[WIP] IRAI (Intelligent Random AI)

[PL_Andrev]

Played historical mission PQ-17 with IRAI 0.18:

Observations:
1) At my second game all merchants were in front of all escort ships,
2) At first game merchants no zigzag, no up or down speed (I was only on periscope depth, so they didn't see me, but should be alarmed, right?)
3) Ships at close range to attacked ship were slower (1-2kt), no zigzag, I think that they should escape from attacked ship at 70-100% of full speed,

But saw something special of AI sub:
AI sub stops, next emergency back to avoid DC form attacking escort ship, after that full speed...
No next attack, but really impressive!
:yeah:

[Arclight]

Some other tactic canceling the run? Iirc, the devs just made the DD do a straight run, trigger the DC firing at x distance and then disable DC firing at x distance, letting the DD return to "follow" tactic at the end of the straight run.

:hmmm:

Ramming behaviour interupting? Maybe check the tactic properly checks subs depth.


(yeah just guessing, haven't looked at your work yet, just some stuff I remember from the original files. :doh:)

[Zedi]

I'll have to run the new wolfpack mission and see what's going on. At least one escort should've been staying behind to protect convoy. Or this mission wasn't setup as a group and thus every ship is it's own commander and would explain everything.
Here is the mission setup: Every ship and sub in the mission is set to elite/aggressive. All are in groups, except the player ofc. The merchant group have only 2 escorts, but... the leader is a merchant. Hmmm.. maybe thats the problem, the escorts have no "command center" :hmmm: But even so.. they should attack the enemy not flee. Is interesting that in the new wolpack mission they backed up to the surprise convoy and joined their leader...

I will change the settings for the merchant convoy and put one of the escorts as leader, this should fix the problem with them fleeing. I will update the topic soon as I'm done.

They must be trying to go into reverse? That's the only way I can see them detonating the DCs. I'll have to put a condition in that says if their speed is > some value then they are allowed to DC. I'm just puzzled as to how they are blowing themselves up. In this example you were clearly deep and thus the DCs had to be going deep also.
Yeah, forgot to mention that I saw that too.. escorts going backwards and droping DC on their own ship, eventually damaging them selfs and sinking. It's similar to what happened in Silent Hunter mod back in days.

LE: Updated the wolpack mission (http://www.zumodrive.com/share/6QxlYTczZm), now the merchant convoy leader is the first escort. I have no time to test it, but now they should not flee... hope so. This mission consist of 2 wolpacks attacking from 2 different direction and a solid task force that come from south a bit later on, they should join the party after the wolpacks engage the merchants.

[PL_Andrev]

Next strange issue spotted on last IRAI 0.18:

I fired four torpedoes in front of the first BB in Italian taskforce - they missed, however the BB was alerted (torpedo spotted!). He looked as began to zigzag - turned left after few second turned right at full speed (I see and think: is OK!), but after that this BB started make a wheels without interruption, at full speed all time.
Other ships (BB, CA and escorts) have not responded and keep their course. Not zigzag, not accelerate, the convoy's escort did not start to look for hidden submarine...

[TheDarkWraith]

Ok, so i've seen a really strange behaviour now. I've met several convoy's and as soon as i hit my first target the whole convoy slows down to 0-3 knots. Happens every time with the latest version. It's like a turkey shoot. I can sink 10-12 ships every time...

figured out why this is happening. I set the minimum percentage speed that they can set to 25%. I've upped that to 60% now. This means they can change speed anywhere from 60%-100% of their max speed * throttle ratio (throttle ratio is different than throttle). I've also changed the base time that they can change speed from 2.0 minutes to 1.5 minutes

Solution doesn't work. Played included in SH5 the Pedestal mission with IRAI 0.18 and I had hunted two alone aircraft carriers.

figured out this bug also. The game treats carriers as Battleships...go figure...so their tactic was being overridden by the battleship's tactics. I've made changes to correct this.

This treating of carriers as battleships explains the post above also.

[Ragtag]

Nice work TDW :)

[TheDarkWraith]

fixed the battleship and carrier issues. But I've noticed one big problem - carrier doesn't have any hydrophone or sonar?? Haven't checked the battleship.
I had to rewrite a good portion of the ship AI to account for the carriers and battleships. Still have to rewrite more after I figure out what to do with them when they are part of a convoy that has escorts. Do I send them out with the escorts or do I have them stay with the convoy? If they are part of an HK group they go with the HK group (but the hydrophone bug mentioned above could prevent them from following the group).
Also changed the way escorts were divied out (for convoys - doesn't apply to HK groups). Before it was x amount get assigned to the contact and the rest were assigned nothing (so they were free to act on their own accord). Noticed that this was problematic as they would peel off from the convoy and attack the contact. Now the remaining escorts are assigned the role of guard convoy to keep them with the convoy.

[PL_Andrev]

fixed the battleship and carrier issues.
Yeaaaa!
:yeah:

But I've noticed one big problem - carrier doesn't have any hydrophone or sonar?? Haven't checked the battleship.
Carriers and battleships (and other heavy units as CA or CL) were not responsible for submarine detection.

[CaptainMattJ.]

the ONLY problem with these mods is it adds on the the rediculous campaign. not only are the spawns total BS, but with this mod it makes it so that in the rare event such a convoy or even worse TASK FORCe comes along, youll either get less, get nothing but DC, or just die. i say we also need a serious campaign aleration rather than just cutting obj in half. that combined with this will make an excellent SH5.

[Zedi]

True. With IRAI, playing the campaign is very hard. And I'm thinking to those ridiculous missions about sinking BB's and carriers. Even with Lite Campaign on, Mare Nostrum is no go with IRAI enabled. It's highly required a mod team to come up with an alternate campaign, or modify the original and remove the BB missions.

[The General]

I figured out why this is happening. I set the minimum percentage speed that they can set to 25%. I've upped that to 60% now. This means they can change speed anywhere from 60%-100% of their max speed * throttle ratio (throttle ratio is different than throttle). I've also changed the base time that they can change speed from 2.0 minutes to 1.5 minutes.:up:

[PL_Andrev]

the ONLY problem with these mods is it adds on the the rediculous campaign. not only are the spawns total BS, but with this mod it makes it so that in the rare event such a convoy or even worse TASK FORCe comes along, youll either get less, get nothing but DC, or just die.
Did you read the documentation or changes report for mod?
At last version TDW put the "difficulty level" or IRAI mod, so if campaign is too hard for you, you can decrease the level of AI.

[PL_Andrev]

figured out why this is happening. I set the minimum percentage speed that they can set to 25%. I've upped that to 60% now. This means they can change speed anywhere from 60%-100% of their max speed * throttle ratio (throttle ratio is different than throttle). I've also changed the base time that they can change speed from 2.0 minutes to 1.5 minutes
Perfect solution!
The question is: what the max speed is?
Max speed of single ship, max speed is current speed or max speed of convoy speed?
Maybe somebody will create a mission with small convoy of Victory ships and slowest LargeStreamer with 6 kt (max is 17), after attack all victory ships should have more than 10kt.
Please be sure TDW, that other ships in the convoy are alarmed too.

[The General]

If the Campaign is too hard for you, you can decrease the level of AI.One of the reasons the Campaign is harder than need be, is that the Aircfraft shells make mincemeat of your pressure hull. That is not very realsitic.

[elanaiba]

ah so the game reads these mis files during the game and not just at game start?

Yes, said the programmer. Maybe he's wrong :) But let's say the game automatically loads the new campaign layer as soon as the achievement happens.

Sorry for the delay - I promised an aswer on Monday but I had some family emergency over the weekend.

Now I need to think on how this could practically work ....

[Ragtag]

TDW, i know your'e busy but is there a chance that you could implement a fix for the "maintain depth below 75m" bug into this mod or your UI mod?`

There is a fix out but it is unfortunatly incompatible with your mods.

Thanks :)

[janh]

Yes, said the programmer. Maybe he's wrong :) But let's say the game automatically loads the new campaign layer as soon as the achievement happens.

Now I need to think on how this could practically work ....

Hmmh, sounds like this would be a complicated workaround, but at least a way. Maybe that way you could also program an external tool to control a "strategic AI" to define convoy routes, plane basement and Warship Task Forces depending on player actions (a crucial point for a warship mod like the one for SHIII).

But I wonder whether one couldn't develop a more direct way in the SHV engine that a contact report etc spawns a script trigger that could then contain some sort of script that generates pathways for nearby units etc.?
Maybe -- if there ever will be another -- this could be done in patch?

[Topo65]

TDW, first, thanks for your work. :yeah:

Then, when I install this mod, the sonar in my sub turn the hydrophone very fast. I can move it left o right, but is very difficulty ear a specific bearing. Is this normal or I are doing something wrong?

Sorry my english. Thanks!

[jwilliams]

TDW, first, thanks for your work. :yeah:

Then, when I install this mod, the sonar in my sub turn the hydrophone very fast. I can move it left o right, but is very difficulty ear a specific bearing. Is this normal or I are doing something wrong?

Sorry my english. Thanks!

I also have this problem, the smallest amount i can make the needle move is 4 degrees using the Mouse wheel. But thought it was always like this.

Yes very difficult to get a precise bearing if the needle will only go 041 degrees or 045 degrees and the noise is at say 043 degrees. And my sound guys says "No sound contact":damn:

[TheDarkWraith]

I also have this problem, the smallest amount i can make the needle move is 4 degrees using the Mouse wheel. But thought it was always like this.

Yes very difficult to get a precise bearing if the needle will only go 041 degrees or 045 degrees and the noise is at say 043 degrees. And my sound guys says "No sound contact":damn:

I think I might know why.

v0.0.19 is going to blow your mind :rock: The stuff I got convoys to do and the escorts attached to those convoys is beyond awesome. I'd say that the ship code was about a 60% rewrite and I added more tactics to it and finished up the subs :D

EDIT:

yep, the hydrophone problem was what I thought it was. Fixed.

[tonschk]

v0.0.19 is going to blow your mind :rock:



:DL TheDarkWraith you are my HERO :rock:

[Topo65]

Thanks TDW!!! :yeah:

[jwilliams]

I think I might know why.

v0.0.19 is going to blow your mind :rock:

:o

The stuff I got convoys to do and the escorts attached to those convoys is beyond awesome.

:o:o Cant wait to try this. :yeah:


yep, the hydrophone problem was what I thought it was. Fixed.

Well done, good work. Thanks :salute:

[7thSeal]

v0.0.19 is going to blow your mind :rock: .

Looking forward to trying it out... :salute:

[Will-Rommel]

Yeah me too ! This mod evolve faster than i patrol !

[TheDarkWraith]

LE: Updated the wolpack mission (http://www.zumodrive.com/share/6QxlYTczZm), now the merchant convoy leader is the first escort. I have no time to test it, but now they should not flee... hope so. This mission consist of 2 wolpacks attacking from 2 different direction and a solid task force that come from south a bit later on, they should join the party after the wolpacks engage the merchants.

I've been using Magnum's latest wolfpack mission to help me modify/add/fix the AI. Noticed one very bad bug while using this mission and almost completing the whole AI rewrite - subs will attack and hunt subs of the same country (or side). Magnum has a wolfpack of 3 subs coming from the left side of the convoy and a wolfpack of 3 subs coming from the right side of the convoy. When all the subs first spot the convoy everything is fine. As they get closer to the convoy and they all start to submerge is when they switch to targeting the other 'side'. Subs on the right and trying to take out subs from the left :damn: I've got a great shot of this happening (this is one AI sub hunting another AI sub that was setting up for an attack on the convoy):
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=364&pictureid=2937

It almost seems like the subs are treated as BATTLESHIPS when they submerge and thus is why they are hunted.

Convoys will aggravate you all to no end now. The merchants no longer scatter when they detect you - they and the guard convoy escorts follow the 'leader' upfront leading the convoy. Whatever the leader does they all do. I gave the leader the ability to speed up/slow down and change course at will. The guard convoy escorts stay with the convoy - they will not stray outside of it. Their purpose it to attack you if you enter inside the convoy. The escorts put out on patrol duty will stay with the convoy until a contact is spotted. They will go and investigate the contact but once their distance from the convoy exceeds a value they return to the convoy and join up where they were.

HK groups are much worse now. Just avoid them if at all possible :D

[PL_Andrev]

The merchants no longer scatter when they detect you - they and the guard convoy escorts follow the 'leader' upfront leading the convoy. Whatever the leader does they all do.

What happens if the convoy's leader sunk?
There is a known bug existed in SH3: sametimes after leader sunk the new leader is... an escort ship. After that the convoy is looping by self.
Could you add new tactics to protect this situation?
Maybe good solution is new lider with mass >3000 or every ship keep individual zigzags, speed, course...

IRAI 0.0.19? - great news!

[Zedi]

...
It almost seems like the subs are treated as BATTLESHIPS when they submerge and thus is why they are hunted.
...
So that's why no merchant was sunk in this mission now, the subs fight each other :dead: We are so lucky to have you TDW, I'm 200% convinced that IRAI should be renamed as patch 1.3 ! Thank you!

[Gato76]

Great job with the AI DarkWraith,is a totally different game now,i can't wait for the new version. :rock:

[TheDarkWraith]

What happens if the convoy's leader sunk?
There is a known bug existed in SH3: sametimes after leader sunk the new leader is... an escort ship. After that the convoy is looping by self.
Could you add new tactics to protect this situation?
Maybe good solution is new lider with mass >3000 or every ship keep individual zigzags, speed, course...

if the convoy's leader is sunk a new leader will be 'crowned' :O: Really, a new leader will take over. And due to the way I made this work the rest of the convoy will follow the new leader (currently as long as it's an escort or battleship that takes the role) :D

[Hartmann]

subs will attack and hunt subs of the same country (or side). Magnum has a wolfpack of 3 subs coming from the left side of the convoy and a wolfpack of 3 subs coming from the right side of the convoy. When all the subs first spot the convoy everything is fine. As they get closer to the convoy and they all start to submerge is when they switch to targeting the other 'side'. Subs on the right and trying to take out subs from the left :damn: I've got a great shot of this happening (this is one AI sub hunting another AI sub that was setting up for an attack on the convoy):




Be agressive !!! like hungry Sharks looking for food :D

But Is incredible the work done until now and in what state were the original script files

[TheDarkWraith]

Be agressive !!! like hungry Sharks looking for food :D

it would be great if these subs were hunting the enemy but they are hunting their own kind (same country)...:damn:

[Zedi]

it would be great if these subs were hunting the enemy but they are hunting their own kind (same country)...:damn:

Maybe that's why the devs scripted the wolpacks and AI subs to avoid any conflict and just flee :/

I find it very hard to keep back any mean comment about those in charge with the script part in SH5, people who got paid and had about at least 1 year to do what u did in just few weeks without any payment. Shame on them and a very sincere thank you for all your effort. Bravo.

[Barso]

I agree.
What TDW has done so far is beyond legendary and in all of his own time unpaid too.
It cannot be said enough TDW but your work does not go without notice.
It can't be said enough but this game needs a definitive 1.3 patch that the modders need to be consulted with for the them to continue from.

[TheDarkWraith]

v0.0.19 released. See post #1 for details. Still trying to sort out this whole sub hunt sub thing..:hmmm: Let me know what you all think of convoys with merchants and HK groups now :cool: If they don't cause you much aggravation I'd be surprised.

[Krauter]

:wah: There goes my next easy patrol :cry:

Happy Times My Butt :haha:

Cheers TDW You're making this game amazing :)

Krauter

[Lemke]

We are so lucky to have you TDW, I'm 200% convinced that IRAI should be renamed as patch 1.3 ! Thank you!

Damn right!!! :sunny:

[TheDarkWraith]

I'm thinking about rewriting the HK group tactics. Do you all currently like the way they 'behave' or do you think they should model the way the new ship convoy AI does? Here's how HK groups behave currently:

- there is a commander of the group
- once a contact is detected the commander divies out the role that the group is going to do to every ship in the group (including itself)
- once a ship has it's role it's free to go off and fulfill that role. That means that the ship can depart the group immediately and is free to target other contacts

Here's what I'm thinking about doing:

- there is a commander of the group
- once a contact is detected the commander divies out the role that the group is going to do to every ship in the group (including itself)
- if the contact is > some distance then the group stays coherent - no one is allowed to leave the group. Once the contact is < some distance then each member of the group is free to leave and go off and fulfill it's role
- if the commander of the group distance to contact becomes > another distance he calls for the group to reorder - everyone rejoins the group until the distance to contact becomes <= this another distance which then they are free to leave the group and go off on their own

Or does someone have any better ideas?

[Will-Rommel]

One strategy i would like to see in HK group (if possible to do so) would be a type of carpet bombing with depth charges by 2-4 destroyers aligned.

They would pass over the submarine, all running at the same speed and at a constant distance, and letting lose the charges. The effect would be a corridor of charges maximazing the chances that a hit is scored on the sub even with hard to port maneuvers.

I guess it's alot of scripting tho, but it is historically correct. It was depicted in some deptcharges tech book i readed on this forum some times ago.

[PL_Andrev]

if the convoy's leader is sunk a new leader will be 'crowned' :O: Really, a new leader will take over. And due to the way I made this work the rest of the convoy will follow the new leader (currently as long as it's an escort or battleship that takes the role) :D

I'm not sure you understand me.
In SH3 the problem is when leader is sunk (it is the most valuable warship or merchant at first line). Of course the other ship is a leader, but sometimes the "next leader" is a escort ship which is attacking a detected submarine.
Now, if all ships in convoy are doing this same thing what the leader does...
:-?

[TheDarkWraith]

One strategy i would like to see in HK group (if possible to do so) would be a type of carpet bombing with depth charges by 2-4 destroyers aligned.

They would pass over the submarine, all running at the same speed and at a constant distance, and letting lose the charges. The effect would be a corridor of charges maximazing the chances that a hit is scored on the sub even with hard to port maneuvers.

I guess it's alot of scripting tho, but it is historically correct. It was depicted in some deptcharges tech book i readed on this forum some times ago.

it's actually not that much scripting to do to make that work. I haven't played with those functions but I like the idea so I'll have to look into this. Like the HK groups weren't hard enough already :-?

[PL_Andrev]

v0.0.19
- gave convoys with merchants the ability to slow down and change direction when they have a contact sighted


Hmmm...
Why the merchants have ability to slow down only? Many ships can use higher speed than convoy speed and this is natural - if you bike and see a bad dog are you slow down or accurate?

[Zedi]

One strategy i would like to see in HK group (if possible to do so) would be a type of carpet bombing with depth charges by 2-4 destroyers aligned.

They would pass over the submarine, all running at the same speed and at a constant distance, and letting lose the charges. The effect would be a corridor of charges maximazing the chances that a hit is scored on the sub even with hard to port maneuvers.

I guess it's alot of scripting tho, but it is historically correct. It was depicted in some deptcharges tech book i readed on this forum some times ago.

It's accurate and more than that, this way the escort will not be forced to go back and for to avoid each other, so the hunt will be less chaotic. I agree, some kind of strategy should be implemented for the escorts, at least for those who are in charge with the sub hunt.

[TheDarkWraith]

Hmmm...
Why the merchants have ability to slow down only? Many ships can use higher speed than convoy speed and this is natural - if you bike and see a bad dog are you slow down or accurate?

They have the ability to change speed from some min % to some max % of their max speed * throttle ratio so they can either slow down or speed up

[TheDarkWraith]

Antar brought up a good point via PM that the merchant convoy sometimes turns into where the contact is. This is correct becuase it's a random value that gets added to it's current heading. I've changed this behavior now in v0.0.20. The convoy leader looks to see where the contact is located in reference to his current heading and turns away from the contact via some random value (which makes the whole convoy turn away from the contact).

[reaper7]

:up: Just keeps getting better.

[Capt Jack Harkness]

Hmmm...
Why the merchants have ability to slow down only? Many ships can use higher speed than convoy speed and this is natural - if you bike and see a bad dog are you slow down or accurate?

Well in the case of a submarine attack any change in speed will mess up the sub's firing solution, the bigger the change the better, so if you're already near top speed it may just be more effective to slow down.

[TheDarkWraith]

Well in the case of a submarine attack any change in speed will mess up the sub's firing solution, the bigger the change the better, so if you're already near top speed it may just be more effective to slow down.

which was exactly my thinking also. The convoy commander currently has the ability to change speed from 35-75% of his max speed * throttle ratio. If he changes speed then the whole convoy changes speed.

Just wrote tactics for the 'carpet DCing' by HK escorts aligned side by side. Now to see if it works......

[longam]

Just an FYI.

GME is reporting conflict installing IRAI 0.0.19 with TDC 4.0.3 installed.

conflict file - uboat_sensors.sim

[TheDarkWraith]

Just an FYI.

GME is reporting conflict installing IRAI 0.0.19 with TDC 4.0.3 installed.

conflict file - uboat_sensors.sim

yes, it's ok. IRAI has to be installed after the UIs mod :up:

[THE_MASK]

With 19 i notice i have hydrophone on the surface . I dont want it . I am not willing to overwrite with the no hydrophone on surface mod because i dont know if it will overwrite other things .

[Capt Jack Harkness]

With 19 i notice i have hydrophone on the surface . I dont want it . I am not willing to overwrite with the no hydrophone on surface mod because i dont know if it will overwrite other things .

Actually, on that note, is it possible to make the player sub's hydrophone range speed dependent? The GHG and Balkon Gerät should be functional on the surface but the flow noise at surface cruising speeds (not to mention racket from the diesels) would severely limit range.

[Zedi]

TDW, I hope that maybe someday you will find time to look a bit closer into the capital ships behavior. Last night after more than a hour of searching in happy times campaign, found in the middle of Atlantic a massive task force that included 1 BB, 1 carrrier and 1 Dido.. whatever is that, ofc with a massive escort group. Night, heavy storm with low visibility, perfect conditions for an attack. So I sneaked inside the escort circle and had time to shot 3 torpedos. The 1 for the carrier was a miss, the BB sunk. So the show begins.

At 180m deep I heard some very strange noises, very different than a DC, more like a collision. So I used the external camera and right above me I saw the horror. The Dido collided with an escort and was in flames, the DD sunk. A bit later on, 2 other escorts sunk trying to get out from the circling carrier path. To keep things short, the result was 5 escorts and finally the Dido lost by their own damage.

Now, I think this part should be somehow rewritten because is totally wrong that a capital ship start hunt a sub. I saw even the mighty carrier passing many times above me and speeding up like he was about to drop some DC's. In this particular case, the capital ships should not slow down, stop or more than anything.. hunt the sub. They should speed up to max and just go, so there is no way that another torpedo will chase them. Then few escort can stay behind and play with the sub, but the capital ships should run away at max speed from the ambush scene, they are not meant to fight subs, they are to valuable ships to waste time in hunting invisible enemies.

The carrier was acting right by sending out planes, but those planes were not watching the crime scene, but fly away in long patrols and returning later when low on fuel. Dunno if you can fix this, it might be scripted in the campaign files..

[eon850aye]

:wah: There goes my next easy patrol :cry:

Happy Times My Butt :haha:


Indeed, just took on a Cimmaron tanker with my deckgun, fired first shot from around 2.8km, as soon as I got into range of her machine guns(I imagine they are AA),
they turned my hull into swiss cheese (46%), dag nam it, back to base I go.
Unsure how close I eventually got as I was too busy putting HE shells into her waterline, but I was still more than 1.5km away.
Love this mod, gets scarier everytime I download it, but this is too much, surely?

[Ragtag]

TDW, I hope that maybe someday you will find time to look a bit closer into the capital ships behavior. Last night after more than a hour of searching in happy times campaign, found in the middle of Atlantic a massive task force that included 1 BB, 1 carrrier and 1 Dido.. whatever is that, ofc with a massive escort group. Night, heavy storm with low visibility, perfect conditions for an attack. So I sneaked inside the escort circle and had time to shot 3 torpedos. The 1 for the carrier was a miss, the BB sunk. So the show begins.

At 180m deep I heard some very strange noises, very different than a DC, more like a collision. So I used the external camera and right above me I saw the horror. The Dido collided with an escort and was in flames, the DD sunk. A bit later on, 2 other escorts sunk trying to get out from the circling carrier path. To keep things short, the result was 5 escorts and finally the Dido lost by their own damage.

Now, I think this part should be somehow rewritten because is totally wrong that a capital ship start hunt a sub. I saw even the mighty carrier passing many times above me and speeding up like he was about to drop some DC's. In this particular case, the capital ships should not slow down, stop or more than anything.. hunt the sub. They should speed up to max and just go, so there is no way that another torpedo will chase them. Then few escort can stay behind and play with the sub, but the capital ships should run away at max speed from the ambush scene, they are not meant to fight subs, they are to valuable ships to waste time in hunting invisible enemies.

The carrier was acting right by sending out planes, but those planes were not watching the crime scene, but fly away in long patrols and returning later when low on fuel. Dunno if you can fix this, it might be scripted in the campaign files..

I had the exact situation just now in the same campaign (happy days). I had good weather and sank the carrier and the Royal sov. Left for the show was 9 destroyers and a large cruiser that started circling but during the show the large ship crashed and sank 3 destroyers. Looks like the large ship doesn't stop for anything. Also...even when running silent at 1 knot at 160+ meters they never lost contact. This show lasted for hours. But as soon as i turn the engines off they lost contact. There should be a slight chance for me to get away at such depths running silent at 1 knot.
But i gotta hand it to you. It was damn close that the curtains went down for me several times. I took damage several times and the AI is a damn nice improvement except for the movement of the capital ships. Looks like they circle forever in the same spot never changing route.

[elanaiba]

One strategy i would like to see in HK group (if possible to do so) would be a type of carpet bombing with depth charges by 2-4 destroyers aligned.

They would pass over the submarine, all running at the same speed and at a constant distance, and letting lose the charges. The effect would be a corridor of charges maximazing the chances that a hit is scored on the sub even with hard to port maneuvers.

I guess it's alot of scripting tho, but it is historically correct. It was depicted in some deptcharges tech book i readed on this forum some times ago.

That would be Operation Plaster. TDW, you may find references to it in the original script files, as it was implemented.

[TheDarkWraith]

I just found out also that carriers don't stop for anything and will collide with anything in their path - including their own ships :damn: It's not scripted to do this - it's just the way the game treats carriers. I'll have to script the carriers and battleships to do something to take them away from the hunt in HK groups.

[TheDarkWraith]

That would be Operation Plaster. TDW, you may find references to it in the original script files, as it was implemented.

Yes I've found the references but am having great difficulty getting it to work correctly currently.

[eon850aye]

Indeed, just took on a Cimmaron tanker with my deckgun, fired first shot from around 2.8km, as soon as I got into range of her machine guns(I imagine they are AA),
they turned my hull into swiss cheese (46%), dag nam it, back to base I go.
Unsure how close I eventually got as I was too busy putting HE shells into her waterline, but I was still more than 1.5km away.
Love this mod, gets scarier everytime I download it, but this is too much, surely?

Is this a result of this mod?

[TheDarkWraith]

v0.0.20 fixes the following bugs:

- fixed bug of carriers and battleships swarming over the contact. They now continue following waypoints
- fixed bug of leader not being correctly chosen on some tactics if they had escorts and battleships available. Now the game will look to see which one is the commander and assign it as the leader
- fixed bug of single merchants being able to turn into the contact. Now they will turn away from the contact some random amount added to their current heading

I implemented the 'carpet DCing' tactic but cannot get it to work still. Currently the ships get to the setup distance to align themselves to the contact and then they go to all stop and just sit there :damn:

[TheDarkWraith]

Is this a result of this mod?

more than likely yes

[eon850aye]

v0.0.20 fixes the following bugs:

- fixed bug of carriers and battleships swarming over the contact. They now continue following waypoints
- fixed bug of leader not being correctly chosen on some tactics if they had escorts and battleships available. Now the game will look to see which one is the commander and assign it as the leader
- fixed bug of single merchants being able to turn into the contact. Now they will turn away from the contact some random amount added to their current heading

Cool, just came across a large fleet, took out the carrier & a Nelson, 8 of the ten destroyers swooped in to hunt me down.
Whilst they circled above me the 2nd Battleship of the group came waltzing in and ran straight through 3 of the detroyers, and away I slipped.


I implemented the 'carpet DCing' tactic but cannot get it to work still. Currently the ships get to the setup distance to align themselves to the contact and then they go to all stop and just sit there :damn:

:rock: but thank god for that, but then again...easy targets mmmm

more than likely yes

Should they be quite so potent?

[Hoster]

I have some troubles with the planes in the mod. I`m in October 1940 and I was spotted by some Swordfish planes (probably from a nearby carrier). The planes attack my sub but non of them is firing with machine guns. Also not one plane is equipped with a bomb or torpedo. So the planes just make a bomb run without dropping anything. I can shoot`em down with no real threat to me. I also recognized, that the planes explode in the air when hit- no spectactular drop into the sea or any debris flying around- absolutely boring. What`s up, was there actually no real shot-down animation programmed by UBI?

[609_Avatar]

I posted the following in a new thread but it was suggested that I post it here:

One thing that has bothered me about this game (not just with SH5) is that when you're attacked by aircraft,and you decide to duke it out with them, if you hit one and his wing catches on fire the stupid bugger will keep on fighting like nothing is wrong!

Is it possible to somehow mod them to be semi intelligent so that when they are damaged they will break off and return to base? I've had planes with both wings on fire still attack me relentlessly. If that's not possible, could they be modded to blow up after a certain amount of time of being on fire? It's just one of those immersion killers that makes me shake my head when I see it. Thanks for any replies.

I'd also like to see the merchants not be able to shred my sub with light caliber ammo. :D But one thing you can do (directed at eon850aye) is stay farther than 2000m from your intended target to use your guns on. If they have canons then staying farther out than 6000m seems to be working for me so far.

[Lemke]

Are the AI tactics different depending on the different periods of war (1939, 1941, may 1943, etc)? Obviously, a 1939 destroyer would not react the same way as a "modernized" destroyer of 1943...

Sorry if this has already been posted before, just being curious about it ...

[TheDarkWraith]

v0.0.20 released. See post #1 for details :|\\

[7thSeal]

Woot! quite a few changes with this one... heck I only got half a patrol in with version .19 :DL

[nervouspete]

Have to say, this looks splendid! Ta Dark Wraith!

[Will-Rommel]

Yes I've found the references but am having great difficulty getting it to work correctly currently.

A big thanks to you TDW for accepting to look at this idea !

I believe that would be the breaking of another barrier in the silent hunter series if you could get it to work ! For the first time, the DD's would have other tactics than the standart listening/dashing/dcing making the game truly unpredictable.

I already imagine the players faces when they will discover in horror at the hydrophone station that there is 3-4 warships contact passing over them haha !

[PL_Andrev]

Nice. I prepared full report for IRAI 0.19 and after it I see new IRAI version...
:o:up:

REPORT FROM TEST IRAI 0.19 / PEDESTAL MISSION

About zigzags:
I saw that at IRAI 0.19 all merchants in convoy do not zigzag at the same time and direction. I dont know that is good solution (in real the commander give order to zigzag, and all merchants in convoy turn left or right.
The problem is that the zigzag's angle is too small (for me).
SH3 and SH4 used 45° per zigzag. 20° is too small to avoid torpedoes.

About durability of conning tower:
I have situation when plane attck me by bomb and hit near command room (under conning tower). Result: hull of command room is 1%, conning tower: 100%... and flooding (sparkles, water) from conning tower.

About air attack on task force:
1. No reaction, convoy keep formation when planes are attacking.
Good! But what about zigzags if attacking plane has a torpedo?
2. Did you something with the AI plane code? At first I look 11 planes attacking Italian convoy at Pedestal... good!
3. At first all planes are attacking my uboat, after few air waves, they are attacking main target (Italian BB) and they do not attack me (ignoring me)... a special plane? Special target?
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/853/airplanev.png

4. At some cases airplanes do not attack the target, if is at the visible range - something like point 3. It looks like the target must be "in front of" the plane... strange. Some of this group had course 1000m after last ship in convoy at no attack...
:06:
http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/3244/airatt.png

5. Some planes do not throw a bomb to the target, and try use it again and again...
http://img807.imageshack.us/img807/4905/bombf.png


About strange uboat speed:
It is strange (I'm boring, huh?), but when my batteries was not full and in "load battery" mode the maximum possible speed is 14kt and is impossible to order 12kt:
I precise 12kt at speed box, at the command/order box is 12kt (correct), but in speed box the summary speed is only 8 (motors not damaged).
:06:

About warship tactics:
1. Attack between battle groups
Italian group reacts when British DD was very close. BB do not used his long-range guns! They used it when the target was closer than 4500m...
2. Only 2 British DD change his course and attack enemy (circled).
Other groups (right DD pack, Italian and bottom British taskforce) do not react (long range guns at Littorio nad Nelson!).

Blue/red arrows: group courses. Only units in circles changed his course and attack. It looks like right red group is attacking blue, but in real these groups were passed.
Black arrow: I had contact with merchants - "send report" and no effect for Italian taskforce.
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/9262/taski.png


3. At first DD attack my sub by guns. No reaction from Italian taskforce.
4. This mission will be exciting if DD can shot torpedoes - I do not lose a hope...

Attack on main Pedestal convoy:
1. Only 2 closest DD from all 7 spotted attack my uboat. Good!
Unfortunately convoy without reaction (should escape or start zigzaging: long-range torpedoes, maybe wolfpack).
At second attack from second convoy's side only 1 DD reacts.
Convoy keep formation, course, speed (no min-max speed, no zigzags).
2. Surfaced at centre of convoy. No zigzags from merchants again.
3. Rest of DD: no activity (in my opinion they should looping to try find other boats / wolfpacks).
4. Again the DD in escort (only in main Pedestal convoy) have not passive sonar (no orange circles). :06:
5. Moment... I have other merchant contacts... this is 1st part of Pedestal main convoy!!! Group keep formation! Very good!!!
But wait a moment... they are without escort!? :hmmm:

Attack on HK group / carrier taskforce:
1. Group keep formation!!! Yeahhh!
2. First reaction: escort start shooting to my uboat at range 5.5km (visible range on sensor map -dark grey circle- is 13.5km).
3. After submerging... no fast reaction from AI escort!
Two DD reacts, change direction to my submarine, but keep 5kt (group speed).
4. All task force (excluded attacking DD) change strong the course (escaping) - good!
5. Fantastic job, man! Fantastic job!!!!
Taskforce changing speed to 9-18kt, still escaping (keep my uboat at their stern and strong zigzaging!!!!) :yeah:
Panic in the taskforce, collision CV-DD, DD sunk...
6. Attacking DD is in on my stern. Ready to attack... this DD has still 5kt (my speed 7 submerged). Other DD is closing. Correct attack. I'm sunk.
It looks like 1st give data to 2nd... or cannot attack faster than 5kt.
Probably group do not have a "escort leader" - sunk at mission start.

This is not a criticism of your work, but only the observation which elements do not work correctly.
Beta-tester.

[609_Avatar]

Antar, great write up! :up: I look forward to your next one.

[PL_Andrev]

Antar, great write up! :up: I look forward to your next one.

The most important question - is my English understandable?
:doh:

[TheDarkWraith]

The most important question - is my English understandable?
:doh:

it's understandable. I'd like to see what happens with v0.0.20 now. The tactics really changed for the escorts in HK groups. HK groups now have a director that will sit off some distance and 'listen' for you to keep group informed of your whereabouts. I also increased the max course change allowed by the convoy (both HK and merchant) when they spot a contact and also increased slightly the time interval between course and speed changes.
Both merchant and HK convoys will start changing speed when they detect you far out. As you get closer they will start changing course also.
Carriers and Battleships are now forced to stay with the group - they are not allowed to wander and swarm over your location. HK groups now act as a group and not individuals (except for the ones whose role is to hunt you) due to assigning them a leader that they have to follow.
I made a new role for the merchant and HK groups called guard convoy. They will stay with the group if you are outside the convoy 'area' but if you stray inside then they are allowed to attack. This is to combat the possibility that the escorts assigned the role of hunter may be out hunting targets and you surface or raise your periscope inside the convoy. These guys will take care of ensuring you go away and go back to the depths you came from.
I made some other changes also but can't quite recall everything.
I couldn't get the formation DCing to work. Everytime I tried to make it work it would crash the game. That's probably why the stock tactics that tried to use formations were commented out in the files.
As far as air contacts I haven't written any tactics for them yet. I've been mainly concentrating on tactics against other ships and subs. I should be able to add some tactics for air contacts in the next version.
All comments/criticisms/etc. are welcomed! Don't be shy :yep: The only way this is going to improve is by input from everyone.

[jwilliams]

Hydophone on the surface?

I curently get hydrophone contacts while surfaced, I would like to know if i can use the "NewUIs_TDC_4_0_3_No_Hydrophone_On_Surface" after IRAI_0_0_20_ByTheDarkWraith to remove the hydrophone on surface, or would this over write IRAI??

Current mods and load order :-

Generic Mod Enabler - v2.6.0.157
[D:\Simulations\SilentHunter5\MODS]

Accurate German Flags
A Fistful of Emblems v1.51 (Weathered)
AilBubbles 1.0 Micro
AilClouds 3.0
AilDeckwave 1.0
AilImpurity 1.2
AilMoon 1.5
AilRain 1.0
MapNameFix
Enhanced FunelSmoke_by HanSolo78
Grossdeutscher Rundfunk
GWX Compass Rose Grid for SH5
MightyFine Crew Mod 1.2.1 Alt faces
Nauticalwolf's_Poster_Mod_v1.0
Reboot's Hot Soup 1.0
sobers cremebrulee mod
Torpedo_Speed_Abilitie_Fix_for_TDC_SH5_v120
No Damn Bubbles, No Damn Halo Mod
NDB,NDH OM#1 - No Dialog Indicator
BRF 1.3 full
U-boat Historical Specifications 1.4
Sub_Exhaust_1_0_2_byTheDarkWraith
NewUIs_TDC_4_0_3_ByTheDarkWraith
NewUIs_TDC_4_0_3_alt_officer_wounded_by_naights
NewUIs_TDC_4_0_3_AltAdvSpeedGraphics_by_naights
NewUIs_TDC_4_0_3_ColoredShippingChart_by_reaper7
NewUIs_TDC_4_0_3_emtguf_rework_scopes
NewUIs_TDC_4_0_3_WWIIInterface_by_naights
NewUIs_TDC_4_0_3_No_Hydrophone_On_Surface
IRAI_0_0_20_ByTheDarkWraith

Note :- The mods coloured RED are mods that have been over written by later installed mods.

[The General]

I can't wait for you to work on the aircraft AI :D Will you be able to incorporate things like Leigh Lights, Rockets and the Molins Gun? I know these last two are later war, but I can dream can't I?! :O:

The boys did it for GWX2.0, see here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=130117&highlight=Molins+Gun

[The General]

Hydophone on the surface?

I curently get hydrophone contacts while surfaced, I would like to know if i can use the "NewUIs_TDC_4_0_3_No_Hydrophone_On_Surface" after IRAI_0_0_20_ByTheDarkWraith to remove the hydrophone on surface, or would this over write IRAI??I use these two files together with and they work fine.

[jwilliams]

I use these two files together with and they work fine.


yeah i have been using them together, but had no hydrophone contacts before IRAI and was getting contacts while surfaced. but JSGME shows a conflict and i dont want to ruin IRAI.

The conflict is "UBoot_Sensors.sim" has already been altered by the "IRAI_0_0_20_ByTheDarkWraith" mod.

[TheDarkWraith]

Hydophone on the surface?

I curently get hydrophone contacts while surfaced, I would like to know if i can use the "NewUIs_TDC_4_0_3_No_Hydrophone_On_Surface" after IRAI_0_0_20_ByTheDarkWraith to remove the hydrophone on surface, or would this over write IRAI??

using that will break the 360 hydrophone coverage feature of IRAI. I forgot to make a no hydrophone version for IRAI. I can't work on this until Sunday as I'm on the road currently.

[jwilliams]

using that will break the 360 hydrophone coverage feature of IRAI. I forgot to make a no hydrophone version for IRAI. I can't work on this until Sunday as I'm on the road currently.

kk thanks for the reply.

I'll remove the no hydrophone while surfaced mod and will wait for your fix.

I'm sure i can wait until you have the time. No rush.

thanks again. :salute:

[PL_Andrev]

it's understandable. I'd like to see what happens with v0.0.20 now.

OK, I will test 0.20 for PEDESTAL and PQ-17 missions.
But some questions were seen after tests 0.19:

- why does not escort to react on my presence, when I was in dark circle / visible sensor area? (Escort opens fire at 5.5km). Visible range does not mach to current visible sensor?

- why are sensors as default (red sonar as 180°, orange without stern)?

- what is HK group? Only with carrier or group with no merchants?
(on my last screen with 3 groups there are 1 group with DD only, other with battleships)?

- why some DD (escort) use only 5kt speed (default speed of HK group)?

- why do not warship groups to attack to self? Maybe the sensor range is not correct (visible) or radar (at huge warships).
Additional there was many airplanes to find a contact.

- why do not warship groups to change his course when attack enemy warships (Italian taskforce vs 2 British DD)?

- why are main marchant convoy splitted to two groups?

- why do not merchants to zigzag, to change speed when they detected my presence (ship explosion) or spotted me (surfacing at centre of convoy)? On other missions they do it...

- why airplanes do not throw the bomb when attack?

- why do not airplanes to attack to the target / enemy?

http://forum.pogononline.pl/grafika/emoticons/drapanie.gif

[Trublion]

I just tried the 0.20 version on Pedestal.
I was on the surface at 16knots, deck gun blazing on sitting Escort ship (not moving and not firing back). I used the external camera to check the convoy: not moving as well.

The only thing shooting at me and moving where the planes. I guess there are some bugs to iron out on this version.

[The General]

Hi Darkwraith, hope you're having fun on the road ;-)

In the Campaign near Bergen. There is no reaction from enemy warships. I have tried stock and with the IRAI .19 & .20 Mods. Bupkis!

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/4669/sh5img20100821142040.png (http://img651.imageshack.us/i/sh5img20100821142040.png/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/6310/sh5img20100821142057.png (http://img710.imageshack.us/i/sh5img20100821142057.png/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[TheDarkWraith]

what happens if you fire at them? Do you know how to use the AI debugger built into the game? If so, open it up and tell me what the operations set are for the two enemy units.

[TheDarkWraith]

sorry you all but it just occurred to me that I broke the single unit ship AI with versions 19 and 20. It just hit me while onsite at one of my customer's where the problem is. I'll make the change tonight when I'm back in my hotel room and then someone will have to test it for me because my company laptop is crap and can't run diddly squat for games (I think they did that on purpose!). It's a simple fix also but easily overlooked during testing as I tested convoys only :yep:

[reaper7]

No problem, easily overlooked. Look forward to fix. :up:

[Hoster]

Again I`m posting my request from yesterday hoping for replies....
I have some troubles with the planes in the mod. I`m in October 1940 and I was spotted by some Swordfish planes (probably from a nearby carrier). The planes attack my sub but non of them is firing with machine guns. Also not one plane is equipped with a bomb or torpedo. So the planes just make a bomb run without dropping anything. I can shoot`em down with no real threat to me. I also recognized, that the planes explode in the air when hit- no spectactular drop into the sea or any debris flying around- absolutely boring. What`s up, was there actually no real shot-down animation programmed by UBI?

[PL_Andrev]

The planes attack my sub but non of them is firing with machine guns. Also not one plane is equipped with a bomb or torpedo. So the planes just make a bomb run without dropping anything.
Yes, this is problem and hope TDW will solve it in next revision.
Thank you for your report.

I also recognized, that the planes explode in the air when hit- no spectactular drop into the sea or any debris flying around- absolutely boring. What`s up, was there actually no real shot-down animation programmed by UBI?
I recall that it is thread about "Intelligent Random AI" - a mod for SH5.
Visit the official SH5 forum and ask this question there.

[Capt Jack Harkness]

sorry you all but it just occurred to me that I broke the single unit ship AI with versions 19 and 20. It just hit me while onsite at one of my customer's where the problem is. I'll make the change tonight when I'm back in my hotel room and then someone will have to test it for me because my company laptop is crap and can't run diddly squat for games (I think they did that on purpose!). It's a simple fix also but easily overlooked during testing as I tested convoys only :yep:

Well trying out .20 last night I noticed some weirdness with convoys, too... I was on the way to drop off a spy in Canada in 1942 and I encountered an American convoy with 5 escorts, I think. I snuck in close and fired two torps at one merchant, two at another and the stern at one of the destroyers.

Sunk all three and remained undetected while the rest of the convoy continued on as if nothing happened. Some of the boats did turn on search lights though...

Another strange thing (not necessarily related to this mod) is that my radar either wasn't working or my officer wasn't reporting contacts because I got within visual range in the middle of the night without hearing a thing from the FuMO 29... I am using New UIs 4.0.3, as well, if it matters.

[The General]

what happens if you fire at them? Do you know how to use the AI debugger built into the game? If so, open it up and tell me what the operations set are for the two enemy units.I have not used the Debugger before, but I got this far:

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/2413/61397957.jpg (http://img291.imageshack.us/i/61397957.jpg/)

I loaded my campaign at the location near Bergen (As illustrated earlier in this Thread). At this point the Destroyers are moving around quite nicely, but as I approach they slow to a halt and do not attack. They do not respond if I attack them.

I selected 'Sim' in the the (Select Unit Type) Debugger menu and selected one of the two V&W Destroyers (Unit Type), I assume it's the one I'm nearest me in the game? As I did this the whole Game crashed :o

[Arclight]

That's familiar. :haha:

Happens when you screw up the AI, even just a typo. :DL

[The General]

That's familiar. :haha:

Happens when you screw up the AI, even just a typo. :DLYeah, but I uninstalled the IRAI Mod so the game should be stock. How are you supposed to debug anything if the Debugger crashes? Where do I look for these typos?

[Arclight]

Ah, shouldn't happen at stock. Never had it crash without first messing with the AI.

There's a chance something went wrong with rollback and modded files are still in place. Only reason I can think of it's happening.

[The General]

Ok, I'm gonna go ahead and reinstall SH5 then and re-test.

[Trublion]

Tried another single mission with 0.18, same behavior

I rolled back to 0.18 from 0.20, ships are still not moving.
2 things may happening:
a/ some files were not rolled back
b/ .18 was already bugged, which could make sense since I have not able to find any ships in my campaign lately after installing 0.18 a week ago...
:damn:

[Trublion]

using JSM of course...:hmmm:

[The General]

This is what happened to me?! How can this be?

[mauriga]

Hi TWD and tnx for your MOD.
I really appreciate everything that gives more realism to SHV.

I just played for a couple of hours your 20th version.
I was in the erly war (October 1939) and I spotted an unescorted convoy.
I easily torpedoed two merchants.
I wonder why the others ships didn't go in a zig-zag mode.

Is it a behavour not implemented into your IRAI?
Or have I done something wrong?

Tnx in advance for your reply.

mauriga

[TheDarkWraith]

Hi TWD and tnx for your MOD.
I really appreciate everything that gives more realism to SHV.

I just played for a couple of hours your 20th version.
I was in the erly war (October 1939) and I spotted an unescorted convoy.
I easily torpedoed two merchants.
I wonder why the others ships didn't go in a zig-zag mode.

Is it a behavour not implemented into your IRAI?
Or have I done something wrong?

Tnx in advance for your reply.

mauriga

I haven't put in tactics for unescorted convoys yet.

Now to follow up on what I said I would investigate as far as v0.0.20: it had lots of errors :nope: Wow, it was bad. I've fixed the errors and will be releasing v0.0.21 here shortly for confirmation.

[PL_Andrev]

v0.0.20: it had lots of errors :nope: Wow, it was bad. I've fixed the errors and will be releasing v0.0.21
These are wonderful news!
It is not problem that previous version contains bugs, the most important thing is that you recognize them!!!
:yeah:

[TheDarkWraith]

These are wonderful news!
It is not problem that previous version contains bugs, the most important thing is that you recognize them!!!
:yeah:

yes I recognized them. Some of them I had to dig to find. There are so many available operations and roles that it gets quite confusing very fast :doh:
One big bug was when the commander was setting roles it relies on the availability to assign any unit to any role it chooses. Well I had some roles setup to pick the unit closest to the contact. This defeated the commander's role and invalidated the tactic :nope:
There was another big bug in the firing of cannons. It was tied to the ability to DC....bad.
There were many logic errors also in the decision making process to determine what tactic to set.....very bad.

Still have to make tactics for escortless convoys.

[Schultzy]

Thanks and good work on the continued bug-squashing, looking forward to v0.21.

Still have to make tactics for escortless convoys.

Right then, I'd better load up my latest save and finish off that convoy near the Norfolk coast before you give them a brain and I see my tonnage disappear. :arrgh!:

[Krauter]

I gotta say, this Mod increased the pucker factor of my patrols by at least 7 :haha:

Currently entering the Celtic Sea from the direction of Brest. Had a few Sunderlands fly overhead doing reconnaissance (they didnt attack) and now, two hours after they've passed overhead I have a HK group of on Destroyer (Iroquois?) and three Frigates/Corvettes trailing along. They've just passed 90 degrees to starboard and are awfully close.

Goddam if Bernard decides to cut one of his smelly loud ones loose.. they're so close now it seems like they know exactly where I am..

Phew, just passed to my stern, gonna wait here at 100 Meters and wait another hour to see if they come back this way..

Congratulations TDW! You've given me my first heard pounding due to escorts appearing :D

Cheers,

Krauter

[Brumete]

The activated mod cause serious error in the game, ejm: compression of time if you activate the game is broken and returns to windows. It has been proven by my using the game with mods enabled and without mods.
It has nothing to do with this mod TDW, but somehow activating a mod in the game causing this critical error when activating compression of time. Thanks to all

[Petr]

If I may ask you TheDarkWraith, it would be nice, if you manage to solve the hydrophone on surface problem, because my sonarman still reports contacts on surface and I have to use another mod, which rewrites your file.
And the other one: Still discussed maintaining depth. I would like to have boat behaving more similar to SH3/4, if it is possible. But maybe this is not a problem of this mod.

[TheDarkWraith]

If I may ask you TheDarkWraith, it would be nice, if you manage to solve the hydrophone on surface problem, because my sonarman still reports contacts on surface and I have to use another mod, which rewrites your file.
And the other one: Still discussed maintaining depth. I would like to have boat behaving more similar to SH3/4, if it is possible. But maybe this is not a problem of this mod.

thanks for reminding me about the no hydrophone on surface version for IRAI...I almost forgot :up:

[The General]

The activated mod cause serious error in the game, ejm: compression of time if you activate the game is broken and returns to windows. It has been proven by my using the game with mods enabled and without mods.
It has nothing to do with this mod TDW, but somehow activating a mod in the game causing this critical error when activating compression of time. Thanks to allHuh?

[Krauter]

Just means his game is either unstable or a crack

[TheDarkWraith]

Right then, I'd better load up my latest save and finish off that convoy near the Norfolk coast before you give them a brain and I see my tonnage disappear. :arrgh!:

too late....they now have a brain and use it. Any contact the merchant convoy leader notices (air, surface, sub) it starts changing speed and depending how close the contact is changing course also. It keeps repeating this over and over at different random periods of time. The rest of the convoy follows the leader.
If the merchant convoy has escorts (but the group is being led by a merchant) then that merchant leader will assign the escorts duties to go hunt the contact. Any battleships or carriers with the merchant group are told to stay with the group.

[KarlKoch]

Any contact the merchant convoy leader notices (air, surface, sub)

Does that imply that the convoy also begins evasive maneuvers if an escort ship will notice a contact? How about some random (non-leader) ship noticing en enemy?

And one thing that might be interesting: how about letting the convoy scatter when one of the following is true:
- no more escorts around and an enemy is in range or was in range in the last 20 minutes
- escorts around but at least three torpedos struck at least 2 convoy members
- multiple enemy contacts are (known to be) in the vicinity

I have no idea if anything of the above is doable, but it might be interesting (at least at a later stage of the mod).

[Brumete]

Just means his game is either unstable or a crack
The perfect game without mods ok with mods enabled and compression of time turning the game is unstable.
My system is Windows 7 all updated drivers.

[TheDarkWraith]

Does that imply that the convoy also begins evasive maneuvers if an escort ship will notice a contact? How about some random (non-leader) ship noticing en enemy?

it should. If one of the convoy's escorts or merchant spots a contact and the leader hasn't then because of the way the game does things any units within so much time of the ship that spotted the contact will be alerted of it.

[The General]

too late....they now have a brain and use it. Any contact the merchant convoy leader notices (air, surface, sub) it starts changing speed and depending how close the contact is changing course also. It keeps repeating this over and over at different random periods of time. The rest of the convoy follows the leader.
If the merchant convoy has escorts (but the group is being led by a merchant) then that merchant leader will assign the escorts duties to go hunt the contact. Any battleships or carriers with the merchant group are told to stay with the group.Sounds beautiul! :up:

[TheDarkWraith]

Wrote tactics for the AI ships against airplanes. Here is a shot from the Pedestal single mission. The taskforce is just unloading on the aircraft :D:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=364&pictureid=2954

[7thSeal]

That pilot better hit his target the first time... I doubt he'll be coming back around for another pass. :DL

Can't wait for the release. :salute:

[Capt Jack Harkness]

Wrote tactics for the AI ships against airplanes. Here is a shot from the Pedestal single mission. The taskforce is just unloading on the aircraft :D


Does this affect your own flak gunner's ability to shoot down planes?

[TheDarkWraith]

Does this affect your own flak gunner's ability to shoot down planes?

No. It's just for the AI ships.

[TheDarkWraith]

v0.0.21 released. See post #1 for details :|\\

[Wolfling04]

Just found a HUGE convoy atleast 50 ships with 4 escorts. Fired four fish range 1000m 1 hit and crippled 7000ton cargo, other 3 set to deep. Anyways the escort closest to my position came sniffing and couldn't find me so he dropped 4 DC's and that was it, although the convoy slowed and started a small zig zag pattern while the second ship I fired the other two fish at was wildly steaming through convoy like she seen a ghost

It was very funny to watch. Great mod TDW

[TheDarkWraith]

although the convoy slowed and started a small zig zag pattern while the second ship I fired the other two fish at was wildly steaming through convoy like she seen a ghost

that would be it avoiding torpedoes I presume. You scared the living daylights out of it :haha:

[PL_Andrev]

v0.0.21 released. See post #1 for details :|\\
Yeah! :yeah: Thank you TDW!
I start testing... :D

[The General]

@TDW

Does sending a Contact Report have any affect in SH5?

[PL_Andrev]

@TDW

Does sending a Contact Report have any affect in SH5?

I hope that the aswer is "not yet".
:salute:

[PL_Andrev]

Test IRAI.0.21 with single mission
Military convoy (main unit: Rawalpindi armed cruiser+7merchants with 5DD escort / 01.01.1942 / night / wind 3m/s)

Submerged attack with 0kt.

Test #1/#2: attack on convoy's head

Attack at Rawalpindi armed cruiser (head of the convoy), sunk.
Escort: not activated
Merchants: not activated
Convoy is alarmed - visual sensors for merchants activated from 0 to 450-550m, for escort 300-350m (one DD is not alarmed only).

Wait few minutes (I forgot push pause) and...
4 of 5 escorts stay in this same place with 0kt :o
1 escorts is searching (looping) with 24kt (it is good but small tactics suggestion: for time to time stop to listen full hydrophone range)

After few minutes stopped escort ships return to his started position...
Merchants do not change speed/course (?)
Part of merchants are deactivated (visual sensor 0)

Full speed with parallel convoy's course
4DD attacks me, convoy change speed and escaping at stern to me.

Test #3: attack for other ship

Attack an second ship in line (not for commander)

Merchants change speed from 5 to 7, but high changes the course (but too slow for me).
2 closest of 5 DD are looking for me
Convoy is escaping.

Test #4: how to sink a sub?

Test with or without surfacing, keep periscope depth.
Escorts attack me only with ramming and speed 14kt. No DC (my speed 0-8kt). :o:o:o

[TheDarkWraith]

Test #1/#2 I'm trying to figure out why the escorts came to all stop. I don't recall that being part of the tactic. The one searching is good but the others that come to all stop sounds strange. What were the mechants doing when the escorts were at all stop? The merchants have to have you spotted (their sensors have to detect you in order for them to take any kind of action). Since the leader was destroyed I'm not sure which unit took over the role of leader. Did you by chance check the AI debugger to see who became the new leader (commander)?

Test #3 If the course changes are too slow for you or the course changes aren't enough you can tweak them in the init.py file.

Test #4 they will always try to use ramming tactic because I don't allow them to DC unless the contact is > some depth to avoid them blowing themselves up.

[StinkiePoep]

hey,

first off all i want to say i dont know so much about tactics from DD's and others during WW2 but i just wanted to say what i expierienced yesterday with 0.0.20. just want to say it because it can maybe help.

I played the mission PQ-17 with 0.0.20 Version,

first i saw the DD's convoy and i submerged, when the DD's where into a range of 1000m-2000m i surfaced just to look they should attack me. only 2 sec when i surfaced they unleashed a spray with theire AA guns, so i submerged to 105meters and 2knots just to see they could find me, immediatly there came 6 DD's my direction.

the first DD did an DC just far enough from me but the second DD hit me with theire DC, my crew was injured and my batteries and stuff was all damaged, they kept DC me for 1 hours but because my batteries where damaged and repaired and damaged again i think my batteries discharged realy fast. at the end i think 1 and a half hours after i surfaced and submerged i was sunk.

dunno if it helps but i justed wanted to tell it :)

[TheDarkWraith]

Wait few minutes (I forgot push pause) and...
4 of 5 escorts stay in this same place with 0kt :o

this is a bug, but a not so bad bug. I'll have to explore it to see if I want this behavior or not. Currently I fixed the bug but am exploring possibilities from this 'bug'.
The escorts that stopped were part of operation guard convoy. They are supposed to keep steaming following waypoints if:
- they don't have a contact spotted
- they have a contact spotted but it's not inside the convoy area
- they have a contact spotted and it is inside the convoy area but they've 'lost' it for x amount of time

I also figured out why the convoy never changed direction and/or speed when you killed the leader. That is being fixed also.

Keep in mind that due to the dynamic nature of IRAI there will probably be many bug fixes still. It's impossible for me to account for every single possible scenario because it's way too dynamic.

EDIT:

after some thought I decided to make a new operation and role for this stopping behavior. It's going to be operation protect convoy. The tactics of this op/role are going to be:
- keep steaming with convoy if:
* no contact detected
* contact detected but outside convoy area

if contact detected inside convoy area:
- investigate

if contact inside convoy area and investigating but 'lost' contact:
- go to all stop and wait x period of time
- after x period of time start spiral search for y period of time
- after y period of time rejoin convoy and follow waypoints

[PL_Andrev]

Test #1/#2 I'm trying to figure out why the escorts came to all stop. I don't recall that being part of the tactic. The one searching is good but the others that come to all stop sounds strange. What were the mechants doing when the escorts were at all stop?
Yes, some stop machines, other starts looping at high speed.
They work good if my submarine run a high speed (and they can hear me). So it works that the "looping" or "searching" strategy do not work correctly (but why one DD works with it?).
:hmmm:

After my attack and sunk a commander, the convoy (only merchants) works as without tactics (course and speed without changes), but they respond (start changing course, speed) when I sunk next ship.

The merchants have to have you spotted (their sensors have to detect you in order for them to take any kind of action). Since the leader was destroyed I'm not sure which unit took over the role of leader. Did you by chance check the AI debugger to see who became the new leader (commander)?
I think that is not problem who is commander/leader, look:
They work correctly when DDs detect me (it is not important what target is already sunk).
They partially work correctly when I sunk merchant.
They do not work correctly when I sunk a convoy's head.
Maybe the problem is connected with unit class / convoy's head (armed merchant cruiser).
http://forum.pogononline.pl/grafika/emoticons/drapanie.gif


Test #3 If the course changes are too slow for you or the course changes aren't enough you can tweak them in the init.py file.
I shot and sunk ships when they are start to zigaging (they are at 10-20°), but at real I do not play with unrealistic reload torpedo time so maybe you're right...
:DL


Test #4 they will always try to use ramming tactic because I don't allow them to DC unless the contact is > some depth to avoid them blowing themselves up.
Ramming at periscope depth?
They push me maybe 1-2 meters deeper without damages.
Ramming is dangerous with high speed, but 14kt is not.
At least, if uboat is rammed at conning tower... do you remember my post about conning tower's durability?

[von faust]

(excuse me for my bad English :oops:)
Hi,I have activated this MOD

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/8600/modact.jpg

I have various contact near

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/7362/62290750.png

At 12 meters the sonarman (and me !!!) does not listen anything

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/2297/15371431.png

At 22 meters I listen the contact very well but the sonarman nothing !!!

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/9157/35571911.png

Look my position, how is possible that the sonarman does not listen ????
I hope You undestand what I wrote :-?:O:

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/690/29723455.png

[PL_Andrev]

I check my single mission with AI debugger and it looks OK.
Only "ship operations" values were investigated.

0. Before my attack: why DDs keep "solid" formation, without looping, stop and listen, zigzags, etc, etc?

1. After commander sank (Rawalpindi armed merchant cruiser) the next commander is large tanker.
2. After torpedo hit uboat is detected for escorts and other merchants (checked with AI debugger)
3. 4 of 5 escorts keep formation (course and speed), but one is following waypoint (keep course) with... 15kt, in few next minutes other keep course with 34kt (deafault is 5),
4. Again, merchants can swim only slower, not faster than convoy speed (convoy speed is 5, standard max speed is 10).
5. Ekhm... contact is detected, why nobody use lights?
6. Contact_Presence_sensors is 4, escort ships are frozen, merchants group keep course (no zigzag).
7. Ok, one DD turn on his lights... when he moves with -13kt ;)
8. One DD start looping... not, is circled by this same area, with this same speed.
9. Hmm... I was in the "red arc area of death" and DD did not detect me... why?
10. It strange, but it looks like they do not reset sensors data
(sensors are resetting when I'm on surface),
#edit
11. I'm detected, presence_sensor is 5, on surface, DD is shooting to me but keeps formation...

Used first time AI debugger, so had problems "who is who" and with debugger work.

[Ragtag]

The "no sonar on surface" fix kills underwater sonar to.

[TheDarkWraith]

The "no sonar on surface" fix kills underwater sonar to.

what do you mean?

[PL_Andrev]

The "no sonar on surface" fix kills underwater sonar to.

Use "sober's hydrophone fix".
With this mod I have no problem on or under surface.

[TheDarkWraith]

Antar's posts about his testing with v0.0.21 caused me to dig deeper into the ship AI and see what was going on. I found more logic errors and bugs :nope: A big bug was with the merchant evade tactics. Although the merchant leader delegated roles to the ships, the ships were unable to fulfill those roles due to an error in my code. Antar that is why the DDs kept a solid formation as you mentioned.

So far here's what's fixed in v0.0.22:
v0.0.22 - more bug fixing in ship's tactics
- fixed bug of escorts coming to all stop when they are assigned the role of guard convoy and they have a contact spotted
- fixed bug of merchant leading convoy with contact detected and loses contact it immediately starts following waypoints. Now it waits some period of time before switching back to following waypoints (in that period of time it will continue to evade by changing speed and course)
- gave the leader of a convoy that is not a merchant a specified time that it is allowed to use evade tactics (course and speed changes) when it has 'lost' it's contact
- fixed bug of HK director not sitting 'still' for any period of time

I'll be packaging up v0.0.22 for release here shortly.

[Krauter]

Will I ever even make it to the 1/4 point of a patrol without a new version :D

You're the best lol

Krauter

[TheDarkWraith]

the release of v0.0.22 is going to be a little longer than expected. Was testing a convoy with a merchant leader and found some big bugs. Basically I now have to account for all different kinds of contacts for a merchant convoy leader. This means lots of new tactics for it. Sigh.....Oh well, it will be killer when it complete :D

[TheDarkWraith]

okay we have a serious problem that the devs need to look into and fix ASAP.....if you destroy the leader of a convoy another unit will take it's place....excellent. Here's the problem: that next unit is unable to set any tactics. There's something fundamentally wrong with the C++ code in this area. It wants to change to the tactic it wants but the call to Ship:SetTactic fails :nope: All units that were assigned roles before the leader was killed keep the roles given to them also. They will not reset :damn:

[SteelViking]

okay we have a serious problem that the devs need to look into and fix ASAP.....if you destroy the leader of a convoy another unit will take it's place....excellent. Here's the problem: that next unit is unable to set any tactics. There's something fundamentally wrong with the C++ code in this area. It wants to change to the tactic it wants but the call to Ship:SetTactic fails :nope: All units that were assigned roles before the leader was killed keep the roles given to them also. They will not reset :damn:

Crap, that is bad. Are you sure that you cannot fix it or at least find a work around?

[TheDarkWraith]

Crap, that is bad. Are you sure that you cannot fix it or at least find a work around?

I think I have a work around :D It's actually something that I should've done some time ago.
I put some conditional code in that says the leader can only set tactics if it's damage level is < some value. If it's greater than this value then all tactics and roles are removed and all ships in the convoy are in a free for all (they will act as independant units).
So far seems to be working ok but really won't know for sure until I release v0.0.22 and the work around gets tested by all (I can't test every possible scenario - it's just impossible to do)
I shouldn't have to do this work around - the game should handle this situation of leader being killed :shifty:

[THE_MASK]

I think I have a work around :D It's actually something that I should've done some time ago.
I put some conditional code in that says the leader can only set tactics if it's damage level is < some value. If it's greater than this value then all tactics and roles are removed and all ships in the convoy are in a free for all (they will act as independant units).
So far seems to be working ok but really won't know for sure until I release v0.0.22 and the work around gets tested by all (I can't test every possible scenario - it's just impossible to do)
I shouldn't have to do this work around - the game should handle this situation of leader being killed :shifty:Praise the Lord .

[Sudo]

Praise the Lord .

Amen. TDW, you're a hero! :salute:

[SteelViking]

I think I have a work around :D It's actually something that I should've done some time ago.
I put some conditional code in that says the leader can only set tactics if it's damage level is < some value. If it's greater than this value then all tactics and roles are removed and all ships in the convoy are in a free for all (they will act as independant units).
So far seems to be working ok but really won't know for sure until I release v0.0.22 and the work around gets tested by all (I can't test every possible scenario - it's just impossible to do)
I shouldn't have to do this work around - the game should handle this situation of leader being killed :shifty:

Hey, that is a really good idea anyway. I think that setup is pretty realistic. There is no excuse for the error in the devs coding, but at least you found a good solution.:up:

[TheDarkWraith]

was going to just arbitrarily pick a number out of thin air for the max damage that the commander can sustain before all tactics and roles get reset but then I remembered this crew state:

### ======= Ship state-machine: ABANDON ======= ###
strategy StateAbandon(Ship)
{
precond
{
Ship:GetDamage() >= MAX_DAMAGE_STATE_CHANGE
}

there's the magic number: MAX_DAMAGE_STATE_CHANGE (which is 0.9)

So there is what determines when the commander isn't a commander anymore :DL

EDIT:

the work around I did didn't work correctly.....but I did manage to find another one that so far has been working perfectly!

EDIT2:

after multiple tests it's been discovered that any work around doesn't work all the time :nope: This is a game breaker :down::damn:

[Ragtag]

what do you mean?

I mean sonar doesnt work at all, surfaced or submerged. No contacts detected or reported.

[Zedi]

I confirm that too. No sonar contact at all at scope deepth, the sonar will start to work only after I dived deep. Last night got the same bug reported by the others, escorts had no reaction at all they just keep sailing and more than that.. they had no intention to avoid the merchants who break the formation... is like they sail in a parallel world. They even left the convoy alone by doing this.

Finally got something that I really liked.. the abandoned ship. Hit in the stern a merchie and instead of sailing away burning and smoking, she just stopped. And was not the engine hit, only the stern part was in flame and flooded. 2 bad that when I surfaced to finish it with the deck gun, she almost got me.. the most active gun was the one from the stern :/ Wish that an abandoned ship remain really abandoned...

By giving the convoy the FFA status is not like.. returning to the stock settings? Because that happens in the stock, is really a ffa.. wich means a complete chaos. Escorts engage the enemy, merchies sail all over around trying to escape.. the only problem was the dc's.. they never hit/damaged anything.

[von faust]

(excuse me for my bad English :oops:)
Hi,I have activated this MOD

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/8600/modact.jpg

I have various contact near

....

At 12 meters the sonarman (and me !!!) does not listen anything

....

At 22 meters I listen the contact very well but the sonarman nothing !!!

......

Look my position, how is possible that the sonarman does not listen ????
I hope You undestand what I wrote :-?:O:

....

I have disabled all "no_hidrophone_on surface" MOD but I still have sound contact problem.
The "Report nearest sound contact" it's ok but when I use to "Follow nearest contact" I have "No sound contact"

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/1539/contactx.png

[charognard]

just a little thing, do your mod fix the hydrophone traget identification bug ???

[TheDarkWraith]

I finally have a solution that works for the kill the convoy leader bug :rock: When you kill the leader of a convoy there is some chance (not sure what the percentage is or what causes it to happen - it's definitely a game C++ code bug though) that the next leader will inherit the role of the previous leader and all ships in the group will keep their previous assigned roles. This is bad, very bad :nope: Reason being because the new leader is then unable to assign new tactics or roles. To counteract this problem I set an error tactic and then basically let each ship act independantly of the group. I wouldn't call it elegant but it does get the job done :D Many, many hours of testing went into figuring this out and finding a solution :damn: There are times when this bug doesn't rear it's ugly head and the new leader doesn't inherit the previous leader's role and thus it is able to assign new tactics and roles as needed. When that happens I do not set an error tactic but rather just let the new leader do as it pleases.

Now I just have to finish up the merchant leader tactics and v0.0.22 should be ready for release :up:

EDIT:

actually I'll let v0.0.22 release as is so I can get many people testing the new changes and fixes. The finishing up of merchant tactics I'll do in v0.0.23

[609_Avatar]

Thanks for your hard, endless work on this! It is much appreciated. :yeah:

[PL_Andrev]

Single/multi test with old IRAI 0.18
with hi-speed submerged travel across escorted convoy (periscope depth),

Used mission: 'military convoy'
download: http://www.filefront.com/17232080/Military_convoy.7z
install: by JSGME

Note about convoy:
Game is read this convoy as "task force", but this is armer merchant cruiser and merchants with 5 DDs escort.

Test as single / historic mission:
DDs detected me, all tried to hunt me all time but keep 14kt (no DC).

Test as multiplayer: (LAN/create session/start game)
DDs detected my presence (torpedo attack), but did not detected me at my high speed travel at periscope depth across convoy. I was all time at red/orange DD's sensors fields. Escort responds only when uboat is on the surface at multiplayer mode.

Multiplayer = single game in multiplayer mode.

[TheDarkWraith]

v0.0.22 released. See post #1 for details :|\\

One thing to note: if a merchant is the leader of the convoy it might not react to all possible scenarios. I have yet to finish up the tactics for a merchant convoy leader. It will send out units to investigate you if you are submerged. If you are surfaced or your periscope is up it will not send out anything.

[Trublion]

I just wanted to appologize to TDW for the non moving ships I wrote about earlier.
Something was fubar with my version of the game, after a fresh reinstall of the game and the mods, ships are moving, firing and .... destroying me. :D

[Madox58]

TDW,
Interesting on the C++ thing.
I know i saw something that was not right a while back when running
through one of my disassembly programs.

[BowfinSS287]

testing .22

i torpedoed a carrier that had 4 escorts,the carrier came to a stop
and 3 destroyers just stopped dead in the water,and one just stayed
on course and steamed off into the distance.........once i sank
the carrier the destroyers came to life and started attack me

note : while i was at periscope depth a plane attacked me....nice touch

[TheDarkWraith]

testing .22

i torpedoed a carrier that had 4 escorts,the carrier came to a stop
and 3 destroyers just stopped dead in the water,and one just stayed
on course and steamed off into the distance.........once i sank
the carrier the destroyers came to life and started attack me

note : while i was at periscope depth a plane attacked me....nice touch

the destroyers that came to a stop did so because they have the protect convoy role and they follow anything the leader does. Maybe I need to decrease the number of escorts that can do this role? Maybe develop another role that is like protect convoy but allows greater freedom to 'roam'?

[longam]

Maybe develop another role that is like protect convoy but allows greater freedom to 'roam'?

That would be more the way I would think.

[TheDarkWraith]

i torpedoed a carrier that had 4 escorts,the carrier came to a stop and 3 destroyers just stopped dead in the water,and one just stayed on course and steamed off into the distance.........once i sank the carrier the destroyers came to life and started attack me

this is a sticky situation now that I've dug deeper into it. Here's the problem: the units are part of a group. The group is led by the commander. Anything the commander does all the other units do. If it comes to all stop so does everyone else. I can't just tell all units to go off on their own because some will want to follow waypoints. And waypoints is the problem - their waypoint is whatever the commander is doing (at this time it's all stop). I'm trying to think of a way around this problem....any ideas? And no, you cannot detach the unit from the group - there is no command/function for that.

[reaper7]

Anyway to assign a set of waypoints that can be inserted before the original waypoint, kind of like sh3/4 search pattern function.

That way when commander stops, the search pattern is called in code - escorts follow doing there search. Then return to original waypoints. :06:

[TheDarkWraith]

Anyway to assign a set of waypoints that can be inserted before the original waypoint, kind of like sh3/4 search pattern function.

That way when commander stops, the search pattern is called in code - escorts follow doing there search. Then return to original waypoints. :06:

nope. Excellent suggestion though.

I could just set a predetermined speed and have them keep following the course they were on but then they would be dumb autonomous units :shifty:

[BowfinSS287]

can you set the commander change over if the unit takes any damage?
the hit from even one torpedo can really limit how well the ship can move
this way the rest of the ships could still respond to the threat

[TheDarkWraith]

can you set the commander change over if the unit takes any damage?
the hit from even one torpedo can really limit how well the ship can move
this way the rest of the ships could still respond to the threat

another excellent suggestion but no, not possible. There is no command/function to change who is the leader.
The leader will change when the unit is damaged but I haven't figured out what that exact value is yet or why it happens or who the game picks as the new leader :hmmm: That's something we'll need dev input on.

[BowfinSS287]

QUOTE : "That's something we'll need dev input on."

i wouldn't want to hold my breath on that

i would be glad to help you test different values of damage
if you could point out the file and value that needs changing

[reaper7]

Can the commanders order be changed or assigned a new order while dead in the water, so that the siblings follow the new orders assigned to the commander :06:

[TheDarkWraith]

Can the commanders order be changed or assigned a new order while dead in the water, so that the siblings follow the new orders assigned to the commander :06:

Hmm....well I can check to see if it's speed is 0 (or some other speed) and if so I can set a new tactic. But there's the dilemma....what tactic? Or to be more specific some tactic that doesn't tell them to follow waypoints. And then what to do with merchants? There really are no tactics for them except follow waypoints and evade (but with the evade tactic once they are outside the 'safe zone' they go back to following waypoints) :hmmm:

[KarlKoch]

Hmm....well I can check to see if it's speed is 0 (or some other speed) and if so I can set a new tactic. But there's the dilemma....what tactic? Or to be more specific some tactic that doesn't tell them to follow waypoints. And then what to do with merchants? There really are no tactics for them except follow waypoints and evade (but with the evade tactic once they are outside the 'safe zone' they go back to following waypoints) :hmmm:

Okay, for understanding: the problem is that when the commander is being shot (so he has to stop), his wingmen do the same and therefore are sitting ducks in the water (unwanted).

So is there no option to set the waypoint to an estimated players position and start hunting for some hours, then return to waypoints?

And for the merchants maybe just set a waypoint about 20NM away and then resume course?

Or am i missing something here?

[TheDarkWraith]

Okay, for understanding: the problem is that when the commander is being shot (so he has to stop), his wingmen do the same and therefore are sitting ducks in the water (unwanted).

So is there no option to set the waypoint to an estimated players position and start hunting for some hours, then return to waypoints?

And for the merchants maybe just set a waypoint about 20NM away and then resume course?

Or am i missing something here?

great suggestion and was what I was looking into it. I can make them do anything I want - but am looking for the right way to do it.
It appears that I need to make a new tactic for this scenario. But we need to define when this new tactic kicks in:
- speed of the commander
- commander's damage level (possibly)
- ??

[KarlKoch]

great suggestion and was what I was looking into it. I can make them do anything I want - but am looking for the right way to do it.
It appears that I need to make a new tactic for this scenario. But we need to define when this new tactic kicks in:
- speed of the commander
- commander's damage level (possibly)
- ??

- new commander set

i assume, the commander is usually one of the more "valuable" ships. i.e. huge merchants or bigger warships. That way, when attacking the commander, the escorts will become a bit angry and try to hunt you down a little harder then usual, because of revenge for the military equipment lost. One single small freighter was not as important as a bigger warship, for example and hunting the responsible sub was not a priority, it was enough to keep it underwater long enough to not close back in again.

e: nevermind, it is actually all about when a new commander has to be picked. :/

[THE_MASK]

- new commander set

i assume, the commander is usually one of the more "valuable" ships. i.e. huge merchants or bigger warships. That way, when attacking the commander, the escorts will become a bit angry and try to hunt you down a little harder then usual, because of revenge for the military equipment lost. One single small freighter was not as important as a bigger warship, for example and hunting the responsible sub was not a priority, it was enough to keep it underwater long enough to not close back in again.

e: nevermind, it is actually all about when a new commander has to be picked. :/
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/1702/convoy2j.jpg (http://img52.imageshack.us/i/convoy2j.jpg/)

[KarlKoch]

Since i have no time to look for it myself actually:

Does the problem arise when the convoy commodore is killed or the convoy commander?
I assume the convoy commander. Then it would be logical to send destroyers from lower left (close range) and upper left corner (the one far out) to investigate, while all others should continue their duty. Maybe let all destroyers sweep for the sub in early years and later on only the 2 mentioned above. But i have no idea if this can be set via date.

[TheDarkWraith]

Addendum #1 for v0.0.22. Unzip straight to MODS folder: http://www.filefront.com/17247130/IRAI-0-0-22-TheDarkWraith-Addendum-1.7z/

This addendum removes your crew's ability to spot aircraft at depth:
- the aircraft symbol will not appear on the TAI map anymore when at depth even if you, the captain, have it spotted and in your crosshairs (this is very realistic!). If you are surfaced, or you surface from being submerged, then once your crew spots the aircraft the aircraft symbol will appear on the TAI map. If you re-submerge then it will fade away to nothing again.
- crew will not detect aircraft once you submerge (good thing!)

[tonschk]

Thank you :DL TheDarkWraith :rock:

[Stormfly]

Addendum #1 for v0.0.22. Unzip straight to MODS folder: http://www.filefront.com/17247130/IRAI-0-0-22-TheDarkWraith-Addendum-1.7z/

This addendum removes your crew's ability to spot aircraft at depth:
- the aircraft symbol will not appear on the TAI map anymore when at depth even if you, the captain, have it spotted and in your crosshairs (this is very realistic!). If you are surfaced, or you surface from being submerged, then once your crew spots the aircraft the aircraft symbol will appear on the TAI map. If you re-submerge then it will fade away to nothing again.
- crew will not detect aircraft once you submerge (good thing!)

Hi TDW,

say would it be possible to remove that for all vessels while on pd?
I mean its very anoying, if iam on pd, rise my scope but not looking through it, and the WO is reporting visuals by standing next to the hydrophone guy.

Maybe also a new key command to gag him also if he is on the bridge, only being able to report planes, ...useable while leaveing or entering friendly habors. :)

[Ragtag]

Hi TDW,

say would it be possible to remove that for all vessels while on pd?
I mean its very anoying, if iam on pd, rise my scope but not looking through it, and the WO is reporting visuals by standing next to the hydrophone guy.

Maybe also a new key command to gag him also if he is on the bridge, only being able to report planes, ...useable while leaveing or entering friendly habors. :)

That only happens when you use the "total reveal" ability i believe.
It's the reason why i don't use that ability.

[Stormfly]

That only happens when you use the "total reveal" ability i believe.
It's the reason why i don't use that ability.

ohh, i never used that ability, also its already gone using a crew ability mod, those anoying reports are still active for me.

[TheDarkWraith]

say would it be possible to remove that for all vessels while on pd? I mean its very anoying, if iam on pd, rise my scope but not looking through it, and the WO is reporting visuals by standing next to the hydrophone guy.

Maybe also a new key command to gag him also if he is on the bridge, only being able to report planes, ...useable while leaveing or entering friendly habors. :)

Yes I can make that happen for all units while @ depth :DL Actually that's a very good idea as it is very unrealistic for the WA to be calling out visuals when he can't see diddly squat.

I can't tie any of this to a key command because I'm modifying a sensor to make it work. I can though make it so that your crew only reports aircraft they spot and nothing else while surfaced. Is that what you're looking for? If I make it so that they only report aircraft contacts then no visual symbols will appear on the maps except for aircraft.

I'll make another addendum with the removal of the WA to report surface visual contacts at depth. Give me a little bit here to make and test.

EDIT:

One problem with removing the WA ability to spot surface contacts while at depth: you can't lock onto ships or identify them or use follow target. Looking to see if there's a way to make it work

EDIT 2:

no workaround. Also noticed that the scopes don't rotate with the camera. This is a problem because if they don't rotate the sensor attached to them also doesn't rotate. I can't assign the sensor a very narrow beam because the scopes don't rotate. If I assign it a very narrow beam then it relies on the sub's heading for determing if a contact is detected or not.

[Stormfly]

sometimes i gag him with a dirty trick... :smug:
(part of Stormys DBSM SH5)

there are two silent running commands atm...

1. The official SH5 silent running command using the Executive Officer command.

2. The old SH3/SH4 silent running command useable if you bind a key for it in commands.cfg

ive gaged all his stupid reports while he looks through his magic crystal ball, or throws old bones... by editing some of his report voices for silent running.

Thank good that the old inofficial silent running mode by key press (Nr.2) still allow use of higher speeds or engine telegraph settings after commanding it. Its a pity that this isnt working on surface

...i hoped you found a better, more relaistic way to gag him :88);)

[TheDarkWraith]

there are two silent running commands atm...

1. The official SH5 silent running command using the Executive Officer command.

2. The old SH3/SH4 silent running command useable if you bind a key for it in commands.cfg

they are both the same command to the game :yep:

[Stormfly]

they are both the same command to the game :yep:

maybe but they are executed in a different way giving a different result:

command a higher speed after using silent running command 1., then silent running mode and seperate original silent running icon will be canceled.

not so if using silent running method 2., command a higher speed after using silent running command 2., and crew voice and seperate silent running icon stay in silent mode. :yep:

[Trublion]

Same thread, but slightly different topic still related to IRAI.

I restarted a campaign and would like to report 2 incidents:
- twice I sunk ships that were not reported as such in the mission and on the map. One in a convoy, then a lonely one.
- the lonely ship actually took revenge and hanged my game once I click on the mission briefing icon (TDW UI). No CTD, just a static frame. This could be a script running in a infinite loop, null pointer (would CTD most likely) or so on...

Not sure how I can help pinpoint the problem better but this is a first time crash type for me.
I have to say that I installed W_Clear envmod 3.4. But a graph card hang would hang my system not just the game.

[Ragtag]

Same thread, but slightly different topic still related to IRAI.

I restarted a campaign and would like to report 2 incidents:
- twice I sunk ships that were not reported as such in the mission and on the map. One in a convoy, then a lonely one.
- the lonely ship actually took revenge and hanged my game once I click on the mission briefing icon (TDW UI). No CTD, just a static frame. This could be a script running in a infinite loop, null pointer (would CTD most likely) or so on...

Not sure how I can help pinpoint the problem better but this is a first time crash type for me.
I have to say that I installed W_Clear envmod 3.4. But a graph card hang would hang my system not just the game.

As of now the environment mod will crash your game, any version of it. If you want to use it i recommend you to either delete the climatezone.tga in the modfolder or use another one. i use Ailclimatezone 1.0 mod which works like a charm.

[SteelViking]

As of now the environment mod will crash your game, any version of it. If you want to use it i recommend you to either delete the climatezone.tga in the modfolder or use another one. i use Ailclimatezone 1.0 mod which works like a charm.

I tried to warn W_clear that the changes he was making was going to cause a LOT more CTDs for everyone. The fix I have posted can still be used over top of Env3.4, however, it is still not full proof. I am beginning to think that we will just have to stick with the stock number of climate zones.

[DedEye]

This mod is indispensable imo.

Thanks a tonne TDW :rock:

[rascal101]

Hi to all - this mod is great, I have been installing each new version as they are published - with the latest .22 I have found a few more clashes with other mods when seting up via GSME - I have listed an activated mod list below with the clashing mods in red - I wonder if I should delete some, or change the order in which they are placed to maximise the end result - I always try for more realistic environment and gameplay while looking for a challenge from the AI - Here's the list:

SteelViking's Interior Mod V1.1 obviously clashes with SteelViking's Interior Mod V1.1 patch V1.1.1 - but some help with the others would be great

I use Sh5EnvModGold with the enviro folder from W Clear's Enviro mod - this way I get the best of both Enviro mods without the CTDs that seem to accompany Mr Clear's Mod

The Digital UI Clock 1.2 for SH5-1.2 didnt clash with anything until I installed the HiDef Realistic Interface V2.0 so I wonder what's happening there



Sh5EnvModGold
sobers base wave mechanics for SH5 v3
A Fistful of Emblems v1.51 (Weathered)
Digital UI Clock 1.2 for SH5-1.2
Grossdeutscher Rundfunk
MightyFine Crew Mod 1.2.1 Alt faces
NDB,NDH OM#1 - No Dialog Indicator
Royale_Adio's Turm Emblems Package
Shadow Improvement Mod
sobers no shoe sound mod
sobers talking conning crew mod
Lite Campaign LC 1.2
Old Style Explosions V1.1
Enhanced FunelSmoke_by HanSolo78
BRF 1.3 full
The Elite Campaign 1.1
U-boat Historical Specifications 1.4
Nauticalwolf's Damage and Torpedo UI (b) Mod V1.1
Loading Screens Mod 2.0
SV&Com Underwater Mod
HiDef Realistic Interface V2.0
IRAI_0_0_22_ByTheDarkWraith
SteelViking's Interior Mod V1.1
SteelViking's Interior Mod V1.1 patch V
1.1.1
M1 Thompson's Realism sound mod v.1.0
ImprovedWaves_Improved Pitch&Roll

Best Regards to all SubSimmers

Rascal

[Sudo]

Hi to all - this mod is great, I have been installing each new version as they are published - with the latest .22 I have found a few more clashes with other mods when seting up via GSME - I have listed an activated mod list below with the clashing mods in red - I wonder if I should delete some, or change the order in which they are placed to maximise the end result - I always try for more realistic environment and gameplay while looking for a challenge from the AI - Here's the list:

SteelViking's Interior Mod V1.1 obviously clashes with SteelViking's Interior Mod V1.1 patch V1.1.1 - but some help with the others would be great

I use Sh5EnvModGold with the enviro folder from W Clear's Enviro mod - this way I get the best of both Enviro mods without the CTDs that seem to accompany Mr Clear's Mod

The Digital UI Clock 1.2 for SH5-1.2 didnt clash with anything until I installed the HiDef Realistic Interface V2.0 so I wonder what's happening there



Sh5EnvModGold
sobers base wave mechanics for SH5 v3
A Fistful of Emblems v1.51 (Weathered)
Digital UI Clock 1.2 for SH5-1.2
Grossdeutscher Rundfunk
MightyFine Crew Mod 1.2.1 Alt faces
NDB,NDH OM#1 - No Dialog Indicator
Royale_Adio's Turm Emblems Package
Shadow Improvement Mod
sobers no shoe sound mod
sobers talking conning crew mod
Lite Campaign LC 1.2
Old Style Explosions V1.1
Enhanced FunelSmoke_by HanSolo78
BRF 1.3 full
The Elite Campaign 1.1
U-boat Historical Specifications 1.4
Nauticalwolf's Damage and Torpedo UI (b) Mod V1.1
Loading Screens Mod 2.0
SV&Com Underwater Mod
HiDef Realistic Interface V2.0
IRAI_0_0_22_ByTheDarkWraith
SteelViking's Interior Mod V1.1
SteelViking's Interior Mod V1.1 patch V
1.1.1
M1 Thompson's Realism sound mod v.1.0
ImprovedWaves_Improved Pitch&Roll

Best Regards to all SubSimmers

Rascal

The digital ui clock is part of reapers ui mod, so you won't need it. I think it's part of reapers ui. If I'm incorrect someone will be a long to correct me. :03:

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Off topic:

@rascal101
You installed "A Fistful of Emblems v1.51 (Weathered)" but I bet it doesn't work. :) For this to work you need to install "A Fistful of Emblems v1.51" first and then add the Weathered version to it.

[reaper7]

The digital ui clock is part of reapers ui mod, so you won't need it. I think it's part of reapers ui. If I'm incorrect someone will be a long to correct me. :03:

Correct, its integrated into the UI. :up:

[BowfinSS287]

hello TheDarkWraith

I'm aware you have run into a bug while trying to improve the AI
i have been loading older version of your mod,looking for the most
difficult and playable version. i think it might be version .17, what do
you think?......i wish you the best of luck in fixing this game bug
your AI mod will make or break this game.

[Hoster]

Hello DarkWraith,
I installed your Mod Version 0.022 hoping to receive a nice Ai-Mod which converts SH5 to a playable game, but what I experience is, that the destroyers are no real threat to me. They are aiming with cannons at my submarine but they do not conseqently attack with depth charges. After an attack on a convoi, one destroyer stopped (to locate my position via hydrophnone?). I turned to full speed to give him perfect sonar conditions and on the Hud I was fully in the yellow circle- but the destroyer did nothing and let me evade unharmed.

[Abd_von_Mumit]

I have similar problem as Hoster does, but with planes - I've rolled through la Manche aka English Channel for 6-8 times since installing IRAI, was supposedly spotted by about 30-50 planes, and was never attacked by one.

At least twice it seemed like the planes called a HK group to my position, but that's it. They don't attack, they don't stalk me, they just fly over and dissapear. Should it be so? I read in your mod description that planes should be more aggressive.

[Trublion]

It's been my experience so far as well... but
Plane pass by but do not attack, destroyer do one or two passes and then resume their convoy duty...

Would installing the elite_campaign_1.1 improve the behaviour? I figure that in the year 39-40, destroyers are not that good at hunting uboats...

[Hoster]

After some testings I`m considering the U-Boat-Killer-Mod as most suitable for increasing the AI of the game. Maybe you all should use that mod until DarkWraith has continued in editing his mod version.

[eon850aye]

hello TheDarkWraith

I'm aware you have run into a bug while trying to improve the AI
i have been loading older version of your mod,looking for the most
difficult and playable version. i think it might be version .17, what do
you think?......i wish you the best of luck in fixing this game bug
your AI mod will make or break this game.

I agree, it was either 16 or 17, detroyers were a right b**** to evade, I miss that.
I'm sure he'll figure it out:yeah:

[TheDarkWraith]

I agree, it was either 16 or 17, detroyers were a right b**** to evade, I miss that.
I'm sure he'll figure it out:yeah:

I don't play the game so tell me what's wrong with v0.0.22. Are ships stopping all the time? Are they not chasing you? Are they not seeking you out? Is it a single unit problem/HK group problem/and or convoy problem?

[eon850aye]

I don't play the game so tell me what's wrong with v0.0.22. Are ships stopping all the time? Are they not chasing you? Are they not seeking you out? Is it a single unit problem/HK group problem/and or convoy problem?

Will get back to you about that tomorrow, just about to call it a night.
Would I be better off testing in the campaign or in a historical mission, or is there another single mission I could download?

[TheDarkWraith]

Will get back to you about that tomorrow, just about to call it a night.
Would I be better off testing in the campaign or in a historical mission, or is there another single mission I could download?

I'm about to release v0.0.23. I added another role to the tactics - protect convoy. The guard convoy role is now only allowed to assign a maximum of 2 escorts to it. All the rest get assigned to Protect convoy. Guard convoy is the one where the escorts are not allowed to break convoy formation unless the contact is spotted inside the convoy. It is also the one where the escorts will stop with the convoy leader if it stops.

Protect convoy allows the escort to operate independently when the contact is less than an assigned distance. If the contact is > the assigned distance then it will remain with the convoy following the leader.

[eon850aye]

The guard convoy role is now only allowed to assign a maximum of 2 escorts to it. All the rest get assigned to Protect convoy. Guard convoy is the one where the escorts are not allowed to break convoy formation unless the contact is spotted inside the convoy. It is also the one where the escorts will stop with the convoy leader if it stops.

Ah okay, this is one thing I had noticed. I came across a medium sized convoy of 9-12 merchants, surrounded by 8-10 destroyers, "no way i'm getting in there" I thought, so decided to attack from outside, managed to slip 2 eels between 2 of the detroyers, hit a tanker at tail end of convoy, which slowed, rest of convoy carried on with escort who stayed in formation.

[BowfinSS287]

that's great....looking forward to its release

right now I'm using files from .14 and .22 together
its working but i think .23 sounds better

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Is it your mod that's responsible for 2 destroyers from a HK group that kept running backwards for a few hours when hunting me? :) And if so - what would be the benefit of backwards for them?

[TheDarkWraith]

v0.0.23 released. See post #1 for details :|\\

Let me know if the escorts are 'back to normal' now or not :yep:

[BowfinSS287]

will test this out tomorrow and post.....fingers crossed

thanks again for all your hard work:salute:

[eon850aye]

v0.0.23 released. See post #1 for details :|\\


Thanks, will take a look.

Also, just had a butchers at the changelog, and noticed this:
v0.0.17 - added the ability to set difficulty level by adjusting values in \data\Scripts\AI\init.aix. There are difficulty level settings for merchants and non-merchants.....don't know how I missed this:damn:
Was wondering, do I have to make changes to this, & what are the default settings? ie easy, medium, hard.

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Was wondering, do I have to make changes to this, & what are the default settings? ie easy, medium, hard.

Just had a look into that file and it seems it's all maxed out there, tou could only make things easier for you.

[eon850aye]

Would I be better off testing in the campaign or in a historical mission, or is there another single mission I could download?

@TDW...sorry, just found your single mission test scenarios :oops:

Just had a look into that file and it seems it's all maxed out there, tou could only make things easier for you.

Damn, was hoping to make it harder :hmmm: (keep your sexual innuendos to yourselves) :DL

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Damn, was hoping to make it harder :hmmm: (keep your sexual innuendos to yourselves) :DL

I said "easier", not "softer". :shucks:

[PL_Andrev]

v0.0.23 released. See post #1 for details :|\\

Is it still unknown the reason why the convoy's escort cannot detect a submerged uboat at multiplayer mode?
:ahoy:

[Zedi]

I also start to think about returning to an earlier version. I thik there is already to much thinks added to the mod and that makes it to not work as intended.

Just tested the latest version on the HanSolo's funnel test mission where is a carrier with 4 escorts. The carrier speed drooped from 17knts to 1 in the second the first torpedo hit. I was very disappointed to see that happens. Also the escort were just circling around for a while then they left the crime scene except one that seemed to be stuck in a looping mode.. she was just circling next the carrier and not responded to any other threat, not even when I maxed the engines and got back at scope depth.

The old versions were just perfect. Between 15 and 17 were released the finest versions, any chance to make them available again? :P

[TheDarkWraith]

I also start to think about returning to an earlier version. I thik there is already to much thinks added to the mod and that makes it to not work as intended.

Just tested the latest version on the HanSolo's funnel test mission where is a carrier with 4 escorts. The carrier speed drooped from 17knts to 1 in the second the first torpedo hit. I was very disappointed to see that happens. Also the escort were just circling around for a while then they left the crime scene except one that seemed to be stuck in a looping mode.. she was just circling next the carrier and not responded to any other threat, not even when I maxed the engines and got back at scope depth.

The old versions were just perfect. Between 15 and 17 were released the finest versions, any chance to make them available again? :P

I need to know what you all think is exactly wrong with the current version? What does the AI not do? What did they do before that they don't do now?
The one escort above that was just circling next to the carrier sounds like it was assigned the role guard convoy. Sounds like it was doing what it should.
Where can I find this test mission you used? I'd like to test with it to see if I notice any bugs.
As far as the carrier speed decreasing, was the speed decrease instantaneous? Have you tried the mission without IRAI to see if the carrier's speed decreases as fast?
As far as the escorts that were just circling around for awhile and then left the crime scene, what's wrong with that? That tells me you attacked the carrier from periscope depth undetected. You remained undetected by the escorts and they immediately started searching for you after the carrier was hit. They searched their maximum allowed time and didn't find you so they continued on following waypoints. Seems like it's working just fine here.
So I am a little confused as to what's so wrong with the current version :06:

EDIT:

looking into speed issue. Let's assume that the carrier is a veteran. It's crew state before being torpedoed would be:

Ship:SetThrottleRatio(0.625 + (0.1 * (1 - Ship:GetDamage())));

so it has an available throttle ratio of max 0.725

once torpedoed it more than likely switched to crew state damage control:

Ship:SetThrottleRatio(0.475 + (0.1 * (1 - Ship:GetDamage())));

so it has an available throttle ratio of max 0.575

if it switched to alert state while in damage control state also:

Ship:SetThrottleRatio(0.675 + (0.1 * (1 - Ship:GetDamage())));

so it has an available throttle ratio of max 0.775

the maximum change in available throttle ratio (worst case) would've been 0.725 - 0.475 = 0.25. That equates to a max 25% change in speed. So the carrier slowing to 1 knot is not caused by the mod that I can see.

EDIT2:

it could be that the carrier sustained enough damage to put them into the abandon ship crew state. If so, their available throttle ratio would be 0 and thus speed would 0. Maybe this is the underlying problem. It would definitely cause a VERY rapid decrease in speed. Maybe what should be done is available throttle ratio left at some value but speed is forced to 0 thus allowing the vessel to 'cruise' to a stop......

EDIT3:

I'm going to try something for the speed of the vessels relating to damage. It's going to be purely experimental and I'll post a link to it here when it's ready.

[laribe]

I like the way all ships react but I think it is that the escorts do not press the attack! They drop a few DCs then just keep criss crossing as though they have used all their ammo supply.
Keep up the good work :salute:

[TheDarkWraith]

I like the way all ships react but I think it is that the escorts do not press the attack! They drop a few DCs then just keep criss crossing as though they have used all their ammo supply.
Keep up the good work :salute:

can you be more specific? Is this behavior from a convoy or an HK group or a single unit? If from a convoy, is the convoy leader a Merchant or Warship (escort or battleship)?

[laribe]

I will try from a laymans view. In a convoy the escort stays with the convoy and does not attempt any counter moves, The HK seem to aquire a contact, moves into position drops DCs on first run then re-run, pinging as they go, but rarely drop any further charges.
I know the object is to frustrate the attack and keep the boat down, so they should be dropping a lot more DCs if in contact.
I hope this helps troubleshoot not great with words:yep:

This was using historic missions wolfpack and military convoy

[Zedi]

I try to get into more details this time. The mission I was talkin about is packed into the Enhanced FunelSmoke_by HanSolo78, I'm a bit surprised you don't use that mod, it greatly improves the funnel smokes :)

What happened was this: gathered fast the target data and shot a salvo. 3 from 4 torpedo hit the carrier and damaged it very bad, but not sunk the ship. So I suppose the ship entered into the abandoned state. In about 2 second the ship lost his speed from 17 to 1 knots. I say 1knt because she was still moving, but extremely slow.

The escorts: On hit, one of them (the one that left behind later) started to circle next to the carrier. Not searching, but circling.. just cruising in an endless loop. The other 3 started to search, one of them going with "extrem speed" backwards for a while. None of them left the carrier, they were searching around the ship. After 10 minutes or so, they regrouped and left the scene continuing their cruise while the carrier was still floating and burning. The 4th escort was left behind running in circle next to the carrier.

Me: After the salvo I ordered a deep dive on silent running mode. My target was at 4.7 Km distance from me, so at the impact I was already at 100 m + deep. Because the mission use the 7a type uboat, I got issues keeping the depth under 150m.. so to not crash, I had to gave up on the silent running and go on scope depth using max engine speed. The escort left behind still not detected me, not even when I got at about 2Km close.

Regarding the speed issue on hit, there is no way that a huge carrier will slow down from 17knts to 0 in just few seconds. You can't do that not even with a car on surface :DL Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember that I was reading somewhere that a tanker need around 15-20 minute to completely stop on sea when she is at max speed and with full cargo.

I loved more the older versions where the escorts were really aggressive. I think it was v. 15-17 when they got me first time I play SH5 and when they managed to drop a DC right on top of me shaking badly the sub and few seconds later seeing the death screen :DL That was absolutely awesome, it was when I learned to shot from max distance.. like 10km away.

[BowfinSS287]

ok here is what I've found,been testing AI versions back to .14
I'm using the enhances funnel smoke mission as-well and here is
what i found out....I'm firing from about 3500 meters,the escorts
do not detect me and when i hit the carrier the destroyers follow
the torpedo tracks back to me and start searching. their tactics are
the best I've seen in any version to date,maybe a little too hard but
if you take your time and stay cool, you can survive with a veteran
crew...with this version you might decide not to attack sometimes
the depth charge attacks are long and painful...Das Boot monuments
are plentiful with this version....you will fear destroyers!

p.s.this is where i would look for AI tactics,and bring them forward
maybe easy them down a bit

[TheDarkWraith]

v0.0.24 released. See post #1 for details :|\\

I'm trying to understand how the game interprets unknown contacts. Your sub can be declared an unknown contact sometimes and hopefully this version addresses this issue and allows the escorts to DC you now.

[laribe]

Bowfin
Just did that mission and what i found was after the CV was hit 2 DDs came roaring down, couple of pings, stopped, then dead slow with a couple of DCs . I was at periscope depth all the time.
I noticed the close escort stayed with the CV which was going down by the head.

[TheDarkWraith]

Bowfin
Just did that mission and what i found was after the CV was hit 2 DDs came roaring down, couple of pings, stopped, then dead slow with a couple of DCs . I was at periscope depth all the time.
I noticed the close escort stayed with the CV which was going down by the head.

v0.0.24 should address this issue of them not DCing you when you're an unknown contact and at periscope depth.

[Abd_von_Mumit]

0.0.23 patched game defeated me for the first time. April 3rd, Narvik approach area, allied convoy moving East, destroyer as leader, at least 3 destroyers on port. After I attacked they dropped some "random" DCs but as I submerged and maneuvered immediately after launch they never really found me. But here they got tricky - the convoy moved on and my sonarman (who is totaly deaf) reported no contacts nearby, so I risked an early periscope check. I got pinged and DCd before reaching 20 m, so dived again. Some more DCs were dropped, closer and closer, then I realised I was too deep and my boat is slowly falling down if I don't speed a bit - I suppose that was the main mistake here, as the DCs dropped even closer this time. Finally hull got crushed at more than 200 m depth (as my UI says, we were below crAsh depth...).

So, this was definitely an improvement compared to earlier version I had (North Atlantic 2 convoy battles).

EDIT: Photo documentation found when... seas dried to the bottom:

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/2996/sh5img20100906200754.png

[BowfinSS287]

still no joy with .24....i think if you could see what happens in the game
it would help you determine what needs to be fixed

if you loaded enhanced funnel smoke mission....found here
http://www.filefront.com/15948455/EnhancedFunnelSmokeSH5.rar/

to score a quick hit on the carrier,follow these steps

1 : set speed to ahead slow
2 : rise scope and look 65 degrees to starboard
3 : set heading to view
4 : fire a salvo.....1 3 4....set speed to medium....spread 10
5 : AOB 66 starboard.....range is around 4024 meters
6 : aim about 10 meters in from the bow
7 : don't forget to set torpedo depth....8 meters should work

now sit back and watch how they react....do it with .14 and
you'll see a big difference...use the type VIIB

[TheDarkWraith]

still no joy with .24....i think if you could see what happens in the game
it would help you determine what needs to be fixed

if you loaded enhanced funnel smoke mission....found here
http://www.filefront.com/15948455/EnhancedFunnelSmokeSH5.rar/

to score a quick hit on the carrier,follow these steps

1 : set speed to ahead slow
2 : rise scope and look 65 degrees to starboard
3 : set heading to view
4 : fire a salvo.....1 3 4....set speed to medium....spread 10
5 : AOB 66 starboard.....range is around 4024 meters
6 : aim about 10 meters in from the bow
7 : don't forget to set torpedo depth....8 meters should work

now sit back and watch how they react....do it with .14 and
you'll see a big difference

what I think you're seeing is the assignment of the ships being different. In prior versions (say before .18) the ships were assigned closest to contact. Now they are assigned any - so you may see an escort right in front of you that appears to do nothing but it may be assigned the role guard convoy or something.
I'll have to look into HK groups assignment and see if I can't make it better.

[laribe]

Using 24 in Funnel smoke I missed the carrier, its late, but hit 2 escorts. the remainder followed set course, which in the real world would be right, so no units hunted me.

Using 24 with Military convoy at periscope depth 2 of the RNs finest came on at full tilt pinged a few times and that was it. I got into the convoy at the same depth, with DDs still covering me, sank 1 merchant then sailed with convoy at same depth and had about 5 5DCs dropped in the whole engagement:-?

From what I know, which is not a lot:) if it was only a suspected contact it was attacked and dont worry about the expense

The KISS method is the best.:salute:

[BowfinSS287]

maybe you need to give the guard command more options
like it would circle the intended target ,and then stop and
listen then resume,if it made contact with enemy sub it could
warn the other destroyers,also i think you should look at .14
to see what you did to make them such good hunters,these
destroyers were like bulldogs....very hard to shake lose

[Ragtag]

for the first time i got smacked in the game at 140 meter depth. First time i ever seen depthcharge go this deep. And for the first time i had several torpedoes exploding premature even with torpedo set to impact. 3 of 6 exploded premature. Maybe abit to much?
nonetheless... you are really doing wonders here mate. Simply awesome. Way to go :salute::yeah::D

[TheDarkWraith]

ok using the Funnel smoke test mission I was able to identify some bugs in the AI logic. One was a HUGE bug that prevents the escorts from seeking you out when you are 'unknown'. Fixing bugs now......

[THE_MASK]

I played the funnel smoke mission . As soon as a torpedo hit an escort he started going backwards .

[TheDarkWraith]

I played the funnel smoke mission . As soon as a torpedo hit an escort he started going backwards .

I've seen that happen also. Trying to figure out why.

Boy I really FUBARd the IRAI mod starting with v0.0.20. This is taking some time to sort out and fix :damn:

[heisig1958]

Danke TDW,
für Deine super Arbeit.:salute::yeah:
Gruß Ralf!

[tonschk]

This Mod is AMAZING :woot: Thank you TheDarkWraith :salute:

[TheDarkWraith]

v0.0.25 released. See post #1 for details :|\\

This fixes the major bugs found as posted in earlier posts. There are a couple of minor things that need to be fixed but that can be done in next version.
I want to ensure that the AI is solid now in every scenario. Someone test this version with the funnel mission and post results please :DL I tested it and the AI is very reactive now in this single mission. That was a great single mission to use for debugging/error finding btw :up:

[THE_MASK]

Played the funnel smoke mission . I fired 4 torps at the escort and as soon as it spotted a torp (GAS) it reversed at full speed ( it was going forwards at fast speed then reversed instantaneously) . Maybe have some script torpedo avoidance (dont reverse) . I played it again and this time the escort turned towards the direction of the torps and headed towards the direction they were fired .

[laribe]

Used 25 to play Funnel smoke, sank CV. Close escort carried on steaming ? Should have turned back as the master was dead in the water.

The HK group turned towards contact and took a very slow cruise down the course. I could have got the other targets before they even got within asdic range. I think it should have a faster search speed now. As it was they never even got a sniff of me:yep:

I must admit I never saw any DDs going astern.

I tried out Military convoy, which I got from the forum somewhere, and what seemed to happen was that the DDs got the contact but only one was actually dropping DCs on it, even though they seemed to work in pairs on the attack run.

Bye the bye does someone know the attack run speed and minimum DC depth as I am trying to make some sense of this.

[TheDarkWraith]

Any HK group or convoy where you kill the leader will introduce the kill the leader bug present in the game. I have mitigated the results of this kill the leader bug as best as possible by letting each unit act as an independent. When they go independent there are no more tactics - thus I cannot guarantee any specific behavior. This is probably what you all are seeing now. In my testing with .25 I never killed the leader - I just damaged it. I really wish that Ubi would release another patch that addresses this kill the leader bug issue.

[andritsos]

hi, ur mod are really great, so i think the best we can do is make them better by reporting you problems and give you suggestions and ideas.
Today i played operation pedestal and i noticed something a bit strange: there are lot of planes coming to attack, however they attack you( good that they attack), but attack you and not the italian task force.Is there something like a priority for enemy planes to attack your human controlled u boat? or the u boat is higher in priority than a whole task force. Something like that made me come with an idea: is there a scale of priority in targets?so that enemies plane attack first the BB and cruiser ratehr attack you? or do some random, like 70 % of planes attack the task force and the rest attack you?
i really want to thank this community for the amazing job done!:salute:

[BowfinSS287]

version .25 is the same as before.....cripple the carrier and the escorts
stop dead in the water. I ran many tests and got the same result every
time, the one time i missed the carrier the destroyers turned towards
me and were preforming an S pattern to their approach...nice
this kill the leader bug is really killing me...:damn:

[laribe]

Yes found the same thing. What I did note was when I hit 1 of the DDs the others started hunting and attacking, but still not dropping that many DCs.:damn:

[TheDarkWraith]

Yes found the same thing. What I did note was when I hit 1 of the DDs the others started hunting and attacking, but still not dropping that many DCs.:damn:

How can they drop DCs when they have no clue where you are? In that test mission you are an 'unknown' contact to them. As an unknown they do not know where you are or how far away you are. If by chance during their search they discover you then you will get pounded hard by DCs. But majority of the time, if you maneuver, they will not find you.
In previous versions (around .12.-.15) I 'told' the escorts where you were so that they had a very good chance of discovering you. To me that was very unrealistic. I like it now where they search for you and if by chance they find you then you get pounded by DCs. To me that's more lifelike.

EDIT:

Do you all know how to use the AI debugger built into the game? If so, info from that will greatly help me fine tune and fix errors with this mod as the dynamics of it are far greater than any one person or group of people could possibly test. The info I would like to see is:
- Commander: what tactic is set. There should only be one set in his list - if there are multiple ones set then there's a problem in my code
- Units: what role is assigned to each unit. Again, only one role should be assigned to each unit - multiple roles indicate problem in my code
- If the commander has a tactic set then no entries under ShipNavigate should be highlighted (# means in use) - this applies to the commander and all units of the group. Check all trees to ensure nothing is set
- If you cripple the commander or kill it see if the tactic 'Operation Error' is set or not. It should be to let the units act independently. If it's not set what is set?

The AI debugger is a very powerful tool once you understand how to use it. Just be sure to hit the reload script button every once in awhile. I've found that using the AI debugger can cause tactics to 'hang' and pressing the reload script button from time to time cures this.

[laribe]

I will have a go on the de-bugger and see what happens:hmmm: I would disagree about your tactics though, as I stated before, in real life if it was even thought there was contact an attack was started, as you had in your earlier versions.

Speaking for myself I would prefer your earlier version mixed with your later version tactics, apart from that cursed bug:cool:

[andritsos]

question, i have put ur irai mod and the no hydrophone , in an order with others mods, what i noticed is that enemy planes in pedestal attack you ratehr the task force, second you say that there is a mission wolfpacks but in historical mission there is nothing, is my mod activated? i will give you my mod order later as i cant remember it now,
How to use and where when use teh debugger, thanks a lot

[jwilliams]

question, i have put ur irai mod and the no hydrophone , in an order with others mods, what i noticed is that enemy planes in pedestal attack you ratehr the task force, second you say that there is a mission wolfpacks but in historical mission there is nothing, is my mod activated? i will give you my mod order later as i cant remember it now,
How to use and where when use teh debugger, thanks a lot


I had the same problem with the wolfpack mission showing.... I found that if i loaded an historical mission (eg. pedestal), then quit, then the wolfpack mission, 5 of em, showed up.

I'm guessing its a stock game bug. :hmmm:

[Captain Joe]

I have noticed something strange on funnel smoke mission that if i torpido carrier even if i hit front of it then propellers drop off and no other hull damage.:hmmm:

Could be reason for speed drop to near 0 then eventually 0 and task force follows suite, Just something i found by chance will test more later.

[The General]

Um, there is no 'Funnel-Smoke' Single mission in my download of v0.25 :hmmm:

[Zedi]

I had the same problem with the wolfpack mission showing.... I found that if i loaded an historical mission (eg. pedestal), then quit, then the wolfpack mission, 5 of em, showed up.

I'm guessing its a stock game bug. :hmmm:

You can delete it and load it separate as a mod from here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=173717&highlight=wolfpack)

TDW, can you make your older versions available again? Like v0.15-17. I really loved those and I miss them. At least until you figure out how to fix the current bugs.

[Robin40]

I found CV Illustrious, 2 BB's and 11 dd's

I sank CV Illustrious, then 9 DD's began hunting me

I sat level at 146 mts and stopped

DD's went on hunting me for 36 hrs

Then I reverted to stock and evaded:)

However I think

Is it realistic that 9 DD'S stay on a silent sub for 36 hrs, leaving warships with only 2 DD's? How long do they stay on place?

Btw,when I evaded before surfacing I got peri depth and found 3 DD's waiting silent for me:woot:

[Hartmann]

I found CV Illustrious, 2 BB's and 11 dd's

I sank CV Illustrious, then 9 DD's began hunting me

I sat level at 146 mts and stopped

DD's went on hunting me for 36 hrs

Then I reverted to stock and evaded:)

However I think

Is it realistic that 9 DD'S stay on a silent sub for 36 hrs, leaving warships with only 2 DD's? How long do they stay on place?

Btw,when I evaded before surfacing I got peri depth and found 3 DD's waiting silent for me:woot:

A perfect behaviour for a Hunter killer group :hmmm:

Btw two scorts for 2 battleships is not so bad. still had a good protection

[BowfinSS287]

I think your work in the later versions will one day redefine AI as we know it, but until the kill leader bug gets fixed ,your earlier version .17 is the most playable imo...i will look forward to your announcement that you have figured it out or the dev's have informed you to how it supposed to work...Victory at all costs:yeah:

p.s. the help i can offer....testing and more testing

[Ragtag]

i love the small surprises in your mods. Just sank a transport and she fired a red flare :D
Awesome!

[TheDarkWraith]

i love the small surprises in your mods. Just sank a transport and she fired a red flare :D
Awesome!

Red flare is not from IRAI....it's from FX_Update mod :yep:

[Ragtag]

Red flare is not from IRAI....it's from FX_Update mod :yep:

Well, that one is your's to :)

[Will-Rommel]

Hi, just ran into a cruisers task force in the mediteranean, escort of various destroyers and frigates. (Using IRAI 0.0.25)

I decided to let them spot me on the surface, and when 4-5 escorts turned to attack me i ordered crash dive. (the 3 cruisers and 2 escorts sailed away, wich sounds good to me)

Back to the action, i couldnt dive fast enough to avoid pinging so they kind of swarmed over me. The deptcharges runs were very accurate and perfectly orchestred, but somehow they would not drop DC, and if they did, only 1 or 2 at a time.

I guess i don't have to mention that this method was not exactly efficient, as i didnt suffer a single damage and managed to reach 190-220m depth at silent running. The other sad part now was that it seemed i couldnt shake them off, it's early 1941 and i dont have decoys, so i have to outmanoeuver them and it was impossible to do so. I finally suffocated, but we haven't been touched by DC. (Too bad because they were passing over right on target)

I don't know what the best solution would be to solve this, but i'm sure your great mind will get around this one ! :up:

[Robin40]

Hi, just ran into a cruisers task force in the mediteranean, escort of various destroyers and frigates. (Using IRAI 0.0.25)

I decided to let them spot me on the surface, and when 4-5 escorts turned to attack me i ordered crash dive. (the 3 cruisers and 2 escorts sailed away, wich sounds good to me)

Back to the action, i couldnt dive fast enough to avoid pinging so they kind of swarmed over me. The deptcharges runs were very accurate and perfectly orchestred, but somehow they would not drop DC, and if they did, only 1 or 2 at a time.

I guess i don't have to mention that this method was not exactly efficient, as i didnt suffer a single damage and managed to reach 190-220m depth at silent running. The other sad part now was that it seemed i couldnt shake them off, it's early 1941 and i dont have decoys, so i have to outmanoeuver them and it was impossible to do so. I finally suffocated, but we haven't been touched by DC. (Too bad because they were passing over right on target)

I don't know what the best solution would be to solve this, but i'm sure your great mind will get around this one ! :up:

The same to me when I sank CV Illustrious

They sat down over me for 36 hrs...the I reverteed to stock and evaded

Ir appears they would remain over me for days

[PL_Cmd_Jacek]

I have the question regarding DD sensors at your mod. I made an experiment. Prepare a mission to check hop w good are sensors of DDs. I put DDs with crew from Novice till Elite in one row and check the range of a sensors on a map.

Obviously, depended to the crew a range is different. But what suprised me was how my underwater speed inpact on DDs' sensors.

Look at the screen below:

on 1st speed the range is rather small - it is ok

http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/4337/sh5img20100911191507.jpg (http://img814.imageshack.us/i/sh5img20100911191507.jpg/)

on the 2nd the range is really larger

http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/9185/sh5img20100911191527.jpg (http://img801.imageshack.us/i/sh5img20100911191527.jpg/)

but the next level of speed do not influence on sensors anymore :down:

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/9724/sh5img20100911191535.jpg (http://img96.imageshack.us/i/sh5img20100911191535.jpg/)

it is all the time the same.

I do not think that this is raelistic. How can I change it ?


edit:

WOOOW, I noticed that it is the same whaen you are surfaced. The visual sensor behave in the same way.

[tonschk]

Very " intelligent " way to check the performance of the AI, well done :up: PL_Cmd_Jacek , unless is a random efficiency performance effect included into this AI, who knows ?

[TheDarkWraith]

There is a 'knee' in the curve of where the AI sensors don't increase effectiveness anymore. I set the knee so that at very slow speeds of your sub you would be able to have some chance of escaping from the escorts. If I set the knee higher then you would be able to use higher bell speeds and your chances of being detected would be slim. Now that's not realistic. So the way I set it was the best compromise that I found during the development of the mod.