Nazi symbols and "immersion": boundaries?

[Rockin Robbins]

Here we are again, the Kapitan_Phillips thread hijackers (sorry), but we had a spirited and really important discussion going on.

One group of people say the swastika is legitimate when used in personal signatures, including self-portraits as a smiling German captain under the Nazi flag with girlfriend/wife/other, glorious medals, manly Latin slogan, etc. The war is over and these symbols have no power.

Another group of people, to which I am an unwilling but still enthusiastic member, having been convinced by a friend I respect greatly who lost his family to the Nazis in the Ukraine, says that so long as there are neo-Nazis out there sincerely and with violence advocating the anti Jewish, gypsy, slav, heck, anybody not "Aryan" other than themselves, "cleanse the world of these subhumans" philosophy, that Nazi symbols mean something ugly and present. We should not use them out of respect for those who are still targeted for destruction by vicious people using those symbols as a rallying point.

One argument is the "immersion" argument. "How can we take our U-Boat mission seriously if our flag has a teddy bear in the middle of it? (I put it there just to tweak 'em) OK, I see your point. Kill the teddy bear and use whatever Charlie Chaplin used in his movie. That was cool!

If you look at it closely, the immersion argument is a crock of bull. I can't say it so I'm going to have to quote Ducimus, author of Trigger Maru Overhauled.

The object of attention in these games, is, and should be, the submarine and what it does. No more, no less. Now there has to be some ambiance to draw the player in for immersion sakes, however, there is a line there.

For example, i have conciously, avoided waving the American flag in TMO. Except for the background movie by Captain Cox in the main menu, you won't find national or patriotic references in TMO, at least, none that i placed. From my forum sig, to the intro screen of TMO, i have avoided displaying the American Flag. Why? It's certainly NOT because i'm unpatriotic. Far from it. Ive served for 7 years, and if called upon again, i would go without hesitation or complaint (but certainly with a feeling of dread, but thats another story). Why then? Because when you start displaying flags and other nationalistic symbols, now your getting political. And since the submarine sim community is a world wide thing, i wanted to avoid smearing my countries flag in their faces. Blatant flag waving turns people off, and i think it dishonors the colors when one waves it around like a high school cheer leaders set of pom pom's.

...And my question to you guys is, having played TMO, would you not agree that ive made it as immersive and authentic feeling , and yet, left political ideology, (male bovine excrement), and references out of it?

I think so, and that is why, when people think using the swaztika and Kreigsmarine references (awards/dec's/uniforms/etc) makes the game more immersive - i call (male bovine excrement)!

I think that's a valuable sentiment and I agree, although I'm not in a position to have been able to say it myself.

[SteamWake]

Not this again

[Task Force]

In my opinion, the swastika means nothing other than... well as symbol of a nation that fell years ago... It had other meaning before the war.

Heres what wikipedia has to say about the Swastika.

The swastika (from Sanskrit svástika स्वस्तिक) is an equilateral cross with its arms bent at right angles, in either right-facing (卐) form or its mirrored left-facing (卍) form. Archaeological evidence of swastika-shaped ornaments dates from the Neolithic period. It occurs mainly in the modern day culture of India, sometimes as a geometrical motif and sometimes as a religious symbol. It remains widely used in Eastern religions / Dharmic religion such as Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism.
Though once commonly used all over much of the world without stigma, because of its iconic usage in Nazi Germany the symbol has become stigmatized in the Western world, and it has notably been outlawed in Germany if used as symbol of Nazism. Usage of the sign by religious groups is tolerated. Many modern far right and neo-nazi groups such as Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging or Russian National Unity use stylised swastikas or similar symbols.

so it use to be a good thing, a religious symbol, then it was turnt into the National german workers partys symbol.

[Highbury]

Inside the game, yes. Outside of the game, no. I don't need immersion on the forums.

I change flags to the proper ones in game, but would never put one in my forum signature. Just my flotilla emblem as my boat historically had none. On the German Captain's desk I changed the photo to one of actress Ellen Schwanneke, that way I had a period authentic picture of an attractive German girl on my desk, as would seem appropriate, but at the same time knowing she is the famous "Girl who said no to Hitler".

@ Task Force: You have good points, but I am sure every person on this forum knows that the Swastika did not originate with the Nazis. When you put the Swastika in a white circle on a red flag and it can ONLY mean one thing. That is what RR is referring to.

@ Rockin' Robbins re Ducimus quote: I haven't played TMO much, but I think that flag waving Americanism is MORE appropriate then Nazism in the decor of boats, offices etc IN GAME. We know that by and large the U Boat crews were not fanatical Nazis. They were patriots, as were the Americans of the time. The difference is, Old Glory did not change for a political party or ideal. It was the same flag before and after the war. To honor the American flag at that time was not to honor the Republicans and FDR but America, and honoring the German Swastika flag was honoring Hitler and the Nazi Party, not just Germany (although even a non-Nazi patriot legally only had that flag at the time, not a totally fair comparison). Big difference IMO BUT, I do feel both are appropriate IN GAME, only one is appropriate out of game. And not because they won the war, just because the flag only meant country.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

That time is not here for the Nazis of World War II. The German people themselves testify to that. A poor dead guard at a museum testifies to that. Until their attitudes and positions are exterminated, adopting their symbols and roleplaying their people is not appropriate. There is a line that we need not and must not cross.

You make it sound like everyone should treat the whole subject of U-boat warfare as taboo and there shouldn't be games about it. Do you feel that way about IL2 Sturmovik? You can fly Nazi planes in that game. Does it mean it glorifies the Nazi cause? You can even fly Russian planes too...does that glorify their cause? Ask any Pole from that era about what nice guys the Russians were. Is that wrong? Should we ignore that aspect of the war with our sims?

I doubt the majority of us SH3 fans are roleplaying Nazis and sailing for the glory of Adolf Hitler. That argument is specious.

I prefer U-boats and u-boat history. Does that mean I'm glorifying the Nazi cause? No. I just find the struggles, technologies and theatre more interesting than fleet boats.

Do I want realism in my sim? Yes. I like to experience that side of warfare because I am interested in these tactics. Sim game fans are sticklers for realism and necessarily attract rivet counters. Remember when SH4 came out and people were complaining about the belt buckles on your crew being Marine buckles and not Navy buckles? That's the kind of person you're dealing with. To leave out swastikas or ignore U-boat terminology would make it less of a sim.

People play games for the challenge aspect. Just because I prefer the challenges of sailing a U-boat over the challenges of sailing a Fleet boat is no reason to beat me up over it and tell me I'm inappropriate.

[Sailor Steve]

@ Steamwake: I agree it's annoying to see a subject crop up that has been discussed many times before, but it is certainly appropriate for someone to start his own thread about it rather than let the hijacking continue.

I'm of two minds on the subject. I agree about using the symbols in public forums as sigs and such, but at the same time I have used a small waving American flag as well as the flag of my home state, Utah. But those are currently in public use, and not of much concern. And while I agree that the swastika can be offensive, would we be having this discussion over someone using the old Soviet hammer-and-sickle in his sig? I wouldn't complain about that.

I think it's better to avoid giving offense in the name of civility than to demand my right to show what I want, much the same as I've had the discussion concerning annoyingly loud music in the warehouses I've worked in. Sure, you have a right to listen to whatever you want, but aren't you denying me the right to do the same?

As for in-game, I like seeing the historic flag flying from the surface ships, and I've used the mod in the past that puts it on my u-boat. I also like seeing it in the office, since to me it would look odd without the correct flag there. But that's in my own private game, and doesn't affect anyone else.

As for Ducimus' (and apparently RR's) opinions on usage of those emblems being equated with steer manure, that is your opinion and you're welcome to it, but to state that my considering it to be more immersive is the same is a most unwelcome insult. Should I not watch some of my favorite movies (Das Boot, Battle of Britain and The Longest Day) because they also have the swastika in an historic context? Is that also BS?

[ichso]

I don't need any swastikas inside or outside the game. If you can't imagine that you're on a german WW2 sub without a swastika on your flag than that doesn't say much for your imaginative capabilities. (Don't want to offend anybody, didn't read all of the post but still ...)

The Nazis have turned a whole lot of things into mess that nobody can use now without creating the association with holocaust and mass murder, and the poor swastika is now only one of the things we can't anymore .

[Highbury]

Originally Posted by ichso

The Nazis have turned a whole lot of things into mess that nobody can use now without creating the association with holocaust and mass murder, and the poor swastika is now only one of the things we can't anymore .

That is not really true. If you want to show coins of Troy with a swastika nobody will mind. A buddhist statue with a a swastika, go ahead. A pre-WW2 American 45th Division patch with a swastika, no problem at all. Put it on an all red flag within a central white circle, we have an issue. Everyone knows that the swastika has to be taken in context nowadays.

And putting a few things in game that realistically would have had swastikas is, in my opinion, not a lack of imagination. It is just as important to immersion as having all the bolts and rivets in the right place.. ask Tomi_099 about that one. (**disclaimer - I am not saying Tomi supports or likes swastikas in his game, I do not know his opinion. I am just using his mod as an example of nit-picking detail being a good thing for immersion purposes. If you will make sure a bolt or chain is in the right place, why not an emblem?).

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Highbury

If you will make sure a bolt or chain is in the right place, why not an emblem?).

Hit the nail on the head there.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Not this again

Don't tell me your actually suprised

[FIREWALL]

I have a very simple solution that has never been brought up or tried, to settle this once and for all.

[irish1958]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Don't tell me your actually suprised

New players join all the time; they have the same ideas and views that we had who joined two, three or more years ago, and discussed then. I see no problem with the new people bringing up the discussion again.

[Aramike]

You know, I was thinking: are far as the emblem is used on the forums goes, if someone just had a big Nazi flag in their signature, it'd be one thing.

But that's not what we're talking about, are we? We're talking about graphics that incorporate the image in the historical context of the game. I have no problem with that.

Personally, I think too many people are way too fast to take offense these days. Indeed, a certain graphic looked like a recruiting poster for the Kriegsmarine. So what? A reasonable person should put that into context. As such, let's do so.

1: We know this person is not actually recruiting for Nazi mariners.
2: We know this person is participating in a HISTORICAL game which simulates the operations of vessels run by the Nazis.
3: This person has not indicated that he supports anything other than proper historical immersion.

As such, I find nothing wrong with the signature. That person is probably simply appreciating the fact that he's simulating historical situations.

[razark]

I was done with this discussion before the other thread was locked, I don't feel further arguing is going to change anybody's mind. As one of those who kicked this anthill over though, I will repost my last message from the previous thread and leave it at that.

Razark


Previous response:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=156
And I don't have a problem with someone posting a sig picture, in the context of a WWII subsim discussion forum. If they start posting "in character", then I would probably have a bit of a problem. If they start dressing up and role-playing in the real world, they're taking it way too far, unless they are doing so as a re-enactment.

A different opinion. If the swastika bothers you that much, don't look at it, ignore it. Life will go on.

If the Germans wish to ban the symbol, they shall. I believe that making a symbol forbidden only gives it that much more power. They don't control everybody, though, and people are free to do what they wish in other places. If I recall correctly, the Germans do allow the symbols of the Third Reich to be used in artistic and historical context. I guess you could define a sig picture as art.

[Mr.O'Bannon]

As a person who studies history both good and evil, I cannot find offense in dead symbols of past enemies. The third reich has been wiped clean from this earth and totally deconstructed. The fringe groups who use the symbols today are pathetic and are viewed in the same category with rapists and pedarests. There is no power in the swastika except for the lunatic fringe. It will not burn a hole in your head if you look at it too long, and you will not become a jackbooted thug if you use it in its proper historical context in a virtual reality. People need to be able to take things for what they are and not what they aren't.