Strike on North Korea

[Rockstar]

It shows intent to do something, whether good odds or not, it does show intent.

Maybe they put to sea to avoid sabotage.

[Mr Quatro]

Another bold move to reassure NK the USA does not like their nukes ... :yep:

I hope they won't be needed ... better off 8,800 miles closer to the real threat of war anyway.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-deploys-b-52s-guam-123602661.html

[vienna]

One part of the NK Olympic participation:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9lMMnJdEck

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm9B0zLphmo


I do really hope this NK cheer squad thing doesn't give Trump any ideas...








<O>

[Platapus]

I do really hope this NK cheer squad thing doesn't give Trump any ideas...

<O>

He might want to grab them by the yaki mandu

[Mr Quatro]

He might want to grab them by the yaki mandu

It would help if President Trump would tell us what he knows about the friends of NK ... share that information with the public so we can be on the same page with our President instead of worried about starting WWIII :o

[Catfish]

^ I just realize there is no english word for "Herrschaftswissen" .. coincidence? :03:

"taking information hostage"?
"knowledge for the sake of action or control"
Does not quite catch it :hmmm:

[Delgard]

Do the people have to be on the same understanding page as the President?

Just a thought based on your wording.

[Mr Quatro]

Do the people have to be on the same understanding page as the President?

Just a thought based on your wording.

President Roosevelt and President Truman come to mind ... people were actually angry with President Truman for using the atomic bomb, but in hindsight it was the correct thing to do rather than expend 100,000 more men in a battle for land control.

[Delgard]

That is a good example. The people did not know.

I don't know the answer to my original question. I was just curious as to others' thoughts on it.

[Jimbuna]

https://i.imgur.com/2CdIrRn.jpg

[vienna]

He might want to grab them by the yaki mandu


https://lulac.org/Donald_Trump_Yelling.jpg


가짜 뉴스 !!!

(gajja nyuseu !!!)









<O>

[ikalugin]

Interesting to note that in the past 5 or so years Russia was procuring the S-300-V4 system, which is MRBM/IRBM capable (export variant rated vs 4000km ranged BMs), as a force wide upgrade.

[Jimbuna]

North Korean leader Kim Jong-un may have put his younger sister Kim Yo-jong in charge of the pariah nation’s powerful state security apparatus, it has emerged.
Kim Yo-Jong's possible new position would put her in charge of home security, police and prosecution

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/26/kim-jong-uns-young-sister-elevated-powerful-position-controlling/

Nothing beats keeping it all in the family.

[Reece]

http://www.2oceansvibe.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/brando08_1280x1024.jpg
I think it's time to take the family out boys!!

[vienna]

Ladies & Gentlemen: Marlon Brando on Air Guitar...








<O>

[Mr Quatro]

Our next president: https://www.aol.com/article/news/2018/02/07/vp-mike-pence-says-us-to-unveil-toughest-yet-sanctions-on-north-korea/23355189/

TOKYO, Feb 7 (Reuters) - U.S. Vice President Mike Pence said on Wednesday that Washington would soon unveil its toughest ever economic sanctions on North Korea as part of a push to get Pyongyang to abandon its nuclear and missile programs.

Pence, speaking to reporters after talks with Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, said that the United States would soon unveil the "toughest and most aggressive round of economic sanctions on North Korea ever."

[Jimbuna]

North Korea holds military parade ahead of Winter Olympics

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-42971097

These parades are usually scheduled for the month of April yet this year it takes place the day before the opening ceremony of the Winter Olympics :hmmm:

Reports coming in say it wasn't as big as usual so I'm wondering if it wasn't cancelled at the last minute to save face in front of the North Korean people and military.

[Mr Quatro]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-42971097

These parades are usually scheduled for the month of April yet this year it takes place the day before the opening ceremony of the Winter Olympics :hmmm:

Reports coming in say it wasn't as big as usual so I'm wondering if it wasn't cancelled at the last minute to save face in front of the North Korean people and military.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbC6dLG_dQY

[Jimbuna]

Well, it doesn't look like the receny NK charm offensive lastes very long :hmmm:

The United States is “doomed to ruin” according to Kim Jong-un’s propaganda mouthpiece.

In an opinion piece published in Rodong Sinmun this week, North Korea blasted Donald Trump’s “empire of evil” and threatened conflict if America did not back off and leave North Korea to accelerate its own missile programme.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/919384/north-korea-war-usa-attack-missile-nuclear-holocaust-donald-trump

[STEED]

^YEA..Daily Express Alert

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7sdy2IiwT8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1v4AXfoOac

[Jimbuna]

Kim Jong-un's Winter Olympics squad will return to North Korea having failed to win any medals amid fears their lack of success in PyeongChang could land them in jail.

The dictator sent 22 athletes to the sports extravaganza in South Korea, supported by an army of 280 cheerleaders.

But they will return to Pyongyang without any of their sports stars making it onto podiums.

In the past, there have been reports of teams being punished or publicly shamed for failing to deliver at major international sports events. The tyrant's grandfather Kim Il Sung is said to have arrested and locked up the entire 1966 World Cup squad in gulags after they were knocked out of the tournament in the second round.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5407881/Will-North-Koreas-Winter-Olympics-squad-face-JAIL.html

Can't say I'm surprised after what happened to the NK World Cup squad of 1966.

[Mr Quatro]

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/02/21/kim-jong-uns-hard-currency-expected-to-run-dry-by-october-south-korean-lawmaker-says.html

Kim Jong Un’s cash flow is expected to run dry by October if international sanctions continue crippling his regime’s economy, a South Korean lawmaker said Wednesday, following months of rumors about North Korea’s financial woes.

You know how they drop hay from helicopters and planes for cattle left high and dry after a flood?

Perhaps we should plan on dropping rice into North Korea for the hungry population and see if they want to shoot us down for humanitarian reason. :o

[Jimbuna]

North Korea will send one of its highest ranking figures, General Kim Yong-chol, to the closing ceremony of the Winter Olympics in Pyeongchang.

Gen Kim was the North's intelligence chief, and is believed to have plotted several attacks on South Korea.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-43153976

Nothing beats inviting the fox into the hen house :doh:

I wonder what winter armchair atheletics discipline he'll be competing in :hmmm:

[Aktungbby]

Currently North and south Korea are 'making nice' in the wake of the Olympic unified women's hockey team. The man keeping the 'back-channels' open for several years now is Suh Hoon,https://images.wsj.net/im-3222?width=620&aspect_ratio=1.5 essentially South Korea's top spy! At a dinner hosted by North Korean leader Kim Jong Un (https://www.wsj.com/articles/kim-jong-un-to-hold-first-known-meeting-with-south-korea-1520244394) for a delegation from the South this week (https://www.wsj.com/articles/south-korean-officials-to-visit-pyongyang-for-talks-1520141474), a bespectacled official leaned forward to talk to a grinning Mr. Kim—a scene captured in a photograph displayed prominently in the North’s largest newspaper.
The 63-year-old career intelligence officer was instrumental in back-channel contacts that led to the two inter-Korean summits in 2000 and 2007. In both those cases, Mr. Suh met extensively with Mr. Kim’s father, North Korea’s then-leader Kim Jong Il.
Mr. Suh—who is set to travel to Washington to brief U.S. officials on his visit to the North and Mr. Kim’s assertions that he is open to disarmament talks (https://www.wsj.com/articles/north-korea-willing-to-talk-denuclearization-with-u-s-1520336095)—has supported engagement with Pyongyang, while at the same time expressing deep doubts about the North’s trustworthiness and intentions. :yep: He is also a vocal supporter of Seoul’s alliance with Washington, and told South Korean lawmakers last year that the country should flatly reject any calls by North Korea to remove U.S. troops from the Korean Peninsula—even if North Korea promises to dismantle its nuclear programs. In July 1997, he became the first South Korean official to be sent to live in the North, as part of efforts to construct light-water reactors in the North following a 1994 deal between Pyongyang and Washington to freeze North Korea’s nuclear program.
He gained more experience in following years, working to arrange summit meetings between the two sides—a process that involved spending time with North Korea’s previous leader, Kim Jong Il, the father of Kim Jong Un.
“Kim Jong Il was fond of Suh,” said Chung Dong-young, a former unification minister and current lawmaker who traveled to the North with Mr. Suh in 2005. In that meeting, aimed at persuading North Korea to return to denuclearization talks, Mr. Chung said he, Mr. Suh, and Kim Jong Il spent five hours together.
In 2008, Mr. Suh wrote a doctoral dissertation on the aims of North Korea’s nuclear-weapons programs, arguing that they were aimed ultimately at letting Pyongyang strike some kind of security deal with Washington.
“The North’s pursuit of nuclear weapons cannot persist as an eternal strategy,” Mr. Suh wrote in his dissertation, which was later published as a book. “Eventually, such a foreign policy will become an institutional constraint limiting North Korea’s growth.” Undoubtedly Kim Jong Un, himself educated abroad in Switzerland and familiar with 63 year old Mr. Suh, with a certain comfort level stemming from his father's rule has read the dissertation. China is still the elephant-in-the-room; writing its own rules with unruly third generation tyrant Kim as it's politico-economic minion. Faced with a superpower on two sides, a prosperous South, a wicked tightening sanction-war and Mr Suh's assertion that the nuclear bargaining chip is ultimately fruitless the worm may be turning. At this stage: All eyes wide open; trust no one; sit and wait.....:ping::ping::ping: :hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

Previous efforts in the past have failed because NK insist on an end to joint military exercises between the US and SK but it is being reported here in the UK that NK are prepared to drop that demand.

Now that Trump has stated he will meet Kim in May there is much speculation as to what NK's true objectives are and I believe Kim is simply playing for time.

Donald Trump said he was ready for a summit with Kim in what would be the first face-to-face encounter between the two countries' leaders and potentially mark a major breakthrough in the crisis.

But North Korea made several promises to disarm in the past and has backtracked every time, leaving experts doubtful over whether it will also break the new commitments.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/929375/north-korea-donald-trump-kim-jong-un-talks-missiles-nuclear

[Mr Quatro]

Peace treaty by May :o

This could be the best thing that ever happened to the USA and Japan and Guam and Hawaii and of course South Korea.

One more problem off President Trump's busy schedule ... sure they will cheat, but don't they all lie and cheat. This has been a trying time for all concerned. :yep:

[Jimbuna]

We can only live in hope of a successful eventual outcome :yep:

[Aktungbby]

We can only live in hope of a successful eventual outcome :yep:

YEAH! TWO MEGALOMANIACS; EACH WITH A BAD HAIRCUT; EACH WITH A 'NUCLEAR BUTTON ON THEIR DESK “The U.S. should know that the button for nuclear weapons is on my table,” Kim said during a televised speech. “The entire area of the U.S. mainland is within our nuclear strike range. ... The United States can never start a war against me and our country.”:hmmm: VS TRUMPS RATHER STALWART RESPONSE(ON THIS OCCASION): North Korean Leader Kim Jong Un just stated that the “Nuclear Button is on his desk at all times.” Will someone from his depleted and food starved regime please inform him that I too have a Nuclear Button, but it is a much bigger & more powerful one than his, and my Button works!:yeah: AS GENERAL CROOK FAMOUSLY SAID DURING THE GEROMIMO APACHE WARS...."IF YOU WISH TO HUNT APACHES YOU NEED APACHES (SCOUTS) OF YOUR OWN"...IT DOESN'T HURT IF FATBOY THINKS THE DONALD IS A LITTLE NUTS! :yep:

[Rhodes]

^ There is an old Vulcan proverb: only Nixon could go to China.

[mapuc]

Overall I hear

- It's a propaganda victory for KJU.

And on some other pages
- Trump doesn't know what he have said yes to.

If it is necessary to give KJU this propaganda points to reach what's most important, then let him have this propaganda victory.

I think Trump know exactly what he is doing.

When I heard about it I was somehow glad, glad that it may end in a real peace treaty and maybe a nuclear free Korean peninsula

And now an off topic thing to this upcoming meeting.

My imagination so to say ran away with me.

I saw scenes from Olympus has fallen, but in a different way-Trump being kidnapped in NK.

End of off topic.

Markus

[Platapus]

We can only hope for the best. Sitting down and talking is a great start. Let's hope that mature negotiation can happen.

[Delgard]

Keeping Trump from making a decision before listening to advisors may bee a chore. I hope his advisors stay close to him. I am glad that John Kelly was also a General.

Pressure needs to stay on and he needs good OPSEC at the poker table.

KJU and advisors are watching and evaluating everything...especially the American press.

...a good chess match.

[Platapus]

Well that didn't take long. Trump is already backing off talking with NK.

[ikalugin]

Previous efforts failed b/c US pulled out of them.

[Jimbuna]

Earlier, the White House said the meeting would not take place unless Pyongyang took "concrete actions".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43353274

Most wise IMHO :yep:

[mapuc]

Late last night, after I had shut down my computer I watched a debate which was a rerun from the afternoon.

In this debate there was four people each with their knowledge about NK, USA or NK-USA relations.

As one of them said-An expert from a Danish university

KJU will never give up on his nuclear program.

When he said those words I remember another article where some said

They would rather eat grass than give up.

One thing is being an expert another thing is having right in a statement about things to come.
I hope these expert, politicians and journalist are wrong and
KJU see there is no need to have nukes.

Markus

[Aktungbby]

YEAH! TWO MEGALOMANIACS; EACH WITH A BAD HAIRCUT;



My imagination so to say ran away with me.




Sitting down and talking is a great start. Let's hope that mature negotiation can happen.(:nope:) WELL TRUMP HAS TO GO; IT'S TRADITION AFTER ALL...'TRICKY DICK' NIXON WENT TO CHINA AND HE WAS ALSO A REPUBLICAN CROOK:arrgh!:...I CAN ONLY IMAGINE THE INITIAL EXCHANGE OF ....IDEAS!!!!:O: http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/08/11/18/432C38AA00000578-4782690-image-a-79_1502472244955.jpg

[Platapus]

KJU will never give up on his nuclear program.




Well, can anyone think of a reason why it would be in North Korea's/KJU's best interest to give up his nuclear weapon program?

The entire basis of the North Korean ideology of Juche is self-reliance and the elimination of outside influence.

This commitment to self-reliance is even in their constitution.

We may not like North Korea having nuclear weapons, but it will be a tough sell to convince them that having nuclear weapons is not in their strategic best interest..... because it is.

[ikalugin]

That is what korean experts seemed to think (that they wont surrender nuclear weapons).

[Jimbuna]

I reckon the best that the west can hope for is a small (in numbers) nuclear capability.

[Platapus]

Also to bring North Korea back into the NPT so we can have IAEA inspections again. That would be a good start.

Part of negotiations is knowing what the other party is willing to compromise on and what they are not.

It is poor planning on expecting the other party to compromise on something they are not willing to compromise.

Demanding is easy, any politician can demand. Negotiation is a lot more difficult.

What I fear is that the US will expect a compromise of NK doing everything that we want (eliminate their nuclear weapons). When NK doesn't, the US will then proclaim that "we tired negotiations, but NK was unreasonable. We have exhausted diplomatic attempts. "

That's not how it works.


This raises two important questions

1. Do we have anyone in the administration with experience in negotiating (not just demanding) international agreements between sovereign leaders?
2. Do we have a president who will listen?

I hope the answer to both questions is yes.

[ikalugin]

Arms control (ie knowing what DPRK has) may be a good thing, but it is not on the table with the current trust issues. Some other measures may be required before we could get to arms control.

For example joint economics projects, student and academic exchanges, etc.

[Catfish]

Arms control[...] is not on the table with the current trust issues. [...]
For example joint economics projects, student and academic exchanges, etc.

True, unfortunately.
Aren't we living in nice times, and the future is even brighter:

Russia and its bully dictator Putin, North Korea's Jong-Un has the nuclear bomb, China thrives in total surveillance and control while just establishing dictatorship, Turkey has Erdoghan as a dictator, Poland is on the best way to it, Trump declares trade war, a.s.o.

Glorious times, looks like the 1930ies all over again, version 2.0.


Regarding economic projects, student and academic exchange this really had me laughing. With North Korea? With China? They already stole all they could get their hands on.
Which student from a free country and a half pound of brain would voluntarily study in Russia, North Korea or China, or any other dictatorship?
Oh, you meant the other way round. Of course...

[Jimbuna]

True, unfortunately.
Aren't we living in nice times, and the future is even brighter:

Russia and its bully dictator Putin, North Korea's Jong-Un has the nuclear bomb, China thrives in total surveillance and control while just establishing dictatorship, Turkey has Erdoghan as a dictator, Poland is on the best way to it, Trump declares trade war, a.s.o.

Glorious times, looks like the 1930ies all over again, version 2.0.


Regarding economic projects, student and academic exchange this really had me laughing. With North Korea? With China? They already stole all they could get their hands on.
Which student from a free country and a half pound of brain would voluntarily study in Russia, North Korea or China, or any other dictatorship?
Oh, you meant the other way round. Of course...

You should have had a career in politics because your wasted in whatever it is you actually do :03:

[Mr Quatro]

Regarding economic projects, student and academic exchange this really had me laughing. With North Korea? With China? They already stole all they could get their hands on ...

Brings up the question of how can they possibly read all of the stuff they steal in English and then translate it to Korean. Takes a lot of man and woman power to do that not to mention the chance they will see that American is much greater than the repressed society they represent.

I want this peace deal to go through and open up the gates of the DMZ take out the land mines and let freedom roar. :yeah:

[Catfish]

Something feels wrong about the Trump-Kim meeting

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2018/03/14/somethings-not-right-about-the-kim-trump-summit-and-its-not-what-you-think/

[Platapus]

an interesting article. Thanks for posting that link

[Reece]

As the administration prepares for a possible Trump-Kim meeting, U.S. officials should, at a minimum, take a close look at what factors are driving Kim’s current outreach and Seoul’s motivations for encouraging U.S.-North Korea dialogue, coordinate and consult with South Korea and Japan, and lower expectations that one meeting between Kim and Trump could “solve” a decades-long conflict. :hmmm:

[Onkel Neal]

Yeah, I don't believe North Korea is sincere for a minute. There's no way they really intend to denuclearize.

... unless the US/SK are actually gearing up for a major strike and we just don't know anything about it. I doubt that.

[Rockstar]

This meeting should be avoided at all cost, it's just going give Un what he wants. A foot in the door to the world stage. Offering him free publicity by declaring him and N.K. a member and major player in the ever increasing club of nuclear powers. Which also equates to more power at home.

We haven't had a administration yet, even sincere feel good we are world negotiator ones, able to break bread with N.K. I wouldn't expect anything different with this one.

I say we just keep the pressure on and keep turning it up until he does something really stupid and then either kick his arse or see if his own get rid of him.

[Mr Quatro]

Yeah, I don't believe North Korea is sincere for a minute. There's no way they really intend to denuclearize.

... unless the US/SK are actually gearing up for a major strike and we just don't know anything about it. I doubt that.

It is hard for me to believe too, but I think they are very sincere and see that NK has no future in the modern world today with the economic sanctions that they have been burdened with.

Look at this statement: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/north-korean-leader-kim-jong-un-has-invited-president-trump-to-a-meeting/2018/03/08/021cb070-2322-11e8-badd-7c9f29a55815_story.html?utm_term=.b5ba71999bb4

A senior White House official said the North Korean leader’s message included a “commitment to denuclearization” and emphasized that the United States would demand verification that the North is meeting its obligations in any prospective deal.

If Trump doesn't bolster and blow the tender oriental mind of Kim Joung un's mind, we could see real fruit come out of these peace talks.

Peace between NK and SK that is. :yep:

Any denuclearization of NK would certainly mean the USA leaving SK, which I think would be a good trade off and save 20,000 innocent soldiers at the DMZ at the same time.

I think only good will come out of this, but who can trust them (North Korea) not me :o

I can't find it online now, but I heard that the prelude to these talks is that the US should guarantee the safety of North Korea if they give up their nuclear program. Like we did with Iran on cyber warfare, remember that little clause in the Iranian deal?

[Onkel Neal]

So, either I am in the Twilight Zone, or maybe there is a real sliver of optimism going on here?

China says North Korea's Kim pledged commitment to denuclearization
https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1H305W

[Jimbuna]

I still wouldn't trust the bugga and I'm wondering if such a commitment will be seen as a sign of weakness by those who would oppose him in his own country.

[Aktungbby]

I still wouldn't trust the bugga and I'm wondering if such a commitment will be seen as a sign of weakness by those who would oppose him in his own country. https://images.wsj.net/im-5338?width=1260&aspect_ratio=1.5<Precisely what poor premier-for-life Xi is thinking...while keeping a straight face for the photo!:()1: China has long been North Korea’s only treaty ally and largest trade partner. But that relationship has soured as Beijing has stepped up enforcement of sanctions, which economists say are starting to bite North Korea’s economy. Mr. Kim declined to meet a Chinese envoy who had recently visited Pyongyang.
There's some serious 'suckin' up' goin' on here-exactly who's the 'sucker' is unclear....So, either I am in the Twilight Zone, or maybe there is a real sliver of optimism going on here? Faced with a superpower on two sides, a prosperous South, a wicked tightening sanction-war and Mr Suh's assertion that the nuclear bargaining chip is ultimately fruitless the worm may be turning. At this stage: All eyes wide open; trust no one; sit and wait.....:ping::ping::ping: :hmmm:

[Mr Quatro]

That must be one of those kiss and make up pictures ... I see lipstick on both of them :D

[mapuc]

At first I thought it was KJU who made this uninspected travel to Beijing, as an desperat action, trying to get the Chinese to remember their friendly relations throughout the history and thereby ease on the sanction against KJU.

Now I have learned it was the Chinese leader who invited KJU.

Markus

[Aktungbby]

That must be one of those kiss and make up pictures ... I see lipstick on both of them :D
NOT AS RED AS THOSE FLAGS THOUGH!:O:

[Jimbuna]

Xi Jinping is probably thinking 'This guy really needs to do something about his hairstylist'.

[Commander Wallace]

Xi Jinping is probably thinking 'This guy really needs to do something about his hairstylist'.

^ :haha: Trump is no doubt meeting him for the summit so Trump can give him the name of his hair stylist.

[Reece]

:haha: Maybe swap idea's!!:haha:

[Highbury]

^ :haha: Trump is no doubt meeting him for the summit so Trump can give him the name of his hair stylist.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-bavdQm0HJcY/WjKtXprOGoI/AAAAAAABiNM/_Nxoh54cGacyPUG6GQUb3g5op5fJZ8EAQCLcBGAs/s1600/image003.png

[Commander Wallace]

:haha: Maybe swap idea's!!:haha:

Could they get any worse ? :haha:




https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-bavdQm0HJcY/WjKtXprOGoI/AAAAAAABiNM/_Nxoh54cGacyPUG6GQUb3g5op5fJZ8EAQCLcBGAs/s1600/image003.png




That's hysterical. Too funny. :haha:

[Jimbuna]

This is how nuclear war with North Korea would or could unfold....an interesting read from the Washington Post.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/this-is-how-nuclear-war-with-north-korea-would-unfold/2017/12/08/4e298a28-db07-11e7-a841-2066faf731ef_story.html

[Delgard]

The writer demonstrates a low opinion for the parties mentioned and those not mentioned. The article will get seriously considered for the drama it infuses in those that think like him or are open to such fantasizing.

Yes, anything is possible and nobody knows 100%, but his projection should not be followed.

The Washington Post published it, not out of accuracy, but for the drama.

[Reece]

Would make for a nice movie though!!:yep:

[Mr Quatro]

Would make for a nice movie though!!:yep:

I would rather see it at the movies than sit in my bunker and wonder what happen :o

[Aktungbby]

I would rather see it at the movies than sit in my bunker and wonder what happen :o Within a hundred millionths of a second, a series of thirty-two charges went off around the device’s core, compressing the sphere of plutonium inside from about the size of an orange to that of a lime. Then the gadget exploded. http://www.angelfire.com/tx/atomicveteran/images/explode.gif http://www.angelfire.com/tx/atomicveteran/images/img54.jpg
https://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/hiroshimatrinity/Atomic%20Bomb%20Goggles%20text.jpgVS https://imgcs.artprintimages.com/img/print/print/j-r-eyerman-opening-night-screening-of-first-color-3-d-movie-bwana-devil-paramount-theater-hollywood-ca_a-g-5277618-4990704.jpg?w=900&h=900< premier of first 3D flick: Bwana Devil:()1: soda speke:yep:

[STEED]

North Korea: No need for more missile tests

North Korean leader Kim Jong-un has said the country will suspend all missile tests and shut down a nuclear test site, state media say.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-43846488

[Reece]

I wonder how many underground storage bunkers he has?:hmmm:

[Mr Quatro]

I wonder how many underground storage bunkers he has?:hmmm:

I think maybe The Republic of China or is it the Peoples Republic of China has promised to protect North Korea in order to bring peace to the area :yep:


http://th04.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2014/354/4/8/prc_vs_roc_by_19north95-d8ahxgv.png

[Jimbuna]

Not sure I trust a word they say anymore....too sudden and too much given :hmmm:

[Skybird]

Its a non-story. Their TV also said they would not proliferate their nuclear technology. Anyone believing that...?

I fear that populist Donald will accept backroom deals on easing sanction just to get some positive headlines for himself, or those US hostages aboard Air Force One. He has no interest in longterm strategies and perspectives, just lives for the next tweet. Who cares if loosening sanctions allow NK to gain more modern technology it can use militarily, if he scores in the next polls a bit?

What NK claims it does, is no standard to base on. Control is the only acceptable standard. And makes sense only if NK hands over the technicall means to produces nukes and ICBMs. Today they said this. Tomorrow they say somethign different. Thats is no basis for suddenly trusting them.

Japan reacts with much more caution here. And probably is far more realistic. Maybe because it is much closer to NK and China, than the Donald is?

[mapuc]

I haven't kids of my own, almost some of my friends or family have
And I guess some of you who have kids know these things.

When a child get a punishment for having broken some role in the home-Can sometimes be oh so gentle and perfect -
I don't know what the correct psychological word for this is.

I have done it myself and I have seen my friends family kids doing this after we had got a punishment of some kind.

I once got a 14 days home jail.
I was down my friend had a party and I really wanted to join this party

So I became so perfect and so in-speech with my parent all in hope for an ease on this punishment.

Wonder if KJU is doing the same
Trying to become in-speech and so perfect in USA and other countries view so they ease on the sanction.

Markus

[em2nought]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-43846488

Problem solved, we can pull all of our guys out with our promise to never return. South Korea and Japan can take care of their own defenses. Troops from Korea, Hola and welcome to the US-Mexican border start building. Muy bien! :up:

[Rockstar]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-43846488

Ease tensions with empty words, promote North South unity, get everyone on the Korean peninsula together singing kumbaya. South Korea sees the U.N. as non essential to there security. From this point on if the U.N. doesn't play along they will be seen as the aggressor. U.N. becomes a non player in the region. China wins the battle without firing a shot!


All this over a country that isn't any bigger than the Great State of Pennsylvania.

[Jimbuna]

‘Don’t trust Kim’: Defector’s warning to US President Donald Trump over North Korea’s lead.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/949576/kim-defector-donald-trump-north-korea-kim-jong-un

[Delgard]

May be that is a good tactic to use against KJU. The requirement of demonstrated actions far above ours.

All else fails, continue increasing sanctions.

[Platapus]

Trust but verify

If we don't have a way to measure compliance, we don't really have an agreement.

[Mr Quatro]

Problem solved, we can pull all of our guys out with our promise to never return. South Korea and Japan can take care of their own defenses. Troops from Korea, Hola and welcome to the US-Mexican border start building. Muy bien! :up:


em2nought should be the (SOS) Secretary of State :yep:

[STEED]

Beware of North Korean leader saying things that sound good. :03:

[em2nought]

em2nought should be the (SOS) Secretary of State :yep:

I'd promise not to do anything Bolton would do. :salute:

[Delgard]

Having a good National Security Advisor to join the National Security Council is very important. The SECDef and SECState also bring much to the table.

The NSC seems to have its hands full with all the problems in the world that affect the U.S. The problems have been clearly growing over the years. Better communication will, hopefully, come about.

Dealing with these problems has become expensive in both monies and our citizens.

[Onkel Neal]

Historic day
https://www.joe.ie/news/kim-jong-un-south-korea-623917

I would have liked it even better if The Rock had jumped out from behind a bush and beat the hell outta Kim Un :03:

Is it possible this could actually lead somewhere...? For the North Korean people's sake, I hope so.

[Jimbuna]

I sat up most of the night watching it live and without wishing to appear to be overly cynical I can't help thinking to myself that this could be one of the biggest political con jobs for decades.

If Kim Jong-un gives up everything he has achieved despite the human sacrifices he has forced on his people during the whole sad process, I can see his military seeing that as a sign of weakness and bringing about change at the top.

China must have given some serious guarantees around security and protection to him.

[Mr Quatro]

They sure looked like they were happy to me ...

https://s.abcnews.com/images/US/WireAP_58fdb816c9ac4b949af8379cb5df6d0c_12x5_992.j pg

Now for Trump and Kim to smile four or five weeks from now. Memorial Day weekend sounds about right.

Boeing should give Kim a Boeing 777 for a peace treaty present so he can travel in style.

Someone is praying (seeking God's perfect will)

North Korea doesn't even believe in God, but a whole lot of people in South Korea do. :yep:

[Rockstar]

I think when Fatboy went to China he got his marching orders. Almost overnight it goes from hermit kingdom to international kumbaya moment. Promoting peace and prosperity on the Korean peninsula. Im wary of all this.

The benefit goes to China. Like I said earlier they are attempting to win the peninsula and region without firing a shot.

[Aktungbby]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/north-korea-nuclear-test-site-mantapsan-mountain-collapse-unusable-kim-jong-un/ (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/north-korea-nuclear-test-site-mantapsan-mountain-collapse-unusable-kim-jong-un/) THE REAL REASON KIM APPEARS SO REASONABLE ....FOR THE MOMENT....:oops: The data in the latest Chinese study was collected following the most powerful of North Korea's six nuclear device tests on Sept. 3, which is believed to have triggered four earthquakes over the following weeks.
The University of Science and Technology of China paper, said the first of those earthquakes, which occurred 8 ½ minutes after the explosion, was "an onsite collapse toward the nuclear test center," while those that followed were an "earthquake swarm" in similar locations.
"In view of the research finding that the North Korea nuclear test site at Mantapsan has collapsed, it is necessary to continue to monitor any leakage of radioactive materials that may have been caused by the collapse,":k_confused:

[Mr Quatro]

Good find Aktungbby ^

[Aktungbby]

Historic day

I would have liked it even better if The Rock had jumped out from behind a bush and beat the hell outta Kim Un :03:

GADZOOKS!!! THIS WAS ALREADY DISCUSSED IN YOUR FAVORITE THREAD http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2270386&postcount=844 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2270386&postcount=844) NO NEED FOR 'THE ROCK' https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f1/Dwayne_Johnson_2%2C_2013.jpg/220px-Dwayne_Johnson_2%2C_2013.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dwayne_Johnson_2,_2013.jpg); WE BILGERATS ALREADY HAVE OUR INSIDE MAN-DENNIS RODMAN: https://img1.etsystatic.com/051/0/10152812/il_340x270.687526125_m851.jpg:D: NO WONDER THE KOREAN SPAMMERS SHELLACKED US AWHILE BACK:PURE VENGEANCE!:yep:
:x :()1: HOWEVER IF HE PROVES TO BE SINCERE, WE SHOULD GRANT HIM HONORARY MEMBERSHIP IN :subsim:...:O:https://secure.i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02942/Kim_Jong_Un_submar_2942993c.jpg

[Delgard]

Rocketboy, I noticed that, too. Obviously, previous actions put caution into consideration. I also saw some talk of NK getting into dire straits financially.

The economics, military and sanctions all have taken a toll. I think the U.S. hardliners have moved NK into a corner and China said no to a bailout. China also wants stability on the pennisula.

I hope SK is talking relief and unification pending a secure and isolated retirement for KJU.

I hope Trump keeps a hard line with Japan, SK, and China's support.

Obviously, those same countries need to assume responsibility for NK's problems.

[mapuc]

It could be combination of several things that have made KJU talkable

Where the lasted comment from Aktungbby could be one of them

I hope it will bring freedom and prosperity to the North Korean people.

Markus

[Skybird]

Kim did not say "denuclearization" himself, not a single time. Its always the others saying it - those who want him to say it, that is. But he didn't. Its like a parrot trying to make his human owner talk what the parrot wants.

Its not the first time that NK and SK are at this point, and things look rosy and promising. See what has come of it.

Words are cheap, symbolic acts are just symbolic acts - dust and shadow. I believe in the better new world when I see it being there.

Mind you, the man everybody now is applauding and wants to sign treaties with, is a murderer, torturer and warmongerer, who lets his people starve and suffer, and abuses millions of innocent people mentally and physically. And one wants to trust such a wicked man all of a sudden?

Sounds like a hopeless case of chamberlainitis major to me.

Go ahead, for heavens sake, if you think that is what you must. But never let Kim's head shift out of your reticle's centre - not even for one second.

[Skybird]

P.S. Recently there was a "secret" visit by a "highranking American official" :) in North Korea. One wonders what it was that the Donald thought he wanted to tell Kim. I doubt he threatened war on him, more likely that he offered him a deal, great dealmaker that the Donald praises himself as. Watch out, America, you might find out later on that you do not like the terms and conditions of this deal, if it exists. Its never a good idea to leave longterm planning to somebody with the attention span of how long it takes to fire a tweet, and with the education level of a talking cactus.

[Aktungbby]

Watch out, America, you might find out later on that you do not like the terms and conditions of this deal, if it exists. WELL WITH THE DONALD CONSIDERING BACKING OUT OF THE IRAN NUCLEAR DEAL-FOR PRACTISE!!??- I'M NOT TOO WORRIED ABOUT IT....YET!:hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

Its never a good idea to leave longterm planning to somebody with the attention span of how long it takes to fire a tweet, and with the education level of a talking cactus.

I take it you're not a fan then? :)

[STEED]

Time for America to get back on the horse and give them CENSORED criminal Russians a CENSORED good thrashing and put them back in the box.

That was said to me by a mate who believes America has been far to fixed on NK and letting Russia get away with all sorts.

:hmmm:

[Skybird]

I take it you're not a fan then? :)
Due to him I want to use anti-flaky shampoo excessively, but I'm already as bald as the moon.

[STEED]

Due to him I want to use anti-flaky shampoo excessively, but I'm already as bald as the moon.

http://www.hash.cn/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/funny-shy-moon.jpg

In before Jim....Yes result. :haha:

[Reece]

A whip a whip, my kingdom for a whip!!:D

[Skybird]

"Bald" not meaning "kahlköpfig"?

[Mr Quatro]

http://www.ibtimes.com/koreas-unite-time-kim-jong-un-thought-2-time-zones-painful-2676466

North Korean leader Kim Jong Un said his country will reset their clocks to match that of its neighboring country, during a summit with South Korean leader Moon Jae-in on Friday.

The decision to move its nation’s clock forward by 30 minutes and unifying the time zones of the two halves of the Korean peninsula was taken by Kim after he found it “heartbreaking” to see two clocks showing different times for Pyongyang and Seoul, hanging at the summit’s venue at the border village of Panmunjom.
"Since it was we who changed the time standard, we will return to the original one. You can make it public," Kim was quoted as saying by Yoon.

[Delgard]

The trick is finding the changes that KJU does that actually make a difference towards continued heavy sanctions or peace.

I hope Trump plays the bad cop along with the UN and Japan. SK playing the good cop.

So far, NK has only done some lip service. NKs nuke testing site has not been operational for 7 months, and they can't fix it. "Closing" it in May is nothing.

Just have to keep watching to see who scores points. :)

[Onkel Neal]

Just for the record, I vote this is a scam by the attention-hungry Kim. It sounds nice but I cannot buy that the NKs will give up all their advances in nuclear arms.

[Skybird]

Their testing sites, a mountain area, has collapsed, due to geological instability it cannot be used for testing nuclear explosions anymore. Not before this event Kim announced, all of a sudden, that they want to close that site, and he sells it as an end to the NKorean ambition to get nukes...?

Same as with Iran. Iran never stopped wanting to build a bomb. Netanyahu now showed if no new evidence at least that the Iranians have based their negotiations on massive lying about the amount of their data collection (he also compromised the enormous capabilities of the Israeli intel service, which imo was a mistake, for his demonstration will not convince anyone in Europe anyway, but will wake up Israel'S enemies).

I think its just a question of time until we will learn - or will be taught - for the better about Kim's real intentions. He was a wolf in sheep's clothing during his visit.

[Catfish]

I do not believe one word any side says.
It all stinks to the high heavens.

[Rockstar]

Are you telling us you're in the high heavens?

[Aktungbby]

I think nothing in the Korean problem is what it seems to be, and most likely China plays a double game here. They want a second front against the US in the Asian waters battlezone area, and that is N-Korea.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2505092&postcount=219 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2505092&postcount=219) http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=230409&page=23 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=230409&page=23) Since KimmyBBY cannot be insane and keep his head in a country like N. Korea:/\\chop:rotfl2: his actions continue to impress me that he is the mineshaft canary for China to test Western RIMPAC resolve by any means especially as the illegal expansion into Tibet and the South China Sea are still #1 on China's longterm economic expansion agenda. Our distracted immediate focus on N. Korea thus serves China's long-term interests. Continued US presence on the Korean peninsula is distinctly antithetical to that geopolitical interest, much as Cuba, and egotistical Castro, was the patsy in the 60's missile crises test of the Monroe Doctrine. In that matter, we owe one to Mr Mikoyan: TODAY'S WSJ ARTICLE-OVERLORD CHINA IS TIPPING ITS GREEDY VELVET-HAND HERE : BEIJING—China’s sending its foreign minister to North Korea as Beijing seeks to avoid being sidelined by its neighbor’s top-level negotiations (https://www.wsj.com/articles/kim-jong-un-and-south-korean-leader-to-pursue-peace-deal-denuclearization-1524822022?mod=article_inline&mod=article_inline) with Seoul and Washington.
Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi is scheduled to visit North Korea on Wednesday and Thursday at the invitation of his North Korean counterpart, Ri Yong Ho, the Chinese Foreign Ministry said on Monday.
Though no agenda was released, Mr. Wang’s visit comes on the heels of Friday’s summit (https://www.wsj.com/articles/where-north-and-south-korea-meet-1524782494?mod=article_inline&mod=article_inline) between the leaders of North and South Korea, where the two sides agreed to seek a peace treaty to end the Korean War. On Sunday, the South Korean presidential office said the North’s Kim Jong Un had committed to closing its nuclear test site (https://www.wsj.com/articles/north-korea-to-shut-down-nuclear-test-site-in-may-1524971627?mod=article_inline&mod=article_inline) in May.
With planning under way for a summit (https://www.wsj.com/articles/north-koreas-kim-jong-un-confirms-summit-with-u-s-1523317937?mod=article_inline&mod=article_inline) between Mr. Kim and President Donald Trump in coming weeks, analysts said Beijing is anxious to gain insight into those negotiations and secure a Chinese role in any multilateral talks that might follow.
“One very important thing for China is to know what happens, as it happens, before it happens. China needs to feel it knows what is going on,” said James Reilly, an associate professor of international relations at the University of Sydney. He pointed to China’s and North Korea’s strained relations of recent years, saying “trust has been damaged and this is the process of rebuilding it and opening communication.”
China is North Korea’s only ally and biggest trade partner. Relations soured over North Korea’s nuclear and missile programs and more recently over Beijing’s tighter enforcement of trade sanctions.
Mr. Kim made a fence-mending trip to Beijing in late March—his first ever meeting with President Xi Jinping —to secure China’s backing ahead of its recent diplomatic efforts, analysts said, and to pave the way for loosening United Nations sanctions that have squeezed the North Korean economy. Foreign Minister Wang may discuss plans for a follow-up visit by Mr. Xi to Pyongyang, analysts said.
Chinese officials have long urged Pyongyang and Washington to hold direct talks.
Amid the recent weeks of fast-moving diplomacy, however, China has grown concerned that it is being marginalized in negotiations over the Korean Peninsula and that a potential agreement between Pyongyang, Seoul and Washington might not reflect Chinese interests, diplomats and analysts said.
Hosting Chinese Foreign Minister Wang and briefing him on Mr. Kim’s meeting with South Korean President Moon Jae-in is a way “to show North Korea really respects China and wants to keep close coordination with China going forward,” said Zhao Tong, a fellow at the Carnegie-Tsinghua Center for Global Policy in Beijing.
Mr. Zhao said China likely will want to secure a role in the dismantling of North Korea’s test site. South Korea’s presidential office said on Sunday that Mr. Kim committed to close the site by May and to discuss inviting U.S. and South Korean experts and journalists to verify the closure.
Also likely on Mr. Wang’s agenda is securing China’s involvement in negotiations with the U.S. and North and South Korea on turning the armistice that ended the 1950-53 Korean War into a peace treaty, Mr. Zhao said.
In a joint declaration issued at Friday’s inter-Korean summit, North and South Korea agreed to “actively pursue” either three-way talks involving the U.S., or four-way ones also involving China, on establishing a permanent peace regime. CHINA IS KEEPING A WATCHFUL EYE ON ITS FAT BOYTOY! IMHO: THEY'VE NO BUSINESS INVITING THEMSELVES TO A TRUMP-MOON-FATBOY SUMMIT AT THE DMV.

[Jimbuna]

I do not believe one word any side says.
It all stinks to the high heavens.

Agreed but I've even less faith in anything Kim says.

#1084
I sat up most of the night watching it live and without wishing to appear to be overly cynical I can't help thinking to myself that this could be one of the biggest political con jobs for decades.

If Kim Jong-un gives up everything he has achieved despite the human sacrifices he has forced on his people during the whole sad process, I can see his military seeing that as a sign of weakness and bringing about change at the top.

China must have given some serious guarantees around security and protection to him.

[em2nought]

The real con job here has been getting the US taxpayer to fund (whatever the hell this is) for almost the last 70 years. We walked away from Vietnam and that didn't turn out so awful. :hmmm:

[Mr Quatro]

Aktungbby posted:

China needs to feel it knows what is going on,” said James Reilly, an associate professor of international relations at the University of Sydney.

I think China already knows what is going on ... they already had a little secret meeting between Kim and president for life in China remember a few weeks ago on Kim's fathers private rail train.

China has probably (more than likely) already promised to nuke America if we do anything to NK and Kim is all buttery with Sk over something. I didn't even know Kim could smile till last week.

Whatever is going to happen the USA will win and I hope our troops can come home leaving a big hole in SK's ability to protect itself on it's own.

Good grief seventy (70) years is long enough to wait for peace :yep:

[Rockstar]

lol mention leaving Europe/NATO and everyone gets their panties in a bunch over that idea. But but but Russia! Putin! The Evil Empire! They'll get us if you leave. The U.S. accounts for almost half of the world’s military expenditures and provides defense guarantees to prosperous, populous allies throughout Asia and Europe. Wandering the globe attempting to create democracy and stability out of nothing. At the same time we're propping up dictatorships in the Persian Gulf and Central Asia.

Maybe it is time to let others take care of themselves. Maybe instead of being in everyone else's business we should start acting as a true Great Power. Rather than seeking to control everything and manipulate everyone overseas, we should go home and get on with life. Put a red box on the front door that says 'Break Glass in Case of Emergency"

Better yet. A sign that says:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/11/c5/c0/11c5c0aa0abb30f2b9d919691329bc24.jpg

[Jimbuna]

So....a return to isalationism?

[August]

Don't worry guys the Democrats got this!

https://i.imgur.com/x8VVzm7.jpg

[em2nought]

Don't worry guys the Democrats got this!

https://i.imgur.com/x8VVzm7.jpg
Anything to make Trump look bad, who cares about the consequences.

How about instead of calling it a return to Isolationism (which I don't recall ever having hurt us) we call it a return to "Speak softly, and carry a big stick."
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/42/President_Roosevelt_-_Pach_Bros.tif/lossy-page1-424px-President_Roosevelt_-_Pach_Bros.tif.jpg

[vienna]

Unmitigated bull. The website shown it the upper right-hand corner of the picture is that of a news parody site, a source of genuine fake news. So, either you are being sarcastic, ironic, or perhaps you have been duped...

Technically, the premise given in the phony picture is valid. Trump cannot, on his own, end the Korean War. There are several parties who are signatories to the Korean Armistice Agreement (there is not actual "peace treaty", yet) and all must give their 'OK' to any final treaty, so Trump could not act unilaterally and declare peace; additionally, any peace treaty must be ratified by 2/3rds of the US Senate and any effort to circumvent that Constitutional provision would be, in fact, un-Constitutional, and, perhaps, an impeachable offense...

Long story short: unless there is a very sudden ramping up in governmental speed by all parties involved, it is going to be a long time before a final treaty is completed...

...certainly past the time of Trump's impeachment... :D








<O>

[Skybird]

Economically, isolationism does nto work well in a world where the US depends absolutely on foreign investors buyin g US bonds, where the dollar and other Fiat currecny regimes rule and are seen as vital of not getting their masks teared down, and globalised production chains and globalised economy. Also, much of America'S power is soft power, and an important share of that spoft power comes in form of IT dominance - which again works and unfolds globally only.

Military isolationism is linked to these economic interests, they need to be militarily defended.

The US imports more than it exports I think, like almost every major empire before, the centre is ever increasing its dependency not only on the controlled periphery, but even on that what lies behind that periphery, and the economical influx from there.

If isolation is America'S option, it cannot just move to, it needs preparation by redesigning the whole economical structure of the US. And that will take more time than just one or two legislation periods. It can be done, I think. But not as easily and quickly as many think, or the staff in the Donaldinarium desires. Plus it leaves the stage to hostile factions like China, Russia, the Islamic world - and the US it will be prone to them growing strong.

Its not as if the others stop pushing just because America maybe chooses to stop wanting to contain them. History teaches that empires cannot afford to not react to challenges on their peripheral borders or their central cultural, economical, social structures. Where they do, they start to decline, and finally fall apart.

[vienna]

...

How about instead of calling it a return to Isolationism (which I don't recall ever having hurt us) we call it a return to "Speak softly, and carry a big stick."
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/42/President_Roosevelt_-_Pach_Bros.tif/lossy-page1-424px-President_Roosevelt_-_Pach_Bros.tif.jpg


Interestingly, the oft-cited quote by TR is, as so many other 'snippet' quotes, lacking in full context. The TR quote first appeared in a letter sent by TR to Henry L. Sprague, on January 26th 1900. Here is a link about the quote:

http://wist.info/roosevelt-theodore/16285/

Of further interest in the full quote are these admonitions by TR regarding the "Big Stick" and those who would use it:



"Right here let me make as vigorous a plea as I know how in favor of saying nothing that we do not mean, and of acting without hesitation up to whatever we say. A good many of you are probably acquainted with the old proverb, 'Speak softly and carry a big stick — you will go far.' If a man continually blusters, if he lacks civility, a big stick will not save him from trouble, and neither will speaking softly avail, if back of the softness there does not lie strength, power. In private life there are few beings more obnoxious than the man who is always loudly boasting, and if the boaster is not prepared to back up his words, his position becomes absolutely contemptible. So it is with the nation. It is both foolish and undignified to indulge in undue self-glorification, and, above all, in loose-tongued denunciation of other peoples. Whenever on any point we come in contact with a foreign power, I hope that we shall always strive to speak courteously and respectfully of that foreign power."


Kinda sounds a bit like he could be referring to our current "Blusterer/Boatser-In-Chief"...









<O>

[Jimbuna]

Three Americans released by North Korea ahead of Trump-Kim talks, US president announces

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44056972

Most welcome news but not all that surprising when taking the current climate and expected meeting in the near future into account.

[Onkel Neal]

Break your own news? Is that fake news?

[STEED]

North Korea releases detained Americans ahead of anticipated Trump ...
Reuters UK-2 hours ago
Pompeo in North Korea ahead of Trump-Kim talks
BBC News-13 hours ago
Ahead of Trump-Kim Summit, North Korea Releases 3 American ...
The Diplomat-1 hour ago
North Korea frees 3 American prisoners ahead of a planned Trump ...
In-Depth-Washington Post-3 hours ago
The Latest: Trump 'appreciates' Kim's release of 3 Americans
Live Updating-Kansas City Star-24 minutes ago

Google news search.

[vienna]

Break your own news? Is that fake news?

As fake as it gets...


http://breakyourownnews.com/


I hear the Alt-Right and the Trumpers love it...










<O>

[Onkel Neal]

Well, to be fair, liberals and Dems have CNN, NPR, and the Washington Post

[Mr Quatro]

I like this goodby :yep:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-missiles/pompeo-expected-to-return-from-north-korea-with-detained-americans-south-korean-official-idUSKBN1IA08I


North Korean official was quoted as saying “You should make care that they do not make the same mistakes again,” and that “This was a hard decision.”

[vienna]

Well, to be fair, liberals and Dems have CNN, NPR, and the Washington Post

Oh, you mean the sites that actually have researched reportage?...

Speaking of fake news, did anyone else happen to see the fiasco over the alleged 'official' questions Mueller was supposed to want to ask Trump? After the list was 'leaked' and Trump and his minions expressed their outrage over the "disgraceful" leak, it turned out Trump's own legal team actually leaked the alleged list, and, what's more, the list wasn't even officially from the Mueller team, it was from a list compiled by a member of the Trump legal team who had compiled, based on his 'analysis' of possible questions Mueller might ask Trump. Somehow the Trumpers didn't seem to be in a hurry to clean their own house of leakers or disseminators of actual fake news. I guess that old double standard and blatant hypocrisy of "The Swamp" is alive and well, and thriving, over at the White House...








<O>

[Reece]

Funny that the three detainees are Kim's!! :hmmm:

[vienna]

Well, the NK leader has been known to be a bit hard on his relatives... :D










<O>

[Reece]

I wonder who will be kidnapped next!:hmmm:

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/1/1c/Harry_Kim%2C_2371.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20061013075340&path-prefix=en

[Jimbuna]

Well, the NK leader has been known to be a bit hard on his relatives... :D










<O>

:haha:

[Onkel Neal]

Oh, you mean the sites that actually have researched reportage?...

I seriously doubt there is much value in "researched reportage" that is steeped in bias and political agendas. Have you listed to NPR lately?

[vienna]

I seriously doubt there is much value in "researched reportage" that is steeped in bias and political agendas. Have you listed to NPR lately?

I do listen to NPR, off and on, usually as a means of getting another viewpoint on some matter or another, but I always keep in mind the particular slant or bias of NPR, much as I do when I listen to Hannity or read some Alt-Right website. The key to actually finding the wheat from the chaff is to make the effort to get as much data as possible and distill from that data the core details and discard the rhetoric, posturing, pandering and other ornamental bias. There is a reason civilized, fair courts are structured to give both sides in a legal matter the opportunity to present their case and have it adjudicated by either a judge or a jury; anything else is little more than a kangaroo or 'lynching court'. The idea idea of independent thought is exactly what it says: thinking independently...

Perhaps it is a result of having competed in debate tournaments, back in school, where we had to argue for or against a subject or idea in alternating stances, one round Pro, next round Con, next round Pro again, etc., but I have come to value seeking both sides of and argument before trying to make a decision as to my views. I have also come to value the fact what you might think you know to be true may not necessarily be the whole truth if your only source for that "truth" has an agenda or bias it is trying to foist on you. An ill-informed decision or belief is a poor one, at best...

Getting back to the subject matter of the thread, I am getting the impression Trump, and by extension, the US, are being seriously played by NK and China. A few days ago, I saw an article in the China Daily (the Chinese Govt.'s English language newspaper; it is a "foreign agent" under FARA) about a meeting between Kim and a very top level China official related to the denuclearization of NK and the upcoming meeting with Trump and the article made it appear China is far more involved with what is going on in NK than Western media has been covering. Within the past couple of days, the Chinese leader XI ans NK's Kim had another surprise meeting with the subject matter, again, reported as further discussions on NK's nukes. I suspect the change in posture of NK has less to do with whatever Trump has been up to and more with whatever NK & CN have been cooking up. With the sudden, if limited, participation of NK in the Olympics, the offer of a summit with Trump, the unprecedented visit and summit with SK's Moon in SK, and some other little reported activities by NK and CN, it would seem CN/NK are setting up some sort of PR effort to cast KIm as the initiator of peace in the Koreas and marginalizing Trump and the Us in the peace process. There really is not very much for Trump to do or accomplish at the upcoming summit since many of the 'optics' that would have been big pluses for the US have already been done by NK; other than actually getting a full nuke deal signed at the summit, which I very seriously doubt is going to happen, what, really could Trump accomplish of import to affect US policy or goals? Basically, the summit may just be one grand filed trip for Trump and little else; and this is not intended as a 'slam' at Trump, himself: given what NK & CN have been doing surrounding the nuke issue and the summit, any occupant of the White House of any party would be in the same situation. Maybe I'm mistaken, but it seems NK & CN are playing poker with the US and they have been reshuffling the cards during the deal...










<O>

[em2nought]

I don't really care what happens over there. I just want it to result in us leaving and never going back. Nation building is way too expensive. I'm just afraid our deep state(military industrial complex included) will come up with another nasty place we need to send those troops for another 65 years(like we'll last that much longer).

If we fought WW2 in this day and age, nobody would ever get to go home when it ended. The budget would get reduced too much, and that's the ultimate NO NO now.

[Mr Quatro]

Perhaps it is a result of having competed in debate tournaments, back in school, where we had to argue for or against a subject or idea in alternating stances, one round Pro, next round Con, next round Pro again, etc., but I have come to value seeking both sides of and argument before trying to make a decision as to my views.

Getting back to the subject matter of the thread, I am getting the impression Trump, and by extension, the US, are being seriously played by NK and China. A few days ago, I saw an article in the China Daily (the Chinese Govt.'s English language newspaper; it is a "foreign agent" under FARA) about a meeting between Kim and a very top level China official related to the denuclearization of NK and the upcoming meeting with Trump and the article made it appear China is far more involved with what is going on in NK than Western media has been covering. Within the past couple of days, the Chinese leader XI ans NK's Kim had another surprise meeting with the subject matter, again, reported as further discussions on NK's nukes. I suspect the change in posture of NK has less to do with whatever Trump has been up to and more with whatever NK & CN have been cooking up. With the sudden, if limited, participation of NK in the Olympics, the offer of a summit with Trump, the unprecedented visit and summit with SK's Moon in SK, and some other little reported activities by NK and CN, it would seem CN/NK are setting up some sort of PR effort to cast KIm as the initiator of peace in the Koreas and marginalizing Trump and the Us in the peace process. There really is not very much for Trump to do or accomplish at the upcoming summit since many of the 'optics' that would have been big pluses for the US have already been done by NK; other than actually getting a full nuke deal signed at the summit, which I very seriously doubt is going to happen, what, really could Trump accomplish of import to affect US policy or goals? Basically, the summit may just be one grand filed trip for Trump and little else; and this is not intended as a 'slam' at Trump, himself: given what NK & CN have been doing surrounding the nuke issue and the summit, any occupant of the White House of any party would be in the same situation. Maybe I'm mistaken, but it seems NK & CN are playing poker with the US and they have been reshuffling the cards during the deal...

<O>

I also took speech and was on the debate team, but I got hit in the head so many times since then that I have taken a more simple approach to thinking what is going on between China and North Korea.

This simple approach is that a war between NK and USA would hurt China greatly. Trump has provoked a meeting between China and North Korea that has never happened before. President for life in China has promised little Kim that big brother will protect little brother in order to have world peace and keep the trade lines open ... plus we owe a huge national debt to China and if we went to war with NK we would not be obliged to repay that debt if China stepped in and helped NK.

It's just that simple ... money honey plus the Oriental mind set that we (Americans) have a hard time figuring out.

Personally I think NK will make a deal for as long as it takes to get their economy going again and taking all of it's trade restrictions off and selling their long range missile technology to Iran or any other poor third world party and then seeing if they can become a threat again in five years or so.

Warning I have been wrong before (McCain vs Obama) :oops:

[vienna]

I also took speech and was on the debate team, but I got hit in the head so many times since then that I have taken a more simple approach to thinking what is going on between China and North Korea.

This simple approach is that a war between NK and USA would hurt China greatly. Trump has provoked a meeting between China and North Korea that has never happened before. President for life in China has promised little Kim that big brother will protect little brother in order to have world peace and keep the trade lines open ... plus we owe a huge national debt to China and if we went to war with NK we would not be obliged to repay that debt if China stepped in and helped NK.

It's just that simple ... money honey plus the Oriental mind set that we (Americans) have a hard time figuring out.

Personally I think NK will make a deal for as long as it takes to get their economy going again and taking all of it's trade restrictions off and selling their long range missile technology to Iran or any other poor third world party and then seeing if they can become a threat again in five years or so.

Warning I have been wrong before (McCain vs Obama) :oops:

China is going to make out very well with the way the NK situation is going now. CN now looks like a peacemaker (while the world thinks Trump is a saber-rattler) and is getting a big step up in its goal of being a respected superpower economically and politically. KIm goes to CN, meets with XI, and, in short order, participates in the Olympics, makes peace overtures to SK, crossing over and meeting cordially with SK's Moon, and tops it off with talk of unification and denuclearization (which I still don't buy); all in al, a big PR coup for CN and NK; even the prisoner release was orchestrated so as to exhibit the 'good intent' of NK without giving Trump the massive PR coup of flying home the prisoners himself on AF1. If Trump tries to militarily intimidate NK, the US will be seen internationally as an 'unreasonable aggressor' against Kim and the NK as the ones 'bending over backwards' to be accommodating and having made the first moves and effort stowrds peace. I still have the feeling CN and NK are orchestrating the playing field to their advantage and are being rather successful. Imagine what the international reaction will be if Trump gets all blustery and self-important at the summit and gives NK and CN an excuse to point a finger of blame at the US and back out of what has been accomplished so far...

But, the American people needn't worry: Trump would never do or say something irrational or rise to the bait, would he? He's just not that kind of guy... :03:









<O>

[mapuc]

Once a member wrote something about China wouldn't be interested in a war, because this would mean millions of refugees knocking on their backdoor.

New time coming...

This made me remember the end of the 80's and beginning for the 90's where thousands if not hundred thousands of people from East Germany and Russia fled into the west.

I'm pretty sure the same will happen here-If the North Korean people are free.

Millions of people from NK will be knocking on China's backdoor.

I'm therefore certain that China are interested in a status quo in NK.

Markus

[em2nought]

China adds 9,500 electric powered buses to their public transportation fleet every 5 weeks. 9,500 is the equivalent of the entire bus fleet for London. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/04/china-is-adding-a-london-sized-electric-bus-fleet-every-five-weeks/ I'm not sure how you defeat or compete against a country with a capacity that huge. Maybe best to get them to agree that certain spheres belong to us, and certain spheres belong to them. I'm pretty sure they'd be really happy if we left Korea, maybe they'd knock something off our debt in the bargaining.

[vienna]

Several Years ago, a young co-worker asked why China was considered ot be such a threat; I pointed out to her that, aside from nuclear capability, China could theoretically and technically field an army larger than the entire US population...

Regarding what I posited about NK, possibly with CN influence, trying to deliberately lessen the political impact of Trump's summit with Kim, yet another action one would have expected to be a result of such a summit has fallen:


North Korea Plans to Destroy Nuclear Test Site Ahead of Trump Summit --

https://www.wsj.com/articles/north-korea-plans-to-destroy-nuclear-test-site-ahead-of-trump-summit-1526155666


Let's see: NK has held a summit with Sk, with goodwill all around, has announced the cessation of nuke testing, and is now announcing the destruction of the test site; even the release of the Korean-American prisoners was made before Pompeo's last visit to NK, depriving the Trump administration of the optic of the release being a result of Pompeo's meeting with Kim and accompanying the prisoner's home. There doesn't seem to be much left for Donny to bring home from his meet with Kim...

I know, for a certainty, Trump will not win the Nobel Peace Prize this year...











<O>

[Jimbuna]

Is one to presume Vox is anti-trump :hmmm:

https://www.vox.com/2018/5/14/17343860/donald-trump-korea-diplomacy

[u crank]

Is one to presume Vox is anti-trump :hmmm:


I think it would be safe to say it is a left leaning news site.:03:

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/vox/

[Jimbuna]

I think it would be safe to say it is a left leaning news site.:03:

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/vox/

Ah, right and rgr that :)

[vienna]

I caught the original reporting on this news item on NHK's US news feed on PBS. The NK-CHN background processes are stepping up; an NHK News crew caught on film the arrival of an NK delegation and the extent of security and diplomatic deference indicate the delegation includes at least one very highly placed NK official:

N.Korean delegation visiting China --

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20180514_16/










<O>

[THE_MASK]

China is up to something .

[vienna]

I still think Xi is striving to make Trump's meet with Kim as much of a 'non-event' as possible, denying Trump anything of significant political value, internationally or domestically...











<O>

[Rockstar]

China is up to something .

Ya think? ;)

The greatest victory is that which requires no battle. - Sun Tzu

http://www.atimes.com/article/what-china-wants-from-north-korea/

Beijing's desire for stability has played a bigger role than recognized in Kim Jong-un's volte-face decision to negotiate his nuclear position By Bertil Lintner (http://www.atimes.com/writer/bertil-lintner/) May 7, 2018 3:17 PM (UTC+8)


... Stronger economic links between the South and North would serve China’s strategic interest of stability on the peninsula. At the same time, China wants to maintain and expand its influence over the North Korean regime, which recent events demonstrate that it still has. A détente between the North and South would also give China a chance to drive a wedge between Washington and Seoul.

South Korea has stated that it wants US troops to stay, but if there is a peace treaty there would no longer be any excuse to maintain them or the THAAD deployment to protect against North Korean missiles. Maintaining THAAD after a peace deal would give Beijing ammunition to call America’s bluff and claim that THAAD was part of an attempt to encircle China. THAAD is a contentious issue in South Korea. When Moon came to power he put the deployment of four additional THAAD launchers on hold. He moved ahead with their deployment only after North Korea’s July 2017 test launch of an intercontinental ballistic missile capable of reaching mainland America.

In the long run, the broader question of why the US would have to maintain troops in South Korea would inevitably be an issue if a peace treaty was signed between the two Koreas. And if a peace treaty is not forged, somebody — most likely the US — would be blamed for intransigence. Seen from that perspective, China and North Korea may emerge as bigger winners than the US if the upcoming talks achieve less than many now anticipate and hope.

[Reece]

China is up to something .
Definitely, and not good imo.:yep:
Great to see you are still sober!:up:

[em2nought]

Empires rise and fall :03:

https://velvetescape.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Hadrians-Wall.jpg

[Jimbuna]

Can't say I trust China any more than NK.

[Mr Quatro]

I still think Xi is striving to make Trump's meet with Kim as much of a 'non-event' as possible, denying Trump anything of significant political value, internationally or domestically...


<O>

Admit it vienna you've been wrong before :hmmm:

This peace thingy is going to happen ... Kim wants his country to enjoy prosperity and open a Mcdonald's restaurant too :D

Trump will come home a hero and win the Nobel peace prize and then get kicked out of office by Mueller's investigation team.

Warning: I also have been wrong before :o

[vienna]

"This peace thingy is going to happen"....

Well, maybe, maybe not:


North Korea threatens to cancel summit with Trump over military drills --

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/north-korea-threatens-to-cancel-summit-with-trump-over-military-drills/2018/05/15/04a15a5e-5878-11e8-8b92-45fdd7aaef3c_story.html?utm_term=.e1b8b02f5481


North Korea Postpones Talks With South, Hinting Kim-Trump Summit Is in Peril --

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/15/world/asia/north-korea-postpones-talks.html


Trump may wind up all dressed up with no place to go...

This kind of leaves the optics as Trump and the US being the cause of the possible cancellation if Trump persists in continuing with the exercises, maybe not a fair characterization, but its the one that NK & CN will push internationally. Now, let's see in Donny takes the bait...










<O>

[Jimbuna]

It sounds to me like NK want to keep those weapons it already has but may be willing to cease production of any additional weapons :hmmm:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-44134910

[Reece]

Yeh so much for Kim's denuclearization, keep the sanctions going guys!!:salute:

[vienna]

I'm still absolutely sure Trump won't get the Nobel Peace Prize this year...










<O>

[Skybird]

Diplomacy is war with other means.

[vienna]

I thought Diplomacy was the art of telling someone to go to hell in a way such as they would look forward to the trip...












<O>

[u crank]

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock.

-Will Rogers

[Reece]

I thought Diplomacy was the art of telling someone to go to hell in a way such as they would look forward to the trip...


:yep:

[STEED]

Has old fat boy Kim played Trump for a fool? :hmmm:

The truth is out there just stand by..

[Reece]

I think if they do meet they will swap ideas on how to maintain a good head of hair and the best conditioner to use.:hmmm:

[Buddahaid]

I think it will be some version of this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8qo-uiAq58

[Highbury]

I think it will be some version of this.

Or this

https://i.imgur.com/7jZ56B9.jpg

:har:

[Jimbuna]

Should be interesting to see if NK manage to get Bolton fired.

[em2nought]

Or this

https://i.imgur.com/7jZ56B9.jpg

:har:
It would not surprise me in the least to learn that Dear Leader had been offered a vast sum of money to "not play ball" with the Trumpster, and that would be treason. :timeout:

[vienna]

Treason against who?...









<O>

[Mr Quatro]

Rumor has it that Trump is offering a million dollars of McDonald's coupons to seal the deal with :yep:

http://cdn.images.dailystar.co.uk/dynamic/1/photos/928000/620x/donald-trump-north-korea-hamburgers-560802.jpg

[Jimbuna]

Wouldn't look good on Trump if fat boy beats him at political chess but who ever said Rump was a politician.

Should the above become a reality then I should imagine his advisors in the WH will be blamed but when did he ever take the advice on offer?

[Rockstar]

I think it would be a win for China and North Korea if they actually managed to back the U.S. into a peace treaty. It would most likely in the decades to come lead to South Korea and our own beans counters to question the need for U.S. forces to remain. The region would to be handed to China on a silver platter.

I'm thinking this road to peace is not a good idea for the west. We're already hearing in our media how its Fatboy that's throwing a wrench in such plans.

Because of the failed attempt and apparent impossibility of reunification it will put Moon’s South Korean Minjoo Party in a bad spot next election too.


But hey, if the social media aspect of politics is your thing then yes its all about today, Trump, Fatboy, hamburgers and haircuts.

[Aktungbby]

FUNNY HOW FATBOY'S RHETRIC HARDENED AFTER THE SECOND VISIT TO CHINA CLEARLY THE TROLL IS LISTENING TO HIS MASTER, WHO'S LONGTERM 50 YEAR EXPANSIONIST GOALS REQUIRE THE U.S. OUT OF SOUTH KOREA AND JAPAN ENTIRELY. https://static01.nyt.com/images/2018/05/09/world/09china-korea-1sub/merlin_137841510_1ffa45bf-a5b9-44b6-b02f-89239822e52e-articleLarge.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp =https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4f/Jvcnipper.png/180px-Jvcnipper.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jvcnipper.png):O:

[vienna]

Seems like Rump (really liking the accurate name, Jimbuna :haha: :up:) has had a light bulb click on, even if in Rump's case it is probably a dim bulb:


Trump Blames His ‘Friend’ Xi Jinping for North Korea’s Threat to Cancel Face-to-Face Summit --

http://www.newsweek.com/trump-blames-his-friend-xi-jinping-north-koreas-threat-cancel-face-face-summit-933616


Regarding Rump's deal-making 'prowress', here is an interesting analysis of how his deal strategies could just be his undoing in international diplomacy:


The North Korea Summit Isn't a Real-Estate Deal --

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/05/trump-negotiations-iran-north-korea/560519/









<O>

[mapuc]

Why did the meeting between Ribbentrop and Molotov come into my mind when I read about these meetings between KJU and Jinping

Markus

[em2nought]

We've been in Korea an awful long time, and the best thing we have to show for it is the Kia Soul. I wonder what the actual price tag for a Soul would be if you tacked on 65 years in the DMZ? :hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

What's inside Kim Jong-un's head?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/king_of_pyongyang

[Mr Quatro]

What's inside Kim Jong-un's head?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/king_of_pyongyang

This is a great presentation Jim ... thanks for sharing I don't usually click on links, but I did this time.

I urge you all to see the truth the BBC has presented. :yep:

[Aktungbby]

I'M INVESTING IN CHOCO PIES; IT'S THE KEY TO VICTORY! https://www.cnn.com/2014/01/27/world/asia/choco-pie-koreas/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2014/01/27/world/asia/choco-pie-koreas/index.html) Despite perceptions of North Koreans as brainwashed, insulated masses, the hunger and desire for Choco Pie shows that "complete quarantine is impossible," wrote Richard Lloyd Parry in London Review of Books (http://www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n09/richard-lloydparry/advantage-pyongyang). Lloyd wrote that it "reveals a susceptibility to outside influence in a society commonly regarded as impenetrable." The crumbly mass of chocolate and marshmallow had taken on a subversive aspect. Indeed, Chae, the artist behind the exhibit, says, the Choco Pie "has a power in how it works as a mind changing tool between South and North. perhaps the Choco Pie is a reminder of an aspect missing in the narratives about the country, said Noerper: "We lose sight of the fact there's a common human experience. We need to realize North Koreans are regular human beings -- that 99% of North Koreans just desire a better life."
"They want a Choco Pie at the end of the day."

[Jimbuna]

This is a great presentation Jim ... thanks for sharing I don't usually click on links, but I did this time.

I urge you all to see the truth the BBC has presented. :yep:

Cheers matey :salute:

[Mr Quatro]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5767219/Trump-CANCELS-summit-Kim-North-Korea-insults-Mike-Pence.html

Trump CANCELS his summit with Kim


North Korea insults Mike Pence

North Korea 's vice foreign minister Choe Son Hui slammed Pence in remarks on Wednesday, calling him a 'political dummy' and 'ignorant and stupid'
Pence told Fox News on Monday that North Korea could end up like Libya if it doesn't make a deal with Trump, leading to the outrage
Trump said it would be 'inappropriate' to hold talks at this time after Choe's rant
'You talk about your nuclear capabilities, but ours are so massive and powerful that I pray to God they will never be used,' he said in a letter to Kim

If the peace treaty is to be held it will be in the good will of Lord not the vanity of man's mind.

[STEED]

The War of words is back on. :ping:

[Aktungbby]

'You talk about your nuclear capabilities, but ours are so massive and powerful that I pray to God they will never be used,' he said in a letter to Kim THE GODLESS INVOKING GOD??!! WE'RE IN FOR 'STORMY' WEATHER!:k_confused: AS FOR WHETHER THERE WAS EVER GOING TO BE A SUMMIT, I HAVE MY DOUBTS : DESTROYING AN ALREADY UNUSEABLE MISSILE TEST SITE TO DEMONSTRATE 'GOODWILL' AND HOLDING A MEETING IN SINGAPORE WHERE HE SHOULD BE ARRESTED FOR THE MURDER OF HIS HALF BROTHER SORT RAISE MY PERSISTENT SUSPICIONS. North Korea, the world’s nuclear-armed auto dealership from hell, is turning up the high-pressure sales tactics. After months of charm that had secured Kim Jong Un a summit with President Trump in Singapore next month, Mr. Kim has now pivoted without warning. (OBEYING HIS CHINESE MASTER'S WISHES) Pyongyang canceled meetings with South Korea, complaining of military exercises with the U.S., which Washington promptly called off at Seoul’s request. North Korea is also threatening to scrap the Singapore parley unless denuclearization is taken off the agenda.
There’s no need for Kremlinology here. These are standard North Korean shakedown techniques, honed to perfection by three generations of regime negotiators. Mr. Kim is probing for pre-emptive concessions before his big get-together with Mr. Trump. Such techniques have proved successful in the past, which is why today North Korea is for all intents and purposes a nuclear state. If the U.S. wants a different outcome this time, it is going to have to adopt a radically different approach.
The most important thing for American negotiators to understand is that North Korea is a “revisionist state”—one that is deeply aggrieved by, and fundamentally opposed to, the current configuration of the international chessboard. It regards South Korea as an illegitimate monstrosity that must be wiped off the map so the Kim family can gather the whole Korean race (the “minjok”) under the peninsula’s true “independent socialist” government.
Given that worldview, North Korea regards the U.S. as the villain whose security architecture has permitted the vile “South Korean puppets” to survive. Thus the imperative for Mr. Kim to amass an arsenal of nukes and long-range missiles. The eventual goal is a showdown in which Pyongyang would make Uncle Sam blink and abandon Korea.

None of the ordinary rules of diplomacy apply with North Korea. For a revisionist state, negotiations constitute war by other means. That means there is no “win-win,” no “getting to yes.” This is not like entering into a trade deal with Belgium. North Korean officialdom believes only in “win-lose” outcomes: To leave anything on the table for the other side is positively unpatriotic if it is at all possible to do otherwise, because the “other side” is the enemy.
Further, North Korea does not recognize the legitimacy of the outside world’s laws. It sees contracts, treaties and understandings with other governments as entirely contingent, depending on whether they serve Pyongyang’s purposes at the moment. As long as a deal is deemed beneficial, North Korea will adhere. The instant it is deemed disadvantageous, North Korea will not hesitate to violate it, renounce it, or simply walk away.
If American diplomats insist on treating North Korea more or less like any other state, the coming negotiations will bring hapless results no different from those of the past, even as the peril for the U.S. and its allies grows ever greater. Instead the Trump administration should consider a totally new approach. A few suggestions:
• No more front-loaded benefits for Pyongyang. North Korea always takes the money and runs. Any incentives the White House dangles must be withheld until the end of the process, after Mr. Kim proves satisfactory compliance with the deal, as determined by the U.S. alone. To approach negotiations otherwise is to invite Mr. Kim’s back-room tactics.
• Demand small, concrete signs of good faith upfront. This would help the U.S. determine whether Mr. Kim has any intention of honoring his promises. If not, it would be better to know sooner rather than later. The “ask” need not relate to denuclearization, and it should be something Pyongyang could deliver almost immediately.
One idea is for the U.S. to propose that North Korea make good on its Western debts. In the 1970s, Pyongyang borrowed hundreds of millions of dollars from Australian, French, Japanese and other Western lenders, debts now long in default. Mr. Kim’s Bureau 39, the unit that manages the regime’s overseas slush fund, surely has the cash to right this wrong. If the regime cannot honor even commercial contracts, how can it be trusted on a nuclear deal?
By the same token, the U.S. could ask Mr. Kim to disband the Anti-Imperialist National Democratic Front. This is a Pyongyang-based group of purported South Korean dissidents who relentlessly endorse the Kim family regime and broadcast calls for Seoul’s overthrow. If Mr. Kim cannot at least implicitly signal South Korea’s right to exist, how can he be trusted on denuclearization?
• Insist that North Korean state media publish Mr. Kim’s promises. The usual diplomatic parchment won’t cut it. Instead the U.S. should demand that the terms of any deal be printed in Korean on the front page of the Rodong Sinmun, the official party newspaper, as well as broadcast on regime-controlled radio and television. The North Korean elite and the Kim family’s subjects must see what Pyongyang has committed to with Washington. It is entirely possible that Mr. Kim would not dare reveal to his people what he has promised, for fear of domestic ramifications. But if so, he never intended to keep his pledges.
• Be unflinchingly prepared for diplomatic failure. Unfortunately, that is the most likely outcome for any negotiators with North Korea who resolutely intend to promote American interests. Mr. Trump must be ready to walk away, as Ronald Reagan did at Reykjavik, Iceland, in 1986.
In this case the U.S. must be prepared to redouble its efforts at “threat reduction.” To its credit, the Trump administration has already increased the international economic pressure on Pyongyang and worked to keep American allies united. The White House must be ready to continue in this direction. If negotiations fail, the U.S. and its allies must move swiftly be to minimize the North Korean menace without Mr. Kim’s assent.
Mr. Eberstadt is a political economist at the American Enterprise Institute and a founding director of the Committee for Human Rights in North Korea.

[mapuc]

A question or more a thought

Let's assume a war breaks out between USA and NK, lets assume NK makes the first strike and they use their Nukes....Lets assume once again that USA does the same, use Nukes in their retaliation.

Now would China as NK's big brother just sit there and do nothing

I remember what China have said-If NK starts the war, we will not act, if USA start the war we will help NK.

Markus

[STEED]

Trump made the mistake to treat it as a quick business deal. Lets hope more careful preparation is made and not rushed resulting in a meeting.

[Skybird]

A question or more a thought

Let's assume a war breaks out between USA and NK, lets assume NK makes the first strike and they use their Nukes....Lets assume once again that USA does the same, use Nukes in their retaliation.

Now would China as NK's big brother just sit there and do nothing

I remember what China have said-If NK starts the war, we will not act, if USA start the war we will help NK.

Markus
See it form this perspective. Compare what the US has to lose if its five biggest cities and industrial hotspots get nuked, and what the loss would be if the biggest five cities and industrial centres of North Korea would get nuked. And then ask yourself this question: who has more at risk, who is more vulnerable to suffer immense losses in lives, housing, economic power - the US, or Korea?


It sounds paradox, but the US is in the weaker position here. In case of a nuclear exchange between the US and North Korea with ICBMs, the US has far more to lose, and is more vulnerable.

And there are other forms of delivering a nuclear detonator than an ICBM, too. Personally, the proverbial dirty suitcase bomb used by terrorists are what worries me at least as much as ICBMs.

----

I never believed in that meeting taking place, did not believe it for one second.

[Rockstar]

Yes the JPOCA prohibits Iranian R&D of nuclear weapons. What it doesn't prohibit is the current sharing of nuclear technology between North Korea and Iran. Since "Iran Deal" lifted sanctions Iran not only has been expanding operations in the middleeast they probably have some cash laying around to pay for the Nork technology. Nice of North Korea to do the work and share with their now rich neighbors.


I'd wager a small amount the day is coming soon when a non-state actor is going to get their hands on more than just a dirty bomb. :hmmm:

[em2nought]

See it form this perspective. Compare what the US has to lose if its five biggest cities and industrial hotspots get nuked, and what the loss would be if the biggest five cities and industrial centres of North Korea would get nuked. And then ask yourself this question: who has more at risk, who is more vulnerable to suffer immense losses in lives, housing, economic power - the US, or Korea?


Heaven forbid that five sanctuary cities get taken out. :03:


Oh, and I smell John Bolton. I think he's actually a democrat plant.

[Delgard]

The "business deal" is a matter of profit and loss seen from a values perspective.

The profit could have been high, but NK opened their mouth while in a long-term weaker position.

After Trump canceled, NK adjusted quickly.

China has influence, but neither wants NK to economicallly....die, but nor do the want a greater western presence on the peninsula.

The negotiations are really with China.

Trump did right. A point for USA.

[Buddahaid]

Heaven forbid that five sanctuary cities get taken out. :03:

Seriously? Thanks a lot then and may you reap the same reward.:03:

[em2nought]

Seriously?
No, not seriously. thus the "wink" emoji

[Buddahaid]

Sarcasm is not always easy to read. :03:

[Jimbuna]

So the 'event' becomes a 'non event' hardly surprising when both parties in reality are far far apart in what they're after.

I certainly believe the only solution will come after talks at the highest level with China.

[Jimbuna]

North Korea has said it is still willing to talk "at any time in any form" after US President Donald Trump abruptly cancelled his meeting with Kim Jong-un.

Vice-foreign minister Kim Kye-gwan said Mr Trump's decision was "extremely regrettable".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-44248256

Just came across this and the conciliatory tone would have me believe China is working behind the scenes.

[Mr Quatro]

Oh, and I smell John Bolton. I think he's actually a democrat plant.

That's funny :yep::haha::up:

[Aktungbby]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-44248256

Just came across this and the conciliatory tone would have me believe China is working behind the scenes.PRECISELY... https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4f/Jvcnipper.png/180px-Jvcnipper.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jvcnipper.png)

[Skybird]

So the 'event' becomes a 'non event' hardly surprising when both parties in reality are far far apart in what they're after.

Not so quick with the young horses - the Donald indicated today that because everybody plays games, it may turn out to be a fake non event. The problem are the events that are indeed events but afterwords turn out to be a fake, with the non event just indicating in modern language that something may happen, or not - but that with highest probability.

A lecture on probability clouds in quantum physics may help to understand it better. Or Heisenberg: usually, you cannot measure exact vector/momentum and exact position of particles simultaneously, as long as you have no Donald. With a Donald at hand, you can do it, however. Just not really - you see?

Maybe the fourfold Buddhist negation should be renamed into the fourfold Donaldinarian negation. Absolutely possible - levitating high enough above reality he certainly does.


I read that he may work on building up his daughter to become the first female POTUS. Reading that was more scary than learning that Sigourney Weaver shoots another Alien movie.

[Jimbuna]

Its on, its off, its on, its off :doh:

[Catfish]

Shhhh Trump has a secret plan to disconcert the rest of the world including the US, not only with his North Korea politics.. and up to now it works perfectly :D

[Jimbuna]

Well, it looks like NK are becoming increasingly eager for the event to go ahead.

Korean leaders meet in surprise summit

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-44265287

[Platapus]

Might be best if the two of them work things out between themselves without any interference from the US.

[em2nought]

Might be best if the two of them work things out between themselves without any interference from the US.


Wouldn't it be great if we could "finally" learn to stay out of other peoples business. :03:

[Catfish]

Wouldn't it be great if we could "finally" learn to stay out of other peoples business. :03:

You mean, out of Vietnam/Laos, Afghanistan, Syriah, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Nicaragua, Grenada.. and so on.

But what about saving the world, and oil, and other 'interests'?
Give up your 'peaceful hegemony'? :D

[vienna]

But there has to be a summit: Trump has already minted commemorative coins to celebrate his grand coup:




https://media.boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/TrumpKimCoin.png


Right now, it seems the coin is going at a discount price:


Commemorative North Korea Summit Coin Now Selling at a Discount --

https://www.thedailybeast.com/commemorative-north-korea-summit-coin-now-selling-at-a-discount



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wx_UwEtPegs


Trump is still being played and he is playing into CHN/NK's hands; if Trump had been smart (excuse me while I laugh at the Trump=smart oxymoron... or just Trump=moron), he wouldn't have cancelled the summit; it is fairly obvious NK isn't really keen on holding the summit and is just teasing Trump along; if Trump not cancelled and had just let the deadline get down to the end, Kim would have been the one to cancel and the US would not seem like the spoilers internationally. Just another bonehead move from the Bonehead-In-Chief...
















<O>

[Rockstar]

How many remember hearing about this a few weeks ago?

In any deal with North Korea, Trump said, Kim would “be in his country; he’d be running his country.”


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/world/wp/2018/05/16/whats-this-libya-model-north-korea-is-so-angry-about/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.fb7cbab0324b

I wonder if Fatboy is having trouble at home? Wonder if by saying this Trump revealed how shakey Fatboy's hold on power might be? Fatboy has been thrust on the world stage of politics. Kowtowing to China and bending on agreements by the U.S. only makes him look weak to hardliners at home. He needed too reject the summit and talk with Moon and Moon alone. Moon who is probably all too eager for his own political gain happy to agree to reunification even if that means the North keeping its nukes.

[vienna]

More likely, Kim and Xi have been 'colluding' on a strategy seeking the maximum amount of humiliation for the US and, with the able complicity of Trump because, you know, he's Trump, they are accomplishing their goal; while Trump cancels and waffles on the summit and he has his minions like Bolton stirring up the pot, Kim is 'going the extra steps' and doing things like meeting with Moon, blowing up his nuke test site, etc., and. even though its all smoke and mirrors, to the rest of the world, Kim is coming across as the "reasonable" leader (then again, how hard is it to appear reasonable when being compared to Trump). It all optics. Kim is playing the game and, with the assistance of Xi, playing it pretty well. I don't think Kim is really worried: he gets to make Trump dance, keep his power, keep his nukes, and gives up, really, nothing...


















<O>

[Rockstar]

I don't think for a moment anyone in this world (except maybe Moon) thinks Un is a reasonable person. He doesn't stay in power by being reasonable he stays in power by deceit, killing his own family and the opposition and starving his own citizens. Again its just a w.a.g. but he was thrust onto the world stage which puts the spot light on him, it means he will have to negotiate and bend to others will, which could be seen as a sign of weakness to the internal hardliner opposition. I think Fatboy might be in survival mode and best course of action for him at the moment is to sitcan the summit and attempt negotiations directly with Moon who probably gets all teary eyed at the prospect of reunification and getting re-elected.

Also China and North Korea aren't exactly bosom buddies either, it wouldn't be the first time North Korean actions embarrassed China.

[Sailor Steve]

Fatboy...Fatboy's...Fatboy...
Please to not call Glorious Leader "Fatboy". Glorious leader is working so hard on his image. Women love him. Men envy him. To use such language is to be rude, insulting and potentially racists.

Remember, Slim Kim is Best Kim.









Sorry, couldn't resist. :O:

[HerrRitter]

From the subsim frontpage:
http://www.businessinsider.com/us-navy-seals-f-35s-decapitation-strike-north-korea-2017-3



My initial reaction is that of course we should have plans in place for most foreseeable scenarios. This one is looking more and more relevant as time passes.

But then the f-35's got me. I was under the impression these were not in active service yet, but perhaps I'm wrong. I can see a few being used in a training exercise, but not on actual missions yet. Seems more of an F-22 thing anyways. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


The F-35 is, indeed, in service. The problem that I have with this fighter is that they tried to create an aircraft that does everything. But according to an F-35 pilot that I talked to, it does, indeed, do everything, but does nothing really well.


A ... ahem ... former President decided that the United States did not need an Air Superiority fighter, and so he cancelled the F-22. Those that were already built are still in service, but there aren't enough of them. My opinion is that they should start up the F-22 program, again, and keep the Aardvarks flying for ground support (the plane is the most survivable aircraft in our inventory).

[em2nought]

My opinion is that they should start up the F-22 program, again, and keep the Aardvarks flying for ground support (the plane is the most survivable aircraft in our inventory).


They should probably reverse engineer A-10s, S-3s, and F-14s and start production on those again also. :salute:

[Reece]

Remember, Slim Kim is Best Kim.

Is that even possible!!:hmmm:

[Mr Quatro]

Please to not call Glorious Leader "Fatboy". Glorious leader is working so hard on his image. Women love him. Men envy him. To use such language is to be rude, insulting and potentially racists.

Remember, Slim Kim is Best Kim.

Sorry, couldn't resist. :O:

I didn't know Kim Jung-uh (3rd Supreme Leader of North Korea) was a member:o

What user name does fat boy use anyway? :D

[Aktungbby]

I think Fatboy might be in survival mode and best course of action for him at the moment is to sitcan the summit and attempt negotiations directly with Moon who probably gets all teary eyed at the prospect of reunification and getting re-elected. Also China and North Korea aren't exactly bosom buddies either, it wouldn't be the first time North Korean actions embarrassed China.
Tobacco smoking (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_smoking) is popular and, at least for men, culturally acceptable in North Korea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea). As of 2014, some 45% of men are reported to smoke daily; Smoking is a leading cause of death in North Korea, and as of 2010 mortality figures: some 34.3% of men and 22.3% of women are reported to die as a result of smoking, the highest smoking mortality figures in the world, and in total tobacco-caused illness kills 55,600 North Koreans annually. The current leader Kim Jong-un is often seen smoking in public, including in university classrooms, subway cars, and in the presence of his wife Ri Sol-ju (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ri_Sol-ju), facts that "might make the life of the North Korean health educators more complicated.":oops: WERE I THE PRESIDENT, I WOULD GUARATEE UNLIMITED CAMEL NO FILTERS AND ALL THE CHOCO PIES FATBOY CAN MUNCH AND HOPE 'FOR THE BEST' :O: https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5ae7ce4f19ee86a30d8b468a-750-375.jpg
North Korean leader Kim Jong Un received intense scrutiny during his appearance at the historic inter-Korean summit last week, and his actions during the event reveal that he was keenly aware that the world was watching. Case in point: Kim, who is known to be a chain smoker, was seen having only one smoke break during the hourslong summit. All three leaders of North Korea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leader_of_North_Korea)—Kim Il-sung (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Il-sung), https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f7/North_Korea_%285015253795%29.jpg/780px-North_Korea_%285015253795%29.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:North_Korea_(5015253795).jpg) Kim Jong-il (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-il), and Kim Jong-un (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-un)—have been smokers and the country has struggled to balance their public image with its anti-smoking efforts. In general, North Koreans tend to prefer strong tobacco and different classes of quality range from homegrown to sought-after foreign brands that are considered status symbols (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_symbol)[https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/16A0B/production/_100938629_0001.jpg

[Mr Quatro]

Tobacco smoking (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_smoking) is popular and, at least for men, culturally acceptable in North Korea. As of 2014, some 45% of men are reported to smoke daily; Smoking is a leading cause of death in North Korea, and as of 2010 mortality figures: some 34.3% of men and 22.3% of women are reported to die as a result of smoking, the highest smoking mortality figures in the world, and in total tobacco-caused illness kills 55,600 North Koreans annually. The current leader Kim Jong-un is often seen smoking in public, including in university classrooms, subway cars, and in the presence of his wife [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ri_Sol-ju"]Ri Sol-ju (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea), facts that "might make the life of the North Korean health educators more complicated.":oops:

North Korean's are so poor that most cigarette smokers roll their own, but it is against the law to use newspapers due to most newspapers have an image of Kim Jung-un in them and they are not permitted to dishonor his image

[Rockstar]

North Korean's are so poor that most cigarette smokers roll their own, but it is against the law to use newspapers due to most newspapers have an image of Kim Jung-un in them and they are not permitted to dishonor his image

Oh yes, that sounds very reasonable.

[mapuc]

More likely, Kim and Xi have been 'colluding' on a strategy seeking the maximum amount of humiliation for the US and, with the able complicity of Trump because, you know, he's Trump, they are accomplishing their goal; while Trump cancels and waffles on the summit and he has his minions like Bolton stirring up the pot, Kim is 'going the extra steps' and doing things like meeting with Moon, blowing up his nuke test site, etc., and. even though its all smoke and mirrors, to the rest of the world, Kim is coming across as the "reasonable" leader (then again, how hard is it to appear reasonable when being compared to Trump). It all optics. Kim is playing the game and, with the assistance of Xi, playing it pretty well. I don't think Kim is really worried: he gets to make Trump dance, keep his power, keep his nukes, and gives up, really, nothing...
















<O>


Reading your comment, made me remember this thread we use to discuss in

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=214616

Could it be that China and/or North Korea are trying to erase USA from the South Chinese sea equation ?

Markus

[Jimbuna]

North Korean's are so poor that most cigarette smokers roll their own, but it is against the law to use newspapers due to most newspapers have an image of Kim Jung-un in them and they are not permitted to dishonor his image

What about toilet paper? :haha:

[Rockstar]

Reading your comment, made me remember this thread we use to discuss in

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=214616

Could it be that China and/or North Korea are trying to erase USA from the South Chinese sea equation ?

Markus

Not so sure anymore whats happening with North Korea has much to do with whats happening in the South China Sea. I believe freedom of navigation exercises are essential to prevent excessive claims. But the U.S. did suspend those exercises once with the hope China would place more pressure on North Korea to stop its nuclear weapons program.

Though I'm sure China would love for the the U.S. Navy to stay out of its backyard. I think the main concern for us is really North Korea. Its the only state to formally withdraw from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. Its scary to think Slim Kim has developed and is sharing it's nuclear technology with other rogue states. Freedom Of Navigation be damned, the day is fast approaching when a non-state player will get their hands on a nuke weapon. When they do Europe and the U.S. are screwed and depending upon our reaction the rest of the world might be too.

[Aktungbby]

What about toilet paper? :haha: At Kaesong, the South Korean factory owners eventually switched from Choco Pies to cup noodles -- "in order to provide a more substantial snack," the former factory owner told CNN. The change, he said, was well-received.
One of the most surprising things he remembered from his years at the factory was how North Korean workers were mystified by everyday items. The workers had no idea how to use a Western-style toilet, and had never seen toilet paper before, he said. TOILET PAPER IS A NON-ISSUE: LITERALLY AND FIGURATIVELY... :shucks: SODASPEKE:O:

[Mr Quatro]

What about toilet paper? :haha:

North Korean workers were mystified by everyday items. The workers had no idea how to use a Western-style toilet, and had never seen toilet paper before, he said.

TOILET PAPER IS A NON-ISSUE: LITERALLY AND FIGURATIVELY... :shucks: SODASPEKE:O:


Answers that question, uh?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/north-korea-nuclear-test-site-mantapsan-mountain-collapse-unusable-kim-jong-un/ (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/north-korea-nuclear-test-site-mantapsan-mountain-collapse-unusable-kim-jong-un/) THE REAL REASON KIM APPEARS SO REASONABLE ....FOR THE MOMENT....:oops:

I've been thinking (like that biker guy in the Beach Blanket movies)

What if Aktungbby is on to something here and the whole peace talk thing, at least with South Korea, is centered around the fact that NK has gone to far in their testing of nuclear weapons with the test site being destroyed and unable to verify that it was a test gone bad. They sure destroyed it fast and it looked like on the news that it was just some old wooden buildings.

What is Kim up to ... dare we question his motives ... He wants South Korea to be his friends and remove the threat of war with USA so they can prosper again. I heard that the whole country will go broke by October if they don't make a deal.

What would it take to hide say (10 nuclear warheads and of course those mobile missile launchers in a country that is suspicious of everything they do?

I'm sure we won't give in with Trump saying we won't be suckers this time, but the oriental mind is too shifty for me to at least think they are up to no good. :yep:

[Aktungbby]

I've been thinking (like that biker guy in the Beach Blanket movies)

What if Aktungbby is on to something here and the whole peace talk thing, at least with South Korea, is centered around the fact that NK has gone to far in their testing of nuclear weapons with the test site being destroyed and unable to verify that it was a test gone bad. What would it take to hide say (10 nuclear warheads and of course those mobile missile launchers in a country that is suspicious of everything they do?
I'm sure we won't give in with Trump saying we won't be suckers this time, but the oriental mind is too shifty for me to at least think they are up to no good. :yep: reread post# 1176's WSJ quote: These are standard North Korean shakedown techniques, honed to perfection by three generations of regime negotiators. Mr. Kim is probing for pre-emptive concessions before his big get-together with Mr. Trump. Such techniques have proved successful in the past, which is why today North Korea is for all intents and purposes a nuclear state. If the U.S. wants a different outcome this time, it is going to have to adopt a radically different approach.
The most important thing for American negotiators to understand is that North Korea is a “revisionist state”—one that is deeply aggrieved by, and fundamentally opposed to, the current configuration of the international chessboard. It regards South Korea as an illegitimate monstrosity that must be wiped off the map so the Kim family can gather the whole Korean race (the “minjok”) under the peninsula’s true “independent socialist” government.
Given that worldview, North Korea regards the U.S. as the villain whose security architecture has permitted the vile “South Korean puppets” to survive. Thus the imperative for Mr. Kim to amass an arsenal of nukes and long-range missiles. The eventual goal is a showdown in which Pyongyang would make Uncle Sam blink and abandon Korea.
THE MEETING IN SINGAPORE IS JUST SO MUCH 'JAW-JAW' ON BEHALF OF LONG-RANGE CHINESE EXPANSIONIST POLICIES. THE KIM-KIM MOON-MOON HUG-HUG http://www.eaglenews.ph/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/000_14D643.jpg POSES NO ILLUSIONS FOR MR MOON WHO KNOWS PERFECTLY WELL HE WILL END UP ALONGSIDE FATBOY'S UNCLE AND HALF BROTHER AS AN EXPENDIBLE ENTITY TO THE 'MINJOK' INTENTIONS OF 'DEAR LEADER'....:oops: :/\\chop :dead: https://media2.giphy.com/media/4ad1pNew77arxH7jtt/200w.gif
THIS HAS ALL THE EARMARKS OF THE HILTLER-STALIN PACT PRIOR TO OPERATION BARBAROSSA....

[THE_MASK]

What about a free trade agreement with the USA in exchange for unfetted UN inspectors for disarmament of nukes .

[Aktungbby]

^ HOW ABOUT: A COMPLETE FORMAL PEACE TREATY ENDING THE KOREAN CONFLICT; MR KIM RETIRES FROM POLITICS TO LIVE ON HIS ILL GOTTEN GAINS-TEACHING POLITICAL SCIENCE AT HIS SWISS ALMA MATER; AND THE NORTH AND SOUTH ARE REUNIFIED WITH HELP FROM THE GERMANS WHO HAVE PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE IN THIS SORT OF THING: WHEN 'THE WALLS COME A-TUMBLIN' DOWN' AND WE LET THE KOREANS KEEP THOSE WONDERFUL MISSILES FOR USE AGAINST THE SPRATLEY ISLAND FORTRESSES NOW ADORNING THE SOUTH CHINA SEA. THAT WILL ALLEVIATE OUR HAVING TO ARM FORMOSA AND REEEEEALLY PISS OFF OUR BELLIGERENT SINO-RIMPAC BUDDIES AND KIM WILL BE WELL THOUGHT OF FOR HAVING DEVELOPED THE NUKES.....:O: https://timesofsandiego.com/military/2018/05/23/china-disinvited-from-navys-giant-multinational-rimpac-exercise/ (https://timesofsandiego.com/military/2018/05/23/china-disinvited-from-navys-giant-multinational-rimpac-exercise/) ...TALK 'BOUT OUTTRIGHT IDENTIFYING THE ENEMY HERE :/\\!!:(:shifty:
The United States has rescinded an invitation to China to participate in the upcoming Rim of the Pacific (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_RIMPAC) exercise off Hawaii, a Defense Department spokesman announced Wednesday.
Marine Lt. Col. Christopher Logan said the People’s Liberation Army Navy (https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/navy.htm) would not be participating in the exercise, despite its involvement in 2014 and 2016. He said the decision was made because of increasing militarization of disputed islands in the South China Sea.
“As an initial response to China’s continued militarization of the South China Sea we have disinvited the PLA Navy from the 2018 Rim of the Pacific Exercise,” Logan said. “China’s behavior is inconsistent with the principles and purposes of the RIMPAC exercise.”

[Jimbuna]

Now Russia decides to get involved...

Russia's foreign minister is to visit North Korea to hold talks with his counterpart about the situation on the Korean peninsula, the Kremlin says.

Sergei Lavrov's visit on Thursday comes ahead of a planned summit between Donald Trump and Kim Jong-un on North Korean denuclearisation next month.

The foreign ministry said in a statement Wednesday that Mr Lavrov would hold talks with North Korea's foreign policy chief to discuss bilateral issues as well as the overall issues surrounding the Korean Peninsula

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/russia-north-korea-sergei-lavrov-visit-us-trump-singapore-kim-jong-un-a8375171.html

[Catfish]

It seems Mr. Trump's delay tactics just backfired.

[Jimbuna]

I'm wondering if joint support from China and Russian will simply embolden Kim :hmmm:

[Mr Quatro]

Now Russia decides to get involved...



https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/russia-north-korea-sergei-lavrov-visit-us-trump-singapore-kim-jong-un-a8375171.html

Russia is a neighbor (I wonder if that nuclear test site has spilled over to the Russians yet) so it does seem reasonable that they want to make sure getting rid of the USA is a priority and with that in mind what a crazy circus this has become.

Right up Trumps alley ... :yep:

https://www.newsday.com/news/nation/trump-korea-summit-1.18840234

North Korea is believed to have several dozen nuclear weapons, so handing over a few — spectacular as that would be — wouldn't really solve anything unless a further agreement was made regarding what to do with the rest. At the same time, for the North, it would be a huge and painful concession.

[Rockstar]

It seems Mr. Trump's delay tactics just backfired.


IMO diplomacy failed long before President number 45 took office. While others talked peace in our time, North Korea over many years has been accumulating a small arsenal of nuclear weapons AND ballistic missile technology and pointed them at us. On top of that they thumbed their nose at us as they withdrew from the non-proliferation treaty and are probably selling to Iran nuclear weapons technology. That's the backfire.

And how does Iran have the money to buy all that technology? Why the EU of course whose interest in the maintaining the JPOCA doesn't have a damn thing to do with Iranian nuclear non proliferation. Rather it has everything to do with their own self-interests of obtaining wealth by trade with Iran. Unless that changes I'd bet on it being soon to be backfire number two.

[mapuc]

Maybe one day in the future our history books will tell us, what was said or done

Markus

[Aktungbby]

^AT THE RATE WE'RE GOIN', THERE WILL B NO 'FUTURE HISTORY BOOKS':O: https://media0.giphy.com/media/l3vR1tookIhM8nZJu/200w.gif

[Buddahaid]

Oooh, a Heinlein reference.

[Aktungbby]

^ YUP; SOMETIMES YA GOTTA 'PAY IT FORWARD' BBY!:damn:

[vienna]

IMO diplomacy failed long before President number 45 took office. While others talked peace in our time, North Korea over many years has been accumulating a small arsenal of nuclear weapons AND ballistic missile technology and pointed them at us. On top of that they thumbed their nose at us as they withdrew from the non-proliferation treaty and are probably selling to Iran nuclear weapons technology. That's the backfire.

And how does Iran have the money to buy all that technology? Why the EU of course whose interest in the maintaining the JPOCA doesn't have a damn thing to do with Iranian nuclear non proliferation. Rather it has everything to do with their own self-interests of obtaining wealth by trade with Iran. Unless that changes I'd bet on it being soon to be backfire number two.




Some of the damage may have been done before #45 dropped in, but the real point is Rump isn't doing anything to improve the situation; what is need is a directed, cohesive strategy, not this sort of 'winging it', 'throw something at the wall and see if anything sticks' approach Rump is so fond of, where he can duck responsibility if he fails, but takes full over-credit if he inadvertently stumbles on a gain or, sometimes, claiming some one else's gain a s his own. If you think about it, a meeting between Kim and Rump leaves Rump with very little to look forward to as an 'achievement'; open a dialog between SK an NK?... Already done by Moon and Kim; destroy a nuclear test site?... Already done. Rump isn't going to get a reunification in the first meeting, so that's out and he won't get a peace treaty since he can't make one unilaterally without the other Korean War allies, so zilch there. Basically, all Rump will most likely get is a trip to Singapore and a non-event he will surely over-exaggerate and over-embellish, and, amybe, a brief distraction from the scandals and flailngs of his administrations. Truly meaningful summits are preceded by extensive groundwork and a set agenda of potential accomplishments, not the 'will-he-won't he', reality-show trappings that are so Rump. It is about time he really, really let the experienced hands take the wheel...
















<O>

[Rockstar]

According to you 'some' prior to Trump 'may' have allowed North Korea to develop unabated nuclear weapons and delivery systems which are now pointed at the United States and South Korea. Now its known Nork regime propaganda has began emphasizing “final victory” over the United States and Republic of Korea in 2017, suggesting Slim Kim has bigger ideas, including the use of his nuclear weapons to deter any interference if it attempts to reunify the Korean Peninsula.

Now that they have nuclear weapons. What exactly is this "directed and cohesive strategy" you and Schiff suggest we implement to fix this? What is the evidence you have which explains what happened to the last test facility? What leads you to believe they don't have others or are not at this moment digging another?

[vienna]

According to you everyone prior to Trump as you say 'may' have allowed North Korea to develop unabated nuclear weapons and delivery systems which are now pointed at the United States and South Korea.

Its known Nork regime propaganda has began emphasizing “final victory” over the United States and Republic of Korea in 2017, suggesting Slim Kim has bigger ideas, including the use of his nuclear weapons to deter interference if it attempts to reunify the Korean Peninsula.

What exactly is this "directed and cohesive strategy" you and Schiff suggest we implement to fix this?


Don't know about Schiff, why don't you ask him; I still haven't decide if I'm gonna vote for him this time around; still looking up who's running. This time around he's running against another DEM who's site is very slim; the GOP candidate seems to be parroting Rump, but his site does include recipes (no, really). Neither of Schiff's opponents has any TV exposure and I haven't seen anything in the mail. Unless either the other DEM or the GOP candidate comes up with some solid arguments and not platitudes, Schiff will win by, pretty much default...


So, that's what we in the CA 28th District have to work with...




By the way, here is an interesting recent press release from Schiff:


House Passes Schiff Amendment to Add Names of 74 Sailors to Vietnam Veterans Memorial --


https://schiff.house.gov/news/press-releases/house-passes-schiff-amendment-to-add-names-of-74-sailors-to-vietnam-veterans-memorial




I don't know: do you think that's any better than a guy with 'bone spurs' who starts a veteran's charity, collects all the money, and, instead of disbursing the funds as intended by the donors, sits on the cash while using the charity as a piggy bank, and then, only disburses the funds when the press finds out about the hoarded funds and embarrasses him into doing what an hinest person would have done in the first place?...


So, no decision yet, but, who knows, the GOP candidate may come across with a killer clam chowder recipe..





As far as strategy is concerned:





Its known Nork regime propaganda has began emphasizing “final victory” over the United States and Republic of Korea in 2017, suggesting Slim Kim has bigger ideas, including the use of his nuclear weapons to deter interference if it attempts to reunify the Korean Peninsula.





So, according to you, the fit hit the shan in 2017, when Rump took control, or what passes for control under his mismanagement; basically, you're saying the real problems sarted on his watch...


Now we have something to agree on: its Rump's mess... :haha:


As far as "directed and cohesive strategy", I don't know all the specifics of the entire situation so I'm waiting to see what is revealed in the near future; its something you and Rump may not have heard of: its called "reasoned judgement". I know that interferes with the platitudes and sloganeering and the bloviating and the bluster, but grown-ups are known to use it with better than average results. Whatever a "directed and cohesive strategy" is, it isn't what you and Rump & Co. are exhibiting thus far...


...and Rump is being seriously, seriously played by CHN and NK; now, with RUS in the mix, the real playtime begins...

















<O>

[Rockstar]

Don't know about Schiff, why don't you ask him; I still haven't decide if I'm gonna vote for him this time around; still looking up who's running. This time around he's running against another DEM who's site is very slim; the GOP candidate seems to be parroting Rump, but his site does include recipes (no, really). Neither of Schiff's opponents has any TV exposure and I haven't seen anything in the mail. Unless either the other DEM or the GOP candidate comes up with some solid arguments and not platitudes, Schiff will win by, pretty much default...


So, that's what we in the CA 28th District have to work with...




By the way, here is an interesting recent press release from Schiff:


House Passes Schiff Amendment to Add Names of 74 Sailors to Vietnam Veterans Memorial --


https://schiff.house.gov/news/press-releases/house-passes-schiff-amendment-to-add-names-of-74-sailors-to-vietnam-veterans-memorial




I don't know: do you think that's any better than a guy with 'bone spurs' who starts a veteran's charity, collects all the money, and, instead of disbursing the funds as intended by the donors, sits on the cash while using the charity as a piggy bank, and then, only disburses the funds when the press finds out about the hoarded funds and embarrasses him into doing what an hinest person would have done in the first place?...


So, no decision yet, but, who knows, the GOP candidate may come across with a killer clam chowder recipe..





As far as strategy is concerned:





So, according to you, the fit hit the shan in 2017, when Rump took control, or what passes for control under his mismanagement; basically, you're saying the real problems sarted on his watch...


Now we have something to agree on: its Rump's mess... :haha:


As far as "directed and cohesive strategy", I don't know all the specifics of the entire situation so I'm waiting to see what is revealed in the near future; its something you and Rump may not have heard of: its called "reasoned judgement". I know that interferes with the platitudes and sloganeering and the bloviating and the bluster, but grown-ups are known to use it with better than average results. Whatever a "directed and cohesive strategy" is, it isn't what you and Rump & Co. are exhibiting thus far...


...and Rump is being seriously, seriously played by CHN and NK; now, with RUS in the mix, the real playtime begins...

















<O>



Let me get this straight after translating all of that text above. I've come to the conclusion you don't have a clue what a "directed and cohesive strategy" means? Or solid evidence the Norks don't have a another test facilty. OK, fair enough because I don't either.

[vienna]

https://media.giphy.com/media/l0IypeKl9NJhPFMrK/giphy.gif




Hmm...


A pic of you realizing your Pampers are in a twist?...




What? No real rebuttal or defense? What a 'snowflake'... :har:


















<O>

[Rockstar]

https://media.giphy.com/media/EsmlrgWNx5v0Y/giphy.gif

[Aktungbby]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2554999&postcount=1216 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2554999&postcount=1216) SOMEONE(Claudia Rosett )AGREES WITH ME!!:k_confused: https://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/B3-AP109_ROSETT_P_20180529104407.jpgIN TOTAL FOR :subsim: W/O WSJ ACCESS:
The summit between President Trump and Kim Jong Un seems to be on again, with a flurry of preparatory meetings. Mr. Trump tweeted Sunday: “I truly believe North Korea has brilliant potential and will be a great economic and financial Nation one day. Kim Jong Un agrees with me on this.” But even to have any chance of defanging the North Korean nuclear menace, there’s one huge concession Mr. Trump must demand from the regime: that Mr. Kim abandon his totalitarian control over North Korea.
This totalitarianism isn’t solely a problem for human rights. North Korea is both the world’s most repressive tyranny and the only country known to have illicitly tested nuclear weapons in this millennium. These dual distinctions are no coincidence: The regime’s extreme control and strict secrecy enable both. There are no checks on Pyongyang’s official lies. Dissent is simply snuffed out.
The remedy should begin with Mr. Kim releasing the inmates from his political prison camps, in order to shut down the gulag forever. A good place to start would be the hellhole known as Camp 16, with an estimated 20,000 inmates. The camp sits less than 2 miles from the Punggye-ri underground nuclear test site, where, according to reports cited by the State Department, prisoners may have been forced to work as construction crews.

North Korea hosted a select group of foreign reporters last Thursday to witness the demolition of access tunnels at that test site. But the event was a Potemkin show: After a half-dozen nuclear explosions from 2006-17, the site was quite likely well past its functional life-span. :doh: If Mr. Kim frees the inmates from prisons like Camp 16, they could tell the world what they know about how North Korea’s nuclear sites operate.
In place of real news, Mr. Kim’s regime “guides” the North Korean people through state propaganda organs, reinforced by surveillance units. State media wield a monopoly over public discourse, and describe the regime in such terms as “a flower garden for the people full of respect and love.” Political repression is enforced by a massive security apparatus, with layers of surveillance that pervade every level of society—from the military to schools, farms, factories and families.
This repression of political discourse shapes North Korea’s approach to nuclear negotiations. When American leaders strike an agreement, they submit themselves to huge domestic pressures to justify and honor their words. Pyongyang faces no such constraint. Operating in secret and free from public pressure, Mr. Kim can promise what he likes, renege whenever he wants, renegotiate terms after the fact, and obliterate any North Koreans who dare to disagree. This is why every previous agreement has failed, including nuclear deals in 1992, 1994, 2005 and 2007, and a missile deal in 2012.
Because the regime serves only its own interests rather than those of the public, the U.S. gains no leverage by promising to improve North Koreans’ lives. Meanwhile, retaining nuclear weapons allows Mr. Kim outsize importance and leverage in world affairs. As long as Mr. Kim faces no domestic pressure to exchange nuclear weapons for permanent concessions, his incentive will be to milk, manage and cheat the negotiation process rather than strike any genuine long-term deal.
North Korea’s longtime nuclear envoy, Kim Kye Gwan, is a veteran deceiver of U.S. diplomats. He responded to President Trump’s scrapping of the June 12 summit with the statement that North Korea is still willing to “sit down face-to-face with the U.S. and resolve issues anytime and in any format.”
If the summit goes on, Mr. Trump should open the negotiation with the demand that Mr. Kim renounce his totalitarian advantage. The regime must be compelled to open up the country by dismantling the internal surveillance apparatus verifiably and irreversibly, as well as by normalizing travel. Without those steps, no denuclearization offer Mr. Kim might bring to the bargaining table could be credible.
Granting these freedoms to North Koreans would likely lead to Mr. Kim’s eventual downfall. Ending the system of surveillance would effectively amount to regime change, which tyrants tend not to survive. But if Mr. Kim won’t take that risk, it would be folly to gamble with North Korea on another nuclear deal. The only real solution to North Korea’s nuclear threat is an end to Pyongyang’s totalitarian system, which must be the bottom-line mission for the U.S. The only choice worth offering Mr. Kim is whether he will end it himself, or wait for U.S. forces to find a way to do it for him.
Ms. Rosett is a foreign policy fellow at the Independent Women’s Forum.
Appeared in the June 1, 2018, print edition ANY DISCUSSION 'TWIXT TRUMP AND KIM-MEGLOMANIACS BOTH-https://media3.giphy.com/media/4EFCiNHXhtYUfTghBu/200w.gif SERVES ONLY FATBOY'S CHINA-DIRECTED SPEARTIP AGENDA; NOT THE WEST'S....:ping: BEST TO KEEP OUR FINGER ON THE NUKE BUTTON AND TIGHTEN THE SANCTIONS! https://media3.giphy.com/media/3ohjUXd0kN7M5LExEY/200w.gif:yeah:

[Mr Quatro]

Rockstar and vinnea

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/09/23/13/2CAB658A00000578-0-image-m-76_1443010235140.jpg

[mapuc]

In an article in a Swedish Online news paper(aftonbladet.se) some days ago

It was said that both Trump and KJU was afraid to lose face in this upcoming meeting.

Markus

[Gerald]

Of course, there is a lot of prestige in this.

[mapuc]

Of course, there is a lot of prestige in this.

No doubt.

The question would then be

Who will lose most if this happens is it:

Trump ?
Or
KJU ?

I could with the little knowledge I have say

Trump is the one who would lose most if he lose face in this meeting.

Markus

[Mr Quatro]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person_of_the_Year

Person of the Year or Man of the Year is an award given to an individual by any type of organization. Most often, it is given by a newspaper or other news outlet to annually recognize a public person.

The award can be facetious or serious. The chosen person is usually someone who has been notably influential or prominent during the year and could also be a hero or villain.

Both President Trump and Kim Joug-un could win the person of the year award ... :yep:

The Nobel peace prize could be awarded to Kim Jung-uh and give him a reason to keep the peace too ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Peace_Prize

As of 2013, the prize was worth 10 million SEK (about US$1.5 million).

Fat boy Kim could sure use that, uh?

[vienna]

Rockstar and vinnea

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/09/23/13/2CAB658A00000578-0-image-m-76_1443010235140.jpg


...I'm the good-looking one on the right... :D










<O>

[vienna]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person_of_the_Year


Both President Trump and Kim Joug-un could win the person of the year award ... :yep:

The Nobel peace prize could be awarded to Kim Jung-uh and give him a reason to keep the peace too ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Peace_Prize



Fat boy Kim could sure use that, uh?



Neither one will win the prize in this year; they'll have to wait until next year, at the earliest...

...So. Burger-Butt Trump is SOL this year...









<O>

[Rockstar]

...I'm the good-looking one on the right... :D










<O>


Thats the female.


The masculine looking fellow on the left is me. :O::03:

[Reece]

They both have antlers therefore males, now you have me worried!!:hmmm:

[vienna]

They both have antlers therefore males, now you have me worried!!:hmmm:


Well, he's just having problems with sexual identity...you know...he's kinda confused and still searching... :D

...and I hear tell, around the watering hole, there's a rumour going around the hinds he's got "small hooves"... :haha:







<O>

[Jimbuna]

Trump receives his big letter.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-44339864/us-north-korea-trump-gets-a-strangely-large-letter

[Skybird]

Trump is as much meeting Kim to talk about denuclearization as Nixon went to China to tell them they have to give up nukes. Nixon went to China to recongise China as a nculear power, normalising relations that way, and Trump will do the same with NKorea, dressing it in different words only. Kim will NEVER give up his nukes, they are his trump card. A line that already was decided on by his grandfather, and which he continues': to build the military AND the economy. Kim sees NK on same ey elevel with the US, and wants to normalise relations in the shadow of his hukes in order to grow his economy.

https://translate.google.de/translate?hl=de?sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A//www.welt.de/debatte/kommentare/article176904539/Nordkorea-Gipfel-Denuklearisierung-Kim-wird-nicht-von-der-Byungjin-Linie-abweichen.html


Denuclearization? A new case of epidemic outbreak of chamberlainitis major in Asia?

[Jimbuna]

^ Agreed :yep:

[em2nought]

If someone were to nuke just one large American city I believe that would eliminate the popular vote advantage that reckless immigration policy, and a school system full of socialist faculty has created. :hmmm: Of course all those dead folks will still vote democrat so maybe not. lol

[Rockstar]

They both have antlers therefore males, now you have me worried!!:hmmm:




ummm male and female reindeer have antlers. truth be told males shed theirs in winter. females normally do in summer. which, when ya think about it makes Santas reindeer an all female sleigh team.


we now return you too your regular scheduled program.

[Rockstar]

Though this article is almost a year old it is I think still a decent relevant opinion.
(https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/07/opinions/china-north-korea-opinion-lind/index.html)
https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/07/opinions/china-north-korea-opinion-lind/index.html


also:


The China–North Korea Relationship

Chinese certainly would prefer that North Korea not have nuclear weapons, their greatest fear is regime collapse," writes Jennifer Lind, a professor at Dartmouth University. The specter of hundreds of thousands of North Korean refugees flooding into China has been a worry for Beijing.https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/china-north-korea-relationship

[mapuc]

Speculating in what they may say or not say before they meet, is not something I'm going to burn my brain cell with.

I'm more interested in what the outcome of the meeting will be.

Markus

[Aktungbby]

trump card. (NICE PLAY ON WORDS!) A line that already was decided on by his grandfather, and which he continues': to build the military AND the economy. Kim sees NK on same ey elevel with the US, and wants to normalise relations in the shadow of his hukes in order to grow his economy. Denuclearization? A new case of epidemic outbreak of chamberlainitis major in Asia?https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/MunichAgreement.jpg/330px-MunichAgreement.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MunichAgreement.jpg)< I WAS THINKING OF TRUMP UTTERING 'PEACE IN OUR TIME' MYSELF This is why every previous agreement has failed, including nuclear deals in 1992, 1994, 2005 and 2007, and a missile deal in 2012.
I CANNOT BELIVE FAT BOY WILL NOT BE ARRESTED AS SOON AS HE TOUCHES DOWN IN SINGAPORE, TECHNICALLY A CITY STATE- FOR THE MURDER OF HIS HALF-BROTHER IN NEIGHBORING MALAYSIA...IT'S SIMPLER TO CONVICT TWO FEMALE 'DUPES' FOR THE CRIME?? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Kim_Jong-nam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Kim_Jong-nam)