CIA used mock executions etc.

[August]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

IMO these methods are just corrupting and no better to what the nazis used.

Only you could compare some ultimately harmless mind games to breaking bones, tearing off finger nails, gouging out eyeballs and the many other truely horrific and destructive tortures favored by the nazis.

[Letum]

Originally Posted by August

ultimately harmless mind games

There is a long list of conditions, such as PTSD, that are likely to arise from
such torture. Oftern they make the sufferer's life not worth living or lead
to suicide.

Workplace stress is sometimes enough to cripple a persons mind for life; let
alone the strain that the malice of an experienced torturer can place upon
someones mind when trying to 'break' them. It can very easily remove a
person's ability to function normally.

The magnitude of the effects of torture means it is certainly not 'harmless'.

[August]

Originally Posted by Letum

The magnitude of the effects of torture means it is certainly not 'harmless'.

It's nothing compared to what the nazis did to their victims and oth knows it.

[Letum]

Originally Posted by August

It's nothing compared to what the nazis did

That's one hell of a justification.

[August]

Originally Posted by Letum

That's one hell of a justification.

I didn't justify it. I rejected Herrings equalization.

[CaptainHaplo]

"It leads to PTSD and often times suicide."

Uhm... the problem? If a terrorist wants to X himself, I got no problem with it, providing he doesn't kill or harm anyone else in the process.

You make it sound like a dead terrorist is a bad thing.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

"It leads to PTSD and often times suicide."

Uhm... the problem? If a terrorist wants to X himself, I got no problem with it, providing he doesn't kill or harm anyone else in the process.

You make it sound like a dead terrorist is a bad thing.

If it turns out you have missed, will you be willing to execute yourself in recompense?

I don't have problems with End over Means, but on two conditions:
1) You can't complain when anyone else does it on similar computations, past present or future.
2) If you missed, then all you have is the Bad End from your Means, so you should be willing to pay the commensurate price. If you hit, you still better hit the jackpot or you should still be willing to pay for the remnant "blow back".

Originally Posted by August

It's nothing compared to what the nazis did to their victims and oth knows it.

How is it incomparable? In both cases, the result is the same, a badly damaged person.

Our present world, IMO, overemphasizes the physical over the mental, the repairable hardware over the software. Scream at a person, insult them for all you are worth, but for some reason the moment he throws one punch at you he's the bad guy and is likely to defend himself, even though really the mental damage you have inflicted is arguably more than the damage from the punch, which would probably quickly heal to nothing...

[Letum]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

"It leads to PTSD and often times suicide."

Uhm... the problem? If a terrorist wants to X himself, I got no problem with it, providing he doesn't kill or harm anyone else in the process.

You make it sound like a dead terrorist is a bad thing.

If someone held you in the contempt that you rightly hold terrorists in, would
you be happy for them to use the same justification against you?


Of course it is a bad thing.
Why would it be a good thing?

[Stealth Hunter]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Uhm... the problem? If a terrorist wants to X himself, I got no problem with it, providing he doesn't kill or harm anyone else in the process.

The problem is that most of these people have been arrested and detained as "terrorists" on unreliable information, at best. If you've ever watched National Geographic's special on the CIA (which was on about two months ago), you'll see how they "find" these people: by running around to farmers and asking them for information on neighbors and strange things happening in their locality. That's it. Surprised? So was I.

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

You make it sound like a dead terrorist is a bad thing.

IF they're a terrorist. You've definitely got a few in there- it's inevitable when you amass that many people. The question is, which ones are in ties with terrorism?

Originally Posted by August

Only you could compare some ultimately harmless mind games to breaking bones, tearing off finger nails, gouging out eyeballs and the many other truely horrific and destructive tortures favored by the nazis.

How do you know it's just that? Would the CIA or whatever US military/private military/ally admit if it was using physical torture? IMO this is like them saying "Ok we torture but not physically". Excuse me but I don't believe it stays there. The 'extraordinary renditions' etc. that they used talk of a much larger system at work with flights going around the world, even in Scandinavia with people ending up who knows where. Places where there are no journalists or lawyers. Yea you're right, it's not like the nazis. The nazis never had a global transportation system for torture and, who knows, probably killing as well.

I don't believe the Americans at all in this issue and they are supposed to be kinda like our military allies in the world right now, or something.

Edit. And to call mental torture "harmless"? Well, that kinda sums the mentality according to which torture is acceptable.

[Thomen]

OTH, you don't need to look over the pond, if you want to blame someone for the use of torture. You make it look like the US invented it. In recent history, France was a worse offender (see Algeria) and they even trained Argentinians on how to use 'enhanced methods'. Russia has a history of torture use, so does China, Japan, Germany and so on. Hell you will have a hard time not to come up with a country that did not commit torture or atrocities at some point in the last 100 years. Even Finland did it.

Your blaming of the USA for everything becomes very tiresome, and is IMO far removed from reality.

Torture happens, and yes it sucks, but blaming torture solely on the US is very foolish and narrowminded.

I don't think any other nation uses torture in the scale that US does. France? Where does France torture today? Algeria was a long time ago. Japan? Germany? Out of the nations you mention maybe Russia and China are iffy when it comes to their own domestic situation and treatment of prisoners but even they don't wage global wars let alone have global systems for torturing people. Also even if both Russia and China are becoming more wealthy I would not count them as rich nations like the US that could afford not to use torture, that is torture isn't due to bad condition in prisons or something like that. If US tortures, it's deliberate.

Blaming the US tires you? Oh I'm so sorry, have a cup of coffee or something.

[Thomen]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

I don't think any other nation uses torture in the scale that US does. France? Where does France torture today? Algeria was a long time ago. Japan? Germany? Out of the nations you mention maybe Russia and China are iffy when it comes to their own domestic situation and treatment of prisoners but even they don't wage global wars let alone have global systems for torturing people. Also even if both Russia and China are becoming more wealthy I would not count them as rich nations like the US that could afford not to use torture, that is torture isn't due to bad condition in prisons or something like that. If US tortures, it's deliberate.

Blaming the US tires you? Oh I'm so sorry, have a cup of coffee or something.

All you do is, just to prove how narrow minded you and your agenda is. Now you are making excuses for China, Russia and the like, just so you can keep the blame on the US. While I comment that you seem to be comfortable enough to voice your opinion and stand by it, it also seems to become clear that all you realy want to do is stirring the pot and cause trouble.

All I see here is bunch of crap so you can keep on your track. Do you have any data on backing up your claim that the US is the biggest torturer out there? And don't come with that 'richest nations' stuff. That artificially narrow your selection like a bad poll does. Either you torture or you don't. Circumstances do not matter.

Originally Posted by Thomen

All you do is, just to prove how narrow minded you and your agenda is. Now you are making excuses for China, Russia and the like, just so you can keep the blame on the US. While I comment that you seem to be comfortable enough to voice your opinion and stand by it, it also seems to become clear that all you realy want to do is stirring the pot and cause trouble.

All I see here is bunch of crap so you can keep on your track. Do you have any data on backing up your claim that the US is the biggest torturer out there? And don't come with that 'richest nations' stuff. That artificially narrow your selection like a bad poll does. Either you torture or you don't. Circumstances do not matter.

Data about what? The secret rendition flights? History of US torture and connections to other nations that used torture, like for example South Africa during the apartheid era? I don't know how many centuries of torture is needed for people to be able to critizise the US.

Also, could you explain how torture somewhere else makes US torture ok? Would torture say in the Philippines make it ok for Finns to use torture?

[Thomen]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Data about what? The secret rendition flights? History of US torture and connections to other nations that used torture, like for example South Africa during the apartheid era? I don't know how many centuries of torture is needed for people to be able to critizise the US.

Also, could you explain how torture somewhere else makes US torture ok? Would torture say in the Philippines make it ok for Finns to use torture?

Nobody is saying that critizing is not ok. Putting the sole blame, like you do, is what people have a problem with.

Nowhere I said that it is ok to torture. You where the one that started to make excuses for other countries uses of those methods just to keep the focus on a single entity. So, either pay up or shut up, as the saying goes. Provide proof that the US is biggest contemporary global torturer.