[WIP] IRAI (Intelligent Random AI)

[Dignan]

TDW,

Got an AI detection question for stock and IRAI.

Is the AI more likely to detect a moving scope (i.e. from wake splash) or is a moving scope the same as a still scope as far as the AI is concerned? I know AI distance to teh scope does matter but am wondering about movement.

Also still trying to figure out which file to alter to make that radio rod you installed go away or not raise so high. If wakes from periscopes and rods are indeed detectable then isn't it giving me away? :oThanks.

[TheDarkWraith]

TDW,

Got an AI detection question for stock and IRAI.

Is the AI more likely to detect a moving scope (i.e. from wake splash) or is a moving scope the same as a still scope as far as the AI is concerned? I know AI distance to teh scope does matter but am wondering about movement.

Also still trying to figure out which file to alter to make that radio rod you installed go away or not raise so high. If wakes from periscopes and rods are indeed detectable then isn't it giving me away? :oThanks.

Wake splash is cosmetic only

[StarTrekMike]

This is going to be a silly question but I just started using the mod and I really love the new level of difficulty, alas. I don't think I can go toe to toe with a destroyer anymore and hope to win, any chance that someone could give me a hint at what settings I should put the mod at to decrease the difficulty while still maintaining a sense of challenge?

Mike

[jwilliams]

This is going to be a silly question but I just started using the mod and I really love the new level of difficulty, alas. I don't think I can go toe to toe with a destroyer anymore and hope to win, any chance that someone could give me a hint at what settings I should put the mod at to decrease the difficulty while still maintaining a sense of challenge?

Mike


ATM, I am trying IRAI with these settings :-

# for non-merchants
VISUAL_DIFFICULTY_MIN = 85;
VISUAL_DIFFICULTY_MAX = 95;
HYDROPHONE_DIFFICULTY_MIN = 85;
HYDROPHONE_DIFFICULTY_MAX = 95;
RADAR_DIFFICULTY_MIN = 85;
RADAR_DIFFICULTY_MAX = 95;
SONAR_DIFFICULTY_MIN = 85;
SONAR_DIFFICULTY_MAX = 95;

[StarTrekMike]

do I have to remove the mod to change the settings or is there somewhere where I can change them in the games directory?

I hate to upset the mod soup I have going.

Mike

[jwilliams]

do I have to remove the mod to change the settings or is there somewhere where I can change them in the games directory?

I hate to upset the mod soup I have going.

Mike

If you dont want to uninstall the mods....

The location of the file is (on my system) :-

D:\Games\simulator\SH5\data\Scripts\AI\init.aix

You location will differ depending where you installed the game.

:salute:

[Dignan]

ATM, I am trying IRAI with these settings :-

# for non-merchants
VISUAL_DIFFICULTY_MIN = 85;
VISUAL_DIFFICULTY_MAX = 95;
HYDROPHONE_DIFFICULTY_MIN = 85;
HYDROPHONE_DIFFICULTY_MAX = 95;
RADAR_DIFFICULTY_MIN = 85;
RADAR_DIFFICULTY_MAX = 95;
SONAR_DIFFICULTY_MIN = 85;
SONAR_DIFFICULTY_MAX = 95;

These are the settings I use too. Going to play with these for a while longer but I might increase the difficulty just slightly.

[StarTrekMike]

Thanks for the help!

I am gonna try out the settings I see here and let you folks know how it works out.

though I was able to sneak into scapa flow and sink a Queen Elizabeth BB with the settings as TDW intended.

one of the most tense and fun moments in SH for me.


Mike

[Jaguar]

Thanks for the help!
I am gonna try out the settings I see here and let you folks know how it works out.
though I was able to sneak into scapa flow and sink a Queen Elizabeth BB with the settings as TDW intended.
one of the most tense and fun moments in SH for me.
Mike

Which reminds me I should pay a visit to Scapa before TDW implements mines and sub nets...

[stoianm]

A method to defit the TDW's Evil IRAI:D:

23) How to use ''HIT and RUN'' method in SH5 ==> Link (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1636925&postcount=51)

[Stormfly]

A method to defit the TDW's Evil IRAI:D:

23) How to use ''HIT and RUN'' method in SH5 ==> Link (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1636925&postcount=51)


you could also "sit" that out til the enemy runs out of deptcharges, i had a very immersive hunted session, over 3 hours and 6 dd´s, was nearly dead by dc damage and i thought allready that is the end... but than they decided to return to the convoy, together with creating a wide back / side covering screen preventing me to easyly go into a new attack position. After hardly beeing able shadowing the covering escorts duo to engine damages, they tryed to lure me away from the convoy, but i smelled this trick, couldnt belive that :haha:

[stoianm]

you could also "sit" that out til the enemy runs out of deptcharges, i had a very immersive hunted session, over 3 hours and 6 dd´s, was nearly dead by dc damage and i thought allready that is the end... but than they decided to return to the convoy, together with creating a wide back / side covering screen preventing me to easyly go into a new attack position. After hardly beeing able shadowing the covering escorts duo to engine damages, they tryed to lure me away from the convoy, but i smelled this trick, couldnt belive that :haha:
yes... that when you hunt convoys... but when you hunt capital ships or aircraft cariers the DDs will hunt you untill you will be dead if they will spot you... they have not a convoy to return back at it... and usually they have an HK with them... so if they spot you , then your chances to survive are ZERO:DL

[oscar19681]

you could also "sit" that out til the enemy runs out of deptcharges, i had a very immersive hunted session, over 3 hours and 6 dd´s, was nearly dead by dc damage and i thought allready that is the end... but than they decided to return to the convoy, together with creating a wide back / side covering screen preventing me to easyly go into a new attack position. After hardly beeing able shadowing the covering escorts duo to engine damages, they tryed to lure me away from the convoy, but i smelled this trick, couldnt belive that :haha:

How deep where you in the DC attack? As soon as i go under 150 meters the dc,s cant touch me anymore .

[d3vnu11]

You know the other day I witnessed a DD sailing in circles about 4KM away from me. Was that an old search tactic or something or just a bug ?
Kev

[Stormfly]

How deep where you in the DC attack? As soon as i go under 150 meters the dc,s cant touch me anymore .

there must be something wrong with your soup i guess, they hit me very good below 150 meters, they also throw DC´s infront of me if they detect my speed or just by guessing sometimes... maybe the current year is responsible for it ?

[Jaguar]

You know the other day I witnessed a DD sailing in circles about 4KM away from me. Was that an old search tactic or something or just a bug ?
Kev

Sometimes a bug shows its head: a DD will "lock" on you and stay there circling forever, no matter what you do . Save and reload game and the "lock" breaks .

[oscar19681]

there must be something wrong with your soup i guess, they hit me very good below 150 meters, they also throw DC´s infront of me if they detect my speed or just by guessing sometimes... maybe the current year is responsible for it ?

Could be its july 1941 , what year are you in?

[Stormfly]

Could be its july 1941 , what year are you in?

November 42

[Dignan]

Are the AI escorts able to detect depth soundings from your sub? There are times I want to know how much deeper I can go when escorts are around but I'm hesitant to hit that depth sounding button in case the escorts can hear that.

Had a good evasion experience last night. Attacked a very large convoy somewhere SE of Ireland and I was too slow to get out of dodge before all SIX destroyers came charging my way. For about 2 game hours I tried to evade these guys at a depth of about 130m. My battery was down to 25%, I had sustained some damage too. I ended up using the decoys in conjunction with ordering Flank Speed for about 10 seconds. I noticed they kept DCing the point where I let go of the decoy. They lost me after this at which point I sat almost on the bottom completely silent waiting for them to give up and return to their convoy. They eventually did and I carried on my merry way.
Are using decoys in this game "historice" or "realistic"?

Using IRAI difficulty settings of 85 low, 95 high

[Stormfly]

Are using decoys in this game "historice" or "realistic"?

Using IRAI difficulty settings of 85 low, 95 high

what i think is that the bold decoy is more a shild against asdic, it just created bubbles in the water to create a covering screen which stopped the asdic to hit the boat. I dont think it also created engine noise, and iam also not shure if the DD`s sonar crew was thinking that bubbles would be the enemy sub or simply "wtf, where is he gone", but for shure having a endless ammount of "bold pills" on board is unrelaistic it seams.

[Trevally.]

If you ask for depth under keel. Yes the DDs will hear your ping:yep:

[stoianm]

what i think is that the bold decoy is more a shild against asdic, it just created bubbles in the water to create a covering screen which stopped the asdic to hit the boat. I dont think it also created engine noise, and iam also not shure if the DD`s sonar crew was thinking that bubbles would be the enemy sub or simply "wtf, where is he gone", but for shure having a endless ammount of "bold pills" on board is unrelaistic it seams.
I think they are limited

[Vanilla]

what i think is that the bold decoy is more a shild against asdic, it just created bubbles in the water to create a covering screen which stopped the asdic to hit the boat. I dont think it also created engine noise, and iam also not shure if the DD`s sonar crew was thinking that bubbles would be the enemy sub or simply "wtf, where is he gone", but for shure having a endless ammount of "bold pills" on board is unrelaistic it seams.

My wild guess is that it would also shield engine noise to some extent if on the line between you and DD - bubbles change sound propagation pattern not only for ASDIC and there is also bubbles forming sound. But engine noise go not only in straight lines, hence complete muting could not be achieved of course.

But that's only my very wild guess.

[Jaguar]

The purpose of Bold (bubbles) is to create a signal equal to a sub in the enemy ASDIC screen. Later ASDIC operators figured out that of two signals, the one not moving was bold and the other the sub, so ze germans developed Sieglinde, similar to bold but moving at a speed of 6 knots.

Recently TDW released "Water_Disturbance" mod which, to simulate disturbances caused by DCs explosions, create a virtual bold decoy for each explosion (45 seconds).

It has great implications to evasion tactics, although I still have to figure out exactly what. Any suggestions?

Anyway, this later mod is a must have when using evil IRAI.

[TheBeast]

How deep where you in the DC attack? As soon as i go under 150 meters the dc,s cant touch me anymore .

Even if DC are only dropping to 100 meters and you are 150 meters, your boat should still have very severe shaking.
Explosion Shock Waves travel very far in water. Even your own Torpedo hitting a target at 1000 meters away should give your boat a very rough shake.

Check effects of "JD Realistic Depth Charge Damage and Shaking 1.0" MOD UBOAT DANCING (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXb-wuysl9o).
This MOD only effects the Boat. Not the Crew. Crew Animation and Crew Sounds still needs to be worked.
I have many years experience working with military grade High Explosives. and YES, big difference between civilian and military HE. I think this reaction to DC explosion is far more realistic then stock setting.

:oNOTE: if using "JD Realistic Depth Charge Damage and Shaking 1.0" MOD. DO NOT try to hide on botton. You will end up being bounce on the sea bed doing extra damage to your boat. I learned this the hard way.:oops:

[Sepp von Ch.]

Where can I downloadt this Realistic Depth Charge Damage and Shaking 1.0 mod? I use TheDarkWraith_DC_Water_Disturbances_v2_0_SH5 mod. Is the same?

[TheDarkWraith]

Where can I downloadt this Realistic Depth Charge Damage and Shaking 1.0 mod? I use TheDarkWraith_DC_Water_Disturbances_v2_0_SH5 mod. Is the same?

different. I've been playing around with this for the FX Update mod but haven't come to anything I like yet.

[TheBeast]

different. I've been playing around with this for the FX Update mod but haven't come to anything I like yet.

I am fairly sure that you will be able use "JD Realistic Depth Charge Damage and Shaking 1.0" or variation of it in your MODs with permission from Author. From past communications, he seems to be a good person.

Standard Barrel:
Explosion_Impulse 4000
range 200

Other Barrel:
Explosion_Impulse 5000
range 225

Where can I downloadt this Realistic Depth Charge Damage and Shaking 1.0 mod? I use TheDarkWraith_DC_Water_Disturbances_v2_0_SH5 mod. Is the same?


I sent a email to Author this morning requesting permission to post his MOD here at SubSim.com

[TheDarkWraith]

I am fairly sure that you will be able use "JD Realistic Depth Charge Damage and Shaking 1.0" or variation of it in your MODs with permission from Author. From past communications, he seems to be a good person.

Standard Barrel:
Explosion_Impulse 4000
range 200

Other Barrel:
Explosion_Impulse 5000
range 225




I sent a email to Author this morning requesting permission to post his MOD here at SubSim.com

The problem with the values he uses is the Impulse value. If the DC explodes too close to sub or ship it can cause the ship/sub to be blown clear into the air. Very unrealistic :nope:

[Sepp von Ch.]

I sent a email to Author this morning requesting permission to post his MOD here at SubSim.com


:up:

[TheBeast]

The problem with the values he uses is the Impulse value. If the DC explodes too close to sub or ship it can cause the ship/sub to be blown clear into the air. Very unrealistic :nope:
in SHIII/4 yes but not in SH5. The action/reaction from these values are different in SH5.
This sounds bad but it isn't. By requiring greater value for effect, that allow for far more control of what is happening.

Ducimus has far more knowlege about configuring Depth Charges then I do. Heck just about anyone has more knowlege on it then I do. I just looked at it for the first time the other day. I was looking for Animation and Sound triggers.

BTW, I "think" these triggers on located in the Baza files.

[TheDarkWraith]

in SHIII/4 yes but not in SH5. The action/reaction from these values are different in SH5.
This sounds bad but it isn't. By requiring greater value for effect, that allow for far more control of what is happening.

Ducimus has far more knowlege about configuring Depth Charges then I do. Heck just about anyone has more knowlege on it then I do. I just looked at it for the first time the other day. I was looking for Animation and Sound triggers.

BTW, I "think" these triggers on located in the Baza files.

The values for Impulse will blow a ship sky high, trust me. Even an impulse of 1500 will blow a PT Boat (the one I've been working on) to be blown sky high by a torpedo blast. Torpedo blast, DC, it doesn't matter they all have an impulse value.

[TheBeast]

The values for Impulse will blow a ship sky high, trust me. Even an impulse of 1500 will blow a PT Boat (the one I've been working on) to be blown sky high by a torpedo blast. Torpedo blast, DC, it doesn't matter they all have an impulse value.

The impulse values I posted were from that MOD and that is what I am using. I am not blown out of the water but my boat is moved around a bit but I would expect that, if a DC goes on near my boat.
When depth charge explodes close and above my boat I am pushed down about 5-10 meters in about 1 minute for 1 Depth Charge. That is not to far off being realistic.

[stoianm]

The purpose of Bold (bubbles) is to create a signal equal to a sub in the enemy ASDIC screen. Later ASDIC operators figured out that of two signals, the one not moving was bold and the other the sub, so ze germans developed Sieglinde, similar to bold but moving at a speed of 6 knots.

Recently TDW released "Water_Disturbance" mod which, to simulate disturbances caused by DCs explosions, create a virtual bold decoy for each explosion (45 seconds).

It has great implications to evasion tactics, although I still have to figure out exactly what. Any suggestions?

Anyway, this later mod is a must have when using evil IRAI.
You must to test in game by yourself... install the mod.. and play with map contact on... see after you release a decoy or when a depth charged is droped in water for how much time and what is the radius of the DDs sensors... they must be affected by these noise from underwater... try to use diferent speed when the underwater have noises and see the DDs radius... also diferent depths

[Budds]

The values for Impulse will blow a ship sky high, trust me. Even an impulse of 1500 will blow a PT Boat (the one I've been working on) to be blown sky high by a torpedo blast. Torpedo blast, DC, it doesn't matter they all have an impulse value.



Funny.....
I hit a Ship lastnight with two fish.
First was normal impact and explosion, but second hit broke the ship in half, and lifted the aft section about twenty feet into the air.
It remained there, hanging in mid air for about thirty seconds and then slowly settled into the water. ( I Had time to get Pics..lol )

Also....
The texture corruption thingy that I have seen others complain of has been sporatic with me.
Its not always there... in fact is pretty infrequent.
But I dont know how to get rid of it.
Sometimes it goes away by restarts.... other times I have to start a new campaign !

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1635248&postcount=1252

Any Thoughts.........

[TheBeast]

Funny.....
I hit a Ship lastnight with two fish.
First was normal impact and explosion, but second hit broke the ship in half, and lifted the aft section about twenty feet into the air.
It remained there, hanging in mid air for about thirty seconds and then slowly settled into the water. ( I Had time to get Pics..lol )

Also....
The texture corruption thingy that I have seen others complain of has been sporatic with me.
Its not always there... in fact is pretty infrequent.
But I dont know how to get rid of it.
Sometimes it goes away by restarts.... other times I have to start a new campaign !

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1635248&postcount=1252

Any Thoughts.........
Ship lifting out of water happens in Stock Game sometimes without any MODs installed. Maybe Ubi was working on some Critical Hit effect they never finished.

The graphics issue seen in your link are cause by User Error editng the TheDrakWraithUserOptions.py file. Conflicting Setting, Wrong Settings or Type-O. I know this because I have seen this many times myself.:oops:

[sirbum69]

Ship lifting out of water happens in Stock Game sometimes without any MODs installed. Maybe Ubi was working on some Critical Hit effect they never finished.

The graphics issue seen in your link are cause by User Error editng the TheDrakWraithUserOptions.py file. Conflicting Setting, Wrong Settings or Type-O.
nope not true...Those were my grafic settings and i hadnt changed a thing in the .py at that point...Those grafic problems were caused by MO...something in there became corrupted so i had to uninstall it and reinstall it....had to delete the file all togeatehr and redownload it.

[TheBeast]

nope not true...Those were my grafic settings and i hadnt changed a thing in the .py at that point...Those grafic problems were caused by MO...something in there became corrupted so i had to uninstall it and reinstall it....had to delete the file all togeatehr and redownload it.
So it wasn't "User Error" but still basically the same thing as the settings were wrong from currupted file(s).

[Budds]

Tried the memory switch... did not help me.
I use TDW's UI mod, not MO.... unloaded it, applied a Fresh copy of all TW's Files.... Still corrupt.

So how does it get corrupted ?
And in the past I have had the issue, "Just go away" and my previous settings returned in total... so it "Un-Corrupts" it self ?

Anyways..... Stock works as it should....
So I will continue to hunt a cure/work around as I am grounded to port until I get My UI back !

:hmmm:

[TheBeast]

Tried the memory switch... did not help me.
I use TDW's UI mod, not MO.... unloaded it, applied a Fresh copy of all TW's Files.... Still corrupt.

So how does it get corrupted ?
And in the past I have had the issue, "Just go away" and my previous settings returned in total... so it "Un-Corrupts" it self ?

Anyways..... Stock works as it should....
So I will continue to hunt a cure/work around as I am grounded to port until I get My UI back !

:hmmm:
File problems do not just go away "Un-Corrupt" on their own.:haha:

The problem you describe, appears to me, as a Memory Availability or Memory Usage Problem.

What is your Operating System?
Is your Operating System 32 bit or 64 bit?
How much Memory (RAM) do you have?
Did you run the BCDEDIT command using Administrator Security Privileges?
Did you reboot Computer after running the BCDEDIT command as Administrator?


@TheDarkWraith
- Anything else to check?

[sirbum69]

Thebeast is correct in that they dont just un-corrupt themselves...For me it was just deleteing MO all togeather and then reinstalling...

Course it also could have been my mod soup, the way i had installed certain mods...maybe i installed ones before or after others that shouldnt have been. And now i have them installed correctly...in order another words.

i just know i havnt had the problem for some time now. Maybe post how yo have your mods installed now and someone can tell you if you have them out of order. Maybe that will rectify the problem..

[Budds]

Well I Know corrupted files dont "Un-Corrupt" themselves...lol !
But point I was trying to make was that I have had instances where the UI does return to my former settings as tho the "Corruption" had never happened.
And the only thing I did was restart the sim from a save. ( granted it was several attempts to restart, not the first try.)

I could be wrong.....
But I suspect it is NOT a Memory issue, as the problem is to "Uniform" in its display. ( Always the same layout of ALL ui choices... Sh3 style, Sh4 style, and Sh5 Enhanced... all displayed at once.)

So the trail leads me to think, as was mentioned, to the TDW_user_option file as the source.
Something is triggering that messes with that file maybe ?
I have played for weeks and had no issue, then Bam !
And I believe it has only happened to me when I enter port, or am VERY near port... ie, the Icon to refit or end patrol is visable. and I save... then try to restart from there.
It has never happened to me during a patrol, only when a restart is attempted... or right after I hit the end patrol button and when the UI changes from me in the sub.... (Everything is fine.), to standing in the Sub Pen.... ( Every Icon and Button in the sim is visable... well you know what I mean.... the "Corruption". )

I believe I have had it occur when using Only TDW's UI mod, with a couple of the optional mods he supplies like Real Nav and such..... well now that I think of it.... I probably had TDW's FX, IRAI, and BRF 1.3 full... and of course TDW's "Fix" for BRF applied as well.

Anyways............
Will continue to track it to see if I can.....
1.) Consistanly reproduce the issue at will.
2.) Identify the culprit.

Thanks for the attentin and help guys.
:salute:

[TheDarkWraith]

try this:

- edit your \Documents\sh5\data\cfg\main.cfg and make the following section look exactly like below (ensure to remove the leading ;s):

[DEVELOPING]
Modding=Yes
MenuEditor=No
DebugScripts=Yes

Save the file.
Before starting the game run the DbgView application found in my UIs mod \data\Applications folder.

Save the output of DbgView to file and send it to me, along with ship's journal and pictures of any popups that appear when the error happens again.

[jwilliams]

I found that editing the TDWuseroptions.py file (the one in silent hunter 5's data folder with the mod still activated) caused this type of corruption.

Deactivating and editing the TDWuseroptions.py (the one in the silent hunter 5's mod folder) and then re-enabling the mod works fine for me.

[Budds]

Thanks for your attention in this matter........

I am trying to finish a campaign, so I have not upgraded to "Current" UI version.
I am still using 6_3_7, and DbgView does not appear to be present.
( Should it Be there ? )

Also....
I have 6_4_0 ready to add when I finish this camp.... and DbgView IS present there..... I can use that one in 6_3_7 ?
Or.....
Should I just goto 6_4_0 in mid Camp and fear no problems ?

Again...... Thanks............
:salute:

[sirbum69]

im fairly certain you can change to his 6.4 mid campaign...Only time you cant change mid campain is for the mega mods that change the campaign..

Or something like icebergs because it adds it in...

With his ui you can even add it mid partrol...

[ddrgn]

im fairly certain you can change to his 6.4 mid campaign...Only time you cant change mid campain is for the mega mods that change the campaign..

Or something like icebergs because it adds it in...

With his ui you can even add it mid partrol...

Not true, anything that makes changes to the playable submarines specifications, like UHS, IRAI or the Depth Keeping Problem Fix, will most likely cause problems if you install mid patrol.... One symptom would be that your sub lies low in the water while surfaced......

[TheDarkWraith]

you can run the DbgView application anytime. It's a stand-alone application that isn't tied to the game at all.

[THE_MASK]

Any thoughts on implementing harbor asdic ?
http://indicatorloops.com/hda.htm

[TheDarkWraith]

Any thoughts on implementing harbor asdic ?
http://indicatorloops.com/hda.htm

I have an idea of how to make it work. But was this used? Is it historically accurate? :hmmm:

[THE_MASK]

I have an idea of how to make it work. But was this used? Is it historically accurate? :hmmm: Just about every allied harbor .
3 things the mod needs to work .
Able to put in harbours on the sea floor .
Undetected by the sub .
Notifies nearby ships .

[TheDarkWraith]

Just about every allied harbor .
3 things the mod needs to work .
Able to put in harbours on the sea floor .
Undetected by the sub .
Notifies nearby ships .

Whatever I would make would have a sonar and hydrophone on it. The only way you could detect it by sub would be via the circles on the maps. And yes it would notify nearby ships if you were detected by it.

[Zedi]

There is a problem with the ships whom patrol ports. They dont react only if they visually spot you. You can blow up the whole harbour and they still cant find you because they dont have any search rule. They just slow down or worst.. stop and get stuck.

Now IRAI implemented some very clever rules for the convoy escorts where is a command center, but those ships whom just loop in a patrol pattern around the port, they have no engagement rules. Maybe you can bring some life in these ships because only mines are not enough for the port defense.

[TheDarkWraith]

There is a problem with the ships whom patrol ports. They dont react only if they visually spot you. You can blow up the whole harbour and they still cant find you because they dont have any search rule. They just slow down or worst.. stop and get stuck.

Now IRAI implemented some very clever rules for the convoy escorts where is a command center, but those ships whom just loop in a patrol pattern around the port, they have no engagement rules. Maybe you can bring some life in these ships because only mines are not enough for the port defense.

give me a port to go into to see this. I need to look at the AI in game to see what's going on. Tell me what mods I need installed to see the port and these ships.

[Zedi]

A campaign, Scapa or any other port in the campaign.
Or use the test mod I sent you, there is a tanker at the entrance of port Grimsby, SE England. Try a long shot and hit the ship and you will see the patrols slow down for a couple of minutes, then return to their patrol route. Or.. they just stop and get stuck, you can even surface as they cannot move anymore. This happens most frequently in Scapa where is a lot of movement.

[Jaguar]

Not very clever behaviour from artic convoy escorts (42, feb/mar): against a convoy with usually 10-12 escorts (btw can this be adressed? it´s far from realistic:shifty:) from a distance about 7-8 km, on surface, just fired torpedoes (very difficult shot) and go away at max speed. As soon as escorts detects torpedoes they went right after sub (probably because it makes a hell of noise at max), never caught me though. Latter I discovered that DDs chase me at 14 kts, my sub does 17...

It works every time, half of the totally unrealistic strong escort stay with the convoy (clever IRAI rule), half go after torpedoes source, but at 14kts they will get naught.

I think the correct speed would be more like max for a few kilometers or something alike.

[TheDarkWraith]

Not very clever behaviour from artic convoy escorts (42, feb/mar): against a convoy with usually 10-12 escorts (btw can this be adressed? it´s far from realistic:shifty:) from a distance about 7-8 km, on surface, just fired torpedoes (very difficult shot) and go away at max speed. As soon as escorts detects torpedoes they went right after sub (probably because it makes a hell of noise at max), never caught me though. Latter I discovered that DDs chase me at 14 kts, my sub does 17...

It works every time, half of the totally unrealistic strong escort stay with the convoy (clever IRAI rule), half go after torpedoes source, but at 14kts they will get naught.

I think the correct speed would be more like max for a few kilometers or something alike.

I'll send you v0.0.32 as of now and you can test and see if the same thing happens :yep:

[Jaguar]

I'll send you v0.0.32 as of now and you can test and see if the same thing happens :yep:
:up:

[mr chris]

Hmm link on OP is not working. Its says the file is not available at this time. Are the an other links?

[Jaguar]

I'll send you v0.0.32 as of now and you can test and see if the same thing happens :yep:

Report:

Used the same tactics already mentioned twice against the same artic convoy (May, 42), but this time with a diferent outcome. The escorts now go at flank speed (20-35kts) to where torpedoes were fired and bunch up there like flies in a manure pile. Still got out unscathed because, knowing something like that might occur, I fired from 9-10km and turned tail very fast.
But a much worst thing happened, as soon as the DDs became aware of the torpedoes the entire convoy changed speed! In both cases it went from 10kts to 5 kts. Dang! There goes my fire solution (in both cases automatic to ensure a hit).

Out of 10 torpedoes fired, 2 prematures detonations and just one hit. All in all: awesome :rock:.

Another nice feature is that sometimes a DD dettached itself and did a sweep near my shadowing sub.

TDW, two things for consideration:
1 - There was about 20+ DDs on this particular convoy, around 12 of them went to the exactly place torpedoes were fired and stayed around a tiny area. I guess, given the numbers, they could have searched a wider area.

2 - IMO there are a way too many escorts to each given convoy. I don´t know if it can be changed, but a more likely figure would be 6/10 escorts (DDs, DEs, sloops) and not as many as merchants. At least not in the close escort group.
(I´m going to look on this subject and report latter).


Tactics against this new evil IRAI (so far): fire FaT torpedoes to countermeasure the probable speed change and do it at night. You`ve got to get closer than with regular G7as, about 7-5 km, and must get out very fast (leave G7e in port). If DDs got near dive, change direction, go deep, slow down and pray. (EDIT: forgot to mention stoianm has a good tutorial about it, but he does it while submerged, not sure how it will work against this IRAI version though...).

[Zedi]

Report:

...
2 - IMO there are a way too many escorts to each given convoy. I don´t know if it can be changed, but a more likely figure would be 6/10 escorts (DDs, DEs, sloops) and not as many as merchants. At least not in the close escort group.
(I´m going to look on this subject and report latter).
...

Agree and I will reduce the numbers to almost half in the upcoming mod with the mines and stuff, depending on the convoy size. This is on my to do list.

[Jaguar]

Agree and I will reduce the numbers to almost half in the upcoming mod with the mines and stuff, depending on the convoy size. This is on my to do list.

Great news! If you need help defining those numbers just ask.

[Zedi]

Great news! If you need help defining those numbers just ask.

Any advice and suggestion is welcome.

[TheBeast]

Any advice and suggestion is welcome.

GWX Team used historical Mine Deployment Maps by date and Convoy Configuration for SHIII. I think I have the Mine Maps somewhere.

May want to look in GWX to save some research time.

[TheDarkWraith]

Report:

Used the same tactics already mentioned twice against the same artic convoy (May, 42), but this time with a diferent outcome. The escorts now go at flank speed (20-35kts) to where torpedoes were fired and bunch up there like flies in a manure pile. Still got out unscathed because, knowing something like that might occur, I fired from 9-10km and turned tail very fast.

Good to know about the bunching up. I'll have them do spiral searches instead of bunching up like flies :up: This way there's a better chance they'll detect you :yep:

[marleymen]

TDW, Can you release your latest 0.0.32 as beta to test?

[TheDarkWraith]

TDW, Can you release your latest 0.0.32 as beta to test?

I will tomorrow. More work to be done on it still :up:

[Zedi]

GWX Team used historical Mine Deployment Maps by date and Convoy Configuration for SHIII. I think I have the Mine Maps somewhere.

May want to look in GWX to save some research time.

Im done with placing the mines already, now I work only on placing the dolphins and the new ships in the campaign. GWX used also historical maps to set up the mine fields, I did the same. But if you have a mine map used in GWX, please share it, I wanna see if is any major difference from what I did. If you post a map, please do it in the WIP topic here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//showthread.php?t=182964), so we will keep this one clean.

[Jaguar]

Good to know about the bunching up. I'll have them do spiral searches instead of bunching up like flies :up: This way there's a better chance they'll detect you :yep:

Mein gott, I should be executed to help the enemy!:stare:

Nevertheless, glad to help.

[Jaguar]

Any advice and suggestion is welcome.

Ok, will report in the WIP thread.

[Sea_Phantom]

I've installed the IRAI mod and the user interface mod, but when I go to the main screen, the wolfpack mission isn't under the historical missions. Did I miss something? Is there a specific order I need to install my mods in?

[TheDarkWraith]

I've installed the IRAI mod and the user interface mod, but when I go to the main screen, the wolfpack mission isn't under the historical missions. Did I miss something? Is there a specific order I need to install my mods in?

You probably didn't install either/both correctly. Both are a double folder architecture which means you have to extract the mod from the MODS folder included in the mod and place in your \Silent Hunter 5\MODS folder :doh:

[Jaguar]

Report 2 v0.0.32:

Artic convoy, again (May, 42). As usual the convoy had as much escorts as merchants (20+ each).

For the first time I was involved in a Wolf Pack action. Awesome:rock:! Got in contact with convoy when AI subs (at least 3) were attacking. Merchants virtually unprotected, fired all 12 torpedoes. Got time to reload twice but stayed around a salvo too many, one DD spot the sub (radar?), dived, after approximately 3 game hours, in which more DDs joined the hunt untill there was at least 13 of them, my heavily damaged sub slowly descended to the abyss with it´s entire crew.
I guess greedy, being a capital sin, has a capital punishment as well.

For TDW´s consideration:

Half the escort´s numbers went after each sub contact, being so many it wasn´t really necessary. Or maybe it´s just me being absolutelly upset (was liking that campaign).

[vlad29]

I will tomorrow. More work to be done on it still :up:

Hi, TDW. It is tomorrow, already, isn't it? The big community is still waiting for the release (as well as for the link to NewUIs 6.5.1):rock::rock::rock:

[Sea_Phantom]

You probably didn't install either/both correctly. Both are a double folder architecture which means you have to extract the mod from the MODS folder included in the mod and place in your \Silent Hunter 5\MODS folder :doh:



So, if I follow you....
I need to extract the modes from the .7z (or zip? I forget which one). Then, from that folder (the 1st extracted folder). I need to extract more mods, and then put those mod folders (the 2nd extracted mods) into the MODS folder in my SH5 data?

Which things do I need to extract to get it to work all correctly? :doh:

[TheDarkWraith]

Hi, TDW. It is tomorrow, already, isn't it? The big community is still waiting for the release (as well as for the link to NewUIs 6.5.1):rock::rock::rock:

Unfortunately I was out working in CO and I didn't get any time to work on any of this. Now that I'm back home (and the woman is out of town :D) I have time to work on this again :rock:

[Jaguar]

Unfortunately I was out working in CO and I didn't get any time to work on any of this. Now that I'm back home (and the woman is out of town :D) I have time to work on this again :rock:

So off to work you go. We are dying of anxiety here. And stay away from beer! :D :woot:

[TheDarkWraith]

So off to work you go. We are dying of anxiety here. And stay away from beer! :D :woot:

You jinxed me :shifty: Now I have problem with customer that I must respond to. Just as I was getting settled in for a day of modding....

[Sea_Phantom]

So, I figured out the install thingy, but then I hit another hitch on the way to enable to mod. I put the IRAI mod over first with JSGME, but when I put over the TDC UI, it popped up with a warning saying that there was already another file that was modified by the IRAI mod and that it might affect the game. What does this mean? Should I just ignore it? Or does the 6.5.0 version already have the IRAI mod?

[stoianm]

So, I figured out the install thingy, but then I hit another hitch on the way to enable to mod. I put the IRAI mod over first with JSGME, but when I put over the TDC UI, it popped up with a warning saying that there was already another file that was modified by the IRAI mod and that it might affect the game. What does this mean? Should I just ignore it? Or does the 6.5.0 version already have the IRAI mod?
it is ok... put the tdw ui after irai:up:

[Sea_Phantom]

it is ok... put the tdw ui after irai:up:

Thanks!

Also, since I'm a total noOb...
to change the distance that things can detect me, I change the init file. So, to make merchants not really able to visually detect me, I set the min visual detect for merchants to ~25 and max to ~50?

Will this show up on the map if I have the display map contacts? (e.g., will the grey circle get smaller?)

[Jaguar]

You jinxed me :shifty: Now I have problem with customer that I must respond to. Just as I was getting settled in for a day of modding....

I should be flogged and sent to the brig.:oops:

[marleymen]

TDW, are you going to release new IRAI improvements in the next months? I read about a new alpha release 0.0.31 .. but don´t know if it will be released.
Take your time to do everything. Not coming here to rush you.

Thanks in advance.

[TheDarkWraith]

TDW, are you going to release new IRAI improvements in the next months? I read about a new alpha release 0.0.31 .. but don´t know if it will be released.
Take your time to do everything. Not coming here to rush you.

Thanks in advance.

Actually I've been rewriting basically all the AI scripts (again) for upcoming v32. I've drastically improved the sub AI and added tactics for airplanes for those that were missing them. v32 will be a major revision to IRAI and a noticeable improvement in the AI.

[Sepp von Ch.]

It sounds very interesting TDW:yep:

[Magic1111]

It sounds very interesting TDW:yep:

Yes, agree, sounds interesting ! Looking forward to the new version....:up:

[tonschk]

It sounds very interesting TDW:yep:

:DL I Agree :yeah:, Thank you TheDarkWraith :rock:

[Alky]

So I'm trying to understand what IRAI_0_0_30_No_Aircraft_Spotting_At_Depth actually does. I've read most of this thread, there's a lot of pages, but I'm wondering if it's meant to hide you from nosy aircraft when you're submerged, or the opposite? :hmmm:

Thanx for any help :)

[marleymen]

Actually I've been rewriting basically all the AI scripts (again) for upcoming v32. I've drastically improved the sub AI and added tactics for airplanes for those that were missing them. v32 will be a major revision to IRAI and a noticeable improvement in the AI.

Thanks for the info TDW.

We will stay for it. Sounds very promissing. :rock:

[THE_MASK]

So I'm trying to understand what IRAI_0_0_30_No_Aircraft_Spotting_At_Depth actually does. I've read most of this thread, there's a lot of pages, but I'm wondering if it's meant to hide you from nosy aircraft when you're submerged, or the opposite? :hmmm:

Thanx for any help :)What it means is , if you are submerged then the only way to spot aircraft is for you too physically spot them yourself with the periscope . No hints from the crew .

[Alky]

What it means is , if you are submerged then the only way to spot aircraft is for you too physically spot them yourself with the periscope . No hints from the crew .
Ahh... thanks Sober. I was hoping it meant they couldn't see me if I was submerged. :salute:

[Sepp von Ch.]

I have a request. Would it be possible to modify the behavior (speed) of the escorts? When the escort starts with interception, move relatively slowly - 14-16 knots -unrealistic and I can escape at the speed of 17 knots on the surface...


In many books written by submarine hunters - destroyers and corvettes captains) stated that after the detection of a submarine got to the place at maximum speed.

[Zedi]

TDW, is possible to have different behavior for the taskforces in a specific timeframe? Like making them less dangerous in 39, but extremely aggressive in 45? That would help a lot in the new campaign where after 43 the fun is over. Also improve their radar detection skill.

[Jaguar]

I have a request. Would it be possible to modify the behavior (speed) of the escorts? When the escort starts with interception, move relatively slowly - 14-16 knots -unrealistic and I can escape at the speed of 17 knots on the surface...
In many books written by submarine hunters - destroyers and corvettes captains) stated that after the detection of a submarine got to the place at maximum speed.

I asked the same some time ago, TDW already changed that, now escorts go after contacts at speeds above 25kts. Really fast. That version was beta but I presume the next one will have this feature as well.

[Sepp von Ch.]

Really? Great! Can´t wait for the new IRAI-version!:ping:

[Trevally.]

TDW, is possible to have different behavior for the taskforces in a specific timeframe? Like making them less dangerous in 39, but extremely aggressive in 45? That would help a lot in the new campaign where after 43 the fun is over. Also improve their radar detection skill.

In the GroupEditor there are choices for taskforces/escorts tactics:-
Early
Mid
Late

Do these settings have any effect in IRAI:06:

[TheDarkWraith]

In the GroupEditor there are choices for taskforces/escorts tactics:-
Early
Mid
Late

Do these settings have any effect in IRAI:06:

I haven't seen anywhere in the files where this is referenced :hmmm:

IRAI is going release state now, no more alpha versions :D For many many weeks I've been working on v1.0.0 and I'm VERY happy with the results so far :yep: It's truly a masterpiece.

Have a couple of things to finish up on it (some ship AI stuff and I would like to try and revise the airplane AI some more)

Change log/release notes as of now:

v1.0.0 - first official release (non-BETA and non-ALPHA state thus release state)
- revised AI tactics for unknown contacts
- adjusted AI tactics for new PT Boat unit
- increased explosion range of DCs to 150m (this allows for more shaking of uboat when DCs explode)
- changed depth precision of DCs to 2.5m
- fixed problem of when unit has no waypoints to follow it would come to all stop. Now the unit will set it's throttle to 0.5 to allow it to maneuver
- single ship (non-convoy and not HK) tactics against airplanes revised. If airplane is > 8000m from ship then ship will continue following waypoints. If airplane is < 8000m but > 1500m then ship will start zig-zagging and go to 75% max speed. If airplane is < 1500m then ship will maneuver to place airplane at ~90 degrees to it and speed is increased to full throttle.
- MERCHANT_CONTACT_DETECTED_SPEED_CHANGE_MIN changed from 0.5 to 0.8
- MERCHANT_ZIGZAG_CONTACT_DISTANCE changed from 3000m to 5000m
- for single merchant: if sub distance to merchant <= MERCHANT_CONTACT_DETECTED_WAYPOINTS_DISTANCE and >= MERCHANT_ZIGZAG_CONTACT_DISTANCE then merchant will zig-zag and change speed. If sub distance to merchant < MERCHANT_ZIGZAG_CONTACT_DISTANCE then the merchant will change heading and speed
- CONVOY_LEADER_ACTION_SPEED_CHANGE_MIN changed to 0.75
- CONVOY_LEADER_ACTION_SPEED_CHANGE_MAX changed to 0.9
- tactics that weren't differentiating between air and non-air contacts now do (and have different tactics for them)
- AI subs now have tactics against airplanes
- sub AI vastly improved (they do not die easily anymore due to stupid AI behavior). Sub AI will now play 'cat and mouse' with contacts while trying to attack/evade them. Sub AI will now try to keep the convoy escorts/battleships 'entertained' so player can wreak havoc on convoys. If convoy has no escorts then they will procede to wreak havoc on convoy.
- single ship AI (merchant and warship) greatly improved
- convoy leader AI greatly improved
- evasion tactics revised (and greatly improved)
- AI no longer has pin-point accuracy on unknown contacts. Now they will search in the direction (and range) the unknown contact is believed to be (it is random how they search and is finally what I've always wanted to accomplish with this). If they believe the unknown is submerged then they will also drop DCs while searching.

[marleymen]

Great job. Will have to take a look when you release, but before I have to repair my scope issue. I sent you a PM, TDW.

[stoianm]

I tested this version long time and i can confirm that is a masterpiece:yep::rock:

[TheDarkWraith]

I tested this version long time and i can confirm that is a masterpiece:yep::rock:

Oh but many many improvements/changes have been made since you last tested it :yep:

[stoianm]

Oh but many many improvements/changes have been made since you last tested it :yep:
cool... impatient to test the release version... glad to see you back:up:

[jwilliams]

v1.0.0 - first official release (non-BETA and non-ALPHA state thus release state)


:rock:

Awesome work TDW.

Looking forward to this. :yep:

:salute:

[Zedi]

I haven't seen anywhere in the files where this is referenced :hmmm:...

In the GroupTypeDefs.cfg, here is an example:

ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0


0 can be changed up to 2 and 3 which is Medium and Late. In stock campaign most of the units were set as Poor or Competent and tactics on 0 or 1, just to make thing easy. Now after 43 the escort will use 3, everything set at maximum.

We asked you if is possible to control the AI tactics in certain timeframes.. like having the AI noobish in 39-42 but extremely aggressive in 45-45? If they use in 39 the same tactics used in 45.. is no fun and realism.

[tonschk]

cool... impatient to test the release version... glad to see you back:up:


:salute: Me too :DL :rock:

[TheDarkWraith]

In the GroupTypeDefs.cfg, here is an example:

ExternalCargo=-1
InternalCargo=-1
CrewRating=2
Weapons=0
Sensors=0
Tactics=0
Camouflage=0


0 can be changed up to 2 and 3 which is Medium and Late. In stock campaign most of the units were set as Poor or Competent and tactics on 0 or 1, just to make thing easy. Now after 43 the escort will use 3, everything set at maximum.

We asked you if is possible to control the AI tactics in certain timeframes.. like having the AI noobish in 39-42 but extremely aggressive in 45-45? If they use in 39 the same tactics used in 45.. is no fun and realism.

ah, ok. Yes I plan on (trying to) cloning the AI sensors files and adjusting them to 'dumb down' the AI in early part of war and 'harden' them in late part of war. What I was planning on doing was making 3 steps of difficulty in the AI sensors:
- years '38-middle '42 AI will be dumb down
- years middle '42-middle '44 will be like they are now
- years '44 on will be made very difficult

How does that sound? Do I need to change the years?

[PL_Andrev]

What I was planning on doing was making 3 steps of difficulty in the AI sensors:
- years '38-middle '42 AI will be dumb down
- years middle '42-middle '44 will be like they are now
- years '44 on will be made very difficult

How does that sound? Do I need to change the years?
If I can suggest something other... in my opinion the correct way is random AI level for years.
For example: Hard, Medium, Dumb (number is a chance for each DD to be H, M or D):
'39: 75%D 20%M 05%H
'40: 50%D 30%M 20%H
'41: 30%D 40%M 30%H
'42: 20%D 50%M 30%H
'43: 15%D 40%M 45%H
'44: 10%D 30%M 60%H
'45: 05%D 20%M 75%H

At this way the human player will not know which level of difficulty currently is. Maybe this DD is dumb, but maybe hard.

This same way is used for multiplayer games: some DDs are hard, some medium and some low and the question is: WHICH ONE?
:D

[sentenc3]

At this way the human player will not know which level of difficulty currently is. Maybe this DD is dumb, but maybe hard.

Yes, But it is Not real.Los DD had the same technological advances in the same years:cool:

[TheDarkWraith]

cool... impatient to test the release version... glad to see you back:up:

I've never left. Sometimes I don't 'appear' or post for days/weeks because I'm either travelling for work/vacation or am working diligently on mod(s). Writing new scripts for AI is VERY time consuming and difficult. Just one typo and the game CTD's on load and you are left scratching your head as to where the error is (cause game doesn't tell you where the error is). It's also very time consuming due to testing all the different scenarios/actions/reactions the AI can do.

Subs now have tactics against land units. Have to add tactics for land units to ships/airplanes also.

Now we need to add land units (coastal defenses et al) to the campaign (and once we do I'll give them tactics) :yep:

[stoianm]

I've never left. Sometimes I don't 'appear' or post for days/weeks because I'm either travelling for work/vacation or am working diligently on mod(s). Writing new scripts for AI is VERY time consuming and difficult. Just one typo and the game CTD's on load and you are left scratching your head as to where the error is (cause game doesn't tell you where the error is). It's also very time consuming due to testing all the different scenarios/actions/reactions the AI can do.

Subs now have tactics against land units. Have to add tactics for land units to ships/airplanes also.

Now we need to add land units (coastal defenses et al) to the campaign (and once we do I'll give them tactics) :yep:
i meant glad to see you back here...in business... i knew you not left ... i supoused you were busy with that germany ''job'':)... and also i know that when you not post to much somethimes you popup interesting stuf:cool:

[Trevally.]

Now we need to add land units (coastal defenses et al) to the campaign (and once we do I'll give them tactics) :yep:

:o

Zedi - looks like we have more work to do:D

:up:

[TheDarkWraith]

:o

Zedi - looks like we have more work to do:D

:up:

Actually I have more work to do....there was a reason why the devs didn't include coastal defenses....they currently don't work :nope: Time to fix :D

Here is the large coastal defense in game:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=364&pictureid=4361

I was testing merchant tactics against it when I realized that it is broken...

[PL_Andrev]

Yes, But it is Not real.Los DD had the same technological advances in the same years:cool:
Sure? SH5 is copy of SH4 which is copy of SH3. I remember (armour data at museum files) that in SH3 the armaments of the escort ships (and others) were changed for other years. For example elite destroyer at '39 has no radar, but novice at '45 has it. This same thing with hedgehogs. One difference is the sensor's sensitivity.
:hmmm:

[Stevepine]

If I can suggest something other... in my opinion the correct way is random AI level for years.
For example: Hard, Medium, Dumb (number is a chance for each DD to be H, M or D):
'39: 75%D 20%M 05%H
'40: 50%D 30%M 20%H
'41: 30%D 40%M 30%H
'42: 20%D 50%M 30%H
'43: 15%D 40%M 45%H
'44: 10%D 30%M 60%H
'45: 05%D 20%M 75%H

At this way the human player will not know which level of difficulty currently is. Maybe this DD is dumb, but maybe hard.

This same way is used for multiplayer games: some DDs are hard, some medium and some low and the question is: WHICH ONE?
:D

Please please dont dumb down the AI too much in the early part of the war. There's nothing worse in a sim than the 'shooting fish in a barrell' feeling. :)

[PL_Andrev]

Actually I have more work to do....there was a reason why the devs didn't include coastal defenses....they currently don't work :nope: Time to fix :D
Probably these same story with coastal searchlights - fixes at SH4 left them broken all time...
:nope:

[Zedi]

In Open Horizons placed millions of turrets along the Normandy coast hoping that when the allied fleet will get close to the shore there will be a lot of smoke. Not.

I already placed few coastal guns to Gibraltar, Suez and Panama hoping that some day the turrets will be fixed. Seems like there is real chance for that now. Question is.. these turrets are working as air defense too?

Regarding the escorts AI... there is nothing unrealistic to have a dumb AI at early war. The allied forces were just not prepared for what was coming, Happy Time had a meaning those years.

But starting 43 things are changing fast. The allied forces already have technological superiority, a LOT of more ships that include air coverage over the whole convoys route and the Enigma is not an enigma anymore. Is why Black May was a major turning point in the uboat war the beginning of the end.

So yeah, be happy as much as you can in the early war, later on everything will be a nightmare. And same as TDW with IRAI, we are working on the campaign too to make this nightmare a day by day reality. "Hopefully" in 45 you will not be able to leave the port alive.

TDW.. how about the AI vs AI ? There will be a lot of occasion for such events, starting with Op. Weserubung where is a big german fleet heading to every ports in Norway following their historical route. Because of the tight straits of Norways, not sure what will happen there when the 2 enemy AI forces will meet each other. Hope that a BB with 6 DD will not get stuck on route to Bergen, then the enemy patrol will decimate it because they cannot fight back being stuck.

[TheDarkWraith]

AI vs AI should be a lot more exciting now, especially sub AI vs other AI and aiplane AI vs other AI. As soon as I finish with some things of the ship AI I'll release a test version of v1.0.0 as so many changes/additions have been made that I want feedback on them.

Looks like the coastal defense AI controller is broken in SH5. I say this because the coastal defense unit in my testing doesn't appear in the AI editor so I can view it in game. Looks like we have to get creative now.....

[Trevally.]

Looks like we have to get creative now.....

Payday for TDW:D

[TheDarkWraith]

Payday for TDW:D

So to try the simple things first I took the coastal defense unit from SH3 (since I know it works) and ported it over to SH5. Tried in game and no worky :nope: This tells me the coastal defense AI is definitely broke.

[Alky]

So to try the simple things first I took the coastal defense unit from SH3 (since I know it works) and ported it over to SH5. Tried in game and no worky :nope: This tells me the coastal defense AI is definitely broke.
If/when it's worky, will my deck gun be able to do damage to it? :D

[TheDarkWraith]

If/when it's worky, will my deck gun be able to do damage to it? :D

That is the intent, to make it destroyable :up:

[EvilJawa]

tdw... you are awesome. :DL

[HanSolo78]

That is the intent, to make it destroyable :up:

Nice that you wil do that.. so I don´t have to do that.
I also thought baout creating some... but two guys orking on that would be too much ;)
Do you plan to create other land units which can be detroyed?
For example... small houses or industrial parts could be used for missions... "destroy weather station... etc."

[TheDarkWraith]

Well the sad news is the coastal defense AI controller is definitely broke in SH5. Thus there's no way to make land units and thus is why no land units (with AI) exist in SH5. The good news I found a way to make coastal defenses :D

I made them be ships as they need to be able to discern enemies so they can fire upon them. The one is this screenshot is for ships and subs (and is currently firing on an enemy merchant). I'll make one for aircraft so everything is covered.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=364&pictureid=4362

The coastal defense stand is not destroyable (reinforced concrete with rebar) but the gun on it is.

Now all one needs to do is add these to the campaign on the shores of the coast or in harbors like the screenshot shows.

[Trevally.]

The good news I found a way to make coastal defenses :D

I made them be ships as they need to be able to discern enemies so they can fire upon them. The one is this screenshot is for ships and subs (and is currently firing on an enemy merchant). I'll make one for aircraft so everything is covered.

The coastal defense stand is not destroyable (reinforced concrete with rebar) but the gun on it is.

Now all one needs to do is add these to the campaign on the shores of the coast or in harbors like the screenshot shows.

Great job:yeah:

[Sailor Steve]

This truly is awesome work. I'm glad there are people with the smarts, the skills and the dedication to keep at these things until they're fixed.

[Zedi]

Do you think that if I move them on the land on docked state.. they will sound the alarm? How about using a turret from a BB as coastal cannon?

[TheDarkWraith]

Do you think that if I move them on the land on docked state.. they will sound the alarm?

can't move them onland - just tried and because they are ships they take damage until dead. What alarm?

[Zedi]

Thought they will stay on land, but only sounding the alarm.. as those stupid patrol ships in ports that gets stuck because of the shallow water.

Its a nice addition, but not sure how these stuff will look on Normandy coast *scratch my head* ...

[TheDarkWraith]

Thought they will stay on land, but only sounding the alarm.. as those stupid patrol ships in ports that gets stuck because of the shallow water.

Its a nice addition, but not sure how these stuff will look on Normandy coast *scratch my head* ...

We have to work with what's available and what we can make work.

This 'fix' is a real PITA though as now I have to go and revise ALL tactics for it :damn:

[Zedi]

Well, at least now Gibraltar, Suez and Panama is sealed for good. I feel an urge to make the start of the MN campaign in France, no teleporting in Italy.

[TheDarkWraith]

A side 'consequence' of this fix is that the coastal defenses can be given radar, hydrophone, sonar, whatever...they are a ship :DL This could make for some interesting things....

[Trevally.]

Well, at least now Gibraltar, Suez and Panama is sealed for good. I feel an urge to make the start of the MN campaign in France, no teleporting in Italy.

:hmmm: Sounds like Zedi wants us all dead by 42.

this could save some time on the campaign editing:D

EDIT:
A side 'consequence' of this fix is that the coastal defenses can be given radar, hydrophone, sonar, whatever...they are a ship :DL This could make for some interesting things....

Looks like we can add TDW to the list.

[Trevally.]

@ TDW

With the new version, how will the AI sub handle:-
Meeting convoy head on?
Meeting convoy side on?

I am looking at the wolfpacks travel paths and thinking about changing it so we get more chance of an attack.

[TheDarkWraith]

@ TDW

With the new version, how will the AI sub handle:-
Meeting convoy head on?
Meeting convoy side on?

I am looking at the wolfpacks travel paths and thinking about changing it so we get more chance of an attack.

It's totally random what they decide to do. I can tell you this though - they will submerge at ~5000m from the contact or sooner if they take damage.

test version of v1.0.0 will be releasing shortly so you will be able to test it out.

[Trevally.]

@ TDW
Also - what is the start attack range for the AI subs when they meet a target:06:

[TheDarkWraith]

@ TDW
Also - what is the start attack range for the AI subs when they meet a target:06:

As soon as they spot a target they will pursue it provided it's < 15000m from them and they are not heavily damaged. They will not fire any torpedoes until they are <= 1500m and > 450m from the contact. I still can't get them to fire any guns.....but I have a clue as to why.

[Trevally.]

As soon as they spot a target they will pursue it provided it's < 15000m from them and they are not heavily damaged. They will not fire any torpedoes until they are <= 1500m and > 450m from the contact. I still can't get them to fire any guns.....but I have a clue as to why.

Thats good thanks:up:

[TheDarkWraith]

3D model question: I have the AA platform from SH3 that I'm using for the coastal defense. The 3D model isn't 'closed' and I need to close it so that collisions can happen with it. How does one close a 3D model? The bottom of it is open and is what needs to be closed.

EDIT:

I'm being stupid! The beauty of the DMG_col node is that you can specify another 3D model for the collision of an object. So I made a cylinder in Wings3D that is about the size of the platform :up:

[TheDarkWraith]

I'm going to apologize now.....I finally got the AI to do what I've always wanted them to do when they detect you and proceed to intercept you to do DC runs :D You do not want to be DC'd anymore :cool: Trying to get a single torpedo off when they are heading towards you for their DC run is really a futile attempt now (a spread of 4 might have a chance). Even trying to take out the Director is challenging to say the least.

work still progresses on v1.0.0 :woot:

[THE_MASK]

I'm going to apologize now.....I finally got the AI to do what I've always wanted them to do when they detect you and proceed to intercept you to do DC runs :D You do not want to be DC'd anymore :cool: Trying to get a single torpedo off when they are heading towards you for their DC run is really a futile attempt now (a spread of 4 might have a chance). Even trying to take out the Director is challenging to say the least.

work still progresses on v1.0.0 :woot:Fantastic , when you have finished with all your wips this game will be the best simulation game ever :yeah:

[TheDarkWraith]

Fantastic , when you have finished with all your wips this game will be the best simulation game ever :yeah:

We (community) are getting it there :up:

I forgot to mention that proper evasion techniques against 1-2 warships DCing you now will help you get away (side consequence of above :shifty:) :DL If there are more than 2 you will be visiting Davy Jones's locker. Choose your targets wisely.

[tonschk]

Fantastic , when you have finished with all your wips this game will be the best simulation game ever :yeah:

:salute: :rock:

[TheDarkWraith]

I am SO very pleased now with how the AI 'behaves' with DC runs and searching for you after losing contact with you (when submerged). There's no rhythm or rhyme as to what they do or how they do it....it's like they are actually thinking of what their next move will be :rock: This is why I love modding, especially AI :D

I just played cat and mouse with a veteran V&W destroyer, changing depth and speed erratically, for over 2 hrs game time. He would lose contact with me, start searching then acquire me again, do a DC run and I would give him the slip after his run....thinking I'm almost home free I up the speed a little and change the direction....moments later he picks a new place to search which is next to me...I drop speed but too late, he re-acquires me.....this went on and on and was SO fun!

[Dfalle]

Dude i just wanted to stop in and say thank you for all the hard work youve done with all these mods. The time and energy youve put into this is astounding, im surprised your lady lets you get away with it. Its guys like you that put the companies who rush half tested games onto the shelves to shame. I look forward to your completion of your latest update,until than work safe and hopefully your still enjoying modding and havent smashed to many keyboards out of frustration in the process.......be careful thou...with this work youve done they may try and hire you to help build SH6....good luck!!!!

[Obelix]

It's just wonderful!:yeah::salute:

I just played cat and mouse with a veteran V&W destroyer, changing depth and speed erratically, for over 2 hrs game time. He would lose contact with me, start searching then acquire me again, do a DC run and I would give him the slip after his run....thinking I'm almost home free I up the speed a little and change the direction....moments later he picks a new place to search which is next to me...I drop speed but too late, he re-acquires me.....this went on and on and was SO fun!

[Rongel]

Sounds really good :D.

I can't wait to start a new career and play the game this time from start to finish. But must wait until this and Zedi's campaign are ready....

I hope that TDW's water disturbance mod still works with the new IRAI and gives us a small chance to escape. Oh, could it be included in this new release?

[Zedi]

TDW, hope you dont forget to remind the escorts why they are next to a convoy. They main role is to keep the danger away and ensure that the load is delivered in safety at the destination.. if possible, under a year. If they start again to leave the convoy and 6-12 DD + a carrier is hunting a single sub for days, thats just a realism killer.

Is why it would be fantastic if you can play with their tactics according to a specific timeframe. Indeed, after 43 the escorts became sub hunters and they were ordered to hunt-kill. But not all. Let 2-3 DD to entertain the player, but keep the rest of the convoy on move.

[Adriatico]

If I understand... Escorts have to strictly protect convoys...
One or two could start chasing submarine... leave the convoy formation for 15-20 minutes - but to leave convoy "opened" (undefended) from one side it would be carnage against wolfpack !?!

[Obelix]

As we refine ASW escorts actually are placed on large distances from the convoy, it did not allow boats to get close to cargo ships. Apparently this has become possible with increased number of escort ships. The main task of escorts and air power was to drive the boat under water and hold it there as long as possible, which deprived the boat likely to attack the convoy. Was not necessarily her to drown. Sinking already engaged in group hunting for submarines.

[Zedi]

Thats correct. But after Black May, they were ordered to hunt down the subs. So 1 or 2 escorts may stay to play for a while, but not all... and most important, never a capital ship should change course and hunt a sub, is not their role. Is what I didn't liked in IRAI and I really hope this will be changed in the next version.

[Adriatico]

...and most important, never a capital ship should change course and hunt a sub, is not their role. Is what I didn't liked in IRAI and I really hope this will be changed in the next version.

...capital ship - turn to hunting sub ?!?
There is no point in changing "vanila" nonsense - into mod nonsense.:hmmm:

[Zedi]

I think TDW changed a bit this part.. I reported many times carriers and cruisers hunting me for days and cutting in half every other DD that was in her path. Last time I meet a convoy with a BB, I hit her by mistake because I was using acoustic torpedoes.. after being hit, she left the scene on full speed leaving the convoy far behind, but a cruiser from the convoy came to investigate and sunk one of the escorts that was not fast enough to avoid her.

That was with v0.28.. not sure if this was changed since, had no time to play anymore.

[TheDarkWraith]

I hope that TDW's water disturbance mod still works with the new IRAI and gives us a small chance to escape. Oh, could it be included in this new release?

The water disturbance mod will still work with new version of IRAI. Including it probably won't happen because that would defeat the user's choice of whether they wanted it or not. I like options and I know others do to.

TDW, hope you dont forget to remind the escorts why they are next to a convoy. They main role is to keep the danger away and ensure that the load is delivered in safety at the destination.. if possible, under a year. If they start again to leave the convoy and 6-12 DD + a carrier is hunting a single sub for days, thats just a realism killer.

Is why it would be fantastic if you can play with their tactics according to a specific timeframe. Indeed, after 43 the escorts became sub hunters and they were ordered to hunt-kill. But not all. Let 2-3 DD to entertain the player, but keep the rest of the convoy on move.

I don't have the ability to define tactics vs game year. Thus I have to make compromises.

I am revising all the tactics used in this rewrite. Convoys (non-HK) will have escorts that are given the protect convoy and guard convoy roles. These roles only allow them to attack and pursue contacts for unlimited time frames (I don't have the ability to see how far the unit is from the convoy thus I can't define a max distance from the convoy. I also do not have the ability to see how long the unit has been pursuing a contact thus I can't define a max time that they can pursue/attack the contact. I only have the ability to see how long they have 'lost' a contact) Guard convoy roles will not attack or pursue a contact unless they are 'inside' the convoy. Protect convoy roles can attack and pursue contacts that are outside the convoy (as well as inside the convoy). Now if Battleships are part of the convoy then one will be assigned guard convoy role and one will be assigned protect convoy role. The rest will be assigned the convoy role (follow leader). I have to do this because it's possible that some convoys contain no escorts but have battleships. This means that battleships could come hunting you (along with escorts) if you try to attack a convoy. If I don't add the battleships then you could have a convoy that contains no escorts but has all battleships and if you attacked it none of the battleships would do anything (and people would be upset because they would say the AI is stupid).

HK convoys will have guard convoy and protect convoys roles also but they will also have plaster (DC) roles. Plaster roles allow the escort to attack and pursue the contact (DCing it) but differ from guard convoy and protect convoy in the way they search for a 'lost' contact and how long they search when the contact is 'lost'. Plaster roles now take into account the unit's crew rating for how effective they are at DCing the contact (and searching for the contact after they have lost it). Protect convoy and guard convoy roles have the ability to plaster also but the way they search for a 'lost' contact (and the timeframe of that search) depends on their respective role. Once again, if Battleships are part of the HK convoy then one will be assigned guard convoy role and one will be assigned protect convoy role. The rest will be assigned the convoy role (follow leader). I have to do this because it's possible that some HK convoys contain no escorts but have battleships. This means that battleships could come hunting you (along with escorts) if you try to attack an HK convoy. If I don't add the battleships then you could have an HK convoy that contains no escorts but has all battleships and if you attacked it none of the battleships would do anything (and people would be upset because they would say the AI is stupid).

Now since escorts and battleships are assigned protect convoy and guard convoy roles, it's possible that you could have MANY units attacking you depending on where you are in relation to the convoy. If you are outside the convoy then ALL the units assigned to protect convoy (and those with the plaster role also) will come hunting you (if you are spotted). If you are inside the convoy then ALL the units assigned guard convoy and protect convoy (and plaster roles also) will come hunting you (if you are spotted). I haven't decided yet how many units will be assigned guard convoy and protect convoy in the convoys. I'm thinking a max of 2 units assigned guard convoy and a max of 2 units assigned protect convoy for each convoy. If battleships are present then 1 of the 2 will be an escort and the other will be a battleship. If no escorts (or no battleships) then only 1 will be assigned each role. Keep in mind that if a Battleship is assigned guard convoy or protect convoy role and it has no DCs it will just keep making passes over you trying to ram you if you surface.

Those units remaining (escorts, battleships, merchants) that were not assigned guard convoy or protect convoy (or any other role) will be assigned the convoy role (follow leader). The convoy role makes the unit follow the leader and not break formation (unless torpedo spotted). The convoy role does allow them to attack a contact they spot with guns (and DCs if able to and contact is near/under them)

If I understand... Escorts have to strictly protect convoys...
One or two could start chasing submarine... leave the convoy formation for 15-20 minutes - but to leave convoy "opened" (undefended) from one side it would be carnage against wolfpack !?!

I cannot define a max time that a unit can hunt/pursue a contact. The game does not allow me to do this.

The convoys will never be left 'opened' or undefended. There will always be an escort (or more) and/or a battleship (or more) present with the convoy (either in protect convoy, guard convoy, or convoy role)
.
I think TDW changed a bit this part.. I reported many times carriers and cruisers hunting me for days and cutting in half every other DD that was in her path. Last time I meet a convoy with a BB, I hit her by mistake because I was using acoustic torpedoes.. after being hit, she left the scene on full speed leaving the convoy far behind, but a cruiser from the convoy came to investigate and sunk one of the escorts that was not fast enough to avoid her.

The game defines carriers as battleships. Cruisers are also defined as battleships. This makes it very hard to distinguish between them when assigning roles. If a battleship is assigned protect convoy, guard convoy, or plaster role and they spot you then they will circle you at some random distance (yet to be coded) if you are submerged. If you are surfaced then they will try to ram you.

The AI's collision avoidance isn't the best and there's nothing I can do about it (hard coded).

[Zedi]

I disagree with the capital ships role. They never ever have to engage a sub. These ships are just to valorous to be let to even get close to a sub, not to mention that they are not so easy to maneuver as a small DD. So every capital ship should start zig zag, increase speed and get the hell out from the attack scene while the DD's start the hunt and do everything possible to keep the sub far.

But the capital ship should have a major role against any surface/air unit, is where they take over the lead. And for a capital ship no need to be close to the sub to own it when surfaced. I was hit right in the face by a BB from 18km away.. those guys are just deadly for anything that float.

The carriers are launching planes on attack, but they also need to keep distance from the sub, so maybe you can learn them to always keep a safe distance somehow. I know is easy to sya, but damn difficult to make it happen.

What is working absolutely awesome in IRAI now is the ships vs air raid, booth are very clever. The planes bomb everything that moves, but they have a passion on escorts. After the escorts are done.. the convoy is doomed.

Bad part it that the whole convoy is circling when under attack, instead of sailing away asap. If they start circling instead of zig zag and leaving the battle, the attacking planes keep reporting the convoy then more and more planes will come, so at one point there will be more planes than ships.

never understood whats with those HK groups fro a convoy? What do you exactly mean by this? Convoys are formed like this
X generic cargo 100%
X generic tanker 100%
X generic cargo 30%

X generic destroyer 100%
X generic corvette 80%
X generic BB 10%

I see no HK group defined.. how do you spot them?

[TheDarkWraith]

IRAI defines an HK group as a convoy (> 1 ship) that contains no merchants.

Air vs ship battles will be even better in v1.0.0 as the ship's have gotten 'smarter' in their evasion tactics against airplanes. When the airplane is closing in at close range the ship will try and turn 90 degrees to the airplane while also going to ahead flank speed :DL Convoys will start zig-zagging and make random speed changes when they spot an airplane. They will also try and turn 90 degrees to the airplane when they are closing in at close range.

I haven't worked on improving the air AI yet (not sure if I can make it any better than I already have)

I think we need to have a discussion about the capitol ships AI. Capitol ships being Battleships, Cruisers, and Aircraft carriers (game classifies all these as battleships). Since I am rewriting basically everything I want to get this to where we all want it to be.

We need to discuss their tactics in the following situations:
- HK group where they are the only warships (no escorts and no merchants)
- HK group where they have escorts also (and escort is leader of the convoy)
- Convoy (has merchants) where there are no escorts (one battleship will be leader)
- Convoy (has merchants) where there are escorts (one escort will be leader)

and for each situation above we need to take into account what to do against ship, sub, unknown, and airplane for it. i.e.:

HK group where they are the only warship tactic against:
- sub:
- ship:
- unknown:
- airplane:

In these situations what should the battleships do? We need to discuss what the leader should do (if it's a battleship) and what the remaining battleships should do. i.e.:

HK group where they are the only warship and is leader tactic against:
- sub:
- ship:
- unknown:
- airplane:

HK group where they are the only warship and is not leader tactic against:
- sub:
- ship:
- unknown:
- airplane:

Any other scenarios I didn't mention please bring up.

I'm open to suggestions/comments so please don't hesitate to mention what's on your mind.

Right now is the time for me to make new tactics/revise existing tactics. After I release this version it's not going to be so easy to change as I'm streamlining the code to reduce memory usage and to remove duplicate/similar tactics.

[Targor Avelany]

just wanted to say - tip hat to all the modders who are making this game awesome. TDW: /bow to your knowledge and skill. :salute:

Almost making me seriously think to dust off my unfinished computer skills and see if I can help with anything. :hmmm:

More on the topic, this discussion can be somewhat tricky, as there is a good number of coniditons and "ifs" to each scenario.

I think it is also important that since there is no ability do define tactics based on the year, it is important to attempt to balance these tactics between early war and the end of the war, as it seems from Zedi's comment, that the tactics have changed. Based on that - people will have to settle for more aggressive tactics at the start of the war (compare to RL) and less aggressive in the end of the war...

I'll continue my thoughts later when I will be able to arrange them more properly and hopefully not to piss anyone off, as I'm just a regular gamer at the moment...

[TheDarkWraith]

As I defined the scenarois for which the Capitol ships can find themselves in that pretty much rules out any 'ifs'. Yes I could write tons of code to cover pretty much every possible scenario and 'if' but 1) it's not feasible, 2) would take months to do, 3) would be a nightmare to debug/troubleshoot, and 4) there's no reason to do so. By defining what they do in the scenarios posted it will cover > 95% of the situations that they will be in.

Single ship AI I have completed and is working excellent (merchants, escorts, sub, battleships, and airplanes). It's when you start putting these units into convoys is where it starts getting tricky.

[Zedi]

Capital ships alone ? If anyone spotted a situation like this in the campaign, please give details about the location so I try track down the source and fix it. A BB never should sail alone out on the sea without protection and merchants are not a protection. Beside, a capital ships cant do much against a sub anyway as they cannot be maneuvered fast and easy as a destroyer. They should stay far on a safe distance and interfere only if a surface or air contact is spotted.

[TheDarkWraith]

Capital ships alone ? If anyone spotted a situation like this in the campaign, please give details about the location so I try track down the source and fix it. A BB never should sail alone out on the sea without protection and merchants are not a protection. Beside, a capital ships cant do much against a sub anyway as they cannot be maneuvered fast and easy as a destroyer. They should stay far on a safe distance and interfere only if a surface or air contact is spotted.

A capitol ship can find itself in this situation if it's escort is destroyed and it has other capitol ships with it (could have been a convoy of battleships with a single escort). There are many other possibilities as to how a captiol ship can find itself in these situations. And because of these situations I have to make tactics for it.

[Zedi]

If such a situation occur, only solutions is.. speed. Think of the Bismarck and Eugen, these guys can hit multiple targets even at max speed. If a capital ship is left alone with a convoy.. zig zag and speed is again the only solution against a sub.

But owning a capital ship should be impossible. Since I use IRAI, I never was able to hit one because they detect the torpedo and increase the speed. Only chance was when I used a acoustic torpedo, but even then I cant understand how come my torpedo was faster than the BB... is the main reason why we rework the campaign and remove the capital ships hunt. If you own one, should be luck or a docked/damaged ship.

[Targor Avelany]

The game defines carriers as battleships. Cruisers are also defined as battleships. This makes it very hard to distinguish between them when assigning roles. If a battleship is assigned protect convoy, guard convoy, or plaster role and they spot you then they will circle you at some random distance (yet to be coded) if you are submerged. If you are surfaced then they will try to ram you.


This made me think that if you want to somewhat ballance this, a lesser, much lesser, number of the battleships would actually stay and hunt the sub, i.e., compare to the number of ones that will continue with the escort duty, in cases where there is no escorts at all.

In any cases where there are escorts, I'm not really sure if any of the battleships should be hunting subs: unless the sub will surface, battleship can't really do much against it, beside making it not-surface and saffocate eventually, can it?

[TheDarkWraith]

In any cases where there are escorts, I'm not really sure if any of the battleships should be hunting subs: unless the sub will surface, battleship can't really do much against it, beside making it not-surface and saffocate eventually, can it?

that was my thinking in why I gave the battleships roles in convoys. They may not be able to DC but they can keep the sub underwater and make it eventually surface. At that time they can go to ahead flank and ram it.

[Targor Avelany]

that was my thinking in why I gave the battleships roles in convoys. They may not be able to DC but they can keep the sub underwater and make it eventually surface. At that time they can go to ahead flank and ram it.

i see you point. Hmm... this becomes more and more interesting :) Lots of thinking...

[Adriatico]

Can somebody confirm compatibility between IRAI and Das Campaign ?
:ping:
Is it possible within IRAI to have - "average skills of escorts" gradually increasing from 1939 towards 1943/44 ?

It would be normal that in 1939 is very rare - encounter of expert allied destroyer... and more likely in 1941 ...with even more "experts" in 1943 ?

* * *
I am rookie in SH5... but it seems very important isssue:hmmm:

[Zedi]

Can somebody confirm compatibility between IRAI and Das Campaign ?
:ping:
Is it possible within IRAI to have - "average skills of escorts" gradually increasing from 1939 towards 1943/44 ?

It would be normal that in 1939 is very rare - encounter of expert allied destroyer... and more likely in 1941 ...with even more "experts" in 1943 ?

* * *
I am rookie in SH5... but it seems very important isssue:hmmm:

Thats the plan. No or less escorts in early days, open hell in later war.

[Dfalle]

First off im no modder, saddly i lack the know how and the understanding of working code but i do really enjoy the game and the mods that you all have worked so hard to put out. First off i downloaded your current version of the ira mod and was a bit confused and wonder if i have it installed properly. After installing the mod i attacked a unescorted convoy and most of my torpedoes missed...probably calculation mistakes or they saw the torpedoes and slowed down as most of my misses went in front of the ships. And i shot from over 3000 meters....
Anyhow i followed the convoy and when night fell i surfaced inside the convoy and they started sending messages that i was sited... but they didnt do anything else, they didnt change course and i sunk 6 ships with my deck gun at really short ranges. Several of the ships turned on there search lights and had them on me but continued to sail along side me without any course changes.
This lead me to think i may not have installed the mod correctly, any advice would be appreciated of course. The other thing i figured was maybe since its so early in the war there crews were all in the uneducated catigory of the mod... i dunno.
Did i miss something? was i supposed to go into your code settings and either activate some thing or increase they ships ai?
Also about the capital ships in convoys. Hmm i must admit that most of my WWII navey study has been on the german side of the war. My grandfather was in the german navey during the war and was actually asigned to guard duty out in front of admiral doenitz main office. He was later asigned as a flak reloader on a german mine sweeper that was sunk in the channel in the spring of 44....They found him floating face down in the water and only he and one of the machine gunners were the only ones who survived.
Anyhow getting back to the subject of capital ships. I could be wrong but wasnt the allies main use of capital ships to keep the german navey bottled up in port? At least in the end of the war? I know in the beginning they werent sending aircraft carriers or battle ships with supply convoys and if they did it was only to get the capital ships into place whare they could hunt the german navey and blockade there ports. So in my novice opinion wouldnt it be extremly rare to see battle ships in convoys in real life unless you come across a military convoy out hunting rogue german ships or run into them as they watch the german ports?
I can see in the last years of the war having air craft carriers in merchant shipping convoys along with the destroyers, i have read examples of that.
I know you are trying to make the game as realistic as possable and im sure this message may be irritating....kind of feel like a student in class trying to teach the professer so please dont take offence.
Do you plan on adding more capital ships to convoys at the later part of the war or is that for someone who is modding the campaign?
Again im just a humble novice but wanted to put my two cents in regardless, ignore my comments if they offend you.
Thanks again for all your hard work, having a game that is they most realistic as possable is what im looking for and with your mods i think ive found it...if i can get it to run properly.

[marleymen]

Anyhow i followed the convoy and when night fell i surfaced inside the convoy and they started sending messages that i was sited... but they didnt do anything else, they didnt change course and i sunk 6 ships with my deck gun at really short ranges.

That is a "flavour effect" made by messages mod in the TDW UI, but it´s not a real sighting. That´s why they don´t do anything (until they spot you).

They will do when you get into his spotting range (if it´s at night it will be minimum, but after atack they will turn on the lights and you will see how they behave)

[TheDarkWraith]

Work is coming along nicely. Spent today working on how the mod uses capitol ships and reducing memory requirements

v1.0.0 - first official release (non-BETA and non-ALPHA state thus release state)
- revised AI tactics for unknown contacts
- adjusted AI tactics for new PT Boat unit
- increased explosion range of DCs to 150m (this allows for more shaking of uboat when DCs explode)
- changed depth precision of DCs to 2.5m
- fixed problem of when unit has no waypoints to follow it would come to all stop. Now the unit will set it's throttle to 0.5 to allow it to maneuver
- single ship (non-convoy and not HK) tactics against airplanes revised. If airplane is > 8000m from ship then ship will continue following waypoints. If airplane is < 8000m but > 1500m then ship will start zig-zagging and go to 75% max speed. If airplane is < 1500m then ship will maneuver to place airplane at ~90 degrees to it and speed is increased to full throttle.
- MERCHANT_CONTACT_DETECTED_SPEED_CHANGE_MIN changed from 0.75 to 1.0
- MERCHANT_ZIGZAG_CONTACT_DISTANCE changed from 3000m to 5000m
- for single merchant: if sub distance to merchant <= MERCHANT_CONTACT_DETECTED_WAYPOINTS_DISTANCE and >= MERCHANT_ZIGZAG_CONTACT_DISTANCE then merchant will zig-zag and change speed. If sub distance to merchant < MERCHANT_ZIGZAG_CONTACT_DISTANCE then the merchant will change heading and speed
- CONVOY_LEADER_ACTION_SPEED_CHANGE_MIN changed to 0.75
- CONVOY_LEADER_ACTION_SPEED_CHANGE_MAX changed to 0.9
- tactics that weren't differentiating between air and non-air contacts now do (and have different tactics for them)
- AI subs now have tactics against airplanes
- sub AI vastly improved (they do not die easily anymore due to stupid AI behavior). Sub AI will now play 'cat and mouse' with contacts while trying to attack/evade them. Sub AI will now try to keep the convoy escorts/battleships 'entertained' so player can wreak havoc on convoys. If convoy has no escorts then they will procede to wreak havoc on convoy.
- single ship AI (merchant and warship) greatly improved
- convoy leader AI greatly improved
- evasion tactics revised (and greatly improved)
- AI no longer has pin-point accuracy on unknown contacts. Now they will search in the direction (and range) the unknown contact is believed to be (it is random how they search and is finally what I've always wanted to accomplish with this). If they believe the unknown is submerged then they will also drop DCs while searching.
- tactics against land units (coastal defenses et al) added to all units
- Plaster tactics revised. When contact is lost during operation plaster the quality of the AIs search ability takes crew rating into account
- Capitol ships (Battleships, Carriers, and Cruisers) now do not try to attack a sub unless it's surfaced. If it's submerged they will continue following waypoints. This applies to single ships and those ships assigned a role via a tactic
- Tactics that weren't checking to see if torpedoes were in the water now do so
- Tactics that weren't checking to see if they could possibly ram a sub now do
- Code consolidation performed to reduce memory requirements. Duplicated functions also removed.
- Convoy tactics that used capitol ships revised to use them properly (not asking them to attack/pursue a sub unless it's surfaced)

[Kryptoff]

Download link? :)

[THE_MASK]

Fantastic work there . Looks like you enjoyed the challenge . Just thinking out aloud , considering this photo
http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/5892/convoy2.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/717/convoy2.jpg/)
Could the AI take the CargoDef.cfg file into consideration or some other relevant file and say
Guard ship if cargo = Tanks/ fuel etc
and one escort searches in 1000mts radius of guard ship and serching if enemy detected within 5000mts of convoy and more than 4 escorts etc . In other words if enemy is detected have one escort guard the most valuable merchant ships which should be in the middle . But not use the guard tactic every time .

[TheDarkWraith]

Could the AI take the CargoDef.cfg file into consideration or some other relevant file and say
Guard ship if cargo = Tanks/ fuel etc
and one escort searches in 1000mts radius of guard ship and serching if enemy detected within 5000mts of convoy and more than 4 escorts etc . In other words if enemy is detected have one escort guard the most valuable merchant ships which should be in the middle . But not use the guard tactic every time .

Unfortunately there is nothing available in the ship AI to do anything remotely like this :wah:

[MiliardoP]

Hey guys.

Well I have downloaded this mod; while everything looks and responds great, I still have a problem with the crew of an enemy ship, not abandoning ship when I destroy it.

I am not to sure if this is still a problem however; any help will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[TheDarkWraith]

Hey guys.

Well I have downloaded this mod; while everything looks and responds great, I still have a problem with the crew of an enemy ship, not abandoning ship when I destroy it.

I am not to sure if this is still a problem however; any help will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

What are you expecting to see :06: This mod doesn't do anything special when the ship is destoyed. If you want to see lifeboats then you need to download Rongel's lifeboat mod.

[marleymen]

Going to start a new campaign when groceries (1.0) are put in my VIIA.

Until then my crewmen are greasing those torpedos.

:arrgh!:

[MiliardoP]

Err well actually it did not even do anything. Anyways I fixed the problem.

[TheDarkWraith]

Test version of v1.0.0 is available at post #1 at bottom. Ensure to read the reasons why I've released this test version before deciding to test it :DL

[gap]

:yeah:

Thank you man!

[Zedi]

TDW, a million point question... what happens if the escorts are neutral? For example, a convoy in 40 with 1 or 2 american escorts?
How about the neutral ships sailing in a convoy?

[TheDarkWraith]

TDW, a million point question... what happens if the escorts are neutral? For example, a convoy in 40 with 1 or 2 american escorts?
How about the neutral ships sailing in a convoy?

Good question. As of now they are treated no differently than any other unit. I have the ability to see if they are neutral and can make different tactics for them if need be.

[Zedi]

So what they will do on attack? Will they obey to the convoy commander or act independently and set up their own command? Wish you could find a good solution because Im about to add american escort to the early convoys when they were still neutrals.

[TheDarkWraith]

So what they will do on attack? Will they obey to the convoy commander or act independently and set up their own command? Wish you could find a good solution because Im about to add american escort to the early convoys when they were still neutrals.

As it stands now they will obey the convoy commander and role given to them. I can make them be independent but it will cause some problems. The main problem is I don't have control as to which ships get assigned roles from the tactics. It could happen that the roles for the given tactic all get assigned to the neutral units and then nothing will happen when the player attacks the convoy. Or even worse the convoy commander could be a neutral and then nothing happens.
I'll see if there's anything that can be done about this but I don't have high hopes. There just isn't a lot of flexibility built into the AI.

[Trevally.]

By the time the US ships where escorting the convoys - were they not told to attack u-boat even though the US was not at war.
Im sure there are a few examples of this.

[Sepp von Ch.]

It is trueTrevally, but in reality it was different. When the U-Boat attacked the Convoy protected by a US (neutral in this time) escort, these destoryers attacked the German submariners.

US escort attacked normally before entering the war with Germany on german U-Boats. Erich Topp sunk a US destroyer Reuben James, which attacked him and other german U-Boats:

http://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/ships/1189.html

[PL_Andrev]

Does the AI operate with multiple sub targets?
I mean multiplayer games especially.

And what does it mean? I'm sorry, I dont understand:
- Tactics that weren't checking to see if torpedoes were in the water now do so
- Tactics that weren't checking to see if they could possibly ram a sub now do

[TheDarkWraith]

Does the AI operate with multiple sub targets?
I mean multiplayer games especially.

And what does it mean? I'm sorry, I dont understand:

Each unit can only work with one contact at a time. This is the way the devs made it. I don't see any way to make it any better :nope: I can't even force the unit to disband the current contact and go after another. Once it 'picks' a contact it stays with it until some unknown tells it to go after another.

Each tactic used by the AI first checks to see if a torpedo is detected. If so evasive maneuvers are taken. If no torpedoes are detected then it checks to see if a sub is surfaced and close. If so then it will try to ram the sub. If no sub is surfaced and close then it performs the role it was given. These are continually checked while it's performing it's given role.

[The General]

These are continually checked while it's performing it's given role.Is it possible to change the time frame of 'continully checking' to checking once every 30 secs, for example? This may help break the lock on the player's sub that the AI (both escorts and planes that is) sometimes establishes. :hmmm:

[TheDarkWraith]

Is it possible to change the time frame of 'continully checking' to checking once every 30 secs, for example? This may help break the lock on the player's sub that the AI (both escorts and planes that is) sometimes establishes. :hmmm:

To do that would undermine the tactic/role of the unit also. This is because the tactic/role of the unit would be affected by this wait time. Let's say the unit has the plaster role and is within the range of the contact that it varies it's heading based on the contact's bearing from the unit (plus some random amount). If the delay was set to 30 seconds then the unit could not update it's heading to the contact ever update time of the function call but rather every 30 seconds. This would cause the unit to not track the contact and would undermine the plaster tactic/role.

[Dfalle]

Awesome mod bro, ive been useing the newest version you have and its made such a huge differance, its almost an entirely new game.
One thing i have noticed thou is while i was evading a destroyer its made me ctd three times in a row now. Im not sure if its the ira mod or the water disturbance mod. Anyone else have this issue so far? Not complaining by any sense of the word, i really appreciate what youve done...i know your probably tired of us all singing your praises. Thanks just the same


Hmm crashed 2 more times in a row all at the same time, removed all mods and no crash, ill test it more tomarro to see which mod it is thats making me ctd.

[urfisch]

nice mod. even the limited behaviours and the small variety of escorts tactics (as to the dev given limits of "only one sub a time", etc.) show us again, we cant change elemental things of the game. sad thing. even no workaround, to "inject code" to do this?

and what about the ai-subs? any news on that topic, tdw?

;)

[Zedi]

Each unit can only work with one contact at a time. This is the way the devs made it. I don't see any way to make it any better :nope: I can't even force the unit to disband the current contact and go after another. Once it 'picks' a contact it stays with it until some unknown tells it to go after another.

Each tactic used by the AI first checks to see if a torpedo is detected. If so evasive maneuvers are taken. If no torpedoes are detected then it checks to see if a sub is surfaced and close. If so then it will try to ram the sub. If no sub is surfaced and close then it performs the role it was given. These are continually checked while it's performing it's given role.

Too bad that you had no time to check out the test version of MN campaign. Had it tested with the test version 32 and it was amazing to see how the AI worked on threat priority.

I was shadowing a convoy and sent few contact reports. Then I put my uboat into the position and had few long range blind shots. The escorts figured out very fast my position and headed into my direction when the Lufwaffe joined the show. Is when all escort had stopped the search and headed back to the convoy at full speed and engaged the air raid.

The AI vs AI battle was an absolutely amazing show, but I decided to spice up the battle and I sent another blind salvo. Only 1 torpedo hit a target, but the AI escorts considered the air threat bigger, so they ignored my presence.

Really, IRAI is a piece of art as it was in that test version, only one thing to report was the convoy tactic.. they were sailing in circle. And this was their doom as the air raid "reported" the convoy presence and more and more air raid were sent by the campaign engine untill all ship got sunk. At one point there were more planes than ships.

Another example of how the AI manage multiple threat was a long time ago with 0.26 when I had the luck to raid a convoy with the help of a wolfpack. It was a total chaos, but the escorts were hunting all of us. So the AI is capable to deal with multiple targets, is just they losing the capability to use a DC tactic.. like plaster. But they hunt every enemy and in the end they sunk all the AI subs.. thats because at that time they were extremly stupid. The AI sub even surfaced and took multiple hit on hull until he decided that diving is a better idea. The AI sub need special attention because right now they are very retarded.

[TheDarkWraith]

The AI sub even surfaced and took multiple hit on hull until he decided that diving is a better idea. The AI sub need special attention because right now they are very retarded.

The AI subs were totally rewritten in v1.0.0. I think you'll find their behavior excellent now. They are not stupid and will not surface unless it is safe to do so.

[tonschk]

The AI subs were totally rewritten in v1.0.0. I think you'll find their behavior excellent now. They are not stupid and will not surface unless it is safe to do so.

:yeah: Well done TheDarkWraith :DL

[Sepp von Ch.]

When will be released a new official IRAI-version (so far is 1.0 beta)?

[Targor Avelany]

When will be released a new official IRAI-version (so far is 1.0 beta)?

when it is ready?

I think TDW is doing an increddible job and goes beyond with the tools and glitches this game has. I don't see a reason to push and preassure...

[Trevally.]

Im sure people testing and giving feedback would help:DL

[TheDarkWraith]

Im sure people testing and giving feedback would help:DL

This is exactly what I'm waiting on. Once the single unit AI is working as everyone expects then I can make the convoy AI. So far no feedback at all from my test version.

[THE_MASK]

I can test all next week :yep:

[7thSeal]

So far no feedback at all from my test version.

Usually that means its working well. If people are having problems then sure enough you'll get feedback lol. Personally I've been hammering out six day work weeks of overtime and resting on Sundays after church. Enjoying a good game will come around sooner or later for me lol. :D

[Madox58]

Usually that means its working well.

Not really.
Regardless of what a tester feels is OK?
They should report to the Modder that trusted them to test.
Good, Bad, whatever.
That's why you are testing in the first place!
Bad feed back/no feed back from testers results in WTF posts later on.
If you are a tester?
Do the job completely or quit testing.
You are worthless if you don't follow through.

[7thSeal]

Not really.
Regardless of what a tester feels is OK?
They should report to the Modder that trusted them to test.
Good, Bad, whatever.
That's why you are testing in the first place!
Bad feed back/no feed back from testers results in WTF posts later on.
If you are a tester?
Do the job completely or quit testing.
You are worthless if you don't follow through.

I understand that if being sent to private testers that requested the role. Being open to the public and wondering if its right, again depends alot on the complaints being received. I'm glad to see you back privateer! :rock:

[THE_MASK]

Could someone make a pack of single missions so i can test this IRAI version 1 , i dont know how to .

[TheDarkWraith]

Could someone make a pack of single missions so i can test this IRAI version 1 , i dont know how to .

Here are some to get you started:
https://rapidshare.com/files/1531010808/IRAI_AI_testing.zip

from those you can edit them in Mission editor to change what unit vs unit or player :up:

[THE_MASK]

Here are some to get you started:
https://rapidshare.com/files/1531010808/IRAI_AI_testing.zip

from those you can edit them in Mission editor to change what unit vs unit or player :up:Sorry to be a pest , what about file front etc . Send me the links with filefront please .

[TheDarkWraith]

Sorry to be a pest , what about file front etc . Send me the links with filefront please .

http://www.gamefront.com/files/20460061/IRAI_AI_testing_zip

[LordNeuro"Serbia"]

Cammmon beta testers report the TheDarkWraith what is working and what not. I think it is a list u cann do for man giving his free time too make r game beter. I hope u will resive all u need to finish thise mod and relised as final version. I think it is a gr8 and must have addon for the game. I m curently using v0.3 and for the first time in game i have a fight with the planes. It is awsome. Keep up the gr8 work.:up:

[7thSeal]

Cammmon beta testers report the TheDarkWraith what is working and what not.:up:

They will when its not... this long and no complaints its a sure sign that its working well. :DL

I personally have been honing my skills with BC2 in preps for the new BF expected this fall. OK sink my sub I deserve it lol. But I love first person shooters as well as sims.:)

[Targor Avelany]

Cammmon beta testers report the TheDarkWraith what is working and what not. I think it is a list u cann do for man giving his free time too make r game beter. I hope u will resive all u need to finish thise mod and relised as final version. I think it is a gr8 and must have addon for the game. I m curently using v0.3 and for the first time in game i have a fight with the planes. It is awsome. Keep up the gr8 work.:up:
The testing and feedback are being sent, no worries. I'm sure that the irai is getting attention and TDW getting information he requires. There is a lot of people who are very interested and anticipating this release.

Though I think a word from a modded himself would be better, as I am just speculating, while he knows exactly :)

[TheDarkWraith]

The testing and feedback are being sent, no worries. I'm sure that the irai is getting attention and TDW getting information he requires. There is a lot of people who are very interested and anticipating this release.

Though I think a word from a modded himself would be better, as I am just speculating, while he knows exactly :)

So far you are the only one giving me feedback.

All those people who cried saying the AI could find them with pinpoint precision are the ones I'm expecting feedback from. No news is not good news. I'll let this 'test' go on for a little longer and then I'll determine what the AI will do since hardly anyone wants to put their input into it. No one can complain that the AI does this or doesn't do this since you had a chance to speak up.

[THE_MASK]

Mods installed
U-Boat_War_Ace(not-AI)
FX_Update_0_0_16_2_ByTheDarkWraith
NewUIs_TDC_6_6_0_ByTheDarkWraith
NewUIs_TDC_6_6_0_alt_officer_wounded_by_Torpedo
NewUIs_TDC_6_6_0_Real_Navigation
TheDarkWraith_DC_Water_Disturbances_v2_0_SH5
IRAI_1_0_0_ByTheDarkWraith
R.E.M_by_Xrundel_TheBeast_1.2
SUB_hyd_fix_SH5
Depth_Keeping_Problem_TheDarkWraith


Well so far my sub verses the escort . It might as well be versus human because it feels pretty real , how the escort should behave . The escort doesnt drop Dc on me with pinpoint accuracy . I can see that with 1 escort i can have a chance to escape , but not always . It is completely random weather i will survive 10 minutes or 10 hours . I could see that with 2 or more escorts life gets tough in a sub with this AI .

[stoianm]

i am not at my computer ... when i will have the chance i will be glad to test:up:

[TheDarkWraith]

Well so far my sub verses the escort . It might as well be versus human because it feels pretty real , how the escort should behave . The escort doesnt drop Dc on me with pinpoint accuracy . I can see that with 1 escort i can have a chance to escape , but not always . It is completely random weather i will survive 10 minutes or 10 hours . I could see that with 2 or more escorts life gets tough in a sub with this AI .

Did you fire torpedoes on the escort while remaining undetected? If so, how was the search pattern used by the AI to try and find where the torpedoes came from? Does it need revision? I've had some feedback that I need to revise that search pattern so they are a little more 'precise'.

[HanSolo78]

I made a small mission to test the sub ai.. one german merchant vs. an unidine ai sub. the sub was underwater and made an attack onto the merchant.
all torpedoes missed... (90° angle) then the sub itself was not sure if it should track the merchant any longer... turned towards the merchant.. turned away.. steered a circle.. then after some km away app. 3km the sub turned towards the merchant again and started following it.

It would be great if subs could make several attacks runs... with surfacing... get into position... diving .. make attack run.. or fire with deck guns.
But I assume that is a long way to go!?

[Targor Avelany]

Mods installed
U-Boat_War_Ace(not-AI)
FX_Update_0_0_16_2_ByTheDarkWraith
NewUIs_TDC_6_6_0_ByTheDarkWraith
NewUIs_TDC_6_6_0_alt_officer_wounded_by_Torpedo
NewUIs_TDC_6_6_0_Real_Navigation
TheDarkWraith_DC_Water_Disturbances_v2_0_SH5
IRAI_1_0_0_ByTheDarkWraith
R.E.M_by_Xrundel_TheBeast_1.2
SUB_hyd_fix_SH5
Depth_Keeping_Problem_TheDarkWraith


Well so far my sub verses the escort . It might as well be versus human because it feels pretty real , how the escort should behave . The escort doesnt drop Dc on me with pinpoint accuracy . I can see that with 1 escort i can have a chance to escape , but not always . It is completely random weather i will survive 10 minutes or 10 hours . I could see that with 2 or more escorts life gets tough in a sub with this AI .

Interesting... I have a completely different experience. Will have to test more.

[hsj45]

Do this mod make the ships and planes better in a campaign.

[TheDarkWraith]

Do this mod make the ships and planes better in a campaign.

This mod affects the AI period. Doesn't matter if it's historic mission or campaign they will behave according to how the mod defines them.

[hsj45]

Thanks for the info TheDarkWraith ill try it.:salute:

[TheDarkWraith]

I made a small mission to test the sub ai.. one german merchant vs. an unidine ai sub. the sub was underwater and made an attack onto the merchant.
all torpedoes missed... (90° angle) then the sub itself was not sure if it should track the merchant any longer... turned towards the merchant.. turned away.. steered a circle.. then after some km away app. 3km the sub turned towards the merchant again and started following it.

It would be great if subs could make several attacks runs... with surfacing... get into position... diving .. make attack run.. or fire with deck guns.
But I assume that is a long way to go!?

Due to the sub AI being very 'dumb' I keep them protected from harm by keeping them submerged unless it's absolutely safe to surface.
This turning towards merchant, turning away, etc. is due to the AI sub trying to get into firing position to fire torps. Yes it looks dumb but that's the only way, so far, I can get them to attack reliably.
The steering of a circle is due to being too close to the contact. It does a circle to try and put some distance between it and the target. It's not allowed to fire torps unless the distance between it and target is > 400m.
I find it strange that it went to 3km before it decided to turn and attack the target again. That behavior I would expect with a warship but not a merchant.
Can you send me that single mission so I can test it and see what the AI is 'thinking' in-game?

As far as firing guns, I can't get them to fire guns. I think it's because they are using the same gun as the player and thus it has to be manned before you can fire it. I haven't found a way to get the AI to man the gun. Next thing I have to try is giving them a different deckgun. Maybe a clone of another ship's gun that can fire without crew might do the trick.

[TheDarkWraith]

Thanks for the info TheDarkWraith ill try it.:salute:

You do not want to use v1.0.0 as of now. It is for testing of single unit AI currently. Once the single unit AI is behaving as expected then I'll write the convoy and group AI as they rely on the single unit AI.

[TheDarkWraith]

Interesting... I have a completely different experience. Will have to test more.

That is the best part of IRAI. You will never have the same experience :D The AI is totally random which is how it should be.

[THE_MASK]

The escort followed the torps general direction , but not exact . The search patten is perfect for 1 escort i think . It just seems real . What i like about this version is that with 1 escort its a game of skill and luck combined .

[THE_MASK]

Do the AI subs take depth under keel as a consideration ?

[TheDarkWraith]

The escort followed the torps general direction , but not exact . The search patten is perfect for 1 escort i think . It just seems real . What i like about this version is that with 1 escort its a game of skill and luck combined .

Excellent. That's what they should do. It should appear that they are searching randomly in your general direction (if you are still undetected). They may lock onto you during that searching and then again they may not. It's luck if they find you. This is how it should be since all they can do is follow from where the torps came from and search all around that area.

How is it with more than 1? Should be a bit more challenging as you'll have more than 1 searching for you. They will still each search randomly in your general direction.

Do the AI subs take depth under keel as a consideration ?

No. They are way too dumb to think that intelligently. I tell them to go a specific depth and they try to make it.

Has anyone done any tests with Capitol ships? That's something I spent a lot of time on.

[Targor Avelany]

I will run some testing today/tomorrow.

I wanna figure out why in my case the experience is different, so I'll be harassing this mod a lot! :)

[THE_MASK]

I forget to say that my IRAI non merchant difficulty settings are
# for non-merchants
VISUAL_DIFFICULTY_MIN = 85;
VISUAL_DIFFICULTY_MAX = 95;
HYDROPHONE_DIFFICULTY_MIN = 85;
HYDROPHONE_DIFFICULTY_MAX = 95;
RADAR_DIFFICULTY_MIN = 85;
RADAR_DIFFICULTY_MAX = 95;
SONAR_DIFFICULTY_MIN = 85;
SONAR_DIFFICULTY_MAX = 95;

[LordNeuro"Serbia"]

When u spot the convoy and send contact report, das theat trigers the planes too atack the convoy. I didnt have any luck in seing the planes atack the convoy like same caluns have , and i will shore low too see it. Or planes atacking convoys r rendom event.

[parazaine]

You say to remove previous versions before using this test version....if you are using MO then that's not possible. Is it possible to test this with the current MO?

[TheDarkWraith]

You say to remove previous versions before using this test version....if you are using MO then that's not possible. Is it possible to test this with the current MO?

You could try it. If it CTDs then you know your answer.

[Targor Avelany]

You could try it. If it CTDs then you know your answer.

It is possible to test it with MO - I tested it. But I think it messes the AI royally, making ships react absolutely crazy... Kind of fun to watch...

[Magic1111]

Hi Folks !

After two weeks away from the forum my question: The V1.0.0 is not released yet, this is correct ? :hmmm:

Best regards,
Magic

[Targor Avelany]

Hi Folks !

After two weeks away from the forum my question: The V1.0.0 is not released yet, this is correct ? :hmmm:

Best regards,
Magic

Not yet, as far as I know. Needs more testing feedback, as far as I understand.

[Magic1111]

Not yet, as far as I know. Needs more testing feedback, as far as I understand.

Okay, many thanks ! :up:

[hsj45]

What is the best mod to use that modders made to fix the AI:arrgh!:

[Targor Avelany]

What is the best mod to use that modders made to fix the AI:arrgh!:
this one.

[Alians2004]

I perfom the main company. Second mission.. and I encountered with problem like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SXGvgnc5BM
Than I found IRAI and installed it using JSGME. But when I was in sea at periscope depth, one of escort ships began behave same.
Have you tried to correct this problem?

[TheDarkWraith]

I perfom the main company. Second mission.. and I encountered with problem like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SXGvgnc5BM
Than I found IRAI and installed it using JSGME. But when I was in sea at periscope depth, one of escort ships began behave same.
Have you tried to correct this problem?

If you're trying to use v1.0.0 then I can't guarantee anything. It's a test version for testing purposes only. What version of IRAI are you referring to?

[Alians2004]

IRAI_0_0_30_ByTheDarkWraith

[TheDarkWraith]

I have no control over the AI's collision avoidance routines. Those are hard coded.

[Alians2004]

Could you tell me, if it is normal, when I come in an enemy port (at periscope depth) and begin attack enemy ships, they do nothing (they could though run engines and try escape from me).
Only escorts notice me, but rarely attack me. What can be done that this escorts annoy me until the last.
Thanks.

[PL_Andrev]

It is normal.
The ships docked at port are "permanently" docked.
It is stupid - I know.

[Targor Avelany]

Any update on this, TDW? any particular tests that still need to be run?

[vlad29]

Any update on this, TDW? any particular tests that still need to be run?

Interesting question:DL If to look at mod lists of guys in other threads seems that nobody now is testing it. Everybody are using IRAI 0.0.30. May be the new edited mods that need restarting the campaign cause this matter? Let's continue testing:up:

[fromhell]

i like hunting around near gibralter and i run into a hell of a lot of aircraft, but none have ever attacked me, is this normal?
thanks for a great mod
one other thing, is there anyway you or i can reduce the number of taskforces in game, it is abit to much
thanks:salute:

[mia389]

I am not using v1.0 because it says thins Test version of v1.0.0. This test version will allow you to test the single unit AI only. If you try to use this test version with any kind of ship convoys it will fail miserably

I am in 41 and all I see are convoys. I would use it if earlier in career though.

[fromhell]

laugh i almost cried, decided to make atrip into the atlantic for a change and got attacked by an aircraft, caused so much damage i had to limp back to port.:D

[fromhell]

I am not using v1.0 because it says thins

I am in 41 and all I see are convoys. I would use it if earlier in career though.


mia389, where do you go fishing, to see convoys, tell me and ill go there, i find them very hard to find.:salute:

[zeus]

Hello!!

A question:

how is the project "IRAI 1.0.0 TDW"?

[THE_MASK]

is it possible to add to a cfg file .
Say the sensors cfg file as an example .
;Submarine player sensors detection parameters
Say add a line to the ;Hydrophone
such as
Enemy surface factor=50.0 ;[m2]

[0rpheus]

Is there anything left to test on this? Happy to help out if so.

I suppose convoys are the last big thing left to do.. currently with IRAI I've had some nightmare scenarios involving convoys in heavily patrolled areas, on one occasion having over 30 (!) Heavy Cruisers, DDs and Battleships circling me after an attack as any passing military convoys have gotten stuck in as well! Somewhat over the top methinks! ;)

I'd be interested to know how the difficulty settings really work, as well. Currently if I attack a military convoy, they ALWAYS know exactly where I am, regardless of silent running, 170m depth and 1knot speed. Even with engines off they still 'see' me. It's getting to the point that it's not worth attacking a convoy of military craft as you've basically no chance whatsoever of escape.

I've tweaked the difficulty settings to match Sober's, but still get crucified if I even sneeze in a DDs direction. I'm not expecting to attack and slip away unnoticed, but surely there must be a way to tweak the values so there's at least a chance of being unheard at 170m, 1knot and silent running (which is the lowest/slowest possible afaik).

Also, I assume that if I'm very deep, silent and go all stop, I shouldn't be visible on their active sonar (too deep) and 99% invisible on passive sonar. I expect them to DC the last known position pretty heavily, but I've seen them do it for upwards of 24hrs plus! I thought 'playing possum' and stopping deep & silent was a fairly common uboat tactic... but it doesn't seem to work!

Suggestions? :)

[Stormfly]

Is there anything left to test on this? Happy to help out if so.

I suppose convoys are the last big thing left to do.. currently with IRAI I've had some nightmare scenarios involving convoys in heavily patrolled areas, on one occasion having over 30 (!) Heavy Cruisers, DDs and Battleships circling me after an attack as any passing military convoys have gotten stuck in as well! Somewhat over the top methinks! ;)

I'd be interested to know how the difficulty settings really work, as well. Currently if I attack a military convoy, they ALWAYS know exactly where I am, regardless of silent running, 170m depth and 1knot speed. Even with engines off they still 'see' me. It's getting to the point that it's not worth attacking a convoy of military craft as you've basically no chance whatsoever of escape.

I've tweaked the difficulty settings to match Sober's, but still get crucified if I even sneeze in a DDs direction. I'm not expecting to attack and slip away unnoticed, but surely there must be a way to tweak the values so there's at least a chance of being unheard at 170m, 1knot and silent running (which is the lowest/slowest possible afaik).

Also, I assume that if I'm very deep, silent and go all stop, I shouldn't be visible on their active sonar (too deep) and 99% invisible on passive sonar. I expect them to DC the last known position pretty heavily, but I've seen them do it for upwards of 24hrs plus! I thought 'playing possum' and stopping deep & silent was a fairly common uboat tactic... but it doesn't seem to work!

Suggestions? :)

i use the same difficulty settings as Sober, and sometimes it is realy hard to escape as it was in reality, but over the time you learn your stuff...

say, which year you`re testing this, i did till end '42...

one remark:
"Also, I assume that if I'm very deep, silent and go all stop, I shouldn't be visible on their active sonar (too deep) and 99% invisible on passive sonar."

you assume wrong, the active sonar is reduced effective or unable to hit your sub if:

- you are out of detection range.
- You are horizontaly out of detection area.
- your are verticaly out of detection area because you are deep enough and the escort pinging you is close enough.
- your sub`s profile is small enough and far enough away.
- your hull`s skin is made of some secret materials.
- enemys sonar crew is unskilled or tired.
- type of enemy vessel and equipment.

...in your case and reason nr. 3 above means the active sonar beam have a limited down angle operating, which means, you may slip into it`s blind area if you`re deep enough and the escoprt is close enough.

The Problem begins here if they hunt you in a coordinated group, means one escort keep enough distanace, just for pinging you while you are deep and radio your position for other escorts dept charging you. It could also be, that 2 or 3 escorts do a cross ping job to direct some nice charges directly over your pos, before and after you. :O:

also if youre a smart Kaleun, and they barly can ping/hear you, they try to wake you using large carpet dept charging tactics, then you just need the nerves to take some damage till they give up or run out of charges while presenting a very bad solution for them. :arrgh!:

[0rpheus]

Thanks for the reply Stormfly. I guess in terms of year we're talking no later than '42, as the farthest I've got so far is the second Mediterranean campaign.

Everything I know about Silent Hunter AI I know from SH4. This post, courtesy of Ducimus explains how the active sonar works in 3/4 and is what I base my questions on: http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ai.htm

I'm assuming that things are the same in SH5 (if they're not then all my reasoning is flawed lol) - that is to say, below a certain depth active sonar is no use as you're too low for the ping to reflect from the boat. And like you said, you have to be vertically below the active sonar's area of effect and presenting as little aspect as possible. That much I understand.

Now in SH5, on the TAI the enemy active sonar is represented by the red cone, and passive by the yellowish circle. The lower you go, the smaller the red cone gets, until it disappears entirely. It's at this point that I would expect enemy active sonar to be useless, and for them to switch to the passive - which, if I'm doing one knot, at say 160 metres should make me damn hard to hear.

But in practice I'm not seeing this. Below Active Sonar depth, at one knot, 160m depth & silent running, they still ping and still follow me around like hawks, sometimes literally for 24+ hours - even though none display active sonar cones. So how are they detecting me? Is it solely on passive sonar and even at that depth/speed I'm still audible? Going any deeper is awkward as the sub won't keep depth past 170metres at 1 or even 2 knots (for some reason I don't understand, even though the hull is safe a little lower than that), and going all stop for any length of time often leads to me being crushed by the hull of a ship killed by collision while trying to DC me. :hmmm:

The carpet-charging tactics I could understand, and probably figure enough out from the TAI and DC pattern to know that's what was going on.. it's when they literally follow me like hawks at the lowest possible depth & speed, when their active is (theoretically) useless that's making me scratch my head... especially if playing possum doesn't/can't work.

What about thermal layers? I've never heard anyone mention it for 5, but it was often a key factor in SH4.