Realism- and gameplay-related hardcode fixes for SH3.EXE

[h.sie]

Wasn't there an old sh3 bug in the TDC dials for AOB and target direction? I don't remember exactly...

[Anvart]

...
It still suffered from the AI seeing it as surfaced all the time.
So every Ship in range fired at it as if it was surfaced.
But it did get depth charged on a regular basis!
... nothing strange because, in spite of all Eye-candy's tricks, Unit's state remains "Is Surfaced"... and fake-AISub of Sergei Butorin has the same problem, visually fake-AISub is submerged, in fact UBoatState (correctly ShipState) IsSurfaced...
... and if sergbuto's fake-AISub will be submerged to a depth greater than the parameter unit_Submarine --> unit_Ship --> obj_Hydro --> Surfaced --> draught = 12 m and --> Submerged --> draught = 13 m... submarine will be passive as a floating object... i think. :D

[complutum]

Firts of all thank you for your great job.

I have 2 questions:

1 is inside your v15g version the pseudo-dock in u tankers?

2 will your fix work with LSH?

Thanks again for your job

[Stiebler]

@LGN1:
sorry, but I'm not convinced by your argument (which is only the Standing order in the Bay of Biscay). Do you have any source that clearly states that U-Boats only surfaced once a day for several days? I think the logical question is sufficient: Why would BdU give orders for U-boats to remain submerged at all times (except to charge batteries), if the U-boats could not achieve this result?

For example:
(BdU War Diary, 3 September 1943, concerning the U-boats of the Leuthen wolf-pack sailing out from French bases)
"[U-boats] are to surface solely at night and only when the batteries need recharging."

@Wolfstriked/Wreford-Brown:
Concerning effect of fog on a U-boat's need to remain submerged.

The threat is not from aircraft. The threat is from radar-fitted destroyers, especially if your radar-warning receiver does not exist or is obsolete.

Stiebler.

[Wolfstriked]

Copy that Stiebler,so when fog is present the DD's have advantage if radar warning is obsolete.How large is the advantage though?Does it allos a good amount of time if they see a radar spot them to dive or does obsolete mean it doesn't pick up advanced radar at all.Just asking becuase I like to learn this stuff.

Ok,I think I know what they did.No its not stated in any BDU accounts but tell me if you think this is not what happened.If the time it takes to refill the renewable oxygen supply you guys have simulated is correct then its takes no more than a few minutes of surface(even decks awash) running to refill this and back to submerged for a few hours.I also believe it only takes a few minutes to fill a sub.

Also,you guys forget that the silent running effect of only utilizing %70 percent also applies to the renewable oxygen supply so effectively adding another %30 percent to this oxygen.

EDIT....if possible could you set the 70% usage as standard and have 100% usage be only when doing repairs?

[urfisch]

found nothing so far. uboats still not active >2-3km :( no diving, etc...

quite disappointing. i guess, by just changing the definitions and apply different patterns of ai to this unit, we do not reach our aim. there must be something which controls the units and its ai scripts and does not accept the uboat as a new unit, with full controls. the behavior of the unit seems limited by something.

i would suggest, we create a new ai uboat by cloning a destroyers unit, giving it another 3d modell and additional behavior. and there must also be the ability to let the boat dive. cause, giving the command in your boat to let it dive is nothing else, than triggering the command "dive" to the game. and the code lets the boat dive. so there must be the chance, to let the units dive. no matter, which one. theoretically a merchant also could be forced to dive....without destroying it ;)

or we dig through the codes, which are responsable for the ai units and search for the "mastercontroller" of these units.

what do you think?

[h.sie]

@urfish: Thanks for trying. Fortunately, we (or more exacty: SquareSteelBar) were able to enlarge the operation radius of the sub to about 8km. But it is not 100% sure if it works as intended. I'm a little bit unsure if I should have informed you earlier about that, but I didn't know who is currently working and who not, and nothing is sure so far.

[Madox58]

And that means a lot coming from you. Thank you Anvart!

I'll second what Anvart and Ducimus posted and add another thought.
If S3D is such a waste?
Why is he now releaseing an SDL editor he wrote?
Doesn't that make all his statements against S3D kind of self-serving?
:hmmm:

[Anvart]

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/3063/offtopicly.gif
I'll second what Anvart and Ducimus posted and add another thought.
If S3D is such a waste?
Why is he now releaseing an SDL editor he wrote?
Doesn't that make all his statements against S3D kind of self-serving?

... and... If you carefully read his posts on SH5 forum, can say with certainty that he is actively using S3D in their work... :haha:

[h.sie]

Wolfpacks - what has been done so far:

SqareSteelBar managed to enlarge the operation radius (fire range) of the Sergbutos AI-Subs from 2-3km to 7-8km. In my tests, they now shoot over long ranges, before they are detected by the escorts. This will reduce the amount of Subs required to intercept a convoy. They are mainly needed to deviate the escorts, so that the player maybe finds an opportunity to attack.

LGN1 wrote the pseudo-code for a very basic AI of the BDU.

h.sie now can access via Assembler code the current position of the player sub as well as the values of the TDC dials which can be used for a contact report to tell the BDU about the couse and the speed of the convoy.

Still not very optimistic that we will have wolfpacks soon, but little progress we made.

[Anvart]

Hy, guys, masters of R/E.
What can you say about Immunity Debugger 1.83 (like OllyDbg, but on python)? With the rapid examination of the program I liked...

[urfisch]

anyone discovered, what script is used to let the boats dive? i mean the general prcedure of a diving unit ingame...

[h.sie]

@Anvart: I have never heard about Immunity Debugger!

@urfisch: AFAIK in sh3 there are no AI scripts as in sh5, all AI behaviour is hardcoded. If there were scripts, these could easily be understood and modified.

[Anvart]

@Anvart: I have never heard about Immunity Debugger!
...
http://www.immunityinc.com/products-immdbg.shtml

simple registering... and enjoy.

[Hitman]

... nothing strange because, in spite of all Eye-candy's tricks, Unit's state remains "Is Surfaced"... and fake-AISub of Sergei Butorin has the same problem, visually fake-AISub is submerged, in fact UBoatState (correctly ShipState) IsSurfaced...
... and if sergbuto's fake-AISub will be submerged to a depth greater than the parameter unit_Submarine --> unit_Ship --> obj_Hydro --> Surfaced --> draught = 12 m and --> Submerged --> draught = 13 m... submarine will be passive as a floating object... i think. :D

Again I'd like to stress on studying what is different in multiplayer and trying to make the AI believe that the AI uboat is in fact a human uboat :hmmm:

We need both the uboat to behave like a uboat -which is more or less possible-but mainly the AI to treat it as such.

[Anvart]

Again I'd like to stress on studying what is different in multiplayer and trying to make the AI believe that the AI uboat is in fact a human uboat :hmmm:

We need both the uboat to behave like a uboat -which is more or less possible-but mainly the AI to treat it as such.
For understanding... it's playable UBoat - part of the actions (commands) on certain states and events must make the player.
For this part AI code is absent...

[h.sie]

@Hitman: I totally agree with you, but until now I had no idea where to start to realise that approach. the behaviour of the escorts on different types of enemy is somewehere coded in the AI, but I really have no idea so far how to reengineer that. I don't even know exactly where the AI is coded. Thus, I tend to stick on the most simple solution, but if during my/our work here we get new kowledge and facts, we can enhance the behaviour of the subs.

@Anvart: Thanks for the link.

[Hitman]

I was thinking that most AI sensors can't actually detect anything under zero (water level) as defined in the sensors file, f.e. visual or radar sensor can't see objects in negative values, etc, whereas hydrophones and ASDIC actually do the opposite, i.e. they can't detect anything that is completely out of the water (Like an airplane).

We also know positively that the AI only uses one sensor at a time, the one which has the best contact with the object, so tricking the AI into believing it is pursuing a submarine could be done with that, something like restricting the classes it can identify.

[h.sie]

@Hitman: If I set the height (depth) for an AI-Sub to < 0, then it does not use its virtual torpedoes.....(SSB, LGN1: can you confirm this, or am I wrong).

If I'm wrong, we could set the depth to < 0, but I fear it won't work.

[Anvart]

I doubt that it will help, but, IIRC, in sh3.exe there were strings: AI_SM_Actions.h and AI_SM_Actions.cpp... as i think AI State Machine...

[urfisch]

what about the torpedo dropping airplanes, someone created? somehow it must be possible, to add this to our boat! afaik there are speedboats with torpedos. what about them? do they attack with torpedos?

by the way, how did you manage to increase the attack radius of the boat?? and has someone tested to add parameters/controllers from sh4 or sh5 to sh3? maybe the exe is able to handle these, or even some of them?

just a thought.

[h.sie]

@Urfisch: Nice idea. The only thing left is to realise it. Do you want to try it out? I'm not able to do and I'm also not willing to learn how to model units. Too old for that.

But maybe anyone else wants to help? Let me please know....

I guess there have been hundreds of talented modders who tried to get some AI-Subs in the conventional way (without Assembler hack) - without success so far. So I think there is no chance in the conventional way. Last chance is a nice hack of the AI, but as I previously told: I don't know how.

Ask SSB how he managed to enlarge the radius. He knows. I guess he enlarged the max_radius in wpn_cannon controller.

[h.sie]

@SSB: Setting the depth of the AI-Sub to 10m seems to work. It still shoots virtual torpedoes, and the destroyers fight them with DepthCharges and Hedgehogs (but also with deckguns)

[FIREWALL]

Everyday I come back here to check out whats new I'm again amazed.

I'm in 1945 with old Starforce ver. of SH3 with GWX somewhat heavily modded and so far have survived @ 100 % realism. And have tried to play like your mod do's.

Your mod will bring it to a whole new level.


When war ends or I get killed I will toss old disc, refomat and install Encore SHIII StarForce free disc and GWX Gold.

YOURS IS THE FIRST MOD THEN I INSTALL !!!! :woot::woot::woot:

Sorry, Got alittle carried away. :D

[urfisch]

@Urfisch: Nice idea. The only thing left is to realise it. Do you want to try it out? I'm not able to do and I'm also not willing to learn how to model units. Too old for that.

But maybe anyone else wants to help? Let me please know....

I guess there have been hundreds of talented modders who tried to get some AI-Subs in the conventional way (without Assembler hack) - without success so far. So I think there is no chance in the conventional way. Last chance is a nice hack of the AI, but as I previously told: I don't know how.

Ask SSB how he managed to enlarge the radius. He knows. I guess he enlarged the max_radius in wpn_cannon controller.

yes, i sign on that. i think its not possible the conventional way.

it was more or less a general question to all, who are dealing with this subject here...i am also not the guy who diggs into the coding stuff and sort it out. im sorry for that...would be a great help, to have someone like privateer, anvart, diving duck or tdw challenging with that! even if its only some hind or little tips...

anyone, who has some experience in the exe or hardcoded structure in general would know where to search for a solution to our problem. in theory the game IS able to handle ai subs, i am really sure about that.

[h.sie]

@FIREWALL: Thank you:very much!!!:salute:

[makman94]

IMO, there are two things, that are EQUAL important for the success of ''wolfpacks'' project !

first one is to make the u-boats acting like u-boats ...meaning diving,throw torps...etc .

second one is that these u-boats must NOT be 'goofies' ! that means that must be developed ,at least, a basic 'inteligence' for the bdu considering these subs.

i see the community to be 'sticked' only to the first one without taking in consideration the second one.
imo, the second one must be solved or developed (if possible ) first.i guess that if you managed to get some success on this particular point that means that the way for 'clever' AI routines will be open too and this is what is really needed to be developed first .

becuase if you managed to get success on the first one only (without anything done for the second part) ....i am afraid that this will make the game more worst than... better. whenever a convoy is sited and a pack of u-boats just 'appears' and throw torps ...has no interest at all . will it be some randomness at the 'appearance' of these u-boats and the routines that will follow ? or it will be the same scene all the time ? and player will interact to all this in which way ? becuase if it turned the player to be only just a watcher (during or after ) the attack... well do you really see any interest on this ?

so, my point is that the second part is what must be examined-researched first .if this is solved then the success of the first one (if we guess that this is solved too) will be given . but without the second ...the first one seems to me that will be boring .

of course i am wishing all the best to these efforts so far and for sure are one more step forward but i really believe that second part must take into consideration !

just my two cents guys...

[h.sie]

@makman:

In the last 30-50 posts we discussed that topic: Interaction with the BDU and of course a simple BDU-AI is in work. The question whether the wolfpack subs will find the convoy mainly depends on the quality of the players estimation of the convoys course and speed (beneath some random factors as in RL and the question if there are wolfpacks available in the current time and region or not). The BDU will tell whether to keep contact and sent contact reports or to attack alone. The interception area is calculated from the BDU-AI and the Subs will be sent to this area and wait for the convoy. The better your contact reports, the higher the chance for finding the convoy.
This point described above can be done more or less well, depending on the time spent for programming the BDU-AI. In this point I'm slightly optimistic. But it will take time.

A cruical - and thus most discussed - point is the behaviour of the subs when attacking the convoy. Sergbutos AI-Subs attack the convoy with virtual torpedoes over a long range and will be treated as surface-ships by the escorts. Not very nice. But a "realistic" playing player (who does not follow the fight with his external cam) won't see that all in detail. He will only look for short times through his periscope and maybe see that the escorts suddenly leave their position - the right time for the player to do an own attack. Or he will suddenly see some burning ships far away. But a real kaleun didn't have an external cam to investigate in detail what happens. So I think, the most important thing, deflecting the escorts, can be achieved. Of course, it will not be perfect.

I also try (don't know if possible) to synchronize the attack with the BDU. The AI-Subs wait with their attack until BDU orders to attack. Will be hard to do. This is one point of my current work: Trying to disable the AI subs weapons until order to attack.

We won't get a perfect solution. But I hope a better one than the current solution: The current solution is as follows: AI-Subs are scripted in convoys. Even without any contact report they start to attack as far as they are rendered as 3D objects. This is static behaviour - without any player-interaction. I/we hope to achieve a better solution than that - but it will be away from being perfect, I know.

As soon as I see that a better solution than the current one (AI subs scripted into convoys) is not possible, I stop wasting my time with it.

[SquareSteelBar]

@SSB: Setting the depth of the AI-Sub to 10m seems to work. It still shoots virtual torpedoes, and the destroyers fight them with DepthCharges and Hedgehogs (but also with deckguns)In which file do you that setting? And for what reason? Maybe I missed something the last days due to lack of time... :hmmm:

[h.sie]

@SSB: In the .mis file. But forget it, it seems to make no difference. Still treated as surfaced ship, even in height=-10.0 in .mis file.

[SquareSteelBar]

Yep, it doesn't matter what depth/hight is set in .mis file.

[h.sie]

@SSB: Limiting ammo seems to work well, and CrewRating=4 is really overkill.

[Hitman]

What about simply making the wolfpack subs invisible, both to player and AI. They will just be spawned, shoot at the convoy whatever limited suplly of ammo we give them, and then have the escorts go to their position in a fruitless search and maybe depthcharging :hmmm:

But if the escorts can't see them, they won't shoot with surface weapons. They will just come to investigate, as they do when a merchant is suddenly hit by a torpedo. Maybe our efforts would be better spent trying to have real AI torpedoes impact on the merchants, shot by invisible "pseudo-uboats", because the escorts are guaranteed to leave the area to investigate and throw some DCs around at random IF they notice a torpedo hit in the convoy :up:

EDIT: The main problem to make AI shoot torpedoes IIRC was that it won't calculate lead angle correctly for such a slow weapon. Maybe making a special fast torpedo or even accoustic ones would work.

[h.sie]

@Hitman: Yep, I also thought about making the AI-Sub invisible. I don't know exactly from what it depends whether an object is visible or not, but it must somehow be connected with the objects dimensions (size) - maybe the 3D dimensions defined in the .dat??? Must be investigated!

@SSB: Do you have some spare time for that? :D How to make the AI-Sub invisible?


Regarding "AI-torpedoes": Nice idea, but: can you tell me how to do that?

My problem with these surely nice ideas is that I'm unfortunately restricted on what I am able to do, or what others can contribute. I am currently not able to make an AI-torpedo. But if someone can contribute one, I'll be thankful. Can someone?

[SquareSteelBar]

....@SSB: Do you have some spare time for that?...That's my main problem... :damn:

[h.sie]

@SSB: Noone rushes us. Only if you have time and feel like modding.......

[NGT]

Regarding "AI-torpedoes": Nice idea, but: can you tell me how to do that?

My problem with these surely nice ideas is that I'm unfortunately restricted on what I am able to do, or what others can contribute. I am currently not able to make an AI-torpedo. But if someone can contribute one, I'll be thankful. Can someone?


Yes, TheDarkWraith:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=148765&highlight=AI+Torpedoes

[Wolfstriked]

I think the dive and evade part of SH3 gameplay lacking and could be a huge boost for SH3?What I mean is things like the first dive and the fact that a DD headed towards you pinging as it charges is a very dangerous time for a uboat.I find that it all seems so easy,though this could be because I am in early part of the war.So I ask you guys if its easier then it should be?

Then I think of how it would be if the pinging was accurate and I realize that the actual dive mechanics of the uboats needs to also be altered.

You have a DD charging at you....you order flank ahead to gain as much speed as possible before the main ballast tanks have filled...and your helmsmen are constantly slowing the ship down by applying hydroplanes too early=bad

Your sub starts to submerge and the diesels cutoff and you wait a few seconds for the electrics to spool up=bad

Your now diving at a crawling pace because the game models only the main ballast tank and so its at a slight positive buoyancy=bad

Now Hsie,before you tell me you will not quit your job to model all this:haha:I feel it should be a more joint effort with more people involved.

Some things that could be changed to allow better pinging attacks and hence tension when being pinged.

Have it so that hydroplanes turn at different times for the different uboats so that first it willallow the boat to gain as much speed as possible before entry to enhance its initial dive speed and also make the fact that 25 secs compared to 35secs dive time WAS in fact a huge advantage.

Second is the way the diesels turn off and you wait a few seconds for the electrics to come on.This is way wrong since it was pretty much instantaneous and even done on the surface before the dive starts.In Sh3 they probably did this so that the engines are not constantly switching back and forth under heavy seas.I would think that the signal to dive would be enough though but I have no idea if that can be modeled in.

Third is about modeling in a placebo negative tank.What I mean has to do with Hsie's statement of an idea to model the ship getting heavier under silent running by changing the mass of the boat.I am thinking something like this.Model the initial dive mass to simulate the boat negative tank being filled by making the mass a bit heavier.Then hitting maintain depth equalizes the mass so that its now back to the default slight positive buoyancy we have now.Now here is where it gets tricky....how to model in the slight raising of mass when silent running????


Some more things for more realism in the dive and evade gameplay.Pinging for depth should have a consequence and so be heard by the uboat if its hydrophones are pointed towards you.It gives a slight chance of giving away where you are and adds tension to the mix for the captains.Same thing with blowing negative tank....a slight chance of being heard.

My game sometimes has the SO screaming depth charges in the water and alot of times not.I think this was a very important time for the uboat and when DC's in the water was spoken the boats did emergency manuevers to compensate.

Hedgehogs should be deadly now if the enemy is close upon charging!!!:arrgh!:

[TheDarkWraith]

What about simply making the wolfpack subs invisible, both to player and AI. They will just be spawned, shoot at the convoy whatever limited suplly of ammo we give them, and then have the escorts go to their position in a fruitless search and maybe depthcharging :hmmm:

But if the escorts can't see them, they won't shoot with surface weapons. They will just come to investigate, as they do when a merchant is suddenly hit by a torpedo. Maybe our efforts would be better spent trying to have real AI torpedoes impact on the merchants, shot by invisible "pseudo-uboats", because the escorts are guaranteed to leave the area to investigate and throw some DCs around at random IF they notice a torpedo hit in the convoy :up:

EDIT: The main problem to make AI shoot torpedoes IIRC was that it won't calculate lead angle correctly for such a slow weapon. Maybe making a special fast torpedo or even accoustic ones would work.

I believe that even if the item is invisible it's still detectable (unit wise). Don't quote me on that but I do recall doing some testing in that area many years ago. To make them invisible set the Visible property in the Type 4/100 nodes to 0.

It's not that lead angle isn't calculated correctly. The problem with spawning real torps is that they always point north and are never 'fed' a torpedo solution. They just continue blindly heading north until they hit something or run out of fuel. Even if fired from one of the other cardinal directions they will turn to head north.

One thing I never tried was using acoustic torps. By all rights those should work since even though they would initially head north they should lock onto a sound source and follow it. But that all depends on the FOV of the seeker head for locking onto sounds. I don't know what the FOV is for them and don't recall any parameters for them. Maybe it's 360?

[h.sie]

But very small objects are much less detactable than huge objects. So what about a very small sub with very unfriendly weapons.

[TheDarkWraith]

But very small objects are much less detactable than huge objects. So what about a very small sub with very unfriendly weapons.

Privateer tried something similar IIRC. But yes, the smaller the object the smaller the cross sectional area shown to the enemy and thus harder to detect.

EDIT:

the 'problem' with firing real torps could be fixed by feeding the torps the initial heading of the unit/item that fired them. If they can 'get' this info I believe then they could be used.

[urfisch]

tdw, thanks for your support here. we need some more skills around here...

:yeah:

[Silent Ace]

In future releases patches you may want to add the following.
Small submarine (type 2A / D) more sway over the navigation on the ocean surface, but larger and heavier submarines.
That the submarine suffered minor damage during the voyage across the stormy weather at sea level.
If the damage is repaired immediately it would not be accumulated over time, which could eventually lead to the sinking of the submarine.
If it is already in the plan to allow the issuance of the abandonment of the submarine should then disable the termination of the mission, campaign, his career as soon as one section of the submarine filled with water.
It is not realistic and a lot of examples from the history of submarine to the contrary that although multiple sections submarine was flooded in undamaged areas of the crew members survived.
There are numerous examples of sunken submarine crew who survived the undamaged parts of their boats to remember the crew of HMS Thetis (N25) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnGJH0etmUo&feature=player_detailpage);

USS Squalus (SS192)http://www.onr.navy.mil/focus/blowballast/images/squalus/flooding.gif;

USS Tang (SS306 )http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/0830625.jpg.... Kursk.
Successfully managed to emerge the crew, whose submarines were at depths less than 60 meters.
In the case of U-49 type-7b submarine, which is 15.04.1940 god. sunk in Narvik depth bombs from the British destroyers HMS Fearless and HMS Brazen and where a submarine was killed 1 and 41 survived and continued to serve in the Kriegsmarine.
The U-580 type-7c, which is following a collision with his victim boat Angelburg 11.11.1941 god. sank with 12 submariners were killed and 32 survived and continued to service the U-166 type 9C up to 30.7.1942 as when they died somewhere in the Gulf of Mexico.
U-185 tip9c/40 24.08.1943 which is flooded in the Middle Atlantic deep with 3 bombs from Avenger and Wildket where the 29 submariners died and 22 survived the first time but only 14 of them underwent to save U604.
U-284 tipe 7c 21.12.1943 which sank due to heavy damage south of Greenland and all 49 of whose crew members rescued submarine U-629.
U-476 tipe 7c which is 25/05/1944 northwest of Trondheim severely damaged by depth charge with Katalin where the 34 submariners were killed and 21 survivor is picked up by submarine U-990.
U-1013 03/17/1944 tipe 7c/41 who suffered a collision with U-286 in the Baltic with 25 submariners died and 25 survived.
And an example of how a man is strong when it comes to life on U512 tipe 9c which sank 02/10/1942 deep bombs as the B-18a and 51 of whose crew died and only one survived and the only one who spent 10 days in the water fighting for their own life before finally rescued of the American destroyers.
U-250 tip7c 07/30/1944 was hit in the area Diesel-room a deep bomb from the Russian destroyer MO-103 at 27m depth in the Gulf of Finland.
At the last moment the captain and five crew members are from "Zentrale" failing to leave the dying ship and become a Russian POW.
The Russians were soon after dragged to the surface of U-250 and you can see in the pictures below.
Notice the picture in the middle-order the depth charge "open" the body "Diesel room." On the last picture are 5 of 6 surviving crew members.
http://www.sk.rs/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=29210&d=1243323970http://www.sk.rs/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=29211&d=1243323979http://www.sk.rs/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=29212&d=1243323991

[urfisch]

yep, sign on that. it always disturbed me, that you loose your whole boat, just cause one section is flooded...nice idea, dude. thanks for that.

[Stiebler]

H.sie has recoded his V15G1 oxygen supply in such a way that my Options Selector can alter values on two sliders.

It was during testing that I realised that we have overlooked a component of the oxygen supply to the crew.

At present, the code consists of two components:
1. A renewable air supply, refreshed every time the U-boat surfaces.
2. A fixed air supply from compressed oxygen cylinders, which cannot be renewed when exhausted.

However, the crew of a submerged submarine cannot continue to release compressed air into a submarine to replace the oxygen which has been consumed. The pressure of the air in the sealed hull must keep rising, and at some point there must be a limit which is dangerous to the crew.

There are many U-boat stories, of how the crew brought a U-boat to the surface after a long time underwater, and, when they opened the hatch, the watch crew was nearly blown out of the hatch by the huge pressure in the U-boat hull. I repeat, there must be a limit to how much compressed air can be added to a sealed hull.

Therefore the code needs to take into account, not two, but three factors:
1. The renewable air supply, as previously.
2. The fixed air supply from compressed oxygen cylinders, from which only a certain amount of gas can be taken during each submergence.
3. However, there will remain a large quantity of unused compressed air, which can still be used after the next submergence. That is, after the U-boat has returned to the surface, equalised its pressure with the atmosphere, and then dived again.

The reason I mention items (2) and (3) is this problem, found during testing:
If the compressed air supply is too small (the current situation with V15G1), then it is all used up within 2-3 days of continued submergence, and the U-boat would have to return to base.
If the compressed air supply is too large (an option I am testing with the sliders), then the U-boat can stay submerged for much too long (up to a week).

The real situation is that you need a large supply of compressed air, so you do not have to return quickly to base, but you can only use a limited amount from this large supply during each submergence.

This could be coded by a limit on the amount of air that can be withdrawn from the gas bottles during each submergence, with a maximum limit that can be taken during each patrol.

One can imagine it thus:
For every patrol, the U-boat has (say) 10 bottles of oxygen. It can only open one bottle during each submergence.

I hope that is clear.

Whether this is worth all the coding trouble is hard to say. However, at present we have the tricky situation that the compressed oxygen supply can only be too small (won't allow 18 hour submergences), or too large (will allow extended patrols underwater). There is no middle way, unless the amount that can be taken in each submergence is limited.

Comments, please.

Stiebler.

[Anvart]

I believe that even if the item is invisible it's still detectable (unit wise). Don't quote me on that but I do recall doing some testing in that area many years ago. To make them invisible set the Visible property in the Type 4/100 nodes to 0.
In original sergbuto's Wolfpack mod, cannon, which simulated of "torpedo shot", had the geometry with visibility flag = 0...

It's not that lead angle isn't calculated correctly. The problem with spawning real torps is that they always point north and are never 'fed' a torpedo solution. They just continue blindly heading north until they hit something or run out of fuel. Even if fired from one of the other cardinal directions they will turn to head north.
For accuracy in terms ... in game there are AI torpedoes ... but there are no launchers for these torpedoes, with the exception of human sub(s) (wpn_SubTorpedoSys).
What is it "always point north"?
If you use for generation ("launch") of torpedo controllers as WhaterInteraction or ParticlesGenerator, you will receive orientation of torpedo as in its settings in chunk Type 4/100 - Rotation: Y = 0.0, since these controllers do not transmit (not inherited) orientation of object, which generated that torpedo.
Why? Because these controllers are designed to work with particles/effects where the inheritance of orientation is not needed.
lol... If you do not like the "North", you can choose any other such as Y = 1.24... ;)
And, AI Torpedo (controller amun_Torpedo and so on) will not work properly if the torpedo will be have the parent object (or in other words, if this torpedo will be child object). Example: torpedo generated by ParticlesGenerator.
...
And all this was known even before you were born on this forum... :03:

[h.sie]

@Stiebler: Only to make sure I understand things correctly:

You suggest a restriction of the usage of the compressed O2 supply to a certain amount (to, say, 10% of the total compressed O2 supply) for every dive-session?

I must admit that your arguments regarding air pressure in the boat sound plausible to me!

But I also ask myself: Is it worth the coding effort?

Reason: Since there is no gauge (and no code at all) for air pressure in the boat, I need to code a statesmachine for LI-warnings:

-"High pressure in boat,Sir"
-"Very high pressure in boat,Sir"
-"Very very high pressure in boat, we have to surface!"
-"Aaaaargh!" and so on.

It also must be programmed what happens if the boat does NOT surface when very high air pressure in the boat. Crew dying? Game over? I could program a nice CTD as discipline for the player.

I feel helpless - especially since all O2-programming is and has been based on more or less assumptions.

Did you get any answer from your friend you consulted days ago?

[h.sie]

@Stiebler:

Additional note:

The changes you suggested require to implement a totally new 3rd component to the game: the air pressure in the boat (what also requires to code what happens when pressure is high, very high, too high and so on).

Consequently, one should then also model the CO2 in the air as the 4th component (including coding all the situations that can occur when CO2 is too high and so on).

LGN1's and my initial idea was to implement a 2nd component to get an coarse approximation of reality, knowing, that it is still not exact, but better than stock sh3 with only 1 component. Now you suggest a 3rd component. I remember someone in the thread asking me to model CO2. Then we have 4 components. You have seen the code for the 2nd component. Numerous lines of assembler, ALTHOUGH the situation is very easy:
If (O2 in air too low) THEN {Use O2 supply}. - Nothing more had to be considered.
But the 3rd component "air pressure" is much harder to program, reasons see above.

I'm not saying that I won't do that, but at the moment I'm tired of O2 modding.

For all those who don't like the current O2-Supply solution, I offer to simply enlarge diving times (especially for the XXI) in case they disabled the O2-supply mod: TypeII: 60h / Type VII: 72h / Type IX: 80h / Type XXI: 150h.

[h.sie]

@SilentAce: Already on the todo-list.

[Stiebler]

@H.sie:

No need for lots of new messages about air pressure.

We require only a restriction on how often the compressed air can be used. Use a timer (hours only). Then LI announces: "limit on compressed air reached - we must surface!"

[Edit: The real problem, as stated above, is that the coded U-boat compressed air supply must always be too big or too small. If it is too big, the U-boat can stay submerged for a week or more. If it is too small, the U-boat cannot cross the Bay of Biscay safely, as per orders. I don't care about the air pressure. I used the air pressure as an example of how the real U-boat had the performance that it had underwater. We need to mimick this performance by a simpler route.]


It will be a few weeks before I get a reply from my 90-year-old friend.

Stiebler.

[SquareSteelBar]

...
-"High pressure in boat,Sir"
-"Very high pressure in boat,Sir"
-"Very very high pressure in boat, we have to surface!"
-"Aaaaargh!" and so on...The problem isn't the slow increase of pressure but the sudden decrease of pressure when the hatch is opened -> diver's paralysis [blood starts boiling]...

[h.sie]

@SSB:

I think Stieblers main interest is to limit the diving time per diving session and force the player to surface after some hours, because the usage of O2 supply causes an increase of the pressure in the boat. Currently, a type VII sub can stay submerged for max. 72 hours without surfacing.

@Stiebler:

Regarding LGN1's research, a type VII can dive up to 72 hours (he can surely give you the literature link). This is in total contrast to your opinion.

I think we need (historical) facts.

But let's assume, that LGN1's literature is wrong and the pressure in the boat limits diving-time. What shall happen if the player ignores your suggested warning "We have to surface"?

[Wolfstriked]

Is it possible that the compressed oxygen canisters were not high enough pressure wise to force the air pressure to dangerous levels?

[Anvart]

May be i'm wrong ... but the excess of air in the submarine can be compressed and thrown through torpedo tubes (or through special device).
or i badly understand your fu***ing english.

[LGN1]

The crucial thing you are missing is that the CO2 is chemically bound, i.e., it's removed. Without adding O2 you would get a lower pressure.

Cheers, LGN1

[h.sie]

@Stiebler (and NGT):

You both seem to desire a huge O2 supply that only seldom causes any problems / bottleneck.

a) So let's neglect these problems caused by O2-supply and set your desired O2-Supply to infinity in good approximation.

b) Now let's restrict the maximum diving-time per diving-session (caused by air pressure - or anything else) to, say, 36 to 72 hours.

(.....):DL

-> That's exactly the behaviour of the unpatched sh3.exe !!!

It seems that this behaviour fits your requirements much better than the current O2-Supply-Mod.

In the earlier patch versions before the O2-Supply-Mod, I only added some dependency of the diving-time on silent-running & repairs, but to be honest, in the meantime I think, that the influence of these factors on gameplay isn't significant enough to legitimate the programming effort. I wouldn't do it again.

So what is the problem with simply disabling the O2-Mod and use stock sh3 diving times (I'll help you to adjust them to fit your taste!).

In the moment, because we have only sparse historical facts, I don't plan to program anything new - based on assumptions......maybe later with more known facts!

@Stiebler: Since you anyway make an Addon (for Surrender-Mod), why not also put the old CO2-Mod from V15E in it?

[Stiebler]

@H.sie,

I sent you a PM, before I saw your last post.

I agree with the substance of what you said above.

However, a replacement V15E CO2 mod (using your code!) would better overwrite the existing V15G1 oxygen supply, than be a new addition.

Stiebler.

[h.sie]

@Stiebler: I have no problem if you overwrite the O2-Mod in your Addon, since it's your Addon that should fit your (and not my) requirements. :)

[Wolfstriked]

72 hours of stored O2 seems like a huge amount.Great to have for long patrols when your forced down for hours at a time.But,and I mentioned this before,It takes 2 minutes to refill the renewable air supply.Why even use the O2 supply when traveling submerged thru canals etc when a quick observation,surface for 2 minutes and back down to safety would save the precious O2.

I know that you guys have limited time and I think the O2 mod is really suffice as is.Its much more realistic than the original one;)

[Stiebler]

Regarding LGN1's research, a type VII can dive up to 72 hours (he can surely give you the literature link). This is in total contrast to your opinion.I agree, there is no argument. However, the crew would be crippled by exhaustion.

My problem is that any U-boat should be able to cruise for 20 hours submerged, without silent-running, and without crippling the crew. A leisure cruise, almost.

Furthermore, the U-boat should be able to do it at any time, provided that it has renewed its air on the surface first. V15G1 does not permit this for more than 3 days, after which the compressed air supply is used-up.

Stiebler.

[Silent Ace]

@SilentAce: Already on the todo-list.

:up:

[LGN1]

The air volume of the VIIC is approx. 400m^3 according to the original handbook from 1940.

Let's take an oxygen percent of 21% in air. At 17.5% oxygen has to be added according to the original handbook,i.e., 400 000l*0.035=14000l oxygen is available without any supply.

With a crew of 37 men and a submerged endurance of 20h this would mean that one man can consume on average 18.9l/hour oxygen. The original manual assumes 30l/hour for each man.

If you look around in the internet you can find that 18.9l/h oxygen consumption is really low. According to the quoted numbers, I doubt that staying submerged for 20h without adding oxygen would be a 'pleasure'.

Cheers, LGN1

[h.sie]

Only a thought:

In addition to the discussion about historical accuracy, one should also consider the different timescales of sh3 and "reality":

According to some books I read, hunting an UBoot sometimes took more than one day (if I remember correctly). In Sh3, a hunt won't take a day (this is an assumption - never tested). So in my opinion a good balance between Player UBoat and enemy is more important than historical accuracy. That means (in my opinion): diving times don't have to be as long as in reality.

[Silent Ace]

type 7c with capacity of 400 000 liters of air, of which at a concentration of 21% O2 contains 84 000 liters of oxygen.
average person breathes in 12-20 times per minute.
With each respiration inhaled 500 ml of air.
12 * 500 ml = 6 000 ml = 6 liters of air.
at a concentration of 21% 02
6 liters of air/ 21 %O2= 1.26 liters of O2 per minute per sailor.
1,26 liters O2 * 60 minutes = 75.6 liters of oxygen per hour or 1814,4 liters of O2 per day per man.
1814 liters of O2 * 37 man = 67,132 liters of oxygen per day for the crew of the submarine type 7c.
If the total amount of oxygen of 84 000 liters divided by the total daily consumption of the crew gives a score of 1.25 days or 30 hours.
after these 30 hours if no additional reserves of oxygen in the submarine are all dead.
Drager apparatus using a personal set of escape can be obtained for another 45 minutes and that's it.

[LGN1]

@Silent Ace:

I think there are two mistakes in your calculation:

1. When you are breathing your body does not consume all the oxygen in the air. Only a part is used (that's why you can support breathing in a first aid situation).

2. The complete oxygen in a sub cannot be used. The concentration must not drop below 17.x%.

Cheers, LGN1

[h.sie]

http://www.uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeIXC-S38.htm

The air purification and oxygen renewal systems are based on the requirements of 44 men during 72 hours total submergence. For air purification, a total of 315 canisters, each capable of absorbing 400 liters of CO2, are provided. For oxygen renewal a total of 13 flasks, each containing 50 liters of oxygen under 160 atmospheres (2275 p.s.i.) pressure, are installed. 44 sets of emergency breathing apparatus are carried on board.

[Silent Ace]

@Silent Ace:

I think there are two mistakes in your calculation:

1. When you are breathing your body does not consume all the oxygen in the air. Only a part is used (that's why you can support breathing in a first aid situation).

2. The complete oxygen in a sub cannot be used. The concentration must not drop below 17.x%.

Cheers, LGN1

I agree with your statement about the absorption of oxygen.
Soon I will expose here a more precise model of absorption of oxygen with all the accompanying effects on man because of his lack of air.
about the complete amount of oxygen in the submarine just wanted to say that after those 30 hours in the submarine would only live for anaerobic bacteria.

[h.sie]

@Stiebler, NGT:

In forthcoming V15G2, there will be both, the new O2-supply-Mod AND the older CO2-Mod from V15E, hoping, that all are satisfied now. But only one should be chosen. This is a temporarily solution until we have reliable facts.

[NGT]

@Stiebler, NGT:

In forthcoming V15G2, there will be both, the new O2-supply-Mod AND the older CO2-Mod from V15E, hoping, that all are satisfied now. But only one should be chosen. This is a temporarily solution until we have reliable facts.

Thank you very much!

I like your CO2 mod, and you spent a lot of time for that. Is good that remains alive.

Very kind of you :salute:

[Depesz]

I like the newest CO2 mod and the previous one too :). Everything that you come up I like, so keep up the good work and be more aggressive!

[Stiebler]

@H.sie, NGT:

I have now completed a full career (1939-1945) with NYGM 3.5 and H.sie's V15G1.

There were no issues, apart from the argument concerning oxygen supply, so H.sie has completed a brilliant job again!

I have constructed a new Options Selector (version 1.4) with two slider controls which enables the rate of use of the renewable and non-renewable (compressed oxygen) components to be varied from their defaults (1.0 and 1.0 respectively).

I have found that it is possible to set values which seem to be acceptable for NYGM, namely:
Renewable oxygen: setting = 2.5
Non-renewable oxygen: setting = 2.0

These are values that I obtained for submerged travel:
U-boat Renewable (hours) Non-renewable (hours**)
IIa .... 14 1/2.................. 38
VIIC .. 16 3/4 ................. 46
VIIC/41 - same as VIIC
IXC .... 19 3/4 ................ 58
IXD2 - similar to IXC

[EDIT: ** Hours to 50% usage on scale. Double values for total consumption - Sorry about that.]
How does this work out in practice, using the new values I mentioned above?

NYGM models the high density of air attacks in the Bay of Biscay, north-west of Spain after May 1943, fairly accurately.
If you sail a VIIC from St Nazaire out into the Atlantic in July 1943, sailing as close as possible to the north Spanish coast during the way out, then the U-boat has almost half-empty compressed air by the time it reaches square CF. This result is obtained simply by ensuring that the U-boat surfaces only during darkness, and never during daylight.
And it still needs to return through the Bay of Biscay!

Therefore, I consider these to be settings that are the minimum acceptable under the worst conditions of the war.

And therefore, it is not necessary for H.sie to re-introduce the oxygen supply of V15E as well as that of V15G1. I can accept the existing V15G1 with revised optional (slider) settings.

@NGT: perhaps you would like to carry out the same operation (sail a VIIC boat through the Bay of Biscay in July 1943 using NYGM 3.5), but with the default settings for oxygen supply, ie those currently in V15G1. It will help you to understand the problem of the default settings.

Stiebler.

[h.sie]

@Stiebler: Thanks. That would indeed save a lot of work.

One thought: You have played a whole career 1939-45 in one day? Then you obviously used very high TC. I discovered for very high TC an inaccuracy in O2/CO2 calculation. Values differ for lower TC.

[Stiebler]

You have played a whole career 1939-45 in one day?Definitely not in one day, no. About a week.

However, I ran my tests for oxygen consumption reported above at 1024-2048x tc.

I shall re-check to see if this affects figures.

EDIT:
Times with settings 2.5x renewable - 2.0x nonrenewable:

TC=2048:
Can stay dived for 14 1/4 hours on renewables, 46 1/2 hours to 50% usage of renewable O2 on gauge.

TC=256
Can stay dived for 13 1/4 hours on renewables, 36 3/4 hours to 50% usage of renewable O2 on gauge.

Yes, H.sie is right, quite a large difference at higher Time Compression.
Stiebler.





Stiebler.

[h.sie]

@NGT: Please read this post:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1699277&postcount=1821

I suggest to give Stieblers suggested settings in forthcoming V15G2 a try !!!

If that works good for you (as it does for Stiebler) I would save a lot of work and time to re-implement the old CO2-fix. I know, I announced to re-implement it, but that announcement based on Stieblers conclusion that the O2-Fix does not work properly. He in the meantime corrected that conclusion - so I offtake my announcement and apologize for that situation.

This was a good demonstration what can happen if one tries to fit other peoples taste.

[NGT]

@NGT: .......................................

......................

I know, I announced to re-implement it, but that announcement based on Stieblers conclusion that the O2-Fix does not work properly. He in the meantime corrected that conclusion - so I offtake my announcement and apologize for that situation.

This was a good demonstration what can happen if one tries to fit other peoples taste.


@h.sie

No problem for me.

Please proceed as you like. No need for apologizing at all.

Thanks to you and Stiebler we have a new game.

I have all your patch (yours + Stiebler) and for sure, I did, without problem, my personal choice.

Please follow your instinct, and the game will be better for everybody.

Really best regards :salute:

[NGT]

@Stiebler

This new version 1.4 of Options Selector can be available for download?

Thanks mate.

[h.sie]

@NGT: The new OptionsSelector alone won't help you, since it can only be used with forthcoming V15G2, but not with V15G1. Will take some days.

[Anvart]

The crucial thing you are missing is that the CO2 is chemically bound, i.e., it's removed. Without adding O2 you would get a lower pressure.

Cheers, LGN1
:DL
Especially when I see these messages?
... warnings:

-"High pressure in boat,Sir"
-"Very high pressure in boat,Sir"
-"Very very high pressure in boat, we have to surface!"
-"Aaaaargh!" and so on.

I understand what you write ... I do not understand the meaning of the proposed warnings ...
In the submarine there are everything to reduce pressure (and in some cases to increase pressure without using oxygen).

Cheers, Alex.

[h.sie]

@Anvart: These messages result from my misunderstanding of Stieblers statement regarding air pressure in the sub. This misunderstaning has been resolved in the meantime.

[urfisch]

any progress on something here?

:salute:

[FIREWALL]

Hi h.sie I just installed new Encore ver SH3 without STARFORCE and when I try to download your mod it wants me to signup to Mediafire and install toolbar with Download Manager.

Is there a way to DL mod without going thru all that ? I have Stiebler's version and can't get it to work. Readme is kind of confuseing.
Printed it out and followed it as best as I could understand it and nothing works.

I bought new Encore SH3 dvd just for this mod.

Thx if you can help. :salute:

[h.sie]

@urfisch: Yes.

@FIREWALL: Don't install any crap from mediafire page like download manager or similar. I just tried and managed to DL the patch kit from mediafire without installing anything. But there was some crappy advertisement for IPhone - I just ignored it and closed the appropriate browser window. Please try again. If you don't succeed, tell me. Then, I'll upload it to a different file hoster (filefront). But that may take 1 day, since my DSL connection isn't working at the moment and my only connection is UMTS via surf stick - very slow.

h.sie

[SquareSteelBar]

Or try Plissken (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=229896)'s ftp server:

ftp://hartmuthaas.no-ip.org/Volume_2/Sharing/SH3COMMUNITYMODS/H.SIE/

.

[FIREWALL]

@ h.sie Still wants me to sign up.

@ SSB Bad link. Edit: Got it to work. Maybe to many on at same time to work.


@ h,sie Would you please still put it on FF.


I sincerily THANK you both. :salute:

[FIREWALL]

You deserve to have me post this here as well as my own thread. :DL


:woot::woot::woot: Thank You both for takeing the time with this lunkhead :DL

As I think you guys can tell by my subtle beginning of post :haha: that we together got it working.

And to all out there that don't have it keep trying. The Excellent Support is here. :yep:

IT IS SWEET and does ao much for realism.

I VOTE this as the best mod since GWX and SH3Commander to add to REALISM to Silent Hunter.

And it works with all the extra mods I have installled without a problem at all.

:salute: to h.sie and Stiebler For their Fantastic Support. :salute:

[SquareSteelBar]

What was the culprit?

[FIREWALL]

What was the culprit?

I wish I knew, honestly. :yep: I'm just not that bright with Software. :damn:

I followed Steibler's Detailed instructions and gave it a whirl.

It takes time to check all the things in Option's that are ticked.

But my WO Auto goes to Conning Tower when I surface. :up:

And over 3-4 kts the Peri blurs like real thing. :up:


The only other thing I've been able to try was sinking a freighter and sending a Patrol Report.

Response was : Bdu to U-100 and a blank page. I'm sure I did something wrong and they'''ll help me fix it. :yep:

[h.sie]

@FIREWALL: Great to hear that it (almost) seems to work for you now. If one once understands how patching works, it's easy in the future....

The problem you described above indicates that something went wrong with the en_menu.txt or de_menu.txt files which contain the new messages used by the hardcode fixes. These new messages can be found at the end of the appropriate files and must be appended to your files of your sh3 installation.

Stiebler very detailed described the procedure in a different thread you opened. I guess you made a little mistake. It seems that the new messages didn't find their way into your sh3-installation.

It seems you are not very experienced with PC's, but your experience will rise by this patching work.....

[h.sie]

I think this weekend we'll have a new version V15G2.

* Diving-times adjustable via Options-Selector
* TC switches back to 1 when using O2 supply from bottles
* Docking at U-Tanker possible 2 weeks after last docking
* BDU messages bugfix

[Magic1111]

I think this weekend we'll have a new version V15G2.

* Diving-times adjustable via Options-Selector
* TC switches back to 1 when using O2 supply from bottles
* Docking at U-Tanker possible 2 weeks after last docking
* BDU messages bugfix

Sounds great, many thanks in advance !!!:Kaleun_Applaud:

[urfisch]

:salute:

:yeah:

[Hitman]

Oh wow, GREAT :yeah:

[reaper7]

Cheers h.sie look forward to testing it :up:

[h.sie]

Thanks. Responses not necessary. This update is small and not worth mentioning it. But I accidently made a double-post (#1838,1839) so I had to think about what I could write in the second post.

[SquareSteelBar]

...But I accidently made a double-post (#1838,1839) so I had to think about what I could write in the second post.E.g. that:

SH3 enhanced now to full wolfpack ability !!!

:haha:

[thestoon]

@FIREWALL: Great to hear that it (almost) seems to work for you now. If one once understands how patching works, it's easy in the future....

The problem you described above indicates that something went wrong with the en_menu.txt or de_menu.txt files which contain the new messages used by the hardcode fixes. These new messages can be found at the end of the appropriate files and must be appended to your files of your sh3 installation.

Stiebler very detailed described the procedure in a different thread you opened. I guess you made a little mistake. It seems that the new messages didn't find their way into your sh3-installation.

It seems you are not very experienced with PC's, but your experience will rise by this patching work.....

It could be that FIREWALL has a mod which is replacing his modified en_menu.txt with one that doesn't contain the updated messages.

If you use JSGME to install any mods then you must make the changes to the last mod which updates en_menu.txt or they will be wiped out when you install that mod.

On another note - h.sie, this is fantastic work. You sir, are a legend. :)

[Wolfstriked]

I think this weekend we'll have a new version V15G2.

* Diving-times adjustable via Options-Selector
* TC switches back to 1 when using O2 supply from bottles
* Docking at U-Tanker possible 2 weeks after last docking
* BDU messages bugfix

Kool Beans:arrgh!:Whats up with the diving times adjustable via options?:o

[FIREWALL]

It could be that FIREWALL has a mod which is replacing his modified en_menu.txt with one that doesn't contain the updated messages.

If you use JSGME to install any mods then you must make the changes to the last mod which updates en_menu.txt or they will be wiped out when you install that mod.

On another note - h.sie, this is fantastic work. You sir, are a legend. :)

While I know I made a mistake somewhere installing the mod. I tested it without any default GWX mods or any extra mods installed.

You would have known this if you read my DETAILED post. I don't mean to sound harsch thestoon but, it get's tireing reposting a repeat that I posted earlier.

[thestoon]

While I know I made a mistake somewhere installing the mod. I tested it without any default GWX mods or any extra mods installed.

You would have known this if you read my DETAILED post. I don't mean to sound harsch thestoon but, it get's tireing reposting a repeat that I posted earlier.

You can sound as harsh as you like. I'll admit to skipping your posts on this thread. I only generally read the posts by h.sie here. My interest is in the patch, not peoples difficulties in installing it. It is his thread after all.

If i'd made that post in the thread specific to your issues, then you'd have cause for complaint - but not here.

Overall, it was a generic point, made without any consideration of your situation and not necessarily directed at you. It may not affect you personally, but its always advice worth repeating and it may help someone somewhere along the line.. Its something simple which can make things appear they aren't working correctly.

Anyway... moving on...

[FIREWALL]

@ h,sie & Stiebler :woot: Followed Stielber's well written instructions and saw my mistake.

Put in h,sie's patch into jsgme instead of Supplement jsgme. :doh:

The only mod conflict was Rafael's DSK Gui. Easy fix. I installed it manually.

The conflict de_menu and en_ menu.

Thx again you 2 :salute: I won't be around SubSim for awhile as I will be playing SH3\GWX and h.sie's Patch as the sim was meant to be played. :up:

[h.sie]

@FIREWALL; TheStoon:

Good to know it now works for you. Hope you like it!!

In my opinion, thestoon's comment was very constructive and helpful, because he exactly pointed out what people often do wrong. I should consider his words in the QuickManual. Thank you.

[Kaleun Cook]

After a long break from SH3 I'm trying the latest beta version. Till now, everything works as advertised - also I didn't have any problems with the silent-running-sinking on my GWX installation. :up:

[h.sie]

Small Update V15G2 available for beta testing

Changes:



O2-Supply-Mod:

a) Since there was some disagreement regarding diving-times, Stieblers Options-Selector now contains 2 Sliders for individually fine-adjusting the diving-times resulting from the renewable and non-renewable oxygen component. Leave them unchanged at their default-values (1,0), if you are satisfied with the diving-times adjusted by LGN1 and me. Choose e.g. a factor of 2,0 in order to double the diving-time. For NYGM, Stiebler recommends values of 2.0 (renewable supply) and 10.0 (non-renewable supply, bottled air).

b) TC switches to 1 when oxygen is low and the LI starts to use botteled air supply.



U-Tanker-Mod: Docking at an U-Tanker now possible 2 weeks after the last docking at an U-Tanker (old value was 2 months).



BDU-Messages-Mod:

a) Bugfix ("Sink no neutrals"-Message at patrol start).

b) More random behaviour: After sinking a ship, you no more get a congratulation with 100% chance.

Known problem: "Sink no neutrals"-Message only works at patrol start when you have no tonnage sunk so far and sinking a neutral leads to negative tonnage.


Notes:



The Messages have not changed from V15G1 to V15G2. So if you already have V15G1: No need to fiddle around with en_menu.txt and de_menu.txt.



Differing from the Options-Selectors Help-File, V15G2 does not contain Stieblers "Surrender"-Mod.

[NGT]

Thank you very much.

Very useful optimizations (for me...) permitting personalization of the game. :up:

We can apply the Surrender mod patch (Stiebler patch)?

[Robin40]

Already patched to V15G1

Applied Supplemental

Do you repeat the same process to a sh3.old exe?

[h.sie]

@NGT: See post #1853: No. But I'm sure, Stiebler will provide his "Surrender" Addon soon.

@Robin: Yes, always use the original sh3.exe as starting point for patching (has been renamed to sh3.old during an earlier patching process).

[Magic1111]

Small Update V15G2 available for beta testing

Changes:



O2-Supply-Mod:

a) Since there was some disagreement regarding diving-times, Stieblers Options-Selector now contains 2 Sliders for individually fine-adjusting the diving-times resulting from the renewable and non-renewable oxygen component. Leave them unchanged at their default-values (1,0), if you are satisfied with the diving-times adjusted by LGN1 and me. Choose e.g. a factor of 2,0 in order to double the diving-time. For NYGM, Stiebler recommends values of 2.0 (renewable supply) and 10.0 (non-renewable supply, bottled air).

b) TC switches to 1 when oxygen is low and the LI starts to use botteled air supply.


U-Tanker-Mod: Docking at an U-Tanker now possible 2 weeks after the last docking at an U-Tanker (old value was 2 months).


BDU-Messages-Mod:

a) Bugfix ("Sink no neutrals"-Message at patrol start).

b) More random behaviour: After sinking a ship, you no more get a congratulation with 100% chance.

Known problem: "Sink no neutrals"-Message only works at patrol start when you have no tonnage sunk so far and sinking a neutral leads to negative tonnage.

Notes:



The Messages have not changed from V15G1 to V15G2. So if you already have V15G1: No need to fiddle around with en_menu.txt and de_menu.txt.


Differing from the Options-Selectors Help-File, V15G2 does not contain Stieblers "Surrender"-Mod.



Many thanks for new Version h.sie ! :up:

I´m going to test this evening...! :yep:

Best regards,
Magic:salute:

[fitzcarraldo]

Many thanks, H.sie! Testing now...All OK for now.:yeah:

Best regards.

Fitzcarraldo :salute:

[Wolfstriked]

Thank you Hsie.:up:

[rudewarrior]

I hate to be a distraction in all of this O2 consumption discussion, but it looks like a few pages back you all were discussing with some users how to implement the u-tankers fix with the surface ship "tankers." Someone suggested inserting "U-" in the front of all of the NavalBase Name= entries in the Campaing_SCR.mis file. The only problem is the people who were posting in the thread were having problems with getting both the torpedo replenishment function and the BdU messages to work, and then...that's it. The conversation moved on to getting the messages to work, and no one communicated if they were successful in fixing the torpedo replenishment problem. :06:

So:

1. Is there anyone who has done this "fix" and gotten it to work successfully?

and

2. Could you communicate explicitly what you did in terms of editing?

Thanx in advance.

[andqui]

I have no idea about the difficulty involved, but maybe it would be possible to implement the U-tanker resupply feature for all friendly bases as well- especially in the Norwegian and Mediterranean operations, U-boats frequently made brief stops at other bases for a quick resupply.

thanks

[rudewarrior]

1. Is there anyone who has done this "fix" and gotten it to work successfully?

and

2. Could you communicate explicitly what you did in terms of editing?


To answer my own post, I edited only the NavalBase entries such that it said "U-" in front of what it used to say in the Campaing_SCR.mis file. I only did it for the NavalBase entries, as it seems that the other entries (such as for the Belchen Supply Ship) are actually calling for the type of ship that actually appears in-game. I tried it and it worked, refueling me and giving me two torps. I didn't have any sort of damage to repair, but I don't see any reason to assume that wouldn't have worked.

It seems that using the "U-Tanker fix" for the surface resupply is a reasonable method to maintain a realistic approach for this type of resupply as evidenced here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=185831). (h/t to mookiemookie):salute: Hopefully, having it indicated on the map as "U-Belchen Supply Ship" won't be too annoying. :shifty:

Finally, I would like to ask another question. This mod includes a set of indicators that updates the CO2 dial to an O2 dial. Unfortunately, this dial is not updated in the actual command room/zentrale (?). Can someone point me to the file where this dial is located? I can find all the other dials but that one.

Thanx in advance.

[SquareSteelBar]

...Can someone point me to the file where this dial is located?...
cadrane1_2.tga
cadrane2.tga
cadrane_21.tga

They're included in interior .dat files [CR & CT]. It's the gauge in the lower left corner...

[Gammel]

@h.sie @stiebler
is there any chance som day you'll some of this magic here with the SH4.exe? :sunny:

[rudewarrior]

cadrane1_2.tga
cadrane2.tga
cadrane_21.tga

They're included in interior .dat files [CR & CT]. It's the gauge in the lower left corner...

Thanx SSB. Now on to two more questions:

What is the font used for the numbers and letters printed on the dial?

and

In the supplemental O2 gauges, what does it actually have printed on the center of the O2 gauge? I can see O2, but I can't read what is underneath it, and when I zoom it, it just blurs out. I think it says "Genr. %," but I can't relate that to a German word to confirm it.

[SquareSteelBar]

...What is the font used for the numbers and letters printed on the dial?...Don't know for sure. Maybe 'Arial' [bold]?

...I think it says "Genr. %," but I can't relate that to a German word to confirm it.'Gew. %'

'Gew.' is the abbreviation of 'Gewicht' [english: weight].

[Stiebler]

A while ago, there was a friendly argument in this thread about how long the oxygen supply in a U-boat lasted before it needed to be augmented with compressed air, and how long the compressed air supply lasted.

I have now received an answer from an officer who once served on U-boats, see here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=185993

His personal answer provides, I think, unique knowledge from a rare survivor with direct expereince.

Stiebler.

[SquareSteelBar]

I think here's something mixed up again.

IIRC the original question was 'how long lasts the content of these additional compressed oxygen cylinders?' [not compressed air - that's not the same!] to augment the O² percentage of breathable air.

:hmmm:

[Wolfstriked]

Hsie,any news on next version???Also if you are not aware yet but if you dive under 40m to load torpedoes in bad weather you can then rise to surface and finish loading there.Finally,if you could possibly make all friendly ports able to refuel the sub.Would make going around the Jutland peninsula easier for a TypeIIa or any Uboat for that matter since you can run full speed and then refuel before heading out to sea.

[Capt. Morgan]

That is a very interesting read.

I think here's something mixed up again.

IIRC the original question was 'how long lasts the content of these additional compressed oxygen cylinders?' [not compressed air - that's not the same!] to augment the O² percentage of breathable air.

:hmmm:

Stieblers' questions were:


i) how long the oxygen in a U-boat lasted before it became necessary to add compressed air;
ii) how long the compressed air supply lasted before it became all used up.My reading of his translation is that the author seems to be talking about the use of compressed air only in relation to controlling depth.

He mentions that it was common to start adding oxygen after a few hours submerged, but makes no comment on how much oxygen a boat carried - instead he goes on to state that the battery charge, not oxygen, was the limiting factor in underwater endurance (maximum 18-20 hrs).

Stieblers' recommended oxygen settings for NYGM (2-inboat : 10-oxygen reserve) provide results in keeping with the authors comments. you start adding oxygen after about 4 hours submerged, but your oxygen supply is large enough that you would ordinarily not need to worry about running out in the course of a patrol.

P.S.
Tremendous things are being accomplished with this patch, Thankyou!

[Stiebler]

My questions to my friend were precisely these:

i) how long has the oxygen in a U-boat lasted before it became necessary to add compressed air;
ii) how long has the compressed air supply lasted before it became all used up?

Perhaps I should have specified 'compressed oxygen' specifically too.
However, my friend is an intelligent man, and would certainly have written voluntarily of any information about a pure oxygen supply, if he knew of it. He volunteered a lot of other information.

Is there any definite information that U-boats carried pure oxygen?

Stiebler.

[LGN1]

Thanks a lot for posting the answer from your friend, Stiebler :up:

U-boats definitely carried compressed air and pure oxygen. See, e.g., here:

http://www.uboatarchive.net/DesignStudiesTypeIXC.htm

Also the original VIIC handbook in German gives detailed information about the amount of pure oxygen and compressed air.

It's amazing that there is hardly any detailed information available :-? It seems one has to find a LI/Chief Engineer who is still alive and remembers the actual procedures (measuring CO2 and O2, regulating the ventilation system,...)

Regards, LGN1

Stiebler, from your friend's reply you can see what were the reasons why h.sie implemented the modified oxygen consumption when ordering 'silent running'. It's done to simulate the resting crew.

[Hitman]

Is there any definite information that U-boats carried pure oxygen?Oh yes, there is ... look here, from the VIIC manual (http://www.uboatarchive.net/Manual.htm), available at Uboatarchive.net:


Oxygen flasks at 150 kg/cm² -------> 500 liters This is the whole data and procedure, at pages 84 & 85:



b) Safety equipment. High pressure air system, air volume at 205 atm: 3900 liters Oxygen renewal system, oxygen volume at 1 atm: 75000 liters Air purification system, sodium hydrate cartridges: 212 units
Here's the explanation of all the procedure:

b) Air purification system. The air purification system consists of: Purification system: removing CO2 by means of sodium hydroxide cartridges Renewal system: bleeding O2 from oxygen flasks. A man when breathing, creates 30 liters/hour of CO2 and needs the same amount of O2. The air purification system maintains the CO2 content at 1.5% level and O2 content at 17.5%. CO2 content above 2% is injurious. The estimation of time, when 1.5% CO2 content in 400 m³ of air in the boat will be reached: 37 men creates per hour: 37 x 30 x 100/400000 = 0.28% CO2 / hour So 1.5% CO2 content will be reached after 5 hours 20 minutes. The measurement of CO2 and O2 concentration is made by means of Orsat devices, first time after 4 hours of submerged cruise. Moreover there are CO2 sampling tubes to detect carbon dioxide content above 1.5%. Air purification
3 air purifiers are used for air purification connected to exhaust air duct, located as follows: In the aft torpedo and E motor room In the control room In the forward torpedo room Each air purifier consists of 4 sodium hydroxide cartridges.The air from the compartment is withdrawn through an air exhaust duct through the air purifier and purified air is returned by an air intake duct. The regulating valve allows adjustment of the amount of air passing through the purifier. When adjusting, the amount of passing air should be kept as low as possible to avoid warming the cartridges, because in this case, the cartridges don't reach their full efficiency. Ventilation capacity is: In the 1st hour – 350 liters/hour In the 2nd hour – 400 liters/hour In the 3rd hour – 450 liters/hour Air renewal
Air renewal takes place, when the oxygen content drops below 17.5%. 10 oxygen flasks are provided, with capacity 50 liters each at a pressure of 150 atm. These flasks are located as follows: E motor room 1 flask Diesel engine room 2 flasks Control room 4 flasks Forward torpedo room 3 flasks
The main manifold, to which all flasks are connected, has a branch from the control room to the upper deck, which is used for filling the flasks with oxygen. Oxygen can be supplied through connecting pipes to the air exhaust duct and added to circulating air or bled directly into the compartments of the boat. Regulating valves installed in the connecting ducts and in the end of branch leading to the conning tower, which allow adjusting the oxygen feed rate depending on crew numbers. The stored oxygen and sodium hydroxide cartridges enable the crew of 37 men, to remain continuously submerged for 72 hours.

[Stiebler]

@LGN1, Hitman:

Thanks very much for these detailed accounts of pure oxygen carried on board U-boats.

It appears, then, that my friend has forgotten this aspect of U-boat life. Not surprising, I suppose, after the passage of more than 65 years.

Stiebler.

[Magic1111]

Hi Folks !

@ Stiebler
@ Hitman
@LGN1
@ h.sie
or other that know this !

In regarding to V15G2 and this...


O2-Supply-Mod:
a) Since there was some disagreement regarding diving-times, Stieblers Options-Selector now contains 2 Sliders for individually fine-adjusting the diving-times resulting from the renewable and non-renewable oxygen component. Leave them unchanged at their default-values (1,0), if you are satisfied with the diving-times adjusted by LGN1 and me. Choose e.g. a factor of 2,0 in order to double the diving-time. For NYGM, Stiebler recommends values of 2.0 (renewable supply) and 10.0 (non-renewable supply, bottled air).


After the discuss: What "slider settings" would you recommend that it is realistic? :hmmm:

I want to play at maximum realismus, so should I leave them unchanged by 1,0 or would you recommend another value (for both slider-settings) ? :hmmm:

Thx for answers guys ! :yeah:

Best regards,
Magic:salute:

[SquareSteelBar]

My intention in post #1868 wasn't to bother somebody...

I just wanted to clarify that compressed air isn't the same like compressed oxygen since this is often mixed up by some mates here... ;)






.

[Hitman]

It appears, then, that my friend has forgotten this aspect of U-boat life. Not surprising, I suppose, after the passage of more than 65 years.

I don't think so John, in my opinion he got confused by the wording of your question. Probably he thought YOU were confused :). Take a look at your original question:

i) how long has the oxygen in a U-boat lasted before it became necessary to add compressed air;

You are mixing here the two things, oxygen and compressed air -not compressed oxygen. A better way of making the question could have been first if compressed air was used to renew the one needed for the crew to breath, or if it was solely relied upon the compressed oxigen. To add more confusion, your second question related only and exclusively to compressed air, which he obviously interpretated solely in relation to maneuvering.

As my teacher used to say, if you want to get correct answers you must first ask the proper question :) I understand language and not being able to speak directly are a big problem, however.

Sad that those veterans are older every day and that soon all of them will have passed away, taking with them lots of unsolved questions :cry:

[Magic1111]

Hi Folks !

@ Stiebler
@ Hitman
@LGN1
@ h.sie
or other that know this !

In regarding to V15G2 and this...



After the discuss: What "slider settings" would you recommend that it is realistic? :hmmm:

I want to play at maximum realismus, so should I leave them unchanged by 1,0 or would you recommend another value (for both slider-settings) ? :hmmm:

Thx for answers guys ! :yeah:

Best regards,
Magic:salute:

No answer....? :hmmm:

[SquareSteelBar]

I think it's not definitively clarified yet. The discussion is still in full activity...

[Magic1111]

I think it's not definitively clarified yet. The discussion is still in full activity...

Aaah, okay....!

BTW, what for "Slider-settings" do you use ?

Best regards,
Magic

[Stiebler]

what "Slider-settings" do you use ?(In connexion with oxygen settings).

For the NYGM supermod, current recommended settings are these:
Oxygen in boat: 2.0 (default is 1.0)
Compressed oxygen: 2.5 (default is 1.0).

There is no reason why any of the other supermods should require different settings. The recommended values permit a certain amount of management, without requiring attention at all times.

Stiebler.

[Magic1111]

(In connexion with oxygen settings).

For the NYGM supermod, current recommended settings are these:
Oxygen in boat: 2.0 (default is 1.0)
Compressed oxygen: 2.5 (default is 1.0).

There is no reason why any of the other supermods should require different settings. The recommended values permit a certain amount of management, without requiring attention at all times.

Stiebler.

Thanks Stiebler ! :up: Will try the settings ! :D

Best regards,
Magic:salute:

[LGN1]

Hi Magic1111,

based on the (few) facts that we have at the moment, I think the default 1.0/1.0 setting is the most realistic setting. In addition, I think it's more fun playing with this setting.

Just play with different settings and see what you like more. Or even better, just go a few pages back and read the posts/discussion about the ideas behind the different settings and then decide.

Cheers, LGN1

[Magic1111]

Hi Magic1111,

based on the (few) facts that we have at the moment, I think the default 1.0/1.0 setting is the most realistic setting. In addition, I think it's more fun playing with this setting.

Just play with different settings and see what you like more. Or even better, just go a few pages back and read the posts/discussion about the ideas behind the different settings and then decide.

Cheers, LGN1

Many thanks for reply ! :yeah:

Yes, you´re right, will try it with different settings (begin with what Stiebler recommend) and on the next patrol I try default settings ! And after this I decide ! ;)

Best regards,
Magic:salute:

[www2]

Is it possible to use only this :

Watch Officer automatically moves to bridge when surfacing (V15E or later)
The lazy watch officer now automatically moves to the bridge when surfacing. If there is an Officer in the Bow-Quarters he will move to the bridge. If not, an Officer from the Stern-Quarters will be moved up. If the Turm is critically damaged or destroyed, no Officer will be moved up.

...if yes, how?

Thank you

[SquareSteelBar]

Use the 'OptionsSelector' which is delivered with the patch.

-> RTFM

[Fish In The Water]

Use the 'OptionsSelector' which is delivered with the patch.

Once you've got it up and running, it should look like this:

http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/1121/hsie.png

Simply de-select everything except "Move 1WO to bridge" and presto... :sunny:

[FIREWALL]

Once you've got it up and running, it should look like this:

http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/1121/hsie.png

Simply de-select everything except "Move 1WO to bridge" and presto... :sunny:

I'm useing V15GI and everything works beautifully. :up: How do I open this out of game to make changes if I want to ?

[Fish In The Water]

I'm useing V15GI and everything works beautifully. :up: How do I open this out of game to make changes if I want to ?

Just run the 'HsieOptionsSelector.exe' file. It comes included in the V15G1 patch kit folder. :sunny:

[BogdaNz]

I dont understeand.
So when i am submerged only batteries consume ,when batteries where at 10 % then CO2 start to consume
But when i am surface only batteries start to load! i need to recharge my oxigen ,and it dont recharge !

[Rhodes]

I dont understeand.
So when i am submerged only batteries consume ,when batteries where at 10 % then CO2 start to consume
But when i am surface only batteries start to load! i need to recharge my oxigen ,and it dont recharge !

Got the same doubt yesterday but in the help files, there is a explanation!

"
Oxygen-Supply
So far, SH3 models only a 100% renewable oxygen (O2) supply. That means: After a long period of diving, say 40 hours, it was enough to surface and after that the Uboat was able to dive for 40 hours again and again. Now, with this patch, O2 is divided into two parts: A renewable part and a non-renewable part. The renewable part is the O2 in the air of the Uboat. This part is sufficient for a diving period of about 5-7 hours. During this time the LI informs you about the O2 content of the air, starting at the normal value 21% and slowly decreasing to the critical value of 17%. At 17%, the LI automatically starts to adds O2 from the oxygen-supply (contained in pressure bottles). This O2 supply is sufficient for a long diving period of about 30 - 100 hours (depending on Uboat type), but that O2-supply is non-renewable! That means: It is not filled up when surfacing. Only the O2 in the air is restored to the normal value of 21% when surfacing. From now on the Player has to act economically regarding O2 supply, what adds a new strategical component to the game. The consumption of oxygen depends on the current crew number. The more crew, the more O2 is consumed. The consumption of O2 will be lowered if the crew is on silent-running routine. The net effect is that the U-boat can stay submerged longer. Repairing, flooding recovery and reloading of torpedoes will boost the O2 consumption."

From HSIEoptions help file!

[BogdaNz]

Got the same doubt yesterday but in the help files, there is a explanation!

"
Oxygen-Supply
So far, SH3 models only a 100% renewable oxygen (O2) supply. That means: After a long period of diving, say 40 hours, it was enough to surface and after that the Uboat was able to dive for 40 hours again and again. Now, with this patch, O2 is divided into two parts: A renewable part and a non-renewable part. The renewable part is the O2 in the air of the Uboat. This part is sufficient for a diving period of about 5-7 hours. During this time the LI informs you about the O2 content of the air, starting at the normal value 21% and slowly decreasing to the critical value of 17%. At 17%, the LI automatically starts to adds O2 from the oxygen-supply (contained in pressure bottles). This O2 supply is sufficient for a long diving period of about 30 - 100 hours (depending on Uboat type), but that O2-supply is non-renewable! That means: It is not filled up when surfacing. Only the O2 in the air is restored to the normal value of 21% when surfacing. From now on the Player has to act economically regarding O2 supply, what adds a new strategical component to the game. The consumption of oxygen depends on the current crew number. The more crew, the more O2 is consumed. The consumption of O2 will be lowered if the crew is on silent-running routine. The net effect is that the U-boat can stay submerged longer. Repairing, flooding recovery and reloading of torpedoes will boost the O2 consumption."

From HSIEoptions help file!

So basically when batteries is at 10%,and CO2 start to consume that is non-renewable part that cannot be replaced?
Is this how was in reallity ?
And why when i have 7 knots submerged ,the periscope will not rise ?

[Rhodes]

Because in reallity you could not go above 3 knots with the periscope risen! :03:

[Wolfstriked]

So basically when batteries is at 10%,and CO2 start to consume that is non-renewable part that cannot be replaced?
Is this how was in reallity ?
And why when i have 7 knots submerged ,the periscope will not rise ?

Why are you mentioning batteries and oxygen.Batteries are your power and when they run out you lose ability to power the boat or even run the lights if severe enough.

Then their is 3 pieces to the air issues that a Uboat had.

First is the air in the boat when you close the hatch.The oxygen starts to get used up and you will notice CO saying "oxygen at 19%...18%".Then he will say oxygen used up starting to use the oxygen cannisters to replenish oxygen(the uboat also has scrubbers to remove the carbon dioxide).

The oxygen cannisters are not replenishable but the oxygen that is used up first is....all you have to do is open the hatch and in 2 minutes the boat is full for another few hours before the oxygen cannisters have to be used again.

Then their is a compressed air tank onboard a sub that is used to blow the ballast tanks.This tank is filled when you surface as a compressor slowly compresses the air in the tank.

Hope that helps instead of confuses.:88)

And BTW....where is Hsie??I hope he comes back to this as it adds in alot of good stuff that SH3 needs.

[BogdaNz]

Why are you mentioning batteries and oxygen.Batteries are your power and when they run out you lose ability to power the boat or even run the lights if severe enough.

Then their is 3 pieces to the air issues that a Uboat had.

First is the air in the boat when you close the hatch.The oxygen starts to get used up and you will notice CO saying "oxygen at 19%...18%".Then he will say oxygen used up starting to use the oxygen cannisters to replenish oxygen(the uboat also has scrubbers to remove the carbon dioxide).

The oxygen cannisters are not replenishable but the oxygen that is used up first is....all you have to do is open the hatch and in 2 minutes the boat is full for another few hours before the oxygen cannisters have to be used again.

Then their is a compressed air tank onboard a sub that is used to blow the ballast tanks.This tank is filled when you surface as a compressor slowly compresses the air in the tank.

Hope that helps instead of confuses.:88)

And BTW....where is Hsie??I hope he comes back to this as it adds in alot of good stuff that SH3 needs.
it's more confuse,how to open hatch ? i said when i am surface only batteries recharge the co2 never recharge .....

[SquareSteelBar]

...the co2 never recharge .....For what do you need CO²? In a sub you've to get rid of it as soon as possible.

[frau kaleun]

Maybe he means the compressed air? :hmmm:

[Wolfstriked]

it's more confuse,how to open hatch ? i said when i am surface only batteries recharge the co2 never recharge .....

Your confusing the CO2 gauge......it doesn't measure CO2 anymore.In the Hardcode patch the CO2 gauge shows how much stored oxygen you have.It doesn't replenish because you only have a set amount.

Try this....submerge long enough till your using stored oxygen then surface and watch the messages.At one point the CO will say something like oxygen in boat is replenished...after around 2 minutes real time.

[BogdaNz]

Your confusing the CO2 gauge......it doesn't measure CO2 anymore.In the Hardcode patch the CO2 gauge shows how much stored oxygen you have.It doesn't replenish because you only have a set amount.

Try this....submerge long enough till your using stored oxygen then surface and watch the messages.At one point the CO will say something like oxygen in boat is replenished...after around 2 minutes real time.
yes i mean CO2 gauge,when is consumed never recharge

[Wolfstriked]

yes i mean CO2 gauge,when is consumed never recharge

Thats actually the stored the oxygen supply that is unreplenishable.When its gone you head back in to port.

[BogdaNz]

Thats actually the stored the oxygen supply that is unreplenishable.When its gone you head back in to port.
head back in to port.And how does the port recharge oxygen suppy if you say that is unreplenishable ?

[Wolfstriked]

head back in to port.And how does the port recharge oxygen suppy if you say that is unreplenishable ?

New oxygen canisters placed on board.

[SquareSteelBar]

BTW the patch kit includes a new O² gauge.

[SquareSteelBar]

yes i mean CO2 gauge,when is consumed never rechargeCO² isn't consumed, it's breathed out by crew members. That causes an increase of CO² percentage in the air whilst the boat is submerged. This is very dangerous since a CO² percentage above 8 % is lethal within 30 - 60 min.

[chrisglen]

Hi does any one have a copy of sh3 exe that works with this mod as the one i have dosnt work,it is from a late dvd release

[Fish In The Water]

...a copy of sh3 exe that works with this mod...

IIRC, I read this mod is supposed to be starforce compatible now, but still no joy getting it to pass the tests. :hmmm:

[frau kaleun]

Hi does any one have a copy of sh3 exe that works with this mod as the one i have dosnt work,it is from a late dvd release

I don't think anyone will be able to provide you with a copy of the .exe, patched or otherwise, as distribution of the file itself wouldn't be kosher. However h.sie has been known to work with the .exe files that users already have to see if he can get them to patch successfully. If nothing else he's very helpful, if he doesn't show up here relatively soon you might try sending him a PM to see what he suggests.

[LiveGoat]

Finally got around to installing this and I have to say that, after years of having to manually drag numnutz to the bridge, I nearly shed a tear when I saw him already there waiting for me. My boy Bernard is now a man. :know:

Thank you so much for this mod. The continued improvement of this game after all these years leaves me in awe of the SH3 modding community. :salute:

[h.sie]

...very busy at the moment with real life issues, so please excuse me for not having answered for the last 2-3 weeks.

@those_who_cannot_patch: you get a PM soon

[Bigfin]

Hi there!!
First of all as this is my first post here I want to say hello and thank you to all the modders out there for the work they have done! This game still rocks after such a long time, it is simply awesome!

h.sie
What you have done is truly magnificent. Thank you!
So far I could test your beta patch version V15G2 with LSH5.1 and I stumbled upon something.
I don’t know if this is a faulty installation from my side, a bug, a feature or simply still on the to-do list. It is about the blurred periscope vision above 4 knots. It works in my game with the u-boat type VII but not with type IIa. Even at 5 knots or higher I have a very clear vision through the periscope.
I had not enough time to test other uboat types so far.

Has someone else made the same experience that the blurred periscope vision is not working with the IIa?

h.sie if you don’t have time to answer, no problem, real life is more important!

[h.sie]

@BigFin: Thanks, I could reproduce the reported problem and already know the reason: The speed-dependent blur effect is activated for depths below 11m. The Type IIa has Periscope depth of about 11m. Added -> Todo-List. Will be fixed in future releases.

[Wolfstriked]

Great to see you back,Hsie.:yeah:

[h.sie]

@Wolfstriked: :DL. I was here on a regulary basis but I had no time for writing...

[Wolfstriked]

Just in case you missed it.....u can reload on surface of stormy seas if you dive down to below 40m and then instantly rise again.

[h.sie]

@Wolfstriked: I cannot reproduce that. I guess you havn't the patched Sh3Sim.act from the Supplement folder on the right place in the install directory....

[Wolfstriked]

I just put the Supplement to V15G1 (JSGME) folder into the mods folder....is that wrong?

Also,I just reread the Supplement instructions and noticed it says to copy the patched EXE into the supplement mod folder.I put it into the default SH3 directory C:\Program Files\SilentHunterIII

So confused right now sorry.

[h.sie]

I explained inexact, sorry.

I meant: After enabling the Supplement Mod, the patched Sh3Sim.act should have replaced the original one....

[Wolfstriked]

Thanks Hsie,but still confused.....if its only on my part I will find out why and post here in case anyone else runs into it.

[Fish In The Water]

First of all as this is my first post here I want to say hello and thank you to all the modders out there for the work they have done!

Welcome aboard! :sunny:

Glad to hear you're enjoying them!

[Sokolov]

I have a russian version of SH3 from 1c, version of Sh3.exe file is 1.4.0.1.
I cant use Patch Sh3.bat. Whats version of Sh3.exe (patch for SH3) i need to run this mod?

[h.sie]

@SokoloW:

Have you 4GB patch applied?
Did you try V15G2? It supports 5 versions of sh3.exe.

If that still doesn't work, send me your sh3.exe via PM, and I'll look into that file

[Sokolov]

didnt applied that patch, used V15G2

[h.sie]

I need some help from people with historical knowledge, and I'd like to know the following:

1) In what areas and times did uboat wolfpack action occur? I want to work with 3 levels of probability: high probability, medium and low probability. I need to describe the probability dependence on location and time p(x,y,t) in a very simple way.

2) Did wolfpack attacks predominantly occur during the night? (I guess, but I don't know for sure).

I'm thankful to everybody who wants to help, but please be aware that only FACTS can help, but not assumptions.

h.sie

[Magic1111]

I need some help from people with historical knowledge, and I'd like to know the following:

1) In what areas and times did uboat wolfpack action occur? I want to work with 3 levels of probability: high probability, medium and low probability. I need to describe the probability dependence on location and time p(x,y,t) in a very simple way.

2) Did wolfpack attacks predominantly occur during the night? (I guess, but I don't know for sure).

I'm thankful to everybody who wants to help, but please be aware that only FACTS can help, but not assumptions.

h.sie

Hi !

Maybe this help you:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudeltaktik

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-Boot-Krieg#Erste_Phase:_Juni_1940_bis_Dezember_1940

Zweite Phase: Januar 1941 bis Dezember 1941
...
Ab dem Sommer 1941 wurde verstärkt auf die Rudeltaktik (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudeltaktik) gesetzt, wobei U-Boote als „Wolfsrudel“ Konvois orteten und koordiniert angriffen. Die oft zahlenmäßig unterlegenen Eskorten versuchten gewöhnlich, das erste geortete U-Boot vom Geleit abzudrängen, was den übrigen Rudelmitgliedern Gelegenheit zum Angriff auf die Handelsschiffe gab.
...

Best regards,
Magic

[Wolfstriked]

Found this while looking for periscope FOV taken from this webpage.It says that vibration of the scopes was not that bad even at 7kts but one Commanding Officer said he did experience some but at 7kts.I will turn off this in the options for my personal game.Just posting this in case some are interested.

\http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:0tTd1lI-1hsJ:www.uboatarchive.net/U-413INT.htm+uboat+periscope+fov&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com

Only the attack periscope can be used at Schnorkel depth in Type VII C boats as the forward air observation periscope is too short (12.2 m. = 40 ft.). The Commanding Officer of U 971 had no difficulty with periscope vibration at any speed or in any condition of sea, but there was an occasional slight shuddering with the movement of waves.

The Commanding Officer of U 672 had experienced periscope vibration sufficient to cause some blurring when at 7 knotson motors. The attack periscope has two powers - 1.5 and 6 - giving a field of view from +30° to -10°. The line of sight cannot be elevated. Standard practice was to sweep once on magnification 1.5, and then twice on magnification 6. The Schnorkel exhaust only produces a very small blind spot and sometimes none at all. The attack periscope can be raised 20 cm. higher than the top of the Schnorkel.

[h.sie]

@Magic111, Wolfstriked: Thanks for your input.

Wolfstriked, if I understood your post correctly, one of the commanders had problems with periscope vibrations at 7knots, the other didn't have problems at all. This directly shows how difficult it is to say what is realistic and what is not realistic and to program accordingly.

I would like to know what the other 500(?) UBoat commanders said about peri vibrations.

But I am flexible in this point: I could raise the speed where vibrations occur, but for that I need more reliable historical information. If there is no more historical data, we could make a poll/discussion in order to find a community consensus.

[h.sie]

After a long period of silence I want to give a first report about my current work together with LGN1:

We have not finished yet and there is still some program work to do, but I'm slightly optimistic now that we can have some kind of wolfpack action and BDU interaction in sh3 in the future. It will not be perfect - only a compromise is possible:

After having discovered a convoy, you have to send a contact report to BDU. Depending on the time period (late war, early war) and the location (atlantic, pacific) and some random factors, the Fix calculates a chance that other UBoats are available to help you.

If no boats are available, the BDU answers that you have to do the attack alone. Good luck!

If other boats are available, BDU orders to shadow the convoy and send contact reports EVERY HOUR (according to the UBoot commanders handbook, the contact holder has to send "Peilsignale" every hour).

Your contact reports no more contain the exact course of the convoy calculated by sh3 engine. Instead, YOU have to measure the convoys course by yourself and adjust it in a TDC Dial. That value is sent together with the contact report and (sometimes but not always) influences the chance, that the other boats will be able to find the convoy.

(According to my research, wolfpack actions were chaotic and not organized well. So I programmed a lot of randomness. Also, some BDU responses will get lost. Times in BDU orders will be inaccurate. Some of your course measurements will affect the game behaviour, others not).

The time between your contact reports influences the chance that the other boats find the convoy. If you only send every 3 hours, the chance raises that the other Subs won't find the convoy. If that situation occurs, the BDU orders to attack alone. Good luck!

If, under certain circumstances, the other Uboats managed to find the convoy, the BDU waits until environment conditions are well (dark night? Fog? I don't know exactly ATM). Then, he orders to attack in X hours. But this X also is an inaccurate time, so maybe the other Boats start to attack a little bit earlier. It is also possible, that nothing happens at all. Maybe the other Uboats have been sunk? So there will be a lot of uncertainness - as in real life.

Since I still wasn't able to reengineer the AI routines in sh3, we still use a -modified- version of Sergbutos AI-Subs. So I fear the convoy battle itself won't look very realistic IF you follow it with the external cam (what also isn't realistic), because the escorts (sometimes) shoot at the AI-Subs with their deck guns. So my suggestion is simple: Don't use the external cam - real kaleuns also didn't use it. But the AI-Subs will do their job:

* deflect/sink some convoy escorts so that you have a good chance for your own attack.

* sink some merchants so that it really looks like a battle when looking through the periscope.

* we are no more alone on the ocean.

I played a mission yesterday with an early alpha version, and as I saw all these burning and sinking merchants in the dark night, the searchlights and distress signal rockets, through the periscope, I remembered the film "Das Boot", and I must admit that I was satisfied for some seconds (knowing this is only a game and nobody really died).

h.sie

[fitzcarraldo]

After a long period of silence I want to give a first report about my current work together with LGN1:

We have not finished yet and there is still some program work to do, but I'm slightly optimistic now that we can have some kind of wolfpack action and BDU interaction in sh3 in the future. It will not be perfect - only a compromise is possible:

After having discovered a convoy, you have to send a contact report to BDU. Depending on the time period (late war, early war) and the location (atlantic, pacific) and some random factors, the Fix calculates a chance that other UBoats are available to help you.

If no boats are available, the BDU answers that you have to do the attack alone. Good luck!

If other boats are available, BDU orders to shadow the convoy and send contact reports EVERY HOUR (according to the UBoot commanders handbook, the contact holder has to send "Peilsignale" every hour).

Your contact reports no more contain the exact course of the convoy calculated by sh3 engine. Instead, YOU have to measure the convoys course by yourself and adjust it in a TDC Dial. That value is sent together with the contact report and (sometimes but not always) influences the chance, that the other boats will be able to find the convoy.

(According to my research, wolfpack actions were chaotic and not organized well. So I programmed a lot of randomness. Also, some BDU responses will get lost. Times in BDU orders will be inaccurate. Some of your course measurements will affect the game behaviour, others not).

The time between your contact reports influences the chance that the other boats find the convoy. If you only send every 3 hours, the chance raises that the other Subs won't find the convoy. If that situation occurs, the BDU orders to attack alone. Good luck!

If, under certain circumstances, the other Uboats managed to find the convoy, the BDU waits until environment conditions are well (dark night? Fog? I don't know exactly ATM). Then, he orders to attack in X hours. But this X also is an inaccurate time, so maybe the other Boats start to attack a little bit earlier. It is also possible, that nothing happens at all. Maybe the other Uboats have been sunk? So there will be a lot of uncertainness - as in real life.

Since I still wasn't able to reengineer the AI routines in sh3, we still use a -modified- version of Sergbutos AI-Subs. So I fear the convoy battle itself won't look very realistic IF you follow it with the external cam (what also isn't realistic), because the escorts (sometimes) shoot at the AI-Subs with their deck guns. So my suggestion is simple: Don't use the external cam - real kaleuns also didn't use it. But the AI-Subs will do their job:

* deflect/sink some convoy escorts so that you have a good chance for your own attack.

* sink some merchants so that it really looks like a battle when looking through the periscope.

* we are no more alone on the ocean.

I played a mission yesterday with an early alpha version, and as I saw all these burning and sinking merchants in the dark night, the searchlights and distress signal rockets, through the periscope, I remembered the film "Das Boot", and I must admit that I was satisfied for some seconds (knowing this is only a game and nobody really died).

h.sie

Looks fabulous. Waiting this great improvement.:yeah:

Best regards.

Fitzcarraldo :salute:

[SquareSteelBar]

...because the escorts (sometimes) shoot at the AI-Subs with their deck guns...Why do you think that isn't realistic?

[h.sie]

Oh, SSB, I totally forgot to mention that we also benefit from your work on the AI-Subs (as well as from other peoples help, suggestions........)

To answer your question: They predominantly shoot with their deckgun and sometimes fight them with DC. The opposite would be better I think.

[SquareSteelBar]

Oh, SSB, I totally forgot to mention that we also benefit from your work on the AI-Subs...Never mind...

[urfisch]

THIS sounds damn great h.sie!!! Really great...cant wait to test this nice and revolutionary mod.

:rock:

This again prooves: Wheres faith and passion, theres always a way to reach your targets.

Great. Thank you all who worked on this mod and spent your time for this.

:salute:

[SquareSteelBar]

...To answer your question: They predominantly shoot with their deckgun and sometimes fight them with DC. The opposite would be better I think.That's why the escorts see the invisible [for the player] gun hovering above the sub.
Although I think this is nearly realistic: they detect the risen periscope and start to shoot with their deck guns to destroy it whilst they try to approximate to the sub [if they ever manage that] and start ramming and depth charging.

[makman94]

the REAL challenge of sh3's moding is exactly here...right in this thread !!!:up:

H.Sie , you are a real 'gift' for this community ,your last efforts are more than the 'expected' ! and all these without having in your hands a tool that TDW will give you in short time (its called .dll injector and i believe-hope that in your magic hands will become very usefull).
congratulations to all involved to this thread (LGN1 is a real 'diamond' partner) ,
keep at it guys ...whenever you need a tester count me in !

hex editing...:rock:
all the best to future

[FIREWALL]

Hi h.sie :DL I have Version: V15G1 installed and works GREAT.

My problem is downloading your latest Version: V15G2 form your MediaFire site.

When I click "download" it wants me to install MediaFire toolbar Download Manager and Register.

Is there some kind of workaround I couldn't find or could it be uploaded somewhere else.

I really want this latest Version. :yep: The V15G1 I have installed now works Fantastic but, I want to keep up with latest Version to keep up with improvements.

Thank You whether you can do it or not.:salute:

[Magic1111]

Hi h.sie :DL I have Version: V15G1 installed and works GREAT.

My problem is downloading your latest Version: V15G2 form your MediaFire site.

When I click "download" it wants me to install MediaFire toolbar Download Manager and Register.

Is there some kind of workaround I couldn't find or could it be uploaded somewhere else.

I really want this latest Version. :yep: The V15G1 I have installed now works Fantastic but, I want to keep up with latest Version to keep up with improvements.

Thank You whether you can do it or not.:salute:

I´ve try this 2times and I become no message that I should install something...

But when you become these message to install something, simple ignore these message (shut the popped up window) and continue the download. Or shut MediaFire and click again on h.sie´s Mediafire Page.

You must not install someting to download the MODs !!!

Best regards,
Magic

[ETsd4]

...
We have not finished yet and there is still some program work to do, but I'm slightly optimistic now that we can have some kind of wolfpack action and BDU interaction in sh3 in the future....

Even if i ply SH5, these are fantastic news.

[Victor Schutze]

After a long period of silence I want to give a first report about my current work together with LGN1:

We have not finished yet and there is still some program work to do, but I'm slightly optimistic now that we can have some kind of wolfpack action and BDU interaction in sh3 in the future. It will not be perfect - only a compromise is possible:

After having discovered a convoy, you have to send a contact report to BDU. Depending on the time period (late war, early war) and the location (atlantic, pacific) and some random factors, the Fix calculates a chance that other UBoats are available to help you.

If no boats are available, the BDU answers that you have to do the attack alone. Good luck!

If other boats are available, BDU orders to shadow the convoy and send contact reports EVERY HOUR (according to the UBoot commanders handbook, the contact holder has to send "Peilsignale" every hour).

Your contact reports no more contain the exact course of the convoy calculated by sh3 engine. Instead, YOU have to measure the convoys course by yourself and adjust it in a TDC Dial. That value is sent together with the contact report and (sometimes but not always) influences the chance, that the other boats will be able to find the convoy.

(According to my research, wolfpack actions were chaotic and not organized well. So I programmed a lot of randomness. Also, some BDU responses will get lost. Times in BDU orders will be inaccurate. Some of your course measurements will affect the game behaviour, others not).

The time between your contact reports influences the chance that the other boats find the convoy. If you only send every 3 hours, the chance raises that the other Subs won't find the convoy. If that situation occurs, the BDU orders to attack alone. Good luck!

If, under certain circumstances, the other Uboats managed to find the convoy, the BDU waits until environment conditions are well (dark night? Fog? I don't know exactly ATM). Then, he orders to attack in X hours. But this X also is an inaccurate time, so maybe the other Boats start to attack a little bit earlier. It is also possible, that nothing happens at all. Maybe the other Uboats have been sunk? So there will be a lot of uncertainness - as in real life.

Since I still wasn't able to reengineer the AI routines in sh3, we still use a -modified- version of Sergbutos AI-Subs. So I fear the convoy battle itself won't look very realistic IF you follow it with the external cam (what also isn't realistic), because the escorts (sometimes) shoot at the AI-Subs with their deck guns. So my suggestion is simple: Don't use the external cam - real kaleuns also didn't use it. But the AI-Subs will do their job:

* deflect/sink some convoy escorts so that you have a good chance for your own attack.

* sink some merchants so that it really looks like a battle when looking through the periscope.

* we are no more alone on the ocean.

I played a mission yesterday with an early alpha version, and as I saw all these burning and sinking merchants in the dark night, the searchlights and distress signal rockets, through the periscope, I remembered the film "Das Boot", and I must admit that I was satisfied for some seconds (knowing this is only a game and nobody really died).

h.sie

I could not even imagine that this was possible with the SH3 game engine! :o
Congratulations hsie for this improvement in the simulation! :yeah:

[h.sie]

Oh, in the future I should think before writing. Now the expectations are rising and also the chance to be disappointed. Thus.....wait guys until having tested it before making compliments.

[Wolfstriked]

Your news is always excellent Hsie.:yeah:About the vibrations at speed,found this

"The periscope consisted of a long steel tube which extended out to about five meters from the housing. It had prisms and lenses at both ends, for which there was a switch that allowed the commander to toggle the magnification level ***8211; either 1x or 6x. Periscopes suffered from two main problems, the most important was vibration. When fully extended, the long unsupported tube created turbulence on a moving U-boat. At 6 knots, it caused excessive vibration which rendered it almost impossible to use. This was dampened by using an extension bracket to reduce the unsupported length and the pointed end was redesigned to minimize the forward hydrodynamic resistance. Nevertheless, vibrations still occurred, but to a much lesser degree"

================================================== ==========================
[And this one shows that subs still have this issue in the year 2006:o]
December 2006 http://www.navyleague.org/images/right_nav/join_now.gif (http://www.navyleague.org/membership/) http://www.navyleague.org/images/1px.gif http://www.navyleague.org/images/common/gray_hr.gif http://www.navyleague.org/images/1px.gif http://www.navyleague.org/images/1px.gif Greece Refuses Delivery Of First Type-214 Submarine
By AMI INTERNATIONAL INC.
The Greek Ministry of Defense and Hellenic Navy have refused to accept the first Katsonis-class (Type 214) submarine being built by Howaldtswerke Deutsche Werft (HDW) in Germany, citing a variety of concerns. Sources indicate that the Hellenic Navy has identified the following as among the continuing problems with the submarine, dubbed Papanikolis:


The submarine is reportedly highly unstable while surfaced;
The air-independent propulsion system has lower output power than specified; the unit must be shut down after several hours of sailing due to higher than normal operating temperatures;
Increased propeller cavitations;
Attack periscope vibrates at speeds greater than 3 knots;
Seawater leakage into hydraulic systems;
Problems with the proper function of the flank arrays.

[Fish In The Water]

We have not finished yet and there is still some program work to do, but I'm slightly optimistic now that we can have some kind of wolfpack action and BDU interaction in sh3 in the future.

Wonderful news! I wish you every success in pulling this off. :salute:

Oh, in the future I should think before writing. Now the expectations are rising and also the chance to be disappointed. Thus.....wait guys until having tested it before making compliments.No worries, even if it doesn't work out, the update was appreciated. Once again best of luck and thank you for the ongoing effort! :up:

[ETsd4]

2) Did wolfpack attacks predominantly occur during the night? (I guess, but I don't know for sure).

The classic Wolf-pack doctrine (creator K.Doenitz), teached since 1939:
Step 1: U-boats heading towards convoy until the first convoy-contact happens.
Step 2: U-boats changing course as same as the convoy-course and sailing in front of the convoy until twilight.
Step 3: At twilight u-boats changing course and approach towards convoy. At night the u-boats are admidst convoy and the attack starts.

http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww143/snDf1/Rudel.jpg

[h.sie]

@Makman: Thanks. You are right: LGN1 had the initial idea and made an important observation which is essential for this mod.

But I think there is no need for a DLL injector in sh3, since sh3.exe automatically loads all DLL's it can find if you give it an .act extension instead of DLL.

@Etsd4: Great information. So "our" BUI AI will also wait until it's dark outside. I cannot directly access the brightness information in-game, but I can access the sun position, which strongly affects brightness.

I can also access FOG, but I don't know wheather fog is good for an attack or bad. If I don't get any information about fog, I'll leave it out of consideration.

[h.sie]

@Wolfstriked: A lot of information with different speed values. The problem is to chose the right value for the Fix. As a quick solution (until i know the "correct" speed value) you could use the original CameraBehaviour.act instead of the patched one. Then, you don't have the blur effect at 4,5knots, but at 7 knots the peris are driven down automatically.

@FIREWALL: Don't install any crap from mediafire. Alternatively, try the FTP server from Plissken04. I'm sure someone can tell you the link and the password.

h.sie

[Robin40]

Oh, in the future I should think before writing. Now the expectations are rising and also the chance to be disappointed. Thus.....wait guys until having tested it before making compliments.

anyway a lot of compliments for your efforts...whatever will be the result:cool:

[Wolfstriked]

@Wolfstriked: A lot of information with different speed values. The problem is to chose the right value for the Fix. As a quick solution (until i know the "correct" speed value) you could use the original CameraBehaviour.act instead of the patched one. Then, you don't have the blur effect at 4,5knots, but at 7 knots the peris are driven down automatically.

@FIREWALL: Don't install any crap from mediafire. Alternatively, try the FTP server from Plissken04. I'm sure someone can tell you the link and the password.

h.sie

Its contradicting each time I find something new on net.:nope:I stopped looking after 3 finds all stating different things.I will do what you suggest for now.Just a question about the list of things you will change.Will you look into allowing us to refuel at friendly ports.Right now you can but the game thinks your ending mission and jumps the time ahead weeks to start new patrol.Maybe put it so that you can only end mission at your ending port assigned?Or even an option below where it says end patrol to refuel.

[h.sie]

@Wolfstriked: Sorry to say, but I'm not very much interested to solve that problem you mentioned, since I don't care if it's a new mission or an old one.

[h.sie]

If I remember correctly, there was a request (from Stiebler? Hitman?) to reduce ships speed during fog.

I think I can reduce the speed of all surface ships that are currently IN RENDER RANGE (approx. 35km) by a certain factor, say 50%, during fog.

Is that sufficient?

[ETsd4]

I think I can reduce the speed of all surface ships that are currently IN RENDER RANGE (approx. 35km) by a certain factor, say 50%, during fog.

Is that sufficient?

Prediction of AI-behavior (such as: slow-down = 50%) should be avoided.

Slow-down-factors should be
- actual visibility (convoy-ships slowed down only by thick fog)
- actual position (iceberg-danger, collision danger with foreign non-convoy-ships when near a international ship-lane)
- wave height and wind-speed


Maybe this (when its not too difficult to implement)...
When thick fog then choose a random slow-down-factor between (40...100)

[Robin40]

I'm running GWX V15G1 fine

I wanted to patch to V15G2

I renamed sh3.old to sh3.exe
I patched to V15G2

Unfortunately I get a CTD when loading a saved game

Maybe is it necessary to use the patched sh3.exe instead of sh3.old?

[h.sie]

Better not load a saved game from different versions.

Always use the original sh3.exe for patching

[fitzcarraldo]

I'm running GWX V15G1 fine

I wanted to patch to V15G2

I renamed sh3.old to sh3.exe
I patched to V15G2

Unfortunately I get a CTD when loading a saved game

Maybe is it necessary to use the patched sh3.exe instead of sh3.old?

If the game is saved with V15G1, it´s very possible with V15G2 you will have a CTD.

Regards.

Fitzcarraldo :salute:

[Robin40]

If the game is saved with V15G1, it´s very possible with V15G2 you will have a CTD.

Regards.

Fitzcarraldo :salute:

Better not load a saved game from different versions.

Always use the original sh3.exe for patching

thx mates

@h.sie
is sh3.old renamed = original sh3.exe? I think yes

[h.sie]

@Robin : Yes!

[Robin40]

Better not load a saved game from different versions.

Always use the original sh3.exe for patching

One more question:DL:cry:

Does this mean also that you cannot patch in port between missions?

[h.sie]

Not tested yet, but I recommend not to do so. The whole patch is in development and thus I cannot take care for backward compatibility and similar. If you want to be on the secure side, stick on a stable version like V15F3 and don't use a beta version.

[fitzcarraldo]

Not tested yet, but I recommend not to do so. The whole patch is in development and thus I cannot take care for backward compatibility and similar. If you want to be on the secure side, stick on a stable version like V15F3 and don't use a beta version.

I use the last beta version (V15G2), no problems at the moment. I tried all the new functions.

Best regards.

Fitzcarraldo :salute:

[Robin40]

I use the last beta version (V15G2), no problems at the moment. I tried all the new functions.

Best regards.

Fitzcarraldo :salute:

Did you start a new career with it?

[Magic1111]

I use the last beta version (V15G2), no problems at the moment. I tried all the new functions.

Best regards.

Fitzcarraldo :salute:

Me too, no problems !!!:yeah:

And I did not started a new career, but I enable the V15G2 .exe when I´m beeing in port, not during Mid-Patrol ! That´s important !

Best regards,
Magic

[FIREWALL]

Where is everybody gettting h.sie's V15G2 at ?

I tried at h.sie's own Mediafire website and have posted above a
"A No Go" It want's me to Join and, Download and install a Toolbar Download Manager.

Can you guys point me where you got yours ? Thx. :DL

[Fish In The Water]

I use the last beta version (V15G2), no problems at the moment.

Same here... So far it's a-okay without a hitch! :up:

PS. Thanks again for a great mod!

[HW3]

I got it here http://www.mediafire.com/hsie

No problems so far.

:salute:

[h.sie]

V15G2:

http://www.mediafire.com/?0ba8idl9bqqfyzf

[Magic1111]

Hi everyone. Is V15G2 ready to download and apply into the game?

Read one post above from yours....:o

And also first post on first page of this Thread ! :03:

Best regards,
Magic

[fitzcarraldo]

With V15G2 patch OK, now I want to try the Surrender Patch. What is the compatible version for V15G2?

Many thanks!

Fitzcarraldo :salute:

[frau kaleun]

With V15G2 patch OK, now I want to try the Surrender Patch. What is the compatible version for V15G2?


http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=186354

:DL

[SquareSteelBar]

Sometimes I ask myself: how do some kaleuns manage to detect enemy ships...? :88)

[Stiebler]

I have received fresh information from my friend, a former U-boat officer, concerning use of compressed oxygen.

This link contains the original information, and subsequently the new information:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=185993

Unfortunately, it appears that no one really knows the answer today, despite my friend's searches in Germany. However, he is clear that - under normal circumstances - it was depletion of U-boat batteries that caused the U-boats to surface, not depletion of oxygen.

Stiebler.

[Robin40]

I started a new career with V15G2

However I get a CTD...no problem with V15G1

My mod list

GWX 3 Wilhemshafen,St Naz,Schluese and xtra ships V6
GWX - Axis Mediterranean Aircraft Skins
GWX - Enhanced Damage Effects
GWX - Integrated Orders
GWX - Late War Sensors Snorkel Antennas
GWX - Main movie - 'Das Boot'
GWX - No Medals on Crew
GWX - Open Hatch Mod
LifeBoats&Debris_v2_A
WideScreen_SH3_V1
Loading Screens Mod 2
MFM-Interim-Beta
MFMBeta-EnglishNames
MFM-EnglishNames
SH3MoonMod
USS_LongIsland
OLC's Modified Searchlight Beams for GWX3
OKW_Funkmod_v_1_2
EAX_Sound_Sim_SH3
SH3_oggvorbis3
Hitler Speaks
M.E.P v3
M.E.P v3-Patch
MEP v3 VisualSensors for gwx3
SH-5 Water for GWX 3.0 V0.9 20 Km Atlantic campaign (default)
Damage_caused_by_fires_TheDarkWraith
Aces' Crew On Deck - Stand alone mod v1 GWX Version
GWX-SmartKeys
Rbs1_SH4_Effects_GWX_30_71
Rbs10-enhancedoilexplosion
Rbs2-Forsoundsandstarshells
O2-Gauges v2
Bad Weather Fix V1.1 (FORTE)
MFM-v3-US+UK_Skins19390901
MFM-v3-Neutral-Skins-1940
Supplement to V15G2(JSGME)

[fitzcarraldo]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=186354

:DL

Danke, Frau Kaleun :yeah:

I´m testing the V15G2 plus the Surrender Patch for V15G2, and all seems work fine.

Regards.

Fitzcarraldo :salute:

[h.sie]

@Robin: Long Mod-List. There is no other chance than to disable all MODS and see if there still occurs a CTD. Then, enable them one-by-one and see which MOD causes the problem. Also, sometimes a fresh sh3 install could help.

Last week, in a german forum there also were 2 reports of CTD in conjunction with my patches. But: In both cases, a corrupted sh3-installation was the reason (Frequently enabling / disabling a high number of MODs raises the chance for some old files remaining corrupting the sh3-installation). I have to re-install my sh3 every month because of that.

You could also send me a screenshot of the CTD - window which shows the contents of the CPU registers at CTD moment, which directly leads me to the code that is responsible for the CTD.

[Robin40]

@Robin: Long Mod-List. There is no other chance than to disable all MODS and see if there still occurs a CTD. Then, enable them one-by-one and see which MOD causes the problem. Also, sometimes a fresh sh3 install could help.

Last week, in a german forum there also were 2 reports of CTD in conjunction with my patches. But: In both cases, a corrupted sh3-installation was the reason (Frequently enabling / disabling a high number of MODs raises the chance for some old files remaining corrupting the sh3-installation). I have to re-install my sh3 every 2 months because of that.

You could also send me a screenshot of the CTD - window which shows the contents of the CPU registers at CTD moment, which directly leads me to the code that is responsible for the CTD.

thx mate....it is strange that V15G1 runs fine

[h.sie]

My tip for quick and clean installation.

1) Install clean Sh3

2) Install Supermod of your choice. Don't install any further MODs.

3) Compress the whole installation into one Archive (I recommend 7zip) and save that archive somewhere on your HDD.

Done.

For a clean re-install you simply need to delete the old install and extract the archive you've created in 3) above into the installation folder. That's it. That's what I do approx. every month, since I fiddle around a lot with installing / deinstalling MODS.

Note: Use this information on your own risk.

[fitzcarraldo]

My tip for quick and clean installation.

1) Install clean Sh3

2) Install Supermod of your choice. Don't install any further MODs.

3) Compress the whole installation into one Archive (I recommend 7zip) and save that archive somewhere on your HDD.

Done.

For a clean re-install you simply need to delete the old install and extract the archive you've created in 3) above into the installation folder. That's it. That's what I do approx. every month, since I fiddle around a lot with installing / deinstalling MODS.

Note: Use this information on your own risk.

Yes, and also you can have several installations with MultiSH3 (I have three installations: GWX, WAC and LSH3).

Regards.

Fitzcarraldo :salute:

[Fish In The Water]

My tip for quick and clean installation.

Great idea. Would save a lot of time and trouble... :up:

[flakmonkey]

Hmm, just sank hms rodney, proudly radioed in my sucess to bdu and got the message "dont sink neutral ships you amateur!". For some reason i always seem to get this msg after my first status report... Any ideas.

+ any chance of adding a keyboard command to switch to red light, others have tried but its my understanding that it was a hardcoded feature so no progress was ever made.

[h.sie]

@flakmonkey: You seem to have V15G1, right. That was a bug and has been fixed in V15G2.

It is not easy to add new commands. Currently very busy with other fixes, sorry.

[Capt. Morgan]

Just some feed back.

Enabling V15G2 on an existing career (while in port) ran fine, but resulted in CTD's when trying to load any save-games created after the patch had been applied.

Enabling V15G2 on a new career eliminated the CTD's on loading save-files.

Regarding the 4GB patch: I had originally posted here that using the NTCore (http://www.ntcore.com/4gb_patch.php) patch, rather than the 4GB flag in the option selector seemed to produced different results. After h.sie pointed out that both methods produce files that are indistinguishable from each other, I took a more careful look and found that my problem lay in a corrupted install, and not in any bug with the patch or selector.

I've edited out my original comments in order to eliminate any further confusion on this matter.

[h.sie]

@CaptainMorgan: Easy solution for your problem: Never load a savegame created with an older patch version. Taking care for backward-compatibility would hinder my progress and isn't really necessary, since it is reasonable for everyone to patch only before a new career.


Regarding 4GB Patch: Was the CTD reproducable? Or did it occur only once? I ask, because I made a small test:

1) I applied the 4GB-patch using Stieblers Options Selector. Saved the patched file as sh3a.exe.

2) I applied the 4GB-patch using the NTCore from your post. Saved the patched file as sh3b.exe.

Compared both files using > fc /b sh3a.exe sh3b.exe

Result: Both files were exactly the same. No difference. Everyone can reproduce this test.

Your post above suggests that Stieblers Options Selector does something wrong. The little test above proved that this cannot be applicable.

So there must be a different reason for the CTD.

If one does a certain action called ABC, and after that a CTD occurs, one cannot automatically conclude, that action ABC is the cause of the CTD. One can only make an assumption, and this assumption must be proven to be true by an empirical analysis.

I have even heard of people who have CTD on a fresh and completely unmodded sh3 install: See here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=187156

h.sie

[Stiebler]

My additional patch-kit for H.sie's V15G2 patch, containing the 'Surrender' and 'Smoke on Horizon' mods, has now been extended to include code for the CAM-ship.

For full details, read this post:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1736728&postcount=10

Stiebler.

[Capt. Morgan]

@h.sie

Thanks for your reply and help.

I have tried to enable the 4GB patch from Stieblers Option Selector several times - always without success. However, as you suggest, It is possible that I may have made other changes at the same time which effected the result.

I'm going to repeat your test...



1) I applied the 4GB-patch using Stieblers Options Selector. Saved the patched file as sh3a.exe.

2) I applied the 4GB-patch using the NTCore from your post. Saved the patched file as sh3b.exe.

Compared both files using > fc /b sh3a.exe sh3b.exe



...on a clean un-modded SH3 install, altering nothing but sh3.exe. and I'll report back. I won't be back at my game computer until tomorrow night, so this'll take a day or so.

Again, thanks

[Wolfstriked]

Stiebler,can it not be added straight to the hardcode patch and installed via the checklist?Either way thanks for your work:up:

[Stoli151]

@Capt.Morgan I also experience these save CTD. It also seems to come from using patch. I rarely experienced these before but now they are to the point the game is almost unplayable for me. Hopefully this can be solved by removing the 4gb patch as you have suggested. I will do some testing of my own. Highly interested in your results.

@hsie Do not think I am bashing your most excellent mod. It has raised my level of enjoyment of this game significantly. But something is wrong with my installation when I cannot load a single saved game without a CTD, when this occured very rarely before. However its probably something I have done wrong. Is it possible to have a mod conflict? I thought since your patch changed the exe. and is not actual file changes that this could not happen. I will try disabling all mods except your patch and go into a patrol and see what happens. I will also try Capt.Morgans suggestion, then report back.

[h.sie]

@Stoli et al: Reporting a CTD isn't bashing my work.

But I am careful with CTD reports in the meantime, because most of them have been caused by corrupted or highly-modded sh3 installations. Or because MODs configuration has been changed between save and reload of a game. There are also people who have CTD on fresh sh3 installs without my fixes and without any additional mods. I NEVER had any CTD while save/reload. Isn't that funny? On the other hand: Although I try to work as accurate as possible, I cannot guarrentee that my Fixes are 100% stable (no programmer can guarantee that!).

* So if you have a CTD, please try to reproduce and isolate it!

* Did you patch the exe or change any mods between saving and reloading a game?

It is important to ISOLATE the cause of the CTD, which can be a time-consuming work. I don't have CTDs during my tests, so I cannot help in this point. If I had lots of CTDs, I wouldn't have started to mod sh3, because it wouldn't be worth all my effort.

So I can only give an suggestion how to ISOLATE the cause of CTD as follows:

1) Make a backup of your current sh3-installation AND the "SH3"-folder in "Own Documents" or similar for later use.

2) Make a fresh installation of sh3 and your supermod WITHOUT ANY MODS and FIXES from me. Also, delete the SH3-folder in "Own Documents" or similar. Now, start sh3 and make a save & reload. If a CTD occurs, please send me the savegame. The CTD should be reproduceable.

3) Now, choose your most important MOD/FIX and activate it. BUT: Delete the SH3-folder before starting sh3. Make a save and reload. Does it work?

4) Choose the 2nd important MOD/FIX and activate it. But delete the SH3 folder before starting sh3. Make a save and reload.

5) Continue with the 3rd important MOD and so on and so on, until you have a CTD when saving/reloading.

IMPORTANT: NEVER load a savegame that has been created with a different MOD/Patch configuration. Also: Don't forget to delete the SH3-folder.

This procedure can help to find the reason for the CTD. I know, it will take a lot of time to make these tests, but sorry to say: I see no other solution, if you want to use my fixes.

h.sie

[Stiebler]

Concerning 4GByte fix for SH3:
This fix consists of just ONE byte changed, from 0x0F (original) to 0x2F (fix).

I have checked the code of the Options Selector, and there is no problem with it.
However, it is my understanding that the 4GByte fix should be used only with 64-bit computers. This is marked clearly on the Options Selector dialog box, and in its documentation. Some users here seem to be using it with 32-bit computers. (I believe that there is a 3-Gbyte fix for users of 32-bit computers, but I have no personal knowledge of it.)

Concerning CTDs from saved games:
This an old problem, made worse by the size and number of extra mods. The original devs saved an unexamined binary data stream from computer memory to disk, and then, when the user reloads a saved game, the same data stream is read back in again, also unexamined.

The scope for problems here is large, since new added mods may have corrupted part of the original binary data stream, or may have not been saved properly as part of the data stream (there is probably some limit on how much can be saved).

Almost all the problems with saved games seem to occur when one makes the original save:
1. Close to other spawned objects;
2. (Especially) after certain large convoys have spawned nearby, after which it does not matter when you save the game - it will still be corrupt when reloaded.

I think it is very unlikely that H.sie's changes to SH3 code will cause CTDs during reload of a saved game. In my experience, and having checked the original code for reloading saved games, the problem lies with extra units (ships/aircraft/land-objects) which were not part of the original game. For some reason, some of these units cause defective reloads from saved games. I believe that the problem may be caused by IDs (internal identities of the units), perhaps accidentally clashing with other identical IDs, but I cannot confirm this belief.

It is a fact that, the more mods with extra units you add to the game, the more likely it is that a CTD will occur when reloading a saved game. In this respect, particularly common dangers are:
1. Sergbuto's AI subs. It is very hard to reload a saved game after these AI U-boats have been spawned.
2. One of DTW's mods developed for SH5, concerning new depthcharges, and released for SH3 (now withdrawn for SH3).
3. Some of the ships of IABL's giant merchant fleet mod. No one seems to be sure which are the offenders.

There may be others too. Please note that I am naming the modders solely for identification of particular mods which have proved to be troublesome, and not because I intend any criticism. It is very hard to test any mod in all environments, and the cause of CTDs from saved games remains uncertain (despite my guess, above).

H.sie has stated that his planned wolf-pack mod will rely on Sergbuto's AI U-boats. My advice to all users is:
do not expect to reload games you have saved after an attack by wolf-packs.

Stiebler.

[h.sie]

@Stiebler: Thanks for helping.

Regarding sergbutos AI-Subs: I made save/reload tests with spawned AI-Subs and never had CTD. Anyway, LGN1 cloned the AI-Subs and gave them new and unique ID's to be on the secure side.

Before publishing our Wolfpack-Mod, we will of course also do save/reload - tests.

H.Sie

[SquareSteelBar]

...LGN1 cloned the AI-Subs and gave them new and unique ID's to be on the secure side...IIRC did that, too, long time ago with that sub on my installation - no CTD anymore.

[h.sie]

what does IIRC mean?

[SquareSteelBar]

If I remember correctly.... ;)

[Stoli151]

I didn't know the dark wraiths mods for sh5 converted to sh3 were causing some CTDs. I do have his DC mod enabled, so now that Stiebler has said that, it is most likely the culprit. I do have Win 7 64bit so the 4gb patch shouldn't be the cause then. I will do a clean install, no mods except patch and see what happens.

[Magic1111]

...

I do have his DC mod enabled

...



Yes, I can confirm that. The DC MOD from TDW for SH3 doesn´t work, with this MOD enabled I can´t load ANY savegame, no chance !

Without this MOD all works perfect !

Best regards,
Magic

[A6Intruder]

Yes, I can confirm that. The DC MOD from TDW for SH3 doesn´t work, with this MOD enabled I can´t load ANY savegame, no chance !

Without this MOD all works perfect !

Best regards,
Magic

I could`nt confirm this as it stands. TDW Mods "Ejecting Pilots and Ship-plane fire damage" working fine. Only " Water disturbance" causes CTD`s.
Best regards:yeah:

[Magic1111]

I could`nt confirm this as it stands. TDW Mods "Ejecting Pilots and Ship-plane fire damage" working fine. Only " Water disturbance" causes CTD`s.
Best regards:yeah:

That´s exactly what I mean !

I "quote" the DC MOD from Stoli151 and my Reply related only to the DC MOD from TDW, not the others. The other MODs from TDW for SH3 works fine for me too !

Best regards,
Magic

[h.sie]

Exactly 1 year ago I started this thread. It was a very interesting year.

[Myxale]

One year already??:eek:

Well, at least you can say it has been a busy one! :arrgh!:

[Capt. Morgan]

@Capt.Morgan I also experience these save CTD. It also seems to come from using patch. .... Hopefully this can be solved by removing the 4gb patch as you have suggested. I will do some testing of my own. Highly interested in your results.


Well Stoli, I'm sorry to say that I was wrong (and I've edited my original post so as not to mislead anyone further).

I had originally thought that how the 4GB patch was implemented (using the 4GB flag in the Options Selector V.S. applying the 4GB patch afterwards) made a difference. When h.sie pointed out (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1736555&postcount=1980) that both methods produce files that are indistinguishable from each, other I took a closer look, and can confirm that how the 4GB patch is implemented makes no difference at all.


... I am careful with CTD reports in the meantime, because most of them have been caused by corrupted or highly-modded sh3 installations. Or because MODs configuration has been changed between save and reload of a game. ...
h.sie

And I'm going to be more careful myself as this certainly seems to have been situation in my case.

I started testing on a completely new (stock) SHIII install. Finding no problems, I continued testing as I gradually added back all of my mods, resolving any conflicts as they arose - much as h.sie explains in the remainder of above post.

The end result is that I have GWX 3 with DD's interior, Manos Env. 2.1, Manos Gui, The St.Naz harbour mod, and a dozen others, all working smoothly with the Realism Patch (It did take a few hours to get it there though).

I'm beginning to think that this Realisim Patch may also be an acid test as to whether one has their install and mods properly sorted.

The only additional advice I can offer is to use JSGME's file snapshot feature. It's slow but it will tell you if an install is damaged - also - pay close attention when JSGME reports that files are being over-written. It is often necessary to create a hybrid file, combining the values set by several mods in order to get them to work together (much of this work will already be done for you if you use Aces Multimod Compatibility Fix (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=167862&highlight=ace%27s)).

Concerning 4GByte fix for SH3:
This fix consists of just ONE byte changed, from 0x0F (original) to 0x2F (fix).

I have checked the code of the Options Selector, and there is no problem with it.
However, it is my understanding that the 4GByte fix should be used only with 64-bit computers. This is marked clearly on the Options Selector dialog box, and in its documentation. Some users here seem to be using it with 32-bit computers....

My apologies for suggesting that there was a problem.

I have a 32-bit operating system (albeit on a 64-bit processor), and on my setup, found that SH3 would not load without the 4GB patch if I had the Merchant Fleet Mod enabled.

While It seemed to run fine, your comments about the 4GB patch - and later, the MFM (which is the only reason that I needed it) convinced me to drop both from my install. Thanks for the information.

[h.sie]

@Captain Morgan: Nice to know you got it all to work. Have fun. And thank you for correcting your older post.

[fitzcarraldo]

I have good results saving games with the "save" option, and not with "save and exit" option. With this option, I have some CTDs.

The MFM mod DON´T WORK without 4Gb Patch in a 64 bits OS.

Regards.

Fitzcarraldo :salute:

[Fish In The Water]

Exactly 1 year ago I started this thread. It was a very interesting year.

It's come a long way in it's first year... Lots of issues sorted, lots of people helped and tons of progress. Very good work indeed...

Congrats and happy thread anniversary! :woot:

[Stoli151]

It seems that TDW's DC mod was in fact the culprit. After doing clean install, reapplying patch and eventually reinstalling every other mod I have, I cannot get a CTD from a save. Looks like I can enjoy your work again H.Sie, without having to try to finish out a patrol between sessions(long nights). Yes, I loved this mod so much that even when I thought it was causing the save CTDs, I wouldn't uninstall it. Thanks everyone for helping me sort out my install.