Realism- and gameplay-related hardcode fixes for SH3.EXE

[makman94]

wonderfull work you are doing here H.Sie ! :up:

are you going to post sometime the parts that need to tweak in order to adjust WO output ranges to individual tastes ?

thank you :up:

[h.sie]

hi makman, thanks again.
yes. after releasing V15C I'll publish the addresses of the factors and switches for tweaking. Just be patient a little bit.


Currently adjusting the maximum diving times according to historical data.

Type II: No information. So I let it untouched. But diving time doubled with Silent Running.

Type VII and IX: With Silent Running, now the historical diving times (about 72 hours) can be reached.

Type XXI:
Squaresteelbar found 400h max. diving time.
LGN1 found 150h, which is not exactly the same.

SSB: Wikipedia.
@LGN1: Where did you get your information from?

h.sie

[SquareSteelBar]

I think 400 hours is a theoretic value related to oxygene reserves.

Max. diving time mainly depends on the capacity and loading state of the batteries...

[h.sie]

V15C is available.

New in this version:

1) CO2 production of the crew (and thus the maximum diving time) of Uboats now are strongly affected by Silent-Running status.
While in Silent Running, the crew produces only 50% of the CO2 compared to standard situation, so that diving times are doubled.

2) Enlarged maximum diving time for Type XXI from 46 hours to 75 hours.

3) All previous and following fixes (repair times, range estimations) are now switchable ON/OFF by changing a single Byte. Description will follow.

In V15C, the diving times are as follows:

Type II: 30h - unchanged.
Type VII: 36h - unchanged.
Type IX: 40h - unchanged.
Type XXI: raised from 46h to 75h.

When in Silent-Running all the time, the following maximum diving times are possible (Factor 2):

Type II: 60h
Type VII: 72h
Type IX: 80h
Type XXI: 150h.

which more or less conforms to historical data. Thanks, LGN1, for research.

Note: I decided not to take the number of crew members into consideration when calculating CO2 production and diving times, because it is not totally clear if Uboats had additional Oxygen supply for additional crew or not. Also I have historical data (regarding diving-time and number of crew) only for 3 Uboat types, but there are 8 different types in SH3.

h.sie

[Volk2]

Thanks for another essential step to improving the game!

[h.sie]

You're welcome. Why did you change your nickname?

Currently looking into the compressed air issue mentioned by Rubini, but after reading this post

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=163651

I must admit that I'm a little bit confused. It will take some time simply to understand what exactly the problem is....

[Hitman]

Currently looking into the compressed air issue mentioned by Rubini, but after reading this post

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=163651

I must admit that I'm a little bit confused. It will take some time simply to understand what exactly the problem is....

In a nutshell, the main problem is that compressed air does not get used (And exhausted) unless you blow ballast. Changing depths with little speed (At higher speeds the dive planes do the job) would need use of compressed air, but in Sh3 is almost unnoticeable. Also, even if you changed depth upwards with the dive planes, a bit of compressed air should be used, as you would need to empty the ballast tanks a bit to remain buoyant at the new chosen depth. Otherwise you would be too heavy and sink again if you slow down.

1) CO2 production of the crew (and thus the maximum diving time) of Uboats now are strongly affected by Silent-Running status.
While in Silent Running, the crew produces only 50% of the CO2 compared to standard situation, so that diving times are doubled.

While I have absolutely no historical data to back my opinion, I think that the difference might be too excessive. Silent running as proposed by you sends crewmen who were unnecessary for operating the sub to their bunks with the Dräger device (Which is historically correct in some situations). But if they were not necessary, then they were not doing any physical tasks (The ones where more oxygen is consumed) and it is safe to asume that the difference in oxygen consumption will not be that much.

For example, if we take 100% oxygen consumption as base case for a normal situation, and asuming that a man in physical tasks consumes twice as much as resting, and 4x than when sleeping, it would look like this:

-50% Watch crew on tasks: 75% oxygen consumption
-50% Watch-off crew resting or sleeping: 25% oxygen consumption

Total = 100%

Now, on silent running situation you are reducing by half only the consumption of the off-watch crew, and hence:

-50% of crew active on physical duties: 75% oxygen consumption
-50% of crew resting with Drägers: 12,5%

Total = 87,5%

In a more radical situation, where only a barebones crew is active during silent running, it would look like this:

-25% of crew active on physical duties: 37,5%
-75% of crew resting with Drägers: 18,75%

Total = 56,25 %

Well, those are quick numbers, but you get the idea :hmmm:

[Volk2]

You're welcome. Why did you change you nickname?


http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//showpost.php?p=1506527&postcount=8

If someone with legal starforce sh3 will be searching for appropriate sh3.exe, please direct him to me.

[h.sie]

Hi Hitman,

thank you for the input. The factor of 2,0 regarding CO2 & diving time was only my assumption some days ago, also without deep historical background. Since there was no protest from the people here, I used that factor for the fix, but all factors I used, can easily be changed in the next version V15D and after some deeper research for that topic. I am just a programmer with very limited historical background, and I would be thankful if someone could do some investigation regarding this topic.

Unfortunately, without SDK, I have to restrict on easy-to-fix-solutions. I cannot find out for every crew member if he is currently working or not. So my only chance is to analyse the Silent-Running Status bit, which has only 2 states: Silent-Running ON or OFF. Maybe it's a good idea to assume that the ON state lies between the second and the third (radical) of the three cases you described, which results in an average value of (87% + 56%)/2 = 72%, so that we get a new factor of 1/0,72 = 1,4 instead of 2,0.

One thought (which cannot be assigned 100% to the topic above): In my opinion, it sometimes makes sense to have gameplay-balance in focus instead of pure historical data. As an example, let's say, according to badly implemented physics, the destroyers accelererate too fast. In this case it would not be a good idea to make the Uboats accelerate slowly according to historical values. For good gameplay-balance, they also have to accelerate too fast, so that they get no disadvantage. We should keep this in mind when we are discussing about realism/historical data and so on.

Have a good night.
h.sie

[Hitman]

So my only chance is to analyse the Silent-Running Status bit, which has only 2 states: Silent-Running ON or OFF. Maybe it's a good idea to assume that the ON state lies between the second and the third (radical) of the three cases you described, which results in an average value of (87% + 56%)/2 = 72%, so that we get a factor of 1/0,72 = 1,4 instead of 2,0.

yes that was the idea :up: I know you can only set two states alternatively, I just wanted to point out that in the current choice we have, probably 70% or so would be better.

[h.sie]

Okay. But with a factor of 1,4......1,5 we don't achieve the historical maximum diving times, except I raise/extend their default values by a certain correction factor (what I already did for the XXI).

By the way: It would be easy for me to take the crew number into consideration when calculating CO2 cumulation/diving times. But:

1) I have only incomplete historical data regarding standard crew numbers and diving times.

2) Since the sh3.exe differentiates only between 4 main types (II, VII, IX, XXI) we would have to use average values regarding standard_crew_number and max_diving_time_with_standard_crew_number, e.g. for IXB, IXC, IXD2.

3) We must be sure that no additional oxygen supply is loaded for additional crew, because in this case diving times would not depend on crew number.

What we have: Technical requirements for:
-IIA/D: ?? hours with ?? men
-VIIC: 72 hours with 37 men
-IXC: 72 hours with 44 men
-XXI: 150 hours with 50 men

So has anyone information for the Type II??
h.sie

[divingbluefrog]

In a nutshell, the main problem is that compressed air does not get used (And exhausted) unless you blow ballast.

Well, regarding my own experience with stock 1.4, it's not exactly true.
For a very long time of play, I haven't notice anything about compressed air. But a few months ago, I modified some tactics when ordered to patrol along England shore early war.
I travelled underwater very slowly, less than 3 knots, and surfaced every 6 hours, but stayed on surface only the time to get fresh air, only a few minutes, then I looped the cycle.
After some time I noticed that my compressed air slowly decreased. So surfacing, even with some speed, consumes air. But so few that you need a great number of cycles without "resupplying" to notice.

[h.sie]

I also discovered that some compressed air is used when hitting "S" in order to surface.

[slipper]

Hi all,

Not sure if its any help to you for your calculations, but i use breathing apparatus at work which hold 1800 litre compressed air cylinders.

Now air consumption is based on 40 liters per min for an average person doing a steady rate of work, which gives 45 mins duration. However when doing hard physical labour i have known this to drop to about 15 -20 mins, with 30 - 35 a more realistic max time.

If resting though 45 - 60 minutes are achievable.

Only problem i have no idea how much air a VIIC would hold :)

but hope this can be of some help.

Out of interest i found this (not mine) similar to what i use

http://www.firetactics.com/scba-uk.pdf


regards

slipper

[h.sie]

Thank you, slipper.

This gives us an idea about the difference in oxygen consumption and CO2 production between rest and hard work.

Resting: avg. 52min
Normal work: 45min
Hard work: avg. 32min.

So the factor calculated between resting and hard work is 52/32 = 1,6 which differs only a little bit from the value 1,4 which I calculated from Hitmans information.

So in the next version I'll use a factor of about 1.5 instead of 2.0, that means while in Silent-Running, the CO2 production is about 1.5x lower than in standard situation and diving time is accordingly longer.

h.sie

[LGN1]

Hi all,

the data for the XXI I posted is from here:

http://www.uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeXXI-S38.htm

It's a US design study from 1946. Look at the first paragraph on page 3. I guess this is the most accurate information we have at the moment.

The factor between CO2 accumulation with and without silent running is, IMHO, not so crucial (it will always be a quite crude modeling in-game because you don't have higher breathing rates because of fear,...). What is much more important is that an accurate submerged endurance is achieved. What I like about the higher factor is that the player has a larger benefit from using silent running. At the moment there is practically no advantage from switching silent running on.

Concerning the compressed air, I have no idea what to do. At the moment it seems pretty useless (is there anyone who was ever influenced by it in-game?). But how to make it useful or influencing your decisions in a somehow realistic way, I have no idea :06:

Cheers, LGN1

[h.sie]

Just found out that it will be very easy to enhance my CO2_and_diving_time_fix by also taking the crew number into consideration.

Example Type VII: Historical Data:
Max. Diving time = 72h (with 37 men on board).

Now lets assume there are 42 men on board.
And let's also assume there is no additional oxygene supply for these 5 men (is this second assumption correct???).
Then 42 men will produce 14% more CO2 than 37 men, so that max. diving time will be reduced about 14%:

72h * (1-0,14) = 62h.

What do you think about that?

Every answer is welcome, but expert/'veteran' answers are very welcome.

Thank you.
h.sie

[LGN1]

Hi h.sie,

I like it! I don't know for sure whether the oxygen supply was fixed, but I find it hard to believe that they installed additional supplies according to the crew number. I think that if you have space to install additional supplies when the crew is larger, you also have space to do it when there are less crew members (you have even more space for it). So, why don't install them also for smaller crews? It shouldn't hurt :06:

So, if it's easy I would implement your proposed solution. It sounds reasonable.

Cheers, LGN1

[h.sie]

Dett hepp ick me dacht

[raymond6751]

Hi Hitman,

Unfortunately, without SDK, I have to restrict on easy-to-fix-solutions. I cannot find out for every crew member if he is currently working or not. So my only chance is to analyse the Silent-Running Status bit, which has only 2 states: Silent-Running ON or OFF. Maybe it's a good idea to assume that the ON state lies between the second and the third (radical) of the three cases you described, which results in an average value of (87% + 56%)/2 = 72%, so that we get a new factor of 1/0,72 = 1,4 instead of 2,0.

h.sie

I believe I read somewhere that the game can alter the game speed while hunting or being hunted. I suggest that such times of high stress might be a time of more use of breathable air. So then you would have four states, perhaps five if damaged.
normal, silent-running, hunting (in contact), being hunted (under attack), and damaged with DC crew working. These are suggested signals that you can get from the game, perhaps. Just a suggestion.

[h.sie]

Hi raymond,

funny, just in the last minute I tried to find a flag or similar that shows if the repair team is working or not, in order to enlarge CO2 production accordingly.

Good idea to analyse the 4 or 5 states. Let's hope I find a way to do that.

h.sie


Note: Considering crew number for CO2 production already works. But it can be switched OFF easily for those who don't like it.

[Delareon]

i know its not 100% on topic but if i need to have the starforce free version of the game to use this mod i think i can ask in here ;)
How did i find the starforce free version?
I searched a while on amazon but i cant find any information if the versions they provide are with or without Starforce.
Well i dont mind to spend a few bucks on SHIII to buy it a second time but i will mind if i buy it again with starforce **** ;)

[SquareSteelBar]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1490506&postcount=59

click the posted links...

Go to your next pc market or supermarket and look for the 'Green Pepper' edition or 'Purple Hills' edition. They're StarForce free and already patched to v1.4b...

[reaper7]

Is link down :06: http://www.mediafire.com/hsie

Any chance of a upload to other provider :D.


EDIT: Ignore working now

[LGN1]

I believe I read somewhere that the game can alter the game speed while hunting or being hunted. I suggest that such times of high stress might be a time of more use of breathable air. So then you would have four states, perhaps five if damaged.
normal, silent-running, hunting (in contact), being hunted (under attack), and damaged with DC crew working. These are suggested signals that you can get from the game, perhaps. Just a suggestion.

That's true. The max. time compression possible depends on your 'state':

[TIME COMPRESSION]
TimeStop=0
RealTime=1
LandProximity=256
CriticalDamage=1
CrewEfficiency=1
AirEnemyDetected=1
SoundEffects=2
CharacterAnim=4
EnemyDetected=1
RadioReport=8
Particles=8
PrayState=8 <--- when the enemy has detected you
HunterState=32 <--- if you have contact
3DRender=32
Maximum=1024

It's an easy way to cheat and find out whether the enemy has detected you (you can avoid it by setting it equal to HunterState).


Since you are so successful, h.sie, some more ideas for bugfixes:D

- Detection probability is influenced by repairs, not only rpm and torpedo reload. At the moment repairs do not increase the chance for being detected.

- Depth charge explosions influencing the sensors (I guess that's a difficult task with possibly far-reaching consequences for game play).

Cheers, LGN1

[h.sie]

Hi LGN1,

nice new ideas, I put them on the todo-ist. unfortunately my progress is very slow. still working on the CO2. it's hard for me to find out where the states (hunting, being hunted, praying, normal) are stored and how they are coded.

but: I found a very elegant, accurate and easy way to calculate the amount of repair- and flooding-recovery-work that is done per time-period. this can be used to calculate CO2 production. In my opinion the repair-work is more important for CO2 production than the above-mentioned states.

but maybe I can locate the states in the next days?

h.sie

[h.sie]

Currently I found out that the routine which calculates CO2 production is executed only every 10 minutes, e.g. at 12:00, 12:10, 12:20 and so on!! You can see this at high Time Compression when you look at the CO2 gauge. It moves step-wise every 10 minutes. This means, the current method of CO2 calculation (in V15C) is inaccurate because the state of the Silent-Running flag is also evaluated only every 10 minutes. The whole timespan inbetween these points of time does not influence CO2 production. So the CO2 calculation could be cheated easily by setting Silent-Running = ON only at 12:00, 12:10, 12:20 for some seconds and OFF for all the other time.

For a more accurate CO2 calculation, one needs to consider the whole time span inbetween these 10 minutes points. This is equal to averaging over the time. This can easily be done by tweaking the routines which are responsible for repairs and flooding-recovery, because these are executed every second. The more repairs are done - the more guys are working, the more a certain special variable is accumulated. Easy to program. This variable can then be evaluated (and resetted) every 10 minutes by the CO2 routine so that you have an accurate measurement of the work that has been done in the last 10 minutes.

So many ideas arise, but trying to keep things easy and manageable, I ask myself if it makes sense to additionally consider things like Torpedo reloading work, psychological stress when hunting or being hunted and so on, since these things are (halfway) correlated to repairs. When crew does repairs, there is/was of course psychological stress, and the UBoat was of course hunted and surely Torpedoes have been reloaded, too. This assumption is not always true, but accurate enough in my opinion.

But if I don't consider these other effects (directly), I think it's a good idea to consider them indirectly by giving for repairs a bigger CO2 penalty than only a factor of 1.5.

Phew,
h.sie

[LGN1]

Hi h.sie,

I would not spend too much time on the CO2 stuff. IMHO, it's fine if there are only two states: work (whatever it is) and rest (triggered by silent running). Usually, you will not use silent running if there is no threat. In this case there is also no need to stay submerged for ages. So, it's more or less only important if there is a threat and then work is the main difference.

I also don't think that the 10 min. update interval is a problem (btw, it's the same with fatigue. Every 10 min. the fatigue is decreased). If someone wants to use it to cheat then let him cheat.

Concerning the two points I mentioned earlier: I think there must be a variable that contains the probability for being spotted. I guess the stealth meter shows its value. Would be great to identify this variable because it would allow to easily modify many aspects (thermal layers depending on depth value :hmmm:, repair noise,...). In combination with a variable that would somehow indicate exploding depthcharges, deaf sensors should be easy to achieve :hmmm:

Anyway, thanks a lot for your continuous work! You are starting to become a legend :rotfl2:

Cheers, LGN1

[h.sie]

My new routine to calculate CO2-production is nearly finished. While doing some tests and enhancements, I would like to describe how it works. The intention behind this is to get some feedback in order to fine-adjust some relevant parameters.

1) Crew size now proportionally affects CO2-production and thus max. diving time: 10% more crew members -> 10% higher CO2-production -> 10% shorter diving time.

2) Repairs now affect CO2-production, depending on the amount of repairs that is currently done. For extreme damage and most of the crew doing repairs, the current CO2-production rate is multiplied with a factor of 2,0. (This appears to be a little bit high, but with this I try to compensate, that things like Torpedo reloading work, psychlogical stress when being hunted, chlorid gas caused by damaged batteries and so on, are not considered directly for CO2).

3) In Silent running, your crew stops its normal work, only the minimal necessary work is done, so that the current CO2- production is reduced by a factor of 1,5. This was already modeled in Patch V15C, but now the calculation is much more accurate.

I will also rise the max. diving time of the UBoats.

Example: Type VII.
Diving Time in stock SH3 game: 36h.
Historical data (for 37 crew members): 72h.

So in V15D you'll get a diving time somewhere between the 36h and the 72h, depending on 1) actual crew size, 2) amount of repairs, 3) Silent-Running.

This current CO2-modelling is still far away from being realistic, but much better than the stock SH3 behaviour, in which CO2-production is always constant.

h.sie

[ryanwigginton]

Great work! :up:

Just when I thought I'd played this game to death, your important revisions come along.

[Magic1111]

So in V15D

h.sie

Hi h.sie !

That sounds all good !!! :up:

When you're planning to upload the V15D?

Best regards,
Magic:salute:

[h.sie]

Hi h.sie !
When you're planning to upload the V15D?


I think during the next few days. Some long-time stability tests and it's done. Unfortunately my assembler routines for exact measurement of repair-work grew and grew and I feared to lose overview. So I had to make the calculation more simple as follows:

Crew number is still considered for CO2-production and diving-time.

There are now 3 states of the UBoat/Crew which influence CO2 production by a certain factor:

1) Silent Running / Crew rests: Factor 0,7
2) Normal work: Factor 1,0 (default state)
3) Repairs (and indirectly "being hunted", which is correlated with repairs): Factor: 1,5

Different from V15C, it is no more possible to cheat the CO2-calculation.

Until now I was not able to find out how the in-game states (Hunting, being hunted and so on) are coded and stored, so we have to be content with the current model described above.

Maybe in the future I could also consider these in-game states, provided I find them???

And maybe I'll add a random-generated very high CO2-production factor (when batteries damaged heavily and compartment flooded) in order to model battery damage / chloride???

But now I am tired of CO2!!!
h.sie

[SquareSteelBar]

...But now I am tired of CO2!!!...That's very dangerous...you've to be more careful !!!

[h.sie]

@SSB: :DL

Regarding compressed air: compressed air is stored in-game as a floating-point value between 205 (full) and 0 (empty). After a first glimpse at the algorithm that is responsible for discharging the compressed air, I think the devs wanted to model an discharge rate proportional to the pressure. high pressure - high discharge rate. low pressure - low rate. unfortunately, at low pressures the discharge rate converges to zero, so that the compressed air never gets completely empty. it does not go lower than a value of 10. but anyhow, you can still blow ballast in these situations, but without sinking pressure. that is a bug.

since changing the discharge algorithm isn't trivial, I first tried an easy fix. I simply disabled the blow-ballast button when a pressure value of 10 is reached. Works fine. now you can get out of compressed air, that means, you can blow ballast about 5 or 6 times, but then the button is disabled. unfortunately, the "E" key still works - it is not logically coupled to the blow ballast button. another bug.

[makman94]

H.Sie....you are reminding me a whisky....it says....''KEEP WALKING'' !!

Seriously, the most awesome and interesting thread of the last months (say year or it is too much ? :DL)

this modding is just at the start....but i am sure that amazing things will come out...really amazing :up:

[h.sie]

H.Sie....you are reminding me a whisky....it says....''KEEP WALKING'' !!

Seriously, the most awesome and interesting thread of the last months (say year or it is too much ? :DL)

this modding is just at the start....but i am sure that amazing things will come out...really amazing :up:

Hi makman,

thank you for your words. for you and a few other people (me included) this might be true, but looking on the download counters for V15C (20 downloads) we are a minority. but I don't care about that. the intention of my work is not downloads or tribute (I am too old for that kind of intention), it's only to have a good game. and I would even continue if there were 1 download (initiated by myself).

By the way: I promised you a DIY for tweaking WP/WO range estimation.
I didn't forget that. Until the DIY is ready, contact me via PM regarding that.

:DL

h.sie

[Magic1111]

Hi makman,

thank you for your words. for you and a few other people (me included) this might be true, but looking on the download counters for V15C (20 downloads) we are a minority. but I don't care about that. the intention of my work is not downloads or tribute (I am too old for that kind of intention), it's only to have a good game. and I would even continue if there were 1 download (initiated by myself).

By the way: I promised you a DIY for tweaking WP/WO range estimation.
I didn't forget that. Until the DIY is ready, contact me via PM regarding that.

:DL

h.sie

Hi h.sie!

I agree totally with makman´s words, you´re doing a wonderful job and I like your MODs very much !!!!!! :yeah::ping::yeah:

Best regards,
Magic:salute:

[Volk2]

Seriously, the most awesome and interesting thread of the last months (say year or it is too much ? :DL)

No, it isn't too much. H.sie work here is groundbreaking for realism enthusiasts. Certainly not one person was dreaming about disassemling the game to make it better (but you must be an Einstein or H.sie to know how to use assembler).

Because of H.sie and Hans mods, yesterday I've ordered a second-hand motherboard and processor (Athlon 64 3600), to have a better sh3 experience :yeah: (well, there is a probability that it will not work, but I can always hope that it will, hehe)

[h.sie]

fishing for compliments was not my intention. sorry for misunderstanding.

[Volk2]

fishing for compliments was not my intention. sorry for misunderstanding.

Hehe, you don't need to fish for them, really :DL

[Magic1111]

fishing for compliments was not my intention. sorry for misunderstanding.

...nevertheless, the compliments must to be said...;)

[h.sie]

Yesterday I made some tests in order to become familiar with compressed air (CA) and related problems and bugs. Somewhere I read that you cannot run out of CA, which in fact would be a big bug.

So I stopped the boat at 150m depth (with 0 knots) and ordered "blow ballast". I heared the according blowing sound and the boat began to move up. it needed about 320 seconds to surface.

Then I completely emptied the CA and stopped the boat again at the same depth with 0 knots and ordered again "blow ballast". I again heard the sound and now the boat needed 4 times longer to surface. at the first moment I thought this was a bug, because I expected: no CA - no moving up.

but then I remembered the little positive buoyancy the GWX-team gave the U-boats by setting mass a little bit lower than displacement. so I installed the Anti-hummingbird mod for GWX which I found somewhere, and which gives uboats a little negative buoyancy instead.

I ordered again "blow ballast" at the same situation with no CA available. I again heard the sound, but......the boat did not move up. It slowly sank instead. So you in fact CAN get out of compressed air!!!

People using the Anti-hummingbird mod can diretly see that. People using the GWX positive buoyancy will surely see that, too, if a compartment is floodded a little bit because of a leakage.

the only "bug" is, that you still hear the blowing sound. this sound in conjunction with the positive buoyancy gives the impression that blowing ballast still works a little bit even without any compressed air.

to be honest, I don't know what to fix.

Hitman stated that CA is not used when changing depth. but when you press "S" to surface, a little amount of CA is used short before surfacing.

the remaining question is: is it gameplay relevant and worth the effort to make a fix that makes the Uboat consume some CA everytime you change depth? I never read about a situation where they ran out of CA and thus couldn't change depth. if the answer is YES: I need to know, how much CA is consumed per depth-change operation? is it only consumed for lowering depth or for rising depth, too?

Maybe I could make a fix that mutes the sound when no CA is available or I could disable the blow-ballast button and "E" key. but I think there are more important things to fix.

?????

[SquareSteelBar]

...Maybe I could make a fix that mutes the sound when no CA is available or I could disable the blow-ballast button...IMHO that could be the best solution... :yep:

[Hitman]

Hitman stated that CA is not used when changing depth. but when you press "S" to surface, a little amount of CA is used short before surfacing.

It seems weird that when you click on the depth gauge you are taken to that depth without any use of compressed air (as far as I can tell) but when you use the S key it does!

There is a reasoning behind that, though: To change depth you use the diving planes, so you can theoretically do it without using compressed air as long as your speed is >2 Knots. However, for surfacing you always must use compressed air to empty ballast tanks and have the uboat be permanently buoyant (Otherwise it would dive again).

But as I said before, the thing is that most upwards depth changing maneuvers should actually need a bit of compressed air.

[CherryHarbey]

Hi makman,

thank you for your words. for you and a few other people (me included) this might be true, but looking on the download counters for V15C (20 downloads) we are a minority. but I don't care about that. the intention of my work is not downloads or tribute (I am too old for that kind of intention), it's only to have a good game. and I would even continue if there were 1 download (initiated by myself).

By the way: I promised you a DIY for tweaking WP/WO range estimation.
I didn't forget that. Until the DIY is ready, contact me via PM regarding that.

:DL

h.sie

h.sie,
I haven't downloaded a later version since I downloaded your first version, simply because being a technophobe, I would rather do the patch once.
I am very happy with the version I am running, (took me 6 hours game time to repair a damaged propeller once! awesome.) but I am waiting until you say, that's it I can do no more, then I will download that final version straight away.

[h.sie]

Since I am still not totally sure how a compressed air (CA) fix could work, I want to discuss the algorithm BEFORE starting to program. This prevents me from wasting a lot of time: My idea for the fix (correct me if I am wrong):

Definition: dCA is the little amount of CA that is consumed for every depth change into surface direction.

1) The only affected dial is the depth gauge.

2) When a depth change via the depth gauge is ordered, do the following:

Check if ordered depth < current depth.

If no: Change depth
If yes:

Ckeck if speed <= 2kt

If no: Change depth
If yes:

Check if CA > dCA (is CA supply enough?)

If no: Ignore the change depth command.
If yes:

Calculate CA := CA - dCA (Subtract little amount dCA amount from CA supply)
AND
Change depth.

Is this okay?

[h.sie]

Hi CherryHarbey: Nice to know that your life is harder now with the longer repairs. With the new patch-kit patching is easy and takes about 1 minute. but if you don't like that, just wait and update only if important fixes have been added. I could stop working now, but the more I work on this, the more ideas I get (from LGN1 :DL).

Thank you for the reply.
h.sie

[Rubini]

Since I am still not totally sure how a compressed air (CA) fix could work, I want to discuss the algorithm BEFORE starting to program. This prevents me from wasting a lot of time: My idea for the fix (correct me if I am wrong):

Definition: dCA is the little amount of CA that is consumed for every depth change into surface direction.

1) The only affected dial is the depth gauge.

2) When a depth change via the depth gauge is ordered, do the following:

Check if ordered depth < current depth.

If no: Change depth
If yes:

Ckeck if speed <= 2kt

If no: Change depth
If yes:

Check if CA > dCA (is CA supply enough?)

If no: Ignore the change depth command.
If yes:

Calculate CA := CA - dCA (Subtract little amount dCA amount from CA supply)
AND
Change depth.

Is this okay?
Hi h.sie,

How are you mate?
I´m a bit out of Sh3 game lately..this is why i´m a bit absent from this discussion.

First, for me is a surprise that sh3 consumes CA when we hit "S"...I never noted this behaviour, in true I always thinked that it was a feature totally absent on sh3..(well, perhaps I never payed a real full attention on it)...so, are you sure about this?:hmmm:

If so, then the problem is already half way fixed (for me). Perhaps we could also raise the consume a little bit when hit "S", to make it more clear and the game more challenge on this matter?

And I fully agree with Hitman: "But as I said before, the thing is that most upwards depth changing maneuvers should actually need a bit of compressed air. "... for this particular issue seems that your algorithm is very good!:up:

Cheers!

[ryanwigginton]

I am waiting until you say, that's it I can do no more, then I will download that final version

Likewise. I visit this thread almost daily but have not downloaded yet.

[h.sie]

@Rubini: Hi there. I am fine. But "unfortunately" (:)) I have a job and so there is only a little free time in the evening for programming. I will try to realise and implement the CA algorithm/fix. But I don't want to spend too much time for it, because other ideas seem to be more important for me.

@ryanwigginton & CherryHarbey: I don't know if this can ever be finished. There will always be something to optimize. At the moment many new ideas arise and I like very much this type of modding, because (theoretically) there are no (hardcoded) restrictions anymore. . So I don't know if there will be an end in the next months?? (In reality, of course, there are restrictions: my time, my brain, the complexity of assembler code and, interconnected with that, the risks of making errors -> CTD).

Using the Patch-Kit, patching is easy. You are not forced to update to every new version I publish. V15A and V15B are stable. V15C is stable, too, but will be optimised in V15D in the next days.

For me it's much easier to publish patches step-by-step with "little" enhancements / additions instead of working 2 years for my own in silence and then publish the final version V17Z, simply because I need some resonance and dialog to locate errors and so on.

h.sie

[CherryHarbey]

h.sie,
you talked me in to it, I'll give the patch kit a try next time I'm in port.

I guess without feedback on version C, D etc there may not be a version Z.
Version A is a great piece of work and for that alone I owe you the feedback on later versions.
many thanks,
CherryHarbey

[LGN1]

Hi h.sie,

here are some notes about diving procedures,...

http://www.uboatarchive.net/KTBNotesDiving.htm

I am a bit sceptical about your plan. If I understand it correctly, the main amount of compressed air was used when fully surfacing (modeled in SH3) and after ordering a crash dive (when the Untertriebszelle had to be emptied again). During diving the boat was always trimmed with a bit positive buoyancy (in order to keep this state you had to use compressed air when going deeper!). Some of these small changes could also be made by using pumps,... without compressed air. So, I don't know how you want to choose dCA. My feeling is that dCA was very small.

Cheers, LGN1

PS: I am wondering whether the Untertriebszelle (Quick diving tank) is simulated in SH3. My feeling is that yes and it is emptied in SH3 only when the boat is leveled out after a crash dive (it does not use compressed air, I think Edit: WRONG. It does!). If you interupt the sequence it is not emptied --> crash dive blues. I guess this is a true bug. So, it might be a good idea to reduce the CA whenever crash dive is ordered (and fix the crash dive blues :) ).

[h.sie]

Hi LGN1,

Thank you for your effort in doing research. But now I am a little bit confused, because it's getting more and more complicated and even contradictorily and it seems that I first have to study uboat physics before starting to mod compressed air.

does anyone have historical data about how many CA is used for a depth change into surface direction? or in other words: how many depth changes were possible without surfacing and reloading CA? without that information it doesn't make sense to start to program.

and in the meantime I could look into the crash dive blues bug.

h.sie

[Philipp_Thomsen]

Does anybody know if its possible for a submarine to stay afload and head home with one fully flooded compartment?

Probably depends on which compartment, I figure.

I think a small compartment, with fully charged batteries and compressed air, a sub can make back to surface?

The reason I ask is due to the possibility of change sh3.exe to do not display the death screen in case of a fully flooded compartment.

[Rubini]

Does anybody know if its possible for a submarine to stay afload and head home with one fully flooded compartment?

Probably depends on which compartment, I figure.

I think a small compartment, with fully charged batteries and compressed air, a sub can make back to surface?

The reason I ask is due to the possibility of change sh3.exe to do not display the death screen in case of a fully flooded compartment.

Hi PT,

How are you mate?
Yes, that instant depth screen is another annoying immersion killer that perhaps h.sie could look at it too...in true a very important one if could be fixed!:up:

[LGN1]

Hi,

I think the boat had only 3 compartments that could be flooded separately from the others. If one was flooded you could not surface anymore (just trying to escape from the boat if not too deep).

The whole idea of flooding in the single compartments in SH3 is not very realistic (the compartments in SH3 have not much in common with the compartments in real-life). So, fixing the 'instant-death' would not make it in any way more realistic, IMHO. Imagine the radio/hydrophone room flooded completely. How would you go to the bow?

A better solution probably would be that if the water reaches a certain level, water starts to flow to the next rooms,... At some point you have so much water that you cannot keep depth, you sink, and get crushed. The big question is whether this can be modded :D

Cheers, LGN1

Edit: With the tower and the control room flooded you could still surface in principle.

[h.sie]

I have the same information: 3 separate sections, subdivided by 2 pressure-resistant bulkheads. pessimistic that the functionality LGN1 described above can be modelled without SDK. but I'll put it on the todo list for later times with hopefully more experience.

apropos experience: in the last days I got 2 requests from people who wanted information about the tools I use and how to do their own fixes in sh3.exe. somewhere I wrote that I'm a hobby programmer. that's true, but it's also part of my profession and the tools I use are not freely available. I needed five years of education to learn assembler and this cannot be compressed into an instant weekend crashcourse. so please don't be angry with me if I'm not cooperative in this matter.

regarding compressed air (CA): without historically based data it makes no sense for me to start programming. so I let CA untouched for some time until things become more clear -> put to todo list.

[LGN1]

Hi h.sie and all,

it seems that the usage of compressed air after ordering crash dive is actually modeled in SH3 :up: It seems the devs included this!

Just dive and blow ballast so that your compressed air is reduced a bit (you have more than the dial shows. So, with a full compressed air tank you do not see if a small amount is used). Now when the dial is not max. order a crash dive and watch the compressed air dial. Close to the final depth, the dial moves :up: So, it seems the three main sources for compressed air usage are indeed modeled in SH3: blow ballast, complete surface, and after a crash dive :yep: It seems the devs did things better than we (at least me) thought in the beginning :salute:

And the best thing: If you order a new depth before you level out, no compressed air is used, but you suffer from the crash dive blues in NYGM,...

It seems everything fits perfectly. Untertriebszelle is indeed modeled!

Cheers, LGN1

[Rubini]

Hi h.sie and all,

it seems that the usage of compressed air after ordering crash dive is actually modeled in SH3 :up: It seems the devs included this!

Just dive and blow ballast so that your compressed air is reduced a bit (you have more than the dial shows. So, with a full compressed air tank you do not see if a small amount is used). Now when the dial is not max. order a crash dive and watch the compressed air dial. Close to the final depth, the dial moves :up: So, it seems the three main sources for compressed air usage are indeed modeled in SH3: blow ballast, complete surface, and after a crash dive :yep: It seems the devs did things better than we (at least me) thought in the beginning :salute:

And the best thing: If you order a new depth before you level out, no compressed air is used, but you suffer from the crash dive blues in NYGM,...

It seems everything fits perfectly. Untertriebszelle is indeed modeled!

Cheers, LGN1

That is good to know! i never noticed any of these behaviours (and neither pay full attention on the matter too). But some comments: the crash dive blues isn't present on stock sh3 or any other mod than NYGM and it's a colateral effect from the hummerbird mod, not a mod itself, almost a bug, so it can't count as a feature for all.

Also just left the CA as it is now isn't that good, this is why we bring this issue to the discussion.

I just want to reaffirm that something must be done to make CA issue more realistic and challenge (obviously if, in the end, h.sie yet have the time and motivation to make it:up:). Perhaps just making all the above more sensible, more visible to the player? Maybe if we make the dial shows correctly even any small CA consume since the begginning could be enough - as it is now, without eagle eyes on the matter, we can only notice CA variation when we order Blow ballast and nothing more...this is the true problem...:damn:

[h.sie]

Hi Rubini,

the max. value in-game for CA is 205. In Dials.cfg for the CA gauge you have a max. value of 200. So values above 200 cannot be shown. Setting the max. value to 205 in Dials.cfg should do the job (not tested yet).

h.sie

[Philipp_Thomsen]

I still keep hating the death screen. :shifty:

I think that even if you are totally doomed, sub to the bottom of the sea, nothing else you can do, I would prefer to hit ESC and leave the game.

I find extremely distasteful that death screen popping up in my face when I still think there's hope.

Another issue is the death screen popping-up when you're away from computer or in high time-compression. You have no idea what happened, and theres no info on how did you die.

But seems like Im alone on this one... :cry:

[Madox58]

But seems like Im alone on this one... :cry:

Not really.
There may be several options to improve/change things.
:03:
You started me looking at this issue long ago.
I have a few very informed thoughts now on this issue.

[h.sie]

Hi PT,

Hitting the ESC-key is no step forward regarding realism, since real kaleuns also didn't have an ESC-key (forgive me, I couldn't resist). And: High Time-compression also is not realistic. So if you want realism, just don't use TC and so the sudden-death-screen-problem interconnected with high TC disappears. Or in other words: Why do you want the game to behave realistic if you don't operate it in an realistic way?

Why don't you see things positive: The feeling of frustration that you have when death screen is shown, could be seen as part of realism, because real kaleuns surely also were frustrated when things got out of their control, didn't behave as they wanted and death (screen) knocks at their door.

To be honest, even if I want to change the death screen problem: I simply do not know where to start and how to realise it with a simple fix and without re-writing the whole Uboat damage model. Of course it is possible to change the in-game condition when a Uboat is considered as lost. But one has to think about the consequences of such changes.

Imagine there is no death-screen when dieselengine room is floated: Then I would also have to prevent that crew can be moved through this room, e.g. from torpedoroom to communications room. The guys in the torpedoroom are locked.

And, as LGN1 already said: One single floated compartment is not realistic. There are only 3 sections in real Uboats (which are subdivided by 2 pressure-resistant bulkheads). So, in order to make things more realistic, I have also to model that water can flow from one compartment to an adjacant compartment, if there is no bulkhead between them.

And: what happens when you sit at the ground of the sea in 20m depth and the boat doesn't move up because of a completely floated compartment. In real life the crew would try to leave the boat using their tauchretters (oxygen supply that helps swimming to the surface), but this situation is not modelled in SH3. So I fear to open a can of worms when I begin to mod this.

I fear this problem can only be solved in a good way by completely re-writing the Uboat damage model.

Maybe someone now asks: Why doesn't he do that? My answer would be: Take the simple Windows game Minesweeper and try to mod it so that it gives you bonus points instead of penalty every time you hit a mine. Tying to realise that you will get an impression of what can be done in Assembler without SDK and what cannot be done.

@privateer: Although I am pessimistic regarding this topic, I am curious for your idea. Maybe there is a simple solution I didn't see!

h.sie

[makman94]

Hi makman,

thank you for your words. for you and a few other people (me included) this might be true, but looking on the download counters for V15C (20 downloads) we are a minority. but I don't care about that. the intention of my work is not downloads or tribute (I am too old for that kind of intention), it's only to have a good game. and I would even continue if there were 1 download (initiated by myself).

By the way: I promised you a DIY for tweaking WP/WO range estimation.
I didn't forget that. Until the DIY is ready, contact me via PM regarding that.

:DL

h.sie

i know that you haven't forgot me H.Sie !
take your time....i am not in rush...i am also waiting with interest your next achievements :up: Bravo !

[Volk2]

Even some simple, dramatic picture of a sinking uboot would be better than this "game over" screen. Anything would be better. I also hate it.

In some older thread, Hans proposed a movie played instead of this death screen. If only you could tell sh3 to show on death some .tga or even better tga with a .bik in the background (like the game start-screen with periscope in tga and a movie in .bik) it would be great.

[Magic1111]

Even some simple, dramatic picture of a sinking uboot would be better than this "game over" screen. Anything would be better. I also hate it.

In some older thread, Hans proposed a movie played instead of this death screen. If only you could tell sh3 to show on death some .tga or even better tga with a .bik in the background (like the game start-screen with periscope in tga and a movie in .bik) it would be great.

Yes, good idea with the picture and .bik movie !!! :yeah:

I hope, this can be done !

Best regards,
Magic

[h.sie]

Guys, I'm not willing to spend any time for these pure eye-candy things. What about to have a picture of a sinking boat as desktop background image. Then, after the death screen, close sh3 and look (intensively) at that picture. or, if I'm informed correctly, it is even possible to play a movie as desktop background.

[Volk2]

Guys, I'm not willing to spend any time for these pure eye-candy things.

For one person it is an eye-candy, for the other it is immersion - the current death screen breaks immersion. I thought that maybe it will be simple to do, let the game show a custom .tga (we would certainly make a good one) in the background of the current death screen, nothing more. But of course if it is no so simple, then don't bother.

Second thing - the death screen is no "small thing". It is often the culmination moment of a long career and many patrols, it's the death of the crew and uboot with which you were emotionally tied for some time ;)

[fitzcarraldo]

i know that you haven't forgot me H.Sie !
take your time....i am not in rush...i am also waiting with interest your next achievements :up: Bravo !

I didn´t download the mod because the only way of have SH3 plus GWX with FM Interiors is with the 4GbPatch - Without this patch, my machine Intel Core i5 and 4 Gb RAM with graphics ATI Radeon of 1 Gb go direct to CTD. I think this is a good reason of the only 20 downloads. Is there some possibility of make the .bat for the SH3 patched with 4GbPatch?

Regards!

Fitzcarraldo :salute:

[h.sie]

@fitz:

you can apply the 4GB patch after applying "my" patch.

[SquareSteelBar]

...Is there some possibility of make the .bat for the SH3 patched with 4GbPatch?...

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1495393&postcount=161

[h.sie]

Second thing - the death screen is no "small thing". It is often the culmination moment of a long career and many patrols, it's the death of the crew and uboot with which you were emotionally tied for some time ;)

@волк: What do you think, happened during the war? after long patrols, a crew and a boat with which you were emotionally tied for some time, sank / died without asking for permission. that was part of the sad reality I think.

In my opinion, the Uboat is much too less vulnerable against weapons. You can get a hit by a destroyer cannon and are still able to dive. So in my private SH3/GWX installation I reduced armor level and rised the explosion force of some weapons in order to really have a highly damageable boat (and crew) for which I have to take care for. no risks just for fun.

[Volk2]

In my opinion, the Uboat is much too less vulnerable against weapons. You can get a hit by a destroyer cannon and are still able to dive. So in my private SH3/GWX installation I reduced armor level and rised the explosion force of some weapons in order to really have a highly damageable boat (and crew) for which I have to take care for. no risks just for fun.

Yes, I fell quite invulnerable in my campaign, maybe because it's only '41. This makes the death screen an even more critical moment... Believe me, if I could add this .tga to this screen I would do this myself, but I can't, so don't be angry if I'm trying to persuade the only person here able to do this ;)

And maybe you will some day release your's modification of damage model, it looks interesting, I agree that the uboat is too tough.

[h.sie]

I am not angry. I am thankful, even if there is a little sarcasm in my last words.

cannot the death screen image simply be replaced by another image???

[Volk2]

cannot the death screen image simply be replaced by another image???

To be serious, it looks like there is a way without use of assembler:

The Death Screen you see is a Camera Path in the EventCamera.dat
There are numerous events paths in that dat.
S3D should allow you to move/adjust them.

No real change was released to this day, but maybe Privateer or Hans have done something about this and didn't yet released. So maybe it really is a problem with which you should not bother.

[Philipp_Thomsen]

Hi PT,

Hitting the ESC-key is no step forward regarding realism, since real kaleuns also didn't have an ESC-key (forgive me, I couldn't resist). And: High Time-compression also is not realistic. So if you want realism, just don't use TC and so the sudden-death-screen-problem interconnected with high TC disappears. Or in other words: Why do you want the game to behave realistic if you don't operate it in an realistic way?

You suggest me to play in 1x TC and take 5 years to finish a career? This is a GAME, not real life. We adapt the game to be as realistic as we can, but we are not going to build a room that looks like the interior of a VIIC, with red and blue lights, so we can play. Sometimes we have to aim for realism, other times we have to aim for playability. That death screen creeps every single soul in this forum, except you (for the looks of it). It has been object of discussion long before you joined subsim.

Why don't you see things positive: The feeling of frustration that you have when death screen is shown, could be seen as part of realism, because real kaleuns surely also were frustrated when things got out of their control, didn't behave as they wanted and death (screen) knocks at their door.

Frustration? The death screen for me is as frustrating as it would be to stop the movie at any given time when you're in the theater. Stop the movie with an error message. It pisses me off, and not just me. Some times the death screen is shown way before you would actually die in real life. We are not asking to get rid of the death screen, only pospone it to the last second of life of the crew and kaleu.

To be honest, even if I want to change the death screen problem: I simply do not know where to start and how to realise it with a simple fix and without re-writing the whole Uboat damage model. Of course it is possible to change the in-game condition when a Uboat is considered as lost. But one has to think about the consequences of such changes.


We are not here asking for YOU to change it. We are merely talking to eachother and discussing ideas/options about what to do. We are exposing what we like and hate, what we would like changed or not. Don't take it so personal.

Imagine there is no death-screen when dieselengine room is floated: Then I would also have to prevent that crew can be moved through this room, e.g. from torpedoroom to communications room. The guys in the torpedoroom are locked.

The idea is to keep it simple. Dont need to go so far, dont need to get rid of death screen, just postpone it. Make it work different. What pisses people of is the ability of the computer to calculate that you will die in 15 minutes, and show you the death screen NOW! We dont want it now, we want it after the 15 minutes, we want to accept the fact we are dead before we are dead, not be surprised by it with the game coming to a halt and saying "You will die soon, so I figure I would stop the game right now to save you time."

And, as LGN1 already said: One single floated compartment is not realistic. There are only 3 sections in real Uboats (which are subdivided by 2 pressure-resistant bulkheads). So, in order to make things more realistic, I have also to model that water can flow from one compartment to an adjacant compartment, if there is no bulkhead between them.

And: what happens when you sit at the ground of the sea in 20m depth and the boat doesn't move up because of a completely floated compartment. In real life the crew would try to leave the boat using their tauchretters (oxygen supply that helps swimming to the surface), but this situation is not modelled in SH3. So I fear to open a can of worms when I begin to mod this.

You ALREADY opened the can of worms by opening this thread. Now people are curious and flooding you with questions and requests. They feel its finally here the opportunity to get rid of a lot of things modders could never do before.

I fear this problem can only be solved in a good way by completely re-writing the Uboat damage model.

Maybe someone now asks: Why doesn't he do that? My answer would be: Take the simple Windows game Minesweeper and try to mod it so that it gives you bonus points instead of penalty every time you hit a mine. Tying to realise that you will get an impression of what can be done in Assembler without SDK and what cannot be done.


We are not here saying its easy and you don't want to do cos you're lazy. Yes, we know its hard, we know it takes time, patience, knowledge... I've been modding sh3 for over 5 years now, I know sometimes it can be a pain in the @ss. But there's no reason to despair: You did the major step, to open people's eyes to the vast possibilities hidden inside the executable file. It has been a taboo here in subsim for many many years, its the first time someone brings it up and its not shot down. Now I can see more and more people working on it, and more results coming from it. Its all heading in the right direction, and we're not in a hurry. We've been playing sh3 for years, and we this much development still going, I dont see reasons to quit.

You opened the can of worms. People will come all over you like zombies in resident evil. Just hang in there!

Also, on a side-note. You made a mod that fixes one of the things modders couldn't fix before, the flooding+repair times. You got only 20 downloads? I tell you why. Most subsimmers want things easy: if you tell them your mod only works under very specific conditions, and they have to follow a long list of steps to make it work, and they might have to even buy a new software to use your mod? Most people will just stick with the old stuff. And it's not your fault at all. It's the damn taboo about messing with the executable file. I believe we are in the breach of a new discovery, new mods will come out of it, as more people starts to step into the forbidden lands and come with results. I believe much has already been done with the executable, by some people with skills, but they don't share or even mention it here, cos it might be troublesome for them. Forum rules.

Someone have to step-in and take the first bullet (or not). If I had the skills, I would have put sh3.exe for download here already, just to see what happens. Worst case scenario, I would have to make a new account. But after so many years, I dont really think ubisoft would care. Its just forum policy.

I'd like to hear something from Neal on this.

[Magic1111]

Guys, I'm not willing to spend any time for these pure eye-candy things

....yes, maybe you´ve right....:hmmm:

Best regards,
Magic

[Volk2]

Someone have to step-in and take the first bullet (or not). If I had the skills, I would have put sh3.exe for download here already, just to see what happens. Worst case scenario, I would have to make a new account. But after so many years, I dont really think ubisoft would care. Its just forum policy.

If any person needs a good sh3.exe, he can PM me. Still, he must himself do the very simple modification (you must just run the .bat file...) prepared by h.sie.

And you see, h.sie, how the death screen makes people angry, it really must be cursed ;) In comparison with Philipp_Thomsen suggestions, my suggestion about a simple .tga was nothing, hehe.

[Rubini]

Yes, good idea with the picture and .bik movie !!! :yeah:

I hope, this can be done !

Best regards,
Magic

Yes, I agree too. If nothing better could be done on the matter, a good .tga or a movie will be very very better than what we have now.
And again, perhaps this could be doable without the .exe mod?:hmmm:
The privateer's idea must be investigated...:yep:

[Rubini]

Hi Rubini,

the max. value in-game for CA is 205. In Dials.cfg for the CA gauge you have a max. value of 200. So values above 200 cannot be shown. Setting the max. value to 205 in Dials.cfg should do the job (not tested yet).

h.sie
ASAP, when I return to my sh3 mod hobby (i need a special wife license now):DL, I will look at this. Put it deeper on the to do list, probably just modding the dial will solve the problem then!:up:

[Philipp_Thomsen]

Don't forget its possible to randomize the picture or movie with Sh3 Commander. :up:

[fitzcarraldo]

@fitz:

you can apply the 4GB patch after applying "my" patch.

Many thanks! I´ll try that. :yeah:

Fitzcarraldo :salute:

[fitzcarraldo]

"You suggest me to play in 1x TC and take 5 years to finish a career? This is a GAME, not real life. We adapt the game to be as realistic as we can, but we are not going to build a room that looks like the interior of a VIIC, with red and blue lights, so we can play. Sometimes we have to aim for realism, other times we have to aim for playability. That death screen creeps every single soul in this forum, except you (for the looks of it). It has been object of discussion long before you joined subsim."

Oh...I like that control room in my house:woot: Nothing make a periscope simulation as the cockpit of an airliner for Flight Simulator? ;)

And I hate the death screen. After a long patrol and a long fight, I return to reality: "This is a game, and game over!!!" :nope:

Modifications of the death screen is very interesting, but seems hard coded in the damage model.

Regards.

Fitzcarraldo :salute:

[Madox58]

Someone have to step-in and take the first bullet (or not). If I had the skills, I would have put sh3.exe for download here already, just to see what happens. Worst case scenario, I would have to make a new account. But after so many years, I dont really think ubisoft would care. Its just forum policy.


The SH3.exe has already been modded with the 4 gig patch.
Ubi themselves indorsed the Reloaded hack of several files.
MultiSH3 changes another file located in the root folder.
It's time to take the gloves off and go big!
:yep:
If Neal is not comfortable with us modding the .exe and other files?
We do it elsewhere.
Word of Mouth would let people find it.
I'm not trying to end run Neal mind you.
I'm just saying there are options and I do feel the time has come
to embrace them.
(It's long past time actually)

[h.sie]

Does anyone have historical data / info about the maximum speed that is allowed to make sure that the periscopes don't get damaged?

[Madox58]

I seem to recall 7 knots for some reason.
:hmmm:
But don't hold me to that!
:)

[Philipp_Thomsen]

According to something I'd read long ago, 7 kts.

Since uboats dont go past that speed submerged, theres nothing to worry about.

[fitzcarraldo]

According to something I'd read long ago, 7 kts.

Since uboats dont go past that speed submerged, theres nothing to worry about.

Yes, 7 knots, according the book "U-boats at war", Harald Busch. I don´t know if a SH3 boat, with submerged velocity modded, simulates this fact and cause damage to periscope (I think "no"!)

Regards.

Fitzcarraldo :salute:

[SquareSteelBar]

...i need a special wife license now...It's hard to achieve... :damn:

[h.sie]

No, this sort of damage is not modelled in SH3.

There was a so called "reality-thread" somewhere here in the forum where someone wrote that he uses his periscopes only with speed < xxx knots. So I thought this would be an halfway easy-to-fix issue.
but if it's correct to use the peris submerged with flank speed, there is no need for a fix.

[Gammel]

How about snorkeling?

[Hitman]

The main problem are vibrations. Anything over 4 knots or so, and the image is so blurred you can't see anything, even if it doesn't get damaged. Anyway, the electric motors did not have power to push a submerged uboat at more than 7 knots, so this would be a question only for the XXI/XXIII. The case of teh schnorkel mast is different, as the diesels do have the power to do so. But IIRC the limitation comes again from vibrations, damage to the tube and its small size (You can't suck all needed air through it for the diesels at flank), so they were limited tos chnorkel at 5 knots or so.

In fact, the truth is that uboats did NOT travel schnorkeling to and from the base, what they did was travel on electric motors and then schnorkel four hours a day to recharge batteries and again go on electrics. Was much safer and comfortable than schnorkeling all the way.

[Hitman]

The SH3.exe has already been modded with the 4 gig patch.
Ubi themselves indorsed the Reloaded hack of several files.
MultiSH3 changes another file located in the root folder.
It's time to take the gloves off and go big!
:yep:
If Neal is not comfortable with us modding the .exe and other files?
We do it elsewhere.
Word of Mouth would let people find it.
I'm not trying to end run Neal mind you.
I'm just saying there are options and I do feel the time has come
to embrace them.
(It's long past time actually)

Careful with that can of worms. I have allowed the discussion here because it is a patch or exe applied to someone's legitimate SH3.exe. I.e., no UBI files, hacked or not, are distributed at all, and it can only be applied to a SH3.exe you already own (How you got that exe is not our business, obviously, but we presume it must be legitmate unless we have reasons to think otherwise).

As long as you guys keep distributing a patch or program that:

1) Does not contain any UBI files
2) Does apply only to the user's legitimate and in his HDD installed game

It should be OK. Mind you, I don't think it should be so difficult for you guys to create a simple nice interface for the patcher that offers you a list of items to check before applying the patch (CO2 limit, IWO ranges not precise, etc.).

[h.sie]

My patches (V15C and so on) can only be applied on the whole, including all fixes. But for every single fix I programmed the opportunity to bypass / disable the fix. So the configuration-program's work would only be to toggle some I/O-switches (bits) ON or OFF in sh3.exe. I'll maybe do that myself in the future (if my fixing-work here is done), but I also plan to publish the addresses of the switches, so that one can toggle the switches using a hex-editor. Phew.

[SquareSteelBar]

...1) Does not contain any UBI files...I think any mod here contains [changed] UBI files... :hmmm:

[Hitman]

I think any mod here contains [changed] UBI files... :hmmm:

True, I should have said it more precisely: Files that are EXEs or APIs (DLLs), i.e. part of the core program and not peripheral accesories to that (Graphics, Sounds, Defitions of sensors capabilities, 3D models etc)

Thanks for pointing that out :up:

[h.sie]

I think we should be thankful that Hitman tolerates this sort of modding.

Not necessary to upload the sh3.exe. Everyone who really wants my fixes should be willing to spend about 5 minutes time to do the patching - or eventually spend some bucks to buy the starforce-free sh3 version. For comparison: Because I wanted the longer repair times so much, I spent months to fix that. 5 minutes for simple patching are nothing compared to that.

[SquareSteelBar]

:up:

[Gammel]

your work has already pushed the sales h.sie - i'm waiting for my green pepper edition to arrive.
Please carry on with modding and please have a look at the snorkeling speed :D

[reaper7]

I think we should be thankful that Hitman tolerates this sort of modding.

Not necessary to upload the sh3.exe. Everyone who really wants my fixes should be willing to spend about 5 minutes time to do the patching - or eventually spend some bucks to buy the starforce-free sh3 version. For comparison: Because I wanted the longer repair times so much, I spent months to fix that. 5 minutes for simple patching are nothing compared to that.

Well, ubi just got another sale of SH3 from me due to your wok h.sie. :03:

So your patches are good for business. :up:

[Philipp_Thomsen]

This starforce-free version of sh3 requires the dvd on the drive to play?

If so, its a no-no for me (and a lot of other people here).

[h.sie]

no, the starforce-free version doesn't require the CD to run

[Hartmann]

This is the final revenge of starforce

Forced to buy again the same Game to have a starforce free version :nope::damn:

[makman94]

True, I should have said it more precisely: Files that are EXEs or APIs (DLLs), i.e. part of the core program and not peripheral accesories to that (Graphics, Sounds, Defitions of sensors capabilities, 3D models etc)

Thanks for pointing that out :up:

and why is that Hitman ? i mean the forum policy for the .exe and .dll ? i always had this question in my mind ...seriously i don't see any reason ...
it is exactly the same with editing images or importing-exporting 3d models,what is the difference ?

to 'run' before you at the reply of this stand , i have read somewhere in forum that the reason is that if moders starts uploading .exe and .dll files then everyone will be able to collect all the necessery files in order to play the game without buying it ... is this the reason ?? if ,indeed, this is the real reason....then we can 'solve' this ''issue'' by setting an agreement on which SPECIFIC .dll or .act files will be untouched and never uploaded(such as the kernel.dll for example) so everyone will have to buy the original game if we wants to play it.

i haven't read any other reason than the above anywhere and as for the ubi...i think that (if ever 'look' down here) will start shaking with happiness both hands in the air becuase its 'dead' sh3 still will sale like a new shiny game !!

now, that i am thinking it ...this will 'kill' their sh5 (or their next sh6 and sh7...i have many reasons to believe that there will be sh6 and sh7 and not becuase they like making 'subsims'...they like ...money... a lot...) so maybe this could be a real reason for having problem with the sh3's .exe

@H.Sie , sorry for being off topic ...will not happen again

[Hitman]

In many games that are open for modding you can easily distinguish between two types of files, the ones that are the program core, what runs on your processor, and all the other accesory ones. When a game company closes an eye to modding his game, it's the accesory files what are involved, and that is the reason they are not protected but instead "open" and can be easily edited, sometimes even with windows tools (Notepad, paint ...)

The code in turn is protected as it is what constitutes the main effort of the programmer, and as such is encoded in one or the other way. This illustrates the will from the propietary company to prevent any intrussion into it, both to prevent piracy and to prevent other rival companies access to the technology resulting from his (frequently costly) efforts.

We could of course try to go further and make more subtle differences as you suggest, but for simplicity's sake and for the intention of respecting the evident intention of game companies, subsim.com draws an easily recognizable line in those core files, and does not allow any distribution of modified ones here.

Thanks for your understanding guys, we try to make this a serious and enjoyable web for everyone :up:

[Victor Schutze]

I just re-bought SH3 to be able to patch it with V15C-the Revival version as seen here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1509482#post1509482 -

I applied the V15C patch on a fresh install as showed at the beginning of this thread. I created a "working directory" folder on my desktop, put the SH3.exe in it along with the decompressed V15C files.The result:
"Starting checksums verification : date/hour

All files verified successfully..

End..

Making backup SH3.old..

Patching....
'bspatch' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.

exit."

I get SH3.old but no SH3.exe in my "working directory" folder.:nope:

what is going on?Don't tell me the Revival version is not patchable because it is already sold starforce free AND patched to 1.4b version:damn::wah:

[h.sie]

if the checksum verification is successful, you have surely the correct version. I guess, that it could be a write permission problem or similar related to your operating system. what OS do you have?

and: is there an bspatch.exe file in your working directory?

[Victor Schutze]

if the checksum verification is successful, you have surely the correct version. I guess, that it could be a write permission problem or similar related to your operating system. what OS do you have?

and: is there an bspatch.exe file in your working directory?

I run win xp sp3 32bit. can't be a write permission problem: I have administrator rigths. There are four files: Patch_SH3.bat, V15C, fciv.exe, MD5.xml. Is it supposed to leave a new SH3.exe in the directory?

***EDIT*** ooops, It seems I did not have the bspatch.exe in the directory. My mistake. New SH3.exe file is 1.28MB instead of 1.26MB. I should be able to apply 4GB patch now!? Thank you for your help h.sie

[Magic1111]

I run win xp sp3 32bit. can't be a write permission problem: I have administrator rigths. There are four files: Patch_SH3.bat, V15C, fciv.exe, MD5.xml. Is it supposed to leave a new SH3.exe in the directory?

I´ve XP SP3 32bit too, look at my Screenshot, these files must be in one Folder and then run the .bat File and all works fine:

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/8076/bild092.jpg (http://img821.imageshack.us/i/bild092.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Best regards,
Magic

[h.sie]

yup , now you can apply the 4GB patch

[Victor Schutze]

Thank you h.sie and Magic1111. Every thing is fine for now.:) Could you be kind enough to show me a "print screen" of your JSGME and your active MODS? I always had a tough time with certain mods that overwrite others and yield unexpected results. I lost so many patrols to save files failures. I am trying to come back to SH3 at 100% realism now:DL

[Magic1111]

Thank you h.sie and Magic1111. Every thing is fine for now.:) Could you be kind enough to show me a "print screen" of your JSGME and your active MODS? I always had a tough time with certain mods that overwrite others and yield unexpected results. I lost so many patrols to save files failures. I am trying to come back to SH3 at 100% realism now:DL

This is my MOD list based on GWX 3.0 (all in correct order and from me personally adjusted):

01_GWX 3 Wilhemshafen,St Naz,Schluese and xtra ships V6
02_GWX - Captain America's Officer Icons
03_GWX - 16km Atmosphere
04_GWX - Enhanced Damage Effects
05_GWX - Late War Sensors Snorkel Antennas
06_GWX - No Medals on Crew
07_GWX - Open Hatch Mod
08_GWX - VIIC41 Player Sub
09_U-Boat Bases Map with New St Nazaire
10_WBNN Mission Orders
11_LifeBoats&Debris_v4
12_Rbs1_SH4_Effects_GWX_30_71
13_TMT v2 + ThomsensShips V4.2
14_Unofficial_rockets_fix_GWX3.0
15_German Cruiser fix
16_Visible U-Marker
17_RadioMsg V 0.1
18_Sub_ Image_MOD
19_Leitz Fernglas
20_Rapt0r's Uniforms V2.0
21_New Uboat Guns 1.2
22_Foam 256x256
23_Conus' Historically Accurate U-boat Emblems 1.3
24_Das Boot Sound MOD + Grammophone Lieder
25_Officer Faces
26_OLC's Modified Searchlight Beams for GWX3
27_Waterstream+Exhaust Combi V2.3 for GWX3
28_Waterstream+Exhaust Combi - Single Exhaust for TypeII
29_GWX_SH4StyleFlag_fullModel
30_SH4Style_flag_fastSpeed
31_SH4Style_flagS_midSpeed
32_GWX_DFa-Flag&Pens_2010
33_GWX - Rafael DSK GUI
34_h.sie's LLRT+SRM+LWS-Combimod V1.1 for GWX3
35_Seafloor SF V3 Final
36_GWX_Eigene_Änderungen
37_No continuous 'Ship spotted' V1.1 for GWX3+Rubinis RocketFix
38_FM30_UpDown_final+No continuous Ship spotted+Rocket Fix
39_WB's Deck Gun Range
40_WB's Decks Awash and Fuel Economy
41_Torpedo damage Final ver2.0
42_Q Ship mod GWX3.0
43_Rapt0r's DBSM Addon [FIX 1.4]
44_Rapt0r's Instruments V3.5 [Without Red Circle]
45_ENV_MEP1a-Normal-Nights
46_ENV_MEP2a-Dark-Nights
47_New_clearsky_clouds
48_Colored Hull Integrity Indicator
49_FM_NewInterior_V1.0
50_FM_NI_Fix_for_Anvart_FM30_UpDown
51_b25Wide_Camera_mit Settings von LSH
52_b25_SF@Grass_1024
53_WAC4.1 SubPen_animated_18.02.2010
54_Colored_Map
55_Combined SH3.SDL_Commands_Harbor
56_Frictions U-123 Blackhull IX
57_Urfischs_ModStrike
58_U-Boat III Alpha Version
59_SH3-Fix_SN_2_Stock
60_Torpedo explosion
61_Wac Animated Sub Pens interior start for GWX
62_Undersea_Mod_Reworked
63_LLRT2
64_Aces' Multimod compatability fix release v1.2
65_Kiel Map Detail
66_Neue Textur Minensucher 1935
67_Q Ship mod for GWX3 - Reloaded
68_TMTv2+ThomsensShips v4.4 for GWX3+Xtra ships
69_Mine+UAW Netze by TP
70_BMW-R75 v.1 by TP
71_Aces' Super Pens v4 GWX3 Version
72_Torpedo_HAHD_1024_GWX

But please note: When I use the patched SH3.exe from h.sie´s MOD (from this Thread) I must delete MOD # 63 (Little longer Repair Time from h.sie).

Best regards,
Magic

[h.sie]

hi magic,

yours is longer than mine

(mod list)

[Victor Schutze]

This is my MOD list based on GWX 3.0 (all in correct order and from me personally adjusted):

01_GWX 3 Wilhemshafen,St Naz,Schluese and xtra ships V6
02_GWX - Captain America's Officer Icons
03_GWX - 16km Atmosphere
04_GWX - Enhanced Damage Effects
05_GWX - Late War Sensors Snorkel Antennas
06_GWX - No Medals on Crew
07_GWX - Open Hatch Mod
08_GWX - VIIC41 Player Sub
09_U-Boat Bases Map with New St Nazaire
10_WBNN Mission Orders
11_LifeBoats&Debris_v4
12_Rbs1_SH4_Effects_GWX_30_71
13_TMT v2 + ThomsensShips V4.2
14_Unofficial_rockets_fix_GWX3.0
15_German Cruiser fix
16_Visible U-Marker
17_RadioMsg V 0.1
18_Sub_ Image_MOD
19_Leitz Fernglas
20_Rapt0r's Uniforms V2.0
21_New Uboat Guns 1.2
22_Foam 256x256
23_Conus' Historically Accurate U-boat Emblems 1.3
24_Das Boot Sound MOD + Grammophone Lieder
25_Officer Faces
26_OLC's Modified Searchlight Beams for GWX3
27_Waterstream+Exhaust Combi V2.3 for GWX3
28_Waterstream+Exhaust Combi - Single Exhaust for TypeII
29_GWX_SH4StyleFlag_fullModel
30_SH4Style_flag_fastSpeed
31_SH4Style_flagS_midSpeed
32_GWX_DFa-Flag&Pens_2010
33_GWX - Rafael DSK GUI
34_h.sie's LLRT+SRM+LWS-Combimod V1.1 for GWX3
35_Seafloor SF V3 Final
36_GWX_Eigene_Änderungen
37_No continuous 'Ship spotted' V1.1 for GWX3+Rubinis RocketFix
38_FM30_UpDown_final+No continuous Ship spotted+Rocket Fix
39_WB's Deck Gun Range
40_WB's Decks Awash and Fuel Economy
41_Torpedo damage Final ver2.0
42_Q Ship mod GWX3.0
43_Rapt0r's DBSM Addon [FIX 1.4]
44_Rapt0r's Instruments V3.5 [Without Red Circle]
45_ENV_MEP1a-Normal-Nights
46_ENV_MEP2a-Dark-Nights
47_New_clearsky_clouds
48_Colored Hull Integrity Indicator
49_FM_NewInterior_V1.0
50_FM_NI_Fix_for_Anvart_FM30_UpDown
51_b25Wide_Camera_mit Settings von LSH
52_b25_SF@Grass_1024
53_WAC4.1 SubPen_animated_18.02.2010
54_Colored_Map
55_Combined SH3.SDL_Commands_Harbor
56_Frictions U-123 Blackhull IX
57_Urfischs_ModStrike
58_U-Boat III Alpha Version
59_SH3-Fix_SN_2_Stock
60_Torpedo explosion
61_Wac Animated Sub Pens interior start for GWX
62_Undersea_Mod_Reworked
63_LLRT2
64_Aces' Multimod compatability fix release v1.2
65_Kiel Map Detail
66_Neue Textur Minensucher 1935
67_Q Ship mod for GWX3 - Reloaded
68_TMTv2+ThomsensShips v4.4 for GWX3+Xtra ships
69_Mine+UAW Netze by TP
70_BMW-R75 v.1 by TP
71_Aces' Super Pens v4 GWX3 Version
72_Torpedo_HAHD_1024_GWX

But please note: When I use the patched SH3.exe from h.sie´s MOD (from this Thread) I must delete MOD # 63 (Little longer Repair Time from h.sie).

Best regards,
Magic

Thanks a ton Magic1111! I'll try your mods! :salute:

[Victor Schutze]

hi magic,

yours is longer than mine

(mod list)

Don't worry h.sie you're not the only one to be "outlonged" by Magic1111:haha: I am as well

[h.sie]

regarding magics long list:

i strongly recommend not to use any "longer repair times" mods like h.sie's LLRT in conjunction with my patched exe. they are obsolete now.

if i were you i would start with blank SH3+GWX and would install only those mods I really need - in order to prevent mod-salad.

[Magic1111]

if i were you i would start with blank SH3+GWX and would install only those mods I really need - in order to prevent mod-salad.

Yes, I agree this, because it costs me days, weeks and month (and often frustation :wah:) to create my MODs in this order, that I can play without any mistakes or CTD´s !

Best regards,
Magic

[Madox58]

Careful with that can of worms. I have allowed the discussion here because it is a patch or exe applied to someone's legitimate SH3.exe. I.e., no UBI files, hacked or not, are distributed at all, and it can only be applied to a SH3.exe you already own (How you got that exe is not our business, obviously, but we presume it must be legitmate unless we have reasons to think otherwise).

As long as you guys keep distributing a patch or program that:

1) Does not contain any UBI files
2) Does apply only to the user's legitimate and in his HDD installed game

It should be OK. Mind you, I don't think it should be so difficult for you guys to create a simple nice interface for the patcher that offers you a list of items to check before applying the patch (CO2 limit, IWO ranges not precise, etc.).

I have suggested in the past patching the files in question.
Not releaseing full blown edited versions.
There is no reason to have to spend even 1 minute to patch files by hand.
A proper patch would do it automagically.

And the 'Can of Worms' is not under my control.
I think you took my post in the wrong lite.
I'd think you know me well enuff by now to know I would not release
full versions of said files.

[SquareSteelBar]

...There is no reason to have to spend even 1 minute to patch files by hand.
A proper patch would do it automagically...h.sie's 'patch-batch' does it properly... :up:

[Hitman]

I have suggested in the past patching the files in question.
Not releaseing full blown edited versions.
There is no reason to have to spend even 1 minute to patch files by hand.
A proper patch would do it automagically.

And the 'Can of Worms' is not under my control.
I think you took my post in the wrong lite.
I'd think you know me well enuff by now to know I would not release
full versions of said files.

I know I can trust you Jeff, it was more a matter of advicing other (newer) members before they replied to your post and the same old discussion opened again :up:

[h.sie]

So would it be a good idea to restrict the snorkeling speed to a certain value (about 5 knots)? (that would be easier than giving the snorkel a damage penalty when used for speed > 5kts.)

Should I try to consider wave height? if yes, I need details. Thanks, guys.

[Hitman]

So would it be a good idea to restrict the snorkeling speed to a certain value (about 5 knots)?

that would be easier than giving the snorkel a damage penalty when used for speed > 5kts.

Well if that is possible it sure would be the best solution. :yeah:

Only problem is that we would be going flank for 5 knots then? Seems problematic due to fuel consumption, noise, etc.

It must work with ahead 2/3 at most :hmmm:

[h.sie]

to be completely sure I didn't misunderstand you:

restricting speed (and fuel consumtion/noise accordingly) would do the job?

[Philipp_Thomsen]

Dont worry about fuel consumption. No need to link snorkel damage to engine speed, just to SPEED.

Player will select whatever engine speed he wants, as long as the uboat total speed doesnt surpass 5kts.

[Philipp_Thomsen]

There's one more thing that needs fixing, might be on the .exe.

Last patrol I was depth charged and they destroyed my tube 5, on my IXB.

I had a torpedo inside that tube, so I ask the crew to unload it, so I could load it at tube 6, which was intact.

The torpedo kept being reloaded back on tube 5, I couldnt switch to tube 6.

Is that realistic? Or was it possible to make the switch?

[h.sie]

maybe torpedo got damaged, too, or tube was damaged so that removing torpedo wasn't possible?

[Philipp_Thomsen]

For the torpedo tube get so damaged that you cannot even retrieve the torpedo, I guess the uboat would be doomed.

But in sh3, you can unload the torpedo, and after its fully unloaded, you ask the crew to reaload that torpedo on a different tube, its not done. They reaload in the same torpedo tube as it was before.

[Philipp_Thomsen]

Does the sh3.exe have the controller for switching to diesel/electric independent from being surfaced/submerged?

Its a very important thing to change.

[CherryHarbey]

There's one more thing that needs fixing, might be on the .exe.

Last patrol I was depth charged and they destroyed my tube 5, on my IXB.

I had a torpedo inside that tube, so I ask the crew to unload it, so I could load it at tube 6, which was intact.

The torpedo kept being reloaded back on tube 5, I couldnt switch to tube 6.

Is that realistic? Or was it possible to make the switch?

Apologies if your problem was more complex......
but did you have the Auto-loading box ticked?
If you un-tick this box you can usually choose which tube to load into with simple drag and drop.

[Philipp_Thomsen]

Apologies if your problem was more complex......
but did you have the Auto-loading box ticked?
If you un-tick this box you can usually choose which tube to load into with simple drag and drop.

Yep, I've tried.

No donut.

[h.sie]

Does the sh3.exe have the controller for switching to diesel/electric independent from being surfaced/submerged?

Its a very important thing to change.

already on the todo list

:)

[Philipp_Thomsen]

JUST REMEMBERED!

The most important thing to fix (at least in my head, as a sound modder) is to add a trigger to use one ambient sound file when ur submerged, and another for surfaced.

Then, we can start using sounds that fit the situation. No more diesel engine sound when you're submerged. No more crew chatting while having dinner at the same time you're in rig for silent running, being depth charged.

By the way, another trigger for silent running too.

If that can be done, I will work on the sound itself.

[h.sie]

...my focus is currently not on sound issues. maybe later.

regarding manual switching between electric and diesel engines when surfaced: this would only make sense if the ememy could hear you better with diesels and worse with electric engines. but in the current state, the enemy doesn't hear you at all if surfaced, regardless of diesel or electric engines running.

h.sie

[LGN1]

The main problem are vibrations. Anything over 4 knots or so, and the image is so blurred you can't see anything, even if it doesn't get damaged. Anyway, the electric motors did not have power to push a submerged uboat at more than 7 knots, so this would be a question only for the XXI/XXIII. The case of teh schnorkel mast is different, as the diesels do have the power to do so. But IIRC the limitation comes again from vibrations, damage to the tube and its small size (You can't suck all needed air through it for the diesels at flank), so they were limited tos chnorkel at 5 knots or so.

In fact, the truth is that uboats did NOT travel schnorkeling to and from the base, what they did was travel on electric motors and then schnorkel four hours a day to recharge batteries and again go on electrics. Was much safer and comfortable than schnorkeling all the way.

Hi Hitman,

do you have any sources for the max. speed the periscope could be used? And at what speeds it became useless? I ask because I could not find any real data and there is nothing mentioned in the original U-Boot Handbuch :hmmm: Maybe it's not mentioned because no Kaleun would use it at such speeds because of the higher detection chance?

On a different subject: Can you confirm that the hydrophone could not be used when snorkeling? Do you know the max. sea state at which the snorkel could be used?

Cheers, LGN1

[Sailor Steve]

JUST REMEMBERED!

The most important thing to fix (at least in my head, as a sound modder) is to add a trigger to use one ambient sound file when ur submerged, and another for surfaced.

Then, we can start using sounds that fit the situation. No more diesel engine sound when you're submerged. No more crew chatting while having dinner at the same time you're in rig for silent running, being depth charged.

By the way, another trigger for silent running too.

If that can be done, I will work on the sound itself.
That is a brilliant idea! FM's New Interiors adds diesel sounds to the interior when surfaced, but they have problems. Having a separate Ambient Interior file that runs when surfaced is the perfect solution...if it can be made to work.

[LGN1]

Just an addendum to the compressed air consumption when you use crash dive. It seems the amount you need depends on the crash depth in your NSS_Uboat*.cfg file. If you have a deep crash depth more compressed air is used. This makes sense because the pressure is higher when you level out (however, historically the Quick Diving Tank had to be emptied close to the surface).

It's also noteworthy that there is a small gap between the blowing of the Quick Diving Tank and the leveling of the dive planes. So, if you want to dive quickly to a great depth and avoid the crash dive blues in NYGM, you should order crash depth and watch the compressed air dial. As soon as it stops to move (close to the crash depth) you should order the new depth (you might have to correct the compressed air dial in dials.cfg in the menu folder).

[h.sie]

In the first version of my snorkel fix I modified the routines which are resposible for the machine telegraph: If the boat is currently snorkelling and I order a new speed which is faster than 2/3 ahead, the speed order is automatically reduced to 2/3 ahead. This worked well.
But unfortumately, that solution was not sufficient, because if you e.g. drive surfaced with flank speed and then dive to snorkel depth, no speed change is ordered and thus the boat will be still on flank speed when snorkelling.

So for my second version I’m programming a routine that checks the speed every 10 seconds when snorkelling. More exactly: There is already such a routine that makes calculations every 10 seconds, and I simply modify it. Every time a speed above 5knots is detected while snorkeling, a WM_KEYPRESS message for the key “2” will be generated, so that the executable thinks the user pressed “2” to order new speed 2/3 ahead. Optimistic that it will work.

Now I’m thinking about how to consider Wind speed / wave height. Possible values could be:

Wind speed 0-5m/s: Speed will be reduced to 2/3 ahead.
Wind speed 6-10m/s: Speed will be reduced to slow ahead.
Wind speed > 10m/s: Snorkelling not possible. Engines will be stopped by the watch routine.

Are these historically correct?

[h.sie]

by the way: I think I found out why high time compression leads to numerous problems:

there is an internal master routine in sh3.exe that is executed once per second and recalculates millions of variables: weather changes, detection probablilities, every little fart of the crew. this is no problem for modern CPUs, all calculations are done in a fraction of a second. When time compression is 2x, the routine has to be executed twice per second to give an exact simulation. No problem. Even 64x works, the routine is executed 64 times per second.

But when I chose TC=128x on my average PC, the routine cannot be executed 128 times per second, it is only executed about 100 times. the missing 28 calculations are cancelled, because otherwise program flow would be jammed. When I now rise TC to 1024, the routine can still be executed only 100 times per second, but it should be executed 1024 times. this discrepancy leads to very inaccurate, defective simulation results in some aspects.

[Hitman]

Hi Hitman,

do you have any sources for the max. speed the periscope could be used? And at what speeds it became useless? I ask because I could not find any real data and there is nothing mentioned in the original U-Boot Handbuch :hmmm: Maybe it's not mentioned because no Kaleun would use it at such speeds because of the higher detection chance?

On a different subject: Can you confirm that the hydrophone could not be used when snorkeling? Do you know the max. sea state at which the snorkel could be used?


I have readed so many books and reports that it's difficult to remember the sources sometimes :88)

Must double check, but IIRC the reference to maximal snorkelling speed comes from Clay Blair's book, and the reference to periscopes from "US submarines through 1945" by Norman Friedman, App. II (Periscopes). Friedman comments the several proposals received by the US Navy from different makers of periscopes and problems encountered, and comments that german subs also had problems when speeding up due to periscope vibrations. In the case of fleet boats this would be even worser, as they had quicker underwater speeds.

[Volk2]

But when I chose TC=128x on my average PC, the routine cannot be executed 128 times per second, it is only executed about 100 times. the missing 28 calculations are cancelled, because otherwise program flow would be jammed. When I now rise TC to 1024, the routine can still be executed only 100 times per second, but it should be executed 1024 times. this discrepancy leads to very inaccurate, defective simulation results in some aspects.

Good to know, it's important news. But what aspects do we lose? From what you say the defect should be very big, but do we see any symptoms of it (eg. on 1024) besides the detection problems in game? Are the problems so serious?

[h.sie]

I can only talk accurately about the things I tried to fix: Repair times and CO2 production when submerged. These values become inaccurate on high TC compared to low TC. Not very serious.

Regarding the other aspects I have to speculate, because I didn't test it. But I suppose other aspects of the game could suffer much more from these cancelled calculations on high TC, e.g. detection of enemy. Sudden death on high TC without warning........weather changes.......spawning of enemy aircraft......???

This is speculation, not knowledge.

maybe I should have written: "this discrepancy can lead to inaccurate, defective simulation results in some aspects".

[LGN1]

So for my second version I’m programming a routine that checks the speed every 10 seconds when snorkelling. More exactly: There is already such a routine that makes calculations every 10 seconds, and I simply modify it. Every time a speed above 5knots is detected while snorkeling, a WM_KEYPRESS message for the key “2” will be generated, so that the executable thinks the user pressed “2” to order new speed 2/3 ahead. Optimistic that it will work.

Now I’m thinking about how to consider Wind speed / wave height. Possible values could be:

Wind speed 0-5m/s: Speed will be reduced to 2/3 ahead.
Wind speed 6-10m/s: Speed will be reduced to slow ahead.
Wind speed > 10m/s: Snorkelling not possible. Engines will be stopped by the watch routine.

Are these historically correct?

Hi h.sie,

the method sounds fine. You might also combine this method with a key command for turning off the hydrophone (or can you reduce the max. hydrophone range by a factor?)

The same method might also be a simple solution for the 'speed-limited' periscope (if bluring does not work).

Concerning torpedo re-loading: If possible you might think about changing the loading time depending on sea state. For instance, if the boat is surfaced and wind > x m/s, torpedos (both internal & external) cannot be loaded (i.e., loading time in sim files very high). However, submerged you can load the tubes. For the external tubes you might also think about taking night time into account (I guess there is a variable that determines night and day (controling at least the red light)).

Cheers, LGN1

[Philipp_Thomsen]

You mean 1/3 ahead. There's no such thing as 2/3.

Now I can understand why so much sh!t happens at high tc. Good info, h.sie. :up:

[h.sie]

In german they are called "kleine fahrt" and "langsame fahrt", and I thought they are called "ahead slow" and "2/3 ahead" in english.

[h.sie]

my batteries are empty. the todo-list is growing much faster than my progress is. so please no new ideas or wishes at the moment. snorkel fix is not easy since my idea doesn't work and I have only 2 hours for modding per day.

phew.

[Philipp_Thomsen]

In german they are called "kleine fahrt" and "langsame fahrt", and I thought they are called "ahead slow" and "2/3 ahead" in english.

That is weird... 2/3 = 66%.

And 2/3 speed is not even half the speed.

[Draka]

From here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_order_telegraph

"The following dial positions are more common on older ships:


AAIII -- "all-ahead flank," the fastest possible, often unsustainable due to mechanical constraints
AAII -- "all-ahead full," rapid cruising speed, sustainable over long distances
AAI -- "all-ahead standard," normal cruising speed, more energy-efficient than AAII
AA2/3 -- "ahead two-thirds," slow, used for hazards
AA1/3 -- "ahead a third," very slow, used for docking
Z -- "all stop," no motion
B1/3 -- "back a third," very slow reverse
B2/3 -- "back two-thirds," slow in reverse
BF -- "back full," fastest sustainable in reverse
BE -- "back emergency," maximum power in reverse, often unsustainable"

AA = All Ahead, B = Back

Just for grins:

"All Ahead Bendix - Traditionally, an engine order for "max tracks," i.e. as fast as she can go. The Engine Order Telegraph (q.v.) was traditionally made by the Bendix Company, and was so marked just past the forward end of the annunciator quadrant. Therefore, pushing the E.O.T. annunciator handles as far forward as they would go brought the pointer near the word "Bendix." Actual use of "All Ahead Bendix" tends to irritate the Chief Engineer."

[makman94]

my batteries are empty. the todo-list is growing much faster than my progress is. so please no new ideas or wishes at the moment. snorkel fix is not easy since my idea doesn't work and I have only 2 hours for modding per day.

phew.

hehehe.....the todo list .... has end ? :DL
only 2 hours per day ? have you think that there is the night ...too ?

i am joking H.Sie ,
when you give us the 'green' light again...i want to add an idea or wish at the todo-list

keep up the real good job :up:

[Yoriyn]

Thank you for the great mod. I 've been waithin so long for this!! :yeah:

[Philipp_Thomsen]

From here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_order_telegraph

"The following dial positions are more common on older ships:


AAIII -- "all-ahead flank," the fastest possible, often unsustainable due to mechanical constraints
AAII -- "all-ahead full," rapid cruising speed, sustainable over long distances
AAI -- "all-ahead standard," normal cruising speed, more energy-efficient than AAII
AA2/3 -- "ahead two-thirds," slow, used for hazards
AA1/3 -- "ahead a third," very slow, used for docking
Z -- "all stop," no motion
B1/3 -- "back a third," very slow reverse
B2/3 -- "back two-thirds," slow in reverse
BF -- "back full," fastest sustainable in reverse
BE -- "back emergency," maximum power in reverse, often unsustainable"

AA = All Ahead, B = Back

Just for grins:

"All Ahead Bendix - Traditionally, an engine order for "max tracks," i.e. as fast as she can go. The Engine Order Telegraph (q.v.) was traditionally made by the Bendix Company, and was so marked just past the forward end of the annunciator quadrant. Therefore, pushing the E.O.T. annunciator handles as far forward as they would go brought the pointer near the word "Bendix." Actual use of "All Ahead Bendix" tends to irritate the Chief Engineer."


I know what you're saying. So it's wrong on SH3 the line "All ahead 1/3" that is shown on the screen when you press "2".

What I find weird is that seems to be wrong, mathematically.

Suppose the ship max speed was 20 kts: All ahead 2/3 would give you around 7 kts, which is basically one-third of the max speed. Two-thirds would be 66%, or 14kts.

But anyway... who am I to argue with the navy?

[h.sie]

would it be historically correct to make the speed restriction when snorkelling dependent on wave height (=wind speed) ???

Example:

Wind speed 0-3 m/s : Max. Speed = 5kn
Wind speed 4-10m/s: Max. Speed sinks from 5kn (@4m/s) to 0kn (@10m/s)
Wind speed > 10m/s: Max. Speed = 0kn (snorkelling not possible).

??????????
?? h.sie ??
??????????



@LGN1: What did you mean regarding hydrophones?
Should I try to disable them when snorkelling (since diesels are on)??

[Yoriyn]

Ok I think, I found first bug in your mod.

WO respone is delayed not only for Nearest Contact, but for all his orders. So lets say you give order Man to the Flak, and you need wait few second before WO give that order to sailors. This is little annoying.

I think there is no longer point to delay WO response.

[h.sie]

I didn't delay WO response - only his accuracy for range estimations

[Yoriyn]

ups...:-?
So mayby I'm just tired, and slow now :)
Sorry, it's time to bed.

[LGN1]

would it be historically correct to make the speed restriction when snorkelling dependent on wave height (=wind speed) ???

Example:

Wind speed 0-3 m/s : Max. Speed = 5kn
Wind speed 4-10m/s: Max. Speed sinks from 5kn (@4m/s) to 0kn (@10m/s)
Wind speed > 10m/s: Max. Speed = 0kn (snorkelling not possible).

??????????
?? h.sie ??
??????????



@LGN1: What did you mean regarding hydrophones?
Should I try to disable them when snorkelling (since diesels are on)??

Hi h.sie,

sorry, I don't have any accurate data about the speed issue :-? I will look for it.

Yes, turning off the hydrophone would be great! According to what I read the hydrophones could not be used when snorkelling because of the diesels.

Cheers, LGN1

[Madox58]

What I find weird is that seems to be wrong, mathematically.

Suppose the ship max speed was 20 kts: All ahead 2/3 would give you around 7 kts, which is basically one-third of the max speed. Two-thirds would be 66%, or 14kts.

That might be a correct assumption IF the drag factor of the Sub was
100% as efficient at every speed.

But as you increase speed?
You increase the water flowing by and that increases the drag factor.
So 2/3 to Full Ahead should be less an increase then
1/3 to half.

[Philipp_Thomsen]

That might be a correct assumption IF the drag factor of the Sub was
100% as efficient at every speed.

But as you increase speed?
You increase the water flowing by and that increases the drag factor.
So 2/3 to Full Ahead should be less an increase then
1/3 to half.

Wakarimash!ta! ;)

(! = i, subsim filter ruining my japanese)

[Sailor Steve]

As Privateer said. One ship I do know the numbers for - the Iowa class battleships. With all eight boilers and full power they were rated for 32 knots. Using four boilers (half speed) they could still make 30 knots. There is an optimum speed for every vehicle, and once you've reached it adding more and more power has less and less effect. That's why a 3000-pound sedan making 200 horsepower can go 100 mph or more, and a 1200-pound Grand Prix car making 1000 horsepower can only go twice as fast.

Here is a great explanation of how it works:
http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-029.htm

And an explanation of why the 50-knot nuclear carrier is a myth:
http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-028.htm

[Philipp_Thomsen]

Well, thats just bullsh!t.

My uboat on sh3, after refitting, reaches 37 kts.

[h.sie]

good news: i was able to continuously trigger the blur effect for the periscope camera views. using this, i could simulate vibrations for speed above 4knots. doesn't really look like vibrations, but it makes peris almost useless for high speeds and surely is better than nothing.

If all works, V15D will contain:

- CO2 production/diving times considering repairs, silent hunting, crew size.
- speed reduction to 5 knots when snorkelling (currently without considering wind speed??)
- simulate periscopes vibrations for speed > 4knots

But that needs time.

[Sailor Steve]

My uboat on sh3, after refitting, reaches 37 kts.
I WANT ONE! Haven't been water-skiing in awhile. :D

[LGN1]

good news: i was able to continuously trigger the blur effect for the periscope camera views. using this, i could simulate vibrations for speed above 4knots. doesn't really look like vibrations, but it makes peris almost useless for high speeds and surely is better than nothing.

If all works, V15D will contain:

- CO2 production/diving times considering repairs, silent hunting, crew size.
- speed reduction to 5 knots when snorkelling (currently without considering wind speed??)
- simulate periscopes vibrations for speed > 4knots

But that needs time.

Great news, h.sie :up: Impressive work! Again, this will add a lot to realism!

Concerning snorkeling: I read that you could snorkel up to a sea state of 3-4. According to what I read, this corresponds to a wave height of 1.25 - 2.5 m. Maybe a max. windspeed between 8 and 10 m/s for snorkeling would be fine in game :06:

So, wind speed =< 10 m/s: snorkeling possible at 5 kn (no max. speed changes below wind speed 10m/s)
Wind speed > than 10 m/s: no snorkeling possible.

Cheers, LGN1

[Philipp_Thomsen]

The snorkelling speed in my opinion depends on the depth of the sub.

I think snorkelling on heavier waters would be possible by decreasing the depth of the submarine. Lets say 10 meters, just enough to cover the conning tower.

That would also allow higher uboat speeds, due to the less water pressure on the snorkel mast.

[h.sie]

@LGN1: Thanks again for doing some research. I'll see what I can do.

@PT: I think you are right, the higher the end of the snorkel, the better it can suck in the air, even in higher waves. but the geometries of the 4 boat types and their snorkels differ and it would take a huge amount of effort to consider that point in an exact way. The required assembler code would grow and grow and I would lose overview. So I must admit that I can only do simple fixes, which hopefully anyhow give a better approximation of the reality than stock sh3.exe does.

[ryanwigginton]

"- simulate periscopes vibrations for speed > 4knots" :o Awesome!

[slipper]

Hi all,

I have been following this post with interest but i can not install the V15C patch to try it. I have searched through the posts, but must admit i find it all a bit confusing.

I installed the original game with SH3.exe file version 1.0.0.1. but according to the install instructions on the first page of this discussion, i need file version 1.0.4.1.

i cannot install the patch as i get the wrong checksum, so my question is how do i proceed? does that mean there is no way for me to run this patch with a legal copy of the game? is there any workaround i can do to make the patcher work with file version 1.0.0.1?

Thanks for any replies and help.

regards

a very confused slipper

[ryanwigginton]

Try installing this patch first...
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2881085392/m/7261080164

Hope this helps!

[slipper]

Thanks for reply

but on first page of discussion it say's to try on an unpatched game? Is this not correct?

regards

slipper

[Philipp_Thomsen]

Thanks for reply

but on first page of discussion it say's to try on an unpatched game? Is this not correct?

regards

slipper

You're supposed to have/buy the starforce-free version of the game already patched to 1.4b.

[slipper]

Thanks again for reply. I don't have that version. There is nothing i can do other than rebuy the game then?

regards

slipper

[Sailor Steve]

Even the newest version is quite cheap now, and it has none of the problems associated with the earliest release. It's worth the little that it costs.

[slipper]

Ok Thanks all,

Regards

slipper

[h.sie]

"- simulate periscopes vibrations for speed > 4knots" :o Awesome!

Don't expect too much. The blur-effect does not look like vibrations, it looks like a water film on the scope which is renewed every second. but the effect is the same: peri is nearly useless. additionally, I can only switch the blur-effect ON or OFF, no fading is possible, so that at 4 knots you can see through the scope, but at 5 knots you'll see all blurred. by the way: it's in early alpha state and there is still a little chance that it won't work as desired......some problems still have to be solved.

[h.sie]

Blur effect to simulate vibrations for periscopes when speed is above 4kt does not work (WinXP is okay, but Win7 not - so it's surely a memory problem related to the pointers I had to reengineer). After 2 weeks I give up. I'll try the second best solution now: Automatically move down and block periscopes under these speed conditions, so that peris cannot be used. Shlt.

[Volk2]

Blur effect to simulate vibrations for periscopes when speed is above 4kt does not work (WinXP is okay, but Win7 not - so it's surely a memory problem related to the pointers I had to reengineer). After 2 weeks I give up. I'll try the second best solution now: Automatically move down and block periscopes under these speed conditions, so that peris cannot be used. Shlt.

I admire your patience. Especially taking into account sh3 loading times... It must be an horror.

[h.sie]

it's not patience - it's compulsivity (psych.)
:yep:

[h.sie]

This was a quick shot. Moving down periscopes when submerged speed is above a certain speed already works. Now I need to know a realistic value for max. speed.

(I'll choose 5.0 knots if noone finds better values)

[Myxale]

Just an Idea that popped into my head while you were working on the Peri-Vibrations.

The effect that plays when the player is on the bridge and when a shell hits (that blur like thing) would be a better option for the vibration look.

I don't know who feasible it is to implement!!

[h.sie]

@Myxale: I already tried that idea. Try the Bismarck Single mission, surface and and look through the periscopes while the enemy is shredding your Uboat. No vibrations when looking through the periscopes. So I see no way to realise that.

[h.sie]

Just in that moment I gave up, I did find a way to use blur effect to simulate vibrations.

so in V15D periscopes will behave as follows:

1) for submerged speed > 4,5 knots blur effects simulates vibrations
2) for submerged speed > 7,0 knots periscopes are moved down.

already works. yeah. blur makes peris almost useless, but it doesn't really look like vibrations. but better than nothing.

[CherryHarbey]

and it works with win7??
if so great work.

[h.sie]

not tested yet, but I'm optimistic that it will work under Win7

[Tolkemec]

Fantasitc work, h.sie. Congrats!!!!

It really amazes me the comitment you modding people have with this game, wich YOU made so enjoyable.

The care and love for this game really shows in your work, it seems to me you are really giving a lesson to the developpers.

I recently discovered your thread, so I have tried to catch up.

Anyway, as you were some time in the past asking for suggestions, could it be possible (and interesting), to made the morale variable? I mean, those long unsuccesful patrols, those hours beneath the waves dodging DC attacks, would certainly affect the overall morale of the crew (it does affect mine), which by the way would affect how efficient they would be.

Maybe you could tied it to time spend on patrol, or linked to (or busted up by) tonnage sunk...

So I don't know if that's doable, or if you people would agree, or if you have the time for such a matter, but it really bugged me the morale in this game being fixed (or it is not and I am completely wrong - which could be by the way-?).

Anyway, congrats again, looking forward to finishing my patrol to implement your patch!

Thx!



Do you think that's interesting?

[Silent Ace]

[QUOTE]Little fixes like rising repair times, or (as LGN1 wanted), manipulating the dive time and CO2 level, are possible. Or maybe the "WO stays in bed when surfaced" bug can maybe be fixed. We'll see.33 survived submariners with USS Squalus (SS-192) had the air for the next 48 hours the consumption of 12 m3 air per day per man.
Total volume of air in the USS Skualus was reduced by three sunken section (after torpedo room, E engine room, diesel engine room).

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/9210/wdr5817p198.jpg

[Yoriyn]

It is possible to change something to set weather changing period to 12h, instead 24h from last game load?

[h.sie]

Sorry to say, but since I play with no-fatigue, this problem will be low-priority for me.
but I added it to the loooooong to-do-list.

weather changing intervals can be adjusted in scene.dat

[Yoriyn]

I check scene.dat but can't find the place where to change weather intervals. Can you point me this section?

[h.sie]

RealWeatherFix2 from Stiebler and <????> does the following changes based upon intensive research (I recommend not to change them).

scene.dat:
----------
EnvSim / Wind / WindHeadingChangeSpeed = 0.01
EnvSim / Wind / WindSpeedChangeSpeed = 0,0015
Rain / Random Wind / ChangeTimeMin = 2.0
Rain / Random Wind / ChangeTimeMax = 5.0
Rain / Random Wind / RandomWindSpeedMax = 0,005
Rain / Random Wind / RandomWindSpeedVariationSpeed = 0,007
Rain / Random Wind / RandomWindHeadingVariationSpeed = 0,007
Rain / RainIntensityChangeSpeed = 0,017


campaign_LND.mis / campaign_RND.mis / campaign_SCR.mis
------------------------------------------------------
Fog=0
FogRand=0
Clouds=0
CloudsRand=0
Precip=0
PrecipRand=0
WindRand=0
WeatherRndInterval=5

[Hitman]

The constant stormy weather is one of SH3 biggest issues, so I guess this is a much needed fix and someting you could well dedicate some time to. This project started as a fix for bugs, after all :DL

[h.sie]

Aye sir, constant stormy weather added to the todo list.

but weather is hard. currently just want to read out wind speed for wind dependent snorkel speed restriction, but this internal variable is very hard to address via a pointer.....I'll see what I can do.

by the way Hitman: I'm not able to equip an IIA and IID with a snorkel. Is that okay?

[Yoriyn]

Ok i made some resarch in game. Whatever I change in pointed files, weather interval in campaign stays the same., about 33-34h, then weather change. I think this interval (bug) must be hardcoded. Changing interval can speed-up a change weather process and stormy weather will be much shorter.

This means if the stormy weather just start, you need to wait 34h and be full of hope to wind slow-down, if not another 34h of storm is coming, and again, again...

[h.sie]

@Yoriyn: I added constant stormy weather on the todo list.

[Yoriyn]

You great h.sie !!! Thank you. Let me know if you find where to change this.

[h.sie]

According to an idea of LGN1 I now try to disable hydrophones when diesels are running (surfaced & snorkelling). Is there something I should consider by doing this?

[Tolkemec]

I have another brilliant idea that you can perfectly ignore :O:

When depth charged really close, a submarine could be pushed down (if the DC exploded above the sub), or pushed up (if the DC exploded just below), resurfacing on ocasions if he was close to the surface.

Could that be adressed?

[h.sie]

Hi Tolcemec,

I didn't ignore you. I added your first idea to my (very long) todo list, but since my personal interest in modding this special issue is not so large, there will be tons of things that have to be done first. But thank you for your kind words.

Regarding your new idea: The problem is that I even do not know where to start modding this. It's a complex situation and interaction between events. I am pessimic. Another problem is, that waterbomb explosions are very short events, too short to be found / catched with the debugger. I can only fix continuously present processes like repairs, snorkel speed, CO2 production and so on. They are always present, so I have a chance to find/locate then with the debugger.

Without SDK and equipped only with a debugger, I can only do small fixes. Sorry, sorry. Maybe later with more experiance.

h.sie

[Tolkemec]

Noooo! I just ment you could ignore this second idea, not that you ignored my first one! I think you are doing a brilliant work, so I just keep sending ideas that can be put aside np! :)
Thx!

[Hitman]

by the way Hitman: I'm not able to equip an IIA and IID with a snorkel. Is that okay?

I have never seen a documented reference to a Type II being equipped with that. Only operational Type IIs by 1944 were school boats and may be those in the Black Sea Flotilla (Not sure).

I doubt much that such a small sub could be retrofitted with a snorkel, but you never know....

[Silent Ace]

And the idea of the possibility that the crew leave the submarine submerged in territorial shallow waters using Momsen lung and the continuation of the campaign with a new crew whose core consisted of survivors from the sunken submarine.

[h.sie]

And the idea of the possibility that the crew leave the submarine submerged in territorial shallow waters using Momsen lung and the continuation of the campaign with a new crew whose core consisted of survivors from the sunken submarine.

this can surely be made with 3 or 4 lines of assembler.

[Silent Ace]

this can surely be made with 3 or 4 lines of assembler.

It would be awesome.

Above should prevent the game stops when any section of the submarine filled with water and add a button in the GUI for ordering escape from a submarine.

[SkyBaron]

this can surely be made with 3 or 4 lines of assembler.

:har:


How about this, after a successful patrol, say 100,000 tons, a 3d model of Karl Dönitz comes to the sub pens to meet you in person and shake your hand, if you scored more than 200,000 tons the Führer himself shows up to congratulate you! I think a few MOVs and PUSHs and one XOR will do the trick. :haha:

[h.sie]

I'll neither shake Karls nor Adolfs hand.

[ryanwigginton]

this can surely be made with 3 or 4 lines of assembler.

:o:haha::wah::har: That was a low punch h.sie, but it made me laugh.

You know, you should stick to good solid fixes. Your patch is 100% so far. Don't pollute it with trivial and uncertain things. Just things that are correct and real. I would suggest, if you don't have the data or are unsure, leave it out. The repair times, WO inaccuracy and CO2 are perfect works, and left at that alone, the sim has new life.

[h.sie]

Currently trying to automatically switch off the hydrophones (including hydrophone contact reports) when snorkelling and/or diesels are on. but unfortunately the active sonar then is switched off, too. but I think that doesn't matter since sonar without hydrophones is useless because you need hydrophones to aim/focus for a target whose distance has to be measured. are my thoughts correct?

[Hitman]

but unfortunately the active sonar then is switched off, too

But you mean hydrophone from the sub or from all other units?

If it's the sub then I don't see the problem. Only the Type XXI had that active sonar and its use was during an attack, to get a good range reading (< 4-5000 metres or so). I doubt very much that they would be snorkeling so close to a target.

[h.sie]

it's of course the sonar of the sub! :)

Thanks for help!

But a good idea to also disable the sonar of the enemy, that could make kaleun's life easier.....and would increase tonnage.

[h.sie]

V15D_beta is available.

I call it beta because many code changes have been made in the last weeks and although I tested intensively, I cannot guarrantee that there is no bug. And maybe some fine-adjusting has to be done.

New in V15D:

1) C02-production / diving times


Diving times of Uboats enlarged (especially for XXI) to fit historical data.
Crew number affects CO2 production.
Silent Running reduces CO2 production.
Repairs boost CO2 production.

2) Speed restriction when snorkelling (wind speed dependent)


Wind speed = 0...5m/s: Uboat speed restricted to "1/3"
Wind speed = 6...10m/s: Uboat speed restricted to "slow".
Wind speed = 11...15ms/s: Uboat stopped. Snorkelling impossible.

(Speed restriction starts 20 seconds after beginning of snorkelling. This was necessary to prevent that speed restriction handicaps crash dive).


3) Restricted Periscope usage for higher speeds


For speed > 4,5kts Blur effect simulates vibrations. Periscopes nearly useless. (Not the ultimate solution, but the best I could do).
For speed > 7kts periscopes are moved down automatically.

4) Hydrophones useless when diesels are working


When snorkelling, you must stop diesels in order to use hydrophones. Otherwise you'll hear nothing.
No sound contact reports when diesels are working


Installation:



As described in the 1st post.



But: The patch kit contains a patched CameraBehavior.act which is needed for the blur effect. Move original file to a different directory and use the patched one instead. Renaming of the original file is not enough.


h.sie

[LGN1]

Amazing work, h.sie! :o

Thanks a lot! I am deeply impressed!

Cheers, LGN1

[Myxale]

What he said, what he said!:rock:

[reaper7]

Thank you h.sie, outstanding work :|\\.

[Yoriyn]

After few tests, I can say: You doing incredible job!!!

[Dani]

Great work!:up:
And if I may add one more idea to your long to do list, much more unreliable torpedos.(if anything can be done at all in that matter)


Best regards

[Philipp_Thomsen]

So if I have the maximum allowed crew members and they're doing repairs for hours, how long I have before running out of air, around how many hours?

Is it historically accurate?

Great job H.sie! :up:

[h.sie]

Thanks, guys. Hope you like it. I don't know if I should like the blur effect or not, but I didn't find a better solution.

@PT: As you can see in post #214, LGN1 did some research regarding historical data. For the VII e.g. he found:

* In game diving time: 36h.
* Historical data: 72h with 37 men.

So I fixed the CO2 production so that 72h diving time can be reached with 37 men in silent running. But if repairs are made during the whole time, diving times are only 36h. In normal mode (no repairs, no silent running), a value inbetween can be reached: about 54h.

With 45 men, CO2 production is multiplied with 45/37 = 1,21. Diving times are reduced accordingly.

So we have a factor of 2,0 between silent running (rest) and repairs (hard work). This seems a little bit high on a first glimpse, because normally there is a factor of about 1,4....1,5 between rest and hard work (see my discussion with Hitman somewhere in this thread), but since I didn't find a way to take into account events like

* the work for torpedo reloading
* the tension when hunting
* the fear when being hunted

I gave repairs a factor 2,0 penalty instead of 1,5 in order to indirectly consider these 3 events, because repairs are correlated tightly to them.

Surely not 100% accurate, I know, but much better than considering nothing as in stock sh3.exe, where you alway have the same diving time. And even this approximation took 50 lines of assembler code. We have to live with compromises here, because I may not loose overview....

h.sie

[Hitman]

Surely not 100% accurate, I know, but much better than considering nothing as in stock sh3.exe, where you alway have the same diving time. And even this approximation took 50 lines of assembler code. We have to live with compromises here, because I may not loose overview....

It's an excellent result and compromise, your doing a great job :up:

[h.sie]

@Dani: Thanks for that idea (more dud torpedoes).

Does anyone know, if that can be done by editing .sim files or similar or using SH3-Commanders random features??

If not: I need some historical data.


Next points on the todo list (but at first I need some time now for calm down and get new energy):

* external torpedo reload problem
* weather changes
* rise detection probability when repairs are made
* (dud torpedoes?)

h.sie

[Hitman]

@Dani: Thanks for that idea (more dud torpedoes).

Does anyone know, if that can be done by editing .sim files or similar or using SH3-Commanders random features??

Yes it can, IIRC NYGM already tweaked the magnetic pistol to increase dud rates, and disabled the impact one (Though via menu).

[Silent Ace]

h.sie please see the following documentary films, I think it would be helpful:
Us Squalus-http://www.guba.com/watch/3000085951
HMS Thetis-http://www.factualtv.com/documentary/Disasters-of-the-century-HMS-Thetis

[LGN1]

Hi all,

there is a long discussion about the torpedo problems in the old NYGM manuals NYGM_Tonnage_War_Manual 2_0.pdf and NYGM_Tonnage_War_Manual 2.2a.pdf. Basically, the NYGM team forces the player to use the magnetic pistol because it has a higher chance of exploding prematurely (but still much too low according to the NYGM team). In addition, it's possible to randomize the running depth of the torpedo via SH3 Commander in a way that the player will not see it.

However, the problem is that if you know about the depth keeping issue, it's quite easy to avoid it (as in real life). And since it's hard to erase this knowledge now... In SH3 you can get a dud rate very close to zero by just using the impact pistol and 90° AOB shots. With magnetic pistol I guess you can get a slightly higher rate but not much (if you use them like impact torpedoes).

So, in SH3 torpedoes more or less work perfectly with the right settings even when using the SH3 Commander depth-keeping issue mod and magnetic pistols. However, I don't know how unrealistic this is :-? The problem is that we know about the issues now and it's not easy to simulate the 'not knowing'.
If someone has any hard facts about the reliability of the impact pistol (apart from the depth keeping issue), I would love to know it. I have been wondering about this already quite some time.

Cheers, LGN1

[LGN1]

Hi h.sie,



...
* rise detection probability when repairs are made
...

h.sie

I think this is the most important issue because it cannot be addressed via other means!

Anyway, take a break, recharge your batteries, and enjoy your work! Already now you have improved SH3 more than I ever thought it would happen after all the years!

Cheers, LGN1

[Jimbuna]

@Dani: Thanks for that idea (more dud torpedoes).

Does anyone know, if that can be done by editing .sim files or similar or using SH3-Commanders random features??

If not: I need some historical data.


Next points on the todo list (but at first I need some time now for calm down and get new energy):

* external torpedo reload problem
* weather changes
* rise detection probability when repairs are made
* (dud torpedoes?)

h.sie

Your progressing well H....keep up the good work http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[h.sie]

Hi Jim,

nice to read some lines from you!

Where have the Kaleun Bechers gone?
Hope they were a good present!

H.

[panzerschutze12ss]

I have not been able to get V15D-Beta to work for me. I dont no what is wrong because I have V15C working perfectly.

I took a copy of my SH3.exe from my clean install of SHIII and patched it using the Patch_SH3.batch file. It verifiyed that it was the proper vertion and then patched it creating an old file. I then applied the 4GB patch to it. I tried running an unmoded (that is apsolutly no MOD's at all not even GWX) install of SH3. I created a carrer and started my first mission but get a CTD right after it finishes loading. Oh and I did replace the the camera file also.

So what went wrong. Maybe it is the 4GB patch. I set everything back to stock and make sure it is in working order. All good. I redo my steps as before minus the 4GB patch, but get the same CTD at same point.

I reset back to stock. All works and install my V15C ver. and it works fine.

So am i doing something wrong or what?

[h.sie]

Hi panzerschuetze,

let us first prevent from errors that come from loading old career and configuration files. So please (backup and) delete or rename your SH3 folder which can be found in your personal folder "Eigene Dateien" in german. Then try again.

If you still get this error, I need the information (see under -> details) you get from the error window "sh3.exe has to be closed" or similar that appears when sh3.exe crashes. Using this information, I can see if the error is related to my routines or not, and if so, I can even locate the command that leads to the crash.

And please also tell me what Windows version do you use!

Any others having these problems?

[SquareSteelBar]

Hi panzerschütze,

it's recommended to deactivate anti virus software like AV guards etc. before patching sh3.exe.

Give it a try.

Cheers,
SquareSteelBar

[makman94]

Hi panzerschuetze,

let us first prevent from errors that come from loading old career and configuration files. So please (backup and) delete or rename your SH3 folder which can be found in your personal folder "Eigene Dateien" in german. Then try again.

If you still get this error, I need the information (see under -> details) you get from the error window "sh3.exe has to be closed" or similar that appears when sh3.exe crashes. Using this information, I can see if the error is related to my routines or not, and if so, I can even locate the command that leads to the crash.

And please also tell me what Windows version do you use!

Any others having these problems?

same problem here H.Sie !

it is not the camerabehaviour.act responsible (i tried it also with the stock file and still crashed)
i tested it in the naval academy missions ....and ,as described, it crashes one moment before the game entering (after the ''initializing'' message)
the .exe was correctly patched (the 1,5d was showing at the bottom edge of screen)
i am using windows 7 x64 ultimate (can't see the error message that you want...it is just saying error and that programme is shutted down)

thank you for all this effort H.Sie :up:

[h.sie]

I have to re-activate my Win7 x64 and see what happens there!

So people with problems should stick on V15C until I found a solution.

Thanks, makman, for resonance.

[h.sie]

I need some resonance now from people using V15D-beta in order to locate that problem.

1) Does the game crash while loading?

2) Which operatiing system do you have?

3) 32 or 64 Bit?

Thanks for helping.

I already have a suspicion: I used a GetTime() system-call to Windows USER32.dll in order to realise a 20 seconds time delay. Maybe the addresses have changed for newer Win versions or 64 bit versions.....or it's a permission problem.

[panzerschutze12ss]

I am running VISTA x64 and also can't give you the error message for why the program has failed and has to be closed. I did patch the .exe file with AV softwhare closed. Actually I uninstalled it. I tried deleting my SH3 folder (after backing it up) to eliminate that posability. But still no luck. SH3 loads up to main menu fine. When I try to start a new carrer or any single mission. Game will load all the way to the ''initializing'' message and CTD's at that point.

THANKS H.Sie for all your efforts. You are opening new and great possibilities for SH3. I hope this helps you. I'm no wiz at moding but if I can help you testing anything let me know.

[Yoriyn]

Maybe there is any incompatibility with other mods? I think tests should be done on stock game.

My game workings fine in this moment.

[h.sie]

I've already taken V15D_beta from my mediafire page. There is a problem with an system-call which I can reproduce on my job's PC with Win7/x64. On my home PC (XP/32bit) all works fine. So I have to eliminate this error. Sorry guys for that discomfort. And thanks for help and offering help.

h.sie

[Yoriyn]

Is that mean XP/32-bit users can play with no problems, and the problem only affect people with Win7/64-bit? Cos I don't have any problems, yet.

Opeks1: You little out of topic I think :)

[h.sie]

There have been reported 2 problems which I both can only reproduce on my job's PC with Win7/64 Bit.

1) CTD while loading.

2) After having eliminated error 1: Crew featigues very fast when snorkelling.

On my home system (XP/32 Bit) where I tested the patch, I cannot reproduce these probs. So if you also cannot reproduce these errors, where is the problem?

These system-dependent and unforseen side-effects let me hesitate to further on sharing my mods, because I cannot test them on all available operating system configurations. And I don't want to be responsible for crashes and so on. And I even cannot guarrantee that there will be no more side-effects.....I'll see what the future will bring......

h.sie

EDIT: Now I can reproduce the fast fatiguing crew when snorkelling. I couldn't see that error until now, because I had no-fatigue settings activated without knowing that. So don't use V15D_beta.

[Jimbuna]

Hi Jim,

nice to read some lines from you!

Where have the Kaleun Bechers gone?
Hope they were a good present!

H.

Hi Matey....still got em (never made it to the Meet) but hope to sort it out soon http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/853/shhhhhob3oa7.gif (http://img707.imageshack.us/i/shhhhhob3oa7.gif/)

[h.sie]

Oh, no!:oops:

[h.sie]

Yorilyn, I recommend to stick on V15C until I fixed that bug

[Hartmann]

There have been reported 2 problems which I both can only reproduce on my job's PC with Win7/64 Bit.

1) CTD while loading.

2) After having eliminated error 1: Crew featigues very fast when snorkelling.



Well , in reality snorkels created several problems in u-boats.

Noise, Moisture inside the boat and skin diseases after weeks underwater , partial vacuums ,which was extremely painful to the ears of the crew. Useless AA guns after a lot of time underwater...

but realism depend of the fatigue rate.

[panzerschutze12ss]

This is totally true from what I have read also. The question is how much the crew fatigues now with snorkeling?

How fast is very fast H.Sie?

If it is really excessive maybe it could be adjusted by editing the fatigue model instead of making adjustments in your MOD H.Sie and implement through SH3 Commander? Just thinking out load about this. I have never messed with it myself and have just used different ones that have been posted on this forum. But I am willing to start.

[h.sie]

with "very fast" I meant "immediately". but you see that effect only if you don't use the no-fatigue model. immediately after beginning of snorkelling, crew gets these red exclamation marks (!) which means they are fatigued.

I didn't want to program that, so I guess I made a mistake. And during my tests, I unfortunately had no-fatigue model activated (without even knowing that, maybe I forgot to roll back SH3-Commander in the past) so I couldn't see that unwanted side-effect. I'll look at that in the next days.....

Yes, from what I've read, snorkelling strongly influenced fatigue, but as the last 2 days have shown, I have to restrict on the most important issues in order to keep overview.

[Stoli151]

I am assuming that the steam version is not starforce free since i got the wrong checksum even though i have the right version or did i do something wrong?

[Yoriyn]

Stoli151: You must be right.

H.sie: I hope you didn't abandom this project yet:) Still waithing for new v15d version, and still using not supported one, with no problems ;)

[h.sie]

no, it's not abadoned, currently programming the new version hopefully without errors. h.sie

[Magic1111]

Hello h.sie !

I´ve a wish to you: Is it possible, that you please update your first Post in this Thread and explain at the "Version Overview", what the Version "V15C" fixed ?! At the Moment you explain only "V15A and B" !

I was a longer Time away from this Thread and I don´t remeber, what the Version V15C does !

Thank you very much in forward !!!

Best regards,
Magic:salute:

[Yoriyn]

- Longer repair times (x60)
and
Before this mod: "Range: 8932m, Herr Kaleun".
Now: "Range: 9000m, Herr Kaleun".

The range estimations now are displayed (and of course internally used for firing solution) in certain range-steps, which become larger (more inaccurate) for larger ranges. In detail:

Range 0000-1000m: Steps: 50m (Weapon Officer) 100m (Watch Officer)
Range 1000-2000m: Steps: 100m
Range 2000-4000m: Steps: 200m
Range 4000-9000m: Steps: 500m
Range 9000-12000m: Steps: 1000m
Range > 12000m: Steps: 2000m

The maximum possible error of the range estimation is Step/2. E.g. for ranges between 2000m and 4000m the step size is 200m, so that the estimation error is max. 100m.

Hope this help

[h.sie]

V15C adds little improvement to CO2 calculation. I didn't mention it in the first post, because it's obsoleted by the V15D which is in work. currently very very little time. sorry.

[Yoriyn]

Ok i notice small problem in V15D. When underwater traveling above 4kts not only your periscop is usless but the external (on F12 button) camera also.

[h.sie]

thanks yoriyn,

but unfortunately (fortunately?) i cannot reproduce your error. for me f12 external cam looks good when peris have blur-effect. wait for new version maybe this weekend. h.sie

[Magic1111]

- Longer repair times (x60)
and
Before this mod: "Range: 8932m, Herr Kaleun".
Now: "Range: 9000m, Herr Kaleun".

The range estimations now are displayed (and of course internally used for firing solution) in certain range-steps, which become larger (more inaccurate) for larger ranges. In detail:

Range 0000-1000m: Steps: 50m (Weapon Officer) 100m (Watch Officer)
Range 1000-2000m: Steps: 100m
Range 2000-4000m: Steps: 200m
Range 4000-9000m: Steps: 500m
Range 9000-12000m: Steps: 1000m
Range > 12000m: Steps: 2000m

The maximum possible error of the range estimation is Step/2. E.g. for ranges between 2000m and 4000m the step size is 200m, so that the estimation error is max. 100m.

Hope this help

V15C adds little improvement to CO2 calculation. I didn't mention it in the first post, because it's obsoleted by the V15D which is in work. currently very very little time. sorry.

@ Yoriyn and h.sie: Thanks for Reply !!! :salute:

[Yoriyn]

I have another "to do" on your list, if you don't mind :hmmm:.

- Can you restrict reloading external torpedos to state of the sea, motion etc? Maybe you can use a gun and AA-guns restrictions to do that.
- Reloading internal torpedos only underwater, not in combat and above 20m.

I now your list is long now, but I hope you consider this.