Torpedo evasion manouvers

Captain Sub · 01-25-10, 06:51 PM

Dear folks,

how to evade incoming torpedos when your sub is not a seawolf and both countermeasures have failed?

Here's a real fun manouver I developed back then, the insane dimitri: (proof screenshots down in the thread)

1. Go to a shallow depth of aproximately 130-150m.
2. Go to max speed (atleast ~33kts). If cavitation occurs, descend a few meters until it stops.
3. Turn your boat so the torpedo approaches at your 9 o'clock and keep it that way.
4. Fasten seatbelts and remove & secure all dishes aswell as other loose and fragile objects.
5. When the torpedo is in range of 1 nautical mile (know by the ping), immediatly set rudder to 33° right (maximum!) while setting depth to something like 1000m (making sure all tanks are 100% flooded for fastest possible crash diving)
The sub will now be set into a crazy downspiral and for a moment the boat may appear as much as 45° (corrected) nose down!
5. Now you have to experiment, because I don't remember this part so well. At some point in your crazy downspiral (when you're at 400m or so) reset the rudder and set depth to max depth (550~ if i remember correctly, depends on sea level) so the boat will leave the spiral and level at exactly at max depth. There isn't anything to do wrong or chances of suicide once you have found the right timings.
If you reset the rudder too late and don't have enough downward motion anymore, I believe the fast drift will kill your speed. It's safer to reset the rudder before ordering max depth.

The fast change of direction and depth has the potential to confuse a torpedo, however to your detriment comes the fact that in DW, sometimes torpedos can perform athletic manouvers of up/downward movements.
I would say that with this technique, your survival chances per torpeo lie at aproximately 1/4.

Because this is from my memory and I currently don't have DW installed, there could be inacurate information here. After all you'll have to test this for yourself.
Also: I'm not sure how mods play into this, I used to play mostly stock 1.3 back then.

This was the only remotely effective emergency manouver I found that could shake off a torpedo in a situation after everything else has failed, but I'd be pleased to hear about your manouvers aswell.

peace

goldorak · 01-25-10, 07:17 PM

Ha so you're a sitting duck waiting for the torpedo to acquire you and then do some last effort manoeuvers to try to escape ? Thats a very bad way to do torpedo evasion. With whatever mod you're playing.
The first rule is don't let the torpedo acquire you, and put the torpedo always at 120 degree from your course. If the torpedo is wireguided and a player is on the other side you're not even guaranteed that he will go active. What happens if he goes passive ? Your active intercept is useless and therefore the estimated distance of the torpedo is unknown without the pings.
No, the right way to evade is to know what the torpedo is doing, launching an uuv can be very helpfull, launching countermeasures not so much since the adversary can triangulate their position and therefore your own position much quicker and of course bypass them.

Captain Sub · 01-25-10, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldorak

Ha so you're a sitting duck waiting for the torpedo to acquire you and then do some last effort manoeuvers to try to escape ? Thats a very bad way to do torpedo evasion. With whatever mod you're playing.
The first rule is don't let the torpedo acquire you, and put the torpedo always at 120 degree from your course. If the torpedo is wireguided and a player is on the other side you're not even guaranteed that he will go active. What happens if he goes passive ? Your active intercept is useless and therefore the estimated distance of the torpedo is unknown without the pings.
No, the right way to evade is to know what the torpedo is doing, launching an uuv can be very helpfull, launching countermeasures not so much since the adversary can triangulate their position and therefore your own position much quicker and of course bypass them.

You didn't get it at all, did you?

Since Patch 1.4 by the way, wire-guided torpedos have been made useless, so ASW's are the only real contenders left.
If a few of those are dropped 3nm near you out of thin air, and two of them hang on to your countermeasures but 1 gets through, what are ye gonna do, huh?

Arclight · 01-25-10, 08:54 PM

Pray?

goldorak · 01-25-10, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Sub

You didn't get it at all, did you?

Since Patch 1.4 by the way, wire-guided torpedos have been made useless, so ASW's are the only real contenders left.
If a few of those are dropped 3nm near you out of thin air, and two of them hang on to your countermeasures but 1 gets through, what are ye gonna do, huh?

Why oh why are you still using DW+1.04 ?

Use Lwami 3.09/3.10 mod or AT3 mod or DWX mod.
The gameplay experience changes 180 degrees and for the better.

Captain Sub · 01-25-10, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arclight

Pray?

Or do something about it and use the little manouver I demonstrated here...

got it, now?

And now, back on topic, please.

Arclight · 01-26-10, 12:04 AM

Jeesh, relax man. I got it the first time.

To be honest though, sending a sub in an out-of-control downward spiral doesn't strike me as proper procedure.

Ussually I go to flank, turn to get the incoming torpedo at my 90deg, either port or starboard, and turn into it hard when it's close, and order a change of depth.

If your method works, fine, but mine doesn't produce so much soiled underwear (70deg down-angle?!

).

Dr.Sid · 01-26-10, 03:02 PM

70 downward angle in DW ? Now you really must be playing some special mod.

Anyway there is even better maneuver. Don't get shoot at. Torpedo evasion means you failed. Sure, it will happen often in the game, but you should always think about how to avoid that.
But otherwise I agree .. getting away is often everything you need. Sure, if you get torpedo dropped from 3 miles, drop as many CMs as possible and do your 70 degrees trick (if you can), and praying is good too and screaming usual.
But if it is regular torpedo running at you from some distance, especially those cheap'n'slow Chinese stuff .. simply run.
It's good tactic in FFG too, as it has no CM (that towed one is mostly useless). But in FFG you can avoid being shot at more easily, as it has helos.

Molon Labe · 01-26-10, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

70 downward angle in DW ? Now you really must be playing some special mod.

That "mod" is DW 1.03, which had some pretty major ship control issues. He's found a way to use them to his advantage, that's all. It shouldn't be possible to do that in DW 1.04, the "auto planesmen" keep that from happening. The input of the rudder might even be overridden at high speed or something to that effect--the rudder command ends up being a "max performance turn" instead of something that sends the sub into an SUV rollover.

Dr.Sid · 01-26-10, 07:56 PM

Cool .. I didn't know that. I know 1.03 had depth keeping troubles, but that it actually sent sub down in turn, which is realistic, that is new to me.
Of course it is a problem as long as you don't have ways to counter it.

Molon Labe · 01-26-10, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

Cool .. I didn't know that. I know 1.03 had depth keeping troubles, but that it actually sent sub down in turn, which is realistic, that is new to me.
Of course it is a problem as long as you don't have ways to counter it.

Yes, exactly. And that's exactly how the debate went back then, realistic physics vs. ways to control the ship to get realistic high-performance maneuvering.

Captain Sub · 01-27-10, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

That "mod" is DW 1.03, which had some pretty major ship control issues. He's found a way to use them to his advantage, that's all. It shouldn't be possible to do that in DW 1.04, the "auto planesmen" keep that from happening. The input of the rudder might even be overridden at high speed or something to that effect--the rudder command ends up being a "max performance turn" instead of something that sends the sub into an SUV rollover.

We'll see about that

, as I'll have DW 1.04 installed in a few hours.

peace

Captain Sub · 01-27-10, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

That "mod" is DW 1.03, which had some pretty major ship control issues. He's found a way to use them to his advantage, that's all. It shouldn't be possible to do that in DW 1.04, the "auto planesmen" keep that from happening. The input of the rudder might even be overridden at high speed or something to that effect--the rudder command ends up being a "max performance turn" instead of something that sends the sub into an SUV rollover.

I have DW 1.04 installed and tested this manouver.

So I went into a singleplayer mission with 'show truth' on and let someone fire a torpedo and waited til it started homing in.

At about 0.8nm it started homing in on me so I did my insane dimitri as described above.
The torpedo got completly confused and lost it's tracking on me and went by.

Tested it a second time firing a 65cm torpedo and steering it back to my boat in active homing.

It nose dived down right at me but then suddenly it lost it's homing and simply continued forward. In the picture you can see below the torpedo simply continued forward without making any turns, a bug? You're right the manouver doesn't make the boat go 80° down, only 45° now but it still works as good as it did back then, or even better lol. Torpedos normally make the most artistic turns, they get you 100% no matter how fast you're diving or turning. But for some reason, this manouver confuses them completly.
So, with my secret trick revealed, you have a lifesaver for the worst case scenario at your hands, take it or leave it :P

Same here...torpedo completly confused and passing me without making any turn for another half minute or so.

and another test. all 3 out of 3 tests succesful. This actually works better than in 1.03 lol!

peace

goldorak · 01-27-10, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Sub

I have DW 1.04 installed and tested this manouver.

[cut]

So, with my secret trick revealed, you have a lifesaver for the worst case scenario at your hands, take it or leave it :P

[cut]

peace

Yeah its a lifesaver allright IF you're still "crazy" enough to play with DW 1.04.
Try out Lwami 3.09/3.10 or AT3 or DWX and you'll see a whole new more realistic game. These dogfight maneouvers are all but eliminated.

Captain Sub · 01-27-10, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldorak

Yeah its a lifesaver allright IF you're still "crazy" enough to play with DW 1.04.
Try out Lwami 3.09/3.10 or AT3 or DWX and you'll see a whole new more realistic game. These dogfight maneouvers are all but eliminated.

dear goldorak,

ok I'll test Lwami, the AT3 or DWX I don't know where to get. None of them are posted in the subsim download sections.

01-25-10, 06:51 PM	#1
Captain Sub Gunner Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 91 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Torpedo evasion manouvers Dear folks, how to evade incoming torpedos when your sub is not a seawolf and both countermeasures have failed? Here's a real fun manouver I developed back then, the insane dimitri: (proof screenshots down in the thread) 1. Go to a shallow depth of aproximately 130-150m. 2. Go to max speed (atleast ~33kts). If cavitation occurs, descend a few meters until it stops. 3. Turn your boat so the torpedo approaches at your 9 o'clock and keep it that way. 4. Fasten seatbelts and remove & secure all dishes aswell as other loose and fragile objects. 5. When the torpedo is in range of 1 nautical mile (know by the ping), immediatly set rudder to 33° right (maximum!) while setting depth to something like 1000m (making sure all tanks are 100% flooded for fastest possible crash diving) The sub will now be set into a crazy downspiral and for a moment the boat may appear as much as 45° (corrected) nose down! 5. Now you have to experiment, because I don't remember this part so well. At some point in your crazy downspiral (when you're at 400m or so) reset the rudder and set depth to max depth (550~ if i remember correctly, depends on sea level) so the boat will leave the spiral and level at exactly at max depth. There isn't anything to do wrong or chances of suicide once you have found the right timings. If you reset the rudder too late and don't have enough downward motion anymore, I believe the fast drift will kill your speed. It's safer to reset the rudder before ordering max depth. The fast change of direction and depth has the potential to confuse a torpedo, however to your detriment comes the fact that in DW, sometimes torpedos can perform athletic manouvers of up/downward movements. I would say that with this technique, your survival chances per torpeo lie at aproximately 1/4. Because this is from my memory and I currently don't have DW installed, there could be inacurate information here. After all you'll have to test this for yourself. Also: I'm not sure how mods play into this, I used to play mostly stock 1.3 back then. This was the only remotely effective emergency manouver I found that could shake off a torpedo in a situation after everything else has failed, but I'd be pleased to hear about your manouvers aswell. peace Last edited by Captain Sub; 01-29-10 at 08:04 AM.

01-25-10, 08:54 PM	#4
Arclight Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Land of windmills, tulips, wooden shoes and cheese. Lots of cheese. Posts: 8,467 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 10	Pray? __________________ Contritium praecedit superbia.

01-26-10, 12:04 AM	#7
Arclight Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Land of windmills, tulips, wooden shoes and cheese. Lots of cheese. Posts: 8,467 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 10	Jeesh, relax man. I got it the first time. To be honest though, sending a sub in an out-of-control downward spiral doesn't strike me as proper procedure. Ussually I go to flank, turn to get the incoming torpedo at my 90deg, either port or starboard, and turn into it hard when it's close, and order a change of depth. If your method works, fine, but mine doesn't produce so much soiled underwear (70deg down-angle?! ). __________________ Contritium praecedit superbia.

01-26-10, 03:02 PM	#8
Dr.Sid The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	70 downward angle in DW ? Now you really must be playing some special mod. Anyway there is even better maneuver. Don't get shoot at. Torpedo evasion means you failed. Sure, it will happen often in the game, but you should always think about how to avoid that. But otherwise I agree .. getting away is often everything you need. Sure, if you get torpedo dropped from 3 miles, drop as many CMs as possible and do your 70 degrees trick (if you can), and praying is good too and screaming usual. But if it is regular torpedo running at you from some distance, especially those cheap'n'slow Chinese stuff .. simply run. It's good tactic in FFG too, as it has no CM (that towed one is mostly useless). But in FFG you can avoid being shot at more easily, as it has helos. __________________ ComSubSim forum at CADC

01-26-10, 07:56 PM	#10
Dr.Sid The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Cool .. I didn't know that. I know 1.03 had depth keeping troubles, but that it actually sent sub down in turn, which is realistic, that is new to me. Of course it is a problem as long as you don't have ways to counter it. __________________ ComSubSim forum at CADC

01-25-10, 07:17 PM	#2
goldorak Admiral Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,320 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Ha so you're a sitting duck waiting for the torpedo to acquire you and then do some last effort manoeuvers to try to escape ? Thats a very bad way to do torpedo evasion. With whatever mod you're playing. The first rule is don't let the torpedo acquire you, and put the torpedo always at 120 degree from your course. If the torpedo is wireguided and a player is on the other side you're not even guaranteed that he will go active. What happens if he goes passive ? Your active intercept is useless and therefore the estimated distance of the torpedo is unknown without the pings. No, the right way to evade is to know what the torpedo is doing, launching an uuv can be very helpfull, launching countermeasures not so much since the adversary can triangulate their position and therefore your own position much quicker and of course bypass them.