Sneakiness... SH3stock vs NYGM vs LSH vs ???

[89]

Hello,

I am looking at different mods and I know that different mods have different approaches to the (imho) most important and most fun aspect of fighting in a submarine - its ability to sneak up and sneak away.

I will structure the question thus:
If you have experience of different mods in SH3 (although comments on SH4/5 are also welcome) could you discuss/rate these separate aspects of sneakiness or generally express your opinion on the matter.

1. Daylight surface approach stealth (in each case below, lets say the submarine is in silent mode (3knts) and approaching at 90degrees angle to the Destroyer -for simplicity's sake)
2. Daylight periscope approach stealth
3. Night surface approach stealth
4. Night periscope approach stealth
5. ASDIC effectiveness

So, maybe you could rate each out of 10 or just comment on how different mods compare in this regard. Lets say that stock SH3 has rating of "5 out of 10" in each component how do you think other mods would score in these criteria. (For example, in my humble opinion GWX would score

GWX relative to SH3
1. Daylight surface approach stealth - 2
2. Daylight periscope approach stealth - 2
3. Night surface approach stealth - 7
4. Night periscope approach stealth - 8
5. ASDIC effectiveness - 9
My general comment for GWX would be that daylight stealth factor is too low (Ds spot you at over 20 km) and ADSDIC effectiveness is too high. - EDIT: I have since realised that this opinion was formed on a GWX with some gameplay files altered.)

Cheers!

[Sailor Steve]

Wow, that's a tough one. The only player who will be able to judge that fairly will be someone who has played all of them extensively. Is there such a person? Certainly not me.

[89]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Wow, that's a tough one. The only player who will be able to judge that fairly will be someone who has played all of them extensively. Is there such a person? Certainly not me.

Well, you do not need to play them all to participate. The yardstick is stock SH3 and then you could just comment on how the mod that you did play compares. I am not looking for an absolute objective conclusion, a few subjective opinions based on just one or two comparisons (eg SH3 stock vs LSH or SH4 or whatever else you played etc) would be great too!

[Fish In The Water]

Gotta say I agree with Steve regarding the 'toughness' of the question. I've mostly played GWX, although I am currently testing the new asdic mod in NYGM. What I like about it, is it promises to offer more of what you're asking about (i.e. enhanced 'sneakiness' in keeping with actual environmental conditions).

As I'm still early in the testing phase I can't really speak yet as to what degree it reaches that goal. But I do consider it a worthwhile effort, especially in contrast with GWX, (which while being quite good), in my opinion goes too far in neutralizing ambient ocean noise to the detriment of the player and in favor of an uber-AI.

[89]

Originally Posted by Fish In The Water

Gotta say I agree with Steve regarding the 'toughness' of the question. I've mostly played GWX, although I am currently testing the new asdic mod in NYGM. What I like about it, is it promises to offer more of what you're asking about (i.e. enhanced 'sneakiness' in keeping with actual environmental conditions).

As I'm still early in the testing phase I can't really speak yet as to what degree it reaches that goal. But I do consider it a worthwhile effort, especially in contrast with GWX, (which while being quite good), in my opinion goes too far in neutralizing ambient ocean noise to the detriment of the player and in favor of an uber-AI.

Its not meant to be a tough question, no one's neck is on the line But it would be a helpful resource to refer to when trying to choose the right flavour of mod out of all available. it is meant to be subjective, but rating each parameter of stealth with a number( relative to "5" of stock SH3) would also give us more structured discussion/opinion gathering.

Nobody is going to compare MrX's rating of 7 with MrY rating of 9. The numbers are there to allow Misters XYZ to quickly express their opinion on several parameters of stealth gameplay of one or more mods.

What year was your GWX test?

Any time after 1941 and it is very likely that the destroyer is radar equipped so spotting at 20 km (some 10.8 nm) is entirely reasonable.

Also the approach variables are almost infinite while there is an overwhelming tendancy amongst some players to blame the program for their own badly executed appoaches.

I would suggest that, if your H-D is big enough, create multiple installations configured as you like for comparison. You obviously have issues with the GWX Team's interpretation of the data, so try NYGM, LSH or WAC and determine which fits your preconcieved ideas best.

In my opinion, stock SH3 bears little resemblance to a simulation of the U-Boat war with regards to most of your perimeters but you are obviously free to differ.

I spend most of my SH3 time stalking the shallows off the British Isles in 1944-45 where GWX consistantly recreates situations that mirror the realities of the late innings in the U-Boat war so I am forced to disagree with your initial premise and your interpretation of the data. None of the variables that you are seeking to quantify are constants, either in stock or across the mega-mods. They certainly were not in real life as all depend on specific situations that may be relevant on one occasion but not another.

The modding forums contain a wealth of information dealing with the various modding team's rationale behind their work and are worth taking the time to peruse in detail.

[Jimbuna]

A fair post asking a fair question but boy what an excellent response Randomizer

@89

The only solution for you IMHO would be to install them all and make a decision based on your requirements, experiences and preferences.

SINK EM ALL!!

[89]

Originally Posted by Randomizer

What year was your GWX test?

I think it was 1939-40.

Also the approach variables are almost infinite while there is an overwhelming tendancy amongst some players to blame the program for their own badly executed appoaches.

- The approach variables to many things in life are infinite which does not stop people expressing their opinions, compare them and consider that activity to be interesting and worthwhile.
Besides, I did state that approach would be 90 degrees at 3 knots to lessen the infinty to at least a smaller one

But the main point is just to get a feel for peoples opinions on different mods and other SH games on this particular part of gameplay. Not to dispute the undeniable merit of GW (LSH, NY etc) team work. But simply get subjective opinions just on that part of gameplay.
If you or anybody feel that my "key criteria" are too stifling, feel free to add - as long as this stays on topic of realization of "stealth" in sub sims.
I believe that this is useful because -

I would suggest that, if your H-D is big enough, create multiple installations configured as you like for comparison.

I do not think that my opinions on this matter would satisfy me. I'm not an expert and value others' input. Secondly, it is quicker for me (and for other people in the future who would be using these grounds to evaluate the right mod/SH for them) to read this kind of thread than download GBs of patches and readmes on how to install them.

You obviously have issues with the GWX Team's interpretation of the data

Yes, I had limited experience of GWX that was supported by my reading of other people whose opinions I thought to be qualified - former Navy guy talk on detection at range, and just SH veterans. Generally I do like sims, but I hate "tough" AI that relies on cheating laws of physics to acheive toughness. Just my perference for computer sims- air combat, soccer, driving, now uboats (This is my subjective opinion, already expressed in the scale in my original post)

In my opinion, stock SH3 bears little resemblance to a simulation of the U-Boat war with regards to most of your perimeters .

IThe topic is about how easy it is to be detected - I've put SH3 right bang in the middle of the arbitrary 10 point scale. It never implied that SH3 was the etalon, just an arbitrary point of easiness of being detected.

I guess the scale simply goes like: Blind-----SH3stock------Gods vision, and the question is does the mod place on the left of SH3Stock or an the right and how far to the left/right. If you have experience of several SHs/mods - place THEM on that same scale in the *right* order. All purely subjective for each respondent

None of the variables that you are seeking to quantify are constants, either in stock or across the mega-mods. They certainly were not in real life as all depend on specific situations that may be relevant on one occasion but not another.

This is not engineering, this is a topic that would help people choose the mod/game that would suit their taste. Based on other (maybe more experienced) people's tastes. Tastes do not have constants. So just put an arbitary value which YOU feel corresponds best

The modding forums contain a wealth of information dealing with the various modding team's rationale behind their work and are worth taking the time to peruse in detail.

-
I am sure the answers are already there, but structured focus meta studies are useful thing. It is not practical to read several 50 page threads. Overview will help to understand where things are at an approximate level.

Originally Posted by jimbuna

The only solution for you IMHO would be to install them all and make a decision based on your requirements, experiences and preferences.

Not just for me, but for everybody with such question? Common, just answer the question instead - surely you had experience with at least several SH3 mods as well as SH4/5. You know what I'm trying to get at, if you feel that the question or the arbitrary scale needs altering - feel free, but no need to make its complicated when its quite simple poll

As stated, I believe your initial premise is invalid and the data you seek so subjective as to be useless but if you can get a consensus for your arbitrary "sneakyness" scores, more power too you.

An example of how the inherent variables make scoring useless is in one of my active careers I have had U-19 shadowing a Soviet convoy in the Black Sea in broad daylight and was never detected by the escorting destroyer. Since it's within visual range and I do not use the 16km atmosphere mod, I remained unseen as I attempted to get into an attack position. Eventually worsening weather and the onset of night ended the pursuit but for several hours I operated within visual range of merchants and a destroyer without being sighted. So, in my experiance, your blanket statement:

My general comment for GWX would be that daylight stealth factor is too low (Ds spot you at over 20 km)...

is manifestly inaccurate.

Also having your boat operating at 3 knots and 90 degrees to a target cannot be considered an approach unless the target is for all intents and purposes stopped.

It is well known that use of TC in the SH3-4 series greatly increases your vulnerability to detection so unless testing is conducted in real time any scores will likely be skewed accordingly.

Anyway, good luck getting the scores you want.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by 89

Not just for me, but for everybody with such question? Common, just answer the question instead - surely you had experience with at least several SH3 mods as well as SH4/5. You know what I'm trying to get at, if you feel that the question or the arbitrary scale needs altering - feel free, but no need to make its complicated when its quite simple poll

We'll settle for what we gave the community for free thanks

Originally Posted by jimbuna

We'll settle for what we gave the community for free thanks

What he stated and I'll add this.....
With all the Tools out there that allow even the newest of the new to set things as they wish?
Why even bother to ask others to hand you what you want?


At this point in time YOU have the ability to control your Game as You see fit.
If you don't like something? CHANGE IT in your Game.
Many do not like to compare the Mods any longer.
The Mods War was ended long ago and should not be Zombied with questions such as this.

Besides, I HATE questions that involve Math and thinking in buffer terms.

[89]

Ok so a discussion of the way stealth is implemented in various versions of Silent Hunter is based on false premises, is inaccurate, pointless and fruitless

I stated at least twice that it is the general area of the question that interests me, if the way question was setup felt wrong to anybody he was free to revise it... but no go haha

I also said that I am a newbie in subsims and do not trust my own judgement yet, so I was looking for opinions of the more experienced. I start to get the idea of what I should expect and what I should not in terms of uboat stealth, but wanted a discussion on what is the "Ideal", what part of it is realised in what version of Silent Hunter and how it is realised (remember I did not ask purely about SH3 mods, but other SHs too -SH4, maybe 5).

We'll settle for what we gave the community for free thanks

-What's this got to do with the topic? It's like several of you got sore or something. Don't be sore

This is a kind of answer I was hoping for: "

Hmm, no, if you want challenge, go for GWX! LSH3 is better for early war, in my opinion. Realistically, you could sail into the middle of a convoy on a dark night in '40 or '41 and sink all the ships you wanted, on the surface. And then make a quick getaway, also on the surface.

That tactic is suicide in GWX, but possible in LSH3.
I have not yet played late war with it (got SH4 recently, playing the U-boats there), but I have a feeling that punishing GWX AI is matching the reality quite close...

...That being said, after reading the Iron Coffins, U-Boat War Patrol, and Ace of Aces, which go into detail of early war, and Steel Boat, Iron Hearts, which deals with punishing planes and escorts in later war, '44 particularly.

" ( http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/t...3/m/2641047909 ) - a nicely balanced quick argument.

But here people (not all- maybe there is a small pressure group) get very touchy about discussion (seen by them as criticism) of their work (which is supurb and is very appreciated) and this leads to too much "patting each other on the back" all the time as nobody wants to upset the pressure group. And that should not be the case, imho- I love russian(?) proverb : "Truth is born in an argument". A very-very deep meaning it has.

At this point in time YOU have the ability to control your Game as You see fit.
If you don't like something? CHANGE IT in your Game.

When I asked about if it was possible to import stock SH3 gameplay settings into GWX in another thread, I rather quickly got stuck and was told by Jimbuna

You have a mammoth task ahead of you

- naturally I gave up How does one change GAMEPLAY, with what tools?

Peace

Note that your ideal response was posted in the UBI forums. Generally the community here at SubSim take a dim view of comparing the mega-mods against each other. Consider it a slap in the face of the modding teams who have spent countless hours creating the content we use to improve the entire series. For free.

The only person who can legitimately address your initial question is you, and only by trial and observation. If you cannot be bothered to see what's what first hand you should not be surprised when your inquiry is treated the way it was. Nobody here wants to re-open discussions and arguments that ended years ago and the acrimony that flowed from them. This is exactly where your subjective numerical scoring of the way which the modders addressed the issue of stealth was headed and so you got the responses above. This is why I consider your questions and methodology invalid and no doubt the reason for the curt responses from Jimbuna and Privateer, both long-time SH Modders of note and so worthy of respect.

As to your final question, the answers are in the modding threads and those in the know will likely address specific how-to questions in those forums when asked.

I am not a modder (of Silent Hunter anyway), just a consumer of mods and regular Forum member so the above is my opinion and offered without warranty. As you say, Peace. And Good Hunting...

[Fish In The Water]

Originally Posted by Randomizer

The only person who can legitimately address your initial question is you, and only by trial and observation.

Absolutely, and the same holds true for all of us.

Generally the community here at SubSim take a dim view of comparing the mega-mods against each other.

Perhaps, but anyone with a copy of Multi-SH3 is likely doing just that in private. This being the case, it is often difficult to avoid expressing your honest opinion when someone pointedly asks for it.

While I understand the concerns about re-opening old wounds from the past, (and even though I have no desire to see those battles waged again), I still think we would do well to be mindful that new members are not intimately aware of them.

Consider it a slap in the face of the modding teams who have spent countless hours creating the content we use to improve the entire series. For free.

I'm sorry but I don't view a public discussion as a "slap in the face." More to the point, I don't interpret the OP's intent as trying to slap anyone in the face. IIRC he has already indicated (in another thread) that GWX is his platform of choice. As such, he has already acknowledged its worth by making it his personal pre-eminent mega-mod.

How then is asking how to best tailor it to his ability and/or playing style being disrespectful? The only 'comparison' he seemed to be seeking was whether the AI from some other source might be more friendly for a new player.

If this is sacrilege then I guess I missed the point.

This is why I consider your questions and methodology invalid and no doubt the reason for the curt responses from Jimbuna and Privateer, both long-time SH Modders of note and so worthy of respect.

I also respect them both a great deal. But what is this thing called respect? And why do I get the impression it varies from person to person?

My definition of respect means I hold them in high esteem, I am grateful for their many contributions and I try not to poke them with a stick.

That being said, there still has to be a place for constructive criticism, provided the motive is to build rather than tear down. I don't believe in sacred cows, and as great as GWX is, nothing is perfect and it could always be improved.

Does this mean I'm trying to devalue all their hard work? Absolutely not! As I value and appreciate all their contributions plus I'm quite confident they did the very best they could at the time.

I say this because I know of their passion for the project and their desire to make it the best it can be. I also share this passion, and so any criticism I may have is not from a desire to tear down but rather from a desire to see the whole picture and to encourage people to try and make it better.

Surely we can separate the two, and allow the one without feeling the other is somehow under attack.

This is exactly where your subjective numerical scoring of the way which the modders addressed the issue of stealth was headed and so you got the responses above.

If we're going to pre-judge where something is headed, then we're basically closing our minds and shutting down communication.

I know motives are often hard to discern in a forum setting and as a result many people tend to be gunshy as a natural precaution. Sadly this is a tendency that often leads to the stifling of free flowing communication. I would hope that we could rise above this aspect of human nature and consider virtually all topics open for civil discussion.

Just my two cents. Nothing personal in any of this, so please don't be offended.

As you say, Peace. And Good Hunting...

And to you as well good sir!

Had 89 asked something along the lines of "What of the super mods provides the greatest stealth for a surface U-Boat? By day? By night?" I would never have responded as I did and probably not replied at all since the vast majority of my SH3 time has been in GWX.

Rather the question was more like "On a scale of 1 to 10, with 5 being Stock and GWX being 2, how do the other Mods compare regarding surfaced daytime stealth?"

The latter is not just a different question, it's a different type of question and one that seeks to open cans of worms better left closed. At least in my opinion. I did not pretend to speak for Jimbuna or Privateer but got a sense that neither liked the way the thread was going and will apologize if I am mistaken. Both are well able to take care of themselves.

Discussion regarding features and design philosophies is not the same as numerical scoring and building some silly list from best to worse. Likewise comparing the mods using variable, arbitrary and subjective perimeters without even trying them out first hand hardly respects the creative process and effort involved producing even minor mods.

Edit

I need to add that at no time have I thought that 89 intended offence or controversy. I too have tried to remain civil while remaining in disagreement.