The next HBO/Spielberg/Hanks WW2 miniseries is a go...

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

I'm done ranting now. Go ahead and tell me i'm wrong.

You should avoid GT if feel the need to defend yourself like that.You can say what ever you want here in GT so long as it follows the Forum rules so why do you not post your true opinion?

If you post something in Gt you should be prepared for the reaction to it from a person of opposing point of view. No one on here is trying to change your opinion that it your own lack of confidence.

Also slightly wall of textish and hard to read.(your post/rant)

August quote comes from a speech by T. Roosevelt generally called "The man in the Arena" he may be thinking of what Sailor Steve was saying to you because Steve has experienced war and you have not.He might also be trying to say ignore Skybird(he is the critic and your in the arena)

I would say post what you really feel don't be neutral about something if you do not really feel that way and don't back down from what you feel because in your last post you did do that to some extent.

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

You should avoid GT if feel the need to defend yourself like that.You can say what ever you want here in GT so long as it follows the Forum rules so why do you not post your true opinion?

If you post something in Gt you should be prepared for the reaction to it from a person of opposing point of view. No one on here is trying to change your opinion that it your own lack of confidence.

Also slightly wall of textish and hard to read.(your post/rant)

August quote comes from a speech by T. Roosevelt generally called "The man in the Arena" he may be thinking of what Sailor Steve was saying to you because Steve has experienced war and you have not.He might also be trying to say ignore Skybird.

I usually avoid GT topics that lead to me getting riled up. I just feel strongly about certain things and our military is one of them. Sailor Steve has experienced war. I highly respect him because of that. He has defended the things that he believed in. He defended my right to guns, an education, speech, press, and all of those other good things. I do not usually post my whole, true opinion because some of my views would offend some people. I try to keep an open mind so that I can learn about things from a different point of view. I am sorry that my rant was hard to read. I typed for a long time and cannot help it. I like you guys, but sometimes....you have a way of pressing my buttons. Anyone who has fought for this country is worthy of deep respect. I don't usually have arguments of this magnitude. (Raptor1 and I had a nice argument about the possibility of a self-sufficient Mermaid civilization that is causing global warming and their Nuclear Fusion Technology and why they don't speed up global warming and invade now. It was fun)


I try to learn things all the time. Before Subsim, I had no respect for the Navy. I was a firm believer in the Army-Navy Rivalry. I saw the real heroes as "Army Men" and the Navy inferior to the army in everything....Then this thing called Silent Hunter 2 came along. Aided by Das Boot and Subsim.com...My opinion was dramatically changed. 2 years ago, if you would've told me that I will love submarines and Naval stuff, I would've slapped my knee and fallen into a dramatic laughing spasm. I would've labeled you crazy. Now, I try to see different points of view while leaving out my own biases and opinions. I can learn so much more about the world this way. I have recently taken a liking to country music. I hated country music since the first time I heard it. Then, I heard Johnny Horton's historical music...then a friend pointed me to Jason Aldean, Eric Church, and Florida Georgia Line. I would've had a similar laughing spasm 6 months ago if you told me that I would like country music. If I keep an open mind, I have found out that I can learn so much and I can grow in my interests. I can now sit and listen to Country music on Pandora and play Silent Hunter. Pre-1900 History may be the next spark that turns into a fire. I have shut out things I deemed "unlikable" but now when you see it in a different way and in a different context....It can be pretty interesting. We have completely derailed this thread from it's original purpose. My "lack of confidence" can be proven by these points. I try to see things from other points of view and leave out my opinion. Sometimes, those two things come together in a gray area. Some of those issues I feel too strongly about. I can't even imagine taking the side of Hitler in his argument against the Jews. The Holocaust was a terrible thing. I couldn't even think about to argue against guns. Guns are a wonderful part of human technology if used in the correct manner.

I normally avoid topics like this that will set me off into an opinionated argumentative rant. Also, I mean no offense to anyone who served in the Navy. I'm just simply outlining my transformation. I would spit up a storm for weeks when the Army lost the Army-Navy game...(They still haven't won for over 10 years... ) Now, I can respect the Navy's fighting men in the same way I do the Army, Marines and Air Force. I have yet to be convinced on the Coast Guard though...You guys are going to have to work on me there...


Subsim is a great place...

[Stealhead]

So you respect those that serve to defend this country but your not convinced on the Coast Guard? That seems a bit illogical seeing as the Coast Guard saves for US citizens each year than any other branch.

Don't worry about thread derailment it is fairly common in GT.There are millions of Americans that have been in war and they all have many differing opinions some that you may or may not agree with.Did you know that Sailor Steve took part in protests against the Vietnam War after he left the Navy?(I am pretty sure he mentioned this once correct me if I am wrong Steve).

[Oberon]

Sounds to me that you are, what we all have been and are, still formulating opinions and views on the world.

You are correct in what you think, and equally you are wrong, as am I, Skybird and everyone else who has posted in this thread since everyone will always have differing viewpoints.

I have a great deal of respect for Skybird, I don't follow his beliefs on Muslims, so we agree to disagree on that, but we share a lot of similar beliefs on humanity and its chaotic ways. He believes in sorting out problems here on Earth first, I believe that we have to have one foot on this world and one on the next if we hope to survive the next millenia. If everyone agreed on everything, the world would be a very boring (but perhaps more peaceful) place.


In regards to war and its glory, I naturally defer to those who have witnessed it first hand, but I understand what you mean. Many of us here play Submarine sims, like Silent Hunter III or IV, we are well aware of what the real men went through, yet we get a thrill of achievement when we finally nail that merchant on full realism (manual targetting) or when we finally evade that escort after six hours of trying to keep as silent as possible. We care little for our little virtual men and their psychological well being because it is a game, a well crafted game but a game at that.
I, in my lifetime of playing games, must have sent hundreds, if not thousands of people to their deaths (and yet I've yet to come across a sim that simulates the letters that you'd have to write out to the family), heck I even developed the nickname of 'Haig' during a certain murderous game of Men of War, but only sometimes do I sit back and think 'I wonder if that dead bunch of pixels bleeding in the snow there had a family?' because if I thought like that all the time...I honestly don't think I could play another game that involves people or creatures being killed.

It's hard not to glorify war, or believe in a form of romanticism of wars gone past, of the 'Knights of the Sky' of WWI, or other various acts of battlefield chivalry. It's hard not to do so because it's a much easier thing to swallow than the cold hard truth that war is about killing more of the other guys than they kill of you. You can wrap it in conventions, dress it up as a righteous cause, but the cold hard ugly truth is still there, and the reason we keep doing it is because it's in our nature, our entire history has been built up on achieving safety for ourselves and those close to us, that's safety as in, safety from violent death, safety from hunger, disease and thirst. So, we see a resource that someone else has, and we want it, that someone else got that resource through the same thinking as we have, so he doesn't want to give it up...and thus war is born.
I would dearly love world peace, I would love the only wars to be fought as those on computer screens...but it isn't going to happen, it would fly in the face of ultimate human nature, and so what we do is we get by how we can. For some that's believing in the glory of war, for others it's a duty, neither of which are wrong, for they are exactly what we make them to be, at the end of the day though, war is war, and it doesn't matter what we believe about it, all we can do is try to keep some sense of humanity attached when interacting with it, as well as staying alive.

Apologies for the wall of text, I tend to go on when I'm tired, thankfully I'll be hitting the sack in just over an hour so you'll have some reprieve from my words.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

I usually avoid GT topics that lead to me getting riled up.

Don't. Always be challenging your beliefs. Read the things that rile you up. Analyze why they rile you up. Re-examine your assumptions. Be open to the fact that what you know to be true may not be true. Enter every discussion with an open mind. You don't need to be wishy-washy in your beliefs, but you do need to be aware of the fact that they may be based on false, incomplete or misleading information.

I constantly try to work on this every day. It's a journey, and it takes work.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

August quote comes from a speech by T. Roosevelt generally called "The man in the Arena" he may be thinking of what Sailor Steve was saying to you because Steve has experienced war and you have not.He might also be trying to say ignore Skybird(he is the critic and your in the arena)

Am I? To me it seems I am much more in care for own side'S fioghting soldiers than quite some others, it also seems to me that I have far lkess illusions about the nature of war and thus are at the same time more unforgiving in detemrination how to fight wars - but also are far more hesitent to get wars started over questionable motives. Some of the military opoerations and wars you have seen since 2001 would not have happened if it would have been up to me. And the fewer wars/operations still being carried out - let'S say they would hjave been fought very very differently.

Does this make me a war monger or a warner of war?

In literature and movies, there is sometimes this cliche brought up, the proud warrior drawing blank his knife, but not needing to fight this time and so cutting his own hand so that it bleeds before putting the blade back into its shed. But actually, the symbolism in this often used idea to me makes sense, if you interpret it this way: do not be easy in pulling your weapon, do not ready yourself for lethal fighting and war if you are not determined, unforgivingly, to indeed shed blood.

In other words: be careful and be not easy about calling for war. But once you draw your blade, than be determined, and not be about theatralic gestures.

The dilletancy of the Bush administraiton about Iraq was the one crime they committed. The other was their easymindedness and carelessness and the intolerable motives by which they unleashed it. That's why I have called Bush a traitor to his own soldiers back then: he abused the naivety of many soldiers who got blinded over their well-meant willingness to serve their country and defend freedom and democracy (oh with this magic spell you can catch the souls of young men so very easily, can't you) and all that. The war was about anything but that.

You hear that, Red-October-who-wants-to-serve?

Be aware of the treacherous master you are willing to give the power to decide over your life. It's precious, you should not accept just any criminal dirtbag to play around with it. You said you "know" about the horror of war, due to the stories told by your grandfathers. You do not know the horror because you read a book about it, or hear somebody talking about it. You know nothing as long as you have not been there and have seen it yourself - and then horror is staring back and deep into yourself. Don't be so eager to meet it. And don't be so foolish to think you are prepared for it. When you return home, you bring some of it back with you, hidden inside of you for the rest of your life. If that is still worth it for you, then at least be certain of the cause for which you make that sacrifice. By not differing between your idealistic desire and the real-political intention of your masters - politicians and corporations - you not only sell your soul and life under value, but you also could easily end up as a helper for the cause of "evil", helping right the opposite of what you hoped you would achieve.

Serving you can in so many functions. btw. As a Autobahn emergency ambulance medic, those guys see terrible things, I can tell you. As a firefighter. Policeman. Doctor. And so many other, less sensationally sounding jobs. Not to mention voluntary engagements and wellfare projects you can pick up. Soldiers are not the better humans, nor are they worse.

What'S more precious to you: serving the needs, or your hunger for glory deriving from your exclusively military definition of "serving"?

And finally, a question for which some will hate me again or attack me over my "cynism" again. You should ask yourself whether the higher cause or community you want to serve - indeed deserves your engagement. That point is often too much taken for granted so that it must not be questioned at all. And I found not questioning it to be very bad advise. Maybe that is the reason why I am such a grim comrade today, but I refuse to cry over the death of illusions I formerly had, for the only solid basis to make decisions, is realism - not wishful thinking, exaggerated hopes or irrational fears.

[Hottentot]

Case in point.

[Red October1984]

Okay Skybird...I can admit to romanticizing war a little bit sometimes. Everyone does. I have heard many stories of the horrors of war but have not personally experienced them and I see what you mean about me being dragged into another "Iraq 2003." That war lasted entirely too long. But how do you effectively fight an insurgency quickly without help from the native government?

My Coast Guard remark was supposed to be a kind of joke. I respect those men and women who defend the oceans and shores of Coastal America.

I don't have much time to post now. I'm in a hurry. I'll post more later!

@Steve, If you dreamed of flying then how did you end up on destroyers? I had to ask.

[Bilge_Rat]

strange... I thought this thread was supposed to be about a new HBO mini-series.....

A few months back, I received the bluray version of "12 O'Clock High". It was made in 1949, but had a surprisingly adult script. They used 12 actual B-17s, crashed one and most of the combat footage in the film is actual combat footage shot during the war. I also found out many of the extras/crew had also served in combat during WW2. A good film to put you in the mood while we wait.

[Crécy]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

strange... I thought this thread was supposed to be about a new HBO mini-series.....

I had to check if I had opened a wrong thread. Twice.

I heard rumors of this 'sequel' a couple of months ago and was under impression that this was supposed to be about the air war in the Pacific Theater. Nevertheless, as long as we get more yummy from mr. Hanks and mr. Spielberg, I'm content.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

@Steve, If you dreamed of flying then how did you end up on destroyers? I had to ask.

I already said: 20/200 in the right eye, 20/275 in the left. I only joined the Navy because I was afraid I would be drafted into the Army, and the Navy wouldn't even let me on a submarine because of my eyesight.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

That war lasted entirely too long. But how do you effectively fight an insurgency quickly without help from the native government?

Wrong question. The real question is why it even got started in 2003. The answer is plans that were made already one decade earlier, and that nothing to do with terror, claims of WMD or anything.

The insurgency had to be expected, and some warning voices even predicted right what then came. If you have no answer to how to defeat it, then you have even one reason more not to start a war.

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Am I

I was only posting my interpretation of Augusts post not that I agreed with it.Though the advice to ignore you was meant to be useful as your discussions can be a little hard for some to handle.

I certainly agree that you do take flak for your views on warfare when others might say the same thing and take none.I would also say that I generally agree with you views on warfare.