[TEC] Modding Knowledge Database

[urfisch]

one thing comes to me quite often in the last month. i see some people giving us great improvments and i see many, who have passion for modding, but limited skills - this causes a very slow overall progress and includes the danger of "knowledge loss" if one of these comrades is leaving our ship.

so, what to do? no, not reading books or crawl through tons of forum topics...many, including me, are not willed or simply do not have the time to search hours for a solution, someone else already discovered.



we need definitely knowledge to be spread here! in a kind of structured database with tutorials.



there are just a few who know quite much about the code and how to change things deeper in game (beside all the good ones, who left the boat with sh5 beeing released) but there are also many who are willed to mod and do not have the knowlegde. this is a big handicap for the success in modding here.

the more people have the skills, the more this game is beeing pushed forward!

[andycaccia]

I agree!

It seems a really good idea..

[TheDarkWraith]

I see the major handicap as S3D. What you all called a godsend is actually your biggest handicap. With S3D you all didn't have to know the file system or the whys and hows of how it all worked in SH3/4. Those that actually took the time to learn the file system and the whys and hows of how it all worked in SH3/4 days have less trouble modding SH5 (notice I didn't say no trouble but less trouble).
Knowledge is still the best tool out there and no tool or application will give you that. Knowledge is earned by reading/experimenting/trial-and-error and those of you hooked on S3D or any other tool are way behind in the knowledge game.

So what to do? First off the hex editor has to be your tool of choice and you need to love it. Start opening SH3/4/5 files with hex editor and 'read' them. Learn the whys and hows of the files/file system.

As far as RE goes if you're not familiar with it you have a VERY steep learning curve. I've been into programming and RE for over 24 years. I remember the days when I wrote apps in assembler and DOS's Debug was your debug tool. Then came the Basic programming language, QuickBasic, and then C became more popular. Then C++ came out and everyone scrambled to learn that programming language. Point is you have to be familiar with tons of information that progressed from the late '70s up to now to be proficient in RE. If you weren't on that bandwagon then you have LOTS of reading to do and a VERY steep learning curve.

Those that are familiar with this cannot simply just write tutorials for those who are not familiar with it. It will make no sense to you all. You need solid foundations in assembler, for one, to have any chance of learning anything from someone familiar in these areas. Knowledge of the hardware level of a computer (interrupt controller, CPU registers, the CPU itself, etc.) helps solidify knowledge learned in assembler.

My library spans 20' X 9' and is filled with books on computer hardware, assembler, interrupts, RE, programming languages, DOS, DirectX....basically anything dealing with computers. This is my reference dept whenever I need to go back and review something. It continues to grow everyday as the pace of innovation of computers/programming languages/RE seems to grow faster and faster with every month that goes by. I have a pile of books that continues to grow that I haven't read yet on these subjects because I can't keep up with the pace of innovation

While it may seem daunting to the beginner it really isn't. You just need to go slowly and learn one thing at a time. Start with computer hardware and learn about what's inside the CPU and how/why it works, then look at the hardware on a motherboard and how/why it works and how it interfaces with the CPU, then learn assembler. Do not try to learn anything else until you are VERY familiar with assembler. Next learn a popular debugger like Olly Debug. Once you are proficient with it then learn some programming languages (like C and C++). That will give you a very solid foundation from which to expand on (though it will probably take you years to get there)

[urfisch]

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

I see the major handicap as S3D. What you all called a godsend is actually your biggest handicap. With S3D you all didn't have to know the file system or the whys and hows of how it all worked in SH3/4. Those that actually took the time to learn the file system and the whys and hows of how it all worked in SH3/4 days have less trouble modding SH5 (notice I didn't say no trouble but less trouble).
Knowledge is still the best tool out there and no tool or application will give you that. Knowledge is earned by reading/experimenting/trial-and-error and those of you hooked on S3D or any other tool are way behind in the knowledge game.

So what to do? First off the hex editor has to be your tool of choice and you need to love it. Start opening SH3/4/5 files with hex editor and 'read' them. Learn the whys and hows of the files/file system.

As far as RE goes if you're not familiar with it you have a VERY steep learning curve. I've been into programming and RE for over 24 years. I remember the days when I wrote apps in assembler and DOS's Debug was your debug tool. Then came the Basic programming language, QuickBasic, and then C became more popular. Then C++ came out and everyone scrambled to learn that programming language. Point is you have to be familiar with tons of information that progressed from the late '70s up to now to be proficient in RE. If you weren't on that bandwagon then you have LOTS of reading to do and a VERY steep learning curve.

Those that are familiar with this cannot simply just write tutorials for those who are not familiar with it. It will make no sense to you all. You need solid foundations in assembler, for one, to have any chance of learning anything from someone familiar in these areas. Knowledge of the hardware level of a computer (interrupt controller, CPU registers, the CPU itself, etc.) helps solidify knowledge learned in assembler.

My library spans 20' X 9' and is filled with books on computer hardware, assembler, interrupts, RE, programming languages, DOS, DirectX....basically anything dealing with computers. This is my reference dept whenever I need to go back and review something. It continues to grow everyday as the pace of innovation of computers/programming languages/RE seems to grow faster and faster with every month that goes by. I have a pile of books that continues to grow that I haven't read yet on these subjects because I can't keep up with the pace of innovation

While it may seem daunting to the beginner it really isn't. You just need to go slowly and learn one thing at a time. Start with computer hardware and learn about what's inside the CPU and how/why it works, then look at the hardware on a motherboard and how/why it works and how it interfaces with the CPU, then learn assembler. Do not try to learn anything else until you are VERY familiar with assembler. Next learn a popular debugger like Olly Debug. Once you are proficient with it then learn some programming languages (like C and C++). That will give you a very solid foundation from which to expand on (though it will probably take you years to get there)

i know, you are passioned in that: coding. we all see this and we all love it. but you cant expect the normal modders here to get the knowledge you have, just to change some things in a game.



i got your point, tdw. but modding cases always need some special knowledge, not that overall coding skills.

for example: if you want to mod the textures, you must need to know, where are they located, what format is used (what color depth), how does an alphachannel work and what is a bump map? but you do not need any knowledge of coded file structures. so if we would have a knowledge database, where every modder shares his knowledge and experiences, an in texture modding interested guy would search for the mentioned knowledge. if one wants to change fundamental things of coded files, he needs to know what variables are created and used, what memory is addressed...simply said: what is creating the content i want to change and how do i get there.

by the way: i know the potential of a hex editor. first used one in "system shock" in 1995 to get different items but to "learn" the file structure of todays games, just to change something small in game is a huge amount of work. you need to learn the things you said. and this takes a lot of time.

so its easier to set up a database, where all skills and experiences are collected. a wiki of sh5 modding. we all dont need to start from zero, if there is already knowledge, that could be spread!!!

[andycaccia]

Originally Posted by urfisch

i know, you are passioned in that: coding. we all see this and we all love it. but you cant expect the normal modders here to get the knowledge you have, just to change some things in a game.



i got your point, tdw. but modding cases always need some special knowledge, not that overall coding skills.

for example: if you want to mod the textures, you must need to know, where are they located, what format is used (what color depth), how does an alphachannel work and what is a bump map? but you do not need any knowledge of coded file structures. so if we would have a knowledge database, where every modder shares his knowledge and experiences, an in texture modding interested guy would search for the mentioned knowledge. if one wants to change fundamental things of coded files, he needs to know what variables are created and used, what memory is addressed...simply said: what is creating the content i want to change and how do i get there.

by the way: i know the potential of a hex editor. first used one in "system shock" in 1995 to get different items but to "learn" the file structure of todays games, just to change something small in game is a huge amount of work. you need to learn the things you said. and this takes a lot of time.

so its easier to set up a database, where all skills and experiences are collected. a wiki of sh5 modding. we all dont need to start from zero, if there is already knowledge, that could be spread!!!

Good point.
Quick modding usually does not require a deep knowledge of coding. But a database with informations would really help newcomers and skilled modders alike.

[Obelix]

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

So what to do? First off the hex editor has to be your tool of choice and you need to love it. Start opening SH3/4/5 files with hex editor and 'read' them. Learn the whys and hows of the files/file system.

I have long realized that a hex editor - the most powerful tool for the programmer. But so far my attempts to understand the hex-code fail - for me hex-code looks like "Chinese charter." I understand his main mistake - opening the hex-code I'm trying to find meaningful words in it that would lead me to the goal. And finally I understand this error when I find the right words meaningful and saw that it lead to nowhere and absolutely nothing. I understand how to write programs - they are written in understandable language for humans, but incomprehensible to the computer, he sees them as just information, but not as a code to be executed. A compiler translates the program text in the code that a computer understands, but then it becomes quite clear the man who has not seen the source language program. Although once again - this person came up with machine code and understand it should not be working. So now I realize how much I've missed, especially now when so closely involved with computers at home and at work. I quickly learned the basics of working with a computer, but the ground has been lost, and attempts to understand the programming is sometimes called "jamming" the brain. Programming I have long wondered. I've always loved to read books, but reading books on programming with no computer at hand is the same as that learning to drive a car is not behind the wheel.
With all these complexities, I caught myself thinking that I'm totally not want to play (last time I tried to go campaign in SH5 late last year), I like that a change in the game, look for solutions to problems, to make a modest contribution to game. Instead set the fashion and ready to enjoy the game once I open the game file and try to find the cause undesired operation. My friends long wondered, "Why do you want a game that you want so long and hard to bring to mind?". At first I agreed with them, even the appointed time, when I throw SH5 and dive into the campaign and SH4 SH3 - I wanted to fully play. But now, more than six months I have little interest in gaming! I am interested in improving the game! And let me very little success in this business, but to me it's beginning to bring more satisfaction than the gameplay.

But one thing my swapped preferences, and another thing - the main objective. Purpose - to improve specifically SH5. So I was inclined to support urfisch in his desire to create a knowledge base, the more clear that his desire is justified.

[tonschk]

Originally Posted by Obelix

I am interested in improving the game! And let me very little success in this business, but to me it's beginning to bring more satisfaction than the gameplay.

But one thing my swapped preferences, and another thing - the main objective. Purpose - to improve specifically SH5. So I was inclined to support urfisch in his desire to create a knowledge base, the more clear that his desire is justified.

I agree with you Obelix

[skwasjer]

Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith

I see the major handicap as S3D. What you all called a godsend is actually your biggest handicap. With S3D you all didn't have to know the file system or the whys and hows of how it all worked in SH3/4. Those that actually took the time to learn the file system and the whys and hows of how it all worked in SH3/4 days have less trouble modding SH5 (notice I didn't say no trouble but less trouble).
Knowledge is still the best tool out there and no tool or application will give you that.

I really don't care, but still this is utter horse****...

[TheDarkWraith]

Originally Posted by skwasjer

I really don't care, but still this is utter horse****...

Everyone is entitled to their opinion

[Foxhound]

that's all very thoughtful. any of you guys. can you tell me about an editor with which i can open SH3 coded files? i guess they are too many, how about EnvSim.act to start with? is this topic covered in any other thread?

[Ducimus]

Thanks for bumping this thread foxhound. The pissing match contained herein is reminiscent of the egocentricty that was the cause of the SH3 modding wars, and is one reason why I'll never get involved here as a modder.

[Foxhound]

you got to be joking! you have been modding with a HEX editor? i mean, you have been opening SH3 code files in something like Textpad and peering through 0xA3 0x12 0xFF 0xFE and tried to make sense of it? that's not true. there should be a nice compiler for this (they have it at UbiSOft i am sure). you know, they could have coded the .cfg files too so that nothing would have been comprehensible. this way we'd have never started modding in the first place. i am sure they are laughing though.