Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine [Archive] - Page 3

Dan D

03-06-14, 05:09 AM

I guess to answer this, "Russia joining the EU yes or no", you first have to make up your mind about what the EU really is or what it should be in your opinion.

If I take for example the EU-sceptic view that seems to prevail in the UK, where there are statements that the EU should be about a common market and free trade only and nothing else, what then speaks against Russia joining the EU?

That the US won't join the EU is obvious, the US is not part of Europe. But the US and the EU are about to make a free trade agreement. Why would they do that?

The protesters in the Ukraine (blue yellow flag) who were waving the EU flag (blue with yellow stars) certainly were thinking that the EU is more than about free trade. They are probably mistaken about what the EU is and their hopes will be disappointed.

The Ukraine and the EU were about to make a free trade agreement, that failed. I can't remember why.

People here have pointed out that the EU itsself has no army, which is correct, and therefore it can't "fight Russia". Should the EU really have an army and should it be in a position to wage wars against other nations? If then Russia joins the EU, the EU would have a powerful army, hehe.

There seems to be a lot of confusion about what the EU is.

And, the very same people who describe the EU as weak and incompetent and about to collapse in five years (prediction from 2010) at the same time, if it supports their view, denounce the EU as an unstoppable evil empire which is so powerful that it soon will control every part of your individual life It can't be both at the same time. I am just saying.

Jimbuna

03-06-14, 05:37 AM

Skybird

03-06-14, 06:22 AM

Europe does not end in Kamchatka.

Nor should the EU even wish to share borders with the explosive southern and ME places of former Soviet Islamic republics. The EU is totally inapt to deal with these dangerous challenges that could blow up again any time. It already completely fails about far smaller foreign political challenges.

Russians by huge majority, both the ordinary man on the street and in politics, do not like NATO.

One really needs to be very disconnected from realities to treat these scenarios as realistic options. One could as well speculate about the united States joining the Russian planned Eurasian and tax union. It might reduce tensions between the two - so could be what in theory should be?

Skybird

03-06-14, 06:28 AM

A referendum is announced on the Crimean peninsula for March 16th. Serves the Russian interest, but is imo the only reasonable way out of this standoff, as I already said earlier.

Libertaristic as I tend to be in my thinking, I have no other choice than to leave the decision by whom the majority of people in a region wants to get governed, to those whom are concerned: the population living in said region. These are people that in the past days have not been shuttled in in a hurry by Moscow to change the ethnic mixture on the ground and so to influence the outcome, but people living there since very long time, decades generations. Any referendum by them regarding their loyalty, morally is valid. Kiew will need to live with it - and the Russians will not leave them any other choice anyway.

Of course , a libertarian's choice would be to vote for not beign governed by anyone, and would be a vote against any state in general.

Jimbuna

03-06-14, 07:06 AM

Crimean MPs decide to join Russia

No surprises there then and an indication of how the end game may well turn out despite the fact even Russia realise it would be unconstitutional?

MPs in Crimea have asked Moscow to allow the southern Ukrainian region to become part of the Russian Federation.

Parliament said if its request was granted, Crimean citizens could give their view in a referendum on 16 March.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26465962

Oberon

03-06-14, 07:30 AM

The US Air Force is sending six additional F-15 jets from Lakenheath in Suffolk, UK, to Lithuania. They are being sent to bolster the existing "Baltic Air Policing" mission and will be based less than 480km (300 miles) from Ukraine.

The USS Taylor and the USS Mount Whitney were already in the Black Sea as part of the Sochi protection detail, the Mount Whitney has left the Turkish port of Samsun (since warships of nations that do not border the Black Sea can only remain in the waters for 21 days) but the Taylor is still there for repairs since she ran aground earlier.

Jimbuna

03-06-14, 08:32 AM

Just watched the latest Sky News update and it would appear there are only one or two 'Russian' soldiers at each of the Crimean bases, the vast majority having left overnight.

Putin may well be leaving it to the Crimean parliament to make the waves now, or standing aside for a little while to hinder the commencement of the inevitable sanctions that would probably commence soon had he not partially stood his forces down.

A good political chess move I suspect.

Schroeder

03-06-14, 10:02 AM

A referendum is announced on the Crimean peninsula for March 16th. Serves the Russian interest, but is imo the only reasonable way out of this standoff, as I already said earlier.

While I don't doubt that a majority would vote for becoming part of Russia I don't think such an election will be fair and open under these circumstances. I rather think there will be a few guys with flags and guns who will tell you what you'll have to vote. Let alone that I don't trust the official result which is most likely pre set by Moscow anyway.

Skybird

03-06-14, 11:53 AM

While I don't doubt that a majority would vote for becoming part of Russia I don't think such an election will be fair and open under these circumstances. I rather think there will be a few guys with flags and guns who will tell you what you'll have to vote. Let alone that I don't trust the official result which is most likely pre set by Moscow anyway.
Almost 60% of the voters will be ethnic Russians. Only close to 25% are ethnic Ukrainians, and around 11-12% are Islamic Tartarians.

Some of the Ukrainians (by "some" I mean this: "some") also are pro-Russian there. The Tartarians probably will mre or less all vote agaiunst Russia, and probably at least 4 in 5 Ukrainians, probably more. But of the Russians, almost all will vote pro-Russia.

So - what do you expect? ;)

volodya61

03-06-14, 12:06 PM

Do you think all Russians want to live in Russia now? with Putin, cold war, corruption, repressions and so on?

Oberon

03-06-14, 01:41 PM

Almost 60% of the voters will be ethnic Russians. Only close to 25% are ethnic Ukrainians, and around 11-12% are Islamic Tartarians.

Some of the Ukrainians (by "some" I mean this: "some") also are pro-Russian there. The Tartarians probably will mre or less all vote agaiunst Russia, and probably at least 4 in 5 Ukrainians, probably more. But of the Russians, almost all will vote pro-Russia.

So - what do you expect? ;)

Actually I'd say that more than 60% would be ethnic Russians because the others probably either won't vote or will probably be discouraged from doing so. :O:

Oberon

03-06-14, 02:19 PM

Ms Tymoshenko says: "We are building a European nation - we are doing this and nobody can stop us. We owe this to those who died and to those who are living.

we are doing this and nobody can stop us

nobody can stop us

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/05/09/article-2321858-19B1F391000005DC-819_964x707.jpg

:hmmm::hmmm::hmmm::hmmm::hmmm::hmmm:

Jimbuna

03-06-14, 02:41 PM

The EU and US have joined Ukraine's government in condemning as "illegal" a move by the Crimea region to set up a referendum to endorse joining Russia.

The EU, meeting in Brussels, threatened "serious consequences" if Russia did not act to de-escalate the crisis.

Crimean MPs earlier set a date of 16 March for a vote on the referendum.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26475508

"serious consequences"

Now where have I heard this before? :hmmm:

Mr Quatro

03-06-14, 08:05 PM

This is one crazy situation ... what I mean is both sides are taking flack from the same news sources. This is crazy I tell you :o

Washington Post article saying that "Obama's foreign policy is a fantasy"

while NBC man that knows everything there is to know about the Ukraine situation says the same thing that "Putin is living in a fantasy world"

Sorry no links, but I did personally witness those two quotes, plus did you notice Mrs Hillary Clinton this morning finally weighing in on what she thinks about the Ukrainian conflict between Russia and the Ukraine?

She has been absent in all of this till the smoke starts to clear this morning and with a new hairdo, fresh face with no wrinkles and looks like she has been losing weight makes a statement something like this:http://www.cbsnews.com/news/hillary-clinton-on-ukraine-russia-behaving-like-nazi-germany/

Hillary Clinton likened Russia's recent military action in Ukraine to Nazi Germany's territorial aggression during the 1930s on Tuesday ...

note: I guess she did this Tuesday, but I just noticed it this morning

She's running for something, uh? I hope it's not POTUS ... please don't let her win, Lord :oops:

Dan D

03-07-14, 04:48 AM

Try asking Russia if they would like to join the EU and NATO for that matter, then you'll have a better idea of the opposing opinions on each side.

Chalk and cheese for centuries....different ideals and aspirations.

If we would ask Russia about joining the EU and NATO, the present answer would be "no", obviously.

There is the Eastern expansion of the NATO as a military power and the Eastern expansion of the EU as a civilian power.

Nato expansion into former Soviet territory and Soviet sphere of influence:
Ukraine and Georgia asked to join the NATO defense alliance. Try asking Russia what they think of that. As Skybird has pointed out several times, the NATO expansion to the East troubles Russia, they „feel betrayed“ by the West, to them it raises security concerns.

They have a point there. In the 2 (Germanies) plus 4 (France, Soviet Union, UK, USA) treaty for the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany to put WW II to a fomal end („peace treaty“), the Soviet Union made it a condition for them to sign the treaty that the NATO won't expand further East than Eastern Germany.

Poland was the first country to leave the Warsaw Pact and to join the NATO short after. That is a violation of the 2 plus 4 treaty from the Russian point of view, even though Poland could rightfully say, that treaty is not binding for us, we are no contractional partner of that treaty.

The Ukraine is former Soviet territory. That leaves the question, is the 2 plus 4 treaty binding to them, as it was signed by the Soviet Union and the Ukraine was part of it.

Of course, this is first of all about military power policy and that means you simply create facts. But it is still important whether Putin is „right“ from a legal aspect on the level of international diplomacy.

The EU expansion into former Soviet territory:

Russia does not like that either. Imo, what Putin fears is what happened in the Ukraine could happen at home, Even though the EU as a civilian power „is weak in responding fast to crises with military implications it is strong in terms of influencing third countries' policies by awarding economical and political support“ http://www.historyproject.dvvinternational.org/materials/The_EU_as_a_civilian_power.ppt (http://www.historyproject.dvv-international.org/materials/The_EU_as_a_civilian_power.ppt)

Putin now uses the traditional pattern of power policy: Military power to stop both the EU and NATO from expanding into former Soviet territory.

So very likely the Ukraine won't be joining NATO and the world largest trade bloc, the EU, in the near future.

I don't think though, that the EU will change its policy with regard to expanding to the East.

Oberon

03-07-14, 03:28 PM

'Armed people' have stormed one of the military bases in Sevastopol, they control only a portion of the facility which is said to be quite large.
Reports indicate that 15 trucks 'from the Black Sea Fleet' made landfall and proceeded to the base.
Obviously whether they are Russian forces or 'pro-Crimea militia' depends on who you talk to, however it would seem that groundwork is being laid to remove all traces of the Ukrainian military from Crimea ahead of the 'referendum' next week.

Updates, as always, on this excellent reddit feed:
http://www.reddit.com/live/3rgnbke2rai6hen7ciytwcxadi?t=t

Jimbuna

03-07-14, 03:39 PM

Well Putin said today he didn't want a return to the cold war days but I can see that happening if the Crimea ends up in Russian hands.

Oberon

03-07-14, 04:26 PM

Well Putin said today he didn't want a return to the cold war days but I can see that happening if the Crimea ends up in Russian hands.

The word on the ground seems to be that this was going to be a well executed and fairly bloodless Russian assault, the Russians were discussing terms of surrender with the Ukrainians when the Crimean militia got involved and starting beating everyone nearby up, screwing up the Russians plans, so we're back to a stand-off.

Hopefully someone in the GRU or whatever it's called now will have a little chat with the Crimean militia leadership and smack them back into line.

EDIT: It seems the Russians have given up and RTB'd. There's also reports of Serbs mixing with the 'ethnic Russians' manning checkpoints in the Crimea.

Oberon

03-07-14, 06:43 PM

The USS Truxtun, an Arleigh Burke class, is the US vessel which has entered the Black Sea, apparently for 'regular' scheduled exercises with Romania and Bulgaria.

Ducimus

03-07-14, 07:42 PM

I'm going to assume this is the official Ukraine thread.

I just got done reading this, thought it a decent write up, and figured i'd pass it along to anyone whos interested.

(Vice.com) Why Putin Will Get Everything He Wants in Crimea (https://news.vice.com/articles/why-putin-will-get-everything-he-wants-in-crimea)

Middle paragraph I thought was telling:
When it comes down to it, the few diplomatic carrots that the West is willing offer or withhold from Russia have only as much value as Putin is willing to assign them. His ability to not give a **** exceeds the West's capacity to do anything he gives a **** about. The fact is that Russia cares a lot more about Crimea than anybody else does — except for Ukraine.

Last paragraph of said article:
The reality is that Crimea is all but a done deal. Putin saw something he wanted and an opportunity to take it. So he sent in troops and set about establishing that new reality on the ground. The bulk of negotiations in the coming days and weeks will involve Western officials trying to prove that Russia hasn’t gotten the better of them — the “compromise” reached will be almost exactly what Putin wanted all along, in the guise of a diplomatic victory preventing an armed conflict — so they can try to preserve Western credibility. They know they'll need it for the next crisis that comes along.

mapuc

03-07-14, 07:43 PM

The USS Truxtun, an Arleigh Burke class, is the US vessel which has entered the Black Sea, apparently for 'regular' scheduled exercises with Romania and Bulgaria.

When the news about this American warship came. It was breaking news in Denmark. "The crisis has escalated. America is sending a warship to the Black sea"

Hey they are sending ONE warship, do you really.....Hey maybe the American have the same attitude as the Swedes has(you know, if the Russian send their baltic fleet, the Swedes send 1 FFG to stop them.)

And here we have the reason to why they send this warship to the Black sea. Exercise

Markus

BossMark

03-08-14, 03:04 AM

http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee374/rothwellwhite1/11648_zps8bc23234.jpg

Jimbuna

03-08-14, 05:32 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26492053

Russia's Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has warned the US not to take "hasty and reckless steps" in response to the crisis in Ukraine's Crimea region.

In a phone call with his US counterpart John Kerry, Mr Lavrov said imposing sanctions on Moscow would harm the US.

Russia's parliament has promised to support Crimea if it chooses to become part of Russia.

Mr Lavrov said imposing sanctions on Russia in response to its involvement in Ukraine "will inevitably have a boomerang effect against the US itself".

Putins spokesman, Dmitry Peskov said...

Calls for talks between Russia and Ukraine mediated by the West "make us smile", he said.

I guess this mess will eventually be left to the UN to sort out....veto upon veto ad nauseam.

Skybird

03-08-14, 06:13 AM

"Calls for talks between Russia and Ukraine mediated by the West "make us smile", he said."

:arrgh!: That will backfire badly against those Russians. They obviously do not know how strong and how tough, how terribly important and how fearsome Europe is. Let them have a taste of their own medicine, then! Let's seize the Murmansk peninsula!

Thank God we are so awesomely clever! Yesterday I read a German article comparing the crisis now with the plot in Tom Clancy's last book, "Command Authority" (which i do not know myself). Seems some politicians in the West should have read it, since it has somewhat forseen this Crimea thing. :haha:

Joloc

03-08-14, 07:39 AM

Anti-semitic attacks have been on the rise in Crimea in recent days.
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.577356

Tatar houses have been marked by 'X'es, just like right before the 50s genocide.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2014/03/who-will-protect-the-crimean-tatars.html

Ukrainian-owned properties robbed
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26492053

Menawhile Russia is carrying on decieving the Crimean population, stirring ethnic hatred.
http://imgur.com/gallery/Cb2x6Yx

Oberon

03-08-14, 03:54 PM

Two rallies planned in Kharkov tomorrow, pro and anti, both at the same time and only about 500 meters seperating them.

Not going to be a pretty day...

Skybird

03-08-14, 05:38 PM

Two rallies planned in Kharkov tomorrow, pro and anti, both at the same time and only about 500 meters seperating them.

Not going to be a pretty day...
While the referendum will be a tricky day. Pro-Ukraine activists say the referendum text has two options only: to become part of Russia, or to become independent and neutral. No option to stay with the Ukraine. How they know that, remains their secret, but I would not be surprised if the forms indeed are offering these two choices only. Before you call foul, its a trick used in Western politics as well, btw, although they do not always get away with it.

Even Western diplomats seem to have realised now that the ball is over and the Russians will not allow Ukrainian bands to play again, no matter what. Several thousand European companies have made serious in vestments in Russia who all are at risk and are a tool for the Russians to retaliate against Europe. 30% of gas intio Europe is delivered by Russia. Russia is the third biggest holder of American dollars and bonds. When they start selling US bonds on a large scale...

What we will hear from Western politicians in the next days - is already the epilogue. The Russians have what they wanted, and they will get away with it, except if the Ukraine drops into a really suicidal mood and starts the firing. Then it will get a really bloody nose.

The Russians have started to mine and booby-trap land passages between Ukraine and Crimea.

Oberon

03-08-14, 05:58 PM

Oh aye, it's all over bar the shouting now really, Crimea will go to Russia one way or the other, and what happens to East Ukraine depends on what transpires in the coming weeks.
The aftermath is going to cause a lot of navel gazing for the west, amidst a rude awakening for those who were hoping that the cold war mentality was either dead or could be kept sleeping, but nope that cat is out of the bag and I expect our military forces in Europe to be readjusted over the coming years to reflect this, just as we'd gotten the whole setup accustomed to fighting a desert war, we need to switch it all back for the possibility of a European one.
Talk about irony. :haha:

mapuc

03-08-14, 06:06 PM

In about one to two months, a diplomatic solution have been made that all parties can agree on and we will look back and say we had a moderate to severe crisis.

Or ...

The crisis has become so immersed that we sit and really anxious about tomorrow and wonder if it exists

Markus

Skybird

03-08-14, 06:10 PM

Two months...? :D Diplomatic solution...? :D Hardly that long. No diplomacy is needed when facts have been created already and the other side is too weak and too undetermined to seriously start a conflict over it.

Oberon

03-08-14, 06:23 PM

Indeed, what will happen is exactly what happened over Georgia. There will be a lot of heated words, a lot of talk of sanctions and 'severe consequences', there will be military exercises, deployments of troops here and there...but ultimately Crimea will become as South Ossetia.
The interesting thing will come in the fallout from this, a more hawkish general tone towards Russia, a determined effort to remove European reliance on Russian energy imports, military reorganisation, especially in the Eastern European states, I can foresee increased military budgets in places like Poland in the coming months, so a boom time for the likes of BAe and Lockheed Martin. The old Star Wars system might even make a come back if things get dire enough, and I can foresee NATO membership increasing.
The next question mark hangs over Belarus, at the moment it's not pro-Europe (since it's mostly shunned by the EU) but not particularly pro-Russia either, and it has a leader who is not exactly a pinnacle of democracy (but who is? :haha:). So we could see another uprising there in the next few years, and Russia will also move on that 'to protect ethnic Russians'.

Alex

03-08-14, 06:31 PM

Anyone knows a certain guy called Alex Jones ? :hmm2:

http://youtu.be/VDYBvX2SDOo

Not bad.

Oberon

03-08-14, 07:32 PM

Anyone knows a certain guy called Alex Jones ? :hmm2:

http://youtu.be/VDYBvX2SDOo

Not bad.

Bubblehead1980? Yeah, he hasn't posted in a while...

Tribesman

03-08-14, 07:43 PM

Anyone knows a certain guy called Alex Jones ?
Isn't he that crazy fat idiot who believes in the rothchilds running a new world order as part of the age old global jewish conspiracy as set out in the protocols of the elders of zion?:hmmm:

Not bad.

Yes not bad, if you believe in such nonsense.
So Alex would you be one of those people who believe?

Joloc

03-08-14, 10:13 PM

There is a difference between South Ossetia and Crimea. Russia did not directly claim South Ossetia as they are doing now with Crimea. Georgian military was considerably smaller than Ukrainian military. And, most importantly in the long run Georgia never had nukes, and therefore there was not Budapest Memorandum for Russia to violate.

Violation of Budapest Memorandum will have its own consequences: as now the only country ever to have voluntarily disarmed then got invaded in consequence. This sets a bad historic precedent. Iran is now not going to cancel its nuclear program citing Ukraine as an example.

Ukraine will now resurrect its program as UK/US were unable to protect it, and given the nature of the nuclear power plants currently in operation (production of enriched uranium was their primary design goal) there is a good likelihood of having an India/Pakistan thing going on in Europe in a year or two. Except with two orders of magnitude more firepower.

Other countries that have not had nuclear weapons before because they were not thought to be necessary will now be thinking again.

Jimbuna

03-09-14, 06:39 AM

Well I sincerely hope your comments on nuclear proliferation are wrong.

Skybird

03-09-14, 06:46 AM

Violation of Budapest Memorandum will have its own consequences: as now the only country ever to have voluntarily disarmed then got invaded in consequence. This sets a bad historic precedent. Iran is now not going to cancel its nuclear program citing Ukraine as an example.
One could list Libya as well. Gaffy's son had talked his father into giving up the nuclear program, the components were flown out by the Americans. Later, British and French fighters started operations in the Libyan civil war.

You are right there, there is no incentive to not have nuclear weapons, but a lessons to be learned why nations will want them. Brazil very likely has them. Egypt, Turkey, Saudi arabia are the next candidates on my list getting them due to Obama's foreign political blackout that now lasts since 6 years. Bush was incompetent in foreign politics as well, and it leds to stupid wars fought in a stupid manner. Obama fails as well and as completely, while not causing wars. But I wonder whom of the two history will judge to have done the bigger damage by their ways. The strategic costs they are responsible for, are extreme.

Tribesman

03-09-14, 07:37 AM

Well I sincerely hope your comments on nuclear proliferation are wrong.
He does make a very good point.
Iraq showed the price of not having WMDs, Ukraine shows the price of getting rid of WMDs in exchange for worthless guarantees.

XabbaRus

03-09-14, 08:50 AM

Anyone knows a certain guy called Alex Jones ? :hmm2:

http://youtu.be/VDYBvX2SDOo

Not bad.

He's an idiot. I saw him on UK tv and sometimes I feel they set people like him up for a fall but he did it himself. I wouldn't take anything he says seriously. A great example of an empty can rattles the most. Obnoxious small male member. An embarrassment to Americans I know.

Alex

03-09-14, 07:30 PM

Since the fact that one doesn't speak about zionism doesn't mean what he says is uninteresting, I've been checking out for myself some videos featuring this man.
Apparently, from what I've seen today Mr Jones denounces the FED's fraud since years, pedophile networks - in which you can find some politics, as well as the pharmaceutical lobby, the RFID chip, illegitimate wars in the Middle East :hmm2:, etc.

Yet I was thinking I'd end up getting a reply such as your own, Xab - and I take your word on this man. But well, personally I'm not going to criticize a guy having doubts and looking presumably honest at first sight :) - especially since he's always there at Bilderberg meetings with some megaphone :haha:. A deep-rooted enthusiast, most probably.

/off-topic

Skybird

03-09-14, 07:53 PM

A quote from German TV, what Putin once has said, they say.

"You cannot be sovereign (in the meaning of superior, competent) when you are weak."

That is sober, unsentimental realism. If you think about it, it is true for individuals, as well as nations and organizations. Even for the EU. :lol:

Reminds me of what I say myself: "You cannot be tolerant where you are weak. Tolerance you can only practice when you are the superior and the other is inferior. The weaker one is not tolerant, but appeasing, and not because he wants, but because he must."

EU, knock-knock - somebody at home? Some good advise one better should have listend to.

TarJak

03-10-14, 01:56 AM

Jimbuna

03-10-14, 05:48 AM

All there is left to do now is wait and see what the next developments are after Crimea is taken away.

TarJak

03-10-14, 07:46 AM

Probably much the same as happened after South Ossetia. Bugger all.

Ducimus

03-10-14, 07:58 AM

Schroeder

03-10-14, 03:45 PM

Oberon

03-10-14, 03:59 PM

If they stopped then everyone would be

"WHY AREN@T WE DOING SOMETHING TO SPTP PUTIN!!!!111oneoneone"

Every Eastern European NATO member would be in uproar because NATO isn't doing anything, and since NATO can't do much anyway, it just has to shuffle units around to make it look like it is.

XabbaRus

03-10-14, 04:09 PM

Footage of Russian soldiers firing on a Ukrainian aircraft has emerged today: http://mobile.news.com.au/world/video-footage-of-russia-firing-shots-at-ukraine-plane-emerges-after-ukraine-addresses-kiev-as-prorussia-supporters-turn-out-in-crimea/story-fndir2ev-1226849808243

The knocking is getting louder...
Just watched it. That plane was being lased. Not pleasant but quite a but different from shots fired. I don't like whatever game Putin is up to but I don't trust the current Ukrainian govt mob either. I do have suspicions about how quickly all the protests were organised starting back last year after the U-turn by Yanukovich. The whole thing stinks on both sides.

Skybird

03-10-14, 04:11 PM

Nato is now sending AWACS to Poland and Romania...very effective....

Why don't they just stop doing this senseless crap? It just costs tax payer money and won't do anything.
http://www.dw.de/eu-prepares-russia-sanctions-nato-sends-planes-to-monitor-ukraine/a-17486571
They do not do it so much because of the Russian attack on Europe that will be unleashed soon :D , but because of the Poles and the people in the three Baltic states. As we have seen in past debates in this forum, years ago, some people there still are a bit hypersensitive about the Russians coming back and the Fourth Reich marching into Warsaw again. The E-3s are so big birds in the news that they cannot be overlooked and thus will give them back some calmness, hopefully.

TarJak

03-10-14, 04:13 PM

No doubt both sides will try to make mud stick on their opponents.

Jimbuna

03-10-14, 04:17 PM

Same old...wash, rinse then wash and rinse again.

Political chess.

Skybird

03-10-14, 04:20 PM

I don't trust the current Ukrainian govt mob either. I do have suspicions about how quickly all the protests were organised starting back last year after the U-turn by Yanukovich. The whole thing stinks on both sides.

OH YES. :yep: The stink is so intense that it even can be seen in the air like a layer of grey haze, that much it stinks, no matter what direction the wind is blowing from.

I said it earlier, and I stick to it: the West sooner or later will need to correct its position towards the gang in Kiew like it had to correct its initial propaganda assessment on the Georgian government, and Shaakashvili. It was correct to not get engaged then, and it is correct to not get engaged now.

Alex

03-10-14, 04:22 PM

http://b8.eu.icdn.ru/c/compdrag/7/36528577kan.gif

Flamebatter90

03-11-14, 05:14 AM

Just watched it. That plane was being lased. Not pleasant but quite a but different from shots fired. I don't like whatever game Putin is up to but I don't trust the current Ukrainian govt mob either. I do have suspicions about how quickly all the protests were organised starting back last year after the U-turn by Yanukovich. The whole thing stinks on both sides.

The video on that site is not the full one. The following videos shows the allegeted shooting (00:45):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPRT1e0nPIU

Jimbuna

03-11-14, 06:47 AM

looks like there won't be any meaningful dialogue between the US and Russia if the Sunday referendum goes ahead.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26524056

antikristuseke

03-11-14, 07:57 AM

They do not do it so much because of the Russian attack on Europe that will be unleashed soon :D , but because of the Poles and the people in the three Baltic states. As we have seen in past debates in this forum, years ago, some people there still are a bit hypersensitive about the Russians coming back and the Fourth Reich marching into Warsaw again. The E-3s are so big birds in the news that they cannot be overlooked and thus will give them back some calmness, hopefully.

Because Russia in its various form has a great track record of not invading neighbouring countries, they just go around liberating em.
In international politics small nations tend to be traded willy-nilly by supposed allies, has happened before and will probably happen again, just hopefully not within my lifetime.

Skybird

03-11-14, 08:17 AM

Janukovich's ex-villa.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/janukowitschs-villa-360-grad-bilder-aus-dem-schlafzimmer-a-957801.html

It's interactive.

Yes I know he was a gangster, and it is wealth stolen, that's not what I put into question. Not at all.

But take it for itself. It is beautiful. Glamour and gaudiness, but still: beautifull, a piece of art, and nice colours.

Think of how many pieces of art have been financed in Western culture by blood money, stolen treasure, corrupted leaders and elites. From castles to chapels and chruches, from paintings to sculptures - wealth did not differ between criminal and legally obtained money when financing such things. There would have been no Italian rennaissance and the rich treasure of paintings and art artifacts - without the corruption of the Medici. History holds some very grim irony, doesn'T it.

I have seen pics and films of palaces with more gold and jewelry, and less taste. The wood makes the difference, I think.

Betonov

03-11-14, 09:32 AM

The video on that site is not the full one. The following videos shows the allegeted shooting (00:45):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPRT1e0nPIU

The green light at 0:25 looks like a laser range finder or simple binoculars with a laser pointer. :hmmm:

Tribesman

03-11-14, 12:24 PM

There would have been no Italian rennaissance and the rich treasure of paintings and art artifacts - without the corruption of the Medici. History holds some very grim irony, doesn'T it.

The real irony being that the Florentine regime is one you hold up as an example of your dream utopia, despite it being a prime example of all the bad political trade and social problems you claim it would magically fix.:yep:

Catfish

03-11-14, 03:29 PM

You will not hear this in the phased-in media:

http://www.cashkurs.com/kategorie/cashkurs-tv/beitrag/tagesausblick-ukraine-was-steckt-wirklich-hinter-den-unruhen/

Gets interesting around 3:30.

XabbaRus

03-11-14, 03:38 PM

The video on that site is not the full one. The following videos shows the allegeted shooting (00:45):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPRT1e0nPIU

Could be shots or could quite easily have been reflections off a scope. IIRC one report of that video narrated that was Russian troops on the other side of the border digging in. Would be rather stupid of them to shoot over the border. Either way inconclusive.

Catfish

03-12-14, 11:46 AM

It slowly leaks out what it is all about, in the Ukraine.
Unfortunately the 'west' (whatever you call it now, when the EU is being led around by a ring in its nose), it makes a lot of sense, and it is not about humanity, or the 'evil russians'.
It is about the harbours Sevastopol and Tatus and how the west tried to capture them, it is about a new stock exchange in St. Petersburg, where oil and gas are now being traded in Rubel, and Yueang. It is about breaking a monopoly.
Whoever has tried to trade this in anything else than Dollars, ran into ... problems :hmm2:

Oberon

03-12-14, 12:15 PM

http://i.imgur.com/Q0PeFI4.png

Catfish

03-12-14, 12:25 PM

Nice try :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdrBMRSFqOg&feature=youtu.be

International politics is not about democracy or human rights. Nations have interests, not friendship. It is all about interests of nations. Keep that in mind, regardless what they tell you in history lessons..

Oberon

03-12-14, 12:32 PM

:hmmm: :doh:

mapuc

03-12-14, 02:43 PM

I truly hope they will find some kind of a diplomatically solution to this problem

I do not dare to think what could be next if the negotiation break down.

Yesterday I reporter said on Danish tv. A diplomatical solution seems more and more remote.

Markus

Jimbuna

03-12-14, 02:56 PM

Tribesman

03-12-14, 03:34 PM

Not much use for those who don't speak or understand German...myself included.
Well if its any help. He's a 9/11 troofer, a holocaust denier and a new world order global conspiracy nut.:hmmm:

Jimbuna

03-12-14, 03:38 PM

Then I consider myself reprieved.

Catfish

03-12-14, 03:47 PM

Hello,
^ Jim Buna yes i know - but i did not find ONE video or article in the whole english-spoken internet, which explains it this way - sorry. If i find anything like it i will post it here.

The 'quintessence' is, that "the west" tries to get more influence and position itself even closer to Russia, as it already is - militarily and economically (with the installation of a missile shield along Poland - certainly against syrian missiles, or was it from Iran lmao), and some not-so-nice capitalist chess moves, against a now competing capitalist Russia.

It is all about oil and gas once more with the US Noble [sic] company competing against two russian companies, while trying to get access, or even possession, of the russian major harbours for the export of said resources, Sevastopol, and Tartus - by all means. Russia's president is not a real democrat of course, but then (thinking of drones, or of Merkel's disinterest in being eavessdropped by the NSA), who is - and Putin is protecting Russia's economical interests in this region just like the US does and did (worldwide).

But the "worst" is that there now is a stock exchange in St. Petersburg, where the literal "petro dollar" is maybe becoming obsolete - right there oil and gas is now being sold for russian Rubel and chinese Yueang currency.

This is a major breach - the oil being only sold in US dollars worldwide since decades is the one (and only) mainstay for this currency's value. Whoever tried to sell or deal with hydrocarbons in other-than US currency, had to feel the wrath of the US.

Libya tried it, Iraq tried, Iran tried it but not for long, Venzuela tries it now and then - all those nations have become a place for "insurgents" or just "rogue states", declared by the mainstream media, then soon being followed by political speeches, 'analysts', propaganda, sanctions. And then, sometimes, war.

Now while it is easy to have sanctions or even wage a war against those smaller nations, it is not so easy against Russia.. but the US sure does not like that. Due to overarming and spending trillions in "defence", with the petro dollar being ignored its currency is at stake.

And no, i do not think Putin is a nice guy or a dependable 'president', but the methods of nations look very much alike, when it comes to interests, resources and money.

It sure is much more complex, but i will not go into skybirdian depths .. even if i sometimes admire it :03:

Thanks and greetings,
Catfish

P.S: regarding Tribesman's post #579, i just read it after posting this :dead:

mapuc

03-12-14, 03:54 PM

^If I understand this right, then the oil company in USA isn't afraid of setting the world i flame because some other countries has gone from Dollars to an another currency when buying and selling oil.

or have I missed the context of your post?

Markus

Aktungbby

03-12-14, 03:58 PM

Well if its any help. He's a 9/11 troofer, a holocaust denier and a new world order global conspiracy nut.:hmmm:

A little help in English from the WSJ: Niccolò Machiavelli, the father of realpolitik, has sent a message from beyond the grave to Russian President Vladimir Putin (http://topics.wsj.com/person/P/Vladimir-Putin/6409) following his grab of Crimea. Through divine inspiration and the services of an elite medium, your correspondent has obtained the document, reprinted below.
Esteemed Mr. President:
For the last 500 years, I have been observing earthly power politics. As an admirer of Richelieu, Palmerston and Kissinger, I want to congratulate you. You are one of my best students, and you outwitted Barack Obama (http://topics.wsj.com/person/O/Barack-Obama/4328?lc=int_mb_1001), Angela Merkel (http://topics.wsj.com/person/M/angela-merkel/5351?lc=int_mb_1001) and this Frenchman with the Dutch name. With the Second Crimean War, you also outdid Joseph Stalin and Nikita Khrushchev. Stalin was actually a timid man, who didn't go beyond what his World War II armies had occupied. Khrushchev was a wild-eyed adventurist who almost unleashed World War III over Cuba.
Yet you, Mr. President, have been both ruthless and prudent—just what I prescribed in "The Prince." You Russians have distilled my wisdom into a pithy phrase: Kto kovo—who dominates whom? And you have beautifully executed my central idea. I never preached violence to the max, but the "economy of force"—how to get more with less. The Crimean caper was a masterpiece of smart power politics.
You did everything right. You grabbed an opportunity when you saw it. First, you calculated the "correlation of forces," to use a Soviet term, and realized that it was vastly in your favor. Who would fight you? A Ukrainian leadership in chaos? A flimsy Ukrainian army? The EU that could not even bomb Libya without the U.S. Air Force? Barack Obama's America?
Then, you assessed political geography correctly. The rule is never to take on a superior enemy like the West on his own turf. You test his mettle on his periphery. The EU is an imposing economic power, but it lacks the will and the wherewithal to project its might. The U.S. has assets galore but no longer the will to act as world power. So you could shrug them off.
Next, you factor in geography proper. Globally, the West is far superior to Russia, but regionally, you were the Man. You had the "interior lines," as the great Prussian strategist Carl von Clausewitz put it; the West was a thousand miles away. And your troops were already in place in Crimea—tanks, planes and all.
Now to the balance of interests, a more subtle concept. The EU has been contesting you over Ukraine, but more as a confused afterthought. Your country had more compelling fish to fry: Ukraine as former Russian heartland plus an ethnic majority in Crimea, a strategic gem that Khrushchev had absentmindedly given away to Ukraine 60 years ago.
So you also held the psychological advantage that comes with having more skin in the game. Khrushchev blithely ignored the balance of interests in the Caribbean. Otherwise he would not have moved his missiles into Cuba in 1962, 90 miles off the U.S. coast. Sixty percent ethnic Russians in Crimea, dare I say, also added a whiff of legitimacy. Doesn't the West always sermonize about the "responsibility to protect?" Didn't it go to war for the Kosovars?
Best of all, you are a true Machiavellian when it comes to the economy of violence. Just enough, never too much, and with minimal risks. So you didn't grab eastern Ukraine, which might have really riled the West and triggered a costly insurgency. You merely harvested the low-hanging fruit of Crimea, and with a fabulous profit.
In Kiev, the "educative" impact will be enormous. Whoever gains power there will sing the theme of "democracy" and "EU affiliation" sotto voce. Here, my pupil, beckons the biggest payoff. You need not fear the democratic contagion of the Maidan spilling over into your own country. Not for a long time.
What a boost to your "street cred" in the rivalry of nations! With a small investment, you have amassed what Mr. Obama no longer has and what the Europeans lost long ago: a reputation for ruthlessness and the readiness to use force.
Power is when you don't have to wield it—when you don't have to threaten, let alone execute, to get your way. Watch respect for Russia grow in Poland and the Baltics. And don't worry about the fallout. You grabbed Abkhazia and South Ossetia with a little blitzkrieg in 2008. Today, nobody talks about Georgia any more.
Why does the "economy of violence" generate even richer profits now than in my Florentine days? We live in a split world. In Asia and Africa, mayhem is as present or possible as ever. Call this the "Damascus-Pyongyang Belt." Yet in the "Berlin-Berkeley Belt," force as a tool of statecraft has virtually disappeared.
Given the West's dismal record in Afghanistan and Iraq, even the supposed "last remaining superpower"—the U.S.—is now loath to resort to the ultima ratio. And that offers you wondrous opportunities. When the supply of force contracts, even a little bit goes a long way, as you have proved in Crimea. When American power recedes, you can forge ahead with little risk—as you already did in Syria.
In the West, Chancellor Merkel has pooh-poohed you as somebody who "lives in another world." Yes, you do live in the 19th century—in a world of zero-sum games where your rivals' loss is your reward, where power is possession, and where kto kovo trumps mutual gain. The West lives in the 21st century, where welfare trumps warfare and rules trump reason of state.
This is why you won so handily in Crimea. There is just one problem, Mr. President. A nation's true greatness comes from responsibility. You have just reaffirmed a historic Russian habit: You would rather be the great spoiler and outsider. It is self-isolation, but not at all splendid. Good luck, Vladimir.
Yours truly,
Niccolo Machiavelli

Mr. Joffe is editor of Die Zeit in Hamburg and a fellow of the Freeman-Spogli Institute and the Hoover Institution, both at Stanford University. His latest book is "The Myth of America's Decline" (Liveright, 2013).

Jimbuna

03-12-14, 03:58 PM

@Catfish

Many thanks for a well put and adequately detailed explanation :salute:

Skybird

03-12-14, 03:59 PM

@ catfish

about Dirk Müllers video - why am I not surprised? Good find.

Regarding Ken Jebsen , I would be extremely careful with this guy. His reputation is extremely dubious, and his antisemtic stand and holocaust-denial is well documented. I also remind of his pitiful collision with Henryk Broder.

Catfish

03-12-14, 04:51 PM

Ok regarding Ken Jebsen i did not know this and we should be careful, however:

http://juergenelsaesser.wordpress.com/2012/03/16/broder-contra-ken-jebsen-politisch-korrekte-zensur/

He sure is no holocaust denier, it just seems the phased-in media began to be a bit reluctant towards someone who dared to criticize his lords and masters - thevery financiers of the news company who employed Mr. Jebsen. You do not bite the hand that feeds you, without consequences.
Political correctness should not mean the end of freedom of opinion ?
Mr. Broder is just as polemic as is/was Jebsen, just in another direction..

@Skybird: See pm

It is another angle of view, and it fits in a lot of places. D. Mueller expresses basically the same.

Catfish

03-12-14, 05:14 PM

Skybird

03-12-14, 05:25 PM

And the former US ambassador to Germany, John Kornblum, on German TV some weeks ago: "States have no friendships. States have interests". And later: "We are no friends (he meant the US and Germany). We are partners." He implied that partnerships only last temporarily, for as long as the shared interest that triggered the partnership lasts.

Hang every political leader and career politicians and tribal chieftains and every religious leader at the next tree, and you will see the number of massacres and wars and regional exesses declining dramatically in the following years.

mapuc

03-12-14, 05:38 PM

Skybird

03-12-14, 05:58 PM

@Mapuc

You do not think nations are shy when it comes to vital interests ?
This is the problem, with the idea of "nations".

If we had a world-wide government without nations, there still would be some kind of war, then maybe between companies, backed up with military supporting this or that side, with "civilian" (but not civilized) warlords. I am not sure whether this is a better idea, with people being as they are.

If there is one thing that Reagan said right it was "People do not fight wars. Governments do."

I might add "... governments and organisations"
A world government would be one big monopolist, the biggest one in human history.

A most terrifying perspective.

We already have the hidden elite of unknown, rich and highly influential names behind the stage of everyday politics, who never appear and act themselves, but let political mechanisms and the names of their choice carry out there wishes and desires. In a way, I fear, we already have a world government. And an utmost corrupt one, that uses the world as its chessboard and for whom presidents and generals and industrial moguls are pawns only - and ordinary people nothing.

Tribesman

03-12-14, 08:23 PM

A world government would be one big monopolist, the biggest one in human history.

A most terrifying perspective.

Ironic really, as your latest dream ideology requires a government that would dwarf any government which has ever existed:yep:

Catfish Ok regarding Ken Jebsen i did not know this and we should be careful, however:

http://juergenelsaesser.wordpress.co...rrekte-zensur/ (http://juergenelsaesser.wordpress.com/2012/03/16/broder-contra-ken-jebsen-politisch-korrekte-zensur/)

He sure is no holocaust denier, it just seems the phased-in media began to be a bit reluctant towards someone who dared to criticize his lords and masters - thevery financiers of the news company who employed Mr. Jebsen. You do not bite the hand that feeds you, without consequences.
Political correctness should not mean the end of freedom of opinion ?
Mr. Broder is just as polemic as is/was Jebsen, just in another direction..

Linking to his friends blog does not make a good case.
Oh and wrong book BTW:03:.
Look at it another way.
Jebsen claims his rants about the global conspiracy are not anti semitic, despite ranting about a Zionist conspiracy and a holocaust industry.
Some people nowadays are doing the quenelle and claiming it is not anti semitic its just anti the "established world order", Yet the gestures "creators" rants about the "established world order" are hate filled bile straight along the lines of the protocols of the elders of zion.

Always check your sources as you might just be Crystillizing Public Opinion in a manner which you don't intend.
And when a couple of people immediately recognise your source as dubious maybe its not too wise to try and support that source and insteadtry to find a decent one.

Put it this way, Alex Jones could do a good rant about the tobacco industry, he might make some very good points, you wouldn't want to link to him though as he is an absolute fruitcake so you find someone else making the points who isn't a frothing at the mouth conspiracy nut.

Alex

03-13-14, 05:46 AM

In a way, I fear, we already have a world government. And an utmost corrupt one, that uses the world as its chessboard and for whom presidents and generals and industrial moguls are pawns only - and ordinary people nothing.
Ah !

Finally.
Well you're a bit late, Sky, but you've just got to express your opinion in a way I wouldn't have been able to, due to the fact this kind of opinion is hard to let go in the appropriate way so to be understood properly. But finally you get to see the world in an open-minded way.
You're now an official conspiracy theory colleague according to the western media. Welcome Sir.

And who's at the top of that big globalist utopia ? Shhhh, of course you can find about that if you pay attention to the news.
But one must shut up for now - better for a few of us in here who would go off on some long rant related to antitermitism and things like that. It's all still not obvious enough.

Yet the gestures "creators" rants about the "established world order" are hate filled bile straight along the lines of the protocols of the elders of zion.
Tribesmanovich speaking. :O:

Tribesman

03-13-14, 06:08 AM

Ah !

Tribesmanovich speaking. :O:
And the response coming from a known neo Nazi who regularly gets infractions for posting his hate filled anti jewish nonsense about global conspiracies:haha:

Oberon

03-13-14, 06:30 AM

One cannot help but think we're getting a little bit off-topic here... :hmmm:

In other news:

Residents of Belgorod Oblast are publishing Twitter and Facebook photos of trains with armored vehicles arriving to the village of Vesolaya Lopan', approximately 30km from the border with Ukraine. "Just yesterday unloading of machines has begun. Local TV explains that "Airborne forces are are arriving to practice cooperation with troops stationed in the region" -- reports editor of "Echo of Moscow" Vladimir Varfolomeyev.

The Pentagon plans to keep an aircraft carrier in the Mediterranean longer than planned as a military presence to reassure NATO allies following Russia’s intervention in Crimea, CNN has learned. The Obama administration is expected to announce the development involving the USS George H. W. Bush on Thursday. Although the administration is focusing on diplomacy to resolve the Ukraine crisis, the military part of the equation was discussed in depth at a White House meeting on Tuesday, a military official said.

According to the Web site of the Atlantic Council, Dempsey said that "he's been talking to his military counterparts in Russia, but he's also sending a clear message to Ukraine and members of NATO that the U.S. military will respond militarily if necessary."
"We're trying to tell [Russia] not to escalate this thing further into Eastern Ukraine, and allow the conditions to be set for some kind of resolution in Crimea. We do have treaty obligations with our NATO allies. And I have assured them that if that treaty obligation is triggered [in Europe], we would respond," Dempsey said.

Tribesman

03-13-14, 06:44 AM

One cannot help but think we're getting a little bit off-topic here... :hmmm:

In other news:
When its a global jewish conspiracy which obviously runs everything then nothing is ever off topic.:03:

Then again one of the resident neo Nazis has claimed that the Subsim
forum itself is part of a global jewish conspiracy. :hmmm:
See it gets everywhere this global conspiracy:rotfl2:

Skybird

03-13-14, 10:23 AM

Ah !

Finally.
Well you're a bit late, Sky, but you've just got to express your opinion in a way I wouldn't have been able to, due to the fact this kind of opinion is ****ing hard to let go in the appropriate way so to be understood properly. But finally you get to see the world in an open-minded way.
You're now an official conspiracy theory colleague according to the western media. Welcome Sir.
Actually, I think like that since a long time. It's no conspiration theory, and no belief in the Illuminati. But the observation that the claimed "facts" of reality most people obediently believe in, do not fit well together and do not form the picture that is being sold as "the real state of the world". It's like pressing together pieces of a puzzle that do not match at all. Needless to say that the resulting image is broken, then.

I hate monopolies. The state is the biggest and most destructive monopolist there is. But it is not the last instance of monopolism. There is an even deeper level of monopolism behind it. I assume you can only bring it into full sight by derstroyoing all masks and isntances it hides behiond and that it uses to formulate and express its wills and desires, that way stripping it of any indirect tools and options of influencing the world, and thus must either seize to exist - or become the visible actor itself, then being seen by anyone who opens his eyes and wants to see.

It's a bit like the Mafia state of mind, that article I linked to two weeks ago or so. To think its just a group of people, is way too simplistic. It's more like interests obsessing the body and mind of people in the hidden who then serve as tools to take care of them. And many of them may not even know.

And who's at the top of that big globalist utopia ? Shhhh, of course you can find about that if you pay attention to the news.Hardly. If you beleive that, then you are like a man using a flashlight to see whether it already is dark or not.

Catfish,

I just want to remind of that the case of Jebsen is not about his alleged or real holocaust-denial only, but that he has expressed questionable pieces before. Refering to this b y mem ory only, the Islamic terrorism he has relativised by claiming that Al Quaeda's terror is not so much terror per se, but is a "gefühlter Terror" (=felt terror) only, a formulation that in German expresses a derogatory attitude of wanting to marginalise something by implying that the subject of such a statement is not objectively perceived in its quality, but subjectively interpreted and distorted. As if mass murder, torture, murder and what else you can link to Al quaeda is an issue of subjectively perceiving it as that only. He also has once claimed that the claim that Al Quaeda carried out the plane hijack and the assault on the twin towers, were just a "conspiration theory".

The Jacob Jung you brought up, to me also is somebody leaving split impressions, I have not read much by him, but my impression that I remember is that while some of his thoughts were really good, others were, frankly said, quite crude. Handle him with care, I'd say.

03-13-14, 12:07 PM

One cannot help but think we're getting a little bit off-topic here... :hmmm:

Too much into the topic , riot squad needed here:haha:

Jimbuna

03-13-14, 12:16 PM

http://imgcash3.imageshack.us/img233/1673/adminwatch2af0.gif

Aktungbby

03-13-14, 12:55 PM

Frankly I don't see a crises here with regard to the Crimea; Putin is correcting Khrushchev's misplaced generosity of the 50's and it will, in the end, cost him more political capital than he has, to do it. But in fact Crimea was always Russian since the 1700's. Anything for a warm-water port (Sebastapol)! America should look to some of its own shenanigans and at least give back Hawaii, a sovereign foreign power with embassies worldwide, to the rightful head of state if it wants to set a proper example. Even President Clinton,1993, issued a Resolution of Apology for that fiasco; But once again, anything for a warm water port (Pearl Harbor)... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/99/Liliuokalani_of_Hawaii.jpg/100px-Liliuokalani_of_Hawaii.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Liliuokalani_of_Hawaii.jpg) <God save the Queen!?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Kingdom_of_Hawaii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Kingdom_of_Hawaii)

Oberon

03-13-14, 01:03 PM

It must be serious, they've sent the liberator of Kabul into action:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01439/john_simpson_1439813c.jpg

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26564846

Jimbuna

03-13-14, 01:22 PM

US Secretary of State John Kerry has warned of a "serious series of steps" against Russia if the vote goes ahead.

UK Foreign Secretary William Hague has also called for the referendum to be abandoned, warning that EU sanctions would be stepped up if there is no progress in the "next few days".

I doubt this will cut any ice with Putin.

Catfish

03-14-14, 02:06 PM

Why should the EU expand into the east - to get Kiew and the Tartars into their bank accounts ?

This has been russian for so long, no one with a clear mind would ever think Russia or Putin will let that go, while helping an eastward NATO expansion that transfers the border eastward, some 300 km next to Stalingrad.
It seems there is not one Foreign minister that's worth the money he costs the taxpayers.

Jimbuna

03-14-14, 03:48 PM

Jimbuna

03-14-14, 03:55 PM

No surprises here then...

No Ukraine accord in US-Russia talks

Russia and the US have "no common vision" on the crisis in Ukraine, Russia's foreign minister has said, after talks with his US counterpart.

However Sergei Lavrov called his London meeting with John Kerry "constructive".

Mr Kerry said the US was "deeply concerned" about Russia sending troops to the Ukraine border and in Crimea.

Mr Lavrov said Moscow would respect the result of Sunday's referendum in Crimea on whether to join Russia but Mr Kerry said the US would not recognise it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26583697

Skybird

03-14-14, 05:04 PM

With the Tartars dripping back into the Crimea since years now, a long with them came radical elements, to call it this way, but with the growing tensions now, media have reported that a sharp increase in djihadists arriving in the Crimean area has to be logged as well, which must be a major concern for the Russians. They have already several problems with such guys in their southern areas, and several wars, and they maybe hold the potential to turn the cold showdown over the Crimea into a hot one, though probably not during the referendum day already, but in the months coming.

Meanwhile, fascist agent provocateurs seem to try their best to bring the mood around Donezk close to explosion point. That is the fascist groups that claimed posts in the inteiurm government and that has not been elected and is being treated by Western powers as if it had been elected.

The US, Germany, and other EU monuments meanwhile still act and babbel the same way they do since so many years now when it comes to Russia. Russia, be stupid, Russia, please hurt yourself, Russia, do what we tell you is the best for you. It seems they never learn. They must be drowning in their own self-righteousness.

Yesterday, factions ion the EU parliament demanded that former chancellor Schroeder, who now is a close buddy of Putin, should be ordered to shut up. It were the greens demanding that, I think. It'S always nice to see how totalitarian these shining examples of democracy, freedom and toleranc become when being confronted with statements and opinions that they do not like. Schroeder said that he had suppoprted a violeationa gainst itnenrational law himself when he was in office (the German support for the attack on Yugoslavia), and that he cannot condemn Putin when considering the strategic and very challenging position the Russians are in in the Crimea region. He accused the West already several days ago to rightout ignore vital, essential security interests the Russians necessarily must have there. However, one must also mention that Schroeder holds a seat in the directors board of Gazprom, I think. I don't like schroeder, but sometimes he simply is right, which is the case here.

The West should urge Kiew to hold free elections immediately (isnt that the holy grail of democracy-celebrators?) , and should have a very very sharp eye on both the fascist faction now in the interim government, and the many names (leading as high as to the self-declared interim prime minister) who have maintained close relations to the organised crime, and dubious oligarchs. At the same time, the West should press - if necessary: blackmail - Kiew to give up any provocation in the East and to avoid a shooting war with russia at all costs. Finally, the West has to understand that the Crimea has a different meaning and so very much higher importance for Russia, then for the EU or Kiev, or the far far away US, and that it cannot be in Europe'S interest to have a costly showdown over this unimportant issue that again would do more damage to Europe than to the US (if Russia does not unleash a currency war against the dollar, which they most likely are capable of).

And Germany especially must understand how closely interwoven (?) Russian and German economic intere3sts are, with Germany leading Western investments in Russia, and thus having more at risk there than anyone else. A damage of the german economy over Russia, necessarily must backfire against the financial "stability" ( :D:haha::har:) of the whole EU, possibly letting the house of cards collapse earlier than they expected.

The current regime and names in Kiev, we must not care for. They have no legitimation at all so far from their own people, but simply grabbed in ppower what they could with rudeness and force when Yanukovich fled. And as I said, this are highly dubious names and men. The billions promised to Kiew by the US and the EU, is money that for the most gets directly invested into organised crime, I am certain.

Gotta love Western intelligence. So bright. So clever. So - well, so well-meant.

mapuc

03-14-14, 05:20 PM

I'm getting more and more pessimistic. In the beginning I was optimistic.

Have just read the latest breaking news.

Russia threaten to invade easten Ukraine. To protect the Russian people.

Markus

Skybird

03-14-14, 05:29 PM

That'S what I mean. Kiew really is calling for it. The man who got killed today, also should hjave been a fascist agent provocateur, several Western news outlets have reported.

I am quite certain that while Putin wanted the Crimea, he initially had little interest to get pulled into a bigger conflicts over the Eastern provinces. He now may have no other choice than to allow that. But wanted or not, the Russians again seem to be better prepared for that, than the Westukrainian forces.

Small fish should realise that big fish indeed is bigger fish while there still is time.

Skybird

03-14-14, 05:41 PM

Russian defence company Rostec claims they captured a US drone over the Crimea after use of electronic jamming. The drone should have been in functional condition, able to carry two missiles,a nd by its marking bein part of a unit that operate thse drones from a base in Bavaria, Germany. They claim it already where the second drone they captured.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-us-drohne-angeblich-ueber-der-krim-abgefangen-a-958757.html

If the Us do that after the referendum and after the parliament filed a request to become part of the Russian union, this could be easily interpreted as an act of war. And with so many pointing fingers currently glued to triggers and red buttons... Better don't call.

Skybird

03-14-14, 05:43 PM

Serb news, simply the first english link I found.

http://inserbia.info/news/2014/03/mq-5b-hunter-drone-from-66th-us-brigade-captured-intact-by-russian-forces/

Jimbuna

03-15-14, 06:17 AM

As of October 2012, the U.S. Army had 20 MQ-5B Hunters in service.

That number may well be 19 now.

Skybird

03-15-14, 06:33 AM

18.

Says one of the articles. The Russians claim they caught two drones.

Jimbuna

03-15-14, 06:47 AM

Always deduct one for the diplomatic propaganda factor :)

BossMark

03-15-14, 11:30 AM

Russia won 30 medals in biathlon in Sochi.
I bet it was another military exercise.

Betonov

03-15-14, 12:08 PM

Russia won 30 medals in biathlon in Sochi.
I bet it was another military exercise.

I've seen them compete live on Pokljuka.
It's not who's first, it's who gets closest to the Russian

Jimbuna

03-15-14, 03:54 PM

No surprises here then apart from China abstaining for a change.

Russia has vetoed a draft UN resolution criticising Sunday's secession referendum in Ukraine's Crimea region - the only Security Council member to vote against the measure.

China, regarded as a Russian ally on the issue, abstained from the vote.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26595776

Oberon

03-15-14, 04:32 PM

Interesting move by China, obviously not close enough allies with Russia to want to take the flak with them, but not distant enough to want to vote in favour. Still, not that it really matters with the self-serving veto power granted to the UNSC which undermines its existence, so there you go. :O:

Schroeder

03-15-14, 04:36 PM

Crimea will be Russian in the very near future. We should get used to it as there is nothing we can really do about it (without massive backlash that is...).:-?

mapuc

03-15-14, 04:58 PM

The question is now

will there be a war between Ukraine and Crimea/Russia?

the next question, will this war escalate?

Markus

Aktungbby

03-15-14, 05:12 PM

No surprises here then apart from China abstaining for a change.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26595776

Not exactly a surprise when they did the same in Tibet as we did in Hawaii; no hands are squeaky clean here! More a case of which rat has the scalier tail:O:

Jimbuna

03-15-14, 07:08 PM

Oberon

03-15-14, 08:38 PM

Soooo....back to an arms race that Russia won't be able to compete against the west with? :hmmm:

I doubt it, we're still smarting from the after-effects of the last one. :dead:

Jimbuna

03-16-14, 06:01 AM

Well the outcome is beyond doubt when you consider the two choices on the ballot paper both amount to leaving the Ukraine to all intents and purposes.

Betonov

03-16-14, 08:15 AM

I see three scenarios if Crimea joins Russia.

-Kiev backs down and things ease up

-Kiev thinks the west is backing them up and tries to retake Crimea but the west backs down and Ukraine is clobered

-Kiev thinks the west is backing them up and tries to retake Crimea and the west joins the fray and then goes my England trip

Schroeder

03-16-14, 08:23 AM

-Kiev thinks the west is backing them up and tries to retake Crimea and the west joins the fray and then goes my England trip
Very unlikely. Germany won't do anything militarily and I can't see any western nation to send troops as their local populations wouldn't support that. It will all come down to plenty of sabre rattling, useless sanctions (like forbidding people to enter the EU who would never come here anyway), emotional speeches and then everybody goes back to normal sooner or later.

Oberon

03-16-14, 08:25 AM

Well, Kiev is not sounding like it's going to back down, but as we all know, what things sound like and what they actually are, are two different things.

"I want to say above all ... to the Ukrainian people: Let there be no doubt, the Ukrainian state will find all those ringleaders of separatism and division who now, under the cover of Russian troops, are trying to destroy Ukrainian independence,"

"Russia must immediately withdraw its military troops out of Crimea and the Black Sea Fleet to their places of permanent deployment as it is backed by certain basic agreements between Ukraine and Russia. Ukrainian navy headquarters was and is going to stay in Sevastopol. As for the National Guard, a few days ago, more than 40,000 people have already signed up and volunteered for the military commissariat.

And Russia is preparing for potential conflict:

Russian troops have placed several dozen anti-tank mines outside a base of Ukrainian marines in the Crimean town of Feodosiya, the UNIAN news agency reports, quoting the Ukrainian navy.

Russian security forces have also been throwing grenades into the water next to Ukrainian navy ships in Sevastopol's Kuryna Bay, according to the UNIAN news agency.

Meanwhile, apparently a truce has been negotiated between the Russian and Ukrainian forces in Crimea which is to last until 21st of March, after then what happens is anyones best guess.

antikristuseke

03-16-14, 08:52 AM

The odds of the Ukraine reciving any military aid are slim to none. This referendum farce will go through, crimea will be joiend with the glorious soviet onion and everything will go on as before.

Skybird

03-16-14, 09:41 AM

Some thousand Western enterprises have done hugh investments in Russia, which in case of war with Russia would be at risk (and that is what we talk of when mentioning "Western intervention on the Crimea: war with Russia). Germany is the forerunner on these joint ventures and investments. 30% of Europe'S gas is delivered by Russia. Russia hold the third-biggest stockpile of US bonds and dollars in the world. A formidable threat, the latter. They have withheld to play that card so far, for that special opporutntitry, like the Chinese. Wetserns donot beleive that. I think such westerners act by a desperate logic of "they cannot do what they in our own interest should not do".

There you have your chances for a Western intervention forming up: zero.

They already continue to talk in a way that shows me that they have learned nothing, absolutely nothing. Instead of realising that Russia has vital strategic interests that are different from Europe's, they now talk of bringing the ukraine not just into the EU, but also into NATO as fast as possible. I can just shake my head in consternation about so much ignorance. It is madness, but follows the same stupid paths the West has followed on Russia since the cold war ended: pushing them, pushing them more, and then pushing them even more. The result is that a country and a man named Putin, who were once set to close the gap between both, later u-turned after getting disillusioned, and are not really interested in Europe anymore and give brown greasy stuff for what Europe thinks about them. There is only one reasonable role for the Ukraine: a mediating puffer between Europe and Russia, formally independent, economically tied to both Europe and Russia as well, and without any military role that could bring Nato onto its soil. A land where Europe fades out, and Middle East and Russia fade in. This would be something that also Russian geopolitical interest could arrange itself with. It would give the country a perspective of becoming important indeed as a broker between the West, and Russia. Precondition for that is that the Ukrainian people do not care so much for that peninsula that plays no practical role for most Ukrainians' life anyway (and that has been disputed and has been Russian before), but that they care for the criminal elites and oligarchs wrecking them and abusing them since so long, so that they hunt them down and chase them out of the country - or cut their heads off. Mind you, both Yanukovich and Tymochenko have been elected by the people, originally. If people bring such people into power again and again, or allow them to grab power themselves, then I think such a people does not deserve anything better. This is what Ukrainians should be concerned about, imo, not some foolish pride over a distant peninsula that has little practical meaning for most of them. With the big cleaning they best start at with the criminals and gangsters that have hijacked their latest revolution once again, and secured the state'S offices for themselves without being legitimated for that by the people. But that nationalistic sentiment! That precious, sweet, wonderfull sense for nationalism, pathos and symbols of tempting grandeur! Too many people are junkies for that sort of feelings.

I know how Russia will react to that idea of NATO in the Ukraine. They already are after Moldavia, and will make that one a completed task, they also will destabilize the Ukraine if it threatens to become a NATO base, for Russia simply cannot allow that to happen, mand if necessary they indeed will start an occupation of more parts of the Ukraine. They cannot afford to let the Ukraine go into the West completely. If you want them to complete that task, go ahead, make the Ukraine a NATO member. Its the shortest path to getting the Ukraine sacked by Moscow, and raising chances for a bigger war between Europe and Russia. And that war Eurpope at least is a badly prepared for as Russia. Only that the Russians are far more determined than European powers.

Europe must learn two things: first it must stop to define Russian interests for the Russians that are not Russian interests but European interests, and second it must learn that stupid bigmouthing as the EU does all the time leads nowhere and cannot compensate lacking military potency.

One example I read today: last week the EU parliament signed a resolution for protecting the Antarctic. The Green and other world improving philantropists are happy. Two days later the Russians flew 350 paratroopers and tons of military equipment into the Arctic for military exercises , airdropping the troops and material at weather conditions and wind speeds that would prevent Western forces to do the same under such lousy conditions, they claim. The troops then conducted a simulated raid on an airfield, and securing it so fast that one hour later first military transports could land and bring in more military supplies.

Resolutions. A waste of breath, time and ink. But hey, I have a great idea. They could send Putin a petition. A EU parliament petition. :D Sweet! Isn't that a strong gesture? They could also lower the defence budget once again and reduce their armed forces, as a sign of their good will.

:har:

03-16-14, 11:09 AM

So much drama.

The difference between NATO and the Russan block appear to be a matter of choice.
Most NATO members are voluntary while with the eastern block it is very much grey area.
The issue with Ukraine is for the Ukrainians to be able to make their choices independently.
NATO may open the door but at the end it is their choice to make.

Really ... are you suffering some sort of stockholm syndrome or your dislike of EU clouds your vision.
Putin makes big impression with his dick waving isn't he?:haha::yeah:
Lets walk on tiptoes now.
Quite opposite to western wanky polite diplomacy.
Here comes deja vu.......sort of lol.
So actually , what are you calling for here anyway?:06:

Jimbuna

03-16-14, 12:16 PM

All in all, whichever opinion you have...a right royal mess :nope:

Skybird

03-16-14, 12:31 PM

... that could have been avoided if one would not think since 20 years that Russia must act by Western standards and interests, and must please Western demands by acting against its own self-understanding and own interest. In other words: the West notoriously expects Russia to act stupid. And it is that expectation that is stupid.

Is it so much asked for to learn that Russia acts by Russian standards and interests, and that sooner or later it must bite back if you constantly ignore that?

That is no "drama", MH. It just is avoiding the kind of simplification that you base on.

Aktungbby

03-16-14, 01:48 PM

^:agree: From Von Clausewitz: 'Never count on your enemy doing what your plan calls for him to do'...assuming you have a plan in the first place...and we don't!

Tribesman

03-16-14, 02:13 PM

That is no "drama", MH. It just is avoiding the kind of simplification that you base on.
That is quite funny as your views on this are over simplified to the extreme.
Though what is really funny in this topic is how many times in such a short space of time you have expressed views which are directly contradictory to your own views which you have insisted were correct.
Seems like a perfect example of Doublethink.:yep:

03-16-14, 03:01 PM

That is no "drama", MH. It just is avoiding the kind of simplification that you base on

You try to hard...
I'm well aware of the geopolitical games , it is banal issue.
Russia is taking care of its own business for external and internal purposes...sort of nation building after the shambles of USSR , the economical disorder or the cracked federation.
Yet does not mean that i have to relate to this.
Letting go Ukraine would make Putin look weak - he worked so hard to build his image of Roman emperor.

Nothing much has changed , what always glued Russia together was and is the ruthless leadership and Putin delivers the Act.
.... this guy sometimes acts like Mussolini.:haha:

Russia is suffering consequences of trying to be what it could not be.
Another country which builds own image of strength from outside in ... instead from inside out.
Sort of like NK but on grander scale.

Look at China ...Chinese know what they are doing.

Oberon

03-16-14, 04:33 PM

Election officials say 95.5% of voters have backed joining Russia in the referendum, after half of the ballots were counted

http://www.musiker-board.de/attachments/f3-musik-instrumente-know-how//f75-e-gitarren-forum//f44-verstaerker-boxen-e-git//254585d1357135689-orange-dark-terror-frage-zur-wattzahl-hauptmann-offensichtlich.jpg

Schroeder

03-16-14, 05:04 PM

We actually don't use the "Captain Obvious" thing in German....:88)

Oberon

03-16-14, 05:42 PM

We actually don't use the "Captain Obvious" thing in German....:88)

http://i.imgur.com/Y5363Y3.jpg

Tribesman

03-16-14, 07:47 PM

What sort of dictator only gets 95% in a rigged illegal vote?
Putin ought to take serious measures against the election officials, it certainly wouldn't happen N. Korea.
Pyongyang knows how to deal with that sort of failure.

Aktungbby

03-16-14, 08:18 PM

- he worked so hard to build his image of Roman emperor.

Nothing much has changed , what always glued Russia together was and is the ruthless leadership and Putin delivers the Act.
.... this guy sometimes acts like Mussolini.:haha:

Russia is suffering consequences of trying to be what it could not be.
Another country which builds own image of strength from outside in ... instead from inside out.
Sort of like NK but on grander scale.

INDEED! a veritable 'Genghis' Vladimir...Where's the horde?:Dhttp://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/putin091311/s_p19_RTR26F3Y.jpg

Oberon

03-16-14, 09:04 PM

BossMark

03-17-14, 01:42 AM

Must be pretty awful going to vote with a rifle pointed at your head, 95% vote yes I wonder what will happen to the other 5% who voted no :hmm2:

Jimbuna

03-17-14, 05:27 AM

Must be pretty awful going to vote with a rifle pointed at your head, 95% vote yes I wonder what will happen to the other 5% who voted no :hmm2:

They were probably the Tatars who refused to take part in the voting.

Skybird

03-17-14, 07:45 AM

http://cdn2.spiegel.de/images/image-671331-galleryV9-dwyu.jpgAfter all, the ordinary needs of life remain. :)

95% Is more than i expected, it probably is due to the Tartars having boycotted the referendum and the Ukrainians (around 25% of the Crimea population) mostly stayed home in resignation over the expected result, that they would not win the referendum anyway even if all people were going to vote. - I would have expected around a two thirds majority if all people would have voted.

Schroeder

03-17-14, 07:59 AM

At least they seem to be paying for the stuff they take...

Jimbuna

03-17-14, 08:05 AM

At least they seem to be paying for the stuff they take...

I was thinking that but also wondering...if that shop is owned by a Ukrainian supporter, that bottle of Pepsi may also include the liquid contents of a toilet break :)

Jimbuna

03-17-14, 08:08 AM

What a joke....freeze the foreign investments of the only person who can effect change...Putin.

The EU has agreed to impose travel bans and asset freezes against 21 officials from Russia and Ukraine, following Sunday's referendum in Crimea.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26613567

Skybird

03-17-14, 08:13 AM

The "sanctions" are meaningless. Which is not that bad at all. The kind of sanctions hurting the Russians, would sooner or later backfire against ourselves - and hurt us more than the Russians if they decide to play the sanction-you-sanction-me game really tough.

What makes a difference is that the Crimea was highly depending on the Ukraine. Over 80% of its needed energy was delivered by the Crimea, trading good not even mentioned. Russia will need 3-5 years to establish bridges and road corridors from Russia to the Crimea.

For Russia, this will become a very expensive enterprise. Moscow will need to take over where the Ukraine now will refuse to deliver.

Oberon

03-17-14, 08:14 AM

12:24:
The parliament in Crimea has voted to take ownership of a key state-run Ukrainian energy company located in the region, our colleagues at BBC Monitoring report.
A resolution posted on the parliament's website says Chornomornaftohaz, a local oil and gas company, and the Crimean-based assets of Ukrtranshaz, Ukraine's main gas transit company, now belong to "the Republic of Crimea".

http://pad3.whstatic.com/images/thumb/0/0c/Safely-Light-a-Firework-Step-3.jpg/670px-Safely-Light-a-Firework-Step-3.jpg

Jimbuna

03-17-14, 08:19 AM

I found this article interesting.

Russia 'planned Wall Street bear raid'
There is a cynicism in the relationship between Russia and the US, being played out in the Crimean crisis, which is deep, rooted in history and shows that the triumph of capitalism over communism wasn't the end of the power game between these two nations.

The depth of mistrust between the two was highlighted in the interview given by Hank Paulson, the former US treasury secretary, for my recent BBC Two documentary, How China Fooled The World.

The excerpts I am about to quote never made it into the film, because they weren't relevant to it. But they give a fascinating understanding of the complex relationship between Washington and Moscow.

Mr Paulson was talking about the financial crisis of the autumn of 2008, and in particular the devastation being wreaked on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the two huge underwriters of American mortgages - huge financial institutions that had a funny status at the time of being seen by investors to be the liability of the US government, which in legal reality were not exactly that.

Here is Mr Paulson on the unfolding drama:

"When Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac started to become unglued, and you know there were $5.4tn of securities relating to Fanny and Freddie, $1.7tn outside of the US. The Chinese were the biggest external investor holding Fanny and Freddie securities, so the Chinese were very, very concerned."

Or to put it another way, the Chinese government owned $1.7tn of mortgage-backed bonds issued by Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac, and it was deeply concerned it would incur huge losses on these bonds.

Mr Paulson: "I was talking to them [Chinese ministers and officials] regularly because I didn't want them to dump the securities on the market and precipitate a bigger crisis.

"And so when I went to Congress and asked for these emergency powers [to stabilize Fanny and Freddie], and I was getting the living daylights beaten out of me by our Congress publicly, I needed to call the Chinese regularly to explain to the Central Bank, 'listen this is our political system, this is political theatre, we will get this done'. And I didn't have quite that much certainty myself but I sure did everything I could to reassure them."

In other words, China had lent so much to the US that Mr Paulson needed to do his best to persuade its government and central bank that China's investment in all this US debt would not be impaired.

Now this is where we enter the territory of a geopolitical thriller. Mr Paulson:

"Here I'm not going to name the senior person, but I was meeting with someone… This person told me that the Chinese had received a message from the Russians which was, 'Hey let's join together and sell Fanny and Freddie securities on the market.' The Chinese weren't going to do that but again, it just, it just drove home to me how vulnerable I felt until we had put Fanny and Freddie into conservatorship [the rescue plan for them, that was eventually put in place]."

For me this is pretty jaw-dropping stuff - the Chinese told Hank Paulson that the Russians were suggesting a joint pact with China to drive down the price of the debt of Fanny and Freddie, and maximize the turmoil on Wall Street - presumably with a view to maximizing the cost of the rescue for Washington and further damaging its financial health.

Paulson says this guerrilla skirmish in markets by the Russians and Chinese didn't happen.

But this kind of intelligence from China on Russian desire and willingness to embarrass the US in a financial sense may help to explain - in a small way - why President Obama shows little desire to understand Crimea as seen by Mr Putin.

And maybe if the US is being a bit more robust than the EU in wanting to impose economic and financial sanctions on Russia, that may not all be about America's much lesser dependence (negligible dependence) on Russian gas and oil.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26609548

mapuc

03-17-14, 10:42 AM

Aktungbby

03-17-14, 01:17 PM

that bottle of Pepsi may also include the liquid contents of a toilet break :)
:sign_yeah:A "We're disputin' Putin Cock-tail"!:D :()1: (Yo Ivan, I'll refill both our bottles; move over Molotov!):O:

BossMark

03-17-14, 01:28 PM

Obama has warned Russia there will be "consequences" for their actions in Crimea.

Namely:

1. Russia will get a little bigger.
2. America will look a bit daft.

Skybird

03-17-14, 01:33 PM

Russia has demanded that the Ukrainian constitution is being changed. The Ukraine should become a federal state, and Russian should be guaranteed as a second official language.

the reasons can easily be seen. The language thing is about protecting the Russian minorities living in the Ukrainian West and strengthening the Eastern provinces, the constitution thing is ab out giving the Russian Eastern provinces solid influence in internal Ukrainian po9ltiics - something I argued from beginning on is one of the real top intentions of the Russians in this operation.

The exciting question will be how the Kremlin will react if the Ukraine becomes an official EU membership candidate or an EU member.

The Ukraine becoming a formal NATO member hopefully is a scenario that is not seriously pushed in the West.

When surfing the web, more and more info is being blogged and shown in various places that show to what degree Western money was used in the Ukraine to destabilise the situation and to provoke unrest. Considering what criminal figures and fascists have taken over and now are hailed by Western politicians as "true democrats", one could vomit about the Western hypocrisy here.

Meanwhile it became known today that the German government will not object to intentions by energy company RWE to sell shares or even all of DEA to Gazprom. That clearly indicates what to think about those robust words about sanctions they spit out all the time. It means nothing if at the same time a policy is being run that strengthens Russian influence in German and European energy policies. Jokes about boycotting Russian gas and use American companies as a replacement, are pointless, since the terminals needed in the Us to ship sufficient amounts of gas do not exist and would not be ready before several years - if the US energy revolution survives indeed. There are some indicators hinting that maybe it all is just a huge hype that lacks substance to last, US companies have reduced their investments in fracking and shale gas production in the past 6 months or so.

On the internaional law thing, I have read three comments by Germany experts for said international law now who all said the same: formally, the international law guarantees the integrity of national states "as they are" (which can be seen both positive and negative). However, there is not one detail ruling that local regions do not have a right to secede. The right to split up, is recognised. International law only marks some demands for the formal circumstances under which such a secession and earlier referendum should take place. - What we have in the given situatiohn, is a local population that by majority wants to no longer being governed by the Ukrainian government, but wants to secede. And that wish is perfectly legal, and it also is absolutely okay from a moral point of view. What can be criticised, is the speed by which the referendum was set up, not waiting for an elected government in Kiev to - well, to do what with said referendum? elay it? Cheat about it? Forbiddi8ng it in an act ofd dictatorial tyranny? And what kind of crimjnals can we expoect to get elected as new government when not he thugs of the ukrainian fascists rule the state offices and a money-stealing bitch like Tymochenko has still realistic chances to get elected? So, for mally you can attack Putin for pushing things this fast and uncompromised. In practical reality, why would one expect him to wait until a most likely corrupted leadership makes its nest in the Ukraine again, and then negotiate with them about something that is the natural right of people anyway knowing that these corrupted elites would never agree to let the Crimea voluntarily go anyway as if they had any claim to make and the population there being their property which they can own?

The west absolutely is no innocent player here, nor an honest broker. In the end the West does not necessarily want freedom and law and order in the Ukraine, what you can see in how they shake hands with Tymochenko and the current gang around the interim "prime minister". What the West wants is the Ukraine in the EU at all cost and NATO once again sneaking towards Russia's borders.

And we accuse Putin of thinking in schemes and patterns of the cold war...??? Double standards at their best, I say.

Last but not least, the referendum expresses a secondary message as well. A deep mistrust and antipathy for NATO, and the EU.

Ducimus

03-17-14, 01:46 PM

Obama has warned Russia there will be "consequences" for their actions in Crimea.

Namely:

1. Russia will get a little bigger.
2. America will look a bit daft.

Obama should have taken that old quote attributed to Abraham Lincoln to heart: " ‘Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt." You'd think he'd learn this after the Syrian Redline fiasco. No no, he has to go open his mouth again. His proposed sanctions are laughable at best.

No world leader has much reason to take this president seriously, nor pay heed to whatever it is he has to say. Nor is the United States in any social and economic position to put up much fight. Obama's mouth is moving, but nothing's coming out.

nikimcbee

03-17-14, 01:53 PM

Must be pretty awful going to vote with a rifle pointed at your head, 95% vote yes I wonder what will happen to the other 5% who voted no :hmm2:

Hanging chads.

03-17-14, 02:58 PM

The west absolutely is no innocent player here, nor an honest broker. In the end the West does not necessarily want freedom and law and order in the Ukraine, what you can see in how they shake hands with Tymochenko and the current gang around the interim "prime minister". What the West wants is the Ukraine in the EU at all cost and NATO once again sneaking towards Russia's borders.

Not necessarily but... Ukraine will have no choice but to reform and adapt to certain standards to be part of EU or NATO.
Take a look at NATO members including some poorer former Soviet republics.

What Ukraine has to gain by being part of Russian federation?
It has been 20 years under Russian influence as third world country.

Bilge_Rat

03-17-14, 03:39 PM

When surfing the web, more and more info is being blogged and shown in various places that show to what degree Western money was used in the Ukraine to destabilise the situation and to provoke unrest. Considering what criminal figures and fascists have taken over and now are hailed by Western politicians as "true democrats", one could vomit about the Western hypocrisy here.

link?

lurking, but following the situation and this thread closely.

Latest rumour is that there was massive vote fraud in the referendum, although that might just be put out by the western side to discredit the results.

Mr Quatro

03-17-14, 03:47 PM

I found this article interesting.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26609548

I would not have read all of that if it was just a link ... thanks Jim

It was a real eye opener to see how close Russia and China really are. They will protect each other even in a war and it wasn't that long ago (1978) that they were having a border dispute with each other now that I think about it.

This Friday is some kind of dead line Russia has given the Ukraine and it's forces to get out of their newly acquired area.

Russia should've never let it go in the first place which I now hear was 1954?

Personally I worry about which side President Obama has put us on:hmmm:

Who will flinch first? :o

Jimbuna

03-17-14, 03:50 PM

I would not have read all of that if it was just a link ... thanks Jim

It was a real eye opener to see how close Russia and China really are. They will protect each other even in a war and it wasn't that long ago (1978) that they were having a border dispute with each other now that I think about it.

This Friday is some kind of dead line Russia has given the Ukraine and it's forces to get out of their newly acquired area.

Russia should've never let it go in the first place which I now hear was 1954?

Personally I worry about which side President Obama has put us on:hmmm:

Who will flinch first? :o

I doubt it will be Putin :hmmm:

Wolferz

03-17-14, 03:52 PM

Atlas shrugged.:yep:

Skybird

03-17-14, 05:18 PM

Not necessarily but... Ukraine will have no choice but to reform and adapt to certain standards to be part of EU or NATO.
Take a look at NATO members including some poorer former Soviet republics.

Hungary. Romania. Corrupt snake pits, massive deficits regarding precious democracy. Should have never been allowed into the EU.

Greece. Must not be explained - and even was not a former USSR republic.

And the erosion and violation of laws and treaties by the EU and the other states, ALL THE TIME.

Poland and former Czechoslovakia do not compare to the Ukraine, since their people always felt oppressed by the USSR, whereas many in the Ukraine do not, and are ethnic Russians.

Kiew is still called by many Russians the "original mother of Russia."

What Ukraine has to gain by being part of Russian federation?
It has been 20 years under Russian influence as third world country.So what, does your and my assessment there count? No. What the people in the place think about it - that is what counts. And what the Kremlin allows to let happen. And in parts of the Ukraine people by majority obviously do not share your view.

Or is it about Svoboda? Mind you, German NPD and other European nationalspocialist extrmeist parties and Nazi ga gs maintain close relations with Svoboda. Svoboda seats several interim ministers right now. Other of the Maidan top atcivists who hijacked the events, are dubious figures, oligarchs, people close to the organised crime. Tymochenko is lika that as well. That is the pack people will have to vote their "representatives" from. There is Klitschko, a frendly guy believingn in fairt play and sportsmanship, that is why he has been overrolled by Svobody, which had stormed offices and claimed ministries for thmesleves while Klitschko still was calling his Uday party btogetzher to guess hioch of their own people they should send into negotations for right these offices. He is hopelessly naive, imo. What do you expect from allowing this Ukraine into the EU? The EU cannot even change things in Hungary. And NATO - do you still think the Russians will sit still when NATO moves ionce agaion right to its borders? One should know that better by now. They will play the Moldavian card, and they will destabilize the Ukraine and claim influence to balance the destabilising and influence-grabbing by the Wets in the Ukraine.

The only victim of this Western advance - will be the Ukraine itself.

Dread Knot

03-17-14, 05:42 PM

Ducimus

03-17-14, 06:57 PM

Why does it not surprise me that the ex-community organizer is getting his clock cleaned by the ex-KGB agent in international affairs? :shifty: I guess they don't teach much realpolitik in community organizer 101.

I was going to post a picture. Instead, ill just say, Google image search "Obama vs Putin". Too many pics, not enough space to post.

edit:
Nevermind, found one!
http://tpc.pc2.netdna-cdn.com/images/Obama_Putin_Differences.jpg

Schroeder

03-17-14, 07:01 PM

Why does it not surprise me that the ex-community organizer is getting his clock cleaned by the ex-KGB agent in international affairs? :shifty: I guess they don't teach much realpolitik in community organizer 101.
What do you expect him to do? Start a war over Crimea? Install sanctions that will backfire badly on the American economy?
Besides our non community manager politicians aren't doing much better than him so he is at least not more incompetent than our guys and gals.

Oberon

03-17-14, 07:21 PM

Damned if you do and damned if you don't. That's pretty much the situation for the wests leaders in this scenario. No matter what any of them do it we will judge it as the wrong action. :know:

August

03-17-14, 08:19 PM

I'm thinking that within the year this will be repeated in eastern Ukraine.

nikimcbee

03-17-14, 08:57 PM

:hmmm:I got a new threat we could issue. Draws line in sand, Get out of Ukraine or we'll include the Russian Federation in Obamacare.:haha:

nikimcbee

03-17-14, 08:59 PM

Wait a minute, hold the phone... Where have all of the Obama-believers gone? (not that I miss them):O:

I blame Bush.

BossMark

03-18-14, 03:20 AM

http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee374/rothwellwhite1/11680_zps5595e8f6.jpg

Oberon

03-18-14, 06:36 AM

Wait a minute, hold the phone... Where have all of the Obama-believers gone? (not that I miss them):O:

I blame Bush.

Probably got bored of banging their heads against the brick wall and left. Or perhaps they don't see this thread as an ample opportunity to bash Obama and perhaps see it as a discussion on the crisis in the Ukraine and not one on American politics. :hmmm:

Ducimus

03-18-14, 07:28 AM

I'm thinking that within the year this will be repeated in eastern Ukraine.

I'm not understanding why Obummer has to open his yap about the Ukraine to begin with. How does any of what is going on there relevant to us? What business is it of ours, and why the hell should we care? That's the part i'm missing. We have PLENTY of problems of our own.

:hmmm:I got a new threat we could issue. Draws line in sand, Get out of Ukraine or we'll include the Russian Federation in Obamacare.:haha:

Putin would probably do what he's doing now. Laugh. :O:

Skybird

03-18-14, 07:40 AM

In German, sorry, but a very insightful and very very recommendable piece, if you can understand German a bit, I urge you to listen in, it is nine minutes.

http://www1.wdr.de/mediathek/audio/wdr3/audiokrimkriseeingespraechmitprofjoergbaberowskiwd r100-audioplayer.html

This is an telephone interview with Jörg Baberowski, professor for Easteuropean history, about the ignorance the West shows regarding the importance of identity and its historic roots, the fact that Ukraine is not a state with a long history but an artificial creation founded 1991 where people did not deny their sympathy for the old empire but voted for sovereignty only in hope for better living conditions, and that Russia is not a single ethnic state as well, but multi-ethnic state where the majority of people still identifies itself with the former empirial spirit.

I indeed think that the West acts totally blind and stupid in this matter, and of course with its usual messianic arrogance and self-glorifying self-perception. We demonise Putin and think without him all Russia's many ethnic groups all of a sudden would tick in western fashion. Bullsh!t! Have we nothing learned from the fails our interventions resulted in in recent years?

There is no Ukrainian, separate identity, there never was, the Ukraine is an artificial creation that has a deep split in its heart between the Western aeras where people were parts of the former Poland and the multi-ethnic Danube empire,. and the East, which always was Russia. Many people in the Ukraine have family members in Russia - and we wonder why they feel close to Russia and vote for Russia in a referendum? There is no democratic tradition established in the Ukraine as well, after any elections, the winner started to throw his opponents into prison, Yanukovich did, Tymochenko did - and both of them do not speak "Ukrainian" when they talk to the crowds, but Russian. Klitschko practices that as well, Baberowski points out.

The West I think is totally misled, in total denial of historic realities, and in total refusal of learning lessons from history over this.

Its the first time I read or hear somebody in Western media reflecting about the real history behind the Ukraine and the importance of ethnic identity for why so many people still identify themselves with the former empire and refuse the West. Already when the Ukraine was artificially founded in 1991, most people did not do so because of sympathy for the West or for democracy, but because they hoped for improving living conditions, a hope that failed them.

I also am with the professor where he states at the end that it does not matter at all whether you like Putin or not, but that you have to come to terms with reality. Putin is there - and he enjoys a very big majority in support not just over the Ukraine, but in general, and currently is more popular than ever before. This we finally have to realise and accept. Russia is not a mono-ethnic but a multi-ethnic state - fact. Most people still identify themselves with the former empire - fact. That many Ukrainians (whether they are ethnic Russians or not) prefer Russia over the West, again is this - fact. Also, it is only natural that they do, and many have roots leading back to Russia, have living family there - fact. But we in the West think by the same stupid patterns by which we have messed up the Balkans, and the Middle East before, we create artificial borderlines that ignore cultural and ethnic realities on the ground, we force together what does not match, and split what yearns to stay together. And some of us even think "Hey, we are the wonderful Westerners, it cannot be imagined that there are people who do not want to be as great and wonderful as ourselves! They all crave to be like us, and when they criticise us, they do so only because they are greedy for how wonderful and rich we are!" After so many years I'm so absolutely sick and tired of this blind arrogance, I could vomit such people into their arrogant wide grinning faces.

And we complain about Putin finally having enough of Western folly and arrogance...? Honestly, I think, the biggest idiots in all this - and the most unscrupulous ones! - is not Putin, or the Russians, but it is ourselves, the West. On American behalf, I can take into account that it is brutal politics to increase the influence of American gas companies and push back the Russians, but whether that is a flattering compliment, can be doubted.

What to do next? I think the best would be if the Ukraine, this artificial creation without any history of independent sovereignity, is being split up, into thew West that before was part of Poland and the Austrian empire, and the East that always has been Russian. The borders between both should be lose and not tight, to respect the simply fact that many people in both parts have social links to the other half of the former Ukraine as well, and that even in the Wets many people have links and even roots in Russia. But to force these two things together in one national entity, like artificial borderlines have been drawn on maps in the Middle East so often, leading to notorious conflicts and later wars and breaking-ups, imo is the worst of all solutions.

I have almost no doubt that nobody in the West who has some influence in policy-making and the major media, will aloow that to happenb. Our riuthless stupdity will be pushed by us to the utmost maximum, no doubt. And all the time we will blame it on big bad boy Putin. And while we do so, we only show that most of us are absolutely cluel-less about Russia, and the Ukraine.

Dread Knot

03-18-14, 07:51 AM

Looks like the breakaway part of Moldova, the majority Russian Trans-Dniester, wants to join the party too.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26627236

Skybird

03-18-14, 07:52 AM

Probably got bored of banging their heads against the brick wall and left. Or perhaps they don't see this thread as an ample opportunity to bash Obama and perhaps see it as a discussion on the crisis in the Ukraine and not one on American politics. :hmmm:
Ukraine is an issue that is burning on Europe's doorstep, not Americas. And that is why we should resist American demands to push the Russians, because the first and direct consequences will hit us, not the Americans, and it will be us paying most of the price, not the Americans. The US does not compare to the trade ammounts we do, especially us Germans, with Russia. The US will not be directly affected as long as the Russians do not unleash a war against the dollar and US bonds - which they are capable of, I think. Even more, it may be in American interest to stirr a conflict between Russia and Europe, it may increase chances for US energy companies that sympathise with the idea to build huge terminals for shipping gas to Europe - at much higher cost for Europe, of course (shipping gas by ship is much more expensive than via pipeline) and leading europe from dependence from Russia into dependence from America.

Diversification is in Europe's interest here. And probably a return (in Germany) to nuclear energy. Well, tell that a romantic German. You'll get chased through the streets in no time. We want our energy instabile, insecure, and expensive! :up: Deindustrialization is the ordinary German's motto - in full ignorance of our export and financial realities. We compensate the cutting of scientific classes at school with anti-aggression trainings, classes in tolerance, and courses in creative dancing. No joke, its reality in more and more schools over here.

Infantiler Affentanz, das alles.

CCIP

03-18-14, 07:52 AM

Meanwhile, let's take a look at how Putin has managed to quash some of the opposition and silence internal opposition to this (obviously very bad) move in Russia. It's through a clever piece of rhetorical/sociopolitical engineering that Western politicians could only dream of. Here it is from an opposition perspective (in Russian):

http://slon.ru/russia/2011_2014_bolshoy_putinskiy_test-1071447.xhtml

Translated it for you here:

2011-2014: THE GREAT PUTIN TEST

[This situation] could be framed as a test, in which there are a series of questions – there are two possible answers to each. And while the questions are a bit strange, answering them essentially straightforward. The first question was asked in December 2011 – the people were faced with the fact of rather questionable elections to the state Duma [parliament], and asked whether they agreed with their results. Those who replied that they agreed were immediately left in peace, while the others were asked a new question: here is Pussy Riot in the cathedral of Christ the Saviour, singing about Mother Mary and Putin – what should be done about that? The first option was to agree that those girls must necessarily be put in jail, to accept that the relationship between the Russian Orthodox Church and the state are not subject to discussion, let alone revision – that Orthodoxy must have a strong fist, and that spirituality is a political factor. Those who agreed with that were also left in peace, and those who did not […] effectively voted against Christianity.

Then there was the question of adoption of Russian children by Americans. The question was formulated as follows: in America, Russian children are typically dying, and those who are at fault for it are left without punishment – so do you agree to put an end to this horrible practice and ban adoptions by Americans? And those who said that they don’t agree voluntarily put a tag on themselves which effectively said that they have no sense of sympathy for the deaths of poor Russian children.

Then there was a question of “gay propaganda”, and those who answered negatively were labeled as supporters of gay marriage or worse. Then there was “territorial integrity”: do we put people in jail for debating it? Those who said no to imprisonment for that – they’re clearly in favour of dismemberment of the Russian state. There was also a question of the war: was Stalin right in everything, was the Red Army faultless? And those who said that no, not in everything – obviously a revisionist, a traitor.

For two years, while posing these loaded questions to the politically-active segment of society, Putin’s administration methodically and ruthlessly decimated the ranks of those who were ready to voice their disagreement with Putin’s course of policy. In December 2011, a loyal citizen could still go out to protest on Bolotnaya square if he was concerned about some irregularities in elections (which, in effect, were inconsequential anyway). Two years later, when the pressure of these first questions was combined with the load of the rest of them – Orthodox Christianity, gays, foreign adoption, war, territorial integrity – the price of holding an anti-Putin position rose by several times. The first Bolotnaya protest didn’t demand much sacrifice from a participant, but in these intervening years everything has changed. And this is to say nothing of the risk of losing your job or going to jail – no, it works simply even at the level of this: to say that you’re against Putin, you must also sign underneath a whole package of other statements, each of which demands additional courage – especially in case you don’t really don’t really have anything to say in favour of promoting gay relations, don’t think that Leningrad should’ve surrendered to the Germans, and don’t think that the mother of Christ is the correct addressee for qualms against Putin.

I’m listing these questions now that not so long ago were subject to lively and active debate, and now I feel rather trivial for even remembering them, because the next question on Putin’s test – this is already a few orders above everything that came before it. It’s not just about propaganda – now everything is about real lives, real people, real everything – Ukraine and especially Crimea. The Crimeans who voted to join Russia are celebrating. If you’re against Putin – now you’re against those people too, you say to their face: hey you, I don’t want to see you in Russia, I don’t need you, stay in Ukraine, for the sake of your and my freedom. Signing under this statement is even tougher than under gay marriages or American adoptions. Those who went out to protest against war in Moscow on Saturday – there were fewer of them than at rallies on Bolotnaya and Sakharov a couple of years earlier, but among them, it seems likely that there are no incidental people. Here are only those who are against Putin under any conditions. Those, whose dislike of the present Russian authority is stronger than anything in the world. These people on the boulevards are the products of a hellish, thoroughly brutal selection by Putin’s technocrats. Those, who in the course of two years passed through this incredible test. Those who didn’t give up, didn’t back down, didn’t change their minds. Different numbers are quoted by the media, but in any case they are several thousand men and women, citizens of the Russian Federation.

And perhaps a far more interesting question than the future of Crimea is: what plans does Putin have for these people, what will he do with them, how does he plan to coexist with them in the same country? It’s clear that in the Russia that Putin needs, these people shouldn’t exist in principle, but they’re here, they exist, so what to do with them? Judging from the set of extravagant actions which we observed in the last few weeks, Putin may also have some ideas for the prospects facing the anti-Putin minority, and it’s doubtful that among these ideas there’s a single one that could be described as nice – but however horrible these prospects look, one still wants to know how precisely how Putin plans to reduce this minority to a zero. The moral bankruptcy of the leaders of December 2011, who once agreed to this test, can already be considered an irreversible fact. And so these people on the boulevards, they’re facing Putin one on one – such is our tragic model of sociopolitical order.

As a Russian myself, I have no illusions about history and identity. Sure, most Crimeans want to be in Russia. That's not the issue, the issue is manner and spirit in which all of this is conducted, and the repercussions it will have. It's not worth it. And more disturbingly, it's all part of a game to make everyone shut up and accept things as they are, no matter how rash or unjust.

Another referendum is happening quietly in the meantime: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26604044

I'd like Putin & co. to learn some lessons from this instead.

Skybird

03-18-14, 08:21 AM

And more disturbingly, it's all part of a game to make everyone shut up and accept things as they are, no matter how rash or unjust.
It has been like that with any Ukrainian leadership voted for since 1991. ;)

Another referendum is happening quietly in the meantime: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26604044

The interesting part is in the sentence saying that the referendum is not legally binding.

I'd like Putin & co. to learn some lessons from this instead.

Maybe he has: that there has been enough pointless babbling going on, and that there will never be a government inKiew willing to seriously negotiate over letting the Crimea go, no mjatter any refrendum there. Since how many years is Kiew now dancing on his nose? Mind you, Putin played tough on the cmrinals who made it to oiligarchs in the Yeltzin years, he did so when they started to attempt translating financial wealth into more political power in state affairs than was to be tolerated by the state- and that includes this now-declared saint and darling of the West, Chodorkowsky, who was a Saul and no behaves like a Paul. The West has a very short memory. It was the only way to show the organised crime threatening to completely hijack the state the red line and bring corruption back onto a level where politics nevertheless could provide a minimum of functionality and authority.

Could you imagine to run Russia and keep it together with a babble show like the EU parliament? Do Western leaders not act autocratic when ignoring laws and violating treaties in order to boost the EU and the Euro? The Russian guy uses a rubberstick and riot police. The European guy uses sweet lies and bribery that the bribed victim later has to pay back - with taxes (protection money), rising debts and money devaluation (expropriation), and interests and interests' interest. The one leaves office and later comes back. The other gets not elected, and claims another offices again somewhere else. Both are impossible to get rid of. In Russia things stay as threy are due to state command and order. In the West they stay the same since decades although people vote.

In both spheres, since this is a physically limited world, the result necessarily must be total collapse. The only difference is the different kinds of illusions people have.

Skybird

03-18-14, 08:30 AM

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/indirect-berlin-support-for-ukrainian-right-wing-extremists-svoboda-a-959073.html

Tribesman

03-18-14, 09:21 AM

I'm not understanding why Obummer has to open his yap about the Ukraine to begin with. How does any of what is going on there relevant to us? What business is it of ours, and why the hell should we care? That's the part i'm missing. We have PLENTY of problems of our own.

Well I know this is complicated and can be difficult to grasp.
But what it has to do with your nation and why your president has to open his yap is sort of because your nation and your president stood as a guarantor to Ukraine for its sovereignty and territorial integrity.
Now I know it is difficult to penetrate that partisan murk some people live in, but the situation your nation and your president finds itself in regarding Ukraine is a legacy of St. Ronnie thinking he had won the cold war and had brought freedom independence sovereignty and safety to all those nations suffering under Russian occupation....like for example errrr....Ukraine:yep:

See, complicated stuff isn't it, or is it really really simple:hmmm:

Aktungbby

03-18-14, 09:49 AM

See, complicated stuff isn't it, or is it really really simple:hmmm:
:agree:INDEED! To quote the master:doh:, VON Clausewitz. ON WAR : from chapter 7 "Friction in War":..."Everything in war is very simple but the simplest thing is difficult" It also doesn't help when:1: you are in a perceived state of financial and moral decline; 2: your firepower hasn't won its last two wars and 3: the 'enemy isn't doing what your plan calls for it to do...primarily because there IS no Plan...Ukraine is a 'bridge too far' at present for the US and Putin knows it. Both China and Russia has chosen this time to get uppity... 'cause they can.:wah:

Tribesman

03-18-14, 10:00 AM

Too sarcastic eh?

Ok.

I'm not understanding why Obummer has to open his yap about the Ukraine to begin with How does any of what is going on there relevant to us? What business is it of ours, and why the hell should we care? That's the part i'm missing. We have PLENTY of problems of our own.
Because he was elected to be in charge of what is apparently a global superpower.
Things that happen on the globe are relevant to a global superpower because it is a global superpower and its happening on the globe.

Is that better Neal?

Dread Knot

03-18-14, 10:03 AM

Because he was elected to be in charge of what is apparently a global superpower.

Obama is in charge of China now? :o

About the only reason I can think of that they're still underwriting our debt.

Tribesman

03-18-14, 10:14 AM

Obama is in charge of China now? :o

About the only reason I can think of that they're still underwriting our debt.

I said "a" global superpower not " the".

As for debt why not take a leaf out of putins book. Default then hope that China and Russia invade godknowswhereistan in a futile expensive war then you can drill for all your fracking worth and sell it off at the resulting inflated prices their actions will cause.:hmmm:

Dread Knot

03-18-14, 10:21 AM

then you can drill for all your fracking worth and sell it off at the resulting inflated prices their actions will cause.:hmmm:

MMMM. More drinking water that tastes like petroleum. I better stock up on Diet Cola bottled in Iceland.

03-18-14, 10:39 AM

This is an telephone interview with Jörg Baberowski, professor for Easteuropean history, about the ignorance the West shows regarding the importance of identity and its historic roots, the fact that Ukraine is not a state with a long history but an artificial creation founded 1991 where people did not deny their sympathy for the old empire but voted for sovereignty only in hope for better living conditions, and that Russia is not a single ethnic state as well, but multi-ethnic state where the majority of people still identifies itself with the former empirial spirit.
Stop being technician.
This bull can fool some but is beside the point of current situation.
So you think Ukraine should not be member of EU or NATO for certain reasons , thats cool.... but why dig this crap.
Right...there must be logical elegant ???? explanation to stay out of this lol

Schroeder

03-18-14, 10:44 AM

Well I know this is complicated and can be difficult to grasp.
But what it has to do with your nation and why your president has to open his yap is sort of because your nation and your president stood as a guarantor to Ukraine for its sovereignty and territorial integrity.
Now I know it is difficult to penetrate that partisan murk some people live in, but the situation your nation and your president finds itself in regarding Ukraine is a legacy of St. Ronnie thinking he had won the cold war and had brought freedom independence sovereignty and safety to all those nations suffering under Russian occupation....like for example errrr....Ukraine:yep:

See, complicated stuff isn't it, or is it really really simple:hmmm:
May I ask why this received an infraction?:shifty:

Skybird

03-18-14, 11:31 AM

Stop being technician.
This bull can fool some but is beside the point of current situation.
So you think Ukraine should not be member of EU or NATO for certain reasons , thats cool.... but why dig this crap.
Right...there must be logical elegant ???? explanation to stay out of this lol
:nope:

If his reasonable and valid arguments are too big for you too understand because your mind is too small, than do not attack him for your own failure and intellectual smallness, but have the decency to try harder to become bigger yourself so that you can understand it. It's not as if what he says needs a rocket scientist to understand.

:down:

Any more volunteers for demonstrating right that arrogance by Westerners that somewhere above I so bitterly complained about...?

Did you even understand this "dig up crap", as you called it, do you speak German...? :stare:

Sailor Steve

03-18-14, 11:41 AM

When people stop discussing the issue and start insulting each other, maybe it's time to step back and re-evaluate their reasons for posting in the first place.

03-18-14, 11:47 AM

If his reasonable and valid arguments are too big for you too understand because your mind is too small, than do not attack him for your own failure and intellectual smallness, but have the decency to try harder to become bigger yourself so that you can understand it. It's not as if what he says needs a rocket scientist to understand.

Any more volunteers for demonstrating right that arrogance by Westerners that somewhere above I so bitterly complained about...?

Did you even understand this "dig up crap", as you called it, do you speak German...?

It is true that Ukraine was part of Russia or Poland and many have families in Russia or spread in between eastern or parts or western part of the country.
The historical facts are mostly true . yet they have very strong sense of self definition as Ukrainians.
Vary match due to the history mentioned , some of it very bitter and some ugly...but that is another story.

Not everyone who is for independent Ukraine is some crazy nationalist.

BossMark

03-18-14, 11:59 AM

Its not looking good at the moment with a Ukrainian soldier being killed :nope:

Betonov

03-18-14, 12:57 PM

The watercooler chat at work shows a strong support for Putin. But a strong anti US bias is present for years now.

A co-worker, born in Moldova, then USSR, has a strong opinion the entire situation was engineered by the US, but ht backfired at them. He also stated: Putin has to be tough so Russia doesnt fall into a kleptocracy like Slovenia.

This is an opinion of others, not me. I dont have an opinion. Too many ifs an speculations. I just wish we wouldnt happily wag our tails when Obama whistles. Especialy when its related to an important trading partner

Wolferz

03-18-14, 01:02 PM

...that he needs to keep out of other people's doors before the door gets slammed on said proboscis.

Vladimir is just putin more territory on the Russian map.
Not like our government hasn't been doing something similar.

Just my humble opinion.

Welcome to the "Resource War":shifty:

Skybird

03-18-14, 01:11 PM

When people stop discussing the issue and start insulting each other, maybe it's time to step back and re-evaluate their reasons for posting in the first place.
Same is true for not differentiating between cause and effect, action and adequate reaction.

The same man, Prof. Baberowski, in a brief TV interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2J77x3mFUs

"History is a science that gives answers to questions of the present, nothing else. Because we cannot go back into the past - it is gone. And since the past is gone, it cannot be our subject, but our subject are those items from the past that survived and made it into our present. But they are only that, because we ask questions about them. (...) History is a science of/about the present."

One cannot correctly assess the Ukrainian situation when ignoring the past. The situation now is a relic of the past, a consequence of the past. The meaning of it we can only correctly assess when we use what we find in the present - the situaton of the status quo - for asking what these relics have meant in the past time when they emerged.

To ignore that context in time, means to miss reality and any matching ways to deal with the present, by lightyears. And that is what happens in the West. We do not go back before 1991, and that is a bad mistake.

This has been done many times especially by Western powers in the Middle East. Many artificial states and construction that were created with ink on maps, but that ignored cultural and ethnic realities on the ground, empotions and sentuiments and mentalities of the people living together, or not together. The many disasters of the ME's rcent history of the past 20 years or so, are oftehn caused or massively helped by this ignorance for the co ntexts I just described. We did the same mistake in Bosnia.Herzegowina, and kosovo. We did it again when supporting that indepedence for the Ukraine as it was in 1991 - we shouldn't have done that. The problems we face now, could have been forseen.

Moldavia will become a hot issue sooner or later, too. And there again I tell the West: stay out of that, it is not our party, we have no horse in that race.

What we must defend at all cost and no matter what, is the three Baltic states (who hold not insignificant Russian communities as well), and of course Poland, all of them being NATO members. It is here where we must draw a red line and hack off any Russian boot stepping beyond that line. If we question the necessity to defend these states at all cost and even militarily in a full war, then NATO can farewell itself into history and Europe immediately will stop playing any role on the world stage any longer - it already is in rapid decline in global importance anyway.

But Ukraine and Moldavia - not our playground, I say, and nothing there for us to win than unneeded conflict with Russia that holds no rewards and no prizes to win.

Oberon

03-18-14, 01:25 PM

May I ask why this received an infraction?:shifty:

"Trolling" apparently.

The watercooler chat at work shows a strong support for Putin. But a strong anti US bias is present for years now.

A co-worker, born in Moldova, then USSR, has a strong opinion the entire situation was engineered by the US, but ht backfired at them. He also stated: Putin has to be tough so Russia doesnt fall into a kleptocracy like Slovenia.

This is an opinion of others, not me. I dont have an opinion. Too many ifs an speculations. I just wish we wouldnt happily wag our tails when Obama whistles. Especialy when its related to an important trading partner

There's a lot of very eager Trans-dneisterians wanting to leave Moldova for Russia, so that could be the next move for Russia, before the move on Belarus. Belarus will be easier than the Ukraine because the EU has blacklisted the leader of Belarus, and Russia itself is not on best terms with him, so a little uprising which Russia could support and exploit would get them back in the camp easily enough.

03-18-14, 02:17 PM

One cannot correctly assess the Ukrainian situation when ignoring the past. The situation now is a relic of the past, a consequence of the past. The meaning of it we can only correctly assess when we use what we find in the present - the situaton of the status quo - for asking what these relics have meant in the past time when they emerged Weather Ukraine is worth the conflict is one thing yet the historical explanation is nonsense.
History actually speaks volumes against you...well geopolitically maybe not...
Fact is that Ukraine was screwed by Europe's eastern/central powers throughout the history hence the demographic mess of all others.
That is ...it was under occupation or influence of those powers so yes again ....you have point....but it is more important what the Ukrainians make of it all in the present.
No???

BW:)
Is there some historical cultural blood bond between Poland and Germany ?

Tribesman

03-18-14, 02:38 PM

May I ask why this received an infraction?:shifty:
Too sarcastic apparently.

"Trolling" apparently.

"apparently":03:

When people stop discussing the issue and start insulting each other, maybe it's time to step back and re-evaluate their reasons for posting in the first place
Errrrrr....it replied to a post that was made on the issue, it discussed the points raised in the post.
So at what point in your mind does a post which addresses the issue and addresses the points made in a post about the issue suddenly magicly transform into a personal insult which does not address the issue and does not address the points made in relation to the issue?

Jimbuna

03-18-14, 02:50 PM

Too sarcastic apparently.

"apparently":03:

Errrrrr....it replied to a post that was made on the issue, it discussed the points raised in the post.
So at what point in your mind does a post which addresses the issue and addresses the points made in a post about the issue suddenly magicly transform into a personal insult which does not address the issue and does not address the points made in relation to the issue?

I'm not sure Steve (and I have discussed his response with him) was referring to you or in fact any post of yours.

If you have an issue with Neal please take it to PM.

Jimbuna

03-18-14, 02:54 PM

Back OT...Ukraine officer 'killed in Crimea'

It shouldn't take many more such events to escalate into a fully fledged armed conflict, either locally or regionally.

Ukraine's military says an officer has been killed in an attack on a base in Crimea, the first such death since pro-Russia forces took control in February.

Ukraine has now authorised its troops to fire in self defence.

The attack came shortly after Russian President Vladimir Putin and the leaders of Crimea signed a bill to absorb the peninsula into Russia.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26637296

Sailor Steve

03-18-14, 02:58 PM

Errrrrr....it replied to a post that was made on the issue, it discussed the points raised in the post.
My response was to the post directly above mine and the one it responded to. It had nothing to do with you. From their further posts it looks like they got the message.

Skybird

03-18-14, 03:34 PM

Weather Ukraine is worth the conflict is one thing yet the historical explanation is nonsense.
History actually speaks volumes against you...well geopolitically maybe not...
Fact is that Ukraine was screwed by Europe's eastern/central powers throughout the history hence the demographic mess of all others.
That is ...it was under occupation or influence of those powers so yes again ....you have point....but it is more important what the Ukrainians make of it all in the present.

There is no present without a past.

03-18-14, 03:37 PM

There is no present without a past.

Got you.
Let the past flow into the future undisturbed.:haha:

Sailor Steve

03-18-14, 03:37 PM

Same is true for not differentiating between cause and effect, action and adequate reaction.
I haven't entered this discussion because I have no opinion and no answers. My comment was directed toward insult and name-calling only.

mapuc

03-18-14, 03:54 PM

I have absolutely no idea of what's going to happen next. So I ask you. Do you have some plausible scenarios, in what's going to happen?

Markus

Admiral Halsey

03-18-14, 03:58 PM

I have absolutely no idea of what's going to happen next. So I ask you. Do you have some plausible scenarios, in what's going to happen?

Markus

Best case scenario is that the US and Europe give Russia token sanctions and Putin goes no farther the annexing then Crimea. Worst case scenario is this snowballs into WW3.

Oberon

03-18-14, 04:06 PM

Best case scenario is that the US and Europe give Russia token sanctions and Putin goes no farther the annexing then Crimea. Worst case scenario is this snowballs into WW3.

I think that about covers it.

Aktungbby

03-18-14, 04:11 PM

Best case scenario is that the US and Europe give Russia token sanctions and Putin goes no farther the annexing then Crimea. Worst case scenario is this snowballs into WW3.

NAH! 'Chicken Kiev' becomes 'Chicken Bolshoi'...sorta like 'Chicken Marengo' or 'Liberty sausage'...and it will be WWIV... were already in WWIII-between the haves and the havenots:/\\!!

Dread Knot

03-18-14, 04:19 PM

Best case scenario is that the US and Europe give Russia token sanctions and Putin goes no farther the annexing then Crimea. Worst case scenario is this snowballs into WW3.

Russia doesn't need WW3. They simply send their elite divisions of Siberian cyberhackers into our swiss cheese servers and steal every American credit and debit number they can. The US economy collapses overnight while everyone is trying to remember how to use cash and count change. (assuming they have cash and change.) :D

Skybird

03-18-14, 04:23 PM

I haven't entered this discussion because I have no opinion and no answers. My comment was directed toward insult and name-calling only.
And in case you aimed that at me (and I think it was due to your timing), I reject to accept that claim of yours. I pointed out the nature of a reply I got, and that quality of that reply was what it was. If it is considered "unpolite" to do so, then all communication has become pointless, and self-censorship has become a mandatory duty.

And my reply was tame, considering the post that triggered it. Originally I had written a much sharper one, and changed it, and changed that result once again. I still think I should have left the original one in place. It was adequate.

Admiral Halsey

03-18-14, 04:49 PM

Russia doesn't need WW3. They simply send their elite divisions of Siberian cyberhackers into our swiss cheese servers and steal every American credit and debit number they can. The US economy collapses overnight while everyone is trying to remember how to use cash and count change. (assuming they have cash and change.) :D

Is it bad that I actually think this is somewhat plausible? I don't even remember the last time i've seen someone use cash and change. In fact i'm wondering if i'm the only person who doesn't even use credit cards in the country at this point.

Skybird

03-18-14, 04:53 PM

I have absolutely no idea of what's going to happen next. So I ask you. Do you have some plausible scenarios, in what's going to happen?

Markus

It depends on how the riots in the eastern provinces continue. If the worst escalation happens, the Ukraine sooner or later will get split, with the East either declaring independence from Kiew, or becoming Russia, too. In this case, the Western part would turn EU, little doubt. If the Ukraine remains in one piece as it is now, best advise would be to not associate it with the EU, but leave it neutral and maintaining relations to both Russia and the EU. But NATO moving into the Ukraine I think will once again a massive Russian response.

Moldavia also is uncertain, the conflict there is cooking on low flames since long, but is starting to boil, too. It could end in violent secession, possibly.

Beyond that, I think the unrest will not leave this theatre Ukraine/Moldavia. Speculations about Russia next trying to bring back the Baltic states, to put it this way, I currently do not really take serious. A Russian intervention there or in Poland I rule out.

Sevastopol will not become a NATO harbour sooner or later, obviously. I doubt that Russia will sit still if other parts of the Ukraine are tried to be turned into NATO airbases. Merkel tries to keep European economic pressure low, and today the French foreign minister being called back by her, leaves little doubt that it will be difficult to mount any pressure against Russia against the Germans. I will not criticise the wisdom in that pragmatism.

Dread Knot

03-18-14, 04:58 PM

Is it bad that I actually think this is somewhat plausible? I don't even remember the last time i've seen someone use cash and change. In fact i'm wondering if i'm the only person who doesn't even use credit cards in the country at this point.

Everytime I'm in a Starbucks, I do wonder myself when the barista looks a bit fazed when the cash hits the counter.

03-18-14, 05:02 PM

And my reply was tame, considering the post that triggered it. Originally I had written a much sharper one, and changed it, and changed that result once again. I still think I should have left the original one in place. It was adequate. That would be more interesting...

I have absolutely no idea of what's going to happen next. So I ask you. Do you have some plausible scenarios, in what's going to happen?

Markus Probably not much.
No need to dig foxholes.... yet. :haha:

Jimbuna

03-18-14, 05:08 PM

And in case you aimed that at me (and I think it was due to your timing), I reject to accept that claim of yours. I pointed out the nature of a reply I got, and that quality of that reply was what it was. If it is considered "unpolite" to do so, then all communication has become pointless, and self-censorship has become a mandatory duty.

And my reply was tame, considering the post that triggered it. Originally I had written a much sharper one, and changed it, and changed that result once again. I still think I should have left the original one in place. It was adequate.

Cool heads from EVERYONE if you please, this is a discussion forum NOT the UN Security Council.

Oberon

03-18-14, 05:08 PM

Intel map
http://occupiedcrimea.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/defeat-snatched-from-jaws-of-victory.html

mapuc

03-18-14, 05:49 PM

First thank you for your view on how it could develop.

Here's a little story from a Danish newspaper

The U.S. has plans to conduct a military exercise along with the Baltic states. They will through this exercise send two important signals.

1 The fact that they stand by their responsibilities and will defend the NATO countries that borders with Russia or Ukraine

2 The fact that Russia should know that the United States is present in their vicinity or backyard.

The article doesn't say anything about how many soldiers, planes or ship USA is going to send to this exercise.

Markus

Kptlt. Neuerburg

03-18-14, 06:30 PM

Russia doesn't need WW3. They simply send their elite divisions of Siberian cyberhackers into our swiss cheese servers and steal every American credit and debit number they can. The US economy collapses overnight while everyone is trying to remember how to use cash and count change. (assuming they have cash and change.) :D Thing about this is, it will outrage our Chinese overlords and since the US economy is linked to the rest of the world it would throw the whole world and the Russians along with it into some time between the Dark Ages and the Stone Age. :doh:

Oberon

03-19-14, 04:53 AM

Looks like Japan will probably ally with the Ukraine in the near future:
http://en.rocketnews24.com/2014/03/16/japanese-netizens-put-reality-on-hold-for-a-moment-fall-in-love-with-new-attorney-general-of-crimea/

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/people/natalia-poklonskaya

http://asset-6.soup.io/asset/7002/4120_657a.jpeg

Ah, Japan, you're so wierd, and yet so funny. :yep: :up:

Jimbuna

03-19-14, 10:22 AM

Pro-Russians seize Sevastopol Ukrainian naval base

Pro-Russian activists have taken control of the HQ of Ukraine's navy in the Crimean city of Sevastopol.

Ukrainian navy chief Serhiy Hayduk has reportedly been detained and the Russian flag is flying over the base. Many Ukrainian personnel have left.

On Tuesday, Crimean leaders signed a treaty with Moscow absorbing the peninsula into Russia.

That followed Sunday's referendum approving Crimea's split from Ukraine - a vote that has been widely condemned.

So what happened to the 21st March deadline allowing Ukrainian personnel the chance to leave?

03-19-14, 11:20 AM

So the Russian pride is finally restored.
If there is any opposition in Russia then most likely will be shut for good now.
Erdogan the second is here.

Putin’s red lines go way beyond Crimea
The Russian president’s speech was a historic reckoning - and a warning to Western leaders.

By Anshel Pfeffer (http://www.haaretz.com/misc/writers/anshel-pfeffer-1.292) | Mar. 19, 2014 | 12:41 PM

When the Kremlin announced Russia’s recognition of Crimea (http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.580468) as an independent state on Monday night, a few still deluded themselves that President Vladimir Putin would make do with that and not go the final mile. Putin didn’t allow that delusion to last for long. In a historic speech on Tuesday, before both houses of the Duma, surrounded by Russian flags with a stone two-headed eagle soaring above him, he re-launched the east bloc-west bloc showdown.
There were two parts to his 46-minute speech, which was disrupted by 32 ovations. In the first, Putin spoke to the hearts of the Russian people. He reminisced on the birth of a nation, right there in the Crimean peninsula, the brave battles of the 19th century and the oppression of the Soviet era, culminating in that fateful night when the USSR disintegrated in 1991 and entire swathes of the homeland were torn away. “The Russian nation became one of the biggest, if not the biggest ethnic group in the world to be divided by borders.” What has taken place in Crimea was not an invasion, occupation or annexation, but simple justice of restoring a child to its mother, he said. Later, when he joined the cheering crowds in Red Square, Putin was feted as “collector of Russian lands.”
But in the second part of the speech, he spread his net much wider. It was a detailed reckoning with the Western powers led by the United States, of 23 years of insults that Russia was forced to endure due to its weakness. He pilloried a generation of American and European leaders for interfering in Russia’s, and Ukraine’s, internal affairs, for the aggression of NATO and the European Union and their attempts to undermine the Arab regimes as well. He repeatedly called the West “our partners” with little attempt to conceal any sarcasm. Annexing Crimea isn’t just fixing a historical injustice. Putin made clear he was teaching the West a lesson it should never forget. He presented the ideal regional balance from his point of view; the original post-Soviet plan – “the Commonwealth of Independent States… a single currency, a single economic space, joint armed forces.”
One moment Putin was reassuring that Russia has no intention of attacking Ukraine (http://www.haaretz.com/misc/tags/Ukraine-1.575856)and the next he was saying the invasion of Crimea was justified due to the persecution of ethnic Russians, just as they are being persecuted now in other Ukrainian cities, including “Kiev, the mother of all Russian cities.” And no one abandons their mother. Russia and Ukraine are “one nation” he made clear - another reassurance to his southern neighbors.
Putin is no great orator, certainly not in the league of Barack Obama, who wasn’t mentioned in the speech. But to borrow a term that Obama has long ago regretted using, Putin laid out his red lines on Tuesday. No to any other neighbors joining NATO (a message that sent shivers through the three Baltic states that are already members of the alliance). No to association agreements with the European Union. And no to any attempts by neighboring governments to establish a national narrative at the expense of Russian-speaking minorities. And needless to say, unlike Obama, Putin has already proven he has no compunction about punishing those who cross his red lines.
The repercussions of Crimea’s annexation will also be felt in the Middle East. The Russian Navy will now enjoy unlimited use of Sevastopol Port on the Black Sea (unlike the previous situation under the Ukraine-Russia agreement which set limits on levels of force). This will provide a boost to Defense Minister Sergey Shoygu’s plans to expand operations in the Mediterranean. Putin’s uncompromising persistence over Crimea is a harbinger of how he will now confront any Western attempt to intervene in Syria, against his ally, Bashar Assad.
Putin’s claims that there are nefarious designs against countries such as Iran should also serve as a warning to those Israeli leaders who still harbor hopes of attacking Iran’s nuclear installations.
For the leaders of the West, those who have so far responded to the conquest of Crimea by issuing a short list of senior Russian officials, not necessarily those closest to the Kremlin, whose assets will be frozen, Putin has a very clear message. This is no longer a case of local or passing strife. The Russian soldiers will not pull back, as they did from Georgia in 2008. This crisis has no diplomatic solution. The only alternative Putin is offering the West is accepting his red lines.
It is still far from clear whether the governments of Britain and Germany, Italy and France, are capable of contemplating losing billions from placing real sanctions on Russia, freezing the oligarchs’ assets, tearing up contracts and cutting themselves off from the natural gas pipeline. Obama certainly can’t force them to do so. But even if they surprise themselves by coming up with such sanctions, Putin has cut off his own retreat route. He can’t cross back over his own red lines.

...

Dread Knot

03-19-14, 11:29 AM

Looks like Japan will probably ally with the Ukraine in the near future:
http://en.rocketnews24.com/2014/03/16/japanese-netizens-put-reality-on-hold-for-a-moment-fall-in-love-with-new-attorney-general-of-crimea/

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/people/natalia-poklonskaya

Ah, Japan, you're so wierd, and yet so funny. :yep: :up:

Crimean girls really knock me out. They leave the West behind.

The halo goes a bit far though.

http://i.imgur.com/i9DrSbm.jpg

Oberon

03-19-14, 01:07 PM

gg, nextmap

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/19/us-russia-estonia-idUSBREA2I1J620140319

Jimbuna

03-19-14, 01:27 PM

03-19-14, 02:52 PM

If the wests plan to isolate Russia from most of the rest of the world succeeds, that may only stregthen the resolve of Putin and put many Russians in the frame of mind to support their leader.

I doubt anyone knows for sure how yhis will all end...least of all Putin.

Possibly...
Russian GDP which is mostly natural resources is controlled by very few oligarchs.
Putin's foreign policy being bad for business as it is might make them very unhappy.
So who knows what might happen.

Alex

03-19-14, 03:58 PM

I'd like to take the opportunity to make a little compliment now, if you please.
And this one will be directed to the good Oberon. Actually, I can't find the words, but...
And when it comes to news, I have also noticed an east/west split in regards to how the news regards the current Ukrainian regime, which is why I've been sampling news from both. You'll notice in this thread that I've been posting stories from both the BBC and Russia Today, which both have their own slants on the story.
Basically : whatever you read and watch, you always need to take everything with a pinch of salt, because there's propaganda on every side, period.
Way to appreciate this point of view, definitely a very good way to make your opinion on any matter, really. :)
http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/803464711.jpg
Obe's wife at work, I suppose :D
(with all due respect to you Oberon, I'm certainly not trying to upset you in any way actually)
This guy is a good one, you know. :smug:

So, taking Oberon as an example :), here's me giving you all open-minded people - I don't view anyone in here as being chauvinistic, biased or over-patriotic in the very least - a helping hand there, just so everyone can form his own independent judgement following so much time spent eating Western propaganda - according to which there are only 2 things in the world : the West, and the wrong.

This article (of which I quoted parts - a quote a big long, sorry, but I couldn't quote a smaller part of it to be fair, really) is the one of Dr. Kevin Barrett, a Ph.D. Arabist-Islamologist, one of America's best-known critics of the War on Terror. :)
http://b8.eu.icdn.ru/c/compdrag/8/36660368UjR.jpg
http://b8.eu.icdn.ru/c/compdrag/1/36660371wts.jpgWanna read the full article ? Click here (http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/03/19/355259/putin-puts-fear-of-god-in-nwo/). ;)

Oberon

03-19-14, 04:05 PM

Merci beaucoup, Alex. :shucks: The wife says that the money is in the post. :03: :haha:

I did find, a short while ago, a new source for information from the Ukraine which is based more around factual gathering than analysis, and takes information from a widespread amount of sources from Associated Press to Al Jazerra to Pravda, all gathered together in once place.

The Ukrainian news update reddit thread:
http://www.reddit.com/live/3rgnbke2rai6hen7ciytwcxadi?t=t

In an aside ponderance, I do wonder, with the age of crowd-sourced information whether the news organisations need to sit up and take note of such efforts that might one day overshadow their own presentations.

August

03-19-14, 04:12 PM

Dr. Kevin Barrett, a Ph.D. Arabist-Islamologist, one of America's best-known critics of the War on Terror.

Never heard of him and what the heck is an "Arabist-Islamologist"?

Oberon

03-19-14, 04:15 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Barrett

Holder of some...interesting beliefs...

Skybird

03-19-14, 04:37 PM

http://amnesty.org/en/news/oleksandr-panteleymonov-first-channel-attack-2014-03-19

Ukrainian "democrats" from the fascist Svoboda party visited the chief of an Ukrainian TV broadcaster, beat him, intimidated him, and forced him to write his own resignation. Among the attacks was the chief of the Svoboda party, which maintains close ties to German Nazi party NPD and other European Nazi factions (I linked a news story on that earlier).

This is the kind of thugs that currently holds several key posts in the government and which is greeted by the West as the legal representation of the ukrainian people, and democratic government.

An opposition or interim government that tolerates such scum in its middle, does not deserve any sympathy or aid from the West. But those current leaders not being Svoboda members, all too often have dubious links to organised crime and suspicious oligarchs themselves. And that is the kind of people the West now wants to support and shakes hand with. Unbelievable.

I found three videos of the incident at youtube, all of them with German subtitles only. I wonder why that is, do English media boycot this, does it blast precious illusions? Under Tymochenko, reporters also were thrown into prison, or were intimidated with that threat, while she filled her pockets. But the West still celebrates her as an icon of democratic opposition? How blind are we here in the West?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyssVngLO-U

Video becomes really interesting somewhere around the middle.

The cream on top of it: the Svoboda chief also is head of the Ukrainian commission for free speech and free media. :doh:

You now can imagine how democratical and free any decisions and elections in the Ukrainian parliament will go along.

The TV man was hijacked and held prisoner for several hours after these scenes. He said later he had been seriously beaten up while being held in a secret place. I assume he feared for his life. He no longer works for that channel.

BTW, "Svoboda" means "freedom".

Freedom in fascist understanding.

No matter whether German or Italian, British or American, Ukrainian or Israeli (yes, there are Israeli fascists!) - Nazis belong to the scum of the Earth. But rarely are they so stupid like on this video - filming their heroic deeds themselves and let the world know what scum they are.

Or Svoboda simply gives sh!t for Western opinion, and only wanted to intimidate Ukrainian critics of their grab for power. And this is the place the EU is eager to sink billions of Euros into. :yeah: Super!

TarJak

03-19-14, 04:44 PM

Never heard of him and what the heck is an "Arabist-Islamologist"?
Seems to be some form of wife beating racist. Allegedly.

Tribesman

03-19-14, 04:45 PM

Never heard of him and what the heck is an "Arabist-Islamologist"?
Well the language in the article is a bit of a giveaway, the source is an even bigger one.

So just another crazy kook who has this weird neo Nazi conspiracy thing about jews running the world and the ever lasting ever present global conspiracy of the NWO:rotfl2:
All delivered courtesy of the mad mullahs running the fundamentalist theocracy in Tehran.

XabbaRus

03-19-14, 04:50 PM

The way I see it Putin has what he has wanted The Crimea. He has no interest in the Baltic States no matter how much they bleat. He's well aware of the NATO treaty. So the Ukraine should be kept neutral. Out of EU and out of NATO. By an agreement NATO should never have expanded to Russia's border. I can see why Russia would be upset should NATO take on The Ukraine. You see while I don't agree how Putin had gone about things he and Russia do have some valid grievences. Could you imagine how the US would react if an exercise was held with Cuba in the gulf?

Skybird

03-19-14, 05:04 PM

"Merkel holding things" - a series of carricatures/edited photos. This one being the best, with Putin edited into the pic.

http://p5.focus.de/img/incoming/origs3702085/65884396-w1280-h960-q72-p4/Merkel3.jpg

Sailor Steve

03-19-14, 05:46 PM

Basically : whatever you read and watch, you always need to take everything with a pinch of salt, because there's propaganda on every side, period.
Unless I miss what you're trying to say, this seems to be a point you make to others but avoid yourself.

This article
The point I take is that this gentleman (and you yourself) advises everyone to see American and European propaganda (which I don't deny exists) while ignoring that this very article is propaganda of the strongest sort. The author talks about Putin standing up to "western aggression...not only in the Ukraine...". He goes on to include Syria and Iran, which are a different subject, and there he does have an argument, but Ukraine? Russia has crossed the borders of a sovereign nation and imposed what is tantamount to martial law. What does "western aggression have to do with that? Is Putin protecing Ukraine from America? The Ukrainians don't seem to think so. XabbaRus makes a good point about our reaction if Russia held exercises in the Gulf of Mexico, but I would liken Russia's actions in the Ukraine to the US invading Mexico over our current border complaints.

So Alex, you warn us against swallowing certain propaganda, and rightly so, but you then seem to accept the opposite propaganda as Gospel Truth, and push it on us without questioning your own cherished beliefs. That "pinch of salt" works both ways.

nikimcbee

03-19-14, 10:12 PM

Tribesman

03-20-14, 02:07 AM

meh,
Enjoy the Crimea, please stop there.

Meh enjoy the Sudetenland, please stop there.

Now you wouldn't be one of the people who drew negative comparisons with Chamberlain in the past would you?:hmmm:

Oberon

03-20-14, 06:46 AM

I must admit, I have kind of been hoping that there would be a big conference with Germany, UK, Russia and the US in Munich, but sadly they seem to be avoiding that place for some reason... :nope:

Jimbuna

03-20-14, 07:03 AM

Well it certainly won't happen at what is now going to be called the G7 either.

Skybird

03-20-14, 07:13 AM

The next time the bamster threatens Putin/Russia with [insert threat here], if I were a Russian politician:D, I'd say something along the lines; "We were ready to negotiate, but your president was busy at the time."

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1998132-barack-obama-bracket-grading-the-presidents-picks-for-the-2014-ncaa-tournament

meh,
Enjoy the Crimea, please stop there.

If the current helplessness and cluelessness of the West shows one thing, then it is that the West has lost its ability to think in terms of "Realpolitik". Dealing with states and anticipating their actions on the basis of their real interests, their real spheres of influence, their real vital and non-negotiable red lines. The term "Realpolitik" has become a foul word, it is used in talkshows to defame unwanted opinions and reminders of critics about unwelcomed facts and realities, instead one wallows in sentimental sweet-talking about how nice it is to reasonably talk as if no collision of interest were there and all states were just one happy family with same interests. All conflicts and all dissenting views that violate the collectively demanded "majority consensus" get ignored and either defined as being symptoms of mental illness or social irresponsibility, or as simply being non-existent. Over the years, also in this forum, when I mentioned the need for more Realpolitik, the term was returned sometimes as an offence, a derogatory defamation, a way of ridiculing an opinion or assessment the other happened to disagree with. And this happens all the time in the media as well, especially when calling back to mind some facts that question the canon of ordered views and opinions as demanded by the EU, or when questioning the socialist dogma and calculating that economically it cannot be maintained much longer. Realpolitik, we hear, is a term that guys like Bismarck Hitler or Stalin thought in, and it is a thing of the past, of the 19th and 20th century, it is so much out of date and not en vogue, hell, how could one dare to think in terms of Realpolitik?

Well, Putin send us the bill for our stupidity. Now we turn stubborn even more, and refuse to accept the lesson. Instead, we should be thankful in the meaning of that he shows us where we have gone fundamentally wrong, so that we would have the opportunity to correct our course. But no, that would mean to admit that we have gone wrong indeed, and so it is better to carry on with the self-deception.

Two lessons are to be learned. First, our militaries need to be brought back into better shape, especially in Europe. Second, we need to re-learn to think in terms of Realpolitik, and to see Russian vital interests from the Russians' point of view, not ours. Demonising Putin and thinking it all would be better with Russia if Putin would not be in command, leads us nowhere. We also have to see that the Russian hefty reaction to the events in the Ukraine, although a reaction that has been prepared, is due to the many bad experiences Russia has had with the West since 1989. The russians were promised by the Germans that Eastgermany would stay demilitarised. The Russians were promised by the Americans that NATO would not move into Poland and the Baltic states and would not crawl upon Russia national borders. The Russians were told the EU would not try to creep into the Balkans and the territories of now Ukraine, Belarus.

We betrayed them every time. And now we wonder that they have learned their lessons and play tough over Georgia, Iran, Syria, Crimea, Moldavia? What did we expect, having cheated them that often and at their massive strategic cost?
All that is not about sympathy for the Russians, or Putin. It's about Realpolitik.

I doubt they are too impressed with their growing isolation, instead I assume they feel quite comfortable in that role, for Russia since centuries thinks of itself as a power that can stay autark and alone all with itself, indicating the world that it is strong enough that it does not need them. This view has always been present in Russia's self-definition, but has found an additional reviving boost when Putin took over from - extremely weak - Yeltzin.

We are lucky that we only deal with Putin, not with a guy like Stalin, Krushchev (whom we have to thank for today's Crimea crisis, btw), or some of the ancient Tsars. The demonisation we conduct regarding Putin, borders hilariousness. Russia and the world could have had it worse. Much worse. On the determination that Putin shows, I recommend this: a strong dose of "Realpolitik" - in how we deal with him, and how we interpret his determination and anticipate to Russia's next actions. It'S either that - or continuing with follies and illusions that all will just boomerang against us.

Oberon

03-20-14, 07:35 AM

Bring our militaries into better shape with what money? Do we co-operate as part of a EU based military force (if America is heading towards a more isolationist approach then surely a non-NATO based European defence force is needed) or each develop a military with our own limited funds? If the latter is to take place and the EU disbanded then what is to stop an inter-European conflict?
Unfortunately, if we are going to face Russia, and consider it a threat to Eastern Europe then I think that it is inevitable that a combined European Defence Force will have to be created using the funds and resources from every EU nation. At the moment the heavy-hitters of the EU, financially, are Germany and the UK, and neither of our nations have particularly large military forces at the moment, nor are there plans for future development of them beyond the current scope.
I know this goes against everything that the Euro-sceptics believe in, but I don't think that this is something that can be conducted in a manner that the economics in the EU have been conducted until now, and if America is going to stay out of European matters in the future and we're back to a 1930s Charles Lindbergh, America First Committee style sentiment amongst the US populace then we've got to get our act together or just hand over spherical control of Europe to Russia.

Tribesman

03-20-14, 07:50 AM

If the current helplessness and cluelessness of the West shows one thing, then it is that the West has lost its ability to think in terms of "Realpolitik". Dealing with states and anticipating their actions on the basis of their real interests, their real spheres of influence, their real vital and non-negotiable red lines. The term "Realpolitik" has become a foul word, it is used in talkshows to defame unwanted opinions and reminders of critics about unwelcomed facts and realities, instead one wallows in sentimental sweet-talking about how nice it is to reasonably talk as if no collision of interest were there and all states were just one happy family with same interests. All conflicts and all dissenting views that violate the collectively demanded "majority consensus" get ignored and either defined as being symptoms of mental illness or social irresponsibility, or as simply being non-existent. Over the years, also in this forum, when I mentioned the need for more Realpolitik, the term was returned sometimes as an offence, a derogatory defamation, a way of ridiculing an opinion or assessment the other happened to disagree with. And this happens all the time in the media as well, especially when calling back to mind some facts that question the canon of ordered views and opinions as demanded by the EU, or when questioning the socialist dogma and calculating that economically it cannot be maintained much longer. Realpolitik, we hear, is a term that guys like Bismarck Hitler or Stalin thought in, and it is a thing of the past, of the 19th and 20th century, it is so much out of date and not en vogue, hell, how could one dare to think in terms of Realpolitik?

I think the problem you face with peoples reception of your "realpolitik" is the completely contradictory avenues you take, which you reverse on a whim, or as you adopt a new ideologogy which you see as the latest ultimate truth you have read about, Egypt being a prime example.
Nasty dictator, no friend of the west, creeping islamification, persecution of Christians, the west really needs to wake up and do something about this...fast forward to all hail the new dictator who is the same as the old dictator and the west had better not do anything about this.

Two lessons are to be learned. First, our militaries need to be brought back into better shape, especially in Europe.
Now I seem to remember an individual complaining about military spending in Europe and how European countries were wasting their money on weapons that they couldn't possibly need. That wouldn't have been you would it?:hmmm:

Tchocky

03-20-14, 08:11 AM

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2014/03/vladimir_putin_s_ukraine_invasion_how_to_stop_the_ russian_president_through.html

Fred Kaplan.

The things that President Obama and the European Union have done—relatively mild sanctions, the exclusion of Russia from an upcoming G-7 (formerly G-8) meeting, the shoring up of defenses in Poland and the Baltic nations, and presumably more actions of this sort to come—are proportional steps worth taking.

But no one should suffer the illusion that any of this will prod Putin to send the troops in Crimea home (most of them were already stationed there) or give the land back to Ukraine. To pretend that it might—as some of Obama’s rhetoric about “costs” and “consequences” has implied—works only to Putin’s benefit; it makes him seem stronger (he’s withstood the American sanctions!) than he really is.

Skybird

03-20-14, 08:27 AM

Bring our militaries into better shape with what money?
Exactly!

The dilemma is that we want to play a bigger role and claim to be a bigger geostrategic actor, than we can afford.

When you ask - ther correct, needed and essential - question "With what money", one should not only ask that regarding military, but also regarding the ongoing project of the EU to grow, to expand, to become bigger, to include more. There, nobody asks "with what money". Which is strange. There are already more Eu members that cost more money than they give in return. Many members are no strengthening of the union, but a weakening of the union. But still, the EU wants more. Some even want it to include North Africa, and the Middle East. Some very daring minds even claim the Russia one day should become EU member. Then Europe will share borders with China and Japan. They want Turkey in, if only there would not be Erdoghan. Then we share borders with some real warzones. "With what money"? I would add: "with what determination to confront these challenges"?

Let'S face it, the EUcrats want more - for their personal glory - than what European states can afford. And much of the anger about Russia is owed to the fact that the EU wanted to claim Ukraine for itself, a plot now spoiled by the Russians.

Do we co-operate as part of a EU based military force (if America is heading towards a more isolationist approach then surely a non-NATO based European defence force is needed) or each develop a military with our own limited funds? If the latter is to take place and the EU disbanded then what is to stop an inter-European conflict?

NATO must understand to be a defence aliance of a certain specified geographical region. Europe must regain the ability to make any Russian attack so costly that it is not worth it. this ability we should seek without needing america, which is reorienting to the Pacific. We cannot only meet the Russians in a believable fashion if we meet them from a popsition of strtength, and not this pathetic weakness we currently show. We also need to understand that military operations outside the alliance'S territories, should have no place on the agenda. America tried to turn NATO into a global intervention force. Which was a huge and very costly mistake. A lot has been said in past years on that NATO has lost its identity, has no purpose, lost its reaosn to exist. If anyone needed a reminder, Yugoslavia could have been it - our reasons to attack Yugoslavia were misled, the pit is that we needed the Americans again to deal with this issue on our own continent. . If anyone missed that lesson, the Crimea today should serve as a sufficient reminder now for why we need NATO. And it miust be a believable threat if it is to intimidate any aggressor so that he will not attack a NAOT member. But we also must prevent overstretching, and we should not want to raise unneeded trohbels and conflciuts with Russia by violating their natural, vital interests - by creeping onto their borders again, for example. What the Russians do in yria, is Realpoltik in poure form. I have no illusions about thgeir sympoatyh for Assad and the terror he spills out, thery do not like it. But they want that naval base, and want to maintain this thorn in NATO's flank. For that strategic interest, they take the horror into account. It's not nice, but it is how the world runs. States have no morals. States have interests.

Unfortunately, if we are going to face Russia, and consider it a threat to Eastern Europe then I think that it is inevitable that a combined European Defence Force will have to be created using the funds and resources from every EU nation. At the moment the heavy-hitters of the EU, financially, are Germany and the UK, and neither of our nations have particularly large military forces at the moment, nor are there plans for future development of them beyond the current scope.

Again, we need to become more modest in our demands, both the EU and NATO. Focussing on the core business of NATO, stopping all these global missions that especially the Germans run to ease their moral conscience. As in the past the goal must n ot be to destroy Russia, but just to make any military action extremely costly for them. This is not becasue I assume the Russians are planning to militarily engage the Baltic states or Poland. I am quiote certain they don'T. But we need to add sufficient substance to our claims in order to be believable. Currently, we are only ridiculous, a bad joke that is laughed about.

So regarding the funding, parts of those funds at least must be brought up by limiting the scope of our focus. Afghanistan for example has no place there, nor any missions to Africa or elsewhere. That is not NATO's business.

We also must prove to the Russians to become more reliable partners, that do not break promises opportunistically, and cheat them. Then, in a not so near future I fear, maybe closer cooperation with the Russian military can become possible again, but only if we do not constantly try to hack away at issues that are of vital interest to them. They have had enough of us - that message we really should have gotten by now.

I know this goes against everything that the Euro-sceptics believe in, but I don't think that this is something that can be conducted in a manner that the economics in the EU have been conducted until now, and if America is going to stay out of European matters in the future and we're back to a 1930s Charles Lindbergh, America First Committee style sentiment amongst the US populace then we've got to get our act together or just hand over spherical control of Europe to Russia.
I'm split over the prospect you outlione, althogih I see the logic and reason in your argument - and by ölogioc and reason, I even agree. It's just that I know that the EU elites will try all they can to make a united defence just another tool to tighten their cedntrlaistic power and control even further. I'm trapped between hammer and anvil there.

Maybe the Swiss model can serve as an precedence. Somehow they always managed to maintain sufficient deterrances that nobody dares to really take on them, not even Hitler'S Wehrmacht. The mountains certainly helped in that, something that is true for huge parts of Norway, too. I mean a different model of an army, a militia style army, with modern stings to deliver blows to any aggressor. We have seen how inferiorly armed gangs of armed men and militias have frustrated and finally driven out "superior" armies in Afghanistan and Iraq, and for long time to come I doubt that anyone dares to try invading them again. In the end, shoulderpads are cheaper than fighters, ATGMS are cheaper than tanks - we are talking about a different military paradigm, however.

And there is the cyberwarfare component.

A difficult situation we are in. But again, we waste much moeny in poltical overstretching, why not relaocate those funds, as a provisory measure, to modernising the miliutary, while shrinking ourselves to more healthy and efendable dimensions? The EU is hopelessly overstretched, so is the American military. As Sun Tsu should have said: He who tries to defend all, will loose all.

Alex

03-20-14, 08:47 AM

Unless I miss what you're trying to say, this seems to be a point you make to others but avoid yourself.
Hi Steve,

That's fair from you to ask yourself about that.

The point I take is that this gentleman (and you yourself) advises everyone to see American and European propaganda (which I don't deny exists) while ignoring that this very article is propaganda of the strongest sort.

No, Sir. Especially NOT. First, I'd like to mention I live on the same side of the world as you do, and so I'm forced to eat and accept the same things/news as the truth. And in fact, I started my post with some rant related to the lack of neutrality of the news (coming from all sides) in order for everyone to take in consideration the fact that absolutely everything needs to be taken with that pinch of salt I'm talking about : so that article had to be considered the same way as I consider western news.
Living in the world we do, I must be honest with you, and would like to say I tend to feel sympathy for traditionalists countries still working with the one and only ultimate authority over everyone and everything, making a country able to act the fairest way towards most things and people around : God (and let me free to stay neutral here, keeping aside the way our beloved western media is doing its best to make us see a big part of the Middle East and northern Africa : that part of the world being populated only by no more than Al-Qaeda militants believing in a certain god whose only interest is to make all Muslims go for the Jihad).

As to what anyone is supposed to consider as truth and propaganda...

Russia has crossed the borders of a sovereign nation and imposed what is tantamount to martial law. What does "western aggression have to do with that? Is Putin protecing Ukraine from America? The Ukrainians don't seem to think so.

I was indeed expecting someone to react that way, but I didn't suppose you were going to be that one, Steve.
We're on the internet now, and you're free to check out the news as to what's happening in western Ukraine these days, when it comes to IMF and all, so I won't even take the trouble to speak about that actually.
I'll let you think the way you like, out of respect for yourself, just as I would towards anyone else. But accepting as truth any kind of news coming from one side, without cross-checking with news from the other side, is what any authority needs you to do, so to be able to send your youth to the abattoir on any foreign soil which you are needed to consider as the enemy so for you to end up sticking out your chest considering it a noble thing from yourself to have let your children (not talking about your own children here, Steve) leave their beloved homeland never to see it again.
Feel free to take some little time now and then to check out the news from some other sites not standing up for western values only, I'm sure you'll end up being a little bit surprised by the way the other side/"the enemy" sees the situation, and I won't say more actually.

So Alex, you warn us against swallowing certain propaganda, and rightly so, but you then seem to accept the opposite propaganda as Gospel Truth, and push it on us without questioning your own cherished beliefs. That "pinch of salt" works both ways.

That is absolutely right.
I'm not considering anything as Gospel Truth, Steve.
Speaking about the West here, as I just said : to me, most people just live everyday with a certain degree of credulity and ingenuousness making them think everything their politics/army/country's elite do gets to be done with no more than their national interest in mind.
And the only thing I'm saying here is that it is not the case all the time [I'll keep things short here, or our good Tribesman - who's a well-educated man whose opinion I value more than a bit - will react the same way once again towards myself, for the simple reason he's certainly got his mind filled with anti-racism **** to the point he doesn't even dare to keep his ears open when it comes to what kind of people is reaping the benefits of unrests happening here and there in the world].
Watching tv everyday or so, most people from the West got their brain lying down in their bathtub filled with self-righteousness, caring only about what they think themselves, just as if the West was more virtuous than any other part of the world. And you've reacted the way I expected any Western guy to while reading this kind of article I've posted above : anyone living in the West gets to be very surprised and pretty much shocked, thinking something going along the lines of "hey, wtf, wth is that, so you can find people thinking another way than we do in the West... Incredible ! How the hell is it possible, I can't believe that, that's propaganda".
I don't hold any opinion on that article myself, really : the only thing I know is that its author has got to write it trying to see things from a certain point of view which is not the West's. And since I can't pretend to know exactly where propaganda starts, personally the only thing I do is no more than trying to rise up a little bit checking news from both sides, in order to be as neutral as anyone can be, instead of doing no more than eating bbc and daily mail news everyday as if it came from the skies.

May be more than a bit OT, so I guess we better stop there or switch to PM eventually.

Sailor Steve

03-20-14, 09:05 AM

I was indeed expecting someone to react that way, but I didn't suppose you were going to be that one, Steve.
I don't accept anything as the truth, ever. As far as I'm concerned it's all propaganda until verifiable facts are shown. Russia walked into the Ukraine and the Ukraine had no choice but to let them. Russia's motives? I don't know, but Putin is a politician just like any other and he will put his own spin on things, just the same as Obama or any other world leader. They all have their own agenda, and will say just about anything to further it. Russia does have a history of taking over countries in the area, and to me this doesn't look much different. Of course I don't know what's really going on behind the scenes, but I'm betting you don't either.

The problem I have with your arguments is that you have a record of being anti-US. Perhaps you have good reason, or think you do. I do observe that your opinion of what's going on anywhere is influenced by this, and I think most here will agree that anything you say should also be taken with that "pinch of salt" because of the bias you show. That doesn't mean what you say isn't true, just that I and many others tend to see what you say as propaganda too.

This isn't meant to be a criticizm of you personally, just a statement of the reason I tend to not trust what you say, and what you quote, any more than I do Putin or Obama, or any of the rest of them.

As for PMs, I think this is very much on-topic, and you brought it up first with your claims of "propaganda". If one side of it is good enough for you to show, you can't turn around and want to take it private just because somebody disagrees with you.

Dread Knot

03-20-14, 09:16 AM

Or as the old bumper sticker used to say:

QUESTION AUTHORITY.
OH YEAH? SEZ WHO?

Sailor Steve

03-20-14, 09:17 AM

:rotfl2: :yep:

I did not know that one. :rock:

Tribesman

03-20-14, 09:17 AM

And the only thing I'm saying here is that it is not the case all the time [I'll keep things short here, or our good Tribesman - who's a well-educated man whose opinion I value more than a bit - will react the same way once again towards myself, for the simple reason he's certainly got his mind filled with anti-racism **** to the point he doesn't even dare to keep his ears open when it comes to what kind of people is reaping the benefits of unrests happening here and there in the world].

Oh dear.:nope:
I keep my ears open Alex, I don't simply accept what politicians or the media tell me .
I keep an open mind and adapt my views in relation to facts.
On the other hand a neo Nazi who believes in a global conspiracy where the jews run everything can never have an open mind on any subject as he honestly believes there is a global conspiracy where the jews run everything, and so his views on every topic in the world is coloured by his belief that there is a global jewish conspiracy behind everything in the world.

CCIP

03-20-14, 09:48 AM

coming back to the original topic, here is a (Russian/Ukrainian) song and video that I posted a translation of on my blog that I think is very striking, touching, and focuses on the human side of the tragedies that happened on the Maidan, with some excellent video footage:

http://russongs.tumblr.com/post/80123998338/elektricheskie-partizany-the-last-request-of-an-old

Take a moment to reflect on what was a violent, sad and terrible situation no matter how you look at it.

Bilge_Rat

03-20-14, 10:37 AM

anyone seen this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po9iBcof5gM

guess what the next target will be.

So who is glad the F-35 program was NOT cancelled? :ping:

.................

non sequitor

http://www.cristyli.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Ukraine-Obama.jpg

Skybird

03-20-14, 11:01 AM

I read that two major newspaper in China which both are very close to the party and one of it being associated with the Chinese intelligence agency (indicating that both papers act and write and publish with approval by and in the name of the political leadership) published editorials that are seen as hints that behind the curtain of international politics Russia and China are establishing very close ties in diplomatic cooperation and military partnership.

Already in the past Moscow had tried to gain Chinese support for a coordinated attempt to attack the dollar as a lead currency and to wreck US bonds trading. Back then, Bejing rejected that. I am not so sure that it would reject that again in principle, since I see it like Bejing preparing since some time now to torpedo the dollar and replace it with a Chinese currency, I do not even rule out that China is preparing a gold-standard currency.

A coordinated flooding of markets with the dollar reserves and US bond assets from both Russia and China, at the same time - would be a disaster and cause a fiscal chain reaction that the US in no way is strong enough to counter.

The two Chinese papers are quoted with boasting that Europea and the US failed in correctly identifying Russian vital interests, and that both are unable to enforce their interests against a Russian-Chinese alliance. Which I think is true. Militarily this is a close call, but I think the Chinese see it in financial and economic terms anyway. And on those terms, the West is not only weak - but utmost vulnerable.

India stubbornly refuses to become too close with Western powers. It will never be a Western anchor in the region.

Russian and Chinese diplomats already work on a far-reaching treaty which is also about massively boosting military cooperation as well. Their shared interest is to confront the West and keeping it away, and even more: to get rid of the much hated dollar as the globe's leading currency. So far, the only argument there I hear is that it would cost the Chinese some sacrifices. But every chess player knows that the goal of the game is not to preserve your pieces, but to checkmate the opponent's king, even if the combination leading to that includes sacrificing all your pieces - mate is mate, and then lost pieces mean nothing anymore to the victor.

I say America can delay it a bit. But sooner or later, the dollar is done, so are state bonds. Swedish Rijksbank already has banned the trading of US bonds several years ago.

Once that bomb goes off, America will face a very bad and severe the-morning-after-the party-headache. Middle East powers as well will refuse to accept doing oil deals in dollar any longer, then. Needless to say, the shockwave will devastate much of Europe'S fiscal nightmare landscape as well.

Double check, and mate.

BTW, the Ukraine has been Chinas third biggest weapon seller. If it falls under EU influence, the political climate may change so that China does not get those weapons anymore. Therefore there is a Chines einterest to keep the ukraine unde rRussian infleunce. Onbe can expect, so writes Der Spiegel, that Moscow will cancel its hesitation to sell even ultramodern platforms to china that so far have been kept back as a concession to Western demands. I am quite certain that such deals also are in preparation at those negotiations between both countries. Then the US will pay for sanctions over the Ukraine by a huge increase of risks to its military and naval presence in the disputed waters in the Far East. Superquite Russian submarines and missile-carrying nuclear submarines are high on the Chinese wishlist. Greetings and a big box of Aspirin to the admiral of that CVBG group.

Skybird

03-20-14, 11:05 AM

So who is glad the F-35 program was NOT cancelled? :ping:

It so reassuring to have a hightech army with so many modern weapons that all include chips made in China in their electronics. :up: By the time that plane enters service in huge numbers, the Russians will have translated the Chinese F35 manuals into Kyrillic already. :D

03-20-14, 11:55 AM

That is absolutely right.
I'm not considering anything as Gospel Truth, Steve.
Speaking about the West here, as I just said : to me, most people just live everyday with a certain degree of credulity and ingenuousness making them think everything their politics/army/country's elite do gets to be done with no more than their national interest in mind.
And the only thing I'm saying here is that it is not the case all the time

Most of the people here can agree with that.

Watching tv everyday or so, most people from the West got their brain lying down in their bathtub filled with self-righteousness, caring only about what they think themselves, just as if the West was more virtuous than any other part of the world. And you've reacted the way I expected any Western guy to while reading this kind of article I've posted above : anyone living in the West gets to be very surprised and pretty much shocked, thinking something going along the lines of "hey, wtf, wth is that, so you can find people thinking another way than we do in the West... Incredible ! How the hell is it possible, I can't believe that, that's propaganda".

People in different places think differently about same issues obviously.
Generally speaking every one cares for his side of pond , his own country or his family and so on.
Nothing new , just banal truth.
In some countries with relative hardship , limited freedom poor living conditions those feelings are fed to the people more than elsewhere with minimum possibility of self criticism.
In the west people are fed bull as well yet are free to criticize if they chose to.
For most part people simply live their lives and walk along populist lines and all is good.
Yet we have a choice to see things in different way.
You on another hand take it to extreme and imagine that you see the light...
In countries you defend you would get your ball stuck in your mouth with your attitude or if feeling like wasting resources you would be send to mental institution...probably in the more liberal one of your favorites.
So what drives you?
I can relate with Bashar Assad of Syria and his tribe but why should i?
Possibly the crude way Syria or Iraq had been run was the only way to maintain stability and some sort of "normal" life in those countries but then again... it does not mean i should agree with their point of view or relate to it...those people murdered and tortured own citizens with their tribes acting as the elites you like to complain so much about....
No other tribes are murdering them and each other...or it is Suni vs Shi"te ...another day in ME.

The only reason a free person can defend those regimes is by having agenda or common interest -plain and simple.
Might be insanity or stupidy as well...maybe you want attention at all coast..trying to be original-not like rest of the crowd??
It is not empathy for sure.

So lets now weep for Kim Jong-il he deserves to have his own views after all.