At this moment, 150 years ago...

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Betonov

True. Last year 4 Brits and an Aussie had an Austro-Hungarian among them on English soil
And the A-H descendant survived

That's because there wasn't any Serbs around.

[Betonov]

Originally Posted by Oberon

That's because there wasn't any Serbs around.

Well, you need a Serb that would spit in my face, I'd start kicking him when a Russian would start kicking me and then a German would start kicking me and a Frechman would come in with a riot shield and the German would smack a Belgian to the ground to get around that shield and then a Brit would start kicking the German.

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by Betonov

Well, you need a Serb that would spit in my face, I'd start kicking him when a Russian would start kicking me and then a German would start kicking me and a Frechman would come in with a riot shield and the German would smack a Belgian to the ground to get around that shield and then a Brit would start kicking the German.

To be followed by a Turk kicking the Brit and an Italian who kicks the Austro Hungarian, a Japanese who kicks remote parts of the German (what ever that would be) and an American who is too late to get much of the party (would we actually have to make a distinction whether it's a northern or southern US boy as this seem to be two different countries in some people's eyes... maybe it was a self righteous Northerner riding on the back of a suppressed and exploited Southerner. ) . After a short pause everybody will be at it again for round two with a few people changing sides and some having difficulties to decide on which side to stay throughout the brawl.
Or in short: I hate you all!

[Bilge_Rat]

[Betonov]

And at that point, nothing remains of York

[mapuc]

And I who have high thoughts about Lincoln. Have always seen him as one of the best President USA had.

Markus

[Bilge_Rat]

Abraham Lincoln, the One President All of Them Want to Be More Like

While confronting Gen. Douglas MacArthur, Harry S. Truman sent an aide to the Library of Congress to research Lincoln’s firing of Gen. George B. McClellan. Dwight D. Eisenhower kept a set of Lincoln’s collected works in the Oval Office and painted a portrait of him that hung in the Cabinet Room.

Sitting in the Lincoln Bedroom during the Vietnam War, Lyndon B. Johnson looked up at a picture and said, “I sure hope I have better generals than he did.” Richard M. Nixon, at age 12, was given a picture of Lincoln that hung over his bed. During his own Vietnam trials, he made a spontaneous nighttime visit to the Lincoln Memorial.

Ronald Reagan reported a couple of instances when his dog, Rex, acted oddly, which “nearly made me join the believers” that Lincoln’s ghost haunted the mansion. Bill Clinton, of course, got in trouble for inviting political donors to sleep in the Lincoln Bedroom, but once told Mr. Winik that he wanted to write his own Lincoln biography.

Few presidents revered Lincoln more than George W. Bush, who read 14 biographies of him while president and still has two paintings of Lincoln in his office in Dallas. “There was more of an affinity, or looking to Lincoln, than other presidents because Bush was a wartime president,” said Peter H. Wehner, who as an aide to Mr. Bush organized a meeting for him with Lincoln scholars like Mr. Winik.

They sit in the second-floor bedroom named for him. They stare at his picture on the walls or his bust in the Oval Office. They study his speeches, read his letters, glance at the copy of the Emancipation Proclamation under glass. Some have even wondered if they saw or felt his ghost. In their darkest moments, especially during war or crisis, they ask themselves what Lincoln would do. Some find an answer; others do not.

“He remains an inspiration for presidents whether they’re Republican or Democrat,” said Jay Winik, author of “April 1865,” a book about the final days of the Civil War. “When they look at him, he almost defies explanation. He sort of lives somewhere in the stratosphere.”

Mark K. Updegrove, director of the Lyndon B. Johnson Presidential Library and Museum, said Lincoln remained a touchstone for those who followed. “There’s no president I’ve interviewed — Ford, Carter, Bush 41, Clinton, Bush 43 — who hasn’t said that it was Lincoln that they thought of first and foremost as an inspiration during the most trying days of their presidencies,” Mr. Updegrove said. “He is unquestionably the standard.”

not a bad standard to have.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/15/us...like.html?_r=0

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

We've had this conversation before, and you conveniently forget. It was the South that fired the opening shots.

You might want to reread the reasons why the southern states seceded in the first place. Not the reasons they've come up with since, but the reasons they themselves gave at the time.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...9&postcount=44

You've said that before. Opinion is nice, but you have yet to prove your case. Or even really try.

I've pointed out before that Lincoln was the product of the generation who wrote the Constitution. The Founders were forced to compromise over the question of slave importation and Southern States' representation. They believed that the country could not survive unless all 13 states were united, and Lincoln firmly believed the same. If you don't look at it within that context then your beliefs about him and his reasons are heavily biased.

Steve, it's not an opinion, ever hear of ex parte merryman? Exactly.Lincoln acted unconstitutionally and thus as a tyrant.Lincoln jailed many of his critics.Actually, I recall he jailed those who published the book by one of his political prisoners once he was freed.Some hero, some president, no he acted as a tyrant would, therefore he was a tyrant.Facts are stubborn things.Call it an opinion, but documented facts of his actions show who he was .While the mindless sheep see him as some hero.Lincoln was a terrible tyrant, the end.

Lincoln was not alive during the revolution nor was he an adult, he was child in rural podunk IL that had no clue.Sure, he made something of himself but he was not the benevolent man.I swear the way some people are about Lincoln is same way many Germans would be about Hitler if war had ended differently for them.The blind would think he was still some great figure, SMH.


I will clarify my argument about the cause of the war.Sure, south fired first but Lincoln CHOSE to launch a massive, bloody war after tying the souths hands of the south.Increased tariffs on cotton etc. Why were these tariffs passed(albeit morrill tariff came about under previous admin, it was increased under Lincoln) was because his industrial masters in the north wanted this Basically, Lincoln forced the hand of the south, and reacted as a tyrant once they answered his provocation.

The war was not directly about slavery, it was about not having a centralized power in a whole other part of the country tell them how to live.Yes, at the time slavery was part of southern society and held dear as it was imperative to the economy.Slavery was on the way out, it's a fact.Sure, it would have been around a bit longer but it would have died out.The was of northern aggression was unnecessary and nothing more than Lincoln's lust for power and dominance of a part of the country that refused to suddenly give up their way of life.No man has the right to do that, something mos tof us agree on.

I love our country and what it was meant to be but it's garbage now because of some things that have happened in last century, but fully understand why the south wanted out, I wish we could get out now, it just is not worth it anymore for most of us.Too many people, too much centralized power.We should go our ways, stay friendly and all but go different ways so we have a real right to self determination .Much like a bad relationship, time comes to cut ties.Sadly we have tyrants in waiting who would go Lincoln's route so we are stuck with what is the equivalent of a fat, lazy, haggy wife we are miserable with.

The south was no different than the founders, they wanted to be free from abusive, centralized power who was threatening their way of life.The northern industrialists pushed the war, Lincoln used the moral cause of abolishing slavery as his cause to get many to join the fighter.The tactic of getting humans to not think with logic or rationality but emotion is not a new one, sadly it still works.

I will close by saying one good thing about Lincoln was he did not favor the abuse and revenge of reconstruction, he wanted a post civil war america to reunite and move on.Even Hitler had some admirable qualities I suppose.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

To be followed by a Turk kicking the Brit and an Italian who kicks the Austro Hungarian, a Japanese who kicks remote parts of the German (what ever that would be) and an American who is too late to get much of the party (would we actually have to make a distinction whether it's a northern or southern US boy as this seem to be two different countries in some people's eyes... maybe it was a self righteous Northerner riding on the back of a suppressed and exploited Southerner. ) . After a short pause everybody will be at it again for round two with a few people changing sides and some having difficulties to decide on which side to stay throughout the brawl.
Or in short: I hate you all!

[Betonov]

And food for thought.
Say the USA and CSA existed side by side. How would history unfold.

If the south had won and gained independence, what are the chances those two sides would come in to conflict again (history teaches us the chances were good)
Spanish American war, would a divided nation be able to win that conflict and
WWI, wouldn't Germany influence one side against the other to keep them out of Europe and one side would join Central powers out of sheer spite for the other and we'd have another trench system along the Mason-Dixon line.

He could have been a tyrant, but the USA and CSA would be less today than just the USA

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Betonov

And food for thought.
Say the USA and CSA existed side by side. How would history unfold.

If the south had won and gained independence, what are the chances those two sides would come in to conflict again (history teaches us the chances were good)
Spanish American war, would a divided nation be able to win that conflict and
WWI, wouldn't Germany influence one side against the other to keep them out of Europe and one side would join Central powers out of sheer spite for the other and we'd have another trench system along the Mason-Dixon line.

He could have been a tyrant, but the USA and CSA would be less today than just the USA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Victory_Series

[Betonov]

Originally Posted by Oberon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Victory_Series

I really got to get my hands on a copy.
I love alternate history.

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

Originally Posted by Betonov

I really got to get my hands on a copy.
I love alternate history.

I've read those and a few other books by Turtledove, all of which are well written and very much worth reading.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Oberon

You could say that for any man who started any war, the people behind the American revolution for one. Besides, as Steve has already pointed out, the Confederate forces fired the first shots.
And war was inevitable, between two great forces of movement, if it had not taken place under Lincoln, it would have under someone else.


The south only suffers because it refuses to acknowledge its defeat. There are people so stuck to 'The Lost Cause' that they have kept open the wounds of a war that ended 150 years ago. For goodness sake, World War One ended a hundred years ago and we've long since forgiven each other, only the shells of war remain to blight the landscape. The English Civil War has long since faded into memory and although its after-effects still echo within the British governmental system, there are not bands of parliamentarians or monarchists arguing at each other on the internet, or if there are they are few and far between.
For the love of God, let it go already.



It was a civil war, they are rarely civil.

In short, this comes across as little more than butthurt over a war that you, your parents or your parents parents never fought in, if I, a Brit, can forgive Germany for the Second World War, if I can make friends with people of a country who killed one of my great-grandfathers and severely wounded the other, then you can certainly pull your head out of your backside and let the events of a war that took place over a hundred years ago be consigned where they belong.
The past.

Oh, and I need to end this with a Lincoln pic:

No, the founders were justified and sorry but the British tied their hands with their tyranny, much as Lincoln and the North did with the South.Rather arrogant to think people should just accept the status quo when it is unacceptable. Colonists had a right to self determination and not to be ruled, same for the south.

South has suffered and generations later still suffers due to Lincoln's War of Aggression.Many one affluent southerns lost everything and thus had nothing to pass on.Suddenly, generations of wealthy and even just normal people who had something in this world, were left destitute and it set in motion several genertions of poverty and all the ills that come along with it.Many were already poor and were made even more so.That along with the physical and emotional scars and the nearly one million dead on both sides, it really is one of the greatest crimes in history and he was punished for it.However, his legacy at the minumum should be questioned and not celebrated as it is.Very sad so many Presidents talk of their admiration of him, but then again most presidents we have had last 50 or so years have traits and tendencies of a tyrant, especially Bush and Obama.

I would not expect you to understand as you are not a southerner, you are from a people who still have a monarch(ceremonial) and have a much more subjugated mentality than we do.Thus why your nation is more of a police state and just accept things, which is sad because it is a lovely place overall.

Forgiving a foreign enemy is a bit easier than forgiving your supposed countryman.Especially when THE man responsible for so much misery and death is celebrated the way he is.An grandiose memorial, an aircraft carrier, countless fanbois and a populace who is ignorant of the terror and cruelty of this man.

Also, sure don't know anyone who was alive there, but stories run deep of how the events of that time caused much pain in the family.Also, we are now in a moment not unlike time prior to the civil war.We have a bloated, abusive centralized government who overtaxes us and condones the denigration and eradication of many cultural and social institutions.I understand how they felt and they were not wrong.Opinion aside, government does not have the right to treat us they way they do.

Sad fact is, we don't work as one country and will never work again, this country is a failure.We are too diverse, no uniting bonds.Sorry but I feel not bond or connection to someone from New York, New Jersey, etc I feel a bond with my southern brothers, that is it.Truth is, many in other parts feel the same.We want different things, different cultures etc, we would be better off to split and just stay friendly but the greed and thirst for power would never allow it.Best we can do right now is just not accept the tyranny and try to win elections but I fully understand how the southerners of that time felt and as said, they were not wrong.

[razark]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

I would not expect you to understand as you are not a southerner...

As someone born and raised in the south, let me say "Shut up and stop making us look bad."