Apologists for evil

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Pat Condell

(...)
The truth is - and this is the truth whether you clowns want to hear it or not - that many people in the West feel that we are being invaded - yes, that is the word: invaded - by a religion and a culture whose values we totally reject: not because we are racists, but because the values themselves are degrading and offensive.
(...)
There is no such thing like "Islamophobia", it simply doesn't exist, and most people just realise now what a cynical, manipulative lie that word really is. Suspicion of or dislike for Islam is not a phobia - it is an honest, healthy reaction to the evidence that's being provided.
(...)
These words [racism and islamophobia, Skybird] are being used quite shamelessly to try to engineer an artificial sense of guilt in western society, to redefine our values as prejudices and to silence legitimate opinion and free exchange of ideas that have made us what we are and that have given us our strength - and this is damaging our free society in a fundamental way, and it has got to stop.
(...)
... we need to get the oxygene of freedom flowing through our veins again and through our brains again, and get things back into perspective. We have nothing to apologise for, and we have nothing to feel guilty about, and our way of life, despite it's many faults - of which we all are very well aware, thank you! - is still far, far superior to anything that Islam has to offer, or will ever have to offer, especially if you're female, or Jewish, or homosexual, or just a common garden blasphemer like me. That is the truth, and most people in the Western world realise it's the truth, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with them saying so as loudly and as often as they like. And you lefty liberal multi-cultural appeasement monkeys, you'll not gonna like it, and you'll certainly not wanna speak out for the values that give you the freedom to be the useful idiots that you are...

Defend Islam. Relativise it. Show how clever and sensible and tolerant you are. Be a happy Lemming. Get kicked over the top once you reached there.

The socialists and communists in iran were thinking like you, and thus concluded they could tame islam and ally with Khomenei. Big mistake. The first thing Khomenei did when having secured his power was to hang them up on telephone poles in the streets. You cannot be a clever little Dick and a Muhammedan at the same time. The Quran is against that, and the Quran is not negotiable.

That's what Islam is, Letum. Islam in Quranic understanding, and there is no other Islam than that basing on the Quran. You may stray off from it. But then you are no longer a muhammedan, but a heretic, free to get slaughtered (slaughtering you then, by Quranic demand, is not a freedom but a mandatory duty for true Muhammedans).

Many Muhammedans - probably especially some of those you often have on your mind when defending Islam - are not half as Islamic as they think. From a Quranic point of view, they are condemnded people. That'S why socalled "radical Islamists" (whatever that fictional and artifical word creation should mean, it is new in history) are right from their perspective to blow up such false Muslims, like they blow up infidels as well.

[Letum]

Originally Posted by Skybird

That what Islam is

That is what is is according to you, but not according to the majority of it's
civilized practitioners.
I think they have more right to define it than you do.

ed: Tell me you didn't just spend (how long?!) transcribing that.
Wow, such energy indeed.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Letum

That is what is is according to you, but not according to the majority of it's
civilized practitioners.
I think they have more right to define it than you do.

No, that is just what you claim, and you are wrong, because you refuse to open your eyes to face a reality not matching your kind and "civilised" model of the world. You are about your fantasy of what "Islam" means. to you it is just a word that you fill with your imagined content, but to me - and true devout Muslims as well - it is a historic fact that bases on solid tradition and teaching, fixed black on white with ink and paper: the Quran. Whenever you talk about Islam, you reveal that you talk about your own images only of what islam should be, or could be - accoprding to you, and according to those wishful thoughts of people that Pat just called the "appeasement monkeys" - you are not about Islam according to Muhammad and the Quran. But that is the only islam worth to be named "Islam". Anything else is something different only.

That sounds fundamentalistic? Yes, it is. All Islam is deepoly fundamentalistic in general, funda,mentlaism is not just one sect inside a canon of islamic traditions, like it is the case with the huge diversity of Christian branches. I get criticised for saying that Muslims not being fundamentalists are not truly Muslims, I get criticed that I make it easy for me by just deleting all non-fundamental "Muslims" from my list of what islam is. but it is not the easy path at all - it simply is the truth. Moderate muslims are heretics, if they really comnpare to the true Muslim standards set by the Quran. and I think that this is a widespread subconscious knowledge that is one of the reasons for the modern, deep-rooting inferiority complex in Muslim societies, that causes - in form of over-compensating mechanisms - much of the hostile energy, the expansive aggressive dynamic and collective hysteria over so-called western "offences" in their societies.

Islam is neither a peaceful religion, nor a teaching of tolerance and coexistence. It is a tyrannic call for ultimate militant conquest, and subjugation of all that is not islamic already. Says not me, but Muhammad. Says the Quran. Says Islamic history from the first day on.

[Letum]

Speak to any given Muslim in England or Germany and chances are he will
interpret the Quran and Muhammad and talk of a very different Islam to
yours and Pat's.

Again, I think they have more right to interpret the Quran and Muhammad
and define Islam than you do. That's a good thing to! If all Muslims did
treat Islam they way you do, we would be in a pickle. Clearly they do not.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Letum

Speak to any given Muslim in England or Germany and chances are he will
interpret the Quran and Muhammad and talk of a very different Islam to
yours and Pat's.

Again, I think they have more right to interpret the Quran and Muhammad
and define Islam than you do. That's a good thing to! If all Muslims did
treat Islam they way you do, we would be in a pickle. Clearly they do not.

You fool probably also think that the pope is the best and most objective authority to give you a fair assessement of catholicism and it'S shining history.

And you are wrong - I have all right in the world and certainly as much right as any other person that is or is not Muslim to interpret the Quran. that's one of the great things in our societies here in the West. And what Islam is and what it is not, does not get defined by you, or other people, or me - but the term is reserved for a preset, given set of teachings and traditions, whether you like that or not. the Quran is not really open for interpretation. a lot of weaseling around single quotes in it is just deception and opportunism. Especially opportunism. It is the most hypocritical and lying piece of written work I ever have read. and I think that character of it is not by chance, but intentional - to always find the best excuse for piushing muhammad's demands. He might have been a murderous greedy bastard, but sure as hell he was clever.

And btw, I have talked to Muslims in far more countries than just England and Germany (but in germany as well, for sure). Where do you think I have gotten my ideas about Islam? From smoking some kraut? I tell you: from academic books as the first source of information, and then from travelling in Muslim countries later, seeing people there.

An finally this, and you may finally want to pay attention to it: a,lot of Muslims speak pout about islam exactly the way I do and Pat does - they spit their hostile truth into your very face - and you fool ignore it, and claim it never happeend, and they do not exist even if you read their hate-filled pamphletes in the newspaper, or on posters, or on TV! wjhat the heck is wrong with you...? you get a slap in the face - and your only reaction is: "nothing happened." Or better: "It did not happen."

[Letum]

No need for name calling.

Originally Posted by Skybird

You fool probably also think that the pope is the best and most objective authority to give you a fair assessement of catholicism and it'S shining history.

Catholicism and the history of Catholicism are two very different things.
even the Catholic church has changed a lot since it was a part of the
Roman empire. It has even changed since last year and will do so
indefinitely.

Catholicism today is not it's history and it is not the bible.
If a Martian had only a copy of the bible, he would learn very little about
Catholicism and would likely guess a great many false things about it.

The same is true should a Martian try to learn about modern Islam from
the Quran or today's Judaism from the Torah.

A religion is the belief system/values held by the body of it's practitioners.

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by Skybird

You fool

[Oberon]

Ah, an Islam thread, I've been waiting for one of these to pop up again. Makes a change from Obama I suppose

[Shearwater]

Originally Posted by Skybird

[...] socalled "radical Islamists" (whatever that fictional and artifical word creation should mean, it is new in history) [...]

So it's new, and that means it's inappropriate? Not a sign that some people, not all of course, are able to differentiate?

Originally Posted by Letum

Speak to any given Muslim in England or Germany and chances are he will interpret the Quran and Muhammad and talk of a very different Islam to yours and Pat's.

I second Letum's response. I second it most decidedly.

Dear old McCarthy would be proud of Pat. And I am deeply concerned.
Why?
Because I think that he does a very nasty thing. He redefines one of the most crucial achievements of Western civilization and society as one of its greatest vices. It is the ability of self criticism, which Mr Condell redefines as self hatred.
His is the process of mentally outlawing a whole religion.
I do not know how the society looks like Mr Condell is conceiving of. But I do know that I would not want to live in it.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Shearwater

So it's new, and that means it's inappropriate? Not a sign that some people, not all of course, are able to differentiate?



I second Letum's response. I second it most decidedly.

Dear old McCarthy would be proud of Pat. And I am deeply concerned.
Why?
Because I think that he does a very nasty thing. He redefines one of the most crucial achievements of Western civilization and society as one of its greatest vices. It is the ability of self criticism, which Mr Condell redefines as self hatred.
His is the process of mentally outlawing a whole religion.
I do not know how the society looks like Mr Condell is conceiving of. But I do know that I would not want to live in it.

the problem is not our attitude. The problem is Islam's inhumane, intolerant values, and it'S fundamental hostility towards other ciltures, and women. You can weasel as much as you want and relabel Western self-deception as it's precious "self criticism". You can offend all victims of islam that suffered so miserably from it, and offend all women trying to escape from it, and can excuse the ongoing mass killing of infidels by pointing out that a thiousand years ago the crusades were like uislam still is today - you can do all that, as long as you still have the freedom to form your opinion, even if it is simply ignoring the facts. that is the freedom ou have been given by living in our coutnries, the freedom that you value so low and throw away so carelessly by inviting it's enemies and encouraging them and ennobling them.

This your freedom that you use withio9ut even noticing it - this freedom is what Islam detests most.

What really is to be criticised is not criticism of Islam, but Islam'S values. They are a problem, becasue they are strictly against those values that we have anchored in our own cultures and constitutions, after our forefathers fought to achieve them in centuries of bitter fights and miserable suffering.

And you give it away headlessly - and even be proud of doing so. You should feel ashamed.