CIA used mock executions etc.

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

There's a lot of people, and I'm not just talking about peacefolks and hippies, who think that using torture is much more problematic then it helps. It may produce some info but more often then not it's false info. It also plays right into the hands of people who claim the US is using unethical tactics.

And I'm saying this from a pro-US point of view, I don't think torture is the smart way to go. There's decades of torture use in places in like US-proxy states in South America, it's not like this stuff is exactly new.

Indeed, that's the common argument against torture. However, it discounts a couple things:

First, some methods of "torture" are more effective than others. Fear has always worked more effectively than pain, for instance. That's due to the nature of fear.

Secondly, the argument that torture doesn't work fails heavily when one considers that, if it wasn't working, it wouldn't be used.

Regarding ethics, the argument fails when the question is asked: what is more unethical? To me, allowing a disaster to happen because of weak-kneed intel methods is far worse than scaring someone into telling what they know.

Let's say we capture a known terrorist ringleader. He isn't saying anything, but we know a plot is about to unfold. To me it is morally repugnant to NOT use so-called enhanced methods of interrogation in that case. In essense, we are forced into making a decision between to distasteful things ... yet you want to fault us for making the decision that benefits us.

Originally Posted by Aramike

Indeed, that's the common argument against torture. However, it discounts a couple things:

First, some methods of "torture" are more effective than others. Fear has always worked more effectively than pain, for instance. That's due to the nature of fear.

Secondly, the argument that torture doesn't work fails heavily when one considers that, if it wasn't working, it wouldn't be used.

Regarding ethics, the argument fails when the question is asked: what is more unethical? To me, allowing a disaster to happen because of weak-kneed intel methods is far worse than scaring someone into telling what they know.

Let's say we capture a known terrorist ringleader. He isn't saying anything, but we know a plot is about to unfold. To me it is morally repugnant to NOT use so-called enhanced methods of interrogation in that case. In essense, we are forced into making a decision between to distasteful things ... yet you want to fault us for making the decision that benefits us.

What's much more likely is that torture becomes an everyday occurrence. And not just in use by the military but also all branches of the police force. Capture a suspect and he's not talking? Might as well slap him around, get an answer, any answer. Before you know it you have innocent people on the death row, can't imagine this type of thing happening? IMO these methods are just corrupting and no better to what the nazis used.

Also to go into this particular case, it seems that the whole point is that these guys don't necessarily have much info if indeed any. So by torturing them they become kind of martyrs.

[Max2147]

The Iranians used mock executions on the American hostages during the hostage crisis.

I'm generally not a fan of using fear/pain-inducing methods to get information out of prisoners, because it corrupts the quality of information you get. When the prisoner will say anything in order to please his captors, that's not a good thing.

Originally Posted by Max2147

The Iranians used mock executions on the American hostages during the hostage crisis.

Dude, that was in 1979?

The US instituted the Shah who had Savak carry out torture etc. operation throughout his reign. The USA also gave 'pointers' to Egypt when it comes to torture.

Pretty big article on Wikipedia about the subject.

Torture and the United States.

Also, what they talk about in the article, about shooting a gun in the next room and telling the person that they shot a person. That's also typical stuff from the School of Americas. They used to play a tape of women and children screaming in the next room and tell the person that it's his wife and children being tortured/killed. This stuff went on for years in South America and also in the Middle East, in nations that the US had relations to at some point in time.

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Also, what they talk about in the article, about shooting a gun in the next room and telling the person that they shot a person. That's also typical stuff from the School of Americas. They used to play a tape of women and children screaming in the next room and tell the person that it's his wife and children being tortured/killed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8219307.stm

"CIA agents threatened to kill a terror suspect's children as part of interrogation techniques, a newly declassified report has revealed."

Who told you first? What? Who?

I'm telling you I know this stuff. I'll tell you one more thing, we haven't reached the bottom of the US scum bucket yet, we're not even halfway yet. There'll be more of this stuff so better prepare ya'll.

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8219307.stm

"CIA agents threatened to kill a terror suspect's children as part of interrogation techniques, a newly declassified report has revealed."

Who told you first? What? Who?

I'm telling you I know this stuff. I'll tell you one more thing, we haven't reached the bottom of the US scum bucket yet, we're not even halfway yet. There'll be more of this stuff so better prepare ya'll.

Yeah, umm, so?

Did the CIA actually have those children at gunpoint? Did they actually kill the children? No??? Wow!

Must have been emotionally awful to hear that for the terror suspect. Like I give a damn.

First you're crying about the physical well-being of terrorists. Now you want them to be emotionally comfortable too. What next, a suite at the top of the Hyatt?

The whole hidden pattern of torture is being revealed and stuff like the Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, extraordinary renditions and now this are all parts of. And more will be revealed.

The US 'stocks' are declining in the world, has been for decades. I see no change in that trend except maybe a quicker spiral down. Population figures vs. Finland won't change that, unfortunately I think it's the other way around.

[August]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

IMO these methods are just corrupting and no better to what the nazis used.

Only you could compare some ultimately harmless mind games to breaking bones, tearing off finger nails, gouging out eyeballs and the many other truely horrific and destructive tortures favored by the nazis.

[Letum]

Originally Posted by August

ultimately harmless mind games

There is a long list of conditions, such as PTSD, that are likely to arise from
such torture. Oftern they make the sufferer's life not worth living or lead
to suicide.

Workplace stress is sometimes enough to cripple a persons mind for life; let
alone the strain that the malice of an experienced torturer can place upon
someones mind when trying to 'break' them. It can very easily remove a
person's ability to function normally.

The magnitude of the effects of torture means it is certainly not 'harmless'.

[August]

Originally Posted by Letum

The magnitude of the effects of torture means it is certainly not 'harmless'.

It's nothing compared to what the nazis did to their victims and oth knows it.

[Letum]

Originally Posted by August

It's nothing compared to what the nazis did

That's one hell of a justification.

[August]

Originally Posted by Letum

That's one hell of a justification.

I didn't justify it. I rejected Herrings equalization.

Originally Posted by August

Only you could compare some ultimately harmless mind games to breaking bones, tearing off finger nails, gouging out eyeballs and the many other truely horrific and destructive tortures favored by the nazis.

How do you know it's just that? Would the CIA or whatever US military/private military/ally admit if it was using physical torture? IMO this is like them saying "Ok we torture but not physically". Excuse me but I don't believe it stays there. The 'extraordinary renditions' etc. that they used talk of a much larger system at work with flights going around the world, even in Scandinavia with people ending up who knows where. Places where there are no journalists or lawyers. Yea you're right, it's not like the nazis. The nazis never had a global transportation system for torture and, who knows, probably killing as well.

I don't believe the Americans at all in this issue and they are supposed to be kinda like our military allies in the world right now, or something.

Edit. And to call mental torture "harmless"? Well, that kinda sums the mentality according to which torture is acceptable.

[Thomen]

OTH, you don't need to look over the pond, if you want to blame someone for the use of torture. You make it look like the US invented it. In recent history, France was a worse offender (see Algeria) and they even trained Argentinians on how to use 'enhanced methods'. Russia has a history of torture use, so does China, Japan, Germany and so on. Hell you will have a hard time not to come up with a country that did not commit torture or atrocities at some point in the last 100 years. Even Finland did it.

Your blaming of the USA for everything becomes very tiresome, and is IMO far removed from reality.

Torture happens, and yes it sucks, but blaming torture solely on the US is very foolish and narrowminded.

I don't think any other nation uses torture in the scale that US does. France? Where does France torture today? Algeria was a long time ago. Japan? Germany? Out of the nations you mention maybe Russia and China are iffy when it comes to their own domestic situation and treatment of prisoners but even they don't wage global wars let alone have global systems for torturing people. Also even if both Russia and China are becoming more wealthy I would not count them as rich nations like the US that could afford not to use torture, that is torture isn't due to bad condition in prisons or something like that. If US tortures, it's deliberate.

Blaming the US tires you? Oh I'm so sorry, have a cup of coffee or something.