The Israeli Chamber Orchestra will break with tradition to play a work by Hitler's fa

Gerald · 07-25-11, 08:02 PM

The Israeli Chamber Orchestra will break with tradition to play a work by Hitler's favourite composer, Richard Wagner, in Germany.

Roberto Paternostro will conduct classical piece Siegfried Idyll on Tuesday at Bayreuth's Wagner festival.

It is rare for Israeli musicians to play the anti-Semitic composer's work, which was appropriated by the Nazis.

Paternostro said that while Wagner's ideology was "terrible", the aim was "to divide the man from his art".

An unofficial ban on Wagner was introduced in 1938 by the Palestine Orchestra - now the Israel Philharmonic - after Jews were attacked by the Nazis in Germany.

Musical director Paternostro said it had been "a very difficult and rocky path" but that "there wasn't a moment when I had any doubts about this project".

"I know that in Israel this isn't accepted," added Paternostro, who is Jewish and whose mother survived the holocaust.

"But many people have told me it's time we confront Wagner, especially those in the younger generation."

It was too soon for the orchestra to perform Wagner in Israel and they had not rehearsed the work there, he added.
Standing ovation

Hitler was a passionate admirer of the work of Wagner - who lived from 1813 to 1883 - as well as his theories on Germanic racial purity.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-14272620

Note: 25 July 2011 Last updated at 08:27 GMT

Takeda Shingen · 07-25-11, 08:10 PM

The Siegfried Iydll is a relatively minor piece. Also, Hitler took what he liked from Wagner (namely the anti-semitism) and left out the things that he found repugnant, like the anarchism of his youth and the loyalty to the status quo of his later years. In fact, the Wagner presented by the Nazis was, like much of what was presented as culturally 'German', a selectively skewed version of the man and his music.

In short, there is very little in the way of anti-semetism in Wagner's collective work; certainly no more than can be found in caricature of Shylock in The Merchant of Venice. The damnation of Richard Wagner was that he happened to be admired by Adolf Hitler.

Gerald · 07-25-11, 08:16 PM

Yes, and so he used a maximum of Wagner, the music is quite heavy and dramatic ... and do not belong to my favorites.

Takeda Shingen · 07-25-11, 08:17 PM

Whereas Richard Wagner is my favorite composer. I can appreciate the music without admiring the man.

Gerald · 07-25-11, 08:28 PM

Rachmaninoff, I prefer better, certainly not German, but great piece of music.

TLAM Strike · 07-25-11, 09:55 PM

Well Wagner did inspire the name of Tom Cruse's plot to kill Hitler.

frau kaleun · 07-25-11, 10:05 PM

I've tried to like Wagner, I really have. Well, to the extent that I listen to about as much of him as I can stand at any one time and then give up. Certain excerpts from his works played as strictly orchestral pieces, I like. But overall I'm in agreement with the quote about him that's usually attributed to Mark Twain: "He has wonderful moments, and terrible quarter hours."

My experience of Wagner usually goes something like this:

*listening to overture*

"Oh hey this sounds pretty good. I think I'm gonna like this one."

*30 minutes later*

"Oh dear god let it end..."

Kinda sad since I'm fond of the heldentenor voices... and Wagner certainly seems to be the premier showcase for them. I had the Ring cycle taped off PBS once with every intention of watching it... and I couldn't get through it.

Stealth Hunter · 07-25-11, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vendor

Yes, and so he used a maximum of Wagner, the music is quite heavy and dramatic ... and do not belong to my favorites.

The reason why Wagner's so dramatic and heavy is because of the themes he was dealing with in his music. Old Nordic and European legends and epic tales, etc. It's supposed to be dramatic. Equally this applies to his operas. Operas are supposed to be dramatic works of art.

Back on topic, the only thing Hitler's admiration of Wagner proves is that, despite his infamy as the leader of Nazi-Germany, he had great taste in music.

Skybird · 07-26-11, 04:06 AM

With Wagner it is like with Shakespeare for me. There are the pieces that are beautiful and fragile and wonderful like there are the quotes you use to give and remember. But then there is the rest, the burden of heavy-heavy "heaviness" and somewhat bombastic shelling by sound and word that makes me wish like Frau Kaleun: "When does it end?" Yes, both men were great names in their field of arts. But I like only a few pieces, fragments, of their works. But these are enough to make me respect them as said great names.

However, in Germany there will be discussions again as if the decision by the Israeli chamber orchestra needs any sanctionising or patronising by German "experts" on all kinds of matters.

Regarding Nordic epic tales and German sagas, I like them, I have read them often when being a boy and teen, and I still know them. Very... Klingon

Gerald · 07-26-11, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

The reason why Wagner's so dramatic and heavy is because of the themes he was dealing with in his music. Old Nordic and European legends and epic tales, etc. It's supposed to be dramatic. Equally this applies to his operas. Operas are supposed to be dramatic works of art.

Back on topic, the only thing Hitler's admiration of Wagner proves is that, despite his infamy as the leader of Nazi-Germany, he had great taste in music.

True, he used music as a tool for his fantasies.

Oberon · 07-26-11, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vendor

Rachmaninoff, I prefer better, certainly not German, but great piece of music.

Same, Wagner is good but hard to follow all the way through, Rachmaninoff flows.
Ippolitov-Ivanov has some nice work too.

Where did our classical music thread go?

Skybird · 07-26-11, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vendor

Rachmaninoff, I prefer better, certainly not German, but great piece of music.

3rd piano concert, Argerich, Berlin RSO, Chailly, 1982.

Completely kills me every time I listen to it. And I listen to it often. Not music - an explosion. Argerich did it best, playing like a supernova. Superb orchestra job also.

Skybird · 07-26-11, 07:40 AM

Da war doch was...

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...t=Rachmaninoff

Feuer Frei! · 07-26-11, 07:57 AM

2007! 2 years before i found SUBSIM!

Gerald · 07-26-11, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Da war doch was...

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...t=Rachmaninoff

Sie müssen Ihre Themen seiner besseren nehmen, da Sie oben geschrieben, es ist eine wesentliche Voraussetzung, damit vielleicht Rachmaninoff Faden "lebendig"

07-25-11, 08:02 PM	#1
Gerald SUBSIM Newsman Join Date: May 2008 Location: Close to sea Posts: 24,254 Downloads: 553 Uploads: 0	The Israeli Chamber Orchestra will break with tradition to play a work by Hitler's fa The Israeli Chamber Orchestra will break with tradition to play a work by Hitler's favourite composer, Richard Wagner, in Germany. Roberto Paternostro will conduct classical piece Siegfried Idyll on Tuesday at Bayreuth's Wagner festival. It is rare for Israeli musicians to play the anti-Semitic composer's work, which was appropriated by the Nazis. Paternostro said that while Wagner's ideology was "terrible", the aim was "to divide the man from his art". An unofficial ban on Wagner was introduced in 1938 by the Palestine Orchestra - now the Israel Philharmonic - after Jews were attacked by the Nazis in Germany. Musical director Paternostro said it had been "a very difficult and rocky path" but that "there wasn't a moment when I had any doubts about this project". "I know that in Israel this isn't accepted," added Paternostro, who is Jewish and whose mother survived the holocaust. "But many people have told me it's time we confront Wagner, especially those in the younger generation." It was too soon for the orchestra to perform Wagner in Israel and they had not rehearsed the work there, he added. Standing ovation Hitler was a passionate admirer of the work of Wagner - who lived from 1813 to 1883 - as well as his theories on Germanic racial purity. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-14272620 Note: 25 July 2011 Last updated at 08:27 GMT __________________ Nothing in life is to be feard,it is only to be understood. Marie Curie

07-25-11, 08:16 PM	#3
Gerald SUBSIM Newsman Join Date: May 2008 Location: Close to sea Posts: 24,254 Downloads: 553 Uploads: 0	Yes, and so he used a maximum of Wagner, the music is quite heavy and dramatic ... and do not belong to my favorites. __________________ Nothing in life is to be feard,it is only to be understood. Marie Curie

07-25-11, 08:28 PM	#5
Gerald SUBSIM Newsman Join Date: May 2008 Location: Close to sea Posts: 24,254 Downloads: 553 Uploads: 0	Rachmaninoff, I prefer better, certainly not German, but great piece of music. __________________ Nothing in life is to be feard,it is only to be understood. Marie Curie

07-25-11, 09:55 PM	#6
TLAM Strike Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 8,633 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 6	Well Wagner did inspire the name of Tom Cruse's plot to kill Hitler. __________________

07-26-11, 04:06 AM	#9
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,645 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	With Wagner it is like with Shakespeare for me. There are the pieces that are beautiful and fragile and wonderful like there are the quotes you use to give and remember. But then there is the rest, the burden of heavy-heavy "heaviness" and somewhat bombastic shelling by sound and word that makes me wish like Frau Kaleun: "When does it end?" Yes, both men were great names in their field of arts. But I like only a few pieces, fragments, of their works. But these are enough to make me respect them as said great names. However, in Germany there will be discussions again as if the decision by the Israeli chamber orchestra needs any sanctionising or patronising by German "experts" on all kinds of matters. Regarding Nordic epic tales and German sagas, I like them, I have read them often when being a boy and teen, and I still know them. Very... Klingon __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

07-25-11, 08:10 PM	#2
Takeda Shingen Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2000 Posts: 8,643 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	The Siegfried Iydll is a relatively minor piece. Also, Hitler took what he liked from Wagner (namely the anti-semitism) and left out the things that he found repugnant, like the anarchism of his youth and the loyalty to the status quo of his later years. In fact, the Wagner presented by the Nazis was, like much of what was presented as culturally 'German', a selectively skewed version of the man and his music. In short, there is very little in the way of anti-semetism in Wagner's collective work; certainly no more than can be found in caricature of Shylock in The Merchant of Venice. The damnation of Richard Wagner was that he happened to be admired by Adolf Hitler.

07-25-11, 08:17 PM	#4
Takeda Shingen Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2000 Posts: 8,643 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	Whereas Richard Wagner is my favorite composer. I can appreciate the music without admiring the man.

07-25-11, 10:05 PM	#7
frau kaleun Rear Admiral Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Skyri--oh who are we kidding, I'm probably at Lowe's. Again. Posts: 12,706 Downloads: 168 Uploads: 0	I've tried to like Wagner, I really have. Well, to the extent that I listen to about as much of him as I can stand at any one time and then give up. Certain excerpts from his works played as strictly orchestral pieces, I like. But overall I'm in agreement with the quote about him that's usually attributed to Mark Twain: "He has wonderful moments, and terrible quarter hours." My experience of Wagner usually goes something like this: listening to overture "Oh hey this sounds pretty good. I think I'm gonna like this one." 30 minutes later "Oh dear god let it end..." Kinda sad since I'm fond of the heldentenor voices... and Wagner certainly seems to be the premier showcase for them. I had the Ring cycle taped off PBS once with every intention of watching it... and I couldn't get through it.

07-26-11, 07:40 AM	#13
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,645 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Da war doch was... http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...t=Rachmaninoff __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

07-26-11, 07:57 AM	#14
Feuer Frei! Navy Seal Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Valhalla Posts: 5,295 Downloads: 141 Uploads: 17	2007! 2 years before i found SUBSIM! __________________ "History is the lies that the victors agree on"- Napoleon LINK TO MY SH 3 MODS