Nazi symbols and "immersion": boundaries?

[Rockin Robbins]

My only personal negative position in the use of Nazi flags, SS ensignia, or possibly other specific Nazi-related items I might not be thinking of is in items used as personal identification, signature banners, language, such as "Sieg Heil" being used as the traditional opening to someone's posts, etc.

As far as the swastika having benign applications, that is just a straw man because the Nazi flag has definite colors, proportions, thickness of line, etc, which render it an unmistakable and unique symbol of Nazi thuggery. Nobody would mistake the pre-WWII Thunderbirds' swastika for a Nazi symbol, or any of the other swastikas put forward as establishing the harmlessness of the Nazi flag.

That swastika or Nazi flag, when used as part of a ship or submarine, flying from a flagpole in port as part of the game says nothing of the personal identification of the person playing the game. It is part of the environment within which he plays and is historically justified so far as my opinion is concerned. The German nation has other views on that, but even they nuance their position. However you take a position, there will be uncomfortable but permitted usages which will always be in question.

However, when you affect a signature picture, or an icon, or a name on the board, which incorporates Nazi symbolism, you are saying something about yourself and your opinion of those symbols. Showing yourself as a smiling officer, decorated by the Fuhrer, pretty wife in uniform under a flowing Nazi flag with manly Latin slogans is glorifying yourself in the reflected "glory" of the Reich. That says things to people that you might not want to say. I say, and Ducimus said, and the German people say, and U-Boat veterans say that use of Nazi symbolism is over the line. Why? Because Nazi ideology is being used as personal identification, implying that you personally endorse that horse squeeze.

As far as characterizing certain emblems as male bovine excrement, that was a quote from Ducimus and does not imply that I have that opinion. I personally don't have a problem with historically accurate uniforms, medals, flags or insignia within the game. I have a problem when people personally tie themselves to those symbols in a way that implies agreement with those values. The signatures I called attention to do just that, just as someone with the handle "JewKiller" would. NOBODY would consent to that, but the flag in the signature says the same thing.

Many have perverted my position to pretend I am saying things I am not. I realize it is not done honestly, but just to provoke heat. My position is born of the opinions of the survivors of the war who actually ran the U-Boats, of the citizens of the country responsible for 100 million deaths. They agree with me. Actually it is I who agree with them.

If you were to be in the same room with a U-Boat sailor and spouted nonsense about how the Nazi flag is just a piece of cloth that is harmless and you think it is cool to use it as your personally identifying signature picture on the Internet, you would not be in the same room for long. You might not be in the same WORLD for long. You would never forget what he said and did next, I promise.

When I say U-Boat veterans savagely deny any heroism on their part during the war, I am vastly understating their position and their passion.

@razark: Where the hell did all these ants come from????

[rubenandthejets]

Whenever I see the rising sun ensign of the IJN I think of the black vans spewing anti foriegner propaganda at 140 decibels.

That flag has been adopted by the Japanese revisionists and ultra nationalists, the people who deny the Rape of Nanking and every year push for changes to the history textbooks to paint the "Great Pacific War"
in ever rosier hues.

It is an appropriate symbol in the game, a historical combat simulator.

At least Germany came to terms with its past and made ammends. Japan is still for the most part ingnorant or in denial.

[Rockin Robbins]

I think both Japan and Germany stand as shining examples that no nations are irredeemable, that war need not be about conquest, and that the losers of the wars need not to be destroyed utterly, but given the means and guidance to raise themselves up again in the family of nations and then be left alone to stand on their own, once again the equal to the United States, France, China, Russia, the United Kingdom or any other country on earth.

And they both stand now as first-rate citizens, needing to apologize to no one, contributing to the welfare of all nations, seeking to subjugate none, both respecting and being respected without taint from their past.

You know, Germany and Japan won World War II in a much more profound way than if they had been able to obtain military victory. Both are a hundred times greater a nation than they would have been had their rogue leaders been able to establish their twisted will.

It could well have been Britain, or France, or the United States who came under the domination of a slavering totalitarian despot instead of Germany. Hitlerism had very little to do with Germany, except that Germany was a suitable host for the disease.

I believe the United States might have been a good host as well, but Germany with her hyperinflation, past defeat in WWI, Versailles reparations, rampant socialist and communist elements and anti-Jewish regions had the same effect on Nazism as gasoline on a fire. I believe other countries could have burned as well.

I wonder if another country, defeated in war, dedicated to such despicable aims, would have become the great nation either Germany or Japan has. Their people are magnificent!

[AVGWarhawk]

At least Germany came to terms with its past and made ammends. Japan is still for the most part ingnorant or in denial.

Japan did just recently apologize for the Batan Death March. Interesting they did so.

[Akula4745]

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

I have a very simple solution that has never been brought up or tried, to settle this once and for all.

Pray tell what, FW?

[FIREWALL]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Japan did just recently apologize for the Batan Death March. Interesting they did so.

Their scared ****less with NK lobing missles their direction.

[FIREWALL]

Originally Posted by Akula4745

Pray tell what, FW?

Let NEAL STEVENS the owner of this website do a poll for 30 days so a broad numbership can vote.

No posting. Just 1 vote. And end this once and for all.


Simple and Final.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

Let NEAL STEVENS the owner of this website do a poll for 30 days so a broad numbership can vote.

No posting. Just 1 vote. And end this once and for all.


Simple and Final.

Sounds like a plan.

[Highbury]

But a vote on what? If swastikas will be allowed on the forums? What about mods containing swastikas? What about the Rising Sun.. what about the asinine objectors we are sure to have that will say the <insert your choice of flag or symbol here> is offensive?

Do we have a vote for each issue?

The truth is, it is a non-issue. What we mod into our own games is up to us, nobody else has to see it nor should they care. As for what goes on the forums, (this debate DID start over someone having a swastika in a recruiting poster as a sig) if you think someone's sig or post is in bad taste then report it. Let those who run the site decide that. They are smart people, I trust them to make a good choice. I also know that if I object to their decision it is a gaming forum.. not real life...

[razark]

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

Let NEAL STEVENS the owner of this website do a poll for 30 days so a broad numbership can vote.

Sounds good to me. The thought had crossed my mind as well. Unless Neal wants to make a declaration.

Razark

[sunvalleyslim]

Can't say I've seen any pro nazism posted here.....Not that it has, just haven't seen any. We are all here to simulate War and Submarines. I have grown up here in the U.S. seeing the Nazi Symbols. I have always thought the German Uniforms were some of the best looking. I think the Greman Nazi Flag was a beautiful design.
However I have never believed what Hilter and Nazi Germany did was right. I am only here in my own home and computer simulating what it was to be a U-Boat Kapt. To me if you have a problem with the symbols of a long ago defeated country maybe you shouldn't play the game simply because you are simulating death and destruction.......I don't think SH3 is going to make a bunch of NeoNazis out of us......I think the sanity of players here is far greater than kids playing "GTA".....merely MHO

[Armistead]

This is so silly.

Someone needs to make a politically correct German sub....and be creative....just use smiley faces.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by sunvalleyslim

I have always thought the German Uniforms were some of the best looking.

Me too. Hugo Boss designed them.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Armistead

This is so silly.

Someone needs to make a politically correct German sub....and be creative....just use smiley faces.

I still vote for teddy bears.

Look, voting on right and wrong IS just plain silly. I don't seek to restrict anybody's behavior, just to set the table on how we'll think about these things. This is a good group, not in need of set rules, which will always have some kind of defect or quibbling point. Oftentimes the rule is much worse than the problem it seeks to address.

I don't see a large quantity of questionable signatures or posts or attitudes here. The Grey Wolves, for instance on one of their GWX4 preview videos, chose to put a pawprint on their German flag. In other instances they have used swastikas, but clearly in historically appropriate ways.

But democracy doesn't work for right and wrong. Democracy is two cats and a mouse voting over what's for dinner. Right and wrong is established by authority, which alone can protect the rights of minorities.

If the lawmaking authority is popularly elected, the government is called a republic: the best form of government so far devised. Democracy sucks. It would suck here. Better to let Neal make up his mind and make a rule than have a silly poll of self-interest and call it an informed and responsible vote.

For myself, I'm not asking for any new rules. All I want is for people to think about how they look when they paint themselves red and black with strange angular symbols used in the past for systematic genocide and intimidation. I want them to think about how they wish to be viewed.

I do not wish to require them to make the right decision.

[Joe S]

When I was a young child, say 6 or 8 years old , the sight of the swastika would bring a wave of anxiety over me. It was associated with Hitler and the Nazis and all the evil that they did as I learned from my parents and what I saw on TV. My interest in WWII ultimately led to me collecting World War Two militaria, including Third Reich swords, medals, etc. Now, the sight of the swastika no longer results in the emotional reaction that I once had. Occasionally, however, I get a relapse of that reaction and it is amazing how that sense of fear or dread can still reappear. At any rate, this is an individual choice. If you are offended by the sight of the Hakenkreuz then by all means dont use it. If it does not offend you, then download it and use it if you want to. As long as you do not wear it publicly or flaunt it in someone else's face, I dont think its anybody elses business. I also build model planes and tanks, etc, and see nothing at all wrong with putting swastika decals on a model where historically accurate.

We all have to be sensitive to those who lost everything due to the Nazis and have some respect for the victims of their hatred. The publishers of the sim obviously did not want the use of the Swastica to be an issue so they left it out, which is exactly what I would have done.

One more comment, a great many books on the subject state that U-boat crews who were captured and interrogated were almost always described as fanatical Nazis. I dont know that I believe that they all were fanatical Nazis, but that is how the British apparently viewed them. Joe S