The next HBO/Spielberg/Hanks WW2 miniseries is a go...

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Your men go first.

Your first priority is to win the war. Hartenstein had sunken an enemy vessel. Check.

Your second priority is your men's safety. Hartenstein radioed the Allies, informing them of the situation. Check.

Your third priority is the safety of Civilians and captured enemy personnel. Hartenstein gave them food and water. Check.

If the Allies had informed the Ascencion Island base that a U-boat was rescuing survivors, it would have all worked out.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

Machines break. People don't.

The argument for drones is that people do indeed break, and suffer and die. A machine can withstand more g-force, and if it is lost it was only a machine.

I'm not saying I support that argument, just explaining it.

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

Oh, and here's an example of how one Australian soldier's humanity saved a life.

Of course people display humanity in the midst of war. It happens a lot. That doesn't change Skybird's point that war itself is about nothing more than killing and dying. Trust me, it's not fun at all.

In the words of William Tecumseh Sherman:
"There is many a boy here today who looks on war as all glory, but, boys, it is all hell."
-Address at Columbus, Ohio, April 11, 1880

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I think history already has proven your views - well, naive. The feudal lords letting their peasant get slaughtered for their own fame and accumulation of land and influence, or willed the massacring of the civilian villagers over wars of desire. Torture. Lacking medical abilities. The effects of medieval weapons on the human body (modern weapons are humane compared to what some of them, or old musketeer bullets, do to flesh and bone). Feudal class letting their tin soldier armies die in Napoleonic squares, sometimes thinking of doing that as the feudal classes' legitimate "hobby".

War never was humane. Never. And it is not today. And where you save the enemy from the grim determination of your will, the buddy beside you, wearing the same colours like you, maybe must pay with his life for your "noblesse" towards the enemy. The enemy is not to be admired - he is to be wiped out. Your admiration you can stick to where the sun does not shine. that is the difference between the reality of war, and romantic daydreaming.

There is nothing noble and honourful and humane in war. And the more this is forgotten, the more war there is and the more suffering there is and the more careless war gets started, waged, tolerated. Especially the past 12 years are a lesson that should remind some of us of that old truth, I think. If it would have been remembered while there still was time, some of the wars we now have would not be there, and the others we could not avoid would have been ended with devastating defeats if not annihilation of the enemy by now. You cannot win war by playing fair and limit yourself.

I condemn all those fools thinking of war holding a humane or noble dimension. War, you do it, or you don't, but if you do it, do it without regret, without scruples and without remorse.

It would be good, however, if you are certain of your motives why you go to war, and that you make sure your standards by which you decide it. can stand the test of what lies ahead.

Fame. Glory. Honour. Noblesse. Truth. Everybody should clean his mouth with soap when thinking about war in terms like this. Kill the enemy and destroy his means, stay alive if you can and care for the guy next to you, beyond this: shut up - that's good enough. Maybe the biggest lie in the history of all mankind: the myth of the "just war". I know only wars of desire, which always are retarded and stupid, and wars of necessity, which cannot - and should not! - be avoided. Flip a coin - it is either the one or the other side. No inbetween, no little bit of both sides.

I'm going to say this good and clear. I do not admire the enemy. I do not see fame and glory in going to war. I highly respect those that do go to war. I have a good amount of family members in the military. I even have military family members in Germany. I respect those who defend my home. Let's face it. World Peace is impossible. War is inevitable. If you want to cut me down for wanting to defend my fellow citizens so that they can sleep safe and sound at night and see their kids off to school the next day, go ahead. If you want to shoot down my argument and tell me that I love war and I am wrong, go ahead.

I will not care. I will not be bothered by this. I want to protect freedom and what I believe is good. I want to give back to my country. I want to see to it that the Average Joe has the right to walk down the street without fear of being arrested/killed/deported/etc...


Try all you want, but I am me. You cannot change that.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

I do not see fame and glory in going to war.

But that's exactly how you sound as you say it.

Try all you want, but I am me. You cannot change that.

That's fine. What you can't understand yet is that you do see war as a glorious thing. We all do when we're young. And it is that very attitude that helps wars come about. Yes, you should be prepared to defend what you believe in. You should also pray that you never have to. If you do you'll end up like Sherman. And you may never recover.

[August]

Dunno why but this TR quote seems appropriate here:

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

Oh, and here's an example of how one Australian soldier's humanity saved a life.

In a similar vein but at the other end if the scale, alledgedly in 1918, a young British soldier took aim at a wounded German soldier as the Germans retreated from the battle of Marcoing, but couldn't bring himself to shoot a wounded man, the German soldier nodded his thanks and continued his retreat. The British soldiers name was Henry Tandey, the German soldiers name was Adolf Hitler...

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

But that's exactly how you sound as you say it.


That's fine. What you can't understand yet is that you do see war as a glorious thing. We all do when we're young. And it is that very attitude that helps wars come about. Yes, you should be prepared to defend what you believe in. You should also pray that you never have to. If you do you'll end up like Sherman. And you may never recover.

I don't mean to make it sound that way. I understand that war is a horrible, horrible, horrible thing to go through. I don't want to go to war, but I will if my country needs me. All I want to do is fly in the military. I want to do something I love while protecting what I love. Yes, I am young. I have uncles with PTSD. I know the horrors of war. The discovery channel did a documentary about my uncle's unit; 2nd Bn, 27th Infantry, or The Wolfhounds. It's called God's Soldier. It's on youtube. My uncle served as a doctor for one of the most dangerous postings in Northern Iraq. He lost buddies left and right. He told me about a period of time where they had "Ramp Ceremonies" almost every day. People were dropping like flies. There was a fellow from actually within 50 miles of where I live who was in that unit. He was shot through the neck on guard duty and my uncle was the one to work on him....There is now a stretch of road outside of Cape Girardeau, Missouri with his name on it. It's a sad thing. I don't want to be a stretch of road or a white gravestone but I am prepared to take the risk. I don't think war is glorious and a good thing. Yes, there are certain things that I find interesting every once in a while. I like learning about Allied operations in the Pacific. I think it can be interesting sometimes to learn about the terribly horrible things that our guys had to live through. I don't glorify it. That's simply the way it happened. I once heard that the Japanese would strap a guy to the ground and plant bamboo underneath him so that the bamboo would grow into the man and impale him slowly. I found that odd. I wanted to know more. Yes, it was interesting at the time but I do not glorify dying this way. I don't glorify anything about it. Heck, I'm not even completely sure it was the Japanese. It might've been the Vietcong. I don't remember the full story. I don't even know if that story is completely true. It's true that I respect the men who died in those horrible ways. Anyone who can fight for their country deserves respect. No matter how much I do not like that country, those people are stepping up (Knowing that they might not come back) to defend what they think is right. Unless it's service by requirement, I'm sure a lot of those guys don't want to fight. I might be going back on things I've said before. I try to keep a neutral opinion online. I don't want to drift too far to my personal opinion (im sure you would really hate me then) because I'm very conservative and I don't want to offend anyone with certain comments that would be okay in general talking around Southern Missouri. Some people around here can be very racist. Some are extremely against Muslims. I, personally, don't think that being racist against Obama will fix our problem. I don't think that "nuking every last Hajji out there" will fix the Middle East. It won't solve any problems to do that kind of stuff. I try to keep neutral and open minded. When it comes to the defense of my country, I am very strongly opinionated in one direction. Here on Subsim, the European Liberals like to cut down people like me. It is what it is. There are always people out there willing to accuse me of "Glorifying war" and cutting down every statement I make. I'm simply trying to stay neutral without exposing some of my more extreme opinions. I could go on all day about how I think this country is going in the wrong direction. I might not be able to justify some of it with facts, but it is an OPINION! Opinions are not always completely based on fact. They teach you that in Elementary English Class. It can be influenced by where you are from, what your family thinks/does, and what your religion says/does. I'm Catholic and I think Abortion is a terrible thing, but I guarantee there are some Pro-Choice people on here somewhere to cut down my argument with what they think is right. I think that there is something seriously wrong with our handling of illegal immigration. We are fighting a war here in America and nobody cares. Why? Because Mitt Romney was right when he said that 47% of America won't get up and get a job.

I know that you will pick apart this post sentence by sentence and give me a grilling about how I'm wrong. Opinions don't always have to be correct. Hitler had an opinion about how the Jews were bad. He backed it up with a few facts and some creative speeches. People believed him. I just today watched a PBS documentary about Antisemitism in the US during World War 2. Jews are not the cause of all of Germany's problems. The Jews are not terrible people. Same thing with current Muslim conflicts. There will be some bad apples in the bunch. Some groups are more prone to bad apples than others but Muslims can be a peaceful people.


I think the quote that August posted was great. Critics can say and do what they want. The man in the arena is trying. The Critics can talk about how he's doing it wrong or he believes in the wrong things all they want. The man in the arena won't care. He is there because he wants to be there. I have a quote to add here too...

"Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent"

I'm not sure who said that, but it's on a poster that ive seen many times. You guys can try and try, but you can't change the way I feel without my consent. I can give in to do what the Critic wants or I can have faith in my task that I volunteered for. If I want to fly, I will fly. You can't change the way i live my life because you accuse me of glorifying something that is unpopular among Europeans. I live in Hillbilly Country. Of course war is going to be supported by us Rednecks. There is no changing that. Hillbilly Country will be Hillbilly Country for a long time. There are people around here willing to fight in a Civil War to keep our gun rights. There is a great difference of opinion around here on Subsim. You will call us "silly ol' hics that need to go back to their shack and rethink this." Guns are important to the people around here. We do not commit mass shootings. We hunt. We target shoot. We defend our homes. If our right to defend ourselves was taken away, most of the people around here would fight up a storm. I know people predicting what's going to happen. Some are saying that gun control will pass, Civil War 2 will break out, and we will be fighting the United Nations. Some say that it won't pass and we'll be fine.

It's all a big mess and everyone has their own opinion. A lady once told me that "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion" every time I mentioned Politics. She was right. Everyone can think how they want to.

I'm done ranting now. Go ahead and tell me i'm wrong.

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

I'm done ranting now. Go ahead and tell me i'm wrong.

You should avoid GT if feel the need to defend yourself like that.You can say what ever you want here in GT so long as it follows the Forum rules so why do you not post your true opinion?

If you post something in Gt you should be prepared for the reaction to it from a person of opposing point of view. No one on here is trying to change your opinion that it your own lack of confidence.

Also slightly wall of textish and hard to read.(your post/rant)

August quote comes from a speech by T. Roosevelt generally called "The man in the Arena" he may be thinking of what Sailor Steve was saying to you because Steve has experienced war and you have not.He might also be trying to say ignore Skybird(he is the critic and your in the arena)

I would say post what you really feel don't be neutral about something if you do not really feel that way and don't back down from what you feel because in your last post you did do that to some extent.

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by Oberon

the German soldier nodded his thanks and continued his retreat.

the German soldiers name was Adolf Hitler...

At least Adolf had manners back then

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

You should avoid GT if feel the need to defend yourself like that.You can say what ever you want here in GT so long as it follows the Forum rules so why do you not post your true opinion?

If you post something in Gt you should be prepared for the reaction to it from a person of opposing point of view. No one on here is trying to change your opinion that it your own lack of confidence.

Also slightly wall of textish and hard to read.(your post/rant)

August quote comes from a speech by T. Roosevelt generally called "The man in the Arena" he may be thinking of what Sailor Steve was saying to you because Steve has experienced war and you have not.He might also be trying to say ignore Skybird.

I usually avoid GT topics that lead to me getting riled up. I just feel strongly about certain things and our military is one of them. Sailor Steve has experienced war. I highly respect him because of that. He has defended the things that he believed in. He defended my right to guns, an education, speech, press, and all of those other good things. I do not usually post my whole, true opinion because some of my views would offend some people. I try to keep an open mind so that I can learn about things from a different point of view. I am sorry that my rant was hard to read. I typed for a long time and cannot help it. I like you guys, but sometimes....you have a way of pressing my buttons. Anyone who has fought for this country is worthy of deep respect. I don't usually have arguments of this magnitude. (Raptor1 and I had a nice argument about the possibility of a self-sufficient Mermaid civilization that is causing global warming and their Nuclear Fusion Technology and why they don't speed up global warming and invade now. It was fun)


I try to learn things all the time. Before Subsim, I had no respect for the Navy. I was a firm believer in the Army-Navy Rivalry. I saw the real heroes as "Army Men" and the Navy inferior to the army in everything....Then this thing called Silent Hunter 2 came along. Aided by Das Boot and Subsim.com...My opinion was dramatically changed. 2 years ago, if you would've told me that I will love submarines and Naval stuff, I would've slapped my knee and fallen into a dramatic laughing spasm. I would've labeled you crazy. Now, I try to see different points of view while leaving out my own biases and opinions. I can learn so much more about the world this way. I have recently taken a liking to country music. I hated country music since the first time I heard it. Then, I heard Johnny Horton's historical music...then a friend pointed me to Jason Aldean, Eric Church, and Florida Georgia Line. I would've had a similar laughing spasm 6 months ago if you told me that I would like country music. If I keep an open mind, I have found out that I can learn so much and I can grow in my interests. I can now sit and listen to Country music on Pandora and play Silent Hunter. Pre-1900 History may be the next spark that turns into a fire. I have shut out things I deemed "unlikable" but now when you see it in a different way and in a different context....It can be pretty interesting. We have completely derailed this thread from it's original purpose. My "lack of confidence" can be proven by these points. I try to see things from other points of view and leave out my opinion. Sometimes, those two things come together in a gray area. Some of those issues I feel too strongly about. I can't even imagine taking the side of Hitler in his argument against the Jews. The Holocaust was a terrible thing. I couldn't even think about to argue against guns. Guns are a wonderful part of human technology if used in the correct manner.

I normally avoid topics like this that will set me off into an opinionated argumentative rant. Also, I mean no offense to anyone who served in the Navy. I'm just simply outlining my transformation. I would spit up a storm for weeks when the Army lost the Army-Navy game...(They still haven't won for over 10 years... ) Now, I can respect the Navy's fighting men in the same way I do the Army, Marines and Air Force. I have yet to be convinced on the Coast Guard though...You guys are going to have to work on me there...


Subsim is a great place...

[Hottentot]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I think history already has proven your views - well, naive.

And that's where I stopped reading the post.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

I do not admire the enemy.

In one of Agatha Christie's mysteries written during the war her characters have an interesting conversation about admiring the enemy, or rather its reverse. One of the characters asks why they hate the Germans. Another character says "We have to, or else we wouldn't fight them." Of course by that time Germany had conquered most of Europe and was working on Britain, so the British saw what Nazi aggression had done to Poland and France, and had good cause to fight. The Americans felt the same way about the Japanese, again with good cause.

But what about the Germans? They were told that the invasion of Poland was a reaction to Polish aggression, and that France and Britain had declared war on Germany for no other reason that Germany had defended herself. Playing any wargame from the German side, or watching movies like Das Boot, gives us something of the commonality of fighting men. Watching Letters From Iwo Jima made me look at the common Japanese soldier, especially the scene where the commander translates the letter from a dying American to his mother.

A great many people still rail about how our own government forced us to lose to little Vietnam. Those damned hippies ruined everything. Today I agree with the anti-war protesters; we should never have been there in the first place. I was just a radioman on a destroyer. I didn't pull the trigger. I did receive the messages from the marines, though. Two bunkers knocked out. Five trucks destroyed. Thirty-three bodies counted. Thirty-three people I never met, who never did anything to me. I didn't pull the trigger, but I was indirectly responsible for their deaths. Of course they would have killed our marines and soldiers, perhaps willingly, and that's justification enough for killing them first. On the other hand we justified killing the Germans and Japanese in WW2 because they were the aggressors. They were the bad guys. They started it.

But who started Vietnam? The Warhawks would tell you that Ho Chi Minh started it, because he and his Communist buddies wanted to rule Southeast Asia. Others will tell you that it was Ho Chi Minh who won the election, and his enemies took the southern half of the country and then asked America for help. War supporters will tell you that Ho was a Communist. Anti-war types will tell you that the Americans refused to help the Vietnamese in their fight to get rid of the French, so the Communist Chinese were the only ones who would sell him weapons, and that he had to become a Communist to garner that support. War supporters will tell you that we went to the aid of a legitimate South Vietnamese government. War protesters would tell you that we helped set up that government, and when he proved to be ineffective we helped engineer his overthrow and then gave full support to his replacement.

I'm not saying who was right or wrong, because my opinions are just that. What I'm saying is that while everybody has opinions, and some of them are strong to the point of being extreme, the reality is that in my war there was no clear aggressor; no one cause you can point to and say "We were there because these people attacked us." We weren't there for self-defense, and we weren't there for revenge. We were just there. We hated the Vietnamese. We called them gooks, slopes, slants and worse. And we used those terms on all of them, not just the "enemy". They were useless little yellow people, and they all looked the same. We were there because our government told us to go there, told us this was the enemy, and because we were good patriotic Americans we believed them, and we believed in the cause. When some Americans started to point out that "the cause" might not be so just, they were vilified and called traitors, anti-American and even closet Commies.

Several years ago I met one of those Vietnamese transplants. It was in my hometown of Redondo Beach, California. He owned a gas station, and we had an interesting conversation about the war and its aftermath. He was about my age, and seemed to be a real nice guy. If I still lived there we might have become friends.

I once saw a picture of a Vietnamese farmer in a rice paddy with a plow hitched to a water buffalo. The caption said "At night he might put on black pajamas and fight with the Viet Cong against our troops." When I read that my first thought was "Of course at night he might put on black pajamas and help in the fight to drive the round-eyed foreign invaders out of his country." A couple of years ago I was fortunate to be turned onto a book by a former North Vietnamese soldier, and was surprised to find that his experiences paralleled those of many Americans, right down to having his own people think of him as some sort of freak. It's called The Sorrow Of War, by Bao Ninh. I highly recommend it.
http://www.amazon.com/Sorrow-War-Nov...ar+by+bao+ninh

My point is that before you "despise the enemy", make sure of who the enemy really is. Be absolutely sure that the people telling you that you need to fight for your country, family and honor don't have their own hidden agenda. Make sure the "enemy" really is a danger to you and yours, and not just a scapegoat.

"Perhaps it is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to provisions against danger, real or pretended, from abroad.”
-James Madison

"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and for exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
-Hermann Göring

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Hottentot

And that's where I stopped reading the post.

And again Skybird's penchant for heavy-handedness backfires. The rest was actually a very good post, and well worth reading.

[Stealhead]

So you respect those that serve to defend this country but your not convinced on the Coast Guard? That seems a bit illogical seeing as the Coast Guard saves for US citizens each year than any other branch.

Don't worry about thread derailment it is fairly common in GT.There are millions of Americans that have been in war and they all have many differing opinions some that you may or may not agree with.Did you know that Sailor Steve took part in protests against the Vietnam War after he left the Navy?(I am pretty sure he mentioned this once correct me if I am wrong Steve).

[Oberon]

Sounds to me that you are, what we all have been and are, still formulating opinions and views on the world.

You are correct in what you think, and equally you are wrong, as am I, Skybird and everyone else who has posted in this thread since everyone will always have differing viewpoints.

I have a great deal of respect for Skybird, I don't follow his beliefs on Muslims, so we agree to disagree on that, but we share a lot of similar beliefs on humanity and its chaotic ways. He believes in sorting out problems here on Earth first, I believe that we have to have one foot on this world and one on the next if we hope to survive the next millenia. If everyone agreed on everything, the world would be a very boring (but perhaps more peaceful) place.


In regards to war and its glory, I naturally defer to those who have witnessed it first hand, but I understand what you mean. Many of us here play Submarine sims, like Silent Hunter III or IV, we are well aware of what the real men went through, yet we get a thrill of achievement when we finally nail that merchant on full realism (manual targetting) or when we finally evade that escort after six hours of trying to keep as silent as possible. We care little for our little virtual men and their psychological well being because it is a game, a well crafted game but a game at that.
I, in my lifetime of playing games, must have sent hundreds, if not thousands of people to their deaths (and yet I've yet to come across a sim that simulates the letters that you'd have to write out to the family), heck I even developed the nickname of 'Haig' during a certain murderous game of Men of War, but only sometimes do I sit back and think 'I wonder if that dead bunch of pixels bleeding in the snow there had a family?' because if I thought like that all the time...I honestly don't think I could play another game that involves people or creatures being killed.

It's hard not to glorify war, or believe in a form of romanticism of wars gone past, of the 'Knights of the Sky' of WWI, or other various acts of battlefield chivalry. It's hard not to do so because it's a much easier thing to swallow than the cold hard truth that war is about killing more of the other guys than they kill of you. You can wrap it in conventions, dress it up as a righteous cause, but the cold hard ugly truth is still there, and the reason we keep doing it is because it's in our nature, our entire history has been built up on achieving safety for ourselves and those close to us, that's safety as in, safety from violent death, safety from hunger, disease and thirst. So, we see a resource that someone else has, and we want it, that someone else got that resource through the same thinking as we have, so he doesn't want to give it up...and thus war is born.
I would dearly love world peace, I would love the only wars to be fought as those on computer screens...but it isn't going to happen, it would fly in the face of ultimate human nature, and so what we do is we get by how we can. For some that's believing in the glory of war, for others it's a duty, neither of which are wrong, for they are exactly what we make them to be, at the end of the day though, war is war, and it doesn't matter what we believe about it, all we can do is try to keep some sense of humanity attached when interacting with it, as well as staying alive.

Apologies for the wall of text, I tend to go on when I'm tired, thankfully I'll be hitting the sack in just over an hour so you'll have some reprieve from my words.