Apologists for evil

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Shearwater

"There is no such thing as Islamophobia" - I guess there is no such thing as antisemitism or persecution of Christians either Thank you Pat. You made me take a stand. It is not your own.

Every criticism of Islam and refusing to tolerate it'S totalitarianism, inhumanity and aggressive drive, today get's brandmarked as "islamophobia" and "abuse of free speech".

It is as if criticising Neonazis would be labelled as an "intolerant attitude towards others" or a "democratic deficit" or "lacking respect for different views". Note: one offence against Islam's self-understanding weighs a thousand times heavier than a hundred offences against western culture and values. Or Naziphobia. Well, I am a proud Naziphobic. and if such is the meaning of being a phobic - essentially having a meaning that is so distorted that terms mean nothing anymore - I am a confessing, proud Islamophobic as well.

Short while ago, an egyptian woman was murdered by a real racist indeed in a German courtroom, he offended her over her skin colour on the street, and she sued him. Result: mass hysteria in many Islamic countries, for days and weeks. Attacks on the German government not bending over to present it's bare bottom for the spanking, and refusing to apologize. Apologise for what? But also short time ago a german man, who just had fled from a german prison, was stabbed to death on a street in istanbul. Reaction in the Muslim world: silence. - Some years ago, several Christian clerics and a nun, both Catholics and orthodox, were stabbed on open street in Turkey, Egypt and Syria, if I remember correctly. Reaction in the Muslim world: silence, here and there some silent lip-confessions, soon to be unheared again. - Or the Danish cartoon hysteria. - The islam-infiltrated UN comission on human rights, trying to enforce that criticism of religion in general and Islam in special becomes a crime and should be persecuted by law. - Ethnic and cultural minorities in Islamic nations constantly being reduced and driven back, in accordance with quranic demands getting constantly discriminated as well . But Islam in the West being supported, expanding, getting fostered like crazy, driving locals away in regions and towns throughout europe, because sometimes residents are so pissed by being expected to live in an enforced Islamised environment.

Sure, it's all islamophobia.

For some, the shortest way to silence unwanted opposing views is to claim they are xyz-phobia or simply racism (and at the same time ignoring the object of that opposing criticism). But that is no argument. That is rethorics exclusively, illustrating that there is a lack of argument.

[Letum]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Every criticism of Islam and refusing to tolerate it'S totalitarianism, inhumanity and aggressive drive, today get's brandmarked as "islamophobia" and "abuse of free speech".

Criticism of Islam; fine!
Calling Islam "inhumane", "totalitarian" and "aggressive"; that is at the
very least an unfair generalization of the many and varied ways that Islam
is practiced.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Letum

Calling Islam "inhumane", "totalitarian" and "aggressive"; that is at the
very least an unfair generalization of the many and varied ways that Islam
is practiced.

Quatsch.

Originally Posted by Letum

Criticism of Islam; fine!
Calling Islam "inhumane", "totalitarian" and "aggressive"; that is at the
very least an unfair generalization of the many and varied ways that Islam
is practiced.

It would certainly be unfair if so called moderate muslims would stand against those who would subvert and criminalize their religion. But they don't. Why?

[Letum]

They generally do.

Originally Posted by Mikhayl

First, why would they have to at all?

Quick answer..........

Because Muslims feel persecuted. Or so I've heard. If that isn't the case, never mind.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Pat Condell

(...)
The truth is - and this is the truth whether you clowns want to hear it or not - that many people in the West feel that we are being invaded - yes, that is the word: invaded - by a religion and a culture whose values we totally reject: not because we are racists, but because the values themselves are degrading and offensive.
(...)
There is no such thing like "Islamophobia", it simply doesn't exist, and most people just realise now what a cynical, manipulative lie that word really is. Suspicion of or dislike for Islam is not a phobia - it is an honest, healthy reaction to the evidence that's being provided.
(...)
These words [racism and islamophobia, Skybird] are being used quite shamelessly to try to engineer an artificial sense of guilt in western society, to redefine our values as prejudices and to silence legitimate opinion and free exchange of ideas that have made us what we are and that have given us our strength - and this is damaging our free society in a fundamental way, and it has got to stop.
(...)
... we need to get the oxygene of freedom flowing through our veins again and through our brains again, and get things back into perspective. We have nothing to apologise for, and we have nothing to feel guilty about, and our way of life, despite it's many faults - of which we all are very well aware, thank you! - is still far, far superior to anything that Islam has to offer, or will ever have to offer, especially if you're female, or Jewish, or homosexual, or just a common garden blasphemer like me. That is the truth, and most people in the Western world realise it's the truth, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with them saying so as loudly and as often as they like. And you lefty liberal multi-cultural appeasement monkeys, you'll not gonna like it, and you'll certainly not wanna speak out for the values that give you the freedom to be the useful idiots that you are...

Defend Islam. Relativise it. Show how clever and sensible and tolerant you are. Be a happy Lemming. Get kicked over the top once you reached there.

The socialists and communists in iran were thinking like you, and thus concluded they could tame islam and ally with Khomenei. Big mistake. The first thing Khomenei did when having secured his power was to hang them up on telephone poles in the streets. You cannot be a clever little Dick and a Muhammedan at the same time. The Quran is against that, and the Quran is not negotiable.

That's what Islam is, Letum. Islam in Quranic understanding, and there is no other Islam than that basing on the Quran. You may stray off from it. But then you are no longer a muhammedan, but a heretic, free to get slaughtered (slaughtering you then, by Quranic demand, is not a freedom but a mandatory duty for true Muhammedans).

Many Muhammedans - probably especially some of those you often have on your mind when defending Islam - are not half as Islamic as they think. From a Quranic point of view, they are condemnded people. That'S why socalled "radical Islamists" (whatever that fictional and artifical word creation should mean, it is new in history) are right from their perspective to blow up such false Muslims, like they blow up infidels as well.

[Letum]

Originally Posted by Skybird

That what Islam is

That is what is is according to you, but not according to the majority of it's
civilized practitioners.
I think they have more right to define it than you do.

ed: Tell me you didn't just spend (how long?!) transcribing that.
Wow, such energy indeed.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Letum

That is what is is according to you, but not according to the majority of it's
civilized practitioners.
I think they have more right to define it than you do.

No, that is just what you claim, and you are wrong, because you refuse to open your eyes to face a reality not matching your kind and "civilised" model of the world. You are about your fantasy of what "Islam" means. to you it is just a word that you fill with your imagined content, but to me - and true devout Muslims as well - it is a historic fact that bases on solid tradition and teaching, fixed black on white with ink and paper: the Quran. Whenever you talk about Islam, you reveal that you talk about your own images only of what islam should be, or could be - accoprding to you, and according to those wishful thoughts of people that Pat just called the "appeasement monkeys" - you are not about Islam according to Muhammad and the Quran. But that is the only islam worth to be named "Islam". Anything else is something different only.

That sounds fundamentalistic? Yes, it is. All Islam is deepoly fundamentalistic in general, funda,mentlaism is not just one sect inside a canon of islamic traditions, like it is the case with the huge diversity of Christian branches. I get criticised for saying that Muslims not being fundamentalists are not truly Muslims, I get criticed that I make it easy for me by just deleting all non-fundamental "Muslims" from my list of what islam is. but it is not the easy path at all - it simply is the truth. Moderate muslims are heretics, if they really comnpare to the true Muslim standards set by the Quran. and I think that this is a widespread subconscious knowledge that is one of the reasons for the modern, deep-rooting inferiority complex in Muslim societies, that causes - in form of over-compensating mechanisms - much of the hostile energy, the expansive aggressive dynamic and collective hysteria over so-called western "offences" in their societies.

Islam is neither a peaceful religion, nor a teaching of tolerance and coexistence. It is a tyrannic call for ultimate militant conquest, and subjugation of all that is not islamic already. Says not me, but Muhammad. Says the Quran. Says Islamic history from the first day on.

[Shearwater]

Originally Posted by Skybird

[...] socalled "radical Islamists" (whatever that fictional and artifical word creation should mean, it is new in history) [...]

So it's new, and that means it's inappropriate? Not a sign that some people, not all of course, are able to differentiate?

Originally Posted by Letum

Speak to any given Muslim in England or Germany and chances are he will interpret the Quran and Muhammad and talk of a very different Islam to yours and Pat's.

I second Letum's response. I second it most decidedly.

Dear old McCarthy would be proud of Pat. And I am deeply concerned.
Why?
Because I think that he does a very nasty thing. He redefines one of the most crucial achievements of Western civilization and society as one of its greatest vices. It is the ability of self criticism, which Mr Condell redefines as self hatred.
His is the process of mentally outlawing a whole religion.
I do not know how the society looks like Mr Condell is conceiving of. But I do know that I would not want to live in it.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Shearwater

So it's new, and that means it's inappropriate? Not a sign that some people, not all of course, are able to differentiate?



I second Letum's response. I second it most decidedly.

Dear old McCarthy would be proud of Pat. And I am deeply concerned.
Why?
Because I think that he does a very nasty thing. He redefines one of the most crucial achievements of Western civilization and society as one of its greatest vices. It is the ability of self criticism, which Mr Condell redefines as self hatred.
His is the process of mentally outlawing a whole religion.
I do not know how the society looks like Mr Condell is conceiving of. But I do know that I would not want to live in it.

the problem is not our attitude. The problem is Islam's inhumane, intolerant values, and it'S fundamental hostility towards other ciltures, and women. You can weasel as much as you want and relabel Western self-deception as it's precious "self criticism". You can offend all victims of islam that suffered so miserably from it, and offend all women trying to escape from it, and can excuse the ongoing mass killing of infidels by pointing out that a thiousand years ago the crusades were like uislam still is today - you can do all that, as long as you still have the freedom to form your opinion, even if it is simply ignoring the facts. that is the freedom ou have been given by living in our coutnries, the freedom that you value so low and throw away so carelessly by inviting it's enemies and encouraging them and ennobling them.

This your freedom that you use withio9ut even noticing it - this freedom is what Islam detests most.

What really is to be criticised is not criticism of Islam, but Islam'S values. They are a problem, becasue they are strictly against those values that we have anchored in our own cultures and constitutions, after our forefathers fought to achieve them in centuries of bitter fights and miserable suffering.

And you give it away headlessly - and even be proud of doing so. You should feel ashamed.