Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine

[Jimbuna]

P.s. There is an "ignore" button? Never saw it.

You can add someone to 'ignore' by clicking on their name and selecting View Public Profile then selecting User Lists then selecting Add to Ignore List.

[kranz]

You can add someone to 'ignore' by clicking on their name and selecting View Public Profile then selecting User Lists then selecting Add to Ignore List.

Jim, he does that even without putting anyone to the list. Just skim through his previous posts in this thread.

[ikalugin]

I suggest you watch the recent Valdai speach by Putin.

On the Ukranian matters, it appears that the build up of loyalist forces continues, as do the artillery strikes against separatists positions (recent attacks on the Donetsk were particularly well documented). Hence separatists have declared that they would no longer abide by the ceasefire, as loyalists clearly don't.

At the same time it is reported that Russian military aid (atleast in the form of supplies) has been resumed.

Last but not least:
http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20141024/1029903925.html
Increase in the military budget of 2015 by a third was reported.

[ikalugin]

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4510/94845085.f3/0_b8ce3_c3ec521d_-1-orig.jpg (http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/elberet545/view/756963)
Приглашение.jpg
And so the cookie crumbles.

[Oberon]

Was only a matter of time, lots of Euros in that deal, and money is in demand in Europe at the moment. :03:

[Jimbuna]

Was only a matter of time, lots of Euros in that deal, and money is in demand in Europe at the moment. :03:

Aye....money being the current root of all evil :know:

[ikalugin]

http://zakon3.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/743-18
An interesting law in the workings.

Look at the crimes it provides and amnesty against for the Maidan activists.

[Jimbuna]

Can't read the language.

[kranz]

Can't read the language.
Well, today is a good day to start learning it.
Putin might visit you in Newcastle one day. :)

[Skybird]

Is there any substantial, confirmed numerical basis regarding how many people of the population in Donezk and Luhansk actually went to the voting? Because that is what decides on how much the claimed 70% victory of the separatists actually is worth. In Abchasia and Ossetia with their pro-Russia referendums, the situation was much clearer, a substantial majority of the general population wanted to stay away from the Georgians at all costs (and for good historical reasons), and that is why Geogia has no claim there. In case of Luhansk and Donezk, the situation seems to be much more shady. Many people seems to have not dared going to vote, being intimidated or having resigned.

[August]

Well, today is a good day to start learning it.
Putin might visit you in Newcastle one day. :)


Nah, he'll be stopped cold at the Fulda Gap. :yep:

[Oberon]

Black Horses!! :rock:

[ikalugin]

Well, today is a good day to start learning it.
Putin might visit you in Newcastle one day. :)
The language in that document is Ukranian.

[Betonov]

Nah, he'll be stopped cold at the Fulda Gap. :yep:

NATO will pour resources into Poland if an invasion happends, plus the Poles are going to stur up one hell of a resistance. The Russians should be stopped before the German border.

Should the opposite happen NATO would be quagmired long before Moscow. The two sides are to evenly matched.

[kranz]

NATO will pour resources into Poland if an invasion happends, plus the Poles are going to stur up one hell of a resistance. The Russians should be stopped before the German border.

Should the opposite happen NATO would be quagmired long before Moscow. The two sides are to evenly matched.
dunno if it's possible to withstand a nuclear strike, but I can promise I'll do my best.

[Betonov]

dunno if it's possible to withstand a nuclear strike, but I can promise I'll do my best.

Nuclear blast ??
A mere warm summer breeze for the Polish Hussar

[ikalugin]

Hehe. Meanwhile separatists receive surplus old patern winter uniforms

And organise repairs for their armor:
Hehe. Meanwhile separatists receive surplus old patern winter uniforms

And organise repairs for their armor:
https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6813/13354011.13be/0_f736f_ed17e2fc_orig.jpg

[Jimbuna]

Well, today is a good day to start learning it.
Putin might visit you in Newcastle one day. :)

Far too cold for him :03:

[Catfish]

...NATO will pour resources into Poland if an invasion happends, ....

:hmmm:
Last time, England only supported Poland, in case Germany attacked it. Had Stalin alone attacked, it would have all been perfectly ok.
But we have new treaties, of course.. :yep:

[mapuc]

(Just a guess)

I don't think Putin's next target is some of the countries in Europe who's not a member of NATO

I think he has his eyes on Gotland, and part of skania thereby controlling a big part of the baltic sea.

Markus

[Catfish]

I do not really think he is in for an expansion of the rodinya.
He sure has his eyes close to what the NATO does.

Elections are over in the US, we can for now get back to common sense.

[Sbygneus]

The shell landed at school playground in Ukraine killing 2 children. And I am 100% sure who did it. It was done by adults who shell and kill kids by
"mistake" while fighting for "some important reasons".
Let me tell this flat and plain. Both sides's fighters are just bloody MORONS!
God damn them.

[kranz]

the shell wouldn't have killed them if Russia didn't support the separatists. They would have been crushed by now.

And the rest of your post is pretty lolish taking into consideration you're a Pole.

[ikalugin]

the shell wouldn't have killed them if Russia didn't support the separatists. They would have been crushed by now.

And the rest of your post is pretty lolish taking into consideration you're a Pole.
Or if the West didn't support the armed take over of power in the Kiev.

Interesting fact - 2 out of 3 largest parties in the (new) Ukranian parliament are nationalists. I wonder what they have to say about the Poles, if they support the UPA (and thus the crimes UPA commited).

[Sbygneus]

the shell wouldn't have killed them if Russia didn't support the separatists. They would have been crushed by now.

And the rest of your post is pretty lolish taking into consideration you're a Pole.

I dont understand you ziomek :) I just try to be Christian before I am a Pole

[Catfish]

Or if the West didn't support the armed take over of power in the Kiev.

Interesting fact - 2 out of 3 largest parties in the (new) Ukranian parliament are nationalists. I wonder what they have to say about the Poles, if they support the UPA (and thus the crimes UPA commited).


Had some exchange with friends in Ukraine, Kiev government is far right, national or better 'fascist'. The US sent the head of the CIA to support just of all them(?).
– this is what some ordinary people living in Kiev say :hmmm:

[Betonov]

Had some exchange with friends in Ukraine, Kiev government is far right, national or better 'fascist'. The US sent the head of the CIA to support just of all them(?).
– this is what some ordinary people living in Kiev say :hmmm:

That can't be right. It goes against everything the media tells us.

[ikalugin]

Had some exchange with friends in Ukraine, Kiev government is far right, national or better 'fascist'. The US sent the head of the CIA to support just of all them(?).
– this is what some ordinary people living in Kiev say :hmmm:
Well there was that leaked phone call.....

[Oberon]

The shell landed at school playground in Ukraine killing 2 children. And I am 100% sure who did it. It was done by adults who shell and kill kids by
"mistake" while fighting for "some important reasons".
Let me tell this flat and plain. Both sides's fighters are just bloody MORONS!
God damn them.

Well said.

Nothing more can come from this conflict but misery and death.
Both sides need to just stop now and work with what they have been dealt.

[Catfish]

That can't be right. It goes against everything our media tell us.

Fixed :03:


@Sbygneus – good post.


@Ikalugin: Which telephone call ?

[Alex]

That can't be right. It goes against everything our media tells us.

Fixed :03:
:know:


And here (http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/10/25/vladimir-putin-leader-moral-world-paul-craig-roberts/)'s an interesting article. :hmm2:

[MH]

http://greshams-law.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/3488070937_9784deaba0_z.jpg

[MH]

Or if the West didn't support the armed take over of power in the Kiev.

Interesting fact - 2 out of 3 largest parties in the (new) Ukranian parliament are nationalists. I wonder what they have to say about the Poles, if they support the UPA (and thus the crimes UPA commited).

Are you sure about it?
From what I hears all kind of nutcase parties did not win enough votes to enter the parliament.
The leading coalition is more or less as nationalist as Russia's current government , it seems natural in given circumstances.

[ikalugin]

Are you sure about it?
From what I hears all kind of nutcase parties did not win enough votes to enter the parliament.
The leading coalition is more or less as nationalist as Russia's current government , it seems natural in given circumstances.
Yes. Out of 6 parties you have:
People's Front (nationalists, 64 seats).
Petr Poroshenko Party (liberal conservatives 63 seats).
Self Help Party (Christian democrats 32 seats).
Opposition Block (centrists, 27 seats).
Radical Party (nationalists, 22 seats).
Batkovshina (conservatives, 17 seats).

Ie atleast 40 percent of all seats allocated to party lists are straight nationalists or 33 percent if we account for single mandate seats (but then there are uncounted seats held by the parties that did not get into the parliament by the party lists).

Russian involvement is but one of the reasons why such a parliament was elected - the others are the lack of Crimean voters (who would vote for the left wing or centrists parties), lack of some Eastern Ukraine voters (who would again vote similar to the Crimean voters), lack of participation in the eastern parts of the Ukraine (people are dissatisfied with the current government and parliament, as well as the Maidan due to the war).

You could see the voting paterns here:
http://www.richardcyoung.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/ukraine-election-map.png

[kranz]

Or if the West didn't support the armed take over of power in the Kiev.


proofs or didn't happen.
Somehow I haven't seen any NATO soldiers captured by either the separatists or russians. But I've seen Russian soldiers captured by the Ukrainian army.

I dont understand you ziomek :) I just try to be Christian before I am a Pole
Kappa.
Well said.

Nothing more can come from this conflict but misery and death.
Both sides need to just stop now and work with what they have been dealt.
yup, Ukrainians should disarm themselves and give in to Russians.
Selling countries down the river (since 1938) must be in your British blood.

[Oberon]

yup, Ukrainians should disarm themselves and give in to Russians.
Selling countries down the river (since 1936) must be in your British blood.

I wrote both sides.

Now do please stop trolling me. :yep:

[Skybird]

proofs or didn't happen.
Already has been discussed, and yes, it seemed to be true indeed. The West was heavily involved in triggering the crisis by pushing Kiew once again to finally join EU and NATO, both politically and by secret intel operations. The sniper shootout on the Majdan a year ago also sees provocations by the rebels (the pro-Wetsern rebels of that time) as the most likely explanation, intercepted radio communications also indicate that the security forces of the old regime ha dno clue on what was going on. The buildings from which fire was started also spoke for that.

It has been discussed. Don't act as if it all is new. It is not.

I also remind of the heavy activity the CIA unfolded in Kiew, most obviously illustrated by the visit of the CIA chief in Kiev.

Don'T step into the same trap like people did when seeing Georgia as the innocent victim back then - when indeed it was the provocateur and notorious liar. Saakashvili is persona non grata in the EU until today (although Washington and London want to bring this fraudster back into the saloon in their bid for pushing NATO into Georgia, like the Americans always wanted), because of that. Nothing to be learned from that? Really nothing?

[kranz]

I'd like to remind you that you said that I was on your 'Ignore list' and I would never leave it...so I'm respectfully asking you to stick to your promise.

[Catfish]

Whenever i talk to people with a bit of knowledge here, the usual question is what should Russia do ? Wait until the Nato knocks at Moscow's door ?

Look at what happened, after 1989. The EU has broken almost all treaties that had been initiated, since then. And lets not speak about the rest of "the west".

Russia is sure more nationalist than Germany, as well as the US, but is it so strange to have the benefit of the own nation, in focus ?
Whether yes or no, as long as there are nations (and i hope this concept will die out like the dinos), there will be conflicting interests.
And nations have interests, not friendship. People have.

[Skybird]

I'd like to remind you that you said that I was on your 'Ignore list' and I would never leave it...so I'm respectfully asking you to stick to your promise.
With snobby comments like that you certainly will see that getting arranged fast.

[Jimbuna]

http://s8.postimg.org/54yp7aeg1/adminwatch_2.gif (http://postimage.org/)

[MH]

Already has been discussed, and yes, it seemed to be true indeed......

Personally not convicted yet.
Actually it looks better than expected.

The West was heavily involved in triggering the crisis by pushing Kiew once again to finally join EU and NATO, both politically and by secret intel operations. The sniper shootout on the Majdan a year ago also sees provocations by the rebels (the pro-Wetsern rebels of that time) as the most likely explanation, intercepted radio communications also indicate that the security forces of the old regime ha dno clue on what was going on. The buildings from which fire was started also spoke for that.

West was involved in triggering the crisis by backing the pro EU fractions...so what , the seeds had been there already.
If west did nothing there would be no crisis of course...with the west...
Had west the right to take this stance?
Judging by the election results it seems yes.
It doesn't seem that NATO is pushing its brothers into Russia against the peoples will even if Russia doesn't like it while losing its assets and prestige.

As for the sniper shooting if we are into conspiracies...maybe it was the Russian intelligence.
If this conflict did not escalate into more violent state the swing would happen in more peaceful way and Russians would have no reason for peace keeping in Crimea and other regions.
It seems Russians had achieved they objectives , looks that Crimea will be Russians control.
Maybe Putin did not expect the situation to become so messy yet it seems he has won on this one in long run.

[Catfish]

[...] Maybe Putin did not expect the situation to become so messy yet it seems he has won on this one in long run.

Seems so, the stance that the west has won with its sanctions has backfired. The loser is the EU, and economically especially Germany. Why do we always have to present our backside, as an invitation to US and NATO politics.
Merkel is more interested in obedience, than in its own people.

[Sbygneus]

Kappa.

yup, Ukrainians should disarm themselves and give in to Russians.
Selling countries down the river (since 1938) must be in your British blood.

Now I seriously dot understand you. I was talking about people's suffering without irony.
Situation in Ukraine is serious and is an effect of human ignorance on both sides. I dont know what Ukrainians should do now. I wont even try to advise them.
And please stop insult the British. They and the French suffered in the Great War very much. I can understand why they didnt rush to another war in 1938. Its always easy to judge nowadays, armchair sitting.

Lets stay cool and develope our own country.

[sailor_X]

Let's remember who is to blame that Putin thinks that western countries can bark out loud about how Russia is bad without being capable to bite her ass so painfully, that Russia would think over her aggressive plan of actions towards Ukraine following the rest of the Europe ?

in my POW there was decades waisted in hope to see Russia as capable of being true democratic partner for the western countries.. For some time Russia let western countries to think so, but sooner or later doublefaced policy is doomed to show off the real face and intentions. In short petting a lion would not make him to become a pussy cat. The Russian-Georgia war was a serious sign to the west back at the time, but the west reaction to what was happenening was way too cold and indifferent. As if, what a hell we don't want another war for GEORGIA, western governments thought oh let's just close our eyes and pretend nothing has happened in the name of PEACE no big deal. That's what you get when you not paying attention to the signs in time, a bigger mess to deal with later.

I hope most of you have seen the movie Hitler: Rise of Evil, right ? What was the opening phrase there ? AFAIR it was: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" by Edmund Burke.

So now everyone can raise yourself a questions to why woun't we learn from our history ? Are there no good men left to withstand the wrong (I would like to think that majority are still capable to separate the good and bad) one, or shall we let the anarchy go wild in the world order ? I would like to think that I'm wrong..

[Schroeder]

@Sailor X

How exactly would you have liked NATO to respond in Georgia?

[Sbygneus]

@Sailor X

How exactly would you have liked NATO to respond in Georgia?

good point, I would also want to know this.
Maybe we should scream president Putin to death in media?
This is a problem. How to deal with Russian government?
This is all resolved by superpowers above our heads.
I just wish for a right man rulling US. Like... Ronald Regan?
:06:

[sailor_X]

@Sailor X

How exactly would you have liked NATO to respond in Georgia?

Strictly and fast. But this way of operation was not possible at that time for NATO. There has to take place long meetings and conferences to adjust actions to make a move at least, meanwhile Russia can act and did so a lot faster. I'm not just talking about NATO when Georgia was invaded. EU and US sanctions could be started back then as well. NOTHING was made, entire world was just monitoring the events. The move was lost. Russia wanted to check out the reaction of the west. The reaction was zero worth and this was it that lit the green light for Russia to seek new and bigger ambitions.

[Skybird]

Let's remember who is to blame that Putin thinks that western countries can bark out loud about how Russia is bad without being capable to bite her ass so painfully, that Russia would think over her aggressive plan of actions towards Ukraine following the rest of the Europe ?

in my POW there was decades waisted in hope to see Russia as capable of being true democratic partner for the western countries.. For some time Russia let western countries to think so, but sooner or later doublefaced policy is doomed to show off the real face and intentions. In short petting a lion would not make him to become a pussy cat. The Russian-Georgia war was a serious sign to the west back at the time, but the west reaction to what was happenening was way too cold and indifferent. As if, what a hell we don't want another war for GEORGIA, western governments thought oh let's just close our eyes and pretend nothing has happened in the name of PEACE no big deal. That's what you get when you not paying attention to the signs in time, a bigger mess to deal with later.

I hope most of you have seen the movie Hitler: Rise of Evil, right ? What was the opening phrase there ? AFAIR it was: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" by Edmund Burke.

So now everyone can raise yourself a questions to why woun't we learn from our history ? Are there no good men left to withstand the wrong (I would like to think that majority are still capable to separate the good and bad) one, or shall we let the anarchy go wild in the world order ? I would like to think that I'm wrong..

---> http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2254821&postcount=1754

When you are so easy in subjugating the Ossetians and Abchasians against their will to your will - what then makes you any different to those factions of evil that you criticise? You act not better than them.

[Schroeder]

Strictly and fast. But this way of operation was not possible at that time for NATO. There has to take place long meetings and conferences to adjust actions to make a move at least, meanwhile Russia can act and did so a lot faster. I'm not just talking about NATO when Georgia was invaded. EU and US sanctions could be started back then as well. NOTHING was made, entire world was just monitoring the events. The move was lost. Russia wanted to check out the reaction of the west. The reaction was zero worth and this was it that lit the green light for Russia to seek new and bigger ambitions.
You are aware that not everybody was seeing the Russians as the aggressors there, right? It wasn't a clear case of good versus evil, right versus wrong. I think it was good to stay out of it.

[Oberon]

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2299/2125424790_8a8e83bbb4.jpg

[sailor_X]

---> http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2254821&postcount=1754

When you are so easy in subjugating the Ossetians and Abchasians against their will to your will - what then makes you any different to those factions of evil that you criticise? You act not better than them.

Would you let your country to be divided in peaces again so easily ? I believe in will to stay in one peace. I'm not supporting scotland to become independant from England, I'm not supporting Catalonia to become seperate country from Spain. Seperation of regions is a no way out in the middle of any country. What it brings is more chaos and disorder. I consider myself a citizen of my government as friendly. It's very common these days to be hostile against governments. I'm just not that type of person. If I was Ukrainian I would go to war and kill those ppl who want to brake my country in peaces. I would never let that happen as far as I'm alive. You can think as far as your philosophical knowledge lets you do this. But this will not change the mind of those who are still in their common sense. You can play with those minds that are sick, telling that separation in any countrty of any region is good to go. Not in my yard pal.

[sailor_X]

You are aware that not everybody was seeing the Russians as the aggressors there, right? It wasn't a clear case of good versus evil, right versus wrong. I think it was good to stay out of it.

It was a big mistake to stay out of it in Georgia, as it is a big mistake to stay out of this nowadays in the Ukraine war. With every steps asides you take, you're inviting the russian beast closer to your home door. It's a high time for thinkers as you to drop the illussion that Russia is a friendly nation. I can asure you it is NOT.

[ikalugin]

De Jure Georgia has committed an act of aggression against Russia (a very, very stupid thing to do) by attacking the peace keepers who were legally stationed there.

While the Russian response, ie destruction of the bases that were used to support the attack on the Russian peace keepers and South Osetia in general, was judged as excessive by a number of Western parties the cause for Russian entry is still clearly legitimate.

[ikalugin]

Would you let your country to be divided in peaces again so easily ? I believe in will to stay in one peace. I'm not supporting scotland to become independant from England, I'm not supporting Catalonia to become seperate country from Spain. Seperation of regions is a no way out in the middle of any country. What it brings is more chaos and disorder. I consider myself a citizen of my government as friendly. It's very common these days to be hostile against governments. I'm just not that type of person. If I was Ukrainian I would go to war and kill those ppl who want to brake my country in peaces. I would never let that happen as far as I'm alive. You can think as far as your philosophical knowledge lets you do this. But this will not change the mind of those who are still in their common sense. You can play with those minds that are sick, telling that separation in any countrty of any region is good to go. Not in my yard pal.
Kosovo?

[ikalugin]

It was a big mistake to stay out of it in Georgia, as it is a big mistake to stay out of this nowadays in the Ukraine war. With every steps asides you take, you're inviting the russian beast closer to your home door. It's a high time for thinkers as you to drop the illussion that Russia is a friendly nation. I can asure you it is NOT.
What kind of armed involvement would you suggest in Ukraine?

For the reference Russian political leadership appears to view Ukrainian business as essentially the internal affairs of Russia. Thus any armed foreign intervention into the war would lead to an open, all out conflicts. Considering the text of Russian military doctrine this conflict would be nuclear from the onset.

[sailor_X]

De Jure Georgia has committed an act of aggression against Russia (a very, very stupid thing to do) by attacking the peace keepers who were legally stationed there.

While the Russian response, ie destruction of the bases that were used to support the attack on the Russian peace keepers and South Osetia in general, was judged as excessive by a number of Western parties the cause for Russian entry is still clearly legitimate.

I'm not suprised you take credits for Russia as to be an inocent peace keeping white pigeon, as you are russian as I see. What is the most important that South Osetia and Abchazia were the regions of Georgia. But because of influence of Russia, there had began a destabilization process, that then let the loud mouths of pro-russian leaders of those regions to start fragmentation process in Georgia with the help of Putin. Georgia had to act to stop it and did it. However tiny Georgia could not compare with Russia and the outcome is obvious. Russia provoked this war in Georgia. As it is provoking war in Ukraine. Absolutely the same scenario, only the mast is more bigger.

[ikalugin]

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/12/world/europe/ukraine-russia-unrest/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

Hehe, CNN using footage from the Separatists (being engaged by the Loyalists' armour) as the evidence that..... Loyalists were engaged by Separatist's armour. (the bit on the roof top).

Or just showing trucks (where? when? loaded with what? who they belong to?).

Showing the T64BVs (and 2S3s) being transported (again where, when?) as "Russian tanks".

Random map (probably from summer, as the southern cauldron is still not reduced) with randomly drawn troop divisions. The map itself is poor, this map here:
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/dragon_first_1/72271520/47685/47685_original.jpg
Reflects the situation in far better detail.

[ikalugin]

I'm not suprised you take credits for Russia as to be an inocent peace keeping white pigeon, as you are russian as I see. What is the most important that South Osetia and Abchazia were the regions of Georgia. But because of influence of Russia, there had began a destabilization process, that then let the loud mouths of pro-russian leaders of those regions to start fragmentation process in Georgia with the help of Putin. Georgia had to act to stop it and did it. However tiny Georgia could not compare with Russia and the outcome is obvious. Russia provoked this war in Georgia. As it is provoking war in Ukraine. Absolutely the same scenario, only the mast is more bigger.
What you call the destabilisation process did not start with Russia, in fact if anything Russia managed to contain and freeze this conflict back in the early 90s (hence Russian peace keeping presence there). What happened there was the eager Tbilissi regime, with Western backing trying to change the status quo and doing it in the wrong way (attacking Russian peacekeepers and not blocking the Roki tonnel).

Or are you not aware of how the dissolution of the USSR (which was a sort of illegal separatistic process hehe) went?

[sailor_X]

What kind of armed involvement would you suggest in Ukraine?

For the reference Russian political leadership appears to view Ukrainian business as essentially the internal affairs of Russia. Thus any armed foreign intervention into the war would lead to an open, all out conflicts. Considering the text of Russian military doctrine this conflict would be nuclear from the onset.

Let it be a nuke war then. But no steps back for western countries should be taken to avoid it. It will happen sooner or later anyway if Russia won't step back. Russia can not dictate to any country what path of future should one choose. If Russia wants to start a new global war it will get it.

[sailor_X]

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/12/world/europe/ukraine-russia-unrest/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

Hehe, CNN using footage from the Separatists (being engaged by the Loyalists' armour) as the evidence that..... Loyalists were engaged by Separatist's armour. (the bit on the roof top).

Or just showing trucks (where? when? loaded with what? who they belong to?).

Showing the T64BVs (and 2S3s) being transported (again where, when?) as "Russian tanks".

Random map (probably from summer, as the southern cauldron is still not reduced) with randomly drawn troop divisions. The map itself is poor, this map here:
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/dragon_first_1/72271520/47685/47685_original.jpg
Reflects the situation in far better detail.

I'm sick and tired of Russian propaganda and lies over the media. I believe in one thing, an eye for an eye. Let Putin keep it that way and your people will suffer in the nuclear winter storm.

[ikalugin]

Let it be a nuke war then. But no steps back for western countries should be taken to avoid it. It will happen sooner or later anyway if Russia won't step back. Russia can not dictate to any country what path of future should one choose. If Russia wants to start a new global war it will get it.
So be it.

That said, provoking Russia by meddling in the Ukrainian affairs (and Georgia before that) sounds like a bad idea, unless you want to provoke it.

[ikalugin]

I'm sick and tired of Russian propaganda and lies over the media. I believe in one thing, an eye for an eye. Let Putin keep it that way and your people will suffer in the nuclear winter storm.
Invincible ignorance defense? How refreshing.

[sailor_X]

So be it.

That said, provoking Russia by meddling in the Ukrainian affairs (and Georgia before that) sounds like a bad idea, unless you want to provoke it.

You don't scare a ****. It is common for Russia to drop its fault to others, but this is no longer working. If you support Putins regime, you will die. The world will never let your present government to act like a gangsta in Europe for long.

[Oberon]

https://s3.amazonaws.com/files.digication.com/Md3e0e645beff7e7baa18983573243b42.jpg

[ikalugin]

You don't scare a ****. It is common for Russia to drop its fault to others, but this is no longer working. If you support Putins regime, you will die. The world will never let your present government to act like a gangsta in Europe for long.
Ok, anything else that you have to say?

I wonder as to when you would invoke the Goodwin's law.

[sailor_X]

Ok, anything else that you have to say?

I wonder as to when you would invoke the Goodwin's law.

You do understand that negotiations with terrorists or aggressors has limited time before they are put to perish ?

Get yourself ready, the judgment day is near.

[ikalugin]

You do understand that negotiations with terrorists or aggressors has limited time before they are put to perish ?

Get yourself ready, the judgment day is near.
You have got nothing to say then. Have a pleasant time of the day.

[mapuc]

I have one wish

That people respect each others standpoint and not calling each other by names

Markus

[Sailor Steve]

I have one wish

That people respect each others standpoint and not calling each other by names

Markus
Always a good thing when debating. :yep:

[sailor_X]

I have one wish

That people respect each others standpoint and not calling each other by names

Markus

Good wish,

Just imagine how strong the will should be to standback from it for those ppl who lost their close ones on MH17.

[ikalugin]

Good wish,

Just imagine how strong the will should be to standback from it for those ppl who lost their close ones on MH17.
By the way, were there any results from the international investigation concerning the MH17 incident?

[ikalugin]

More on that CNN story:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nUJvNkX5LAY
You could see here the original video, filmed by the separatists (of them fighting over the Donetsk airfield).

The CNN story could be found here:
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/12/world/europe/ukraine-russia-unrest/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

[sailor_X]

By the way, were there any results from the international investigation concerning the MH17 incident?

Don't be such naive, there were plenty of clues that it was a job of separatists. Everyone that had monitored the aftermath of the crash, surely knows what separatists and Russia has to hide.

[sailor_X]

More on that CNN story:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nUJvNkX5LAY
You could see here the original video, filmed by the separatists (of them fighting over the Donetsk airfield).

The CNN story could be found here:
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/12/world/europe/ukraine-russia-unrest/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

So ? Uninvited guests from east In Ukraine should be greeted with shells and mourned back by their mothers.

[Oberon]

I think we've reached the point where this thread should be closed...continued existence is only going to continue to inspire conflict which was best left in 1991.

[ikalugin]

So ? Uninvited guests from east In Ukraine should be greeted with shells and mourned back by their mothers.
I see, so false reporting is ok now?
Don't be such naive, there were plenty of clues that it was a job of separatists. Everyone that had monitored the aftermath of the crash, surely knows what separatists and Russia has to hide.
So when we would see the results of that investigation?

[ikalugin]

I think we've reached the point where this thread should be closed...continued existence is only going to continue to inspire conflict which was best left in 1991.
Ok, though there are no hard feelings from my side if that helps at all.

[sailor_X]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sXIJ7bp8F8

Ukraine War - Regular Russian Paratroopers Captured • Ukraine News

Cheap Russian pigs, fighting even not for glory, but for money. I have no respect for these scumbags..

[sailor_X]

I see, so false reporting is ok now?

So when we would see the results of that investigation?

Russian media says it's false reporting when it is not suitable for Russian people =]

Results of the investigation will never be clear 100% because majority of those clues were destroyed by russian spcial forces and separatists.

[ikalugin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sXIJ7bp8F8

Ukraine War - Regular Russian Paratroopers Captured • Ukraine News

Cheap Russian pigs, fighting even not for glory, but for money. I have no respect for these scumbags..
Interestingly:
- as far as I could hear it does not say at any point in the video that those are Russian troops.
- you can't quite hear what those people (those on the ground) are saying (I wonder why, especially why the man -resays what they were meant to say-).
- those men (the ones on the ground) have no markings relating them to the Russian VDV troops in any way (no markings, uniforms or uniform elements, no tatoos and so on), only the separatist's markings (Novorosya emblem and the st.George's ribbon).

[ikalugin]

Russian media says it's false reporting when it is not suitable for Russian people =]

Results of the investigation will never be clear 100% because majority of those clues were destroyed by russian spcial forces and separatists.
So you would prefer to use media (including dubious sources as Youtube and social media) picture as basis for the decision-making rather than the official investigation?

When an aircraft was shot down by the Ukrainian S200 system those clues were found, even though the remains of the aircraft sunk. You could find some basic information here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

[sailor_X]

Interestingly:
- as far as I could say it does not say at any point in the video that those are Russian troops.
- you can't quite hear what those people (those on the ground) are saying (I wonder why, especially why the man -resays what they were meant to say-).
- those men (the ones on the ground) have no markings relating them to the Russian VDV troops in any way (no markings, uniforms or uniform elements, no tatoos and so on), only the separatist's markings.

Yeah right, we all aware of how assuredly Russia can lie, as if green men ic Crimea also were just separatists. Your nation wears no markings in war. That is pathetic, I suppose even russian prison rules could not tolerate such cowardship =]

[ikalugin]

Yeah right, we all aware of how assuredly Russia can lie, as if green men ic Crimea also were just separatists. Your nation wears no markings in war. That is pathetic, I suppose even russian prison rules could not tolerate such cowardship =]
So if there are no markings (uniforms, uniform elements, tatoos, VDV specific equipment ect), nor does anyone within the video say that the people on the ground are Russian paratroopers (ie there is no evidence within the video itself to even suggest that), how do you make the conclusion that they are Russian paratroopers?

[sailor_X]

So you would prefer to use media (including dubious sources as Youtube and social media) picture as basis for the decision-making rather than the official investigation?

When an aircraft was shot down by the Ukrainian S200 system those clues were found, even though the remains of the aircraft sunk. You could find some basic information here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

You're good in hanging noodles over other ppl ears of those who has little knowledge about it. Surely Russias media is working hard to show it in different colours. Keep trying.

[Mr Quatro]

I think we've reached the point where this thread should be closed...continued existence is only going to continue to inspire conflict which was best left in 1991.

of course we should ... this conflict has gone way beyond the initial pro-EU rally the thread is based on.

name the new thread World War III if America gets involved in it :yep:

[ikalugin]

You're good in hanging noodles over other ppl ears of those who has little knowledge about it. Surely Russias media is working hard to show it in different colours. Keep trying.
So do you or do you not think that using media picture (especially from dubious sources) better than the report of the international investigation team?

Should it (hypo-theoretically) find that the MH17 incident was caused not by the Separatists but by the Ukrainian troops (for example an accident similar to the one from the 2001), what would your reaction be then?

[sailor_X]

So if there are no markings (uniforms, uniform elements, tatoos, VDV specific equipment ect), nor does anyone within the video say that the people on the ground are Russian paratroopers (ie there is no evidence within the video itself to even suggest that), how do you make the conclusion that they are Russian paratroopers?

Because I was fighting in the Ukraine for one month in Lughansk region, covering the Azov unit from flank positions. I know more than you can imagine. I was lithuanian volunteer there. So save your fairy tales to somebody else =]

[CCIP]

Oh, so that clearly gives you a very unbiased critical position!

[ikalugin]

Because I was fighting in the Ukraine for one month in Lughansk region, covering the Azov unit from flank positions. I know more than you can imagine. I was lithuanian volunteer there. So save your fairy tales to somebody else =]
So you must have objective proofs then. Would you be so kind as to present them? I would suggest sending it to the International Criminal Court, basic information about it could be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court

Both of Russian VDV troops in the area and your participation ofcourse, though sending in the later to the ICC may be unwise.

p.s. as Lithuanian I would assume that it is quite possible that you understand Russian. Why would you post the video, in which there is no evidence that the men on the ground are Russian paratroopers then (that is not even mentioned within the video, where the speaker speaks in Russian)?

[sailor_X]

So you must have objective proofs then. Would you be so kind as to present them?

Both of Russian VDV troops in the area and your participation ofcourse.

p.s. as Lithuanian I would assume that it is quite possible that you understand Russian. Why would you post the video, in which there is no evidence that the men on the ground are Russian paratroopers then (that is not even mentioned within the video, where the speaker speaks in Russian)?


... are you dumb or what ? There wount be any proofs for you kid. There are only video footages, about which you think is fake or false, think whatever u want, but I'm telling thinks that I know of. Most of our captured pro-russian fighters in August were ordinary speraratists, but some of them had documents that belonged to russian ordinary army men.

[Skybird]

Would you let your country to be divided in peaces again so easily ? I believe in will to stay in one peace. I'm not supporting scotland to become independant from England, I'm not supporting Catalonia to become seperate country from Spain. Seperation of regions is a no way out in the middle of any country. What it brings is more chaos and disorder. I consider myself a citizen of my government as friendly. It's very common these days to be hostile against governments. I'm just not that type of person. If I was Ukrainian I would go to war and kill those ppl who want to brake my country in peaces. I would never let that happen as far as I'm alive. You can think as far as your philosophical knowledge lets you do this. But this will not change the mind of those who are still in their common sense. You can play with those minds that are sick, telling that separation in any countrty of any region is good to go. Not in my yard pal.
No human is born as a slave, or as a property to somebody else. nobody has to make c,laims for owning somebody else. If the group you live in claims the right to govern another group that does not want to be governed by you and want to stay away form you, it is you being the evil int he world trying to force the to obey your claim for commanding them.

That is becasue I beleive that liberty is the highest good there is. Without freedom, everything else is nothing.

I must not understand why some other people on the Crimean or in Ossetia and Abchasia may want to join especially Russia - I have to respect that they want it, for whatever their motives are, illusions or not.

The Ukraine before never existed as an entity in the borders it was given two decades ago. And it should never have been given these borders, for this enforcment of unnatural borders repeats the mistake that so often was made in the Middle East - to force together what does not belong together and could not live well together, in this case a huge group of people that wants to stay with Russia and a great group of people that at no cost wants to stay with Russia but wants to head towards Europe. None of these two groups has the right to demand the other to follow the other side's demand. So split them. In case of the Crimean people, a clear majority of people there wanted to leave Kiev's rule. In case of the separatist forces, it also is clear. The only question is if whether the territories they claim are inhbaited by a clea rm ajori8ty of people that also want to join Russia - which is in doubt even after the separatist refernedum.

I am against national state. The states are biggest criminals of all, and they have seized a monopoly for crime and illegal rule.

Whether the Scots want to stay or fall away from englöand, is nothign you must be asked for. Nor is it up to you to decide whether the Catalonians are "allowed" to leace Spain - that is completely the issue of those who are concerned: the Catalonians. And so it is with any other regional population.

Deny them that right, and force them into line by force, and you are not better than the government in the former GDR that erected a wall to prevent people fleeing from its tyranny. Or a Stalin. Even a Hitler. Or any dictator that declared to have the right to use force to force people under his rule.

You only can claim that you want to get asked when others want to join with you. Not when they want to leave you and escape from you.

What you declare as your view on all this, in principle is nothing else but the classical imperial position on subjugating other people by force against their will - for the fame of the holy and glorious empire. This is beside relgions the most prominent reason in history for causing war and misery and suffering. There is no moral excuse for it. Never. Only imperial excuses.

[ikalugin]

... are you dumb or what ? There wount be any proofs for you kid. There are only video footages, about which you think is fake or false, think whatever u want, but I'm telling thinks that I know of. Most of our captured pro-russian fighters in August were ordinary speraratists, but some of them had documents that belonged to russian ordinary army men.
Why not present the objective proofs so that the other (most respected) members of this forum could see them and support your position?

I would welcome all the video footage that you could link (provided it follows the rules of these forums of course), however I still would ask: as to why did you link the video that does not provide any evidence within it of Russian (Armed Forces) participation (no markings, uniforms, uniform elements, tatoos, the subject is not mention by anyone within the video)?

[Oberon]

Because I was fighting in the Ukraine for one month in Lughansk region, covering the Azov unit from flank positions. I know more than you can imagine. I was lithuanian volunteer there. So save your fairy tales to somebody else =]


Since we're talking about evidence here.

Got some? :hmmm:

[sailor_X]

Why not present the objective proofs so that the other (most respected) members of this forum could see them and support your position?

I would welcome all the video footage that you could link (provided it follows the rules of these forums of course), however I still would ask: as to why did you link the video that does not provide any evidence within it of Russian (Armed Forces) participation (no markings, uniforms, uniform elements, tatoos, the subject is not mention by anyone within the video)?

I was not a camera man there, so stop asking me about proofs I will be no capable to show you. All I can say is there were lots of russian troops with no markings, but their documents gave them away who they were, rank, division, blood group etc. I wish I could be the investigator where captured russian soldiers were brought to, prhaps I could tell u more.

[Skybird]

The Azow batallion has a reputation that one should not try to boast with in the West, and especially not when talking with Germans. At leats it is extremely right-wing - to call it Neo-Nazi probably is closer to the real thing. Its commander just recently was rewarded the seat of policie chief in Kiev. His reported biography and reputation is dubious, to put it mildly.

[ikalugin]

I was not a camera man there, so stop asking me about proofs I will be no capable to show you. All I can say is there were lots of russian troops with no markings, but their documents gave them away who they were, rank, division, blood group etc. I wish I could be the investigator where captured russian soldiers were brought to, prhaps I could tell u more.
I see. Please avoid posting such misleading videos in the future then.

So why would those allegedly Russian troops, who do not wear markings or their normal uniforms as to avoid identification, carry the full documentation with them?

[sailor_X]

I see. Please avoid posting such misleading videos in the future then.

So why would those allegedly Russian troops, who do not wear markings or their normal uniforms as to avoid identification, carry the full documentation with them?

They have to have documents to show them to their own officers if asked.

[sailor_X]

The Azow batallion has a reputation that one should not try to boast with in the West, and especially not when talking with Germans. At leats it is extremely right-wing - to call it Neo-Nazi probably is closer to the real thing. Its commander just recently was rewarded the seat of policie chief in Kiev. His reported biography and reputation is dubious, to put it mildly.

I'm a right wing person myself, so what's your point ?

[sailor_X]

Since we're talking about evidence here.

Got some? :hmmm:

Plenty of youtube. if you still don't trust, get a trip there.

[Skybird]

Oooopsala, now the debate will get hot: the Daily Mail refers to a Russian broadcaster who presented satellite images of which the TV station claims they illustrate the AAM-attack of a Mig-29 against shot-down Malaysian airliner MH17.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2835088/Is-moment-MH17-shot-flew-Ukraine-Russian-state-broadcaster-produces-satellite-images-showing-fighter-jet-attack.html

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/11/14/1415993353768_wps_22_Russian_Channel_1_shows_v.jpg

The image indeed looks like a fighter with shape matching that of a Mig launching a missile.

The focus now must be on "time" and "location". Location being more important. I wonder whether that can be concluded from the ground surface.

It also must be examined whether the photo has been manipulated or not.

[mapuc]

I for one don't think the Leader in NATO is lying when they say there are ordinary Russian soldiers in Eastern Ukraine.

The next question is...what are they doing there?

Fighting side by side with the separatist?
Helping the civilians ?
or both ?

Markus

[Skybird]

I'm a right wing person myself, so what's your point ?Point is I hate Nazis. And most people on this board as well hate Nazis. You fight a lost cause in this forum. Get away.

[ikalugin]

They have to have documents to show them to their own officers if asked.
You mean their commanding officers that know them personally?

And why would they carry the full load of normal military documents (which Russian troops do not carry to combat mission, even on home soil) and not special ID cards or at worst regular civilian documents (such as Passport)?

[sailor_X]

Oooopsala, now the debate will get hot: the Daily Mail refers to a Russian broadcaster who presented satellite images of which the TV station claims they illustrate the AAM-attack of a Mig-29 against shot-down Malaysian airliner MA17.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2835088/Is-moment-MH17-shot-flew-Ukraine-Russian-state-broadcaster-produces-satellite-images-showing-fighter-jet-attack.html

The image indeed looks like a fighter with shape matching that of a Mig launching a missile.

The focus now must be on "time" and "location". Location being more important. I wonder whether that can be concluded from the ground surface.

"Daily Mail refers to a Russian broadcaster" Of course this tells "a lot" yeah right and the 9/11 was also made by americans right?. Seriously ? I just hate that kind of morons..

[sailor_X]

Point is I hate Nazis. And most people on this board as well hate Nazis. You fight a lost cause in this forum. Get away.

hatered will get you killed, sadly I don't care =]

[sailor_X]

You mean their commanding officers that know them personally?

And why would they carry the full load of normal military documents (which Russian troops do not carry to combat mission, even on home soil) and not special ID cards or at worst regular civilian documents (such as Passport)?

How the hell should I know why are they so dumb, perhaps this way is more common for commanders to ID them..

[ikalugin]

Oooopsala, now the debate will get hot: the Daily Mail refers to a Russian broadcaster who presented satellite images of which the TV station claims they illustrate the AAM-attack of a Mig-29 against shot-down Malaysian airliner MA17.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2835088/Is-moment-MH17-shot-flew-Ukraine-Russian-state-broadcaster-produces-satellite-images-showing-fighter-jet-attack.html

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/11/14/1415993353768_wps_22_Russian_Channel_1_shows_v.jpg

The image indeed looks like a fighter with shape matching that of a Mig launching a missile.

The focus now must be on "time" and "location". Location being more important. I wonder whether that can be concluded from the ground surface.

It also must be examined whether the photo has been manipulated or not.
Sadly, as far as I know this is a photoshop fake - note the cloud formations.

Point is I hate Nazis. And most people on this board as well hate Nazis. You fight a lost cause in this forum. Get away.
I don't think that he has clearly stated that he is a NAZI just yet. That said Baltic states (and to an extend Ukraine) openly promote the SS veterans and SS related organisations.

[ikalugin]

How the hell should I know why are they so dumb, perhaps this way is more common for commanders to ID them..
Maybe they were not dumb (or incompetent, as Russian troops do not carry their normal military documents into the combat missions, even on home soil), but the information itself is faulty?

[Oberon]

Plenty of youtube. if you still don't trust, get a trip there.

Despite my great-grandparents being from your neck of the woods, I am a bit too far west to get to Ukraine in any affordable matter, plus my combat skills are next to non-existent and I would likely be either assigned to guard Pripyat or returned to sender.

My request for proof though is related to your claim of service in Ukraine, as opposed to proof of Russians in Ukraine which is a discussion I've already been through in this thread about four hundred times.

[sailor_X]

Skybird by his nature should just feed the birds and water flowers, instead bubbling around the things he's not familiar with =]

[Oberon]

In regards to the picture from that Daily Mail article:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x145/starrarte/macros/this-looks-shopped-i-can-tell-from-.jpg

[sailor_X]

Maybe they were not dumb (or incompetent, as Russian troops do not carry their normal military documents into the combat missions, even on home soil), but the information itself is faulty?

Maybe, maybe, ask God I bet he knows the answer.. :)

[sailor_X]

Despite my great-grandparents being from your neck of the woods, I am a bit too far west to get to Ukraine in any affordable matter, plus my combat skills are next to non-existent and I would likely be either assigned to guard Pripyat or returned to sender.

My request for proof though is related to your claim of service in Ukraine, as opposed to proof of Russians in Ukraine which is a discussion I've already been through in this thread about four hundred times.

You know, it's always better to see things once, than to hear a thousand times about it =]

[kranz]

So why would those allegedly Russian troops,
there are no alleged Russian troops. They ARE russian troops. I already posted a youtube vid confirming that a couple of posts ago - you just decided to disregard it and preferred to stay in your sick and imaginative world of peaceful russia.

@Tribesman
Poland, to some extent, participated in partitioning Czechoslovakia.
My example was good, but as usual - you have to both re-read and re-think the stuff you quote.

@Oberon
stop trolling.

@sailor_X
ikalguin is not worth your time here. I tried to argue with him - he either doesn't reply to facts presented or just repeats his BS about 'ukrainian terrorists'.

[ikalugin]

ukrainian terrorists
Where did I use that term?

there are no alleged Russian troops. They ARE russian troops. I already posted a youtube vid confirming that a couple of posts ago - you just decided to disregard it and preferred to stay in your sick and imaginative world of peaceful russia.
Where?

[Oberon]

You know, it's always better to see things once, than to hear a thousand times about it =]

True, but to quote an old adage "Trust, but verify". :shucks:

[sailor_X]

True, but to quote an old adage "Trust, but verify". :shucks:

Knowledge is a weapon, if you have it, no verification is required.

[Oberon]

Knowledge is a weapon, if you have it, no verification is required.

Knowledge is power, but what use is power if no-one knows that you have it? Nor are prepared to use it?

[Skybird]

The airliner in the photo has two engines and it looks like a long body if judging that against the form of the wings. It seems to be a long plane, with twin-engine configuration - and that matches indeed the shape of a 777 that the downed MA17 has been.

The body length of a 777 is 63-73 meters, depending on specific model. If measuring the length of the airliner versus the distance between the fighter and the airliner, I find the distance to be around 9.5x the length of the airliner. Calculating with a airliner length of 70 meters, the shooting distance then is around 660 meters. That is the range for an infrared-guided short range AAM.

The pilot must have had visual contact then. At same altitude, he probably could not see the engine configuration, could not see whether there were two or four engines, the silhouette would allowed to see that if being at a higher or lower altitude, maybe. Maybe the pilot got an idea of the colour scheme, however.

And here we are at that old scenario again that was described as a possibility some weeks earlier - that maybe it was an intentional Ukrainian attack against the presidential Russian machine, an IL-96 with 4 engines. As I earlier showed, the colours schemes are anything but impossible to be mistaken.

http://teluguandhranews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/plane1.jpg

Examination of this satellite image is needed. Trust in official Western sources is not justified - they are propaganda tools like Ukrainian and Russian official channels as well.

Note that the blue-red lines on both airlines are ABOVE the height level of wings and engines, they are not being partially blocked by the engines if looking at the planes from same altitude or slightly elevated position. I think for a pilot in that situation, that hprizonmtal line acros the full length of the main body served as a main hint for the pilot to identity the "Russian presidential plane".

[sailor_X]

The closest picture of what I could find in youtube during my brief duty was about there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbN2vaRwvYU

We were fighting in fields back then, covering the advance of Azov batallion I was armed with light machine gun and a Glock pistol. During day time we were advancing, but at night we had to take cover in trenches or underground shelters, because of heavy firing of prorussian forces. Every day was like an eternity. But there I was, fighting along Ukrainian forces in fields and long grass. I can't tell if I killed somebody during my firinings to enemy, because of great distance, but I'm glad that I survived it. The war itself is a crazy thing, but it is what it is.

[sailor_X]

Knowledge is power, but what use is power if no-one knows that you have it? Nor are prepared to use it?

For enemy is better to know that you have no power, but surprise them is always a pleasure =]

[ikalugin]

The closest picture of what I could find in youtube during my brief duty was about there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbN2vaRwvYU

We were fighting in fields back then, covering the advance of Azov batallion I was armed with light machine gun and a Glock pistol. During day time we were advancing, but at night we had to take cover in trenches or underground shelters, because of heavy firing of prorussian forces. Every day was like an eternity. But there I was, fighting along Ukrainian forces in fields and long grass. I can't tell if I killed somebody during my firinings to enemy, because of great distance, but I'm glad that I survived it. The war itself is a crazy thing, but it is what it is.
So no proofs?

[Sailor Steve]

I've been asked to lock this thread. For reasons of my own I'm not going to do that right now. Of course in just one day it has grown by four pages, none of them really going anywhere. I will say this though.

... are you dumb or what ?
We would prefer if you could argue without calling people names, or making demeaning comments without furthering the discussion.

I was not a camera man there, so stop asking me about proofs I will be no capable to show you.
If you want to talk about your belief in something, that's fine. Do not, however, make claims without having proof ready to hand. If you claim it, you are expected to prove it. Otherwise it is just rumor.

hatered will get you killed, sadly I don't care =]
This sounds very much like a threat. Also posting in anger and then accusing the other person of hatred is not a good idea.

Skybird by his nature should just feed the birds and water flowers, instead bubbling around the things he's not familiar with
Suggesting what another member "should" or "shouldn't" do is also not something we approve of here. If you can disprove his arguments, do so. If not, don't tell others not to post.

Knowledge is a weapon, if you have it, no verification is required.
Maybe you think you know something, but we do not. If you can't verify it then it is only your opinion. That is fine, but if you claim something is fact you are expected to verify the facts, or else say that it is only your opinion.

there are no alleged Russian troops. They ARE russian troops. I already posted a youtube vid confirming that a couple of posts ago
This is fine.

your sick and imaginative world of peaceful russia.
This is not.

@Oberon
stop trolling.
Do you consider what he wrote to be trolling? If so, please report his post. Otherwise read my above statement concerning telling others what they can or cannot say here.

@sailor_X
ikalguin is not worth your time here. I tried to argue with him - he either doesn't reply to facts presented or just repeats his BS about 'ukrainian terrorists'.
This is something better said in private. Saying it publically comes under the heading of comments intentionally designed to provoke.

It would be nice if future comments from all sides would be contained to the argument itself. That's as polite a warning as I know how to give.

[ikalugin]

That's as polite a warning as I know how to give.
Thanks :salute:

Speaking for myself, I would redouble my efforts to uphold the posting standards of this forum.

[Oberon]

For enemy is better to know that you have no power, but surprise them is always a pleasure =]

A fair point admittedly, to be unknown is to be unconquerable. :hmmm:

[sailor_X]

A fair point admittedly, to be unknown is to be unconquerable. :hmmm:

Right, as stalking an unaware convoy out of the blue in SH3 =]

Trojan Horse method \o/

[sailor_X]

I've been asked to lock this thread. For reasons of my own I'm not going to do that right now. Of course in just one day it has grown by four pages, none of them really going anywhere. I will say this though.


We would prefer if you could argue without calling people names, or making demeaning comments without furthering the discussion.


If you want to talk about your belief in something, that's fine. Do not, however, make claims without having proof ready to hand. If you claim it, you are expected to prove it. Otherwise it is just rumor.


This sounds very much like a threat. Also posting in anger and then accusing the other person of hatred is not a good idea.


Suggesting what another member "should" or "shouldn't" do is also not something we approve of here. If you can disprove his arguments, do so. If not, don't tell others not to post.


Maybe you think you know something, but we do not. If you can't verify it then it is only your opinion. That is fine, but if you claim something is fact you are expected to verify the facts, or else say that it is only your opinion.


This is fine.


This is not.


Do you consider what he wrote to be trolling? If so, please report his post. Otherwise read my above statement concerning telling others what they can or cannot say here.


This is something better said in private. Saying it publically comes under the heading of comments intentionally designed to provoke.

It would be nice if future comments from all sides would be contained to the argument itself. That's as polite a warning as I know how to give.

Too many rules and restrictions IMO. Why not to make ONE thread without cyber police to allow ppl express themselves as they wish on their own risk in expression ? With every imaginable precautious warning signs for soft souls ? =] As like in a PURGE movie =]

[sailor_X]

So no proofs?

There are no proofs to you or Russia, that has it's own understanding in history. Do the teachers of History still teach u in schools to believe that Baltic nations agreed to join CCCP in 1940 by their own will ? =] Do they teach you about criminal Stalinism regime that tortured and departured people from various countries to Syberia sending them to death just because they had different attitude of believes ? =] Did they teach you that children of those "political criminals" that were also sentenced to death just because they were children of those "political criminals" ? Do they teach you now, that your nation is becoming somewhat North Korea type of nation by showing off the NATO and USA as potential enemy to you ? Does your media form a hostile attitude towards west day by day ?

Who the hell are u to ask me for proofs while being yourself a creation of primitive criminals in roots of your nations past ?

This should be me who sould ask you is your conscience clear towards us, deffinetly not u demanding me for proofs. You're not authorised to demand anything. You will only get what western countries will let you get, and that is it.

[Sailor Steve]

Too many rules and restrictions IMO. Why not to make ONE thread without cyber police to allow ppl express themselves as they wish on their own risk in expression ? With every imaginable precautious warning signs for soft souls ? =] As like in a PURGE movie =]
You prefer absolute chaos? Maybe rampant flaming? Sorry, Subsim strives to be better than the average website. There are plenty of places for that kind of childishness. The rules here apply to everybody, and they will not change. This leaves only one choice - conform to the rules or face the consequences.

There are no proofs to you or Russia, that has it's own understanding in history.
That, and the paragraph that follows, are a valid challenge, and the question does deserve an answer.

Who the hell are u to ask me for proofs while being yourself a creation of primitive criminals in roots of your nations past ?
That is not. That's enough of the name-calling and insults. This is your last warning.

This should be me who sould ask you is your conscience clear towards us, deffinetly not u demanding me for proofs. You're not authorised to demand anything. You will only get what western countries will let you get, and that is it.
Any time you make a claim, anyone is entitled to ask for proof. That includes people you don't like. If you can't give the proof, don't make the claim.

[Dowly]

Not unless you hug me first. :hmph:

[Dowly]

If it's in the name of who-shalt-not-be-named, you can suck a shotgun. :O:

[nikimcbee]

Not unless you hug me first. :hmph:

Are you taking offers? Do I have to take a number?:hmmm:

[Sailor Steve]

I also see from another thread that an old adage needs to be stated again:

Drinking and posting don't mix. :ping:

[Buddahaid]

I also see from another thread that an old adage needs to be stated again:

Drinking and posting don't mix. :ping:

Yep. Sometimes I mail things to the wrong people. :salute:

[ikalugin]

There are no proofs to you or Russia, that has it's own understanding in history. Do the teachers of History still teach u in schools to believe that Baltic nations agreed to join CCCP in 1940 by their own will ? =] Do they teach you about criminal Stalinism regime that tortured and departured people from various countries to Syberia sending them to death just because they had different attitude of believes ? =] Did they teach you that children of those "political criminals" that were also sentenced to death just because they were children of those "political criminals" ? Do they teach you now, that your nation is becoming somewhat North Korea type of nation by showing off the NATO and USA as potential enemy to you ? Does your media form a hostile attitude towards west day by day ?

Who the hell are u to ask me for proofs while being yourself a creation of primitive criminals in roots of your nations past ?

This should be me who sould ask you is your conscience clear towards us, deffinetly not u demanding me for proofs. You're not authorised to demand anything. You will only get what western countries will let you get, and that is it.
So it appears that you lack evidence and now decide to attack the person (and country) rather than conduct a civilised discussion and provide the evidence.

p.s. for the reference - I did not study Soviet history at school because for the last 4 years (4.3 if you count the summer term I took to accustom myself to the new environment) of my school education (when those topics are normally covered by the school history classes) I have studied abroad, in the UK to be specific.

[Jimbuna]

I think it might be best if everyone took note of and heeded the advice given by Steve.

TIA

[ikalugin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bqyNqp2zwQc
A video depicting a combat assault medic team, supporting the Right Sector units (and Ukranian Loyalists in general). It has some interesting footage and in general shows the good side of the Loyalist's forces.

Curiously it appears that both sides uses ample UAV support (mentioned by the team member).

[ikalugin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pH_tYB_Ntlg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gotK5DLdVvI
An interesting game to play I think.

[Oberon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pH_tYB_Ntlg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gotK5DLdVvI
An interesting game to play I think.

Indeed, heard good things about it.
Sadly an all too common story in the world. One day it could be us, something that this advert was very good in pointing out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBQ-IoHfimQ

[kranz]

Skybird by his nature should just feed the birds and water flowers, instead bubbling around the things he's not familiar with =]
don't underestimate skybird. He holds a PhD in what you mentioned.



Where?
it was already posted. take your time and find it.
I've been asked to lock this thread.


yes, yes. People write to you to ask you to close threads.
You are a very important person here. I can even repeat it: You are a very important person here.
Now in bold: You are a very important person here
Happy?
For reasons of my own I'm not going to do that right now.
Fair enough. Keep the half of the private message you got a secret and reveal the other half ('close the thread') :up:


Of course in just one day it has grown by four pages, none of them really going anywhere. I will say this though.
only because no one reacted when I asked you to pay special attention to one single troll in this thread. You've neglected my advice - now you're 'reaping the whirlwind'.


We would prefer if you could argue without calling people names, or making demeaning comments without furthering the discussion.


he didn't do that, to be precise. He just asked him a question.


Do not, however, make claims without having proof ready to hand. If you claim it, you are expected to prove it. Otherwise it is just rumor.

Claims based on facts were already posted. Too bad there is at least one person in this thread who is deliberately ignoring them yet he wasn't mentioned in your sermon.


This sounds very much like a threat. Also posting in anger and then accusing the other person of hatred is not a good idea.

online threats? The Carepolice will investigate it THOROUGHLY.


This is fine.

This is not.

both are fine.
I already explained it - you probably haven't read it.

Do you consider what he wrote to be trolling? If so, please report his post. Otherwise read my above statement concerning telling others what they can or cannot say here.

this is my favorite one.
post #1790
Oberon tells me to stop trolling.
Sailor Steve - no reaction.

post #1870
I tell Oberon to stop trolling.
Sailor Steve - 'you mustn't tell people what they can/cannot say.'

Full Kappa.


You prefer absolute chaos?

he might be asking for unbiased moderation.


Any time you make a claim, anyone is entitled to ask for proof. That includes people you don't like. If you can't give the proof, don't make the claim.


Sorry, but I have to repeat it - the proofs were already posted.
By asking for proof for like 100 hundred times, ikalugin has been trolling. By letting him do that, you've become his accomplice. As simple as that.


So it appears that you lack evidence and now decide to attack the person (and country) rather than conduct a civilised discussion and provide the evidence.

you see?:har::har::har:


I did not study Soviet history at school
I knew that as soon as you opened your mouth here aka by saying that we can't really compare Stalin to Hitler' aka Stalin was much better than Hitler.
Another person joining the 'I have no frigging idea what I'm talking about but I'll make a few posts on that subject' club.

On top of that, you haven't read the FAQ and the rules of conduct, have you?

[ikalugin]

There is this thing called self education. Also - if you have something to say, say it. As to the video that you have allegedly posted, I have checked your post history and did not find it in the last few posts within this thread.

Unless of course Sailor-X and yourself are in fact a single user, but I find that highly unlikely.

Otherwise I will try to stay out of your argument with a mod.

[Oberon]

Unless of course Sailor-X and yourself are in fact a single user, but I find that highly unlikely.

I dunno...we are, remember? :03: :haha:

[Sailor Steve]

don't underestimate skybird. He holds a PhD in what you mentioned.
If you're saying that Skybird holds a PhD in feeding birds and watering flowers, that is exactly the kind of personal insult we are trying to avoid here. If not, please explain.

it was already posted. take your time and find it.
When someone asks where something was said, it's your job to point it out. "It was already posted" helps no one.

yes, yes. People write to you to ask you to close threads.
You are a very important person here. I can even repeat it: You are a very important person here.
Now in bold: You are a very important person here
Happy?
I never said I was important. I was trying to explain why I didn't close the thread. You seem to be looking for a fight with this comment. Please don't.

Fair enough. Keep the half of the private message you got a secret and reveal the other half ('close the thread') :up:
It wasn't a PM, it was a reported post in the Moderators' Forum. The reason given was that both parties in this "discussion" are becoming more hostile with each post. I chose to give a warning first. You might want to heed it.

only because no one reacted when I asked you to pay special attention to one single troll in this thread. You've neglected my advice - now you're 'reaping the whirlwind'.
Only because he's not the the main one making sarcastic and insulting remarks. As for "reaping the whirlwind", you might want to heed your own advice.

he didn't do that, to be precise. He just asked him a question.
He asked him a rhetorical question, implying that the question itself contained the answer. It's a very common and roundabout way of insulting someone.

Claims based on facts were already posted. Too bad there is at least one person in this thread who is deliberately ignoring them yet he wasn't mentioned in your sermon.
Again, if they are already posted it is the responsibility of the person refering to them to link to them, so no one has to search the entire thread to find them. You are correct about one thing - you did ask for proof of a claim earlier and it was ignored. I hope the other person will get this message as well.

online threats? The Carepolice will investigate it THOROUGHLY.
Your sarcasm is not welcome.


both are fine.
I already explained it - you probably haven't read it.
No. You posted a direct insult, and not only is that not fine, it is not allowed.

this is my favorite one.
post #1790
Oberon tells me to stop trolling.
Sailor Steve - no reaction.

post #1870
I tell Oberon to stop trolling.
Sailor Steve - 'you mustn't tell people what they can/cannot say.'
I admit I haven't followed this thread regularly, having no opinion one way or the other, and I missed the post you refer to. I only became involved because of the post report.

he might be asking for unbiased moderation.
No, he specifically asked for one thread with no moderation at all. That is not going to happen.

Sorry, but I have to repeat it - the proofs were already posted.
Then it should be easy to link to them, rather than make somebody new to the thread have to go look for them.

By asking for proof for like 100 hundred times, ikalugin has been trolling. By letting him do that, you've become his accomplice. As simple as that.
"Accomplice"? The behavior I saw and addressed was one member openly insulting another and calling him names. I'm willing to cut him some slack because he posted in another thread that he had been drinking and may have been wrong. While that is not a valid excuse, he at least did admit it.

you see?:har::har::har:
What I don't see is you showing the evidence. Please provide a link and discuss the topic. Of course it's also possible that this evidence was refuted at the time. That remains to be seen.

What I do see is you using sarcasm and demeaning and derogatory language and behaving like this is some sort of contest. It's not.

I knew that as soon as you opened your mouth here aka by saying that we can't really compare Stalin to Hitler' aka Stalin was much better than Hitler.
Another person joining the 'I have no frigging idea what I'm talking about but I'll make a few posts on that subject' club.
You call him a "troll" several times, yet your own comments are as insulting as you can make them. I suggest that you stick to discussing the topic.

On top of that, you haven't read the FAQ and the rules of conduct, have you?
It would appear that you have not.
"The Radio Room forum is not the place for flaming, spewing, or otherwise mouthing off."

Please contain yourself to discussing the topic.

[Oberon]

How many warnings does a thread get before it's taken offline? :hmmm:

[MH]

How many warnings does a thread get before it's taken offline? :hmmm:

Agreed .... we should play only the four world story and practice safe sex with ourselves.

....sorry but you sound like that.:haha:

This thread is a bit heated but OK.

[Oberon]

Agreed .... we should play only the four world story and practice safe sex with ourselves.

....sorry but you sound like that.:haha:

This thread is a bit heated but OK.

I guess it's up to the mods to decide what type of thread and image they want in GT, but to be honest I don't see this thread progressing much further between the two sides that we have. No one is going to convince anyone about it, no-one is going to agree on the details of the war, and civility is a frayed thing.

Still, not in my hands, I'm not a mod and I guess I should try to stop back-seat modding and just let things slide. It doesn't really matter I suppose. :hmmm:

[CCIP]

Let's not forget a "silent majority" that, IMO, gets increasingly silenced when they see this kind of antagonism in GT. I already said a couple of thoughts on that subject in another thread a couple of weeks ago, and I know I'm not the only one who was thinking that. It might be all good sport for the people immediately involved, but I really do think the negative tone hurts people's eagerness to participate in the long run. I know it's had that effect on me :hmmm:

[Skybird]

How many warnings does a poster get before he is taken out? :hmmm:
Corrected that for you.

But maybe repeatingly calling names is a virtue, GT is heaven, and angel's patience thus is appropriate.

Certain themes I would have banned from GT already years ago, amongst them many political and almost all religious topics. Would have saved me from many conflicts. But its the board owners house - board owner's rules. If he has rules like these, he gets the result as they are. It seems he wants it like that, then. Nobody should complain, then. It's Stay or Leave.

No surprises there.

[Catfish]

What i see here, is the typical cliché perpetrated in the media.

1. Russians are evil (why change, it worked during the soviet days).
2. Poland is anti-soviet, and unfortunately also anti post-soviet russian.
3. Baltic states are also anti russian, see Poland.
4. USA has been anti-russian since its founding. Did not prevent them from buying russian iron needed for their way of industrial revolution, but ..
5. Logically, the NATO is also anti-russian. They do not really have a reason, apart from being dependent on having an enemy to justify their existence after 1989, and so why not Russia (see point 1.)

Really, does Poland or Finland, or one of the three baltic states think Russia is going to invade them anytime soon ? Or in the next 20 years ?
Russia is so big they really have other problems.


Back on topic:
So when the West supports a government against Russia it is ok, but when Russia tries to do the same it is evil. Ah ok i forgot, WE are the good.

But it was not even about politics, it was about trade. Because just of all in capitalism, real competition is not wanted.
After all it is not really so complicated, good old imperial hegemony, eh?

[MH]

Back on topic:
So when the West supports a government against Russia it is ok, but when Russia tries to do the same it is evil. Ah ok i forgot, WE are the good.



Good question.
Ask the Ukrainians.

....on another hand we can always talk about geopolitics.

[Skybird]

Good question.
Ask the Ukrainians.
Which ones - those wanting to go West or those wanting to go Russia?

I think there is no such thing like "the Ukrainians". And Russia - tracks its history back to the region around Kiev. And that is no post-Sovjet wet dream, but historic reality.

The problems in this conflict come from thinking of "the Ukraine" and "the Ukrainians", as if there were just a unified "one". There isn't, obviously. 23 years ago, they should have decided for two national entities instead.

The conflict will stay alive as long as this gets rejected. that simple it is. And it is like this in several other regions as well. Balkans. Caucasian area.

Ironically the international community instead prioritizes a two state solution in the one big case were a two state solution in no way would help to bring the peace the West wrongly assume would be helped by it: Israel and the Palestinian Arabs. It seems Western leaders have it in their genes to mess up border-drawings. The whole ME and its modern history is a good exmaple for that intellectual deficit.

As long as it is not intentional: divide et conquer.

[MH]

Which ones - those wanting to go West or those wanting to go Russia?

I think there is no such thing like "the Ukrainians". And Russia - tracks its history back to the region around Kiev. And that is no post-Sovjet wet dream, but historic reality.

The problems in this conflict come from thinking of "the Ukraine" and "the Ukrainians", as if there were just a unified "one". There isn't, obviously. 23 years ago, they should have decided for two national entities instead.

The conflict will stay alive as long as this gets rejected. that simple it is. And it is like this in several other regions as well. Balkans. Caucasian area.

The latest elections show that there is regardless of historical "Russian brotherhood".

23 years ago, they should have decided for two national entities instead.


Possibly it is true as it turn out.
They should split up the way Czechoslovakia did.:hmmm:

[Skybird]

The latest elections show that there is regardless of historical "Russian brotherhood".
What do you try to say? Cannot compute.

Elections were held in most of the country, but not the separatist regions and the Crimean.

That the western and central region want to go into the EU, does not mean that we would be well advised to let them in. It is a deeply corrupted, since over 20 years failing state that fails since two decades to get rid of its criminal elites and oligarchic control of politics. They want to go into the EU , becasue they think that means they get easy access to lots of money that they want. Money that you and me get stripped of, and that to significant degrees will disappear in the pockets of said criminal structures.

People have a right to want something, or to ask for something. They have no right to demand that the reply always must be according to their desires.

European people must not be asked if one sub-region of theirs wants to split away. It s a regional people's natural right to do so. But if some group from the outside wants to join - then that group has to ask europpean people for sure. And in this case we would accept only costs and investments, and no compensation for that in sight. Anmd it is not as if we have no finajcial problems already. In fact the finance system is in such a miserable state now that it could blow all Europe apart. The EU doe snot need more hungry mouthes at the table that must be fed. We cannot even handle the crisis over Greece, Malta, Italy, France, Romania, the Balkans...

A union that always allows in the weak and ill, does not become strong and healthy by that, but weaker and more ill. So: be choosy!

And leave the bills to Russia, if you want to hurt it! ;)

[Oberon]

Geopolitics is a big part of the problem, likewise Spheres of Influence.

I mean, let's face it, nearly every major power has set up puppet governments or intervened openly or covertly in civil wars. The US has, Russia/Soviet Union has, China has, the UK has, pretty sure the major European powers have done as well.

We're not so much in a glass house, but made of glass inside a glass house with hand grenades instead of stones.


In my personal opinion, opinion mind you, both sides in the Ukrainian civil war need to cut their losses and go for peace, hammered out between the US/EU and Russia, in regards to a neutral party...that could be tricky, perhaps one of the nations from the Non-Aligned Movement, maybe Bangladesh or Papua New Guinea. :hmmm: Russia will absorb the parts that the pro-Russian movement holds at the moment, and Ukraine will keep the other parts. The EU/US and Russia split the bill between them in equal measures and NATO forces are restricted to the number they can deploy into Ukraine, likewise Russia into their sections, to be monitored by the UN (because Ukraine will apply to NATO as soon as it can, likewise the EU), either that or something akin to the agreements reached on the division of Germany.
It sounds a bit 1938, I must admit, but the alternatives...well, would make WWII look like kindergarden. :nope:

[MH]

European people must not be asked if one sub-region of theirs wants to split away. It s a regional people's natural right to do so. But if some group from the outside wants to join - then that group has to ask europpean people for sure.

This is entirely different issue that doesn't make Ukrainians the Russians.:haha:

[Skybird]

Geopolitics is a big part of the problem, likewise Spheres of Influence.

I mean, let's face it, nearly every major power has set up puppet governments or intervened openly or covertly in civil wars. The US has, Russia/Soviet Union has, China has, the UK has, pretty sure the major European powers have done as well.

We're not so much in a glass house, but made of glass inside a glass house with hand grenades instead of stones.


In my personal opinion, opinion mind you, both sides in the Ukrainian civil war need to cut their losses and go for peace, hammered out between the US/EU and Russia, in regards to a neutral party...that could be tricky, perhaps one of the nations from the Non-Aligned Movement, maybe Bangladesh or Papua New Guinea. :hmmm: Russia will absorb the parts that the pro-Russian movement holds at the moment, and Ukraine will keep the other parts. The EU/US and Russia split the bill between them in equal measures and NATO forces are restricted to the number they can deploy into Ukraine, likewise Russia into their sections, to be monitored by the UN (because Ukraine will apply to NATO as soon as it can, likewise the EU), either that or something akin to the agreements reached on the division of Germany.
It sounds a bit 1938, I must admit, but the alternatives...well, would make WWII look like kindergarden. :nope:

I agree for the most. I just remind once again that just because the Westukraine may apply for EU or NATO, EU or NATO have no automatic obligation to comply. I would prefer to have both West- and Eastukraine being demilitarised of NATO and Russian forces, and by that serving as a pufferzone between Russian and NATO forces, instead of having them standing at a border that from West- and Eastukrainian nationalists will be questioned, negotiated and tested. Mind you, the politicians representing Kiev today are anything but harmless, law-obeying philantropists. It is insane to put trust into the potlical order and elte that currently forms the poltical class in the Ukraine. Again: that is true for the separatists - and the establishment in Kiev et al. as well.

We have no reason to trust any side. None.

[Oberon]

I agree for the most. I just remind once again that just because the Westukraine may apply for EU or NATO, EU or NATO have no automatic obligation to comply. I would prefer to have both West- and Eastukraine being demilitarised of NATO and Russian forces, and by that serving as a pufferzone between Russian and NATO forces, instead of having them standing at a border that from West- and Eastukrainian nationalists will be questioned, negotiated and tested. Mind you, the politicians representing Kiev today are anything but harmless, law-obeying philantropists. It is insane to put trust into the potlical order and elte that currently forms the poltical class in the Ukraine. Again: that is true for the separatists - and the establishment in Kiev et al. as well.

We have no reason to trust any side. None.

That would be preferable...but I don't think it would last, sadly, because there would be militarisation at some point either by the pro-Russian side to take/liberate more territory or by the Ukrainian government for the same reason. In short neither side can really be trusted to not attack the other, sadly. NATO and Russia have much better fire discipline, so if they were to take over border control then there would be a bit more stability in the area. Furthermore, if there is cross-border fire, it can be trusted not to escalate into full out conflict because neither Russia or NATO would find it in their interests to actually fight each other.

[Skybird]

East- and Westgermans were not really hot about starting a shooting war against each other, the division was enforced against Germans' will, so your idea of having Russian and Allied troops in both states worked in the sense you outlined it, at least in the Western part. But in the Ukraine, you cannot take that for granted, that West- and Eastukrainian warlords and oligarchs do not want to go at each other'S throats, and nationalistic sentiments boil high in both populations, it seems. So I wonder then if the people living there do not do their share in calming their temperament and keeping their politicians in check (have failed to do so since over 20 years) - why should we risk our soldiers and invest our taxes into practically occupying them in order to suppress them so that they do not start funny things with rifles and grenades again? A NATO mission in the Ukraine does not compare to the circumstances that were given in Germany.

I am against doing that mission. If they want to go crazy, for hell's sake let them. Just make clear to both sides that their playing ground ends at the Western border of the Ukraine. They will need to get along in the ruins they create. If populations allow their leaders to push things that far, then well: so be it. Why must this cost us? Haven'T we leanred a bit on miliutary nation building in the past 10 or 20 years? That it simply does not work?

Let them risk their own fighter's lives, not the lives of ours. And spend their own short resources on more war - not our resources and funds. The "revolutions" they had: they used them to just bring other criminal figures into office and to power. Why should, we want to support that at our costs?

Its not as if we are swimming in unused financial assets and could so easily support another decades-running military program like that one would be. Heck, we are practically bankrupt, in case you have not noted it. ;) And our forces are anything but in good shape and big in numbers, we had that in a thread just weeks ago. There are much bigger monsters out there we need to care for, namely the IS for example. Iran. North Korea. China. A military major mission in the Ukraine is absolutely not desirable. We simply cannot afford to do anything that somebody wants. We simply cannot. The Ukraine, and Georgia as well for that matter, are only secondary, if not tertiary, to us. Focus on what really counts for us. Set priorities. Ukraine is no priority, it is a money trap only.

Control to make them comply with an agenda of not pushing shooting frenzies too far could better and cheaper be achieved by economic and fiscal pressure, where needed. Also: that would mean to make it more costly an arrangement for Russia, economically. It will struggle more with such a status quo, than the West. Isn't that what Washington always wants: to create trouble for Moscow (without allowing them compensation)?

[Jimbuna]

On top of that, you haven't read the FAQ and the rules of conduct, have you?

I have and as such allow me to remind everyone what they say about editorial policies...

The Radio Room forum is not the place for flaming, spewing, or otherwise mouthing off. We do not allow posts where people are called idiots, morons, etc. We respect your freedom of speech, we ask that you respect our rules. You are welcome to express your opinion about games and other subjects. We do not want SUBSIM Review and the Radio Room forums to degenerate into a collection of *This game sux!!!!* and other immature rants. Like something or dislike something about a game, express your thoughts in reasoned and responsible terms. There are any number of forums which allow unbridled idiocy to reign, we want the Radio Room to be a civil, mature forum for discussions about naval and subsims, tactics, mods, playing tips, troubleshooting, and submarine topics in general. As such, we retain the right to edit and/or delete posts we find offensive. We also have the right to ban users who contribute to poisoning the well. Just as a radio talk host has the right to decide which callers he airs and a newspaper editor decides which letters he prints and which he throws away, the moderators in the Radio Room forums have final say on rants and spews they decide should be cut.

Can we all try to adhere to the above...the alternative will be moderators taking action without prior warning...a kind of zero tolerance you could call it and a position I personally would like to avoid.

I appreciate many feel passionate about certain topics but there are better ways to debate and disagree than simply resorting to name calling and insults.

[ikalugin]

Funny thing is that if Maidan didn't happen Yanukovich (and his party of regions) would still loose the elections and go out of power. Ie the whole Maidan business was politically futile. So instead of:
- peaceful.
- wholesome (with Crimea).
- wealthier (Grivna didn't fall, industrial output due to unrest in the east did not fall).
- richer (Russian loans are still given).
- with cheap gas (again Crimea is still in Ukraine and thus the agreements work).

They have what they have. Sure there was a degree of Russian intervention, but it wouldn't have happened if not for Maidan, which as I have said was politically futile. Hence one has to ask - why Maidan was so wholesomely supported by various Western parties?

[sailor_X]

Funny thing is that if Maidan didn't happen Yanukovich (and his party of regions) would still loose the elections and go out of power. Ie the whole Maidan business was politically futile. So instead of:
- peaceful.
- wholesome (with Crimea).
- wealthier (Grivna didn't fall, industrial output due to unrest in the east did not fall).
- richer (Russian loans are still given).
- with cheap gas (again Crimea is still in Ukraine and thus the agreements work).

They have what they have. Sure there was a degree of Russian intervention, but it wouldn't have happened if not for Maidan, which as I have said was politically futile. Hence one has to ask - why Maidan was so wholesomely supported by various Western parties?

Why did you joined here ? To wash away the shame of Russia's bloody hands ? You're not interested in any naval games here aren't u ? U just here to troll for Russia and against Ukraine right ?

Even with Maidan, for Russia it is not a call to capture Crimea, or start and support destabilization proccess in Eastern Ukraine.

"Sure there was a degree of Russian intervention" You said it as if mast of intervention from Russia side was close to nill, cut the bull**** will u ? Do u still hope that ppl here will believe you, or these sources of news that comes from Russia TV will be suitable for the rest of the world ?

I told you already and I will repeat myself again. I am immune to Russian propaganda because I know how it works. Any neighbours of Russia knows that.

[sailor_X]

Hence one has to ask - why Maidan was so wholesomely supported by various Western parties?

Because of this little nice song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SezoGW_z9w0 :up:

True Ukrainians were those ppl who has been in Maidan or at least supported the ppl in that square.

and not western parties were behind it, but ukrainian citizens themselves, and of course because they got pissed of being under Russias foot.

[MH]

Hey Sailor... try to be a bit cooler it will help a lot.
Don't talk about ikalugin and concentrate on what he says.
He is not a troll for sure yet you are becoming one.

[sailor_X]

Hey Sailor... try to be a bit cooler it will help a lot.
Don't talk about ikalugin and concentrate on what he says.
He is not a troll for sure yet you are becoming one.

And who are u his lawer now ? IMO he says nonsences, in polite manners. Majority of these nonsences he writes are applosible in Russia and to those who believe in military anarchy and prison laws as if the bigger can take what he wants. In worst case - with force or by tricking the rest to think that Ukraine is the one to blame, that Russia captured Crimea..

More over the ppl with lack of common sense can support Russia in this case.

[sailor_X]

Scumbag is eating alone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA-keQDAV68

The table might have also been moved closer to the toilet, such is the place to eat, for such persons...

[MH]

And who are u his lawer now ? IMO he says nonsences, in polite manners. .

That is the whole trick.:03:
When you look smart people may think you are smart or know what you are talking about.

So question is are you into letting out some steam on a Russian or explaining the case to other people that may read this.

[sailor_X]

That is the whole trick.:03:
When you look smart people may think you are smart or know what you are talking about.

So question is are you into letting out some steam on a Russian or explaining the case to other people that may read this.

Explain the case of common sense ? It's not explainable, wether u own it or not. If you have it than less or no explanation is needed, otherwise... it's a long way down the desert... so if you're still in this level I'm affraid I will have to give up on u. Discussion about discussion is not my thing. When there will be reasonable thread to respond I will respond. I spoke up my mind so far..

[MH]

Explain the case of common sense ? It's not explainable, wether u own it or not. If you have it than less or no explanation is needed, otherwise... it's a long way down the desert... so if you're still in this level I'm affraid I will have to give up on u. Discussion about discussion is not my thing. When there will be reasonable thread to respond I will respond. I spoke up my mind so far..

Ok
I just tried to help you here.:haha:

:salute:

[sailor_X]

That is the whole trick.:03:
When you look smart people may think you are smart or know what you are talking about.


What is this a smart and a smarter competition ? =] I couldn't care less what others might think about me. Cuz life has more serious problems in line waiting to be solved =]

[sailor_X]

Ok
I just tried to help you here.:haha:

:salute:

Thanks for the efforts, but why bother if none was asked ? =]

[sailor_X]

Really, does Poland or Finland, or one of the three baltic states think Russia is going to invade them anytime soon ? Or in the next 20 years ?
Russia is so big they really have other problems.


As you like proovs so much gimme at least one to think it's not going to happen ? How can you be so sure. What if war brakes out ? And Russia will come up with fake story, that all the countries that Russia might occupy joined Novororussia by their own free will ? As it was back then in gloomy USSR era ? We have a history of occupation remember ? Russia has lots of problems and the main one is PARANOIA of enemies as west countries, that are of course eternal enemies in all heads of KGB organs and psychological complexes about empire that felt in 1991.

I'm not sure what does that psycho Putin holds in his head, but for all those countries that u mentioned is better to be prepared than sorry.

[sailor_X]

Back on topic:
So when the West supports a government against Russia it is ok, but when Russia tries to do the same it is evil. Ah ok i forgot, WE are the good.


Correct cuz Russia IS on the side of evil. From the day Stalin came to power, Russia wears a bloody scar on it's face. Actually Stalin was the one who planted the seed of evil in russian minds. Even Putin once expressed his sympathy of fallen empire of USSR, to the regime which sentenced millions of lifes to death camps, before, during and after the war.

How can I trust Russia ? =] How can any nation that is being geographicaly close to Russia trust it ?

West supports those government that want's to become close to west. But hey Russia see a potentian threat in that. Again PARANOIA. Logical explanation: Russia doesn't look as attractive as the west. Western countries doesn't look for oportunity to go in war against Russia. It's Russia who never gives up in searching for the enemies. If putin forms a sick minded society in Russia which will show him all imaginable support, Putin might become even more greedy than he is now. There is a threat and kind of close to reality one.

[Oberon]

I believe Putin said:

"Anyone who does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart, anyone who wants it back has no brain."

[sailor_X]

I believe Putin said:

"Anyone who does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart, anyone who wants it back has no brain."

There will be no shortages of brainless ppl in Russia, that is for sure. There is also an old saying: "Mind is powerless in understanding Russia".

[kranz]

There will be no shortages of brainless ppl in Russia, that is for sure.
wrong tense, brother.:)

[sailor_X]

There NEVER were shortages of brainless ppl in Russia, that is for sure.

Corrected =]

[mapuc]

So much hate...towards people who have no part in the conflict.

Markus

[sailor_X]

So much hate...towards people who have no part in the conflict.

Markus

When did wars have started to be called conflicts ?

And from when people of waring countries stoped to choose sides in it ?

I assume if you want to live calm in Russia you have to support Putin, otherwise you may end up in jail if you try to demonstrate your position too loudly. Such is russian "democracy".

[mapuc]

When did wars have started to be called conflicts ?

And from when people of waring countries stoped to choose sides in it ?

I assume if you want to live calm in Russia you have to support Putin, otherwise you may end up in jail if you try to demonstrate your position too loudly. Such is russian "democracy".


OK I should perhaps have written war instead of conflict.

So a person takes a theoretical stand in a war-is that a reason to hate that person?

Markus

[sailor_X]

OK I should perhaps have written war instead of conflict.

So a person takes a theoretical stand in a war-is that a reason to hate that person?

Markus

Theory is usualy a prelude to practice. If his stance in theory will turn into practise, any time later and if I meet him in war as enemy it's deffinetly going to be a bloody fight between us.

For now: I don't hate him, but I sincerely think he's lost. He wishes to be right, it hurts him if he's wrong. But you can't blame a man because he was born in Russia right ? =] He's a student so far but as I see his brain is longwashed by Russian propaganda as well. And why Russia will welcome brainless ppl ? Because such ppl is much easier to control and manipulate them. And in Russia that has a 143 million citizens it is kind of important, when you try to prepare your society for war and loyalty =]

[CCIP]

Mighty words of wisdom coming from someone who goes into other people's countries with a glock and a machinegun.

[mapuc]

Theory is usualy a prelude to practice. If his stance in theory will turn into practise, any time later and if I meet him in war as enemy it's deffinetly going to be a bloody fight between us.

For now: I don't hate him, but I sincerely think he's lost. He wishes to be right, it hurts him if he's wrong. But you can't blame a man because he was born in Russia right ? =] He's a student so far but as I see his brain is longwashed by Russian propaganda as well. And why Russia will welcome brainless ppl ? Because such ppl is much easier to control and manipulate them. And in Russia that has a 143 million citizens it is kind of important, when you try to prepare your society for war and loyalty =]

Please don't call a person brainwashed. A person who is born and lived in a country who is under pressure will defend his or her country on forums like this.
If Sweden was in the same situation I would also defend it.

For your information I follow Skybirds advise and do NOT believe any side of the war/conflict.

[sailor_X]

Please don't call a person brainwashed. A person who is born and lived in a country who is under pressure will defend his or her country on forums like this.
If Sweden was in the same situation I would also defend it.


Who is under pressure, Ukraine or Russia ?

[sailor_X]

For your information I follow Skybirds advise and do NOT believe any side of the war/conflict.

So it's not your thread then. You should not go to church if you don't believe in God. Same is here.

I went to war to fight for Ukrainian ATO because I believe in what I believe. Those who believe that Russia is a victim in this war can join separatists. Only for separatists I have no mercy at all.

[sailor_X]

Mighty words of wisdom coming from someone who goes into other people's countries with a glock and a machinegun.

Sarcasm away, but green men entered Crimea and eastern Ukraine armed a lot better. So it's not for you to judge who is mighty against smaller one.

[mapuc]

So it's not your thread then. You should not go to church if you don't believe in God. Same is here.

I went to war to fight for Ukrainian ATO because I believe in what I believe. Those who believe that Russia is a victim in this war can join separatists. Only for separatists I have no mercy at all.

It's nobodys thread or it's everyones thread who want to give their oppunent about this. And nobody should call a person names or braindead-because of his or her standpoint.

Markus

[sailor_X]

It's nobodys thread or it's everyones thread who want to give their oppunent about this. And nobody should call a person names or braindead-because of his or her standpoint.

Markus

Is it realy sounds that odd from me ? It sounds impropriate just because u live too far away from Russia to believe in what I say. Hearing such things from him is not an accidental illness it's very close to results of lobotomical intervention of the nation itself thanks to propaganda.. and it's not just him. if you understand russian language you can read the youtube comments there under war with Ukraine videos. Lots of them with very same attitude to what is going on.

[u crank]

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p759/marcelanthonypineau/if-you-find-yourself-in-a-hole-the-first-thing-to-do-is-stop-digging-quote-1_zps348a7099.jpg (http://s1349.photobucket.com/user/marcelanthonypineau/media/if-you-find-yourself-in-a-hole-the-first-thing-to-do-is-stop-digging-quote-1_zps348a7099.jpg.html)

[Catfish]

Dear SailorX,
can you please present ANY EVIDENCE about your claims?
And can you please explain what this Mr. Svoboda means, for you or the Ukraine ?

[MH]

Theory is usualy a prelude to practice. If his stance in theory will turn into practise, any time later and if I meet him in war as enemy it's deffinetly going to be a bloody fight between us.

For now: I don't hate him, but I sincerely think he's lost. He wishes to be right, it hurts him if he's wrong. But you can't blame a man because he was born in Russia right ? =] He's a student so far but as I see his brain is longwashed by Russian propaganda as well. And why Russia will welcome brainless ppl ? Because such ppl is much easier to control and manipulate them. And in Russia that has a 143 million citizens it is kind of important, when you try to prepare your society for war and loyalty =]

I agree that Russians live in their own Universe.
While it can be said about citizens of every country with Russia it is sort of special thing.
It seems they believe Putin will lead Russia into its righteous greatness ... something the Russians always wanted through out history but never got quite there.
Actually it always ended up miserably for them.
Putin so far looks like the right guy for the task and he knows which notes to play.

When it comes to Ukraine a split is a solution , I don't believe it will end any other way.

[sailor_X]

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p759/marcelanthonypineau/if-you-find-yourself-in-a-hole-the-first-thing-to-do-is-stop-digging-quote-1_zps348a7099.jpg (http://s1349.photobucket.com/user/marcelanthonypineau/media/if-you-find-yourself-in-a-hole-the-first-thing-to-do-is-stop-digging-quote-1_zps348a7099.jpg.html)

I'm not sure how some jokes are related to the topic, but if I was happen to find myself in this kind of situation I would keep digging knowing the planet is one big round apple, I would know there has to be a way out using only a shovel =]

[ikalugin]

I wonder as to where the mods are.

[MH]

I wonder as to where the mods are.

Just take it easy ...

[ikalugin]

Just take it easy ...
Actually I am taking the -wait and see- approach. So far there has been nothing that I would need to comment, before moderators go through the thread (once more) and clarify their position on a number of posts here (which I wont quote or touch otherwise).

[sailor_X]

Actually I am taking the -wait and see- approach. So far there has been nothing that I would need to comment, before moderators go through the thread (once more) and clarify their position on a number of posts here (which I wont quote or touch otherwise).

Perhaps you just felt bored to stay quiet ? =]

[MH]

Perhaps you just felt bored to stay quiet ? =]

Ok.
You sort of match the stereotype of Russian propaganda .
Hope you are not working for KGB:haha:
You spammed this thread . Maybe Oberon was right.....

[sailor_X]

I agree that Russians live in their own Universe.
While it can be said about citizens of every country with Russia it is sort of special thing.
It seems they believe Putin will lead Russia into its righteous greatness ... something the Russians always wanted through out history but never got quite there.
Actually it always ended up miserably for them.
Putin so far looks like the right guy for the task and he knows which notes to play.

When it comes to Ukraine a split is a solution , I don't believe it will end any other way.

The main problem is that russian ppl don't know how to act with democracy that already was offered to society. What russian ppl need is a strong fist who would act as tough as master can be, only then russian can feel safe =] it's one of the moments when I said that "Mind is powerless to understand Russia". Majority of russians need to know that they have strong leader, that is against western policy ant culture if such is found he's going to be a hero for ages... can you believe in this ? =]

[sailor_X]

Ok.
You sort of match the stereotype of Russian propaganda .
Hope you are not working for KGB:haha:
You spammed this thread . Maybe Oberon was right.....

Wha.. ? :shifty:

[mapuc]

You may not understand what I write now

I support ikalugin, not for what he stand for, but for what he's being called in this thread.

I respect a persons oppinion in cases like this whatever side they are on.

Markus

[sailor_X]

You may not understand what I write now

I support ikalugin, not for what he stand for, but for what he's being called in this thread.

I respect a persons oppinion in cases like this whatever side they are on.

Markus

Light up my world, how is he being called here ? =]

[Oberon]

ITT:

http://www.paschendalefc.co.uk/Odds/passchendaele-1.jpg

[ikalugin]

Apparently Ukrainian Armed Forces face a shortage of their general issue winter clothing, anyone interested to find out more?

[Oberon]

http://webreaktech.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/12015391.jpg

I couldn't resist.... :haha:

[CCIP]

ITT:

http://www.paschendalefc.co.uk/Odds/passchendaele-1.jpg

Well since it's about the Ukraine, I guess it's technically more like

http://i.imgur.com/18VcWCE.jpg


which leads to the obligatory

http://i.imgur.com/y8Kc3TD.jpg

[ikalugin]

http://webreaktech.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/12015391.jpg

I couldn't resist.... :haha:

I was actually very close to using that wording :p, I would try to right up a major post here at some point in future.

[Oberon]

Well since it's about the Ukraine, I guess it's technically more like

which leads to the obligatory



http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/keep-calm-and-cheeki-breeki-15.png

[Oberon]

I was actually very close to using that wording :p, I would try to right up a major post here at some point in future.

I'd wait until the thread has calmed down a bit before putting anything too deep in it. :yep:

[ikalugin]

http://wyborcza.pl/1,75477,16975408,Byly_szef_sil_NATO_w_Europie__Ros ja_ma_trzy_warianty.html
According to this article 20 thousands of Russian troops would be capable of capturing most of the Southern/Eastern Ukraine.

So it would appear, that atleast that ex NATO commander does not take Ukrainian Loyalist troops seriously.

[August]

20 thousands of Russian troops would be capable of capturing most of the Southern/Eastern Ukraine.

What's that, a reinforced Russian division? I'd say that's not an unreasonable assumption.

[ikalugin]

What's that, a reinforced Russian division? I'd say that's not an unreasonable assumption.
Not taking the Counter Terrorism Operation Forces seriously, heh?

[August]

Not taking the Counter Terrorism Operation Forces seriously, heh?


I'm just thinking that a modern Russian armored or mechanized division well equipped and supported, operating in an area sympathetic to them could well take and hold eastern Ukraine against government forces.

[ikalugin]

I'm just thinking that a modern Russian armored or mechanized division well equipped and supported, operating in an area sympathetic to them could well take and hold eastern Ukraine against government forces.
The space we are talking about is vast though, probably comparable to a western European country.

That said both separatists and loyalists are increasing the strength of volunteer units by merging battalions into brigades and brigades into corps.

[August]

The space we are talking about is vast though, probably comparable to a western European country.

Exactly, far too much territory for the only 57k strong Ukrainian army to properly defend I'd think and the separatist follow on forces would likely eliminate any local opposition to the Russian occupation. What would be left to recapture?

[ikalugin]

Exactly, far too much territory for the only 57k strong Ukrainian army to properly defend I'd think and the separatist follow on forces would likely eliminate any local opposition to the Russian occupation. What would be left to recapture?
I would prefer to play it safe though, with classical encirclement using two operational groupings, plus the deep strike grouping (to secure the Deep river crossings) and various airborne and seaborne landings.

I could draw a map with big red arrows if anyone is interested.

[Oberon]

I'd be interested, compare it with the one I made a while back. Might even be in this thread somewhere... :hmmm:

[ikalugin]

Declaimer - this is not a real plan, discussion is hypo theoretical only. Ukraine is used as an example because it is thread relevant and because it is the ongoing conflict we may speculate about. As this is a preliminary and very crude work, improvements and details would come later.

In this post I do not comment on the political part of the operation, only the theoretical military aspects.

http://www.scribblemaps.com/maps/view/poorly_drawn_preliminary_offensive_plan/pXINphrYfh
well I drew this behind a cup of my breakfast tea. While this map is horribly crude, I could try to draw a better one later. Map key - blue areas are the areas held by Ukrainian Counter Terrorist Operation. Red circles - air assault and hasty defence areas, red squares - airborne assaults/airlift areas, red triangle - the sea borne assault. The general idea is:
- to provide a deep encirclement of Ukrainian CTO troops while threatening Kiev (if not outright securing it), securing the Russia friendly territory (south east of Ukraine).

Details:
Preparation of troops:
- deployement of the forces and means.
- Day-1 air offensive, tactical air and missile strikes against the C3I, air defence and missile troops elements, airfields, remote mine laying on selected axis.

1) Part one - encirclement and reduction of CTO troops. This is achieved by the rapid advancement of an operational combined arms grouping - 1st CAA, precluded by the airborne landings - 1st Airborne Regiment Tactical Group, the flank security against possible actions by the CTO troops is achieved by dropping air assault groupings, backing them up with the anti tank teams, deploying obstacles (such as anti tank mine fields), keeping a powerful armoured and mobile anti tank reserve.

Depth of this operation is approx 250km, which is within a single day of advance in the assumed conditions (lack of organised and credible defence, good roads, neutral or friendly air). Flank frontage is approx on the same scale, with half a dozen roads leading through it.

2) Part two - threatening Kiev. This part of the operation precludes any meaningful efforts to support the CTO grouping by the Ukrainian Loyalist forces. As such this is a secondary, deceptive effort and is conducted by the 2nd operational grouping - 2nd CAA.

This attack is precluded by the airborne assault against the Borispol airport. If successful - the overall grouping has the objective of holding Kiev, the airport and the Dnepr river crossings.

3) Part three - securing the Russia friendly areas. This is conducted by the 3rd operational grouping - 3rd CAA, operating out of Crimea. The objective is to reach the Dnepr line, secure crossings, link up with the sea borne assault force in Odessa/Nikolaev and the 1st CAA in the north. Due to the dispersion of effort on 3 operational axis, this grouping is separated into 4 task forces and a mobile reserve. The TF1 is tasked with linking up with Odessa and Nikolaev sea borne assault forces, TF2 is tasked with securing the crossings across Dnepr river in Herson (and acts as forward guard for TF1), TF3 is tasked with advancing towards Melitopol, TF4 is tasked with linking up with the 1st CAA and securing Zaporozhie Dnepr crossings.

1st CAA consists of:
-1 TnkDiv.
-2 MRBds.
-Airborne regiment task force.
-2 VDV Airborne regiments acting as light mech inf.
-Air Assault Brigade.
-2 Helicopter Brigades.
-SpecBd.
-various engineer, sapper, anti tank and support units.

2nd CAA consistes of:
- TnkBd.
- MRBd.
- Airborne regiment Task force.
- SpecBd.
-various engineer, sapper, anti tank and support units.

3rd CAA consists of:
- TF1
--Naval Infantry Brigade (split into 2 Battalion Tactical Groups).
--MRBd (again split into 2 BTCs).
--2 VDV Airborne regiments acting as light mech infantry.
--various engineer, sapper, anti tank and support units.
- TF2
--MRBd
-various engineer, sapper, anti tank and support units.
- TF3
--2 MRBd
--SpecBd
--various engineer, sapper, anti tank and support units.
- TF4
--TnkBd
--MRBd
--various engineer, sapper, anti tank and support units.

I could break this up further.

p.s. looks like my map is dead :(
p.p.s. I could expand/refine this if need be, as this is very -just poped into my mind- so most likely very flawed.

[Skybird]

Checking a map reveals that the Crimean peninsula roughly equals Switzerland in size, and the two regions around Luhansk and Donezk that are under separatist control (and are not under pressure by Ukrainian army currently, which had suffered several setbacks in recent weeks anyway), may equla roughly the size of the modern Czech Republik after the split from Slovakia.

I think in an environment where the population is friendly or at least neutral, a Russian force of 1-2 divisions could hold up the Ukrainian army. Even conquer it from them.

However, the bigger concern for Kiev is not a Russian invasion, but a Russian-supported militia or guerilla type of opponent which uses modern military weaponry and heavy platforms. Several weeks ago it were such forces that apparently have delivered the Ukrainians extremely serious losses, more or less wiping out or enforcing the surrender/self-dismantling of several Ukrainian brigade-sized units.

Moscow must not invade the the SouthEast of the Ukraine if Poroshenko launches an attack - it is sufficient to support the rebels and secure their supply with ammunition, weapons, intel, and modern weapons.

The current heavy Russian activity along the border seems to be related to an establishing of comprehensive and dense defensive fortification. At least that is what NATO now complains about. Putin wants to prepare against any Ukrainian manouvering across the border, or an Ukrainian distant future where parts of the country will have joined NATO. See more of this Russian action when NATO starts to send weapons to Kiev.

What we see in general imo is a cementation of the de facto splitting-up of the Ukraine. It is unimaginable that Luhansk, Donezk and the Crimean peninsula will return to the Ukraine after all what has happened. The facts have been created. Like them, or not - they will not change. Regarding the Crimean, I am okay with it. Regarding the other two regions, it depends on whether the rebvels really have the majority of the population behind them, or not. Their referndum claimed a 70% or 80% majority behind them - but there were no numbers mentioned that revealed how many of the people actually went to the voting, or did I miss these numbers? If the rebels indeed would have a solid majority of the regional population behind them, then Kiev has no moral or other claim to make there, and should give it up. >If<, that is.

Finally it has to be mentioned that the Russian forces seem to have learned a lot in the past ten years or so. Western militaries get quoted repeatedly with expressing their surprise at how "damn fast" they are moving, and how well coordinated they even move huge formations on theatre level. The modenrisation of forces and the big investemnt in better communication networks seems to pay off for Russia, also changes in the military doctrine. I cannot see the Ukrainains being a match for them even if Russian forces would fight in numerical inferiority. And due to its lack of financial assets it is unlikely that the Ukraine will adapt to this fast.

[XabbaRus]

Slightly off topic here, but I read that NATO were getting their knickers in a twist about the Serb-Russian anti terrorist exercise that lasted one day.

However when Russia got upset about a far larger NATO exercise in Poland they were basically told where to stick it. The whole thing is a hypocritical mess.

On a connected note what is the opinion of Brown-Moses of bellingcat citizen journalism fame? The now go to weapon expert darling of the media. Regardless that he has no engineering training or education in munitions etc. Just lots of youtube videos.

[ikalugin]

Skybird, most population of Ukraine is passive and thus rising up substantial local forces would be hard.

Hence my idea of delivering maximum political shock (Russian tanks and VDV in Kiev, most of South-East secured by Russian forces) on day 1, offering surrender to individual CTO forces groupings on day 2.

Then swinging the blocking groupings to the outer encirclement perimeter and moving the mobile forces to isolate the non surrendering CTO forces and reducing them.

[Oberon]

It's a good strategy. I envisioned a similar move, but based more around capturing the airfields in the east with airmobile groups and establishing a stop line from Kharkov down to the Dneiper. I didn't envision threatening Kiev, but that's a strategically sound move in order to draw forces away from the east of Ukraine.
I also didn't factor in Odessa, possibly because at that time it was still relatively calm there. I don't know if Odessa could be held via sea-link purely, so you'd have to establish an overland route which would be open to interdiction. Personally, if it was up to me I'd leave Odessa alone and focus on taking eastern Ukraine. :hmmm: Neutralise the naval forces around Odessa though, perhaps naval mines and the like, but no actual naval invasion.

[ikalugin]

It's a good strategy. I envisioned a similar move, but based more around capturing the airfields in the east with airmobile groups and establishing a stop line from Kharkov down to the Dneiper. I didn't envision threatening Kiev, but that's a strategically sound move in order to draw forces away from the east of Ukraine.
I also didn't factor in Odessa, possibly because at that time it was still relatively calm there. I don't know if Odessa could be held via sea-link purely, so you'd have to establish an overland route which would be open to interdiction. Personally, if it was up to me I'd leave Odessa alone and focus on taking eastern Ukraine. :hmmm: Neutralise the naval forces around Odessa though, perhaps naval mines and the like, but no actual naval invasion.
Large airdrops are sadly not possible, Russia currently has sufficient air lift capacity to air drop a regiment of VDV. Hence I go for 2 air drops (Battalion Tactical Groups) to capture the airfields (with Specnas infiltrator's support) and then airlift the remaining combat power of their parent regiments.

Airlifts/drops/assaults alone would not be capable of reliably defeating the CTO forces, as you would atleast need an armoured/mobile anti tank reserve to back such essentially static defences up. And if you plan to reduce the demoralised CTO forces later - you would need substantial mechanised presence on the ground. This is why I use air assault forces, supported by mobile blocking detachments and mobile reserves to conduct isolation, first within the inner ring of encirclement (to prevent the break out of CTO forces), then in the outer ring (to prevent their reinforcement), while strong mechanised grouping reduces CTO forces.

The Kiev part is not to draw CTO forces from Donbas region, but to demoralise CTO forces, destroy or capture Ukrainian leadership, draw any new units formed by the Ukrainian Loyalists to Kiev region and not South-East of Ukraine.

Capturing Odessa would make the logistical aid to the Ukraine by external parties that much harder, as then Ukraine would loose it's last port. It would also link up with Transnistria and secure Crimea for good.

[mapuc]

My hopes goes up and down

Now I have bad feelings about the situation right now.

Markus

[Oberon]

Large airdrops are sadly not possible, Russia currently has sufficient air lift capacity to air drop a regiment of VDV. Hence I go for 2 air drops (Battalion Tactical Groups) to capture the airfields (with Specnas infiltrator's support) and then airlift the remaining combat power of their parent regiments.

Airlifts/drops/assaults alone would not be capable of reliably defeating the CTO forces, as you would atleast need an armoured/mobile anti tank reserve to back such essentially static defences up. And if you plan to reduce the demoralised CTO forces later - you would need substantial mechanised presence on the ground. This is why I use air assault forces, supported by mobile blocking detachments and mobile reserves to conduct isolation, first within the inner ring of encirclement (to prevent the break out of CTO forces), then in the outer ring (to prevent their reinforcement), while strong mechanised grouping reduces CTO forces.

The Kiev part is not to draw CTO forces from Donbas region, but to demoralise CTO forces, destroy or capture Ukrainian leadership, draw any new units formed by the Ukrainian Loyalists to Kiev region and not South-East of Ukraine.

Capturing Odessa would make the logistical aid to the Ukraine by external parties that much harder, as then Ukraine would loose it's last port. It would also link up with Transnistria and secure Crimea for good.

I was thinking more mobile helicopter drops at specific airfields in the eastern Ukraine, Mi-24 style. Then the main armoured forces push through and meet up with the airfields which can be used for forward operating bases and supply locations. :hmmm:

Demoralising might go one of either way, you've already seen in this thread how rabidly anti-Russia some people in Eastern Europe are, if Russia outright invades the Ukraine then this is going to stir up great anti-Russian sentiment and might wind up increasing morale rather than decreasing it. Sort of how Russia responded during the Great Patriotic War.

I feel Odessa might be a bridge too far, looking at the overall strategic map, I have no doubt that Russia could take Odessa, but I think that it would stick out a bit too much and put a lot of pressure on Moldova which in turn would ripple through NATO and increase tensions more than it would if the Russian forces stopped at the Dneiper.

[Catfish]

Only that Russia has as much interest in "taking the Ukraine", as it will "invade" Lithuania, Estland or Poland :03:

Am i the only one who wants to vomit, when i see our media "report" about the Ukraine ?

[Oberon]

I think it depends really, I mean I honestly didn't think Russia would take Crimea, so I'm not going to turn around and say for definite that they're not going to take Eastern Ukraine either.

Not painting them as the Soviet bear, unlike others, but also not saying that it's impossible that they won't act to safeguard their interests in the region.

[August]

Skybird, most population of Ukraine is passive and thus rising up substantial local forces would be hard.

Hence my idea of delivering maximum political shock (Russian tanks and VDV in Kiev, most of South-East secured by Russian forces) on day 1, offering surrender to individual CTO forces groupings on day 2.

Then swinging the blocking groupings to the outer encirclement perimeter and moving the mobile forces to isolate the non surrendering CTO forces and reducing them.


That's when Ukraine pulls out those Soviet nukes they held back when the USSR fell and levels Moscow. :yep:

[Catfish]

In the meantime, our [insert insult here] chancellor Merkel has declared the cold war, in Brisbane. Not in the german people's name, but because she could, and was probably forced to.

Only in german, sorry, but i did not find ONE freakin article in the anglo-saxon media, criticising this.

http://www.geolitico.de/2014/11/17/merkels-motiv-fuer-den-kalten-krieg/

I like America, as an idea, but these imperial politics and behaviour suck big time. And can't our german government finally stop to lick their whatsover ?
:down: :/\\!! :nope:

[Skybird]

Interfax should have quoted Putin with a slight variation of something Al Capone once said. During the inspection of a tank factory or weapon factory, Putin should have said: "Politeness is nice, but politeness plus weapons get you further."

Who said that guy has no sense of humour? :haha:

During the beginning of the so-called little green men appearing on the Crimean peninsula, he once should have described them as "polite men". :haha:

Admitted, if you do not know that quote by Capone, you don't get the point in these jokes.

[August]

I think it depends really, I mean I honestly didn't think Russia would take Crimea, so I'm not going to turn around and say for definite that they're not going to take Eastern Ukraine either.

Well I think they will take eastern Ukraine and I believe the west will let them get away with it.

Their always formidable propaganda machine has managed to muddy up the waters sufficiently that a fair number of people in the west now believe them over their own governments, their own news media not to mention the last 160 years of almost non stop Russian expansionism.

[Skybird]

Wer von Politik vernünftige Entscheidungen erwartet, hat nicht begriffen, daß der Wille zur Macht stärker ist als alle Vernunft. - Roland Baader, deutscher Freiheitsdenker

He who expects reasonable decisions from politics, has not realised that the will to power is stronger than all reason. - Roland Baader, German thinker on liberty

That is true for Russia. But also true for America - and the European nations, too.

We must get rid of the global political caste - but it will give mankind a hell of a fight, openly and in the hidden, depending on what is needed. We still live by the political principles of the medieval and ancient times. We just have given them other names.

It is depressing how reliably man is repeating history and falls for empty catchphrases concealing that fact. Every whore knows that if she has her man by his balls he will do whatever she wants him to do, and every politician knows that if he bribes the crowd with paper-money and appeals to lower sentiments and pathetic emotions, the mass will follow and obey.

Infantility and servility are the two best labels to describe modern Western societies by. And some others beyond the West, too.

Will man succeed in a possible revolt against politics and politicians? Chancves are so low that I dare to rule it out. Once a dog - always a dog.

[August]

You speak of revolting against politics like it is a real person instead of the natural human function it is, one as old as the urge to live in groups. You get "rid of the global political caste" it will be replaced instantly, and by something far far more oppressive if human history is to be considered.

[Skybird]

The political systems there are, no matter whether republican, monarchic or totalitarian, are NOT natural and representative for human's social nature, but a perverseness of it. They are always oppressive, always exploitative, always parasitical, always anti-social, always elitist. And in the end: always feudal. Even in socialism there always seem to be a feudal elite.

The opposite of governments and parties - is freedom, local self-organsiation, and self-responsibility.

This even more true when considering that all politics nowadays, no matter their name, and all state structures - are deeply socialist. National governments are manifestations of organised crime.

Parties are not for liberty or freedom, but to prevent them. Else they would and could not exist. Politicians are not for freedom or liberty, if people were free, politicians would not be needed. Free people must be prevented, since parties and politicians live by the people like a mosquito lives by the blood of the victims it stings.

Politics is antisocial, and parasitical. Because the strongest drive in politics and politicians is the uncompromised and ultimate will for power. And the voting cattle on the streets - can choose whether to enter the same slaughterhouse through the left, middle or right gate, once inside they can chose their slaughterer depending on whose knife's shine they like best. Choosing is great!

Still most people do not want it any different. Okay. Everything runs in always repeating cycles it seems, and neither historical experience nor reason seems to be able to break that pattern up. So be it. Intentions and illusions will not save people once the consequences of these knock at their doors. And I am cold-blooded enough by now not to feel any pity for them then.

Von Mises once wrote, near the end of his life, that once, when he began, he hoped to make a difference, to help starting a change - but that he had to realise over his life that instead he had become a historian just recording the events and phases of the general decline and fall. All his predictions meanwhile have come true, but still Kassandra is hated as much as before. In no way I will compare myself with the genius of this man, but I understand exactly how he felt when he said that. By the end of his life he even admitted that his life-long defence of democracy - was a mistake, that he had hopelessly overestimated it.

Compared to him, most contemporary social philosophers and "economists" are buffoons with inflationary egos who are as incapable as they are clueless.

[August]

The opposite of governments and parties - is freedom, local self-organsiation, and self-responsibility.

No the opposite of governments and parties is anarchy, ruthless, violent and pervasive. You would destroy a flawed but working political system for the rule of the barbarian horde.

Humans naturally organize into groups. Your local self rule communities idea is just one of many flavors of that but it's appeal to you ignores the fact that groups are not stable. They will splinter and merge and quickly become widely disparate in size and power. Even if somehow your utopia were to come to be created it would never last, certainly not as long as the democracies you are so eager to tear down have lasted. It would soon fall prey to the first horde of barbarians who realize they can take what you have by force and you can't stop them.

But we digress from the thread topic...

[ikalugin]

Ukraine does not retain any nuclear stocks.

@oberon.

Then we have similar idea, I suggest using both air assaults (to create containment line) and air drops (to seize the Dnepr crossings) with mechanized link up.

As to the morale, Oberon, the issue here is that Ukrainian media tells the Ukrainian population that Ukraine is at war with Russian invaders. Morever - that Russia suffers heavy losses and is loosing the war sort of. Hence if Russia actually does invade in mass this would lead to shock, not to rise of patriotism.

To the political side of things - even though I am somewhat reluctant to discuss this (as the topic is controversial) - in my opinion the full scale invasion would already mean that there is no possibility for a diplomatic compromise. Which is the sentiment by the way at this moment in Moscow, or so it appears.

[Oberon]

Indeed, Ukraine handed the nukes back over to Russia in 1991 with the Budapest memorandum...which seems to have been torn up and thrown in the dustbin. I suppose it's possible they might have hidden one or two away for a rainy day (although one would hope that Russia knew how many nukes went into Ukraine and how many came out) but I think they'd probably use them locally rather than strike direct at Russia, otherwise the only habitable place left in the Ukraine would be Pripyat.

ikalugin your plan makes sense, the Dneiper would make a good stop line and a natural barrier against Ukrainian attacks, seizing the crossings and denying their use makes logical sense. Speed is the essence, and one thing we have learnt over the past decade is that the Russian army can move damn fast when it wants to, damn fast. :yep: With that kind of mobility I do ponder if NATO forces would have been able to have retreated fast enough to set up secondary defence lines...but that's a rumination for another day.

I think the average Ukrainian would be smart enough to know that the force correlation between the Ukrainian army and the Russian army is way out of kilter in favour of Moscow, so any attempts by Ukrainian media to pull a 'Comical Ali' would be met with scorn rather than belief I'd wager.
I think that Russian forces will meet a colder reception the further west from the border they go. Initial contacts will probably welcome them with open arms, but by the time you get to Kharkov, there's probably going to be a need to put in martial law. Likewise threat of force to Kiev might or might not be enough to produce surrender. The government of Ukraine, such as it is, might relocate westwards to Lvov and try to run things from there. We've seen in many wars in history that taking or threatening the capital of a nation is not always a key to victory. Napoleon comes to mind. However, it would make tactical sense to try to draw Ukrainian forces into a defence against a fake attack aimed at Kiev, thus making the progress of the 1st CAA easier.
You think that Moscow believes that there is no room for a diplomatic compromise? That's unsettling news indeed, I think it's likely we've gone too far down the route of hardline politics that force is perhaps the only option left to the parties involved.

The question is, what would Russia do if what was left of Ukraine (western Ukraine) applied successfully to NATO? Thinking about it...since such a thing would be an almost guaranteed result of Russia invading eastern Ukraine, then that corridor to Transdneister makes a lot more sense in retrospect, otherwise it would be cut off by NATO forces.

I'm going to close on another question...where do you think Belarus is heading? It's, in my opinion anyway, the next domino that might fall, and relations between Minsk and Moscow, whilst not as bad as those between Kiev and Moscow, have hardly been brilliant in recent years. Do you think that Belarus would be sufficiently cowed by intervention in eastern Ukraine to move back towards Moscow, or is there a chance that the events that have taken place in Ukraine could repeat themselves in Belarus? It is a rather authoritarian state after all, an uprising there is entirely possible.

[ikalugin]

As far as I am aware average people do believe the image they get from Ukrainian media - it I'd the "big lie" concept and it works... as far as Russia does not make it true and come in force.

This is why at the same time I propose special forces attacks and air drops. A historical parallel would he the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan.

Yes, I assume that Ukraine would be partitioned in that case, possibly by pre 1939 borders.

The issue with diplomatic part of things is that (at least from Russian perspective):
- Ukrainian loyalists did not abide by Minsk agreements and at this moment de facto sent those down into the bin (economical blockade law, artillery fires, deployment of long range artillery ect).
- there are no clear cut conditions for removal of sanctions, nor are there any clear cut mechanisms for the same.
- should Donbas conflict be regulated to the Western liking, we would then be pushed on Crimean matter and then on pure internal politics, is there is no middle ground, we are De facto provided with ultimatum - for complete surrender.

[Skybird]

No the opposite of governments and parties is anarchy, ruthless, violent and pervasive. You would destroy a flawed but working political system for the rule of the barbarian horde.
All what the state claims to own and be legitimated to possess and to rule over, comes from stealing , blakcmailing and robbery - all and everything. All common good is loot the state has plundered and robbed from legitimate owners whose private property it has been before. Therefore all argument claiming the state acts on behalf of a common interest or a common good, is argument of a bandit dfdending his heap of loot and his claim to abuse those he has turned into subordinates to himself by blackmailing and violence. In the end paper money also only has been implkemented to allow the elite at the top to celebrate its parties and to bribe the ordinary people with cocaisonal "presents" that the poeople nevertheless diretcly or indirectly have to pay for themselves, by devaluation of money and distorted price indices. Politics therfore never can run and function without inflation (Latin: inflare: to expand, to increase) of the amount of circulating currency units (printing notes), and inflation always causes a distortion of the price indices as well as a general increase of prices (hidden or openly). That modern economists mistake inflation for increasing prices and thus attribute the causal reaosns for the one to the other, shows how disastrously deep Keynesian madness is rooting in modern economics -and state theory.

But do not be mistaken: all this is rules and mechnaism by whoich organsied crime tries to give itself a legitimate appearance and tries to stay afloat for some longer time.

The opposite to this, is not chaos or anarchy, but the rejection of politics and politicians, the rejection of robbers, plunderers and blackmailers. The claim that you make, that not obeying our masters' word anymore who abuse us all to make their living, is often made by people who do not want people to be free and independent, since that would mean that the basis for celebrating the symbols and the pomp of the national and political mass would crumble, like their would no more pomptous mass to be seen in chru7ches if peopel would not believe catholic dogma anymore. The power of the few - needs the blindness (not to see through) and weakness (not to be able to defend themselves against or to escape from the stae'S exploitation) of the many. And all instittuioons, from poublic education to social securityx system, serve this purpose. Not to mention that all and every instance of society are state-controlled, state-regulated, and overlooked by the state. A state that, as I said, is a criminal and egoist and ruthless exploiter and abuser. It even kills its people (when declaring wars that people would not have declared, or enforcing the draft).

The state is a totally immoral construction. And thus cannot be argued to be the source of moral standards.

The absence of this, simply means the absence of this. Originally, the word anarchy meant nothing else but this.

Compare Chapter 24 The Moral Status in Relations to the State, in Rothbard: The Ethics of Liberty. and I would say that all too often states are a tool of big disorder being imposed on a natural order of things - a natural order that from poltiicans' POV has the big disadvantage that it needs no politicians and does not provide a basis for them to run their impostures.

You are right, though, in that man as a zoon politicon tends to forum communities. That in itselkf is nothing wrong. Dangerous it becomes if these communities allow elites to form up to command them, even worse when thes eelites are allowed heritable priviliges and powers, and elites preserving their powers due to tradition and habit (like the big political family dynasties in your country, for example, which are nothing else but a revival of monarchic traditions). Career politicians live by the belief of having the right to be privileged and being paid for all their life by the people onto whom they impose themselves with the described ruthless and criminal tactics.

Bow your knee to all this Mafia show, if you feel like wanting to donate your life and mind for nothing more than this. But in my life I stand up against it, and remain a little bit less guilty that way, even if I cannot change the world, for the highest authorities I report to are no kings and no politicians and no imagined deities, but my conscience and reason. When I judge your claim by the state of things in the world, the decline of Western civilization and its ever accelerating fall, and the amount of chaos and instability your ways have brought into the world, I hardly can find your claim convincing.

[Bilge_Rat]

As far as I am aware average people do believe the image they get from Ukrainian media - it I'd the "big lie" concept and it works... as far as Russia does not make it true and come in force.

true, there is propaganda on both sides, but the "Big Lie" these days is all coming from the Russian side. The Ukrainian version of events has turned out to be on the whole accurate.

There is so much evidence of Russian involvement now that it is hard to keep track of it all. For example, video of Russian tanks moving into Donetsk on november 10th:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arLT7AhaHGY

If you look carefully, you will see the tanks have markings on the side (H-22-00) which are used by the Russian railway system:


http://cs623426.vk.me/v623426097/97ad/ZNOMbgFTtkI.jpg





The issue with diplomatic part of things is that (at least from Russian perspective):
- Ukrainian loyalists did not abide by Minsk agreements and at this moment de facto sent those down into the bin (economical blockade law, artillery fires, deployment of long range artillery ect).

Actually, most of the violations are coming from the Russians which are sending more troops into Ukraine and have been pushing/attacking out, especially around the Donetsk airport.


- there are no clear cut conditions for removal of sanctions, nor are there any clear cut mechanisms for the same.

Sanctions will not be looked at until the Russians show they are serious about resolving the situation. If anything, it looks like the economic pressure will get worse. For example, there are reports that the Saudis, at the behest of the U.S., are flooding the market with Oil to drive the price down and put more pressure on the Russian economy.


- should Donbas conflict be regulated to the Western liking, we would then be pushed on Crimean matter and then on pure internal politics, is there is no middle ground, we are De facto provided with ultimatum - for complete surrender.

Is that really the Russian viewpoint? seems very paranoid.

[ikalugin]

true, there is propaganda on both sides, but the "Big Lie" these days is all coming from the Russian side. The Ukrainian version of events has turned out to be on the whole accurate.

There is so much evidence of Russian involvement now that it is hard to keep track of it all. For example, video of Russian tanks moving into Donetsk on november 10th:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arLT7AhaHGY

If you look carefully, you will see the tanks have markings on the side (H-22-00) which are used by the Russian railway system:


http://cs623426.vk.me/v623426097/97ad/ZNOMbgFTtkI.jpg





Actually, most of the violations are coming from the Russians which are sending more troops into Ukraine and have been pushing/attacking out, especially around the Donetsk airport.



Sanctions will not be looked at until the Russians show they are serious about resolving the situation. If anything, it looks like the economic pressure will get worse. For example, there are reports that the Saudis, at the behest of the U.S., are flooding the market with Oil to drive the price down and put more pressure on the Russian economy.




Is that really the Russian viewpoint? seems very paranoid.
I do not deny that Russia supplies volunteers and equipment to Ukranian separatists. However do you have any direct evidence about regular Russian Armed Forces participating in that conflict on substantial scale, as you appear to claim?

So Ukranian loyalists do not bombard Donetsk (and other areas, Donetsk currently has water problems which make heating difficult), they did not commence offensive operations or pass the economical blockade legislation, they did not take out long range artillery from the storage? Ok. What Russia is doing at the moment is maintaining status quo in the region, no more no less.

As I said - there are no clear conditions and thus Russia is not capable of fulfilling them. Hence there is no possibility of ending the sanctions, regardless of Russian action or inaction.

This is not paranoia - this is what current Western (particularly US) rhetoric is about. Do you want me to provide example of such rhetoric?

[Dowly]

The H2200 is a oversize marking.

Maybe ikalugin can check the russian wiki and translate the relevant bits?
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%82_%D0%BF% D0%BE%D0%B3%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B7%D0%BA%D0%B8

[ikalugin]

Sure:
- first symbol (N in this case) is that the cargo is oversized.
- second (in this case 2) - that the lower part of the cargo is within the second degree of being over sized (they are numbered from 1-6).
- third is the same but for the the object being oversized width wise.

Other dimensions are not oversized (zeroes).

This applies only to flat top carriages though. Increased level of supervision is required when oversized cargoe is transported. Not sure how this was useful - but I hope it helps.

[MH]

Sure:
- first symbol (N in this case) is that the cargo is oversized.
- second (in this case 2) - that the lower part of the cargo is within the second degree of being over sized (they are numbered from 1-6).
- third is the same but for the the object being oversized width wise.

Other dimensions are not oversized (zeroes).

This applies only to flat top carriages though.

It would be interesting to know who operates this equipment.
Although I suppose a some of separatists did the mandatory service in their time , probably very few are can operate those things and even less few are minimally competent at the task.
I don't suppose Russians unload the equipment and leave.
This would require some volunteers on leave from Russian army.

[ikalugin]

It would be interesting to know who operates this equipment.
Although I suppose a some of separatists did the mandatory service in their time , probably very few are can operate those things and even less few are minimally competent at the task.
I don't suppose Russians unload the equipment and leave.
This would require some volunteers on leave from Russian army.
Considering that Russian Army at the moment uses conscription - I think there is enough of people with relevant military profession available (in fact there would be thousands of conscripts every year who just finished their service in tank unit or sub unit), especially considering that Separatists are fairly open about them looking for volunteers (in fact I think they have a fairly decent infrastructure for that in Rostov I think).

That said I think that even though there are no regular troops in Donbas, it is quite possible that they may have regular army instructors (and more so volunteers with relevant skills), which provide required training (and it doesn't take long to learn how to operate a Soviet pattern tank).

What is more interesting is how neither side was capable of mobilising significant amount of population behind it's cause - though Separatists do have it easier due to their territory being bombarded and promoting their cause with refugees in Russia.

[Alex]

I think it depends really, I mean I honestly didn't think Russia would take Crimea, so I'm not going to turn around and say for definite that they're not going to take Eastern Ukraine either.
Well I think they will take eastern Ukraine and I believe the west will let them get away with it.

Their always formidable propaganda machine has managed to muddy up the waters sufficiently that a fair number of people in the west now believe them over their own governments, their own news media not to mention the last 160 years of almost non stop Russian expansionism.
Where do you find 'em, August ? :D
I just had to stumble upon that one, I tell you, my good fellow !
Thanks for the laugh, Sir. :O:

By the way : that list is for you personally, Sir, so that you'll have the opportunity to sit around the hearth reading (if you ever happen to buy some books related to the subject) and so learning a little bit more about your own history, during the long autumn and winter evenings to come... http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/685425snow.gif


US ingerence/interventionism through military attack, sabotage and agitation since the end of the second world war.


China : 1945-1946



Syria : 1949



Korea : 1950 - 1953



China : 1950-1953



Iran : 1953



Guatemala : 1954



Tibet : 1955-1970



Indonesia : 1958



Cuba : 1959



Democratic republic of Congo : 1960-1965



Iraq : 1960-1963



Dominican republic : 1961



Vietnam : 1961-1973



Brazil : 1964



Belgian Congo : 1964



Guatemala : 1964



Laos : 1964-1973



Dominican republic : 1965-1966



Peru : 1965



Greece : 1965



Guatemala : 1967-1969



Cambodia : 1969-1970



Chile : 1970-1973



Argentina : 1976



Turkey : 1980



Poland : 1980-1981



El Salvador : 1981-1992



Nicaragua : 1981-1990



Cambodia : 1980-1995



Angola : 1980



Lebanon : 1982-1984



Granada : 1983-1984



Philippines : 1986



Libya : 1986



Iran : 1987-1988



Libya : 1989



Panama : 1989-1990



Iraq : 1991



Koweit : 1991



Somalia : 1992-1994



Iraq : 1992-1996



Bosnia : 1995



Iran : 1998



Sudan : 1998



Afghanistan : 1998



Yugoslavia-Serbia : 1999



Afghanistan : 2001



Iraq : 2002-2003



Somalia : 2006-2007



Iran : 2005



Libya : 2011

[ikalugin]

During the beginning of the so-called little green men appearing on the Crimean peninsula, he once should have described them as "polite men".
I even know where term "polite men" originated from.

@oberon - missed your question about Belarus.
Basically Lukashenko is on the Russian train, as it is where he sells his wares, where he gets energy from and so on. Unless something goes really wrong he would still be there, and I don't think that Maidan route is possible there.

P.s. what Lukashenko truly ever wanted was to be a Russian rather than Belarussian president I think, but then Putin came about and he isn't going anywhere.

[MH]

Their always formidable propaganda machine has managed to muddy up the waters sufficiently that a fair number of people in the west now believe them over their own governments, their own news media not to mention the last 160 years of almost non stop Russian expansionism.

You don't get it August...
At the end of the day people believe what they want to believe.
Most don't really care.
Russia provides enough reasonable doubt for the people to not feel compelled to the conflict or take sides for real...
That is the beauty of this all.
At the end of the day nobody wants a war over some forsaken place at the edge of the Europe so all you need is feed this stance with whatever you can.

Considering that Russian Army at the moment uses conscription - I think there is enough of people with relevant military profession available (in fact there would be thousands of conscripts every year who just finished their service in tank unit or sub unit), especially considering that Separatists are fairly open about them looking for volunteers (in fact I think they have a fairly decent infrastructure for that in Rostov I think).


You probably could call them reservists also .

@alex.
yes

[ikalugin]

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/11/18/top_5_foreign_policy_lessons_of_the_past_20_years% 20

[Bilge_Rat]

It would be interesting to know who operates this equipment.
Although I suppose a some of separatists did the mandatory service in their time , probably very few are can operate those things and even less few are minimally competent at the task.
I don't suppose Russians unload the equipment and leave.
This would require some volunteers on leave from Russian army.

well, the Russian argument has been that any equipment used by the Rebels was either captured from the Ukrainians (although that argument has been wearing thin) or ,yes, it may be Russian equipment, but it is operated by the Rebels.

However, you don't just pick up a tank and start operating it. The crew has to be trained not only in the equipment itself, but how to act as a team (as well as not killing friendly forces through a bonehead move).

Here are other examples of vehicles used by the "Rebels":

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B2Pulp8CUAE8RhH.jpg:large

"Rebel" SNAR-10 and AKR-1 spotted on nov. 12th near Torez city. These are older models, but still sophisticated counter-battery equipment. You need specialized training to use these effectively. Speculation is that these are crewed by Russian specialists.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B16DI5TIIAAZBsg.jpg:large

Krasukha-4. This is top of the line ECM/jamming equipment which the Russians have only had since 2013. How did the Rebels get a hold of one of these?

[antikristuseke]

They found it, obviously:yep: