Realism- and gameplay-related hardcode fixes for SH3.EXE [Archive] - Page 7

Wolfstriked

06-15-11, 12:19 PM

Hey guys

Why cant the silent running slow sinking be utilized with GWX?

If I am not mistaking it could with a quick change of the mass of the boat in each sub.sim file.Could easily be modded in for those that want it.

But the thing is from what I gather...I think that silent running actually might cause the boat to surface instead of submerge.Uboats have a negative tank that is rapidly filled with water as soon as dive is ordered and filled again very quickly the instant the boat is submerged.They did this for safety reason.It forces a "slight" bouyancy so that the sub will surface if you say lose your compressed air to fill the ballast with.:hmmm:actually though as long as you have some forward movement I think the boat is easily kept below the surface since slightly positive buoyancy is easily countered with slow speed when near the surface.

From the site I found info at....

""In diving quickly, the negative tank is important. By flooding this tank the submarine becomes negatively buoyant. This gets the boat under water quicker. Once submerged, though, the negative tank will be blown or pumped out, to restore neutral buoyancy. You want to be heavier than water as you dive, but you don't want to stay that way once you're under. If the negative tank remained full and all power was lost the boat would quickly sink below crush depth and kill everyone aboard.""

Wolfstriked

06-15-11, 12:27 PM

New post as I didn't want this to get lost in post below.Hsie,I think what would be good to fix is to remove the "radio damaged/radio repaired sir"...."hydroplanes damaged/hydroplanes repaired sir" etc.

With the realistic repair times mod you still see a ton of these messages and ruins the feel when things get fixed a second later.Since they have no effect on the game I think a removal of this info would benefit the patch.

Hitman

06-15-11, 12:34 PM

Wolfstriked I think you can disable them by deleting this entry in the menu.text file:

707=%s repaired, sir!

and leaving it blank.

h.sie

06-15-11, 12:41 PM

h.sie

06-15-11, 12:45 PM

Hey guys

Why cant the silent running slow sinking be utilized with GWX?

For a certain reason, Stiebler made the periscopes longer in NYGM in order to make the SR mod run properly (I don't remember details). GWX doesn't have these longer periscopes, so I assume that could cause problems.

But you can try it out. If you don't see any problems - there is no problem.

Wolfstriked

06-15-11, 01:24 PM

@Wolfstriked: Is equipment is repaired seconds later, there is something wrong. Or you have only insignificant damage. Normally, equipment should take hours now to be repaired (and also the message, that certain equipment has been repaired). Exception: Compartments - they still take minutes, because they are coupled inseparable with the flooding recovery.

Hsie,realistic repair works fine and takes hours to repair damage though I use NYGM(whats the difference between the two?).What I am talking about is the damage tied in with the individual compartments that takes seconds(minutes actually I exaggerate slightly:88)) to repair if a person is in that room.What Hitman advised would work and maybe you decide if it will be in next version...or...maybe you like the small damage messages that get repaired quickly.:O:

h.sie

06-15-11, 01:47 PM

@Wolf: If you use NYGM, Stiebler recommends NOT to use my Realistic Repair Times Fix, since NYGM has its own damage model.

Wolfstriked

06-15-11, 01:49 PM

@Wolf: If you use NYGM, Stiebler recommends NOT to use my Realistic Repair Times Fix, since NYGM has its own damage model.

Gotcha,yes I disabled it in the options.

KarlKoch

06-15-11, 02:04 PM

h.sie:

One think i always bothered with in SH3: Ships accelerating and changing course way too fast.
Is there maybe anything that can be done about that in the SH3.exe?
Is it worth trying at all? Its not like it happens every second ship you encounter, but everytime i try to shoot the stationary ship in the tutorial mission, i have to laugh.

Just an idea, i can live happily ever after if nothing will change.

h.sie

06-15-11, 03:25 PM

Wolfstriked

06-15-11, 03:54 PM

@KarlKoch: Ship acceleration is already on my growing todo list. In the meantime try Thomsens Ships. It's for GWX if I'm informed correctly and reduces ships acceleration and deceleration as well as turning radiuses.

Didn't he cut the engine horsepower in half.This causes the ships to not reach their top speeds in many cases.Then he upped the drag drastically which also causes reduction in their speed,especially turning.This then causes their turning radius to grow by large amount since ships speed determines turning speed.That said I think he pulled the ship acceleration tweak from his ships mod due to above reason.Could be wrong here.

What could be done though is instead of putting drag very high just drop the COG for each ship down very low.This way you can use super low drag settings to control the "horrible" excessive pitch/sway of the boats.Now you have a bit more control for turn radius since you have less forces slowing the boats down in a turn....basically its just the engine power now.Then just play with rudder drag for the turn speed you want.For ship top speed you can then test a ship on 0-wind ocean and see what speed it hits at flank speed setting.If it goes over or under its max speed you can drop or raise the horsepower to compensate.

Its a huge undertaking but all the ships could be made very realistic.:ping:

KarlKoch

06-15-11, 04:35 PM

@KarlKoch: Ship acceleration is already on my growing todo list. In the meantime try Thomsens Ships. It's for GWX if I'm informed correctly and reduces ships acceleration and deceleration as well as turning radiuses.
I know Thomsens Ships and i used them quite some time ago, but i remember there were incompatibilities with other mods i wanted to use. So i stopped using Thomsens Ships because it was the least downside in my opinion. But great to see its on your list. :)
I am happily reading every post from you in this thread.

Didn't he cut the engine horsepower in half.This causes the ships to not reach their top speeds in many cases.Then he upped the drag drastically which also causes reduction in their speed,especially turning.This then causes their turning radius to grow by large amount since ships speed determines turning speed.That said I think he pulled the ship acceleration tweak from his ships mod due to above reason.Could be wrong here.

What could be done though is instead of putting drag very high just drop the COG for each ship down very low.This way you can use super low drag settings to control the "horrible" excessive pitch/sway of the boats.Now you have a bit more control for turn radius since you have less forces slowing the boats down in a turn....basically its just the engine power now.Then just play with rudder drag for the turn speed you want.For ship top speed you can then test a ship on 0-wind ocean and see what speed it hits at flank speed setting.If it goes over or under its max speed you can drop or raise the horsepower to compensate.

Its a huge undertaking but all the ships could be made very realistic.:ping:
Problem with that approach is, that it will break every single formation of ships and every traffic in port, because the AI is not considering the changes in its decisions. If however, it is anyhow possible to change the acceleration and turnrate in the AI-routines, everything would still work. At least its what i think at the moment. I am afraid that i look at this way too easy. But i have no insight in any routines there.

Wolfstriked

06-15-11, 06:03 PM

Problem with that approach is, that it will break every single formation of ships and every traffic in port, because the AI is not considering the changes in its decisions. If however, it is anyhow possible to change the acceleration and turnrate in the AI-routines, everything would still work. At least its what i think at the moment. I am afraid that i look at this way too easy. But i have no insight in any routines there.

I see your point.

pelucho25

06-16-11, 01:44 PM

Hello I wonder if this patch can be upgraded from one version to another post. Example: V15F3 to V15G1. What you should do if we have an older version and want to update? It would be a bit annoying having to uninstall everything and start over. Are a god thank you very much.

h.sie

06-16-11, 02:26 PM

@pelucho:

An unhumble wish. For you it would take the same time (about 1-7 minutes) to update either from unmodded sh3.exe or from V15F to the last version V15G. For me, every Patch-Kit takes hours to configure. There are better ways for me to waste my time. So maybe another person wants to update from V15B to V15E1? Or from V15A to V15F2? A downgrade option would also be nice!!

I think I spider (Ich glaube, ich spinne!)

Magic1111

06-16-11, 02:35 PM

(Ich glaube, ich spinne!)

:haha:...ich auch, wenn ich solche "Wünsche" lese...:timeout:

Best regards,
Magic

andqui

06-16-11, 09:53 PM

What happens if the .bat says my sh3.exe isn't compatible? Am I stuck or is there anything I can do?

h.sie

06-17-11, 02:16 AM

@andi: send me your sh3.exe, I'll look into it. (upload it to somewhere and send me the link via PM - not public)

Stoli151

06-17-11, 11:09 AM

@pelucho: If you want to upgrade from one version to the next without uninstalling everything, it is simple. When you patched the exe the first time it made a file called sh3.old hopefully you kept this. Rename that file sh3.exe then patch that exe with the new version and continue with installation as normal. Remember to always keep your sh3.old and you should always be able to upgrade to a new version easily. Theoretically, you could downgrade as well.

Wolfstriked

06-17-11, 05:05 PM

My scopes are not lowering when over 7kts.At first they were but now nothing and the vibration/blurring goes away when I hit 7kts.Anyone else notice this?

h.sie

06-18-11, 03:58 AM

@Wolfs: Since you post here I assume you eliminated own errors. So upload your patched sh3.exe and send me the link via PM. I'll look into it.

urfisch

06-18-11, 05:38 AM

hey h.sie.

i have not read the whole 100 pages in this thread. but what can you say is possible by digging into the sh3.exe file (or other controlling files) and change things in there?

tdw spoke of the possibility to address new shaders (for the water, e.g.)?! what about the chance to change elemental things of the game?

h.sie

06-18-11, 06:35 AM

Hi Urfish,

As you can see in the 1st post of this thread, it indeed was possible for me to change (and even add) numerous things in the sh3.exe. But that are mainly gameplay-relevant (one-dimensional) issues, e.g. make repair-times longer or to restrict snorkel-speed in dependency on windspeed and so on. That is possible (for someone with patience, assembler skills and knowledge of x86 CPU architecture), since one "only" needs to change the content of one variable (e.g. speed) in dependency of another variable (e.g. Windspeed).

Unfortunately, I have no knowledge of graphics / shader programming and I must admit I wouldn't even know where to start to mod graphical things in assembler level without SDK. I assume that it will become very complex. I made one graphical fix (automatically move the watch officer to the bridge). That was my hardest and most time-consuming fix and the resulting code was very long).

Besides that, in my opinion, the graphics in sh3 is satisfying - for me. Why add transparent water of sh4? Is the water of the atlantic transparent? One year ago I took a ferry to Sylt. The water was dark. I couldn't even see 1 meter deep.

Assumption: The 1st step to import sh4/sh5 graphics into sh3 would be to locate the code of/for the shaders - in which files does it reside. Then, one has to change the jump-tables of the sh3.exe import section, so that function calls to graphics routines now find the sh4 code instead the sh3 code. But that will only work if these functions are compatible, that means, they use the same number of input- and output variables, otherwise you will get a problem with the stack -> CTD. I am pessimistic!!

Greetings.
h.sie

Wolfstriked

06-18-11, 08:49 AM

Thanks Hsie,but it is back to working for now.Maybe it was a change I did and reverted back.:hmmm:

urfisch

06-18-11, 10:50 AM

thanks a lot, h.sie!

yes, i already guessed it might be a very complex thing. but i am totally split inside. i love sh3, as i love the overall gameplay a lot! but actually some graphics really started to bother me, every time i play. first of all: the crappy crew models! they simply look too odd and i just cant see them any more!

:shifty:

and what i miss second is the interaction with wolfpacks, as we had it in AOTD. this was immersive! best gameplay ever. and in ww2 the wolfpack tactics where the key of german uboat warfare.

so would be great to add these things...doesnt it?

h.sie

06-18-11, 10:58 AM

@urfisch:

regarding graphics: I guess I cannot help (except from answering common questions).

regarding wolfpack interaction: that's the most important point on my todo list. I fear a little bit to touch it (after my current rest from modding), since I fear to fail.

urfisch

06-18-11, 02:21 PM

regarding crew: i thought maybe we can address new models somehow...? and use the ones from sh4 or sh5? is a try too hard to do? because simply changing the models causes the well known "destroyed model" ingame.

wolfpacks: as to my idea we need to get the ai boats let run routines. routines the ai uses for destroyers: an "search and destroy routine", so they attack and evade. but they also need to be able to dive and surface. there are some ai-boats already. dont know, who created them. but they exist and are functional. they attack with deckgun, but never fired torpedos. there the project got stuck.

an interaction with them would be the greatest thing. i dont know, how to get the ai calling a certain code fragment, that makes you receive a radio message when they sight an enemy. otherwise round would be great to get boats to your position, if you encounter a convoi.

maybe somewhere we find a hook in these ai-scripts, that lets us make them "send" a message - as there must be some triggers, which makes them call different tactics and routines. so if these "triggers" are existing, maybe we can use them for different "calls" of action/scripts.

tdw created some kind of dll injection code. i dont know, how helpful it might be for this complex job.

but i would help you, if you like to. although i am not experienced at all with this. i only know how the fx works in game and how to clone and assign different particle controllers, etc. so i know a bit about the coding structure of sh3 files.

FIREWALL

06-18-11, 04:09 PM

Do's this mod fix require the new SH3 version without StarForce and already patched to 1.4 ?

Just haveing the WO on the bridge witout haveing to drag him there everytime I surface is alone, GREAT. :up:

Madox58

06-18-11, 04:27 PM

AI Subs are nothing more then Surface Ships and follow the rules of Surface Ships.
Look at the .sim files of those Units to fully understand how they work.

Only one test Unit was ever created that did infact dive and resurface to my knowledge.
It was however still a Surface Unit as far as SH3 cares.
And this did introduce some problems never fully followed up on.

Anvart

06-18-11, 05:08 PM

Yes.
The game does not contain code for AI of non-human submarines... therefore modders uses clear cmdr_AIShip or combined with...

FIREWALL

06-18-11, 08:52 PM

MCHALO12

06-19-11, 01:13 AM

Hi h.sie,

I wanted to thank you for your wonderful mod! This is clearly one of the greatest additions to SH3 that were ever made! Please keep up your incredible work, we all hope to get more realism fixes!

Thank you h.sie,

Best regards, MCHALO12.

h.sie

06-19-11, 04:38 AM

@urfish: sorry to say that I will concentrate on gameplay issues. I never noticed that the sh3 crew looks ugly. so please don't be angry if I won't spend my time for changing the crew. Additionally: I have too few knowledge in crew model, animation, 3D and so on. If I start again to mod, then I'll probably focus on the wolfpack problem even if I am not optimistic to find a good solution. Thank you very much for your offer regarding help. There are indeed many areas of sh3 where I have only a few or even no knowledge (graphics, sound, FX), and thus it's good to know someone with more experience/knowledge. so maybe I need your help in the future.

@FIREWALL: Look at the 1st post of this thread. There you see all changes. One of them automatically moves the Watch-Officer to the bridge when surfacing. My most unimportant fix, but people seem to like it most. Funny.

@privateer: Thank you. I was aware that Sergbutos ships are surface ships, because the destroyers fire guns at them instead of thowing DC's. It's a matter of taste. In my opinion they are sufficient to irritate the convoy escorts, other people don't like them. I will try 2 steps: 1) try to teleport a Sergbuto_Type_7a_AI_sub to the convoy, after a contact report has been sent. If I succeed, we already have little player interaction. 2) I'll try to change the AI into a real submarine AI, but I'm VERY pessimistic to be successful in this point.

@MCHALO: Thank you. Nice to know you like it. When will we expect the first version of your "interior with crew" mod :D ?

h.sie

FIREWALL

06-19-11, 10:40 AM

h.sie

06-19-11, 10:52 AM

@FIREWALL: V15G1 should be compatible to both. But the 4GB patch may not be appiled prior to patching. This must be done after patching , using the OptionsSelector.exe contained in the patch kit.

h.sie

06-21-11, 01:25 AM

h.sie

06-21-11, 05:15 AM

@Hitman: Someone reduced the max. amount of PMs in my mail folder from 200 (?) to only 25. That makes communication with Stiebler and users of my patches harder, since I now have to delete mails very often. Was that intended?

SquareSteelBar

06-21-11, 05:17 AM

...Someone reduced the max. amount of PMs in my mail folder from 200 (?) to only 25...Not only yours... :wah:

__________________________________________________ __________

Edit 12:20 CET:
http://img863.imageshack.us/img863/5647/000d.jpg
__________________________________________________ __________

Edit 12:25 CET:
http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/7958/001xvp.jpg
__________________________________________________ __________

Edit 12:31 CET:
http://img863.imageshack.us/img863/5647/000d.jpg

What's going on here?

mefaba

06-21-11, 05:27 AM

Amazing work! Many thanks to h.sie and all other people who shared their ideas to make it come true.

I really liked all the new realism settings. Especially the pseudo-dock function is great.

I hope in future releases pseudo-docking will be possible for German supply ships other than u-tankers.

Magic1111

06-21-11, 05:42 AM

Not only yours... :wah:

__________________________________________________ __________

Edit 12:20 CET:
http://img863.imageshack.us/img863/5647/000d.jpg
__________________________________________________ __________

Edit 12:25 CET:
http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/7958/001xvp.jpg
__________________________________________________ __________

Edit 12:31 CET:
http://img863.imageshack.us/img863/5647/000d.jpg

What's going on here?

Same here, and my Signature doesn´t work anymore...:nope::nope::nope::down:

h.sie

06-21-11, 05:46 AM

@mefaba: That's already possible. Just rename all surface U-Tankers e.g. "Brake" into "U-Brake".

Cool, no banners anymore! They contain quasi no information.

SquareSteelBar

06-21-11, 05:46 AM

Same here, and my Signature doesn´t work anymore...Maybe Uncle Neal does some maintenances... :hmmm:

Magic1111

06-21-11, 05:48 AM

Maybe Uncle Neal does some maintenances... :hmmm:

...yes, or maybe a Hacker-Attack...:timeout: :haha:

SquareSteelBar

06-21-11, 05:51 AM

...yes, or maybe a Hacker-Attack...:timeout: :haha:Alle Mann auf Gefechtsstationen!

__________________________________________________ __________

Update 2:20 pm CET:

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/2977/000fd.jpg

Sigs are back

__________________________________________________ __________

Update 2:26 pm CET:

http://img863.imageshack.us/img863/5647/000d.jpg

Sigs are gone again

:har:

mefaba

06-21-11, 08:14 AM

@mefaba: That's already possible. Just rename all surface U-Tankers e.g. "Brake" into "U-Brake".

Where can I rename them? Please tell me the folder.

Thanks in advance.

Fatih

edit: Nevermind. Found it!

Robin40

06-21-11, 12:20 PM

Where can I rename them? Please tell me the folder.

Thanks in advance.

Fatih

edit: Nevermind. Found it!

well...which folder?

Wolfstriked

06-21-11, 12:22 PM

Hsie,some questions.When the scopes are vibrating from high speed and you go to F12 view its blurry also.Is that normal and if so can it be fixed?Also the blur of scopes is very bad,do you think a slight reduction so you can still sorta navigate but not take correct readings would be better:hmmm:?

About the dive to 30m when its stormy and one wants to load torpedoes.Is 30m really how low they went?Anywhere this is documented?I was in 25m deep water last night and had to stalk a lone and vulnerable freighter till the weather got better and it took a day.:damn:I just think 90feet is way way deep.If I go swimming and go under water even with waves rolling above me like crazy I feel stable.Yes the undertow pulls you out but that doesn't happen in vast ocean.

h.sie

06-21-11, 12:35 PM

@Wolfstriked:

F12: You surely have MaGUI or similar enabled. That unfortunately has blur-effect for F12. Must be disabled for F12.

Or: Just totally disable blur for periscopes by deleting the modified Camerabehavior.act. Blur cannot be reduced. Just switched on or off.

30m: I chose the value without historical data. We discussed that earlier and if I remember right, someone (with good knowlegde) said something about 30m. But this can be changed if we find historical facts. no problem.

Quick solution until better facts are known: Disable internal reload fix.

Wolfstriked

06-21-11, 12:50 PM

Great,thanks and yep I am a MAGUI fan.:salute:

I will keep both and just do my movie viewing when I am not submerged.And I have searched for a quick 5 minutes last night about the dive depth for stability and found nothing.I'll keep searching.

Hitman

06-21-11, 01:52 PM

About the dive to 30m when its stormy and one wants to load torpedoes.Is 30m really how low they went?Anywhere this is documented?I was in 25m deep water last night and had to stalk a lone and vulnerable freighter till the weather got better and it took a day.:damn:I just think 90feet is way way deep.If I go swimming and go under water even with waves rolling above me like crazy I feel stable.Yes the undertow pulls you out but that doesn't happen in vast ocean. There is no magic depth from where you suddenly can reload torpedoes whereas one meter higher you couldn't. Kaleuns reported boat movement with heavy weather that could be felt even at 50 metres, so as always with SH a compromise had to be reached. I feel that 30 metres is a reasonable one, but I'm ready to back up better informed opinions :up:

Wolfstriked

06-21-11, 04:42 PM

There is no magic depth from where you suddenly can reload torpedoes whereas one meter higher you couldn't. Kaleuns reported boat movement with heavy weather that could be felt even at 50 metres, so as always with SH a compromise had to be reached. I feel that 30 metres is a reasonable one, but I'm ready to back up better informed opinions :up:

I agree with you Hitman.30m is a good compromise.I was just pissed that I was at 25m depth to keel.:rotfl2:Can't risk laying sub on floor.

h.sie

06-21-11, 05:57 PM

Wolfstriked: I made the fixes to make your life harder - not easier!

Wolfstriked

06-21-11, 06:08 PM

:timeout:I love realism tweaks and I hope to not come across as complaining about them.:O:

mefaba

06-22-11, 01:35 AM

well...which folder?

In data/campaigns folder there's file called campaign_scr.

Open it with Notepad. All units are in it. Search "navalbase" and you will find every supply ship one by one. Just put a "U-" infront of their name. For example: Python to U-Python.

That's it.

h.sie

06-22-11, 02:06 AM

Are you sure all "NavalBase" units are surface U-Tankers? I don't know

mefaba

06-22-11, 07:13 AM

Are you sure all "NavalBase" units are surface U-Tankers? I don't know

In campaign_scr, the following units are indicated as "navalbase":

Python, Belchen Supply Ship, U-459, Corrientes, Thalia, Bessel, Max Albrect, U-461, U-488, U-460, U-463, Chralotte Schliemann.

No other unit in that file is indicated as "navalbase". AFAIK, all of these are historic German supply ships and u-tankers.

All of them have 2 entries.

One of them is like that:

[Unit 225]
Name=Python
Class=NavalBase
Type=407
Origin=German
Side=2
Commander=0
CargoExt=-1
CargoInt=-1
CfgDate=19380101
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=false
DockedShip=false
GameEntryDate=19410501
GameEntryTime=1200
GameExitDate=19411201
GameExitTime=1200
EvolveFromEntryDate=false
Long=-439616.000000
Lat=-3395210.000000
Height=-200.000000
Heading=278.944000
Speed=0.000000
CrewRating=3
DelayMin=0
ReportPosMin=0
ReportPosProbability=0
SecondsUntilReport=-60.000000
RandStartRadius=0.000000
NextWP=0

[Unit 225.Waypoint 1]
Speed=0.000000
Radius=0.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=-441141.000000
Lat=-3394970.000000
Height=-200.000000
The other one is like that:

[Unit 226]
Name=Python
Class=KGN
Type=102
Origin=German
Side=2
Commander=0
CargoExt=0
CargoInt=2
CfgDate=19380101
DeleteOnLastWaypoint=false
DockedShip=false
GameEntryDate=19410501
GameEntryTime=1200
GameExitDate=19411201
GameExitTime=1200
EvolveFromEntryDate=true
Long=-439535.000000
Lat=-3394787.000000
Height=0.000000
Heading=279.246094
Speed=0.000000
CrewRating=3
DelayMin=0
ReportPosMin=0
ReportPosProbability=0
SecondsUntilReport=-60.000000
RandStartRadius=0.000000
NextWP=0

[Unit 226.Waypoint 1]
Speed=0.000000
Radius=0.000000
Loop=-1
LoopProbability=100
Long=-441083.000000
Lat=-3394535.000000
Height=0.000000I only edited the entries that say "navalbase" as unit class. I did not touch the other unit name.

I haven't docked any of those ships yet. And I did this according to your suggestion for changing the supply ship name by adding a "u-" in front of its name, so that your pseudo dock feature will work in those surface supply ships just like u-tankers.

I don't know if it will work. Right now I am at work and I can't try it but I will check when I am back home.

h.sie

06-22-11, 07:19 AM

@Mefaba: Would be interesting to try it out. But use "U-" instead of "u-". Case-sensitive!!!

h.sie

mefaba

06-22-11, 07:31 AM

@Mefaba: Would be interesting to try it out. But use "U-" instead of "u-". Case-sensitive!!!

h.sie

Yes, of course. I used "U-".

I will tell you the results this evening. (GMT+3)

SquareSteelBar

06-22-11, 07:58 AM

Are you sure all "NavalBase" units are surface U-Tankers? I don't knowThe U-Tankers are the only ones in Campaign_SCR.mis since they're 'fake naval bases'. Usually real naval bases are scripted in Campaign_LND.mis.

Stiebler

06-22-11, 08:59 AM

I have now a completely coded and functioning system for the U-boat crew to abandon ship. This method is compatible with H.sie’s V15G1 Beta test patch, and I shall supply a suitable extra patch once I have worked out the correct procedure - and after addressing other issues, see below.

H.sie has queried why a ‘Surrender’ option is necessary, and a brief explanation is given below. The real issue is for those serious users who play ‘Dead-Is-Dead’.

It is desirable to introduce the option of ‘surrender’ of the U-boat when conditions are sufficiently severe. This was a feature of the old Aces of the Deep, which gave a small chance of being rescued by U-boat and returned to active service. SH3 lacks this feature, and other players in the past have requested the option as a mod. Currently, whenever the U-boat is sunk in SH3, all the crew is killed, and players who play ‘Dead-Is-Dead’ might as well remain submerged and take their chances when a real crew would certainly surface in order to try to save their lives. So this feature will encourage the ‘Dead-Is-Dead’ players to surface in the hope of being ‘rescued by another U-boat’, and it will be nice to save some or all of the crew.

My ‘Surrender Mod’ now provides a method of abandoning the U-boat. The code is long and complex, and requires the application of rigid rules:
1. You must signal that you are abandoning your U-boat. This is done by sending a standard radio status report, for which (as usual) the U-boat must be on the surface. The U-boat must have already a hull integrity of less than 20% (Use H.sie’s ‘Hull Integrity’ mod, or use SH3Commander, to permit hull damage to be read in screen F7.) Your status message will now inform BdU that you are abandoning your U-boat.
2. You must now scuttle (self-sink) your U-boat in the same day. If you sent your emergency message at 00:05 hours on (say) 10th August, you have 23 hours and 55 minutes in which to scuttle. If you sent your emergency message at 23:55 on 10th August, you have just 5 minutes in which to scuttle. You can send emergency messages as often as you like, but the original SH3 code makes responses from BdU slower and slower, so this idea is definitely not recommended. Send your emergency message only when you intend to abandon ship. Your emergency message will be automatically cancelled if you have not scuttled in the same day as you sent the message.
3. The way to scuttle your U-boat is simply to dive deep, when the pressure hull will quickly break (since hull integrity already less than 20%). Note that any method that would normally result in a message of “U-Boat destroyed by pressure/collision/flooding” will be accepted as scuttling.
4. You will then see the black screen of death, but with some differences:
a) The message “U-Boat destroyed by pressure/collision/flooding” will have been replaced by ‘”U-boat abandoned”.
b) The message “Mission Summary” (in large orange characters) will have been replaced by “Saved by Allies” (80% chance) or “Saved by U-boat” (20% chance).
c) The message showing starting crew and ending crew (originally all dead) will have been changed to give a random percentage of living crew, with the remainder all dead. For this purpose, earlier wounded crew are counted as living crew, while earlier dead crew are counted (obviously) as dead crew.
5. For Dead-Is-Dead players:
If you are rescued by the Allies, or killed because you did not succeed to send a message to abandon ship, then your career ends.
If the final message says that you were rescued by a U-boat, then you may legitimately start a new career, with a new U-boat, starting after you were rescued.

LIMITATIONS:
1. After you are sunk, I would advise very strongly that you close SH3, then restart it in order to reset some internal variables. You will probably want a pause to think anyway.
2. Alternatively, if you choose to restart from an earlier saved game (because you don’t like to be sunk), send a radio status message as soon as you can, even if you have no hull damage. This will reinstall changed variables.
3. After you have closed the ‘Black Screen of Death’, you will see another screen ‘Career Summary’, which shows that all your crew are dead. Technically this is easy to change. However, it requires a lot of extra code, and I am reluctant to waste game memory on a screen which no one reads anyway. The only time I saw this problem was when testing the ‘Surrender’ program and watching for side effects. No one really reads the few lines of the ‘Career Summary’ after being sunk, do they? (You can read a much better summary in the main menu system.)
4. If, after sending your ‘Abandon U-boat’ message, the enemy then sinks you, even on the surface, your crew will NOT be rescued. You will get the usual message “U-Boat destroyed.” on the black screen of death. This should be taken to mean that your U-boat exploded, or sank suddenly, after being hit by shells or bombs from ships or aircraft. In order to survive, you *must* sink the U-boat yourself! For Dead-Is-Dead players: your career has ended after the “U-Boat destroyed.” message. No new career is permitted.
5. It is impossible to construct long messages about abandoning ship, owing to considerations of memory overflow. In the dark world of the Black Screen of Death, console messages cannot be seen and the dialog box system causes CTDs. Only short messages can be permitted, to replace those on the Black Screen.

ISSUES.
Feedback invited:

1. Since there is a one-day limit on the effect of the U-boat Surrender, there is an argument that the Radio Status report should accept an “Abandoning U-boat” message when hull integrity is much higher than 20%, for example 50%. If you are forced to surface in the middle of a convoy with damage, it is difficult to judge when to send that critical last message ‘Abandon U-boat’ if the limit is only 20%, as destroyers shell the U-boat.
2. Should the crew be allowed to abandon ship after being sunk on the surface by ship or aircraft? (Message is “U-Boat destroyed.”). I think not, as explained above, but others might think differently.

Stiebler.

Hitman

06-22-11, 09:16 AM

Stiebler,

I would strongly advice to allow scuttling the uboat even without any hull damage, as there are situations where you realistically would have done so even if not much damaged or not damaged at all. For example:

1) If missing a rendezvous with a tanker or uboat and running out of fuel in an enemy-controlled area

2) If getting damage that would not allow you to submerge or even return to base, in enemy-controlled areas

3) If cornered without escape and preferring to scuttle the boat in a deep water area, so that the enemy can't rescue it.

In general, the decission to abandon and scuttle UBoat belonged to the commander, and he needed to evaluate the circumstances and could decide so even if with little or no damage. Of course, he would need to later provide a clear explanation of why he decided to scuttle the uboat, but if his reasons were accepted he would get another command. Since this last aspect is impossible to code, I would simply leave the scuttle option entirely open, even if with no damage at all -as it was in real life- and let the player decide wether he deserves a new uboat or not.

JeromeHeretic

06-22-11, 09:52 AM

If you are out of fuel, you can dive deep and wait at moment, when pressure of water breaks pressure hull under 20%, after that you blow balast, send message and dive submarine to death...

But what to do in places with shallow waters? For example the tin part about Dover - typical place full of aircraft and destroyers, in later years of war is almost impossible move through Dover inlet alive, but i think, there is not enough water to crash submarine although hull is destroyed under 20 %.

Stiebler, what to do in this case? If i will run on flank speed and hit bottom again and again, until sub is completely destroyed, will this work OK?

BTW: Good work, man :-) And as you say - no one reads this carrier summary.

Volk2

06-22-11, 12:56 PM

If you are out of fuel, you can dive deep and wait at moment, when pressure of water breaks pressure hull under 20%, after that you blow balast, send message and dive submarine to death...

Why complicate so much? I agree with Hitman - please leave the decission to the commander, even if the hull is on 90%. And is the scuttle necessary (I understand that there can be a technical reason for this)?

mefaba

06-22-11, 04:59 PM

@Mefaba: Would be interesting to try it out. But use "U-" instead of "u-". Case-sensitive!!!

h.sie

Finally tried the pseudo dock feature on surface supply ships.

I just resupplied from Bessel. But no torpedo was loaded. Then went on to Thalia. Again refueled but no torpedo reload. 4 internal bow reserve tubes were emptied intentionally. But didn't get any torpedoes.

Also I have a strange problem. When I send a patrol report, I get a blank message from BdU. Like that:

http://i.imgur.com/zfeC9l.jpg (http://imgur.com/zfeC9)

I did everything as told in the readme file. Copied and pasted Messages for h.sie sh3.exe patch in en.menu.txt but I don't get any messages from BdU. Also when I get a fog warning from the watch officer, nothing is written below. Also I can't see other warning messages that come with this patch.

What causes this?

NGT

06-22-11, 05:03 PM

Stiebler,

I would strongly advice to allow scuttling the uboat even without any hull damage, as there are situations where you realistically would have done so even if not much damaged or not damaged at all. For example:

1) If missing a rendezvous with a tanker or uboat and running out of fuel in an enemy-controlled area

2) If getting damage that would not allow you to submerge or even return to base, in enemy-controlled areas

3) If cornered without escape and preferring to scuttle the boat in a deep water area, so that the enemy can't rescue it.

@Stiebler

Thank you very much, again, for all this code-work :rock:

IMHO, I must agree with Hitman, not by principle but by player experience (over 480 war patrols, heavy moded GWX, NYGM, WAC).

I mean, many times I was in situation unable to move the U-boot due to severe damages, in machines, batteries, rudder, propeller etc. BUT with hull integrity much more than 20 %.

I would like to say something more:

I suppose you did all this job for use with any super mod or any moded SH3.

Yes, but, "every" player here is a different zones.cfg. . . and not only.

It is very possible to have a heavy-damaged-scrap-inside U-boot with very healthy hull integrity. . .

Thanks for asking feedback.

Thanks for keeping it alive :up:

Paulski

06-22-11, 05:08 PM

The patch works for me, but I have one question; Sometimes my message box shows a message from the CE, but without any text, only "CE:". Is this normal, and should I just ignore it?

mefaba

06-22-11, 05:10 PM

The patch works for me, but I have one question; Sometimes my message box shows a message from the CE, but without any text, only "CE:". Is this normal, and should I just ignore it?

That's what I am talking about.

Normally it must show a warning message that comes with this mod/patch. But they don't show up. In my case, BdU replies to patrol reports also don't show up.

Bakkels

06-22-11, 05:57 PM

The patch works for me, but I have one question; Sometimes my message box shows a message from the CE, but without any text, only "CE:". Is this normal, and should I just ignore it?

That's the 'fog warning'. It may be that other mods interfere, but I'm experiencing the same thing. I'm not too bothered with it, if I just see the "CE:" I know weather has changed and visibility is bad.

Paulski

06-22-11, 06:53 PM

That's what I am talking about.

Normally it must show a warning message that comes with this mod/patch. But they don't show up. In my case, BdU replies to patrol reports also don't show up.

I get reply from BdU, but the standard one from GWX. But that's because I'm using the F version of this patch, and only the G version has the 28 different replies. Don't know wich version you are running offcourse.

That's the 'fog warning'. It may be that other mods interfere, but I'm experiencing the same thing. I'm not too bothered with it, if I just see the "CE:" I know weather has changed and visibility is bad.

So I get the warning at every weather change? Because I haven't seen any fog yet, after this patch...

Bakkels

06-22-11, 07:01 PM

This patch has no influence on graphics. What I mean is; it depends on what environment mod you have how much you actually visually notice the fog. The thing this mod does (well, one of the many things) is that it warns you when visibility is reduced. So when you go from clear skies to a storm with overcast, it just warns you. That's the "CE:" message. It doesn't do anything when for example weather goes from clear skies to slight overcast. Only when visibility [as your watch officer would report it when you ask him] changes to 'poor', you get this warning. It's quite handy actually.

mefaba

06-23-11, 12:24 AM

I get reply from BdU, but the standard one from GWX. But that's because I'm using the F version of this patch, and only the G version has the 28 different replies. Don't know wich version you are running offcourse.

I use G. I can live without the fog warning but this blank messages will drive me crazy. :damn:

h.sie

06-23-11, 01:48 AM

@Mefaba: You must use the first 4 Fore_Internal_Reserve slots, not the Fore_Internal_Slots. They must be empty.

If there are blank messages when weather changes or you sent a status report some time ago -> that is a strong indicator that something went wrong with adding the additional messages to your installation. did you add the Supplement mod? look directly into your installation where you installed sh3. de_menu.txt and en_menu.txt should contain the new messages at the end of the file!

Did you get any messages after refuelling at U-tanker?

@Paulski: This fix does not change the weather. So if one hasn't seen any fog so far, this is NOT caused by this fixes! Try very high TC.

SOmetimes there are empty messages when water floods into the sub

Stiebler

06-23-11, 02:15 AM

Many thanks for the feedback.

You all made some very good points, most of which I had not considered (ahem...).

1. (Hitman) Commander should choose when to scuttle. For example, U-boat might have run out of fuel.
Yes, very good point indeed, and that event has happened to me on a few occasions with SH3.

2. (JeromeHeretic). How can you dive to destruction in shallow water?
Another excellent point I had not considered.

3. (NGT). U-boat reduced to a wreck, but hull integrity undamaged.
And another very important point.

Clearly, then, the hull integrity, at which the U-boat can send a radio status message seeking to abandon ship, needs to be steeply raised. Hitman has suggested to 100%. I am reluctant to make the level as high as this, since then *every* radio message sent by the player will be a request to abandon ship. I cannot think of how to provide an extra toggle or button to press to change the radio status message.

Perhaps 50% damage would be a good compromise, and would fit with the existing code which causes BdU to order the U-boat to return home to base with severe damage.

There is another issue, which I have considered, but could not then find an answer:
If you are sunk in action next to a convoy, it is nearly certain you will be rescued by the Allies. If you sink yourself in mid-Atlantic (eg, run out of fuel), then it is nearly certain you will be rescued by U-boat. If you sink yourself in the Bay of Biscay after serious air attack, then you might be rescued by Allies or U-boat.

In other words, the probability of who rescues you depends on location (closeness of enemy, position in ocean). This is very hard to code, and I have not attempted it.

But reading your replies has given me an idea!
The probability of being rescued by U-boat (the best outcome) should depend on the extent of hull integrity when you send your emergency message. The higher the hull integrity, the more likely you are to be rescued by U-boat.

Thus, if you self-sink after running out of fuel, it is very probable that you will be rescued by U-boat.

If you self-sink after surfacing with heavy damage after an attack on a convoy, you will be shelled heavily, resulting in low hull integrity. So it is very likely you will be rescued by the Allies.

This new idea seems to fit the facts fairly well, although obviously it is possible to imagine circumstances where the result will be wrong. It will cause some difficult decisions for the Dead-Is-Dead players. When is best to surface, and when is best to try to escape?

Concerning NGT's problem - U-boat wrecked, high hull integrity. The best solution is to dive to deep depth, until the hull is also damaged, then blow ballast to return to the surface to send your abandoning message. If anyone can think of a better idea, then I should like to hear it.

Concerning Jerome's problem: how to self-sink in shallow water. As you suggested, you could keep rising and dropping onto the sea bottom, but that is not very acceptable. But I can think of nothing better.

What is really needed is another player action before sending the emergency radio message, which I can program to simulate setting off a scuttling-charge. In other words, after you commit this action, then send the radio message, the hull integrity is set to (say) 2% after 5 minutes. I shall think about that.

Thanks again for all the suggestions - very thought-provoking!

Stiebler.

JeromeHeretic

06-23-11, 02:49 AM

If there's no solution for this situations, it doesn't matter to me. Simply it's old game, which have some limits. What you do over this limits is amazing anyway. :salute:

I like your idea with probability of rescue by U-boat by % of damage.

h.sie

06-23-11, 03:43 AM

@mefaba: If new messages still are not displayed correctly, look at the beginning of en_menu.txt / de_menu.txt. There must be a line starting with NumberOfStrings=5000 or similar. This number should not be below 5000.

Paulski

06-23-11, 04:04 AM

@Paulski: This fix does not change the weather. So if one hasn't seen any fog so far, this is NOT caused by this fixes! Try very high TC.

I know this patch doesn't change the weather ;) I was asking if the fog report comes up with EVERY weather change. I did have a few times where visibility changed to "moderate", could this be why the empty message comes up?

h.sie

06-23-11, 04:37 AM

@Paulski: No I don't think so. Some supermods have deleted some messages in en_menu.txt for certain reasons.

Did you get any of the new messages that came with V15F3, e.g. "Oxygen supply: 20%" when diving? If not, there seems to be something wrong with your message files.

Did you append the new messages to your en_menu.txt? Are these new messages really located in the correct folder of your sh3-install? Is the first line "NumberOfStrings>=5000"??

mefaba

06-23-11, 04:38 AM

@Mefaba: You must use the first 4 Fore_Internal_Reserve slots, not the Fore_Internal_Slots. They must be empty.

If there are blank messages when weather changes or you sent a status report some time ago -> that is a strong indicator that something went wrong with adding the additional messages to your installation. did you add the Supplement mod? look directly into your installation where you installed sh3. de_menu.txt and en_menu.txt should contain the new messages at the end of the file!

Did you get any messages after refuelling at U-tanker?

"Fore internal reserves" were empty.

I activated the "supplement mod". Before activating I added "messages for h.sie mod" in the end of en_menu.txt and de_menu.txt files.

@mefaba: If new messages still are not displayed correctly, look at the beginning of en_menu.txt / de_menu.txt. There must be a line starting with NumberOfStrings=5000 or similar. This number should not be below 5000.

Max number of strings = 5000. It is not below 5000.

h.sie

06-23-11, 04:43 AM

@mefaba:

* What Supermod?

* Do the other fixes work for you?

* Did you get any messages after refuelling at U-tanker?

* Did you get any of the new messages that came with V15G?

* Maybe you misunderstood: Please look in the en_menu.txt of your sh3-install: Can you find there the new messages at the end like:

4815=Fog arising, Sir
4818=Fod disappears ??

mefaba

06-23-11, 05:22 AM

What Supermod?GWX3 GOLD

Do the other fixes work for you?Yes. All of them seem to work.

Did you get any messages after refuelling at U-tanker? I got blank CE: message

Did you get any of the new messages that came with V15G?I got none of the messages that I added to en_menu.txt file.

Maybe you misunderstood: Please look in the en_menu.txt of your sh3-install: Can you find there the new messages at the end like:

4815=Fog arising, Sir
4818=Fod disappears ??Yes. Now I look and see that messages in the end of en_menu.txt which is located in data/menu. Same is also for de_menu.txt.

Before activating the "supplement mod", I added this messages in those files and then deleted the .txt files in supplement mod. Then I activated the supplement mod without any clash.

If it helps, I use Magui Final as GUI mod. One thing that I suspect is "Wb mid patrol orders" mod which is installed in SH3 Commander. It's also a mod that generates BdU response for your status report. But I am not sure if it causes that problem.

h.sie

06-23-11, 05:29 AM

mefaba

06-23-11, 05:50 AM

@mefaba: Thanks for details. You seem to have read the manual and done all steps correcty. The changes should work with any GUI.

Phew. Could you try to disable that suspicious mod?

Can anyone please confirm that V15G1 works for him with all the new messages???

Thanks for your help h.sie. Thanks for your time.

I am doing something wrong maybe.

For last measure, I will make a clean install of SH3 and try again. I find the features added by your mod indispensable for my gaming pleasure and I really want to make it work.

If someone can confirm that they run the mod without any problems, that would be helpful.

Thank you again for your great work.

h.sie

06-23-11, 06:02 AM

maybe you are the only user

SquareSteelBar

06-23-11, 06:03 AM

Did just a short single mission [1.5G1 - did not the U-Tanker part yet...]. All seems to be fine so far:

http://www7.pic-upload.de/23.06.11/ikw4axcit71j.jpg

http://www7.pic-upload.de/23.06.11/s8m18xlmb334.jpg

http://www7.pic-upload.de/23.06.11/a8xdt5fri4e2.jpg

http://www7.pic-upload.de/23.06.11/55oewo8zj9p.jpg

http://www7.pic-upload.de/23.06.11/8uilqwa1w289.jpg

http://www7.pic-upload.de/23.06.11/jes97cs8zz.jpg

http://www7.pic-upload.de/23.06.11/8e9z8pkx216.jpg

h.sie

06-23-11, 06:11 AM

@SSB: Thanks!

mefaba

06-23-11, 06:18 AM

maybe you are the only user

It seems so.

Stiebler

06-23-11, 06:29 AM

I have newly discovered a better method to signal by radio status command that you wish to surrender/abandon your U-boat.

As discussed above, the original idea was to send an automatic signal when hull integrity < 20%, but this creates its own problems.

However, if the player first clicks on the Radio 'Report Contacts' button (left-most button on the radio group), then this can be a trigger to indicate that the radio status report, which follows, is a signal to abandon ship.

Therefore abandon ship sequence will become:
1. Click on 'Report contacts' button (can be done underwater).
2. When on surface, click on radio 'Status Report' button.

The combination means: I want to abandon ship (regardless of current hitpoints).
After a set period (5mins? 10 mins?) hull integrity will be set to 2%. (Scuttling charges exploded.)
Meanwhile, you dive the boat to sink it.

The remainder of the rescue sequence will proceed as described in my previous post above.

Incidentally, does anyone know the purpose of the radio 'Report Contacts' button? Every time I click on it, regardless of whatever messages I have sent/received, I get the same message 'No radio messages received.'

This creates an alternative possibility:
If the 'Report Contacts' button really serves no other use, we can turn it into an emergency 'Abandon ship' button, without need to use the radio Status Report at all. All it needs is a depth test - the button can only be used when depth is < 15 metres to prevent use while submerged.

@H.sie:
For your information:
'Report Contacts' button can be intercepted at 0x513cca.
'Send Contact Report' button can be intercepted at 0x492a30.

Stiebler.

h.sie

06-23-11, 06:36 AM

@Stiebler: Thanks very much for the code positions.

Unfortunately, I will also use the "contact report" button for a future "wolfpack" fix, as one can see here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1688917&postcount=29

So in the future the player will have to decide: Surrender or Wolfpack (provided I succeed with that fix).

Is it really useless so far? I thought, you can get help of aircraft if you send a contact report.

SquareSteelBar

06-23-11, 06:47 AM

From manual:

http://www7.pic-upload.de/23.06.11/x242wgwvhud.jpg

http://www7.pic-upload.de/23.06.11/e878u1vrerm.jpg

Hitman

06-23-11, 06:50 AM

Incidentally, does anyone know the purpose of the radio 'Report Contacts' button? Every time I click on it, regardless of whatever messages I have sent/received, I get the same message 'No radio messages received.'

This creates an alternative possibility:
If the 'Report Contacts' button really serves no other use, we can turn it into an emergency 'Abandon ship' button, without need to use the radio Status Report at all. All it needs is a depth test - the button can only be used when depth is < 15 metres to prevent use while submerged.

I think it could well be replaced -lettering and all- for a button that is "Abandon and scuttle UBoat", which both sends the message to BDU (BDU can answer "Acknowledged, will try to send pick up" or something similar) and triggers charges 5 minutes later.

Simply this would be awesome and probably also solves the problem of died/surving crew members etc :up:

LGN1

06-23-11, 06:59 AM

I think there is some confusion. The 'send contact report' (Fuehlungsmeldung senden) button should only work when you have contact with the enemy (I think you have to lock on three ships).

Then there is also a button in the radio operator's menu. Stiebler, do you mean this button?

Cheers, LGN1

h.sie

06-23-11, 07:03 AM

Maybe I should read the sh3 manual before programming

LGN1

06-23-11, 07:07 AM

But don't take it too serious as you can have trouble with the last two messages :damn:

Paulski

06-23-11, 07:12 AM

h.sie

06-23-11, 07:17 AM

@Paulski: Look into the Quick-Manual.

Paulski

06-23-11, 07:48 AM

See it now, stupid of me :oops: Will do so after my current patrol ;)

LGN1

06-23-11, 09:09 AM

In the radio operator section of commands_*.cfg is a report_nearest_radio_contact entry. Maybe the button is for reporting DF contacts; a feature that seems to be not fully implemented/finished :06: (DF contacts are also mentioned in sensors.cfg)

;______________________________________
;RADIO OPERATOR

[Cmd450]
Name=Radio_operator
Ctxt=1
GoBack=Radar_view

[Cmd451]
Name=Report_nearest_radio_contact
Ctxt=1
MnID=0x3F290002

[Cmd452]
Name=Send_contact_report
Ctxt=1
MnID=0x3F290003

[Cmd454]
Name=Send_patrol_report
Ctxt=1
MnID=0x3F290005

[Cmd460]
Name=Radar_one_sweep
Ctxt=1
MnID=0x3F2B0002

[Cmd461]
Name=Radar_continuous_sweep
Ctxt=1
MnID=0x3F2B0003

[Cmd462]
Name=Radar_turn_off
Ctxt=1
MnID=0x3F2B0004

[Cmd465]
Name=Gramophone_toggle
Ctxt=1

[Cmd466]
Name=Gramophone_play
Ctxt=1
MnID=0x3F210002

[Cmd467]
Name=Gramophone_stop
Ctxt=1
MnID=0x3F210004

[Cmd468]
Name=Gramophone_prev
Ctxt=1
MnID=0x3F210003

[Cmd469]
Name=Gramophone_next
Ctxt=1
MnID=0x3F210005

Stiebler

06-23-11, 09:11 AM

There seems to be some confusion here about the contact reports.

If you click on the radio button from the cluster of six at the bottom of the left map screen (and other screens), then click on the left-most button ("Report") of the group of three, there appear three final buttons in mid-screen. You can see their functions by hovering the mouse over them.

From left to right:
a) "Report Contacts"/"Kontakte melden"/ 2905*.
b) "Send contact report"/"Fuhlungsmeldung schicken"/ 2906*.
c) "Send Patrol report"/"Feindtfahrtbericht schicken"/2908*
[* = values in en/de_menu.txt]

You click on (b) to announce contact with the enemy.
You click on (c) to send a status report.
But (a) does... what? That is the button I wish to use for a 'desire to surrender'.

[Edit: Just seen this post crossed with that of LGN1.]

Stiebler.

SquareSteelBar

06-23-11, 12:38 PM

...But (a) does... what?...

Report Nearest Radio Contact
The Radio Operator repeats the last radio contact received.It seems that this option doesn't work...

Hitman

06-23-11, 02:50 PM

It seems that this option doesn't work...

Well, there's our free button then :DL

Paulski

06-23-11, 02:52 PM

It does work, but not always. When I click it I sometimes get a message like:

"Nearest radio contact at bearing XXX, range xxx km!".

But still I don't get what's the use of it...

Wolfstriked

06-23-11, 03:00 PM

That button never worked for me.

Hitman

06-23-11, 03:19 PM

It does work, but not always. When I click it I sometimes get a message like:

"Nearest radio contact at bearing XXX, range xxx km!".

But still I don't get what's the use of it...

Yes, seems to be a D/F device :hmmm:

That button never worked for me.

May be it only works later in the war, when Uboats got equipped with that? Also, it will only work if the enemy is radioing, of course.

In any case, I guess that you would detect a convoy previously with hydrophones or radar detector than with D/F

Paulski

06-23-11, 03:22 PM

It's not only later in the war, I'm in july 1940 ;)

Wolfstriked

06-23-11, 05:15 PM

Yes, seems to be a D/F device :hmmm:

May be it only works later in the war, when Uboats got equipped with that? Also, it will only work if the enemy is radioing, of course.

In any case, I guess that you would detect a convoy previously with hydrophones or radar detector than with D/F

Could it be that they automated and forgot to remove the "Report Contacts" button.Right now we have "radio message received" and probably had a "contacts message received".Then when you clicked on report contacts you went to map and it highlighted where on map the message states a contact was found.Would make sense for what Paulski posted

""It does work, but not always. When I click it I sometimes get a message like....."Nearest radio contact at bearing XXX, range xxx km!""

About the not having the percentage of damage to hull.Could it be changed so that you have to be surfaced and then give the WO "Survey hull" command?

Paulski

06-23-11, 05:32 PM

Could it be that they automated and forgot to remove the "Report Contacts" button.Right now we have "radio message received" and probably had a "contacts message received".Then when you clicked on report contacts you went to map and it highlighted where on map the message states a contact was found.Would make sense for what Paulski posted

""It does work, but not always. When I click it I sometimes get a message like....."Nearest radio contact at bearing XXX, range xxx km!""

I think your theory could be right.. :)

About the not having the percentage of damage to hull.Could it be changed so that you have to be surfaced and then give the WO "Survey hull" command?

Would be awesome!

makman94

06-24-11, 03:51 AM

Hsie,some questions.When the scopes are vibrating from high speed and you go to F12 view its blurry also.Is that normal and if so can it be fixed?........

look here : http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1665850&postcount=450

....

Can anyone please confirm that V15G1 works for him with all the new messages???

yes i can confirm that ! :up: everything is working as H.Sie are designing them.

@ Stiebler and H.Sie : now that executables are 'open' you are showing to everyone who are the real modders :up:. thank you for all (big or small ...it doesn't matter) that you have offered us so far ! :yep:

h.sie

06-24-11, 05:10 AM

Thanks for the kind words, Makman, but I personally wouldn't have started to try to "open" the sh3.exe, if there weren't alle these great supermods and other mods that made sh3 an adventure. so I see myself as a part of a group of people who all have the same objective: a better sim. I would prefer not to make a difference between "real" and "other" modders.

Wolfstriked

06-24-11, 12:01 PM

look here : http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1665850&postcount=450

Thanks again.

Stiebler

06-24-11, 02:19 PM

I have now a functioning version of the U-boat surrender mod, as described above, but with these variations:

1. You click on the useless 'Report Contacts' radio button, which indicates 'willingness to surrender\abandon boat'. This action cannot be reversed!
2. Subsequently, any radio status message that you send (which must be from the surfaced U-boat) will notify BdU that you are abandoning the boat, and also set scuttling charges to explode after 10 (game-) minutes.
3. When the 10 minutes are up, your hull-integrity is reduced to precisely 2.0, whether you are on the surface or submerged.
4. These 2.0 hull-points ensure that your U-boat will be 'sunk by pressure' even at periscope depth, thus the problem of how to sink your U-boat in shallow waters is now fixed. [Edit: Forgot to mention - you must still self-sink the U-boat to end the game.]
5. The probability of being rescued by Allies or U-boat depends on the hull-integrity that you had at the time you signalled BdU. The higher the hull integrity, the greater the chance that you will be rescued by U-boat. (So Dead-Is-Dead players can legitimately start a new career in a new U-boat.) Otherwise, you will be rescued by the Allies (cannot continue a new career).

The code is much longer and more complex than I had imagined when I started. But it is done now - subject to a lot more testing.

I chose the double-click method (1. Report Contacts button; 2. Radio status report) since it ensures that a message is sent to BdU, and will appear in your list of radio messages. However, there is no technical reason why all the code should not be placed with the Report Contacts button alone.

Would some kind modder please create a new icon for the 'Report Contacts' radio button, to indicate that it is now used to abandon ship? It had better have a lot of bright red colour in it, so that players do not press it accidently. Once pressed, it cannot be un-pressed!

Stiebler.

vodkaphile

06-24-11, 04:06 PM

My SH3.exe isn't compatible.... ?

EDIT:

I figured out this is because I hacked my sh3.exe to be starforce free.

Also I figured out how to circumvent the checksums in the .bat to allow me to patch my game.

I'm working on combining Stiebler's new work with h.sie's beta work. I suppose I should ask their permission :D

When I say I'm working on it, I mean I've successfully combined them however still working stability issues. I of course will not release anythign without the permission of said authors of the original patches.

Also there may be some people who disagree with a release at all due to the fact that it circumvents copy-protection and allows illegal/pirated versions of the game to be used.

Madox58

06-24-11, 05:34 PM

Directly changeing the StarForce 'hacked' versions is ok if you want to
wasted more time then money.
The reason I say that is because the StarForce free versions are so cheap, and much more stable.

Both the StarForce version and the reloaded hack broke many things.
One only needs to run the Game with both versions installed under any number of programs.
You can find the exact crash points time and time again!
And saved Games issues are greatly reduced with the newer StarForce free versions.

Pony up 7 bucks or so and order through the SubSim link and save yourself
many 'WTF' moments.

vodkaphile

06-24-11, 05:55 PM

Pony up 7 bucks or so and order through the SubSim link and save yourself
many 'WTF' moments.

It is still in the mail.

Madox58

06-24-11, 06:12 PM

Very Good!
You will be much happier with the newest version!
:up:

The files actually date back to the release date of SH3!
So they are pre-StarForce, full version files!

LGN1 and many others can confirm a better overall Game.

h.sie

06-25-11, 04:09 AM

Regarding Wolfpacks: Working on a proof-of-concept: Current state:

After discovering a convoy, I sent a status report. After that, a Sergbuto AI-Submarine automatically was "beamed" to the last waypoint of the convoy and waited for him. I could see the Sub there. BUT: It didn't attack.

Then I tried to beam "CL Luetzow" cruiser instead. He started to attack after discovering the convoy.

Any idea why the AI-Subs didn't attack?

h.sie

06-25-11, 04:15 AM

@mefaba, Paulski: Does it work for you now?

SquareSteelBar

06-25-11, 04:22 AM

Maybe you're too impatient?
Serg's AI subs attack very rarely [IMHO] and only when they're very close to an enemy unit.

Did you already watch the behavior in a single mission (http://www.file-upload.net/download-3535224/Wolfsrudel.mis.html)?

Paulski

06-25-11, 04:50 AM

@mefaba, Paulski: Does it work for you now?

Yes it does, thank you for this great patch! :)

h.sie

06-25-11, 05:08 AM

@SSB: Yes, it works in a Single Mission as well as if they are scripted into a convoy in the RND layer of the campaign (as in NYGM or LSH).

For my trials, I scriped one Sub into the SCR layer only for the special purpose of beeing beamed to a convoy after a contact report. No work. Beaming itself works, the sub is there, but does nothing. But beaming Lutzow CL works - the cruiser attacks, so it isn't related to SCR layer in principle.

@Paulski: Great. Have fun!

LGN1

06-25-11, 05:34 AM

Great work, h.sie!

Maybe it's a sensor issue :hmmm: How close is the convoy approaching the sub?

Cheers, LGN1

h.sie

06-25-11, 05:50 AM

@LGN1: Not yet great work, since no success so far.

The Sub got exactly the same LONG/LAT coordinates as the last waypoint of the convoy, so they nearly should crash. The sub has speed=0, deleteAtLastWaypoint=false, maybe it needs some speed to become active????

Maybe the same priciple with a whole random convoy consisting only of AI-Subs (=wolfpack) in the RND instead of the SCR has more effect? Positive side-effect: We only need to beam once the convoy coordinates and than already have a whole AI-sub convoy consisting of 1-4 subs......we'll see.

LGN1

06-25-11, 06:26 AM

Hi h.sie,

it's not yet a full success, but a first one :D

Was the sub attacked by the convoy?

Maybe a question for some else, but I'm wondering why the AI subs, if they are anyway treated in-game as surface units, are inside the submarine folder and not the ship folder :06: Why not use a usual ship looking like a sub :hmmm: Maybe just a relict from the old days when hopes were high that full working AI subs could be created?

The problem I see with the rnd layer is that you cannot make sure that a unit has been spawned (I think spawning only starts after loading the game and then after the spawning interval. So you might set the spawning probability to 100% and a spawning interval of a few minutes, but then you flood the game with AI subs. However, this might be solved by deleteonlastwaypoint=true and a close last waypoint).

Anyway, I'm not convinced that the problem is rnd vs. scr layer related (BTW, what was the date of the AI sub unit in the scr layer :hmmm:).

Cheers, LGN1

h.sie

06-25-11, 06:39 AM

@lgn1: the convoy was unescorted. but good idea to escort him in order to see if the sub is *really* there (detected by escorts)- and not only a 3d graphics without any function.

regarding RND: it is not nessesary to be sure if a sub is spawned at game start or not, from my programmers view, since the group's root point (location where the rnd group is spawned from) is already in memory at game start, and only this point will be beamed. this could even be a better solution than using the SCR layer. we'll see.

h.sie

06-25-11, 06:55 AM

if I get this to work, I'll give my own thread a 5 stars rating :D

Stiebler

06-25-11, 08:33 AM

h.sie

06-25-11, 09:14 AM

@Stiebler: Thanks for the finding of the interception code of the "contact report / fühlungsmeldung" button.

There are some more useless buttons in sh3 I think , like "suggest best merchant / target " (?) or similar. I never saw that these had any function.

SquareSteelBar

06-25-11, 09:18 AM

if I get this to work, I'll give my own thread a 5 stars rating :DVon mir gibt's dann noch 'einen drauf mit Mappe'...

LGN1

06-25-11, 09:33 AM

regarding RND: it is not nessesary to be sure if a sub is spawned at game start or not, from my programmers view, since the group's root point (location where the rnd group is spawned from) is already in memory at game start, and only this point will be beamed. this could even be a better solution than using the SCR layer. we'll see.

The rnd layer has certainly some advantages, e.g., the possibility of spawning random numbers of subs within the existing rnd scheme. However, I don't know what happens if you have a rnd entry without any waypoints. Are the ships spawned on each other :06: In addition, from my experience no ships are spawned in rendering range.

Concerning sending messages: Do you, Stiebler and h.sie, know how the game implements the limits on sending messages, e.g., the two hour interval between sending status reports? I'm wondering because it might be good to change the limits for the 'Fuehlungsmeldung'. With the current setting it is very difficult to report a convoy after the allies have radar because you hardly come close enough to see them (and being on the surface to send the message).

Cheers, LGN1

sharkbit

06-25-11, 11:17 AM

if I get this to work, I'll give my own thread a 5 stars rating :D

If you get this to work, you should get modder of the century, along wih Stiebler sharing the honor as well for both of your hard work. :salute:

I've said it before in this thread and I'll say it again-
Thanks for all of your hard work,Stiebler and h.sie. :salute:

The work you guys have done have elevated SH3 beyond anyone's expectations.

:)

Stiebler

06-25-11, 02:17 PM

This is just a brief note to say that Square Steel Bar has very kindly sent me an excellent red emergency radio button for the forthcoming surrender mod, in response to my earlier request for help.

Also a good idea for the en/de_menu.txt files.

Many thanks to SSB, and no need for anyone else to make another effort.

Stiebler.

LGN1

06-25-11, 03:28 PM

Hi h.sie,

I have made some tests and found that the AI sub (I used GWX's 9b4) attacks :hmmm:

I took a campaign.scr with a Black Swan and a 9b4 AI sub. I 'beamed' the 9b4 into position and watched. Both ships attacked each other (and the 9b4 won). However, the AI sub did not show any reaction except firing the gun. No course deviation, no speed increase, nothing. Just shooting.

I'm really wondering why the AI sub is designated as a submarine :hmmm: Why not create a regular ship that looks like a sub and designate it a destroyer. Shouldn't it then behave as a destroyer, i.e., increase speed, change course, attack,...

Where are the old hands who created the AI subs? Please enlighten me.

Cheers, LGN1

TheDarkWraith

06-25-11, 05:27 PM

I would just change the cmdr_ class to ship from submarine. Redo the .sim file using the ship cmdr controller. That should turn it into a 'ship'.

SquareSteelBar

06-26-11, 01:40 AM

Sergbuto did that already in NSS_Uboat7a.sim

LGN1

06-26-11, 04:03 AM

Hi,

I think the 9b4 already has the correct cmdr_class :hmmm:

If I look at the *.sim of, e.g., a Black Swan and a merchant, it looks as if their AI is the same. However, they react differently on a threat. One attacks, speeds up, and changes course, the other one just shoots and starts the sinusoidal sailing. I'm wondering what controls this different behavior. It seems nothing within the *.sim file. Maybe it's their weapon loadout (no depth-charges) :06:

Cheers, LGN1

Tobias99

06-26-11, 05:18 AM

Hello, can anyone help me?

I try to patched SH3 (1.4) with this Tool, but i have a mistake message that means:

"sorry, no comatible version of SH3 found, patching not possible"

Ideas?

Thx for help..

Edit:

I read i can only patch the original .exe from my DVD (without 4GB Patch) but i looked in my DVD, theres no .exe, theres "Autorun" and a "Setup" Button, must i install the game new to extract the .exe?

LGN1

06-26-11, 05:47 AM

I have determined the use of the 'Report Contacts' radio button in SH3.

If a single ship sends a radio message, the 'Report Contacts' button provides a direction and distance to the ship. The big problems with this button are these:
1. Single ships send radio reports rarely, except in the earliest days of the war.
2. The distances involved are too large to be of any use. In the North Sea in 1939, I was getting ranges of up to 600 miles. By the time you reach the point, the target has long moved, and you find yourself chasing the next nearest single ship in the oppositie direction - which has also moved by the time you arrive!

What is really exasperating is that pressing this button can result in one of two messages:
Either: No radio messages received. This is the code my Surrender mod is using.
Or: A direction and distance to a target, which uses some closely related code that is also used by the sonar-man! Evidently general purpose code to provide direction and distance to a target.

There is a way of filtering out the unwanted usage, but I'm not sure whether to continue with the existing code which will only work if no single ship nearby has signalled; or to apply a simple filter, which will result in the unwanted messages being shown as well as the 'Abandon U-boat' message. Hmmm.

SquareSteelBar - you have PM.

Stiebler.

Thanks a lot for the information, Stiebler!

I have played around a bit with the 'Report Contacts' button and it seems it can be quite useful sometimes!

I'm wondering whether it's a good idea to break/remove this feature :hmmm: Have you thought about using instead of the 'Report Contacts' button one of the special maneuver buttons in the chief engineer menu? Breaking these special maneuver buttons does not have such consequences as breaking the 'Report Contacts' button because you can perform all the special maneuvers yourself. I think this would be a much more solid solution than breaking the 'Report Contacts' feature. It would also make sense: You order the Chief Engineer to prepare the special maneuver of sinking the boat and then the radio man sends the message.

Regards, LGN1

Edit: It might be also easier to use the special maneuver button because it has not two different consequences.

h.sie

06-26-11, 06:05 AM

@Stiebler, LGN1:

AGAIK, the following (marking/targeting) commands have no function:

2868=Nearest ship
2869=Nearest merchant
2870=Nearest warship
2871=Recommanded target

Why not use those?

@Tobias: You are correct. Just make a second install to somewhere on your HD, take the sh3.exe from it and delete that install.

Tobias99

06-26-11, 06:11 AM

Thx for quick reply h.sie :)

One question before i do this:

Must i patch the .exe to 1.4 before i patch with your tool?
Sorry - hope no dumb question:salute:

h.sie

06-26-11, 06:24 AM

@Tobias: No dumb question.

Maybe you have luck and it's already v1.4.

If not, you've to make it -> v1.4 first!

Then, make a backup of your sh3.exe for further patch updates!

Tobias99

06-26-11, 06:33 AM

h.sie, i have try it..
I have the Europe (German)-Version von SH3, so with the first Install i have the .exe 1.0
I patch it to 1.4 - and then i will patch the 1.4 .exe with your tool..
..but the same message "not compatible version.."
What do i wrong?
Only for English-Version?
Thx a lot once more..

(Should i send you my 1.4 exe?)

h.sie

06-26-11, 06:41 AM

@Tobias: Try V15G1. If that does not work, send me both of your files. Upload them to somewhere and send me the link via PM.

LGN1

06-26-11, 06:47 AM

Hi,

I've made some further tests concerning the AI behavior. It seems it is controlled by the type entry. I designated a C3 as type=4 (destroyer) and it started to behave like a destroyer, i.e., trying to ram my boat,...

Now the open questions are:

- Is it possible to have regular ships sailing submerged? I guess yes with the proper zon settings, however, one has to check it.

- Why are all the old AI subs designated as submarines and not destroyers? The destroyer AI should be much more suited :06:

Cheers, LGN1

h.sie

06-26-11, 06:51 AM

LGN1

06-26-11, 06:54 AM

@LGN1: Interesting finding. What about setting Type=4 for Type VIIA? I'll try that. On the other hand: If the immobile AI-Subs are waiting at the right locations for the convoy, it would be sufficient if they only shoot.....

I tried it myself --> CTD. It seems a type=4 in the submarine folder is not possible. Maybe move the Type VIIA to the sea folder and change the type?

I agree it's not that crucial. However, I'm wondering what AI the game uses if a unit is type=200 and there is no dedicated submarine AI in SH3. I would prefer to have a unit with a well defined AI behavior which we know.

In addition, for compatibility issues it might be good to have a new, dedicated sub unit.

Best, LGN1

h.sie

06-26-11, 07:03 AM

Currently trying to move VIIA -> Sea folder

h.sie

06-26-11, 07:28 AM

moved VIIA to the sea folder and also changed the Roster. But MissionEditor came up with warning:

"The unit class SSTypeVIIA from country germany not found in the platforms library".

So there is some more work to do....not my area of expertise......

SquareSteelBar

06-26-11, 07:35 AM

Maybe you have to change UnitType in .cfg files [Roster and Uboat folder].

h.sie

06-26-11, 07:50 AM

The above mentioned warning of MissionEditor was my fault. Problem solved.

@SSB: I changed UnitType to 4 in cfg files of Roster and Submarine!

Completey moved VIIA to Sea-folder. VIIA appeared as "Sea"-Object in Mission-Editor. Fine.

But CTD when mission load.

SquareSteelBar

06-26-11, 07:58 AM

...But CTD when mission load.A possible reason: the sub is splitted into fuselage and conning tower; maybe sea units aren't able to look into 'Objects' folder. :hmmm:

Try to move the tower files to 'Library' folder, then edit the .eqp file of the sub like this:

LinkName=Turm7a_1_High <- Node name used in Turm7a_1_hd.dat

h.sie

06-26-11, 08:27 AM

@Sounds plausible.

Using a single mission I found out that the VIIA's heading must exactly show into the direction where the target ship is. Then he attacs, otherwise not.

h.sie

06-26-11, 08:53 AM

Yes, they seem only to be able to shoot at 0°. I placed one VIIA in waiting position and made 2 merchants passing the VIIA at 1000m range. In the moment the ships were at 0° shooting position, they got hit/sunk.

Stiebler

06-26-11, 08:53 AM

I have played around a bit with the 'Report Contacts' button and it seems it can be quite useful sometimes!

I'm wondering whether it's a good idea to break/remove this feature :hmmm: Have you thought about using instead of the 'Report Contacts' button one of the special maneuver buttons in the chief engineer menu? Breaking these special maneuver buttons does not have such consequences as breaking the 'Report Contacts' button because you can perform all the special maneuvers yourself. I think this would be a much more solid solution than breaking the 'Report Contacts' feature. It would also make sense: You order the Chief Engineer to prepare the special maneuver of sinking the boat and then the radio man sends the message.Sorry guys, but I'm moving faster than you can make alternative suggestions.

I have now a completely functioning surrender mod (for the second time), this time based around the concept of:
1. Use Report Contacts button (reprogrammed) to notify an intention to abandon ship. SSB has given me a nice shiny new red Report Contacts button to adorn the radio controls.
2. Then send Radio Status Message to BdU. This brings up a dialog box informing the player that the boat is abandoned, and there are 10 minutes in which to self-sink (scuttle) the boat.
3. Then the black screen of death, modified to show how many crew survive and whether you are rescued by Allies or U-boat.

I need only to write the documentation to have completed the mod - after spending some two weeks of daily, multi-hour, work on it. It would be a very expensive mod, if I billed my time. Therefore you can understand that I am very reluctant to start having to look for code intercepts for the Chief Engineer, neither does he have any spare buttons, even if their function can be replicated with key presses.

I find it hard to believe that the Radio Contacts button is useful. No one here knew its purpose, when I asked earlier, which shows how useful it was. I had to discover the function for myself, and I found it worthless in operation. I claim "squatters' rights" for the use of this button, since I discovered its use and its coding, although I shall be happy to find an alternative option if Hsie's wolf-packs mod ever needs it. But that is unlikely to be soon.

Stiebler.

h.sie

06-26-11, 09:23 AM

Looking in Sergbutos Readme gives an explaination:

Since it was not possible to limit the ammo amount, the gun rotation/elevation is greatly limited and the sub can fire only directly ahead.

TheDarkWraith

06-26-11, 09:27 AM

Looking in Sergbutos Readme gives an explaination:

Since it was not possible to limit the ammo amount, the gun rotation/elevation is greatly limited and the sub can fire only directly ahead.

I would remove that restriction and set the recoil time of the gun to a large value. That way you can limit how often the gun fires. I wonder why he couldn't limit the ammo amount :06: Seems strange. There are other ways to 'limit' the firing time of the gun. Set the clip size to 1 and set the reload time to a large value will do the same thing (all done in .sim file).

SquareSteelBar

06-26-11, 09:48 AM

This mod comes from the very early times of SH3 modding and was exclusively done by hex editing.

TheDarkWraith

06-26-11, 09:51 AM

This mod comes from the very early times of SH3 modding and was exclusively done by hex editing.

Nothing wrong with hex editing. That's how I do all my work (I don't use S3D - dumbs down the mind) :up: Keeps the mind 'fresh' and the skills strong using Hex editor :yep: In SH5 we have a tool made by the devs (Goblin Editor) that makes modding easy in some areas. Now what should interest you all is that this tool can be used for SH3 (I've used it to open/change files in SH3). Note: It cannot save to .dat files so save to a .sim, .val, or .zon file and copy over to .dat file. This tool makes it REALLY easy to see/adjust .zon files :yeah:

h.sie

06-26-11, 09:53 AM

@TDW: Thanks. After reading Sergbutos readme, I had the same idea and already tried it. Now, the sub shoots in all directions, regardless of it's heading. Overkill. Both ships sunk. One can now enlarge the reload time / recoil time in order to give the sub a realistic fire ability. Or maybe there is a way to restrict the ammo? We'll see.

@SSB: Only Hex-Editing without S3D? Wow

TheDarkWraith

06-26-11, 09:58 AM

@TDW: Thanks. After reading Sergbutos readme, I had the same idea and already tried it. Now, the sub shoots in all directions, regardless of it's heading. Overkill. All sunk. One can now enlarge the reload time / recoil time in order to give the sub a realistic fire ability. Or maybe there is a way to restrict the ammo? We'll see.

Yes you can restrict ammo. In wpn_Cannon controller you tell it what shells to use and the amount of each type of shell. Simply set the amount to the value desired.

Subset of wpn_Cannon controller in .sim file:
00000969 AD 00 00 00 61 6D 6D 6F 5F 73 74 6F 72 61 67 65 ....ammo_storage
00000979 00 24 00 00 00 41 50 00 0E 00 00 00 73 68 65 6C .$...AP.....shel
00000989 6C 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 0B 00 00 00 61 6D l.............am
00000999 6F 75 6E 74 00 00 00 00 00 24 00 00 00 48 45 00 ount.....$...HE.
000009A9 0E 00 00 00 73 68 65 6C 6C 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ....shell.......
000009B9 00 00 0B 00 00 00 61 6D 6F 75 6E 74 00 00 00 00 ......amount....
000009C9 00 24 00 00 00 41 41 00 0E 00 00 00 73 68 65 6C .$...AA.....shel
000009D9 6C 00 CC 96 81 C9 5F CE FE D3 0B 00 00 00 61 6D l....._.......am
000009E9 6F 75 6E 74 00 C4 09 00 00 24 00 00 00 53 53 00 ount.....$...SS.
000009F9 0E 00 00 00 73 68 65 6C 6C 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ....shell.......
00000A09 00 00 0B 00 00 00 61 6D 6F 75 6E 74 00 00 00 00 ......amount....
00000A19 00 .

Probably the reason why he couldn't limit the ammo because they are using the same 88mm deckgun as the player's sub. Thus one needs to clone that gun so you can limit the ammo.

h.sie

06-26-11, 10:10 AM

Now it all works IN PRINCIPLE:

After discovering a convoy I sent a contact report. Then, a AI-Sub was beamed to a waypoint of the convoy. The convoy began to zigzag, but that didn't help. 2 ships sunk.

Still not the right time for optimism. It will need a huge amount of fine-adjusting to get a satisfying result, and it's still not sure, that a satisfying result is possible....

But that's enough for today!

(Yeah!)

h.sie

06-26-11, 10:12 AM

@TDW: Cool. Thanks. So I'll clone the gun and restrict the ammo. should be possible.

LGN1

06-26-11, 10:36 AM

@h.sie: Isn't it already limited in your Sergbutos WolfpackMod V2 Reloaded.rar mod? clip_size=2 and AP shells, ammo=6 :06:

@Stiebler: I agree the 'Report Contacts' button is not important. I thought otherwise because when I tested it I got different distances and bearings over time. However, the reason for this was just that my boat was moving :damn:
All the information that you get from using the button is also present (and more conveniently) on the map. So, you are right, it's not important.

h.sie

06-26-11, 10:40 AM

@LGN1: Not tested yet. Maybe, because it only sank 2 and not all 8 ships of a convoy.

What I don't like is that the VIIA Subs are discovered very early, although they are submerged. But that's because they are treated as surface ships for the game.

@SSB: I will first try to get a solution with the existing VIIA sub (in submarine folder) before I try to move them to the Sea folder and use your suggestion regarding .eqp file.

LGN1

06-26-11, 10:57 AM

As I have written in the other thread, I think the crucial part is getting a unit at the right place depending on the player's action.

I guess which unit is finally used does not really matter. It probably could be any and it could be easily changed by anybody.

h.sie

06-26-11, 12:36 PM

@LGN1:

I agree: The problem can be divided into 2 independent parts:

1) Beam one or more unit(s) to a certain position depending on player's action (players estimation of the convoy's course and speed).

2) Have a AI unit that is capable of attacking a convoy.

I, persononally won't start to program 1) without knowing that 2) is possible. Now, after my tests from today, I think 2) is halfway solved. With little modifications, Sergbutos AI subs can be used for that purpose, but have to be fine-adjusted......

h.sie

urfisch

06-26-11, 02:34 PM

great progress!!! very good work guys!!!

:yeah:

SquareSteelBar

06-26-11, 03:59 PM

...I have now a completely functioning surrender mod (for the second time), this time based around the concept of:
1. Use Report Contacts button (reprogrammed) to notify an intention to abandon ship. SSB has given me a nice shiny new red Report Contacts button to adorn the radio controls.
2. Then send Radio Status Message to BdU. This brings up a dialog box informing the player that the boat is abandoned, and there are 10 minutes in which to self-sink (scuttle) the boat.
3. Then the black screen of death, modified to show how many crew survive and whether you are rescued by Allies or U-boat...Excellent news, mate. :up:

h.sie

06-26-11, 04:34 PM

@Silent_Ace: I had to read an earlier post of you 3 times to understand what you meant:

You wanted a fix that allows only TC=1?

Silent Ace

06-26-11, 04:44 PM

That's what I thought but I think is too radical a move that is not like most players.

h.sie

06-26-11, 04:50 PM

@Silent_Ace: Yes, too radical in my eyes.

Do it yourself: Look into Commands_en.cfg. There all user interaction command should be. Try to disable those for changing TC.

SquareSteelBar

06-27-11, 03:34 AM

What do you think of the idea that future patch out the possibility of accelerating the time during the game.That can easily be done in ...data\Cfg\Main.cfg and My Documents\SH3\data\cfg\main.cfg -> change Maximum TC value to 1

h.sie

06-27-11, 05:06 AM

In my Assembler-Mod archive from earlier trials to mod buoyancy, I found an almost completed fix, which only needs testing and fine-adjusting:

It models water slowly leaking into the sub when in silent-running and thus pumps are not working. This is modelled by very slowly increasing the Sub's mass.

So if you order silent-running, in the first time nothing worse happens and all works well, but after some time the boat gets heavier and it's harder to maintain depth (Not implemented yet, but the LI could additionally inform you about that: "Cannot maintain depth - we must use the pumps" or similar - as in Aces of the Deep). So you have either to increase speed in order to get dynamic buoyancy or you have to stop silent-running. When silent-running is ended, the UBoats mass slowly decreases in order to model pumps pumping out the water.

This fix also models a negative overall-buoyanvy, so that GWX players will have negative buoyancy for very low speeds, similar to the NYGM Anti-Hummingbird-Mod.

I stopped working on this fix due to burn-out from modding some months ago, but it's almost done and needs testing and parameter fine-adjusting, especially:

* How fast does water flood into the boat?
* How fast do pumps pump it out?
* Shall the water flood in without any limit?

I will continue this fix after the wolfpacks, if I find some people willing to do some testing.

@Hitman: I know your suggestions were different a little bit, but positive buoyancy for low depths was hard and caused problems.

Stiebler

06-27-11, 05:15 AM

I have now released the patch-kit for this mod, see here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=184951

H.sie and I agreed that it was necessary to start a new thread to avoid confusion with all the wolf-packs discussion.

Stiebler.

Hitman

06-27-11, 08:02 AM

@Hitman: I know your suggestions were different a little bit, but positive buoyancy for low depths was hard and caused problems.

No problem, we just propose the ideal and most realistic thing and then it depends on your patience to do what you find best possible :up:

Hitman

06-27-11, 12:20 PM

We were discussing this in another thread,

Another nice feature that sadly we have been unable to recreate is the depth charges unbalancing the sub and sending it into an uncontrolled dive or rise. Effectively, a sub hovering is in balance in the water, and as anyone who has been near a small ship knows, you can actually move it with a push of your hand, even it weigths a few tons. So imagine what a depth charge exploding and displacing tons of water over/under her keel can do ... there were instances recorded of subs whose tail or nose was hovered above the surface in 45º angle by a depth charge, and the sudden move of all things inside plus the extreme angle, can easily send it in uncontrolled dive.

and so the idea arose: Any chances of programming a random ocurency of depth charges exploding under or over the submarine at close distance unsettling it (Besides damaging)? Probably displacing the sub a random number of metres up or down at random would suffice to represent this. A UBoat could be blow to the surface as in real life :up:

SquareSteelBar

06-27-11, 01:09 PM

I would like to know: Is there still anybody who wants but cannot use these patches, because either:

1) He/she fears to patch, maybe due to low computer skills, or

2) Has an incompatible sh3.exe version ??

Tell me. I'll try to find a solutionJust found an old backup of the starforce protected sh3.exe [v1.4b] which came with the UBI patch silent_hunter_3_dvd_1.4b_emea.exe. That's the official sh3.exe from June 14th, 2005, 03:05 PM.

Tried just for fun to patch it to v1.5G1 but no luck -> "Sorry, no compatible version of sh3.exe found"

Very weird.... :hmmm:

MD5: 338fa5c2af43b81a8529eb6aac325813

@h.sie: I don't worry about this, it's just for your information.

.

LGN1

06-27-11, 02:07 PM

...

I stopped working on this fix due to burn-out from modding some months ago, but it's almost done and needs testing and parameter fine-adjusting, especially:

* How fast does water flood into the boat?
* How fast do pumps pump it out?
* Shall the water flood in without any limit?

I will continue this fix after the wolfpacks, if I find some people willing to do some testing.

Hi h.sie,

sounds great :up: IIRC, in the original U-Boot Handbuch you can find data for the capacities of the pumps at different depths (L/min). The 'flooding' speed should also depend on the depth. I guess it will be hard to find any hard numbers on this because it probably differed a lot between different subs :-? Isn't the last point solved by the fact that at some point you sink too quickly and get crushed :06:

Anyway, as you can see I'm willing to help and test :D But I think wolfpacks are more important :D:D

Cheers, LGN1

h.sie

06-27-11, 03:06 PM

With Stieblers permission I show his PM in which he wrote some critical comments about my current work for wolfpacks. He didn't want to bring rain into the sunny discussion here about wolfpacks, but in my opinion, sceptic comments are also helpful and constructive.

Stiebler:

Great work, by the way, with what you have done so far with wolf-packs. But there could be alternatives, and I'm not sure what your end-point is:

If you just want to disrupt the defences, then Sergbuto's mod as in NYGM works perfectly.

If you want to see explosions in the convoy, the same mod works perfectly.

If you want to see AI U-boats closing on a convoy and sinking merchants, it might be easier just to move the U-boats as destroyers (as others have said), and randomly wreck merchant ships in the convoys by damaging them/reducing their hit-points. No need for torpedoes or aiming. I believe that that is how the old Aces of the Deep used to create the illusion of sophisticated wolf-pack attacks.

Or are you aiming to mimick the SH5 wolf-pack pattern, where groups of 3-4 U-boats sail into a convoy, fire torpedoes randomly at long range, and sail away again?

Something to think about, anyway.

LGN1

06-27-11, 03:37 PM

Well, I just can speak for myself, but for me the main purpose of the wolfpacks are to a) disrupt the escorts and b) to see an attacked convoy.

Now you might say, as Stiebler does, that the present wolfpacks do the job. I agree, but only partially. The main difference is that in h.sie's work YOU have an influence. It's no longer a matter of luck whether you get into contact with a convoy that has AI subs attached. Instead, your finding of the convoy matters.

At present there is absolutely no advantage (only disadvantage) in sending contact reports (in the middle of the Atlantic). But back then U-boats had to send them (not during the whole war). With h.sie's work you now have an incentive to shadow a convoy and send contact reports! It's no longer seeing a convoy and attacking it.

Instead you have to shadow it, figure out its main course (not easy if you use my zigzagging campaign layers), send a contact report, hope to get a positive reply from BDU... if not, continue shadowing, send another report, hope again,...maybe a positive reply. Now you can time your attack! But then how accurate was your course information? Will the AI sub find the convoy? ... for me this a completely different experience than attacking convoys with AI subs attached. Obviously, I have not yet done it, but I guess that it will be a tremendously satisfying feeling when I have brought an AI sub into contact with a convoy. Probably more satisfying than having sunk a ship.

Honestly, for me it's hard to understand how one can say that the present AI subs do a satisfactory job :06:

Regards, LGN1

PS: Shadowing convoys and not being allowed to attack was a common fate back then. I can imagine well how frustrating this must have been sometimes for the crews. My hopes are that h.sie's work will introduce this aspect to SH3.

Hitman

06-27-11, 03:54 PM

If you want to see AI U-boats closing on a convoy and sinking merchants, it might be easier just to move the U-boats as destroyers (as others have said), and randomly wreck merchant ships in the convoys by damaging them/reducing their hit-points. No need for torpedoes or aiming. I believe that that is how the old Aces of the Deep used to create the illusion of sophisticated wolf-pack attacks.

Actually AOD simulated the torpedoes from the other UBoats. So much so, that you could even get hit by one of them! :o (As in real life, where there were some close calls)

Well, I just can speak for myself, but for me the main purpose of the wolfpacks are to a) disrupt the escorts and b) to see an attacked convoy.

Seeing an attacked convoy, i.e. enemy ships being hit by torpedoes was a rare occurence that mainly happened in the early war, when coonvoys and wolfpacks were smaller and operated close to england, in short ranges. For the wolfpacks formed after Drumbeat, 1942 onwards, convoys were huge and defences scattered, hence wolfpacks operated more by profitting from gaps opened than really converging for a simultaneous attack. It was rare then to see another uboat hit something, but it was not uncommon to find a gap left by two escorts that had fallen behind while holding down and depthcharging an uboat that had attacked 3-4 hours before.

LGN1

06-27-11, 04:02 PM

Hi Hitman,

I mean a convoy that has been attacked, e.g., burning ships,... I'm not interested to see the attack itself (although I guess it would be entertaining).

Cheers, LGN1

TheDarkWraith

06-27-11, 04:17 PM

and so the idea arose: Any chances of programming a random ocurency of depth charges exploding under or over the submarine at close distance unsettling it (Besides damaging)? Probably displacing the sub a random number of metres up or down at random would suffice to represent this. A UBoat could be blow to the surface as in real life :up:

That should be able to be accomplished with modifying the DCs .sim files. I did this in SH5 and since they use the same controller should be possible in SH3/4. Set the explosion range to a high value (250-1000). Set the impulse to 1000-1500. The sub will move up/down and sideways when a DC explodes close to it (or near it).

Stiebler

06-28-11, 01:33 AM

LGN1 said:
The main difference is that in h.sie's work YOU have an influence. It's no longer a matter of luck whether you get into contact with a convoy that has AI subs attached. Instead, your finding of the convoy matters.

At present there is absolutely no advantage (only disadvantage) in sending contact reports (in the middle of the Atlantic). But back then U-boats had to send them (not during the whole war). With h.sie's work you now have an incentive to shadow a convoy and send contact reports! It's no longer seeing a convoy and attacking it.Yes, I agree, that is a very important point, which I had forgotten.

Hitman said:
Actually AOD simulated the torpedoes from the other UBoats. So much so, that you could even get hit by one of them! :o (As in real life, where there were some close calls)Interesting, I never observed that.

Clearly then, a new wolf-packs mod by H.sie will make a significant difference to SH3, and I withdraw my doubts (originally stated privately, but, as H.sie says, subsequently stated publicly with my permission.)

Stiebler.

skwasjer

06-28-11, 07:13 AM

Nothing wrong with hex editing. That's how I do all my work (I don't use S3D - dumbs down the mind) :up: Keeps the mind 'fresh' and the skills strong using Hex editor :yep: In SH5 we have a tool made by the devs (Goblin Editor) that makes modding easy in some areas. Now what should interest you all is that this tool can be used for SH3 (I've used it to open/change files in SH3). Note: It cannot save to .dat files so save to a .sim, .val, or .zon file and copy over to .dat file. This tool makes it REALLY easy to see/adjust .zon files :yeah:
S3D is a crappy tool...
S3D is a crappy tool...
S3D is a crappy tool...
S3D is a crappy tool...
S3D is a crappy tool...
S3D is a crappy tool...
S3D is a crappy tool...
S3D is a crappy tool...

We get it...

Goblin, never heard of it, is that a good hex editor?

h.sie

06-28-11, 08:04 AM

so many things I did with S3D. helped me a lot. thanks, skwasjer.

Hitman

06-28-11, 08:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDarkWraith http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images_acpb/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1691466#post1691466)
Nothing wrong with hex editing. That's how I do all my work (I don't use S3D - dumbs down the mind) :up: Keeps the mind 'fresh' and the skills strong using Hex editor :yep: In SH5 we have a tool made by the devs (Goblin Editor) that makes modding easy in some areas. Now what should interest you all is that this tool can be used for SH3 (I've used it to open/change files in SH3). Note: It cannot save to .dat files so save to a .sim, .val, or .zon file and copy over to .dat file. This tool makes it REALLY easy to see/adjust .zon files :yeah:

S3D is a crappy tool...
S3D is a crappy tool...
S3D is a crappy tool...
S3D is a crappy tool...
S3D is a crappy tool...
S3D is a crappy tool...
S3D is a crappy tool...
S3D is a crappy tool...

We get it...

Goblin, never heard of it, is that a good hex editor?

EDIT:

TDW, from the several ways you could have said that you prefer to work without S3D to avoid limitations and have a broader perspective, this was probably not one of the better ones. S3D has been a wonderful thing for many of us, and we appreciate that. Honestly, I don't think that swaskjer should take any offence from TDW's comment, as I don't believe it was intended to offend at all, but I understand he didn't like it. Now please let us return to the topic, as anyone has some less fortunate expressions from time to time.

urfisch

06-28-11, 10:11 AM

@skwasjer:
skwasjer, thanks a lot for your tool! it enables many people to mod this game. and the more people we have, who are modifying this game, the more fun it is for all of us. simple calculation.

btw, have you released the modified templates for sh5 i was asking for the last year?? there where some datastring issues, s3d was not able to read/write the correct data. maybe you remember.

:hmmm:

in general:

TDW is obliged to be quite confident about his skills, but he has the opinion everyone who mods, should have these skills too and not uses easing software. this is kind of religious thing. like if you use apple-products or not (i dont pray for apple, just using a 2005 ipod).

i would say: let the people mod!

:up:

makman94

06-28-11, 10:19 AM

Wolfstriked

06-28-11, 11:55 AM

Hsie,if I may I will also gladly test your new sink mod.As someone mentioned,if its possible to make it so that the mass of the boat rises faster the deeper you are then thats superb stuff!!!Now the silent running fix does this by just lowering the set depth slowly and it works well IMO.If it accomplished the same thing then is it worth it??If you can change it so it gets worse with depth then again superb stuff.:up:

Whats kool is it seems to model the 10 pound ballast compressor.If you blow ballast or just surface normally the sub seems to not be fully filled with air for awhile.You can blow ballast again and it now rises fully out of the water right away.

""The 10-pound MBT blowing system is used to remove water from the main ballast tanks when the boat is on the surface. It completes the work started by the 600-pound MBT blowing system, thus saving high-pressure air.""

It is turned on when the hatch is opened and just sucks in air and forces into main tank^^^saving the valuable compressed stuff.

h.sie

06-28-11, 04:53 PM

Need help!

I remember many people offering help. Now maybe time has come....

Problem: Our current AI-Subs from Sergbuto have an action radius of only about 2-3 km. That means: If they discover an enemy, they only shoot at him, if he is closer than 2-3km. But if the distance is larger than 2-3km, the Subs do not try to get closer to the enemy. They do nothing.

Using them to intercept a convoy would require to beam a high number of them to the estimated interception area in order to find and attack the convoy - hoping, that one of them is close enough.

So our subs need better AI. Sh3 isn't very flexible in this point. Since I still don't know how to add new AI or modify existing AI, we can only use what Sh3 offers. LGN1 found out that (additionally to the cmdr_AI setting in *.sim) setting Type=4 in the .cfg file gives ships an aggressive destroyer AI. I tried to also set Type=4 for the AI-Sub, but CTD. Possible reason: Type=4 (destroyer) only works for surface ships. So I moved the Sub into the Sea-Folder and changed the Roster-Entries accordingly. CTD. Possible reason: A surface ship cannot load the Turm 3D objects from the Objects folder. So in my opinion there a 2 possible solutions:

1) Modify Serbutos AI-Sub so that it accepts Type=4 entry without CTD, probably by moving the whole Sub into the Sea folder. It is not required that it looks like a sub. In RL the subs didn't see each other.

2) Create a new destroyer model that shoots without sound and visible fire, that is very small (or invisible?) and thus cannot be seen and maybe uses the same weapons as Sergbutos AI Subs, or, even better : Torpedoes.

For 1) and 2) Hydrofones would also be cool!

Thanks. Woldpacks isn't an 1-Man-Project.
H.Sie

@Wolfstriked: Let us please discuss that topic (slow sinking , ballst compressro) if I start to mod that. Currently all my focus is on Wolfpack.

NGT

06-28-11, 05:18 PM

Need help!

.................................................. ................................

So I moved the Sub into the Sea-Folder and changed the Roster-Entries accordingly. CTD. Possible reason: A surface ship cannot load the Turm 3D objects from the Objects folder.

Sorry if I am desperately wrong, but I have an idea:

The XXI U-boot have not Turm inside Objects, his -one and only- Turm is incorporate to .dat file.

Can be useful with a fake skin of VII or XI ?

Sorry, ok ? :D

Wolfstriked

06-28-11, 05:39 PM

Copy that Hsie.Also I reread your post on buoyancy mod and its very different then the current silent running.Ok,back to Wolfpacks:yeah:

SquareSteelBar

06-29-11, 02:47 AM

...Possible reason: A surface ship cannot load the Turm 3D objects from the Objects folder...For testing delete temporarily the conning entries in .eqp file...
If this will work it maybe possible to apply the turm model directly to the fuselage [like in type XXI]. :hmmm:

Hitman

06-29-11, 07:11 AM

2) Create a new destroyer model that shoots without sound and visible fire, that is very small (or invisible?) and thus cannot be seen and maybe uses the same weapons as Sergbutos AI Subs, or, even better : Torpedoes.

I'd vote for this line at first. Reason: For the alternative one would need to reverse engineer sergbuto's uboats and solve the current problems with them. Instead, for using normal german "destroyers" there should be no problem at all, and later we can look at changing them into subs or pseudo-subs, or adding AI torpedoes as intermediate step. Thus, the first thing is to get the concept working, and later we can fine tune it :up:

Hitman

06-29-11, 07:13 AM

BTW another wild idea ... does anyone know if there is an Ai specifically for torpedo boats? Even if they don't have AI torpedoes, the pattern of "high speed approach, shoot, turn around and escape" would be most useful if it exists. Also, is it possible to give airplane bomber AI to a sea unit? Again it uses the same pattern :hmmm:

SquareSteelBar

06-29-11, 09:04 AM

...1) Modify Serbutos AI-Sub so that it accepts Type=4 entry without CTD, probably by moving the whole Sub into the Sea folder. It is not required that it looks like a sub. In RL the subs didn't see each other...Just tried it and it is working [sub folder moved to Sea folder but there're no connings then]. Did you also change UnitType value in .mis file to 4? Maybe you missed that? -> reason for CTD

h.sie

06-29-11, 09:12 AM

@SSB: No, I did only change Type=4 in .cfg file, but not in .mis file (simply forgotten). Would be great if that were the explaination...........By the way: Thanks for your work.

Hitman

06-29-11, 10:07 AM

It seems that there are many different units available (I know old news for you), but has someone checked if all of them have some kind of AI attached?

;Warships
Type0=Patrol Craft
Type1=Corvette
Type2=Frigate
Type3=Destroyer Escort
Type4=Destroyer
Type5=Minesweeper
Type6=Light Cruiser
Type7=Heavy Cruiser
Type8=Escort Carrier
Type9=Fleet Carrier
Type10=Battlecruiser
Type11=Battleship
Type12=Minelayer
Type13=Auxiliary Cruiser

;Merchant ships
Type100=Replenishment
Type101=Tanker
Type102=Cargo
Type103=Troop Transport
Type104=Coastal Vessel
Type105=Environmental

;Submarine
Type200=Submarine
Type201=Replenishment Submarine
Type202=Missile Submarine
Type203=Environmental

;Air
Type300=Fighter
Type301=Bomber
Type302=Dive Bomber
Type303=Torpedo Bomber
Type304=Patrol
Type305=Helicopter
Type306=Environmental

;Land
Type400=Vehicle
Type401=Tank
Type402=Armored Personnel Carrier
Type403=Artillery
Type404=Antiaircraft
Type405=Missile
Type406=Airbase
Type407=Naval Base
Type408=Environmental

;Ordnance
Type500=Mine
Type501=AntiSub Net

urfisch

06-29-11, 02:38 PM

i am gettin definitely excited, guys...this might become one of the best single mods ever made for sh3.

:doh:

:rock:

h.sie

06-29-11, 02:55 PM

No reason to get exited.

With SSB's help I could now place a VIIA AI-Sub in the Sea folder and give him Type=4 and cmdr_AIFight (destroyer AI). But its behaviour did not change: It only shoots if closer than 2-3km. If distance > 3m: No reaction. It does not try to get closer to the convoy in order to shoot.

Then I tested a german destroyer Type36A. Same behaviour: He shooted at the merchants, but he did not try to get closer to the convoy. So the destroyer AI will not help us to get some AI-Subs, which approach to a convoy until a distance of 1-2km is reached and then fire.

Aircraft does attack merchants. From that aspect, their AI seems to be better, but I fear it won't work to apply Aircraft-AI to a ship.

So what's left??

One could place an AI-Sub directly on a waypoint of a convoy. But it will be very hard (impossible?) to find the memory position of a number of waypoint in RAM among thousands of waypoints.

SquareSteelBar

06-29-11, 04:02 PM

...But its behaviour did not change...That's what I also found but wanted to wait for a confirmation.
Ship AI seems to be not suitable for wolfpack purposes. BTW it looks like merchants use the same AI...

...So what's left??...Iceberg? :dead:

...But it will be very hard (impossible?) to find the memory position of a number of waypoint in RAM among thousands of waypoints.That's Uncle Carl's task... :haha:

LGN1

06-29-11, 04:29 PM

Hi,

that's weired :hmmm: In my tests I designated a C3 as type=4 and it started to attack me, change course in order to ram the boat, increased speed,... The only explanation I have is that the different behavior is only with respect to an enemy sub, but not a surface unit :06: An easy test would be to change the nationality of the AI sub to British and see whether it attacks the player submarine.

If the range of the guns is far enough and also the sensor settings then a destroyer should shoot at the target even if does not move, shouldn't it? Wouldn't that help at least?

Cheers, LGN1

PS: As Hitman has suggested one should maybe start a series of tests with different types and see whether anything changes with respect to ship vs. ship engagements.

Another resort might be to create a unit in the aircraft folder that looks like a u-boat... However, I don't know whether this can be done easily. One advantage of this approach would be that it might be possible to change the depth of u-boat.

h.sie

06-29-11, 05:09 PM

Ducimus

06-29-11, 06:13 PM

EDIT:

. Honestly, I don't think that swaskjer should take any offence from TDW's comment, as I don't believe it was intended to offend at all, but I understand he didn't like it.

TDW.. err . i mean Racerboy, has taken subtle jabs at S3D in many different threads, and craps on it every chance he gets. All the while laying on with an elitist asshat of an attitude.

I have no qualms calling it for what it is, and it is just that.

h.sie

06-30-11, 03:11 AM

Urfish: "if i can help, let me know".

Now I let you know! We need a unit that can be used to mimick a wolfpack attack. Details about the requirements, about current problems and possible solutions see the posts above. Do you have any experience regarding ship modelling, sensors, weapons and similar?

h.sie

urfisch

06-30-11, 04:07 AM

h.sie

06-30-11, 04:16 AM

if I had experience, I wouldn't have asked for help:D

urfisch

06-30-11, 07:05 AM

k...i will have a look into the files of the sea units and look for solutions or new ideas. but i cant say if my suggestions will be a great help.

to me it seems, the unit is stuck with its sensors at 2-3km. but good ai destroyers see you at >4km range and ai airplanes see you at more than 8km. also the normal "ai" watch crew of your boat discovers enemy ships at 8km or more and triggers the event "enemy sighted".

i am sure, the uboat does not "accept" the settings of its new applied ai. dont know, what the reason could be. the mentioned reason its an "underwater" unit cant be the clue, as you already defined it as a surface unit. there must be something hidden, we havent discovered so far.

but i will have a look.

h.sie

06-30-11, 07:10 AM

great. I'll also do some research and there are 1 or 2 other people doing some tests in the background.....

Anvart

06-30-11, 07:35 AM

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/3063/offtopicly.gif
...
In SH5 we have a tool made by the devs (Goblin Editor) that makes modding easy in some areas. Now what should interest you all is that this tool can be used for SH3 (I've used it to open/change files in SH3). Note: It cannot save to .dat files so save to a .sim, .val, or .zon file and copy over to .dat file. This tool makes it REALLY easy to see/adjust .zon files
I already wrote... do not need to buy SH5 for watching of SH3's files.
RB ... oops, sorry TDW, as always, offers a convoluted and irrational way... it's his way of thinking ...
For most modders his sentence sounds very strange (to put it mildly)...
S3D is an excellent tool that solves the vast majority of tasks in SH3... This tool allows you to edit existing and add missing classes and parameters very easy.
This is the best tool in the history of SH.
If TDW does not like S3D and he does not use S3D to view the files, even (which I doubt) ... it's his choice ... may be why some of his mods don't have absolute purity and perfection. :03:

@ skwasjer

S3D excellent tool!
S3D excellent tool!
S3D excellent tool!
S3D excellent tool!
S3D excellent tool!

:yeah:

Hitman

06-30-11, 08:24 AM

@LGN1: Yes, I think the same. The DD comes closer to your sub in order to ram or throw depth charges. But merchants are fighted with guns without approaching. (This is according to my observations. Cannot completely exclude errors)

So what possibilities are left?

1) I am pessimistic regarding Aircraft AI. But maybe someone of you wants to try that idea? Would be very kind.

2) Try to enlarge the "action radius" (operating range) of the Sergbuto AI-Sub to maybe 10km.

3) Maybe an acceptable solution would be (as you suggested) a modified destroyer. With the following properties:

- invisible (?)
- shoots without sound & fire
- limited ammo, should sink max. 1-2 ships.
- one hit should heavily damage or sink a merchant
- ammo should be similar to that used by Sergbutos Sub (no water splashes).

4) I thought about minefields, but that does not work because the player sub is also affected.

I remember that the GWX guys fixed the "long range" gunnery behaviour, so it is certain that longer shots are possible. Obviously the test with the destroyer indicates that the ship AI does just attack, and not actively try to close range with merchants, but this isn't so bad. In fact, if you can make invisible Uboats shoot at the convoy from larger ranges, up to 5-10km, some escorts would need to leave the area to engage them, which is exactly what we need.

The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that what we need is something that distracts the escorts for a while and gives the player a chance to get closer. Wether it is attained with invisible or visible uboats (Which you shouldn't anyway see normally) is the less important thing. More important would be to ensure that the escorts also do not see them, so they don't simply shoot with guns but instead are forced to leave the area to investigate.

skwasjer

06-30-11, 10:28 AM

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/3063/offtopicly.gif

I already wrote... do not need to buy SH5 for watching of SH3's files.
RB ... oops, sorry TDW, as always, offers a convoluted and irrational way... it's his way of thinking ...
For most modders his sentence sounds very strange (to put it mildly)...
S3D is an excellent tool that solves the vast majority of tasks in SH3... This tool allows you to edit existing and add missing classes and parameters very easy.
This is the best tool in the history of SH.
If TDW does not like S3D and he does not use S3D to view the files, even (which I doubt) ... it's his choice ... may be why some of his mods don't have absolute purity and perfection. :03:

@ skwasjer

S3D excellent tool!
S3D excellent tool!
S3D excellent tool!
S3D excellent tool!
S3D excellent tool!

:yeah:
And that means a lot coming from you. Thank you Anvart!

Stiebler

06-30-11, 10:44 AM

@H.sie:

I'm running through a career in NYGM with your V15G1 installed. Currently in January 1942. No bugs, so far.

However, there are a few issues, the most important first.

1. There is definitely a problem with the usage of the oxygen supply in submerged U-boats. I have made the following timings:
Type IIA: 17% oxygen reached after 5 1/4 hours. Then oxygen compressed supply 50% consumed after a further 15 1/4 hours.
Type VIIB: 17% oxygen after 5 1/2 hours. Oxygen supply 50% consumed after a further 20 hours.
Type IXC: 17% oxygen reached after 6 1/2 hours. Oxygen supply 50% consumed after a further 25 1/2 hours.

Let us consider these figures compared with standing orders in mid-1943 for the Bay of Biscay:
'Remain dived during passage. Surface only long enough to recharge your batteries.' (Affects Types VII and IX.)
The time to recharge batteries depended naturally on how far they had been exhausted. However, 4 hours on the surface would be an above average time for recharging in the Bay of Biscay.

This means that the oxygen supply of a VII U-boat in 1943 would involve 4 hours (or less) on the surface, 5 1/2 hours consuming natural oxygen in the U-boat, and then 14 1/2 hours using oxygen from the limited compressed air supply in V15G1, which could not be replaced. Thus, after just three days (maximum), all the compressed air reserve would be used up and the U-boat would have to return to base before it had even left the Bay of Biscay!

Therefore, there is definitely an error in the algorithm in V15G1. I do not know what the error is, but the oxygen supply does not comply with actual standing orders for U-boat submerged-passage across the Bay of Biscay in mid 1943.

Perhaps you have under-estimated the amount of compressed air cylinders, carried aboard a U-boat, or the oxygen content of each cylinder. Or maybe the natural air in the U-boat lasts longer than you think. Or maybe air could be partly compressed for release in the boat later - the U-boat used air compressors to drive out the water when surfacing, so the technology certainly was present.

This problem of the oxygen supply has other effects in the game too:
1. It is impossible to stay submerged for more than a few days in any patrol area which is close to aircraft (such as off the British coast). The air is exhausted too quickly.
2. Submerged attacks on a convoy can result in necessary use of the compressed air tanks in V15G1 before the U-boat can escape, even if it is not detected.
3. Submergence to avoid heavy fog results also in rapid consumption of the compressed air supply in V15G1.

I thought the earlier model of air supply in the earlier versions V15E was about right.

2. Problem with BdU messages.
The bands for the tonnage responses seem to be incorrect. For example:
a) Sending a radio status message to BdU with 0-10,000 tons sunk results in the message 'Don't sink neutral ships, amateur!' This message should be sent with negative tonnage sunk. Or, with 7,000 tons, the message is sometimes 'Show more courage - charge at the enemy!', which should be for very low tonnage sunk.
b) The message 'Return to base as directed' should be given a reason (ie, 'due to low fuel', 'due to heavy damage', 'out of torpedoes'), which would require three entries in en_menu.txt to replace the original one message. Actually, the 'out of torpedoes' message is useless, the player must already know that, so it would be more encouraging to have a message of congratulations instead.

These problems are easy to fix, I think. But the oxygen supply probably requires further discussion in SubSim.

However, no other problems seen, so far!

Stiebler.

Stiebler

06-30-11, 11:05 AM

In connection with the discussion of wolf-packs:

1. It may indeed be possible to modify aircraft from an airbase to behave like AI U-boats. However, I found some years ago that *scripted* aircraft behave like flying merchant ships. They fire guns, but will not carry out any other offensive action.

2. If you can beam-in U-boats close to a convoy's position, then presumably H.sie's code can be modified so that, with each passage of the code, the U-boat comes a little closer to the position of the convoy (or rather, to the position of the player U-boat after it reported position of the convoy). That is a standard algorithm, reduce distance between two latititudes and two longitudes. The player position report is definitely accessible in the SH3 code, I have seen it myself. (But is there a way of finding the AI U-boat's position?)

3. As I've mentioned earlier, you don't actually need the U-boats to fire torpedoes, just strike down merchants randomly by increasing their damage. How will anyone know the difference?

4. A related idea:
If you can beam U-boats close to the player's U-boat, we have a method to refuel a U-boat stranded because of lack of fuel. Code sequence: player U-boat makes signal; (perhaps a message from BdU); pause of 2-3 days; AI U-boat is beamed in; player U-boat's fuel is magically increased. Just as in real life (well, almost).

Stiebler.

h.sie

06-30-11, 11:19 AM

@Stiebler: Thanks for the issues report. I will look into it.

Oxygen: I am very sure it's not a bug in the algorithm itself, it's only a question of quantities (how much time takes O2 to go down to 17%, and how much O2 supply is stored in the sub). There are 2 constant numbers for each sub type that control these times and that could easily be changed / enlarged. A good idea to discuss this topic the in the forum.

BDU-Messages: Will look into it. Easy to fix.

h.sie

h.sie

06-30-11, 12:11 PM

@Stiebler: According to your initial idea, I divided the amount of total tonnage sunk into several "tonnage groups":

0 - 10000 t : group 1
10000 - 20000 t : group 2
20000 - 40000 t : group 3 and so on.

I assigned every group a certain chance for a motivation message, which gets lower for higher groups:

50% for group 1,
25% for group 2,
12,5% for group 3
6,25% for group 4 and so on

Would you suggest to completely disable these motivation messages for other groups than group 1 (0 - 10000 t) ??

reaper7

06-30-11, 12:19 PM

Been doing some test to see if I could get something working on the sub AI side of things.
As it stands the stock sub stops when in range of a merchant and then sits there doing nothing :nope:
Setting the aggressive nature to Elite seems to have no effect.
So I set the sub from type 200 (submarine) to type 4 (Destroyer) and moved it to the ship folder as mentioned earlier in the thread - effect was no CTD but sub still stopped and did nothing :hmmm:
So going into the sim file for that uboat (SSTypeIID) i deleted the cmdr_AIHumanSub enteries and created a new cmdr_AIShip entry, now on going to mission the sub changed course straight for the merchants at full speed :DL but didn't last long before it either Dove straight to the bottom and stayed there or was sunk due to merchant fire :hmmm:
Sub did not release torpedoes or fire its flak gun at the merchants.
Is there a link to Sergbuto AI sub, as stock don't fire as mentioned that I can do some more trials with ;)

Does the Torpedo boat fire torpedoes, if so could we clone that one and replace the ship model with a uboat model - It means it wont dive but it can at least manoeuvres and do torpedo runs ?
I'll have a go at that see what the results are :)

SquareSteelBar

06-30-11, 12:25 PM

...Is there a link to Sergbuto AI sub, as stock don't fire as mentioned that I can do some more trials with ;)As always: Plissken's ftp server....

Look for WolfpackMod_2.0

h.sie

06-30-11, 12:26 PM

@reaper: Thanks very much for trying to help. On my mediafire page you can find Sergbutos AI Subs reloaded.

Hitman

06-30-11, 12:35 PM

but didn't last long before it either Dove straight to the bottom and stayed there or was sunk due to merchant fire :hmmm:

You mean it actually can take the decission to dive? :o

Does the Torpedo boat fire torpedoes, if so could we clone that one and replace the ship model with a uboat model - It means it wont dive but it can at least manoeuvres and do torpedo runs ?

IIRC there is no Ai capable of firing torpedoes in SH3 (unlike in SH4, where torpedo ariplanes can and do throw them), but it's one of those things said in the past that could be worth rechecking again :hmmm:

Wolfstriked

06-30-11, 12:59 PM

Kinda embarrassed to ask this....when a player fired torpedo scores a hit on a ship it triggers the explosion and damage.Could this trigger be spawned with no actual vehicle doing the firing?

reaper7

06-30-11, 01:31 PM

You mean it actually can take the decission to dive? :o

IIRC there is no Ai capable of firing torpedoes in SH3 (unlike in SH4, where torpedo ariplanes can and do throw them), but it's one of those things said in the past that could be worth rechecking again :hmmm:

Not sure if it dove or not, did it on each mission load :hmmm: Could be due to damage from marchants, but sub did not dissapear from bottom.
But this is likely due to a conflict from using AIship and not AIHumanSub but worth investigating more.

Pity we have no AI torp firing units, did TDW get something like this working for SH5 with Planes dropping Torps :hmmm:

Hitman

06-30-11, 01:35 PM

Kinda embarrassed to ask this....when a player fired torpedo scores a hit on a ship it triggers the explosion and damage.Could this trigger be spawned with no actual vehicle doing the firing?

The idea is not bad, but our main objective from our player's point of view should be to have the escorts scatter and pursue for some time other "uboats", even more than creating damage to the convoy. Many times escorts got the uboats before they could fire and simply tried to push them far enough to preclude any shooting oportunity.

LGN1

06-30-11, 01:55 PM

@all: I don't think it's possible to 'beam' a unit inside the rendered area. It only works outside (approx. 36km from the player). Please correct me if I'm wrong, h.sie.

@Stiebler: Without snorkel no u-boat could be able to stay submerged for a few days. Please read the whole discussion we had in this thread. H.sie's numbers are derived/estimated from original documents about O2 supply, O2 consumption,... if you think they are wrong, please provide values that you think are more realistic (and your sources).

I don't know if you are aware of this, but you should use 'silent running' when being submerged. The oxygen will last longer in this case! Concerning the crossing of the Bay of Biscay: Maybe boats just surfaced and recharged the batteries twice a day :06: I can imagine several reasons for this:

- No oxygen supply needed
- In general a higher battery status gives you more safety because if a destroyer shows up you have more power left
- I'm not sure about this, but maybe it's better to be on the surface for shorter times and more often than for longer time and only once :hmmm:

In addition, IIRC, Hitman once mentioned that u-boats equipped with snorkels would snorkel twice a day to recharge the batteries, in the morning hours and evening hours. So, maybe they had the same strategy before the snorkel arrived.

Regards, LGN1

Wolfstriked

06-30-11, 02:25 PM

The idea is not bad, but our main objective from our player's point of view should be to have the escorts scatter and pursue for some time other "uboats", even more than creating damage to the convoy. Many times escorts got the uboats before they could fire and simply tried to push them far enough to preclude any shooting oportunity.

Is a spawned hit possible then???If so the then the sub spawned 3K away....wouldn't the dd track if its not at silent running?

h.sie

06-30-11, 04:00 PM

Regarding O2-Supply / Diving times

The algorithm works as intended. I choose the O2-supply/diving times as follows:

A = Diving time with renewable O2 from air in the sub.
B = Diving time with non-renewable O2 from bottles.
Sum = A+B = Max. total diving time

Type II: A = 5,50 h / B = 36,50 h / Sum = 42,00 h
Type VII: A = 6,25 h / B = 44,00 h / Sum = 50,25 h
Type IX: A = 7,00 h / B = 49,00 h / Sum = 56,00 h
Type XXI: A = 7,75 h / B = 98,00 h / Sum = 105,75 h

These values are for standard crew number and Standard operation mode (no silent-running nor repairs). For silent-running, the O2 consumption is only 70% compared to normal operation, so that we get the following max. total diving times:

Type II: Sum = 60 h
Type VII: Sum = 72 h
Type IX: Sum = 80 h
Type XXI: Sum = 150 h

The 72 h for the Type VII are according the value LGN1 found in an document about an VII Sub (don't remember the exact name). The other values are more or less extrapolated from the Type VII value.

@Stiebler:

1) The diving times I measured weeks ago differ a little bit from your measured values. Could this be related to NYGM/GWX differences?

2) A short surfacing with the type VII to load batteries and get fresh air, and you can dive for another 6 hours without using the O2 supply. If we won't find a consense here, I'll give you the Hex-Adressses of the values determining the times, so that you can adjust them to fit your personal taste.

3) Or, if you don't like the O2-Mod at all, I could provide you the source-code of the V15E version, which you like more. You could use that and build your own exe. This gives the people here an opportunity to choose between 2 different approaches. I, personally, prefer the current O2-supply solution, but I am flexible regarding fine-adjusting the diving-times, if we find some information about that.

h.sie

06-30-11, 04:30 PM

Regarding BDU-Messages:

1) The Mod not only analyses the total tonnage sunk category, it also analyses the difference in tonnage since the last status report. So if you are e.g. Kaleun Kretschmer and have a total tonnage of 80000t but then accidently sunk a neutral fishing boat of 10t, your tonnage sinks to 79990t and thus you get the message to not sink neutrals, even if your total tonnage (79990) is very high. This is okay in my opinion.

2) The higher the tonnage sunk, the lower a chance for receiving a motivation message, but even for 80000t there remains a little chance. Would you suggest to completely disable motivation messages for high tonnage?

3) Why do you suggest a congratulaton for no torpedoes left?? Maybe none of the torpedoes sunk a ship.

4) I didn't include a reason (e.g. "low fuel" or "hull damaged") for the "return to home base" command, since I think the kaleun is informed very well about the state of the hull and the remaining fuel. Additionally, I assumed that he did sent that information in his status report to BDU, so a reason for returning to base is redundant in my eyes, but could be added in further versions, if very much desired.

NGT

07-01-11, 04:59 AM

Regarding O2-Supply / Diving times

.................................................. ......................

3) Or, if you don't like the O2-Mod at all, I could provide you the source-code of the V15E version, which you like more. You could use that and build your own exe. This gives the people here an opportunity to choose between 2 different approaches. .........................................

Yes please, h.sie, provide it to Stiebler

Yes please, Stiebler, take it. . . :haha:

Really, I prefer earlier versions of V15 (Instead of V15G1) because of oxygen management. CO2 tweak was, for me, better.

I am "oblige" to use the V15G1 because of the given torpedoes in U-tankers (not provided from Stiebler's patch), but with O2 / CO2 tweak disable.

It is totally impossible (or offensive?) if I suggest to re-introduce the old CO2 tweak as an option? With restriction between them [CO2 or O2].

Thank you both for everything

(currently I do trials concerning AI U-boots, but no results for the moment)

Stiebler

07-01-11, 05:07 AM

@Hsie, LGN1.

1. Concerning the air supply.
I think it is unlikely that air consumption can be very different between NYGM and GWX or stock SH3. I cannot think of any cause for a difference.

As stated earlier, the problem I have with the air supply system in V15G1 is that it is not consistent with operational orders. It was definitely the case that Type VII and IX U-boats, if necessary, could patrol/move continuously submerged (excepting time on the surface to recharge batteries once per day) for a week or longer - without a schnorchel.

If this were not the case, it would have been impossible for U-boats to operate off any coastline patrolled continuously by aircraft, for example the east coast of the USA. Nor could they cross the Bay of Biscay in 1943, under constant air attack. This is the reality of the situation, and therefore H.sie's coding for the oxygen supply must be fitted around it. Incidentally, no U-boat would use 'silent-running' when Allied units were not close, because of the serious effect on crew morale.

I lack knowledge of whether the problem is with an under-estimate of the time 'natural' oxygen (obtained by venting the boat on the boat on the surface) could be consumed in the U-boat, or if the U-boat carried more compressed air cylinders than people believe, or if the 'natural' air could be partly compressed for storage. Perhaps all three estimates are in error. But something is definitely wrong. The U-boats would *not* surface twice in a day just to replenish their air. They surfaced because they needed to recharge batteries - once per day - and renewed their air at the same time.

H.sie, yes please, please send me code from V15E and hex-addresses of relevant variables for V15G1.

2. BdU Messages.
H.sie, now that I understand how the 'motivation' messages are being calculated, I have no problem with them.

However, I am receiving the message to stop sinking neutrals after I send a radio message with no ships sunk at all! (And also after sinking one small ship.) It seems there must be an error here somewhere.

Concerning the 'out of torpedoes' message, simply send the 'congratulations' that are appropriate for the tonnage already sunk.

Good luck with the wolf-packs!

Stiebler.

h.sie

07-01-11, 05:12 AM

@NGT: Due to very low time for modding and some burn-out, I decided from now on to only spend time for and include those mods into V15XYZ which I will personally use. Since I prefer the O2-Fix, I will not include the old alternative. Sorry.

In the last time, Stiebler and me had little different opinions regarding what is important and what not, and I suggested him to continue with his own project. Of course, we will still help each other as we did in the past. Two different exe-patch versions may be irritating, but have the advantage, that players can choose between his and my version.

Since Stiebler also prefers the old CO2 fix, maybe this is now reason enough for him to start his project......

h.sie

07-01-11, 07:35 AM

@Stiebler: Okay, I'll look into the BDU congrats mod this weekend. Also, I'll send you the sources of V15E3 and V15G1.

Thanks for explaining your view. Sounds plausible.

@ALL: Any other historical data available regarding diving-times?

Hitman

07-01-11, 07:48 AM

If I might suggest something, it could be useful to allow the player to choose in the fixes selector tool how many hours does he want the Uboat to be able to endure without silent running and without use of compressed O2. Or at least give two options, standard and double time.

:salute:

h.sie

07-01-11, 08:49 AM

@Hitman: Maybe a good idea /compromise. But Stiebler has to answer your question. From my point of view that is possible. He will soon know the addresses of the 4 variables for diving times.

2 suggestions:

a) invalid entries must be catched

b) use of sliders to avoid invalid entries. sliders for factor 1x to 5x for example.

Hitman

07-01-11, 08:57 AM

b) use of sliders to avoid invalid entries. sliders for factor 1x to 5x for example.

Ohh yess, that would indeed be awesome ... so there is a default and then supermod authors can recommend a setting for theirs :up:

h.sie

07-01-11, 09:01 AM

@Stiebler: If you really plan to change the OptionsSelector to adjust diving-times: Please contact me, because I have an important point and information that has to be considered. Thanks.

Stiebler

07-01-11, 10:11 AM

There is no technical difficulty about adding sliders to the Options Selector, except the fact that the dialog box is becoming rather crowded.

I have written to an old U-boat officer concerning air supply. He should know the answer, or be able to find one who does know the answer. Unfortunately, this will probably take some weeks.

If you really plan to change the OptionsSelector to adjust diving-times: Please contact me, because I have an important point and information that has to be considered. Thanks.
@H.sie, please send me a PM concerning these points.

Stiebler.

h.sie

07-01-11, 12:26 PM

@Stiebler: Great. You'll get PM soon.

@NGT, ALL: as a second compromise, additionally to the possibility to change divingtimes for the o2-mod, I could offer the following:

I could permanently (that means: cannot be disabled back to stock sh3 values) enlarge the max. diving-times (resulting from CO2 production) as follows:

type 2: from 30h to 60h
type 7: from 36h to 72h
type 9: from 40h to 80h
type21: from 75h(?) to 150h

but these times are not depending on silent-running or crew number or anything else. it's only a factor of 2 compared to stock sh3.

so one can choose to either use the o2-mod, or, if o2-mod is disabled, use these longer diving times.

POLL: Is this desired or not?

Wolfstriked

07-01-11, 12:48 PM

If I was a Uboat captain I would not surface just once a day though.I would surface at night and then surface every time the Oxygen was being used to fill boat with air and get a little bit of battery recharge done.I would then do a final surface with full battery recharge right before dawn so that as little of the oxygen tank is used.

EDIT.....which brings me to my next request.Is their a way to put TC at 1 when you start using oxygen?

tekai

07-01-11, 01:01 PM

@hsie and Stiebler

1. I remember playing AOD, where torpedoes were fired by planes and subs, you could be hit by them surfaced or at periscope depth. I was even attacked by an airplane with torpedoes, they missed me and killed a freighter in the convoy. Is it possible to include these options in sh3.exe or other files?

2. I'm using Sergbutos wolfpack mod with GWX and I can say it works great, here some experiences with this mod:
- AI subs are attacking merchants and escorts, in the last convoy 2 of them sunk 4 of 24 ships and damaged 3 units.
- Escorts then attacked the AI subs with all weapons and they even killed an AI sub with depthcharges.
- You can find damaged ships following the convoy so there are easy victims after an attack of AI subs.
- There is often a way to penetrate a convoy from the front, because some escorts are hunting the AI u-boats behind the convoy.
- It's possible to kill an AI sub with torpedoes when you miss your target...

But there are some points to advance:
- AI subs can be detected easily because they run always with maximum speed
- AI subs fire shells instead of torpedoes
- The installation of this mod is very difficult, it's very easy to do something wrong.

So why are you doing so much work when this mod is really working fine?
Which of your improvements will be better than Sergbutos mod?
May I remind that the AI subs already are doing enough damage, when you make them better, you'll not find targets worth to attack.

And for all who use Sergbutos mod, do we need a clean version of the menu_1024_768.ini to install your new mod?

Greetz
Tom

h.sie

07-01-11, 01:54 PM

@Wolfstriked: Good point. Will be added in V15G2 or H1

@tekai: I partially agree. See this post:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1692639&postcount=1678

Sergs AI Subs have nothing to do with menu1204.ini

h.sie

07-01-11, 02:13 PM

@Stiebler: What part of diving time do you want to change?

1) the part resulting from the O2 in the air of the sub (regenerative)

2) the part resulting from the O2-supply in bottles (non-regenerative)

3) both?

I looked in the code: For all 4 sub types and for each of those 2 parts above there is one variable to change, so that there are 8 variables in total to change.

I don't like this, and thus I will rewrite the code a little bit and implement a correction factor that results in an overall-change for all sub types. so it's easier for you to manipulate 1-2 instead of 4-8 variables.

Stiebler

07-01-11, 02:57 PM

H.sie said:
What part of diving time do you want to change?
1) the part resulting from the O2 in the air of the sub (regenerative)
2) the part resulting from the O2-supply in bottles (non-regenerative)
3) both?The short answer is that I do not know, yet.
I am ignorant of where the real problem lies.

However, I agree strongly with the idea of reducing the number of variables to just two, to include all U-boat types. My instinct on a slider would be to increase the time available from air in the U-boat (#1 above), and to reduce greatly the contribution from O2 in bottles (#2 above).

But really, I do not know which is correct. That is why I am seeking expert advice from outsiders. All that I know for sure is that something is wrong in the way (1) and (2) work together.

I could permanently (that means: cannot be disabled back to stock sh3 values) enlarge the max. diving-times (resulting from CO2 production)...
My vote is not to make this change at the present time - await further developments.

Wolfstriked said:
If I was a Uboat captain I would not surface just once a day though.I would surface at night and then surface every time the Oxygen was being used to fill boat with air and get a little bit of battery recharge done.I would then do a final surface with full battery recharge right before dawn so that as little of the oxygen tank is used.All this is true, and correct. But you would not want to surface frequently in areas strongly patrolled by aircraft, nor in thick fog. All submarines are at their most vulnerable as they surface. You would not want to do that more than you needed to.

Stiebler.