Nazi symbols and "immersion": boundaries?

[FIREWALL]

I have a very simple solution that has never been brought up or tried, to settle this once and for all.

[Akula4745]

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

I have a very simple solution that has never been brought up or tried, to settle this once and for all.

Pray tell what, FW?

[FIREWALL]

Originally Posted by Akula4745

Pray tell what, FW?

Let NEAL STEVENS the owner of this website do a poll for 30 days so a broad numbership can vote.

No posting. Just 1 vote. And end this once and for all.


Simple and Final.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

Let NEAL STEVENS the owner of this website do a poll for 30 days so a broad numbership can vote.

No posting. Just 1 vote. And end this once and for all.


Simple and Final.

Sounds like a plan.

[Highbury]

But a vote on what? If swastikas will be allowed on the forums? What about mods containing swastikas? What about the Rising Sun.. what about the asinine objectors we are sure to have that will say the <insert your choice of flag or symbol here> is offensive?

Do we have a vote for each issue?

The truth is, it is a non-issue. What we mod into our own games is up to us, nobody else has to see it nor should they care. As for what goes on the forums, (this debate DID start over someone having a swastika in a recruiting poster as a sig) if you think someone's sig or post is in bad taste then report it. Let those who run the site decide that. They are smart people, I trust them to make a good choice. I also know that if I object to their decision it is a gaming forum.. not real life...

[razark]

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

Let NEAL STEVENS the owner of this website do a poll for 30 days so a broad numbership can vote.

Sounds good to me. The thought had crossed my mind as well. Unless Neal wants to make a declaration.

Razark

[sunvalleyslim]

Can't say I've seen any pro nazism posted here.....Not that it has, just haven't seen any. We are all here to simulate War and Submarines. I have grown up here in the U.S. seeing the Nazi Symbols. I have always thought the German Uniforms were some of the best looking. I think the Greman Nazi Flag was a beautiful design.
However I have never believed what Hilter and Nazi Germany did was right. I am only here in my own home and computer simulating what it was to be a U-Boat Kapt. To me if you have a problem with the symbols of a long ago defeated country maybe you shouldn't play the game simply because you are simulating death and destruction.......I don't think SH3 is going to make a bunch of NeoNazis out of us......I think the sanity of players here is far greater than kids playing "GTA".....merely MHO

[Armistead]

This is so silly.

Someone needs to make a politically correct German sub....and be creative....just use smiley faces.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Armistead

This is so silly.

Someone needs to make a politically correct German sub....and be creative....just use smiley faces.

I still vote for teddy bears.

Look, voting on right and wrong IS just plain silly. I don't seek to restrict anybody's behavior, just to set the table on how we'll think about these things. This is a good group, not in need of set rules, which will always have some kind of defect or quibbling point. Oftentimes the rule is much worse than the problem it seeks to address.

I don't see a large quantity of questionable signatures or posts or attitudes here. The Grey Wolves, for instance on one of their GWX4 preview videos, chose to put a pawprint on their German flag. In other instances they have used swastikas, but clearly in historically appropriate ways.

But democracy doesn't work for right and wrong. Democracy is two cats and a mouse voting over what's for dinner. Right and wrong is established by authority, which alone can protect the rights of minorities.

If the lawmaking authority is popularly elected, the government is called a republic: the best form of government so far devised. Democracy sucks. It would suck here. Better to let Neal make up his mind and make a rule than have a silly poll of self-interest and call it an informed and responsible vote.

For myself, I'm not asking for any new rules. All I want is for people to think about how they look when they paint themselves red and black with strange angular symbols used in the past for systematic genocide and intimidation. I want them to think about how they wish to be viewed.

I do not wish to require them to make the right decision.

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by Armistead

This is so silly.

Someone needs to make a politically correct German sub....and be creative....just use smiley faces.

Groovy man...

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by sunvalleyslim

I have always thought the German Uniforms were some of the best looking.

Me too. Hugo Boss designed them.

[Joe S]

When I was a young child, say 6 or 8 years old , the sight of the swastika would bring a wave of anxiety over me. It was associated with Hitler and the Nazis and all the evil that they did as I learned from my parents and what I saw on TV. My interest in WWII ultimately led to me collecting World War Two militaria, including Third Reich swords, medals, etc. Now, the sight of the swastika no longer results in the emotional reaction that I once had. Occasionally, however, I get a relapse of that reaction and it is amazing how that sense of fear or dread can still reappear. At any rate, this is an individual choice. If you are offended by the sight of the Hakenkreuz then by all means dont use it. If it does not offend you, then download it and use it if you want to. As long as you do not wear it publicly or flaunt it in someone else's face, I dont think its anybody elses business. I also build model planes and tanks, etc, and see nothing at all wrong with putting swastika decals on a model where historically accurate.

We all have to be sensitive to those who lost everything due to the Nazis and have some respect for the victims of their hatred. The publishers of the sim obviously did not want the use of the Swastica to be an issue so they left it out, which is exactly what I would have done.

One more comment, a great many books on the subject state that U-boat crews who were captured and interrogated were almost always described as fanatical Nazis. I dont know that I believe that they all were fanatical Nazis, but that is how the British apparently viewed them. Joe S

[FIREWALL]

Personally, I don't see the Swastika any more or less offensive than the Rising Sun or Hammer & Sickle when used in a Mod or Role Playing use.

Hell ! In 5yrs there will probably be more flags or insignia's on the list in new Sims.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Armistead

You think this is bad. I remember Sid Meyer's Gettysburg years ago and the many emblems squads used, but how can you take the confederate flag out of a Civil War game. To me it's the same, how can you take any true emblems of war out of a historically correct game.

I collect Civil War, am a Civil War re-enactor. I respect Southern history..as history. Simply, I have no problem with any emblem in itself. I have two original battleflags hanging in my basement along with all the stuff I collect and dig up. But you'll never see a confederate flag hanging in my front yard or a southern rights bumper sticker on my car. I accept we lost the war of Northern Aggresssion.

However, with marketing, placing games on shelves I guess you have to be correct, so we couldn't blame Ubi for that, but as long as people use emblems historically correct there should be no problems with modders adding them .

Well said, I agree. And as a Southerner, I think it's obvious that the Civil War was a plainly BAD idea for the South, and although the rebel flag has a kind of cool appeal, I don't feel compelled to defend the South's actions. Actually, Sam Houston was the only man in Texas with any brains in 1861.

Houston was governor of Texas when the Confederates, in convention, declared its withdrawal from the Union. The convention officially informed the governor of the act, and that they had instructed their appointed delegates to ask for the admission of Texas into the Southern Confederacy. To this communication Houston promptly replied, in substance, that the convention had transcended its delegated powers; that its acts were usurpations; and that he should consider it his duty to act as governor until the legislature of the State should take action in the matter, regardless of all alleged changes in the political relations of the State. This reply produced great excitement. Believing the governor was about to assemble the militia of the State to resist the convention, that body passed an ordinance (March 8, 1861) which defied his authority. Then the venerable Houston, in a stirring address to the people, recounted his services and his trials, and complained bitterly of the " usurpations " of the convention, which, he said, " had transferred the people, like sheep from the shambles, from the Union to an unlawful league." Loving Texas too well to do aught that should kindle civil war upon its soil, he said he should not attempt, under the circumstances, to exercise his authority as governor, nor would he take the oath of allegiance to the Southern Confederacy. He took no part in public life after this act.

Originally Posted by razark

Sounds good to me. The thought had crossed my mind as well. Unless Neal wants to make a declaration.

Razark

I would rather not make any kind of declaration other than the current one we have laid out in the past on this subject, and that is, the nazi symbol is not a problem as long as it is in a historical context and not a political statement.

I prefer to see less of Hitler's logo, but that's just me. As long as we do not have an abundance of people displaying large swastikas as political statements, we should be ok.


I also know this subject, as well as many others, will be raised from time to time. Some people will have strong feelings about it but as long as we all agree to discuss it civilly, we're good.

thx
Neal

[sunvalleyslim]

Thanks Neal.............IMHO,....... sound advice