie]

Well, it finally happened Choudary has been found guilty of inciting support for Daesh. Along with one of his aides, he could get 10 years in prison. That doesn't sound long enough to me!


http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-37098751?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook

[Jimbuna]

Well, it finally happened Choudary has been found guilty of inciting support for Daesh. Along with one of his aides, he could get 10 years in prison. That doesn't sound long enough to me!


http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-37098751?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook

Agreed, the longer the better :yep:

[Von Due]

Well, it finally happened Choudary has been found guilty of inciting support for Daesh. Along with one of his aides, he could get 10 years in prison. That doesn't sound long enough to me!


http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-37098751?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook

20 years to get him, giving him 10, that's "a bit" backwards.

[Rockstar]

Guess it goes to show no matter how tolerent, how inviting, and friendly the west is. If muslims dont want peace, there will not be any peace.

[Rockstar]

The mind of the religious zealot and terrorist

http://www.clarionproject.org/factsheets-files/islamic-state-magazine-dabiq-fifteen-breaking-the-cross.pdf

[Skybird]

Guess it goes to show no matter how tolerent, how inviting, and friendly the west is. If muslims dont want peace, there will not be any peace.
The convincing power of reason unfortunately gets overestimated by people quite often. That leads to said people trying to feed crocodiles with bare hands in a bid to pacify them and demonstrating them that they have nothing to fear.

The convincing or uniting power of "values" also gets fundamentally overestimated. History shows that nations form alliances not on the grounds of values, but shared temporary interests. The world wars are prime examples for that. Or in Jack (or John?) Kornblum's sober words: "States have no friends - states have interests".

Muhammad preached conquest and submission, not peace and coexistence. Or peace by victory and subjugating the other, so to speak: the peace of the victor. For Islam, the unlimited dominance of Islam and its rulership over - and above - any law of state and national loyalty, is non-negotiable. Seize firings are just this: seize firings demanded by temporary Muslim inferiority on the battlefield - never peace meant to last. Muhammad recommended to honour seize firings - but to negotiated them to last as short as possible only (=as needed to regroup and restrengthen). He wanted the attacks to be picked up as soon as one had gotten reinforcements and was capable to attack again.

People do not want to see this, since it strips them most of their "diplomatic tools" they believe to have to deal with this monster and civilize it. But that is a lazy self-deception to avoid taking substantial action that could come at the cost of "conflicts", "confronting". A civilised gentleman of style and manners does not do that! Better dozing on, that feels more cozy.

If one gets eaten in one yummy-yap by the big white shark while one is asleep, one at least does not feel anything.

[mapuc]

The Danish Minister of Justice Søren Pind has said it is the rightwing and their hateful rhetoric against Islam and Muslim in common that is the cause to these terror attack we have witness lately in Europe.

Markus

[Oberon]

The Danish Minister of Justice Søren Pind has said it is the rightwing and their hateful rhetoric against Islam and Muslim in common that is the cause to these terror attack we have witness lately in Europe.

Markus

That's a bit of a grasp really, even I, the Islamic-apologising PC Police Commissar™ wouldn't go as far as to say that it's all our fault.
It doesn't help matters, and only plays into their hands, but it's not the cause.

[Rockstar]

The Danish Minister of Justice Søren Pind has said it is the rightwing and their hateful rhetoric against Islam and Muslim in common that is the cause to these terror attack we have witness lately in Europe.

Markus


the link in my post above is to an ISIS magazine (thanks to and hosted by the clarion project). In the chapter "why we hate you & why we fight you" will explain in their own words why they hate us, page 30 I believe.


Here I made it easy


1. We hate you, first and foremost, because you are disbelievers; you reject the oneness of Allah...

2. We hate you because your secular, liberal societies permit the very things that Allah has prohibited...

3. In the case of the atheist fringe, we hate you and wage war against you because you disbelieve in the existence of your Lord and Creator...

4. We hate you for your crimes against Islam and wage war against you to punish you
for your transgressions against our religion. As long as your subjects continue to mock our faith, insult the prophets of Allah – including Noah, Abraham, Mo- ses, Jesus, and Muhammad  – burn the Quran, and openly vilify the laws of the Shari’ah, we will continue to retaliate, not with slogans and placards, but with bullets and knives...

5. We hate you for your crimes against the Mus- lims; your drones and fighter jets bomb, kill, and maim our people around the world, and your puppets in the usurped lands of the Muslims oppress, torture, and wage war against anyone who calls to the truth...

6. We hate you for invading our lands and ght you to repel you and drive you out. As long as there is an inch of territory left for us to reclaim, jihad will continue to be a personal obligation on every single Muslim.

What’s important to understand here is that although some might argue that your foreign policies are the extent of what drives our hatred, this particular reason for hating you is secondary, hence the reason we addressed it at the end of the above list. The fact is, even if you were to stop bombing us, imprisoning us, torturing us, vilifying us, and usurping our lands, we would continue to hate you because our primary reason for hating you will not cease to exist until you embrace Islam. Even if you were to pay jizyah and live under the authority of Islam in humiliation, we would continue to hate you. No doubt, we would stop fighting you then as we would stop fighting any disbelievers who enter into a covenant with us, but we would not stop hating you.

What’s equally if not more important to understand is that we fight you, not simply to punish and deter you, but to bring you true freedom in this life and salvation in the Hereafter, freedom from being enslaved to your whims and desires as well as those of your clergy and legislatures, and salvation by worshiping your Creator alone and following His messenger. We fight you in order to bring you out from the darkness of disbelief and into the light of Islam, and to liberate you from the constraints of living for the sake of the worldly life alone so that you may enjoy both the blessings of the worldly life and the bliss of the Hereafter.

The gist of the matter is that there is indeed a rhyme to our terrorism, warfare, ruthlessness, and brutality. As much as some liberal journalist would like you to believe that we do what we do because we’re simply monsters with no logic behind our course of action, the fact is that we continue to wage – and escalate – a calculated war that the West thought it had ended several years ago. We continue dragging you further and further into a swamp you thought you’d already escaped only to realize that you’re stuck even deeper within its murky waters... And we do so while o e- ring you a way out on our terms. So you can conti- nue to believe that those “despicable terrorists” hate you because of your lattes and your Timberlands, and continue spending ridiculous amounts of money to try to prevail in an unwinnable war, or you can accept reality and recognize that we will never stop hating you until you embrace Islam, and will never stop gh- ting you until you’re ready to leave the swamp of war- fare and terrorism through the exits we provide, the very exits put forth by our Lord for the People of the Scripture: Islam, jizyah, or – as a last means of a fleeting respite – a temporary truce.

I know politicians tend to use events to their own advantage in order to maintain power but it would seem to me this is something they are losing control of. Politicians need to wake up and stop telling me its my fault because I just wasnt tolerant enough. And I'll be damned if Im going to embrace Islam so they'll stop hating me.

[Oberon]

It's what you're tolerant of, I guess.
One thing we can all agree on is that Daesh are intolerant of anything that does not conform to their ideals. I see no profit in being like Daesh, if I'm honest, but equally, I see no profit in tolerating Daesh.
Still, I'm in an increasing minority these days, so let's rock for the new Holy Wars! :rock:

[Rockstar]

Holy wars? After reading that article I'm all for opening up a can of good ol' fashioned secular whoopazz.

http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/f/9/f909e-633703213734967010_animalmother.jpg :rock:

[August]

It's what you're tolerant of, I guess.
One thing we can all agree on is that Daesh are intolerant of anything that does not conform to their ideals. I see no profit in being like Daesh, if I'm honest, but equally, I see no profit in tolerating Daesh.
Still, I'm in an increasing minority these days, so let's rock for the new Holy Wars! :rock:

Hey at least you call them by the right name.

[Oberon]

Hey at least you call them by the right name.

Been calling those lowlifes that since I first heard that they hate being called it. :03: :up:

[eddie]

Me too Oberon, if they hate it, I'll keep using it!

[Jimbuna]

Me three :yep:

[Oberon]

Also means you can call them Daeshbags, which amuses me. :yep:

[Gerald]

An Islamist militant has admitted destroying cultural sites in Timbuktu, Mali, in a landmark trial at the International Criminal Court (ICC).
Ahmad al-Faqi al-Mahdi said he was "really sorry" for his actions and asked for forgiveness.
He was accused of leading rebel forces who destroyed historic shrines at the world heritage site in 2012.




http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-37152191


He can have 30y in jail,and I say they got more and more of this in the future,a "tip of the Iceberg".:hmmm:





Note: 8-22-2016

[Oberon]

Huh, unusual for them to apologise, but still, you do the crime, into the slammer you go. :yep:

[Von Due]

I was reading that and there are 2 things that surprised me.
One was the apology. As Oberon said, that is unusual to say the least. Whether it is genuine or not I can't tell. I don't know the guy.
Second is it was an ICC trial, not a domestic one. The latter is interesting and I am curious to what it will mean for other cases both in the past, present and future. The Taliban and ISIS have an awful lot to answer for in the destruction of historical monuments alone. It is also interesting to see how it will be viewed, that an external court was set up instead of a domestic court. No doubt there are forces who will use it in their rethoric.

That being said: Yep, smash things up, heigh ho and off to jail you go.

[Aktungbby]

Ahmad al-Faqi al-Mahdi said he was "really sorry" for his actions and asked for forgiveness.
https://66.media.tumblr.com/bcd5cdf310a123290a84191f2bbc230f/tumblr_n4rjdvug6I1tzgbkuo1_500.gif (https://www.tumblr.com/search/schindler's%20list%20gifs#) Amon The Good pardons you! :damn:

[Skybird]

He apologized and asked for forgiveness?

Na dann is' ja alles wieder gut. [sigh of relief on, looping]

Worth a news mentioning? Hardly.

[Gerald]

He apologized and asked for forgiveness?

Na dann is' ja alles wieder gut. [sigh of relief on, looping]

Worth a news mentioning? Hardly. Worth a news mentioning?

This entry was for the "general public" who might not always have knowledge of the subject, hence a topic.:hmph:

[Jimbuna]

He apologized and asked for forgiveness?

Na dann is' ja alles wieder gut. [sigh of relief on, looping]

Worth a news mentioning? Hardly.

Agreed....thread merged.

[Skybird]

This entry was for the "general public" who might not always have knowledge of the subject, hence a topic.:hmph:
I meant the media in general, especially newspapers and news shows. ;)

[Von Due]

An interesting turn of events
http://www.juancole.com/2015/06/abandoning-zoroastrianism-disgust.html
http://www.niqash.org/en/articles/society/5014/
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2016/02/iraq-kurdistan-religious-minorities-zoroastrianism.html
http://rudaw.net/english/kurdistan/020620153

the question of how Kurdish zoroastrianism is aside.

One quote in particular
“The people of Kurdistan no longer know which Islamic movement, which doctrine or which fatwa, they should be believing in,” Mariwan Naqshbandi, the spokesperson for Iraqi Kurdistan's Ministry of Religious Affairs, told NIQASH. He says that the interest in Zoroastrianism is a symptom of the disagreements within Islam and religious instability in the Iraqi Kurdish region, as well as in the country as a whole.

Seems to me whoever will "unite" the muslims, it's not going to be ISIS if they keep it up.

[Oberon]

It certainly won't be Daesh who unites Islam since they spend most of their time killing Muslims. :doh:
I don't think there'll be any unifying figurehead within the next decade or so, not until Iran and Saudi Arabia have gotten their fill of fighting to see who is going to be the next top dog in the Middle East.
This being said, now would be the perfect time for such a figure to appear, someone to guide them away from the conflict they find themselves in...chances are though that anyone who is a non-government entity who gains any form of major religious following in the Middle East will probably get a Hellfire dropped on them, or their head removed.
Certainly the predictions in the early part of this century of a united radical Islamic Middle Eastern bloc haven't come true, and I don't think that they will for a while yet, not with all the various sects and so forth.
To be honest, even if one did, such empires are fleeting in the grander scheme of things, I think the Ottomans are probably the most successful of the empires, certainly in terms of length, although the Umayyads conquered a greater expanse but only lasted a century. Actually, the Umayyads are a good example because part of their downfall was their division between Arab and non-Arab Muslims leading (amongst other things) to the Abbasid uprising and the creation of the Abbasid Caliphate, which admittedly lead to the Islamic Golden Age, so it could go either way.

Then, of course something else happened:

http://67.media.tumblr.com/09c1040cc12c43fe452e6a7172d365f8/tumblr_mesx1hqPmB1r4gei2o1_400.gif

[Von Due]

Personally I don't think we will see a united muslim world at all, just like we won't see a one united world at all. The sectarianism, the political interests clashing, personal greed, religion, they just go too deep for that.

[Skybird]

Personally I don't think we will see a united muslim world at all, just like we won't see a one united world at all. The sectarianism, the political interests clashing, personal greed, religion, they just go too deep for that.
Yes, and that is to our luck. The West today would not exist and the roots for its cultural blossoming and global dominance until past century would have been cut off already many centuries ago, if the Muslim world would have been united.

[Von Due]

Yes, and that is to our luck. The West today would not exist and the roots for its cultural blossoming and global dominance until past century would have been cut off already many centuries ago, if the Muslim world would have been united.

Include all forms of One Ruler To Rule Them All and I agree to a large extent. Many have attempted, none have succeeded. It would have been a nightmare if we saw a ORTRTA no matter who or what that is. Enter global dominance, there you have yet another source for what we see around the world. The west has as little right to dominate other parts of the world as other parts have a right to dominate the west. Try to dominate others and you are no better that those who try to dominate you.

As for culture and let's not forget technology, sciences and mathematics. The far/near east brought us advanced astronomy, advanced maths (where would we have been without the number zero, or algebra?), the scholars in Baghdad discovered frequency analyses which is at the core of both cipher breaking and the evolution of ciphers which in turn lead to internet privacy. Paper came from China, to the Islamic world and finally to Europe centuries later. Imagine a modern civilisation here without paper.

Noone is an island and the west certainly is not the cradle for all things it is sometimes credited for, by us westerners.

On a somewhat flippant side: Bush once said
"The problem with the French is that they don't have a word for entrepreneur." and he believed it, just like we often believe that Europe was the cradle of all those things we imported or copied from others.

[mapuc]

in the news at noon I heard the expert on Middle East saying

Turkey, USA and Russia is fighting Daesh and here is where the unity ends.

Russia-is united with Assad fighting-everyone that is against Assad

Turkey-is united with (forgot the name) and are fighting Kurds, Daesh and Assad(if I heard correctly)

USA is united with Kurds and some other groups fighting Daesh and some other terror groups

Are you like me-confused ? then watch the next episode of Soa...sorry Syria and its funny groups at war

Markus

[Von Due]

in the news at noon I heard the expert on Middle East saying

Turkey, USA and Russia is fighting Daesh and here is where the unity ends.

Russia-is united with Assad fighting-everyone that is against Assad

Turkey-is united with (forgot the name) and are fighting Kurds, Daesh and Assad(if I heard correctly)

USA is united with Kurds and some other groups fighting Daesh and some other terror groups

Are you like me-confused ? then watch the next episode of Soa...sorry Syria and its funny groups at war

Markus

That is a good summary. Add to that:
Iran supports the Syrian Govt together with Russia, letting Russians use Iranian airbases. Iran denied the latter and the Russians merrily told everyone about it much to Iranian lack of enthusiasm.
PKK fights against the Turkish Govt and against ISIS which fights against everyone.

Some more info here
http://www.clarionproject.org/factsheet/whos-who-syrian-war

When I reached "Independent" I just burst out laughing. What a mess.

[mapuc]

As I told my Danish friend who is from Syria and is an elected politician

I see an endless civil war taking over from the former, where no groups will acknowledge a ceasefire agreement and therefore start or continue the war. The are some proposal about dived the country into smaller states. Not even that would solve the problems

The problems is much older than the war i Syria-its an old dispute between Shia and Sunni.


Markus

[Schroeder]

As I told my Danish friend who is from Syria and is an elected politician

I see an endless civil war taking over from the former, where no groups will acknowledge a ceasefire agreement and therefore start or continue the war. The are some proposal about dived the country into smaller states. Not even that would solve the problems

The problems is much older than the war i Syria-its an old dispute between Shia and Sunni.


Markus
That's why I think Syria's only chance is that Assad wins. He had the thing under control at least and I think that all other possible scenarios will be full of endless bloodshed and chaos.

[Von Due]

As I told my Danish friend who is from Syria and is an elected politician

I see an endless civil war taking over from the former, where no groups will acknowledge a ceasefire agreement and therefore start or continue the war. The are some proposal about dived the country into smaller states. Not even that would solve the problems

The problems is much older than the war i Syria-its an old dispute between Shia and Sunni.


Markus

The Shia/Sunni conflict definitely plays a huge part in who is allied with who and that comes down to 2 geezers both wanting to have the final saying on behalf of all muslims (sounds familiar?). Throw in Israel and the conflict with the Arab world, oppressive rulers like the Shah, like Assad, like Saddam, like the House of Sauds and the reaction that brings, throw in Afghanistan as a violent rethorician's wet dream, throw in the Pakistan/India separation, and you have a petri dish for cultivating extremism and terrorism.

Problem with Assad is, he is just as much anti-Israel as the Iranian Govt is, allowing Iran to use Syrian roads to ship weapons to Hezbollah who in turn are more than happy to use those weapons against Israel, something the west is very unhappy about. He is also utterly incapable of bringing lasting peace to his own country being an arch villain sort of ruler on par with all the other rulers who have either been overthrown or passified by revolting forces.
How unlikely it may seem, I can't see peace coming to Syria unless he either eases up on his oppression or is replaced by a more sane ruler/Govt that can bring enough factions together that the extreme factions are marginalized. Both of which are very unlikely. The alliance with Iran is both a matter of sectarianism and Israel and Israel is not likely to go anywhere. They are here to stay for the foreseeable future and so are the alliances that make Assad as strong as he is... A bloody mess indeed.

Then there is Afghanistan. The main motivation for support to the Taliban is to get the country rid of all foreign forces and bring peace (and strict religious laws) to the country. The first point is more than ironic as it was foreign fighters who mostly made up the Mujaheddin -> Taliban. So, foreigners then, to get the country rid of foreigners. Bet you that piece is ommitted in their PR stunts on the countryside.

Finally you have the Jihadists (lots of them from Saudi Arabia, an allied to the US against Iran) who will go anywhere there is a chance of getting some shooting and bombing done. Here you also find the mullahs and other rethoricians who travel around to stir up even more mayhem and madness.

A bloody mess indeed.

[Skybird]

Include all forms of One Ruler To Rule Them All and I agree to a large extent. Many have attempted, none have succeeded. It would have been a nightmare if we saw a ORTRTA no matter who or what that is. Enter global dominance, there you have yet another source for what we see around the world. The west has as little right to dominate other parts of the world as other parts have a right to dominate the west. Try to dominate others and you are no better that those who try to dominate you.

As for culture and let's not forget technology, sciences and mathematics. The far/near east brought us advanced astronomy, advanced maths (where would we have been without the number zero, or algebra?), the scholars in Baghdad discovered frequency analyses which is at the core of both cipher breaking and the evolution of ciphers which in turn lead to internet privacy. Paper came from China, to the Islamic world and finally to Europe centuries later. Imagine a modern civilisation here without paper.

Noone is an island and the west certainly is not the cradle for all things it is sometimes credited for, by us westerners.

On a somewhat flippant side: Bush once said
"The problem with the French is that they don't have a word for entrepreneur." and he believed it, just like we often believe that Europe was the cradle of all those things we imported or copied from others.
I know that. Arabia was somewhat superior in knowledge to Europe in the times before Muhammad. But you see: they may have invented algebra - but we found out what cool stuff can be done with it. It was no Arab and no Persian reachign the moon, but Russians and Americans. They had a wonderful starting condition at the time Muhammad was born, superior in medicine, optics, astronomy, trade networks with distant places - but it was later Western kingdoms ruling the world by trade. When Napoleon's expeditionary corps reached Egypt and European infidles started to wlak in t heir countries at will, they did so becasue they could - and the Muslim world was impotent to reach out to other poarts of the world any logner and walk there at their will. When they have an epidemic raging, they do not call their scholars at "world-famous" - for what, btw? - Anzhar university in Kairo, but the CDC in Atlanta. Never read the list with names of scientific Nobel laureates, it speaks volumes. And who invented and builds all the cool hightech stuff they love to buy, the transportation systems they use, the infrastructure they benefit from? And what they have in palaces and high tower cities - has been build by foreign workers, planned by foreign architects, with technology invented by foreigners, using tchcnology that was build in foreign places. If you buy something, you cannot claim the fame of having discovered, invented and produced it.

The point is, Muhammad'S new dogmas suffocated the exploration by sciences that could be used to quesiton the relgious dogma, and only acadmeic disciplines that were seen as non-challenging to the rule of Allah from then on wehre tolerated - with its practitioners still living dangerous, since intelligence always is seen as a threat if the ruling elite is stupid itself. Paralysis. Phlegmatism. Fatalism. That are the fruits of Muhammad's cultural revolution. - Or as somebody once put it: science in Islam do not ask whether the Quran could be right indeed or may be wrong. It is taken for granted that it is always right. Science thus only asks why it is that then Auran always is right.

You could not reach very far this way. And the world can easily see it.

If Islamic world really woudl have been so superior all the time in civilised and educational standards - then how comes that the West was able to catch up with it, overtake it, and leave it behind in the dust, reducing it to almost nothing of any meaning or importance? If they would have had no oil, their total and complete irrelevance in world history and the globe's developments would be perfect. The sand of their deserts cannot be used to form cement and concrete with it, its unusable for that. Civilisational superiority was not what made Islam great. It was military conquest, attack and invasion that overwhelmed resistenace to its greedy demand to claim what was of the others. In other words: the only tool of relevance for Islamic expansion was brute force. I have said often enough that Muhammad's Islam is a warrior's ideology, and I have nobody like a Worf-type of guy on my mind when saying that. More a murderous bandit lying in ambush behind a bush. That is what made Islam "great".

They stopped the clock of their civilisation 1400 years ago. Since then they are in hibernation, and when you wake one of them up, you have a human with the mind and views and knowledge of somebody living 1400 years ago.

[Skybird]

Problem with Assad is, he is just as much anti-Israel as the Iranian Govt is
From beginning on Israel preferred to have Assad than what they got now - a much more unpredictable situation with much more risks and a greater danger of even more aggressive threats to Israel emerging. They always were pragmatic about Syria, never idealistic.

[Von Due]

Actually, they were muslims by the time they made their own discoveries and had been for about 200 years. It was precicely because of their studies of their Islamic texts that they stumbled across code breaking.

Look up Abu Yusuf al-Kindi and the Abbasid Caliphs.

[Oberon]

French police bravely tackle extremist women on the beach:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3754395/Wealthy-Algerian-promises-pay-penalty-Muslim-woman-fined-France-wearing-burkini.html

[Nippelspanner]

The Danish Minister of Justice Søren Pind has said it is the rightwing and their hateful rhetoric against Islam and Muslim in common that is the cause to these terror attack we have witness lately in Europe.

Markus
Hi Markus,
can you please give me his address so I can kick him in the nuts in person?
Thank you in advance!

Yours truly,
Reason

[Von Due]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LChGfJMur5o

Some things to think about:
Which one of these 2 women want Sharia, including veiling and covering up of women?
Which one of them cover her face and hair? Which one doesn't?
Does it add up?
Which one of these 2 women's opinion is the most worrying?

As for that Danish minister, I wonder if he is that ignorant or if there is something else at play here. Him being ignorant would certainly make him a regular politician. However, here are some facts:

In Norway (can't speak for Denmark), having an Arab sounding name will almost certainly guarantee that your job application ends up in the trash can.

Those who send in a job application want that job.

Here you will find harrassment of muslims, both online, in comments sections in newspapers, in pubs, in taxi queues, in school etc etc etc.

Here you will find that many see muslims as one mass, one giant, united threat.

Here you will find apathy among young non-western immigrants. A reoccuring theme is "why should I get an education and debt that I can't pay off because I can't get a job? Hey look, the guy in the BMW made it big, through crime, screw this school and job BS". There is an ever growing culture in the streets that crime pays and there is no future for the young.

These young guys are default targets for Jihadist preachers and many are pushovers.

These are all connected.

While what the minister said is ignorant on its own, the sentiment out there that muslims shouldn't get a job in the first place is reinforced and justified by right wing rethorics, something that is not lost on the youngsters, nor the Jihadists. The latter will use every excuse to push their agenda. A wish to ban muslims from entering the society is handing the Jihadists the arguements they want, on a silver tray.

Sometimes I wonder if the anti-west and anti-east are family, bickering brothers.

[Schroeder]

French police bravely tackle extremist women on the beach:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3754395/Wealthy-Algerian-promises-pay-penalty-Muslim-woman-fined-France-wearing-burkini.html
Well, that's BS. I really fail to see what they're trying to achieve with that. The Burka is one thing, a Burkini is something else.:nope:

[Oberon]

Well, that's BS. I really fail to see what they're trying to achieve with that. The Burka is one thing, a Burkini is something else.:nope:

And then we complain that they don't intergrate when you have things like that and this happening:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CqmmoA3WgAAdzya.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CqmmoA8WIAAdX_-.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CqmmoBAXYAAJ0G_.jpg

It's like "Come here and integrate...wait...are you doing something that might be construed as vaguely Arabic? Call the police, you're a terrorist!"

[Nippelspanner]

And then we complain that they don't intergrate when you have things like that and this happening
Oh PLEASE now Oberon! :/\\!!
What happened first!?
Them, in the millions, denying to integrate themselves into various European countries by refusing to adapt to our customs, laws, culture, let alone learn the very basics of our language(s) - or some cops being dicks, or a scared flight attended over-reacting?!

WHY do we never see or read about Russians, Norwegians, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Italian, Spanish, American, Mexican or Israeli people all over Europe "failing to integrate"?
How is it people from these countries see it as absolutely normal to behave and integrate, while still staying close to their cultures, yet the very most Muslims do everything they can to NOT integrate smoothly, and even try to change the laws and customs of the countries they are guests in?

Really, I expected better straw-men from you by now!

[Von Due]

Oh PLEASE now Oberon! :/\\!!
What happened first!?
Them, in the millions, denying to integrate themselves into various European countries by refusing to adapt to our customs, laws, culture, let alone learn the very basics of our language(s) - or some cops being dicks, or a scared flight attended over-reacting?!

WHY do we never see or read about Russians, Norwegians, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Italian, Spanish, American, Mexican or Israeli people all over Europe "failing to integrate"?
How is it people from these countries see it as absolutely normal to behave and integrate, while still staying close to their cultures, yet the very most Muslims do everything they can to NOT integrate smoothly, and even try to change the laws and customs of the countries they are guests in?

Really, I expected better straw-men from you by now!

Because the papers don't write much about them. Go to Spain and watch Norwegian ex-pats complain out loud that the waiters at the restaurant doesn't speak Norwegian, that the schools only teach the kids Spanish instead of Norwegian, that the restaurants don't put Norwegian meals on the menu. That's right, I can assure you they are there. Funny how it is, isn't it? It is also among them you will find a large portion who vote for anti-Immigration laws in Norway, a country they left solely for comfort.

[Oberon]

Ah, NS, I've been expecting you.

If you don't like my 'Strawmen' then put me on ignore and go bother someone else. :yeah:

[Nippelspanner]

Because the papers don't write much about them.
[citation needed]

Ah, NS, I've been expecting you.
Did you really think I'd let you down!? Come on man...

If you don't like my 'Strawmen' then put me on ignore and go bother someone else. :yeah:
I don't like your straw-men, no, but that doesn't mean I would feel the need to put you on any list. It means I feel the need to call them out for what they are. :yep:

[Oberon]

[citation needed]


Did you really think I'd let you down!? Come on man...

I don't like your straw-men, no, but that doesn't mean I would feel the need to put you on any list. It means I feel the need to call them out for what they are. :yep:

Well, I hope it brings you happiness. :up:

[HunterICX]

Oh PLEASE now Oberon! :/\\!!
What happened first!?
Them, in the millions, denying to integrate themselves into various European countries by refusing to adapt to our customs, laws, culture, let alone learn the very basics of our language(s) - or some cops being dicks, or a scared flight attended over-reacting?!In what happened first shouldn't matter in the 3 examples Oberon puts up, it's the response from the latter who are overreacting to things foreign is what matters.

Or if I'm the UK I guess I'm not allowed to read Dutch books when boarding planes Mmmmm? because it shows my lack of adapting to their customs, culture and according to you breaks the law? and clearly I refuse to learn their language because I read in my language. :88)

WHY do we never see or read about Russians, Norwegians, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Italian, Spanish, American, Mexican or Israeli people all over Europe "failing to integrate"?
How is it people from these countries see it as absolutely normal to behave and integrate, while still staying close to their cultures, yet the very most Muslims do everything they can to NOT integrate smoothly, and even try to change the laws and customs of the countries they are guests in?In Spain,
Russians don't speak Spanish
Chinese speak really poorly Spanish.
Germans, Dutch, Finns and English usually settle with their own nationality in neigbhbourhoods and either don't speak Spanish or very poorly as they put little effort in learning the language. Then there's their grievances aimed at the Spaniards for their customs, culture and laws. :roll:

Ow but not everyone, there are the few that do adapt and learn the language but hardly everyone from said countries I know off.

EDIT: That you don't read about these cases means you haven't put any effort in searching for them:
http://www.exberliner.com/features/lifestyle/sorry-no-german/

Really, I expected better straw-men from you by now!Could say the same about you.

[Von Due]

I hope you can read Norwegian, Nippelspanner. Enjoy
http://www.tb.no/avkleddavjakob/reiseliv/utenriks/notteroy-par-har-vart-30-ar-i-spania-vi-har-ikke-spanske-venner-og-kan-ikke-spansk/f/5-76-339647

This quote is pretty amusing, don't you think?
– Vi er rett og slett en norsk koloni som bare benytter oss av et annet lands geografiske område, forteller Ruben Bredal, elevrådsleder ved Den norske skolen i Rojales.
translated via Google:

- We are simply a Norwegian colony only make use of another country's geographical area , says Ruben Bredal , student council at The Norwegian School of Rojales .

Another brilliant one
– Hvorfor er dere i Spania hvis dere uansett er med nordmenn?

– Det er et lettere liv her, sier Cordula Eva.


- Why are you in Spain if you only stick with Norwegians anyway?

- It's an easier life here , says Cordula Eve.

[Oberon]

You've only got to look at areas like Chinatown or Little Italy to see how people of the same nationality in a foreign land often band together in concentrated areas in which their culture flourishes. :yep:

[Nippelspanner]

[/I]In what happened first shouldn't matter in the 3 examples Oberon puts up
Yes, it does, as he basically excused the non-integrating Muslims with these incidents, which is complete nonsense and a prime example of a straw-man.


Or if I'm the UK I guess I'm not allowed to read Dutch books when boarding planes Mmmmm? because it shows my lack of customs, culture and according to you breaks the law? and clearly I refuse to learn their language because I read in my language. :88)
It is about daily life.
I can't speak for Spain, but the level of "integration" of Muslims here in Germany is underwhelming, and surely not because they don't have the chance. Hell, this country does what it can to offer people to integrate. It even starts to enforce integration to fight the problems of non-integrated people living here. I wonder why? :hmmm:

Over here, Muslims insult female teachers due to their dark-age-like religious beliefs, they demand that their daughters won't participate in sports classes, let alone swimming classes. They refuse to learn the language, they only keep with their kind 100% of the time, under any circumstances.
At least, too many of them.
I experienced all of this in person (well, not the female teacher thing, that happened to a relative of mine who schools refugees and hell...does she have stories at the ready!).



In Spain,
Russians don't speak Spanish
Then kick them out/enforce integration laws - I don't know.
Over here, Russians integrate perfectly.
I have many Russian neighbors. Weird people (not meant in a negative way), but totally awesome. Friendly and hard working, honest and calm.
They keep with their kind mostly, (only natural btw.), yet they still invite you to BBQ and fill you up with Vodka until you drop.
I lived in 5 different German cities and my experiences were the same in every city, be it Berlin, Flensburg, Osnabrück, Bremen, or the city I'm living in now.


Chinese don't pay their taxes, speak really poorly Spanish.
Germans, Dutch, Finns and English usually settle with their own nationality in neigbhbourhoods and either don't speak Spanish or very poorly as they put little effort in learning the language.
Which is natural, but today's good-humans refuse to understand this. And as long as everyone keeps peace, this is totally OK, is it not?
"Integration" doesn't mean to become some regressive leftist "let's all hold hands and dance in circles" kind of person. Accept local laws, keep peaceful, don't piss off the locals and know that you're a guest.
Why is this so difficult?


Then there's their grievances aimed at the Spaniards for their customs, culture and laws. :roll:
Like what?
And here as well, kick them out/change your laws.
I find this kind of behavior infuriating.
If I migrate to another country, it might be a good idea to check first if I am OK with their culture, laws and customs. Sure, many things you can't know before hand, there's always that risk of the unknown, but for the most important things, it works.
And I guess I don't have to point out how incompatible the Muslim culture and belief-system is with anything west?


Ow but not everyone, there are the few that do adapt and learn the language but hardly everyone from said countries I know off.
Again, shame, but then the situation in Spain seems to be very different then Germany. I can't think of any Russian I ever met (it have been many throughout my life) who didn't speak German good enough to get by and socialize. Muslims, though......

Could say the same about you.
How was anything what I said a straw-man?

[Nippelspanner]

You've only got to look at areas like Chinatown or Little Italy to see how people of the same nationality in a foreign land often band together in concentrated areas in which their culture flourishes. :yep:
Yes, indeed - because they do accept the local laws and customs as well. Peacefully and even being tourist hot-spots
Now go to Berlin-Neukölln and spend a day in the streets there, especially after dark.
If you didn't receive any seriously hateful looks
If you won't get insulted as a dirty Kafir
If you won't get intimidated, robbed or even mugged
If you won't get sexually molested or even assaulted (as a Woman)

I swear I won't ever say anything in regards of this topic again, ever. Furthermore, I will voluntarily work with 'refugees' and you know what?
I will even openly praise Allah to be the one and only God.

Before you start to book a ticket, let me save you the money and tell you, it is impossible.

[Von Due]

You've only got to look at areas like Chinatown or Little Italy to see how people of the same nationality in a foreign land often band together in concentrated areas in which their culture flourishes. :yep:

Yep indeed. Integration does not equal giving up on everything in one's own culture. If that was true then the Americans would be living in tepees, eating corn, fish and buffalo meat and the British Isles wouldn't be recognizable. The Cajuns' singing can sometimes drill holes in concrete but I wouldn't want to be without the talented ones. Pizza? Kebabs? Hamburgers? Yes please. Curry? By the barrels.

The Irish mafia, the Italian mafia, the Chinese mafia, the Mexican mafia, ISIS, Boko Haram, those guys I can very well live without and so can most people on this planet.

[Nippelspanner]

Yep indeed. Integration does not equal giving up on everything in one's own culture.
Just out of curiosity, did someone claim this to be the case, or are you just re-assuring?

[Von Due]

Just out of curiosity, did someone claim this to be the case, or are you just re-assuring?

Not sure if you read the news but in France there is this thing now with burkinis and whether or not they should be banned and right now it seems that the ban-camp is on top.

[Nippelspanner]

Not sure if you read the news but in France there is this thing now with burkinis and whether or not they should be banned and right now it seems that the ban-camp is on top.
I missed this incident indeed.
As far as I have seen, their faces weren't covered and I do not see why bathing fully clothed (as silly as I find it...) would be something that needs to be banned. This is simply stupid and unjustified and unreasonable on every level.

[Oberon]

Yep indeed. Integration does not equal giving up on everything in one's own culture. If that was true then the Americans would be living in tepees, eating corn, fish and buffalo meat and the British Isles wouldn't be recognizable. The Cajuns' singing can sometimes drill holes in concrete but I wouldn't want to be without the talented ones. Pizza? Kebabs? Hamburgers? Yes please. Curry? By the barrels.

The Irish mafia, the Italian mafia, the Chinese mafia, the Mexican mafia, ISIS, Boko Haram, those guys I can very well live without and so can most people on this planet.

Absolutely, there are plenty of examples were people have come from another country and set up like an enclave of their own culture within a nation of a completely different culture. I am reminded of the German presence in Colonia Tovar, it honestly like traveling into a slice of Germany within South America. It started as a closed community in 1843 and only in 1940 did it even begin intergrating into the local region by allowing locals to marry outside of the German social group and adopting Spanish as the primary language.
Ironically this has been counter-productive for tourism as a lot of German tourists visit expecting a much more German experience and so the residents have had to step back and re-Germanise themselves in order to keep tourism up.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

As long as immigrant (regardless of origin or culture) agrees to follow our laws and values (self-determination, equality etc.), respect authority of judicial system and principles of democratic governance, then they are welcome.

If person in question thinks these are too much to ask for religious or cultural reasons, then he or she should leave and try another country more in line with his or her religion or culture. Any concession in base values on which our society and democracy is bulit on are unacceptable.

Thats all.

[Skybird]

As long as immigrant (regardless of origin or culture) agrees to follow our laws and values (self-determination, equality etc.), respect authority of judicial system and principles of democratic governance, then they are welcome.

If person in question thinks these are too much to ask for religious or cultural reasons, then he or she should leave and try another country more in line with his or her religion or culture. Any concession in base values on which our society and democracy is bulit on are unacceptable.

Thats all.

Basing on "The first requisite of a good citizen in this republic of ours is that he shall be able and willing to pull his own weight. ~ Theodore Roosevelt", I would argue that the migrant also has to come up for his own living instead of expecting us to give him a free ride. That means we should need him. We must discriminate between migrants we need, and migrants we need not. At least they must be able to come up for his living. And even then he still is nothing I would consider an enrichment of us. That he only would be here if the benefits of his being-here would be not just be equal to but higher to what it costs us. An investment that does not produce not just compensation but a profit, is no investment, but a waste of time at least, with no compensation for the risks involved. And so, over a longer stream of such misled "investments", we would only lose, but gain nothing.

[Von Due]

As long as immigrant (regardless of origin or culture) agrees to follow our laws [...], respect authority of judicial system and principles of democratic governance, then they are welcome.

If person in question thinks these are too much to ask for religious or cultural reasons, then he or she should leave and try another country more in line with his or her religion or culture. Any concession in base values on which our society and democracy is bulit on are unacceptable.

Thats all.

Agree totally.

As long as immigrant (regardless of origin or culture) agrees to follow our [...] values (self-determination, equality etc.)

This raises a few questions.

To the Vietnamese here, traditionally it is unthinkable to send the elder off to a retirement home to rot away. Here it is the norm and fully expected. Personally, I would much rather have family around, living in my own home, than being left with a bunch of strangers and professionals too pressed for time and money to look after me as I live in a room that isn't mine, with a room mate I don't know. I said traditionally as this has seen some change the last couple of decades but it is still very much present in the Vietnamese values. Values that go against law on the other hand, well then the law does the talking, end of story. Celebrate as many Hanukkahs and Eids and Christmases you can handle but thugees and Jihadists on the other hand can bugger off to jail or Pluto.

As for equality, well, men still make more money than women here, doing the same job and that is largely accepted.

I do get what you're saying but there are complications to it. We sort those out and we're good to go.

[Von Due]

Another attack in Afghanistan
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-37178241

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

@Von Due

Very valid criticism. There has been cases where immigrants have not been allowed to take their elderly (grand)parents with them, even when they have promised to cover all expenses. That runs quite badly against my own values (except for his last two months spent in medical care my late grandpa lived at his own home with our assistance), but unfortunately wording of law in question is very tight in it's definition of "core family" (parents and their underaged children). Until this "immigration crisis" is somehow solved it is very hard to find political support for rectifying the problem.

Wage inequality is persistent problem here and nobody seems to viable plan to correct it. Although lot is done this isn't perfect country and that is certainly good to keep in mind.

[mapuc]

I will share with you a story I was told in real life

My former brother-in-law was visiting my sister(his former wife) he had a friend with him

Here are what this friend told me-He was from Syria

-Do you think that every person who takes the trip to Syria is doing this to get a chance to fight for Daesh or other terror groups

I said yes

Then you and many more are wrong-Many take the trip to fight for the Free Syrian Army-most of them do however end in one of the terror groups and the reason is very simpel.

Even though we are in desperat need of personal most infantry, we are not deviating from the rules that the person who want to fight along others in the Free Syrian Army, have fulfilled his military training in either in the country where he comes from or in the country he fled from.

When they then hear
Sorry no military training -no fighting, but we need people working behind "the scene" making food, give help to wounded soldies and so on.

This person who are standing in front of the officer and hear this, get sad, ´cause he was looking forward to an adventure not working as a chef or a nurse, so he leave.
Before the day is over this person has very likely found a terror group that is more than happy to lender him a weapon so he can fight for their "case"

I don't know how much of this is true-maybe it's nothing more than a little fairy tale.

Markus

[Von Due]

@mapuc

I have no trouble thinking that is reality. Remember the Spanish civil war and how people, many not even Spanish, went there to fight, and not all fought on the same side. I see it as the same thing happening here. Only difference is, as you said, here they are told they can't do what they went there for so they find a way to do it.

[Oberon]

Looks like the leader of the CHP Kemalist party in Turkey just survived an assassination attempt, at least that seems to be what I can make out from bing translation on twitter.

[Von Due]

Looks like the leader of the CHP Kemalist party in Turkey just survived an assassination attempt, at least that seems to be what I can make out from bing translation on twitter.

Nothing I could find in international news but the search for CHP and suikast (assassination) gave a bunch of hits of recent posts in Turkish. Seeing CHP is the main opposition in the parliament, it will be interesting to learn more.

[Catfish]

It is alway astonishing, how deeply democratic and dependable ally Mr. Erdoghan is.

I think all turks demonstrating for Mr. Erdoghan here in Germany, should instantly be forced to leave the country, and experience new turkish democracy the hard way.

[Von Due]

Some interesting view points from the Bar-Ilan University in Israel:

http://besacenter.org/perspectives-papers/destruction-islamic-state-strategic-mistake/

which wasn't lost on Iranian news.
http://en.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13950604000243

[eddie]

Syrian pilots better start checking their "six" a bit more often,lol Having an F-22 on your tail without knowing it can be dangerous to your health!:D

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/08/25/united-states-pilots-tense-syrian-jet-encounter/89258646/

[Nippelspanner]

It is alway astonishing, how deeply democratic and dependable ally Mr. Erdoghan is.

I think all turks demonstrating for Mr. Erdoghan here in Germany, should instantly be forced to leave the country, and experience new turkish democracy the hard way.
I agree, but it's not possible because "human rights" etc. etc.
However, if things in Turkey would deteriorate even more, so we could finally and officially speak about a dicatorship, then... who knows, things might be different, "legally".
However, considering the pussification of our government and the severe load of Gutmenschen who tend to give the wrong people the fifth chance and still don't understand what's happening, I doubt it.

Be that as it may, I gotta say I am actually deeply surprised and very disappointed by the Turks for not doing anything against this while they still have a chance. Probably easy to say, but... I don't know. How can they just sit and watch, or worse, how can they support this despot?!

I always thought from all Muslim countries, Turkey, or the Turks, are the most civil and advanced and most liberal. Now they establish a dictatorship.
This is sad to witness.

[Jimbuna]

Syrian pilots better start checking their "six" a bit more often,lol Having an F-22 on your tail without knowing it can be dangerous to your health!:D

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/08/25/united-states-pilots-tense-syrian-jet-encounter/89258646/

I'd be a little more concerned should an air engagement come about with Russian aircraft.

[eddie]

Yes Jim, one mistake by either side in this game could be dangerous, whether Russian or Syrian. Seems the Iranians are playing a dangerous game too. Four of their speed boats ran an intercept of an American destroyer and came within 300 meters of it before turning away.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/iran-vessels-make-high-speed-intercept-of-us-ship-us-official/ar-BBw1igJ?li=BBnbfcL

Second time they pulled this crap, warning shots were fired at them. Keep pushing Iran, just keep pushing the envelope and the response they get will not be to their liking.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-ship-fires-warning-shots-at-iranian-vessel-official/ar-BBw3FqN?li=BBnb7Kz

[Jimbuna]

Rgr that Eddie :yep:

A pity I can't get the video footage to play from that first link.

[eddie]

Hope this one works Jim. They say the Iranians weapons were uncovered, that's asking for it!

https://news.usni.org/2016/08/24/video-destroyer-uss-nitze-harassed-iranian-patrol-boats

[mapuc]

I'd be a little more concerned should an air engagement come about with Russian aircraft.

Another "mishap" could be a air engagement between a Turkish fighter jet attacking Kurds and a American defending them

I see this as a very unlikely scenario, however it is possible.

Markus

[Jimbuna]

Hope this one works Jim. They say the Iranians weapons were uncovered, that's asking for it!

https://news.usni.org/2016/08/24/video-destroyer-uss-nitze-harassed-iranian-patrol-boats

Thank you sir, that link works fine :salute:

The quote below sums it all up for me. Take one of the arrogant buggas out and see if their mates still feel brave (or perhaps stupid) enough to keep on playing these dangerous games.

“The Nitze and U.S. Naval Forces Central Command (NAVCENT) assessed the interaction as unsafe and unprofessional due to the Iranian vessels not abiding by international law and maritime standards including the 1972 Convention on the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea (COLREGS) maritime ‘Rules of the Road’,” a defense official told USNI News.
“The Iranian high rate of closure on a Unites States ship operating in accordance with international law while transiting in international waters along with the disregard of multiple warning attempts created a dangerous, harassing situation that could have led to further escalation including additional defensive measures by Nitze.”

[Jimbuna]

Another "mishap" could be a air engagement between a Turkish fighter jet attacking Kurds and a American defending them

I see this as a very unlikely scenario, however it is possible.

Markus

I'm not a big fan of Erdoghan atm but one should always keep in mind that Turkey is currently a member of NATO.

Granted, an untrustworthy member in my estimation and one who is currently cosying up to Putin and therefore happy to be in two camps at the same time.

I should imagine it would take a Turkish aircraft to fire first before a western/US military return of fire would occur and the whole area is a big enough mess without adding further to it.

As you so rightly say, it is unlikely but still possible.

[Nippelspanner]

Stumbled over this, had the feeling this reminds me of a previous debate here... :hmmm:

https://media2.riemurasia.net/albumit/mmedia/9a/81c/169v/21378/normal_1911702227.jpg

[Jimbuna]

Assad forces have retaken Darayya after a four-year siege.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-37205028

Hopefully this will end the slaughter of defenceless innocent children.

[mapuc]

This is nothing more than an idea I have had for a while.

About the ongoing civil war in Syria and the Turkish-Kurd problem(s)

First a ceasefire for the entire Syria, not only some part of it, but all of it is needed before next step can be done.(this is one of the hardest part)

When this ceasefire is a reality-Assad shall, under UN and some neutral states control, make a real election-Every fighting part of this civil war shall accept that there is an election and they shall recognize the people's choice

When this is done I recognize a majority of the voters have voted against Assad.

Next step-get Assad to recognize the result and step down. I think he need to get into exile-Iran could be a good choice.(this part is the hardest of them all)

Next step is to get the other groups to maintain the ceasefire, when though they didn't get what they hoped for in this election.

The goal is to create a Government with members from every part of the Syrian population there is, Shia, Sunni, Kurds, a.s.o

The Kurds

Here our diplomats and other politicians from Europe and USA are going on a hard job-convinced Turkey, Iraq, Iran and some other countries to give some of their land to the Kurds so they can have their own country.

Nothing but an idea, which I know if filled with holes

Markus

[eddie]

Assad forces have retaken Darayya after a four-year siege.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-37205028

Hopefully this will end the slaughter of defenceless innocent children.

Its amazing Jim, anyone has survived that siege!

[Jimbuna]

Its amazing Jim, anyone has survived that siege!

True that :yep:

[Von Due]

Taliban attack on courthouse in Pakistan
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-37253739

[Von Due]

After watching this video through, after asking for and getting advice from staff here, and a bit of thinking, I decided this video can be linked up.

This is a team of Al Jazeera journalists/camera crew getting access to the Afghan Taliban and ISIS, and gives a rare, and harrowing, glimpse of what is going on there, the 3 part conflict between Government, Taliban and ISIS, with the civilians caught in the middle.

Warning: Although this video does not show any injuries or deaths, and is within the forum rules as I understand them, it still contain disturbing segments like how very young children are brain washed, and prisoners before their execution. Viewer's discretion adviced.

That being said, it is an important report that shows what life is like there, seen from 4 sides, the Govt, the Taliban, ISIS and the civilians. Especially disturbing to me was watching how ruined young children became under ISIS. An interview with 2 young teenagers was revealing. They both were prepared for suicide missions but they both could not look the reporter in his eyes, their eyes looking away or at the ground, their feet never resting and them parroting phrases that had been repeated over and over again. It was a tough watch. This is the "home front" ISIS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYfBeeUzVME

[Rockstar]

Gee who would have thought the British goverment would end up associated with Subsim's All Purpose Terrorism Thread.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/09/14/londons-muslim-mayor-appoints-integration-deputy-worked-jihadi-john-apologists/

[Skybird]

Just in: French media report shots fired in Paris Les Halles/Etienne Marcel. Terror attack alarm is in effect. Police is running a major anti-terror operation. Situation unclear.

[Jimbuna]

Nothing being reported here in the UK thus far.

[Skybird]

http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/en-direct-paris-vaste-operation-anti-terroriste-en-cours-dans-le-quartier-des-halles-17-09-2016-6128865.php#xtor=AD-1481423554

Possible false alarm. Operation seems to have ended. But this news not confirmed. Affected districts partly were evacuated, public panic.

[Nippelspanner]

Just in: French media report shots fired in Paris Les Halles/Etienne Marcel. Terror attack alarm is in effect. Police is running a major anti-terror operation. Situation unclear.
False alarm.

[mapuc]

Just in

Military forces from the Syrian army has been attacked either by American or some of their allied-about 80 soldiers died in this attack

A journalist- said that the is some rumours that it was Russian fighter jets who attacked the Syrian position.

Markus

[Von Due]

Just in

Military forces from the Syrian army has been attacked either by American or some of their allied-about 80 soldiers died in this attack

A journalist- said that the is some rumours that it was Russian fighter jets who attacked the Syrian position.

Markus

Russians attacking Assad's forces? So, it's all against all for real then? This should be interesting, in a bizarre sense. Next, French fighters attacking their own soup stations. Fresh from the Beeb
"US-led coalition air strikes have killed at least 62 Syrian troops fighting so-called Islamic State in the east, the Russian military says."

Confusion is still the order of the day.

[mapuc]

Russians attacking Assad's forces? So, it's all against all for real then? This should be interesting, in a bizarre sense. Next, French fighters attacking their own soup stations. Fresh from the Beeb
"US-led coalition air strikes have killed at least 62 Syrian troops fighting so-called Islamic State in the east, the Russian military says."

Confusion is still the order of the day.

Are watching our 24/7 news channel and in the bottom of the screen a yellow text is running-USA coalition have attacked Syrian forces near-(some Arabian name of some place)

Later I saw a Danish Journalist saying that there is a rumour that it was not USA but Russian who made this terrible mistake.

It was not 80 dead as I wrote in my first post, but 62.

Markus

[Von Due]

Are watching our 24/7 news channel and in the bottom of the screen a yellow text is running-USA coalition have attacked Syrian forces near-(some Arabian name of some place)

Later I saw a Danish Journalist saying that there is a rumour that it was not USA but Russian who made this terrible mistake.

It was not 80 dead as I wrote in my first post, but 62.

Markus

No doubt they will blame eachother until someone decides it's getting too silly which could take a while.

EDIT: That was over quick.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-37398721

[mapuc]

Now that USA has taken the blame I think not much more will happen

There will maybe be some meeting among high ranked officer from USA and Russia where USA are demanding more precisely whereabouts of the Syrian's army so this doesn't occur again.

The only thing that going to happen, if something will happen, will be some protest from the Syrian government

Markus

[Oberon]

Seems to have been US airforces which conducted the strike...rumour has it that Russian officers were killed in it.

Oops...

[Nippelspanner]

Great, because tensions weren't high enough already! :yeah:

[Oberon]

Explosion in Chelsea neighbourhood, Manhattan, 14 injured.

[Mr Quatro]

If only the Turks could've been stronger a hundred and two years ago all of this could've been avoided.

http://www.slidego.com/res/palooza/world/TheSickManofEurope/600C4C04.jpg

[Nippelspanner]

If only the Turks could've been stronger a hundred and two years ago all of this could've been avoided.
Debatable.

[eddie]

Explosion in Chelsea neighbourhood, Manhattan, 14 injured.

Its up to 25 injuries, but they are bot life threatening. Seems the explosion was from inside a dumpster.

[Oberon]

The Ottomans were the 'sick man of Europe' long before 102 years ago.

[Oberon]

Its up to 25 injuries, but they are bot life threatening. Seems the explosion was from inside a dumpster.

Yes, thank goodness for the non-serverity of the injuries. A pipe bomb in a trash can/dumpster, it's a classic setup but not one that's been done for a while. There was another earlier today down in New Jersey, same setup, at a marathon run in aid of Marines and Sailors. As a target that makes more sense than a random street in Manhattan, could be that the bomber thought authorities would be closing in on them and so decided to use up the remaining explosive(s) in a random street.
The NYPD say they have a suspect detained eight blocks from the scene, so hopefully that'll shed some light on it.

[Nippelspanner]

For some reason, I don't think this is anything Islamic this time.
Probably just some (white) lunatic.

We'll see.

[Oberon]

For some reason, I don't think this is anything Islamic this time.
Probably just some (white) lunatic.

We'll see.

The language the cops and mayor are using seems to point that way too, they've not been quick to use the T word, so it doesn't sound like whoever they picked up as a suspect was Muslim. Certainly it doesn't seem like their sort of MO, but that is something that is changing a lot lately as counter-terrorism forces block up one angle of attack, they move to another.

Sure is a baptism of fire for the new NYPD chief! :doh:

[eddie]

Yeah they have said that in New Jersey, there were several pipe bombs in a trash can, but only one went off luckily. Now we have reports of multiple stabbings at a mall in St. Cloud,Minnesota. The suspect is dead, several people sent to local hospital. No news on the suspect yet as to who he was.

[Oberon]

Rumours that they've found a second device which is a pressure cooker, that's a bit more towards traditional 'terrorist' materials, but in the aftermath of Boston it's a well known device so still not a big arrow towards any particular group.

[em2nought]

For some reason, I don't think this is anything Islamic this time.
Probably just some (white) lunatic.

We'll see.

Now that they're getting desperate, I'm pretty sure there's someone there from DC carrying a couple brand new "team deplorable" shirts to place on whoever they arrest. :yep:

[Jimbuna]

No doubt they will blame eachother until someone decides it's getting too silly which could take a while.

EDIT: That was over quick.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-37398721

Her opposite number, Vitaliy Churkin, said he had never seen "such an extraordinary display of American heavy-handedness" as shown by Ms Power.

I can think of a few countries (Ukraine to name but one) who would call 'kettle/pot black'.

[Von Due]

I can think of a few countries (Ukraine to name but one) who would call 'kettle/pot black'.

Yes but you see, there are bad guys and there are good guys, there are bad blunders and there are good blunders, there is bad friendly fire and there is good friendly fire. Just ask any politician or army spokesperson and they will agree :haha:

[eddie]

Daesh claims responsibility for knife attack at Minnesota mall. FBI still investigating the attacker though. Just glad he is dead!

http://abcnews.go.com/US/isis-claims-responsibility-stabbing-attack-minnesota-mall/story?id=42173697

[Oberon]

To be fair, Daesh claims responsibility for most things so I tend to take them with a truck of salt.

[Catfish]

What does "taking responsibility" mean anyway?

Nothing, and it does not matter who uses this empty phrase, being it politicians or terrorists.

[eddie]

That's true, but like I said the FBI is still investigating the attacker. I don't care if he was inspired by Daesh, as long as that POS is dead, that's all that matters,lol

[Skybird]

The wannabe-murderer who attacked nine people in Minnesota with a knife, is claimed by media close to the IS to be - or better: to have been - an IS activist.

[Nippelspanner]

What does "taking responsibility" mean anyway?

Nothing, and it does not matter who uses this empty phrase, being it politicians or terrorists.
Can you elaborate?
I wouldn't say it means nothing.

If they just claim it because whatever, sure, it is meaningless.
But if the person really were in contact with them, influenced, instructed and supported maybe, then I'd say it does matter, wouldn't you?

[Skybird]

Accepting or claiming responsibility:

An element of punishment is what it is about. The politicians who not only leaves an office but accepts to be held legally viable at court for whatever he claims he takes responsibility. The terror organisation or the criminal who make themselves targets of military, lethal retaliation for the crime they confessed to.

Somebody being hindered to continue with his doing, somebody not being elected once again, or leaving office - that is not what it is about, such "accpeting of responsibility" is just empty phrasing.

A criminal is not already being held responsible just because he gets arrested and thus hindred form repeating or continuing his crime. That he gets sentenced and must endure the penalty for the crime - that is what means he is being held responsible for something. Penalty, damage compensation and prevention are three totally different things.

Politicians most of the time never are being held responsible for anything. They are just changing the office for their political career, and even if they are kicked out of politics, which rarely happens only, they are being paid hilarious ammounts of money for their "expertise" or for holding speeches or lectures. Same is true for business lobbyists, and major business leaders. Usually they must not fear to be held accountable with their private property for their decisions, or that they are being sent to jail. The copnsequences of their misdxeeds only must be shouldered, endured, paid for by the people.

Where this personally punishing element lacks, "claiming responsibility" only is about making sound waves in the air. Its meaningless.

Same about forgiveness, and apologies. Before there maybe will be forgiveness, there must be confessing of guilt. Before confessing guilt, there must be remorse. Before there can be remorse, there must be insight. Without insight, remorse, confession of guilt, and accepting responsiblity, an excuse is a worthless waste of time, an offence of the receiver, at best the speaker is aiming at securing an opportunistic deal at court or an opportunistic advantage for their goals in life.

[eddie]

The attacker in Minnesota was a 22 year old Somali. We have one of the largest Somali communities in the country around the Twin Cities. Have had a number of them go to Somalia to fight in that war, plus a number of them have been arrested and are facing federal charges of trying to go to the ME to join a terrorist organization , some have been found guilty and are awaiting sentencing.
To say this 22 year old Somali couldn't be inspired by Daesh is nonsense. He yelled the Akbar nonsense before he started stabbing people, and asked some if the were Muslim, before he stabbed them. An off duty cop shot and killed him, sure glad he was there to end it before he stabbed anyone else.

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2016/09/18/isis-st-cloud-mall-stabbing-islamic-state/

[Jimbuna]

New York bombing suspect named as Ahmad Khan Rahami.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-37409441

[Oberon]

New York bombing suspect named as Ahmad Khan Rahami.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-37409441

And also arrested:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CsufvQUWAAA2mXb.jpg:large

[Von Due]

And also arrested:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CsufvQUWAAA2mXb.jpg:large

That was a good thing they didn't shoot him. Provided he's the one, now he has information that is pretty much inaccessible if he was shot dead, just what intelligence needs.

[MaDef]

Since he is a U.S. citizen, He should be tried for treason, stripped of his citizenship, and hung. But that won't happen. It will be 3-4 years before He goes to trial and another 10-20 before he is executed if by some chance he is given the death penalty.

[Oberon]

Can't skip due process just because it's unpopular. :03:

[Jimbuna]

Well he didn't last long.

[Skybird]

Since he is a U.S. citizen, He should be tried for treason, stripped of his citizenship, and hung. But that won't happen. It will be 3-4 years before He goes to trial and another 10-20 before he is executed if by some chance he is given the death penalty.
Instead of people like him being called US citizens with an Afghan migration background, I tend to think of such people as - in this case - Afghans with US papers. In some way this changed wording ilustrates what it is about.

I disagree with those "pragmatic socialists" wanting to make people believe that nationality is only about a bureaucratic formality. The important point is biographically grown identity. And that cannot be switched from green to yellow just by putting a stamp onto some official papers. A stamp is just a stamp and a paper is just a paper. But felt identity and felt belief is somethign that breathes a life of its own, so to speak, and for Islamic people, if they really are that: truely Islamic, nationality is meaningless anyway, for what supercedes state order is Shariah anyway. That is something that many politicians and left sympathisers just do not want to understand, for it spoils their claim that all people are equal and principally the same. They are not. The differences are immense. To reduce ethnic and cultural major differences to the level of profance bureaucratic formalities is a way to deny the existence of fundamental differences. But identity is not that arbitrary. It is the result of a biographic past. You can try to ignore the past. But it nevertheless makes itself felt.

And no, we are not all of the same "value". By far not. And there are quite some without whom the world man lives in would be much better off.

[MaDef]

Can't skip due process just because it's unpopular. :03:
I wasn't suggesting that, just voicing my frustration @ the U.S. government that is going to bend over backward to convince everyone that this as an isolated incident in an effort to not offend Muslims and to appear tolerant to the rest of the planet.

[Oberon]

I wasn't suggesting that, just voicing my frustration @ the U.S. government that is going to bend over backward to convince everyone that this as an isolated incident in an effort to not offend Muslims and to appear tolerant to the rest of the planet.


https://67.media.tumblr.com/f6251497804088ae69f3066479a84037/tumblr_nsmxfqI3bd1qkko3bo1_400.gif

[MaDef]

Not bait, You call it a war on terror, yet refuse to prosecute it as such. And for that reason you won't/can't win.

[Oberon]

Fair enough, that's your opinion and you are free to have it.

[Von Due]

Perhaps have a chat with your local officials before booking tickets to Tunisia, if the sources are correct
http://en.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13950629001226

Exactly what Tunisia and Libya need right now, a flaring up of violence :down:

On somewhat the same theme
http://en.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13950629001248

Kind of interesting to know they mention that, according to this source, this drone could not have been made by ISIS given the technological complexity. Keep in mind that Fars News is Iranian and while they too are fighting ISIS, they are also supporting Assad in Syria, and Russia's involvement, while at the same time being vocal in their claims that the US is behind ISIS. It's not like Hobby King refuse to sell rc parts to paying customers if those customers were named Yussuf and Muhammud and ISIS do have educated people in their ranks, people with degrees in what people do get degrees in at Universities. Still, one that can't be brushed off entirely, just have that grain of salt nearby. At least it goes to show what a mess the whole Syrian conflict is.

[Skybird]

what a mess the whole Syrian conflict is.
Most complex and complicated modern conflict there has been so far. Over 100 factions having their hands in it: nations, militias, organisations, groups...

In words again: over one hundred.

Or as some analyst put it some weeks ago: the Syria conflict is tried to be pushed into 30 different directions for 30 different wishes for its outcome simultaneoulsy.

Motivation ranges from brandnew animosities between two players, to hostilities between some tow others ranging back over one thousand years.

To call all that a "mess", somewhat is an understatement. :) I think we do not yet have an adequate word for a mess like this.

[Von Due]

I think we do not yet have an adequate word for a mess like this.

That's the truth right there.

[em2nought]

That's the truth right there.

Immikrieg? :up:

[Oberon]

I think there are words for it, but they probably can't be used here.

[mapuc]

Have through Danish news channel heard Russia are sending their carrier kuznetsov to the coast of Syria.

I can't let go of the feeling
They didn't sent the Kuznetsov to give more military air support to Assad. They sent the carrier to give USA a political wink

Markus

[Oberon]

Thought that deployment was being delayed? That's what they said two days ago, due to 'unspecified reasons' but suspected pilot shortages for the MiG-29KR.
The Kuznetsov is pretty out of date anyway, and in need of frequent repair and refits, there's supposed to be a big one happening next year to extend her service life another 25 years but Russia really needs to build another carrier if they want to stay in the carrier game.

[Mr Quatro]

Thought that deployment was being delayed? That's what they said two days ago, due to 'unspecified reasons' but suspected pilot shortages for the MiG-29KR.
The Kuznetsov is pretty out of date anyway, and in need of frequent repair and refits, there's supposed to be a big one happening next year to extend her service life another 25 years but Russia really needs to build another carrier if they want to stay in the carrier game.
They'll probably sell it to India anyway :yep:

[Skybird]

They sent the carrier to give USA a political wink
The US or British navy winks back by sending a sub. ;)

[Von Due]

This little story caught my eye, about 2 women arrested in Saudi Arabia for being members of Al Qaeda:
http://www.arabnews.com/node/987891/saudi-arabia

Especially the last bit:
They were released the first time due to the intercession of several Al-Qassim notables with the minister of interior, asking him to release them and promising that they would not commit similar acts again.
News of their new arrest came as a shock to the notables who did not expect them to go back to their old ways.

Uuuh... right. If not the entire Saudi Govt support Al Qaeda then those notables there sure have a lot of saying. Lobbyism level Super Pro. Interesting too that they were Al-Qassim notables seeing Al-Qassim is the center for Salafism as well as a key supporter area for the Saudi royals all while being the spiritual home of anti Saud groups. The House Of Saud really could do with some house cleaning it seems. Someone in that house doesn't like daddy the king.

[August]

The US or British navy winks back by sending a sub. ;)

As my Submariner buddy likes to say:

"There are two kinds of ships at sea, Submarines and Targets"!

[Jimbuna]

Syria conflict: New air strikes on Aleppo as offensive launched

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-37449968

It just keeps getting worse :nope:

I must say that I admire the stance John Kerry took when in a recent meeting attended by the Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/kerry-syria-i-feel-i-m-parallel-universe-russia-s-n651891

[Von Due]

I must say that I admire the stance John Kerry took when in a recent meeting attended by the Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/kerry-syria-i-feel-i-m-parallel-universe-russia-s-n651891

Another side of that story, this time from one of Moscow's merry mouthpieces, Russia Today.
https://www.rt.com/op-edge/360283-un-kerry-lavrov-syria/
Handle with care, but it's interesting to see how it's presented "on the other side" or rather, "from the other side".

[Skybird]

The difference between the two (men and countries alike) is that the one is willing to do whatever needed to fight a war to a victorious end that is killing as many enemies as possible - no matter what -, while the other allows more moral concerns coming into his way, hindering him. I think the West also allows itself more illusions about Syria.

I also assume if the West would not have gone into Syria and would have let Russia have its Chechnya-proven ways, the country by now probably would be wrecked, but the majoirty of regime-hostile militias and factions already being defeated and driven out, or destroyed. And that a miltia is hostile to the regime, does not automatically make it compatible with the West.

I do not say Russia's ways are more honest or humane. They play brutal since that is how you win wars, and they play foul since it makes sure they get their way, and the time they need. But I say I doubt that the Western views and interventions do that ammount of good that the West claims it intends. As I see it somebody repeats the same mistake here that he has done when wanting to remove Saddam for principle moral reasons - while ignoring pragmatic reality. It would have been better to leave PITA Saddam where he was. And to leave Assad in place as well. No ideal soltuions, but the pragmatically most desirable solutions.

I think the Western masterminds have no realstic clue at all what to get in syria if they would indeed defeat Assad and drive the regime out. I predict things would become much, much worse then, with all those Assad-hostile militias declaring victory and taking over control - and right starting the next civil war for power immedately after Assad's fall. The well-meaningness of aid organisations will have no meaning and relevance, that is for sure.

German news today said last Russian election statistics allow conclusions on that the number of Russian troops standing in Syria is probably much higher than formally announced by Russia, or estimated in the West.

[Jimbuna]

Syria conflict: New air strikes on Aleppo as offensive launched

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-37449968

It just keeps getting worse :nope:

I must say that I admire the stance John Kerry took when in a recent meeting attended by the Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/kerry-syria-i-feel-i-m-parallel-universe-russia-s-n651891

UN officials are now saying that the recent attack on a convoy and daily airstrikes on hospitals and civilians could amount to war crimes.

[Skybird]

How to discriminate between "civilian" and "military" there?

What happens there, follows war's logic. That is not "nice" (Nancy Reagan), but then it also is not peace. Don't expect scenes from a picnic on the meadow when watching scenes of a hot war zone - especially when civilians and fighters live side by side, and live and use the same infrastructure (or what is left of it).

[Jimbuna]

So what of the hospitals?

Nobody knows the coordinates of such large buildings?

[Skybird]

Do you think hospitals do no treat fighters, do not need to share supplies with combat factions?

Why do you think have the Syrians pressed so hard to destroy the water supply in and to Aleppo? Where do you think do the fighters in Aleppo get their water from - do they maintain their own water supply network separate from that for the civilian population?

Where do you think do they hide, their fighters, their equipment, ammunition, weapns - if not in the cellars and buildings that from the city of Aleppo?

Its a war. Without taking any side here, i point out this: that the Syrians and Russians bomb Alleppo like crazy is because their enemies are in Aleppo and try to hold the city. If these militias would give up the city and pull out, or surrender, they might not be able to continue the war, might even suffer assassination if they allow to go into captivity - but their mere presence is the reason why the city gets destroyed and civilians get killed. If they want to save the civilians, they have to stay away from them, and away from civilian infrastructure.

That might not be in their military interest. But it also is not in the military interest of Russia and Assad to let them use and benefit from civilian hideouts and infrastructure without reacting to that. A water supply that supplies the fighter sof the enemy, is a tagert. Hospitals that treat fighters or share supplies with them, or get blackmailed to do so, are targets. Thats the simple cruel truth.

Its sometimes was said in past years that Western militaries should not target mosques. But all too often we have seen enemies hiding in mosques and stockpiling supplies there and opening fire from there, thinking the "holy" ground gives them immunity. My reasoning is different here. Enemy hides in mosque, operates and fires from there? Flatten that thing just like any other and bury the enemy in its rubble. Battle won, tactical problem solved.

War's logic. You do not win war by saving the enemy and allowing him to hide.

A war crime it is then when the civilian population gets intentionally targetted as the primary target, for the sake of wanting to kill the civilian population, not the military target in its middle.

I also think it is quite a bit about psycho warfare and demoralization if "civilian" areas get bombed. Lets not forget that the population of Aleppo is not friendly towards the Assad regime, already was not friendly before the war.

[Jimbuna]

So you would advocate hospitals being exempted from the Geneva Convention should either side believe them to be treating wounded, whether military or otherwise?

Bit of a broad brush statement there Sky and thankfully one that isn't adopted by many in the west.

[Nippelspanner]

treating wounded =/= hostilities.
and doctors around the world swear to aid those who need it - their allegiance doesnt matter.

so yeah, lets bomb them...?

[HunterICX]

So you would advocate hospitals being exempted from the Geneva Convention should either side believe them to be treating wounded, whether military or otherwise?

Bit of a broad brush statement there Sky and thankfully one that isn't adopted by many in the west.

Geneva Convention and War never mixed and never will.

While it may not be adopted in the West directly they yet keep backing these ''Terrorist'' Organizations who fight against Assad whil they shown themselves many times not to be any better the Daesh.

and speaking of such from back in 2014:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/syrias-hospitals-targeted-by-nato-backed-armed-groups/5363563

and 2015:

https://off-guardian.org/2015/11/04/on-targeting-hospitals-in-syria/

[Skybird]

Islamic fighters and Muslim armies never have adapted to the Hague Landwarfare Convention. ;) Some of our "allies" in syria have been rpeort5ed to take civilians and human shields, and having committed atrocities themselves. Thats the guys that our guys fight with, support from the air, or spend millions and millions on.

I always considered it to be an utmost hypocrisy of a very sickening form that we hail the treatment of wounded soldiers by altruistic sisters in hospital, just then to send them back to war as soon as possible, or allow the enemy to send his treated soldiers back to battle so that they can shoot our soldiers - or tapping ourselves on the shoulder for being so "noble" and willing to prolongue a war by saving the enemy. Romanticism of this kind is nice in sports and fair sportsmanship. But this here is about war. To think in terms of noblesse or sportsmanship about it, makes me sick.

If there is infrastructure that is of use to the fighting forces of the enemy, it is a target. If there are resources that can be of use to the enemy, they are a target. If the enemy hides himself in the middle of civilian society, the enemy nevertheless is a target. Should the other side stop fighting just becasue he hides inside civilian society?

If you are not willing to accept that war is a bloody, dirty, inhumane, brutal and unfair event - , then do not go to war. If you are not willing to get your hands dirty from dealing blood-dripping cards - then don't play.

You recall the Laconia incident, sure you do. It often gets debated whether the Allies were right to attack. I happen to belong to those saying they were right - in war time. It was a German U-boat, and it had the wepaons and the crew to sink Allied vessels and kill allied soldiers and sailors. Thus, it weas a target. In peace, it would have been something very different. But it was no peace. I totally reject to assess the needs of war by standards and ethical views basing on peace times, nor do I accept to judge peace time procedures by means designed to be run during war time. Its two totally different things.

If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. I wish we would have stayed out of Syria. Possible that the war already would have been over without Western and other supplies to fighting factions pouring in. But there we are, and we do not know what we really want there, and how to achieve what, and we do not get fully in and we do not want to get really out, and so the thing lasts on and on and on. In the end, there will either be a Russia-loyal regime that has ripped apart and drowned in blood the country (already now Syria will never be again what it was), or there will be an opposition waging war against itself after it sent Assad to hell and the Russians out, abusing and destroying the country even longer after Assad'S defeat, and this time Syria will get beaten up not in the name of Assad's and Russian interests, but "radical Islamists's " interest.

I pick no sides here on grounds of moral arguments, there are no moral arguments, becasue it is war. If you want to reduce the suffering of civilians, end the war. The best way to achieve that, is to stop all who suppoort the rbeels, and to see the Russians and Syrians defeating all militrary opposition as fast as possible. If you argue that you cannot allow a Russian victory or Assad to remain in power, and you keep the war running to prevent that - all your morally superior concerns over the civilians suffering, fly right out of the window.

[Skybird]

treating civilian wounded =/= hostilities.
and doctors around the world swear to aid those who need it - their allegiance doesnt matter.

so yeah, lets bomb them...?
Precised that for you. The enemy treating his wounded fighters, is a hostile act - it supplies him with fighters that sooner or later start firing bullets at your fighters again. You prefer your fighters dead or wounded just to save the enemy? Is this this strange reasoning on what is morally okay to feed the illsuion that war is anything but inhumane?

The nurses of this world did their share to keep wars running. Thats the grim truth. And who said a doctor's oath is stronger than the sword?

Everything that makes war less determined, helps to make it more agreeable. And by that you make it more likely, and you make it lasting longer - and by that in the end costing even more suffering.

The Russians have interests in syria. Assad is about his mere survival. Both will not stop, the West can appeal as much as it wants. The West is not willing to start a big world war with Russia over Syria. Regimes like China are not in favor of Western positions on syria either. We have no plan for any - unlikely - victory of our "allies".

We should not be in this match at all. But we insist on doing our share to keep the war going.

Just meaning things well, often lead to the worst of results. Thats why I always recommend sober, unsentimental reason, with no emotion-soaking illusions. All in all it works way better.

[Nippelspanner]

The enemy treating his wounded fighters, is a hostile act
No.

[Skybird]

No.

Oh yes.

Look up the meaning of "troops reinforcements", and "regrouping". It compares.

In net effect, in a raging war, these ^ are hostile acts as well. Seen from the enemy's POV.

---

Evening TV news over here: they said today the Syrian bunker busting bombs are used to crack up basements and cellars and subterranean tunnel networks the rebels are using to relocate under cover. Now you know why the Syrian air force destroys whole compartment blocks. Its about disrupting the freedom of movement for the enemy. The Israelis tried similiar things in Gaza.

[AndyJWest]

Any war fought on Skybird's principles isn't worth fighting. If you surrender your morality, there is nothing left...

[mapuc]

Been a while since my military days, I do remember our lesson in how to treat pow-and I remember clearly that a wounded pow should be treated like we would treat a wounded friend.

The only thing I can't remember is the answer to following question we were asked

In clash with a small enemy groups two in your group get killed and three get wounded. You have killed most of the enemies and have captured 5 whereof two of them are wounded-You have just enough medic care to take care of 3 person. And then some more.

Can't remember the answer
(sorry for this little derail)

Markus

[Nippelspanner]

Oh yes.

No.

There's a reason you don't shoot at those funny vehicles with red crosses.
Anything medical = non-combatants. And attending your wounded is NOT a hostile action. If they shoot at you, it is.
This is the same for irregular forces. Just because they don't follow any rules, regular forces still do (or at least have to).

AndyJWest has a point you know...

Also, don't try to explain how this works to those who actually did this for a living, Skybird.

[Skybird]

Any war fought on Skybird's principles isn't worth fighting. If you surrender your morality, there is nothing left...Oh, so a war is agreeable to you when we maintain the illusion that war can be turned into somehting more noble, romantic, humane!?

What you guys here say, is all very wellmeant, and academic. And cynical.

By the end of the day, with my reasoning - be hesitent to go to war, but if you do, then do it with everything you have - many of the wars and conflicts of the past 20 years would not have taken place, would not even have been started, especially 2003. The encouragements for the Arbab spring thgat turned into a nightmare by now, would not have been given. And the few conflicts I maybe would have agreed to nevertheless fight out, would not have ended as strategic defeats. The violence in Iraq qould be at the much lower levels of the dictatorship of Saddam'S reign, and Syria still would be a stable state, hostile to Israel, but predictable. There would have been no MB government in egypt. IS would not even exist. And in Afghanistan the hellfire would have contuinued to rain down until either all were dead or all "radicals" and wanted ones were handed over. The "alliance" with Saudi Arabia and Quatar, two very ruthless actors in syria, btw, would not be what it is today, maybe would not even exist anymore. Mayn people now dead or being crippled from tirture, would still be alive, or would be unhamred. Cities would stand where now there is only rubble. And no European dependency on Erdoghan.

Now compare that with the results of the always cautious, always concerned, always humane policies that in reality has been run n these 20 years. Its a mess. A MESS.

Next you tell me we should seize fire for 8 hours a day to allow the enemy to get some healthy sleep, and to pay his family compensation when we kill him!? Oh wait, in Afghanistan they repeatedly have done right this.

You can leave a wounded enemy alone if he is so heavily wounded that it is clear he will never join combat or train recruits again anymore. But if you see he will recover and then start killing your buddies in you company again and dropping bombs on you, or teaching his recruits how they could kill you and letting them profit from his experience, and you let him escape so that he can recover indeed, then you are a foolish idiot. And a murderer of your own people.

When you fight, do it with all you have, there is no such thing as disproportional or excessive firepower. There is only sufficient or insufficient firepower, and the will to crush the enemy - or the lack of such will.

See where all your concerns have lead the West in the past wars. Defeats. Strategic defeats weakening our stand in the world, and strengthening those powers that are hostile to us. That is the result of your always concerned, always want-to-be-noble policies. It works ruinous.

Save the enemy, and he eats you up. That simple it is. Especially when he is fighting for religious fanatism or does not share your culturally founded reasoning of how to keep your war clean and tidy.

And do not anyone come with telling me if I fight with determination then I am not better than the other guy. I did not tell the other guy to go to war against me, and I reserve EVERY means I deem needed to not only defend myself but to make sure the other thinks twice before he ever feels tempted again to go to war against me a second time - if he stills exists after I am done with him, that is. I do not wage a war for some idiotic political spelling exercise, and I certainly do not do it to help my industry securing wanted resources on another continent that are not mine, or to help out a terror regime I allowed to be "allied" with. If you do not fight a war in order to destroy the enemy once and forever, then you have no point and better should go home.

But make sure, for heaven's sake, that the reasons why you accept to fight a war , do hold their ground before your conscience. If they cannot hold their ground before your consience, you end up in your own self-made hell.

Samurai understood this determination. Romans did. Our forefathers during WWII did. But Westerners today - hopeless.

Be choosy and extremely hesitent to start wars. But if you end up in one, then let all helfire rain down on your enemy. The record of Western forces in the past 25 years, is anything but impressive. The major wars fought in that time, ended in strategic defeats that benefitted our enemies.

We have become experts for loosing wars. Not militarily, but politically and for humanitarian concerns. And while we allowed to fail this way, we have not contained but increased the ammount of suffering and the duration and scale of follow-up conflicts.

And we still run around, proud of ourselves and our precious concerns and hesitations and indifference. The price of our failures gets paid by others. How great we are! How noble! How - romantic!

During the seige of Alesia, Ceasar build a double wall around the place, one wall of 16km length facing the besieged town, and the outer ring of 21 km length pointing outwards, keepign away Gaul reinforcements. The besieged Gauls send out their women and children, and into the no-mans land separating Romans and Gaul. They thought the Romans would care for them, allowed to get distracted and weakned by caring for them, and allowing to share their supplies with them, reducing their military options. Ceasar rejected to do so, and left the people were they were. He won.

What would you have done?

When Richard I. landed in the "holy" land, and was about embarking towards Jeruslem, he had a huge ammount of prisoners taken in short battles before. When he left I think Akkon, he gave order to exceute them all, and so it was done. The reason was a military one. His force was relatively small, a huge battle was ahead, his supply lines were terribly long and vulnerable, and his supplie sin stock were limited. He could not afford to supply several hundred prisoners, and he could not afford to shrink his army even more by leaving behind a garrison to guard the prisoners, which were 800 or 1800 I think. If the prionsers would overwhelm their guardians, Ruichard all of a sudden would have had a strong Muslim army in front of him, and a significant enemy military force in his rear. Releasing them would have meant to meet them again on the battlefield. And so - heads off.

What would you have done?

When the German submarine radioed into the world they had survivors of the Laonia in tow, the Allies decided to not help, but to bomb the UBoat. A German Uboat was a potent threat, it could have sunk Allied troops, sailors, and many more ships, and killed many hundreds, if not thousands of passengers.

What would you have done?

15 or 20 years ago the Israelis knew that the UN observers monitoring the disputed Northern border areas, were sending their reports on Israeli activities and troop movements without encryption, so that Israels enemy could read them and so got first hand intel on what the Israelis were up to. The result was warning fire going down on UN positions and Israeli tanks ramming Finish IFVs and UN vehicles off the road and some of these posts later had to be given up by the UN. The UN deliberately rejected to use radio encryption initially, it wanted to take sides here - with Israeli's enemies. And the Israelis did not accept that.

What would you have done?

During the Gaza war 2006, the enemy was operating via a massive system of subterranean tunnels, and maintaned bases, stockpiled ammo and supplies and ran firing positons in basements and cellars, under Kinderärten and hospitals and schools. Intentionally so, so to force Israel if it would fire at them it would need to accept causing civilian casualties as well. Israel resisted for long time international pressure and nevertheless accepted collateral damages and continued to systemtically destroy the militarily relevant infrastructure and logistcs network, as well as bridges, powerlines and waterpipes. For the same reason, Israel blocks certain goods that could be used for rebuilding these infrastructures, from entering Gaza until today.

What would you have done?

You are in a war. You guard a hospital with wounded own soldiers and wounded experienced enemy special commandoes. You get under attack, here is a risk that the prisoners can flee and either tell the enemy high command the secret information they obtained, or they could tell the young recruits about your tactics and combat methods so that they can ambush you more easily and kill your troops, or they recover, return to combat and start killing your troops again and sabotage your infrastructure and supply lines. I say: do not let them escape, but kill them.

What do you do?

You are in command of a small infantry force on the ground, you are isolated, ammo is short, water and food is rare. You have a group of as many prisoners, enemy fighters, they eat and drink as much as your own people do, and you always need to keep some of your few soldiers behind to guard them whenever you get contact to the enemy and end up in a firefight. You lose this, because you have those prisoners, your troops die because of them, there is no way to make it home with those prisoners in tow. You know nothign about them, they may be dangerous lethal specialists or not, they may have gathered secret infiormation about your side or not - you do not know. Its war, and all around are people are hanging at each other's throats and try to blow stuff and people up.

WHAT DO YOU DO ?

[Nippelspanner]

Oh boy.

[Skybird]

Yes, "oh boy". War sucks. Better stay out if you do not have a damn good reason to get involved.

[Jimbuna]

I don't think it acceptable regardless of any set of circumstances for any side to deliberately target civilians wherever they may be located or whichever side they support.

TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT

What we are seeing daily on our news feeds is systematic genocide, massive overkill by forces bent on the total annihilation of a city and its inhabitants by a mad man who has no hesitation in using outlawed weapons on his own people to further his aims, aided and abetted by a superpower who are led by a democratically elected dictator who is hell bent on making his country as strong as he perceived it to be in the eighties, despite the fact a sizeable proportion of the world have instigated economical sanctions which are slowing 'tanking' his countries economy as a result.

Neither side is correct but surely a blind man on a galloping horse can see the disproportionality of the methods used by one of the sides!!

[Skybird]

I don't think it acceptable regardless of any set of circumstances for any side to deliberately target civilians
Nowhere ever I have said one should target civilians deliberately. As a matter of fact I said exactly the opposite - and labelled doing the above a war crime somehwere above.

;)

Ah, here it was:
A war crime it is then when the civilian population gets intentionally targetted as the primary target, for the sake of wanting to kill the civilian population, not the military target in its middle.What I say is the presence of civilians, or of infrasturtcure that dual-serves both civilian and military usage, cannot necessarily be a reason to stop fighting and firing at the enemy and target the enemy. We call that by this sober, clinical term "collateral damage". It is no wanted in the first killing of civiolians, but it is militarily accepted as event taking place as a side effect.

Intentionally wanting to kill civilians as the primary target, and accepting harm to civilians as a side effect of combat action against the enemy, are two different things. Its not nice, none of the two, but thats how it is with war: stuff gets destroyed and people get killed, and often innocent ones get caught in the crossfire. that is neither fair, nor just. that is what happens in war. Chaos.

There are no ways to have a surgically clean, fair and just war. That is a most dangerous, pursuading illusion. There is no such thing like a "just war". I only differer between wars of needs and wars of desires. the first must be waged and won, no matter what. The second must be avoided and refused - again, no matter what.

The nicier people think war is, the easier they agree to have another one.

The bombing in Aleppo, most likely is about both: demoralizing the civilian population by intentionally targetting the civilians with the goal to kill civilians, as well as destroying the rebel-used infrastructure and hideouts and killing their fighters. In other words we see both there: war crimes as well military targetting. Want to keep the two events separate? Good luck. Assad already was a slaughterer before.

[Jimbuna]

[U][I]Nowhere ever I have said one should target civilians deliberately.

Didn't say you did.

I am saying the Assad regime and Russians are.

[Skybird]

Didn't say you did.

I am saying the Assad regime and Russians are.

Very much most likely they do. The problem is you cannot easily say from outside what was the intention behind this or that attack. When they collapse an appartment building, it might have been because the tunnels and the stockpiled supplies underneath it - but others will insist on calling it a deliberate attack on civilians, and they ignore the military relevance of the target. The same kind of attack on another building maybe was exactly the other way around: while it is claimed it was about the tunnels, Russian intel may have known that the tunnels never made it to that building and that the supply point in its basement was dismantled already 4 weeks ago.

We cannot see the truth from the outside. We should not form opinions just on the basis of media reports and pictures - or propaganda from both sides. Saudi Arabia and Quatar, allies of the US as well as many rebel groups, play extremely dirty and also deliver quite modern firearms into Syria, too - like Russia, Iran do in support of the Assad regime. There are hardly innocent, just combat factions in Syria. They all have dirt on their hands. All.

[Oberon]

Oh boy.

Daeshtastic. :subsim:

[MaDef]

Looks like it might be time to spin this particular topic into it's own thread.

Skybird I happen to agree with you to a point, war certainly is a dirty,nasty & ugly business where civilians get killed & maimed in the crossfire, and because of this it should be used as a last resort.

The Geneva Conventions, while laudable, are really just men putting "lipstick on a pig" in an attempt to make war palatable.

If you'all want a "civilized" war, you need to take up chess.

[Rockstar]

Saw this on RT.

"Aleppo, is the largest city in Syria and is also the largest unbombed builtup area the enemy has got. In the midst of winter with refugees pouring westward and troops to be rested, roofs are at a premium, not only to give shelter to workers, refugees, and troops alike, but to house the administrative services displaced from other areas."

Sounds like a good reason to bomb the crap out of the city. Dont you think?

[Rockstar]

Looks like it might be time to spin this particular topic into it's own thread.

Skybird I happen to agree with you to a point, war certainly is a dirty,nasty & ugly business where civilians get killed & maimed in the crossfire, and because of this it should be used as a last resort.

The Geneva Conventions, while laudable, are really just men putting "lipstick on a pig" in an attempt to make war palatable.

If you'all want a "civilized" war, you need to take up chess.

:up:

or stick to their first person shooters, strategic games and those ever so realistic graphics. Then when they're done they can go to bed and dream of all the medals they were awarded as they worked to get high score.

[Skybird]

Saw this on RT.

"Aleppo, is the largest city in Syria and is also the largest unbombed builtup area the enemy has got. In the midst of winter with refugees pouring westward and troops to be rested, roofs are at a premium, not only to give shelter to workers, refugees, and troops alike, but to house the administrative services displaced from other areas."

Sounds like a good reason to bomb the crap out of the city. Dont you think?
Sounds comparable to the reasons why the Allies decided to carpetbomb Dresden in WWII. The Wehrmacht used Dresden as a logistical hotspot and administrative centre, and troops were shuttled in and out through it.

[mapuc]

Yesterday I saw and heard a female Journalist live on Danish news program saying

It seem like there's no solution to a ceasefire, so it seems the only way to stop this, is to wage war against Syria and Russia

When she said this-My thought was-so are this civil war in Syria going to set the world on fire ?
Then I remembered Ukraine and how near a war we was then and it all cooled down after a while.

Markus

[Rockstar]

Well, to be honest I took that from a memo published to airmen of the RAF before they bombed Dresden. I just changed the name of the city from Dresden to Aleppo.

War when fought should be fought to disuade an enemy from ever thinking to rise up again. Sherman called this "hard war" the South never rebelled again and neither did Dresden or Tokyo.

But why we are over there fighting a proxy war with Russia is beyond me.

[Nippelspanner]

Sherman called this "hard war" the South never rebelled again and neither did Dresden or Tokyo.
Apples and Oranges.
Dresden and Tokyo were cities full of civilians.
They didn't "rebel", they were just on the losing side of the conflict.
The "uprising enemy" you're talking about was military personnel, not civilians trying to get by, which you don't seem to understand or deliberately won't differentiate - which brings us back to war crime debates.