CIA used mock executions etc.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8215722.stm

"Handguns, electric drills and mock executions were used by CIA agents to elicit information from terror suspects, US media have reported.The reports contain details of a 2004 review by the CIA's inspector general that has been kept secret but is now due to be released next week."


All these methods are from the 'School of Americas' training manual for torture. When they dig a little deeper I'm sure they'll find the rest including all the nasty physical torture etc.

[Jimbuna]

Here we go again *heads for bunker*

[Aramike]

"Handguns, electric drills and mock executions were used by CIA agents to elicit information from terror suspects, US media have reported.The reports contain details of a 2004 review by the CIA's inspector general that has been kept secret but is now due to be released next week."

Oh NO!!! That dastardly CIA frightened people into giving information!

All these methods are from the 'School of Americas' training manual for torture. When they dig a little deeper I'm sure they'll find the rest including all the nasty physical torture etc.

Just like we could all dig deeper to find the love child you spawned with Rosanne Barr.

Oh gee, look at me ... I just made a stupid assumption about someone just because I'm not too fond of them...

You're rubbing off, OTH.

[Cohaagen]

Here's a good idea for a thread: a poll for a dedicated politics forum...and preferably a US politics subforum.

I mean, there are tens of thousands of blogs and sites which cater to every form of political view, including the extreme sentiments often voiced here. It's got so bad that a lot of folk don't feel like even looking at this part of SUBSIM, much less post here.

Originally Posted by Aramike

Oh NO!!! That dastardly CIA frightened people into giving information!

Ok so it would be ok to use these and also other methods against US soldiers/citizens...?

Just like we could all dig deeper to find the love child you spawned with Rosanne Barr.

Oh gee, look at me ... I just made a stupid assumption about someone just because I'm not too fond of them...

You're rubbing off, OTH.

Drinking already, Aramike? Remember not to drive.

[Aramike]

Ok so it would be ok to use and also other methods against US soldiers/citizens...?

Wait - you mean its NOT being used already? Surely you must mean that because I don't recall ever seeing you complain about the methods the US' adversaries use...

Your hypocrisy is deep. Try not to drown in it.

Drinking already, Aramike? Remember not to drive.

Not yet, but will be shortly.

Originally Posted by Aramike

Wait - you mean its NOT being used already? Surely you must mean that because I don't recall ever seeing you complain about the methods the US' adversaries use...

Your hypocrisy is deep. Try not to drown in it.

Oh so you're using the "they started!" - defence, am I right? And now the US is 'getting even' by using torture, both physical and mental?

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Oh so you're using the "they started!" - defence, am I right? And now the US is 'getting even' by using torture, both physical and mental?

Who said anything about revenge, or "getting even"?

Please stick to the argument and avoid trailing off into absurdities.

My point is that I really don't give a damn if we scare people into giving information needed to protect the second most sought after target in the terrorist world (behind Israel). The fact is that our opponents are using these methods (and far worse) anyway. Therefore, there is no reason/benefit to us restricting our methods of information extraction.

People like you just want to see us fight the threat with both hands tied behind our backs, as it were. Due to your complete intrasigence on this topic, your credibility is quite low.

I know you have difficulty comprehending this, but in the real world, being nice for the sake of being nice gets people killed.

Originally Posted by Aramike

Who said anything about revenge, or "getting even"?

Please stick to the argument and avoid trailing off into absurdities.

My point is that I really don't give a damn if we scare people into giving information needed to protect the second most sought after target in the terrorist world (behind Israel). The fact is that our opponents are using these methods (and far worse) anyway. Therefore, there is no reason/benefit to us restricting our methods of information extraction.

People like you just want to see us fight the threat with both hands tied behind our backs, as it were. Due to your complete intrasigence on this topic, your credibility is quite low.

I know you have difficulty comprehending this, but in the real world, being nice for the sake of being nice gets people killed.

There's a lot of people, and I'm not just talking about peacefolks and hippies, who think that using torture is much more problematic then it helps. It may produce some info but more often then not it's false info. It also plays right into the hands of people who claim the US is using unethical tactics.

And I'm saying this from a pro-US point of view, I don't think torture is the smart way to go. There's decades of torture use in places in like US-proxy states in South America, it's not like this stuff is exactly new.

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

There's a lot of people, and I'm not just talking about peacefolks and hippies, who think that using torture is much more problematic then it helps. It may produce some info but more often then not it's false info. It also plays right into the hands of people who claim the US is using unethical tactics.

And I'm saying this from a pro-US point of view, I don't think torture is the smart way to go. There's decades of torture use in places in like US-proxy states in South America, it's not like this stuff is exactly new.

Indeed, that's the common argument against torture. However, it discounts a couple things:

First, some methods of "torture" are more effective than others. Fear has always worked more effectively than pain, for instance. That's due to the nature of fear.

Secondly, the argument that torture doesn't work fails heavily when one considers that, if it wasn't working, it wouldn't be used.

Regarding ethics, the argument fails when the question is asked: what is more unethical? To me, allowing a disaster to happen because of weak-kneed intel methods is far worse than scaring someone into telling what they know.

Let's say we capture a known terrorist ringleader. He isn't saying anything, but we know a plot is about to unfold. To me it is morally repugnant to NOT use so-called enhanced methods of interrogation in that case. In essense, we are forced into making a decision between to distasteful things ... yet you want to fault us for making the decision that benefits us.

Originally Posted by Aramike

Indeed, that's the common argument against torture. However, it discounts a couple things:

First, some methods of "torture" are more effective than others. Fear has always worked more effectively than pain, for instance. That's due to the nature of fear.

Secondly, the argument that torture doesn't work fails heavily when one considers that, if it wasn't working, it wouldn't be used.

Regarding ethics, the argument fails when the question is asked: what is more unethical? To me, allowing a disaster to happen because of weak-kneed intel methods is far worse than scaring someone into telling what they know.

Let's say we capture a known terrorist ringleader. He isn't saying anything, but we know a plot is about to unfold. To me it is morally repugnant to NOT use so-called enhanced methods of interrogation in that case. In essense, we are forced into making a decision between to distasteful things ... yet you want to fault us for making the decision that benefits us.

What's much more likely is that torture becomes an everyday occurrence. And not just in use by the military but also all branches of the police force. Capture a suspect and he's not talking? Might as well slap him around, get an answer, any answer. Before you know it you have innocent people on the death row, can't imagine this type of thing happening? IMO these methods are just corrupting and no better to what the nazis used.

Also to go into this particular case, it seems that the whole point is that these guys don't necessarily have much info if indeed any. So by torturing them they become kind of martyrs.

[Max2147]

The Iranians used mock executions on the American hostages during the hostage crisis.

I'm generally not a fan of using fear/pain-inducing methods to get information out of prisoners, because it corrupts the quality of information you get. When the prisoner will say anything in order to please his captors, that's not a good thing.

Originally Posted by Max2147

The Iranians used mock executions on the American hostages during the hostage crisis.

Dude, that was in 1979?

The US instituted the Shah who had Savak carry out torture etc. operation throughout his reign. The USA also gave 'pointers' to Egypt when it comes to torture.

Pretty big article on Wikipedia about the subject.

Torture and the United States.

Also, what they talk about in the article, about shooting a gun in the next room and telling the person that they shot a person. That's also typical stuff from the School of Americas. They used to play a tape of women and children screaming in the next room and tell the person that it's his wife and children being tortured/killed. This stuff went on for years in South America and also in the Middle East, in nations that the US had relations to at some point in time.

[August]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

IMO these methods are just corrupting and no better to what the nazis used.

Only you could compare some ultimately harmless mind games to breaking bones, tearing off finger nails, gouging out eyeballs and the many other truely horrific and destructive tortures favored by the nazis.

[Letum]

Originally Posted by August

ultimately harmless mind games

There is a long list of conditions, such as PTSD, that are likely to arise from
such torture. Oftern they make the sufferer's life not worth living or lead
to suicide.

Workplace stress is sometimes enough to cripple a persons mind for life; let
alone the strain that the malice of an experienced torturer can place upon
someones mind when trying to 'break' them. It can very easily remove a
person's ability to function normally.

The magnitude of the effects of torture means it is certainly not 'harmless'.