Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine

[Oberon]

Never cast a clout till May be out...or more specifically May 9th...

[Alex]

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/05/02/washington-intends-russias-demise-paul-craig-roberts/


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Craig_Roberts
An interesting man, had never heard of him before - if I'm not mistaken. :hmm2:

[nikimcbee]

I do not understand myself why people would want to live there

Hot chicks.:yeah:

[nikimcbee]

Thanks for posting, its always interesting to hear other points of view, especially from people in the middle of the situation.
ditto.

[Oberon]

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/05/02/washington-intends-russias-demise-paul-craig-roberts/


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Craig_Roberts
An interesting man, had never heard of him before - if I'm not mistaken. :hmm2:


Ah, another 9/11 'truther'

http://png-4.findicons.com/files/icons/1684/ravenna/128/recycle_bin.png

[TarJak]

I've been hesitating for a while - to post or not to post 'cause I'm more the reader than the writer.

Well ,let me be the voice from the other camp. Maybe I will give you another point of view. My language and style are far from being perfect and sometimes I may seem to be floundering in my own thoughts but nevertheless:

I was born in USSR and I am still sorry for it split.
Not because of it was a larger and more powerful state - but because of another spirit.
You see - Russia is now a capitalist state where everyone ( not excluding me) care for earning money and for creating better living conditions for oneself and one's family only. That's what we were doing since 1992.
It's normal - that's what all other individuals do all over the world.
But over the time it turned out that for most part of us that's not exactly the way we want to live - you see it's just not our national mentality.
In USSR times we thought the images in the song like Pink Floyd's "Time" or in Genesis's "Get em out by Friday" are some kind of horrors that exist in some other reality and could not concern us seriously. Now look - it's all around.
I don't want to tell that USSR was an Elven Kingdom - it wasn't of course.
Some things are still seem idiotic Like slogans about Party on the buildings ( which are now imposed by an advertising of Samsung, Apple etc - so on this part things haven't changed a lot).
You see - our way of thinking comes from our historical way of living - we used to live in villages not in individual households. It has obvious good and bad sides but that's how it is.
If you care not only for your household but for village as well, the village would help you in case of need. You know if you do something - you are proud that you helping all in your community to live better. And when it comes to one's last hour - he passes in peace because he knows he would be remembered for his efforts.
That's why being a constructor or serving in the Army was earning more respect in our society than being a lucky salesman for example.
For twenty years it seemed that a salesmen are on top 'cause you know girls prefer guys with money.
Now we understand that girls and money are not everything that makes us happy. We need to be remembered. To know that our efforts are not only for our pockets but for wellness of all our people.
We didn't support Putin that much because it seemed that he cares only for pockets of him and the ones around him. Everything was proving it as it seemed: they were selling the Army by hands of former Defence Minister Serdyukov, they were stealing a lot talking about national projects and never completing them, and so on.
Things become changing couple of years ago - it started with Serdyukov's dismiss and rebirth of army ( I remember happy officers celebrating this happening as a national holiday). Then Putin did what everybody wanted him to do - he forbid state officials to have actives and accounts abroad - and that were the points at which his ratings began to grow.
As for Ukraine - even before their civil war started... Look what their institute of state has achieved through twenty years: after USSR split they took best agricultural lands in Europe, population comparing with that of France, aviation industry, space industry, automobile industry, half of USSR's airforce and army and much more not to say about most advanced infrastructure in the whole USSR.
All their state can do with all that are revolutions every ten years, and no sign of any improving except for new condominiums for nouveau riches in Kiev.
And now they've got a civil war still saying on the one hand that "all our troubles are because of evil Putin and evil Russians" and on the other - slogans like "10000$ for Moscal" or " Moscals to the knives" " Bandera come and make an order".
No doubts when your authorities: 1) officially call you a "Moscal" or "Katzap", 2) tell you that you will earn half as much and pay twice as much because of their "European choice" , say that you haven't an option to be disagree because of 1) what would you choose knowing that you produce most part of national product and paying most part of taxes?

Sorry for bad English and being diffusive

Dmitry

Post of the month for this thread. Thanks for the insight. This sort of comment is likely to never be seen on Western media.

And your English is great. Even some native English speakers stumble over our words sometimes

[Skybird]

Putin blinks, said Mr Quatro. Her hasn't. He already got what he wanted: the Crimneanh, A prevention of EU and NATO moving into the Ukraine, a clearification that without Russia nothing goes in the Eastern Ukraine, the prevention of a strong unified government in Kiev, and as they report now: "far-leading concession" by Western nations. The Eastern Ukraine however, would be a financial burden to Russia, so why picking it up if being able to control it from the outside without needing to shoulder the financial burdens. By keeping the East unsettled and rebellious, he can notoriously keep Kiev under pressure. In chess, you do not uselessly exchange a figure for another figure you got pinned. The pinning itself is of much more tactical value than a pointless exchange of two figures that makes life easier for your opponent.

In this context it is interesting to learn that the Ukraine has just bought gold worth 1 billion dollars with money freshly given to it from Western powers and global institutions. I am all for buying gold, but with my money MY gold only, please. Why, amongst others, my money got wasted wasted to them so that THEY can buy gold, is beyond me, I think this was not what that made-in-the-West money was meant for... :hmmm:

[Dmitry Markov]

Hi everyone - thanks for kind words!
I've noticed another problem concerning mass media and public opinion: and that's simply a language barrier.
Concerning my point of view on this conflict, You must admit one thing - I don't watch TV - neither Russian, nor Western. My AV system is not even connected to antenna or SAT.
Most info I get on the situation comes from Internet or from direct speaking with different people.
And here I've got an advantage - I am bilingual ( three lingual counting French although I don't speak but only read, and a bit of German, Japanese and so on.., ah! And don't forget about Ukrainian - every Russian can understand Ukrainian if not talk)
so I can get info everywhere, while most Western people get info only in English or in their local languages and most Russians get info only in Russian.
A tremendous volume of info in Russian which is rarely translated just passes away from view of Western public.
I suppose You don't trust RT that much as it's a government channel, but unfortunately you can't read blogs, twits, hear Zello channels and so on. There are plenty of them actually.
For example - BBC concerning maidan in February showed only Maidan hitmen being fired at by unseen sniper. But it never showed another videos with unarmed Berkut officers who were shot and burned with bottles of napalm by radicals a night before. This kind of videos is being removed from YouTube or being given 18+ ratio very quickly.
What you don't see also are Ustream channels. For example the ones from Odessa where Right Sector hitmen kill people who are trying to escape from burning House of Trade Unions, where happy hitmen search and count burnt and head-shot bodies with replicas like "Look haha there's Romeo and Juliet" at the sight of a guy and a girl who died in arms of each other. So-called interim government fully supports that all telling that those people burned themselves and the only guilty persons are Police officials.
Strange "European choice"...
BBC talking about war in South-East speaks only of junta's forces casualties and never tells about kids being accidentally shot, about junta's APC opening fire at a group of locals who were unarmed and trying to keep military forces out of their town. About a young woman who went out to her balcony to see for her husband coming home and was head-shot by junta sniper.
Not to talk about junta's decision to deploy artillery and multiple-rocket launchers against cities without evacuating civilians ( in Russian this word translated as " peaceful inhabitants" ).
This move is most dangerous for everyone.
You see, we here read the blogs from South-East, here their voices on Zello as they repel junta's forces assaults and feel ourselves ashamed and inept to help people who call themselves Russians (even being Ukrainians) and who ask for our help calling us in Russia "well-fed hamsters". That's on the one hand.
On the other - if artillery and multiple launch systems would be used - our country would have to react because if it won't react than we are true are well-fed hamsters who care only for their well-fed live.
By the words "react" I mean not necessarily an intervention. It could be point cruise missile strikes in style we've eliminated Dudaev. Or it could be night attack helos Mi-28 strike on junta's armoured vehicles groups. But that would give junta's another aces in hand for their propaganda and I imagine what would be shown in Western media assuming they won't show junta's artillery firing at Slavyansk.
And in case of intervention we can face partisan actions because although South-East is for most part Russian - it's not totally Russian like Crimea.
Another long-lasting hot conflict is not the thing I personally dream about taking into account ten years of Chechnya and knowing how much work and time it took for NKVD to get reed of UPA in 40's - 50's ( and those actions were taking place only in woods on a small territory of westernmost parts of Ukrainian Soviet Republic). At least that would mean my own hamster's life will become less well-fed.
So the last VVP's words of moving the troops from the border and ask to postpone the vote in South-East while being concidered by South-Eastern people as betrayal, are in fact partly to give junta a chance not to overescalate the situation. Of course first artillery barrage would give him an argument like : " You see, We've told them..."

Actually, I don't see an exit from this situation - junta is not interested in loosing most important industrial region, locals have lost interest to project "Ukraine"
and won't talk with junta, West supporting junta and trying to save the face after Odessa, Us trying to save the face after talking of non-supporting people whom we have to support...

Let's study foreign languages :)

[August]

I suppose the Russians are quite happy to leave Chernobyl to the Ukrainians.

[Jimbuna]

I suppose the Russians are quite happy to leave Chernobyl to the Ukrainians.

Only until it becomes inhabitable again :03:

[Skybird]

Hi everyone - thanks for kind words!
I've noticed another problem concerning mass ...

(...)

... save the face after talking of non-supporting people whom we have to support...

Let's study foreign languages :)

Western mainstream media are heavily censored already, and mostly serve as propaganda platforms. It must not necessarily be formal censorship by state-called censor sitting in censoring offices, but it is the heavily regulated use of terminology and phrasing, slogans and suggestive wording, the language shows thinking the "right" path. Of course, heavy political manipulation of TV and newspapers also play a role, in some cases more, in others less. German first and second state TV channels for exmaple are heavily regulated by representativies of established political parties CDD/CSU and SPD who sit in the governing panels and board of directors, having great influence on what journalist with what political views and servile basic attitudes towards the parties (a precondition today to make career on TV) gets promoted. But the biggest censoring influence has the labguage being used, it is designed to suggest the wanted opinions and views, and implies wanted views and opinions of PC, wanted policies, and (anti)social lobby groups that are allies of political parties.

The audience this way gets trained and educated to censor itself without realising it. Great! Orwell's vision in comparison was primitive if you compare it to this perfidy today.

Its a problem in all Western nations, Europe and America alike.

[Skybird]

Only until it becomes inhabitable again :03:
Many animals that returned to the radiating zone show to have grown stronger immune systems and resistances to radiation, they grow slightly bigger and are slightly stronger in muscles. No joke. I read it some weeks ago in some German report that was - I think - summarising the findings of some Russian or Finnish scientists, I do not precisely recall it anymore. Talk was of many bird species, wolves and deer. No word on insects, reptiles, fishes, bears (if they had bears there).

[Jimbuna]

Many animals that returned to the radiating zone show to have grown stronger immune systems and resistances to radiation, they grow slightly bigger and are slightly stronger in muscles. No joke. I read it some weeks ago in some German report that was - I think - summarising the findings of some Russian or Finnish scientists, I do not precisely recall it anymore. Talk was of many bird species, wolves and deer. No word on insects, reptiles, fishes, bears (if they had bears there).

One species missing....human being :03:

[Oberon]

One species missing....human being :03:

Not necessarily:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/9646437/The-women-living-in-Chernobyls-toxic-wasteland.html

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/11/07/opinion/morris-ted-chernobyl/

Of course, now I need to post:

http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1335/89/1335892872467.jpg

[Jimbuna]

^ Bah! At that age they're fixtures and fittings :)

[Oberon]

^ Bah! At that age they're fixtures and fittings :)

Talking from experience are we? :O: :03: :haha:

[Jimbuna]

Talking from experience are we? :O: :03: :haha:

We'll settle this in York young man...I may be short on teeth but I still have a ferocious bite :stare:

:O::03:

[Oberon]

We'll settle this in York young man...I may be short on teeth but I still have a ferocious bite :stare:

:O::03:

Just remember to wind your dentures up first

http://www.comparestoreprices.co.uk/images/to/toyday-traditional-&-classic-toys-wind-up-chattering-teeth.gif :03: :haha:

[Dmitry Markov]

Gentlemen, let's not joke on Chernobyl at least here. Of course it's not something that could be dealt this way - 'cause it's our mutual tragedy all across former USSR. It was our common country the days it happened. A lot of people suffered ( my relatives as well) and still suffer. Knowing the still danger of this object ... And Ukraine doesn't have neither money nor specialists to cope with it on it's own.

[HunterICX]

I suppose the Russians are quite happy to leave Chernobyl to the Ukrainians.

Chernobyl isn't a Russian nor Ukrainian problem, it's a European problem.
The Sarcophagus that currently is over the station is in a really bad shape and it's hell to pay fo the whole European continent if that thing collapses on top of the remains of the Reactor. They planned to have the NSC (New Safe Confinement) up in 2015 which should prevent any more radioactive waste to spread into the enviroment, prevent further corrosion to the existing shelter and allow partial deconstruction of the old shelter like the unstable roof.

[Aktungbby]

Post of the month for this thread. Thanks for the insight. This sort of comment is likely to never be seen on Western media.

And your English is great. Even some native English speakers stumble over our words sometimes

:agree::sign_yeah: Welcome back Dmetri after a five year absence:salute:Your English: "to post or not to post" is dandy and your insight is most enlightening!

[Aktungbby]

We'll settle this in York young man...I may be short on teeth but I still have a ferocious bite :stare:

:O::03:

Dear Kaleun: Reading a page from my book I see! Good dentists are hard to get at the bunker lately. On the bright side, I'll be attending a wedding myself...shortly. Keep a stiff upper lip! Yours, Adolf:haha::salute: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Hitler/docs/death/Hitler_Xray_450.jpg

[Aktungbby]

Not necessarily:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/9646437/The-women-living-in-Chernobyls-toxic-wasteland.html

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/11/07/opinion/morris-ted-chernobyl/

Of course, now I need to post:

I should head for Chernobyl! I'm fond of 'determined Babushkas' and at my age, I don't have to worry about excess radiation!:doh:

[Oberon]

Chernobyl isn't a Russian nor Ukrainian problem, it's a European problem.
The Sarcophagus that currently is over the station is in a really bad shape and it's hell to pay fo the whole European continent if that thing collapses on top of the remains of the Reactor. They planned to have the NSC (New Safe Confinement) up in 2015 which should prevent any more radioactive waste to spread into the enviroment, prevent further corrosion to the existing shelter and allow partial deconstruction of the old shelter like the unstable roof.

Agreed, and to be fair I was joking at Jim rather than about Chernobyl and Pripyat, I have a lot of respect for the Babushkas that have stayed behind rather than be moved, and I hope that they and the wilderness around them continue to thrive in the absense of human encroachment.
It is strange though, some of the best wildlife reserves in the world are in the areas that humans are unable to live, Chernobyl, the Korean DMZ, and no doubt in the future Fukushima as well.
It is also quite amazing to see how quickly nature takes back what originally belonged to it, quite amazing indeed.
However, Hunter is right, the current sarcophagus is in pretty bad condition, and if it collapses, well it would be a very bad thing indeed.

[Jimbuna]

Agreed, and to be fair I was joking at Jim rather than about Chernobyl and Pripyat, I have a lot of respect for the Babushkas that have stayed behind rather than be moved, and I hope that they and the wilderness around them continue to thrive in the absense of human encroachment.
It is strange though, some of the best wildlife reserves in the world are in the areas that humans are unable to live, Chernobyl, the Korean DMZ, and no doubt in the future Fukushima as well.
It is also quite amazing to see how quickly nature takes back what originally belonged to it, quite amazing indeed.
However, Hunter is right, the current sarcophagus is in pretty bad condition, and if it collapses, well it would be a very bad thing indeed.

Agreed re the joking and Wims viewpoint.

[Dread Knot]

It is strange though, some of the best wildlife reserves in the world are in the areas that humans are unable to live, Chernobyl, the Korean DMZ, and no doubt in the future Fukushima as well.
It is also quite amazing to see how quickly nature takes back what originally belonged to it, quite amazing indeed.


For better or worse, Detroit certainly belong on the unintended nature reserve list as well. The only critical difference is that it's due to economic neglect not radiation or war.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ydWDQNRavX8/UHr3mM_q16I/AAAAAAAAABY/alpU4v0UqHQ/s1600/Carwash_Cafe-Detroit.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_PnT6fOkhWyg/TBhbXNvvU9I/AAAAAAAADTc/yzwU4SL5wUw/s1600/4704374305_450cab4303_b.jpg
http://viennasecession.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/6_warrencentertreevergara.jpg
http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/144757/DetroitAerial.bmp

[Oberon]

Impressive, but sad considering the circumstances, which admittedly could be said for all of the aforementioned abandoned places.
There's a whole hunk of derelict sites on this website:
http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/forums/

Quite impressive some of them.

[Dread Knot]

Impressive, but sad considering the circumstances, which admittedly could be said for all of the aforementioned abandoned places.
There's a whole hunk of derelict sites on this website:
http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/forums/

Quite impressive some of them.

Wow. Superlatives fail me. :o

Maybe it explains some of the popularity of the zombie genre. We have ample zombie landscape seemingly waiting to be populated.

[August]

It may look desolate but there is a considerable amount of money in this picture.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ydWDQNRavX8/UHr3mM_q16I/AAAAAAAAABY/alpU4v0UqHQ/s1600/Carwash_Cafe-Detroit.jpg

[Dread Knot]

It may look desolate but there is a considerable amount of money in this picture.



Not to mention an Interstate 94 on-ramp that isn't in Google Maps database. :D

[Sailor Steve]

DIBS ON THE JEEP!

After my brief stint apprenticing in a body shop I helped one of my mom's husbands restore an early CJ that looked a lot like that one. My payment was a replacement transmission for my '65 Chevy panel truck. It was worth it.

[Oberon]

Live stream from Mariupol where skirmishes are taking place between the Ukrainian army and pro-Russian forces:

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/newsfront4

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BnLsJstCYAA6lPH.jpg

[Alex]

Live stream from Mariupol where skirmishes are taking place between the Ukrainian army and pro-Russian forces:

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/newsfront4 (http://www.ustream.tv/channel/newsfront4)
http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/72475027f.jpg

[Skybird]

Doesn't happen often that I agree with the Süddeutsche Zeitung SZ.

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/krise-in-der-ukraine-einen-schritt-zurueck-1.1955016

Summary: Putin cannot like to have bandits and terrorist and dubious self-declared local leaders as his allies, since he favours strict leadership hierarchies and discipline in following the orders from Moscow. The population in the region around Donezk is not as hugely Russian as on the Crimean and also not that overwhelmingly in favour of becoming a Russian province. So Putin now moves back one step again - and by that turns the unrest in the east into an internal Ukrainian problem that Kiew has to deal with, whether it likes it or not. Kiev will hate to talk with the East, and turn federal more or less - but in the long term, it has no other choice.

And with that federalized weakening of the Ukraine, Putin will have reached the other of his two major goals (Crimean being the other).

Chess at its finest. Western diplomats and leaders in this crisis have been no match for him.

[nikimcbee]

Doesn't happen often that I agree with the Süddeutsche Zeitung SZ.

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/krise-in-der-ukraine-einen-schritt-zurueck-1.1955016

Summary: Putin cannot like to have bandits and terrorist and dubious self-declared local leaders as his allies, since he favours strict leadership hierarchies and discipline in following the orders from Moscow. The population in the region around Donezk is not as hugely Russian as on the Crimean and also not that overwhelmingly in favour of becoming a Russian province. So Putin now moves back one step again - and by that turns the unrest in the east into an internal Ukrainian problem that Kiew has to deal with, whether it likes it or not. Kiev will hate to talk with the East, and turn federal more or less - but in the long term, it has no other choice.

And with that federalized weakening of the Ukraine, Putin will have reached the other of his two major goals (Crimean being the other).

Chess at its finest. Western diplomats and leaders in this crisis have been no match for him.

Einen Schritt zurück

I was going to say, that was a great Toten Hosen song, but that is Ein Schritt zuviel.:88)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct6FNtxfXng

[Mr Quatro]

Hi everyone - thanks for kind words!
I've noticed another problem concerning mass media and public opinion: and that's simply a language barrier.
Concerning my point of view on this conflict, You must admit one thing - I don't watch TV - neither Russian, nor Western. My AV system is not even connected to antenna or SAT.
Most info I get on the situation comes from Internet or from direct speaking with different people.
And here I've got an advantage - I am bilingual ( three lingual counting French although I don't speak but only read, and a bit of German, Japanese and so on.., ah! And don't forget about Ukrainian - every Russian can understand Ukrainian if not talk)
so I can get info everywhere, while most Western people get info only in English or in their local languages and most Russians get info only in Russian.
A tremendous volume of info in Russian which is rarely translated just passes away from view of Western public.
I suppose You don't trust RT that much as it's a government channel, but unfortunately you can't read blogs, twits, hear Zello channels and so on. There are plenty of them actually.
For example - BBC concerning maidan in February showed only Maidan hitmen being fired at by unseen sniper. But it never showed another videos with unarmed Berkut officers who were shot and burned with bottles of napalm by radicals a night before. This kind of videos is being removed from YouTube or being given 18+ ratio very quickly.
What you don't see also are Ustream channels. For example the ones from Odessa where Right Sector hitmen kill people who are trying to escape from burning House of Trade Unions, where happy hitmen search and count burnt and head-shot bodies with replicas like "Look haha there's Romeo and Juliet" at the sight of a guy and a girl who died in arms of each other. So-called interim government fully supports that all telling that those people burned themselves and the only guilty persons are Police officials.
Strange "European choice"...
BBC talking about war in South-East speaks only of junta's forces casualties and never tells about kids being accidentally shot, about junta's APC opening fire at a group of locals who were unarmed and trying to keep military forces out of their town. About a young woman who went out to her balcony to see for her husband coming home and was head-shot by junta sniper.
Not to talk about junta's decision to deploy artillery and multiple-rocket launchers against cities without evacuating civilians ( in Russian this word translated as " peaceful inhabitants" ).
This move is most dangerous for everyone.
You see, we here read the blogs from South-East, here their voices on Zello as they repel junta's forces assaults and feel ourselves ashamed and inept to help people who call themselves Russians (even being Ukrainians) and who ask for our help calling us in Russia "well-fed hamsters". That's on the one hand.
On the other - if artillery and multiple launch systems would be used - our country would have to react because if it won't react than we are true are well-fed hamsters who care only for their well-fed live.
By the words "react" I mean not necessarily an intervention. It could be point cruise missile strikes in style we've eliminated Dudaev. Or it could be night attack helos Mi-28 strike on junta's armoured vehicles groups. But that would give junta's another aces in hand for their propaganda and I imagine what would be shown in Western media assuming they won't show junta's artillery firing at Slavyansk.
And in case of intervention we can face partisan actions because although South-East is for most part Russian - it's not totally Russian like Crimea.
Another long-lasting hot conflict is not the thing I personally dream about taking into account ten years of Chechnya and knowing how much work and time it took for NKVD to get reed of UPA in 40's - 50's ( and those actions were taking place only in woods on a small territory of westernmost parts of Ukrainian Soviet Republic). At least that would mean my own hamster's life will become less well-fed.
So the last VVP's words of moving the troops from the border and ask to postpone the vote in South-East while being concidered by South-Eastern people as betrayal, are in fact partly to give junta a chance not to overescalate the situation. Of course first artillery barrage would give him an argument like : " You see, We've told them..."

Actually, I don't see an exit from this situation - junta is not interested in loosing most important industrial region, locals have lost interest to project "Ukraine"
and won't talk with junta, West supporting junta and trying to save the face after Odessa, Us trying to save the face after talking of non-supporting people whom we have to support...

Let's study foreign languages :)

Thank you Dmitry for your input ... this is an international forum message board and it is refreshing to have something besides CNN, NBC, CBS, Fox and ABC for a view.

I for one surf with a TV on a 40" LCD hdmi one (1) hooked to a AV with four hdmi plug-ins and the PC hooked up to the same LCD TV plugged into hdmi two (2) meaning that I have the sound for any channel without the view and surf the net at the same time, understand?

Now here's what you get to hear about in the USA in between the commercials that is, MH370 search patterns, Donald Stearlings racist comments about the NBA black players talking to his occasional girlfriend about what she can do or what she can't do and of course the news about bad weather in the mid-west and the east coast and the drought in California with news about what President Obama thinks about anything he thinks repeated every other hour and maybe once every two hours a brief summary about what pro-Russian supposedly civilian forces are doing in the Ukraine.

That's about it ... if we want news about the Russian/Ukraine problems we have to zone in like a search radar on the news from Bing, Google or Yahoo or a friendly message board like subsim.

I don't know what the people on the street think due to my rural area, but that's okay with me leaves more time for fishing and picture taking with this beautiful spring weather.

Thanks again for your input :up:

[Alex]

http://french.ruvr.ru/news/2014_05_09/Les-pays-occidentaux-sont-responsables-de-l-escalade-des-tensions-en-Ukraine-femme-politique-allemande-9589/

Western countries, and mainly the united states of America do bear responsibility for the escalation of tensions in Ukraine, as Sahra Wagenknecht - former parliamentary leader of the german left-wing party - indicated.

While the russian government called supporters of the federalization of Ukraine for cancelling the referendum, NATO and EU proclaimed threats, calling for the strengthening of sanctions, while military units were transferred in the area, she noted.

If you keep offending the dignity of a country, you may end up receiving some reaction in response to what you did, she said.The beaten dog dares to look facts in the face.

[Dmitry Markov]

Skybird, please don't call militias in South-East a terrorists - 'till present moment they didn't murder any civilian in Kiev or in Lvov, didn't blast any bus or metro station, never opened fire into crowd. I live in Russia - I know what the word "terrorist" mean . In 2004 I've missed a blown up underground train by minutes. Blocks of flats blown up in 1999 are situated in my district ( because it's closest to the highway to Northern Caucasus). Believe me, this term cannot be applied to the people in Donetzk and Lugansk regions. Yet...
Sorry if I seem a moralist - I am not ))

Mr Quattro - You are welcome :-)
Rural areas rule! In our family we've changed our minds from popular in our country "beach tourism" with all-inclusive hotels to rural tourism. When I was a child I used to visit my grandparents village. Now I've got my own kids and We try to create such emotions for them - a touch of more natural life - which can now easily be combined with visiting other countries and seeing local specialities of that way of life. Last year We've been to Spain - in mountain village in Andalusia (instead of seashore where most of our compatriots usually go) and it was incredible! An air is cleaner, people are nice and it was very very quiet. And this year we go to France - to a village in Languedoc near Carcassonne :sunny:

Being a big city dweller I nearly envy suburb and rural inhabitants ;-)

[Skybird]

Skybird, please don't call militias in South-East a terrorists - 'till present moment they didn't murder any civilian in Kiev or in Lvov, didn't blast any bus or metro station, never opened fire into crowd.

It's a mixed bag, Dmitry, and while I am not thinking that all those groups are terrorist, I am quite sure that some of them have their bloody, dirty secrets to hide by now, too - conflicts like this one now never get carried out by any fighting side keeping its hands clean. The Eastern opposition to Kiev in general does not give me a completely united look, some local leaders seem to run their own thing. It's not the same thing like on the Crimean.

While I am not believing blindly what Kiev says, I also do not blindly believe the Kremlin's propaganda machinery.

My general attitude towards all these events is pragmatic, and you can get an idea of it by my postings in general, not just by one sentence or word. ;)

[Oberon]

Terrorist is a subjective word anyway. :hmmm:

[Skybird]

And I mentioned it only anyway because an according formulation is in the article I said I summarised.


Was in der Ostukraine geschieht, kann Moskau nicht gefallen. Verbündete, die Terror verbreiten, mag auch der auf Ordnung und klare Befehlsstrukturen bedachte russische Präsident nicht haben: Neben professionellen Kämpfern und geschulten Agitatoren tummeln sich im Donbass eitle Neu-Politiker dubioser Provenienz, Schläger und Hooligans sowie kriminelle Banden, die Banken und Geschäfte ausrauben. Und, das darf nicht vergessen werden, auch ehrlich empörte Bürger, die nicht mögen, was sie aus Kiew (http://www.sueddeutsche.de/thema/Kiew) hören.

[TarJak]

Terrorist is a subjective word anyway. :hmmm:

QFT patriots, terrorists, freedom fighters, mujahadeen. All the same thing depending on your viewpoint.

[Jimbuna]

QFT patriots, terrorists, freedom fighters, mujahadeen. All the same thing depending on your viewpoint.

You missed a couple...politicians, bankers :)

[TarJak]

You missed a couple...politicians, bankers :)

Sssh! They were on the missing pages. :03:

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/you_didnt_see_anything_madagascar.gif

[Jimbuna]

http://s2.postimg.org/adt25iip5/image.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

[Skybird]

German tabloid Bild am Sonntag refers to the German BND when printing that Kiew has 400 elite mercenaries from US company Academi (formerly known as Blackwater) operating with its combat troops in the Donezk region.

First they fought to help growing new record harvests of poppy in Afghanistan, to secure the drug supply to Europe and America. Now they are fighting in the Ukraine, for a fascist party and thugs and leading gangsters from the organised crime, and dubious oligarchs that are anything but democratically oriented. We will see sooner or later what masterful and brilliant ideas America's auxiliaries are fighting for and support this time.

[mapuc]

I wonder how reliable that is. American "soldiers" either directly or indirectly involved in the unrest in eastern Ukraine. This would increase the tension in the area.

Markus

[Dan D]

Porno Metal Reggae

[Oberon]

Hey, if Kiev can afford it...which thanks to the IMF they can, Academi has the training and equipment. I doubt the US explicitly sent them to the Ukraine, but equally I doubt they would have stopped them anyway.

Mercenaries in warzones are hardly a new thing, I recall a lot of the 1970s African brush-wars had British mercenaries, some government owned, some freelancers, it's good money if you survive, and with so many armed forces in the west cutting back in the recession, it's a logical choice for an ex-soldier or ex-special forces to join a PMC.

I think that there's only a handful of people in this thread, if that, that truly think that the Kiev regime is a band of angels, it's a real alien vs predator situation but most wars are like that, both sides get their hands dirty and have questionable motives. Whoever wins then writes the history. C'est la guerre.

Still, on the up side for Putin, at least Russia got more Eurovision points than the UK...which means that the UK is hated more in Europe than Russia...and neither are hated as much as the French, just as it should be. :yep: :haha:

I wonder how reliable that is. American "soldiers" either directly or indirectly involved in the unrest in eastern Ukraine. This would increase the tension in the area.

Markus

About as reliable as Russian 'soldiers' being either directly or indirectly involved in the unrest in eastern Ukraine. War is a dirty business, and technically Academi is not a legal branch of the US military, it is a Private Military Company which means they are mercenaries, which are defined as:Art 47. Mercenaries
1. A mercenary shall not have the right to be a combatant or a prisoner of war.
2. A mercenary is any person who:
(a) is especially recruited locally or abroad in order to fight in an armed conflict;
(b) does, in fact, take a direct part in the hostilities;
(c) is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party;
(d) is neither a national of a Party to the conflict nor a resident of territory controlled by a Party to the conflict;
(e) is not a member of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict; and
(f) has not been sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces.

(Protocol Additional GC 1977 (APGC77) )


The problem comes in ascertaining whether a mercenary has taken an active role in the conflict, if they have then they may be treated as a common criminal and face execution if captured. If they are not then they may qualify as civilian contractors and then they are protected under the Geneva Convention III


Honestly though, PMCs are becoming an increasingly bothersome legal matter, and there's a LOT of grey area...which is mostly where they operate.

Also, since copy and pasting that definition my text layout has gone all funky, probably an FSB plot... :nope:

[BossMark]

http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee374/rothwellwhite1/ukraine_zpsb943e658.jpg

[Catfish]

@ Oberon ^^ good point, also remember Brennan (head of the CIA) went to Kiew. What a coincidence. NOT.
I think GB is a bit more professional and 'sneaky' with its influence in the Ukraine, but it may be they just remember the Crimean War and Balaclava better. After all it was notorious for logistical, medical and tactical failure on both sides..

Terrorist is a subjective word anyway. :hmmm:

Yes. However the media begin to decribe internal state terrorism now, as terrorism. Usually right-wing terrorism blamed on the left and Muslims, used to be patriotism :nope:

[Skybird]

This would increase the tension in the area.


You put it in a way as if that would be counterproductive to the American action. But I think that's kind of their motive to have been send there. ;)

The British queen once waged naval war against Spain by not letting official Royal Navy ships fight against the Spaniards, but by sending buccaners to hunt them, buccaneers that formally were independent from the crown, and despite attacking Spanish ships allowed the crown to claim to not conduct war against Spain.

Oberon, operations of this size mercenary companies from America NEVER run without approval or order by Washington. They are in bed together. Why do you think has Americia allowed them to come into business, why has it outsourced military capacities to them? ;)

[Oberon]

Oberon, operations of this size mercenary companies from America NEVER run without approval or order by Washington. They are in bed together. Why do you think has Americia allowed them to come into business, why has it outsourced military capacities to them? ;)

It's not a direct order though, more likely it was a suggestion passed along with the money from the IMF by a diplomat in a back room somewhere. Plausible deny-ability. :03:

Besides, it's sauce for the goose, it's not as if Russia hasn't had men in eastern Ukraine already.

@ Oberon ^^ good point, also remember Brennan (head of the CIA) went to Kiew. What a coincidence. NOT.
I think GB is a bit more professional and 'sneaky' with its influence in the Ukraine, but it may be they just remember the Crimean War and Balaclava better. After all it was notorious for logistical, medical and tactical failure on both sides..

We do try and learn from history. :haha: :03: I would not at all be surprised to hear of SIS operating in Ukraine at the moment, I doubt we have any actual military forces there like SAS or anything, but intel forces will almost certainly be on the ground.

Yes. However the media begin to decribe internal state terrorism now, as terrorism. Usually right-wing terrorism blamed on the left and Muslims, used to be patriotism :nope:

:hmmm: I must admit I've not come across that yet, not in our media, although 'nationalists' does get bandied around a bit, but to be fair both sides in this conflict have been using the word terrorist depending on which side they're describing.

[Alex]

On one side :

http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/410302georgewbush73.jpg


On the other side :

http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/711984961.gif (http://www.voltairenet.org/article183614.html)

If anyone still doubts that the "war against terrorism" is a scam and that terrorism in general and al Qaeda in particular are instruments of U.S. policy, this report is further evidence.:)

[Oberon]

http://media.fukung.net/imgs/GG%20Nextmap%20Bush.jpg


http://eriklundegaard.com/media/2/missmeyet.jpg

[Skybird]

It's not a direct order though, more likely it was a suggestion passed along with the money from the IMF by a diplomat in a back room somewhere. Plausible deny-ability. :03:
Call it like you want, against Washington's decision these companies cannot do anything. They even operate under licence from the government. Which they can lose if the goverment decides to sink them (like Blackwater in Iraq). And I do not even mention logistic support by regular army/air force forces, and equipment.


it's not as if Russia hasn't had men in eastern Ukraine already.
Na und...? Is that a reason why American fighters should be on the ground in that civil war zone and start engaging Russians soldiers? Neither Europe nor America should imagine they would have any horse in this race - they both have none, and should try to not get involved. The Kiew regime is not worth our support. And Europe is much closer to it all, than America, we have more at risk in money, we have ten times as many credits given to Russia at risk than America, and we have our energy interests at risk. Washington may mess up things even more - but the vast lion's share of the blowback, if Russia decides to retaliate, will be hitting Europe - not America.

[Oberon]

Na und...? Is that a reason why American fighters should be on the ground in that civil war zone and start engaging Russians soldiers? Neither Europe nor America should imagine they would have any horse in this race - they both have none, and should try to not get involved. The Kiew regime is not worth our support. And Europe is much closer to it all, than America, we have more at risk in money, we have ten times as many credits given to Russia at risk than America, and we have our energy interests at risk. Washington may mess up things even more - but the vast lion's share of the blowback, if Russia decides to retaliate, will be hitting Europe - not America.

And you think that this bothers America, how?
Of course they have a horse in this race, Ukraine could make for a valuable NATO ally, another wall to put up on the Russian border, push the frontline forward as they say. Europe has a horse for the same reason, if they can get away with pushing the frontline forward then they will, because if Russia wants to retaliate conventionally against Western Europe then they've got a longer stretch of land to move through to get to Berlin. Eastern Europe is an expendable buffer zone against Russia.

Some people say that America started this, some say Western Europe started this, and some say Russia started this. Well, they're all right, all sides have a horse in this race, NATO and Russia, and it's a tug of war over Ukraine. It won't come down to a direct confrontation between NATO and Russia because there is no need for it to do so when a proxy war can be fought between pro-Russian forces armed and supported by Russia and the Ukrainian government supported by NATO.

[Skybird]

Unrealistic options or unrealistic expectations are no horses in races. Because the Russians know about it. The moment Kennedy learned about Cuba was when the Russians had lost the race already. Americas race in the Ukraine ended already when the Russians noticed that the first steps were taken to establish NATO units in Sevastopol, in the long run. From the moment on the plots were revealed, the race was decided since no player could or would afford to tolerate certain actions by the other.

[Skybird]

They claim that in the referendum on Sunday 75% of the people went to vote, and of these voters 89% voted in favour of independence.

That would mean that exactly two thirds, 66%, of the total population, voting or not, would have expressed their will to split from Kiev and become independent.

So far there were no reports of people being held guns at their sleeves by separatists to vote "correctly". But the Ukrainian army used military force to prevent votings in one or two voting offices in one town.

The Russians do not form 66% of the population in the Donezk region. That means that many non-Russians have voted against Kiev as well. In most cities in this region the Russians form 25-40% of the local population (German Wikipedia). On the Crimean, Russians form 60-65% of the population.

[Oberon]

They claim that in the referendum on Sunday 75% of the people went to vote, and of these voters 89% voted in favour of independence.

That would mean that exactly two thirds, 66%, of the total population, voting or not, would have expressed their will to split from Kiev and become independent.

I've highlighted an important word there. :haha: This referendum makes Florida look like a beacon of democracy...heck, it makes Egypt look competent!

Unrealistic options or unrealistic expectations are no horses in races. Because the Russians know about it. The moment Kennedy learned about Cuba was when the Russians had lost the race already. Americas race in the Ukraine ended already when the Russians noticed that the first steps were taken to establish NATO units in Sevastopol, in the long run. From the moment on the plots were revealed, the race was decided since no player could or would afford to tolerate certain actions by the other.

Hence the PMCs, the US knows that Russia has sent its own 'advisers' in, and Russia knows that NATO has now sent in a PMC. The key factor is whether the east can be contained and suppressed without direct Russian interference, if it can then Ukraine may well stick two fingers up at Moscow and apply for NATO membership. Putin has been sending mixed signals lately, almost like he's backing off slightly from the pro-Russian rebels, and distancing himself from the referendum, however now that the vote has gone through he's going to have to either act to support the vote or sit back and let Ukraine crush the rebellion and then consolidate its position before turning for western aid in the form of EU bailouts and NATO membership.

Placing nuclear weapons in Cuba is one thing, especially since Cuba is an island and can be blockaded. The Ukraine is only bordered by Russia on one side, the other sides are NATO members (except Moldova), the men in Kiev have a bit more lee-way than Castro did, although in other places, certainly in regards to how Moscow would be viewing this situation you can draw a similarity with Cuba and Castro.

However, there's another third problem that the men in Kiev have to consider, and that's another Cairo, a second revolution by those dissatisfied with the inertia in the current regime.

In short, the next fortnight will tell if Putin is bluffing or not, if he isn't then there will be a war between Ukraine and Russia, if he is then Ukraine will spend the next few months (probably the rest of the year) systematically, and with the aid of PMCs, smashing the opposition into the dirt, and then it will seek western help to stabilise itself and protect itself 'from Russia'.

[Skybird]

And what is your joke worth when the claim is correct and indeed three in four went voting? You laugh early there. That three quarters went voting I do not find unrealistic. More likely is that the 89% mark gets corrected.

However, it currently seems that many non-Russians have expressed their antipathy towards Kiev as well, and that there is a solid majority of the total population wants to split from Kiev.

Of course Western nations will ignore it, and by hat help to keep the conflict alive. They also ignored the referendums in Holland and France over the EU constitution, and then pushed it through after cosmetic changes - forbidding referendums that promised to not give them the outcome they insisted to get. On the Euro, they carefully did not ask the people in the first, knowing that it would be refused, too. The same understanding of how "democracy" should be run we see at work in westerns claims that the referendum in the Ukraine means nothing.

As somebody sympathising strongly with libertarian thinking, my position on this is clear. When a regional population says it wants to split from some central government outside, this is to be respected.

[Oberon]

Meanwhile,

BMP-2s laugh at barricades:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m49dYtVeoNg

'Americans' in Krasnoarmiisk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hskGfvC-QM

Unconfirmed footage of arrested 'separatists' with pre-marked referendum forms:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imcyNGvbPGw

[Skybird]

The west should be more concerned about getting the corruption in Bulgaria and Romania under ciontrol - and the massively growing political interference of Russia in Bulgarian politics. Just yesterday I once againb read a report on that most of Bulagrian ligislation is not influenced by Moscow's proposals.

This is far more a serious concern for EU and NATO, than the damn Ukraine or Transnistria or Moldova (or Georgia).

[Oberon]

Never mind, forget it, put this down as another thing we don't agree on.

[HunterICX]

Never mind, forget it, put this down as another thing we don't agree on.

http://i.imgur.com/UmIxC0V.gif

[Oberon]

http://i.imgur.com/UmIxC0V.gif

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/quiet+you.+How+i+feel+when+somebody+makes+a+negati ve_5d2a9d_3643592.jpg

[BossMark]

"German push to ease Ukraine crisis"

I'm not sure that'll work, the last time the Ukrainians faced a German push left bad memories.

[TarJak]

"German push to ease Ukraine crisis"

I'm not sure that'll work, the last time the Ukrainians faced a German push left bad memories.
Mostly for the Germans once Russia pushed back.

[Kaptlt.Endrass]

Heard on the news that Putin no longer wants war. Is he backing down or is it a ruse? Because America does NOT need Red Dawn to actually happen.

[TarJak]

No he's not. There's also a thread for this discussion already running.

[Kaptlt.Endrass]

Which one???

[TarJak]

The one with all the discussion on Ukraine, Putin, Russia, etc.

[Betonov]

The title is missleading to be honest.
huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine
Says nothing about the anexation and tension that came later.

But it's all there :03:

[TarJak]

The title is missleading to be honest.
huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine
Says nothing about the anexation and tension that came later.

But it's all there :03:

Search is your friend. Thread titles may be misleading.:yep:

[Skybird]

Steinmeier is a babbler and lecturer who thinks he is an elder statesman, but in fact is just a narcissistic panjandrum acting with bumptious gesture and pose. My brain switches off immediately when my eyes see him or my ears hear his voice. I recommend everybody to do the same - its a better life that way.

I said - to Oberon - the EU should be more concerned about Russia trying to gain influence on Romania and Bulgaria, then trying to play in the Ukraine and Moldavia. Here is an article that once again illustrates why I think so.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/fears-grow-in-europe-that-russia-will-influence-bulgaria-a-968955.html

Different to the Ukraine, this now IS Europe's core interests being affected.

[Jimbuna]

Threads merged.

[Skybird]

A first - and still mild - Russian retaliation against US sanctions: Russian vice president Rogosin announced that the Russian space agency has rejected American requests to finance and logistically support the operation of ISS until 2024. Russian support will end 2020, as scheduled. He pointed out that the Russian module could function and operate independently from the American or other modules - but the American module cannot without the Russian module. He further said that no further Sojus capsules will be delivered and also no more rocket engines, used in the first stage of American carrier missiles. Finally he said that GPS stations and connected satellites within Russia's reach will no longer be operated as well, reducing the general precision quality of the system.The Russian space programs will be re-oriented and from now on run by the Russians alone.

Insider commentators rate this as a starting shot for a new space race between Russia and America.

That probably is it for the ISS.

[Oberon]

I think these guys might be a bit optimistic...or seventy years late:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnnhB9S1RcA

[HunterICX]

Better late then never :03:

[Skybird]

At least it illustrates the sentiments by which they tick. Many people over there still feel strong over the USSR. It may be irrational to feel like that, but that they feel like that ius a reality one cannot avoid to deal with. But that is what the West has not understood since twenty years.


Just learned that the Galileo satellites for Europe's own GPS system are not being shot into space from French Guyana, but Russia. Ooops. More Russian options for backfiring. So far they have targetted the US mainly. That could change any time. The capacities provided by Ariane rockets are limited.

[Dread Knot]

Time for our daily ration of Russian crow. I imagine the guys at Space X are beaming broadly.

http://i55.fastpic.ru/big/2014/0502/d1/08f52198254e82e9493af0a961c3c0d1.png

[August]

Good. It was a mistake to rely on the Russians in the first place. It's like letting Dracula volunteer at the Blood Bank.

[Jimbuna]

Good. It was a mistake to rely on the Russians in the first place. It's like letting Dracula volunteer at the Blood Bank.

LOL and agreed :)

[Skybird]

In the novel "Limit" the author describes a near future where the space program of the US is completely privatised, and ha sleft that of europe, Russia and China behind. Maybe Schätzing is a bit over-optimistic, but it is a way to go. But only at the cost that private business will use the opportunity of the still existing state to try to bite big bites out of its tax-enriched body.

I am all for privatised services - but only when certain situational key conditions are met. Business able to exploit state structures because they are still there, and a lack of competitive rivals, is none of that.

[August]

In the novel "Limit" the author describes a near future where the space program of the US is completely privatised, and ha sleft that of europe, Russia and China behind. Maybe Schätzing is a bit over-optimistic, but it is a way to go. But only at the cost that private business will use the opportunity of the still existing state to try to bite big bites out of its tax-enriched body.

I am all for privatised services - but only when certain situational key conditions are met. Business able to exploit state structures because they are still there, and a lack of competitive rivals, is none of that.

I'm all for privatizing the space program too just as long as they don't accidentally put an asteroid on a collision course with our planet. :)

[Lionclaw]

Would it be possible to revive the shuttle program? Just to bridge the gap until there's an alternative? :hmmm:

Orion is still years off from operational status.

Not sure what else there is going on in the USA with regards to human space flight. I'm not well read into the private space sector.

[Skybird]

Would it be possible to revive the shuttle program? Just to bridge the gap until there's an alternative? :hmmm:

No.

[Oberon]

Aye, sadly Skybird is right, the Shuttles are past their use by date. I mean, worse case scenario in terms of supplies the US can call on the X-37, but in regards to human delivery they'll have to rely on Space-X and the Dragons, as well as SNCs Dream-Chaser.

TBH, a scheduled end of 2020 gives the CCD Dragon five years in which to be ready since the first crewed flight is due next year, so the Russians withdrawing their support for ISS missions post 2020 isn't too bad, although by then the ISS will be reaching the end of its lifespan anyway and a deorbit will be necessary, although I believe that the Russians want to reuse the bits that they've put into the ISS to make a new space station of some sort. Hopefully the Russians will deorbit the space station, otherwise Australia will need to issue all its citizens with umbrellas. :O: :03: :haha:

Post-ISS though will primarily be commercial, which is not necessarily a bad thing, especially with NASAs low budget. Hopefully within the next decade someone somewhere will be able to rig up a way to defend us from asteroids too, otherwise all this grand exploration will be for nothing when a giant rock lands on us. :dead:

[Jimbuna]

Hopefully the Russians will deorbit the space station, otherwise Australia will need to issue all its citizens with umbrellas. :O: :03: :haha:



LOL :)

http://s27.postimg.org/8y2x0fa2b/image.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

[Skybird]

Nato not able to defend the Baltic states and Poland.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/ukraine-crisis-shows-up-cracks-in-nato-a-970248.html


"When the Baltic countries were accepted into NATO, Russia did not pose a military threat. The alliance complied with the agreement with Russia and did not station any troops east of the Elbe River. But now that Putin's policy seems to be changing, NATO must come up with a response. At present, the alliance could not protect the Baltic countries with conventional military means." That is the most important sentence, and officials at the German defense and foreign ministries in Berlin agree. It would take about half a year before the members of the alliance would be capable of mustering a suitable response, if at all. "We wouldn't even show up in time for the Russians' victory celebration," says a government expert, who points out that the existing, vague deployment plans are "all outdated."
(...)
Underlying the debate is an assessment of the situation on which NATO and government officials generally agree, namely that the alliance currently feels incapable of defending the Baltic countries with conventional means, that is, with tanks, aircraft and ground troops.
(...)
"When the Baltic countries were accepted into NATO, Russia did not pose a military threat. The alliance complied with the agreement with Russia and did not station any troops east of the Elbe River. But now that Putin's policy seems to be changing, NATO must come up with a response. At present, the alliance could not protect the Baltic countries with conventional military means." That is the most important sentence, and officials at the German defense and foreign ministries in Berlin agree. It would take about half a year before the members of the alliance would be capable of mustering a suitable response, if at all. "We wouldn't even show up in time for the Russians' victory celebration," says a government expert, who points out that the existing, vague deployment plans are "all outdated."
(...)According to the confidential NATO document for the member states' defense ministers, the end of the Cold War led to the conclusion "that the assets needed to fight conventional, large-scale, high-intensity conflicts in Europe could be reduced." In some cases, "entire areas of capability were abandoned or substantially reduced." At the same time, many NATO countries have drastically cut their defense budgets without appreciably coordinating these decisions. According to the NATO report, in 2010 some 16 member states had cut spending, adjusted for inflation, to below 2008 levels. This applied to 18 countries in 2011, and in 2014 it is expected to apply to 21. Between 2009 and 2014, German defense spending shrank from 1.44 percent to 1.29 percent of GNP. All European member states combined spend an average of 1.5 percent of gross national product on defense, compared with the official NATO target of 2 percent, and in some countries the ratio is less than 1 percent. The report argues that already deficient defense structures as they exist now cannot even be maintained at that level. And yet, "despite the action by the Russian Federation in recent months, currently there is little evidence to suggest that the defense spending cuts experienced by a majority of allies over the past five years will be reversed to any great extent."
Speaking off the record, NATO military officials are even more direct, saying that there are weaknesses in the armored corps and the infantry, fighting mines and submarines has been as neglected as air defense with flak and Patriot missiles, and pilots hardly train for aerial combat anymore. In fact, the armed forces of the NATO countries no longer conduct exercises with large troop formations, instead focusing on urban warfare with small units. In short, NATO has dangerously forfeited its ability to conduct a ground war with large troop formations in Europe.

(...)
According to the confidential NATO document for the member states' defense ministers, the end of the Cold War led to the conclusion "that the assets needed to fight conventional, large-scale, high-intensity conflicts in Europe could be reduced." In some cases, "entire areas of capability were abandoned or substantially reduced."
At the same time, many NATO countries have drastically cut their defense budgets without appreciably coordinating these decisions. According to the NATO report, in 2010 some 16 member states had cut spending, adjusted for inflation, to below 2008 levels. This applied to 18 countries in 2011, and in 2014 it is expected to apply to 21. Between 2009 and 2014, German defense spending shrank from 1.44 percent to 1.29 percent of GNP. All European member states combined spend an average of 1.5 percent of gross national product on defense, compared with the official NATO target of 2 percent, and in some countries the ratio is less than 1 percent. The report argues that already deficient defense structures as they exist now cannot even be maintained at that level. And yet, "despite the action by the Russian Federation in recent months, currently there is little evidence to suggest that the defense spending cuts experienced by a majority of allies over the past five years will be reversed to any great extent."
Speaking off the record, NATO military officials are even more direct, saying that there are weaknesses in the armored corps and the infantry, fighting mines and submarines has been as neglected as air defense with flak and Patriot missiles, and pilots hardly train for aerial combat anymore. In fact, the armed forces of the NATO countries no longer conduct exercises with large troop formations, instead focusing on urban warfare with small units. In short, NATO has dangerously forfeited its ability to conduct a ground war with large troop formations in Europe.




Only question remaining: how to pay for all that in a collapsing money order ? The difference between what should be done and what could be done.

[Jimbuna]

I've a question...why are the paragraphs repeated?

[Oberon]

Trade land for time.

[Skybird]

Trade land for time.

Britain'S last in that strategy. Comfortable. ;) :D

Anyhow, time for what? Where there are no reserves, there cannot be meaning in waiting for them.

-----

Meanwhile, another strong warning shot has been fired by russia aginst the West. China and Russia signed a long negotiated energy eral on 38 billion qubic meters of gas, the deal is worth 400 billion dollars. Moscows wanrs that it could not just meet demand from Europe and Asia simultaneously, but that it could even shift the share for Europe towards China.

It's the first time, as far as I know, they ever have threatened such drastic sanctions. Even at the height of the cold war they always fully complied with their business contracts with Western customers, always. Even during Cuba.

The threat is no empty one. China and Russia are natural allies in their attempt to stop and weaken the West. Plus they have even more arrows in their quiver. China, imo, is preparing to destroy the dollar by pushing the Yuan as the world lead currency - a Yuan that is based on a gold standard. That is the worst case scenario for Washington, there can be no doubt that America is willing to do ANYTHING to prevent that gold standard. They cannot stop the Yuan from raising and overtaking the dollar, but the far more dangerous thing is the Yuan as a gold standard currency. The first option already is an overkill weapon. The second is a doomsday machine.

Still needs some more years, probably, but we will talk about this again in the forseeable future, promised.

[Jimbuna]

Britain'S last in that strategy. Comfortable. ;) :D



Well done, you've sussed our dastardly plan...good luck on learning the Russian language :03:

[Dread Knot]

Britain'S last in that strategy. Comfortable. ;) :D

Anyhow, time for what? Where there are no reserves, there cannot be meaning in waiting for them.



Apparently, Bonnie Prince Charles has compared Putin to teh Nazis (which, given the way that the Great Patriotic War is remembered in Russia can be considered even more of a royal gaffe than usual).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-27497899

So, perhaps even this Sceptred Isle may find itself under Putin's disapproving gaze despite being last in the European batting order. :88)

[Jimbuna]

Might be interesting to see if the two of them talk should they bump into each other at the 70th anniversay of the Normandy landings next month to which they have both been invited.

[Aktungbby]

I think ol' "Vlad the Good" will take a broad view...in the interests of diplomacy and unfreezing of assets:O:http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoessays/2011/royal_gaffes/harry_nazi.jpg The House of Windsor has two sides to it! Gaffes go both ways here!:O:

[Oberon]

Britain'S last in that strategy. Comfortable. ;) :D

Anyhow, time for what? Where there are no reserves, there cannot be meaning in waiting for them.

Reforger. :03: The exercises may have stopped but the infrastructure is still in place.

Russia is not the Soviet Union or Warsaw Pact, it doesn't have the benefit of the other nations armies to back it up, if it invades Europe and triggers the full force of NATO, then it will find itself in difficulty with 700k vs about 3mil. That's without calling up reserves.

Of course, you've got to get those units into position first, so the Atlantic would once again be quite a battleground, but Navy vs Navy we still have a fair advantage at this time in comparison of strength, especially with the US Navy on side. So, whilst Reforger is going on, there would be a harrassing attack on Russian forces moving through the Eastern states, mostly by airforce units and rapid response units, and you can beat that the Eastern states would fight like tigers, they have no wish to be under the Russian heel again, never underestimate Polish fighting, ever.
Also, as the Russians push forward, their supply lines get longer and eventually they are going to start running into supply problems and then NATO will look to counter-attack.

It's not the days of the Fulda Gap any more, whilst I would not go on record and say that NATO would win a war with Russia, because in a NATO/Russian war, no one would win because it would be too easy to start climbing up the escalation ladder and we all know what happens when you get to the top, however it's not overwhelming odds that it used to be back when the Black Horse used to stare down Ivan at OP Alpha.


Now, if Russia and China join forces and start things at the same time...then it gets a lot harder, and the likelihood of mushrooms sprouting increases exponentially.

[BossMark]

BBC News: "Russia and China strike new gas deal"

If Ukraine has taught us anything, Vladimir Putin will have annexed half of China in the next five years.

[Jimbuna]

I see Charles is doing his best in assisting the UK measures aimed at Putin but the question is...what is Gordon Brown doing in the picture? :)

A Russian diplomat is to meet a Foreign Office official to discuss comments reportedly made by the Prince of Wales about President Vladimir Putin.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27515086

[BossMark]

President Putin has angrily denied the allegation made by Prince Charles that he's like Hitler. 'Hitler had concentration camps for his killing his enemies wheareas we have the Siberian salt mines. You couldn't get more different'

[Skybird]

Reforger. :03: The exercises may have stopped but the infrastructure is still in place.

Russia is not the Soviet Union or Warsaw Pact, it doesn't have the benefit of the other nations armies to back it up, if it invades Europe and triggers the full force of NATO, then it will find itself in difficulty with 700k vs about 3mil. That's without calling up reserves.

Of course, you've got to get those units into position first, so the Atlantic would once again be quite a battleground, but Navy vs Navy we still have a fair advantage at this time in comparison of strength, especially with the US Navy on side. So, whilst Reforger is going on, there would be a harrassing attack on Russian forces moving through the Eastern states, mostly by airforce units and rapid response units, and you can beat that the Eastern states would fight like tigers, they have no wish to be under the Russian heel again, never underestimate Polish fighting, ever.
Also, as the Russians push forward, their supply lines get longer and eventually they are going to start running into supply problems and then NATO will look to counter-attack.

It's not the days of the Fulda Gap any more, whilst I would not go on record and say that NATO would win a war with Russia, because in a NATO/Russian war, no one would win because it would be too easy to start climbing up the escalation ladder and we all know what happens when you get to the top, however it's not overwhelming odds that it used to be back when the Black Horse used to stare down Ivan at OP Alpha.


Now, if Russia and China join forces and start things at the same time...then it gets a lot harder, and the likelihood of mushrooms sprouting increases exponentially.European armies are not what they have been anymore, too, oberon. An internal report from the German defence minstry from maybe two or three years ago said that Germany could no longer fulfill its NATO obligaiton in case of a full scale war. Navies have dramatically shrunk in size and capacity, whole technical fields of military competence have been given up across or have been turned into respurces now focussing oin asymmetrical warfares. Some nations have given up their fleet of platforms like MBTs. Logistical capacity have been dramatically reduced, ammo stockpiles have shrunk or are extremely old, questioning their efficiency against latest counter measures. The german army cannot even meet its perosnell needs now that the draft is gone. The physical quality of recruits is at an alltime low. Experience is getting lost across most branches of the forces, especially army and air force. And so on and on. Count the number of soldiers in your own Royal Army and ships in the Navy. Be aware that most of Greek tanks have no ammo since they bought the tanks, but no ammo for them.

But allk that is academical only. Any major war with an Europe invading Russia (which is aware it cannot do that anymore) still would be a nuclear war from day one on.

The point is that if Russia does not invade with the goal to get all of Europe, but just to take back the baltic sttaes, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, there is little NATO could do before the Russians have taken all of these. When NATO is ready to counterattack, the Russians already would be deeply dug in. With plenty of toys that the Iraqis did not have.

And as you already pointed out, with China starting to get angry in the Far East simultaneously, America would be seriously hampered in its ability to deal with two majhor wars at the same time. I did not beleive that already when Colin Powell reiterated that the US still could. Since then, even the official Washington has somewhat relativised that assessment. One major war at a time, is now the official view, it seems. and that is more realistic a self-assessment.

BTW, the POMCUS sites in Germany, Belgium and Netherlands have been given up completely, meanwhile. Their equipment no longer is there. That happened after they already were "cannibalised" :) for the wars in Iraq 91 and 03.

[Oberon]

European armies are not what they have been anymore, too, oberon. An internal report from the German defence minstry from maybe two or three years ago said that Germany could no longer fulfill its NATO obligaiton in case of a full scale war. Navies have dramatically shrunk in size and capacity, whole technical fields of military competence have been given up across or have been turned into respurces now focussing oin asymmetrical warfares. Some nations have given up their fleet of platforms like MBTs. Logistical capacity have been dramatically reduced, ammo stockpiles have shrunk or are extremely old, questioning their efficiency against latest counter measures. The german army cannot even meet its perosnell needs now that the draft is gone. The physical quality of recruits is at an alltime low. Experience is getting lost across most branches of the forces, especially army and air force. And so on and on. Count the number of soldiers in your own Royal Army and ships in the Navy. Be aware that most of Greek tanks have no ammo since they bought the tanks, but no ammo for them.

But allk that is academical only. Any major war with an Europe invading Russia (which is aware it cannot do that anymore) still would be a nuclear war from day one on.

The point is that if Russia does not invade with the goal to get all of Europe, but just to take back the baltic sttaes, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, there is little NATO could do before the Russians have taken all of these. When NATO is ready to counterattack, the Russians already would be deeply dug in. With plenty of toys that the Iraqis did not have.

And as you already pointed out, with China starting to get angry in the Far East simultaneously, America would be seriously hampered in its ability to deal with two majhor wars at the same time. I did not beleive that already when Colin Powell reiterated that the US still could. Since then, even the official Washington has somewhat relativised that assessment. One major war at a time, is now the official view, it seems. and that is more realistic a self-assessment.

BTW, the POMCUS sites in Germany, Belgium and Netherlands have been given up completely, meanwhile. Their equipment no longer is there. That happened after they already were "cannibalised" :) for the wars in Iraq 91 and 03.

Oh, I agree completely, on our own Europe cannot fight Russia effectively, not unless we organise ourselves a Europe Defence Force which is not too likely to happen within the next couple of years as it would have to be done under the EU and we all know how good Europes relationship with the EU is at the moment. :03: So at the moment, really, we're reliant upon American manpower...so that's nothing particularly new.
Of course, if America is distracted by the PRC in a Pacific conflict then it gets ugly, however that would require a level of co-operation between Russia and China which is beyond what we've seen so far, and it would also have to wait until the PRC was able to take on the US in equal terms in the Pacific which is probably not until around 2020.

In regards to just retaking the PACT, you're probably right, by the time we got all our forces into position it would be all over...however, that being said, Russia would have to get its forces into position first, and that would be detected by intel so a troop build-up on both sides would begin. The element of surprise is not so easy when you've got several thousand units to move.

True, a lot of the infrastructure isn't what it used to be, I know that a few of our old USAFE bases have gone but others have strangely been left relatively intact. However the US is pretty good at logistics, and we're pretty good at helping the US so there would be ways to work around it.

I don't know if it would go nuclear from day one, because it would completely defeat the objective of seizing control of territory if it's unable to be used, but then again the same could be said of any Soviet invasion of West Germany back in the day, and fortunately that didn't happen either...so the odds are in our favour thanks to MAD and I think Russia knows that starting any kind of nuclear war is a bad move for self-survival, likewise the PRC.

[TarJak]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-22/russia-china-sign-400b-gas-deal/5470230

this gas deal seems to mean Putin needs less cash from EU gas buys than hes been relying on previously. Won't cover everything but gives Russia breathing space if things in the west go pear shaped for them.

Not a bad bit on analysis on what the deal means for both parties and their neighbours: http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2014/s4009686.htm

[Betonov]

In related news.

Study shows, that if strict sanctions against Russia are implemented, Slovene GDP will shrink 2,5% :dead:

[Catfish]

Why should we organize (and PAY) bigger superfluous defences and military hard- and software ? Against whom ? The NATO ? Because it sure won't be Russia.
Against North Korea ? Ok you have a point (lmao).

Does anyone really believe that Russia will attack anyone ?
And the latter includes the baltic states, and Poland. Really ?!

So why wtf ?
The only real aggressive action (if only word-wise) i saw lately has been uttered by the NATO.

Are the Russians still the eeevil commies, for you ?
Seems the West badly needs an enemy, and if he is not there we have to make up one. Too bad all those terrorists seem to be very reluctant since theer are so much good (for the media) news from Syria, and Russia.
So we need another enemy - or time for some Gladio action again so that we can blame it on someone and frighten our people, eh ?

NATO and NSA never needed an enemy THAT urgent, to have a reason for their own existence, after 1990.

[Oberon]

Ask the Baltic states, they're not as confident that Russia will stay in Russia. :O:

[MH]

So we need another enemy - or time for some Gladio action again so that we can blame it on someone and frighten our people, eh ?


What if i tell you that Russia needs an enemy more than anyone else?

[Skybird]

The West got weaker and Russia got weaker. Now Russia reinforces, since years, with the West focussing on getting weaker (over financial and social and illusionary issues). Russia was no serious enemy in the past 20 years. But it could become that again if the ratio in strength between Europe and Russia reverses again and then the gap becomes too big.

Europe seems determined to let it widen. Right now it already cannot honour all its NATO article 5 obligations anymore, and a turning point for defence policies is not in sight, not to mention efficient measurements. And Europe let slip by the opportunity to form real ties between Russia and the West in the past 20 years. Instead, mostly due to pressure from Washington, it saw Russia as prey to harvest. Clever! :yeah:

Russia now goes China. Bad news for the US in the far east and europe alike. Also bad for India, and Japan.

[Oberon]

The Catch-22 is that military equipment is not cheap. :dead:

[antikristuseke]

Ask the Baltic states, they're not as confident that Russia will stay in Russia. :O:
I don't see it as a question of if they invade, it's a question of when. Would be happy to be wrong in this though.

[XabbaRus]

Really? Sorry I think that's paranoia. Putin hasn't made any indications of wanting to take the Baltic states. He knows being part of NATO what will happen.

[antikristuseke]

To be fair, I have little to no confidence in NATO

[TarJak]

Meanwhile Ukraine's very own Willy Wonka, Petro Poroshenko has won the presidential election:http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-26/ukraine-presidential-poll-poroshenko-victory/5476738

[Schroeder]

To be fair, I have little to no confidence in NATO
Likewise. I can't see Germany to go to a full scale war over Estonia. Sounds bad but that's what it is. There will be sanctions, a few token forces sent to the other border nations, big words and that's it. Europe isn't willing to go to a really big war with thousands of casualties anymore.

[Oberon]

Likewise. I can't see Germany to go to a full scale war over Estonia. Sounds bad but that's what it is. There will be sanctions, a few token forces sent to the other border nations, big words and that's it. Europe isn't willing to go to a really big war with thousands of casualties anymore.

I don't think that it would really have much of a choice. Unless it decided to leave NATO in which case it would leave itself isolated and without military support.

[Oberon]

Fighting around Donets'k, aircraft (Su-24, MiG-29) and helicopters (Mi-24) active in the area. Gunfire audible on this livestream:

http://ukrstream.tv/en/stream/kharkiv_nazhivo_2#.U4MwFSirHFn

[Jimbuna]

Hopefully any action will be measured and not excessive or Russia may change from what is looking like a passive style of understanding over the past couple of days.

[Skybird]

I don't think that it would really have much of a choice. Unless it decided to leave NATO in which case it would leave itself isolated and without military support.
Article 5 is forumlated to leavce a wide gat5e open for interpretation and word-turning. All member states as a matter of fact are free to decide how to react to any "incident".

what Article 5 means to imply and what people understand it as, by popular myth - and what it really states, are two very different things.

*****
Article 4

The Parties will consult together whenever, in the opinion of any of them, the territorial integrity, political independence or security of any of the Parties is threatened.
Article 5

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.
Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security .


*********


The formulations to watch out for are "individually and in concert with the other Parties", and especially "such actions as it deems necessary".



This open a can of worms farting interpretations and arguments. You know how this kind of game is played by bureaucrats and sophisters. If Germany "deems necessary" to fall back to other, "more promising" options to support the attacked member and solve the crisis, then it may be so. That military options must be the consequence, is just one of several options countries can chose.


Do you really believe that any nation would have signed that treaty back then if that meant that in case of an attack it gives up all national sovereignty over its choice on how to react to that? If so then you know nations and governments not well. ;)


It's word gaming, yes, I know. But that is what it was designed to be, right that: to leave open the option to weasel out of treaty obligations by playing word games. Must not necessarily the option chosen by a NATO member. But leaves open the option to chose that way.



Happens all the time in politics. Ask the Ukrainians and the guarantees given to them by France, Britain, the US and Russia in return for them giving up nuclear weapons. Legally, these guarantees were binding. But to what outcome now?

Anyhow, what should be done by NATO, and what could be done by NATO, are two totally different pairs of shoes. I have strong doubts that the German forces are in the shape for waging a major war against a determined Russian attack.

[Jimbuna]

TBH I've been long of the opinion that nothing much has changed in mainland Europe since the end of WWII and I suspect if the chips were ever layed down and the UK was attacked the US are possibly the only ally we could really count on.

[Oberon]

I think France might jump into the gap, at the very least under the current government, and Poland maybe, but otherwise, you're probably right Jim.

[Skybird]

TBH I've been long of the opinion that nothing much has changed in mainland Europe since the end of WWII and I suspect if the chips were ever layed down and the UK was attacked the US are possibly the only ally we could really count on.

Logical, in case of an attack on Europe, Britain gets conquered first. It's so terribly exposed. :D The Russians just bypass Poland, Denmark, Germany and the Netherlands and fly and swim their invasion troops right to the cliffs of Dover. :D And then poor Germany gets mauled from the rear.

[Catfish]

^ Or the reason for anyone to attack just of all England.
Sure not Russia, and if not, who else ?

Or is it "First England and then the whole .. Faroer Islands?" ;)

[Alex]

Meanwhile Ukraine's very own Willy Wonka, Petro Poroshenko has won the presidential election:http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-26/ukraine-presidential-poll-poroshenko-victory/5476738
An oligarch (Poroshenko) replaces another oligarch (Yanukovich).
Much ado about nothing.
Hopefully those useful idiots from that Maidan stuff are still happy. :Kaleun_Party: :Kaleun_Applaud:
A brilliant revolution, really, in the end it made Putin able to act the way he wanted to.
Those damned WaffenSS just spread terror before getting dissolved, in fact, while NATO failed to reach any goal. :hmm2:

The fact Poro got elected is some good news in the end though.
1. Now Yats and Timochenko are out - maybe she will serve her sentence in prison, 2. the one who's been elected is an atlanticist sitting on two chairs - hopefully a détente is coming ; one thing is sure : if they don't want to get on Putin's wrong side, they better not host on their soil a military base coming from the other side of the Atlantic, 3. it's the end of the reign of Nazis and Academi in the streets, 4. it's also the end of russophobia and overall tensions against Russia in Ukraine, 5. of course presstitutes keep saying it's a brilliant victory for the EU, doing their best to keep up appearances. http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/134614bouffonn.gif

Conclusion : a few months ago, a few thousands people paid by the CIA drove Yanukovich from power, who was an elected president both pro-Europe and a friend of Putin... We might as well say the one in power now is a new Yanukovich who's going to try to remain at peace with Russia while doing the necessary to get his country integrated in the EU being into its actual status/final days, Ukraine being the poorest country in eastern Europe, heavily in debt, waiting for Germany to bail it out of its problems.

All in all, the Z kommando won a victory looking much like a defeat. :hmm2:
What ? No, you can find only two persons in this photo, there's nobody on the right. :)
http://www.heberger-image.fr/data/images/78789_p.jpg

[Jimbuna]

Logical, in case of an attack on Europe, Britain gets conquered first. It's so terribly exposed. :D The Russians just bypass Poland, Denmark, Germany and the Netherlands and fly and swim their invasion troops right to the cliffs of Dover. :D And then poor Germany gets mauled from the rear.

^ Or the reason for anyone to attack just of all England.
Sure not Russia, and if not, who else ?

Or is it "First England and then the whole .. Faroer Islands?" ;)

I doubt Germany has done anything but put France in a major European pole position (Europe-wise) in recent years.

[Catfish]

I'm not sure i understand you ?

I am sorry but France was at arms all along still after WW2, since Indo-China, Korea, Algeria, all over Africa. Not to mention interventions by the Légion Etrangère.

So you think anyone wants to attack France, where its homeland lies ? Through Germany ? By sea ?
I think not.

[MGR1]

Meanwhile, back in Ukraine, they vote in a pro-EU President whilst the people of Europe are voting no to the EU.

Ukraine has no luck.....

Mike.:hmm2:

[TarJak]

And he launches air strikes against the separate oats:http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-26/ukraine-carries-out-airstrikes-against-pro-russian-separatists/5479530

Way to settle things peacefully.

[MGR1]

Willy Wonkavich speak with forked tongue.....

Mike.

[August]

Conclusion : a few months ago, a few thousands people paid by the CIA drove Yanukovich from power

:roll: You can't seriously believe this, do you?

[MGR1]

:roll: You can't seriously believe this, do you?

He's not the only one. From what I've seen on various other forums across the 'Net he's not unique in that belief.:hmmm:

Edit: Quite a few are American - usually from amongst Obama's "detractors".

Mike.

[August]

He's not the only one. From what I've seen on various other forums across the 'Net he's not unique in that belief.:hmmm:

Mike.

Amazing that anyone would swallow such crude propaganda.

[August]

Edit: Quite a few are American - usually from amongst Obama's "detractors".

That's even harder to believe. I'd say most conservatives would think Obama is far too incompetent for such Machiavellian schemes especially on such a large scale.

More to the point, what would be his motivation? It's not like he gives a hoot about NATO.

[MGR1]

That's even harder to believe. I'd say most conservatives would think Obama is far too incompetent for such Machiavellian schemes especially on such a large scale.

More to the point, what would be his motivation? It's not like he gives a hoot about NATO.

Unfortunately I can't isolate the individual posts due to the forum structure, but have a wade through this:

http://forums.davidweber.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=5252

The poster "namelessfly" is the one to pay attention to. He's a Palin-obsessed Christian-Right TEA Party Republican Neo-Isolationist from Oregon. Oh, and Tenshinai as well, though he's Swedish.

Mike.

[August]

The poster "namelessfly" is the one to pay attention to. He's a Palin-obsessed Christian-Right TEA Party Republican Neo-Isolationist from Oregon. Oh, and Tenshinai as well, though he's Swedish.

I checked it out. Obvious troll is rather obvious wouldn't you say? :yep:

[MGR1]

I checked it out. Obvious troll is rather obvious wouldn't you say? :yep:

Oh, yes - ever so slightly!:03:

Mike.:)

[Tribesman]

:roll: You can't seriously believe this, do you?
Compared to his usual global conspiracy theories that one is quite mild.

[Schroeder]

Amazing that anyone would swallow such crude propaganda.
It's easy to swallow stuff you want to believe.:-?
Some people will blame everything on the people they dislike.

[Jimbuna]

The Ukraine government have retaken Donetsk Airport.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27584718

[Dmitry Markov]

Conclusion : a few months ago, a few thousands people paid by the CIA drove Yanukovich from power, who was an elected president both pro-Europe and a friend of Putin... We might as well say the one in power now is a new Yanukovich who's going to try to remain at peace with Russia while doing the necessary to get his country integrated in the EU being into its actual status/final days, Ukraine being the poorest country in eastern Europe, heavily in debt, waiting for Germany to bail it out of its problems.


Actually, there weren't thousands - during the active phase there were "only" about 600 or 800 trained hitmen directly on Maidan - the ones who were burning Berkut officers and administration buildings. So it could be possible to pay them even from depleting purse of the CIA.
Personally, I don't think CIA directly sponsored (read: gave money) this coup d'etats - Poroshenko and Kolomoisky did. Although if we take into account some circumstances like: regular visits of Brennan in Kiev, the whole 5-th floor of Ukrainian Security Service building being occupied by CIA "consultants" (sounds very Southern Vietnam-like doesn't it?), Biden's son being promoted as member of Director Council in Ukrainian oil company - all this may lead a person to some conclusions...

As for Poroshenko - don't know how can he want " to normalize relations with Russia in three months" calling airstrikes and artillery on people in Donetsk, Slavyansk, Kramatorsk? Or he thinks all that we care for are our gas money that Ukraine doesn't pay - and if he pays everything would be OK? (Although I don't reject the possibility that our government can make such a deal - but in this case the support of people it has now would vanish)

I don't think there could be any "normalization" untill Kiev withdraws Nazi-Guards (as people in South-East or Novorossia call Kiev's forces) and army.

All that IMHO of course.

[kranz]

I don't think there could be any "normalization" untill Kiev withdraws Nazi-Guards (as people in South-East or Novorossia call Kiev's forces) and army.

All that IMHO of course.

Nor do I, but the problem is that Kiev shouldn't allow pro-russian terrorist to run loose in Ukrainian cities.
Besides, why would they withdraw their forces from their own territory?
I understand you might have been brainwashed by the Russian propaganda but that doesn't mean you are allowed to spread it here. ('Novorossia').

[Skybird]

Of course the CIA has had its hands in the events back then, and also: now. That's part of its job. And the visit of the CIA boss some weeks ago in the Ukraine, also has not been just an exchange of meaningless profanities.

As far as Russia and America are concerned, Washington wanted NATO camping in Sewastopol, and the Kremlin told Washington where to shove that daydream. That's what it all comes down to by the end of the day.

[August]

I guess the old soviet era joke about "Pravda means truth" has lost none of it's luster.

There was no CIA paid army of agitators in Ukraine. What you have heard is nothing but Russian propaganda to excuse it's illegal land grab of a neighboring country. Really it's straight out of the old Soviet playbook. They put out the same "pravda" during the Hungarian and Czechoslovakian uprisings of the 1950's almost word for word.

[antikristuseke]

"в Правде нет известий, в Известиях нет правды" - In the Truth there is no news, and in the News there is no truth
That phrase comes much closer

[Oberon]

I'd have said the CIA and SIS were (and are) in the Ukraine, they'd not be doing their respective jobs if they weren't, but if they had any guiding role in events it was reactive only. This event has been brewing since the last president was overthrown, and I am fairly certain that within the next couple of years unless the new oligarch takes drastic steps to appease his supporters that he will also be out on the street.

Looking at it from a strategic point of view, what gains are there for the US if the Ukraine joins NATO? NATO has the Black sea under control through Turkey membership (although admittedly one could draw concerns about the reliability of Turkey with the current leadership) and taking the Ukraine would not throw Russia out of the Black Sea since it already has other naval bases under construction to replace the facilities at Sevastopol. It makes no strategic sense other than perhaps a buffer zone against any Russian move against Western Europe which as we've already pointed out in this thread, is not exactly likely.

So no, although it's very likely that the US and EU forces have exploited this situation for their benefit, I really don't see that it's likely that they started it.

[CCIP]

Likewise, you can't say Russia hasn't exploited the situation to their full benefit, and the notion that CIA was behind coordinating this is far more advantageous to the Russians than it could ever be to the Americans. I couldn't think of a more perfect boost for Putin's domestic image than a nefarious Western conspiracy against Russia actually turning out to be 100% true. By the same token, of course, I couldn't imagine a more perfect boost to the Ukrainian government than a Russian conspiracy turning out to be 100% true. But the US? No, really not much to be gained for them given the messiness of the whole situation.

[Oberon]

Likewise, you can't say Russia hasn't exploited the situation to their full benefit, and the notion that CIA was behind coordinating this is far more advantageous to the Russians than it could ever be to the Americans. I couldn't think of a more perfect boost for Putin's domestic image than a nefarious Western conspiracy against Russia actually turning out to be 100% true.

Absolutely, the Ukraine has been a sort of proxy battleground between two spheres of influence, the east and the west. It's not the first time we've seen this happen in history, and it's not going to be the last. Neither side may have started events rolling, but they're damned if they're not going to capitalise on them once they have. :yep:

[CCIP]

Yeah, which also brings me back to the other thing too - again, I really don't believe there's any Russian conspiracy, just opportunism of the sort we already saw Putin's Russia engaging in for years, just on a much bigger and more daring scale. I think the idea that there's some sort of neo-Soviet agenda behind it is baseless. It's just taking advantage of present-day circumstances. Any government with a strong mandate that's feeling pretty secure with internal stabilty and in absence of strong external threats to their country would act like that in the situation - just realpolitik and basic sphere of influence.

[TarJak]

Provokatzia (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-18/campbell-wilesmith-behind-russias-audacious-land-grab/5327874) by Ukraine: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-27/ukraine-crisis-50-suspected-killed-in-donetsk-clashes/5482072

Its definitely looking like it will get worse a lot more before it gets better.

[Oberon]

Indeed, I've always been loathe to draw similarities between Putin and the Soviet Union, there's no real ideological comparison to make. If anything I'd put him more towards the Tsars than the Premiers, but even then it's shakey.

Honestly I'd say that in this whole Ukrainian situation, Putin has been on the back foot, I think he hoped that the Ukrainian government would be able to defeat the protesters and when it couldn't he was forced to do something he didn't want to do and that's rely on hard power rather than soft power with the threat of hard power. Now he's played his card and brought a ton of scorn and sanctions on Russia, and he's loathe to play the military card again, which is why we're not seeing T-80s rolling through Donetsk yet.

That being said, there's a cassus belli on a silver plate being served by the Ukrainian military at the moment so the option is still on the table, but Russia has seemingly gone into reverse at the moment which is odd for a nation that supposedly holds all the aces. :hmmm:

[TarJak]

I'm not sure many would agree with him being on the back foot through the whole mess. I think he's probably brought forward some contingencies for the circumstances and also taken advantage of the disunity in Ukraine, particularly in the Crimea land grab.

You're bang on about the cassus beli that Ukraine has just handed them though.

[HunterICX]

That being said, there's a cassus belli on a silver plate being served by the Ukrainian military at the moment so the option is still on the table, but Russia has seemingly gone into reverse at the moment which is odd for a nation that supposedly holds all the aces. :hmmm:

Well the fat lady hasn't sung yet and I wouldn't try to push my luck.

[Skybird]

I guess the old soviet era joke about "Pravda means truth" has lost none of it's luster.

There was no CIA paid army of agitators in Ukraine. What you have heard is nothing but Russian propaganda to excuse it's illegal land grab of a neighboring country. Really it's straight out of the old Soviet playbook. They put out the same "pravda" during the Hungarian and Czechoslovakian uprisings of the 1950's almost word for word.
Of course it could not be what in your patriotic selfunderstanding should not be. Also, if the CIA guys were there, proud defenders of freedom, truth and honesty that they are they would have worn a shiny armour so bright that they would have lit up like a light towers in the night, easy to be be identified by that. :D

[Skybird]

I'd have said the CIA and SIS were (and are) in the Ukraine, they'd not be doing their respective jobs if they weren't, but if they had any guiding role in events it was reactive only. This event has been brewing since the last president was overthrown, and I am fairly certain that within the next couple of years unless the new oligarch takes drastic steps to appease his supporters that he will also be out on the street.

Looking at it from a strategic point of view, what gains are there for the US if the Ukraine joins NATO? NATO has the Black sea under control through Turkey membership (although admittedly one could draw concerns about the reliability of Turkey with the current leadership) and taking the Ukraine would not throw Russia out of the Black Sea since it already has other naval bases under construction to replace the facilities at Sevastopol. It makes no strategic sense other than perhaps a buffer zone against any Russian move against Western Europe which as we've already pointed out in this thread, is not exactly likely.

It's a.) poking the Russians in their patriotic eye, and b.) staying committed to US strategy of encircling Russia, and China. They did so since the end of the cold war. Also, from the Crimean you are closer to the Russian border, an d have better radar control of and ELINT options in the whole area.

[Skybird]

Yeah, which also brings me back to the other thing too - again, I really don't believe there's any Russian conspiracy, just opportunism of the sort we already saw Putin's Russia engaging in for years, just on a much bigger and more daring scale. I think the idea that there's some sort of neo-Soviet agenda behind it is baseless. It's just taking advantage of present-day circumstances. Any government with a strong mandate that's feeling pretty secure with internal stabilty and in absence of strong external threats to their country would act like that in the situation - just realpolitik and basic sphere of influence.

Putin started to plan for playing tough in autumn, and that was the time when signs showed that Yanukovich at last appeared to become weak maybe, no longer decisively standing up against possibly joining the EU (and by that sooner or later NATO).

Mind you also that the Ukraine is dancing on the Kremlin's nosetiup since years and years, especially regarding the gas deals. The Ukraine did nothing in the past 20 yearsa to moidernise its national heating system and thgus is desperately depending on gas, which it can only afford to buy in the needed amounts if it gets a price dramatically below market levels - at Russia's tremendous costs. Also, the oliogarchs in the Ukraine more and more claimed parts of polltical infoluence and contro, for them and their - partially cirminal - business interests. Well, that cannot be in the interest of any hegemonial power inb the region, and rememeber how Putin cracked down on the olio9garchs in ruzssia wehen they threatened to take over the state and bypassing the Krenmlin - he exec uted several examples and suddenly they all fell back into line. Message of it all: do you profit-enriching stuff as long as you want, but do not dare to get in the way of the Kremlin's policy-making: you play by Kremlin rules, or you won't play at all.

The Crimea was non-negotiable form the Russians' point of view, for reasons of national history, pride, and Sevastopol. The Ukrainian East howeder was not automatcially ion Putin'S shopping list, because it would cause a whole heap of bills and costs if it became Russia's responsibility to economically and financially maintain it. What Putin wanted more is to weaken a united Ukraine and to prevent a strong central government, securing s strong Russian influence in Ukrainian internal policy-making that way. And that goal he has reached. To leave the Eastern provinces to the responsibility of Kiev, is only clever. It leaves Kiew weaker than without the East, because the East now isan open, bleeding wound in its side, doing more damage that way than if taking the East away. Also, it gives greater headaches to the EU, especially financially.

What Putin does, is classical power projection on all levels. Morals play no role in that. The danger he risks is that the people in the East will turn away in disappointment when they realise that Russia is not coming to their "rescue" like on the Crimean. They could feel sold and betrayed.

[Oberon]

It's a.) poking the Russians in their patriotic eye, and b.) staying committed to US strategy of encircling Russia, and China. They did so since the end of the cold war. Also, from the Crimean you are closer to the Russian border, an d have better radar control of and ELINT options in the whole area.

I can see the temptation in a) but I can't see the west falling for that, not when Russia has the ability to retun the favour three times over, although the encircling tactic is certainly true, but that mostly took place back when Russia was going through its Yeltsin phase and could barely afford to invade Serbia, let alone the Baltic states.

Radar and ELINT is also a fair point, but if that was the goal then the planned ABM radar system in Poland wouldn't have been shelved. :hmmm:

[MH]

Of course it could not be what in your patriotic selfunderstanding should not be. Also, if the CIA guys were there, proud defenders of freedom, truth and honesty that they are they would have worn a shiny armour so bright that they would have lit up like a light towers in the night, easy to be be identified by that. :D

...That is not the issue at all.
I find it funny how people like to turn everything into those overmaster conspiracies.
Assuming there was CIA involvement it does not change the fact that there must had been great infrastructure for all this events to happen.
Weather such involvement is just or not is another issue but yes people love those ...and build entire reasoning upon this.
Assuming CIA was involved , the general disappointment with the Ukrainians about how the country is run must had been there for very long , otherwise it would not work.
The Ukrainians , not only the CIA agents...assuming there had been any.. went to the streets to face the corruption and poor living conditions - people want change.
When it comes to eastern Europe ; change , freedom or prosperity is still associated with the west...well...Skybirdy you may disagree lol
Russia on another hand with misery , so yes CIA may have had fertile ground there lol
Russia has nothing to offer really... yet..who knows...that is why its influence spans mostly on third world countries.


When it comes to western Ukraine it historically sees itself with Europe , not Russia.
The eastern part is mixed bunch , the ethnic Russians had nothing to lose but vote for Russia due to Russia having slightly better economy , naturally patriotic reasons must not be dismissed too.
I would not be surprised for California voting to join Mexico if economic situation reversed.:haha:
Mabe KGB can make it happen as it is....
As far as I know discrimination toward Russians is or at least was utter bollox and if it did happen it only further supports the fact about how Ukrainians disassociate themselves from Russia..contrary to some claims about Ukrainian hegemony vs western overlord messing with it
Yet it is most likely that with all that is going on right now the ugly side of ethnic issues will rise to the surface on both sides.
At the end of the day the longer this mess lasts the ugliest it may get.
As usual..regular folks will stay home and extremist roam and Putin gaining
legitimacy for more serious intervention.
The civilization part you guys play is very cool but it would be interesting to know what general people in Ukraine think about it all...
Not those nutty ones...there is nothing funnier and at the same time pathetic than Ukrainian uber nazi or skinhead.

[August]

Of course it could not be what in your patriotic selfunderstanding should not be. Also, if the CIA guys were there, proud defenders of freedom, truth and honesty that they are they would have worn a shiny armour so bright that they would have lit up like a light towers in the night, easy to be be identified by that. :D

MH has already explained it to you pretty well. I am not claiming there were no CIA agents in Ukraine, there's a few stationed at every embassy including Kiev I'm sure, but the idea that they paid a hundreds or thousands of agitators to create the whole movement that overthrew the previous government is complete balderdash.

Personally i'm kind of surprised that you seem so willing to swallow such obvious Russian propaganda Skybird.

[Oberon]

MH has already explained it to you pretty well. I am not claiming there were no CIA agents in Ukraine, there's a few stationed at every embassy including Kiev I'm sure, but the idea that they paid a hundreds or thousands of agitators to create the whole movement that overthrew the previous government is complete balderdash.

Personally i'm kind of surprised that you seem so willing to swallow such obvious Russian propaganda Skybird.

I think that it's not that it is Russian propaganda, more that it is anti-American propaganda, which seems to be in vogue again in certain circles. :rolleyes:

[CCIP]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27618681

Pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine have shot down a military helicopter near Sloviansk, killing 14 people, the country's outgoing president says.

Olexander Turchynov says a general was among the dead

:nope:

Alright, who out there is still not calling this a civil war? :/\\!!

[Oberon]

A Ukrainian general is said to be one of the dead, quite a coup for the pro-Russian forces. Alleged sightings of Vostok battalion forces in Donetsk as well, with some tensions supposedly between them and the pro-Russians already in the area. Could be that Putin is looking to the Vostok forces to regain control over the pro-Russian militia.

All unconfirmed, of course.

[Jimbuna]

President Turchchynov said the 14 dead included Gen Serhiy Kulchytskiy, head of combat and special training for Ukraine's National Guard.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27618681

[CCIP]

I wouldn't be surprised if there was an urge to "regain control" or at least do some damage-control as far as the Donetsk militias go. Even in Russia, there's been some rather compromising imagery circulating (for posting which a blogger was arrested), showing an undated photo of the heads of the rebellion wearing uniforms with Swastikas, while the Chechen president Kadyrov has been denying just a little too loudly that there's any Chechen fighters among the militia...

My sense is that there is fear even among the Russian elites that, for all their pro-Russian-ness, the current leaders of the rebellion are starting to be seen as a bit extreme. Not the kinds of people one wants to support - then again, it'd be nothing new; recall the enthusiasm with which the West got behind some of the Lybian and Syrian anti-government militias, only to recoil later when they turned out to have hardcore Islamists among them.

[Skybird]

There are extreme rightwingers active on both sides, which makes the Eastern claim to have risen because of the need to defend against the fascists in the Western government (Swoboda) a formally correct but somewhat toothless argument.

For the Kremlin, if it avoids to get drawn in by the Eastern extremists and resists taking the Eastern provinces, this is a comfortable position, it then can leave the Ukraine to being eaten up from within by TWO most extreme camps both with even more extremist rightwing factions. A Ukraine busy with itself and its own internal battles is a Ukraine unable to meet criteria for EU membership and unable to set up challenges to Moscow.

[Skybird]

MH has already explained it to you pretty well. I am not claiming there were no CIA agents in Ukraine, there's a few stationed at every embassy including Kiev I'm sure, but the idea that they paid a hundreds or thousands of agitators to create the whole movement that overthrew the previous government is complete balderdash.

Personally i'm kind of surprised that you seem so willing to swallow such obvious Russian propaganda Skybird.
Quatsch. Better stop stockpiling your own truckloads of propaganda. I am not basing on Russian sources here, but I take Russian perspectives into account. But for heavily biased onesided pro-Americans doin g that already is too much.

MH you call an explanation? I saw his remarks as some highly subjective descriptions of an image that is much bigger than the one he tried to paint.

My general advise would be to look at the Ukraine crisis without allowing emotions and pro-Western, anti-Russian prejudices distorting the thinking of your mind. If that qualifies for Oberonic interpretations of "Anti-Americanism", then I proudly confess guilty.

[Alex]

MH has already explained it to you pretty well. I am not claiming there were no CIA agents in Ukraine, there's a few stationed at every embassy including Kiev I'm sure, but the idea that they paid a hundreds or thousands of agitators to create the whole movement that overthrew the previous government is complete balderdash.

Personally i'm kind of surprised that you seem so willing to swallow such obvious Russian propaganda Skybird.
You keep sticking your nose in the official press all the time, August. And I'm kind of amazed everytime I notice you (and a lot of other people coming from your country and the West I met on other forums) think you're living in "the country of freedom", that's almost touching ; and to say that the world has been thinking you live in that country of freedom, while any propaganda is supposed to come only from Russia, China, Iran or whatever...

I swear it's just unbelievable how much the inhabitants of that large country being the world champion in terms of bombing and war crime atrocities still think they have any credibility on this kind of issues you're talking about. Not even trying to sound harsh or disrespectful, just being honest there.

Since the Afghanistan war against the Soviets, many autors revealed the role of the US in financing international terrorism, you know. It was all just not recognized by Washington. And it happens that a decisive step was taken against Syria last february, in fact : the congress voted for the funding of 2 organisations representing Alkaida.
You could say that what was an open secret until then suddenly changed into the official policy of the country of freedom : terrorism.

According to the western media, that conflict in the Middle East takes place between 1. countries gathered around Washington and Saudi Arabia pretending to defend democracy and lead the global fight against terrorism... And 2. Syria and her russian allies, being discredited in western propaganda as countries using terrorism to achieve their goals, or something like that.
Now everyone knows how much SA is not really a democracy, but much more an absolute monarchy one could describe without any praise. Yet the US want to appear as a democracy, and want to be recognized as the country of freedom, if I'm not mistaken.
And it happens that this country of freedom didn't hear much about that news related to the congress meeting secretly to vote "yes" to the funding of bringing weapons to syrian rebels until next september, eh. Yes, you read it well, that bloody congress of yours meets secretly now and then and the national american press is kind of not allowed to mention it. That's why that info published by the british agency Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/27/us-usa-syria-rebels-idUSBREA0Q1S320140127) was willingly let aside by the american newspapers and television, and all western media in Europe too. Only the rest of the world has got to hear about that in the news, obviously.
Yet freedom of expression and the right of citizen to informations may well be some important principles in a democracy, I think most agree with that. In that case, human rights are respected in Russia and Syria more than in the West, hehe.

And now people will tell me "hey man, does the fact the united states of America are world champions in that area makes Russians look like total angels for that matter" ? :hmm2:
Of course not, no one ever told this kind of thing. Wherever it's committed, and whoever is responsible for it, a massacre is and will always remain a massacre, even if the torturer is not the united states of America. True : some people fall into idolatry when it comes to Vladimir Putin to the point they deny his past and recent crimes in Chechnya and stuff like that.
True. But still, there's a big difference between the united states of America and Russia : Putin is not the one hammering home the message that Russia is a democracy and that everyone of his acts are driven by human-rightsism, so he's more honest than the West and Israel in that area. Putin fairly admits he's standing up for the interests of Russia, and that is why state interventions of that country don't go beyond Russia's border. Unlike the Americans and the British on all five continents.

Other than that : check this out (http://youtu.be/F7ASHvWEXbc) a little bit if you have some time. Politically oriented ? It is, just like most news you read and watch everyday. :03:

[Skybird]

Russia, Belarus and Kasachstan have signed a treaty that is seen as the starting shot for an economy union that enhances the existing customs union. Kirgisia and Tajikistan are to follow. Originally, Ukraine was planned by Moscow to join as well.

Economically, this new union for the forseeable future will have not much potency, but that is not the point anyway. It's real main purpose is is the forming of a new united currency that will rival Euro and Dollar. This should be seen in combination with the new warming of Russian-Chinese relations, the latest deal between the two, China's strategy to get rid of the dollar as well and talks about forming a Russian-Asian economy sphere - again with the main purpose to get rid of the dollar.

Prohibition to do certain key deals of economics (especially oil and gas) in dollar currency, will be the next step. Which will make OPEC think about abandoning the dollar-link, too - necessarily.

Since the cure to the financial disaster haunting the West and the globe necessarily is the collapse of the current fiscal system and the rule of Dollar and Europe, I de facto - and without favouring any political ideology here - welcome these steps. When the destruction of Euro and Dollar (with all the mayhem that will bring) nevertheless is not only necessary, but inevitable anyway - why protracting it, then? Th em ore time China is being given to prepare this step, the stronger it will become from it. So better is to have it happening early, so that their gain is as small as possible.

[Oberon]

Oberonic interpretations of "Anti-Americanism", then I proudly confess guilty.

It's the almost gleeful way that you hoover up pro-Russian media, then tell others to not be biased which confuses me. :hmmm:

[Skybird]

It's the almost gleeful way that you hoover up pro-Russian media, then tell others to not be biased which confuses me. :hmmm:
You just need to stand far enough on the one side of a crowd, then all others appear to stand on the other side.

Even those standing in the middle, or not caring for sides.

The Western standpoint in all this is extremely emotional, and leaves plenty to be desired in cold blood, and reason. And that is why everybody not sharing the hot-blooded sentiments appears to be "pro-Russian" for the sake of being pro-Russian. I am not. I understand that Russia's perspective and interests are not what the West wants it to define as, and I understand how twisted the Western views are, on so many levels. Any Wetsern attempt to define Russia'S interests, are not Russia'S interests, but the West'S interests. That is what Washington, and others, notoriously lie about.

That's enough to make me a heretic, and "anti-American". In fact I am neither a friend of the political actor called USA, nor of Russia. And my country suffers more financial and economic damages from acts and policies run by America, than of Russia or China (due to dollar and espionage).

You have to forgive, but the times I saw America as a natural ally who stands beyond doubt and only acts on behalf of all that is of goodness and of light in the world, are long since over. I remind of Jack Kornblum, former ambassador of the US to Germany, who put it best some months ago: "We are no friends, we are partners. Nations have no friendships, nations have interests." And this partner in some issues, rival in others, enemy in some, that the US is for Germany today, is talking as split-tongued acts as conspiratory and plays as dirty as any other nation there is. No sign of holiness anywhere. America is no moral compass for the world anymore. And one could ask if it ever was - maybe it was more an utopia than a reality.

I prefer that sober view of things any time to the pathetic and sentimental babbling that politicians give you when they hold a summit and smile into the cameras. It took Kornblum the resignation from all his official obligations before he came up with that simple truth from his lips. I can only advise everybody: take the man by his words.

[Skybird]

I am gleeful in one aspect, however, and I do not hide it: I like to see the EU's narcissistic follies exploding into its face.

After all, I too am just human. :smug:

[Oberon]

You have a anti-west sentiment that would humble a jihadist, that much is sure. :hmmm:

But you seem to refuse to see anything on the American side of the fence, sure I think only a handful of people in this thread are claiming that America and Europe are apostles of mercy, but you seem to be on the side of the fence that is blaming everything on America and the west. Perhaps it is your intense hatred of the EU and western capitalism which is affecting the way in which you present your arguments? :hmmm:

[August]

You have a anti-west sentiment that would humble a jihadist, that much is sure. :hmmm:

But you seem to refuse to see anything on the American side of the fence, sure I think only a handful of people in this thread are claiming that America and Europe are apostles of mercy, but you seem to be on the side of the fence that is blaming everything on America and the west. Perhaps it is your intense hatred of the EU and western capitalism which is affecting the way in which you present your arguments? :hmmm:
I'm sure he'll tell you that your wrong.

[HunterICX]

http://i.imgur.com/8z4tjpZ.jpg?1

I hope you know what you're getting yourself into.

[Betonov]

My Moldavian co-worker says the Russians will atack.
I think he may be overestimating Putin but he's prety sure about it.

[Skybird]

To compare my determination with the of a jihadist, is an offence. I am in strong defence of many historical aspects, gains and benefits of Western history, culture and tradition, in many different discussions, from Islam, over ethics and culture, to science, And when doiung that I often have been attacked for doing that because they are in opposition to many of the perverted interpretations of these in modern times; and when I imply or criticise or point out that the modern west is just a perverted shadow of that, rotting within and already smelling like dead fish, having corrupted the values it claims to stand for and plotting course for its own collapse - you call that the mindset of murderous barbar who got his head stuck in primitive medieval mindsets and power fantasies and murderous hate for humanity and humanism?

Check your own credulity. By the ring in your nose you allow them to lead you around in the manege, that is your freedom; and you applaud the regime that feeds your appetite for wallowing group emotions and pathos and glorious symbols with nothing behind them than abuse, that is your democratic choice; and you prevent yourself from ever questioning the limits of thinking they have declared in order to secure their power over you and their interests at your costs: that is your reason. Congratulations, you are the ideal citizen and subject.

Next, please specify where in the context of this thread - Ukraine's crisis - I said it is all America's fault.

I said not more and not less than - summarising now - that America (and the West) has had its hands plunged deep into the muddy waters, helping to stirr what already was not clean Ukrainian water anymore, that expectations of how Russia would react, were misled (and very foolishly so), and that one was not prepared at all for the reaction the Russians showed up with. It seems to me that many Western politicians until today have not understood in how far their own arrogance have encouraged and triggered the Russian response, not since last year's autumn, not since the last twenty years. Wanting to bring the Ukraine into the EU, and NATO in the wake of that, was a plot so stupidly thought out that one should not really need to leave any more words of explanations about it. real or ust imagined morals and ethics, wishes and intentions for better or for worse have nothing, NOTHING, to do with it. It's more about the political equivalent to elemental physics. If you throw the apple up into the air it sooner or later reverse, and falls back to the ground. Is that so difficult to see in advance?

What I now laugh about is that many stood there, staring into the sky while expecting the apple to fly higher and higher and up and away. Instead it fell back and hit them right between their teeth and makes them look like a walking grin two meter wide. The laughing is at the idiots - and they deserve every single decibel of it. :yeah:

This, not more and not less, is what I hold the West and America responsible for, this, and the notorious anti-Russian paranoia that America has been maintaining since the end of the cold war - and that after 20 years finally has indeed revived and created the old rival again that Americans so desperately have looked out and wished for. There were chances to form closer ties with Russia, after the early 90s. And we decided to let them go by in an bid for tightening our grip on Russia and our short-term business profits. That we would do so only at the cost of trading away our trustworthiness and credibility, is something that one was not conered for. And Russia learned the harsh lessons twenty years ago.

All that does not qualify for an assessment of having helped to keep the pressure inside the Ukrainian cooker. The unrest even may be welcomed by those hoping that in a turmoil the Russians could be driven out and EU and NATO moving in. If you think hoping so would be cynical, then you have not realsied the heart and core of political business. There is no room for sentimentalities - not even cynism. Politics is about power. Putin understands that. Many Gutmenschen in the West do not.

[Oberon]

http://i.imgur.com/8z4tjpZ.jpg?1

I hope you know what you're getting yourself into.

I'm doing it again, aren't I? I keep trying not to, but then I find myself doing it again and again. What is this madness? :nope:


My Moldavian co-worker says the Russians will atack.
I think he may be overestimating Putin but he's prety sure about it.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised, I thought that Russia wouldn't go for Crimea, but then they did, so I'm not ruling anything out any more.
I presume he refers to Eastern Ukraine, and not Moldovia.
It would not surprise me in the least to see Russian forces move in, but I honestly don't think that they'll need to just yet, just keep funnelling arms and funds into the pro-Russian militia to keep the thing bubbling away. I think that if Russia moves into eastern Ukraine then NATO would be sorely tempted to move into western Ukraine and that's a situation that neither side wants, so it's better for Russia to just keep the temperature of the situation at around the level it is right now.
I have a suspicion that Putin temporarily lost control of the pro-Russian forces in eastern Ukraine, and that's why the alledged Vostok forces have arrived, to beat a few heads and restore things to the Moscow line. Time will tell if the pro-Russian forces start changing their game. :hmmm:

[Betonov]

I presume he refers to Eastern Ukraine, and not Moldovia.


:yep:

[HunterICX]

I'm doing it again, aren't I? I keep trying not to, but then I find myself doing it again and again. What is this madness? :nope:

Something not even a trapdoor can fix apparently :hmm2:

[Tribesman]

You have a anti-west sentiment that would humble a jihadist, that much is sure. :hmmm:

But you seem to refuse to see anything on the American side of the fence, sure I think only a handful of people in this thread are claiming that America and Europe are apostles of mercy, but you seem to be on the side of the fence that is blaming everything on America and the west. Perhaps it is your intense hatred of the EU and western capitalism which is affecting the way in which you present your arguments? :hmmm:
Mr hammer hits Mr nail squarely on the head.:yep:

To compare my determination with the of a jihadist, is an offence.
The truth is not an offence.
It might be uncomfortable truth for you but it is true non the less.
Though I would go further and say that with your weird extremist ideologies you are a jihadist of the extreme fundamentalist wahibi flavour.

[MH]

I am not. I understand that Russia's perspective and interests are not what the West wants it to define as, and I understand how twisted the Western views are, on so many levels. Any Wetsern attempt to define Russia'S interests, are not Russia'S interests, but the West'S interests. That is what Washington, and others, notoriously lie about.
No worries we all know that at the end of the day it is about the interests.
But you know...some times geopolitical interest go hand in hand with local ones.
Nothing wrong with that.
It seems that Russians' ones conflict with the local in this case.
Most Ukrainian folks seem to understand that sticking with the west might be more beneficial to them besides the national issue.




"We are no friends, we are partners. Nations have no friendships, nations have interests." And this partner in some issues, rival in others, enemy in some, that the US is for Germany today, is talking as split-tongued acts as conspiratory and plays as dirty as any other nation there is. No sign of holiness anywhere. America is no moral compass for the world anymore. And one could ask if it ever was - maybe it was more an utopia than a reality.
It is all real politics then.
You should have no problem with that no?
Germany is one of the most dominant European courtiers due to the fact that it was seen as good strategy.
Due to political interest if you will...so enjoy.

[jokker]

Check your own credulity. By the ring in your nose you allow them to lead you around in the manege, that is your freedom; and you applaud the regime that feeds your appetite for wallowing group emotions and pathos and glorious symbols with nothing behind them than abuse, that is your democratic choice; and you prevent yourself from ever questioning the limits of thinking they have declared in order to secure their power over you and their interests at your costs: that is your reason. Congratulations, you are the ideal citizen and subject.

What I now laugh about is that many stood there, staring into the sky while expecting the apple to fly higher and higher and up and away. Instead it fell back and hit them right between their teeth and makes them look like a walking grin two meter wide. The laughing is at the idiots - and they deserve every single decibel of it.


I'm late to this discussion. The ring in my nose expression is silly. My direct observation of life in Europe and North America is quite favorable on many levels. I am influenced by the fact we in the west just live a more comfortable life with benefits the majority of the world doesn't enjoy, The possibility of hard work turning into a significant degree of financial independence is pretty uncommon for most of the world population. Europe has a safely net that is second to none. America has a long tradition of independence regarding uncensored speech. Our wealthy came about by building something useful, not being connected to a party. The Russian billionaires just had the connections to gain access to the industries built with public funds. At least our billionaires created something of value for the masses.

If your successful in the west, the system over time will tax it away and distribute of the wealth to its citizens.

Rule of law prevails here. I will conceed that corruption is a universal human trait. As is greed, as are other forms of corruption especially power grabbing. In the west we at least try to rebalance the wrong, (though not being as successful as I'd want).

But we in the west (including the capitalist far east) do live with many benefits that the remainder does not. You being in Germany should know that very well. I don't get your point of view, my travels worldwide have given me a first hand view of just how good I have it.

I too was excited for Russia when Boris stood on the side of radical change. I think when the KGB cronies ended up running the government along with and supported by the robber barons, the die was cast. My belief Russia is going to turn into a oil state with a very few having substantial money and the vast majority scraping by. Massive middle class in Russia, I am doubtful it will happen. I truly hope I'm wrong.

If you're unhappy with your current situation, just move to where you admire the system

bob

[Oberon]

Something not even a trapdoor can fix apparently :hmm2:

http://csublogs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/jaws.png

"I'm gonna need a bigger door..."

[Dread Knot]

"I'm gonna need a bigger door..."

Quint says this thread has jumped the shark.

http://kipmooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Robert_Shaw_as_Quint_in_the_movie_Jaws_1976.jpg

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kuxr34jtOb1qzeu38o1_400.png

[Skybird]

EU fat cats just never learn, no matter what.

Czech EU commissioner Stefan Füle said that Ukraine, Moldavia and - tatarataa! - Georgia should become EU members.

The freakiness in EUpistan knows no limits, it seems. Georgia...? Has that fool never seen a map when visiting school? That is north-east of Turkey - that is Asia, that is the Middle East: that is anything - but not Europe! What's next? "Solving" the dispute with Iran by getting it into the EU, and Libya and why not Nigeria as well? Tajikistan maybe? Chechnya?

Needless to point out that in the same interview with German newspaper Die Welt he said that the EU should be turned into an stronger governmental and institutional framework. :dead: More dictatorship from Brussel, in other words.

Nothing can ever be achieved against such bitter determination to act and decide stupidly, arrogantly and in denial of reality. It's a psychopathology.

We need fatter cats that fart hotter farts. :hmph:

[Oberon]

http://www.globalnerdy.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/grandpa_simpson_yelling_at_cloud.jpg

[Tribesman]

EU fat cats just never learn, no matter what.

Czech EU commissioner Stefan Füle said that Ukraine, Moldavia and - tatarataa! - Georgia should become EU members.

The freakiness in EUpistan knows no limits, it seems. Georgia...? Has that fool never seen a map when visiting school? That is north-east of Turkey - that is Asia, that is the Middle East: that is anything - but not Europe! What's next? "Solving" the dispute with Iran by getting it into the EU, and Libya and why not Nigeria as well? Tajikistan maybe? Chechnya?

Needless to point out that in the same interview with German newspaper Die Welt he said that the EU should be turned into an stronger governmental and institutional framework. :dead: More dictatorship from Brussel, in other words.

Nothing can ever be achieved against such bitter determination to act and decide stupidly, arrogantly and in denial of reality. It's a psychopathology.

We need fatter cats that fart hotter farts. :hmph:
wow just wow:doh:
"Has that fool never seen a map"?
Transcontinental states.:hmmm:
Part of Georgia is indeed in Europe, it is so defined by being on the European side of the mountains. Tajikstan however is not so your rant there is additionally pointless, though Kazakhstan also is partly in Europe, as is Russia Turkey and Azerbaijan.

If you want to do a silly rant about politicians not looking at maps without looking like a complete fool look at a map:rotfl2:

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

Well looks like maybe the Russians are back off some, hopefully this is a step in the right direction. http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/nearly-all-russian-troops-ukraine-border-withdrawn-u-s-officials-n118846

[August]

Just saying...

http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/eunewlnd.gif

[Skybird]

Sure, and I can paint a map showing that the United States for example reach down to Venezuela.

The Caucasian region since centuries is seen and described - culturally and geographically - as a region where Europe has faded out and Asia has faded in. Hence the - imo already euphemistical - description of "Eurasia" - with more Asia and less Europe at best.

To claim it is "Europe" makes as much sense like saying that Syria is part of Europe.

Culturally, the region is more Middle East and Asia than anything else. The countries located there and sharing place with the region described as "Caucasian region", are Turkey, Armenia, Aserbajdjan, Russia, Georgia, Iran.

None of those countries are "Europe".

Europe to the East fades out somewhere along the territory of the Ukraine. Geographically. Culturally. Historically. And by mentality of the people in the regions.

[August]

Sure, and I can paint a map showing that the United States for example reach down to Venezuela.

When when map has even half the respect of the teaching community that worldatlas commands then maybe that argument will have some validity. Leave it to a German to be so exclusionary.

[jokker]

Rewrote a confusing cell phone dictation. Sorry


I'm late to this discussion. The ring in my nose expression is silly. My direct observation of life in Europe and North America is quite favorable on many levels. I am influenced by the fact we in the west just live a more comfortable life with benefits the majority of the world doesn't enjoy, The possibility of hard work turning into a significant degree of financial independence is pretty uncommon for most of the world population. Europe has a safely net that is second to none. America has a long tradition of independence regarding uncensored speech. Our wealthy came about by building something useful, not being connected to a party. The Russian billionaires just had the connections to gain access to the industries built with public funds. At least our billionaires created something of value for the masses.

If your successful in the west, the system over time will tax it away and distribute of the wealth to its citizens.

Rule of law prevails here. I will conceed that corruption is a universal human trait. As is greed, as are other forms of corruption especially power grabbing. In the west we at least try to rebalance the wrong, (though not being as successful as I'd want).

But we in the west (including the capitalist far east) do live with many benefits that the remainder does not. You being in Germany should know that very well. I don't get your point of view, my travels worldwide have given me a first hand view of just how good I have it.

I too was excited for Russia when Boris stood on the side of radical change. I think when the KGB cronies ended up running the government along with and supported by the robber barons, the die was cast. My belief Russia is going to turn into a oil state with a very few having substantial money and the vast majority scraping by. Massive middle class in Russia, I am doubtful it will happen. I truly hope I'm wrong.

If you're unhappy with your current situation, just move to where you admire the system

bob

[jokker]

You can paint a map of "North America" reaching nearly down to Venezuela. Though culturally my Mexican neighbors are different, they are still Norte Americanos and proud to be so.





Sure, and I can paint a map showing that the United States for example reach down to Venezuela.

The Caucasian region since centuries is seen and described - culturally and geographically - as a region where Europe has faded out and Asia has faded in. Hence the - imo already euphemistical - description of "Eurasia" - with more Asia and less Europe at best.

To claim it is "Europe" makes as much sense like saying that Syria is part of Europe.

Culturally, the region is more Middle East and Asia than anything else. The countries located there and sharing place with the region described as "Caucasian region", are Turkey, Armenia, Aserbajdjan, Russia, Georgia, Iran.

None of those countries are "Europe".

Europe to the East fades out somewhere along the territory of the Ukraine. Geographically. Culturally. Historically. And by mentality of the people in the regions.

[Tribesman]

Sure, and I can paint a map showing that the United States for example reach down to Venezuela.

Only if you are being completely dishonest about facts, again:doh:

The Caucasian region since centuries is seen and described - culturally and geographically - as a region where Europe has faded out and Asia has faded in. Hence the - imo already euphemistical - description of "Eurasia" - with more Asia and less Europe at best.

More complete bollox. Eurasia is the geographical term for the combined land mass of both continents.
"Has that fool never seen a map or a dictionary"?

To claim it is "Europe" makes as much sense like saying that Syria is part of Europe.

When your claim is shown to be complete rubbish you make another completely rubbish claim as a "favourable" comparison:haha:
Look its really simple, if you want to see how your really rubbish claim is proven to be really rubbish then have a gander at the EU. Deal with the case of a country clearly from a different continent applying to join and see what the result was:hmmm:
Deal with facts, or continue looking like a fool who has never seen a map.

Its amazing but not surprising how often your own words bite you in the posterior. Perhaps you should think before you rant.

[Aktungbby]

- he worked so hard to build his image of Roman emperor.

Nothing much has changed , what always glued Russia together was and is the ruthless leadership and Putin delivers the Act.
.... this guy sometimes acts like Mussolini.:haha:

Russia is suffering consequences of trying to be what it could not be.
Another country which builds own image of strength from outside in ... instead from inside out.
Sort of like NK but on grander scale.

INDEED! a veritable 'Genghis' Vladimir the Good...Where's the horde?:Dhttp://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/putin091311/s_p19_RTR26F3Y.jpg
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB20001424052702304547704579564084286696684?mg=ren o64-wsj (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB20001424052702304547704579564084286696684?mg=ren o64-wsj)
Whereas I had dubbed "Vlad the good" with an equestrian theme , Leon Aron, of the Wall Street Journal, has checked in, resoundingly, with "Vladimir The (not so) GOOD" a little historical perspective and an excerpt: " But today's Russia isn't the Russia of old. The period of highly imperfect but real democratization under Gorbachev and Yeltsin, as well as the protest and open discussion of recent years, has made Mr. Putin's assertions of Russian exceptionalism even more transparently self-serving. Leonid Kaganov, one of Russia's most influential bloggers, recently posted what he labeled the "Ten Commandments of the New Russian State." It opens, in pitch-perfect parody of the regime's latest line, with the statement: "Russia is [the country] biggest in size, population, level of development, culture, intelligence, modesty, honesty and justice." It goes on to lament that "We are completely surrounded by Gayropa and its whores on all sides," who "falsely worship a notion of liberty deeply alien to us."
Or maybe not so "alien." A trifle lengthy-but fresh perspective IMHO http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/RV-AN573B_RUSSI_GS_20140530204728.jpgan upgrade in horse and tack! A cloud of dust and a fiery steed? But the masked men are in Ukraine BBY! Somebody up there reads my posts!:rock:

[Oberon]

http://memecrunch.com/image/529a64e71605fb6361000428.jpg

[Skybird]

When when map has even half the respect of the teaching community that worldatlas commands then maybe that argument will have some validity. Leave it to a German to be so exclusionary.

http://www11.pic-upload.de/01.06.14/v8jb4sccf8k2.gif (http://www.pic-upload.de/view-23391188/eunewlnd.gif.html)

Go 300-400 km to the left and to the right of that line, and you have roughly a transition zone where European cultures (plural!) fades out and foreign cultures from beyond fade in.

Then you have a fare ore realistic assessment of the zone that today represents the - highly diverse already! - European sphere.

If you think "Europe" is something that by precise lines and up to the last square inch is to be defined by desktop workers, then you make the same mistakes that earlier have messed up distant world regions so very often already.

And the EU - cannot even come to terms with tiny dwarf regions like Kosovo and corrupted places like Romania and Bulgaria, not to mention the blossoming corruption and growing centralised dicatortship in its governing hierarchy, the paper-Euro's slow motion cataclysm, and the self-dynamic of all Europe turning into a EUSSR. But ewanting to be the holy saint bringing order and light to a criminal hellholoe like the ukreaine where ordinary Mafgiose run the economy and governments, or Georgia.

Oh what a textbook example of illustrating the meaning of the term "megalomania".

Read Herrfried Münkler: "Empires" LINK (http://www.amazon.com/Empires-Domination-Ancient-United-States/dp/0745638724/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1401584252&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=Herrfried+M%C3%BCnkler). Maybe then you get a more competent understanding of the meaning and importance of centers and peripheries of empires, and why your fixed border approach (that ignores cultural realities on the ground completely) does mean nothing. Your nation and Britain and France did like that throughout the Middle East as well - ink lines overruling cultural and ethnic realities, and look how fantastic it has worked: chaos, war and violence resulting from that border-drawing, until today. Great job! :yeah: Millions meanwhile have suffered or died for that abstract map making, making the conflicts of the Islamic civil war even worse by heating up the pressure in the cooker.

[CCIP]

And that is based on what?
I think particularly as far as Georgia, that's kind of ludicrous. Something tells me you don't know a whole lot about Georgian culture or history.

[Oberon]

Looks to be based at the furthest extents of a certain military operations advance... :hmmm: :O:

[CCIP]

Looks to be based at the furthest extents of a certain military operations advance... :hmmm: :O:

ZING :woot:

And in that case, why not exclude the whole of the Balkans region and Greece? They might hate to admit it, but they've been far more significantly influenced by the Ottomans (as culture goes) than Georgia ever was. Why not exclude most of Spain? They were controlled by Muslims for quite a while. Why not exclude Hungarians, Finns, Estonians and the Saami? Historically speaking, they're fairly recent arrivals from the Urals and are totally not European. And their languages are funny. Clearly serves Skybird's concept of the ever-shrinking Europe quite well.

[Oberon]

Truth be told though, nothing is likely to come of this random EU bureaucrats mumblings, I mean let's face it, if every remark a bureaucrat made was true then the EU would be in Tokyo by now, and the US run by Hitler and Stalins love child.

Skybird said it himself, this is just a fart, and if we had an uproar every time someone farted then nothing would get done. :O:

[CCIP]

That reminds me, by the way, of something that I'd come across not too long ago from a Russian study - I can't track it down again, and take it with a grain of salt considering the source, but...

A large-scale DNA analysis study run by a Russian research team (with international collaboration) found a few interesting things about Russians and their genetic relationships to the peoples around them. One of their conclusions was, predictably, that eastern Ukrainians are identical to Russians as far as the gene pool goes. What's more, there was not a distinct Ukrainian type found - rather, there were 3 or 4, and they largely matched their Polish, Lithuanian or Romanian neighbours, depending on where they lived. The more intriguing finding, though, was about the Russian genetic type - they suggested that despite all the pan-Slavism that Russian nationalists are all about, in fact Russians are not a Slavic peoples at all; that is, that they bear very little genetic resemblance to Poles, Czechs, Serbs, etc. and even Ukrainians (besides those in the east). It also found that the influence of Tatars and other Turkic peoples on Russian genetics has been greatly exaggarated. Instead, the finding was that ethnic Russians were, effectively, a Uralic peoples - and their closest genetic relatives were in fact the Finns. Everybody else was a distant relation at best.

So there's that. I'll try again to track down that source but certainly throws more cogs into nationalist politics on all sides here :hmm2:

[Tribesman]

And that is based on what?
.
That is based on the rationale that when your argument has been shown to be totally without merit and you have then resorted to making up "facts" which are easily exposed as false, "logic" suggests that the only course open to a certain mindset is to make up more ludicrous "facts" and padding it out with meaningless waffle instead of going "oops I was wrong":yep:


I think particularly as far as Georgia, that's kind of ludicrous. Something tells me you don't know a whole lot about Georgian culture or history
That deduction isn't exactly rocket science.:03:

[Oberon]

Meanwhile in Germany...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-fxwnzPaUewU/UGB3pK8TyHI/AAAAAAAAAXs/2X4luUPp6Gk/s1600/brazilian-octoberfest.jpg

Oh wait...that's Brazil...

[Catfish]

^ i thought they were british tourists, in Munich :O:

[Oberon]

^ i thought they were british tourists, in Munich :O:

:haha: There is a definite similarity!

[jokker]

This sort of "research" is all too often misdirected and used to justify so many unjust, immoral policies. From the concept of superior "aryan" race to other forms of ethnic cleansing. etc. This dangerous jingoistic methodology is the seed of conflict.

The melting pot of America should have demonstrated any race superiority concept is entirely disproven other than as a rally cry of those who are working to tap into the insecurities of nationalism.

The root of many if not most wars.

B



That reminds me, by the way, of something that I'd come across not too long ago from a Russian study - I can't track it down again, and take it with a grain of salt considering the source, but...

A large-scale DNA analysis study run by a Russian research team (with international collaboration) found a few interesting things about Russians and their genetic relationships to the peoples around them. One of their conclusions was, predictably, that eastern Ukrainians are identical to Russians as far as the gene pool goes. What's more, there was not a distinct Ukrainian type found - rather, there were 3 or 4, and they largely matched their Polish, Lithuanian or Romanian neighbours, depending on where they lived. The more intriguing finding, though, was about the Russian genetic type - they suggested that despite all the pan-Slavism that Russian nationalists are all about, in fact Russians are not a Slavic peoples at all; that is, that they bear very little genetic resemblance to Poles, Czechs, Serbs, etc. and even Ukrainians (besides those in the east). It also found that the influence of Tatars and other Turkic peoples on Russian genetics has been greatly exaggarated. Instead, the finding was that ethnic Russians were, effectively, a Uralic peoples - and their closest genetic relatives were in fact the Finns. Everybody else was a distant relation at best.

So there's that. I'll try again to track down that source but certainly throws more cogs into nationalist politics on all sides here :hmm2:

[Oberon]

DNA is DNA, nationalism or no nationalism... :hmmm:

[CCIP]

Yeah, trust me, I would be about the last person to make nationalist arguments and I agree that nationalism is a terrible plague that's largely to blame for what's going on in the Ukraine right now. That said, I think there's something quite different to be read into those kinds of findings - namely that there's a lot of caveats and ironies in the ethnic and national picture, and a lot of arguments made by nationalists are plain silly because there really isn't much of a basis to go on, culturally or genetically. And as someone of Russian-German-Finnish-Swedish-Ukrainian-Tatar-Gypsy-Jewish-Turkish-Everything-Else background (in that order), I'm pretty sure I know that better than most people, myself :O:

Plus, grains of salt to be taken as required with that one.

[Catfish]

I have always wondered, what makes a nation.

A certain belonging to 'race', or genetics ?
A certain belief, or spirit ?

Or isn't it a mere chance, an accidental 'fortune' that you are born 20 km west or east of a 'line', created by military a$$holes some centuries or decades ago? And you are just thrown in by chance ?



I had high hopes in the late eighties, that "nations" would become a thing of the past, and all would be about science, going to space and let all this bull behind, trying to face other threats.

Unfortunately we had to witness that the glorious western ideas of the pre-1989 times were completely overthrown by its own (former) supporting nations, who carry on like in the best cold war times, acting similar to those nations they had criticised before.

It seems the ideas were only propaganda, instrumentalising certain generations against certain evil other nations.


"I have seen the enemy and he is us."


Thanks and greetings,
Catfish

[Jimbuna]

^ i thought they were british tourists, in Munich :O:

Looking at that guys dress sense and the flowers in his hair, I would say a denite Suffolkite :)

[Oberon]

Looking at that guys dress sense and the flowers in his hair, I would say a denite Suffolkite :)

Well, at least he's vertical and not crawling on all fours, so that rules out someone from Newcastle. :03::O:

[TarJak]

Cucumbers FTW:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7053/8689105690_88dd04a396_b.jpg

Though some prefer oranges:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7047/8687987803_0a9f0e167d_b.jpg

[Jimbuna]

Well, at least he's vertical and not crawling on all fours, so that rules out someone from Newcastle. :03::O:

LOL...only way you can find the taxi fare home at the end of the night :)

[Bilge_Rat]

I have always wondered, what makes a nation.



In the U.N. charter which provides for the right of a people to self-determination, the definition is deliberately vague, most likely because no one can agree on a definition.

I would think that most people would agree that a "nation" is a group of people sharing a common language, common culture, common religion, shared history, defined territory.

The problem is, of course, that basically none of the 190 countries in the world are "pure" nations, all have ethnic, religious, linguistic minorities.

The concept of a "nation" is also a very recent phenomenon. You go back 250 years to the Seven Years War and all European Armies were like professional hockey teams with officers/soldiers from many different countries. Their loyalty was a personal one to the King they were serving, it did not matter where they came from, so one of the top Prussian general, James Keith, was a Scot who had previously served in the Spanish and Russian Army. Laudon, one of the better Austrian general, was born in present-day Latvia (then part of Sweden) and had previously served in the Russian Army.

You could also argue that the concept of a "nation" only came about after the introduction of compulsory education. You go back a few hundred years in France and each region had its own language or "Patois". It is only after a standard french started to be taught all over France that the concept of a French Nation comes to the fore.

In other words, a "Nation" is a purely artificial and recent concept.

[TarJak]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-09/tony-abbott-tells-russia-to-stop-bullying-ukraine/5510280
:har::har::har: Putin must be shaking in his boots! :har::har::har:

[Jimbuna]

Looks like your lot have quite a 'character' for a leader atm :)

[Oberon]

Unconfirmed reports that a small number of Russian tanks crossed into Ukraine last night, and that three Russian tanks have crossed into Ukraine at this moment in time. Also reports of possible use of white phosphorus by the Ukrainian army against rebel positions.

[Bilge_Rat]

its hard to know what is going on,

apparently the Rebels have 3 T64 tanks which they say they captured from the Ukrainian army.

Ukraine is claiming the tanks came over from Russia with crew.

T64s are no longer used by Russia and apparently all scrapped, but they are still in use by the Ukrainian Army.

In other words, its hard to know what is going on...:ping:

unconfirmed video of one of the tanks, it says T72, but is a T64:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaVdQiSvADo

[nikimcbee]

its hard to know what is going on,

apparently the Rebels have 3 T64 tanks which they say they captured from the Ukrainian army.

Ukraine is claiming the tanks came over from Russia with crew.

T64s are no longer used by Russia and apparently all scrapped, but they are still in use by the Ukrainian Army.

In other words, its hard to know what is going on...:ping:

unconfirmed video of one of the tanks, it says T72, but is a T64:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaVdQiSvADo

Video has been whacked.:down:

[Oberon]

It is hard to tell, the one picture I've seen so far is alledgedly one from the Georgian war, so it's highly possible that someone is trying to stir things up, or quite possible that the rebels have gotten ahold of some Ukrainian tanks which the Ukrainians think have been given to them by the Russians, Russia operates the T72 and the Ukraine has some in reserve, so it could be that the rebels have found some reserve stock and brought it up, which is why there's only three or so tanks in action.

Not very likely, IMHO, that it's a Russian incursion, they wouldn't send in something as big as a tank in such small numbers.

[Bilge_Rat]

apparently this was shot in Donetsk today showing the 3 Rebel tanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q977zU2J1ww

one theory is that it may be Ukrainian tanks captured by the Russians in Crimea.

[Jimbuna]

apparently this was shot in Donetsk today showing the 3 Rebel tanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q977zU2J1ww

one theory is that it may be Ukrainian tanks captured by the Russians in Crimea.

Probably the most likely.

[jokker]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/14/world/europe/russia-has-sent-tanks-to-ukraine-rebels-us-says.html?emc=edit_na_20140613&nlid=66351942

[TarJak]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/14/world/europe/russia-has-sent-tanks-to-ukraine-rebels-us-says.html?emc=edit_na_20140613&nlid=66351942

Or not as the case may be...

its hard to know what is going on,

apparently the Rebels have 3 T64 tanks which they say they captured from the Ukrainian army.

Ukraine is claiming the tanks came over from Russia with crew.

T64s are no longer used by Russia and apparently all scrapped, but they are still in use by the Ukrainian Army.

In other words, its hard to know what is going on...:ping:

unconfirmed video of one of the tanks, it says T72, but is a T64:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaVdQiSvADo

[CCIP]

One of the stranger stories coming out of the Ukraine today...

http://i.imgur.com/5AG1toX.jpg

This IS-3 tank stood as a soldiers' monument in the village of Konstantinovka in the Donetsk region since the 1960s. Back at the start of this month, some enterprising separatists managed to get its engine running - video here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GakaJxNxvjU

They couldn't get it moving then because the tracks were corroded, but apparently that wasn't where they were going to leave it. Since then, the tank was repaired and fitted with a pair of machineguns - no word about the main gun. And today there's reports that it was successfully used in an attack on a Ukrainian army checkpoint last night, causing 5 casualties.

That's Soviet engineering for you :huh:

[Oberon]

Good tanks those IS-3s, what with that and the T-34 which was following around a month or two ago there must be a lot of veterans of the Great Patriotic War having a few flashbacks. :doh:

[HunterICX]

^

Imagine what the Ukrainians where thinking when they saw that museum piece rolling at them and firing. :huh:

[Jimbuna]

^

Imagine what the Ukrainians where thinking when they saw that museum piece rolling at them and firing. :huh:

Well looking at the smoke the engine was emitting..."That thing is going to explode any minute now" :)

[BossMark]

BEL vs RUS

But Putin saw it as a hangman game for the next country he should invade: BEL_RUS

[Wolferz]

Brought to you by the letters C, I and A.:shifty:

[HunterICX]

...there must be a lot of veterans of the Great Patriotic War having a few flashbacks. :doh:

And they're in better shape too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe4koMHsJfo

[Oberon]

And they're in better shape too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe4koMHsJfo

Men of greater steel than the 'Man of Steel' who lead them. :yep:

[Jimbuna]

And they're in better shape too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe4koMHsJfo

The Russian Rambo :cool:

[TarJak]

Interesting piece on the current gains by Puerto Ukrainian forces and Germany's relationship with Russia:
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-11/dal-santo-as-ukraine-advances-russias-hopes-slip-away/5589886

[Dread Knot]

It's early on, but apparently an Malaysian Air jet on a flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, has gone down over the eastern Ukraine.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28354856

[Dread Knot]

Now reports are it was shot down.

The fur will fly.

[Oberon]

It's really not been a good year for Malaysian airlines... :nope:

If this has been shot down, and it's not unlikely. I'm willing to bet that the Ukrainian government will blame the seperatists and/or Russia, and the Russians and seperatists will blame the Ukrainian government.

Not going to be a pretty couple of days...

[Dread Knot]

Twitter is saying that all international flights are being diverted the heck away from that airspace immediately. It just my layman's view, but it seems like that should have been the case already. I'm anticipating gallons of hogswallow from both sides in the conflict as to who is to blame.

Yeah. MAL the most luckless airline ever...

[Oberon]

Rumours seem to indicate that it was a Buk SAM system that shot the airliner down. I had no idea that the seperatists (who are currently being blamed, since they claimed that they had shot down an aircraft at around the same time the airliner disappeared) had access to such a system.

http://img.defencetalk.com/pictures/data/5019/medium/Buk-M2_TELAR_297th_SAM_Bde_1.JPG

[Dread Knot]

Is that a system that Ukraine operates as well?

[CCIP]

This is INCREDIBLY concerning and worrying and tragic. Quite possibly the worst thing that could've happened.

[August]

Why would Ukraine shoot at airliners? AFAIK the seperatists don't have an airforce.

[Betonov]

Why would Ukraine shoot at airliners? AFAIK the seperatists don't have an airforce.

They woulndn't. Same for the rebels and Russia.

Someone screwed up horribly or the missile just found the next target after missing the primary

[CCIP]

Why would Ukraine shoot at airliners? AFAIK the seperatists don't have an airforce.

This may well be true, but it's also going to be difficult for them to avoid suspicion because of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

There is, sadly, a precedent for this kind of thing :(

[Admiral Halsey]

Well this is going to make something that's already a cluster%@#^ and even bigger one. I'm placing my money on Ukraine accidentally shooting the thing down.

[August]

This may well be true, but it's also going to be difficult for them to avoid suspicion because of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

There is, sadly, a precedent for this kind of thing :(

Maybe but it's kind of difficult to shoot down a plane with a missle that doesn't have the range to reach it. Seems to me that Russia has a lot more history for shooting down airliners than Ukraine does.

[kranz]

Well this is going to make something that's already a cluster%@#^ and even bigger one. I'm placing my money on Ukraine accidentally shooting the thing down.
I'm placing my money on MH370 falling into a blackhole and ending up on Ukraine as MH17.

[Schroeder]

Why on earth are civilian aircraft even still flying over that area? The rebels have downed a few aircraft already. Yes, with short range missiles that couldn't intercept an airliner but if they got those it wouldn't be that surprising if the got something bigger by now. So what the hell were the airlines thinking to send them that way???
(yes, I know the answer: "$" but still...):/\\!!:/\\!!:/\\!!

[Betonov]

I doubt it's the Russians.
They wouldn't help the rebels by shooting down planes for them. Too direct.

I also doubt it were the Ukranians.
Like August said, there's nothing the rebels have that would need really expensive long range missiles.

[Jimbuna]

Started a thread here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=214617