The next HBO/Spielberg/Hanks WW2 miniseries is a go...

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Hottentot

Romanticism aside, the "old days" had the definite advantage of having a human element more strongly included. I say it's an advantage, because as long as there is the human somewhere in there, there is the risk of someone dying. And as long as there is the risk of someone dying, someone somewhere has to weigh that risk against the possible benefits gained by winning the war. Hopefully before they start it.

I think history already has proven your views - well, naive. The feudal lords letting their peasant get slaughtered for their own fame and accumulation of land and influence, or willed the massacring of the civilian villagers over wars of desire. Torture. Lacking medical abilities. The effects of medieval weapons on the human body (modern weapons are humane compared to what some of them, or old musketeer bullets, do to flesh and bone). Feudal class letting their tin soldier armies die in Napoleonic squares, sometimes thinking of doing that as the feudal classes' legitimate "hobby".

War never was humane. Never. And it is not today. And where you save the enemy from the grim determination of your will, the buddy beside you, wearing the same colours like you, maybe must pay with his life for your "noblesse" towards the enemy. The enemy is not to be admired - he is to be wiped out. Your admiration you can stick to where the sun does not shine. that is the difference between the reality of war, and romantic daydreaming.

There is nothing noble and honourful and humane in war. And the more this is forgotten, the more war there is and the more suffering there is and the more careless war gets started, waged, tolerated. Especially the past 12 years are a lesson that should remind some of us of that old truth, I think. If it would have been remembered while there still was time, some of the wars we now have would not be there, and the others we could not avoid would have been ended with devastating defeats if not annihilation of the enemy by now. You cannot win war by playing fair and limit yourself.

I condemn all those fools thinking of war holding a humane or noble dimension. War, you do it, or you don't, but if you do it, do it without regret, without scruples and without remorse.

It would be good, however, if you are certain of your motives why you go to war, and that you make sure your standards by which you decide it. can stand the test of what lies ahead.

Fame. Glory. Honour. Noblesse. Truth. Everybody should clean his mouth with soap when thinking about war in terms like this. Kill the enemy and destroy his means, stay alive if you can and care for the guy next to you, beyond this: shut up - that's good enough. Maybe the biggest lie in the history of all mankind: the myth of the "just war". I know only wars of desire, which always are retarded and stupid, and wars of necessity, which cannot - and should not! - be avoided. Flip a coin - it is either the one or the other side. No inbetween, no little bit of both sides.

[Cybermat47]

Wow Skybird, Werner Hartenstein would be incredibly happy with your post.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

Wow Skybird, Werner Hartenstein would be incredibly happy with your post.

Who is that?

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Who is that?

One of the greatest Germans to ever live.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Who is that?

Google was my friend. I forgot the name, but of course know the Laconia incident. Well. Hartenstein thought he alone would change the rules of the game if only he made his intention known. Result of that was that he almost got all his men killed and the boat almost lost. If I would have been on his boat, I would have requested a transfer to another boat, I do not share the popular sentiments about him. In my eyes, he was a fool with good manners, and a risk for his own men, and a commander who made a terrible misjudgement and then tried to ease the pain on his conscience, an effort for which his men almost payed with their lives.

Your men go first.

I am with the American commander here who gave order to sink the sub, red cross and survivors yes or no. The boat was a weapon that shoot again. For the survivors he now saved, future ships with even more lives lost could have been the price. So: sink that sub. Not kind. But the logic of war.

I counter your example with two names that maybe fit better what you wanted to express: John Rabe, and Oskar Schindler. And hundreds and thousands of citizens showing civil courage but whose names history never has recorded. And different to Hartenstein, neither Schindler nor Rabe killed civilians due to misjudgement.

But these were no soldiers.

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Your men go first.

Your first priority is to win the war. Hartenstein had sunken an enemy vessel. Check.

Your second priority is your men's safety. Hartenstein radioed the Allies, informing them of the situation. Check.

Your third priority is the safety of Civilians and captured enemy personnel. Hartenstein gave them food and water. Check.

If the Allies had informed the Ascencion Island base that a U-boat was rescuing survivors, it would have all worked out.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

Your first priority is to win the war.

Strange, when I say that in such totality, I take flak.

Hartenstein had sunken an enemy vessel. Check.

Unaware of its loading: 300+ passengers, and over one thousand Axis prisoners.

Your second priority is your men's safety.

Strange, when i say that it is second priority only, I take flak.

Hartenstein radioed the Allies, informing them of the situation. Check.

He did. idiot. He seriously beliueved the enemy would cooperate and cease the war because Hartenstein did a radio transmission: "Don't shoot, I mean no harm, I will start to fire at your ships again not before I unloaded my passengers." He wanted to ease his conscience which probably was disturbed. Still, what he did was naive.

Your third priority is the safety of Civilians and captured enemy personnel. Hartenstein gave them food and water. Check.

No, along with the second priority it is the maintaining of your combat efficiency and the maximising of your available combat power in times of combat powers. Foreign civilians and prisoners shall not make you compromise your logistic situation and your tactical and strategic situation if you allow that, you would violate your priorities one and two. And that is what Hartenstein did.

Civilians and prisoners are a burden you only shall take into your fomrula when you have the luxury of being in oversupply of goods and items, and your military situation is such that you can afford that generosity. While civilians that do not participate in supporting the enemy for sure must not be seen as a military target and thus can be saved from being targetted, presence of civilians shall not stop you to fire at the enemy if he is there. While prisoners you took must not be targetted, this is onmly as lonmg as there is no risk that they become a threat to your own effort and forces and logistics - by overwhelming the guards and breaking out, forming suddenly a potent threat in your middle or your rear.

If the Allies had informed the Ascencion Island base that a U-boat was rescuing survivors, it would have all worked out.

That's what you want to believe. A German sub is a German sub. It kills ships, and this shipkiller's position now was known. So...

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I take flak.

He would have too, but we were too busy giving it to him over something else. Also, we recognize that he's repeating what he's read, however true it may be, and is still learning. You, on the other hand, spend so much time preaching and beating people over the head with it that everyone has grown tired of hearing it, however true it may be.

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I think history already has proven your views - well, naive. The feudal lords letting their peasant get slaughtered for their own fame and accumulation of land and influence, or willed the massacring of the civilian villagers over wars of desire. Torture. Lacking medical abilities. The effects of medieval weapons on the human body (modern weapons are humane compared to what some of them, or old musketeer bullets, do to flesh and bone). Feudal class letting their tin soldier armies die in Napoleonic squares, sometimes thinking of doing that as the feudal classes' legitimate "hobby".

War never was humane. Never. And it is not today. And where you save the enemy from the grim determination of your will, the buddy beside you, wearing the same colours like you, maybe must pay with his life for your "noblesse" towards the enemy. The enemy is not to be admired - he is to be wiped out. Your admiration you can stick to where the sun does not shine. that is the difference between the reality of war, and romantic daydreaming.

There is nothing noble and honourful and humane in war. And the more this is forgotten, the more war there is and the more suffering there is and the more careless war gets started, waged, tolerated. Especially the past 12 years are a lesson that should remind some of us of that old truth, I think. If it would have been remembered while there still was time, some of the wars we now have would not be there, and the others we could not avoid would have been ended with devastating defeats if not annihilation of the enemy by now. You cannot win war by playing fair and limit yourself.

I condemn all those fools thinking of war holding a humane or noble dimension. War, you do it, or you don't, but if you do it, do it without regret, without scruples and without remorse.

It would be good, however, if you are certain of your motives why you go to war, and that you make sure your standards by which you decide it. can stand the test of what lies ahead.

Fame. Glory. Honour. Noblesse. Truth. Everybody should clean his mouth with soap when thinking about war in terms like this. Kill the enemy and destroy his means, stay alive if you can and care for the guy next to you, beyond this: shut up - that's good enough. Maybe the biggest lie in the history of all mankind: the myth of the "just war". I know only wars of desire, which always are retarded and stupid, and wars of necessity, which cannot - and should not! - be avoided. Flip a coin - it is either the one or the other side. No inbetween, no little bit of both sides.

I'm going to say this good and clear. I do not admire the enemy. I do not see fame and glory in going to war. I highly respect those that do go to war. I have a good amount of family members in the military. I even have military family members in Germany. I respect those who defend my home. Let's face it. World Peace is impossible. War is inevitable. If you want to cut me down for wanting to defend my fellow citizens so that they can sleep safe and sound at night and see their kids off to school the next day, go ahead. If you want to shoot down my argument and tell me that I love war and I am wrong, go ahead.

I will not care. I will not be bothered by this. I want to protect freedom and what I believe is good. I want to give back to my country. I want to see to it that the Average Joe has the right to walk down the street without fear of being arrested/killed/deported/etc...


Try all you want, but I am me. You cannot change that.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

I do not see fame and glory in going to war.

But that's exactly how you sound as you say it.

Try all you want, but I am me. You cannot change that.

That's fine. What you can't understand yet is that you do see war as a glorious thing. We all do when we're young. And it is that very attitude that helps wars come about. Yes, you should be prepared to defend what you believe in. You should also pray that you never have to. If you do you'll end up like Sherman. And you may never recover.

[August]

Dunno why but this TR quote seems appropriate here:

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

But that's exactly how you sound as you say it.


That's fine. What you can't understand yet is that you do see war as a glorious thing. We all do when we're young. And it is that very attitude that helps wars come about. Yes, you should be prepared to defend what you believe in. You should also pray that you never have to. If you do you'll end up like Sherman. And you may never recover.

I don't mean to make it sound that way. I understand that war is a horrible, horrible, horrible thing to go through. I don't want to go to war, but I will if my country needs me. All I want to do is fly in the military. I want to do something I love while protecting what I love. Yes, I am young. I have uncles with PTSD. I know the horrors of war. The discovery channel did a documentary about my uncle's unit; 2nd Bn, 27th Infantry, or The Wolfhounds. It's called God's Soldier. It's on youtube. My uncle served as a doctor for one of the most dangerous postings in Northern Iraq. He lost buddies left and right. He told me about a period of time where they had "Ramp Ceremonies" almost every day. People were dropping like flies. There was a fellow from actually within 50 miles of where I live who was in that unit. He was shot through the neck on guard duty and my uncle was the one to work on him....There is now a stretch of road outside of Cape Girardeau, Missouri with his name on it. It's a sad thing. I don't want to be a stretch of road or a white gravestone but I am prepared to take the risk. I don't think war is glorious and a good thing. Yes, there are certain things that I find interesting every once in a while. I like learning about Allied operations in the Pacific. I think it can be interesting sometimes to learn about the terribly horrible things that our guys had to live through. I don't glorify it. That's simply the way it happened. I once heard that the Japanese would strap a guy to the ground and plant bamboo underneath him so that the bamboo would grow into the man and impale him slowly. I found that odd. I wanted to know more. Yes, it was interesting at the time but I do not glorify dying this way. I don't glorify anything about it. Heck, I'm not even completely sure it was the Japanese. It might've been the Vietcong. I don't remember the full story. I don't even know if that story is completely true. It's true that I respect the men who died in those horrible ways. Anyone who can fight for their country deserves respect. No matter how much I do not like that country, those people are stepping up (Knowing that they might not come back) to defend what they think is right. Unless it's service by requirement, I'm sure a lot of those guys don't want to fight. I might be going back on things I've said before. I try to keep a neutral opinion online. I don't want to drift too far to my personal opinion (im sure you would really hate me then) because I'm very conservative and I don't want to offend anyone with certain comments that would be okay in general talking around Southern Missouri. Some people around here can be very racist. Some are extremely against Muslims. I, personally, don't think that being racist against Obama will fix our problem. I don't think that "nuking every last Hajji out there" will fix the Middle East. It won't solve any problems to do that kind of stuff. I try to keep neutral and open minded. When it comes to the defense of my country, I am very strongly opinionated in one direction. Here on Subsim, the European Liberals like to cut down people like me. It is what it is. There are always people out there willing to accuse me of "Glorifying war" and cutting down every statement I make. I'm simply trying to stay neutral without exposing some of my more extreme opinions. I could go on all day about how I think this country is going in the wrong direction. I might not be able to justify some of it with facts, but it is an OPINION! Opinions are not always completely based on fact. They teach you that in Elementary English Class. It can be influenced by where you are from, what your family thinks/does, and what your religion says/does. I'm Catholic and I think Abortion is a terrible thing, but I guarantee there are some Pro-Choice people on here somewhere to cut down my argument with what they think is right. I think that there is something seriously wrong with our handling of illegal immigration. We are fighting a war here in America and nobody cares. Why? Because Mitt Romney was right when he said that 47% of America won't get up and get a job.

I know that you will pick apart this post sentence by sentence and give me a grilling about how I'm wrong. Opinions don't always have to be correct. Hitler had an opinion about how the Jews were bad. He backed it up with a few facts and some creative speeches. People believed him. I just today watched a PBS documentary about Antisemitism in the US during World War 2. Jews are not the cause of all of Germany's problems. The Jews are not terrible people. Same thing with current Muslim conflicts. There will be some bad apples in the bunch. Some groups are more prone to bad apples than others but Muslims can be a peaceful people.


I think the quote that August posted was great. Critics can say and do what they want. The man in the arena is trying. The Critics can talk about how he's doing it wrong or he believes in the wrong things all they want. The man in the arena won't care. He is there because he wants to be there. I have a quote to add here too...

"Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent"

I'm not sure who said that, but it's on a poster that ive seen many times. You guys can try and try, but you can't change the way I feel without my consent. I can give in to do what the Critic wants or I can have faith in my task that I volunteered for. If I want to fly, I will fly. You can't change the way i live my life because you accuse me of glorifying something that is unpopular among Europeans. I live in Hillbilly Country. Of course war is going to be supported by us Rednecks. There is no changing that. Hillbilly Country will be Hillbilly Country for a long time. There are people around here willing to fight in a Civil War to keep our gun rights. There is a great difference of opinion around here on Subsim. You will call us "silly ol' hics that need to go back to their shack and rethink this." Guns are important to the people around here. We do not commit mass shootings. We hunt. We target shoot. We defend our homes. If our right to defend ourselves was taken away, most of the people around here would fight up a storm. I know people predicting what's going to happen. Some are saying that gun control will pass, Civil War 2 will break out, and we will be fighting the United Nations. Some say that it won't pass and we'll be fine.

It's all a big mess and everyone has their own opinion. A lady once told me that "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion" every time I mentioned Politics. She was right. Everyone can think how they want to.

I'm done ranting now. Go ahead and tell me i'm wrong.

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by Red October1984

I'm done ranting now. Go ahead and tell me i'm wrong.

You should avoid GT if feel the need to defend yourself like that.You can say what ever you want here in GT so long as it follows the Forum rules so why do you not post your true opinion?

If you post something in Gt you should be prepared for the reaction to it from a person of opposing point of view. No one on here is trying to change your opinion that it your own lack of confidence.

Also slightly wall of textish and hard to read.(your post/rant)

August quote comes from a speech by T. Roosevelt generally called "The man in the Arena" he may be thinking of what Sailor Steve was saying to you because Steve has experienced war and you have not.He might also be trying to say ignore Skybird(he is the critic and your in the arena)

I would say post what you really feel don't be neutral about something if you do not really feel that way and don't back down from what you feel because in your last post you did do that to some extent.

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

You should avoid GT if feel the need to defend yourself like that.You can say what ever you want here in GT so long as it follows the Forum rules so why do you not post your true opinion?

If you post something in Gt you should be prepared for the reaction to it from a person of opposing point of view. No one on here is trying to change your opinion that it your own lack of confidence.

Also slightly wall of textish and hard to read.(your post/rant)

August quote comes from a speech by T. Roosevelt generally called "The man in the Arena" he may be thinking of what Sailor Steve was saying to you because Steve has experienced war and you have not.He might also be trying to say ignore Skybird.

I usually avoid GT topics that lead to me getting riled up. I just feel strongly about certain things and our military is one of them. Sailor Steve has experienced war. I highly respect him because of that. He has defended the things that he believed in. He defended my right to guns, an education, speech, press, and all of those other good things. I do not usually post my whole, true opinion because some of my views would offend some people. I try to keep an open mind so that I can learn about things from a different point of view. I am sorry that my rant was hard to read. I typed for a long time and cannot help it. I like you guys, but sometimes....you have a way of pressing my buttons. Anyone who has fought for this country is worthy of deep respect. I don't usually have arguments of this magnitude. (Raptor1 and I had a nice argument about the possibility of a self-sufficient Mermaid civilization that is causing global warming and their Nuclear Fusion Technology and why they don't speed up global warming and invade now. It was fun)


I try to learn things all the time. Before Subsim, I had no respect for the Navy. I was a firm believer in the Army-Navy Rivalry. I saw the real heroes as "Army Men" and the Navy inferior to the army in everything....Then this thing called Silent Hunter 2 came along. Aided by Das Boot and Subsim.com...My opinion was dramatically changed. 2 years ago, if you would've told me that I will love submarines and Naval stuff, I would've slapped my knee and fallen into a dramatic laughing spasm. I would've labeled you crazy. Now, I try to see different points of view while leaving out my own biases and opinions. I can learn so much more about the world this way. I have recently taken a liking to country music. I hated country music since the first time I heard it. Then, I heard Johnny Horton's historical music...then a friend pointed me to Jason Aldean, Eric Church, and Florida Georgia Line. I would've had a similar laughing spasm 6 months ago if you told me that I would like country music. If I keep an open mind, I have found out that I can learn so much and I can grow in my interests. I can now sit and listen to Country music on Pandora and play Silent Hunter. Pre-1900 History may be the next spark that turns into a fire. I have shut out things I deemed "unlikable" but now when you see it in a different way and in a different context....It can be pretty interesting. We have completely derailed this thread from it's original purpose. My "lack of confidence" can be proven by these points. I try to see things from other points of view and leave out my opinion. Sometimes, those two things come together in a gray area. Some of those issues I feel too strongly about. I can't even imagine taking the side of Hitler in his argument against the Jews. The Holocaust was a terrible thing. I couldn't even think about to argue against guns. Guns are a wonderful part of human technology if used in the correct manner.

I normally avoid topics like this that will set me off into an opinionated argumentative rant. Also, I mean no offense to anyone who served in the Navy. I'm just simply outlining my transformation. I would spit up a storm for weeks when the Army lost the Army-Navy game...(They still haven't won for over 10 years... ) Now, I can respect the Navy's fighting men in the same way I do the Army, Marines and Air Force. I have yet to be convinced on the Coast Guard though...You guys are going to have to work on me there...


Subsim is a great place...

[Stealhead]

So you respect those that serve to defend this country but your not convinced on the Coast Guard? That seems a bit illogical seeing as the Coast Guard saves for US citizens each year than any other branch.

Don't worry about thread derailment it is fairly common in GT.There are millions of Americans that have been in war and they all have many differing opinions some that you may or may not agree with.Did you know that Sailor Steve took part in protests against the Vietnam War after he left the Navy?(I am pretty sure he mentioned this once correct me if I am wrong Steve).