Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine [Archive] - Page 4

Skybird

03-20-14, 06:32 PM

I know where you're coming from with your concern Skybird, but I think that if America does decide to take itself out of the European picture (and honestly, who can blame it with the abuse that has been hurled its way by Europeans over the past fifty years?) and Russia and China decide to seek closer ties (and again, who can blame them? Russia was snubbed by Europe and America so it turns to the only other partner it has, the PRC) then the only way that we can present a credible deterrant to any thoughts of Russian expansion in Europe either militarily or politically is through a united front, and the only united front in Europe is the EU.

When freedom gets destroyed and we end in an increasingly totalitarian regime, then it matters little who did that to us, Brussels and lobbyists, or a foreign conquerer. Also, you ignore the ammount by which every state untoilt oday plays fould and villates already existing treaties that would bring European states more into line over certain areas of common interest, most states conspirate and erode to bypass rules and treaties that hinders their self-percpetion to blossom. France, Britain, Germany, Greece, Italy and the others - they all have special interests and demands and think it is okay that they cheat the others, use their positive assets to blackmail the others to allow a breaking of rules, and so on. I sometimes do not know whether I should like that, or not.

Naturally this will be abused, just as the original ideals behind the EEC were abused, just as the post-wall agreements with Russia were abused, but equally alone and scattered we cannot present a credible political power, the days of the Empires are long gone, we individually do not have the industry or economy to be a rival to the likes of China, Russia or the US.
And this is what we maybe need to accept. Some years ago, when the financial crisis broke out openly, the Indian prime minister or a minster of the Indian Cabinet of that time, I forgot who it was, answerd a question by a Western diplomat what the West should do, with this disarming frankness and directness (and he did not mean it unfriendly or triumphantly at all): he said "You in the West now will need to learn to be poor." Some of the elder statesmen that still live today, also occassionaly hinted at that the time when the West could tell the rest of the world what to do, and to live by its rules, are over. I really think we should say farewell to this concept of thinking of ourselves that we must be the saviors of the planet and that others get blinded by our shiny ideals. Nobody gets blinded by our ideals anymore, and often we make the experience that our ideals and values get rightout refused and thrown after us. India does not listen any longer. China does not. Russia - surprise - does not. The Middle East does not. South America increasingly found its own voice. And africa is a playground of the heavyweights in international politics, and ripped by many tribal wars , and wars about controlling resources.

Militarily, we cannot defend against that loss of weight we suffer from in the world. Also, demographically, native Europeans are in decline, compared to the global population.

A military union controlled by the EU just will bring Burssel into more control that people have no counter control over, if not by rules and treaties, than Brussel will grab that influence through the backdoor, by having heads of governments conspirating (?) with its interests. The show gets run like that all the time anyway. It is a politila elite accumulating more and more power and control, and claiming more and more submission by the people, while not allowing checks and balances. Just look at this damn free trade treaty the now dow between the eU and the US. The US heavily benefits from it, while European consumers have heavy risks and losses from it, it all is done in total secrecy, gets negotiated behind locked doors, and governments in Europe try to hide all continent of the treaty from their own parliaments - which nevertheless should weave it though without being told about the content, and reflecting about the dangerous implications. This agreement is not about "free trade", but the opposite of it, it widens the rights of monopolists, allows monopolists and corporations to sue governments threatening to limit their profits by laws for better environment protection or health protection, and aims at destroying the free market and free trading that it claims to guarantee, also it wants to impose inferior US consumer protection standards on all Europeans and wants to enforce market accesses for critical products that in the past has been refused to be given permission to be sold on European markets, over health and safety concerns, and others.

And an criminal political elite like this, that sells its own people and for the people'S disadvantage, and that wants to save its own privileges in the face of troubleful times ahead, this amok running elite you want to give more powers and tools of influence and control?

No, I do not accept that, and instead argue for a lowering of our claims and standards regarding the role we want to play in the world. We must not and cannot play a domiant role anymore, our powerbasis is too eroded for that, and I do not want that to be abused as an excuse to help dictatorship being erected. It will come by itself anyway, all socialism leads to tyranny, necessarily - but at least I can refuse to actively help it and speed it up. We have had this kind of thinking, strong state and united power in few hands. It did not work too well last time (Warsaw Pact), and not the time before (Third Reich).

that leaves me outside any options that could materialise, and I know that. Libertarianism is dead. Freedom is dead. (And I would argue that in Germany it never has had the chance to form a tradition anyway, like it had in England). It has the right thinking, and provides the correct diagnosis for the present diseases. But in this corrupted, FUBARed world, it is up against overwhelming odds. That's why I never am optimistic about the future. The future I forsee, is not bright. Not for Europe, and not for the world.

I think that there will be a day soon where Europe will come to a fork in the road, probably around the time that the US economy receives another nasty hiccup and we are not prepared for it. The choice will be thus, split up and return to the Europe of old, warring, bickering, easy prey for the superpowers around us, or consolidate into a superstate in order to keep Europe relevant on the world stage, and this choice will set up the new century of global politics.
There are no superpowers around us, just stronger powers. Superpowers implies a level of dominance that there can be no second superpower, even dzuring the cold war, there were no "two superpowers". For some time America believed it raised to the level of a superpower after it considered russia "defeated", but that was just a short moment of calm before the storm. Its limits of power were demonstrated just short time later - and repeatedly.

"Europe" to me always necessarily implies the plural. And the bickering states, the chodlish Kinergarden of states, always has been there, and is now, just almost covered by a thin layer of blue paint. In side the EU, the rules get constantly broken by players. Also, there is strong emotional power in the regions and local places around Europe, more and more people have enough of this corrupted EU, and claim greater independence form Brussel, or even their own central states. People do not want to get ruled by an imperial central govenrment, at best they support it for the most only becasue they hpe for moeny raining fromn heaven if they do. Big scepticism is spreading, and it is not only deserved, but fully justified.

So, we would be qwell advised to tone down our lectures tot eh rest of the world, we shgoulkd secure the ablity to make any miliztary attack on our countries an extremnely costly operastion for the aggressor, and beyond that - like America seems to do - not exlpand any firther, but deflate, and olretty much so, sticking to our lands, reducing the insane levels of moeny wasting in our social wellfare systems, get a different soical and cultural climate established where we again foucs more on own repsonsibility and responsibility for our family, instead of leaving both to the state, and we need to find answers for the dramatic demographic chnage in our over-aging societies. Quantity cannot be our way anymore, but quality. Many of our problems are not just strucural problems, but problems of a devastated culture, a lack of humanistic education that can differ populistic nonsense from matters that really count. That we have so many elite benefitting from leaving out problems unadressed, and even deepening them, does not really help, of course.

Ah, so much would be needed to chnage. And so little we will dare to do. there is no solution, and i think no happy end to all this. We will be like many civilizations before us: glorious rise, fantastic climax, silent fall. It seems man is not made for creating something that really lasts.

Ironically, religions understand what I mean better than most others. Of course relgous institutions only are after their own power interests, but I mean people that feel like being religious, while keeping away from the religious mainstream and the institutions and dogmas. It is funny that there once were a Franciscan monk here in my hometown, and even in Teheran a cleric, both knew that I were atheist and (at that time) called myself a Buddhist - and nevertheless we found that both of these and I were much closer to reach other in thinking, than I am to many others, atheists, and the mainstream opinion holders anyway.

TarJak

03-20-14, 10:20 PM

But there was no need to make a song and dance about it.

Life is a cabaret old chum. :smug:

Me? I prefer cabernet.

TarJak

03-21-14, 05:12 AM

This bloke raises some interesting points, though his last sentence should have been better edited. http://www.smh.com.au/comment/ukraine-the-latest-pawn-in-an-imperial-game-20140320-355ow.html

Oberon

03-22-14, 10:00 AM

Belbak airfield being assaulted by Russian/pro-Russian forces, BTR-80 has knocked down the front gate and an ambulance has arrived. A UAZ has also just appeared. It seems that someone attempted to smash the camera from the ground a few moments before the BTR-80 went for the gate but failed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoLi25S-Kv8#t=1844143

EDIT: Camera now torn down by Russian/pro-Russian forces.

http://thyblackman.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/the-revolution-will-not-be-televised.jpg

One person injured during the assault and shots were fired.

Oberon

03-22-14, 12:16 PM

The Russian Navy has taken control of Ukraines only submarine, a Foxtrot class.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BjWDNp9CEAAVsqK.jpg

Mr Quatro

03-22-14, 12:36 PM

MONEY makes the world go around.

Money just makes me go down the block to nearest ATM machine :woot:

Dread Knot

03-22-14, 12:40 PM

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/47308846.jpg

Aktungbby

03-22-14, 01:00 PM

Can Vladimir the Good be contained? the next bone of contention: http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748703662804576188522910176218 (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748703662804576188522910176218) Behold! The unrecognized Republic of Transnistria! Vlad the Good; enroute to Tansnistria?http://media.theweek.com/img/dir_0090/45424_article_full/just-riding-this-horse-topless-nbd.jpg?200or Tonto with a few masked men!?? If it's legitimate, why the masks and no military insignia?http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/03/03/article-2571799-1BF9C20D00000578-877_964x667.jpg

Jimbuna

03-22-14, 02:38 PM

mapuc

03-22-14, 03:34 PM

Catfish

03-22-14, 03:45 PM

Maybe the Ukrainians are afraid they are the next. In the east, there are already some gents preparing an election to vote for giving the Ukraine to Russia, too.
:hmmm:

Jimbuna

03-22-14, 04:44 PM

Oberon

03-22-14, 05:16 PM

The interim government of Ukraine sends regarding Crimea double messages. publicly, they say that they will fight to keep the Crimea. While, unofficially planning an operation to pull all their forces and their families out of there.

I can't get anything but this:

Ukraine has abandoned the Crimea and does not intend to fight to regain the area.

Markus

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Friedrich_Zweite_Alt.jpg

"He who defends everything, defends nothing."

They're pulling back and consolidating, anything they keep in Crimea will probably be confiscated by the Russians anyway, so they need to try and keep whatever they can, case in point the Ukrainian navy which pretty much belongs to Russia now.

Whether the Ukraine will fight to keep Crimea remains to be seen, but my money is on no, they will be too busy trying to keep East Ukraine from peeling off and running to Russia, as well as trying to keep their economy from completely imploding, and trying to get into EU and NATO.

TarJak

03-22-14, 05:19 PM

The problem being, any action by them will give Putin the excuse he wants to invade the Ukraine.

Given he's already effectively done that, your point is rather moot.

Onkel Neal

03-22-14, 10:14 PM

So, I guess this crisis is all over now and we can get back to normal life? Putin got Crimea, did anyone think he would be stopped by world approval? :-?

Admiral Halsey

03-22-14, 10:28 PM

So, I guess this crisis is all over now and we can get back to normal life? Putin got Crimea, did anyone think he would be stopped by world approval? :-?

It's not necessarily over yet. You read/see/hear the news about the shots fired on the Ukraine military base? The real question is, does anyone think Putin is going to be satisfied with the Crimea alone when Eastern Ukraine also has a large ethnic Russian population"

Oberon

03-22-14, 11:07 PM

So, I guess this crisis is all over now and we can get back to normal life? Putin got Crimea, did anyone think he would be stopped by world approval? :-?

Oh, I think this is just the beginning, for us in Europe at least.

Skybird

03-23-14, 05:41 AM

Lets see how those financial (different from general economical=boycott) sanctions work. It seems to cause the Russians huge losses already. Currently, huge streams of capital flee the country.

Moldavia/Transnistria and Eastern Ukraine remain to be issues with uncertain outcome. They may blow up right now. Or in the future, like several states in the ME did due to stupid borderline drawns.

In the end, it was not clever to design the Ukraine as a state in those borders it now claims. It will always be the cause of conflict, due to the internal rifts.

It should be split. The West then shou.l,d boyoctt thge Western Ukraine for as long as criminal pllticians, the fascists and oliogarchs are claiming seats in the power hierarchy. When there have been free elections, then start to economically support them if all the gangsters and Nazis have gone - not before. I do not want my taxes being wasted into a corrupted snake pit of oligarchs and fascists. If it goes like this and in an ideal way, you would then have a situation like in Germany after the war, with Russia and The West competing to prove they can outperform the other side, turning the two halves of the country into showrooms of their policy. The benefiting party would be - the Ukrainians themselves.

Will not voluntarily happen, the EU wants to get ALL of Ukraine.

I think the scenario above is the best scenario possible with the most positive longterm outlooks. Leaviong the #ukmraine as it is now, forcing together what does not match inside it borderds, is only delaying problems' breaking out, and will be the cause of futre conflicts.

Due to the geographic nearness, Transnistria should be seen in this context and linked to this conflict, I think. It is no separate thing.

CCIP

03-23-14, 11:26 AM

I personally don't want to add anything from my behalf - but...

Here is some food for thought, for those of you concerned about the current Russia-Ukraine situation.

I have to point out that I DO NOT agree with this position in the slightest, I oppose Russia's official position in this scenario in the strongest terms possible, and I think these arguments are dangerous, BUT - and that's a bigger but than even Sir Mix-A-Lot would like - I think this is far more important to consider and take seriously than the loads of purely anti-Russian, ill-informed crap being thrown around in Western (especially American) media.

http://pavel-shipilin.livejournal.com/252002.html

Below is a translation for the non-Russian speakers. A much more reasoned explanation of the Russian mindset than I've seen in this thread so far.

(by Pavel Shipilin – “Honestly about Crimea, Russia and the Ukraine)

PUTIN’S PARANOIA

The most convenient explanation for the occupation of the peninsula among Ukrainians is the alleged paranoia of Putin, who has been overcome by imperial ambitions and who is determined to leave his footprint on history as the unifier of Russian lands. It’s a systemic mistake, and can bring with it disastrous results.

If we put emotions aside, the quintessence of Putin’s Crimea speech, and all that’s happened, is in this quote: “We are against a military alliance – and NATO remains exactly that with all its internal processes of military organization – and we are against a military organization having its way beside our border, beside our home and on our historical territories. You know, I just can’t imagine going to Sevastopol to visit NATO sailors. Who, by the way, are great guys in their majority – but better for them to come be our guests in Sevastopol, not vice versa”.

Since you’ve heard all this already but haven’t made the right conclusions, allow me to translate: “We know that the current authorities in Kiev have been planning to hand Crimea and Sevastopol over to US control.”

Noone has any reason to doubt that the president of Russia knows this for certain – every morning, among other documents he receives an intelligence summary. How well he is aware of Ukrainian affairs can be gathered by any neutral observer, even simply from intercepted telephone conversations that by now have become widely known – those between the US deputy secretary of state Victoria Nuland and the American ambassador in the Ukraine Jeffery Piett; between Estonian foreign minister Urmas Paet and the European high commissioner Catherine Ashton. But these two intercepted leaks which were followed by media explosions – that’s just the tip of the iceberg.

As for its invisible part, it might not be voiced, but it is that which has led to the appearance of the “polite men” [pro-Russian militias] in the Crimea. I doubt I will be particularly wrong if I suppose that our overseas partners ordered Yatseniuk [current head of Ukrainian government] to prepare documents for the cancellation of the lease on the Black Sea Fleet base at Sevastopol – and, simultaneously, for the leasing of that base to the US Navy. For example, for a hundred billion dollars paid over 100 years.

Debating whether such a course of events sounds incredible is out of place – smart politicians, like military strategists, use opportunities, not probabilities, in making their decisions. And such an opportunity no doubt existed for Yatseniuk.

The appearance of an American base in the Ukraine would be for us Russians the same as the appearance of Soviet missilies in Cuba in 1962. Of course, you could also consider JFK to have been paranoid – for applying the maximum effort for getting rid of them. And, well, he managed to do it.

Putin also put in all available efforts. And so he managed it.

INTERNAL AFFAIR OF THE UKRAINE

Ukraine has become a state which requires heightened attention on behalf of Russian authorities ever since Yuschenko first came to power and announced his intentions to join NATO. So it was the Ukraine, not Russia, which first announced its hostility.

The activity of NATO, as you know, has long made us nervous. But just in case, it is clearly stated in our constitutional Concept of National Security, which which existed in those times: among primary threats in the international sphere, large military-political blocs and alliances were named, and topmost among them – the expansion of NATO eastwards and the possibility of military bases and large military contingents appearing on our borders. Therefore, the Ukrainian government of 2005-2010 was fully aware that we considered their intentions to join NATO a national security threat. But that didn’t stop anyone.

At the same time, sharp discussions began between Russians and aggressively-minded Ukrainians on whether this is Ukraine’s internal business. Today, after the Crimean events, one can say confidently: as much as the basing of Soviet missiles next to US shores was the internal business of Cubans.

Therefore, one has to unambiguously understand that Russia can in no circumstance allow a hostile military bloc to be based in a bordering country. What means and justifications will be used for this is irrelevant.

In 2010, a new official military doctrine was accepted, which the Ukrainians must have studied very carefully, if they consider themselves responsible patriots of a sovereign state. In it, besides the threats mentioned in the Concept of National Security were added external military threats, which have a direct connection to modern Ukraine. For example, the following:

-the basing (strengthening) of military contingents of foreign nations (or groups of nations) on territories of states bordering the Russian Federation, and also in their territorial waters;
-the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, missiles and rocket technology, the increase in the number of states possessing nuclear weapons;
-the use of force on territories adjacent to the borders of the Russian federation in violation of the UN Charter and other norms of international law;
-the appearance and escalation of armed conflicts on territories bordering the Russian Federation and her allied states;
-the spread of international terrorism;
-the appearance of problem areas of inter-ethnic (inter-religious) tensions, activity by international armed militant groups in areas along the state border of the Russian Federation and the borders of her allies, and also the presence of territorial disputes, growth of separatist movements and violent (religious) extremism in particular parts of the world.

In other words, the Ukrainians were honestly warned that moving forces (or declaring a general mobilization), activity of the “Right Sector” who threatened us terrorist acts or incursions, insults towards Russians and even the discussion of nuclear re-armament are all perceived by Russia as threats. Of course, you can continue in the same spirit, not paying attention to our concerns, because a Military Doctrine – that’s merely a declaration. But when doing so, you must realize clearly that you are taking very, very serious risks.

What happens in bordering territories affects us very directly. This must simply be accepted as a given.

FRIENDLY RELATIONS AS A GUARANTEE OF SOVEREIGNTY

I must disappoint the Ukrainians here: you’ve lost Crimea forever. But, as I tried to explain above, there’s no fault of ours here – you have to ask your leaders, from Yuschenko to Yatseniuk and Turchinov, to be accountable here. They methodically prepared its departure, without paying heed to warnings.

I’ll tell you honestly: after it all happened, we all breathed a sigh of relief here in Russia. Now nobody will be able to strike matches out there in Kiev, in the name of self-assertion, they won’t be able to get their traffic police to stop our military vehicles carrying navy rockets. Noone in the Ukrainan parliament will put into question the presence of the Black Sea Fleet and won’t invite American ships into Feodisia or Sevastopol. Instead of putting out fires over and over, we just took away your matchbox. For, sorry, children shouldn’t play with matches – we’re creating a defense against our American partners, we’re putting billions into defense, intelligence, diplomacy… And you’re here with your traffic police.

Sevastopol and the Crimea will always be strategically important to our national security, and the only ones unable to understand this are those, who only see the world from the stage on the Maidan. You can’t pressure us out of there, just like you wouldn’t be able to remove the Americans from Guantanamo or Okinawa. Strange that one has to explain the obvious here.

However, a new danger has appeared to you today – the possibility of other territories leaving to stay under Russia’s wing. And, again, because of your domestic problems. If you’re trying to avoid this, you’ll have to put in some effort.

FIRSTLY, you have to pacify the banderovtsy [right-wing nationalists]. You don’t need to prove to us anymore that their numbers aren’t large, and we just watched too much Russian TV and too many clips on Youtube, and in reality there aren’t too many nationalists. Since they’re so marginal, get rid of all the representatives of the “Freedom” party in your parliament. Can you?
For Ukraine, that’s crucially important. Because every word and action of Dmitry Yarosh, Sashko Biloy, Andrei Parubia and other Tyagniboks, Farions and Miroshnichenkos [nationalist leaders] increases the probability that Russia will solve the problem of your “marginals and clowns” on its own – see the Military Doctrine. And perhaps they’ll do so even with Europe’s cooperation.

SECONDLY, the Ukraine must turn itself into a purely peaceful and cooperatively-disposed state towards us and towards its own citizens. Stop deluding yourself with rumors that the devious Putin is dreaming of springing a cowardly attack on you at the most inconvenient moment, and that you have to arm yourselves to prepare for it.
You’ve understood precisely the opposite of what you should’ve from all this.
If the Ukraine cuts up its tanks, airplanes and air defense systems into scrap, our interest towards you will immediately disappear. It might sound paradoxical, but that’s how it is: to keep its present borders, the Ukraine must stop trying to look threatening.

THIRDLY, all discussions of joining NATO, especially at the highest level, must be treated as treasonous. Because, you can be certain, the next loss of territory will come sooner than your country will be able to sign the declaration to join the military alliance. Don’t step on the rake again. The answer to your eternal question of: “Why us?” can be found directly in the Military Doctrine of the Russian Federation.

FOURTHLY, make Russian a state language, finally. This will immediately relieve the tension and automatically turn the populace of the South-East into your allies and Ukrainian patriots. Today they’re enemies, but enemies by necessity – the only thing making them stand up against central government is the central government.
Pay attention: the Crimea has three official languages – that’s practically the first thing that Putin did to calm down the local population. A new mosque will soon be completed in Simferopol, and of course, new Ukraian and Tatar schools will be opened. Take that as an example – it’s not hard.

FIFTHLY, start reformatting the consciousness of your compatriots who are used to the idea that Russia is Ukraine’s greatest enemy. Tell the hotheads that between the slogan “he who doesn’t jump is a Moskal [Russian]” and the loss of the Crimea there is a direct causal connection. Tomorrow’s slogan is “Moskal is a Ukrainian’s best friend”. And that is pure truth.

But most importantly, SIXTHLY: Ukraine and the Ukrainians have to seriously rethink their place in the world. However harsh it sounds, but you’re not an empire anymore, but a medium-sized state – with all the pluses and minuses consequent to that. You have to change your politics, rhetoric and behaviour. There should be neither threats nor ultimatums heard from Kiev – that’s not for you anymore. You have to learn to achieve your aims only through negotiation.

And please, don’t stand between geopolitical enemies – that is the greatest mistake you’re making. In any scenario, you’ll be the ones who lose, not us.

To preserve your country, you need not tanks and airplanes, but tractors and harvesters. You need to rein in your hawks, which always fly around the world, provoking serious powers and trying to drag them into military conflicts. Precisely the Yatseniuks, Turchinovs and Parubiis, and not Russia, are the threat to your territorial integrity.

Get the stupid thought out of your head that we need your land – we just need a calm, reliable border. And friendly neighbourly relations, if you don’t want alliance.

At least in this, can we find a common language?

Skybird

03-23-14, 11:45 AM

Skybird

03-23-14, 11:54 AM

And this:

And please, don’t stand between geopolitical enemies – that is the greatest mistake you’re making. In any scenario, you’ll be the ones who lose, not us.
This cannot be reiterated often enough. In the Ukraine's very own interest. History holds so many examples how countries and people got caught between superior powers, and got crunshed as a result.

Russia and the EU/NATO/US are no partners, but geopolitical rivals with differeing views, different values, and totally different, often antagonistic strategic demands and necessities. This gets ignored too often in the West, in an attempt especially in Europe to nice-talk things and deny any potential for conflict , so that one can play on the game of assuming that Russia and Europa are all just one big happy family.

China yesterday let it's media announce that Russian resistence to the West is a very important contribution to a better world. Well, go figure.

03-23-14, 12:26 PM

FIRSTLY, you have to pacify the banderovtsy [right-wing nationalists]. You don’t need to prove to us anymore that their numbers aren’t large, and we just watched too much Russian TV and too many clips on Youtube, and in reality there aren’t too many nationalists. Since they’re so marginal, get rid of all the representatives of the “Freedom” party in your parliament. Can you?
For Ukraine, that’s crucially important. Because every word and action of Dmitry Yarosh, Sashko Biloy, Andrei Parubia and other Tyagniboks, Farions and Miroshnichenkos [nationalist leaders] increases the probability that Russia will solve the problem of your “marginals and clowns” on its own – see the Military Doctrine. And perhaps they’ll do so even with Europe’s cooperation.

SECONDLY, the Ukraine must turn itself into a purely peaceful and cooperatively-disposed state towards us and towards its own citizens. Stop deluding yourself with rumors that the devious Putin is dreaming of springing a cowardly attack on you at the most inconvenient moment, and that you have to arm yourselves to prepare for it.
You’ve understood precisely the opposite of what you should’ve from all this.
If the Ukraine cuts up its tanks, airplanes and air defense systems into scrap, our interest towards you will immediately disappear. It might sound paradoxical, but that’s how it is: to keep its present borders, the Ukraine must stop trying to look threatening.

THIRDLY, all discussions of joining NATO, especially at the highest level, must be treated as treasonous. Because, you can be certain, the next loss of territory will come sooner than your country will be able to sign the declaration to join the military alliance. Don’t step on the rake again. The answer to your eternal question of: “Why us?” can be found directly in the Military Doctrine of the Russian Federation.

FOURTHLY, make Russian a state language, finally. This will immediately relieve the tension and automatically turn the populace of the South-East into your allies and Ukrainian patriots. Today they’re enemies, but enemies by necessity – the only thing making them stand up against central government is the central government.
Pay attention: the Crimea has three official languages – that’s practically the first thing that Putin did to calm down the local population. A new mosque will soon be completed in Simferopol, and of course, new Ukraian and Tatar schools will be opened. Take that as an example – it’s not hard.

FIFTHLY, start reformatting the consciousness of your compatriots who are used to the idea that Russia is Ukraine’s greatest enemy. Tell the hotheads that between the slogan “he who doesn’t jump is a Moskal [Russian]” and the loss of the Crimea there is a direct causal connection. Tomorrow’s slogan is “Moskal is a Ukrainian’s best friend”. And that is pure truth.

1) I don't know about the right wingers in Ukraine but Putin is playing with fascism himself.

2) Ukrainian military is bunch of garbage that cannot threaten Russia.
What is it all about....did Ukraine threaten to invade Russia?:doh:
Where are Ukrainian Nukes?

3) Treason?...though that Ukraine was independent.

4) Putin is building Mosques..:sunny:.give me a break.:haha: with all the rest of this paragraph.

5) Judging by recent history Russia has a lot to do to change this mindset.
Actually it did.:doh:..:haha:

But yes.... this is one of those points of view....

Aktungbby

03-23-14, 12:36 PM

Yes to that ^. I said myself on the Scottish referendum that the Scots have any natural right life provides you with when you get born to be independent. I say the same abouit the Venetians who currently have or had a referendum. I would accept if the Bavarians in Germany say they want to leave.

But you have to be able to afford your independence. Financially. Economically. Strategically. You have no right to claim independence, and then demand others to pay for you, straighten your bills, maintain you. And if you think of it: if you live like that, you are not really independent anyway.

Same is true with Kosovo. I still shake my head in disbelief that they allowed this unfit-for-survival creation to be given birth to.

---

On another sidenote, I think it is appropriate that one puts the Ukrainian crisis into its proper relation, even if it widens to Eastern Ukraine and Moldavia as well. It's still a picnic. In a time when German newspapers can seriously come out with headlines like "From the Ukraine to third world war" - and get away with that without any objections to such nonsense, I remind of hotspots in the world that are burning much hotter than the Ukraine, that all hold much more potential for hugh disaster, and many of them already kill people by the thousands and tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands. And some of them COULD lead to a global war indeed.

North Korea.

Afghanistan.

Sudan.

Kongo.

Iran.

Taiwan.

Israel.

Cashmere.

Northern Caucasus.

Thailand.

Senkaku Islands.

Mali.

Nigeria.

Myanmar.

Kongo.

The charme of the Ukraine crisis is, that it creates new headlines that media can report and start many talkshows about. The other conflicts listed already feel somewhat worn-out.

It must be early in the morning 4 U Herr Skybird!: you said Kongo twice and left out Transnistria, also known as Pridnestrovie, altogether(well u did say eastern Moldavia...but that's not politically Korrect!) The hammer and sickle are alive and well here BBY! Maybe I'll head to Tiraspol and drop a few T-rubles (their own currency) on some good Conac, actually a well regarded local product. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria) http://wikitravel.org/upload/en/thumb/b/bc/Flag_of_Transnistria_%28state%29.svg/108px-Flag_of_Transnistria_%28state%29.svg.png (http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=File:Flag_of_Transnistria_(state). svg&page=1) :k_confused::Kaleun_Wink:http://wikitravel.org/upload/shared//thumb/6/63/Transnistria_regions_map.png/250px-Transnistria_regions_map.png (http://wikitravel.org/en/File:Transnistria_regions_map.png) http://daylifeimages.newscred.com/imageserve/37790c6acc0d6ac228cec41720887ea0/666x405.jpg?fit=scale&background=000000 The Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_for_Security_and_Co-operation_in_Europe) (OSCE) is trying to facilitate a negotiated settlement. Under OSCE auspices, on 8 May 1997, the Moldovan President Petru Lucinschi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petru_Lucinschi) and the Transnistrian president Igor Smirnov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Smirnov), signed the "Memorandum on the principles of normalizations of the relations between the Republic of Moldova and Transnistria", also known as the "Primakov Memorandum", sustaining the establishment of legal and state relations, although the memorandum's provisions were interpreted differently by the governments of Moldova and Transnistria.
In November 2003, Dmitry Kozak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Kozak), a counselor of the Russian president Vladimir Putin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin), proposed a memorandum on the creation of an asymmetric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymmetric_federalism) federal Moldovan state, with Moldova holding a majority and Transnistria being a minority part of the federation. Known as "the Kozak memorandum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kozak_memorandum)", it did not coincide with the Transnistrian position, which sought equal status between Transnistria and Moldova, but gave Transnistria veto powers over future constitutional changes; this encouraged Transnistria to sign it. Vladimir Voronin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Voronin) was initially supportive of the plan, but refused to sign it after internal opposition and international pressure from the OSCE and US, and after Russia had endorsed the Transnistrian demand to maintain a Russian military presence for the next 20 years as a guarantee for the intended federation.
Talks were started in 2006 to deal with the problems, but without results for many years. In February 2011 the so-called "5 + 2 Talks" (thus named because they were carried out by Transnistria, Moldova, Ukraine, Russia and OSCE, plus the US and the EU as external observers) were started again in Vienna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna).
Following the precedent set by the accession of Crimea to the Russian Federation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Crimea_to_the_Russian_Federation), in March 2014 Transnistria asked to join the Russian Federation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Federation). Political mittens are already well past dirty here!:-?

CCIP

03-23-14, 12:54 PM

4) Putin is building Mosques..:sunny:.give me a break.:haha: with all the rest of this paragraph.

To be fair, maybe he personally isn't, but a lot of his buddies are.
See, for instance, Ramzan Kadyrov: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramzan_Kadyrov
Great proponent of integration and peace. Thanks to him, Russia is currently the world's 2nd largest source of refugees after Syria (he has people running for their life from Chechnya, where evidence suggests he has death squads operating against any dissenters to his rule). But hey, he prides himself on having built some of the largest mosques in the world in the last few years, one of which he (semi-successfully) lobbied to be made into Russia's national symbol.

He, by the way, harbours some ambition and support for running for the next president of Russia. Wrap your mind around that :doh:

But yes.... this is one of those points of view....

Yup... but that's what passes for a "reasonable" point of view even among relatively civil Russians today, and even expats :( (Being a Russian expat), I find myself in the minority opposing this stuff.

Aktungbby

03-23-14, 01:39 PM

Yup... but that's what passes for a "reasonable" point of view even among relatively civil Russians today, and even expats :( (Being a Russian expat), I find myself in the minority opposing this stuff.Just watch out for guys with pointy umbrellas suddenly hanging out at your favorite bistro Comrade!:|\\:hmmm: 'Vlad the Good'- 'Reuniter of the 'Motherland':nope: seems to have a way of getting his point across...:shifty:

Onkel Neal

03-23-14, 05:03 PM

He, by the way, harbours some ambition and support for running for the next president of Russia. Wrap your mind around that :doh:

Nah, Putin will be "president" for life, that's how dictators operate.

CCIP

03-23-14, 05:17 PM

Nah, Putin will be "president" for life, that's how dictators operate.

Well, I think that's giving him a lot of credit - I think it's easy to see him as a dictator, but I would characterize him more as a figurehead (even if a fairly smart and influential one) in a technocratic junta. And those are far more replaceable than actual dictators, especially when there is technical (i.e. political) advantage to be gained from doing so. We saw that happen once already.

Oberon

03-23-14, 07:27 PM

At the end of the day it depends on how well he serves those who actually run the country, just like any other nation, if he annoys them then he's out.

Of course, who those people are depends on opinion and nation, military, businessmen, mafia, illuminati, aliens... :03:

CCIP

03-23-14, 07:40 PM

In Russia, it's actually possible to talk about such a group - or more likely groups and the balance of power between them. In late 2011, the balance of power there drastically shifted in favour of the so-called "Siloviki" - those who staff the "power ministries", i.e. military, intelligence and state security establishments, most of them rooted in organizational networks and hierarchies that date back to Soviet times. They successfully outmaneuvered, sidelined, repressed or subjugated some of the other prominent powers in Russian politics over the last couple of years, and we see the result. The proper term for this is a junta, and that's exactly what Russia is run by today.

Oberon

03-23-14, 09:55 PM

I was going to refer to the siloviki, having heard of them from a colleague on another forum, but I wasn't sure what they have been up to over the past year or so.

TarJak

03-24-14, 01:29 AM

Running Russia clearly.

Jimbuna

03-24-14, 06:05 AM

Putin will be there until someone backed by more power than those who back him come along.

Dread Knot

03-24-14, 06:43 AM

Putin is riding high now, but the best customers for Russian oil and gas are now actively looking for other sources, as they started five years ago with the unpleasantness in South Ossetia. There is a sense of urgency for that now, which may lead to even less economic and political clout for Russia. Without oil and gas revenue, Russia could be as irrelevant as Ukraine economically.

Overall this move by Putin benefits no one directly, maybe a few nations indirectly. In the short period Putin may see a short rise in popularity due to nationalism, but Crimea is a white elephant for him now, dependent on Russia for it's electricity and potable water.

TarJak

03-24-14, 10:05 PM

Dread Knot

03-25-14, 06:09 AM

Maybe not so high for too long. His deputy economy minister has warned they expecting to see about $70bn US of assets being moved out of Russian investments in the first 3 months of this year.

Not enough for a full blown recession but enough stagnation to cause some serious economic problems if the trend continues in the next 3 months.

Russia is currently riding a bubble of oil revenue that is unsustainable in the long term. All they are achieving right now is persuading their best customers to look elsewhere for their energy. Even if China was willing to buy up all of Russia's production at premium prices that bubble will burst sooner rather than later. Venezuela has made the exact same choice as Putin did: ignore foreign (and domestic) investment and concentrate on exporting raw materials. Doesn't always work in the long term. Especially once the Cult of Personality running the show collapses when the personality departs the stage.

Skybird

03-25-14, 06:24 AM

Why shouldn't for Russia work what works for Europe and the US - the paper money? Consider that American state debt now is at 105% of the GDP, and in combination private and public debt together is at I think 350-400% of GDP - nevertheless the body still floats on the water, not because of a good economic situation, which actually is in an alarming condition, but because they still get pushed by the momentum of having printed money like crazy in the past years - with the according longterm consequences.

So will do Russia as well': if they need money, they print it.

In the long run, of course it leads to total collapse, no matter whether it is the US, Europe, or Russia. In the end, they all will collapse due to their paper money mountains. The order in which they do, is not really important.

China would be all to willing to buy off Russian gasl that the West no longer buys, but currently there is no sufficient infrastructure to transport Russian gas in according quantities to China. Like there is no sufficient infrastructure to transport US gas to Europe, there are not sufficient terminals to load gas tankers, and it is a far more expensive transportation method. Both scenarios would need several years preliminary lead time to become realities.

CCIP

03-25-14, 08:11 AM

Actually there is a recession in Russia and most people are concerned about it there. Skeptics have suggested that the whole game over Crimea is very much about diverting attention away from what was already a precarious economic situation for Russia to begin with.

Meanwhile in the Ukraine...
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26729273

Oleksandr Muzychko, better known as Sashko Bily, died in a shoot-out with police in a cafe in Rivne in western Ukraine, the interior ministry said.

He was a leader of Right Sector, a far-right group which was prominent in the recent anti-government protests.

That's a little concerning. Hopefully it doesn't destabilize what's already kind of a tricky situation there.

Oberon

03-25-14, 02:52 PM

Indeed, one less fascist in the world is generally a good thing, but given how unstable the situation is on the ground, any form of drastic change could make things spiral out of control.

Meanwhile in Transdneister:

Russia's military staged training exercises on Tuesday in Transdniestria, a breakaway sliver of Moldova that is a focus of tension following Russia's annexation of Ukraine's Crimea region.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV1vodHcqkM :03:

Skybird

03-25-14, 03:06 PM

That rightwing extremist shot is no concern, but should be a starting signal for the Ukrainians to go after the gangster hwo have hijkacked the Maidan events and try to secure power for criminal clans. If the Wwestukraine really wants freedom, its people cannot avoid to seriously confront and fight down this scum, whether they want another battle now or not - if they are serious about their freedom, they have no other choice than to fight. That means: fight away the Svoboda as well as the criminal gangs around the oligarchs to which the current interim "government" is closely linked.

On the recession in Russia, I thought time and again to what degree Putin uses the Crimea to distract from the recession, but I time and again come to the same conclusion, that the costs he must have calculkated to be so high that a distracitonba lone does noit justify it. The Ukraine signals towards EU membership and in the aftermath of that: NATO memebership and NATO on the Crimea to me is still the most reasonable explanation for the Russian reaction. When Yanukovich started to indicate he might accept EU association agreements being signed in last winter - thjat was when the planning and preparation on the Russian side began, for there the Ukraine was stepping across the Kremlin's red line.

The current Ukraine gang being in command in Kiew has the situation not under control, and I wonder wether it even wants it to bring under control. Svodobda and gangsters in governmental power positions, ongoing fascist provocations in the East and Kiew not being seriuous about trying to clam down the situation there - I think that this Kiew gang even considers civil war a valid option to secure power for themselves. And the West is wondering and protesting that the Russians amass troops close to (but not directly at) the border? If Kiew moves on like this, its just a question of time before the overstep another red line - and then the Russians WILL invade at least the Estaenr proivbince for sure. The scenario is real, and over the past days I think the probability has constantly risen.

I refuse to hold the Kremlin responsible for this. I am quite certain that they do not like the way things are going down in the Eastern Ukraine, but that they will act with determination and not caring at all for naive Western demands. My God, it is the same west that has invited Islamic extremism to power, that calls the Muslim brotherhood a valid alternative for turning Egypt free and tolerant, and that needed two years to realise that the Georgian leader lied and cheated in order to trigger a war by which he wanted to bring NATO into the war and on behalf of his personal power interests - how could one seriously expect the Russians to take these naive and reality-disconnected idiots in the West serious...? If you look at it, in the past twenty years it was not Russia moving on by tghe rules of the cold war, but the West. It was the West enci8rcling Russia, it was the EU and NATO expanding beyond any reaoisnable scale and dimension and pushing military positions right to the border of Russia itself.

It seems the time has come when the Russians do not allow that to happen anymore without setting up a fight. And when I see things from their side and realise their vital interest - like any nation has vital, non-negotiable essential interests - then I cannot criticise them for it. I only hope that the West does not endlessly stick to its stupid demands and does not support the current Ukraine "government", for if Kiew gets so encouraged by that so that to not give up its policy, this necessarily will lead and must lead to civil war and another, much bigger Russian intervention - for which Western naivety and cluelessness and arrogance would need to accept a big part of the responsibility.

We really have FUBARed the chance we had with the Russians after 1989. We just could not leave it to having "won" the cold war, but we wanted to transform and change Russia on its genetic level and minimise it even further. Not just the then-saved West but all world had to be ours, even the Russian sphere. It all had to become like we are, for we were so fantastic and wonderful.

And since then, oh so many foreign political things and issues exploded us right into our faces. One would imagine politicians to finally learn something. But obviously imagination and reality are two different things.

Skybird

03-25-14, 03:16 PM

Indeed, one less fascist in the world is generally a good thing, but given how unstable the situation is on the ground, any form of drastic change could make things spiral out of control.

Meanwhile in Transdneister:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV1vodHcqkM :03:

Looking at the map, one could see what an idiotic line-drawing had been done when creating the Ukraine and Moldavia.

In these forms and with these borders, I tell you, there will never come stability and lasting peace to that region. Better bet on that you can balance a needle on the tip of another needle.

Dread Knot

03-25-14, 04:16 PM

Looking at the map, one could see what an idiotic line-drawing had been done when creating the Ukraine and Moldavia.

In these forms and with these borders, I tell you, there will never come stability and lasting peace to that region. Better bet on that you can balance a needle on the tip of another needle.

Can't be any worse than the lines drawn by Sykes-Picot which have brought such lasting harmony and peace to the Middle East and Africa. :88)

Probably the only border that any nationality is ever on even terms with are those drawn by the seas and oceans. And then only because they have no choice. ( with the possible exception of the Dutch, of course) :D

Skybird

03-25-14, 04:21 PM

Oh look, just after I typed the postings above, I read this, in German:

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-kiews-regierung-ist-zum-scheitern-verurteilt-a-960461.html

The prime minister is failing. Completely. And he seems to do so intentionally, playing his own highly dubious game. Meanwhile, it is Ukrainians protesting against him, and the vaguely indicated federalist design of a united future Ukraine is impossible to be had with the fascist Svoboda - on whose participation the prime minister insists.

It seems not only the ethnic Russians are not trusting him and do not believe him. Good! :yeah: :yep: They really should dispose this man, and the gang around him. All of them.

Skybird

03-26-14, 09:47 AM

The German government has started to move away from Tymochenko. After her hate-filled tirades on telephone, where she said she would like to shoot Putin right in his head and would like to see the 8 million Russians living in the Ukraine being shot with atomic weapons, Berlin has voiced messages of alarm that a government led by her probably would work for trying to escalate the situation further in a bid to still win it all. Tymochenko, a corrupt oligarch herself who made a fortune by catching the cream on gas deals with Russia and whose reputation at best should be rated as "shady", confirmed the telephone call, but tried to save herself by claiming the critical passage had been manipulated - a claim for which so far no hint was found. That German officials openly comment on it also indicate that they do not believe her claim of it being a trick.

Former chancellor Helmut Schmidt said in the newspaper Die Zeit, which he publishes, that he has understanding for Putin and the situation he is in, and that sanctions now would do more harm than good and are a stupid idea for they would damage the West as much as Russia, also he said that in times of such a crisis it is stupid to break off communication links (ban at the G7), but that the G20 is more important than the G7/8 anyway. Finally he said that the West currently is high on emotions, and that this is dangerous because the irrational attitude of the West would confirm and bolster Russian hawks in their perception that the West only tries to push and minimize them anyway. The chance for a Russian intervention in the Eastern Ukraine he described as being real, but not being an already certainty.

Schmidt was the guy who pressed the Americans to send Pershing-IIs and Cruise Missiles to Germany in the 80s in order to boost the credibility of NATO'S deterring strategy, which originally Washington did not like to do at all - not many people recall correctly that it was Schmidt, not Washington, who was the driving motor behind that rearmament decision. - worth to keep in mind before thinking he is just a biased, naive lefty when defending Russia's actions.

BossMark

03-26-14, 01:55 PM

I see the Kremlin ordered a fireworks display to celebrate Crimea joining Russia.

Either that or one of Putin's rivals tried to start his car.

Susexx

03-27-14, 10:30 AM

New name Alaska - Ice Crimea :D

Dread Knot

03-27-14, 12:15 PM

New name Alaska - Ice Crimea :D

It's all yours, lock, stock and oil barrel provided you take Sarah Palin with you. :O:

Mr Quatro

03-28-14, 12:38 PM

It's all yours, lock, stock and oil barrel provided you take Sarah Palin with you. :O:

speaking of Sarah Palin and Alaska did you see the article about Alaska being annexed by Russia: http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/whitehouse-gov-petition-seeks-to-give-alaska-back-to-russia-165159170.html

The formal request created on WhiteHouse.gov for Alaska to secede from the U.S. has received 30,000 signatures

Dread Knot

03-28-14, 12:43 PM

speaking of Sarah Palin and Alaska did you see the article about Alaska being annexed by Russia: http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/whitehouse-gov-petition-seeks-to-give-alaska-back-to-russia-165159170.html

Like Texas, Alaska has been vying for succession or reversion to a territory for decades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaskan_Independence_Party

Doesn't mean it's likely going to happen. :03:

Aktungbby

03-29-14, 02:21 PM

As per my previous post above: Russian troops are gathering in growing numbers to the east of the Ukrainian border, with the Journal reporting Friday that some 50,000 Russian forces are concealing equipment and bringing in additional food and spare parts. In other words, they're behaving like a military preparing to invade.
The 25,000 Russian troops in Crimea, who include elite special forces brought in the past month, are also setting up a southern military beachhead after disarming the Ukrainian military. And to the southwest, in Moldova's breakaway region of Transnistria, the 1,500 members of Russia's 179th Motor Rifle Regiment have been supplemented in recent weeks with arms and some 800 additional commandos, according to Ukrainian officials.
Altogether Russia has massed 100,000 troops around Ukraine's borders, Andriy Parubiy, chairman of the National Security and Defense Council in Kiev, said in a conference call Thursday organized by the Atlantic Council.
Ukraine's densely populated eastern industrial heartland is the biggest prize for Vlad the Good. The buildup of Russian forces isn't necessarily a prelude to an invasion. The saber rattling by itself is a way to undermine Ukraine's new transitional government formed after last month's pro-Europe revolution and seek leverage over political decisions in Kiev.
Mr. Putin must also take into account that any incursion won't be painless. Ukraine's government, which gave up Crimea with little resistance, promises to fight for the east. Unlike in Crimea, the local population will resist an occupation. But for now Mr. Putin has an overwhelming military advantage if he does choose to move.
Mr. Putin may also be contemplating another front in the south and southwest. Transnistria is an appendix-shaped enclave of half a million mostly ethnic Russians. The region declared its independence from Moldova in 1990, before the Soviet breakup. Russian "peacekeepers" came in after a brief war with Moldova in 1992 and stayed on. Like Georgia's Abkhazia and South Ossetia regions, Transnistria has become a so-called frozen conflict that has given Moscow an ideal pressure point to use against the small, poor formerly Soviet state.
Like Ukraine, Moldova wants to get politically and economically closer to the EU and shuns Russia's alternative Eurasian Union. Last year Mr. Putin blocked imports of Moldovan wine to pressure it not to sign an association deal with the EU, but the government in Chisinau went ahead with it in November. The Moldovans fear the price now may be a territorial carve-up à la Ukraine.
Transnistria voted in 2006 to ask to join Russia and this month its leaders repeated the request. Russia hasn't taken up that appeal, but it did hold military exercises in the region last weekend. Another minority enclave in Moldova populated by the Turkic Gagauz people, who are pro-Russian, held its own Crimea-style referendum on Feb. 2 that called for independence if the Moldovans seek EU membership. In both cases, Russia could use force to cleave off these regions from Moldova.
Ukrainians are worried about another scenario. Transnistria's capital Tiraspol is near Odessa, the Ukrainian port city founded by Catherine the Great, and only about 300 miles from Crimea. The southern Ukrainian regions along the Black Sea are full of Russian speakers. After his Crimean conquest, Mr. Putin now could move on to claim his "corridor"—another historically pregnant phrase—to link Crimea and Transnistria. He has the forces in the peninsula to do it.
These latest Russian escalations follow President Obama's pleas in Europe for the Kremlin to "de-escalate" and try diplomacy or run the risk of further sanctions and "isolation" if he takes more territory. Mr. Obama offered no new sanctions on Russia, no plans to reinforce NATO, and no arms for the Ukrainians or Moldovans.
The White House said Friday that Mr. Putin called Mr. Obama on Friday to discuss a possible diplomatic resolution, but it isn't clear if the Russian is offering concessions or ultimatums. If Mr. Putin does invade further, there won't be much else to stop him or his troops. As with WWI, precipitated by the pan-Slavic Serbian 'Black Hand' of which Gavrilo Princeps was a member and Russia allowed it's ethnic sensibilities to drag itself into the Austral-Serbian conflict in 1914; so too one hundred years later, the same sensibilities are at work. This time, fueled by the collapse of the Soviet Union, regarded by Putin as the great disaster of the 20th century, along with the defeat in Afghanistan, Cold War and an even greater pan-Slavic Russian speaking movement to 'legitimize' his reassembly and restoration of the old Soviet buffer states. The post Waterloo century of peace lasted 100 years or so with minor colonial affairs perhaps our half-century since WWI/WWII " the Wars of 'German Containment' is due to end also...the fuse to the powder keg appears lit! Sarajevo or Sebastopol it's the same match. "Relit in our time" and Obama and the EU are the next Neville Chamberlains...all lit matches look alike to mehttp://thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/lit-match-3532356.jpg (http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/lit-match-3532356.jpg)

Oberon

03-30-14, 02:32 PM

Darth Vader to run for presidency on behalf of the 'Internet Party'

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/image/1053222/1396130982000/large16x9/768/432/darth-vader-ukraine.jpg

To quote Skybird "Story is in German"

http://www.stern.de/politik/ausland/verrueckte-kandidatur-darth-vader-will-praesident-der-ukraine-werden-2100091.html

And to be radical, here's one in English:
http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/198371.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Party_of_Ukraine

Jimbuna

03-30-14, 03:07 PM

Putin has what he wanted so now the talking can begin with him in a position of strength.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and US Secretary of State John Kerry are holding crisis talks on Ukraine.

The meeting in Paris was hastily arranged after President Vladimir Putin phoned President Barack Obama on Friday and began around 19:00 (17:00 GMT).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26809625

Skybird

03-30-14, 05:51 PM

Mr Lavrov told Russian state TV that Ukraine should come up with a new constitution "providing for a federal structure" and neutrality.

The Russian foreign minister said Moscow, the US and European Union should act as a support group for Kiev to begin a nationwide dialogue that did not involve the "armed radicals". Moscow claims that fascists have taken power in Ukraine, jeopardising the safety of Russian speakers.

In an interview on Saturday, he said Russia had been deceived after being promised "there would be no movement of Nato military infrastructure closer to our borders".

A certain influence in inner politics, to guard ethnic Russians' interest (which is reasonable consideirng the hate and threats spit out by the radical rightwingers and fascist who currently hold several seats in this joke of a government, as well as Tymoshenko's recent telephone comment that she would "like to shoot all Russians with nuclear weapons" and would "like to shoot Putin a bullet into the head"), a Ukraine being neutral instead of being a NATO member (keep in mind that Kiev in past months indicated that it wanted to join EU, NATO - which would have meant that sooner or later US warships would be stationed in Sevastopol and fighters and radar on the Crimea), and a remove of the right radicals from power.

Well, Washington and Brussel will learn this sooner or later. The Crimea they already have given up anyway.

Jimbuna

03-31-14, 06:32 AM

^ yeah, damage limitation/saving face is just about all the west can hope for now.

Skybird

03-31-14, 06:47 AM

Actually, I hope for more: uf highest priority in this geographic location is: stability. This interest is international, and the need for stability emits far beyond the borders of the Ukraine in its current format.

If the Ukraine were split between pro-EU Ukraine and pro-Russia Ukraine, this could lead to a competition in economic and fiscal support from both sides much like it was the case with the ideological showcases that West and East German were turned into. It benefited the Germans in both parts of the country, Eastgermans materially were better off than any other Soviet satellite state (the GDR was the richest of the Soviet vasall nations), and Westgermany - well, the story is known.

A neutral Ukraine not being part of NATO, could serve indeed as a natural puffer zone between NATO and Russia. This is the one Russian proposal that I fully support in completeness.

The Russians want federalism understood as the provinces forming loose union of more or less sovereign states, to weaken them. I understand federalism more in the German or American way: one nation, but strong federal states. I think one could get the Russian to will negotiating the Western form of federalism for the remaining Ukraine.

Precondition of course is that the Ukrainian people finally stop voting for criminal gangster, oligarchs and fascist mobs. If they do not dispose these, than I see no reason why even a single cent should be invested for aid. Most of that cent would end up in corrupt channels anyway.

One has to face it, the Ukraine messed up since it declared independence 1991, it is pretty much a failed state currently, because it based on corrupt power structures and economically was not in shape to found that independence. It is not enough just to be independent and expecting others to maintain you. You need to be able to afford your freedom and sovereignty. You do not have claims towards others to pay for you.

The current Ukraine is a mess-up in this regard.

I oppose the Ukraine joining the EU as well. The EU already has its hands full, both of them. We are hopelessly overburdened and do not need to want shouldering new additional burdens. That's why I ask for very strict criterions to decide when what fincial aid may flow, and I mdo not want irresponsible EUphile gangsters having a word in that, because they lack all sense of resopnsibklity when it comes to the money they are burning up.

Jimbuna

04-02-14, 07:37 AM

It may be that Sashko Bily accidentally shot himself.

A Ukrainian far-right leader accidentally shot and killed himself during a shoot-out with police last month, an investigation has concluded.

The inquiry by the interior ministry said Oleksandr Muzychko, aka Sashko Bily, had shot himself in the heart as police tried to wrestle him to the ground during the chase.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26849934

Jimbuna

04-02-14, 12:10 PM

Putin may have gained Crimea but he has lost his wife...I'm confident he'll be happy with the exchange.

The Kremlin has confirmed that the divorce of Russian President Vladimir Putin from his wife of 30 years, Lyudmila, has been finalised.

The country's best-known couple, who have two daughters in their late 20s, went on TV in June to announce they were breaking up.

Mr Putin, 61, was still officially listed as "married" only last week.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26850204

August

04-02-14, 05:41 PM

Putin may have gained Crimea but he has lost his wife...I'm confident he'll be happy with the exchange.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26850204

If she ends up dead we'll know who left who. :yep:

BossMark

04-03-14, 02:36 AM

I see the Russian army is now conducting drills on Finland's border.

Or as Putin calls it, "window shopping."

Jimbuna

04-03-14, 06:44 AM

If she ends up dead we'll know who left who. :yep:

Aye that.

The divorce was "civilised" and the couple would "always remain close", she added.

And the band played 'Believe it if you like'.....I reckon in Russia, even his wife does as he bids.

Skybird

04-07-14, 06:46 AM

Things are getting hot in the Donezk region. An Ukrainian army officer is claimed to have been shot by a Russian. The HQ of Ukrainian security services have been stormed. Pro-Russian activists proclaim a split of the region from the Ukraine, and ask Russia for help.

And in Brussels they are wondering why the Russians have withdrawn just one batallion from the border.

Jimbuna

04-07-14, 10:33 AM

Loads of smoke and mirrors still to come from both sides.

mapuc

04-07-14, 12:21 PM

Coincidence or what? The last few weeks I have been listening to an audio book "midwinter darkness" the book came out in 2009/2010 and was a futuristic scenario where Russia during the second day of Christmas 2012, begin a military attack on Sweden.

In the book a crisis between Russia and Ukraine is mentioned a few times.

Here comes the spooky part of it or is it just a coincidence?

According the the Swedish newspaper today, which have quoted the Swedish Security police.

Russia is preparing war against Sweden! (the words in the article)

According to the agency, there has been a huge increase of activity by KGB and the Military intelligence.

Markus

Skybird

04-07-14, 12:23 PM

Any army worth its name prepares for wars all peacetime long. Don't panic.

mapuc

04-07-14, 12:35 PM

Any army worth its name prepares for wars all peacetime long. Don't panic.

I for one don't panic, Russia and before that the Sovjets have always had some military interest in Sweden or part of it.

Should they decide to put the things into action there's not so much Sweden can do.

Markus

Lionclaw

04-08-14, 01:33 AM

Should they decide to put the things into action there's not so much Sweden can do.

Markus

Indeed. :nope:

I remember when the commander in chief mentioned that Sweden could only be defended for one week on its own. :doh:

mapuc

04-08-14, 02:17 PM

Indeed. :nope:

I remember when the commander in chief mentioned that Sweden could only be defended for one week on its own. :doh:

Once upon a time our royal Navy(Kungliga flottan) was something to be proud of and the same one could say about the Royal Airforce
(Kungliga flygvapnet)

Today.....?

Markus

Jimbuna

04-08-14, 02:31 PM

Once upon a time our royal Navy(Kungliga flottan) was something to be proud of and the same one could say about the Royal Airforce
(Kungliga flygvapnet)

Today.....?

Markus

You must be going back many years naval wise :)

Never knew you had an airforce :O:

mapuc

04-08-14, 02:44 PM

You must be going back many years naval wise :)

Never knew you had an airforce :O:

In the 60's the Swedish airforce was the fifth biggest in the world.....
today..Don't know if I should :har: or :wah:

Markus

Lionclaw

04-08-14, 05:08 PM

They've done so much cost cutting over the years, it's suprising there's anything left.. :nope:

I don't think the Home Guard (Hemvärnet) can do much.

Oberon

04-08-14, 08:18 PM

You'd be surprised, ours were quite good at capturing downed German pilots...and Polish pilots...and Czech pilots... :dead: :/\\!!

Jimbuna

04-09-14, 08:34 AM

In the 60's the Swedish airforce was the fifth biggest in the world.....
today..Don't know if I should :har: or :wah:

Markus

I think we could all :har: or :wah: the way cuts have been carried out in recent years.

Aktungbby

04-09-14, 07:50 PM

The Kremlin has confirmed that the divorce of Russian President Vladimir Putin from his wife of 30 years, Lyudmila, has been finalised.Perhaps she wasn't 'Lyud' enough:D: these divorces can be messy affairs; she obviously was falling down in the T-shirt department: But at least he's not horsin' around anymore;(same photo twice?) Modesty still ain't his strong "suit"!http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1133558/original.jpghttp://static2.businessinsider.com/image/532ae8e469bedd882fd7c738-400-560/bjlbskhiuaau5gr.png

Alex

04-10-14, 04:33 AM

Modesty still ain't his strong "suit"!
http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/130932681.jpg
He's 61. Feeling jealous for his physical appearance ? :O:

As for modesty, riding a horse :88)... I don't think he would look more modest that way (http://bitchypants.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/obama-car.jpg).

But that may be just my opinion.

Skybird

04-11-14, 09:48 AM

According to German tabloid "BILD", an internal and kept-secret analysis by NATO comes to the conclusion that mobilisation schemes and movement and stationing patterns of Russian forces only leave the conclusion that Russia plans the complete occupation of the Ukraine. Also, the Russians already have countered recent reinforcments of NATO's air contingents in Eastern territories of the alliance by having sent twelve batteries of modern SA-21 to Kaliningrad. NATO also knows, so reports BILD, that Kiev already has given up the Eastern territories of the Ukraine and has moved back military forces from there to focus on the defence of the Ukrainian center and West, less than 2000 Ukrainian soldiers should be left by now in the Eastern provinces.

Russia has amassed over 25,000 units with modern equipment and training near the border. Ukrainian forces are said to be inapt to stop the Russians if the latter should start playing serious business. Though I would think for occupying the hostile centre and West, it would take them more than just 25 thousand. Maybe they make the same mistake now like the Americans in Iraq - going in with too small forces.

However, that NATO analysis as well could just be a propaganda stunt by the alliance to secure unity by wavering NATO members.

Meanwhile, foreign minister Lawrow demanded guarantees from the West that the Ukraine will never join NATO and NATO will never move into the Ukraine and operate form there. I think that is a bluff to win time and create rifts amongst Western diplomats, because by now the Russians have learned by several examples that Western guarantees are not worth anything - not during the Yeltzin years, and not regarding the integrity and security of the Ukraine when it handed over its nuclear arms and not regarding Western guarantees in context of events in the ME.

Personally, I always considered it possible that the Russians would take also the East and then a land corridor to Odessa and then Transnistria as well. If they indeed risk a war to take the whole Ukraine, then this indeed would surprise me a little bit, since it is an unusually aggressive move even for the standards of Putin. But after Kiew has danced on his nose for over one and a half decade now and indicated it wanted to join NATO last autumn, maybe he just has lost his patience.

I still think that NATO should stay away from the Ukraine now and in the future, and should not intervene even if the Russians march in. After all, it is no NATO country and thus no NATO business, nor is it a political actor we can or should trust. The political landscape is such that it justifies no support, it is highly suspicious and criminal.

A German investigative TV magazine claims to be in possession of recordings of sniper radio communications from the Maidan, and that one could conclude from them that there was great confusion about who started to snipe civilians there. There are strong indications indeed that it were neither the Russian agents from the FSB assumed to have operated in the area, nor Yanukovich-loyal Berkut snipers, but indeed where snipers from radical and criminal factions of the so-called opposition starting to shoot to kill. The magazine reported about interviews amongst the crowds on the Maidan at that time, and many of them refusing that it were FSB or Yanukovich men opening the frenzy. Finally, the calamity was opened from buildings that at that time were under control of the opposition - how could FSB and Yanukovich agents start to fire from its roofs and windows when opposition crowds and members of the extreme far right were swarming all over the place?

Flamebatter90

04-11-14, 09:56 AM

Putin (minus a leg) riding a swimming Putin, do I win?
http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s480x480/551417_290534167741907_1175791948_n.jpg

Tango589

04-11-14, 10:59 AM

Putin (minus a leg) riding a swimming Putin, do I win?
http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s480x480/551417_290534167741907_1175791948_n.jpg

Yes, but you won't like what you've won.

Flamebatter90

04-11-14, 11:02 AM

Better be a miniature Putin!

Jimbuna

04-11-14, 11:55 AM

It looks like the offer to devolve more powers to the eastern region are a last ditch attempt keeping the country united.

I reckon nothing will pacify the east now.

Ukraine's interim prime minister has offered to devolve more powers to eastern regions, where pro-Russian separatists are defying the government.

He is holding talks with regional leaders in Donetsk, where activists demanding self-rule are holding a big government building.

It is not clear if Arseniy Yatsenyuk's offer will satisfy the separatists.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26984799

Oberon

04-13-14, 07:48 AM

Meanwhile on the other side of the Ukrainian/Russian border:

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7044/13762285563_fd13dc24a8_h.jpg

It cannot be a co-incidence that some of the more severe uprisings in Eastern Ukraine are taking place in areas with airfields in them. Donetsk, Kramatorsk, Lugansk, if I were Russia, these would be my first ports of call on an airmobile invasion force. In fact, if I were Russia I would do this:
http://i.imgur.com/vJ3j9Sf.jpg

Probably just as well I'm not because that's probably a terrible plan, but if the intel from the BBC is correct, with the amount of forces that Russia has near the Ukrainian border, they could be at the gates of Kharkov within a day.

Here's an interesting source of information that I found:
http://wiki.baloogancampaign.com/index.php/Flashpoint:_Ukraine_2014

No idea how accurate it is, but it seems a pretty good coverage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YdBZa28_CQ

Jimbuna

04-13-14, 12:37 PM

Some interesting info there Jamie, thanks for posting :up:

Oberon

04-13-14, 03:27 PM

Aktungbby

04-13-14, 04:24 PM

He's 61. Feeling jealous for his physical appearance ? Not at ALL! at 63 and still 'a cáballo' occasionally myself, I'm just worried; Genghis Khan and William the Conqueror, horsemen to the max, died slooowly and painfully from ruptured cajones (gangrene) after their respective mounts shied, balked or otherwise mis-stepped in the midst of their conquests! If Vlad the Good (note the cross & chain) is going to persist in reuniting the old Soviet Empire I would prefer him in good fettle...and re-Lyudded!:haha: I recently had minor surgery done thereabouts and feel his pain...of course that looks like a McClellan cavalry saddle he's on (with a Mongolian bridle!) so he might not be hurting just yet.:timeout:

Better be a miniature Putin!

Is not every man-at heart- a mini-putin?!:har:

Jimbuna

04-14-14, 04:37 AM

The source of information I found seems to be a campaign created for Command, however the information contained within seems to be within a fairly accurate state, so the guy seems to have done his research.

Rgr that.

Pro-Russian militants continue to occupy government buildings in eastern Ukraine, ignoring a deadline to leave or face eviction by Ukrainian forces.

Ukraine's interim president promised military action if government buildings were not given up by 06:00 GMT.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27018199

Could this be the quickest way to bring about the end game and precisely the excuse Putin needs? :hmmm:

Aktungbby

04-14-14, 01:34 PM

The question begs...if the non-insignia'd 'Russians, which Moscow denies are involved, are captured in battle, does any semblance of the Geneva Convention apply to illegal masked banditos here?

Jimbuna

04-14-14, 01:39 PM

I doubt the Ukrainians will fight other than in self defence of the western part of the country.

Any attack would be almost suicidal when considering the number of troops on their border and I'm confident they know that.

Their best chance is NATO giving military assistance and I'll wager that won't happen.

Oberon

04-14-14, 02:14 PM

It's 50/50 I'd say Jim, Russia won't go west of Kharkov, they don't need to. What they want is the Ukraines financial heart, without the east the Ukraine will be forced to beg for money from anyone that will give it to her, even with the east the crippling financial situation is going to ruin the Ukraine for the next decade at least, without it, Ukraine is in deep matter.
Russia is hoping for a quick airmobile assault into the east, take a look at where these uprisings are happening, all around airfields, Kramatorsk AFB, Donetsk has an airport (although the last Google earth image of it has it in very poor condition, but nothing engineers couldn't fix up) and Lungask AFB. There's also an airfield not far from Kharkov at Chuguyev which is close to the Russian border, and would fall quickly in any airborne assault.
Ukraine has been putting SAM and AAA systems eastward, but it's debatable how affective they will be against Flankers with Krypton ARMs. The Ukraine will be wanting to slow the Russians down for as long as possible in order to give NATO time to respond. NATOs response will be two fold, the likelihood of weapons sales to the Ukrainian government is high, and when the Russians have got their line set up between Kharkov to the north and the Dneiper to the south then NATO may well move in to western Ukraine in order to 'protect it from Russian expansionism', and we'll be looking at a return to the whole East/West Germany affair. It'll be a win for Russia in that it'll get its 'protection of ethnic Russians in Ukraine' and a win for NATO because it gets to stand up to 'Russian expansionism' but the Ukraine, or what will be left of it, will be totally boned.

Jimbuna

04-14-14, 02:56 PM

^ Pretty much concur but always expect the unexpected from Putin and heaven only knows what he'll do now that his political puppets have given him a free hand to protect ethnic Russians.

I don't see the Ukraine coming out of this at all well irrespective of what the future holds.

mapuc

04-14-14, 03:40 PM

Have just been reading the Leader from aftonbladet.se(the owner of a newspapers daily saying) it was about a young guy with a broken nose. He had been interviewed 3 times by 3 different Russian news media and every time the story was quit different.

Markus

Skybird

04-14-14, 04:20 PM

The East is lost for Kiew, and what happens there is an almost identical copy of the events on Crimea. With securing the East for Russia, Putin has reached his goal of splitting the Ukraine and porevcenting it from becioming a big united NATO base, and not even the Western remains can dare to become a NATO member, not to mention that several NATO states, at least Germany, would oppose that move anyway now. Ukraine will become a rest body that stays weak and cannot become a strategic threat for Russia. Putin also must not invade Ukraine if Kiew does not order m ilitary action, becasue those mobs taking over in the East could only act like they do when a silent majority of the local population tolerates the events - which obviously what they do indeed. So it is not even a hostile takeover of these territories, from a perspective of the local population (its majority).

It falls apart what never should have come together to form a "sovereign" wannabe-state. The inner rifts and breaking-lines were too obvious from beginning on. Funny part is, I was in "Grundstudium" when the Ukraine was declaring sovereignity in 1991, learning for my "Vordiplomsprüfung", and in debates with freinds I back then preicted that the Ukraine would not last biut fall in part, maybe in civil war. Nobody believed me, they all still were drunk of Glasnost and Perestroika and cold war "won". So, dear stupid Western politicians, such obvious outcome actually can be forseen decades in advance. ;) Did somebody hear the Dutch and Belgian ministers commenting today on German TV, the naive childishness and heartbreaking helplessness they dared to express in front of cameras and microphones? Made my evening,Ii almost spit my dinner on the screen, laughing. Compared to that even the German foreign minister sounds like an intellectual genius, although he is nothing but a vacuum moving around in the world and sucking air in.

Russia will now press to have the Western Ukraine also not joining the EU.

What really is left and is somewhat difficult to forsee is Russia's next move on Transnistria and the region around Odessa. Odessa not being Russian? Difficult to imagine or accept from a Russian POV.

Kiew'S referendum idea is a joke, it compares to the story of two wolves and a lamb deciding what will be eaten for lunch. The referendum is only to be held by people who want to fall away from the Ukraine. Why other people not living in the affected regions should have a say in it, escapes me: do the latter think they could own the first? If Bavaria wants to secede from the rest of Germany, no matter what treacherous laws say, the decision whether Bavairans want to get governed by Berlin or not any longer, is not to be made by Berlin, of Northrhine Westphalia or the people in Lower Saxony - but the people living in Bavaria exclusively. Any law hindering them to do so, is against natural law and is morally invalid and a crime against human freedom.

Mittelwaechter

04-14-14, 04:21 PM

Thank god - or someone else investing 5 billion bucks - in Putin's backyard happened a coup d'état. This guy got too much positive feedback for saving thousands of Syrians from being cruise missiled.
Quick - someone should offer weapons to the upset people or the endangered new government.
Maybe some instructors or Academi helpers too...

Oberon

04-14-14, 09:54 PM

I dunno Sky, I think Russia will let, or more likely offer as a concession its blessing for western Ukraine to join the EU, as it's essentially a husk of Ukraine devoid of any means to generate income and thus would only serve to further drain the EUs precious resources, putting it closer to the point of collapse and fragmentation which would mean that there would be no united Europe in order to challenge Russian hegemony over Eastern Europe. Eastern Ukraine will become a part of Russia and thus will void its debts, or will have any small debts absorbed by the Russian economy, and western Ukraine will still be forced to kowtow to Moscow for gas supplies until its able to get them from elsewhere.

Jimbuna

04-15-14, 04:57 AM

More of the same old talk...

US President Barack Obama has urged his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin to use his influence to make separatists in eastern Ukraine stand down.

The phone call between the two leaders came as pro-Russian activists continued to occupy buildings in eastern towns.

For his part, Mr Putin rejected accusations of Russian interference, calling the reports "unreliable".

Must be like treading on eggshells.

Meanwhile, Ukraine's acting President, Olexander Turchynov, has announced the start of an "anti-terrorist operation".

He told parliament it had begun in the "north of Donetsk Region" on Tuesday morning and was being conducted "stage by stage, in a responsible and weighed manner".

The extent of the operation was unclear but unconfirmed reports on Russian media, quoting separatists, speak of Ukrainian armour being on the move near the flashpoint towns of Sloviansk and Kramatorsk.

Tanks and armoured personnel carriers could be seen parked 70km (44 miles) from Sloviansk on Monday.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27030652

Oberon

04-15-14, 09:07 PM

http://abload.de/img/ukr216ztjj6.jpg

Now we wait...

Skybird

04-16-14, 05:56 AM

At least "several dozens" of soldiers have switched sides and joined the forces of the Donezk opposition. In Slawjansk and Kramatorsk they have reflagged their armoured vehicles as well, operating now under Russian colours. :O: :D There is photographic evidence for it.

On the Crimea, there also have been small events like this - but in so many places that in the end the number of soldiers switching sides resulted in many hundreds.

Jimbuna

04-16-14, 07:27 AM

It must be very hard for the Ukrainians, not wanting to antagonise the Russians and feeling physical opposition from their own people as well.

Ukrainian troops have entered the eastern town of Kramatorsk a day after an operation began to recapture areas seized by anti-government separatists.

But they were blocked by civilians and the situation is unclear, amid reports that some may have abandoned their vehicles or even changed sides.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27045534

Skybird

04-16-14, 07:41 AM

It must be very hard for the Ukrainians, not wanting to antagonise the Russians and feeling physical opposition from their own people as well.

"The" Ukrainians? They are obviously not one homogenous group, but at least two quite differently feeling groups (three if you count the Tartarians as a different group as well). ;) In a multi-cultural state like the old Soviet Union, this was not so much an issue in everyday life and private relations between ordinary people and in the Ukraine many ethniuc Russians are married to ethnic Non-Russians. The moment the Ukraine turned into a sovereign state for the first time ever in history (in other words: it got artificially created), it immediately became a hot boiling issue. The ink-drawn borders on the maps did not take into account ethnic borderlines, and borderlines between interest spheres projected from higher, supernational levels of the political hierarchy.

I think there is some lessons to be learned from this example , especially for the EU's glorious social engineers. Not that there have not been examples like this before, but I am told time and again that I should not give up hope that people will finally learn, so... :D I think this is also part of the explanation for what Westerners found so hard to understand: why so many people in the former USSR still are sorry for the USSR being gone. The loss of imperial glory is one aspect of it, yes. But it is not the only one.

Skybird

04-16-14, 09:58 AM

"Welcome!" looks different.

http://cdn2.spiegel.de/images/image-684641-galleryV9-mdik.jpg

http://cdn3.spiegel.de/images/image-684642-galleryV9-aojm.jpg

http://cdn1.spiegel.de/images/image-684644-galleryV9-ferg.jpg

http://cdn1.spiegel.de/images/image-684528-galleryV9-udfw.jpg

http://cdn1.spiegel.de/images/image-684578-galleryV9-yjyt.jpg

http://cdn4.spiegel.de/images/image-684743-galleryV9-crey.jpg

http://cdn4.spiegel.de/images/image-684283-galleryV9-ptms.jpg

CCIP

04-16-14, 10:28 AM

February 2014:

Western media: Ordinary people standing up for democracy and civil rights protest in Kiev - president orders "counter terrorist" operations and has peaceful protesters fired on; pro-Russian thugs controlled by Moscow special services dictate the course of policy, lead to violence, leave people no choice but to stand up.

Russian media (incl. RT): Western-funded opportunists and agents + ultra-right radicals depose constitutionally elected government; armed thugs incite violence and provocateurs fire on protestors. All sorts of proof thereof. Obviously the West is controlling this and the Ukrainian president has no choice but to conduct a counter-terrorist operation against legitimate threat

***
April 2014:

Western media: Russian-funded opportunists and agents + reactionary radicals oppose a government of the people; armed Russian thugs incite violence and provocateurs fire on security forces and peaceful protesters. All sorts of proof thereof. Obviously Russia is controlling this and the Ukraine's acting president has no choice but to conduct a counter-terrorist operation against legitimate threat

Russian media: Ordinary people standing up for democracy and civil rights protest in Donetsk region - president orders "counter terrorist" operations and has peaceful protesters fired on; nationalists thugs controlled and funded by EU, NATO, the US State Department and CIA dictate the course of an unconstitutional government's policy, lead to violence, leave people no choice but to stand up.

***

Notice anything yet? :hmmm:

Tribesman

04-16-14, 10:37 AM

Notice anything yet? :hmmm:
Yes, the dates changed.

Oberon

04-16-14, 01:19 PM

SSDD, as they say. :03:

http://cdn4.spiegel.de/images/image-684743-galleryV9-crey.jpg
Oooh, MiG-29 I believe. :yep:

Meanwhile, as Skybird has said, some units have been 'captured/defected' so the pro-Russian forces are getting better armament:

http://abload.de/img/ukr273o9ku2.jpg

So, it's really only a matter of time before things start getting really ugly, unless some rabbit is pulled out of the hat at the eleventh hour.

Still, in slightly lighter news:

MULTI-TREAD DRIFTING!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtfL54BLV7s

And it seems that Donetsk is also going for the Japanese vote by appointing Ekaterina Gubareva as the Foreign minister for the 'Donetsk Peoples Republic'

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/SUAu-pLDdEQ/0.jpg

vs the prosecutor general of Crimea:

http://www.japantoday.com/images/size/x/2014/03/natalia.jpg

I think they've got some work to do... :hmmm:

Betonov

04-16-14, 01:27 PM

And it seems that Donetsk is also going for the Japanese vote by appointing Ekaterina Gubareva as the Foreign minister for the 'Donetsk Peoples Republic'

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/SUAu-pLDdEQ/0.jpg

vs the prosecutor general of Crimea:

http://www.japantoday.com/images/size/x/2014/03/natalia.jpg

I think they've got some work to do... :hmmm:

I think I've got some emigrating to do

Oberon

04-16-14, 01:46 PM

I think I've got some emigrating to do

For you:

http://www7.pic-upload.de/16.04.14/po99yhjxj59d.jpg

http://www7.pic-upload.de/16.04.14/ay55m6l12iuy.jpg

http://www7.pic-upload.de/16.04.14/6eis82bz1a.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/KaS6YcF.jpg

http://img.v3.news.zdn.vn/Uploaded/aolnpvp/2014_04_10/fbcef2d7f427df0d500f6a7067008455.jpg

http://photo.qip.ru/photo/lrsyberian/96706485/xlarge/132466869.jpg

:03:

Betonov

04-16-14, 02:05 PM

Half the psychologists on the planet just understood the male attraction to war :)

Oberon

04-16-14, 02:16 PM

Half the psychologists on the planet just understood the male attraction to war :)

I have no idea what you're talking about... :O:

Meanwhile:

http://www.anthonypryor.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/1356558447716.jpg

Skybird

04-16-14, 04:46 PM

It's all a big mangavasion! :woot:

I do not think that all of those civilians in the East indeed want to go together with Russia, some want that, some not. They still welcome the separatist action and the militias (or commandos, who knows...) and oppose Kiev's troops, because they are pissed by Kiev. The interesting details seems to be that many of the non-ethnic-Russians seem to think like that, too. To what degree a joining with the Russian federation is acceptable to them by the logic of choosing the lesser evil, remains to be seen. I think Kiev has no reason to be optimistic there.

NATO reinforces its forces bit in the East. Call it sending a sign of still being alive. To boost NATO presence on the ground in the Eastern member states however is formally a violation of existing treaties with Russia (that limit NATO ground forces in Poland and the Baltic states). I would not give too much for that currently, I just remind of it for the sake of completeness. It offers the Russians another opportunity, to stage a legally valid and formally relevant protest. In other words, although it sounds paradoxical: it weakens NATO's stand in tomorrow's "negotiations". Personally, I agree with boosting defences in the East in quantity. Just tio remind Russia that NATO that not just the Kremlin but NATO as well has red lines (at least it should have, but with politicians you never know).

TarJak

04-16-14, 05:45 PM

Saw a hard copy map today showing 10 ethnic Russian enclaves that want to join Russia and 10 ethnic minorities in Russia that want to leave. Complex place Russia.

mapuc

04-16-14, 05:50 PM

Heard a specialist on Danish tv, saying Putin want to rebuild some of the old soviet

He mentioned 4 former soviet state that Putin could take without any military response from the West/NATO

Markus

Admiral Halsey

04-17-14, 12:51 AM

Heard a specialist on Danish tv, saying Putin want to rebuild some of the old soviet

He mentioned 4 former soviet state that Putin could take without any military response from the West/NATO

Markus

What states were those?

kranz

04-17-14, 03:52 AM

What states were those?

Kentucky, Florida, Maine and Ohio.

Oberon

04-17-14, 05:32 AM

Kentucky, Florida, Maine and Ohio.

No Georgia? :O: :haha:

Jimbuna

04-17-14, 05:59 AM

Kentucky, Florida, Maine and Ohio.

LOL :)

kranz

04-17-14, 06:27 AM

that was a bad joke indeed, but every time I read this thread I'm both amazed and ashamed that my country doesn't want to reclaim Lithuania, the other half of Ukraine, Hungary, Moldova, Belarus and a few regions in Russia, Romania and Slovakia.

Historically speaking, they were all Polish at some time in the past.
http://odkrywcy.pl/gid,14863275,img,14863521,page,3,title,Jak-zmieniay-si-granice-Polski,galeriazdjecie.html?smg4sticaid=61290d

04-17-14, 06:36 AM

Look at this this way...
Getting rid of those territories and getting the ex german ones instead is best deal ever for Poland.
Just look at this map...what a mess it is.:haha:

Catfish

04-17-14, 06:38 AM

[...] every time I read this thread I'm both amazed and ashamed that my country doesn't want to reclaim Lithuania, the other half of Ukraine, Hungary, Moldova, Belarus and a few regions in Russia, Romania and Slovakia.
Historically speaking, they were all Polish at some time in the past. [...]

How about restoring the borders like in, say, 1942 ? :O:

Ok this was a bad joke :03:

Oberon

04-17-14, 07:59 AM

Well...if we're talking about restoring old borders... :hmmm:

http://home.btconnect.com/eniac/Empire/Graphics/THE%20British%20Empire.jpg

Dread Knot

04-17-14, 08:11 AM

Well...if we're talking about restoring old borders... :hmmm:

http://home.btconnect.com/eniac/Empire/Graphics/THE%20British%20Empire.jpg

Even this map has a few of the famous "pink bits" missing. Ceylon...British Honduras...Aden...Palestine...Cyprus. :hmmm:

Skybird

04-17-14, 08:35 AM

Apples and oranges. 2000 years, 200 years and 20 years, are three very different time frames.

Wikipedia has a nice summary of the history of the changing fate the Ukrainian territory has seen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine

kranz

04-17-14, 09:25 AM

Well...if we're talking about restoring old borders... :hmmm:

old borders = having colonies.
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not

Oberon

04-17-14, 09:43 AM

old borders = having colonies.

not

Hey, you try expanding into the sea, only the Dutch are crazy enough to do that. :O:

kranz

04-17-14, 10:31 AM

Hey, you try expanding into the sea, only the Dutch are crazy enough to do that. :O:
:)

I was just trying to say that all of skybird's gibberish about 'Crimea's past' and 'locals being Russian not Ukrainian' is utter and complete BS.

There are a lot of villages in Lithuania in which 80% of inhabitants are Poles.
Have you ever heard of any referenda there? Lithuanians hate Poles as much as Poles hate Lithuanians but there has never been any freaking idea to re-incorporate these lands as it would violate international treaties and whatnot.

All the photos and 'data' he has posted so far to prove that the Russians take what is theirs only probe he's on a mental and intellectual level of a 5yo.

Oberon

04-17-14, 10:49 AM

I wasn't aware of this Polish-Lithuanian aminosity, I guess that it would date back to the whole second partition of Poland after the 1792 war? I know my great-great-grandmother came from Lithuania but on their census certificates in 1911 it's marked as 'Russian-Poland' and their nationality as 'Russian'.

Jimbuna

04-17-14, 11:00 AM

The difference between Russia and Poland in reclaiming old territories is more or less down to the fact Russia only respects the international treaties and agreements it likes and has the power to do otherwise almost at will...not that that is correct imo.

Oberon

04-17-14, 11:05 AM

The old story of 'might makes right', I think most nations have dabbled in that from time to time. :03:

Jimbuna

04-17-14, 12:36 PM

Britain never did :nope:

http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/6305/liaranimatedanimationli.gif

mapuc

04-17-14, 12:48 PM

What states were those?

Kazakhstan, Ukraine, Belarus, oops forgot what the fourth country was. Was something with dova

Markus

Jimbuna

04-17-14, 12:49 PM

Moldova

mapuc

04-17-14, 01:06 PM

Moldova

It was Moldova.

These four countries is for Putin to take and there will be no reaction from the West.

Markus

Betonov

04-17-14, 01:29 PM

nikimcbee

04-17-14, 01:37 PM

Well...if we're talking about restoring old borders... :hmmm:

http://home.btconnect.com/eniac/Empire/Graphics/THE%20British%20Empire.jpg

You can have Florida and we'll throw in kali-fornia Steed.

04-17-14, 01:49 PM

my co-worker is from Moldova.

he's actually not very anxious about the Russians. When Moldova gained independence the country was robbed from within and thinks that the Russians will bring in some capital. Like in the good old days

That is how it usually works , people may have the opinions but the economical issues take over at the end of the day.
Will see how it works out in Ukraine , the current situation is not doing any good for ukrainian economy which had been weak even before it all began.

Jimbuna

04-17-14, 02:44 PM

Rest assured, Russia will do what is best for Russia.

TarJak

04-17-14, 03:21 PM

And Putin will do what is best for Putin.

Skybird

04-17-14, 03:48 PM

l smell something fishy here.

http://thinkprogress.org/world/2014/04/17/3428041/someone-is-ordering-eastern-ukraines-jews-to-register-with-separatist-group/

I say its a plot by the Western-Ukraine right wingers, Kiev and or Svoboda. Svoboda's leaders have repeatedly offended and defamed Jews in the past.

This counters the above link:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/17/jews-in-east-ukraine-are-being-threatened-but-by-whom.html

Putin knows that internationally he would not win anything by making such a stupid propaganda move. Svoboda's leaders however were retarded enough to intimidate a radio moderator they did not like in front of running cameras and recording it, until he signed his resignation, then abducted him over the night and beat him up.

The West must not like Putin's doings. But why the West thinks it must like the current Kiev gang any more when it is not any less underhanded than Putin, but even more stupid, escapes me. I'm sorry for the European tax money that the EU has transferred or will transfer soon to Kiev. I'm sorry for every single cent of it.

On a sidenote, Snowden today payed a part of the bill he owes to Putin for giving him shelter. He did not like it, I'm certain, the question and answer were too obviously staged and prepared in advance, but where else could Snowden have gone back then? In case of distress the devil eats flies. I hope he finds an alternative place that does not get him assassinated or kidnapped and brought to the US, and frees him of the need of accepting to get abused for propaganda stunts like this, he deserved something much better for what he did.

Skybird

04-18-14, 04:50 AM

Tango589

04-18-14, 05:34 AM

Well...if we're talking about restoring old borders... :hmmm:

http://home.btconnect.com/eniac/Empire/Graphics/THE%20British%20Empire.jpg
I'm not entirely sure we'd want it back. Too big, too expensive, and who's to say we could make any better job of governing these places than they do? Hell, our govt.can't even keep one small damp island in a far corner of Europe on an even keel. Also, we would rather not have to look after Tarjak, Cybermat47 and the rest of that motley crew again!:-?

Jimbuna

04-18-14, 05:56 AM

^ Our prisons are full, we need more real estate and Australia would do nicely, after all it has previously been tried and tested :)

Oberon

04-18-14, 05:57 AM

I'm not entirely sure we'd want it back. Too big, too expensive, and who's to say we could make any better job of governing these places than they do? Hell, our govt.can't even keep one small damp island in a far corner of Europe on an even keel. Also, we would rather not have to look after Tarjak, Cybermat47 and the rest of that motley crew again!:-?

I must admit, the whole $17t of debt isn't that appealing when you look at the Thirteen Colonies... :hmmm: And the less said about 'Rhodesia' the better...

Oberon

04-18-14, 06:07 AM

Western wishful thinkers celebrate yesterday's diplomatic "success" of having the Russians agreeing to disarm illegal bandits, to use a Russian official's terms. Sanctions worked, they conclude, Russia feels the sting of financial loss.

Two things to say on that. First, Putin can afford to promise or support that demand for disarming illegal bandits, since the separatists will not so easily allow to get disarmed, and since it is not defined by the Russians whom they see as "illegal forces", they are free to spare separatists form this description. Therefore, any attempt by the Kiev gang to disarm the separatists nevertheless can and will lead to Russian reactions, mostly in the hidden, that support the separatists. It mjhst still not end in the East separating from the West. But the main objectives for the Kremlin already have been achieved: the Crimea is Russia's, the Ukraine will not turn NATO, it will remain internally weak and divided and prone to Russian influence and unable to become a staging area of strategic threats on Russia's border, and the Russian population in the East will have been able to reduce Kiev's power over them anyway.

Whatever happens next in the East: for Putin it already is not the main objective but a bonus exceeding objectives. Considering the need to financially maintain the Eastern Ukraine if it splits form Kiev, I am not certain that the Russians really want it to join the federation. I'm 50:50 divided over that assessment.

Poor Western diplomats. Sense of realism is so hard to obtain.

Thank God Superobama is preparing more Visa refusals for Russian top staff. That will teach 'em. :yeah:

And what exactly are they to do?

The problem is that there is only a certain level of sanctions they can take without it backfiring on them, and in particular Europe. This was pretty inevitable, as it gives Putin his objectives and lets the western powers save face by making it look like they have persuaded Putin to back down.
It's all about de-escalating without making it look like any side has lost, however the question is whether Putin still has control over the 'pro-Russians' in Ukraine and if he does whether he is willing to use that.

This was always going to be Russias game, Ukraine is not a NATO member so there's only so much NATO nations can get involved in it, I think most NATO nations knew that their options were extremely limited from the start, and in a way, Russias aggressive actions might actually benefit NATO by encouraging nations still on the fence, like the Czech Republic and Slovakia, as well as Finland and Sweden, to join NATO and band together in the face of the 'Russian menace'. It also gives western militaries a good card to play against de-militarisation post-Afghanistan, and keeps Eastern Europe in the pro-NATO, pro-EU camp in a time when the EU is looking increasingly shaky and NATO has been primarily involved in the Middle East.

Of course, the downside is that we've now got to reconvert all our military gear back to fighting a war in Europe after spending ten years converting it to fighting one in the Middle East... :/\\!!

BossMark

04-20-14, 03:22 AM

Putin's been secretly funnelling tea, crumpets, and doilies to the Ukrainian rebels.

I fear he's trying to instigate a civil war.

Skybird

04-20-14, 06:03 AM

And what exactly are they to do?
There is no reason to assume the Russians do not know where NATO's red lines are, so just to shut up and stay away from the gang in Kiev as well would be sufficiently beneficial.

Of course, the downside is that we've now got to reconvert all our military gear back to fighting a war in Europe after spending ten years converting it to fighting one in the Middle East... :/\\!!
Thank God then, the future of Steal Beasts Pro seems to be safe, then. I was starting to worry, with all the shifting of military attentions to low intensity and asymmetrical wars. :88)

Jimbuna

04-20-14, 09:09 AM

Do I detect a hint of sarcastic humour Sky? :)

Skybird

04-20-14, 09:36 AM

No... :D I just miss the cold war. Politics were predictable and more stable back then. :ping:

TarJak

04-20-14, 04:17 PM

Cough... Korea....Cough...Vietnam...Cough...Malaya...Cough. ..Hungary...Afghanistan...Morocco, Algeria, Egypt, Israel, Cuba, Lebanon, Angola, Congo, Romania, etc. etc. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_related_to_the_Cold_War

Yeah much more stable. :nope:

Skybird

04-20-14, 06:24 PM

Still, relations between the two big powers were more predictable, and each side knew when to pull back and when not trying to press in the other side's backyard. The Russians tried it once on Cuba, and never again. The Americans never tried to establoish themselves in one of the USSR's European satellites, like they tried in the Ukraine these days, did in fact by pushing NATO eastward, and t5rying to get a stro9ng own foothold in the Caucasus region (Georgia). Afria and SE Asia where not really relevant side areans. The loss in Vietnam in no way was a strategic defeat and damage to the US than the later war in Iraq 2003 and the notorious misperception of the ME situation(s) in the past couple of decades.

BTW, my reply to Jim was meant as a joke, but maybe German humour indeed is... difficult... But the original joke that I copied it from I have stolen from Craig's third Bond-movie anyway. :D That makes your quarrel an issue with the British, I think. :woot:

mapuc

04-20-14, 06:28 PM

A friend posted this on FB.

http://www.pakalertpress.com/2014/04/18/russia-announces-decoupling-trade-from-dollar/

Don't know how this is going to effect the American economy

Markus

Skybird

04-20-14, 07:11 PM

Interesting news outlet, mapuc, at least that is the first impression. Neve rheard of it, but investugating the site via your link gave me plenty of interesting stories. I have set up another link from them in the tax-thread.

TarJak

04-22-14, 06:02 PM

Looks like the tensions will be ratcheting up a bit more...
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-23/ukraine-president-relaunches-military-operation-against-rebels/5405250

Jimbuna

04-23-14, 06:28 AM

About 600 US troops are going to Poland and three Baltic states Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia to take part in military exercises.

That's it then...game set and match :)

Dread Knot

04-23-14, 06:46 AM

Looks like the tensions will be ratcheting up a bit more...

That's it then...game set and match :)

We'll be teaching them Army tennis? :D

That's about all 600 divided among four nations will be good for.

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/army/sports/w-tennis/auto_bsi/9851498.jpeg

mapuc

04-23-14, 11:26 AM

Been searching for an English link to an Swedish article, I couldn't find it

So here's the Swedish article translated through Google Translate

"Russia sharpens rhetoric

An attack on Russian citizens is a
attack on Russia. said Russian
Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov today
to the news site Russia Today.

Lavrov also said that Russia will
strike back if the Russian people
interests are threatened. According to Lavrov, there are
no reason not to believe
U.S. drives the development in Ukraine.

Lavrov pointed out that U.S. Vice President
Joe Biden visits Kiev while
Ukraine's government decided "restart"
the military campaign against the pro-Russian
separatists in the east of the country"

Markus

Tribesman

04-23-14, 01:03 PM

A friend posted this on FB.

I like it.
It's got the Illuminati, FEMA consentration camps and of course CHEMTRAILS:yeah:

Oberon

04-23-14, 01:20 PM

NATO jets have been scrambled to intercept and escort 'Russian bomber planes' in the North Sea. Aircraft from Denmark, Holland and the UK were involved.

Catfish

04-23-14, 02:20 PM

This is my own old post 573, from this thread :D

" ...
It is about the harbours Sevastopol and Tatus and how the west tried to capture them,

it is about a new stock exchange in St. Petersburg, where oil and gas are now being traded in Rubel, and Yueang. It is about breaking a monopoly.

Whoever has tried to trade this in anything else than Dollars, ran into ... problems ..."

... and ended up on the US rogue state list. But Russia is not Venezuela or Iran :hmmm:

BossMark

04-23-14, 02:32 PM

I see the U.S. will provide financial aid to Ukraine if the leaders confront corruption.

Because if anything stops corruption, it's bribing someone to stop corruption.

nikimcbee

04-23-14, 02:36 PM

No... :D I just miss the cold war. Politics were predictable and more stable back then. :ping:

Are you John Kerry or are you quoting Kerry.:hmmm::haha:

Skybird

04-23-14, 04:53 PM

I quote from this scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltXhvkGCzbA

Fantastic movie in the series, one of the very very best.

Skybird

04-23-14, 05:00 PM

I see the U.S. will provide financial aid to Ukraine if the leaders confront corruption.

Because if anything stops corruption, it's bribing someone to stop corruption.

:haha:

"The same procedure as last year, Miss Sophie?"

"The same procedure like every year, James!"

Hawk66

04-24-14, 02:29 AM

No... :D I just miss the cold war. Politics were predictable and more stable back then. :ping:

I think chances are not low that you get a Cold War 2.0 setting, this time with different borders and players.

Sweden wants to spend more money on defense (especially buying new planes and submarines), Russia plays more games (the friendly visit of the Bear ;) and approaching (http://augengeradeaus.net/2014/04/die-russen-vor-der-haustuer/) U.K waters with a DDG and so on....some indicators, I think.

It's time to rethink if the European forces should not put more emphasize on national defense....

The FAZ writes also that Putin is preparing the Russians for its new 'isolated' role. Priorities seem to be clear.

Oberon

04-24-14, 08:55 AM

The key factor is which way America wants to lean, it can't focus on Russia and China at the same time. Current indicators lean towards it wanting to focus on China, but European forces too weak and decentralised to deal with Russia without US assistance. Catch-22.

Meanwhile in Ukraine:

Footage from operations in Slavyansk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOKshLaiKqE

Russian military forces mobilising and starting drills near the Ukrainian border 'in response to Ukrainian escalation' according to Russian defence minister:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4b8zYOhXzg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WnHDc3tWU8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W0FUGW8oBg

Videos are unconfirmed but indicated to be taking place around the area of Novoshakhtinsk.

The attack on Slavyansk has currently been halted due to the Russia mobilisation.

The original plan for Sloviansk today was to recapture the town from separatists, including all government buildings they had taken over, a senior security official told the Kyiv Post. The operation, however, has been halted for the moment as the government is reformulating the plan based on their latest intelligence from the eastern border, the official said.

Jimbuna

04-24-14, 01:14 PM

"latest intelligence from the eastern border" being key.

Mittelwaechter

04-24-14, 04:58 PM

Look behind the curtain: http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/04/23/putins-dilemma/

Oberon

04-25-14, 07:56 AM

A Ukrainian Mi-8 has allegedly been hit in its fuel tank with an RPG whilst taking off at Kramatorsk and has exploded, the pilot managed to jump to safety. The 'Kramatorsk self-defence force' has claimed that they targeted the helicopter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9SauG3-23o

Meanwhile, at the Ukraine/Russian border, Russian forces on exercise have advanced to within one kilometer of the border.

Dread Knot

04-25-14, 08:09 AM

Well, Standard and Poors downgraded Russia's currency rating to a notch just above junk bond status today. What is there left to lose?

Goodbye Mr. Bonds.

http://d3646cffwz49i9.cloudfront.net/cdn/farfuture/XKtE3vyG2CBgJrtZLyowlZ43O12tLSnlucZYcNAjtok/mtime:1378414049/sites/default/files/styles/article_hero/public/articles/07182013_Putin_Blofeld_article.jpg?itok=mt3sMPEw

Oberon

04-25-14, 09:44 AM

:haha: :up:

Meanwhile, a translation of some leaflets dropped by Ukranian aircraft yesterday:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BmEVlh_CQAA9gtm.png:large

HunterICX

04-25-14, 10:01 AM

Meanwhile, at the Ukraine/Russian border, Russian forces on exercise have advanced to within one kilometer of the border.

You mean these :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MP8HlXYRa4

Betonov

04-25-14, 10:45 AM

I think the entire Slovene army is considered a platoon in russian terms :o

Oberon

04-25-14, 11:48 AM

You mean these :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MP8HlXYRa4

US seaboards, tomorrow morning - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuwtNDkHch0

Jimbuna

04-25-14, 11:52 AM

Meanwhile, a translation of some leaflets dropped by Ukranian aircraft yesterday:

Are they ligit?

Oberon

04-25-14, 12:11 PM

Are they ligit?

AFAIK

http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/486428363-ukrainian-helicopter-drops-leaflets-as-it-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=X7WJLa88Cweo9HktRLaNXniIzMB1x%2Fuuc%2BkxpSUZ31Bt h0AjOrLz9sxY6BIin12A

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/04/24/these-anti-russian-leaflets-are-being-dropped-from-helicopters-over-eastern-ukraine/

Jimbuna

04-25-14, 12:19 PM

AFAIK

http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/486428363-ukrainian-helicopter-drops-leaflets-as-it-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=X7WJLa88Cweo9HktRLaNXniIzMB1x%2Fuuc%2BkxpSUZ31Bt h0AjOrLz9sxY6BIin12A

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/04/24/these-anti-russian-leaflets-are-being-dropped-from-helicopters-over-eastern-ukraine/

Rgr that...and now the effect of sanctions may begin to have a noticeable effect.

Credit ratings agency Standard & Poor's has cut Russia's rating to one notch above "junk" status.

The move comes as foreign investors continue to take money out of the country amid tensions over the situation in Ukraine.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27159423

nikimcbee

04-25-14, 03:02 PM

Curious why it's in Russian and not Ukrainian?

So, at what point should the West intervene? (if at all) If Eastern Ukraine joins:doh: Russia, do you think they will make a move on Western Ukraine?

That's going to make one nasty civil war (if it goes to that). I guess this is really going to test Ukrainian nationalism vs Russian cultural ties.
Time will tell...

Betonov

04-25-14, 03:29 PM

US seaboards, tomorrow morning - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuwtNDkHch0

Don't forget Seattle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnTn1LSG9Zo

nikimcbee

04-25-14, 04:04 PM

Don't forget Seattle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnTn1LSG9Zo

If they were to invade Seattle now, they'd be too stoned to care.

Oberon

04-25-14, 04:30 PM

Don't forget Seattle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnTn1LSG9Zo

New York:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffWa4332Dj4

Somewhere in the Mid-West:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxamzMUFvZ8

Catfish

04-25-14, 04:38 PM

How about invading Detroit.
I hear the town is decaying .. maybe they can build Volgas or Zil limousines there, to help the US economy :-?

Oberon

04-25-14, 04:46 PM

How about invading Detroit.
I hear the town is decaying .. maybe they can build Volgas or Zil limousines there, to help the US economy :-?

They're Russians, not morons. :O: Not even America can occupy Detroit.

Dread Knot

04-25-14, 04:51 PM

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/10/10cb130f7b7c3d13079c6699b34cd43d654ef7e3fb9b1fe824 6cdbbde409bc21.jpg

August

04-25-14, 04:53 PM

They're Russians, not morons. :O: Not even America can occupy Detroit.

As Moe Sizlak says:
http://img.fark.net/images/cache/300/A/AX/fark_AXWnBITzVEh7XTYSTzGCQxXS8dk.jpg?t=USoa5wGGiWn sv85QIDuZ3A&f=1398657600

"Hey, lay off Detroit. Them people is going through Mad Max times"

nikimcbee

04-25-14, 08:15 PM

I wonder if Russia is going to make a move to annex everything east of the Dnepr?... with the crown jewel of Kiev.:hmmm:

...and by annex, I mean, suddenly there are popular elections and everybody wants to join Russia.

Sailor Steve

04-25-14, 09:42 PM

How about invading Detroit.

Not even America can occupy Detroit.
Oh! Ow! Why do you twist my arm this way? You're forcing me to do it again!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynY2begPzoM

Jimbuna

04-26-14, 06:29 AM

http://s29.postimg.org/i2573wo13/image.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

Oberon

04-26-14, 11:49 AM

Catfish

04-27-14, 03:53 AM

There is no annexion, in the Ukraine.

This is in german, but it explains all - especially why and how the media report about the Ukraine, an Russia in general.

They try to bend the public opinion in an unbelievable an unprofessional manner that equals this infamous "embedded reporting", and try to present all what happens in a cold war black and white fashion, good and evil, and generally take the listening people for fools. At least in Garmany there is now an uprising against this propaganda and "truthmaking":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ossG2_Ioltw&feature=em-subs_digest

There have also been excuses in the german media, for direct and obvious lies :hmmm:

What Russia (! not alone Putin) does is perfectly understandable, and the EU (and the US) certainly knew what would happen, with the EU-Ukraine "treaty". Not that Putin were a democrat, or Russia (already) a democracy. But what we see and hear in the media is purest cold war bulls...

There is also a disappointment of what the US does, from the wars to torture, Guantanamo, drones, not to forget the NSA blahblah. But especially people in the US seem to confuse critic of the US, as "anti-americanism". We love you, but we are concerned about many things lately.
:yep:

Tribesman

04-27-14, 05:00 AM

There is no annexion, in the Ukraine.

That's an interesting view.
Sevastopol and Crimea were part of the sovereign territory of Ukraine, Ukraines territory is according to documents signed by Russia inviolable and indivisible, it is to be respected within its established borders and remain as a whole within its national borders.
Taking territory through force or the threat of force from one country and making it part of another country is annexation.
Russia took these Ukrainian regions and declared them as Russian federal subjects

What Russia (! not alone Putin) does is perfectly understandable, and the EU (and the US) certainly knew what would happen, with the EU-Ukraine "treaty". Not that Putin were a democrat, or Russia (already) a democracy. But what we see and hear in the media is purest cold war bulls...

There is also a disappointment of what the US does, from the wars to torture, Guantanamo, drones, not to forget the NSA blahblah. But especially people in the US seem to confuse critic of the US, as "anti-americanism". We love you, but we are concerned about many things lately.

That's a pile of crap, annexation is annexation. Your excuses don't stand up and pointing out the blah blah faults of what the US or EU does in no way justifies the Russian position.
If something is wrong then it is wrong no matter which country does it.

Catfish

04-27-14, 05:21 AM

That's an interesting view.

Because you sure will not read this in the phased-in media. Did anyone even bother to read the treaty, that should have tied the Ukraine to "the West" ?

Sevastopol and Crimea were part of the sovereign territory of Ukraine, Ukraines territory is according to documents signed by Russia inviolable and indivisible, it is to be respected within its established borders and remain as a whole within its national borders.It is indeed being respected, by Russia. The Crimea region and the east of the Ukraine is populated by more than 60 percent russian-speaking (and russian minded, as a nationality) people.

There was a referendum (swept aside by the western media), and the harsh truth is most of the people there voted for going to Russia, democratically. It were indeed the ukrainian soldiers, that tried to hinder people going to the polling stations. This is what most of the riots were about.

Apart from bigmouthing and holding a manoeuver on the russian side, Russia did nothing to invade or annex, but what they did was indeed making it hard for ukrainian soldiers to make the referendum impossible by force, which was their intention.

Taking territory through force or the threat of force from one country and making it part of another country is annexation.
Russia took these Ukrainian regions and declared them as Russian federal subjects Whether a govenment allows its population to join another nation or country, or if it likes it, is another question. Would the US government allow Texas to be an independent state ? Would they allow elections ?

And that is why there is no annexation. You are wrong, but it is exactly what the media want you to believe.
The russian-speaking majority decided by themselves, in a democratic act, to join Russia. But is is by no way a military act or annexation.
Which, again, is hard to swallow since the glorious EU generously "invited" the Ukraine, and got a "no" in return.

The title of this thread is wrong. There never was a "huge pro-EU rally gripping the Ukraine". The government tried to sell it as such, and maybe there was a huge rally, but it soon showed it was not the will of most of the people.

Skybird

04-27-14, 06:02 AM

About the stupidity of merely opportunistic diplomatic babbling.

http://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article127344085/Diplomatie-braucht-klar-definierte-Machtansprueche.html

Vague formulations and the inability and unwillingness of especially the Western countries to show up with the means and the strength and power to cover the promises made in vaguely hinting political declarations with solid in-the-world protection, have a major responsibility for today's diplomatic "treaties" not being worth the paper they are written on. Where once I would have agreed that diplokacy is needed, I see it today as infantile opportunistic babbling that tries to replace the reality of deeds with the airwaves of words. That is because especially the Europeans have replaced military will, power and potency, with the art of twisting words until everybody cna interprete everything into iot - and calling that a solid fundament then.

When promises get twisted and bend, when announcements get shifted in meanign back and forthg, and when "left" suddenly is interpreted to also mean "right", then one cannot complain if one is not being trusted anymore, becasue is behaving unpredictable and untrustworthy, even more, the other side gets an increasing feelijnhg that it must be on guard agaisnt such a master of opportunistic drivel.

Haven't I said right this ten days ago after Western clowns enthusiastically waved a worthless as well as pointless piece of paper with "Kiev treaty" written on it?

Dummschwätzer. Schwätz schwätz schwätz schwätz. Hauptsache die Kinnlade wackelt. Und wenn man auch den größten Mist und den größen Schwachsinn faselt. - Nicht wahr, Herr Oberlehrer Steinmeier?

A hot air blower he is.The security guarantees given to the Ukraine in 1993 (? or 94?) in return for the Ukraine giving up nuclear weapons, also were this kind of meaningless babbling. The West should have known that it is stupid to give such guarantees if the West lacks power and determination to honour them in case it is needed. The bigger stupidity already was to give such guarantees over a highly unstable, artificial and potentially failed new state like the Ukraine.

That the failure of the West to do serious, deed-covered diplomacy, is being registered in other crisis hotspots as well, the same author of the above article has argued here:

http://freie.welt.de/2014/03/31/nach-der-ukraine-israel-kann-keinen-internationalen-garantien-trauen/

Mittelwaechter

04-27-14, 07:24 AM

@ Catfish

:up:

Tribesman

04-27-14, 08:14 AM

Because you sure will not read this in the phased-in media. Really?
Why is that comment seemingly always made by people who don't look.

Did anyone even bother to read the treaty, that should have tied the Ukraine to "the West" ?
Do you mean this...http://eeas.europa.eu/ukraine/assoagreement/assoagreement-2013_en.htm ?
No I have never heard of it, the phased in media obviously didn't inform me of its existence.
So could you point out which articles in it you object to as you seem to have a problem with what it says.

It is indeed being respected, by Russia Complete and utter bollox.
In fact that is so much bollox you now cannot be taken seriously in any way whatsoever.

The Crimea region and the east of the Ukraine is populated by more than 60 percent russian-speaking (and russian minded, as a nationality) people.
Completely irrelevant.
Australia is populated largely by people of British decent, it has no bearing at all in claims over territory.
Unless of course you are perhaps suggesting that Turkey can annex parts of Germany? It makes as much sense as you just did.

There was a referendum Under what provision of Ukrainian law was the referendum held?

Whether a govenment allows its population to join another nation or country, or if it likes it, is another question. No, that is a question concerning annexation, you said there was no annexation.

And that is why there is no annexation. You don't understand the words you use:down:

Apart from bigmouthing and holding a manoeuver on the russian side, Russia did nothing to invade or annex So apart from the threat of violence and military manoeuvers to reinforce the threat of violence Russia did nothing:doh:

The russian-speaking majority decided by themselves, in a democratic act, to join Russia. "democratic act":har::har::har::har::har:
Like I said you can no longer be taken seriously at all.
Its a waste of time asking if you understand why this move breaches both the constitution and the Ukraine/russia agreements.

Which, again, is hard to swallow since the glorious EU generously "invited" the Ukraine, and got a "no" in return.
What is hard to swallow is the tripe you are spouting.

What is clear is that you and several others have allowed your hostility to the EU/US/NATO to leave you open to swallowing wholesale the crap from the opposing side.
A sensible person would instead filter the crap spouted by both sides and reject most of it as complete bollox.
You seem unable to do so and instead simply regurgitate one sides crap.

Catfish

04-27-14, 11:17 AM

If the people in Australia signed a referendum they wanted to be part of England, and held elections, and it would come out that roughly 70 percent are FOR this, and England agreed to take back Australia, would this be an "annexation" ?

Where exactly is the military excursion into the east Ukraine, by Russia?

B.t.w.:
" ... A day after the New York Times published a front-page report purporting to show the involvement of Russian Special Forces in protests in east Ukraine, its report, titled “Photos Link Masked Men in East Ukraine to Russia (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/21/world/europe/photos-link-masked-men-in-east-ukraine-to-russia.html?_r=0),” has been exposed as a blatant fabrication.

The Times printed low-resolution pictures of fighters—allegedly wearing Russian insignia while in Georgia, and then later as protesters in east Ukraine—asserting they were the same men, thus proving the existence of an armed Russian intervention in Ukraine.

It was based on a crude trick first noted by a commenter on a link posted on Reddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/23k8g2/photos_link_masked_men_in_east_ukraine_to_russia/cgxynj5). The photos in the Times were down-sampled versions of higher-resolution images circulating online, which show that the men in the different pictures are in fact not the same."

" ... In fact, the Times has worked to mislead its readers, uncritically presenting concocted photos delivered by its contacts in the State Department.
Washington, as it passed the pictures on to the Times, knew very well that they did not constitute evidence of anything, but were simply a new propaganda point supporting its as-yet unsubstantiated accusations of Russian involvement in Ukraine. ..."

Also here:
http://williambowles.info/2014/04/23/global-media-promote-new-york-times-propaganda-photos-on-ukraine-by-alex-lantier/

Or, to put it bluntly, they lied.

A sensible person would instead filter the crap spouted by both sides and reject most of it as complete bollox.
You seem unable to do so and instead simply regurgitate one sides crap. What i see is that you have your opinion made by the truthmakers, and will not look behind the scenes. So what you tell me to do, you probably should do yourself, for once.

Tribesman

04-27-14, 01:18 PM

If the people in Australia signed a referendum they wanted to be part of England, and held elections, and it would come out that roughly 70 percent are FOR this, and England agreed to take back Australia, would this be an "annexation" ?

Read what was written.
Nice try though, but you fail on a massive scale.
The people of Ukraine didn't have a referendum did they. Neither did they hold elections. Ukraine agreed to nothing did it.
So if you take all your conditionals , make them positive, add a lot more conditionals, make them all positive, then you can say it isn't an "annexation" in Australia btw the first conditional would involve a very little teeny weeny thing like rewriting constitutions and voting on the new document before anything else can follow :yep:
But you cannot do that with Ukraine as even your limited conditionals are instantly negative and that is a matter of undisputable fact.

Where exactly is the military excursion into the east Ukraine, by Russia?

Wow that's amazing.
Read what was written.
Then point out what exactly you think you are addressing?

B.t.w.:............
Or, to put it bluntly, they lied.

wow stunning stuff.
you really have opened my eyes, I never realised they lied.
When I said filter the crap both sides were spouting I clearly meant dismiss the lies one side spews and swallow the crap the other side is dishing up:har:
Pointing out the bollox said by one side does not make the other sides bollox which you are repeating any less bolloxy in nature.

What i see is that you have your opinion made by the truthmakers, and will not look behind the scenes. So what you tell me to do, you probably should do yourself, for once.
Young man, your fail has assumed epic proportions.
Well done.

Oberon

04-27-14, 01:21 PM

http://pickyrunner.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/dog-chasing-tail-o.gif

XabbaRus

04-27-14, 02:16 PM

Hmmm so you uncritically accept everything that the BBC tells you. Catfish has a good point. They as in Obama and his cronies are running around pointing that Russia is breaking all the rules but ignoring that the current Ukrainian government is illegitimate being founded ina violent over throw of an elected government. But hey this lot are anti Russian and the previous guy wasn't. Also those photos had actually been on the BBC site a couple of weeks before they were being used as evidence of Russian troops on the ground.

Catfish

04-27-14, 03:02 PM

^ forget it Xabba, the whole case has become a propaganda war like in WW1.

It is all about "I want to believe" :shifty:

mapuc

04-27-14, 03:20 PM

- We have received huge mount of critics from viewer and others(forgot the name) that we are reporting from the Crimea crisis with to much pro-West, pro-EU and pro-USA and something more, which I didn't get the hang of

This was said by the anchor man one evening in the 21 news at TV2NEWS

He continued...We try to be so neutral as we can we send reports from Russian side and from our side.

I myself try to find a balance...which even this can be difficult..what is the truth and what is not.

Markus

August

04-27-14, 03:48 PM

Hmmm so you uncritically accept everything that the BBC tells you. Catfish has a good point. They as in Obama and his cronies are running around pointing that Russia is breaking all the rules but ignoring that the current Ukrainian government is illegitimate being founded ina violent over throw of an elected government.

What should happen to a government that ordered or tolerated mass sniper attacks on protesters? UN supervised elections in a few years once the opposition has been wiped out?

The way I see it, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

Am I wrong?

Tribesman

04-27-14, 03:52 PM

Hmmm so you uncritically accept everything that the BBC tells you.
What on earth gives you that impression?
Are you having problems with the English language?
I would really like you to point out which words gave you that impression as it would appear to be simply an idea you have invented yourself with no foundation in fact at all.

Catfish has a good point.
Errrrr...no he hasn't.
He might have a slight point if he could follow, but he hasn't.

They as in Obama and his cronies are running around pointing that Russia is breaking all the rules but ignoring that the current Ukrainian government is illegitimate being founded ina violent over throw of an elected government.
"They" eh?
So which "they" is "they" and how am I part of "they" considering what I have written.
Oh sorry, I forgot you have problems reading what is written.:yep:

But here is a conundrum for ya. How is the separatist movement any more legitimate than the Ukrainian "government"?
Its a pretty important question if you want to try to legitimise the seperatists and their actions.
If you are unable to do so then you have no argument to make on that count.
The problem you and catfish have is that you are spewing one sided bollox, you justify it by saying the other side is talking bollox.
That does not justify your arguments at all.
When faced with someone saying both sides are talking bollox your only response is to attribute their views to the opposite side to that which you support.
Sorry to break it to ya, but there is absolutely no logic in your approach:down:

^ forget it Xabba, the whole case has become a propaganda war like in WW1.

It is all about "I want to believe" :shifty:
Yes Catfish, and you are being a prime example of it.
As I mentioned earlier, you can not be taken seriously as your views are so far warped to one side over the other that you are now entirely lacking any real perspective.

Skybird

04-27-14, 04:13 PM

What should happen to a government that ordered or tolerated mass sniper attacks on protesters? UN supervised elections in a few years once the opposition has been wiped out?

You take as granted what not only is unproven so far, but is unlikely. Indices are such that it were snipers within buildings held by the oppsoition at that time that opened the shooting frenzy that left dozens killed. Recordings of radio comms showed that the Yanukovich snipers were pretty much confused when the firing started, and did not know what was going on.

The most likely scenario to me is that it were snipers under command by the fascist Svododa who opened fire, to increase the death toll and thus provoke a reaction by the West as well as heating up the mood on the Maidan. pretty much the same kind of underhanded cynical cheating that Shaakashvili tried in Georgia in order to provoke NATO waging war against Russia - have you learned nothing from that, or have you just already forgotten again? It is questionable that Yanukovich's snipers were able to sneak into the buildings that were controlled by the opposition. Also, many civilian witnesses on the Maidan until today refuse Kiev's "report" :haha: that wanted to opportunistically explain the events the way it would serve Kiev's interests best.

The most logical and simple explanation is that it were "agent provocateurs" from the opposition, most likely Svoboda scum, who freely took up positions in opposition-held buildings and then opened the shooting frenzy. Mind you that the gang ruling in Kiev now (at least trying to rule something :haha:) is anything but innocent or harmless, but is formed up by names having ranks in the demimonde, people close to dubious oligarchs, and fascist-extremist Svoboda. If you think these gangsters would shy away from sacrificing some worthless civilians to support their drive for power, only because your government wants these thugs in place in order to piss the Russians, then you better think twice. The phrase from the cold war "We know he is a bloody bastard but he is our bloody bastard" was formed in American language usage. ;)

Oberon

04-27-14, 05:56 PM

To be honest, both governments, Yanukovich and whatever has replaced him, were corrupted and would be willing to use force on civilians.
A revolution is not a sure fire guarantee of a better government, I have said this time and again to people who have wistfully called for a revolution in their own country, thinking that it will make all the bad things go away.

Tribesman, Catfish, Skybird, give it a rest, we all know what you think about this, and all you're doing is just throwing the same arguments at each other and chasing your tails like the dog in the gif I posted earlier.

August

04-27-14, 06:38 PM

The most likely scenario to me is that it were snipers under command by the fascist Svododa who opened fire

Pravda means Truth right Comrade? :03:

TarJak

04-27-14, 09:07 PM

Tribesman

04-28-14, 01:11 AM

Tribesman, Catfish, Skybird, give it a rest, we all know what you think about this,
How so?
XabbaRus would seem to prove that is definitely not the case.
Catfish does a very good job of proving it too, plus he has yet to show what parts of the proposed treaty he finds so objectionable so we can't know what he really thinks about it, though I suspect that he doesn't know himself and is just parroting something he was fed via Moscow.

Skybird

04-28-14, 05:02 AM

Pravda means Truth right Comrade? :03:
As far as EU blablablabla representative Cathrine Ashton and Estonian foreign minister Utrams Paet are listed as two of Pravda's employees, yes. They confirmed the findings I refer to in a leaked telephone call they held.

Pravda also has taken over German investigative TV magazinbe "Monitor" running it's own - sorry: Pravda's - researches and coming to the same conclusion. That magazine quoted 2 and a half weeks ago some members of the 12-heads Ukrainian investigation team of the state attorney in Kiev who investigated the shootings, and who insisted that the findings of their investigations are opposite to the claims made by the state attorney during the international press conference. In other words: Kiev lied, and still hides the original report.

CNN and NBC also referred to the story, but cut it very short, because it is not the kind of news that America wants to believe in, and the White House runs a policy of no longer inviting and feeding journalists anymore who ask the wrong questions, and too persistently. Obviously Pravda's grab still has not reached them - or the WH is either paying more or is more intimidating than Pravda. :88)

HunterICX

04-28-14, 05:20 AM

What should happen to a government that ordered or tolerated mass sniper attacks on protesters?

whoever shot first that's a debate that can be as long as this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iduPxon1AKA

I do not believe it's some plot by some fascist faction or some utter nonesense like that started to shoot to make the other side looks bad.

The protest was going on for some time, tension rises and you just need a couple of nutjobs that light the fire followed by chaos. You can bet your ass that one side of the media takes advantage of it and they could care less figuring out who started first as long it's enough drama for your news bulletin which is easy with the unarmed protesters caught in between.

I have said this time and again to people who have wistfully called for a revolution in their own country, thinking that it will make all the bad things go away.

You'd expect people to learn something from History :hmm2:

Jimbuna

04-28-14, 05:22 AM

But that's the GT way isn't it? :D

Best it stays in GT and doesn't spill into other forum areas.

Oberon

05-02-14, 07:05 PM

Heavy fighting leaves dozens dead and more wounded in Odessa, Slovyansk and Kramatorsk.

Alledged footage from Kramatorsk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk0zkA4JcUk

August

05-02-14, 10:29 PM

Heavy fighting leaves dozens dead and more wounded in Odessa, Slovyansk and Kramatorsk.

Alledged footage from Kramatorsk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk0zkA4JcUk

If it is then it's of a bunch of guys shooting up into the air. I've been to parties that looked like that in the dark. :)

Skybird

05-03-14, 04:25 AM

Not just in quantity but also in"quality" things have dramatically worsened. In Odessa pro-Russian activists were locked in buildings and burnt to death, with the governor of the province hailing it as a "neutralization or terrorism".

Torturing people to death like this and celebrating it, is not just fighting or "conflict" anymore. Bitter, pitch-black hate now takes over. Stories like this do not get forgotten or forgiven easily.

What we see now is the "Yugoslavization" of the conflict, and it will become more cruel and barbaric now.

If that is to be avoided, then the only solution seems to be now to not only accept but to encourage Moscow to take control of the complete Ukraine. The sooner, the better.

After yesterday's gruesome events I started to think if maybe the Ukraine should not just get split, because then the West would be expected to give support to a Western half of the "country" with such corrupted leadership and organised crime that any alliance with that scum would put the West to shame. I start to think now that maybe the best and most logical solution would be if Moscow indeed just picks up the whole Ukraine and makes it part of the Russian federation again. In the end, Kiew itself is a pillar of historic Russian identity-forming, any splitting of th euikraine sound slike a temporary improvisation anyway. The attempt by the West and especially the US to isolate and punish Moscow, is stupid, dilettantish, bigot and morally presumptuous . Not one European nickle and not one American dime is worth to be sunk into the Ukrainian bottomless pit. Let the Russians do it. They want it much more than we ever should want it anyway - so let them shoulder the bills. thta way we can even "harm" them without them being able to retaliate.

Worth to be known: US banks have given Russia credits worth around 32 or 34 billion, or 35. But European banks, especially German, French and Austrian banks, have given them 280 billion in credits. If Moscow decides to retaliate for sanctions by running all gas and oil deals not in dollar anymore and banning dollar-based trading completely, also no longer honouring its credit obligations but keeping the money as compensation, the losses and damages to Europe would be around ten times as big as for America. Next consider that Eurpoe does much more trade volume with Russia, than America does (especially Europe economic powerhouse Germany), and that finally Europe relies signfiicantly on Russian gas - somethinggn that cannot be changed within just a couple of years, you can reduce the German share from one third to one quarter within 6-8 years - say the most optimistic projections, for other European nations it would be much less reductions possible.

Then you know why it is so easy for Washington to demand to play tough game with Moscow - it has little at risk. That Washington is not shy to line up with criminal regimes if it serves its geopolitical strategies, is nothing new. But the shockwaves from any Russian retaliation would not need to be absorbed by America - but Europe. Something that McCain comfortably forgot to mention in his recent attack against Germany.

kranz

05-03-14, 05:55 AM

Not just in quantity but also in"quality" things have dramatically worsened. In Odessa pro-Russian activists were locked
:har:
They are 'terrorists'.
and the rest: tl;dr.

tit for tat, as they say:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/31/ukrainian-protester-kidnapped-tortured-kiev-bulatov
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25977113
more:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-crisis-two-bodies-found-brutally-tortured-in-slaviansk-says-president-oleksander-turchinov-9275542.html

and a few more recent cases to which I can't find a link in English.

Didn't see skybird posting about the guys above - is he biased and the mods let him do his usual propaganda here?

Jimbuna

05-03-14, 06:43 AM

Much more of this and Putin will probably act and some might say justifiably so.

CCIP

05-03-14, 09:22 AM

Having 0 support for Putin over Crimea etc., I still have to say that what's being down by the current Ukrainian government is pretty terrible. By all reports I've seen, what's going on in places like Slavyansk and Kramatorsk right now cannot be called an anti-terrorist operation, but rather it bears all the marks of a punitive expedition. No plans have been given to regular civilians on how to get out of fighting or what to do in this situation, and by accounts that I've seen, weapons being used (like unguided rockets fired from helicopters) are not exactly precision munitions that would minimize risk to civilians. Rather, it appears to me that the Ukrainian government is treating everyone as a potential separatist collaborator and trying to scare them into submission. That is not a legitimate tactic and, by the looks of it, is far worse than what Yanukovich had been accused of.

And then there is Odessa which is basically uncontrolled and nearly random chaos that spilled out without so much as proper interference by authorities.

In my eyes, the current Ukrainian interim government has lost all legitimacy int he last 48 hours or so. What they're doing is not compatible with international rule of law and I really want the West to condemn what they're doing. Sadly, they seem to be getting a pat on the back instead. Mind you, I don't view that as giving legitimacy to separatists, let alone Mr. Putin & co., but it is all very troubling and unworthy of anything but a strong rebuke.

Tribesman

05-03-14, 10:48 AM

Not just in quantity but also in"quality" things have dramatically worsened. In Odessa pro-Russian activists were locked in buildings and burnt to death, with the governor of the province hailing it as a "neutralization or terrorism".

Conflict should be conducted without rules, without niceties and with as much barbarity as is required to achieve the desired result.
Those are your views, so it looks like your complaints are hypocrisy.

Torturing people to death like this and celebrating it, is not just fighting or "conflict" anymore. Bitter, pitch-black hate now takes over. Stories like this do not get forgotten or forgiven easily.

Good point, well it would be a good point if you changed the words "anymore" and "now".
You seem to be creating history from a blank sheet instead of actual history.

If that is to be avoided, then the only solution seems to be now to not only accept but to encourage Moscow to take control of the complete Ukraine. The sooner, the better.

History proves that Moscow is no different, in fact history proves that Moscow is very nasty and very brutal in matters such as this, by backing one bunch of idiots over the other bunch of idiots you are just showing you have little balance, in fact by backing a bunch of idiots with a long track record of exactly what you claim you want to avoid you are showing that you have no balance at all and that your views are warped beyond any semblance of reality or hint of rational thought.
Your words show you to be, as well as a hypocrite, either a very naïve person or a completely unthinking person.:down:

Skybird

05-03-14, 05:49 PM

Much more of this and Putin will probably act and some might say justifiably so.
Maybe he will intervene for a reason not so much expected: because maybe he is loosing influence on the pro-Russian militias.

Onkel Neal

05-03-14, 09:55 PM

Man, Putin is neatly destroying a country, piece by piece. Hitler would be so proud.

CCIP

05-03-14, 11:36 PM

Why do you think it's Putin and not the country destroying itself?
If you look at the actual events and history of the Ukraine, this isn't exactly something that came out of nowhere.

Catfish

05-04-14, 06:35 AM

I am not sure at all what Putin is currently doing. What happens in Odessa is unclear, and now the provisional government in Kiew has begun to shoot at own citizens.

The recent media reports in Germany about Russia are the purest soviet agitation and propaganda by style, only this time it comes from the western media, and it is so ridiculously obvious.
The media anchorman of Germany's biggest TV company Mr Klaus Kleber is a member of the "Atlantik-Bruecke" or atlantic bridge; its head is the notorious Friedrich Merz, who is "a controversial person" to say at least, in Germany (from bribery and corruption scandals to blackmail).
You will seldom hear anything anti western (or pro russian likewise), from this group.
Mr Kleber from the ZDF already had to excuse himself about several 'glitches' as he called it, which were either "one-mindedly" researched, or proven plain wrong.

The EU-Ukraine association pact document is all nice and good economically, but some of its content is directed at the heart of the Ukraine, it promises in article 2 chapter 7 close military collaboration, or, for people who do not read between the lines, a military connection with the NATO. Whoever wrote this paper must have had the tearing apart of the Ukraine in mind, if he was not completely dumb (which is perfectly possible of course, when i see our politicians).

The eastern part of the Ukraine would never sign that, the western part only would because of the current provisional government, who's likewise current provisional president is considered to be a puppet of the West. Mr. Brennan, the head of the CIA, went to Kiew a few days ago. You can only imagine what it was about and what happens there, Russia does not have to actively do anything.

But if the Ukraine "goes west", the new borders of the NATO are 350 kilometers apart from Stalingrad, while an "anti Iran missile shield" is planned to be erected by the NATO in .. Poland. Maybe there is a secret plan to divert all iranian rockets over russian territory, before they change course for the west, because if not the position of this shield is completely ridiculous.
Has anyone thought about what Russia thinks about this.

If there can be any doubt of what the Ukraine thinks about itself or what it means for the people living there, you should google for Byzanz, the commitment to the third Rome (Kiew), and especially what "Rus" and Kiew means for Russia, straight back to the viking settlements back then.

P.S.:
A few german links:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMdbrgCy4T0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18tUv7kr5Xs
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantik-Br%C3%BCcke
https://morbusignorantia.wordpress.com/tag/atlantik-brucke/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWfmxpQ0vbg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcHQJG7_hTg
And last not least Ken Jebsen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uQslC2ToNc&feature=youtu.be
(Regarding Ken Jebsen there is a real movement of the established media to discredit him, they also do not shy away of calling him an anti-semite, while the real reason is of course a bit different. B.t.w. Jebsen is neither a Nazi nor anything politically "right", and has never said or published such crap. He is mostly neutral and shoots at all, while denying to take a side, politically. No wonder he is under attack.

Oberon

05-04-14, 07:06 AM

while an "anti Iran missile shield" is planned to be erected by the NATO in .. Poland.

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140330072931/degrassi/images/d/d2/False-dwight.gif

The giant Russian relations wrecking anti-missile plan was dropped when Obama took office. It's been replaced with SM-3 launchers, capable of shooting down short range ballistic missiles, not ICBMs.

In September 2009, President Obama announced plans to scrap plans for missile defense sites in East Europe, in favor of missile defense systems located on US Navy warships.[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-161_Standard_Missile_3#cite_note-26) On 18 September 2009, Russian Prime Minister Putin welcomed Obama's plans for missile defense which may include stationing American Aegis armed warships in the Black Sea.[26] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-161_Standard_Missile_3#cite_note-27)[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-161_Standard_Missile_3#cite_note-28) This deployment began to occur that same month, with the deployment of Aegis-equipped warships with the RIM-161 SM-3 missile system, which complements the Patriot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIM-104_Patriot) systems already deployed by American units

Catfish

05-04-14, 07:13 AM

Ah, diversion and desinformation.

This is a technical question. The reason they are being placed there, are the defense against iranian rockets.

Does that make sense for you.

Oberon

05-04-14, 07:57 AM

Ah, diversion and desinformation.

This is a technical question. The reason they are being placed there, are the defense against iranian rockets.

Does that make sense for you.

Well, SM-3s are not exactly going to shoot down Topol-Ms...

Tribesman

05-04-14, 08:00 AM

Ah, diversion and desinformation.

Does that make sense for you.
Yet since it is true what he wrote who is the one peddling disinformation?
It's you isn't it:yep:

This is a technical question.
Good.

The reason they are being placed there, are the defense against iranian rockets.

OK ignoring the fact that they are not being placed there, would they be of any use if they were?

Does that make sense for you.
Well lets see, I wonder.:hmmm:
If I was to look at a globe how much NATO territory would be covered if you drew some lines from the borders of Iran so they hit the borders of Poland.
If the resulting sector was a large chunk of NATO territory then it would make some sense, if they covered very little NATO territory they would make less sense.

So Catfish would you care to look at a globe before you carry on with your "technical" questions?

Onkel Neal

05-04-14, 08:39 AM

Why do you think it's Putin and not the country destroying itself?
If you look at the actual events and history of the Ukraine, this isn't exactly something that came out of nowhere.

Whenever a dictator is the head of state, he gets the credit. It's pretty clear that Putin has been engineering this civil war, from the takeover of Crimea, to the planting of "anti-government protesters" complete with advanced weaponry in Slovyansk, Kramatorsk , and other cities, to the mobilization of Russian troops just over the border "in the event of a threat to Russian speaking people in Eastern Ukraine". Where's the opposition in the Duma? Or the Russian press?

I won't argue that the history of Ukraine shows it is a mess, yeah. But I sure won't pretend that Russia is a democracy with a President, it's not. And since this is two former USSR republics, let them settle it. Europe (aside from Germany, possibly) certainly does not have the stomach to oppose Russia. If it were up to me, I would have enacted the most severe anti-trade sanctions possible and jammed them so far up Putin's wazoo that he would be burping rubles.

Funny thing: I haven't researched this but I heard someone say that when Ukraine handed over their nukes, it was under a US guarantee that their territorial sovereignty would not be violated. Is that true? Well, we know what US guarantees are worth.

Catfish

05-04-14, 09:40 AM

Well, SM-3s are not exactly going to shoot down Topol-Ms...

Ok, and sorry for my desinformation babble.

But:

"Deployment

In 2015, Aegis Ashore will be installed in Romania, as part of the PAA Phase II. This deployed capability will use Aegis BMD 5.0 CU and SM-3 Block IB to provide ballistic missile coverage of Southern Europe.

*In 2018, Aegis Ashore will be installed in Poland, as part of the PAA Phase III. This deployed capability will use Aegis BMD 5.1 and SM-3 Block IB and IIA to support defense of Northern Europe.

**Future capabilities

Engagement of longer range ballistic missiles

Enhanced terminal capability against short and medium range ballistic missiles ..."

yellow text marked by me, from http://www.mda.mil/system/aegis_ashore.html

1. ** (see above) Seems all it needs is an update, to shoot down larger ICBMs.
2. The reason for this was an iranian attack - or so they said. Has this changed?
3. Does it make sense to install it in Poland, at the border to Russia, when the AEGIS should shield Europe, against iranian rockets ? (Not even the AEGIS system defense site says that - see * above) In that case it could as well be placed near the North Pole. And who had the bright idea the iranians would at all target Poland - presumed they had missile of that range, presumed they had nuclear warheads, and presumed they would attack at all (and then just of all .. Poland?)
If it is to shield Europe against Iran, what about installing it in Greece, or Turkey ? Indeed, look at a map!
Certainly it seems, it is not against iranian missiles.

4. But if it is really against Russia (what i assume, in my naivity, and i guess even Poland sees it that way, and the US, and Russia), don't you think Russia might indeed be disturbed, a tiny bit.

The US and Russia still can kill each other a dozen times or more, nuclear-wise. If one country installs defense systems against ICBMs that work, don't you think the balance will become a bit .. unbalanced?
Will you allow Russia to build their AEGIS equivalent on the doorstep to the USA, for parity ?

CCIP

05-04-14, 09:44 AM

Yeah, but Neal, there's a whole other side to this. To suggest that there isn't a serious set of issues that the Russian-speaking east has is like saying the Confederacy during the US Civil War was just a bunch of rednecks bribed by wealthy, power-hungry slave owners. There are some very serious federalization and cultural issues there and while it's easy to buy into propaganda that this is all just Putin's game, the fact is that there are some very big problems that have made people - not just insignia-less troops, at that - take to the streets over this. Much like the west of the Ukraine had issues and took to the streets in Kiev a few weeks back, with similar results.
Trust me on this, I don't listen to Putin's awful propaganda on this and I don't buy the Russian story on this for a second, but my family has some very direct and personal connections throughout the Ukraine, particularly in the east. People are frightened and upset there right now, and not with Putin. Some very serious problems internal to Ukraine spanning decades got them to this point. I was the first to condemn the Crimea takeover, but what's going on here is a different and rather scary beast for a lot of people - and Putin is only making it worse.

Catfish

05-04-14, 10:02 AM

Hello Neal,

... It's pretty clear that Putin has been engineering this civil war, from the takeover of Crimea, to the planting of "anti-government protesters" complete with advanced weaponry in Slovyansk, Kramatorsk , and other cities, to the mobilization of Russian troops just over the border "in the event of a threat to Russian speaking people in Eastern Ukraine". Where's the opposition in the Duma? Or the Russian press?

One word: Evidence? I mean real evidence, not what The Times published:

https://reclaimourrepublic.wordpress.com/2014/04/25/video-nyt-fake-war-propaganda-in-ukraine-exposed-just-like-iraq-selling-ww3-kiev-military-op-goes-hot/

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/04/u-s-government-new-york-times-admit-lied-ukraine-russia.html

http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-fact-checking-kerry-bullying-bluster-and-big-lies/5379304

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/04/29/360586/us-caught-faking-russia-forces/

http://www.truthdig.com/avbooth/item/chris_hedges_in_ukraine_washington_uses_fake_evide nce_as_usual_20140428?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%253A+Truthdig%252FAVBooth+Truthd ig+%257C+A%252FV+Booth

+tons of links in german, but since we are on an english-speaking site..

You are being lied to about what happens as we are. Propaganda.

I agree Putin is not nice nor is he a normal president as we understand it, but he just took advantage of the Krim situation - the population voted itself out of the Ukraine, politically, itself. Putin did not even need a coup d'état or a military attack.
Did you read my post. Why do you think Brennan went to Kiew ?

With the planned NATO collaboration of the Ukraine in case it goes West, and the rocket shield(s) being installed all along Russia's borders, couldn't we at least agree that Putin and Russia might be concerned.

...someone say that when Ukraine handed over their nukes, it was under a US guarantee that their territorial sovereignty would not be violated. Is that true? ...

Nope:
http://opiniojuris.org/2014/02/28/russians-coming-russians-coming/

Oberon

05-04-14, 10:26 AM

http://www.reddit.com/live/3rgnbke2rai6hen7ciytwcxadi?t=t

Alex

05-04-14, 12:37 PM

Smells like that nonsense the Denver airport is as a whole (http://youtu.be/JjjIy1DO0gs) is making more sense these days. Smells like a 3rd world war is coming, created just to sweep away the actual crisis (bankers are so happy !) and to set up that so-called new world order. Had I heard of that 10 years ago, I wouldn't have believed it, but I would have said to myself "hey, good scenario !".

All those ukrainian atrocities remote-controlled by NATO are committed to counter what Russia has been able to do in Syria.
No matter what Putin will decide to do, things will go dramatic. On one hand he needs to avoid global chaos in the Middle East, on the other hand he needs to care about russian minorities asking for help in Ukraine, and on top of that he needs to take in consideration that threat that may well initiate an imminent war in Europe. The man is facing an impossible choice. Whatever Russia will do, things will get ugly.

Whatever is going to happen, there's no need to worry anyway.
While the united states of America did their best until now to push Russia through sanctions and provocations, Russia has been wise enough from the very-beginning, and chose deterrence through diplomacy and statesmanship, as well as some presence on the other side of the border.
If Russia intervenes in Ukraine, the situation will degenerate in a show of force in Europe, and Syria will be exposed to risks. If Russia chickens out, then Syria will stay without credible protection.
And everyone knows that Al Assad's fall is the crucial precondition for an israeli attack on Iran...

Actually, peace lies in the hands of Russia, completely. Russia is an ally of Israel, economically. But Russia is also an ally of Syria, and Iran. What's going to happen in the event of a zionist aggression ? Does Russia is going to declare war on Israel - and so on the united states of America and NATO ? All bets are off.

Damned ukrainian nazis in the West's pocket, let Slaviantsk be a new Stalingrad for them.

Skybird

05-04-14, 12:40 PM

Whenever a dictator is the head of state, he gets the credit. It's pretty clear that Putin has been engineering this civil war, from the takeover of Crimea, to the planting of "anti-government protesters" complete with advanced weaponry in Slovyansk, Kramatorsk , and other cities, to the mobilization of Russian troops just over the border "in the event of a threat to Russian speaking people in Eastern Ukraine".

The important question you do not ask: why he suddenly increased preparations for those events. Mind you, under the gas-princess Tymochenko the Ukraine was already dancing on his nose for many years. Aautumn last year - at that time Yanukovich started to waver regarding an opening towards the EU and NATO. I expect you to now say "They were a sovereign state, Mafia clan or not in control, they could decide to join whenever they want." But let me ask you one thing: if for example Mexico, as a sovereign failed state that it is, would indicate that it considers to become part of China and Chinese military would then sooner or later build bases and station military units in Mexico and ELINT and radar stations directly at your border - would you really dare to tell me that your government would let that happen? Don't even try, Neal, I would not believe you for even one second. Of course Washington would intervene with all means necessary to prevent that, no matter what.

Also remember the way the Russians were told NATO would not move eastward - and when it finally did arrive in Poland some years later and Russia protested about the breaking of promises, Washington just told them to not worry about what would not be Moscow's business.

And you are wondering, Neal? Cuba as a biggie, admitted. But the US intervened also over much smaller issues than now in the Ukraine: Panama, Honduras, San Salvador, Grenada.

Where's the opposition in the Duma? Or the Russian press?

Is that important on the geostrategical level? Russia is Russia. Let the Russians decide whether they worry about the Duma and press, or not. It's not our business. Mind you: Putin is extrfemnely popular inRussia, he already had the majority of people behind him before the crisis. Support became much bigger since then.

But I sure won't pretend that Russia is a democracy with a President, it's not.
Who in this forum ever said so? ;) I never said Russia is democratic, nor said anyone else, what I said is it that we must not care for that lack of democracy that much, since most Russians do not seem to care that much also, and that our interests with Russia are more regarding stability and predictability. It's Russia, not the Us or Germany. They must not want your system and your values. Some do want it, but they are a small minority even without a pistol held at their sleeves. .

And since this is two former USSR republics, let them settle it. Europe (aside from Germany, possibly) certainly does not have the stomach to oppose Russia. If it were up to me, I would have enacted the most severe anti-trade sanctions possible and jammed them so far up Putin's wazoo that he would be burping rubles.
That'S eay to say for a nation that has only a tiny fraction of Europe'S risks at stake. You boast, and we would need to swallow the blows. European financial ties and economic ties with Russia outclass yours. As I said in another posting already: US banks leased some 32 billions in credit to Russia, but European banks leased them credits nine times that much. Then there is the gas issue, it is unrerlatic to think thjat European dependency on Russian gas could be rteduces within the next lets say ten years to bring the Russian share in the European energy mix 8currently orughly one third) down to the lowest fixing there ever has been: one quarter. And that preparation would additonally consume additional billions, that vis money to be spend withion a very short time. That is very much money for very tiny effects.

For Germany, Russia is extremely important a partner in trade. Germany is the economic and financial powerhouse of the Eurozone. If that trade suffers, it damages Germany, and if you damage Germany, then you damage the whole Eurozone even more, and when you damage the Eurozone even more - well, go figure.

Funny thing: I haven't researched this but I heard someone say that when Ukraine handed over their nukes, it was under a US guarantee that their territorial sovereignty would not be violated. Is that true? Well, we know what US guarantees are worth.

The Israelis are hearing you, they listen very carefully since Syria and the Ukraine to what Washington has to say on "guarantees".

The security guarantees for the respecting of territorial integrity of the Ukraine were true, guarantees were given by the US, France and/or Britain, and - Russia, the latter of course did so only under certain conditions that Russia claims to have been nullified by now. :D I don't recall whether Germany was involved as well, I think not.

Onkel Neal

05-04-14, 03:18 PM

:rock:Hello Neal,

One word: Evidence? I mean real evidence, not what The Times published:

https://reclaimourrepublic.wordpress.com/2014/04/25/video-nyt-fake-war-propaganda-in-ukraine-exposed-just-like-iraq-selling-ww3-kiev-military-op-goes-hot/

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/04/u-s-government-new-york-times-admit-lied-ukraine-russia.html

http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-fact-checking-kerry-bullying-bluster-and-big-lies/5379304

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/04/29/360586/us-caught-faking-russia-forces/

http://www.truthdig.com/avbooth/item/chris_hedges_in_ukraine_washington_uses_fake_evide nce_as_usual_20140428?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%253A+Truthdig%252FAVBooth+Truthd ig+%257C+A%252FV+Booth

+tons of links in german, but since we are on an english-speaking site..

You are being lied to about what happens as we are. Propaganda.

I agree Putin is not nice nor is he a normal president as we understand it, but he just took advantage of the Krim situation - the population voted itself out of the Ukraine, politically, itself. Putin did not even need a coup d'état or a military attack.
Did you read my post. Why do you think Brennan went to Kiew ?

With the planned NATO collaboration of the Ukraine in case it goes West, and the rocket shield(s) being installed all along Russia's borders, couldn't we at least agree that Putin and Russia might be concerned.

Nope:
http://opiniojuris.org/2014/02/28/russians-coming-russians-coming/

Evidence ? I have none, all I know it's what I read, just like most people. In glad you assume all I read is from one pov. But I do know this: there's a reason why all these small Iron Curtain states And former USSR republics want in NATO, And that reason is Russia. And we are seeing why.

August

05-04-14, 03:26 PM

Onkel Neal

05-04-14, 03:50 PM

And I don't mean to sound hateful to Russia, I've been there 4 times, but what we are witnessing is appalling.

Catfish

05-04-14, 04:01 PM

... there's a reason why all these small Iron Curtain states And former USSR republics want in NATO, And that reason is Russia. And we are seeing why.

I think the new Russia is different from the old Soviet Union, and i think those states you mentioned are afraid for not much reason - but i see your (and their) point. :yep:

Oberon

05-04-14, 04:05 PM

And that reason is Russia. And we are seeing why.

Indeed, much in the same way Castro wanted to ally to Russia and have nuclear weapons on Cuban soil. That resulted in a blockade, and the shift of NATO members steadily eastward post-1991 has resulted in Russia pushing back. If the situation were reversed, you can bet that NATO would be doing all it could to push back against Russian encroachment.

It's all spheres of influence, we have been walking in Russias backyard for the past decade and now he's come out with a gun to tell us to stop treading on the flowers.

Skybird

05-04-14, 04:08 PM

:rock:

Evidence ? I have none, all I know it's what I read, just like most people. In glad you assume all I read is from one pov. But I do know this: there's a reason why all these small Iron Curtain states And former USSR republics want in NATO, And that reason is Russia. And we are seeing why.

That is valid argument for some of those states only.

In case of Georgia, you had a criminal thug wanting to rule his own tyranny unbothered by the USSR, and so acted as if he were wearing the West's clothes so that the West should protect and support his tyranny, and dancing on Russia's nose should serve to unite public support behind him. It ended with georgian missile artillery starting to shell Gowergian civilians in their beds, thank you, nice leadership that, and so determined!

In case of the Ukraine, you had two criminal thugs doing turns, but establishing their regimes pretty much for the same motives like the thugs in Kiev do now. For Tymochenko and for the current gang now, NATO and EU should protect criminals and organised crime and even financially support them with Western citizens' taxes, so that their boss tyrants could run their own businesses and exploit their positions, and between these two regimes of criminals: for Yanukovich this function of getting foreign protection for his regime of exploiting the country should have been served by Russia.

Your explanation is valid for Poland and the Baltic states, however, maybe also the Czech Republic. But already with Romania it becomes blurry again.

Skybird

05-04-14, 04:26 PM

And I don't mean to sound hateful to Russia, I've been there 4 times, but what we are witnessing is appalling.

I absolutely believe that, I do not understand myself why people would want to live there, too (not talking landscapes and nature here). But that does not matter, what I think or what you think. They are driven by their motivations, not ours. It is fully sufficient that we realise that there are people who do want to prefer Russian rulership over european or American rulership.

You see, some months ago there was a 45 minute docu about Route 66. Most of that looked boring, some places were the known highlights, and some places, quite many to be honest, looked devastated and awful. Still, in the latter places there were people that got sensiblky interviewed, and who showed pride for the dirt hole they called their own, and said they loved to be in that country and that place inside it. I will never understand that, the sights were depressing and awful, really. But it does not matter. My miotives and what i think a civilised person could like and what not, do not count. What they felt for the place they were in is what counted.

Just to put it into relation. In Germany, we still have people celebrating the beautiful life in and the justice system of the GDR. But I have seen so many devastated, hopeless villages when we used to shuttle between Berlin West and West germany, and drove for hours on those fixed transit routes through East German countryside and Russian garrison villages. Still, some people, quite many actually, still are sad for the GDR gone, even if they only were some small bureaucrat only, or a border police officer, or a guy from the "Aufklärung". Maybe it is a case of cognitive dissonance, maybe not, it doer snot matter - it is uselss trying to convince them.

People are free not to want being like you/like us, you know. I think many Americans have big time difficulties to understand that, like many eurocrats as well. Maybe you people feel too much put into question when admitting that some people do not want to be like you/us, I don't know. But it is a reality. And no, that is not just because of envy or wanting to get free rides.

Skybird

05-04-14, 04:59 PM

A German interview with Vaclav Klaus, former president of the Czech Republic, on the Western trivialization of the causes for the Ukraine crisis and the stupid demonization of Russia, and Putin.

http://www.achgut.com/dadgdx/index.php/dadgd/article/vaclav_klaus_europa_ist_eine_postdemokratische_und _postpolitische_einrichtu

Due to his biography, one can safely say that Klaus is no traditional friend or defender of Russia, or Putin. Which makes parts of this interview even more surprising for some, maybe. To me, it just sounds reasonable and cool-minded.

CCIP

05-04-14, 07:44 PM

the Western trivialization of the causes for the Ukraine crisis and the stupid demonization of Russia, and Putin.

That is essentially what's going on here that offends me so much.

As for Putin, again, I have about -0 support for him, but he's an opportunist taking what's in front of him. I think it's way too optimistic to suggest that Russia, with it's over-complicated buraucracy where Putin can't even control some of his immediate subordinates, is capable of pulling off a plot that complex, covert and nefarous.

Skybird

05-05-14, 06:39 AM

CCIP,

in the interview I linked, Vaclav Klaus said he does not not have sympathies for Putin, but that he nevertheless deeply respects his professionalism in working and management, and that he is working a lot and always is top-prepared for any working meetings, informed to the smallest details. Klaus also indicated that he finds thew Western attempt to compare Putin with former Soviet leaders and Russia with the Sowvie tUnion and Putin wanting to reionstall a KGB-run regime, laughable. Says Klaus - he has had his experiences with living and being discriminated by the communist regime and the Russians, he really has no love for that kind of regime.

Klaus also said that culturally Russia and most of Europe are still so much closer than for example Europe and Central America, Africa or the ME, and that he doubts there is one European identity when there are already tremendous differences in mentality between a Western and a mediterranean European.

He tells a anecdote of his. When he spent three days in Kiev, he said about it this (I translate the German original):

"Kiev is European. Odessa is Russian, Jewish. Lemberg (Lwiw) is a middleeuropean city. Some days ago I talked to a Ukrainian female student in Prague, whose family came from from the region of the Western Ukraine that 80 years ago still was part of Czechoslovakia. This cultural descent and the memories of her parents and grandparents were her motivaiton to study in Prague. She currently is in great fear, for her two brothers must serve ion the Ukrainian army. And she told me that last summer for the first time in her life she was on the Crimean peninsula and that she really enjoyed her stay, because the Western Ukraine has neither great lakes nor a coastal shore. "It was very beautiful", she told me, "but I was surprised to learn that that the people there did not understand my Ukrainian language." People even took her as a Moldavian. This anecdote of this young student I find quite telling."

About his expereinces with Putin he said that he is pragmatic, well informed and well prepared, and that he works very much, but that he is less personal in conversation than Medweedew. He calls him a pragmatic, not an apriori politician.

Finally Klaus gave this anecdote, I translate again:

"Some days ago I talked to an old friend, who lives in germany since the Soviets marched into Czechoslovakia 1968. He is a shiny example for the trivialization (of Russia and the conflict now, Skybird), which I mentioned. Answering my question why he was asguing the way he did, he said that since 1968 he were strictly anti-Russian. I asked deeper and wanted to know : 'anti-Russian - or anti-communist, anti-Sovjet?' But he reinforced his answer: 'I am so anti-Russian that I even do not read the classical Russian literature of the second half of the 20th century.' Imagine this irrationality! Refusing to read Dostojewski or Tchechov because of events in 1968 reveals a confusion of mind and thinking that I cannot support."

That would be as if I would no longer listen to Tchaikovsky, Prokofiev, Rachmaninoff (or Wagner...).

Russia and Putin are not the only things the West constantly daydreams about and reaches misled conclusions. One does want Russia to do like one wanmts it to do because that would be ion the West power-political interests. But that there ar5e real, solid, substantial, existential needs that Russia must react to in the way it does - that nobody can imagine or dares to reflect over in the west, because it would question the wisdom of Western daydreaming.

It reminds me a bit of the Western daydreaming about Islam, the ME conflicts, paper money. These illusions being held up here are also coming at the cost of ignoring unwanted realities that despite their denial nevertheless are - real.

Dmitry Markov

05-05-14, 07:11 AM

I've been hesitating for a while - to post or not to post 'cause I'm more the reader than the writer.

Well ,let me be the voice from the other camp. Maybe I will give you another point of view. My language and style are far from being perfect and sometimes I may seem to be floundering in my own thoughts but nevertheless:

I was born in USSR and I am still sorry for it split.
Not because of it was a larger and more powerful state - but because of another spirit.
You see - Russia is now a capitalist state where everyone ( not excluding me) care for earning money and for creating better living conditions for oneself and one's family only. That's what we were doing since 1992.
It's normal - that's what all other individuals do all over the world.
But over the time it turned out that for most part of us that's not exactly the way we want to live - you see it's just not our national mentality.
In USSR times we thought the images in the song like Pink Floyd's "Time" or in Genesis's "Get em out by Friday" are some kind of horrors that exist in some other reality and could not concern us seriously. Now look - it's all around.
I don't want to tell that USSR was an Elven Kingdom - it wasn't of course.
Some things are still seem idiotic Like slogans about Party on the buildings ( which are now imposed by an advertising of Samsung, Apple etc - so on this part things haven't changed a lot).
You see - our way of thinking comes from our historical way of living - we used to live in villages not in individual households. It has obvious good and bad sides but that's how it is.
If you care not only for your household but for village as well, the village would help you in case of need. You know if you do something - you are proud that you helping all in your community to live better. And when it comes to one's last hour - he passes in peace because he knows he would be remembered for his efforts.
That's why being a constructor or serving in the Army was earning more respect in our society than being a lucky salesman for example.
For twenty years it seemed that a salesmen are on top 'cause you know girls prefer guys with money.
Now we understand that girls and money are not everything that makes us happy. We need to be remembered. To know that our efforts are not only for our pockets but for wellness of all our people.
We didn't support Putin that much because it seemed that he cares only for pockets of him and the ones around him. Everything was proving it as it seemed: they were selling the Army by hands of former Defence Minister Serdyukov, they were stealing a lot talking about national projects and never completing them, and so on.
Things become changing couple of years ago - it started with Serdyukov's dismiss and rebirth of army ( I remember happy officers celebrating this happening as a national holiday). Then Putin did what everybody wanted him to do - he forbid state officials to have actives and accounts abroad - and that were the points at which his ratings began to grow.
As for Ukraine - even before their civil war started... Look what their institute of state has achieved through twenty years: after USSR split they took best agricultural lands in Europe, population comparing with that of France, aviation industry, space industry, automobile industry, half of USSR's airforce and army and much more not to say about most advanced infrastructure in the whole USSR.
All their state can do with all that are revolutions every ten years, and no sign of any improving except for new condominiums for nouveau riches in Kiev.
And now they've got a civil war still saying on the one hand that "all our troubles are because of evil Putin and evil Russians" and on the other - slogans like "10000$ for Moscal" or " Moscals to the knives" " Bandera come and make an order".
No doubts when your authorities: 1) officially call you a "Moscal" or "Katzap", 2) tell you that you will earn half as much and pay twice as much because of their "European choice" , say that you haven't an option to be disagree because of 1) what would you choose knowing that you produce most part of national product and paying most part of taxes?

Sorry for bad English and being diffusive

Dmitry

Alex

05-05-14, 08:01 AM

You see - Russia is now a capitalist state where everyone ( not excluding me) care for earning money and for creating better living conditions for oneself and one's family only. That's what we were doing since 1992.
It's normal - that's what all other individuals do all over the world.
But over the time it turned out that for most part of us that's not exactly the way we want to live - you see it's just not our national mentality.
In USSR times we thought the images in the song like Pink Floyd's "Time" or in Genesis's "Get em out by Friday" are some kind of horrors that exist in some other reality and could not concern us seriously. Now look - it's all around.
I don't want to tell that USSR was an Elven Kingdom - it wasn't of course.
Some things are still seem idiotic Like slogans about Party on the buildings ( which are now imposed by an advertising of Samsung, Apple etc - so on this part things haven't changed a lot).
You see - our way of thinking comes from our historical way of living - we used to live in villages not in individual households. It has obvious good and bad sides but that's how it is.
If you care not only for your household but for village as well, the village would help you in case of need. You know if you do something - you are proud that you helping all in your community to live better. And when it comes to one's last hour - he passes in peace because he knows he would be remembered for his efforts.
That's why being a constructor or serving in the Army was earning more respect in our society than being a lucky salesman for example.
For twenty years it seemed that a salesmen are on top 'cause you know girls prefer guys with money.
Now we understand that girls and money are not everything that makes us happy. We need to be remembered. To know that our efforts are not only for our pockets but for wellness of all our people.
Back to traditions, yep. :yep:
That western part of the world probably will need some time to join you on that way, but some of us stare at Russia with great interest since quite some time now, I'd even say a growing percentage of people in France express quite some admiration for Putin's reforming governance (economic modernisation of Russia) and those conservative values you've just been mentioning.

Best regards, and much respect !

CCIP

05-05-14, 08:28 AM

I don't think all Russians think that way, myself being the primary example. Stability, but at the cost of what? It's a flawed pattern of thinking that has led Russia into a pretty scary position - scary enough that I am in no way interested in coming back. And I am no noveau-riche type by any measure, just a traditional intelligentsia nerd from Piter, hardly a friend of consumer capitalism.

And the idea that Putin is somehow leaving capitalism and corrupt politics behind is an illusion - one easy to enforce given the systematic destruction of any free media in Russia, which only accelerated over the past year.

Ukraine's problem were with brooding nationalism (which encouaged exceptionalist thinking for a particular culture), over-centralization and lack of regard for regional and minority interests, combined with overwhelming corruption. Putin's course has always been in the same general direction, just with better PR funding and more teeth.

My simpler thought on this: Putin is a thug. Russia is effectively run by a cleptocratic junta, and certainly the opportunist approach to the Ukraine situation shows it in that light. No big conspiracy plot - very simple.

CCIP

05-05-14, 08:35 AM

And skybird: between my meagre German skills and google translation, I did manage to read that, thanks! I like that article, and have an immense respect for the man. This is true of a number of Czech and other eastern european intellectuals that stood up to the communist regimes and saw them topple - they share very little in common with many of today's right-wingers in that part of the world who built careers on scaremongering and Russophobia (among other phobias). There is a 3rd perspective in this conflict, and it's a pragmatic and understanding one - sadly, there's not a lot of people like Vaclav Klaus around these days. Much easier to buy into Western and Russian PR machines when they're sailing full-steam into sensationalist infotainment for the masses.

Onkel Neal

05-05-14, 05:45 PM