Strike on North Korea

[Gargamel]

From the subsim frontpage:
http://www.businessinsider.com/us-navy-seals-f-35s-decapitation-strike-north-korea-2017-3

The annual Foal Eagle military drills between the US and South Korea will include some heavy hitters this year — the Navy SEAL team that took out Osama bin Laden, Army Special Forces, and F-35s — South Korea's Joon Gang Daily reports (http://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=3030894&cloc=joongangdaily%7Chome%7Ctop).

My initial reaction is that of course we should have plans in place for most foreseeable scenarios. This one is looking more and more relevant as time passes.

But then the f-35's got me. I was under the impression these were not in active service yet, but perhaps I'm wrong. I can see a few being used in a training exercise, but not on actual missions yet. Seems more of an F-22 thing anyways. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Jimbuna]

http://i.imgur.com/Su0vvBu.jpg

[Red October1984]

But then the f-35's got me. I was under the impression these were not in active service yet, but perhaps I'm wrong. I can see a few being used in a training exercise, but not on actual missions yet. Seems more of an F-22 thing anyways. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

From what I understand, they performed extremely well during testing.

The article mentions that they'll supplement the F-22's alongside other assets. Personally, I'm not a fan of the F-35 but it'll be interesting to see how it performs in the real world whenever and wherever that may be.

I think that if North Korea can come right out and say they are practicing nuking the US or Japan or wherever....we can practice to stop them.

[mapuc]

According to some American(can't remember his/her name and title)said to some news agency, that USA kept every possibility open.

When he said that(through a Swedish news program) I knew that we very soon will see some kind of military action against NK- On the other hand, I'm very bad to predict coming events

Edit: Have an additional question- How far is NK in they developing their Nukes-I know they have nukes, but can they add these to their short and medium range missiles ?


Markus

[Delgard]

All these weapon systems are futures and what is had, is in limited numbers and they have a lot f commitments as it is...it seems. We just got a squadron of F35 aircraft in Tucson (or will), and I think it is number four in the States.

[Rockstar]

According to some American(can't remember his/her name and title)said to some news agency, that USA kept every possibility open.

When he said that(through a Swedish news program) I knew that we very soon will see some kind of military action against NK- On the other hand, I'm very bad to predict coming events

Edit: Have an additional question- How far is NK in they developing their Nukes-I know they have nukes, but can they add these to their short and medium range missiles ?


Markus

It was Rex Tillerson our Secretary of State that said: "All of the options are on the table". Which I believe included preemtive strikes and bringing back U.S. nuclear weapons to the peninsula.

[vienna]

Oh, what the hell...

Let Trump flex his muscles (putting a severe strain on his tiny, tiny hands as he tries to clench his fists) and let him go ahead and initiate military action, create a highly unpredictable crisis, and destabilize yet another region of the world; I mean, it worked so extremely well the last time a POTUS got an inexplicable bug up his lower extremity of his torso and tried to prove his manhood: Trump can even strut out of the White House with a big "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" banner behind him...

What could possibly go wrong?...




<O>

[Rockstar]

As I pointed out in another topic we abided by the North/South nuke free zone agreement many years ago and removed our nuclear weapons in the early nineties. Since that time the only one flexing muscle, making threats, developing and testing nuclear weapons and delivery systems is the DPRK. I think what Tillerson said was more for China's ear to hear to help set the tone for his visit with them, than an immediate threat of war with North Korea.


we have allowed them to kill off thoughtful and intelligent discussion. All hail the party, toe the line and long live the divide!

[mapuc]

It was Rex Tillerson our Secretary of State that said: "All of the options are on the table". Which I believe included preemtive strikes and bringing back U.S. nuclear weapons to the peninsula.

Thank you, that was his name.

At the same time the author created this thread I made a discussion about the same on my FB-wall. There I wrote USA will not do anything without having discussed this with China and furthermore,
for the first time a Seal Team is a part of this upcoming exercise, what this mean I can't tell, someone mentioned that their job was to "cut of the snakes head"(my words) in NK
I wonder if China would approve this, ´cause its unthinkable that USA would take should steps against NK without having discussed this with China

Markus

[vienna]

A good point, but, remember, the US currently has a POTUS who seems to believe the "unthinkable" is an acceptable norm...




<O>

[Platapus]

When one does not think, most things are unthinkable.

(rimshot)

[Delgard]

I wonder if they can be re-unified. KJU would want control and the South Korean people would think he is an idiot. The people of South Korea have a pretty strong voice.

NK will only get worse, slowly maybe and with un-noticed hardship for most of the people of NK, but do it now...or deal with it later? Will something be able to be done later?

China does not want a South Korea on their border. The cost of re-unification is tremendously large and would take...years for South Korea.

Obviously, South Korea, nor Japan for that matter, wants a nuke delivered. Actually, Japan has a good chance of getting it first. NK doesn't really see South Korea as the ideological enemy, but, an American base in Japan would tell Japan, South Korea, and the U.S. just how dangerous it can get.

[ikalugin]

Actually it appears that behind all this foreighn policy related stuff there is a growing gray market economy in DPRK. Could it be that the said agressive foreighn policy is a way for the DPRK elites to maintain control over the state (and soverenity of their country) through slow economic and institutional transition?

[Mr Quatro]

Remember the 1989 revolution in Romania?

http://adst.org/2015/10/the-1989-romanian-revolution-and-the-fall-of-ceausescu/

The Romanian Revolution started in the city of Timișoara on December 16, as one ethnic Hungarian pastor spoke out against regime policies. This led to massive protests and a crackdown by the military. Ceaușescu then made a speech at Palace (now Revolution) Square, on December 21, where people in the crowd, who had been bussed in to show support, began openly booing him and chanting “Timisoara!”

Rank-and-file members of the military switched, almost unanimously, from supporting the dictator to backing the protesting population. Rioting in several Romanian cities forced Ceausescu and his wife Elena, who was also Deputy Prime Minister, to flee the next day. They were quickly captured, tried, and then executed on Christmas Day 1989.

I think the same thing could happen in North Korea ... but first the people have to know how bad they are really being treated in order to promote such a recurrence.

I propose the Army tricks department come up with some dandy little items like thousands of cell phones dropped in by balloons and drones and even launched from fast patrol boats to their shores. Using old ships with cell phone towers just outside in international waters (go head and sink one give us a reason to unload on your North Korean Peoples Republic navy and airforce)

Have a lets talk button to central allied command HQ ... show them a horse and pony show of how they are being manipulated into serving a false god.

I could go on and on, but I think time is of the essence, before they can launch a hundred nukes in our direction from mobile launchers like they did those last four (even if they don't all make it).

Time to wake up the public in North Korea and get the North Korean Army army on their side :yep:

[ikalugin]

Tbh I think they would take the chinese path.

[Delgard]

And tarnish the Chinese culture? I think they will be kept in a "zone".

[ikalugin]

I meant in terms of economics development. Currently they apparently already get a strong gray market economy. They just need to solidify that mixed economy the way the Chinese did and it may just work.

[mapuc]

Sorry for digging up this not so old thread. I found an interesting article from NBC. I knew we had a thread about strike on NK

The U.S. is prepared to launch a preemptive strike with conventional weapons against North Korea should officials become convinced that North Korea is about to follow through with a nuclear weapons test, multiple senior U.S. intelligence officials told NBC News

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-may-launch-strike-if-north-korea-reaches-nuclear-n746366

Markus

[Delgard]

The gray market economy is very, very vague. It makes the news because it is surprising. Why not permit them, though? They have no influence on anything. Looking at what pictures are available, posted by travelers, they are rather insignificant.

I noticed today's MOAB in Afghanistan. Sure it was a message, but it also had a practical purpose on the ground. I think if something was done in North Korea, it would also have a practical purpose. The cruise missiles in Syria are another example.

Going back to North Korea, what if the Americans, Japanese and South Koreans saw a missile flying high overhead, while in international waters, and felt threatened and shot it down? Shot them all down. It takes away a testing ability. Just thinking of a message and a practical action joined.

They say that North Korea has a missile submarine. But, it would have to be threatening, I suppose.

Just ideas for the discussion. Off to patrol for a missile sub. :up:

[Buddahaid]

"Wrong thinking is punishable. Right thinking will be as quickly rewarded. You will find it an effective combination." -- The Keeper, from THE CAGE

[em2nought]

It would certainly be an interesting turn of events if China invaded, and then occupied North Korea. Claiming all the while that they did it at our behest.

Would be a great place for them to send their problem Islamic folks in the future. :03:

I don't picture China offering much of a Marshall Plan though. lmao

[ikalugin]

The gray market economy is very, very vague. It makes the news because it is surprising. Why not permit them, though? They have no influence on anything. Looking at what pictures are available, posted by travelers, they are rather insignificant.
Well let me explain. In addition to the markets and small private entities travelers see things like mines are semi private, implying that the market/private sector is significant.

[vienna]

China invading NK and occupying it as a means of defusing the situation is a bit of a nonstarter. First, China has no real desire to expend resources to invade, occupy, and maintain what is, for them, an unprofitable impoverished acquisition; unless they are willing to endure the possibility a protracted period of time with little to no gain and, perhaps, a sort of insurgent situation presented by die-hard NK guerillas, there is little attraction for China. Secondly, if China were to invade NK, even on the aim of trying to defuse Kim and his henchmen, SK is not likely to be calm about fears that maybe China won;t stop at the DMZ and try to get SK in the bargain; it would not be farfetched to consider some rogue SK military elements, believing they were acting in defense of SK, initiating actions that China would, itself, take as unwarranted aggression and respond in kind...

There many variables in the whole Asian situation that need to be considered; there are no simple answers, in particular answers pleasing to all parties...




<O>

[mapuc]

China invading NK !? Maybe China has, as Eddie wrote, no real interest.

Ok what could be prevented if NK's big brother invade his little brothers country

An American strike and thereby probably preventing a revenge attack with either chemical, nuclear or biological from NK against SK and/or JP.
(Kim could still do this)

And most important-preventing a war between USA and China, which is a big possibility if an American strike on NK should develop or continue.

I don't think China is interested in such a thing, invading NK.

The worst case scenario-Kim feel being mocked by Beijing and see no other way than send his A, B and/or C loaded missil against China and perhaps against SK-to get USA involved.

Some thoughts from an amateur who haven't that much knowledge on geopolitics, strategy and other things.

Markus

[Mr Quatro]

The world is not ready yet for a family feud show live on satellite TV showing a million man army crossing over into South Korea which is only 35 miles to Seoul or lobbing sarin gas canister's over the DMZ.

NKPR air force would fall in 20 minutes, the navy in one day and the threat of any nuclear strike would be coming before we could wipe them out.

Not a pleasant picture ... Donald Trump is poker player and a salesman and he will not take that chance of putting one little foot over the line.

North Korea can only be taken out by North Korea from within ... Money talks Bull **** walks

[mapuc]

In Syria Obama draw a red line-If Assad used chemical weapons USA would....didn't do nothing as we have seen

Have Trump done the same regarding NK, drawn a red line-cross this and we will attack your military stuff ? And will Trump give the order-if this line has been crossed ?

Markus

[moose1am]

NK only real trading partner is China and they just refused a shipment of NK coal sent to China. And they are telling the leader of NK to cool it and settle down. They don't want the USA to put Nukes in SK so close to the Chinese Boarder. We have a Carrier Battle Group off the coast of NK ready to shoot down any nuclear armed ballistic missiles that they might launch toward Japan. We have missiles that can intercept they NK missiles.
.

As I pointed out in another topic we abided by the North/South nuke free zone agreement many years ago and removed our nuclear weapons in the early nineties. Since that time the only one flexing muscle, making threats, developing and testing nuclear weapons and delivery systems is the DPRK. I think what Tillerson said was more for China's ear to hear to help set the tone for his visit with them, than an immediate threat of war with North Korea.


we have allowed them to kill off thoughtful and intelligent discussion. All hail the party, toe the line and long live the divide!

[moose1am]

Thank you, that was his name.

At the same time the author created this thread I made a discussion about the same on my FB-wall. There I wrote USA will not do anything without having discussed this with China and furthermore,
for the first time a Seal Team is a part of this upcoming exercise, what this mean I can't tell, someone mentioned that their job was to "cut of the snakes head"(my words) in NK
I wonder if China would approve this, ´cause its unthinkable that USA would take should steps against NK without having discussed this with China

Markus

The Leader of China just finished having dinner with President Trump in Florida USA. After this meeting the Chinese turned back a shipment of NK coal that they intended to sell to China. With China being the main trading partner with NK it seems that China can persuade the leader of NK to cool his jets a bit. The NK Leader can talk his BS all he wants but he knows better to launch into a major war with the USA.

[moose1am]

In Syria Obama draw a red line-If Assad used chemical weapons USA would....didn't do nothing as we have seen

Have Trump done the same regarding NK, drawn a red line-cross this and we will attack your military stuff ? And will Trump give the order-if this line has been crossed ?

Markus

Actually Obama got Russia to get rid of the Chemical Weapons in Syria for the most part. They didn't use anymore chemical weapons until after Obama left office. They must have brought them back into Syria after Trump became president!.


Obama was not a war hawk but he kept us safe and I'm still alive today.

I'm not sure we will survive Trump's Presidency and he had not been in office 100 days yet.

I pray that we don't get into WWIII and have a nuclear holocaust.

With that said Trump has spent 59 X 1.2 million each to take out a few buildings on a runway that the Syrians/Russians were using again the next day to attack the same city that they attacked before the Tomahawk attack. So the runway was not destroyed and the planes were not all destroyed because Trump told the Russians about the Attack before hand. Duh. Talk about telegraphing your intentions. Flip flop!.

I doubt that the US Navy will try to send in a Seal Team into NK to take out it's leader. NK is not Pakistan. We have been at war with NK since the 1950's and there war was never over. It's just a very fragile cease fire agreement now. It' could get hot any minute again.

Let's be realistic here. NK has Nuclear Weapons now and they probably have the ability to launch them at Japan, Guam or maybe even the USA Main land. Will they do that? I highly think not. The leader of NK is not that damn stupid. And if he is then we would take him out with someone more powerful than seal team six. More likely we will have China Pressure the NK leader to settle down or they won't trade with him anymore. They really don't need him as much as he needs China.

[STEED]

Old lady at the bus stop..

We should send the best crack troops into Korea (meaning North Korea) grab that fat lad pull his pants down and smack his @%$£ (backside) raw.

She made me laugh. :)

[Platapus]

We need to start ratcheting down the rhetoric concerning North Korea.

Kim will use his nuclear weapons if he feels that either North Korea is about to be invaded or his control of North Korea is about to end.

He is contained. He has no capability of moving into China and the US is preventing any chance of him moving into South Korea. As long as the US can keep South Korea on a short leash, everything will keep on keeping on.

But if we continue poking him like little brother does to a big brother "does this bother you?" "I am not touching you!", like an irritated big brother, eventually Kim will snap.

The best thing the US can do is ignore Kim. Treat him like a kid having a tantrum.

That's the decision the US needs to make. What role should we play concerning Kim?

1. A parent who while disappointed and often irritated, still is the mature one in the room

2. Kim's little brother who is more interested in scoring emotional points by messing with him. "Does my carrier group bother you?"

Personally, I much prefer option 1.

Unfortunately, Trump tends to operate in the option 2 realm.

Could you imagine Kim and Trump in the same room? Yikes!!

[vienna]

So...

Has she been offered a position as a Trump strategic advisor yet?...




<O>

[Onkel Neal]

We need to start ratcheting down the rhetoric concerning North Korea.

Kim will use his nuclear weapons if he feels that either North Korea is about to be invaded or his control of North Korea is about to end.

He is contained. He has no capability of moving into China and the US is preventing any chance of him moving into South Korea. As long as the US can keep South Korea on a short leash, everything will keep on keeping on.

But if we continue poking him like little brother does to a big brother "does this bother you?" "I am not touching you!", like an irritated big brother, eventually Kim will snap.

The best thing the US can do is ignore Kim. Treat him like a kid having a tantrum.

That's the decision the US needs to make. What role should we play concerning Kim?

1. A parent who while disappointed and often irritated, still is the mature one in the room

2. Kim's little brother who is more interested in scoring emotional points by messing with him. "Does my carrier group bother you?"

Personally, I much prefer option 1.

Unfortunately, Trump tends to operate in the option 2 realm.

Could you imagine Kim and Trump in the same room? Yikes!!

Usually I find I agree with you on many topics but definitely not this. A dictator state developing ballistic missiles and nuclear weapons cannot be ignored like a little brother, that's not even a good analogy.

The best thing the US can do is get China off its ass and together get this regime wiped out and free 25 million people from this tyranny and oppression. It's unacceptable to stand by and watch these people suffer.

[Delgard]

This has got my news searching into a higher gear. Thank-you.

There is not much that can be done that isn't ratcheting on the issue of missiles, nukes, and chemicals by North Korea.

South Korea and Japan, as targets, sit poorly defended in the ring as two fighters jump about for wants of something. The South Korean economy, much for social and political reasons, has slowed their military development and made it less capable of handling North Korean missiles. And, the next elected president will most likely take a less conservative path by wanting to use diplomacy and to put increased funding into social programs. That being said, their need for American leadership and military defenses have increased.

Japan, only in the last year or so, has made some political changes to move away from defense-only capabilities; much of it brought on by China's pushing outward to the east and southeast for influence and control.

Back in 2013 & 2014, while negotiations and implementations were occurring, it was strongly suspected that Libya hid chemical weapons. (just a note)

Coming back to North Korea, they ARE developing their missiles ranges, mobile launch capabilities from hidden sites, submarine launch abilities, and nuclear warhead development even towards a thermonuclear bomb. And, that capability, along with numbers grows. Easily, they are projected to be the next country to use a nuclear-based weapon.

China has their "elections" process coming up this fall and that plays a role, too. They really don't want a North Korea issue, especially this year. As they relate to North Korea, there are black and grey markets along the Chinese side of the border. They do provide jobs, permit factories to operate at very low North Korean wages and their is minimal crime. China does not want to be a target, either. If North Korea collapses, their is belief that China will just move in 20-30 kilometers and establish a security zone. That does not cost the same as having to rebuild an entire country.

Looking back to the independence of eastern European countries, they were in much, much better shape and should not be held in comparison. North Korea is bad off in many ways and whomever has to redevelop it, needs a lot of help over several generations of time.

Each country in the area has their own wants and needs. Kind of a shame that humans are involved.

"Chief of the Watch, take the boat to 200 feet. It will be safer, I hope" :arrgh!:

[Jimbuna]

I'm thinking this tyrannical dictator would prove almost impossible to control so an agreement between the USA and China on a way forward, militarily or otherwise may be the best option, otherwise the fat boy could well spark a major war.

[Delgard]

I'm thinking this tyrannical dictator would prove almost impossible to control so an agreement between the USA and China on a way forward, militarily or otherwise may be the best option, otherwise the fat boy could well spark a major war.

Yes, but China has reasons not to want to be that involved. Getting them to support sanctions is difficult.

But, the Alliance (USA, Japan, and S. Korea) does need ballistic missile defense upgrades...quickly. Seems a good first step, but I am not sure the South Koreans will even want that after this election. The North Koreans already made a threats about South Korea having THAAD.

[Jimbuna]

Well, giving in to threats can often mean you deserve the consequences.

[ikalugin]

The best thing the US can do is get China off its ass and together get this regime wiped out and free 25 million people from this tyranny and oppression. It's unacceptable to stand by and watch these people suffer. Past experience shows that it doesnt work that way, it shows that intervention leads to war and even more misery.

I'm thinking this tyrannical dictator would prove almost impossible to control so an agreement between the USA and China on a way forward, militarily or otherwise may be the best option, otherwise the fat boy could well spark a major war.
DPRK is developing nuclear weapons and assosiated delivery systems as a deterent from 3rd parties intervening in their internal affairs. Thus agressive rhetoric justifies for them their efforts. Ironic, I know, how pressure could push DPRK to accelerate their programs.

[Platapus]

Well, giving in to threats can often mean you deserve the consequences.

Where are the threats coming from?

I read more threats coming from the US against NK than I read coming from NK against the US.

Most of the threats coming from NK seem to be defensive in nature "if you attack us we will defend", as opposed to offensive "If you don't stop building missiles, we will attack you"

We just need to make sure that we are not making the situation more perilous in our zeal.

This is a time for restrain strategy, not emotional reaction.

I oft say beware of old men eager to send young men to war. I need to amend that with "beware of draft dodgers eager to send young men to war too."

Trump talks mighty tough with other people's lives.

[Rockstar]

Granted its a dangerous game but I suspect we wouldnt be stepping up the rhetoric if we couldn't back it up.

I say call his bluff, lets see his hand. Go ahead fat boy make my day lets see what ya got.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/FTM-14_logo.jpg

[Delgard]

I understood the threat was from North Korea.

KJU continually speaks of reuniting the Korean "peoples" under his leadership. More and more missiles takes away South Korea's ability to defend against them.

A news report out of Japan says that North Korea will use chem weapons first to create panic and, then, a lot of artillery to squash military targets.

The threat of North Korea artillery, and instability, has promoted the move of the American forces to South of Seoul.

AND, then there is China pushing to the east to control all of the waters, islands, and passageways that its warships need to get to the Pacific. They say 90% of the world's shipping trade go through those waters.

With the Artic ice receding along Russia's north coast, another passage is opening up for shipping to get from the Atlantic to the Pacific. But, that has not fully developed and I imagine the Russians will control that.

Then their is the Black Sea, Gulf of Aden, and the Mediterranean issues...(sigh)

Rockstar...The Japanese and the Koreans are the ones stressing.

[mapuc]

South Korean official says North Korea have conducted missile test, that have failed , a day after the country's birthday.

Now it will be interesting to see and hear what the response will be from USA, SK and JP.

Markus

[Rockstar]

looks like fat boy folded. guess we'll take our toys and go home. Unless there's something going on inside DPRK we dont know about. hmmmm.

[Reinhard Hardegen]

http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy99/ttrivett/Stuff/10354875_10203258075121214_4452620770491568222_n_z psiftgy1kt.jpg

[Buddahaid]

Call me naive, I don't care, but I have a hard time seeing China just letting DPRK run wanton in their backyard. It does serve some purpose but not at the risk of a real war, and having a buffer state between the big boys does serve, or has served, to prevent direct involvement.

Tell me what China gains by letting the DPRK continue along it's current path?

[Von Due]

Call me naive, I don't care, but I have a hard time seeing China just letting DPRK run wanton in their backyard. It does serve some purpose but not at the risk of a real war, and having a buffer state between the big boys does serve, or has served, to prevent direct involvement.

Tell me what China gains by letting the DPRK continue along it's current path?

Gain: Not having to break the pact the two made about mutual, eternal friendship and military support, an eternal pact up for reconsiderations around 2021.

Other than that, Dim Kim is unwise to ignore the possibility that there are military plans for decomissioning renegade allied, stored in a file cabinet somewhere in a Beijing basement.

[Delgard]

I would think there are gains and losses. Just some cheap labor, maybe not having South Korea on their border. They don't have to support XX million refugees that have minimal education, health, etc.

What does China lose...??

[Delgard]

(Yonhap Interview) NK defector-painter

By Kim Soo-yeon

SEOUL, April 16 (Yonhap) -- North Korean defector-artist Oh Sung-cheol drew colorful propaganda posters praising former North Korean dictator Kim Jong-il in the mid-1990s for a decade while serving in the repressive regime's military.

In North Korea, painting such posters did not require artistic creativity much as he followed instructions by the ruling Workers' Party of Korea in a country where artwork is used for propaganda campaigns for the leadership.

"I was not an artist in North Korea as I drew what I was ordered," the 39-year-old painter said in a recent interview with Yonhap News Agency. "I did not have an experience of doing soul searching in the North."

Oh is among a handful of North Korean defector-painters who are seeking to portray their experience on both sides of the tense inter-Korean border and thoughts about the North Korean regime.

He said in North Korea, he did not have the luxury of thinking about what his dream would be, never realizing that drawing pictures would become his life-long mission for soul searching.

Strong aspiration for painting came at the height of hardship when he had to live in a dim basement at a South Korean consulate in China while awaiting a flight to Seoul for three years after escaping North Korea. He came to South Korea in 2012.

"I would have died if I had not drawn pictures at that time," Oh said. "I did not belong to any of the two Koreas. My biggest wish was to walk on grass (freely) back then."

The two Koreas have technically remained in a state of war since the 1950-53 Korean War ended in a truce, not a peace treaty.

In South Korea, Oh is working as a painter after studying fine arts in Hannam University in Daejeon, some 164 kilometers south of Seoul. But life as an artist here is not as easy as he previously expected, he said.

"I had the experience of being hurt in South and North Korea. I would like to ask questions to people about how wounds could be healed through my work," he said.

His quest for what life should be is illustrated as an image of spoon in his artwork. A spoon is the main tool needed to feed oneself, symbolizing human beings' basic desire, he says.

Depending on what is being placed on the spoon, values which an individual puts priority on differ, he added. A crooked spoon means people's greed for power and money.

"Where does human beings' desire come from? I think that how desire is expressed boils down to a matter of making a living," he said.

Oh's work "Throw and Ask" shows a spoon on top of a collection of images of the Rodong Sinmun, North Korea's main newspaper. Pink butterflies coming out of the spoon represent hope and ideals.

"Rodong Sinmun epitomizes the tyranny of North Korea. But I think ideology and the political system pale in comparison to the issue of bread and butter," he said. "People would say they seek happiness and freedom when asked about their ideal values."

Oh said that he would like to send a message of co-existence through paintings at a time when internal division and discord are also running deep in South Korea.

"Drawing propaganda posters speaks for North Korea's leadership. Here, I don't want to repeat such a job that aims to represent a certain group," he said. "I would like to talk about co-existence by excluding ideology and the political spectrum."

Touching on inter-Korean unification, he called for efforts to embrace North Korean defectors as members of society.

"There is no sincere discussion about how North Korean defectors see South Korean society," he said. "The two Koreas should be unified someday. I believe more South Koreans could accept them as main players for unification."

The artist said he rejected an "assigned" identity of being a North Korean defector, expressing hope that his works could be recognized as they are without the social stigma of defector being attached. "I think that drawing pictures is a process of healing my wounds," he said. "I would like to throw questions to people to encourage them to think about what values they should pursue."


---It popped up on a newsfeed. Yonhap is like the Associated Press that we know of.

[Jimbuna]

I see it is being reported that “Fatty Kim the Third” tried and failed with a missile launch soon after Trump gave the order for a Carrier Battle Group to the South Korea area.

N Korea missile launch fails day after military parade

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-39612095

Reminds me of this oldie :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1ExEwjb1xE

[ikalugin]

You shouldn't laugh at them just because allegedly failed launch coincided with high tensions, space boosters (and thus ICBMs) are 60s tech, DPRK has it.

[Von Due]

A laughing matter it is not but it is difficult not to take to satire when NK official history includes passages on how the Greatest of Kims hit bulls eye with a heavy machine gun at the age of 7, before he invented the world's first hamburger while personally moving the moon across the skies. It is understandable that claims of having very long range ICBMs are met with suspicion of exaggerations.

At the same time, it is nothing new that "leaked" info on happenings in NK has occationally been fabricated in the south. Something to bear in mind.

[ikalugin]

A laughing matter it is not but it is difficult not to take to satire when NK official history includes passages on how the Greatest of Kims hit bulls eye with a heavy machine gun at the age of 7, before he invented the world's first hamburger while personally moving the moon across the skies. It is understandable that claims of having very long range ICBMs are met with suspicion of exaggerations.

At the same time, it is nothing new that "leaked" info on happenings in NK has occationally been fabricated in the south. Something to bear in mind.
If they have the ability to reach low earth orbit - they have the ICBM technology.

That ability can be independently verified by observing the space launches and their payloads in orbit.

If memory serves me right there were 2 such launches in the past.

Those two launches prove that DPRK has ICBM technology. As I have said that technology is nothing surprising, USSR and USA got it in 50s/60s. Any dedicated actor, especially if such actor has resources to procure 60s missile tech (ie R27 series SLBMs) is capable of doing it.

[Platapus]

Launching is one important part of an ICBM system. Landing, or in the case of an ICBM targeting, is also important.
If all you want to do is leave one part of the earth and hit anywhere else on the earth, ICBMs are pretty easy.

But if you want to hit something specific...that's a bit more difficult.

Even with nukes, you gotta get close.

[ikalugin]

Hitting cities with city busters is not hard.

And I doubt DPRK is interested in anything other than counter-value.

The question really is - did they master implosive fissile bombs yet or not. Especially in terms of manufacturing relevant materials

[vienna]

Funny line on the SNL "news" report: "Hours ago, North Korea attempted a missile launch, but as soon as it took off, it immediately exploded. North Korea claimed the failed launch was actually just a tribute to Donald Trump's first 100 days in office."...



<O>

[Delgard]

Just from my military career, I don't know that I would use nukes specifically on cities in S. Korea. Unless I just wanted to make a mess of things and never go there. I could see KJU making that decision just before he died, though.

Initial targets would be logistical hubs for in-coming support or just significant bases as they are. With a thought towards KJU's thinking on WMD, I could see semi-persistent chem attacks to significantly degrade capabilities. An air-burst nuke for the EMP effect would do well over Seoul and some places in Japan would be also helpful.

EMP, to my knowledge, is hard to protect from. It requires redundancy and other measures that suck up a budget pretty quickly. I just read a news article that S. Korea's nuke plants are not protected from outside blasts, too.

Even though these may be good ideas for a future event, I don't see China permitting it to get to that point. Not that I see N. Korea really listening to China very much, but, China hasn't come close to squeezing N. Korea. Actually, that is not the easiest thing to do in a controlled way. China has ZERO interest in going into N. Korea or having N. Korea mad at them, too.

Lots of stuff on YouTube it seems. Lots of cyber stuff, too.

[mapuc]

I'm convinced, that during the Meeting between Trump and the leader of China. Trump may have said something like.

North Korea is your little brother living in your backyard-Countries around NK are not happy about the way Kim is acting. I Don't want to smack Kim or start a war with NK-I therefore ask you to take care of Kim in a way you find fit.

Or do I have to much imagination ?

Markus

[Delgard]

I'm convinced, that during the Meeting between Trump and the leader of China. Trump may have said something like.

North Korea is your little brother living in your backyard-Countries around NK are not happy about the way Kim is acting. I Don't want to smack Kim or start a war with NK-I therefore ask you to take care of Kim in a way you find fit.

Or do I have to much imagination ?

Markus

No, I think you are on the button. Being in China's shoes, I wouldn't want missiles pointed at me, though. There are just no benefits for China in getting involved, that I see anyway.

Edit...I don't know if it is a "smackable" situation. I see crush or no crush and that means a lot of refugees and costs.

[Rockstar]

I'm convinced, that during the Meeting between Trump and the leader of China. Trump may have said something like.

North Korea is your little brother living in your backyard-Countries around NK are not happy about the way Kim is acting. I Don't want to smack Kim or start a war with NK-I therefore ask you to take care of Kim in a way you find fit.

Or do I have to much imagination ?

Markus

Difficult to say what was discussed. Maybe we let China know our intentions were to shoot down the rocket had it left the pad. Which may have very well escalated things quite quickly hence their own mobilization of troops to North Korea's border.

I should add I still think China's mobilization of troops has more to do with preventing mass exodus of N.K. refugees than it does invasion. Like a Jonny Carson commercial break there's "more to come"

[Delgard]

Prudent to move the troops to the border. Maybe someone will report on what they are actually doing on the border. Nice to see if they disperse along the border or stay together. Also, if facilities are available or expected to be built. Just their whole situation.

The news is a little easier to follow in the western countries in the area, but China is more controlled.

Philippines just mentioned the Mutual Defense Treaty with the U.S. Probably to help them get their laborers out of Japan and Korea. (sigh)

Someone mentioned that having two aircraft carriers in the area (G. Washington and C. Vinson) was about to happen. I thought the GW was laid up until May. By the time she puts to sea, the CV will be close to rotating. Or, to stay would mean something. Maybe it will become the norm to have two.

[mapuc]

Chinese soldiers at the North Korean and Chinese border !?

Three scenarios popped up in my head

1. China and USA have during their meeting made some kind of deal regarding NK-Maybe China are to invade NK down to and the capital and the rest is below that line is for...

2. China know USA is going to strike NK and that would mean that it could turn into a regional war and thereby sending millions of citizens from NK towards China and to preventing them to run into China they have positioned soldiers there.

3. China are well aware that USA is going to hit NK's military installation and thereby sending the area into a war, and as NK's big brother they will send troops into NK to stand side by side with their brothers in the fight against USA, SK and perhaps JP.

Or the could be a fourth scenario which I haven't been thinking of.

Markus

[Rockstar]

I suppose anything is possible. But to suddenly out of the blue start a major conflict with China makes absolutely no sense. I think the focus of both parties are on getting rid of fat boy. That's my guesss.

[Delgard]

Yes, that is why I wondered if the forces would stay massed in one area at the border (attack position) or they would spread out to augment the border guard units (defense position).

I am not quit sure what the U.S. would do a s far as an attack.

Am hearing about the Chinese and Russian AGI ships rushing to the area. There was news about them 3-4 weeks ago when the C. Vinson showed up. Wooptie-do.

Speaking of the AGI (Navy), how many subs do the Chinese have a sea?

[Von Due]

Not much info on what China is up to but some thoughts in this article
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2017/04/170415110614281.html

on the author of the above article, for reference
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvatore_Babones

[ikalugin]

Even Russia alerted some of Ground Forces units in the Far East and moved the Slava class cruiser out of the ROK just in case.

[Gargamel]

Geez guys... I was just wondering if the f-35 was operational yet or not.

[Delgard]

Not many F35s are around. Japan is just starting to get them. So they have little experience. Korea wants them but the budget keeps getting in the way.

The F35 really excels at inter-connectivity to support battlefield management. Neither country is up on that.

But the Americans will save us!

[mapuc]

Geez guys... I was just wondering if the f-35 was operational yet or not.

Sorry for having derailed your thread a little.

If there will, as the title of the thread said. a Strike on North Korea it will at first hand be with TLAM(Tomahawk) and B2 Bombers. Any use of the new F-35 will if this strike would make NK furious and hit back and thereby escalating everything. Or they will be used in a second strike, if there are to be more than one strike on NK.

Markus

[Platapus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-JA1ffd5Ms

[Jimbuna]

I suppose anything is possible. But to suddenly out of the blue start a major conflict with China makes absolutely no sense. I think the focus of both parties are on getting rid of fat boy. That's my guesss.

On that we can both agree.

[THE_MASK]

How would it be in a few years time , if in the back of your mind 24/7 365 days a year wondering if Kim will ever press the nuke button . Kim has to go and the sooner the better .

[Onkel Neal]

Agreed. We knew where he was during that stupid parade, we should have sent in a Tomahawk and knocked him out right then.

[Reece]

https://ironvan.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/359344-funny-images-on-leader-kim-jong-un.jpg

[Nippelspanner]

Agreed. We knew where he was during that stupid parade, we should have sent in a Tomahawk and knocked him out right then.

Serious suggestion?

[Onkel Neal]

Yes, why not? Do we always have to follow the rules? Tell South Korea to get ready and then take him out and lets see what happens next. Ooooh, it might start a war! Yeah, well its coming anyway.

[Nippelspanner]

Yes, because America is usually following rules... /s

I'm no fan of fatty, but what you suggested would cause quite some collateral damage, legal things aside.
But no worries, your president doesn't care about these irrelevant annoyances either.
Bombs away!

Because we all can be sure NK won't launch retaliation attacks after a missile blew up their leader... Right?
It's called diplomacy, might consider it before going Gung-ho on a country with unknown nuclear capabilities...

[ikalugin]

US ABM would probably protect CONUS.

[mapuc]

Yes, because America is usually following rules... /s

I'm no fan of fatty, but what you suggested would cause quite some collateral damage, legal things aside.
But no worries, your president doesn't care about these irrelevant annoyances either.
Bombs away!

Because we all can be sure NK won't launch retaliation attacks after a missile blew up their leader... Right?
It's called diplomacy, might consider it before going Gung-ho on a country with unknown nuclear capabilities...

Some expert on Swedish TV said that Kim was kind of "we really don't know how he is today or tomorrow" and we don't know how he would react if USA made such a strike on his military installations and installation that have to do with NK's nuclear facilities.

Maybe we will be witness to an huge increase of Verbale Rhetoric from
Kim & Co threating all and everyone after such a strike. Maybe he throw almost everything he as against South Korea, Chemical, Biological and other stuff.

An another expert(military), this time on Danish TV. said a while ago. If NK want to drop an atomic bomb on Seoul the have to take it on a bomberplane, the same way USA did, when they dropped their two bombs on Japan. NK does not have to knowledge to fit a big boy or more than one into the top of a missile or an ICBM- They have the knowledge on medium and shortrange missile.

Of course theory and real life is two different things.

Markus

[Oberon]

US ABM would probably protect CONUS.

*sigh*

Right, let's clear some things up. I've been on a research binge on North Korea and their abilities and non-abilities over the past two to three weeks and the following things have become increasingly clear.
1. Any military action against North Korea will cause them to launch their nuclear missiles. They have no way to tell if US missiles are aiming to decapitate the Kim regime or just hit their nuclear launch abilities, either way they will launch on warning, or launch on dead-hand. They have short range and medium range ballistic missiles, as well as submarine launched ballistic missiles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pukkuksong-1). These give them opportunities to get around the South Korean based THAAD system by either launching from the sea behind the THAADs radar and intercept radius, or by lofting the missiles on a sharp trajectory from closer to the border (http://allthingsnuclear.org/dwright/north-koreas-february-missile-launch) so that their re-entry speed is higher than the THAAD system can intercept.
2. There are no guarantees that the AEGIS ships and systems in the region can intercept all of the missiles, North Korea has practiced salvo firing ballistic missiles (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-missiles-idUSKBN16C0YU) in order to flood the missile defence programs software with targets, much in the same way the Soviets planned to flood the carrier group with nuclear tipped ASMs from Oscar IIs and Tu-22Ms.
3. AEGIS warships cannot intercept ICBMs. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegis_Ballistic_Missile_Defense_System)
4. The ICBM interceptor for the US is the Ground-Based Midcourse Defence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-Based_Midcourse_Defense) system in Alaska. It can handle a small amount of missiles. Currently there is no knowledge of how many ICBMs North Korea has, nor of their actual ability to get off the ground. Any interceptors launched from Alaska will either hit the target, or crash into Russia.
5. Estimates of North Koreas nuclear arsenal start at around 20. Reports indicate that North Korea has enough Lithium-6 to sell excess through shell companies in China. Therefore it's likely that the number is higher than 20.
6. The DPRK also has biological (https://fas.org/nuke/guide/dprk/bw/) and chemical (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction#Biolog ical_and_chemical_weapons) weaponry.
7. The DPRK has more than 1000 missiles (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17399847) of varying ranges.
8. The PRC will not support US military action in North Korea (http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1042957.shtml).


So, what can we conclude from this?

That any military attack on North Korea will almost inevitably lead to the firing of most, if not all, of their missile stockpile at targets ranging from South Korea, Japan, Guam and potentially the United States, even if the ICBMs are untested. Since the majority of the missiles are road mobile it will be very hard for the US and its allies to hit all of the missiles at once, which means that some missiles will survive the initial strike and as soon as they realise what is happening they will launch on their pre-defined targets. Nuclear explosions will consume targets in South Korea, Japan and Guam, potentially missiles will also launch towards the continental United States. Depending on how many missiles are launched at the US and the destination of those missiles will depend on whether the GBMD system in Alaska can intercept them. There are forty missiles at Fort Greenly, which will be salvo fired at each incoming ICBM, once those forty missiles are fired, America is defenceless against incoming ICBMs. It's also questionable that the system can defend the US against ICBMs heading for the East Coast.
Furthermore any military action from the United States against North Korea may in turn provoke a response from the Peoples Republic of China. Whilst I think they will be loathe to defend the DPRK after it has nuked most of South-East Asia, they will equally be incredibly loathe to see the DPRK removed and the buffer zone between American backed South Korea and the PRC border removed. Not to mention the potential for hordes of North Korea refugees heading across the border and destroying the PRCs economy. So if the US and the ROK (what's left of it) cross the 38th parallel and head north, expect China to head south...in force. China has more ICBMs and nuclear warheads than the DPRK, not to mention a hell of a lot more soldiers and better equipment. If the PRC enters the war on the Korean peninsula against the US and allies, the US and allies cannot win without going MacArthur, which will then escalate into the whole-sale destruction of the PRC and the United States.

So, war against the DPRK now or in the future is not a feasible prospect without significant casualties, and if the US public cannot handle the few casualties it has taken in Iraq and Afghanistan over the past decade and a half, it sure as hell won't handle the casualties it will take from the continuation of the Korean war.

Right, that's my info dump, do with it what you will. I'm out of here again. :salute:

[Onkel Neal]

Out of here? Why? You working for the railroad now? :)

Anyway, no one really knows what works happen. Take out Kim and there is an equally likely scenario where the NK backup leadership throws up the white flag and says Thanks!

[Bilge_Rat]

Nice to see you Oberon, I thought you were dead....:ping:

I tend to agree. You had the same issue with Iran. When the USA and Israel were looking into dealing with Iran's nuclear program militarily, they seem to have reached the same conclusion.

Most of Iran's research facility were spread out around the country, some in cities, some in deep underground facilities.

Even with a massive strike, there was no guarantee you could take out the entire program without using tactical Nukes and/or minimizing civilian casualties.

Even if the strike worked, the most likely result would only be to delay the program by 5-10 years.

I would think the same analysis applies to North Korea.

[mapuc]

@ Oberon I found your information very informativ. I had some thoughts while reading it.

Hmm wonder who's right. Oberon and the source he has used or this Danish expert on military who said NK isn't/wasn't capable to put nukes on a missile.

Maybe Neal is right, maybe the political and military infrastructure would fall like a cardhouse - No one know.

And that is why I'm almost 99 % sure that Trump have asked China to deal with NK, cause he and his staff have been thinking about this and possible scenarios after an American strike on NK.

Markus

[ikalugin]

Oberon we mostly agree. The points we disagree on:
- DPRK's offensive capability and it's survivability.
- the ability of US to conduct a counter force strike.
- the ability of US to intercept the retahilation strike.

Considering how Russia believes that US is working on achieving a valid first strike capability against Russia, DPRK, with it's smaller offensive arsenal and essentially non existant EW (70s grade tech with few PRC operated exceptions, mane capabilities are non existant) and strategic air defenses (which are 70s-early 80s vintage), would be much more vulnerable to the US first strike and, considering both it's small (compared to Russia) size and quality (ie countermeasures wise) we believe that US would be able to intercept what is left of it.

However it does come from the point of view of Russian deterent and thus that view may be generous regarding US capabilities to stay on the safe side.

[Platapus]

Agreed. We knew where he was during that stupid parade, we should have sent in a Tomahawk and knocked him out right then.

Assassinating the head of state of a sovereign country without being in a state of war?

That's not the United States I fought for. :nope:

[THE_MASK]

Assassinating the head of state of a sovereign country without being in a state of war?

That's not the United States I fought for. :nope:The threat of Nuclear Bombs has to override everything imo .

[Onkel Neal]

Assassinating the head of state of a sovereign country without being in a state of war?

That's not the United States I fought for. :nope:

He's not a legitimate head of state and NK is not a sovereign country. He's a psychotic dictator and NK is a region of oppressed slaves.

[Dowly]

Yes, why not? Do we always have to follow the rules? Tell South Korea to get ready and then take him out and lets see what happens next. Ooooh, it might start a war! Yeah, well its coming anyway.

Would you say the same, if it was your soil potentially under attactk?

[Nippelspanner]

He's not a legitimate head of state and NK is not a sovereign country. He's a psychotic dictator and NK is a region of oppressed slaves.
Funny, by that vigilante-logic, we could almost say the same about many other countries..... The USA for example. :p

Now of course, KJU deserves a Tomahawk or two, but that's just not how it works.

[ikalugin]

He's not a legitimate head of state and NK is not a sovereign country. He's a psychotic dictator and NK is a region of oppressed slaves.
Slippery slope.

No wonder they want nuclear weapons to preclude 3rd party interference.

[em2nought]

Can North Korean missiles reach California if they work? :D It would be just terrible if they could, last thing we would ever want next to being thrown in a briar patch. :03:

[THE_MASK]

Agreed. We knew where he was during that stupid parade, we should have sent in a Tomahawk and knocked him out right then.I reckon your just taking the piss but anything is possible now with Trump in charge of the world . Trump might have had the same thought .

[Onkel Neal]

Funny, by that vigilante-logic, we could almost say the same about many other countries..... The USA for example. :p

Now of course, KJU deserves a Tomahawk or two, but that's just not how it works.

Sure, that's why all the oppressed Americans are on the internet, where are the North Koreans?

[Rockstar]

Funny, by that vigilante-logic, we could almost say the same about many other countries..... The USA for example. :p

Now of course, KJU deserves a Tomahawk or two, but that's just not how it works.


The U.S. doesnt even in any way form or fashion come close to being like the DPRK. But you can thank the Russians and Chinese for this abomination they created that we call North Korea. After reading the document below I'm of the opinion the whole northern peninsula needs to be reset and quite frankly a Tomahawk or two isnt gonna be enough. As usual the U.S. will have to eventually clean up someones elses mess AGAIN and somehow we'll get blamed for it.

Summary
The present document contains the detailed findings of the commission of inquiry on human rights in the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea. The Commission’s principal findings and recommendations are provided in document A/HRC/25/63."

https://documents-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/G14/108/71/PDF/G1410871.pdf?OpenElement



.

[Von Due]

Gents, please.

"We have more internet than them so

We
Are
Right".

"Human rights", peace, freedom and democracy. Straw arguements. Really, that really is all that has ever been. Arguements void of actual meaning constructed for one purpose and one purpose alone: Stir up emotions and support for the real idea:

We
Are
Right.

Is freedom the right to have a foreign power decide who should run the store? Before you think the US never made such a decision, two words: Central America. Two more words: South America. For starters. Human rights have never, ever, been an actual topic when politics for dominance is discussed and that discussion is absolutely dab at the core of it for China, Russia and the US. Human rights is the straw arguement, the card to play, strictly for the PR guys gathering support among the public.

To say Dim Phat Kim is not the legitimate leader is silly. There is no universal rule book on who gets to rule. Guns make right and there you have your human rights in bloody bits across the fields. This is how countries have formed and leaders have appeared, with the help of swords and guns and no approval from those who lost what they used to have. NK, China, US of A, the UK, Norway, Russia, Germany, France, Italy, countries in post colonial Africa, all countries period.

How much more of the internet we have access to, "human rights", "I don't like him", none of that should ever mean

We
Are
Right.

If those ideas should be considered legitimate reasons for breaking the truce, then you just opened a big, ugly can of worms and those worms you can't easily put back in. You have then given _any_ foreign power the arguement _they_ need to launch an attack against any nation they would like to "deal with". This can of worms is truly nasty.

As for "we always get the blame", complete that sentence. "We always get the blame for nasty business we chose to get involved in". The victim card: Never leave house without a deck of victim cards.

PS: Personal opinion: NK leadership has more in common with crime syndicates when you look at what the State is involved in. A good enough reason to attack? Nope. Show me a state that has the innocence of a newborn angel kitty first for starters.

[ikalugin]

Sure, that's why all the oppressed Americans are on the internet, where are the North Koreans?
Remember what happened with Russian users.

The moment Russian users flooded the internet due to the internet becoming cheap and availiable they were labeled as state sponsored trolls.

[vienna]

...and your point is?... :D




<O>

[ikalugin]

...and your point is?... :D
<O>
Well, it may not go as you expect.

When internet became cheap and availiable in Russia, Russian users were just disregarded as state hired trolls for having a different opinion.

Internet sort of creates those bubles of opinion. The only reason why I stay on subsim is because it is very civil.

So maybe if people of DPRK did get internet they would share the same fate - being disregarded as state hired trolls that is.

It does make me wonder though how about how hard it is to get internet access in the DPRK.

[Onkel Neal]

I don't know for fact but what I have read is people in NK do not have access to the web, they cannot join forums like Subsim and express their thoughts. They are living in a madhouse society, where they have no dreams or hope, where they see the world in a distorted way. Their news and education are skewed from reality--the brainwashing starts from the age a child can talk. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/for-north-koreas-kims-its-never-too-soon-to-start-brainwashing/2015/01/15/a23871c6-9a67-11e4-86a3-1b56f64925f6_story.html?utm_term=.e7530511726e)The y have limited freedom to travel in their own "country". Even in the capital, they have limited access to water, they have to fill their bathub once a day and get by on that.

These are real people who do not deserve to live like this, and we in the western world and China go on our merry way, complaining about how many fps our latest PC needs to play Fallout 4. The world should not look the other way. I want to see justice for the dictator who is causing this. Ask anyone if they had the chance to kill Hitler in 1933, etc. Well, it might be better to risk a retaliatory strike from NK now, than in 5 years when they can hit back with nukes.

[Gargamel]

Neal is right, something needs done in NK.

But without China's approval, not much can get done that won't escalate into a very bad situation. But I'm under the belief that China is starting to get fed up with NK's shenanigans and might condone some action, diplomatic or otherwise.

[Von Due]

I would like to see Kim go too but here is the thing:

It's not about human rights, internet (they do have access to a very restricted internet full of propaganda but it's there and outsiders can reach a few sites if they so wish), fresh veggies to all or anything like that. It's about which super power should dominate a united Korea and here is where China and the US are negotiating, China hellbent on not having SK and thus the US dominating, the US hellbent on not having NK and China dominating. Chivalery or rights has no place in those talks. While these talks are going on, the regime in NK laughs all the way to the bank where counterfeit money are produced, where the launderette is full of real money from drug trade, all under the supervision of Room 39.

China supports the crime lord to halt US influence just like the US financed, trained and supported death squads across the Americas in the 70's and 80's to halt Russian influence. Starvation in NK, massacres in sports arenas in Chile, not much difference, is there? None of that worries leaders of nations and if they tell you they do, well they are doing their job by saying they do and indeed doing their job by not caring in the slightest. Expedience above all else.

China is one key and not everything is rosery red between the two, from Kim's anger that he is openly mocked on Chinese social sites with the Chinese state not overly keen on stopping that, to China halting imports and closing airline routes between the 2 countries, signs that China is indeed concerned over whether or not a change is needed. Who they would prefer as replacement is an open question but I wouldn't hold me breath waiting for miracles for the average guy, just like miracles didn't happen in Iraq after the US and the UK installed their puppet: Saddam.

[vienna]

I don't know for fact but what I have read is people in NK do not have access to the web, they cannot join forums like Subsim and express their thoughts. They are living in a madhouse society, where they have no dreams or hope, where they see the world in a distorted way. Their news and education are skewed from reality--the brainwashing starts from the age a child can talk. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/for-north-koreas-kims-its-never-too-soon-to-start-brainwashing/2015/01/15/a23871c6-9a67-11e4-86a3-1b56f64925f6_story.html?utm_term=.e7530511726e)The y have limited freedom to travel in their own "country". Even in the capital, they have limited access to water, they have to fill their bathub once a day and get by on that.

These are real people who do not deserve to live like this, and we in the western world and China go on our merry way, complaining about how many fps our latest PC needs to play Fallout 4. The world should not look the other way. I want to see justice for the dictator who is causing this. Ask anyone if they had the chance to kill Hitler in 1933, etc. Well, it might be better to risk a retaliatory strike from NK now, than in 5 years when they can hit back with nukes.

The big drawback of the Internet as a means of disseminating information to places like NK is the fact the Net relies on fairly easily controlled portals; unlike in earlier decades where the US could use outlets like the VOA to transmit information the leadership of other countries, particularly dictatorships of all stripes, it is easier to 'turn off the tap'.

I would like to see Kim go too but here is the thing:

It's not about human rights, internet (they do have access to a very restricted internet full of propaganda but it's there and outsiders can reach a few sites if they so wish), fresh veggies to all or anything like that. It's about which super power should dominate a united Korea and here is where China and the US are negotiating, China hellbent on not having SK and thus the US dominating, the US hellbent on not having NK and China dominating. Chivalery or rights has no place in those talks. While these talks are going on, the regime in NK laughs all the way to the bank where counterfeit money are produced, where the launderette is full of real money from drug trade, all under the supervision of Room 39.

China supports the crime lord to halt US influence just like the US financed, trained and supported death squads across the Americas in the 70's and 80's to halt Russian influence. Starvation in NK, massacres in sports arenas in Chile, not much difference, is there? None of that worries leaders of nations and if they tell you they do, well they are doing their job by saying they do and indeed doing their job by not caring in the slightest. Expedience above all else.

China is one key and not everything is rosery red between the two, from Kim's anger that he is openly mocked on Chinese social sites with the Chinese state not overly keen on stopping that, to China halting imports and closing airline routes between the 2 countries, signs that China is indeed concerned over whether or not a change is needed. Who they would prefer as replacement is an open question but I wouldn't hold me breath waiting for miracles for the average guy, just like miracles didn't happen in Iraq after the US and the UK installed their puppet: Saddam.

When I was 14 years old, I spent a summer in Central America, in a country ruled by a dictatorial family much like the Kim family rule. The dictatorship had been established and supported by the US under the old "well, he may be an SOB, but he's our SOB" type of logic. The dictator held virtual total control over all aspects of the citizens comings and goings and kept a tight rein on anything that might have threatened the rulers. When we wanted to travel from the capital to an area in the mountains, we found out special written permission had to obtained from the authorities, which in that country was the military, where we had to give our time of departure, route, stops, estimated time of arrival, and details about all the persons involved in the trip and what they were going to carry; note this was not just because we were foreigners, this was SOP for anybody traveling within the borders. There were severe penalties in the form of stiff fines if any of the info was found to be false and, if you should arrive at your destination late and the time difference was considered by the military to be out f the ordinary, you could be arrested and imprisoned; while were were there, we heard of a couple of cases where late arrivers were deemed to have been suspiciously late and were summarily shot by soldiers who suspected the travelers of being possible rebels; one of the cases was reported to have involved children who were shot. Those three months we spent under that country's rule gave me a practical education in how very, very lucky we in the US are to live under our laws; it also gave an education of how truly horrifying US foreign policy can sometimes make life for people in lands where they live under dictators and/or corrupt governments who exist mainly because they are important to "US interests". The people of NK suffer because the existence of Kim is vital to China's interest and, before China, during the Cold War, NK was was under the wing of the USSR. NK was a thorn in China's side until the fall of the USSR and China grudgingly took on the role of "protector" of NK just as a means of keeping SK and their ally, the US from ending up on their border...




<O>

[Nippelspanner]

Sure, that's why all the oppressed Americans are on the internet, where are the North Koreans?
10/10 lol.


They are living in a madhouse society, where they have no dreams or hope, where they see the world in a distorted way. Their news and education are skewed from reality--the brainwashing starts from the age a child can talk.
Are we still talking NK? ;D

Are you, as an American, not living in what could easily be described as a 'madhouse society'? Because that sounds like a perfect description of the US American society to me.

And what do you know about other people's hopes and dreams? I'm sure they have them too - probably just a little different then ours.
How is the western school system and media not skewed from reality?
Some countries allow home schooling, where patents are free to teach their kids that God is great and evolution is nonsense, or where kids are expected to pledge allegiance to a flag - and be alienated, in many cases, if not.

That's not any better from "our eternal leader rides unicorns", same level of nonsense, really.

Our media?
You're the Republican, you tell me how awesome our media is - and what some of us consider legit news sources these days (breitbart, lol).
And all the brainwashing we receive also starts from our earliest days, be it religion, capitalism, the sense for superiority, patriotism and other fanatic points of view.

There are many ways to define freedom and oppression, both terms are open for interpretation.
I'd argue that we westerners are also some kind of slaves and we too live in oppression, partially.
While some of us can and do escape this, the vast majority are nothing but brainwashed slaves to our systems as well.
Are we not? I sure am, to some degree, if I reflect a bit.

Did north Koreans pick the shorter straw?
No doubt they did, but we aren't much better - and if we can arbitrarily claim what leader of whatever nation is ok or not, so can Kim and his gang.

[ikalugin]

These are real people who do not deserve to live like this
Are you willing to pay for improved living conditions in the DPRK out of your own pocket?

[Onkel Neal]

Several sarcastic responses about feeding other countries came to mind but let me just say yes I would. Gladly

[Fubar2Niner]

Several sarcastic responses about feeding other countries came to mind but let me just say yes I would. Gladly

Same could be said here Onkel, and not just feeding. Lets try including medicine etc. Whilst some of those same contries have space programs????? Nuclear programs etc.

I do fear Trumps childlike attitude toward weapon use. Kims is no less childlike.

Many millions of lives at stake, because two tools, think they have the biggest tool.

Best regards.

Fubar

[mapuc]

Have been thinking a bit after having read Oberon's comment in this thread and what this military expert said on Danish TV.

What do we the ordinary people know about NK's military capability to response or revenge a Strike from US military ?

I'm pretty sure that US government and its military knows a whole lot more than I do about what NK have and don't have.

Markus

[ikalugin]

Several sarcastic responses about feeding other countries came to mind but let me just say yes I would. Gladly
Then why don't you?

That would be the difference between real altruistic drive and empty ideological statements.

[Onkel Neal]

Oh, that's mean. How are you so sure my words are empty ideological statements? :) Do my contributions to the Red Cross and United Way count? Altruism is formed by ideological belief.

[ikalugin]

Oh, that's mean. How are you so sure my words are empty ideological statements? :) Do my contributions to the Red Cross and United Way count? Altruism is formed by ideological belief.
let me just say yes I would. Gladly I ain't a native speaker, but your original message implied that you do not conduct such activities at this time.

From this implication I have derived that your statements are empty ideological ones, as they are not supported by action.

As to the ideology - the worst tyrants are those who believe in morality of their tyrany.

[STEED]

North Korean state media warned the United States of a "super-mighty preemptive strike" after U.S. Secretary of State Rex Tillerson said the United States was looking at ways to bring pressure to bear on North Korea over its nuclear programme.http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-northkorea-usa-idUKKBN17L2RB


"In the case of our super-mighty preemptive strike being launched, it will completely and immediately wipe out not only U.S. imperialists' invasion forces in South Korea and its surrounding areas but the U.S. mainland and reduce them to ashes," it said.

Sounds like a threat a over the top threat.

[Reece]

Yes I bet the US is shaking in their boots!!:haha:

[Von Due]

They can, to western ears, sound funnier than a Monty Python or NtNoCN sketch, but there might be more to it
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/12/13/an-intolerable-mockery-the-wild-eyed-worldview-of-north-korean-propaganda/?utm_term=.9f1e3fcfa9f2

[ikalugin]

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/04/20/politics/us-north-korea-china/index.html
Chinese air force land-attack, cruise-missile-capable bombers were put "on high alert"

[vienna]

A "super-mighty preemptive strike"? Maybe we can respond with "super-dooper, Lawd-Amighty, bend-over-and-kiss-it-goodbye" strike... :hmmm:




<O>

[vienna]

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/04/20/politics/us-north-korea-china/index.html
Chinese air force land-attack, cruise-missile-capable bombers were put "on high alert"

There have been reports Russia is moving its own troops to the North Korean border:

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/russia-refuses-deny-troops-amassing-north-korea-border-093208115.html

In other reports Russian officials are flatly denying the reports:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/russia-denies-it-is-moving-troops-close-to-north-korea/2017/04/21/1765996c-267d-11e7-928e-3624539060e8_story.html

Well, given the past track record of Russia (just ask Ukraine), the Russian denials most likely means they are massing troops on NK's border...




<O>

[Skybird]

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/images/first_ts/19660442/2-format10.jpg
source: Der Tagesspiegel, by Stuttmann

[Jimbuna]

North Korea: BBC's look behind the 'last iron curtain'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-39657886

[Aktungbby]

Oh, what the hell...

Let Trump flex his muscles (putting a severe strain on his tiny, tiny hands as he tries to clench his fists) and let him go ahead and initiate military action, create a highly unpredictable crisis, and destabilize yet another region of the world; I mean, it worked so extremely well the last time a POTUS got an inexplicable bug up his lower extremity of his torso and tried to prove his manhood: Trump can even strut out of the White House with a big "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" banner behind him...

What could possibly go wrong?...




<O>
Actually the Bilge has been contacted by the Oval office as our plan has been deemed the only viable method to get close to 'Revered Fatboy' http://i.guim.co.uk/static/w-700/h--/q-95/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/6/16/1402921226116/884be75b-9c75-4b1b-b4d3-7ddf9cd500e2-1020x678.jpeg
Ya never know who's monitoring this forum in the Pentagon or CIA Langley BBY! http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2270386&postcount=844 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2270386&postcount=844) It seems we were not out of line...merely premature.... by two years!:O: https://www.usnews.com/dims4/USNEWS/0e278c7/2147483647/resize/1200x%3E/format/png/quality/85/?url=%2Fcmsmedia%2F9d%2F44%2F28e063af4d209eb59c880 d3647f4%2F20170418edshe-b.tif :k_confused:(slight update to original (2014 (2@014)) post...Include his recently murdered half- brother to the uncle-victim list! As with 'the Donald..."family comes first"??!!:o)

[mapuc]

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/04/20/politics/us-north-korea-china/index.html
Chinese air force land-attack, cruise-missile-capable bombers were put "on high alert"

Many years ago I saw some kind of program in this a Chinese person said We have developed these longrange ASM for one purpose only-When he said this they showed a picture of the Big E.

North Korea does not really have a fleet that would consider to be a real threat to China, from what I know.

So why have China put their bombers on high alert ? Is it to engage the North Korean Navy even though their ordinary navy vessel very well could do this by them self

Or is there an another reason to why China has taken this step.

Markus

[Delgard]

A status check for planning. How many, that are based in range, can actually fly?

As a Chinese targeteer, WMD sites and tels would be first...and repeated.

If N. Korea falls, internally, access to such weapons should not be allowed. I suspect China is seeing the bigger picture.

[mapuc]

A status check for planning. How many, that are based in range, can actually fly?

As a Chinese targeteer, WMD sites and tels would be first...and repeated.

If N. Korea falls, internally, access to such weapons should not be allowed. I suspect China is seeing the bigger picture.

Could very well be the case. I'm a bit confused that a country has to put their bomber divisions on high alert to calculate these things.

Another thing I have forgot to mention in the thread.
When I saw a picture of Trump and the Chinese leader and thereafter having read article about NK and the ongoing crisis, I got this historical Deja vu. The Ribbentrop and Molotov agreement.

Could Trump and the Chinese leader have come to some type of agreement when it comes to NK ??

Markus

[Delgard]

The high alert is just a way to kick Air Force Commanders into gear. Check maintenance, availability of spare parts, status of pilots, get everyone back to base and then to report why that commander has blemishes.

As to an actual mission, maybe not, that was just my conjecture for a future mission.

As to the deal; probably to some degree. Japan is spinning up, so is S. Korea, it seems. Why not China?

Good to be prepared.

[ikalugin]

There have been reports Russia is moving its own troops to the North Korean border:
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/russia-refuses-deny-troops-amassing-north-korea-border-093208115.html
In other reports Russian officials are flatly denying the reports:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/russia-denies-it-is-moving-troops-close-to-north-korea/2017/04/21/1765996c-267d-11e7-928e-3624539060e8_story.html
Well, given the past track record of Russia (just ask Ukraine), the Russian denials most likely means they are massing troops on NK's border...
<O>
There were snap drills in the Far Eastern MD with equipment movement. Such drills include long range transportation to unfammiliar training areas. The snap drills may be related to the crisis, as a measure to increase readiness for contingencies.

It appears that western observers are talking about one such unit returing from the training area. Russia-DPRK border area is fairly narrow.

[vienna]

The "management by confusion" style of the Trump administration seems to have been at full display regarding NK and the Carl Vinson's alleged deployment:

https://www.navytimes.com/articles/carried-away-the-inside-story-of-how-the-carl-vinsons-canceled-port-visit-sparked-a-global-crisis

There are times when I get the same uneasy feeling I got when I was watching the taking of Baghdad in the Iraq War: the White House hadn't really thought out what they were going to do if they actually succeeded; the sight of troops idling about, waiting for not-forthcoming orders was disturbing. There is the same feeling of incertitude surrounding the current situation: no one really seems to know what they are doing and, those who may have a firmer grasp on the situation seem to marginalized by more White House-centered political concerns. Added to this is the fact an astonishing number of critical appointive vacancies at State, DoD, intelligence, and other key departments have yet to be filled (the highest number of any new administration), and one wonders if the US might just find itself in a serious crisis due not to any outside threat, but more due to the ineptitude of our own internal government...




<O>

[MaDef]

The "management by confusion" style of the Trump administration seems to have been at full display regarding NK and the Carl Vinson's alleged deployment:

https://www.navytimes.com/articles/carried-away-the-inside-story-of-how-the-carl-vinsons-canceled-port-visit-sparked-a-global-crisis

There are times when I get the same uneasy feeling I got when I was watching the taking of Baghdad in the Iraq War: the White House hadn't really thought out what they were going to do if they actually succeeded; the sight of troops idling about, waiting for not-forthcoming orders was disturbing. There is the same feeling of incertitude surrounding the current situation: no one really seems to know what they are doing and, those who may have a firmer grasp on the situation seem to marginalized by more White House-centered political concerns. Added to this is the fact an astonishing number of critical appointive vacancies at State, DoD, intelligence, and other key departments have yet to be filled (the highest number of any new administration), and one wonders if the US might just find itself in a serious crisis due not to any outside threat, but more due to the ineptitude of our own internal government...




<O>This particular brouhaha was caused not by the Trump Administration, but by the Media trying to drive the news rather than just reporting it.

[vienna]

This particular brouhaha was caused not by the Trump Administration, but by the Media trying to drive the news rather than just reporting it.

Oh, I see, the confused and confusing statements made by the various functionaries of the Trump administration to the press, as background sources to the same press, had nothing to do with the "brouhaha"; nor did the very obvious "left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing" 'style' of governance so amply displayed in seemingly all current functions of the Trump administration; nor did the fact it is extremely obvious Trump has not idea one what are the capabilities or constraints of the US Armed Forces; nor did Trump's constant bellicose blustering and 'writing checks' the US Armed forces can't 'cash' because neither Trump nor the gaggle of his sycophantic 'advisers' can seem to manage anything greater than a "Keystone Cops" sort of response to very serious situations; none of the preceding factors had anything to do with the current mess Trump is in: its all the fault of the 'wicked, wicked' press and the fact they actually have the temerity to draw back the curtain and let us, the American people, see we are in danger of suffering grave consequences because the White House occupants are seriously out of their depth. So, if this whole situation goes pear-shaped because Trump or his minions screw the pooch, the fault should lay squarely at the door of the press who do not decide foreign policy, who do not decide military policy, who do not give the orders that send troops into harm's way, and who do not have the responsibility of responsibly governing our nation. That concept is a steaming pile: it is time for Trump, his sycophants, and his apologists to all grow a pair and stop hiding behind the straw men of the press, and whoever else they try to use as whipping boys; its time for the White Hose to stop bitching and start leading like grownups, a difficult task since their leader is such a big, spoiled baby...




<O>

[Delgard]

Why did he have to tell the press at all? He made a commitment with Australia and several other nations, he told the much less respected North Koreans that he was barreling down their throat. It worked fine.

Telling the press is like telling the enemy. Even, on his way back north he got to slide in close to the Philippines to cheering coast watchers and then trained with the Japanese.

Why does the carrier even need to be there. Maybe, someone is missing the big picture, guys.

[Rockstar]

Oh, I see, the confused and confusing statements made by the various functionaries of the Trump administration to the press, as background sources to the same press, had nothing to do with the "brouhaha"; nor did the very obvious "left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing" 'style' of governance so amply displayed in seemingly all current functions of the Trump administration; nor did the fact it is extremely obvious Trump has not idea one what are the capabilities or constraints of the US Armed Forces; nor did Trump's constant bellicose blustering and 'writing checks' the US Armed forces can't 'cash' because neither Trump nor the gaggle of his sycophantic 'advisers' can seem to manage anything greater than a "Keystone Cops" sort of response to very serious situations; none of the preceding factors had anything to do with the current mess Trump is in: its all the fault of the 'wicked, wicked' press and the fact they actually have the temerity to draw back the curtain and let us, the American people, see we are in danger of suffering grave consequences because the White House occupants are seriously out of their depth. So, if this whole situation goes pear-shaped because Trump or his minions screw the pooch, the fault should lay squarely at the door of the press who do not decide foreign policy, who do not decide military policy, who do not give the orders that send troops into harm's way, and who do not have the responsibility of responsibly governing our nation. That concept is a steaming pile: it is time for Trump, his sycophants, and his apologists to all grow a pair and stop hiding behind the straw men of the press, and whoever else they try to use as whipping boys; its time for the White Hose to stop bitching and start leading like grownups, a difficult task since their leader is such a big, spoiled baby...


<O>


Speaking of acting like grown-ups and big spoiled babies. Dude, did you even bother to read the lifer-times story you linked too? I did, but I don't understand why you linked too it because it has absolutley nothing to do with the latest rant of yours.

And if want to know whats going on with Carl Vinson check out their face book page.

Release# R-24-17
23 April 2017
CSG-1 and JMSDF ships refine maritime skills while transiting Western Pacific
PHILIPPINE SEA— Carl Vinson Carrier Strike Group and the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF) commenced an at-sea bilateral exercise in the Philippine Sea, April 23.
Nimitz-class aircraft carrier USS Carl Vinson (CVN 70), Ticonderoga-class guided-missile cruiser USS Lake Champlain (CG 57) and Arleigh Burke-class guided-missile destroyer USS Michael Murphy DDG (112) were joined by JMSDF destroyers JS Samidare (DD-106) and JS Ashigara (DDG-178), both out of Sasebo, Japan, as the San Diego-based strike group continued its northern transit in the Western Pacific.
The routine exercise is designed to improve combined maritime response and defense capabilities, increase combined maneuvering proficiency, and ensure maritime forces remain ready to defend the region when called upon.
“We always look forward to operating with our Japanese partners,” said Rear Adm. Jim Kilby, commander, Carrier Strike Group 1. “The relationship between the JMSDF and the United States is better than ever and it’s in part thanks to these bilateral exercises.”
The Carl Vinson Strike Group has conducted three previous bilateral exercises with the JMSDF since deploying earlier this year, most recently in March. The U.S. Navy conducts bilateral and multilateral exercises like this routinely as well as operations in the Western Pacific Ocean with the JMSDF throughout the year.
CSG-1 departed San Diego for a regularly scheduled deployment to the western Pacific, Jan. 5 and is comprised of Carl Vinson, CVW 2, Lake Champlain and embarked Destroyer Squadron (CDS) 1, consisting of Arleigh Burke-class guided-missile destroyers USS Michael Murphy and USS Wayne E. Meyer (108).

[vienna]

Speaking of acting like grown-ups and big spoiled babies. Dude, did you even bother to read the lifer-times story you linked too? I did, but I don't understand why you linked too it because it has absolutley nothing to do with the latest rant of yours.


I think you are speciously conflating two separate posts in an effort to deflect from either of the points I was trying to make. The Navy Times article (which, yes, I did read, thoroughly) was cited as an illustration of how the whole Carl Vinson "brouhaha" was a product of the mismanagement and lack of knowledge and experience of the current inhabitants of the White House. If the details of the mess doesn't fit into your 'sunshine and lollipops' rose-colored view of the current administration, well, there's no helping that; I do feel the people who the US government sends into harm's way deserve way better than the leadership they have now...

Oh, and yes, there are ways to know where the Vinson is and what it is doing; the problem is the guy who should know, and who is making the decisions, obviously doesn't know; maybe you could email him that Facebook link...

The second post had nothing really to do with the first, other than the perpetrators are the same bunch; the issue in the second post was how the administration, and its apologists, seek to place the blame for their shortcomings and failures on everyone other than themselves; with great power comes great responsibility: the current administration seems to want the power but not the responsibility. It takes more than just sticking 'patriot', or freedom' or 'America' on everything they was to slip past the citizens as they bumble their way through governance. They want credit for the little good they've done, they've got took take responsibility the lot of bad they've done, too. If their policies and actions can't stand muster when stripped of their "rah-rah" hyperbole, then they have little to show for their efforts...

Getting back to the subject of the thread, the situation with NK is indeed very serious and it needs not someone who acts like a leader, but who is a leader. The threat of the possible consequences of whatever action is deserving of leadership that is, to quote someone you respect and admire, "sad, weak"...



<O>

[Kaye T. Bai]

Saw this thread title and damn near had a heart attack, since I thought it'd actually happened. :o

[Jimbuna]

Saw this thread title and damn near had a heart attack, since I thought it'd actually happened. :o

No, not yet.

[Reece]

But very soon!:hmmm:

[Gargamel]

Well, he's called the entire senate to the White House to brief them on NK. I am truly hoping he's not looking for a declaration of war here.

[Dowly]

Probably just having hard time finding NK on the map.

[mapuc]

USS Michigan have been given the order to transit to somewhere outside the Korean peninsula.

It shall not be a part in the ongoing exercise or soon to come exercise.

As it says in the Danish article by sending this sub loaded with nuclear, is sending a clear message to Kim.

Markus

[em2nought]

Probably just having hard time finding NK on the map.

It's not that hard :D
https://cyberarms.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/north-korea-cyber-capabilities_1.png?w=429&h=287

[Jimbuna]

USS Michigan have been given the order to transit to somewhere outside the Korean peninsula.

It shall not be a part in the ongoing exercise or soon to come exercise.

As it says in the Danish article by sending this sub loaded with nuclear, is sending a clear message to Kim.

Markus

The Michigan is not/should not be carrying nuclear weapons, she was converted in 2007 from an SSBN into an SSGN to carry 154 Tomahawks.

[mapuc]

The Michigan is not/should not be carrying nuclear weapons, she was converted in 2007 from an SSBN into an SSGN to carry 154 Tomahawks.

You are right I stand corrected.

Had to open my CMANO-to investigate

USS Michigan a Ohio class submarine was before 2008 a submarine, loaded with all from Trident C4 to Trident D5, depending on year.

Now she carry 154 UGM-109E Tomahawk Blk IV Tactom

These tomahawks can do a lot of damage too.

Markus

[mapuc]

(to the moderators. Merge this with the Other North Korea thread, which I can't find)

About 30 minutes ago I saw on the primetime news, the Danish Journalist who's an political expert on USA, saying

"In the United States, between the politicians on both sides, there is a broad consensus that North Korea should be punished for the killing of Otto Warmbier

He also said.

They are a little dubious about this because they are afraid North Korea Will retaliate by attacking South Korea or Japan.

Markus

[Gerald]

Name: https://www.google.se/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj619C9sc3UAhVOIVAKHQ2IDqIQFgg5MAM&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FOtto_W armbier&usg=AFQjCNGWnTQ4Iwz-vy4f75c6JkJtKpN3zQ&sig2=BQ8SclhSItQd5QwUwXpnzg

[Jimbuna]

Threads merged.

[Nippelspanner]

Now she carry 154 UGM-109E Tomahawk Blk IV Tactom
This is partially wrong.

CMANO can indeed be used for basic research, but like any unofficial source, needs to be seen in context.
This is the weapon they decided to give it in the game/sim - in RL it can carry various types of UGM-109, of course, depending on mission/target.

I would eat a broom with stick if it would have indeed 154 missiles of the same type, as this would narrow its tactical versatility quite a lot.

[mapuc]

This is partially wrong.

CMANO can indeed be used for basic research, but like any unofficial source, needs to be seen in context.
This is the weapon they decided to give it in the game/sim - in RL it can carry various types of UGM-109, of course, depending on mission/target.

I would eat a broom with stick if it would have indeed 154 missiles of the same type, as this would narrow its tactical versatility quite a lot.

Thank you for correcting me.

I thought that people behind this CMANO made their homework before writing information about weapons and other stuff into the game.

I still love this game.

Markus

[Nippelspanner]

Thank you for correcting me.

I thought that people behind this CMANO made their homework before writing information about weapons and other stuff into the game.

I still love this game.

Markus
You weren't wrong - just a tad inaccurate. :03:

CMANO is severely complex, I have it myself but haven't played much yet.
However, the database I did check and also used for research about sensor systems and when US submarines did use what sensors etc.
For that, it seems accurate enough.

I just checked mine and here the different UGM-109 are actually listed for the class, however, for some reason it only carries one type - but could carry the others as well from what I understand (speaking game):
http://i.imgur.com/aqLhHbq.png

[Gargamel]

It's not that hard :D
https://cyberarms.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/north-korea-cyber-capabilities_1.png?w=429&h=287

Yes it is, it is easily mistaken for the North Korean Sea.

[mapuc]

Back to topic-from the discussion about CMANO.

When I heard this Journalist saying these thing in Danish, my first thought was.

Will we in the next 1-2 month see some kind of a military strike on North Korea or will they add some more politicians or others from the Elite in North Korea to the Embargo-list, as an punishment for killing Otto Warmbier.

Markus

[Platapus]

I don't think a military strike would be appropriate, effective, nor justified.

It is strange that the US government restricts US citizens traveling to Cuba but not to North Korea where we are still technically at war.

[mapuc]

Someone wrote somewhere on the Internet
"Trump's ways are inscrutable" Therefore, we should, when it comes to Trump, be prepared for either a military strike or further embargo or something else.

Markus

[ikalugin]

I don't think a military strike would be appropriate, effective, nor justified.

It is strange that the US government restricts US citizens traveling to Cuba but not to North Korea where we are still technically at war.
I think Russia is still at war with Japan.

[Schroeder]

I don't think a military strike would be appropriate, effective, nor justified.

That's the way I see it too. You go to a country run by an inhumane dictatorship and where people consider you to be an enemy and you break the country's rules (no matter how ridiculous you think they are) then you have to suffer the consequences, including death through massive abuse. Sorry, but that's how the game is played in those countries and that guy went there voluntarily.

[Catfish]

I think Russia is still at war with Japan.

Good point. So why don't you eventually make a treaty? Does Japan still want Sachalin? :03:

But then Japan is not a dictatorship, demanding absolute obedience and killing its own people for the slightest critique of the government. I have always wondered how the communism of the time could ever accept a state like North Korea as having anything to do with "communism"? Ah, Stalin.. if you call a one-man-dictatorship "communism" it makes "sense", ok. in astrict sense, the "Soviet" Union never had anything to do with communism.


*edit: ok it is about the Kurils, sorry. And a treaty ending the war has been signed between Russia, and Japan in 1956. Seems there are current talks about the islands in qustion, Putin will travel to Japan in december 2017, to talk about that once more.

[vienna]

...

*edit: ok it is about the Kurils, sorry. And a treaty ending the war has been signed between Russia, and Japan in 1956. Seems there are current talks about the islands in qustion, Putin will travel to Japan in december 2017, to talk about that once more.

Probably go something like this:

Putin: "So, Prime Minister Abe, you want to discuss the islands? Say, you wouldn't happen to be up for election, soon, would you?..."...




<O>

[vienna]

NK's Kim seems a bit uneasy, of late:

North Korea Leader Kim Jong Un Fears 'Decapitation' by Squad of U.S. Navy Seals --

http://www.newsweek.com/north-korea-leader-kim-jong-un-fears-decapitation-squad-united-states-navy-627863

The original SK Korea Herald article:

Kim Jong-un nervous about assassination: NIS --

http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20170615000944


Usually when you hear about some despot taking measures like sleeping in different places each night, never using the same car twice, etc., they are usually not long for this world...




<O>

[Nippelspanner]

Tehehe, who knows maybe Dennis Rodman isn't the despicable crapbird after all who voluntarily calls Kim a "friend", but is in fact a sleeper, a CIA assassin waiting to strike? :haha:

[vienna]

Somebody please put that idea in Kim's head; the idea of not getting Rodman back is so very appealing...




<O>

[Nippelspanner]

Somebody please put that idea in Kim's head; the idea of not getting Rodman back is so very appealing...




<O>
Frankly, I thought how funny it would be if Kim reads my post (sure he's a member here, I mean come on) and gets paranoid about it.

Time for laser sharks?
Laser sharks!

"An nao Mistel Lodminn... you die!!"

[Jimbuna]

I don't envisage any military strike against NK unless China gives 'tacit permission' in advance.

However, perhaps one should always expect the unexpected from the current POTUS.

[Commander Wallace]

Somebody please put that idea in Kim's head; the idea of not getting Rodman back is so very appealing...




<O>



:yep:

[ikalugin]

But then Japan is not a dictatorship, demanding absolute obedience and killing its own people for the slightest critique of the government. I have always wondered how the communism of the time could ever accept a state like North Korea as having anything to do with "communism"? Ah, Stalin.. if you call a one-man-dictatorship "communism" it makes "sense", ok. in astrict sense, the "Soviet" Union never had anything to do with communism.Asians are strange and exotic beings, Chinese built what they call communism without socialism (ie pensions).

And yes, Soviet claim was that we were building communism via advanced socialism.


*edit: ok it is about the Kurils, sorry. And a treaty ending the war has been signed between Russia, and Japan in 1956. Seems there are current talks about the islands in qustion, Putin will travel to Japan in december 2017, to talk about that once more.I think the way it worked is that the resolving treaty framework was indeed set up, but Japanese denounced it in the 60s (with the US backing) in the sense that they wanted the Kurills back that they have ceded earlier. We ofc had none of that nonsense and we still wont transfer soverenity over.

Ever since Japanese were playing "northern territories" card in the internal policy, while having a decent relationship with Russia (fishing problems non withstanding).
Current efforts appear to be focused on actually reaching some sort of enduring compromise regarding Kurills, as abandoning them is a political suicide for both sides.

[mapuc]

I follow some pages(or what you call them in English) on FB.

By reading some of what they write on their wall, I start to get a picture, which is a picture of huge or somehow huge naval forces not so from the Korean peninsula/Japan.

Markus

[Platapus]

Between 700 and 1,000 US citizens visit North Korea every year. Practically all of them don't end up breaking NK laws, don't end up being arrested, and don't end up in NK prisons.

I still think it is stupid to visit that country, but evidently almost all Americans who do visit NK come back safely.

[Reece]

Yeh but in what state of mind?:hmmm::)

[Platapus]

So Let's take the lower number as the average. In the past 10 years, 7,000 times have Americans visited NK. Can't accurately say that 7,000 Americans visited NK as some of them are repeat visitors.

During the last 10 years, according to the State Department, 16 American citizens have been arrested in NK.

0.2 percent of Americans get in to trouble visiting NK
99.8% don't

I think those are better odds than you can get visiting Baltimore!!! Except in Baltimore, the police just shoot you.

I still think it is stupid for an American to visit NK, but evidently, the odds are good, if you behave yourself.

I was surprised at how many Americans visit NK each year. :doh:

However, that's not the "lottery" I would like to "win" :nope:

[Jimbuna]

North Korea missile test: Hwasong-14 hailed as ICBM

North Korea says it has successfully tested its first "intercontinental ballistic missile" (ICBM).
A state television announcement said the missile, which landed in the Sea of Japan on Tuesday, could hit targets anywhere in the world.
But the US and Russia said the missile had a medium range and presented no threat to either country.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-40491138

Either way, long or short range, something must be done about this sooner or later.

[eddie]

I agree Jim, but what could we do so that South Korea wouldn't end up looking like Iraq? We couldn't stop everything North Korea would throw at South Korea, would be a bloody mess, with a lot of South Korean cities looking like Mosul, sadly.

[Catfish]

I don't envisage any military strike against NK unless China gives 'tacit permission' in advance.

However, perhaps one should always expect the unexpected from the current POTUS.

Well Trump initiated the strike against Syriah to take place at the exact time he was visiting Xi in China as a show-off. Maybe he will initiate another strike against North Korea, while visiting Kim? :hmmm:

While eating some north korean chocolate cake with Yong Un "Oh, by the way Kim i just ordered a nucl.."
..swooooosh..
".. wait what.."
*booom*

[eddie]

:haha::haha:

[Skybird]

Leaving NK the option to send nukes to the US or Europe, is unacceptable and non-negotiable. And if this guy is right, then this missile test maybe must be seen as a signal to go to red alert and become serious about militarily contain NK's options, both conventional (to limit damage to the south), and nuclear (to limit damage to ourselves).

http://allthingsnuclear.org/dwright/north-korea-appears-to-launch-missile-with-6700-km-range

More pointless hope for rationality raining down from heaven all of a sudden, and continuing to waste time with daydreaming, is no option anymore - if that guy ^ is right. If the Koreans have a missile of that range, next comes the miniaturization of a nuclear warhead to equip that missile with - the last step in their ambitions. When they complete that task as well, THEN IT IS TOO LATE - for then they are untouchable. They must be hit before they become untouchable.

I would prefer China to do the dirty job, but that of course is also just daydreaming - by me. Although it would be, last but not least, in their very own interest. The NK regime has to be ended - and before it becomes untouchable.

[moose1am]

According to some American(can't remember his/her name and title)said to some news agency, that USA kept every possibility open.

When he said that(through a Swedish news program) I knew that we very soon will see some kind of military action against NK- On the other hand, I'm very bad to predict coming events

Edit: Have an additional question- How far is NK in they developing their Nukes-I know they have nukes, but can they add these to their short and medium range missiles ?


Markus

Now this is scarier to me. I lived thought the Cuban Missile Crisis back in the 1960's and the teachers at my grammar school taught us to hide under our desks. Even back then when I was in the 4th grade I knew it would be all over if we got into a nuclear war with Russia. We had a saying back then if war broke out. Bend over and kiss your A** goodbye. Even little kids know what it means to have a nuclear war. And that was back in the 1960's. The nuclear weapons we have today are 100's times more powerful and would destroy the entire earth in a matter of minutes. You need to remember the dangers or radiation and the dangers of the fall out in the air and water if nuclear bombs were ever exploded in the air in numbers.

[moose1am]

http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy99/ttrivett/Stuff/10354875_10203258075121214_4452620770491568222_n_z psiftgy1kt.jpg

:har:

[moose1am]

Geez guys... I was just wondering if the f-35 was operational yet or not.

LOL After reading the pages about nuclear wars between NK and the US I too was looking for information about the F35 jet fighters too.

Not one mention of the F35 since you posted the Original Post in here. We sent some F35 over to Europe. I think it was to Poland where a squadron of F35's were sent to help protect them from a Russian Invasion of that area. More of a signal to Russia than to stop an invasion.

[mapuc]

A preemptive strike is even more far away than it was yesterday

According to some political and military expert I heard on todays Danish news program.

South Korea and Japan are starting to get a second thought about this and are not so "Up-to-it" and as time goes by, not even USA is fan of such a thing a preemptive strike. Not if NK manage to develop ICBM with nukes or multi nukes(forgot the correct words)

(That is if not NK attacks SK, Japan or USA itself, then USA have no other option then initiate an attack on NK).

Do we exactly know what Kim & Co will do when they have reached that goal ? Will he restart the war against SK and USA ? Or will he use this as a very strong playing card in future negotiation ?

Markus

[Mr Quatro]

We should allow North Korea all of the luxury items they can afford. So many that they get the mentality "we are rich ... we don't want to die anymore" and therefore build in them the desire to survive. :yep:

[Jimbuna]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-40497972

Russia and China have urged North Korea to "freeze" its missile and nuclear programmes after it claimed to have successfully tested its first intercontinental ballistic missile.

I doubt Kim will take any notice.

Both countries also called for a simultaneous suspension of US-South Korea large-scale military exercises.

Surprise surprise.

Calling the launch "unacceptable", Russia and China, which share a land border with North Korea, also urged the US to not deploy the Thaad missile system - which aims to intercept attacks from Pyongyang - in South Korea.

The US response should be identical to the one given by Brigadier General Anthony McAuliffe at Bastogne......"NUTS!"

[mapuc]

The Politicians in Washington is of course worried. They are also talking about some kind of Embargo against Chines banks who and companies that have connection to North Korea or have made deal with Kim.

Markus

[Buddahaid]

I'd rather see China annex NK and forget about Taiwan.

[Skybird]

A preemptive strike is even more far away than it was yesterday

According to some political and military expert I heard on todays Danish news program.

South Korea and Japan are starting to get a second thought about this and are not so "Up-to-it" and as time goes by, not even USA is fan of such a thing a preemptive strike. Not if NK manage to develop ICBM with nukes or multi nukes(forgot the correct words)

(That is if not NK attacks SK, Japan or USA itself, then USA have no other option then initiate an attack on NK).

Do we exactly know what Kim & Co will do when they have reached that goal ? Will he restart the war against SK and USA ? Or will he use this as a very strong playing card in future negotiation ?

Markus
Imagine this.

Imagine me to be a mentally insane and totally unscrupulous psychopath who has killed his mother because she said she wanted a brother for me, and who strangled his lover because she looked at another man, and who took an MP and mowed down people in a shopping mall, and then used a sniper rifle to shoot people running away and being out of an MP's range already. And all the the time while I kill, I make a children choire singing "We wish you a merry christmas" while I slurp chocolate pudding between each shot with my sniper rifle, and while I spill gasoline over every choire boy singing a wrong note, and set him ablaze. Imagine me to be totally insane, mad, crazy, nuts, unreliable, unscrupulous.

And then you see me staring at you, and then slowly swinging my rifle at your direction, obviously with the intention to take aim at you.

You have a rifle yourself. WHAT DO YOU DO...?

Do you wait until I have finished my movement and have you in my crosshair and you have a Mexican draw and cannot kill me anymore without having me killing you, too? Do you allow this deadlock to materialise and then trust in me becoming sane and reasonable and trustworthy all of a sudden, so that you can trust my promises and can put your faith in any treaty you want to negotiate with me?

Or do you prefer to shoot me before I could finish to trim my weapon's barrel at you? Do you wait and hesitate in good faith, hoping that you get away with your - well, getting away with your - what...? Gamble? Flipping a coin? Throwing dice?

Kim's reputation is known. He is a psychopathic pig, a blood-dripping monstrosity, a deadly, murderous narcissist and totally unemotional psychopath. He has killed his brother, and other members of his family, He has killed his lover. He supresses his people and had many of them gotten killed as well. And now he wants a nuclear toy to reach America and Europe.

What do you do? Do you allow him to complete his ambition?

[Catfish]

^ all true, but so few oil in North Korea. Otherwise we would have probably fought for democracy.
[/cyn mode]

And when i say "we" it makes me angry, because Germany does nothing in that regard, apart from being indirect and sometimes even unwilling helpers of other nation's efforts.

[Jimbuna]

^
^
That is more or less the dilemma Trump currently faces Sky :yep:

[Skybird]

^ all true, but so few oil in North Korea.
But 480 million people in europe, 310 million in the US. We have so much more to loose. Not to win, but to loose. Northkorea can bomb and destroy so many cities that are so much more wealthy and rich and precious, than we can destroy in North Korea, and we have so many more lives at risk in our home countries, than there are people in North Korea. We should kill North Korea at no cost to our homecountries and limited costs to Korea, then having to deal with a situation where all what we have and what we are is at stake and we face a North Korea able to deny us our survival.

I do not like it, and I do not celebrate. Not at all. But reality is what it is. We accept it, deal with it, and for doing so we pay a price. We deny it, and we will pay a much, much more costly price. Have we nothing learned from similiar lessons of the the past? That you cannot contain an aggressor by appeasment and allowing him to become stronger and stronger? Especially if he is driven by religious madness, or psychologic madness, megalomania?

Its not about lacking oil, but lacking determination, about indifference, about lousy leadership, about the infantile desire that the good fairy queen will make a visit and solves the mess for us.

[Jimbuna]

I agree Jim, but what could we do so that South Korea wouldn't end up looking like Iraq? We couldn't stop everything North Korea would throw at South Korea, would be a bloody mess, with a lot of South Korean cities looking like Mosul, sadly.

I think the South could defeat the North in a conventional conflict, especially when the Thaad missile system becomes fully operational.

I'm not so sure the Generals in the North would support Kim wholeheartedly if they realised he wasn't going to win.

[Skybird]

https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article166261453/Wie-zum-Teufel-kommt-Kim-an-eine-solche-Rakete.html

I recommend to use a translation bot for this. The article explores the question where the hgeck NK did get such a missile, and how it was able to score such a successful (!) series of tests in such a short ammount of time. It is unlikely that it was capable to develope this by itself, so it must have bought it, at least major parts of it. It could be that the Chinese or Russia equip NK in order to enable it to form a military threat to the US. Both countries' interests for that are obvious. It could be India to install NK as a nculear player against China. It could be Iran. The missile program of NK has ties with all these countries, and latest hardware spotting reports show new hardware from these countries being used for NKorean missiles and missile carriers.

Including technology produced from European companies.

The Chinese can and should not be trusted over NK. I am convinced they play a double game when pressing NK. A second military threat to the US in the region is in their best interest.

[Skybird]

I think the South could defeat the North in a conventional conflict, especially when the Thaad missile system becomes fully operational.
And does not get flooded with overwhelming scores of incoming vampyres.

[Mr Quatro]

I say we give NK five (5) more years saying peace, peace, lets be at peace and then piss them off so we can kiss our butts good-by :haha:

[Jimbuna]

And does not get flooded with overwhelming scores of incoming vampyres.

Not sure what you mean Sky :06:

[Jimbuna]

Now we see the predictable response and rhetoric :hmmm:

The US and South Korea have held a ballistic missile drill, after North Korea tested a long-range missile experts believe may reach Alaska.
Self-restraint was "all that separated armistice and war" and could be changed at any time, the two allies said.
It would be a "grave mistake" for the North to think otherwise, they said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-40503558

[Catfish]

I guess taking this régime out would be a good and positive thing for the entire rest of the world, considered all we know and hear.

On the other side it may take generations to change minds away from decade-long propaganda and indoctrination of the NK people.
http://all-that-is-interesting.com/north-korean-propaganda/2
http://www.theblaze.com/news/2013/07/19/north-korean-anti-u-s-propaganda-is-about-a-unsettling-as-youd-expect/
http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/movies/north-korea-documentary-under-the-sun-smuggled-footage-exposes-propaganda-machine/news-story/3dc645751ea546e1c2dd1c5e7a6cb5bf

And to prevent a falling back. I mean look what happens in Russia, with all this Stalin hype and old communist 'welldoing' nostalgia. And what happens in Germany, with this "Ostalgia", how nice the GDR was.

[Skybird]

Not sure what you mean Sky :06:
Something that war theorists think would be common at a major engagement at sea nowadays: naval units firing their missiles in huge quantity and short time, creating swarms of vampyres (=missiles) that overload the target's distance and point defence, or has it running out of counter-missile missiles. Create a more densly saturated attack volley than the target has capacity to neutralise. Thats is also the main porboem that Ronny's Star Wars idea failed over: the Russians could have saturated the atmosphere with more incoming warheads than the US mainland had missiles and platforms to shoot down.

If you know the target area for an airstrike is defended by four missile carriers with four missiles each, what do you do if you want to be certain at least one plane gets through to strike? You send not 4x4=16 but you send 17 planes at least.

Thats what is so bad about our modern time defence tehcnology. It is costly, super-capasble, but is available only at very limited numbers. Huge numbers have a charm of their own. And every loss of one Hightech platform by the defender weighs even the more heavy and has more costly consequences.

Royal Navy dilemma, anyone? Good quality units, but ridiculously small numbers now?

[ikalugin]

the Russians could have saturated the atmosphere with more incoming warheads than the US mainland had missiles and platforms to shoot down.
We also had our own star wars.

[Mr Quatro]

We also had our own star wars.

We are working on the coverage problem ... It's not just Russian anymore.

http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/53b2e4326bb3f7ee09603d6c-1200-1574/bi_graphics_nukeinfographic-3.jpg

[mapuc]

@ Skybird

I stand corrected, I knew that Kim is some kind of a psychopath-I'm not a Psychologist or psychiatrist, but have through other program about these type of people learned that they can have a high level of "Me an only me comes first" and they have a high level of "Let everyone die, as long I can live on/forever" = no death wish. Something like that.

I think, from having seen, read and heard political and military expert, that Kim is playing a very risky game with USA and its allied.

Yesterday before bedtime, I read the lastest news on telefax(TV) and there it said that diplomacy has failed. USA is searching for some other way to punish NK. As mentioned in my former comments USA is working on some kind of Embargo against banks and companies in China.

Markus

[Skybird]

A diagnosed psychopathic personality structure is a person who has no ability to feel empathy and thus cannot feel the justified needs and desires and emotions of other living beings, may it be animals or humans. Therefore they treat them cold, cruel, abusive and torture them like they want and see useful - like you and me claim the right to place that dead book on the table in the way we want it, in the left corner or the right corner, closed or open, and if the book would all of a sudden resist our will, we would become enraged and feel free to shredder or burn it without remorse, for we think it is just a thing without a will of its own. We would feel no moral scruples and no guilt. That is what a psychopath is. Living beigns are things to him, and he reserves the right to handle them like things and to manipulate them like he wants, like you keep the flowers on your table one day longer, of throw them away already today. You do not feel guilty if throwing them away. You feel no obligations to them and no responsibility for your handling of them. Things are things only.

Its most likely indeed a neurally encoded deficit, a handicap in the hardware that you cannot argue with, cannot convince and cannot give therapy of any sorts to, and so there is no known treatment or cure to it - you an only lock such a person away, or kill it. Lower grades of psychopathic personality characterics are found to be comulated in certain professional branches like politics, banking management, doctors, and higher ranks and leasdership psoitions in many other branches as well. Yopu need a certain power and willingness to be brutal to do certain things or climb in the popwer hierarchy. This shows that we are talking about not a fixiated quality state (either you are psychopathic or not), but a spectrum of psychopathic quality (we all are psychopaths, some more, some less). I claim that the socially helpful jobs also show many non-maximum-grade psychopaths in action, they define themselves by the power they have over others.

[mapuc]

Thank you for giving me a little lesson on how a psychopath is thinking. I do know there are several types of psychopath, such as sociopath.

Don't know what type of psychopath Kim is.

Do you think, with your knowledge that Kim wouldn't hesitate to use his ICBM against USA as a first strike, when NK has developed the technique to shrimp their nukes so they fit in the top of a ICBM ?

Markus

[Jimbuna]

vampyres (=missiles)

Ah, right, now I understand :yep:

I stand by an earlier statement I made when I said China holds the key and as I've recently posted in the Volvo electric vehicle thread, I suspect Trump will attempt to gather support at the forthcoming G20 Summit to impose sanctions not only on Kim but also China for breaking a promise or failing to make good an assurance they would act against Kim at the meeting Trump had with Xi Jinping recently.

IMHO economic stability and prosperity is the be all and end all in the current Chinese priorities.

[Platapus]

Fortunately, I have met only one person I truly believe was a psychopath. Unfortunately, he was in the military.
Fortunately he did not have access to weapons.
Unfortunately, he did not need weapons to torture animals to death.
Fortunately, his tendencies came to the attention of the authorities
Unfortunately, he was very well connected
Fortunately, I never had to be around him after graduation
Unfortunately, I fear that he continued torturing animals.

A very scary individual. Talking to him was horrifying.

[Platapus]

.

Do you think, with your knowledge that Kim wouldn't hesitate to use his ICBM against USA as a first strike, when NK has developed the technique to shrimp their nukes so they fit in the top of a ICBM ?

Markus


I don't think he would hesitate using his nuclear weapons if he thought his reign was threaten. But I don't think he would use them in a first strike.

Which is why I think the US, and other nations, should ratchet down the rhetoric a bit.

[Onkel Neal]

I don't think he would hesitate using his nuclear weapons if he thought his reign was threaten. But I don't think he would use them in a first strike.

Which is why I think the US, and other nations, should ratchet down the rhetoric a bit.

You're sure giving this guy a lot of credit for being reasonable and sane.

[Méo]

You're sure giving this guy a lot of credit for being reasonable and sane.

Well I think it's more than obvious that a first strike with a nuclear weapon during peace time would be the most horrifying thing mankind would ever witness.

I don't think he's stupid enough to ignore that his reign and his own person would be totally annihilated within minutes or very few hours at best following this act.

I think his military leaders are not stupid enough to ignore all the arsenal the U.S. and their allies have:

Nuclear warhead thrown from everywhere: planes, ships & submarines, ICBM, maybe satellites (even if prohibited) and that's without other means we ignore...

The U.S. still has by far the best military technology whether it is reconnaissance satellites, missiles that are capable of delivering an underground nuclear strike, all kind of spies systems, data processing means, etc.

My personal belief is that he's doing this as a power demonstration over his people and to show (everything is about appearance here) that he could handle any threat.

But he knows (at least his close advisors know) that it wouldn't take long before being completely annihilated in a full scale total war.

[Catfish]

A diagnosed psychopathic personality structure is a person who has no ability to feel empathy and thus cannot feel the justified needs and desires and emotions [..]

Seems this maybe different than assumed:

A new study by a Harvard University-led team has shed some light on the underlying causes of psychopathy. Explaining their findings in the journal Neuron (http://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273%2817%2930554-8?_returnURL=http%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com% 2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0896627317305548%3Fshowall%3Dt rue), these researchers describe how they uncovered the neurological “wiring” that makes psychopaths so impulsive and sometimes dangerously reckless. *Although it’s previously been assumed that it’s their lack of empathy that engenders reckless choices and actions, this team have concluded that it’s the appeal of the short-term reward that’s really motivating their decisions.
“Because it's the choices of psychopaths that cause so much trouble, we've been trying to understand what goes on in their brains when they make decisions that involve trade-offs between the costs and benefits of action,” senior author Josh Buckholtz, an associate professor of psychology, said in a statement (https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2017-07/hu-ppb070317.php).

The more impulsive and thus more psychopathic individuals required gratification far sooner, as expected. Individuals with high psychopathy scores showed greater activity in the region of the brain associated with immediate reward.

http://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(17)30554-8?_returnURL=http%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com% 2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0896627317305548%3Fshowall%3Dt rue
https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2017-07/hu-ppb070317.php

* This somehow reminds me of uh oh

[Aktungbby]

Well I think it's more than obvious that a first strike with a nuclear weapon during peace time would be the most horrifying thing mankind would ever witness.

Precisely! Dropping the bomb on Hiroshima was never just defeating the already defeated Japanese; we were also sending a message to the postwar Stalinist regime. Truman, an artillery captain in WWI understood his cannon was bigger than the Soviets-so a demonstration was in order... That message could stand repeating against China in the South China Sea, Russia in Ukraine and Syria..and of course the evil Iranians. Should megalomaniac Fatboy actually deploy a missile with a nuke-tip or any test missile land on an allied sovereign territory: Guam, Japan, Saipan etc....the game is up: hasta la vista Pyongyang; essentially a Potemkin village in the first place. But the message, like the one in 1945, will be clear. That should keep everyone relatively tranquil for the next half century....N. Korea is really perfect situated and expendible for the political demonstration imho. Trump will of course be the 'bad guy'....but he's politically expendable too! So, we get rid of two bad-hair megalomaniacs!:yeah: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MwHLjtDw1A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MwHLjtDw1A)

[Skybird]

Do you think, with your knowledge that Kim wouldn't hesitate to use his ICBM against USA as a first strike, when NK has developed the technique to shrimp their nukes so they fit in the top of a ICBM ?

Markus
I have no clue, I am not inside his head.

Point is: I do not want to leave him the option to have me/us finding out at my/our/America's cost.

There is also another threat, and it already has materialised: nuclear proliferation.

---

Media say that Russia has had a strong hand in delivering the missile now to NK, at least major, decisive parts for it. All by itself NK would not be where it is. Its stuff like this why I say since many years it is stupid to bully the Russians and demand them to always play ball by our rules we set up for them. What we see in Northkorea is their way to return the favours we did them.

[Skybird]

Seems this maybe different than assumed:

A new study by a Harvard University-led team has shed some light on the underlying causes of psychopathy. Explaining their findings in the journal Neuron (http://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273%2817%2930554-8?_returnURL=http%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com% 2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0896627317305548%3Fshowall%3Dt rue), these researchers describe how they uncovered the neurological “wiring” that makes psychopaths so impulsive and sometimes dangerously reckless. *Although it’s previously been assumed that it’s their lack of empathy that engenders reckless choices and actions, this team have concluded that it’s the appeal of the short-term reward that’s really motivating their decisions.
“Because it's the choices of psychopaths that cause so much trouble, we've been trying to understand what goes on in their brains when they make decisions that involve trade-offs between the costs and benefits of action,” senior author Josh Buckholtz, an associate professor of psychology, said in a statement (https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2017-07/hu-ppb070317.php).

The more impulsive and thus more psychopathic individuals required gratification far sooner, as expected. Individuals with high psychopathy scores showed greater activity in the region of the brain associated with immediate reward.

http://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(17)30554-8?_returnURL=http%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com% 2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0896627317305548%3Fshowall%3Dt rue
https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2017-07/hu-ppb070317.php

* This somehow reminds me of uh oh

I dont know that study, and I am no more active in psychology anyway, but the older understanding I explained and this claim now must not be mutually exclusive, saying that after just this first glance.

But one would need to study that study and elaborate its methodologic basis before one can form an opinion on it. And to do that I am not interested enough anymore. But still thanks for bringing this study up.

[Mr Quatro]

The leader of North Korea is the problem ... the people are innocent.

Why nuke a whole country to take out one leader ... let the normal train of thoughts in someones head that to take out Kim Jong-Un is better than wiping out an entire innocent population, not to mention that after the war we would have to offer food, medical-aid and counseling to millions of people in both the North and the South. If the USA would make a first strike we lose the support of the rest of the world, who already blame us for being the police of the world we live in.

Did you know that North Korea has been led to believe that we aren’t in the year 2015 right now, but actually in year 103 ... North Koreans are made to believe they should count year 1 as the year Kim Il Sung was born.

Ten Most Ridiculous Lies North Koreans Are Made To Believe

10. The U.S. Started The Korean War

9. Kim Jong-Il Had A Supernatural Birth

8. Kim Jong-il Is A Fashion Icon

7. Kim Jong-Il Is Loved And North Korea Is Envied All Over The World

6. Kim Jong-Il Invented The Hamburger

5. Kim Jong-Il Is The Best Natural Golfer & Bowler In The World

4. Kim Jong-Il Is Magical

3. Kim Jong-Il Cured Dwarfism

2. Kim Jong-Il Was Extraordinarily Gifted

1. Internet Access Is Not Allowed To Protect The West

North Koreans are made to believe that the reason that they don’t have access to the internet is because government officials would like to protect the West’s reputation. They don’t want to expose the people of North Korea to the filth and hate that is on the internet and they feel that their people would see things that would make them unfairly critical towards the West.

http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/most-shocking/10-most-ridiculous-lies-north-koreans-are-made-to-believe/

[Skybird]

What makes you beleve that assassination has not already been tried?

Of course it has been tried. Problem is the target is pretty much out of reach, apparently.

Also, the officer corps. They have much too lose, have priviliges that they would most likely lose in any new order without a strong dictator.

Next, you said it yourself, the population is heavily brainwashed. Take out the leader, and many still would continue to believe, and would be willing to fight.

All that must not be our concern, however. Our concern only is to destroy nuclear weapons with a range that they pose a threat to us. Doing that is like trying to stroke an angry rattlesnake. Thats why you better take these weapons out before they get the legs to reach us.

Taking them out it seems will be a dirty job, and that is why nobody wants it.

[Platapus]

Did you know that North Korea has been led to believe

Other than citing an entertainment website, how exactly do you know what the North Koreans believe?

Most of our "news" about North Korea comes from South Korea...not exact an unbiased source.

[Platapus]

You're sure giving this guy a lot of credit for being reasonable and sane.

I have not seen any evidence that he is insane.

He is ruthless, cruel, selfish, uncaring of the people in his domination of the country. He routinely does things that are abhorrent to our culture.

He is an all around scumbag and probably not a nice guy.

I think that North Korea, and to a small extent the world would be a better place without him.

But what has he done that would indicate that he is insane?

I guess that would depend on how one chooses to define insanity.

In the US legal system insanity is often defined as

'Insanity is a mental illness of such a severe nature that a person cannot distinguish fantasy from reality, cannot manage his/her own affairs, or is subject to uncontrollable impulsive behavior."

Using this definition (which really does not apply to North Korea but let's go with it) KJU is not insane

KJU can tell the difference between reality and fantasy. His may think that people are out to get him for the very good reason that they probably are.

KJU seems to be able to manage his own affairs. He seems to live a pretty good life.

KJU may appear to act impulsively, but his actions may, in fact, be very well thought out. I don't think he has ever accidentally killed anyone... it is deliberate!

But one thing that seems clear is that KJU has a high sense of self-preservation. He is not some religious nutter willing to die for a higher cause. He likes living and he enjoys his creature comforts.

While I have no problem believing that he will gladly sacrifice any number of his people casually, I doubt that he will be so casual with sacrificing his own life.

Dictator type leaders tend to like living.

[Catfish]

[...] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MwHLjtDw1A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MwHLjtDw1A)

Thanks, this was really interesting and arousing at the same time. Certainly it is Russia Today, but.. it's not all wrong just because of that.

The usual argument for dropping the bombs is to spare american soldiers' lives, because it shortened the war, no invasion of the japanese mainland and so forth. This of course worked, Japan was already finished and it would have taken more time and a lot of suffering on both sides.

But being civilized and all that, and then killing a hundred thousand civilians in big cities with those two bombs (and why two?), let alone the genetic aftermath.. may the reason be shortening the war or threatening Russia.. you really have to win a war to get through with that. Having "the bomb" of course helps..
Different times, different mindsets, propaganda, Japan perpetrating atrocities. Still I wonder if i were japanese, whether i would ever forgive. The Japanese seems to have forgiven it though. How is that seen nowadays, in the USA? :hmmm:

[Nippelspanner]

What makes you beleve that assassination has not already been tried?

Of course it has been tried. Problem is the target is pretty much out of reach, apparently.

Also, the officer corps. They have much too lose, have priviliges that they would most likely lose in any new order without a strong dictator.

Next, you said it yourself, the population is heavily brainwashed. Take out the leader, and many still would continue to believe, and would be willing to fight.

All that must not be our concern, however. Our concern only is to destroy nuclear weapons with a range that they pose a threat to us. Doing that is like trying to stroke an angry rattlesnake. Thats why you better take these weapons out before they get the legs to reach us.

Taking them out it seems will be a dirty job, and that is why nobody wants it.
If you're really arguing that using nuclear weapons on North Korea would be a good idea, or worth a thought at all, please stop, take a step back, and think again.
Seriously.

This is so wrong on so many levels, I am uncertain where to begin, but how about:
- Fallout will not only affect NK, it will affect China and/or Russia too.
And how will these countries react to some western country causing this?

- The people are innocent. Brainwashed or not. You could also say we should nuke the US or ourselves, for we are just as brainwashed - only in a different way, the "better way". Let's not pretend we are worth more than any North Korean farmer who just tries to keep his family alive and out of trouble, just because we have iPhones and Starbucks.

- The exact nuclear capabilities of Kim aren't known (to us at least).
If some are indeed ready, and protected by being stationed underground, well than no nuke in the world will prevent these from flying, and personally I do not feel lucky enough today to rely on the missile-defense systems around. They will likely work. But Jesus... what if they will not?
Tough luck, butter cup? :o


Yes, Kim has to go, has to be stopped - by whatever means, but as soon as you start to willingly nuke non combatants, what does that say about you? How is Kim splitting prisoners with heavy machine guns in half worse than someone willingly ending millions of lives?

We got a glimpse of what nukes are capable of in 1945.
The Japanese are still suffering, one way or another, from the consequences. And these nukes were tiny, compared to what is available today.


The day the west commits any form of nuclear first strike, it lost every right to exist itself.

[Skybird]

There were two types of atomic bombs, both untested: an uran-bomb, and a plutonium bomb. And both were wanted to be tested under "real" cinditions, over real targets, since one wanted to know what they could do and to what degree they were different.

Thats how I see it.

Obviously a running war i which the enemy still has not surrendered, is the time and place to run such "real" weapon tests.

Because that is the decisive detial: Japan still had not surrendered when the attack on Nagasaki took place. Whether it was in shock and paralysed, wanted to surrender, wanted to hold out, wanted to save its emperor, wanted this or intended that - thats all speculation. The war was still running. A declaration of surrender had not reached the US. Japan had not given up at the time of Nagasaki's destruction. They better should have hurried more, if after Hiroshima they wated to capitulate anyway. Note the word "if". If the second bomb would have been dropped after a declaration of surrender had reached the Americans, it obviously would have been a war crime then.

[Reece]

There were two types of atomic bombs, both untested: an uran-bomb, and a plutonium bomb. And both were wanted to be tested under "real" cinditions, over real targets, since one wanted to know what they could do and to what degree they were different.

Thats how I see it.

Obviously a running war i which the enemy still has not surrendered, is the time and place to run such "real" weapon tests.

:doh: but :yep:

[Onkel Neal]

Well I think it's more than obvious that a first strike with a nuclear weapon during peace time would be the most horrifying thing mankind would ever witness.

I don't think he's stupid enough to ignore that his reign and his own person would be totally annihilated within minutes or very few hours at best following this act.

I think his military leaders are not stupid enough to ignore all the arsenal the U.S. and their allies have:

Nuclear warhead thrown from everywhere: planes, ships & submarines, ICBM, maybe satellites (even if prohibited) and that's without other means we ignore...

The U.S. still has by far the best military technology whether it is reconnaissance satellites, missiles that are capable of delivering an underground nuclear strike, all kind of spies systems, data processing means, etc.

My personal belief is that he's doing this as a power demonstration over his people and to show (everything is about appearance here) that he could handle any threat.

But he knows (at least his close advisors know) that it wouldn't take long before being completely annihilated in a full scale total war.

You may be right, but again, there is a lot of delusion and crazy in that regime. His military leaders are stupid beyond belief, you know, the ones we always see in the photo ops with Dear Leader, clapping and hopping around like hysterical schoolgirls. Remember a guy named Saddam Hussein? When Bush Jr. gave him an ultimatum he just casually ignored it.

You and I know what would happen if NK launched a nuke, but I cannot say this fruitcake or his simpering toadies really have the same grasp on reality, they are living in a fantasy world. (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/17/north-korea-human-rights-abuses-stories-un-brainwashed)

[Méo]

but again, there is a lot of delusion and crazy in that regime.

Of course, if there would be a stronger word than pathetic, it would have his place here.

I don't know if you can l see this, but seriously, it's both absurd and laughable.:nope:

https://ici.tou.tv/les-grands-reportages/S23E104?lectureauto=1

At 1:15 seems like workers with their hands up trying to look happy, you see this and you're like jeez, there must have a firing squad behind the camera giving them orders.

At 1:19 some ''athletic'' guys who plunge in a competitive pool, when I first saw their splash I started laughing so hard!!:har: one of them even loses his swimming cap...:D

Remember a guy named Saddam Hussein? When Bush Jr. gave him an ultimatum he just casually ignored it.

And that's the problem here. U.S. military interventionism (justified or not) is well known all over the world whether it is the first Korean war, the Bay of Pigs Invasion, Vietnam war, Afghanistan war, Iraq war (twice) and that's without talking about all other ''minors'' interventions.

So I'm pretty sure that he must be saying something like: ''if the evil western imperialism dares to do the same kind of thing here, we will be able to nuke them'', reinforcing his image of power.

So like I said, my belief is that it's a strategic defensive decision.

[Skybird]

You may be right, but again, there is a lot of delusion and crazy in that regime. His military leaders are stupid beyond belief, you know, the ones we always see in the photo ops with Dear Leader, clapping and hopping around like hysterical schoolgirls. R
They are clapping and hopping for their lives, Neal. Kim has executed people for not applauding him enough or showing a lack of enthusiasm in celebrating him.

Which only shows how nuts Kim really is. Trust any treaty with him, and you play with your life. And he will demand more. And then more.

[Jimbuna]

Could be that China has woken up to the realisation that matters are starting to or could soon escalate out of control and have come off the fence a little.

China's foreign minister has told his North Korean counterpart that Pyongyang should stop carrying out nuclear and missile tests, hours after fresh sanctions were agreed by the United Nations Security Council.
Wang Yi said he urged Ri Yong-ho to abide by UN resolutions in a meeting on Sunday in the Philippines.
He did not say how Mr Ri replied.
Saturday's resolution banning North Korean exports and limiting investments in the country was passed unanimously.
Mr Wang said sanctions were needed, but "are not the final goal", and he urged dialogue. He said he had told North Korea to remain calm, and not provoke the international community with more tests.
The Chinese envoy also urged the US and South Korea not to increase tensions, saying that the situation was at a "critical point", but also a juncture at which talks could be resumed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-40842068

[Skybird]

The chinese influence on Kim gets hopelessly overestiumated. The Chinese have NK not under their ocntorl anymore since longer time.

Also, why trusting any Chiense-brokere deal when seeing the groiwng tensions between China and the US? NK is a nice way for China to keep a dagger in America's pacific flank. They may have an interest to get NK back under co9ntrol. But they have no interest at all to ease the pain for the US.

[Jimbuna]

Only time will tell Sky but I've got a feeling that the Chinese are uneasy on the option Trump might take against NK militarily and also have a thought on what a US economic blockade on themselves could do.

Much less painless to tackle Kim directly themselves and save the potential for a whole lot of military and economic bother.

[mapuc]

China is NK's big brother so to say. I guess China has every interest in easing it, ´cause they know if a war breaks out between USA and NK it's highly possible that China would be dragged into this war.

It could also be as I have mentioned before that China takes on NK them self, better take care of the little brother , than start a regional or perhaps a global war.
(this is what I think)

Markus

[Skybird]

Only time will tell Sky but I've got a feeling that the Chinese are uneasy on the option Trump might take against NK militarily and also have a thought on what a US economic blockade on themselves could do.<br />
<br />
Much less painless to tackle Kim directly themselves and save the potential for a whole lot of military and economic bother.<br />
<br />
Yes, they may be uneasy. But that does not give them back their influence over Kim. Its not just a political fact calculation. Its also - and maybe even more - a psychological thing with Kim himself. Stubborness. "My will is bigger than yours".

BTW, most of the latest equipment for these tremendous missile improvements we have seen in the past weeks and months - is said to come from China. Not Russia - China. Without them, the Korean advances, and so rapidly, cannot be reasonably explained. The Chinese probably tick by the same wisom Ameca ticke din the past: "He may be a bloody bastard, but he is our bloody bastard."

I think nothing in the Korean problem is what it seems to be, and most likely China plays a double game here. They want a second front against the US in the Asian waters battlezone area, and that is N-Korea.

Russia has no direct tactical gains to make in a standoff over N-Korea, but geo-strategical ones. Attention the US needs to pay to the Far East and Korea, cannot be invested in the Arctic, Baltic, Eastern Mediterranean and Black Sea.

[Aktungbby]

I think nothing in the Korean problem is what it seems to be, and most likely China plays a double game here. They want a second front against the US in the Asian waters battlezone area, and that is N-Korea. precisely. However China is covering all options and worst case scenarios as well: The Chinese army has reportedly deployed 150,000 troops to the North Korean border to prepare for pre-emptive attacks after the United States dropped airstrikes on Syria.
President Donald Trump (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/donald_trump/index.html)'s missile strike on Syria on Friday was widely interpreted as a warning to North Korea.
And now China (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/china/index.html), left shocked by the air strikes, has deployed medical and backup units from the People's Liberation Army forces to the Yalu River, The troops have been dispatched to handle North Korean refugees and 'unforeseen circumstances', such as the prospect of preemptive attacks on North Korea, the news agency said. It opposes Pyongyang's pursuit of nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles and has signed up to tough United Nations sanctions slapped on North Korea. But it has long been wary of pushing too hard, for fear it could trigger a regime collapse, sending millions of North Koreans surging across the border seeking refuge, while potentially removing a geographic buffer between China and South Korea, a U.S. ally.

[vienna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4VlruVG81w





<O>

[Aktungbby]

당신은 해고되었어요! https://media2.giphy.com/media/sbnHm4yZKFmpy/giphy.gif

[Rockstar]

Here's a story by Robert H. Schmucker and Markus Schiller which to me seems to indicate Fatboy and his regime is not capable of developing missiles on their own. But rather they are easily procuring them, the parts and technology namely from Russia.


The DPRK Missile Show

A comedy in (Currently) Eight Acts

http://www.nkeconwatch.com/nk-uploads/schmucker-schiller-the_missile_show_draft_10-05-05-1.pdf

[Aktungbby]

Here's a more currant observation as of 7/8/2017 along the same path of thought: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/the-secret-to-kims-success-some-experts-see-russian-echoes-in-north-koreas-missiles-advances/2017/07/08/5d4f5fca-6364-11e7-a4f7-af34fc1d9d39_story.html?utm_term=.aa9ab374ede0 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/the-secret-to-kims-success-some-experts-see-russian-echoes-in-north-koreas-missiles-advances/2017/07/08/5d4f5fca-6364-11e7-a4f7-af34fc1d9d39_story.html?utm_term=.aa9ab374ede0)Aft er intensive study, Elleman, a former consultant at the Pentagon, and other specialists would report that they had detected multiple design features in the new North Korean missile engine that echo those of a 1960s-era Soviet workhorse called the RD-250... others see continuing evidence of an outsize role by foreigners, including Russian scientists who provided designs and know-how years ago, and the Chinese vendors who supply the electronics needed for modern missile-guidance systems...the advances of the past years suggest that North Korea’s engineers are now managing quite well on their own.
“The consensus has been that North Korea’s program — missile as well as nuclear — is mostly indigenous,” said Laura Holgate, a top adviser on nonproliferation to the Obama administration who stepped down in January as head of the U.S. mission to the United Nations in Vienna. “They continue to seek to import commercial dual-use technologies for their weapons programs, but the design and innovation is homegrown.” 1) We are in big trouble; 2) "never count on your enemy doing what your plan calls for him to do"; 3) all politics is innately based on greed and have-not nations such as Post Weimar Germany, China, N. Korea, and to some extent, today's Russia (post-Soviet collapse) are simply behaving normally in the build-up to WWIII.

[mapuc]

Copied this from Aktungbby comments

The Chinese army has reportedly deployed 150,000 troops to the North Korean border to prepare for pre-emptive attacks

That is what we have been told or we think that is the case

Have anyone of us, ever been thinking that they are positioned there. to prepare an friendly invasion to help NK in case of an end of the cease fire between USA and NK

Markus

[Jimbuna]

The Chinese are keeping their options open and their cards close to their chest.

What happens next if anything, is anyones guess.

[mapuc]

NORTH Korea has threatened to teach the United States a “severe lesson” by using its nuclear arsenal if Donald Trump takes military action against it.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/837992/North-Korea-Kim-Jong-un-WW3-World-War-3-Donald-Trump-US-UN-sanctions


Markus

[Mr Quatro]

The Chinese are keeping their options open and their cards close to their chest.

What happens next if anything, is anyones guess.

Do you think the Pentagon is doing any guessing?

https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/how-north-korea-would-retaliate

North Korea is powerless to prevent a U.S. strike on its nuclear program, but retaliation is well within its means. The significant military capability that North Korea has built up against South Korea is not advanced by Western standards, but there are practical ways Pyongyang could respond to aggression.

The North Korean military's most powerful tool is artillery. It cannot level Seoul as some reports have claimed, but it could do significant damage. Pyongyang risks deteriorating its forces by exposing them to return fire, however, which significantly restricts their use.

Less conventional methods of retaliation, such as sabotage or cyber warfare, are less risky but also limit the shock that North Korea would desire.

Our side can not rule out sleeper cells in South Korea and even here in our homeland. These war minded Koreans are always thinking how to get even with a first strike.

I say throw his head over the wall ... offer his life for the ones a war would cost. Someone will take up that offer ... :yep:

[Skybird]

They grow so fast and become so eager to leave the house.

[Skybird]

And a report by the Japanese defence ministry, saying that NKorea probably already was successful in miniaturizing its nuclear warheads to fit them onto an ICBM, and that the nuclear program now is in its final phase. Ministry recommends to the government to turn the Japanese defence forces into an "attack force" (I take that as a force more capable to conduct long distance operations), German media quote from the report.

I expect to see that everybody is rattling his sabre but does nothing until it is too late. Once NK has become untouchable, the real fun will begin.

Lesson to be learned here: the same like so many times before in history, when it almost always was ignored before as well: appeasment does not pay off in the long run, but always turns form bad to worse, from worse to worst.

Oh, just btw, since we talk nukes: Turkey highest relgious cleric was asked by Erdoghan to givbe a declaration that Turkey should want to get it sown nukes, and so he did. Many influential politics from the government and the AKP have started to campaign for rallying public support for it as well.

My prediction? Turkey first, Saudi Arabia, Egypt next. Iran is on its way anyway already.

Brazil probably already has them, and Indonesia I expect to want them in the forseeable future as well.

I wonder what opinion side will make the race in Japan.

I want back the cold war. It was a safer time, despite the several accidents and near-doomsday events.

[ikalugin]

Some Japanese politicians just want to get an actual military vs a self defense force.

[Rockstar]

And why not others dont seem to have no problem selling NK everthing need to arm themselves with nuclear weapons.

I vote we equip Japan an South Korea with nuclear weapons immediately.

[mapuc]

Some weeks ago I saw and heard an issue in a Danish News program, where a journalist said that China had sold and bought things from NK for about x billion Dollars(can't remember the figure) and it would be hard to create an effective sanction against NK because of this.

Big brother is helping its little brother.

Markus

[vienna]

There was a report on the radio of a meeting of representatives of China, NK, and SK as a sidebar to a larger meeting of Asian nations, and it seems all did not go well; the NK delegation was openly hostile and disrespectful of the other two delegations and vociferously refused to budge or even seriously discuss any solution to the NK crisis. Considering China has been the "guardian" of NK throughout the decades, it is hard to imagine the antics and truculence of the NK delegation was not a little insulting to China; given China did not exercise its veto power to stop the new NK sanctions package, is it possible China is just about done with NK and most likely will not say 'boo' if the US were to do something 'aggressive' about NK? After all, China could let the US give the Fat Boy the spanking he so richly deserves and then they can resume the role of guardian without the bother of an idiotic, unpredictable leader in NK; China could very well position itself to dictate the form of any new NK leadership...





<O>

[Jimbuna]

^That is certainly a plausible possibility.

[Skybird]

I repeat: there ahve been reports saying that the Nkorean quick advances in their program would not have been possible without help from Russia or China, and that the equipment used in those missile developnments and as carrier platforms, bases on Chinese material.

Stakes raise higher and higher in the South Chinese sea: ressources fields, artifical island building and all that. If the US does not fall back and give up there, a war there only is a question of time in the coming 10-20 years, I assume. The one Leviathan does not want to give up his power. The other Leviathan grabs for right that power and wants it, no matter the cost. This cannot go well forever.

Do not trust China. NKorea distracts the US from the conflict with the nChinese in the South Chinese sea, and in case of war may bind and even kill some US ressources, certainbly affect the US bases in Southern Korea. Logistics and supplies will be drained to serious degrees (recall the speed at which smart ammunition and missiles got consumed in the second - 91 - and third - 03 -Gulf war). Now do the math - who benefits from this?

If China would mean serious business with Kim, they would not hold a fleet parade offshore NKorea, but would stop economic aid and delivery of key technology. Again: indications are strong that China helped and still helps NKorea to accelerate their nuclear program. Maybe Russia as well.

A Chinese fleet manouver offshore NorthKorea to me sends a very different message - to the US: "If you want to attack Northkorea, you have to get by us first." As long as they are there, the US Navy cannot reach NorthKorea without needing to slam into the Chinese navy first.

China has a common land border with Northkorea. They do not need a fleet offshore NKorea to send a warning. Amassing troops and planes and missile artillery at the border, would be more effective for "communicating". And could be sustained for much longer. But they don't do that. They just move some ships into the path of the US Navy's strike vectors instead. North Korea is an annoyance for China. The US navy and the American presence in South Korea is a major threat.

Conclusion...?

There is only one motive why everybody in the West waits and hopes for the Chinese to get somethign done about Kim (what, btw? Invading?) And that is that the West hopes the Chinese fairy queen will get the hot potatoes out of the fire for us, for we are not willing to care for it ourselves. And even if imaginign for a moment the Chinese are wanting the same as the West: the defusing of the conflict, the Northkoreans have pushed themselves into a psychological corner wherte they canot ge tout again. They are now like a angry dog surrounded by walls of mirrors. They watch the mirrors and freak out more and more every second. Its psychology. I think the US navy already now cannot win a major war with China anymore. The US will not be eager to risk a war with China over Northkorea. Europe is a total fail militarily, and would not even be able to sort this thing out if it would happen not on the other side of the planet,m but in the baltic or mediterranean sea. So: nothing will be done. Prepare to welcome Northkorea in the club of nuclear powers soon.

Finally, there are the southkoreans themnselves. Very possible that they will be the greatest objectors to a military option for the Noireth Korean problem. North Korea cannot eradicate then south militarily,l. but it is very capable to unleash an awful lot of damage and disaster. There were doubts during the cold war that the Westgerman government would ever agree to the use of NATO nukes on German soil (thus rumours hold it that the Allies would not have asked them seriously anyway). I expect to see Sourthkorean reservations at play as well.

I wish and hope I am wrong with all what I write here. But I follow the demands of reasonable thinking here, and reject wishful thinking. That one of the two worst scenarios turn true (nuclear armament of the North accepted, or war), is the most likely outcome currently.

And then there is the temper of the Doinald, and his lackign self-control. I wonder whether the idea of the US military revolting against its commander-in-chief, really is absolutely unimaginable.

[mapuc]

I say Skybird is right on about this.

The question is what can our leader and UN do about it, if China behind UN's back keep on making deals with NK ? Put an embargo on China ?

Markus

[STEED]

US President Donald Trump says North Korea "will be met with fire and fury" if it threatens the US.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40869319

Another step towards Nuclear War? :hmmm:

I can not see ether side backing off.

[mapuc]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40869319

Another step towards Nuclear War? :hmmm:

I can not see ether side backing off.

Had just been reading it-

Hopefully it's nothing more than some little boys in the sand-thing and yelling to each other saying my father can beat your father

Markus

[Skybird]

I say Skybird is right on about this.



I hope I am not.

[mapuc]

I hope I am not.

I meant the analyze of the how China is acting in the "play"

Markus

[Skybird]

I meant the analyze of the how China is acting in the "play"

Markus
I hope I am wrong on that, too, because if I analysed correctly the way they tick, war with the US sooner or later is inevitable.

Really. I want events proving me wrong on all this. The good fairy queen popping up. The one alternative that did not come to my mind. The good daydream that turned true against the odds.

Just more appeasing of NK - that I must reject completely. NK and countries like it should never be allowed to hold certain biological or nuclear weapons. NEVER. If that means to completely obliterate such a country, then so be it.

[Platapus]

It is not a good feeling that we have KJU on one side and Trump on the other. Between them they would have trouble matching the emotional maturity of a teenager.

Calm heads and rational thinking is what is needed. I am not optimistic

[bracer]

Definitly not a good feeling, Platapus.

Let's hope they just talk, as angry, pubertal, teenagers do...
North Korea's military is "examining the operational plan" to strike areas around Guam with medium-to-long-range strategic ballistic missiles, state-run news agency KCNA said early Wednesday local time.The threat comes just hours after US President Donald Trump warned Pyongyang that if they continued to threaten the US, they would "face fire and fury like the world has never seen."
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/08/politics/north-korea-considering-guam-strike-trump/index.html

[Gargamel]

Had just been reading it-

Hopefully it's nothing more than some little boys in the sand-thing and yelling to each other saying my father can beat your father

Markus

Given the two persons involved, that's probably a very apt description.

And now I'm reading that NK has stated they are planning on making pre-emptive strikes on Guam to contain the US military assets stationed there??

Not only are they throwing sand at each other, but one of them just grabbed a rock and threatened the other's little sister.

[Rockstar]

Push the button and l et'em fly.

[Reece]

. . . and kiss your ass goodbye!!:har:

[vienna]

Trump would take military action, but he is impeded by those darn bone spurs...





<O>

[vienna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaEsRQRsXWY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va54WZgPTdY





<O>

[Onkel Neal]

It is not a good feeling that we have KJU on one side and Trump on the other. Between them they would have trouble matching the emotional maturity of a teenager.

Calm heads and rational thinking is what is needed. I am not optimistic

I've never been optimistic even when we had better leaders (Clinton, Bush). Everyone seems content to issue warnings and declare NK will not be allowed to have nukes without actually doing anything other than making treaties that NK easily breaks without significant consequences.

Allowing a rogue state to have nukes and ICBMS... there’s a decent chance that they’re going to get used. Sooner or later the North Korean regime is going to collapse and Kim Jong Un or one of his successors is going to end up captured by a mob and strung up on a lamppost or taken before a firing squad like any tinpot dictator (see Romania’s Ceausescu or Libya’s Gaddafi). If Kim Jong Un or some descendant of his sees his regime collapsing and he’s going to end up dead, what are the odds of him deciding to push the button and make sure that whatever mob or coup is taking him down doesn’t end up with anything except ashes.

[Skybird]

^ This. And I remind of Hitler's reasoning (summarised in my words): "If the German people cannot win this war and cannot survive as heroes against our enemies and cannot defeat America and England and Russia , then Germany deserves to fall and shall not live on anyway, and all cities shall be devastated." I say: Kim ticks like this, too. But as I said earlier, I do not expect anyone in the West to do anything about it. The Donald once again has spoken like thunder, he is a theatre man after all, but it is just hot air. McCain's assessment most likely will be proven right. Its just a thunderstorm of mighty words: the sound fades, and then the air is still again. The threat against Guam means nothing as well. And when nobody does anything right now - then NK will end up with having nuclear ICBMs.