Are you you rooting for failure for SH5?

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by JScones

"Happier" is a feeling too Neal...who's going to be happier? You? Me? Ubisoft? Will my PC turn "happier" into a simulation?

You've reinforced the point I was making.

Yeah, and I forgot regret, too.

[Brag]

Telling us this is the end if we don't buy is pure scare tactics. Give us a product we want and we will buy. Try to ram DRM/OSP down our throats is not good business. All UBi needs to do, is remove DRM. So far, Ubi has shown an arrogant and insulting attitude towards its clients. That is a bad business practice.

You can't sell something your client doesn't want. I don't buy clothing with holes nor shoes requiring internet connection.

SHV is not a communications device. So don't hobble it with crap.

Moo

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Brag

Telling us this is the end if we don't buy is pure scare tactics. Give us a product we want and we will buy. Try to ram DRM/OSP down our throats is not good business. All UBi needs to do, is remove DRM. So far, Ubi has shown an arrogant and insulting attitude towards its clients. That is a bad business practice.

You can't sell something your client doesn't want. I don't buy clothing with holes nor shoes requiring internet connection.

SHV is not a communications device. So don't hobble it with crap.

Moo

Fine, don't buy it, we have to hear this every day? This is the SH5 forum, not the "I'm not buying SH5 forum."

[HundertzehnGustav]

My gut tells me if they would've been given more time and left alone to build this game.

It might have been a U-Boat Sim that would have made History in the Sim gameing world.

Hear Hear!!

[TarJak]

Originally Posted by Ships-R-Us

I stated my belief based on true marketing statistics, and hearsay, and opinion. It is now time for you to go have whatever you drink early morning down under.

Clearly you are incapable of forming a coherent argument backed with any proof of your claims and therefore I can only discount your original accusation as meaningless.

As to the time of day you may want to consult a clock then take a look at a time zone chart. It was late afternoon when I posted my original reply so I think I'll go and have a beer instead of a cuppa thanks.

On topic; I do care whether there will be sub sims made in future. I don't care who makes them as long as they are well made. If there is no SH6 then so be it.

That said I won't slavishly buy a game from a publisher just because they make a product line that I'm interested in. I will always excersise my right as a consumer to tell them to shove their product if it contains something I don't like enough to do so.

When I first bought SH1 years ago I had no concept that there may be a SH2 3, 4 or 5. I didn't buy SH4 and unless OSP is removed won't buy 5 until the ecomonics of the bargain bin make it what I consider worth my while submitting to the leash.

I know piracy is a major problem for the PC gaming industry, as it is for the software and recording industry, however if it eventually kills PC gaming off then the pirates will concentrate on console games maybe even killing that market as well; which by the by, they have already moved into.

I don't subscribe to the theory though that the best defense is to penalise honest customers without putting major effort into bringing the major culprits to justice.

Ultimately because this is business, however the cost of prevention and prosecution of the guilty will always be tempered by the cost of that prevention and prosecution. You almost always get what you pay for.

[MasterCaine]

Originally Posted by JScones

You know, I really tire of the guilt trip that if I don't buy the game the series will die and it will all be my fault, so I must buy it no matter how cr@p it is because the devs love me and I must be grateful and so on.

That's pure BS.

If Ubisoft put out a good game, it would sell itself. If it's cr@p, then people won't buy it. Simple supply and demand.

If the series dies it's not the fault of the consumers, it is fairly and squarely the fault of the developer (yes, I said it!) and the publisher, for failing to provide what the majority of consumers wanted.

To that end, I don't want SH5 to fail, but if it does, I will not carry any guilt. Indeed, I will see it as hopefully a fresh beginning in the subsim genre. It may take a few years, but I have no doubt that an indie dev house will take up the challenge.

In other words, I have as much loyalty to Ubisoft as they have to me...no more...no less...

Wow, JScones. Very well stated. It's insane that so many SH fan boys here are blaming us (who are saying 'no more') for Ubisoft's slow, imminent death. Ubisoft dug their own grave by continually releasing buggy, half-finished games, and then never fully finishing or patching them later. And now they are adding this DRM crap to most of their games. I cannot believe how many people here have said that they will continue to support Ubisoft with their money, regardless of how often Ubisoft bends them over and rams them.

Ubisoft is about to learn that they screwed over their customers just once too many times. The writing is on the wall for them.

[Iron Budokan]

Make a good game and I'll buy it. Period.

Yeah. Sometimes life really is that simple.

[BarjackU977]

TarJak, small addition to your post:
piracy exist even in the world of consoles.
Back to PC, even with MMO games like WoW, piracy exists, although a big part of the game is on servers only.
Steam does not prevent piracy either.

I think that we customers understand that publishers have to put "enough DRM" to deter the easy forms of pirating, but they they should avoid impacting genuine customers with annoyances at the same time. But what does that actually mean? The right balance isn't the same for everyone.
DRM acceptance comes down to our likes, dislikes, our expectations, our principles, our perception of the rights/freedom of customers, effects on our gaming experience.

Hence our "debates" here.

Problem is that we will probably never have a good idea of the general opinion on this DRM. Even sale figures can't be considered as a representation of the acceptance of the new DRM.

[609_Avatar]

Originally Posted by BarjackU977

It's true that money is needed to assure a future to the game.

Yet, is that a reason to give money, whatever Ubi comes up with? I don't think so.

I don't believe it's a lack of "tolerance" from me. I purchased SH2, SH3, SH4 + its expansion as from day 1. But I don't find it healthy to always buy, whatever happens, just for the hope of more hypothetical games of quality, and of the genre you want (simulation? More casual? etc) in the future. That would be sending a wrong message, I think.

Exactly the way I feel. Though I also bought SH1 and had all the Aces series, I'm hardly as hard core as many of you are here, flight sims are my true passion. I resisted posting in this thread initially as the subject was just kind of silly to me, no offense to the original poster intended, because I haven't seen anyone say they would want the game itself to fail. It's almost hypocritical for those that imply it's our fault, meaning those that chose to not buy because of the chosen form of DRM UBI has decided to start using, and the game fails. Some feel we therefore should buy it hoping that we can save the downfall of the series... I've held this belief, to some extent, in the past and have bought games purely for the purpose of "trying to support the developer" but the number of people that actually do this are very few and in terms of the grand scheme of things, read bottom line of how profitable a game is for the publisher and whether they feel it's worth continuing with that series/genre, really doesn't amount to a hill of beans. Unfortunately I don't have a source for this but did read this years ago from a developer himself that was "in the know" and it made me rethink that belief I held. So I no longer do this- buy games simply for the purpose of supporting the developer/genre.

I tried being optimistic about some companies "seeing the light" in terms of my perception of their error in their chosen DRM- I bought RoF during a weak moment and it appears they are getting rid of their form of DRM for single player, so it may have worked in that instance but I finally decided to draw my own line in the sand here with UBI and admit to myself that gaming, despite all the hours I have put into it, is really not worth me going against something I state as my belief and principle.

So I definitely don't want SHV to fail or the series to end but I will not support UBI's decision with this form of DRM. If it does fail/end it is definitely not my (or others of like mind) fault but UBI's, plain and simple. They made their choice and I made mine. Cause and effect here.

I guess those that feel we should buy it to support the series/developer have just as much merit as those that feel people who buy the game are supporting UBI and their chosen form of DRM. Unfortunately, the former, from what a developer has publicly stated, just isn't true by measuring the profit that can be made through such actions.

Personaly, I couldn't give a flying monkey if there is a SH6 or not. I care even less if there is a UbiSoft or not. Both are speculative futures and if there's one thing i've learnt in life its's NO ONE has a monopoly on the future.

So i work with the here and now.....and here and now SHV will be released with DRM/OSP/KACK....so i wont buy as this is an unecessary intrusion into my life. There is no justifiable reason why i should be online to play an OFFLINE game as I am not a pirate.

If UbiSoft feel SH4 sales were low they should take a look at the quality of their work rather than looking for "pirates under the bed". But they seem to be in complete denial. They seem to assume that we, the consumer, will take it up the jakarta regardless of what they release.

I find the whole DRM/OSP/KACK issue insulting to be frank. So I care nothing for the future of the company or the SH series.

Now on the matter of Sub Sims..... I see absolutely no reason why a group of dedicated enthusiasts can't get together and create a bloody good sub sim. Quality sells....period.

As a great man once said..."The only thing you have to fear is fear itself!"

If you buy SHV because you fear the series will be binned if you don't then you really have to take a long look at your philosphy to life....and I can assure you there are "happier" ones out there.

Cheers, UG

[tater]

I hate being put in the position of paying Ubi "protection money."

That's the suggestion:

"You'll pays for this here game, and youse'll like it, or the subsim gets it, see?"

The proper relationship is that we, the customer, are to be wooed.

I was willing to buy SH5 even though I'd never play it to "support a decent subsim engine," but there are limits to the abuse I'll take from Ubi for the privilege of giving them what to me is nothing but a charitable contribution (and they're not even 501c3, so I can't have the accountant write it off). OSP is past that limit if I EVER know it's there by virtue of it delaying me, etc.

Before the DRM stuff, I'd have wanted it to be a success. WITH the DRM stuff, a success will only embolden Ubi, all the OSP titles need to fail since the only voice they'll listen to is sales figures. Of course the rocket scientist who thought of OSP will claim all the failures were bad games, not the OSP. Not my problem, though.

[Ragtag]

Originally Posted by tater

I hate being put in the position of paying Ubi "protection money."

That's the suggestion:

"You'll pays for this here game, and youse'll like it, or the subsim gets it, see?"

The proper relationship is that we, the customer, are to be wooed.

I was willing to buy SH5 even though I'd never play it to "support a decent subsim engine," but there are limits to the abuse I'll take from Ubi for the privilege of giving them what to me is nothing but a charitable contribution (and they're not even 501c3, so I can't have the accountant write it off). OSP is past that limit if I EVER know it's there by virtue of it delaying me, etc.

Before the DRM stuff, I'd have wanted it to be a success. WITH the DRM stuff, a success will only embolden Ubi, all the OSP titles need to fail since the only voice they'll listen to is sales figures. Of course the rocket scientist who thought of OSP will claim all the failures were bad games, not the OSP. Not my problem, though.

Totally agree. The sales is in the hands of Ubisoft. No one else. They are free to remove the OSP if they want to. And yes, money talks.

[Bilge_Rat]

Let's look at this another way, when SH4 was released, it was savaged on this forum as buggy, incomplete and worse.."arcadish"..

I reinstalled SH4 1.5 a few weeks back and have been playing it mostly stock and you know what, it is a very decent sim, even out of the box. Everything works as it should, the TDC works as it does on a real fleet boat and is a joy to use. The AI reacts to you as you would expect. As a sub skipper, you have to use real world tactics to stalk a convoy, get a kill and get out with your skin.

Now I know players will say, yes but "the battery drains in x when it should be y in real life", "you can only dive to x when it should be y in RL", "it takes x torps to sink 1943A Target MARU when it should be y", etc., etc., etc., etc.,....No doubt that is true, but that is why we have dedicated modders to fix these little issues.

Would your life have been better if Ubisoft had said after SH3: "These Subnuts are more trouble than they are worth, lets scrap this boat thingy and concentrate on Assassin's Creed 3: Neal's Revenge instead"....

[Sailor Steve]

Aw, man, only being able to post once a day is killing me! I get here this morning and I find this thread has picked up three new pages!

So, lots of stuff to do:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

but wait till you see SH6. It will be 100% unfinished

Don't you mean "wait till you don't see SH6?

Originally Posted by Ships-R-Us

Only someone with no internet capability has a justified arguement against DRM. The others are whining without cause, which has led me to believe "pirate" in a lot of instances, not all, as there are more dishonest players than not. My arguement was reasonabally based.

That's like saying "Only someone with something to hide needs to fear this new law". The only justified argument against DRM is that it's invasive, intrusive, abusive, controlling, and just plain wrong.

I would still buy the game, no matter what I thought was wrong with it, because SH4, SH3, SH2 and even SH1 had their problems, but were still good games (well, not SH2), but this takes the cake, crosses the line and is the last straw for me. If I had everything I wanted and money to spare I still would not buy a game I couldn't play by myself when, where and how I wanted.

Sorry to take off on the 'DRM' thing again, but it was a singular response to the above argument. And no, that was not reasonably based.

Originally Posted by tater

I hate being put in the position of paying Ubi "protection money."

That's the suggestion:

"You'll pays for this here game, and youse'll like it, or the subsim gets it, see?"

I swear I could actually hear Edward G. Robinson saying that!

[The Enigma]

Originally Posted by Heretic

Are you you rooting for failure for SH5

Nope, I'm not.
I'm hoping that the whole OSP/DRM will fail.

Also, I'm not concerned for the future of the SH series.
History has proven that there is an ongoing market for subsim games.

Also, we aren't boycotting SH5.
We are boycotting UBI's implemented OSP/DRM.

Like us, many other gamers are upset about the new UBI policy.
They also say that they will not buy UBI games until DRM/OSP is dropped.
There is a war going on not a (subsim)battle.

About the so far displayed quality of SH5:
Yes, there are great things added.
Yes there are errors to be seen (smaller and big ones)
Yes there are things made different (some I like some I dislike)

But I think we loose track on reality here.
There is just a given amount of time to write the code for a game.
And it's UBI who's the captain of the developers crew.
They decide what gets in and what's left out.

Remember the early days of a subsim game.
There weren't these great graphics or detailed views.
Did we then enjoy playing the game less?
I don't think so.
All things that weren't there to be seen, was added by using our fantasy.
At least so it was for me.

...my five cents.