Features in SH1 and Aces That Have Since "Disappeared"

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Subnuts

SH1 and Aces had a random campaign in the vein of SH3 and SH4. None of them are truly "dynamic" (like Falcon 4) in that sinking aircraft carriers or large tankers doesn't alter the outcome of the war one bit.

Since the SH series is about recreating the historical experience of being a sub driver during WW2, it is pretty clear that whatever actions you take cannot influence the outcome of the war. Otherwise we would be playing a fictional scenario and this is what most players don't want.

Falcon 4 didin't have only a dynamic campaign, it simulated an entire war theater on air, land and sea. And it could do it precisely because there were no constraints as to the outcome of the conflict. So your actions actually had effects on the ongoing campaign.

The SH series never had this kind of freedom. So what we get for all pratical purposes is a dynamic campaign that is nothing more than a glorified random mission generator. So options that in SH I had to be set explicitely (such as time of mission, weather conditions etc...) are now in SH 3 created dynamically by the game engine without user intervention. You still get to sail on rough seas, or by clear weather. But like real life sub captains you get no say as to how the weather will be during your mission. Is this a step backwards ? In terms of realism no.
In terms of feature creep yes. But feature creep is the bane of software, so Ubisoft has done well by not throwing everything and the kitchen sink inside SH 3 and/or SH 4.

[floundericiousWA]

Originally Posted by goldorak

Since the SH series is about recreating the historical experience of being a sub driver during WW2, it is pretty clear that whatever actions you take cannot influence the outcome of the war. Otherwise we would be playing a fictional scenario and this is what most players don't want.

Well...we ARE playing a fictional scenario in SH3/SH4, no?

Actually I want the chance to vicariously live the experience of a WWII submarine captain/kaleun with many of the strategic evolutions taking place while I play...and the chance, just the slightest chance, that my success or failure will make a difference in the trajectory of the war in my chosen theater.

If I sink the three or four British CVs in and around the NorthEast Atlantic within six months, does that impact the battle for Malta?

If I manage to sink 15 or 20 of the really big T3 tankers in 1940, does that cause a difference in the battle of britain?

If I sink a significant number of destroyers in convoy attacks, does that weaken escorts in the atlantic convoy system?

If I sink several passenger transports during 1942/43, does that impact the planning/execution of Overlord?

wash, rinse, repeat for the pacific theater with the fleet boats!

[Kapitanleutnant]

Features in SH1 and Aces That Have Since "Disappeared"

• The ability to play without an internent connection.

Welcome to ~The World of Tomorrow~

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by floundericiousWA

Well...we ARE playing a fictional scenario in SH3/SH4, no?

Actually I want the chance to vicariously live the experience of a WWII submarine captain/kaleun with many of the strategic evolutions taking place while I play...and the chance, just the slightest chance, that my success or failure will make a difference in the trajectory of the war in my chosen theater.

If I sink the three or four British CVs in and around the NorthEast Atlantic within six months, does that impact the battle for Malta?

If I manage to sink 15 or 20 of the really big T3 tankers in 1940, does that cause a difference in the battle of britain?

If I sink a significant number of destroyers in convoy attacks, does that weaken escorts in the atlantic convoy system?

If I sink several passenger transports during 1942/43, does that impact the planning/execution of Overlord?

wash, rinse, repeat for the pacific theater with the fleet boats!

No you're not playing a fictional scenario.
And the reason is that whatever you do, and no matter how many ships you sink the strategic conditions WILL NOT CHANGE.
The course of the war is set in stone, from the moment you sail out in 1939 until 1945.
The missions are generated on historically correct data and there is nothing you can do about it.
Thats why as good as it is, the dynamic campaign in SH 3 is just a very very impressive random mission generator.

[floundericiousWA]

Originally Posted by goldorak

No you're not playing a fictional scenario.
And the reason is that whatever you do, and no matter how many ships you sink the strategic conditions WILL NOT CHANGE.
The course of the war is set in stone, from the moment you sail out in 1939 until 1945.
The missions are generated on historically correct data and there is nothing you can do about it.
Thats why as good as it is, the dynamic campaign in SH 3 is just a very very impressive random mission generator.

Bear with me, I was picking on you before regarding the use of the term "fictional."

The STRATEGIC course of the war is fixed in SH3.

The experience of the player, however, is not based on some historical table of which sub was sent on what mission on what date. It is fictitious and approximates reality by sending you "where BdU would have sent a sub from your flotilla at the time you go on patrol." It's "like history."

Once I'm on patrol in U-xxxx (pick your number), it's a sandbox. I can simulate going anywhere that the sub model can "physically" navigate.

[Platapus]

[QUOTE=Subnuts;1246196]

• Chlorine gas from flooding reaching the batteries.

Just a nit to pick until it bleeds.

Chlorine gas would come FROM the batteries, not reaching to the batteries.

[razark]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Perhaps bad wording on my part. The point being that saltwater floods the boat, and when the water reaches the batteries, they generate chlorine, making it vital that you surface.

[Task Force]

I liked SH1... got it in a combo box with Flanker 2.1 years ago... just found it... just to get it to run...
Can you get sh1 to work in w 7 64 bit...

[razark]

Originally Posted by Task Force

I liked SH1... got it in a combo box with Flanker 2.1 years ago... just found it... just to get it to run...

That's how I got mine, as well. I've tried it in DOSBox on my XP computer, but it keeps crashing. I know I've run it before.

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by razark

That's how I got mine, as well. I've tried it in DOSBox on my XP computer, but it keeps crashing. I know I've run it before.

Uhm that shouldn't happen.
SH I runs great on dos box 0.72. I don't know about the new version though.

[razark]

Originally Posted by goldorak

Uhm that shouldn't happen.
SH I runs great on dos box 0.72. I don't know about the new version though.

Yup, version 0.72. Like I said, I had it running before. I'll perhaps try a reinstall soon and see if that goes.

[Chef]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Sad, isn't it?

Makes me want to get a bottle of whiskey and a shotgun.

It seems that in today's world, gameplay is inversely proportional to graphics eye candy.

I had AoD and SH1 with all of the patrol disks once upon a time. *sniffle*

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Chef

It seems that in today's world, gameplay is inversely proportional to graphics eye candy.

In todays world, graphical eyecandy IS the gameplay.

edit:

speaking of which, If i remember correctly, neither AOD, nor SH1 had an external camera like we do in SH3, and SH4.

[[MIA]Prophet]

Originally Posted by goldorak

No you're not playing a fictional scenario.
And the reason is that whatever you do, and no matter how many ships you sink the strategic conditions WILL NOT CHANGE.
The course of the war is set in stone, from the moment you sail out in 1939 until 1945.
The missions are generated on historically correct data and there is nothing you can do about it.
Thats why as good as it is, the dynamic campaign in SH 3 is just a very very impressive random mission generator.

This is entirely something I'm feeling that people are missing from the entirely of the situation they're placed in with these games.

The only way to have a truly dynamic campaign where your ideas of shifting the balance of power to an Axis/quicker Allied victory is to create an entirely different war, perhaps set on a different planet, yet with remarkably similar weaponry.

The complaints lodge are not without some validity to them, but my time with going from SH3 to SH4 brought about a shift in the way I think about games, and how I enjoy them. We, as game playing individuals, are entirely at the discretion of our supposed masters, and will only be that way so long as we continue to allow them to be. I find while, with every sequel, and every new game coming out, the availability of the internet, and the dedication of players has created sites like this, and with it the insurmountable complaints of players and their narrow minded responses.

Simply put: the magnitude of the undertaking coming along with games today is spectacularly overlooked. Modeling for video games; creating and implementing is something that is neither to be overlooked, nor taken for granted. Remember, for every individual piece that has to be introduced to the game, it has to be created by hand from an individual, then passed along to another individual to digitally render the image, then add a number of layers, and the list goes on and on.

To create something that would be pixelated, or otherwise sub-par, in today's environment, is a death sentence for both the IP, and the company itself. While it would be nice to see all these sorts of things, placed into a game, with the option of every single one being added and removed at the whim of the player, we have to understand that as not the 10k said, but the most likely 500 or less players; the small margin hardcore enthusiast hold is something that can be easily overlooked, and without major repercussions.

To summarize; We must understand, and have the ability to understand, why decisions to remove, or leave out, simplistic and often minor additions to the game, are simply for the better.

And to satiate my natural urge to be a jerk: If you don't like it, mod it.\

Edit: tl;dr

[difool2]

Originally Posted by dcb

Plus I remember in the old SH1, I was also credited for the ships I damaged, but did not sink.

Not in campaign-I once got reprimanded after returning to port after I emptied my entire clip of torps at a Yamato (and got tons of duds & preemies, but some hits).

I would have sworn that we get chlorine gas in SH3/4-say it ain't so Joe!

Right now I have a convoy set up (SH4) south of Korea in about 300 feet of water. I know I stand an excellent chance of getting away afterwards if I can get below the omnipresent thermocline before the escorts get too close. It was always a gamble if the essobee was there or not in SH1...