2016 US Presidential election thread

[Takeda Shingen]

To return this thread to topic after the detour to troll-town, let us pick up at the last salient remarks.

One would hope at some point someone would take his twitter away from him. :hmmm:

His campaign staff has evidently tried time and time again to wrest Twitter away. He just keeps getting his hands back on the phone. It would seem we're in for a future of laughably juvenile tweet barrages. Your President, ladies and gentlemen.

Well, not yours specifically. You've got your own insane clown posse.

[August]

...troll-town...

I knew you wouldn't be able to let go without a parting dig.

Your President, ladies and gentlemen.

Well, not yours specifically. You've got your own insane clown posse.

Sounds like you brought troll-town with you.

[AVGWarhawk]

To return this thread to topic after the detour to troll-town, let us pick up at the last salient remarks.



His campaign staff has evidently tried time and time again to wrest Twitter away. He just keeps getting his hands back on the phone. It would seem we're in for a future of laughably juvenile tweet barrages. Your President, ladies and gentlemen.

Well, not yours specifically. You've got your own insane clown posse.

I guess it is safe to assume that PC is not something the American people will not experience with Trump. Kind of refreshing and fun. :) Twitter away....

[Takeda Shingen]

I guess it is safe to assume that PC is not something the American people will not experience with Trump. Kind of refreshing and fun. :) Twitter away....

Alternatively,

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/28/why-a-weekend-of-raging-trump-tweets-should-give-us-pause.html

Trump tweets to obscure. So instead of talking about about his substantial conflicts of interest, or his courting of Petraeus for Secretary of State, or his now-stated intention of keeping large parts of the ACA instead of blind repeal we're talking about things like the president quoting InfoWars and lashing out at the cast of Hamilton.

It certainly is a distinct possibility and would go a long way in understanding Trump's actions during the campaign. Rather than talk about substance the discussion was about Trump's crazy antics. It fired up his supporters while at the same time serving as distraction from the fact that the Great White Savior of America has no plan.

[AVGWarhawk]

the Great White Savior of America has no plan.

What was the plan for the last 8 years? :hmmm: Skate through and have Hillary elected? The skating through worked well. Not so much for Hillary. NONE had any plans and haven't for years. All we hear is "I have a plan." There is no plan, never was from either candidate and we as Americans expect as much.

[Takeda Shingen]

What was the plan for the last 8 years? :hmmm: Skate through and have Hillary elected? The skating through worked well. Not so much for Hillary. NONE had any plans and haven't for years. All we hear is "I have a plan." There is no plan, never was from either candidate and we as Americans expect as much.

How does someone who has spent so much time ranting about the ACA suddenly turn around now and say that there was no plan in the past 8 years?

[AVGWarhawk]

How does someone who has spent so much time ranting about the ACA suddenly turn around now and say that there was no plan in the past 8 years?

Because each and every election plans are promised and the out comes are totally different. Close Gitmo, pull troops from Iraq and the like. Hope and Change was the plan. Many campaign promises are made however once the candidate is made official by each party the secure briefings begin. The tune changes once the reality of the situation is truly known. In Trumps case it did not sink in until a meeting with BO for over 90 minutes. His plan is to make America great again. He'll work it like BO has done for 8 years...

[Takeda Shingen]

Because each and every election plans are promised and the out comes are totally different. Close Gitmo, pull troops from Iraq and the like. Hope and Change was the plan. Many campaign promises are made however once the candidate is made official by each party the secure briefings begin. The tune changes once the reality of the situation is truly known. In Trumps case it did not sink in until a meeting with BO for over 90 minutes. His plan is to make America great again. He'll work it like BO has done for 8 years...

So, there was a plan after all from the Obama administration. Now, yes, the black Kenyan Muslim homosexual who usurped the Throne of the Gipper brought America to ruin and enslaved the white race, but it was a plan.

A 40-foot-high, 2000 mile-long border wall payed for in its entirety by the Mexican government is the plan now. Of course, he's now saying that the wall is metaphorical. A wall in our hearts, if you will. A barrier inside of each of us to protect us from all of the brown scary things out there. A real plan, for real Americans. :har:

[AVGWarhawk]

So, there was a plan after all from the Obama administration. Now, yes, the black Kenyan Muslim homosexual who usurped the Throne of the Gipper brought America to ruin and enslaved the white race, but it was a plan.

A 40-foot-high, 2000 mile-long border wall payed for in its entirety by the Mexican government is the plan now. Of course, he's now saying that the wall is metaphorical. A wall in our hearts, if you will. A barrier inside of each of us to protect us from all of the brown scary things out there. A real plan, for real Americans. :har:

Yes, there was plans then for BO and also for Trump now. A majority of BO plans were unobtainable much like Trumps. You may portray it any why you like but at the end of the day getting any plan accomplished in DC is very hard to impossible. But that is not the discussion. The discussion is Trump has no plan. He does but there are many others in government that will do what they can to stop any plans. This is typical of any presidency.

The orange pussy grabbing misogynist homophobic Devil will not usurp your world. The election is over. You and many others my not like it and that is fine. Many did not like BO and more so did not like Hillary. And so goes people, politics and the crappy media.

[Takeda Shingen]

Yes, there was plans then for BO and also for Trump now. A majority of BO plans were unobtainable much like Trumps. You may portray it any why you like but at the end of the day getting any plan accomplished in DC is very hard to impossible. But that is not the discussion. The discussion is Trump has no plan. He does but there are many others in government that will do what they can to stop any plans. This is typical of any presidency.

The orange pussy grabbing misogynist homophobic Devil will not usurp your world. The election is over. You and many others my not like it and that is fine. Many did not like BO and more so did not like Hillary. And so goes people, politics and the crappy media.

Small point here -- Obama is and was not born in Kenya, is not a Muslim and is not gay. Trump, on the other hand, is on record being cool with rape and is absolutely, undeniably orange.

As for the rest, we'll have to see what your savior can accomplish in the next two years. I suspect the midterms will serve as something of a restoration to the balance of power.

[nikimcbee]

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/681579053338394624/8UZsho0J.jpg (https://twitter.com/dory)

Just keep recounting.....recount.recount.recount. Just keep recounting til you get the result you want.

[Takeda Shingen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usrgPokuTG0

:har::up:

[AVGWarhawk]

Small point here -- Obama is and was not born in Kenya, is not a Muslim and is not gay. Trump, on the other hand, is on record being cool with rape and is absolutely, undeniably orange.

As for the rest, we'll have to see what your savior can accomplish in the next two years. I suspect the midterms will serve as something of a restoration to the balance of power.

Two Bears, perhaps you might step back from stating I believe Trump is my savior. In fact, that claim has no basis. If you do find a post stating that Trump is my savior you may continue to state that claim.

Funny part of that balance of power....take a look at the elections since BO has been president. Each time the power keeps swinging Republican. The final vote for president went Republican that swings the a majority of the power to Republican's. This was not some strange phenomena. The majority have voted it that way in local elections. Trump's campaign worked the electoral college to their advantage in the states that needed to swing his way. And they did in great numbers. That speaks volumes about the current direction the country has take in the past 8 years.

[Takeda Shingen]

Two Bears, perhaps you might step back from stating I believe Trump is my savior. In fact, that claim has no basis. If you do find a post stating that Trump is my savior you may continue to state that claim.

Funny part of that balance of power....take a look at the elections since BO has been president. Each time the power keeps swinging Republican. The final vote for president went Republican that swings the a majority of the power to Republican's. This was not some strange phenomena. The majority have voted it that way in local elections. Trump's campaign worked the electoral college to their advantage in the states that needed to swing his way. And they did in great numbers. That speaks volumes about the current direction the country has take in the past 8 years.

Then I guess there is no place for me left in this world. May your savior's wrath fall upon me. I mean, there is now, according to you, no way that people will ever oppose God Emperor Donald I's rule. That's it. Might as well call off all future elections.

[AVGWarhawk]

Then I guess there is no place for me left in this world. May your savior's wrath fall upon me. I mean, there is now, according to you, no way that people will ever oppose God Emperor Donald I's rule. That's it. Might as well call off all future elections.

Sigh......

[Takeda Shingen]

Sigh......

Now we're in agreement! I've been sighing too. Look, I understand that you're flying high. The Savior of White America has ascended to the Throne of the Gipper. McConnell and Eddie Munster have sworn their fealty to his administration. Looks like you'll have a 1000-year empire on your hands. But the only element of permanency in this world is, in fact, impermanence.

The pendulum will begin to swing the other way, and if you don't believe that then you are going to be in for some unpleasant surprises.

[Buddahaid]

Interesting to note that Republicans were in power during the years leading up to both world wars and when isolationist movements were strong, but Democrats came to power getting the job done.
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd52/sirwinpb/Album%20Three/Combined--Control_of_the_U.S._House_of_Representatives_-_Control_of_the_U.S._Senate.jpg

[AVGWarhawk]

Interesting to note that Republicans were in power during the years leading up to both world wars and when isolationist movements were strong, but Democrats came to power getting the job done.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Combined--Control_of_the_U.S._House_of_Representatives_-_Control_of_the_U.S._Senate.png

Interesting to note that Bin Laden and his buddies were well known during the Clinton administration. Vastly ignored. Following administration dealt with 9/11.

Of further note, do you think running into another war behind Russia during an election year is prudent to getting your selection(Hillary) elected? Certainly not. Russia is busy with that.

[Takeda Shingen]

Interesting to note that Bin Laden and his buddies were well known during the Clinton administration. Vastly ignored. Following administration dealt with 9/11.

Hmmm. Mmmm. Hmmmmmmmm........

Bill Clinton is responsible for Operation Cyclone. Another factoid of which I was not aware. Thanks Subsim!

[August]

The pendulum will begin to swing the other way, and if you don't believe that then you are going to be in for some unpleasant surprises.

Either the pendulum has swung with great speed or you don't know what you're talking about any more than you did a month ago when you said the GoP was a sinking ship.

He has to. As the de-facto leader of the Republican Party it is going to fall on him to try and salvage the sinking ship that is the GOP. That would include cutting the presidential candidate loose, seeing as he's the one that keeps drilling holes in the hull.

[Takeda Shingen]

Either the pendulum has swung with great speed or you don't know what you're talking about any more than you did a month ago when you said the GoP was a sinking ship.

I was wrong. See, I can admit that. But I am certain that the country is not bound exclusively to one political direction. Perhaps you are. You would be wrong in that case. Not that you'll admit to it.

[Buddahaid]

Interesting to note that Bin Laden and his buddies were well known during the Clinton administration. Vastly ignored. Following administration dealt with 9/11.

Of further note, do you think running into another war behind Russia during an election year is prudent to getting your selection(Hillary) elected? Certainly not. Russia is busy with that.

I didn't vote for Clinton, so in fact, not my selection. Anyway, the point is it seems to be the one big trend shown by the data.

[AVGWarhawk]

Hmmm. Mmmm. Hmmmmmmmm........

Bill Clinton is responsible for Operation Cyclone. Another factoid of which I was not aware. Thanks Subsim!

Help yourself to a loving spoonful:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/bill-clintons-terrorism-strategy-led-to-911-hillary-clintons-is-the-exact-same-thing/2016/09/12/5aca1ca4-78fa-11e6-beac-57a4a412e93a_story.html?utm_term=.749dade53301

[Takeda Shingen]

Help yourself to a loving spoonful:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/bill-clintons-terrorism-strategy-led-to-911-hillary-clintons-is-the-exact-same-thing/2016/09/12/5aca1ca4-78fa-11e6-beac-57a4a412e93a_story.html?utm_term=.749dade53301

But who armed them? :hmmm:

[AVGWarhawk]

I didn't vote for Clinton, so in fact, not my selection. Anyway, the point is it seems to be the one big trend shown by the data.

I did not suggest you voted Clinton. Don't care who voted for and none of my business. Your point is pointless. The data appears to look at the surface only. What precipitated before these administrations came in?

[AVGWarhawk]

But who armed them? :hmmm:

Russia loves to sell weapons.

[Takeda Shingen]

I did not suggest you voted Clinton. Don't care who voted for and none of my business. Your point is pointless. The data appears to look at the surface only. What precipitated before these administrations came in?

Now that's disingenuous. If the data were inverted you all would be shouting it from the proverbial rooftops. Instead said data says something contrary to your world view, so it must be wrong.

[Takeda Shingen]

Russia loves to sell weapons.

Russia armed them? In their fight against the Russians? Are you sure that you want that as your answer?

[AVGWarhawk]

Russia armed them? In their fight against the Russians? Are you sure that you want that as your answer?

Yep. We sell arms as well. What, you think arms from other countries simply stay with the country of origin and their soldiers? A few arms were sold to some dudes in Mexico. Those dudes killed used those guns to kill a few folks that gave them the guns. You must believe everyone is on the honor system.

[Takeda Shingen]

Look kids, I've got to get going. Wasted far too much time here today as it were. Don't fret. I'll be back at some point and we can all resume talking past each other to score meaningless internet points. At the suspension of play the score stands as follows:

Takeda: 175
AVGWarhawk: 156
Oberon: 122
Buddahaid: 110
August: -3

[August]

I was wrong. See, I can admit that. But I am certain that the country is not bound exclusively to one political direction. Perhaps you are. You would be wrong in that case. Not that you'll admit to it.

No I believe in the two party system but how can there ever be accord when your side continually promotes racial hatred and division?

[AVGWarhawk]

Now that's disingenuous. If the data were inverted you all would be shouting it from the proverbial rooftops. Instead said data says something contrary to your world view, so it must be wrong.

Two Bears, you are quite something to be able to read me like a book. You completely understand me in a few post exchanges. Thus far according to you Trump is my savior and if some data that I call out on as scratching the surface if inverted I would be screaming about it on the roof tops in joy.

Thanks for you time.

[Takeda Shingen]

Yep. We sell arms as well. What, you think arms from other countries simply stay with the country of origin and their soldiers? A few arms were sold to some dudes in Mexico. Those dudes killed used those guns to kill a few folks that gave them the guns. You must believe everyone is on the honor system.

I'll honor this last post of yours and then I am out, since we cross-posted.

So, the rise of these people and their accumulated power was based in Reagan-era arming, Bush and Clinton-era negligence and W-era military action. It's almost like everybody was and is to blame, not just those with whom we disagree.

[AVGWarhawk]

I'll honor this last post of yours and then I am out, since we cross-posted.

So, the rise of these people and their accumulated power was based in Reagan-era arming, Bush and Clinton-era negligence and W-era military action. It's almost like everybody was and is to blame, not just those with whom we disagree.

I agree, all play a part certainly. That is why I called out the data offered by Buddaid. To simply state wars are cause/started by republicans is not correct.

[Takeda Shingen]

No I believe in the two party system but how can there ever be accord when your side continually promotes racial hatred and division?

The way I see it, the left has been the driving force behind having this nation attempt to actually live up to its own stated ideals. It wasn't the right that pushed for the 13th, 14th, 15th, 19th and 24th Amendments. It was the left; the side that has always been about making the United States of America conform to those inalienable rights that are so frequently touted.

[August]

Look kids, I've got to get going. Wasted far too much time here today as it were. Don't fret. I'll be back at some point and we can all resume talking past each other to score meaningless internet points. At the suspension of play the score stands as follows:

Takeda: 175
AVGWarhawk: 156
Oberon: 122
Buddahaid: 110
August: -3


You forgot to score yourself. Here let me:

Two Bears - -10 point penalty for name calling and posting hypocrisy like this one.

[Takeda Shingen]

You forgot to score yourself. Here let me:

Two Bears - -10 point penalty for name calling and posting hypocrisy like this one.

I didn't miss myself. I'm in the lead. My scoreboard, so it is correct. :D

[AVGWarhawk]

I didn't miss myself. I'm in the lead. My scoreboard, so it is correct. :D

Spoken like a Trump. :har:

[Onkel Neal]

Hmmm. Mmmm. Hmmmmmmmm........

Bill Clinton is responsible for Operation Cyclone. Another factoid of which I was not aware. Thanks Subsim!

Hey! Don't take Subsim's name in vain. This is just the party plaza, we don't pick the music or the dancers.

[Jimbuna]

Look kids, I've got to get going. Wasted far too much time here today as it were. Don't fret. I'll be back at some point and we can all resume talking past each other to score meaningless internet points. At the suspension of play the score stands as follows:

Takeda: 175
AVGWarhawk: 156
Oberon: 122
Buddahaid: 110
August: -3

Good evening Tom, I trust all is well with you :salute:

[AndyJWest]

Is the GoP a sinking ship? Doesn't look like it. Seems to be steaming ahead at full speed, while the captain tweets about icebergs being a Chinese plot...

[AVGWarhawk]

Is the GoP a sinking ship? Doesn't look like it. Seems to be steaming ahead at full speed, while the captain tweets about icebergs being a Chinese plot...

:hmmm: Think it is possible? Let's see what the media has for us on that.:o

[Oberon]

I think the GOP can possibly starve off self-destruction (for now) in light of having got its candidate into the White House, rallying around the flag and defending their candidate right or wrong can be a unifying force. Equally, I think now the Dems are going to be knocked out of sync, trying to find a place for themselves in this new order, and wondering whether they should change or whether the fact that they got the popular vote means that they don't need to change as much. Then there's the gap between the Clintonite wing and the Bernie left which has yet to be resolved.
Basically, whoever lost this election is going to have to have a rethink of party strategy, I think the Dems could possibly avoid the sort of catastrophic explosion that was potentially waiting for the Republicans, but it's still going to take a fair bit of work.

[mapuc]

Can't remember when some expert on American politics said something about GOP in crisis and a GOP divided into two fraction would not be some "Fata Morgana"(= This Fata Morgana is my own words, I can not remember the words he used, but it's somehow in the same area)

Markus

[AVGWarhawk]

I think the GOP can possibly starve off self-destruction (for now) in light of having got its candidate into the White House, rallying around the flag and defending their candidate right or wrong can be a unifying force. Equally, I think now the Dems are going to be knocked out of sync, trying to find a place for themselves in this new order, and wondering whether they should change or whether the fact that they got the popular vote means that they don't need to change as much. Then there's the gap between the Clintonite wing and the Bernie left which has yet to be resolved.
Basically, whoever lost this election is going to have to have a rethink of party strategy, I think the Dems could possibly avoid the sort of catastrophic explosion that was potentially waiting for the Republicans, but it's still going to take a fair bit of work.

They will rethink electoral college removal and go by popular vote option. Why fix themselves when they can fix the system to their advantage instead? Much like redistricting counties within the state. Stacking the deck as it were.

[eddie]

I think the GOP can possibly starve off self-destruction (for now) in light of having got its candidate into the White House, rallying around the flag and defending their candidate right or wrong can be a unifying force. Equally, I think now the Dems are going to be knocked out of sync, trying to find a place for themselves in this new order, and wondering whether they should change or whether the fact that they got the popular vote means that they don't need to change as much. Then there's the gap between the Clintonite wing and the Bernie left which has yet to be resolved.
Basically, whoever lost this election is going to have to have a rethink of party strategy, I think the Dems could possibly avoid the sort of catastrophic explosion that was potentially waiting for the Republicans, but it's still going to take a fair bit of work.

We'll leave it up to the Republican controlled Congress to mess it up for the Republicans! I can't wait until they deregulate the banks again, I mean it worked out so well last time,LOL

[Buddahaid]

I did not suggest you voted Clinton. Don't care who voted for and none of my business. Your point is pointless. The data appears to look at the surface only. What precipitated before these administrations came in?

Strong isolationist movements, you know, America for Americans, etc. And just to put a Yubba slant on it, a "total rejection" of Republican ideals when at war. I'm being a devils advocate here.

[Bilge_Rat]

The way I see it, the left has been the driving force behind having this nation attempt to actually live up to its own stated ideals. It wasn't the right that pushed for the 13th, 14th, 15th, 19th and 24th Amendments. It was the left; the side that has always been about making the United States of America conform to those inalienable rights that are so frequently touted.

No, Lincoln, a Republican, pushed through the 13th amendment outlawing slavery. The Democrats were quite willing to leave slavery in place to end the War.

Better learn your history kid.

[Takeda Shingen]

No, Lincoln, a Republican, pushed through the 13th amendment outlawing slavery. The Democrats were quite willing to leave slavery in place to end the War.

Better learn your history kid.

I was hoping that someone would have posted this. Indeed the Republican Party, the Party of Lincoln, was on the side of abolition. They were referred to as the "Radical Republicans", not because they wore neon wrap-around sunglasses, which they most certainly did, but because their progressive social ideals were indeed radical for the time. The idea that people should not be considered property was indeed a leftist view of the day.

And so the Republican Party was the party of social progress, and remained that way until the civil rights era of the 1960's, at which time the old southern Democrats fled their party and were absorbed by the GOP. At that point the polarity of the parties began to shift, and those who were so once defenders of personal freedom became its chief opposition.

It is because of these facts that I view politics as a matter of progressive vs conservative rather than the myopic view of party vs party. The Republican Party of 1860 holds little in common with the Republican Party of 2016. Moreover, both the Republican and Democratic parties will dissolve one day, just at their predecessors have. What remains will be the endless push forward by the left and the endless resistance to that push by the right.

And so, I know my history. Evidently the parts that you were not aware of either. :know:

[Mr Quatro]

Remember after the last election? You know the one in 2012 when Obama beat Romney and the news media was proposing that would be the end of the GOP?

famous last words :yep:https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-end-of-this-gop-might-be-a-blessing/2016/03/04/0d60e26e-e24f-11e5-8d98-4b3d9215ade1_story.html?utm_term=.7cb7ce505875

I found this and it was March 4th this year with the same theme ... scroll down for the video of Romney telling everyone what he thinks of Donald Trump:

The end of this GOP might be a blessing

So it has come to this: a brokered convention or President Hillary Clinton.

These options seem to be what’s left to Republicans of conscience, who are, let’s face it, rather Romney-come-latelies to the pyre. They’re based on the following evidence: It is highly unlikely that Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio or John Kasich can wrest the nomination from Donald Trump, even though most polls show each of the three beating Clinton but Clinton beating Trump.

[Oberon]

They will rethink electoral college removal and go by popular vote option. Why fix themselves when they can fix the system to their advantage instead? Much like redistricting counties within the state. Stacking the deck as it were.

They thought about that here once, it never took off, doubt it will over there either. Chances are what will happen is that the Clinton and Bernie sides of the Dems will have a little power struggle and one of them will win. Same thing has happened over here and the Bernie side won it.

Republicans = Conservative party
Democrats = Labour party
Bernie-bros = Corbynites
Clintons = New Labour
Tea Party = UKIP

We went through this last year, it was thought that Labour might just clinch it, or perhaps there'd be a hung parliament, not many people saw a Tory majority coming. The Tories immediately set to trying to pander to their UKIP and Euro-sceptic wing, setting in motion the EU referendum which would bring us Brexit, whilst Labour collapsed into civil war between New Labour and 'Old Labour' under Jeremy Corbyn. Corbyn won the Labour leadership challenge, but has faced near constant power-struggles ever since and is currently set to lead the Labour party to their biggest defeat since Michael Foot and his 'Longest suicide note in history' of the 1980s.
Of interest though is what happened to UKIP after it had served its purpose, it has entered a period of turbulance, with Nigel Farage trying to resign and failing miserably, the party finances in disarray and a lot of people wondering what is the point of having it now. Whether this will change under Paul Nuttall who was elected new UKIP leader a few days ago, reminds to be seen, or whether UKIP will ultimately reject him as a leader since the entire system was built around one man, Farage, and seems to struggle to function without him.
Of course, it's questionable to say that Trump is from the Tea Party wing, certainly he shares some of their beliefs, or at least states that he does, but their main figurehead has been Ted Cruz. I guess a lot of it depends on what Trump decides to do, and how much of what he has promised he will actually deliver as to whether the Tea Party wing of the Republican party will support him.

[August]

What remains will be the endless push forward by the left and the endless resistance to that push by the right.

The left has never pushed anything forward, at least not anything good for the nation. They only pull to the left where equality is achieved by making everyone a slave to the state. The right has never pushed anything forward either but between them their polar opposition usually achieves enough of a balance to keep either one from pulling us all into the abyss.

[Takeda Shingen]

The left has never pushed anything forward, at least not anything good for the nation. They only pull to the left where equality is achieved by making everyone a slave to the state. The right has never pushed anything forward either but between them their polar opposition usually achieves enough of a balance to keep either one from pulling us all into the abyss.

I think that the abolition of slavery and the extension of voting rights to all people regardless of race, creed or gender were and are all very good things for the nation.

[AndyJWest]

I think that the abolition of slavery and the extension of voting rights to all people regardless of race, creed or gender were and are all very good things for the nation.

Indeed. And of course, the nation was created by radicals who opposed the colonial status quo.

[Onkel Neal]

Of course, it's questionable to say that Trump is from the Tea Party wing, certainly he shares some of their beliefs, or at least states that he does, but their main figurehead has been Ted Cruz. I guess a lot of it depends on what Trump decides to do, and how much of what he has promised he will actually deliver as to whether the Tea Party wing of the Republican party will support him.

I think that sums it up nicely. I did not want a Trump Presidency any more than I wanted Bill Clinton's wife elected. But we have him, and barring a recount miracle, we're stuck with him. Now, even though I think he is a classless huckster, many of the things he ran on and preached about, I agree with. So, if he delivers on his campaign promises, I will hold my nose and support him. At least he is moving in the right direction, that big mouth of his is producing results.

After Trump pledged to keep Carrier jobs in U.S, company says it won’t move nearly 1,000 to Mexico (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/11/29/donald-trump-has-reached-a-deal-with-a-manufacturer-to-keep-jobs-from-going-to-mexico/?utm_term=.f1ffd3daca69)

[Oberon]

A tale of two Roosevelts. :hmmm:

[August]

I think that the abolition of slavery and the extension of voting rights to all people regardless of race, creed or gender were and are all very good things for the nation.

They were only achieved because the political opposition forced the issue. Had the Democrats not started the Civil war there would not have been an Emancipation Proclamation or Reconstruction. I do think that slavery would eventually have died a natural death but it would have taken several decades.

[August]

Hey how come both Andy and myself quoted Two Bears but it's Takeda who made the post? What happened?

[Onkel Neal]

Hey how come both Andy and myself quoted Two Bears but it's Takeda who made the post? What happened?

Takeda returned to the forum but started a new account, Two Bears. He was open about it, he mentioned it in his Two Bears profile. I have merged his account and retained the working email address. He gets his seniority back now.

[August]

Takeda returned to the forum but started a new account, Two Bears. He was open about it, he mentioned it in his Two Bears profile. I have merged his account and retained the working email address. He gets his seniority back now.

Well that explains a lot.

[Takeda Shingen]

They were only achieved because the political opposition forced the issue. Had the Democrats not started the Civil war there would not have been an Emancipation Proclamation or Reconstruction. I do think that slavery would eventually have died a natural death but it would have taken several decades.

That's because the Democratic Party wasn't on the political left at the time. The Republican Party was. As I said to Bilge Rat, that changed during the 20th century with the Conservative Coalition starting in the late 30's and was pushed into high gear with the realignment elections that occurred after the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

As you can see, "left" and "right" transcend party. That I support the Democratic Party today is not a sign that I will support it tomorrow should their views change. It is also what Reverend Sharpton talked about during his convention speech in 2007 when he talked about "riding the donkey instead". The GOP, once the champions of civil rights, had turned their back on the movement, and the Democratic Party exodus resulted in a platform that was no longer hostile to minorities.

Hey how come both Andy and myself quoted Two Bears but it's Takeda who made the post? What happened?

I made the post, and every one that preceded it. In 2014 I came to the forum to post about Dovetail Games, the studio responsible for the popular Train Simulator series, possibly developing a spiritual successor to Microsoft's Flight Simulator series. I figured people would be interested given the stated nature of this website. The problem was that I had forgotten the password to the Takeda account, and the email to which the account was linked was defunct. So, I created the Two Bears account, announced myself on the forum and told the moderators exactly who I was and what I was doing here. For good measure I also included the information on my profile.

I didn't bother to bug anyone about getting the old account back. Didn't think it was all that important, as the moderators didn't seem to be troubled by it and I was entirely transparent about who I am. Seems they took it upon themselves to merge things in the end. And so here we are.

[Onkel Neal]

Well, anyway, welcome back.

[Takeda Shingen]

Thanks for the merge. Wasn't going to bother you about it. We're not exactly on good terms, you and I. Still, thanks again.

[Sailor Steve]

Welcome back. :sunny:

[Oberon]

As you can see, "left" and "right" transcend party.

To expand on my earlier comment, I was thinking about Theodore Roosevelt, often quoted as an example of a fine Republican president, yet I think that he would stand a lot further to the left of current Republican politics, perhaps even far enough left into a Democratic candidacy.
I think about his Progressive party movement, and how eventually a lot of its members wound up supporting FDRs New Deal Democratic movement. You could probably see a lot of similarity between the Roosevelts in that sense. I guess it helps that FDR married Theodores niece.

Honestly it strikes me, and this might be a bit of the liberal bias talking here so feel free to correct, but that the left has become the Progressive force in the US which finds itself at loggerheads with the more conservative right.
Which brings me to a question which has bugged me for a while now, and that's can Conservatism and Progressivism co-exist in a political entity? Or does the very idea of attempting to conserve something contradict the idea of progression? Certainly attempts of 'The Third Way' have tried to take a little bit out of both ideologies, but the current political scene seems to have created a rejection of this political experiment in favour of fortifying old positions.
I wonder if the time is right for a New 'New Deal'...? :hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

Hey how come both Andy and myself quoted Two Bears but it's Takeda who made the post? What happened?

You obviously never read my earlier post:

Good evening Tom, I trust all is well with you :salute:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2449350&postcount=4294


Welcome back Tom :salute:

[Dowly]

Or the scoreboard post, where Tak pretty much says who he is.

Good to see you come out of the closet, Tak. :up:



Wait... :hmmm:

[AVGWarhawk]

Or the scoreboard post, where Tak pretty much says who he is.

Good to see you come out of the closet, Tak. :up:



Wait... :hmmm:

DOH!

Welcome back Tak.

[AVGWarhawk]

I think that the abolition of slavery and the extension of voting rights to all people regardless of race, creed or gender were and are all very good things for the nation.

Absolutely 100% agree.

[Aktungbby]

I think that sums it up nicely. I did not want a Trump Presidency any more than I wanted Bill Clinton's wife elected. But we have him, and barring a recount miracle, we're stuck with him. Now, even though I think he is a classless huckster, many of the things he ran on and preached about, I agree with. So, if he delivers on his campaign promises, I will hold my nose and support him. At least he is moving in the right direction, that big mouth of his is producing results.

After Trump pledged to keep Carrier jobs in U.S, company says it won’t move nearly 1,000 to Mexico (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/11/29/donald-trump-has-reached-a-deal-with-a-manufacturer-to-keep-jobs-from-going-to-mexico/?utm_term=.f1ffd3daca69) Classless huckster indeed!:O: Gingrich says Trump got elected being "this unique, charismatic, entrepreneurial guy who breaks lots of rules" and that while he shouldn't give up tweeting, "he ought to have an editorial board in between the first draft and sending it." Gingrich—who describes Trump as "one-third Andrew Jackson in disruption, one-third Theodore Roosevelt in sheer energy, and one-third PT Barnum in selling all the time"—says Trump should continue refusing to hold press conferences because the news media "so totally disgraced itself in this election." Gingrich met with Trump at Trump Tower last week, and he says the president-elect told him: "This is really a bigger job than I thought."
CONCLUSION: the nation is in peril and there ain't no light at the end of the four-year tunnel...if it lasts that long...it's a bigger job than he can handle.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CM3GHyDUEAAbgWI.jpg

[August]

You obviously never read my earlier post:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2449350&postcount=4294

Yeah I guess I did or I would have had something to say about it then.

I had wondered why a new guy would act so rude and familiar with strangers and now I know. It's the same angry person who used to use his position as moderator to go after those that disagreed with him and finally had to leave under a cloud. I had enough of him then and I want nothing to do with him now but i would like to know if there are there any other former members hiding under aliases.

Is Tribesman still here under another name? How about Nipplespanner or any number of other hot heads and trolls that have rage quit over the years? I know Neal said that Takeda noted who he really was under his Two Bears profile but I rarely look at them and I suspect that's the case for a lot of other folks so i'd like to know and maybe they would too.

[AVGWarhawk]

After Trump pledged to keep Carrier jobs in U.S, company says it won’t move nearly 1,000 to Mexico (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/11/29/donald-trump-has-reached-a-deal-with-a-manufacturer-to-keep-jobs-from-going-to-mexico/?utm_term=.f1ffd3daca69)

It's a start. I'm sure there was a few concessions on Trumps part but the jobs of 1400 remain on US soil.

Of course the media states that any company that has planned to move jobs south of the border will be looking for concessions as well. I'm fine with that if jobs are kept here. Watching a program a few weeks ago of a GM plant closing and the many lives affected is very distressing. I hope to not find myself in similar situation although I survived a downsizing twice.

[AVGWarhawk]

Classless huckster indeed!:O: [COLOR=orange]CONCLUSION: the nation is in peril and there ain't no light at the end of the four-year tunnel...if it lasts that long...it's a bigger job than he can handle.


This is why it is important to surround himself with a cabinet of knowledgeable people. After all, Capt Kirk had his Spock. :D

[AVGWarhawk]

Yeah I guess I did or I would have had something to say about it then.

I had wondered why a new guy would act so rude and familiar with strangers and now I know. It's the same angry person who used to use his position as moderator to go after those that disagreed with him and finally had to leave under a cloud. I had enough of him then and I want nothing to do with him now but i would like to know if there are there any other former members hiding under aliases.

Is Tribesman still here under another name? How about Nipplespanner or any number of other hot heads and trolls that have rage quit over the years? I know Neal said that Takeda noted who he really was under his Two Bears profile but I rarely look at them and I suspect that's the case for a lot of other folks so i'd like to know and maybe they would too.

I do not look at profiles either. It would be a good idea to have those returning provided their original handle. The reason being if there was an issue in the past those involved in said spat could avoid posting or responding thus drudging up old problems.

Just one man's opinion.

[Jimbuna]

Yeah I guess I did or I would have had something to say about it then.

I had wondered why a new guy would act so rude and familiar with strangers and now I know. It's the same angry person who used to use his position as moderator to go after those that disagreed with him and finally had to leave under a cloud. I had enough of him then and I want nothing to do with him now but i would like to know if there are there any other former members hiding under aliases.

Is Tribesman still here under another name? How about Nipplespanner or any number of other hot heads and trolls that have rage quit over the years? I know Neal said that Takeda noted who he really was under his Two Bears profile but I rarely look at them and I suspect that's the case for a lot of other folks so i'd like to know and maybe they would too.

I do not look at profiles either. It would be a good idea to have those returning provided their original handle. The reason being if there was an issue in the past those involved in said spat could avoid posting or responding thus drudging up old problems.

Just one man's opinion.

I think the fairest answer to the above is to state that the forum rules do not allow anyone to have a second account.

Neal has publicly admitted to having one but that is solely for admin purposes.

I'm currently unaware of anyone having slipped through the detection measures the moderation team have at their disposal but there have been previous attempts at the above by more than one individual that were detected and those were quckly dealt with.

In fairness to Takeda, he did publish his true identity so all power to him, and Neal merged both accounts into the original (as Chris has already alluded to).

In closing I'll honestly admit I'm not the best at browsing through profiles and in this instance it was the content of a post that aroused my spider senses (pinched that one from Takeda a long time ago. Thanks Tom :03:) and set me on a mission with my personal additional MI5 piece of kit (Neals name for it not mine).

I hope that clears up everything and we can get back on topic.

[AVGWarhawk]

In fairness to Takeda, he did publish his true identity so all power to him, and Neal merged both accounts into the original (as Chris has already alluded to).



When and where was the true identity posted? After several exchanges between Tak(Two Bears) and myself? The post that concerned a scoreboard? I had completely forgotten Tak had left the forums and did not put two and two together. In my mind, Tak has already had a go around with a new member named Two Bears after reading a scoreboard. In other fairness, "riddle me this" is not fair.

[Jimbuna]

Takeda returned to the forum but started a new account, Two Bears. He was open about it, he mentioned it in his Two Bears profile. I have merged his account and retained the working email address. He gets his seniority back now.


When and where was the true identity posted? After several exchanges between Tak(Two Bears) and myself? The post that concerned a scoreboard? I had completely forgotten Tak had left the forums and did not put two and two together. In my mind, Tak has already had a go around with a new member named Two Bears after reading a scoreboard. In other fairness, "riddle me this" is not fair.

I never saw the profile information before the accounts were merged but Neal has posted the top quote.

[AVGWarhawk]

I never saw the profile information before the accounts were merged but Neal has posted the top quote.

The standing rule of no additional sign-ons should remain standing.

The second opinion of one man. :up:

[Onkel Neal]

Takeda was never banned. He should have emailed me and asked for a pw reset but he is not speaking to me so he made a new account and listed it as such. It was there on the Two Bears profile, that he was Takeda. Now he simply has one account again.

[Onkel Neal]

Yeah I guess I did or I would have had something to say about it then.

I had wondered why a new guy would act so rude and familiar with strangers and now I know. It's the same angry person who used to use his position as moderator to go after those that disagreed with him and finally had to leave under a cloud. I had enough of him then and I want nothing to do with him now but i would like to know if there are there any other former members hiding under aliases.

Is Tribesman still here under another name? How about Nipplespanner or any number of other hot heads and trolls that have rage quit over the years? I know Neal said that Takeda noted who he really was under his Two Bears profile but I rarely look at them and I suspect that's the case for a lot of other folks so i'd like to know and maybe they would too.

I disagree With your characterization that he"
used his position as a moderator to go after people". I think you and he had an arguement and I reversed his infraction to you.

[AVGWarhawk]

I don't read profiles with any regularity. Live and learn. :up:

[Onkel Neal]

And you should not be expecteded to. It would have been better if he had simply asked me to help reset his account.

[AVGWarhawk]

And you should not be expecteded to. It would have been better if he had simply asked me to help reset his account.

:up:

[Takeda Shingen]

When and where was the true identity posted? After several exchanges between Tak(Two Bears) and myself? The post that concerned a scoreboard? I had completely forgotten Tak had left the forums and did not put two and two together. In my mind, Tak has already had a go around with a new member named Two Bears after reading a scoreboard. In other fairness, "riddle me this" is not fair.

Here.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=214480

Even posted in the correct forum as per protocol. Hopefully this will satisfy the jury. Furthermore it was located in my profile for two years. No attempt to hide. Also, I was never asked to resign or leave the forum. Neal wanted me to stay on as moderator, but I refused due to the fact that there is a clear sliding scale in terms of how the rules are enforced. I won't be part of that. August is able to troll with impunity, but if someone takes his bait they get banned. No bueno.

So, with hopes that the trial is now concluded I will bid you gentlemen, and I am using the term very loosely here, adieu. I was up until this point interested in spending some more time with this community. You all have certainly cured me of that desire.

[Rockstar]

I blame those damn German Forty Eighters for introducing progressive ideology and politics into this country. :D

[Onkel Neal]

Ok, see you in a couple of years, don't forget to bring the drama :)

[Aktungbby]

Meanwhile getting back on thread: the claßleß huckster :o may inadvertently contribute to Whirled Peas: http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/napavalleyregister.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/5/c6/5c6f9ce1-73ce-5f0f-80f9-5560ad186f8e/583dbee056d9b.image.jpg?resize=750%2C588

[Mr Quatro]

Darn I'm too late and don't bring that guy in bed with all of his guns back either :o

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/58/4f/f9/584ff9097f918d5b600f65866c5dfd13.jpg

[Takeda Shingen]

Man, you know I can't walk away without doing that now.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/002/046/best_guy_ever.jpg

I think the funniest part of the whole thing is that he's neatly laid out his guns and ammo, but has also decided to include his Guitar Hero controllers.

[Mr Quatro]

Man, you know I can't walk away without doing that now.

I think the funniest part of the whole thing is that he's neatly laid out his guns and ammo, but has also decided to include his Guitar Hero controllers.

I knew you would take the bait :D Good-by old friend :salute:

[Takeda Shingen]

I knew you would take the bait :D Good-by old friend :salute:

Be well sir. :up:

[Reece]

No don't go I like to watch the fun!!:yep:

[August]

I disagree With your characterization that he"
used his position as a moderator to go after people". I think you and he had an arguement and I reversed his infraction to you.

Well it's still there in my profile, not that i have ever complained about it and I guess maybe my memory of the event is a bit tinged with the bias of having been the recipient of his ire. In any case it's water under the bridge as far as i'm concerned. I just like to know who i'm talking to and now I do.

There aren't more alias accounts are there?

[AVGWarhawk]

Here.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=214480

Even posted in the correct forum as per protocol. Hopefully this will satisfy the jury. Furthermore it was located in my profile for two years. No attempt to hide. Also, I was never asked to resign or leave the forum. Neal wanted me to stay on as moderator, but I refused due to the fact that there is a clear sliding scale in terms of how the rules are enforced. I won't be part of that. August is able to troll with impunity, but if someone takes his bait they get banned. No bueno.

So, with hopes that the trial is now concluded I will bid you gentlemen, and I am using the term very loosely here, adieu. I was up until this point interested in spending some more time with this community. You all have certainly cured me of that desire.

I don't frequent that forum page either. Sorry you will not participate any longer.

[u crank]

So, with hopes that the trial is now concluded I will bid you gentlemen, and I am using the term very loosely here, adieu. I was up until this point interested in spending some more time with this community. You all have certainly cured me of that desire.

That's too bad. A variety of opinions and ideas is a good thing. Sorry you feel that way. You were one of the first persons to welcome me to this forum Takeda. Come on back any time.

[NeonSamurai]

I wish you luck (again) Takeda, hope you come back soon (again).:Kaleun_Cheers:
I've missed you not being here.

[Onkel Neal]

I think the funniest part of the whole thing is that he's neatly laid out his guns and ammo, but has also decided to include his Guitar Hero controllers.

That poor guy, he's a real dude, walking around, somewhere, saddled with his fate of being the worst meme most people see :D

[Dowly]

I've missed you not being here.
Aye, me too.

I hope you come back in the not so distant future, Tak. :salute:

@August: No, Nippelspanner is not here under a different account so you can rest easy.

[Jimbuna]

There aren't more alias accounts are there?

None that we are aware of but any that do come to the surface will be handled in the same consistent and equitable way.

[August]

Aye, me too.

I hope you come back in the not so distant future, Tak. :salute:

@August: No, Nippelspanner is not here under a different account so you can rest easy.

Hey like I said I just want to know who i'm talking to. So the next time some newbie starts hoping that somebody will shoot and kill me I'll know where all the hate is coming from.

[Dowly]

Oh, cry me a river,

[August]

Oh, cry me a river, Baity McBaitface.

See? I know just where your hatred is coming from.

[AVGWarhawk]

I think this thread has run it's course. Trump is president elect. Time to start a President Trump thread. That should be a blast! :haha::o

[nikimcbee]

I think this thread has run it's course. Trump is president elect. Time to start a President Trump thread. That should be a blast! :haha::o

In before lock down.

Too bad about Pelosi though. That would have been the cherry on the sundae.

[AVGWarhawk]

In before lock down.

Too bad about Pelosi though. That would have been the cherry on the sundae.

For the life of me I can not understand how Pelosi continues to get the nod. She must have some damning pictures. :hmmm:

[nikimcbee]

For the life of me I can not understand how Pelosi continues to get the nod. She must have some damning pictures. :hmmm:

I wonder how it plays out for the 30% that voted against her? I guess the House dems just found their new custodial staff.

[Schroeder]

I see the kindergarten is still here. Oh well, time to dive some more.

[Oberon]

Kaisch investing $15m into smart corridor for self-driving trucks.
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/ohio-invest-15m-35-mile-driving-truck-test-43882824

The days of the American trucker look to be on the wane.

[Mr Quatro]

I think this thread has run it's course. Trump is president elect. Time to start a President Trump thread. That should be a blast! :haha::o

You so smart Warhawk :up:, by the way we never did get an acceptance speech from you after you won the next POTUS contest.

After December 19th (Electoral College voting day) we could start two thread's ... "Dump Trump" or "Keep Trump"

On GMA (ABC TV) this morning one of the news men said that Trump was fixing to trade in his ship the "Black Pearl" for the "QE-2".

Meaning of course that he could handle the Black Pearl, but not so sure about the QE-2.

[AVGWarhawk]

You so smart Warhawk :up:, by the way we never did get an acceptance speech from you after you won the next POTUS contest.

After December 19th (Electoral College voting day) we could start two thread's ... "Dump Trump" or "Keep Trump"

On GMA (ABC TV) this morning one of the news men said that Trump was fixing to trade in his ship the "Black Pearl" for the "QE-2".

Meaning of course that he could handle the Black Pearl, but not so sure about the QE-2.

I gladly accept picking the winning candidate for POTUS 2016. I was mailed a nice Subsim t-shirt and coffee mug from Neal. Kewl....:D

Not sure if it should be a Dump Trump thread title. Maybe, "What did Trump Tweet Today?" :har:

[Aktungbby]

^WAIT! WHAT! a coffee mug too!:wah: imagine that!:k_confused:

[August]

After December 19th (Electoral College voting day) we could start two thread's ... "Dump Trump" or "Keep Trump"

How about just one thread titled "US Politics Thread". If that's good enough for the Brits it should be good enough for us.

[Hottentot]

See? I know just where your hatred is coming from.

This is pretty ironic from someone who has just brought up in this very thread things that happened literally years ago and bitterly complained about imagined slights against him while demanding to know if there might be any other offenders like that around.

Tell you what, August. I don't frequent this place as much as I used to. I don't know what Takeda has done while he has been gone or where he has been, but I have mostly moved on to another community. One that is dedicated to a certain kind of volunteer activity in the internet. I've spent these years there and I have found the place and the people there very worthy. I have in that time therefore committed myself to making that particular community a better place by improving its resources and helping the newbies who come along to try their hand at what we do. And from the work itself I have several confirmed cases where I have literally saved someone's life. It's quite productive.

I don't say this in order to be proud of myself or in order to gloat. I say this because every time I visit Subsim, which I used to like and still find at least a decent place, I feel like I'm visiting a moment from the past that's frozen in time. I still find you, and several other people here (but fortunately not all) doing exactly what you were doing when I left and saying exactly what you were saying when I left. Nothing, and I emphasize, nothing has changed in the years I've been gone in that regard. Not a single topic, not a single word, not a single person.

I have spent years seeing change around me, and the change has been for the better. It has been for the better because the people making it are in the same team and working together. What we had when I left Subsim is very different and vastly improved even as I'm writing this. But here very little has changed. Here you guys still are bickering about things someone said or did years ago. Foreigners this, liberals that, left, right, conservatives, and ten years ago you said blahblahblah...

I have seen several very reasonable people trying to tell you why that is just ridiculous. I don't assume I can change your mind by telling you what I think. Someone so stuck in their foxhole is simply beyond being reasoned with. No, that is not at all my intention. But I am curious. You have been here for years. You seem to spend a lot of time in here. You must have some reason that brings you back here year after year and drives you to write all those posts. You are a contributor here.

My intention therefore is just to ask you whether or not you honestly think that all of this hatred you seem to wallow in has, in any way, made Subsim (which seems to be very dear for you, like my community is to me) a better place? Has it made you feel better or has it made anyone around you feel better? Recently, or even ever? Instead of arguing, have you ever considered building things here? Things that you and your fellow forum members could enjoy? Writing a guide to your favorite game, perhaps? It's a strongly gaming related forum, after all. Or maybe creating a mod? Telling good jokes to make everyone laugh? Something like that?

Or has it ever even been your intention? Do you, in fact, really care about the community and the people you spend so much time with?

You bring up the word "hate" often. How "foreigners" hate your country or how forum members hate you. There was a time when I would have argued that with you, but really, that time is long gone. I see you here, after all these years, and all I can feel is just pity. You could spend all this time to make Subsim a much better place. There are many people here who spend at least as much time here as you do, and they are making a huge difference in making this a good community by contributing with helpful and nice posts. You could be one of them, but year after year you choose hate. At first I could have thought you don't see it yourself, but you are way too smart to fall for that. You don't wallow in hate just by coincidence. You choose it yourself year after year, post after post.

I don't know why. I don't expect you to tell me. I just wonder. That must be a very sad and very lonely world you are living in if all you can see, all you can experience and all you can think of is so strongly related to hating.

[AVGWarhawk]

^WAIT! WHAT! a coffee mug too!:wah: imagine that!:k_confused:

Yes. It has a scantly clad woman on the inside circumference. She slowly undress' as the hot liquid inside the cup is consumed. Quite clever and an enjoyable coffee in the mornings.

[Aktungbby]

It has a scantly clad woman on the inside circumference. She slowly undress' as the not liquid inside the cup is consumed. Quite clever and an enjoyable coffee in the mornings. Enjoy your priapismic caffeinated experience:D call a doctor if your 'enjoyment' persists longer than four hours! :Kaleun_Los: :subsim:

[AVGWarhawk]

Enjoy your priapismic caffeinated experience:D call a doctor if your 'enjoyment' persists longer than four hours! :Kaleun_Los: :subsim:

or if I have vision or hearing loss? :hmmm:

[August]

I don't know what to say Hottentot. I've never told another forum member that I hope somebody shoots them. If that's my fault as you seem to be implying then i'm not inclined to value that opinion very much.

To answer your questions though, do I feel that being hated on subsim makes it a better place? Not really. But the hot heads are a small minority and the friends I have met here more than compensate for them or I wouldn't be around to keep sending donations to Neal every year.

Have I ever considered building things here? Like what? Do you mean like the Subsim get together that I hosted a few years back? I thought everyone had a pretty good time and we even had a couple of Europeans in the group who never thought it necessary to wish me or anyone else any ill so I doubt that they or the hundreds of my European relatives would agree with your assessment of me.

I think it's a wild exaggeration on your part to say that "post after post" of mine has any controversy to them all all let alone be "wallowing" in hatred. Feel free to scroll through them yourself (Or don't. I wouldn't want to imply i'm telling you to do anything like one of these "reasonable people" just tried to lay on me). Maybe 1 in 10 might be construed that way and even then they're usually only in response to something posted by one for them that is equally controversial.

And finally just to be clear it's not all foreigners that have a problem with me or me with them, just a very few here who love to dish out the criticism of my country but are completely thin skinned when someone gives them a taste of their own medicine and I have little sympathy for it or them.

Now I hope that you'll acknowledge that I answered you here without the personal insults or name calling that certain others love to engage in. I did not wish any evil to befall you at all. Perhaps you don't believe that but what can I say.

[nikimcbee]

Have I ever considered building things here? Like what? Do you mean like the Subsim get together that I hosted a few years back? I thought everyone had a pretty good time and we even had a couple of Europeans in the group who never thought it necessary to wish me or anyone else any ill so I doubt that they or the hundreds of my European relatives would agree with your assessment of me.


I'm going to go with this. Pound for pound, the best subsim meet up.:Kaleun_Salute: Plus August is a great guy, mainly cuz he got me hooked on Crown Royal.:Kaleun_Wink:

[nikimcbee]

Yes. It has a scantly clad woman on the inside circumference. She slowly undress' as the hot liquid inside the cup is consumed. Quite clever and an enjoyable coffee in the mornings.


Pictures or it didn't happen.:Kaleun_Wink:

[August]

Yes. It has a scantly clad woman on the inside circumference. She slowly undress' as the hot liquid inside the cup is consumed. Quite clever and an enjoyable coffee in the mornings.

I'm jealous, all I got was a refrigerator magnet! :)

I'll just have to make due with the babe on the PT boat coffee cup that Niki sent me. :03:

[AVGWarhawk]

Pictures or it didn't happen.:Kaleun_Wink:

:haha:

[AVGWarhawk]

I'm jealous, all I got was a refrigerator magnet! :)

I'll just have to make due with the babe on the PT boat coffee cup that Niki sent me. :03:

Pictures or it did not happen.

[nikimcbee]

Pictures or it did not happen.

I was gunna post a link, but it looks like we sold all of our coffee mugs.

http://www.savetheptboatinc.com/Ships_Store.htm:k_confused:

[eddie]

Trump will be bragging how he kept Carrier from moving their business to Mexico. What a load of crap!


"In exchange for allowing United Technologies to continue to offshore more than 1,000 jobs (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/11/29/donald-trump-has-reached-a-deal-with-a-manufacturer-to-keep-jobs-from-going-to-mexico/?utm_term=.156d0fbc6ab0), Trump will reportedly give the company tax and regulatory favors that the corporation has sought (http://www.politico.com/tipsheets/morning-shift/2016/11/carrier-tariff-now-carrier-tax-cut-217585). Just a short few months ago, Trump was pledging to force United Technologies to “pay a damn tax (http://www.nbc26.com/news/national/reports-trump-administration-carrier-reach-deal-to-keep-nearly-1000-jobs-in-indiana_).” He was insisting on very steep tariffs for companies like Carrier that left the United States and wanted to sell their foreign-made products back in the United States. Instead of a damn tax, the company will be rewarded with a damn tax cut. Wow! How’s that for standing up to corporate greed? How’s that for punishing corporations that shut down in the United States and move abroad?
In essence, United Technologies took Trump hostage and won. And that should send a shock wave of fear through all workers across the country.
Trump has endangered the jobs of workers who were previously safe in the United States. Why? Because he has signaled to every corporation in America that they can threaten to offshore jobs in exchange for business-friendly tax benefits and incentives. Even corporations that weren’t thinking of offshoring jobs will most probably be re-evaluating their stance this morning. And who would pay for the high cost for tax cuts that go to the richest businessmen in America? The working class of America."


"Let’s be clear. United Technologies is not going broke. Last year, it made a profit of $7.6 billion (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/why-people-really-support-trump-and-sanders_us_56be3c46e4b0b40245c6a159) and received more than $6 billion in defense contracts (http://money.cnn.com/2016/11/28/news/companies/donald-trump-carrier-jobs/). It has also received more than $50 million from the Export-Import Bank and very generous tax breaks. In 2014, United Technologies gave its former chief executive Louis Chenevert a golden parachute worth more than $172 million (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-11-25/united-technologies-chenevert-leaves-with-172-million-package). Last year, the company’s five highest-paid executives made more than $50 million (http://insiders.morningstar.com/trading/executive-compensation.action?t=UTX). The firm also spent $12 billion to inflate its stock price (http://www.wsj.com/articles/united-technologies-unveils-12-billion-buyback-1445343580) instead of using that money to invest in new plants and workers."


Nice precedent he is setting!


http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/bernie-sanders-carrier-just-showed-corporations-how-to-beat-donald-trump/ar-AAl1xss

[August]

Pictures or it did not happen.

:D

http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq193/rdsterling/20161201_181012_zpsgnvyfkfr.jpg

[nikimcbee]

:D

http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq193/rdsterling/20161201_181012_zpsgnvyfkfr.jpg
:Kaleun_Thumbs_Up::Kaleun_Cheers:

[Onkel Neal]

I'm jealous, all I got was a refrigerator magnet! :)

I'll just have to make due with the babe on the PT boat coffee cup that Niki sent me. :03:

Yeah, but have you poured any hot liquid on that magnet? eh? eh? :D

[AVGWarhawk]

:D

http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq193/rdsterling/20161201_181012_zpsgnvyfkfr.jpg

:Kaleun_Thumbs_Up:

[AVGWarhawk]

Trump will be bragging how he kept Carrier from moving their business to Mexico. What a load of crap!


"In exchange for allowing United Technologies to continue to offshore more than 1,000 jobs (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/11/29/donald-trump-has-reached-a-deal-with-a-manufacturer-to-keep-jobs-from-going-to-mexico/?utm_term=.156d0fbc6ab0), Trump will reportedly give the company tax and regulatory favors that the corporation has sought (http://www.politico.com/tipsheets/morning-shift/2016/11/carrier-tariff-now-carrier-tax-cut-217585). Just a short few months ago, Trump was pledging to force United Technologies to “pay a damn tax (http://www.nbc26.com/news/national/reports-trump-administration-carrier-reach-deal-to-keep-nearly-1000-jobs-in-indiana_).” He was insisting on very steep tariffs for companies like Carrier that left the United States and wanted to sell their foreign-made products back in the United States. Instead of a damn tax, the company will be rewarded with a damn tax cut. Wow! How’s that for standing up to corporate greed? How’s that for punishing corporations that shut down in the United States and move abroad?
In essence, United Technologies took Trump hostage and won. And that should send a shock wave of fear through all workers across the country.
Trump has endangered the jobs of workers who were previously safe in the United States. Why? Because he has signaled to every corporation in America that they can threaten to offshore jobs in exchange for business-friendly tax benefits and incentives. Even corporations that weren’t thinking of offshoring jobs will most probably be re-evaluating their stance this morning. And who would pay for the high cost for tax cuts that go to the richest businessmen in America? The working class of America."


"Let’s be clear. United Technologies is not going broke. Last year, it made a profit of $7.6 billion (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/why-people-really-support-trump-and-sanders_us_56be3c46e4b0b40245c6a159) and received more than $6 billion in defense contracts (http://money.cnn.com/2016/11/28/news/companies/donald-trump-carrier-jobs/). It has also received more than $50 million from the Export-Import Bank and very generous tax breaks. In 2014, United Technologies gave its former chief executive Louis Chenevert a golden parachute worth more than $172 million (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-11-25/united-technologies-chenevert-leaves-with-172-million-package). Last year, the company’s five highest-paid executives made more than $50 million (http://insiders.morningstar.com/trading/executive-compensation.action?t=UTX). The firm also spent $12 billion to inflate its stock price (http://www.wsj.com/articles/united-technologies-unveils-12-billion-buyback-1445343580) instead of using that money to invest in new plants and workers."


Nice precedent he is setting!


http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/bernie-sanders-carrier-just-showed-corporations-how-to-beat-donald-trump/ar-AAl1xss


1000 people retained their jobs. 1000 people can keep their homes, feed kids and enjoy a livelihood. I hope it is just a start and other companies will do the same. It is not all dollar and cents. These are people who want to enjoy a livelihood like anyone else. Watch a few documentaries on GM plants closing. It is depressing to say the least. If any jobs can be saved and retained in this country as a result of a tax relief then so be it. These people are working, off any welfare rolls, producing goods and services, paying taxes and building strong communities. Shutting down plants does the complete opposite. Detroit is great example of this. Look at the east side of Baltimore. The GM plant shut down and other business dried up with it. It is a ghost town of abandoned factories. The current plan of over regulation and taxing of business is not working. They are moving out. Time for a new strategy.

[Onkel Neal]

I'm all for jobs in the US and tax relief. Screw high taxes, the govt just squanders the money we work for.

[Jimbuna]

How about just one thread titled "US Politics Thread". If that's good enough for the Brits it should be good enough for us.

Sounds good to me and after having discusseded with Neal a 'US Politics' thread (similar to that of the UK which is already in existence) will be opened after the presidential vote counting has taken place.

I'm certainly no expert on politics in the US but my current understanding is that the vote ends on 19th December (give or take a day or so) which means this thread will close and the new one will be opened for whatever political discussion people are wanting to engage in.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2449921#post2449921

[August]

Yeah, but have you poured any hot liquid on that magnet? eh? eh? :D

I had to read this in the morning. Now I have to wait all day to go home and try it out! :)

[Schroeder]

Screw high taxes, the govt just squanders the money we work for.
But who is going to pay for your education system, military (!!!), law enforcement, firefighters, roads etc... All that costs money. Your country already had to raise that debt ceiling couple of times if memory serves right so how do you want to pay for all that with lowered taxes or giving big corporations total tax cuts? Taxes must be reasonable yes, but they also must cover the costs.

[AVGWarhawk]

But who is going to pay for your education system, military (!!!), law enforcement, firefighters, roads etc... All that costs money. Your country already had to raise that debt ceiling couple of times if memory serves right so how do you want to pay for all that with lowered taxes or giving big corporations total tax cuts? Taxes must be reasonable yes, but they also must cover the costs.

Local police and fire are paid by county, city and state they are serving. Education in part is also paid by county, city and state these schools are located. There is Federal aid of course but not the sole provider.

Now, we keep 1000 jobs for folks who are paying taxes to the Fed/State plus other goods and services because the people are working. This tax pays police/fire and schools. Take away these 1000 jobs and those taxes once collected are now gone. Further, these folks are now collecting unemployment. It would seem to me that keeping people working is much better than putting them on the unemployment rolls, losing homes and on the streets.

Covering costs? Yes, reign in government overspending and not good stewardship of the tax payers money. It is a good place to start.

[AVGWarhawk]

BTW, there was a good question posed concerning the Carrier deal and keeping the plant open. Trump being only the President Elect, did he have the power/right to make the deal? The answer is Gov Pence made the deal for his state where this Carrier plant is located.

Jim earmarked a thread titled US Politic Thread. :up: I think we are going see a very interesting 4 years. :hmmm:

[Schroeder]

Local police and fire are paid by county, city and state they are serving. Education in part is also paid by county, city and state these schools are located. There is Federal aid of course but not the sole provider.

Now, we keep 1000 jobs for folks who are paying taxes to the Fed/State plus other goods and services because the people are working. This tax pays police/fire and schools.

I was talking about taxes in general regardless of wether it's fed taxes, state taxes or county taxes.


Take away these 1000 jobs and those taxes once collected are now gone.
Further, these folks are now collecting unemployment. It would seem to me that keeping people working is much better than putting them on the unemployment rolls, losing homes and on the streets. In other words all taxes should exclusively being paid by the working class. Corporations now have a nice precedent to not pay taxes at all. "Give me a tax break or I'll move elsewhere..."
Where do you draw the line there? No taxes and wages on one level with China because if you don't take Chinese wages we'll move elsewhere...?
That can't be the answer either.


Covering costs? Yes, reign in government overspending and not good stewardship of the tax payers money. It is a good place to start.A good point on which I totally agree. But we know it won't happen. People have been complaining about that for centuries, perhaps millennia and nothing ever made it happen regardless of who was in power....:/\\!!
I'm all for reasonable taxes. Nobody should be taxed into poverty or having his achievements negated by taxes but those who can lift more weight than others should also contribute a bit more than those who can't. To not contribute at all while swimming in cash isn't fair towards the average john Doe who has to pay taxes to keep the show going.

[AVGWarhawk]

I was talking about taxes in general regardless of wether it's fed taxes, state taxes or county taxes.

In other words all taxes should exclusively being paid by the working class. Corporations now have a nice precedent to not pay taxes at all. "Give me a tax break or I'll move elsewhere..."
Where do you draw the line there? No taxes and wages on one level with China because if you don't take Chinese wages we'll move elsewhere...?
That can't be the answer either.

A good point on which I totally agree. But we know it won't happen. People have been complaining about that for centuries, perhaps millennia and nothing ever made it happen regardless of who was in power....:/\\!!
I'm all for reasonable taxes. Nobody should be taxed into poverty or having his achievements negated by taxes but those who can lift more weight than others should also contribute a bit more than those who can't. To not contribute at all while swimming in cash isn't fair towards the average john Doe who has to pay taxes to keep the show going.


Taxes in general come from a lot places. Income, capital gains, inheritance, sales, property, etc. So what tax in general are you thinking of?

I did not state only working folks pay taxes. Everyone pays taxes. Some more then others. Some simply lie on their returns and pay nothing. Understand the tax is only part of the issue concerning corporations in America. Over-regulation currently imposed is also driving them out. It is more than just a tax break. Further, how can a local company compete monetarily with a foreign company that does not have these regulations? They can't. So they move to Mexico where regulations are about none. It is not really give me a tax break and I'll stay. It is more so, "This is what is causing failure of this company is this... How can you help with this issue?" Concerning China, the are getting away with murder on the open market. For example, it is cheaper for the US to ship unfinished wood to China who then makes it into shims for construction. These shims are shipped back to the US for sale at Home Depot. What is wrong with this picture?

At the end of the day, I think entire tax code needs an overhaul. What worked decades ago is not working now. Everyone should pay some sort of tax. Everyone should pay at least something into the Affordable Healthcare act. The free rides need to come to an end.

[Mr Quatro]

I feel that there is too much hoopla coming out of this pre taking office for POTUS elect Donald Trump. I hope it is all good for the USA ... I say again I hope this wheeler dealer can do what he says he can do, but about the tax loop holes: http://theweek.com/articles/486055/why-doesnt-general-electric-pay-taxes


The largest corporation in America paid precisely zero dollars in taxes to the government last year. Despite making $14.2 billion in profits, General Electric managed to exploit legal loopholes and tax breaks to avoid paying any corporate tax in the U.S., reports David Kocieniewski at The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/business/economy/25tax.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss). In fact, GE was able to claim a tax benefit of $3.2 billion in 2010
http://www.factcheck.org/2012/04/warren-ge-pays-no-taxes/



This much is certain: As the New York Times and others have well documented, GE has employed a number of aggressive (and legal) strategies that have greatly reduced the company’s corporate tax burden.
But the claim that it pays no federal income tax at all is disputed by GE. Moreover, aside from corporate income taxes, GE pays payroll taxes, state taxes and local taxes. So Warren’s blanket assertion that GE pays “nothing – zero – in taxes” is simply inaccurate
If I remember correctly Trump has said the same thing that they pay payroll taxes, state taxes and local taxes, but no current tax records have been forth coming.

Doesn't GE sell items like jet engines to the US government?

Plus a rumor I just heard and haven't followed up on that the forgivness of student loans is on the horizon.

[Schroeder]

Taxes in general come from a lot places. Income, capital gains, inheritance, sales, property, etc. So what tax in general are you thinking of?
I'm all for jobs in the US and tax relief. Screw high taxes, the govt just squanders the money we work for.But who is going to pay for your education system, military (!!!), law enforcement, firefighters, roads etc... All that costs money. Your country already had to raise that debt ceiling couple of times if memory serves right so how do you want to pay for all that with lowered taxes or giving big corporations total tax cuts? Taxes must be reasonable yes, but they also must cover the costs.
I replied to taxes in general.

I did not state only working folks pay taxes.
But that is exactly what it comes down to in the end.

. Understand the tax is only part of the issue concerning corporations in America. Over-regulation currently imposed is also driving them out. It is more than just a tax break. Further, how can a local company compete monetarily with a foreign company that does not have these regulations? They can't.
Which is why they made 606 million dollars last year....and their parent company a net gain of 5.4 billion.
http://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=620281

http://2014ar.utc.com/assets/pdfs/UTCAR2014_FullReport.pdf
(page 9 in your reader and page 7 of the flier)
Yeah, right, totally can't compete and close to chapter 11.:doh:


So they move to Mexico where regulations are about none. It is not really give me a tax break and I'll stay. It is more so, "This is what is causing failure of this company is this... How can you help with this issue?"
The company isn't failing, it seems to be just the normal greed for maximized profits. It's the old boogeyman of "you're taxing us into the ground bohooho" while making healthy profits. Of course there has to be a balance and taxes that destroy companies surely don't help anyone but as long as they make about 2million USD profit every working day I don't see how they can be overtaxed or uncompetitive.


At the end of the day, I think entire tax code needs an overhaul. What worked decades ago is not working now. Everyone should pay some sort of tax. Everyone should pay at least something into the Affordable Healthcare act. The free rides need to come to an end.That I can agree with.

[AVGWarhawk]

I think America needs the hoopla at the moment. The tax codes need an overhaul. Many gasped that Trump did not pay taxes. Well, he didn't. He used the tax code to his advantage just like anyone else. This looked to be some good ammo for the Dems but at the end of the day, it was pop gun. Everyone used the tax code to their advantage. Unless you are Joe Biden who states it is your patriotic duty to pay a more taxes.

I too have heard of college loan forgiveness. However, how is forgiving me for paying my daughters tuitions? :hmmm:

[Onkel Neal]

.... but those who can lift more weight than others should also contribute a bit more than those who can't.

Everyone should contribute, ìts not right I have to pay at 28% and someone playing video games all day or selling weed pays 0%

Cut taxes, cut spending. Let people keep more of what they earn.

[Oberon]

At the end of the day, I think entire tax code needs an overhaul. What worked decades ago is not working now. Everyone should pay some sort of tax. Everyone should pay at least something into the Affordable Healthcare act. The free rides need to come to an end.

Fully agree, but I don't think that someone who has made a lot of his money by knowing how to dodge those taxes is going to do much to reform the system which has benefited him so much.

But, I could be pleasantly surprised. :hmmm: If anyone knows how to close loopholes it's someone who has used them, but it's the potential for clashing of interests in a lot of areas, even if he has vowed to step down from his company.

[Von Due]

Everyone should contribute, ìts not right I have to pay at 28% and someone playing video games all day or selling weed pays 0%

Cut taxes, cut spending. Let people keep more of what they earn.

A main point is who do we weight up against who. You up against drug dealers or you up against tycoons and billionaires (apart from the drug dealers not declaring any income for obvious reasons)?

We have a shipping billionaire here. He made it perfectly clear: If he had to pay tax on his income, he would move his business out of the country. Paying tax took a toll on his health poor fellow so he ended up taking his business with him when he flagged out (not a huge fan of name dropping but a fantastic story requires some evidence: His name is, if it's of any interest, John Fredriksen).

Up against drug dealers is one thing, up against people like that J.F. is something else entirely and something worth pondering. He is far from the only one.

[AVGWarhawk]

Fully agree, but I don't think that someone who has made a lot of his money by knowing how to dodge those taxes is going to do much to reform the system which has benefited him so much.

But, I could be pleasantly surprised. :hmmm: If anyone knows how to close loopholes it's someone who has used them, but it's the potential for clashing of interests in a lot of areas, even if he has vowed to step down from his company.

Using the tax code to ones advantage is what many do because it is available. Hiding income happens as well. I think Trump will need to do something. At the very least a tax cut or writing some checks to everyone like Bush did.

A flat tax could be in the works. As it stands now the tax code no longer fits the countries needs IMO.

[Schroeder]

Everyone should contribute, ìts not right I have to pay at 28% and someone playing video games all day or selling weed pays 0%
Exactly, all need to contribute, not just the working Joe but that's what the corporations want. No tax for them or else....


Cut taxes, cut spending. Let people keep more of what they earn.Cut spending on what? Education, military, infra structure, law enforcement, social security, research...? The problem is while a lot of tax money is wasted (not just in the US it's a global problem) the majority of it goes into the aforementioned sectors were it is needed (and when it comes to social security I'm talking about people in need, not those too lazy to work, cut their benefits until they are willing to work). There is the problem right there. The question is how much and where can spending be cut or optimized without letting the whole system collapse? Just reducing spending and cutting taxes in general can ruin parts of your system. Over here every government since the end of the cold war has cut back on military spending and now we're in a state where barely anything is still functioning and plenty of our equipment that looks good on paper isn't ready because we don't buy spare parts for it or it's 50 years old or both... Right now the German military is pretty much not combat ready whatsoever. Our infrastructure has been neglected as well and we'll have to pay a lot for that in the not so distant future (bridges falling apart for example=.
It's all not that simple.:-?

(darn, now I know why Blitzkrieg said I was a left oddball:o)

[Oberon]

Trump has just talked directly to the leader of Taiwan, the first time a President-Elect has done so since 1979. This coming at a time when the mainland is especially annoyed at Taiwan because a pro-independence party candidate was elected in May. So, major tensions between Taiwan and China, and Trump throws some petrol on the fire, probably because he's been looking to build a hotel in Taipei since September.

The PRCs response should be.....interesting.....still, I imagine the US arms industry just exploded in delight, the potential for the ramping up on cross-strait tensions will mean Taiwan will be in the market for every anti-ship and anti-aircraft missile it can lay its hands on.

[Onkel Neal]

Exactly, all need to contribute, not just the working Joe but that's what the corporations want. No tax for them or else....

Cut spending on what? Education, military, infra structure, law enforcement, social security, research...? The problem is while a lot of tax money is wasted (not just in the US it's a global problem) the majority of it goes into the aforementioned sectors were it is needed (and when it comes to social security I'm talking about people in need, not those too lazy to work, cut their benefits until they are willing to work). There is the problem right there. The question is how much and where can spending be cut or optimized without letting the whole system collapse? Just reducing spending and cutting taxes in general can ruin parts of your system. Over here every government since the end of the cold war has cut back on military spending and now we're in a state where barely anything is still functioning and plenty of our equipment that looks good on paper isn't ready because we don't buy spare parts for it or it's 50 years old or both... Right now the German military is pretty much not combat ready whatsoever. Our infrastructure has been neglected as well and we'll have to pay a lot for that in the not so distant future (bridges falling apart for example=.
It's all not that simple.:-?

(darn, now I know why Blitzkrieg said I was a left oddball:o)

Cut spending on everything, across the board, but especially social programs. The system will be fine, it is more danger of collapsing due to excessive govt debt and spending than anything else.

[Buddahaid]

That will force issues and I'm curious how it would be absorbed? Something would have to deal with the energy deflected in such a policy.

[Schroeder]

Cut spending on everything, across the board, but especially social programs. The system will be fine, it is more danger of collapsing due to excessive govt debt and spending than anything else.
OK let's do it!:)



Steve, get out of your flat. No more free housing for you!
Academics from all over the world go to the US as their education standard for their native population will drop even further (and it isn't glorious to begin with from what I hear at least)
Afghanistan, Iraq, Europe, get your acts together the US forces will pull out (on this point I actually could agree, but it will cost hundred of thousands of jobs in the military and the suppliers but might be cheaper in the long run)
Hope you don't mind the potholes in the roads and generally decaying infra structure which will make investors go elsewhere.
...

You see, it isn't simple. You can't get a simple solution for a complex question. All has to be in balance. Taxes and spending. There is spending that can't be cut like infra structure up keeping and education. Education is what makes a country great. Look at Germany, we've got pretty much no natural resources and yet we are the leading economy in Europe. That is only achievable because we have smart people developing good products that the world market wants (or gets tricked into buying...thanks VW..:-?.).

But we're running in circles so I'll leave it at this.

[Platapus]

Cutting government programs is probably a good strategic idea, but they would have to be cut slowly so give the people and the markets time to adjust.

The individual states will also need time to ramp up their social programs to be able to take up the slack.

The problem is that a lot of people want a quick fix. A member of the House wants demonstrable results in one year as they are on a 2 year election term.

What representative will approve a plan that will result in a temporary disadvantage during their term but may show benefit in the future... when they may not be in office? We don't have politicians like that.

It took us decades to get in to this mess, it will probably take decades to get out. What we need is a multi-generational commitment to fix our problems. What's the chance of that happening in our political environment?

The depressing reality may be that politically we can't fix this problem but will have to wait until the US crashes and then rebuild.

[Oberon]

The burden of the spending could probably be off-loaded onto individual state governments in order to increase their autonomy...however, those states would then likely either go straight into the red or have to cut everything which would lead to more than a few problems.
You could, in theory, privatise a lot of infrastructure, roads and so forth, which would probably result in the creation of a lot of toll booths in order for private companies to recap the losses, and it wouldn't necessarily result in better roads...although judging by the state of some of the roads you see on US television I guess the only way is up.
A cut in welfare programs would have a knock-on effect in other areas, greater homelessness, a potential spike in crime rates and civil disorder as disaffected people who are unable to gain employment due to the gradual rise in automation in the workplace find themselves removed from society...and of course this disturbances would continue longer than normal because there wouldn't be as many police around to enforce the law because of a cut in their budgets...unless of course you privatise the police, but who would pay the private police force? If the state government couldn't then perhaps gated communities would spring up where the individual citizens paid for police protection.
Privatised education would be possible, but each university would need to make sure that it balanced the cost of education with the specialist learning that it could deliver. Some places could run on with their name alone, MIT, Caltech, and so on, but others would find themselves with a decline in student numbers as more and more people are unable to afford to get into university. You could off-set this cut in education programs with a rise in apprenticeship programs from individual companies, but there would probably be not enough programs to cater for demand. Again, privatising the education system could have these gated communities paying for a school for their children to attend, although the quality of the education that these children would receive would vary wildly from community to community, I imagine more than a few communities for example would be loathe to teach about the theory of evolution.
Likewise there's the possibility of home schooling, but again you have that problem of the quality of education varying wildly.
In short, the onus of paying for services would fall heavily upon the individual citizen, and those who could not pay would not receive these services. It would dramatically widen the already growing gulf between those who have and those who do not. I could see gated communities spreading like wildfire, large scale unrest leading to some very violent situations, ala the 1992 Rodney King riots but a lot, lot worse.
The global standing of the US would plummet as people took one look at what was happening to it and stayed well away, unless of course they were rich enough to go and spend some time in a gated community away from the troubles and attend the better half of opportunities in the US, and there would be some good opportunities there since we know that there are some smart and talented people in the US. In short, the US would become a bit like Bahrain, fantastic in the good parts and dismal in the bad parts with a tremendous differance between the two, or perhaps a bit like Brazil, with epic skyscrapers being found within a few miles of shanty towns.
Eventually this divide would lead to an attempt, be it successful or not, to overthrow the government by a disaffected civilian populace, how successful this uprising would be would depend on how well protected the government would be...which if there was a reduced government spending that would mean a reduced military, and those who are in the military would probably have lower morale because of a constant comparison with how things were before the cuts (like how people always compare the Royal Navy of WWII with that of today) and they could well join with the uprising and thus help it succeed. Private military contractors could help balance that force, but they would stay around only so long as they were paid. Rather feudal really with the king and his private military force trying to keep control over the masses. :haha:
As for the global consequences, well, with the potential rise in US isolationism at the moment then we're already seeing the onset of it, the Middle East would smash itself into pieces trying to reset national boundaries, Iran and Saudi Arabia would definitely go nuclear, and whether they'd be content to engage in proxy wars like the US and USSR in the Cold War or whether they'd go full Abu Hajaar is another matter, I doubt Israel would sit idly by while they went nuclear, so they might well wind up having to destroy Israel first, and Israel would go full Samson on their way down. Now, the US could up oil production rates (depending on whether individual oil companies would want to invest in US oil) but I don't think it could offset the inevitable rise in oil prices which the self-destruction of the Middle East would create, and this would benefit Russia greatly, enabling them to complete their arms modernisation scheme at the same time that the US would find themselves potentially falling behind in military technology. Europe wouldn't stand a chance and would eventually flip over to a pro-Moscow stance, although Eastern Europe wouldn't go quietly, so you've got the possibility of a war there, and it would depend a lot on how much the likes of Paris, Berlin, and London would be willing to stand up for the Baltics and Poland as to whether it would evolve into a great European war.
On the other side of the map in the Pacific, China would find itself in a Western Pacific unchallenged by the US military, so various nations would flip to Beijing, with the exception of Japan and South Korea. A form of SEATO would probably come about with Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea, maybe Pakistan and Thailand banding together to create a counter-balancing force to the might of the PRC. The Phillipines would probably flip towards whoever was looking like they might win in a military conflict, or perhaps just stay out entirely, like Yugoslavia.

That's just supposition, of course, things could pan out in completely different directions, no-one can be absolutely certain of events. However, eventually the US would find itself surrounded by other powerful nations, and at some point the interests of the US and the interests of these other powerful nations would clash, perhaps in South America, and it would be 1941 or 1917 all over again.

[MaDef]

OK let's do it!:)



Steve, get out of your flat. No more free housing for you!
Academics from all over the world go to the US as their education standard for their native population will drop even further (and it isn't glorious to begin with from what I hear at least)
Afghanistan, Iraq, Europe, get your acts together the US forces will pull out (on this point I actually could agree, but it will cost hundred of thousands of jobs in the military and the suppliers but might be cheaper in the long run)
Hope you don't mind the potholes in the roads and generally decaying infra structure which will make investors go elsewhere.
...

You see, it isn't simple. You can't get a simple solution for a complex question. All has to be in balance. Taxes and spending. There is spending that can't be cut like infra structure up keeping and education. Education is what makes a country great. Look at Germany, we've got pretty much no natural resources and yet we are the leading economy in Europe. That is only achievable because we have smart people developing good products that the world market wants (or gets tricked into buying...thanks VW..:-?.).

But we're running in circles so I'll leave it at this.Nor is it as complicated as people keep asserting.

example:
1. lower taxes while at the same time removing or severely curtailing exemptions.

[Platapus]

Good point, it would help to make the tax situation easier to understand.

Why have a high tax rate only to have associated deductions and exemptions? All that does is turn the tax season into an arms race of who can afford the bestest tax lawyer.

People like to complain that the US has the highest corporate tax in the universe as 35%. Yeah, that's the max tax rate, and it is high. But how many corporations actually pay 35%? If you are a business and you are paying 35%, the first thing you need to do is fire your tax lawyer.

It would be interesting to find out if there are any corporations in the US paying the full tax rate.

People who can't afford to hire a high price tax lawyer should not end up paying more taxes.

I don't think there is one answer to this. There may not be an economically, politically, and socially acceptable answer.

[eddie]

Defense spending could be cut, there is enough waste in their programs, that's for sure. All you have to do is look at the F-35 program, what a mess that is,lol

[August]

The key will be to keep the bureaucracy from making the tax cuts so painful that they become apparently unsustainable. When faced with a funding shortfall they will merrily lay off teachers, police and firemen but never themselves or their army of assistants or cut back their pet boondoggles.

I've long believed that our tax burden proportions are upside down. We give the most tax money to the government that is furthest away and least engaged with our needs. Sure a lot of that comes back in the forum of federal aid but it always comes back with expensive strings attached and adds a whole new level of bureaucracy to administer it at both ends of the chain.

[Sailor Steve]

OK let's do it!:)



Steve, get out of your flat. No more free housing for you!

You're absolutely right. I talk to people about it, and they say I deserve it because of my service. I don't see it that way, but they offer it so I take it.

On the other hand I take the VA money because it's more than Social Security, which is money taken from people's paychecks as a guarantee against their retirement. We actually have congressmen calling that an "entitlement". We don't get a choice. The government takes that money, and now they change the rules on how you can get your money back.

I see a whole list of good points following that post, and everybody seems to have some good ideas, but I certainly don't have any answers. The only thing I can add is that what this country needs the most is for people to stop blaming each other and trying to find some real solutions.

Some money could be saved by cutting government salaries. "Senator" and "Congressman" were meant to be a public service, not a high-paying career option. If elected officials had to live on minimum wage they might be more motivated to actually work on the problems.

[Onkel Neal]

OK let's do it!:)



Steve, get out of your flat. No more free housing for you!
Academics from all over the world go to the US as their education standard for their native population will drop even further (and it isn't glorious to begin with from what I hear at least)
Afghanistan, Iraq, Europe, get your acts together the US forces will pull out (on this point I actually could agree, but it will cost hundred of thousands of jobs in the military and the suppliers but might be cheaper in the long run)
Hope you don't mind the potholes in the roads and generally decaying infra structure which will make investors go elsewhere.
...

You see, it isn't simple. You can't get a simple solution for a complex question. All has to be in balance. Taxes and spending. There is spending that can't be cut like infra structure up keeping and education. Education is what makes a country great. Look at Germany, we've got pretty much no natural resources and yet we are the leading economy in Europe. That is only achievable because we have smart people developing good products that the world market wants (or gets tricked into buying...thanks VW..:-?.).

But we're running in circles so I'll leave it at this.

First, using a member as an example, not cool. Second, with the money I give to the govt I could buy Steve a house.

As for the other points, thank you. Yes, we need to stop being the world's police. I would love to see the military budget cut by 3/4. Academics from all over the world, go to Germany for your education, but try to hurry before it becomes an Islamic state.

As for potholes, you win. I support my taxes going to keep the roads in good shape.


The burden o

The global standing of the US would plummet as people took one look at what was happening to it and stayed well away, .....
.

Who.cares.



That will force issues and I'm curious how it would be absorbed? Something would have to deal with the energy deflected in such a policy.

I see, that's a way of saying welfare recipients would riot if we stop handing our money over to them? Interesting.


Cutting government programs is probably a good strategic idea, but they would have to be cut slowly so give the people and the markets time to adjust.

The individual states will also need time to ramp up their social programs to be able to take up the slack.

The problem is that a lot of people want a quick fix. A member of the House wants demonstrable results in one year as they are on a 2 year election term.

What representative will approve a plan that will result in a temporary disadvantage during their term but may show benefit in the future... when they may not be in office? We don't have politicians like that.

It took us decades to get in to this mess, it will probably take decades to get out. What we need is a multi-generational commitment to fix our problems. What's the chance of that happening in our political environment?

The depressing reality may be that politically we can't fix this problem but will have to wait until the US crashes and then rebuild.


Well, you are probably right. It would be important to focus on creating jobs and moving people into them and off welfare, slowly.

[Oberon]

http://memeimages.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/neil-degrasse-tyson-watch-out-badass-meme-220x150.jpeg

[Oberon]

Who.cares.




Well, who would care indeed? Not many people, the rest of the world would adapt in some way or another, we got along fine enough before the US, and I'm sure that it wouldn't end the world if the US went away either. :hmmm:
We'd adapt.

[Schroeder]

First, using a member as an example, not cool.
I used Steve as an example because most of us are somewhat familiar with his story. I'm glad he got a flat and would find it unfair to cancel that project. It was meant to show that a broad cut in social spending can easily hit the wrong people. It was not meant disrespectfully but was supposed to shock to get the point across.

@Steve
I apologize if my previous post has offended you. That was not the intention.


Who.cares.
Foreign investors who are important for your economy.



Well, you are probably right. It would be important to focus on creating jobs and moving people into them and off welfare, slowly.
With that I agree.

[Sailor Steve]

@Steve
I apologize if my previous post has offended you. That was not the intention.
I already answered that. I'm not offended at all, though Neal's point was probably also right. I thought you made a good example, as have several people since.

An interesting example to me is John Stossel, semi-famous here in America for investigative journalism. He points out in his first book that when he was going after bad practices by corporations he was the darling of The Left, but as soon as he did the same with government The Left started calling him "traitor". He tells the story of how his beach house was wrecked by a hurricane. He was approached by a government agency who said they existed to help with problems like his. As a Libertarian he was against that type of government spending, but he also felt he would be stupid not to take the money that was offered. So he let the taxpayers fix his house and jokingly called himself a "Welfare Queen". On the other hand when it happened again he said enough was enough and sold the house.

As usual I don't have any answers, but I like some of the suggestions I've seen so far. The problem remains. The Left wants free health care, and wants to raise taxes to pay for it. The Right calls it socialism, or even communism, but doesn't seem to care if people suffer. As I have pointed out, both hold tight to their precious views and blame the other side, but neither seems willing to try to reach any kind of a workable solution. Compromise really is the soul of Democracy, but everybody wants the other guy to compromise, and nobody wants to give an inch.

[Platapus]

There is an old saying that "there are no atheists in foxholes".

I think we can paraphrase that into a different context. There are no small government conservatives in disaster areas.

Ron Paul likes to talk about how the federal government needs to stay out of state matters, but when a disaster hit his district, he sure had his hand out for federal aid.

When something bad happens to you politics be damned, you want help.

[Sailor Steve]

On the other hand, the Federal Government takes money from the States then sometimes puts special requirements onto giving it back as aid. When the oil crisis came in 1973 the Fed told the States they wouldn't get money for the highway system unless the kowtowed to the 55 mph speed limit. The government bullies the States with this sort of thing.

There was a time when the States actually helped each other out with disasters. Of course there was also a time when States threatened war with each other over their borders...

[Reece]

Well, who would care indeed? Not many people, the rest of the world would adapt in some way or another, we got along fine enough before the US, and I'm sure that it wouldn't end the world if the US went away either. :hmmm:
We'd adapt.
Probably to the Russian way of life, or maybe Chinese!:yep:

[Oberon]

Probably to the Russian way of life, or maybe Chinese!:yep:

Russian most likely, perhaps even Islamic. Who knows? Either way we'd adapt and get on with life, it's what humans do.

[Platapus]

There was a time when the States actually helped each other out with disasters. Of course there was also a time when States threatened war with each other over their borders...


I am sure that the adoption of the "incorporation Doctrine" concerning the constitution that occurred after the civil war was not simply a coincidence. :03:

[AVGWarhawk]

There was a time when the States actually helped each other out with disasters. Of course there was also a time when States threatened war with each other over their borders...

The states do still help in disasters. Our electrical company sends trucks to other states that need poles and lines repaired after storms. The state pays for the trucks/electricians to contract on.

[August]

Of course there was also a time when States threatened war with each other over their borders...

Rhode Island was threatened with invasion by Massachusetts and Connecticut if they didn't ratify the constitution. They finally did, last out of the 13 original colonies. (Holding out for a better deal like typical Rhody's).

[Rockstar]

Trump has just talked directly to the leader of Taiwan, the first time a President-Elect has done so since 1979. This coming at a time when the mainland is especially annoyed at Taiwan because a pro-independence party candidate was elected in May. So, major tensions between Taiwan and China, and Trump throws some petrol on the fire, probably because he's been looking to build a hotel in Taipei since September.

The PRCs response should be.....interesting.....still, I imagine the US arms industry just exploded in delight, the potential for the ramping up on cross-strait tensions will mean Taiwan will be in the market for every anti-ship and anti-aircraft missile it can lay its hands on.

Read an article which if true leads me to think the phone call may have been in response to PRC nuke capable bombers with escorts circling the island of Tiawan two weeks prior.

[Jimbuna]

Intersting times ahead.

[Mr Quatro]

Read an article which if true leads me to think the phone call may have been in response to PRC nuke capable bombers with escorts circling the island of Tiawan two weeks prior.

We should surface our fleet of Ohio class submarines 12 miles off China's coast and have a ships barbecue. :yep:

[Oberon]

Read an article which if true leads me to think the phone call may have been in response to PRC nuke capable bombers with escorts circling the island of Tiawan two weeks prior.

Possible, but it's hardly the first time that the PRC has pulled a stunt like that, heck back during the 1996 crisis they were throwing missiles into the water 25 miles off the Taiwanese coastline. Bill didn't pick up the phone to Taipei (officially) then though. Instead he put half the US supply of aircraft carriers off the Chinese coast.
Trump made a goof, fortunately it wasn't a massive goof, since he isn't President yet, but it was still a major diplomatic faux-pas, and when you're talking about Taiwan, such faux-pas can be costly. Especially if he goes on the offensive against the Chinese economy which will force the PRC to do something with their military to take the peoples minds off the fact that their booming economy is as stable as their high speed rail network. A quick and decisive campaign against 'Formosa' would be the sort of thing that would be able to stir up patriotic pride amongst the citizens, take the peoples minds off the economic problems and assert Chinese power.
In short, President Trump should be wary of pushing nations into corners.

[eddie]

Now Iran is using China to warn about not changing the Nuclear deal we have with them. Iran sucks up to everyone, really beginning to dislike those jerks!

[Oberon]

Now Iran is using China to warn about not changing the Nuclear deal we have with them. Iran sucks up to everyone, really beginning to dislike those jerks!

My enemy's enemy.

Doesn't help that the US can't seem to decide which side to support, if any, if the Saudi-Iran Cold War. :hmmm:

[Mr Quatro]

Wait till Trump hears about this .... "What you going to do when Trump comes after you"?

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/as-trump-vows-to-stop-flow-of-jobs-overseas-us-plans-to-make-fighter-jets-in-india/ar-AAlaXNI?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=iehp


In recent months, Lockheed Martin and Boeing have made proposals to the Indian government to manufacture fighter jets — the F-16 Fighting Falcon and the F/A-18 Super Hornet — in India as the country seeks to modernize its rapidly aging fleet of largely Russian-built airplanes.
In both cases, the aviation companies would be building production facilities in India; Lockheed Martin proposes to move its entire F-16 assembly line from Texas to India, making India the sole producer of the single-engine combat aircraft.

[Rockstar]

Possible, but it's hardly the first time that the PRC has pulled a stunt like that, heck back during the 1996 crisis they were throwing missiles into the water 25 miles off the Taiwanese coastline. Bill didn't pick up the phone to Taipei (officially) then though. Instead he put half the US supply of aircraft carriers off the Chinese coast.
Trump made a goof, fortunately it wasn't a massive goof, since he isn't President yet, but it was still a major diplomatic faux-pas, and when you're talking about Taiwan, such faux-pas can be costly. Especially if he goes on the offensive against the Chinese economy which will force the PRC to do something with their military to take the peoples minds off the fact that their booming economy is as stable as their high speed rail network. A quick and decisive campaign against 'Formosa' would be the sort of thing that would be able to stir up patriotic pride amongst the citizens, take the peoples minds off the economic problems and assert Chinese power.
In short, President Trump should be wary of pushing nations into corners.

Always a possibilty for the end of the world to come about over a small island in the pacific. But in this case China didnt assert anything quite the opposite as its been said they have playing down Trumps conversation with Taiwan. They might even be squirming a bit.

The Chinese also were seeking guidance on Mr. Trump’s policy intentions, and White House officials said they didn’t know what they are, the administration official said.

“What you have seen in the past eight years is possibly too much predictability” from the U.S. in its approach to China, said Christopher Johnson, a former senior China analyst at the Central Intelligence Agency. “A little unpredictability is a good thing, but too much is scary. There’s a fine line there between good unpredictability and scary, and that’s the balance that has to be found.”

[Mr Quatro]

Always a possibilty for the end of the world to come about over a small island in the pacific. But in this case China didnt assert anything quite the opposite as its been said they have playing down Trumps conversation with Taiwan. They might even be squirming a bit.

This prophecy has a ring of truth to it ... you don't have to go there of course, but out of all of the prophecies that I have read this one seems to have more credence than the other ones.

Read that last line, "The Third World War will begin in a way no one would have anticipated - and from an unexpected place"

http://www.inthebeginning.com/articles/norway1968.htm

1968 Prophecy by 90 Year Old Woman in Norway

"First before Jesus comes and before the Third World War breaks out there will be a ‘détente’ like we have never had before. There will be peace between the super powers in the east and the west, and there will be a long peace. (Remember, that this was in 1968 when the cold war was at its highest. E. Minos) In this period of peace there will be disarmament in many countries, also in Norway and we are not prepared when it (the war) comes. The Third World War will begin in a way no one would have anticipated - and from an unexpected place.

[AVGWarhawk]

Trump states the new Air Force One in the works with Boeing will be cut. Cost overruns cited.

The project should never have been started. The current presidential aircraft works just fine.

[August]

1968 Prophecy by 90 Year Old Woman in Norway

The Third World War will begin in a way no one would have anticipated - and from an unexpected place.

Luxembourg. They're always scheming about something. :yep:

[Oberon]

"The Third World War will begin in a way no one would have anticipated - and from an unexpected place"


The Balkans, it's always the Balkans. :03:

Always a possibilty for the end of the world to come about over a small island in the pacific. But in this case China didnt assert anything quite the opposite as its been said they have playing down Trumps conversation with Taiwan. They might even be squirming a bit.

Indeed, they've been quite restrained about this which is not quite what I was expecting from Beijing, indeed it was something that was being discussed on Radio Four this morning, and they were talking to Kevin Rudd (of all people) who pointed out that the PRC is probably holding back to see if Trump changes his stance any when he goes from President-Elect to President proper, he called it 'strategic patience'.
He seemed to think there might be three groups in China at the moment who have differing thoughts on America and how things should go forward, the first group sees Trump as representing 'strategic uncertainty', while the second group sees 'strategic opportunities' where China can take over the role of leader of the globalist movement from America as the US goes back into a more nationalist standpoint, rejecting TPP and the potential of the US backing away from climate change agreements, China is already the leader in green energy, and they can get some political capital from appearing to be the reasonable voice on the world stage, and, of course there's the final group who are seeing 'difficulties' arising in the relationship between the US and China in terms of security policy questions, the 'broad triangular relationship with the Russians' and in particular on the Chinese economy.
Let's not forget that there's two main things that are important for the men in Beijing, keeping the country together and keeping the economy growing, and in more than a couple of instances those two items are linked, if the Chinese economy tanks then the gulf between the interior and the coastal cities becomes completely unsustainable (it's pretty close to being unsustainable at the moment despite Beijings best efforts to improve internal infrastructure, the economy boomed quicker than the government could keep up with it), and if that gulf gets too large then there is the risk of civil uprising, and in the worst case scenario a second revolution.
Of course there are always sticks that you can throw for the general public in order to take their minds off economic problems, and one of the most effective ones is a short and victorious war in order to stir up patriotic fervour. Take a look at Margaret Thatchers popularity before and after the Falklands war.
So really, it's in the best interests of western asia for China to remain stable and calm. After all, its leadership might not be fantastic, but it could be a whole lot worse.

[Mr Quatro]

the second group sees 'strategic opportunities' where China can take over the role of leader of the globalist movement from America as the US goes back into a more nationalist standpoint, rejecting TPP and the potential of the US backing away from climate change agreements,

Group #2 is not going to take over anytime soon:http://www.worldstopexports.com/chinas-top-10-exports/1952/

Top ten exports from China
Electronic equipment: US$600.3 billion (26.3% of total exports)
Machines, engines, pumps: $364.5 billion (16%)
Furniture, lighting, signs: $98.7 billion (4.3%)
Knit or crochet clothing: $83.8 billion (3.7%)
Clothing (not knit or crochet): $78.5 billion (3.4%)
Medical, technical equipment: $73.8 billion (3.2%)
Plastics: $65.8 billion (2.9%)
Vehicles: $62.7 billion (2.7%)
Iron or steel products: $60.6 billion (2.7%)
Footwear: $53.6 billion (2.3%)

Furniture, lighting and signs were the fastest-growing among the top 10 export categories, up 66.4% for the 5-year period starting in 2011.
In second place for improving export sales were plastics which rose 44.9%.
Chinese electronic equipment posted the third-fastest gain in value at 34.7%, followed by footwear up by 28.5%.

[Oberon]

Well, that's exactly the thing, it's in Chinas best interests for globalism to continue, which is one of the arguments used against it. The US has long been a force arguing in favour of globalism as a development of the free market system, as a part of laissez-faire economics. However, Trumps platform places nationalism (or Americanism as Yubba likes to put it) before globalism, which includes the potential for increasing import tariffs which tends to go against laissez-faire.
Of course, both have an element of correctness in them, western industry has long had a problem with competing with emerging markets, because western industry cannot make its products competitive and maintain a profit because of increasing overheads. Which means we need to find a way to change or adapt this situation, tariffs is one way but no-one can say for certain how successful that will be. Expansion into specialist markets which are not covered by the emerging nations is another way, and that's something that the UK has tried with its scientific industry and it has done very well with it. However the problem with increasing scientific industry is that it's not an industry that can have a universal employment radius, only a select group of citizens can actually work in it since they need to have adequate education. Teritary industry is another area, and that tends to be where most developed western nations put a lot of their trust, things like service industries, IT, and so forth. However, again, this sector doesn't employ in such a large radius as primary and secondary industries and in many incidences there's a education threshold which has to be passed in order to gain entry.
When you couple this with the increase in automation across the three sectors of industry then you have a time-bomb which is ticking down and there seems to be nothing anyone can do to stop it.
The front page of the Daily Fail Mail this morning had a headline (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4003756/Robots-steal-15m-jobs-says-bank-chief-Doom-laden-Carney-warns-middle-classes-hollowed-new-technology.html) which quoted the head of the Bank of Englands warning the other day that some 15 million jobs are at risk from growing automation, so where are those 15 million people going to go? Some people have dismissed this warning as 'doom and gloom', and indeed the tone of the Mail indicates a bias towards this, but it's a warning which has been echoed by many other people and indeed even a lay person can see that if the rate of automation in jobs continues at the pace that it has over the last century then there's going to be a massive problem just over the horizon, and tariffs and immigration control isn't going to stop it. It might slow it down a bit, but in turn it will create other major problems.
Getting back to the Chinese though, if Trump does go through with his economic plans (and I suspect that if he does they will be greatly watered down, Congressional Republicans seem to already be baulking at the idea of punishing businesses that leave the US (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38216632)) then things may get quite nasty in the economic world, and that may well have unintended consequences for other parts. :hmmm:

[August]

In short, President Trump should be wary of pushing nations into corners.


It sounds like you're saying that the President of the US ought to ask permission from the ChiComs before accepting a call from another national leader.

[AVGWarhawk]

It sounds like you're saying that the President of the US ought to ask permission from the ChiComs before accepting a call from another national leader.

The apology and bowing tour for the past 8 years has come to a conclusion.

[August]

The apology and bowing tour for the past 8 years has come to a conclusion.

Maybe Trump taking that call from the Taiwanese President was a signal in that direction.

[Oberon]

It sounds like you're saying that the President of the US ought to ask permission from the ChiComs before accepting a call from another national leader.

I'm saying that the President of the US should be aware of the geo-political nature of the world in which his or her country resides in.

[Jimbuna]

The apology and bowing tour for the past 8 years has come to a conclusion.

Maybe Trump taking that call from the Taiwanese President was a signal in that direction.

I hope so :yep:

[eddie]

Nice to see that the Pentagon does not have to follow orders from Congress. They can come up with more BS excuses as to why they can't complete an audit to show where all the money is going!

So how does the US Congress respond to a department that won't complete their audit, they vote to increase their budget,lol Neither party on Capital Hill gives a crap anymore. Defense Contractors are handing out so much money through lobbyists, why should they care. And if Trump thinks he can clean that up, all I can say to him is forget it Donald. It would take an act of Congress to slow down the Lobbyists, and why would they, they get too much money through them to do that.

Makes you wonder why we should vote anymore, nothing changes, just the same BS, just a different group of actors raking in the cash. They all suck!

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/12/2/1606621/-The-Pentagon-Still-Can-t-Pass-an-Audit-But-the-House-Voted-to-Increase-Its-Budget-Again-Anyway

[Mr Quatro]

Nice to see that the Pentagon does not have to follow orders from Congress. They can come up with more BS excuses as to why they can't complete an audit to show where all the money is going!

So how does the US Congress respond to a department that won't complete their audit, they vote to increase their budget,lol Neither party on Capital Hill gives a crap anymore. Defense Contractors are handing out so much money through lobbyists, why should they care. And if Trump thinks he can clean that up, all I can say to him is forget it Donald. It would take an act of Congress to slow down the Lobbyists, and why would they, they get too much money through them to do that.

Makes you wonder why we should vote anymore, nothing changes, just the same BS, just a different group of actors raking in the cash. They all suck!

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/12/2/1606621/-The-Pentagon-Still-Can-t-Pass-an-Audit-But-the-House-Voted-to-Increase-Its-Budget-Again-Anyway

I checked and the Pentagon is not on the list of the DHS ... maybe if they were someone could oversee it better:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Homeland_Security


DHS also constitutes the most diverse merger of federal functions and responsibilities, incorporating 22 government agencies into a single organization.

edited: Never mind: The Department of Homeland Security has received substantial criticism over excessive bureaucracy, waste, fraud, ineffectiveness and lack of transparency. Its information sharing centers have been accused of violating American civil liberties and targeting American citizens as potential threats to national security.

[Platapus]

I liked the comments that Obama made about Trump recently. Reminding people that we need to give Trump a chance and also pointing out that the job (PotUS) has a way of "waking you up" to the realities of being the chief executive.

I think we are already seeing this as Trump receives more and more specialized briefings and is changing from his campaign rhetoric to recognizing the realities of the job.

I can bet that Trump is saying the same things that every brand new president says while being briefed: "I had no idea it was like this."

Everything and every problem seems so simple when you are an ordinary citizen.

We will have plenty of time to hate President Trump. But let's wait until he actually does something worth of hate.

The possibility of brand new presidents is why we have mid-term elections and we all know how they can turn out after a new president enters office.

I did not want Trump as the Republican nominee nor did I vote for him. But he WILL be our president (I have confidence in the electors) and there is nothing I can do about it. So I will wait and see, just like everyone should, in my opinion.

We have had inexperienced people turn out to be pretty good presidents and we have had very experienced people turn out to be mediocre presidents. One never can tell.

I just think we need to give the man a chance.

[Rockstar]

I think the reason P.E.T. is said by some to have committed a faux pax, broke the rules, failed politically on a global scale by answering his telephone is because the media told them he did. Frankly I would have thought much less of the man and suspected of him being complete horsesarse and not very neighborly had he not picked up the phone and said hello.

I just can't imagine how anyone could be led to believe that the soon to be most powerful man in the world should be afraid to pick up a telephone because of what someone else might think. That's how I expect high school girls to behave. Not my President, then again he's not been sworn in yet and just a plain ol' citizen in country where he is free to talk to whom ever he damn well pleases.

[Oberon]

As President-Elect, I guess he does have some leeway, however as President he will not, and the policy of the United States since 1979 has been to recognize only one China, and that China is the PRC.
Generally speaking any negotiations between the US and Taiwan go through the American Institute in Taiwan, I think the last time any US president actually met with a Taiwanese one was back in the 1960s.
As Platapus has put it, Trump needs some waking up to the roles and responsibilities of being the President, which includes various regulations and procedures which must be adhered to in order to maintain stability.
He also needs someone to remove his twitter account. :/\\!!

[August]

I'm saying that the President of the US should be aware of the geo-political nature of the world in which his or her country resides in.

I'm aware that the Chinese on Taiwan have free elections and an open press and that the Communist regime which controls the mainland is not.

Interesting take on Trumps move from the Washington Post:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/trumps-taiwan-call-wasnt-a-blunder-it-was-brilliant/2016/12/05/d10169a2-bb00-11e6-ac85-094a21c44abc_story.html?utm_term=.ee234f7a85c4

[Rockstar]

Not sure what the arguement over who we are supposed to negogiate with is all about. Im fairly certain nobody negotiated anything Trump simply received a congratulatory phone call from Taiwan.

In spin we trust.

[eddie]

I have nothing against him talking to other heads of state. Isn't that part of his job? Like to see him try to talk to that nutjob in North Korea! Now that would be interesting,lol

[Onkel Neal]

I'm aware that the Chinese on Taiwan have free elections and an open press and that the Communist regime which controls the mainland is not.

Interesting take on Trumps move from the Washington Post:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/trumps-taiwan-call-wasnt-a-blunder-it-was-brilliant/2016/12/05/d10169a2-bb00-11e6-ac85-094a21c44abc_story.html?utm_term=.ee234f7a85c4


Trump knew precisely what he was doing in taking the call. He was serving notice on Beijing that it is dealing with a different kind of president — an outsider who will not be encumbered by the same Lilliputian diplomatic threads that tied down previous administrations. The message, as John Bolton correctly put it, was that “the president of the United States [will] talk to whomever he wants if he thinks it’s in the interest of the United States, and nobody in Beijing gets to dictate who we talk to.”



:Kaleun_Applaud:

[Oberon]

I'm aware that the Chinese on Taiwan have free elections and an open press and that the Communist regime which controls the mainland is not.

And what does that have to do with geo-politics? :hmmm:

I have nothing against him talking to other heads of state. Isn't that part of his job? Like to see him try to talk to that nutjob in North Korea! Now that would be interesting,lol

Except that the US doesn't recognize Taiwan as a state.

Not sure what the arguement over who we are supposed to negogiate with is all about. Im fairly certain nobody negotiated anything Trump simply received a congratulatory phone call from Taiwan.

In spin we trust.

It's about political recognition, the PRC believes Taiwan to be a rogue province, as such out of the 193 member states of the United Nations only 21 recognise Taiwan.
Take a look at this map:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/RC_%28Taiwan%29.png

The nations in green fully recognise Taiwan, the nations in blue have unofficial relations with Taiwan but do not fully recognise it.
Part of this bit of diplomatic wrangling involves political leaders not meeting with or speaking to the President of Taiwan in an official status. Usually when Taiwanese/US meetings happen it is with the President of Taiwan visiting the US on the way to a nation in Central America that recognises Taiwan, and the President is never formally treated as a head of state and it's usually low ranking US government officials or staff members they will meet in non-governmental surroundings.
There is a reason that this has been the norm for the past thirty years, because it works, Taiwan is still there, it's been a good place for the US to sell lots of weapons to, and there hasn't been a major exchange of fire between the PRC and Taiwan (who let's not forget are technically still at war) since 1958. Heck, if you want to get into the real nitty gritty, even the name Taiwan is a diplomatic nightmare, with some people recognising it, others preferring the usage of 'Republic of China', and others still preferring to refer to it as 'Formosa'.

The WaPo article is a fair thing, but you've got to bear in mind that Taiwan is a particular thorn in the side of the PRC, and it's a thorn which is a lot closer to the Chinese coastline than it is to the American one. At the moment Beijing is content to let the Taiwan issue simmer gently, it's not pleased with the new Taiwanese president, but so long as they're not too radical then Beijing has more important matters to attend to. The status quo and Taiwan being relatively ignored works in favour of Taiwan. The more fuss is kicked up, and the more that the spotlight is put on Taiwan, the more that Beijing might start to think that Taiwan is more trouble than it's worth and bump up the timetable for finishing the Chinese civil war.
Now, if you're happy with committing the US to a possible war with the Peoples Republic of China over Taiwan, then that's all fair and good. But if you're not, then the best course of action for America is to leave Taiwan and the Taiwanese issue alone.

[Reece]

Like to see him try to talk to that nutjob in North Korea! Now that would be interesting,lol
Yes I'd like to see that, who knows he might even get to meet Steven Seagal or Dennis Rodman.:D

[August]

Now, if you're happy with committing the US to a possible war with the Peoples Republic of China over Taiwan, then that's all fair and good. But if you're not, then the best course of action for America is to leave Taiwan and the Taiwanese issue alone.

That may be but you Brits certainly didn't want us to feel that way in WW2 even though England is much closer to Occupied Europe than it is to our shores too. Now perhaps that's an extreme example but if we're going to start abandoning democracies in the name of "geo politics" then where does the road end?

[Oberon]

That may be but you Brits certainly didn't want us to feel that way in WW2 even though England is much closer to Occupied Europe than it is to our shores too. Now perhaps that's an extreme example but if we're going to start abandoning democracies in the name of "geo politics" then where does the road end?

I recall it took a lot of work to swing that, and indeed it certainly helped that the Occupier of Occupied Europe declared war on you after the Japanese pulled off their little visit (of which it is the 75th anniversary today).
I get where you're coming from, and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth too, just as the continued sitting on the sidelines about the massacres in Syria also leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
The thing is, no-one has abandoned Taiwan at the moment, when President Carter made the Taiwan Relations Act in 1979, he put in it the provisio that "the United States will make available to Taiwan such defense articles and defense services in such quantity as may be necessary to enable Taiwan to maintain a sufficient self-defense capabilities", however how far these services and articles go is up to the President and Congress.
It's a sort of ambiguity which is designed to let Taiwan know that the US has got its back if the PRC decides to invade, but that the US also reserves the right to not step in if Taiwan does something provocative and then tries to run under the skirt of the US when the PRC comes looking for pay-back.
It keeps a lot of options on the table, and quite frankly it has worked perfectly fine since 1979. Everyone is happy with the status-quo, it works for Beijing since they use Taiwan as a major conduit for trade, it works for Taiwan because they have grown rich from this trade and they can spend that money on US weapons, and it works for the US because they have a non-communist doorstep on the Chinese border and they can sell a lot of weapons to it. Taiwan is also probably used for periodic US intel activities, however that is probably extremely hushed up because no-one wants to provoke Beijing over it.
It's not in the best interests of all involved to change the way things are, if Trump wants to attack Chinas economy, there are better ways to do it than putting Taiwan in un-necessary risk. Although ultimately, in my opinion at least, trying to take on China like Reagan took on the Soviet Union is playing with fire. Reagan got lucky in that he had a good Soviet counterpart to work with, Gorbachev was not a hardliner. Xi Jinping is not Gorbachev, ok he's not really a hardliner either, but he's not as soft as Gorbachev was when pushed.
Of course, there's not many options that China has for retaliation since they are very dependent on the US, so it is entirely possible that Trumps plan will work, and China will fold, but it's a real gamble and if it doesn't pay off then there'll be a lot of problems for the world. Particular when you factor in that the US cannot invade and occupy China, and China cannot invade and occupy the US. So whatever conflict should happen will be primarily trade based, and the US can win that but you've really got to be careful about pushing a nuclear armed state into a corner, because if they feel as if they have nothing left to lose....then I guess we get to see how good this ABM system is. :hmmm:

[Oberon]

Not that I think it'll come to that, if I'm honest. The WaPo article does make a fair point on reflection, but if that was Trumps intention then it was a bit more sledgehammer than scalpel, and rather clumsy politics. Not something you really want in a leader of a powerful nation, but he's still in training so with any luck someone took him into a corner and explained carefully why what he did wasn't a good idea and why he should refrain from such things after he officially becomes President.

Honestly though, if Trump wants to take down China...all he really needs to do is wait. Time is not on Beijings side, their growth is slowing, their infrastructure and internal growth really isn't as far along as it needs to be at this point in time, there's a crunch coming for the Chinese markets and it terrifies Beijing, they're doing all they can to either stave off the crunch or make the impact as gentle as possible, but it's questionable if they're going to be able to do enough.
There's also opportunities there, I imagine, ways to actually reach out and work with China in order to try and keep it afloat whilst benefiting American industries. Particularly when it comes to things like infrastructure. Helping China up might actually be more creative and beneficial than trying to knock it down. However, I think that such a thing would require more international co-operation than the human race is capable of, so instead the rollercoaster ride will continue. :yeah:

[August]

...so with any luck someone took him into a corner and explained carefully why what he did wasn't a good idea and why he should refrain from such things after he officially becomes President.

I've yet to see a valid argument against it. There's been lots of hand wringing, mainly by people who would not have anything good to say about Trump if their lives depended on it anyways, but little in the way of solid ramifications. Mostly "Ooh the Chinese will be irritated!"

Again the Chinese or any other foreign nation for that matter do not control who the President of the United States can talk to, and if just taking a phone call from the leader of a democratic nation risks war with a tyrannical regime then war is inevitable anyways.

[Bilge_Rat]

man, the hypocrisy over the Taiwan phone call is so thick, you can cut it with a knife.

Communist China invaded and absorbed Tibet in the 1950s. Since then the Dalai Lama has wandered the planet to stir up support for a free Tibet. Under China's "One China" policy, no foreign leader can meet with the Dalai Lama, yet Obama has met with the Dalai Lama 4 times, including this summer, each time over the criticism of China's communist dictators.

Obama meets with Dalai Lama, angering China

"The U.S. government made solemn commitments. It acknowledges that there is only one China, that Tibet is an inseparable part of China and will never recognize the so-called Tibetan government in exile," the spokesman, Lu Kang, said during a daily press briefing Tuesday.

"Under the cloak of religion, the 14th Dalai Lama peddles his political ambitions of dividing China all around the world," the spokesman added. "We ask all countries and governments not to give him any room to carry out such campaigns, even less risking arousing the firm opposition from the 1.3 billion Chinese people."

Nationalistic Chinese state-run tabloid Global Times said the meeting showed Obama's "mean side."


http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/15/politics/obama-dalai-lama/

How did "liberals" react? They praised Obama for standing up to a dictatorship in the name of democracy and respect for human rights;

I am amazed how far so called "liberals" will twist and turn to criticize every action Trump does. The phone call to Taiwan was not a mistake, it was a carefully planned shot across the bow to China.

Now to all the "liberals", why do you praise Obama when he violates China's "One China" policy, but criticize Trump when he does the same thing?

[STEED]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/0e/0c/45/0e0c45d9f1b0c0b9e9bdfec08f557692.jpg

http://variety.com/2016/biz/news/donald-trump-time-person-of-the-year-1201935932/

[Oberon]

Now to all the "liberals", why do you praise Obama when he violates China's "One China" policy, but criticize Trump when he does the same thing?

Tibet has already been invaded, you can't invade it any more than it has been. Taiwan has not.

I've yet to see a valid argument against it. There's been lots of hand wringing, mainly by people who would not have anything good to say about Trump if their lives depended on it anyways, but little in the way of solid ramifications. Mostly "Ooh the Chinese will be irritated!"

Again the Chinese or any other foreign nation for that matter do not control who the President of the United States can talk to, and if just taking a phone call from the leader of a democratic nation risks war with a tyrannical regime then war is inevitable anyways.

Perhaps war is inevitable, there's certainly been a bubbling undercurrent of the new 'red scare' in America since the early 2000s which was derailed briefly by terrorism and Russia, but I imagine will make a comeback soon.
I doubt it'll happen though because both sides have too much to lose at the moment, it's when it gets to the point where there is little to lose that war becomes more likely.
In regards to ramifications, I think that Americans have come to the realisation over the past decade that China isn't as strong as they originally thought it was, I don't see quite so frequently the morose predictions of Chinese dominance any more, so I think people have realised that the rapid Chinese growth was built on a house of cards and if it gets pushed too hard it will collapse like one.
The risk comes in what happens if and when the Chinese collapse, especially if it is portrayed as being the result of American actions. One can argue that there is the potential for a collapse on the horizon for China anyway, but if Washington wants to push China into that collapse then it runs the risk of being embroiled in it.
Yes, I'll admit, most of us 'liberals'™ over-estimated the Chinese response, I thought they'd reply a bit more forcefully than they did, but it seems that both sides have down-played the phone call a bit in the aftermath so they probably got some very angry people talking to them, probably from Beijing.

I'll end this here since we're going in circles, and I guess we'll see what Trump has up his sleeves for China and what China will do in return. Whilst the US certainly has more power than China, it shouldn't think itself invincible and untouchable. :hmmm:

[Oberon]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/0e/0c/45/0e0c45d9f1b0c0b9e9bdfec08f557692.jpg

http://variety.com/2016/biz/news/donald-trump-time-person-of-the-year-1201935932/

If anyone visualises this year, I guess it is him.

[Bilge_Rat]

Tibet has already been invaded, you can't invade it any more than it has been. Taiwan has not.



with all due respect, that argument makes no sense whatsoever.

[Mr Quatro]

Really heavy competition there, uh?

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2348643/donald-trump-named-time-magazines-person-of-the-year-2016/

IT'S TRUMP TIME Donald Trump named Time magazine’s Person of the Year beating

Nigel Farage, Beyonce, Vladimir Putin and Hillary Clinton

The iconic award is given to the person who has had the biggest impact on the world over the past year

Yet, I do think the tide is turning on people starting to accept Trump as the POTUS. Is Time magazine a good barometer?

I don't think so ... time will tell. :haha::yep:

[Oberon]

with all due respect, that argument makes no sense whatsoever.

Basically, what can China do to Tibet if people meet with the Dalai Lama? Nothing, they've already invaded and occupied it.
What can China do to Taiwan though?

[Bilge_Rat]

Basically, what can China do to Tibet if people meet with the Dalai Lama? Nothing, they've already invaded and occupied it.

How about round up and jail every activist in Tibet who wants their country to be free and who is inspired to protest by the Dalai Lama meeting with the leader of the free world.

The 6th Tibet Work Forum meeting in late August, held to determine central government policy for the region for years to come, emphasized the imperatives of security and “stability,” but authorities failed to address systematic ethnic and religious discrimination and restrictions, or the profound socioeconomic changes brought by massive re-housing and resettlement campaigns in which Tibetans were compelled to participate.

Central government authorities continue to deploy officials in villages and monasteries and have expanded surveillance mechanisms to the grassroots level, a development which appears to have contributed to more frequent arrests of local community leaders, environmental activists, villagers involved in social and cultural activities, and writers and singers whose works are considered sensitive.

In July, Tenzin Delek Rinpoche—one of Tibet’s highest-profile political prisoners—died in detention. In violation of the relevant regulations, authorities refused to release his body or investigate the circumstances of his death. Also in July, Lobsang Yeshe, a village head imprisoned for his role in a local anti-mining protest in May 2014, died in prison following reports that he had been mistreated. Another high profile prisoner, a young Lhasa NGO worker Tenzin Choedrak, died in December, two days after he was abruptly released early from detention.

Protests, particularly against mining and land acquisition, continue despite threats from local authorities. Security forces beat and arrested peaceful protestors in Chamdo in April and in Gannan in June. Following mass protests against mining in a supposedly protected part of Qinghai in 2014, mining operations were reportedly closed down, although the reasons for this remain unclear. After public outcry over corruption in the school exam system, authorities in the Tibet Autonomous Region and Qinghai introduced tighter regulations and prosecuted offenders.

Seven more Tibetans self-immolated in 2015, bringing the total since 2009 to 143.

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2016/country-chapters/china-and-tibet#bbae7b

Human Rights Situation in Tibet

Human rights conditions in Tibet remain dismal. Under the Chinese occupation, the Tibetan people are denied most rights guaranteed in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights including the rights to self-determination, freedom of speech, assembly, movement, expression and travel.

Political Prisoners

China’s consistent use of excessive military force to stifle dissent has resulted in widespread human rights abuses including multiple cases of arbitrary arrests, political imprisonment, torture and execution. Human rights groups have documented at least 60 deaths of peaceful demonstrators since 1987.

Human rights groups have confirmed, by name, over 700 Tibetan political prisoners in Tibet, although there are likely to be hundreds more whose names are not confirmed. Many are detained without charge or trial for up to four years through administrative regulations entitled “re-education through labor”. Also, over the past year unrest has spread from urban areas into the countryside.

Credible reports of mistreatment and torture of detainees and political prisoners in Tibet are widespread, including beatings, shocks with electric batons, deprivation of sleep or food, exposure to cold and other brutalities. Human rights and humanitarian organizations are denied access to prisons and detention centers in Tibet.

http://tibetoffice.org/tibet-info/invasion-after

What can China do to Taiwan though?

what can they do? invade? because of a phone call? give me a break.

Seems to me, based on your logic, that Obama meeting with the Dalai Lama is a much bigger blunder since it will lead to immediate repression in Tibet.

[Oberon]

what can they do? invade? because of a phone call? give me a break.

Seems to me, based on your logic, that Obama meeting with the Dalai Lama is a much bigger blunder since it will lead to immediate repression in Tibet.

It certainly is a diplomatic faux-pas, we had the same situation when Dave met with him, and yes, it could well have lead to greater repression in Tibet, which is terrible.
And no, I don't think that a single phone call will cause an invasion, and I have not once stated in this thread that the phone call will cause an invasion. However diplomatic recognition of Taiwan, which a phone call between the US President (not President-Elect) and the leader of Taiwan could constitute as, would increase the risk of an invasion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Taiwan_Strait_Crisis

[Rockstar]

man, the hypocrisy over the Taiwan phone call is so thick, you can cut it with a knife.

Communist China invaded and absorbed Tibet in the 1950s. Since then the Dalai Lama has wandered the planet to stir up support for a free Tibet. Under China's "One China" policy, no foreign leader can meet with the Dalai Lama, yet Obama has met with the Dalai Lama 4 times, including this summer, each time over the criticism of China's communist dictators.



http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/15/politics/obama-dalai-lama/

How did "liberals" react? They praised Obama for standing up to a dictatorship in the name of democracy and respect for human rights;

I am amazed how far so called "liberals" will twist and turn to criticize every action Trump does. The phone call to Taiwan was not a mistake, it was a carefully planned shot across the bow to China.

Now to all the "liberals", why do you praise Obama when he violates China's "One China" policy, but criticize Trump when he does the same thing?

It's called extremism

[Oberon]

Yup, I am a politically correct gif terrorist. :yeah:

Praise be to imgur!

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/misunderstood-muslim.jpeg

[Bilge_Rat]

you don't seem to understand that the U.S. has formally stated that it will defend Taiwan so any invasion by China would automatically trigger WW3.

The United States position on Taiwan is reflected in "the six assurances to Taiwan", the Three Communiqués, and the Taiwan Relations Act (TRA).[26] The Six Assurances include: 1. The United States has not agreed to set a date for ending arms sales to Taiwan; 2. The United States has not agreed to hold prior consultations with the Chinese on arms sales to Taiwan; 3. The United States would not play any mediation role between Taiwan and Beijing; 4. The United States has not agreed to revise the Taiwan Relations Act; 5. The United States has not altered its position regarding sovereignty over Taiwan; and 6. The United States would not exert pressure on Taiwan to enter into negotiations with the Chinese.[27] The "Three Communiqués" include The Shanghai Communiqué, The Normalisation Communiqué, and The August 17 Communiqué, which pledged to abrogate official US-ROC relations, remove US troops from Taiwan and gradually end the arms sale to Taiwan, but with the latter of no timeline to do so, an effort made by James Lilley, the Director of American Institute in Taiwan.

Despite friendly relations with China, United States President George W. Bush was asked on 25 April 2001, "if Taiwan were attacked by China, do we (The U.S.) have an obligation to defend the Taiwanese?" He responded, "Yes, we do...and the Chinese must understand that. The United States would do whatever it took to help Taiwan defend herself."[28] He made it understood that "though we (China and the U.S.) have common interests, the Chinese must understand that there will be some areas where we disagree." [28]



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan%E2%80%93United_States_relations#1979.E2.80. 93present

The U.S. does not see China has an Ally, only as a great power it has to deal with.

Why do you think the U.S. deliberately excluded China from the TPP. The TPP was designed to carve Asian countries away from China's economic orbit.

Why do you think the U.S. ships and aircraft keep entering what China considers to be "its" territory?

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/31/world/asia/south-china-sea-us-navy.html?_r=0

The phone call between Trump and the Taiwanese president was negotiated for weeks. It is naive to think Trump's team did not analyse all the ramifications.

[Oberon]

The US used to see China as an ally, that's why they started the whole One China policy of theirs to begin with. In regards to the defence of Taiwan, the Taiwan Relations Act states:

"the United States will make available to Taiwan such defense articles and defense services in such quantity as may be necessary to enable Taiwan to maintain a sufficient self-defense capabilities"

The level of these services is to be decided by the President and Congress, and like NATO it could range from the entire US Navy to a single frigate. It's deliberately kept vague in order to discourage Taiwan from unilaterally declaring independence and thus provoking China into attacking them.
It's a finely tuned balancing diplomatic act which has been in place, adhered to and worked for more than thirty years. Deciding to tear this all up doesn't make sense to me, but then again there's a lot about America that's not making sense to me at the moment so I guess that's nothing new.
If America wants to go ahead and take on the Chinese, then I guess that's their perogative, they have the advantage at the moment and it would be a nice big victory for Trump if he can get China to back down. But if he doesn't then unfortunate things might happen.
Heck, everyone was running scared about the Syrian no-fly zone, I'm not sure how poking China is that much better. :hmmm:


EDIT: Never mind, forget it, I'll stop now.

[Bilge_Rat]

well actually I did want to make a further point.

There was a time when the U.S. and China were "allies", but that was a marriage of convenience. When Nixon went to China in 1972, both partners had very specific aims.

The U.S. wanted to: 1) improve relations with China to use as a counter to the USSR; and 2) get a freer hand in dealing with Vietnam;

China wanted to: 1) improve relations with USA to use as a counter to the USSR; and 2) obtain international recognition of its government.

Neither aim is still current, 2 is long gone and so is 1 since Russia is no longer a superpower (although it still thinks it is :ping:).

The main "conflict" for the next 50 years will be USA vs China, both are now importers of raw materials and competing for ever diminishing resources, so yes, a conflict is probably inevitable, although it may not occur until 2050-2100.

While the West has been preoccupied by Russia's actions in Ukraine/Syria, China has been unilaterally expanding into the South China Sea, laying claim to very resource rich regions and pushing into territory claimed by Japan, Vietnam, Indonesia and the Philippines. There are potentially enormous amounts of oil and natural gas deposits under the South China Sea and China wants to get full access to them.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/South_China_Sea_claims_map.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_in_the_South_China_Sea

Throwing Taiwan overboard in 1979 made sense within the context of the USA-USSR Cold War, but that is no longer relevant. If China is going to keep making aggressive moves and ignore established rules, there is no reason for the USA to feel bound by them either. Within that context, leaving open the possibility of closer Taiwan-USA ties is an interesting opening gambit.

[Onkel Neal]

One thing is clear; Trump is not afraid of picking controversial cabinet members.

Defense Secretary: Retired Gen. James Mattis; vocal critic of the Iran nuclear deal

Commerce Secretary: Wilbur Ross; owner of Sago Mine, a West Virginia coal mine where a dozen miners lost their lives in a 2006 explosion

Health and Human Services Secretary: Tom Price; strong advocate of repealing Obamacare

Attorney General: Jeff Sessions ; staunch and long time opponent of illegal immigration (aka the Democratic Voter Seeding Program)

National Security Adviser: Michael Flynn; lifelong Democrat who is in favor of stronger ties with Russia

I can't call Trump shy and cautious.

[Aktungbby]

I'm beginning to like him; he's pissing off the Chinese and not spending money on a new Air Force One!:yeah:

[Onkel Neal]

Oh, and Trump names Scott Pruitt, the Oklahoma attorney general suing EPA on climate change, to head the EPA, lol

[Mr Quatro]

Let me know if and when throwing tax payers money at the climate change problem works.

We didn't cause the problem ... it will continue and even if you could prove that fossil fuels cause the problems of the poles melting you would have to make China be first at cleaning up their act before it could do any good.

What year would the problem be solved with an effort like we had for going to the moon?

[Onkel Neal]

Yeah, well I don't want to go offtopic, but this administration will certainly be different than the last one

[Mr Quatro]

Yeah, well I don't want to go offtopic, but this administration will certainly be different than the last one

True, better than Mccain's would've been though ... this little ole fence sitter Obama ... saved thousands of our servicemen's lives by not going into Syria.

[AVGWarhawk]

One thing is clear; Trump is not afraid of picking controversial cabinet members.

Defense Secretary: Retired Gen. James Mattis; vocal critic of the Iran nuclear deal

Commerce Secretary: Wilbur Ross; owner of Sago Mine, a West Virginia coal mine where a dozen miners lost their lives in a 2006 explosion

Health and Human Services Secretary: Tom Price; strong advocate of repealing Obamacare

Attorney General: Jeff Sessions ; staunch and long time opponent of illegal immigration (aka the Democratic Voter Seeding Program)

National Security Adviser: Michael Flynn; lifelong Democrat who is in favor of stronger ties with Russia

I can't call Trump shy and cautious.

Trump is not really influenced to pick anyone. All are fair game controversy or not. For me, that ends the good old boy system in my view.

Mattis reminds me of a pit bull. Ok in my book.

Ross I can not comment on. However, coal and WV are like peas and carrots. WV needs all the help it can get.

Price does equal bye bye Obamacare in some form or bits of it.

Flynn...it is time to work with Russia IMO.

I call Trump something new on the world stage and how things will go down in the coming years. Totally different than the patsy previous 8 years. Political correctness just took a vacation.

[Aktungbby]

^ that's scantily clad Melania Trump in your prize coffe cup isn't it!:shucks: MADE YA LOOK:O:

[AVGWarhawk]

^ that's scantily clad Melania Trump in your prize coffe cup isn't it!:shucks: MADE YA LOOK:O:


I have not seen the compromising pictures of Melania.

[Onkel Neal]

I have not seen the compromising pictures of Melania.

You will have to google then, we do not want to link them here (again)

[Rockin Robbins]

When you're making a deal, it's important for the other party to know that you're willing to walk away from a deal that doesn't work for you. They have to believe it.

A perfect example was our $4.00 per gallon gasoline. Obama was perfectly happy to let it rise to $5.00 or more and his answer was that we'd just have to learn to live with less, like Jimmy Carter said. He said that we would do nothing about it and continue to buy at extortionist prices from countries who hate us.

When others said that we are the Saudi Arabia of oil and could pump our own, Obama ridiculed the idea. He said we couldn't pump enough to move the needle and it would be a waste of money to try.

However it wasn't necessary to pump one drop of oil. It was only necessary for the OPEC countries to BELIEVE we resolved to pump oil. The prices fell before we even got production fully underway. And what happened then?

OPEC doubled down, cutting prices even further in a ploy to break the financial back of American oil companies. Didn't work. Efficiency gains to American oil production vs antiquated Middle East methods means that American companies are pumping even at these prices and making a profit.

When an American president ridicules American industry and American workers and denigrates their ability to get the job done we need a new president. He erected every barrier he could think of and they succeeded anyway. Thanks for the help Mr President. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Who knows what Trump brings to the table, but it's better than that.

[August]

When you're making a deal, it's important for the other party to know that you're willing to walk away from a deal that doesn't work for you. They have to believe it.

A perfect example was our $4.00 per gallon gasoline. Obama was perfectly happy to let it rise to $5.00 or more and his answer was that we'd just have to learn to live with less, like Jimmy Carter said. He said that we would do nothing about it and continue to buy at extortionist prices from countries who hate us.

When others said that we are the Saudi Arabia of oil and could pump our own, Obama ridiculed the idea. He said we couldn't pump enough to move the needle and it would be a waste of money to try.

However it wasn't necessary to pump one drop of oil. It was only necessary for the OPEC countries to BELIEVE we resolved to pump oil. The prices fell before we even got production fully underway. And what happened then?

OPEC doubled down, cutting prices even further in a ploy to break the financial back of American oil companies. Didn't work. Efficiency gains to American oil production vs antiquated Middle East methods means that American companies are pumping even at these prices and making a profit.

When an American president ridicules American industry and American workers and denigrates their ability to get the job done we need a new president. He erected every barrier he could think of and they succeeded anyway. Thanks for the help Mr President. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Who knows what Trump brings to the table, but it's better than that.

Well said.

[Platapus]

My opinion is that if you have a limited supply of a resource as valuable and as of strategic importance as oil is, that it is better to use other countries' supply and keep your own supply for later.

Soon, perhaps in some of our lifetimes, the middle east will run out of profitable oil. Without oil, the ME is not all that important. Wouldn't it be nice if the US had large supplies that we could choose to sell at what ever price we want?

I just hope that Canada is not making a strategic mistake in selling as much of their oil, that they are, instead of saving it.

Perhaps the enduring superpower will be the last country that still has oil?

Perhaps the US should increase their import of ME oil simply to deplete there supply sooner and make our supply more valuable?

The fungibility of oil makes this more difficult, however.

[AVGWarhawk]

You will have to google then, we do not want to link them here (again)

:haha::o:timeout:

[Mr Quatro]

I just thought of something ... you know like Von Zipper in those Beach Blanket movies :o

What if Donald Trump picks Romney for his Secretary of State.

He could wind up running against him for POTUS in 2020 ...
not good says my Von Zipper way of thinking. :hmmm:

[Platapus]

What if Donald Trump picks Romney for his Secretary of State.

He could wind up running against him for POTUS in 2020 ...
not good says my Von Zipper way of thinking. :hmmm:

I don't see the problem. If Trump turns out to be a good president, he will run for re-election. If he turns out to be a poor president, we will have a legitimate candidate to nominate after seeing how he performs as SoS.

On the short-buss list for SoS, Romney seems the pick of the litter.

[Oberon]

#DumpStarWars

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-38261402

https://media.tenor.co/images/a1ce1d92b9933dbc28e93e227394972d/raw

[August]

Soon, perhaps in some of our lifetimes, the middle east will run out of profitable oil.

They may run out of easy oil but they have much more than we do in tar sands. If we can make a profit on it then i'd think they can too.

[Oberon]

tar sands.

I thought that's what they put in their maple syrup? :03:

[August]

I thought that's what they put in their maple syrup? :03:

The best maple syrup comes from south of the border.

[Oberon]

Mexico? :o

[August]

Mexico? :o

https://img.pandawhale.com/72600-RDJ-speechless-gif-NOPE-robert-zNif.gif

[Rockstar]

Mexico? :o

No, in Dillon South Carolina. http://www.thesouthoftheborder.com

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/9d/d2/09/9dd20944fcf7a4337963311e51775f15.jpg

[Platapus]

Rudy Giuliani won't have a cabinet position in this administration

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/12/09/rudy-giuliani-out-contention-for-cabinet-post.html

I could not understand how he could even have been considered for SoS, but I am happy he is out.

[Skybird]

This administration has written "conflict of interests" written all over it. It starts with the role of his daughter Ivanka, and ends with the third Golden Sacks manager appointed for the cabinet. Some other appointments are declarations of war against the according departments.

I expected something like this, but not that Trump would be shameless enough to appoint such names this openly. Maybe I should have known better. He must feel very secure.

The party will be short. The crash afterwards all the more harder. The hangover at the very end may even qualify for a world record.

But as you make your bed, so you must lie.

If you are in paper investments, you may want to switch from short-term profit-prospects to longterm protection considerations. What goes up steep, must come down even faster. Alchemy does not work, and physics still does not know about any perpetuum mobile.

[Skybird]

Now he even makes his own - mind you: very powerful - intel services his enemy! :har: How retarded is this?!

Everybody hush-hush up the trees, rabid dog is on a biting frenzy!

And a Russian bed-fellow as foreign secretary. :haha:

I appreciate that the show already starts earlier than announced. I'm confident that we will get entertained to death. Americans in special - but us Europeans in general as well.

And this all is just the supporting film - wait until the main feature has started!:up: :D

[eddie]

:haha::haha:

[Mr Quatro]

Donald Trump is suppose to pick his SOS today ... I'm so happy that this rumor says it won't be Mr Romney :)

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/roger-stone-trump-interviewed-romney-to-torture-him/ar-AAltVpO?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=U450DHP


Roger Stone, a longtime adviser to Donald Trump, says the president-elecrt interviewed Mitt Romney for the secretary of State position just to "torture him" for his former criticism.
In an appearance on InfoWars Sunday, Stone said Trump had been toying with Romney.
"Donald Trump was interviewing Mitt Romney for Secretary of State in order to torture him," Stone said on InfoWars (http://www.infowars.com/roger-stone-trump-was-torturing-romney-all-along/). "To toy with him. And given the history, that's completely understandable. Mitt Romney crossed a line. He didn't just oppose Trump, which is his democratic right, he called him a phony and a fraud. And a con man. And that's not the kind of man you want as Secretary of State."
Something is a little strange about this man though


Stone, a longtime political operative who has Richard Nixon's face tattooed on his back, left Trump's campaign last year and does not have a position on the transition.

[Jimbuna]

ExxonMobil CEO Tillerson looks the most likely choice for SoS

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-picks-exxonmobil-ceo-rex-tillerson-for-secretary-of-state/2016/12/12/23ce9c80-c0e3-11e6-897f-918837dae0ae_story.html?utm_term=.01d791a55d69

[Mr Quatro]

Only four (4) more days left to post in the 2016 US Presidential election thread. It all comes down to this ... Electoral College voting day December 19th:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/the-electoral-voters-speak-and-theyre-not-out-for-a-revolt/ar-AAlAxyj?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=iehp


The Associated Press tried to reach all 538 electors and interviewed more than 330 of them, finding widespread Democratic aggravation with the electoral process but little expectation that the hustle of anti-Trump maneuvering can derail him. For that to happen, Republican-appointed electors would have to stage an unprecedented defection and Democrats would need to buck tradition, too, by peeling away from Hillary Clinton and swinging behind a consensus candidate in sufficient numbers.


Started June 15th = (6) months and 300 pages later :o

[mapuc]

Now that we are getting closed to the second "election" I have noticed some of my friends have high hope that these electoral will - Forget about their obligation -and put their vote on Clinton instead.

As mentioned before I'm not a Trump or a Clinton fan, but I'm a supporters of what the people choose and if some of these electoral should forget what their job is and thereby give the White House to the candidate who came second. I see this as they have mocked the election and thereby the people who had put their vote on Trump

That's how I feel about it.

Markus

[eddie]

Trump will be the president Markus, we will get to see how Corporate America runs the country now. Can hardly wait!:haha:

[Platapus]

I think the Electors should follow their respective state's laws.

[Sailor Steve]

As mentioned before I'm not a Trump or a Clinton fan, but I'm a supporters of what the people choose and if some of these electoral should forget what their job is and thereby give the White House to the candidate who came second. I see this as they have mocked the election and thereby the people who had put their vote on Trump

That's how I feel about it.
The funny thing is, the people who are pushing for this give their reason as Clinton won the popular vote, so she is who the people really wanted and the Electoral College system is mocking the election. I don't agree, but some of those folks really believe that, so they think they are in the right.